Spelade
-
Do you want to lose fat without actually cutting calories, exercising, or working hard? Well........you're probably at the wrong place. Sorry! We've heard that cryotherapy can accomplish this, but we're not buying it. However, we do use cryotherapy, and there are good reasons to use cryotherapy if you're into optimizing your performance. Listen in if you want to learn more!
-
Is aging a necessity? Find out what Dr. Sinclair thinks.
-
Jody: Matt and Mike, I’m confused. There are 4 trillion books and articles about what the best diet is. The fasting trial went awesome, but what should my everyday diet be? What is the perfect diet?
Matt: Well, a few years ago I decided that I would no longer discuss 3 things in public: Religion, politics and diet. It’s a no win situation and the easiest way to get into a fight. No one listens. Everyone has set opinions and just gets ticked off when you ticked off when you talk about it. I’m out.
Mike: But we definitely have very strong opinions based on our medical training and the hundreds of books and articles we’ve read. We talk about it non-stop with each other because we don’t care if we piss each other off.
Matt: Oh, yeah, I love talking about. Just not in public. Jody, if you turn off the recording, I’m happy to dive in.
Jody: Ok, sure. Click. It’s off.
Matt: That sounded like you just made a clicking sound with your mouth.
Jody: What?!?!. Come on, you know me. Trust me.
2:00 – 4:00
Matt: Alright, since it’s just us, let’s go. Tell me what you do now.
Jody tells us what he does now and we discuss.
4:20 – 5:30
Matt summarizes: I just made this up. Eat food, mostly plants, not too much. And if you’re great, great grandmother wouldn’t recognize it, then don’t consider it food.
Mike: That sounds familiar.
Jody: Yeah, because he just ripped that directly off of Michael Pollan word for word.
Matt: How dare you accuse me…… Ok, ok. You got me. Problem is that I’ve read hundreds of books and thousands of articles on nutrition and food and I’ve yet to be able to sum it up more succinctly than Michael Pollan did in The Omnivore’s Dilemma more than a decade ago with that statement. So, if you haven’t ready that book, read it. It’s definitely more complicated than that in general, but every other recommendation I could give comes with some caveats and explanation. That’s a great summary. And it gets you at least one pareto law there. You get at least 80% of the benefit.
Michael: Right, but we’ve got more than 2 sentences worth of time here. Our goal is always 2 pareto laws, to get to 96%, so let’s dig in a little and go a bit deeper. As much as you and I obsess over this stuff, I bet there’s a few things we could teach people.
5:30 – 7:00
Jody: Can we start by explaining those two sentences.
Matt: For sure. The beauty of them is that it conveys so much information is so few words, but a bit of clarification is in order. First off, eat food. The next sentence explains that a bit, but a bag of Cheetos and a frankendog you get at the gas station isn’t food. Calories don’t equal food. Your great great grandmother didn’t have snickers bars, lean cuisine meals, and powerade. So, don’t eat it. Your grandmother did have pot roast, venison, carrots, and spinach and onions from her garden. Those are foods.
Jody: So, stay away from 99% of the things in the grocery store.
Matt: Exactly. I was so proud of my kids the other day when a neighbor told me they were at her house and when she offered them a snack my 6 year old said “actually, we only eat things that come out of the ground.” I acted embarrassed and apologized if it seemed rude, but I was totally pumped. My kids absolutely do not eat what I’d like for them to. They beg for ice cream and other junk that other kids get, but I was so proud that maybe it’s getting through to them.
7:00 – 12:30
Mike: And the mostly plants part and not too much is pretty simple. The more micronutrient dense whole vegetables you can consume the better. In general we all are overfed due to the convenience of food in modern society and the social aspect surrounding meals. So, generally, eating low calorie micronutrient dense foods is a generally safe plan, and the food that checks that box are vegetables. We’ve already talked on the podcast about calorie restriction and it’s health and longevity benefits, so go back and listen to that if you haven’t already.
Jody: OK, that’s all good and well, but I’m trying to think what people can actually take away from this and how they can improve their diet. Obviously, following those two rules could have a massive benefit, but let’s get specific. Why don’t you guys walk me through a typical day of food for you and let’s discuss why. I’ve seen you both without your shirts on more than I’d like to and you obviously eat a pretty good diet to have 6 packs at whatever age you are.
Mike: My diet has been pretty variable over the last couple years, something we can get into later, but my general day fits one of two molds: fed or fasting. For the most part I am alternating between eating a normal breakfast, lunch, dinner on fed days and fasting from 6pm to 8pm on fasting days (26 hours of fasting). This is just what I’ve found works for me, but generally I’m interesting in achieving some of the advantages of fasting, without sacrificing too much performance or activity. More on that later.
So on those fed days my breakfast is generally oatmeal, with blueberries, apples and peanut butter, made with almond milk. Plus coffee, lots of coffee. I’ll generally work out in the morning after breakfast, and lunch will be a green smoothie, made with almond milk, about 2 cups of spinach, ½ an apple, a handful of broccoli sprouts, macadamia nuts, and some sort of plant protein power. Sometimes I’ll throw some flax, hemp seeds, or chia seeds in there. As well as some turmeric. The cocktail changes daily and is a nice way to add variety. It’s also a great way to get some raw micronutrient dense foods without cooking or a lot of prep work. Dinner is all over the place, and variable based on the kids, if we’re going out, wtc. In general, I have a salad with whatever I’m eating. That salad usually has some nuts or seeds on it, often has some sliced avocado, and I make all my own dressings out of EVOO or Avocado oil- typically with apple cider vinegar. The remainder of the meal is typically fish, veggie pasta, or grains and veggies. Some of the things I’m really jazzed on are fish tacos- been really dialing in this nectarine, avocado, cabbage and kale slaw that just makes those tacos so delicious. Also, been really into chickpea pasta which I often make with a ton of veggies and a sage and olive oil sauce. You might be able to tell, I’m mostly vegan, with the exception of fish. We can get into that later, as well.
12:30 – 13:30
Jody: What’s up with the broccoli sprouts, is that like alfalfa sprouts.
Mike: Kinda, except they are like the best possible thing you can put in your body.
To list a few this molecule appears boost your immune system, fight cancer, act as an antiinflammatory agent, and even induce apoptosis. (0) It can help prevent CVD, alzheimers, fight polution, and improve insulin resistance. Basically, name a disease and sulflorophane either helps prevent it or make it better. It’s present in broccolli, but about 50x higher concentration in broccolli sprouts. So I grow these things in a jar for 3 days, then freeze them and throw them in a smoothie. Don’t cook them as it can damage the molecule.
Matt: Yeah, broccoli sprouts are a super food for sure, but everything else you eat is total crap.
Mike: well why don’t you share your diet with us first, then we can make fun of each other in sync.
13:30 – 15:00
Matt: Yeah, that’s a good idea. Mike and I are different. We’ve had genetic testing and know that we need different diets based on our SNPs and experimentation.
So, here’s what I ate yesterday:
At 0700 I’m getting kids ready for school and I had coffee. Black coffee. Mold free. no calories from sweetener or cream. The only thing put in it is chaga, which is a mushroom and cinnamon. We could do a whole episode on the potential health benefits of chaga, but this drink has basically zero calories in it, so I get the benefit of a continued fast as I start my day, but I get all the incredible antioxidant and super food beneifts of coffee, caffeine, chaga, and cinnamon.
Jody: Can you dig into that before you move along? I thought we needed to cut back on coffee.
Matt: Well, sure if you want to live a shorter, more crappy life. The benefits of coffee are clear.
15:00 – 16:00
Mike:
Truth, the data on coffee is in, and in my opinion, it’s clear there are numerious health benefits of coffee. To rattle some of those off:
Coffee makes you not die: Seriously in a 2008 study in Annals of Internal Med found was an inverse relationship with coffee consuption and CVD. Basically the more coffee people drink the less CVD related mortality. (1) Coffee makes you smarter: it inhibits adenosine and basically functions as a stimulant making you happier and allowing you to think faster. (2) It’s full of nutrients and antioxidants like manganesse, niacin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid. It helps detox your liver: reducing mortality from liver cirrhosis and liver cancer (3) Helps fight off alzheimer's disease (4)Jody: Sweet , what about cinnamon and that chaga deal?
Mike: Yeah Cinnamon is one of those things with virtually no downside. It has anti-inflammatory effects (5), reduces heart disease risk through lowering fasting glucose levels and LDL concentration (6), and to top it all off, it’s loaded with antioxidants.
Jody: So cinnamon is basically like a superfood that everyone should be taking? Matt, what about that weird mushroom thing you were talking about?
16:00 – 17:00
Matt: Well, first off, it’s a super cool looking mushroom that looks like a big clump of dark dirt or bark growing on birch trees in the northern hemisphere. I would love to say I harvest it like I do my other mushrooms, but I just buy it online. I live too far south.
It has tons of vitamins an minterals. B comple, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, selenium, manganese, copper, potassium, rubidium (Jody, I know you’re always looking for good sources of rubidium), iron, and others. It’s an antioxidant, can reduce LDL, there’s some research that it slows cancer growth, has triterpines, which are good for you (either google that or just trust me), supports the immune system by regulating production of cytokines, and several other benefits as well. It’s a really cool food.
So, that’s my breakfast
17:00 – 20:00
Jody: Then lunch
Matt: OK, so sometimes I eat lunch and sometimes I just continue fasting with more coffee. If I continue fasting to really get my time restricted window down, I’ll usually have some coffee with MCT oil in it. That MCT being converted to ketones and caffeine gives the metal boost that most people want in the afternoon without the crappy 5 hour energy or something that has aspartame or other harmful chemicals in it. And if I have some important mental or deep work to do, then I’ll usually add a packet of lion’s mane mushroom coffee. It’s a nootropic that increases neurogenic growth factor, and really gives an amazing 1, 2, 3 punch with the caffeine, ketones, and lion’s mane without the sluggishness of food and a big lunch. I get really productive work done.
Jody: Ok so skipping one meal, breakfast, is probably a bit of a stretch for most people already, and we’ve talked on the podcast before about the benefits of time restricted eating, but skipping both breakfast and lunch is a bit much. What if you do eat lunch.
20:00 – 21;20
Mike: Well, really quickly. Just in case someone missed it, there are big benefits to time restricted eating, or as some people call it, intermittent fasting. They’ve done rat studies where they fed them the exact same amount of calories each day, but when they did it in a smaller feeding window they did so much better metabolically. It seems to lead to more energy, better insulin sensitivity, more mental clarity, and a lot of other benefits. I’m with Matt in trying to get that feeding window down as small as possible. 8 hours if I can, or even 4 hours if possible. Only eating from 2-6pm is my ideal goal, but as active as we are, it’s hard to get enough calories in such a short window.
21:20 – 22:00
Matt: Yeah, exactly. So, I usually break my fast right after I workout. So, occasionally I will eat in the AM, but only if I’ve earned those calories. Otherwise, you asked about my lunch. My classic go to lunch is 16 ounces of bone broth, which I make big batches of at home every couple of weeks and some almonds or walnuts with it. I feel like a million bucks when I get that really nice shot of healthy fats and protein, and all the nutrient dense goodness that is bone broth and true nuts.
Jody: What do you mean true nuts.
Matt: I mean not peanuts. They’re a legume, and I don’t count the as a healthy food for me. Too inflammatory.
22:00 – 23:00
Mike: Here’s one place where Matt and I differ. I eat peanuts daily, as peanut butter to the tune of 2-4 tablespoons. And my CRP and inflammatory markers are nonexistent. I eat tons of other legumes as well, basically have to if your vegan. Now that doesn’t mean everyone will tolerate it as well, you‘re going to have to experiment yourself, or get your gut microbiome tested to really know if your sensitive to that stuff. If there is anything to really worry about with peanuts, it’s probably their likelihood of containing aflatoxins. Peanuts grow underground, and have a tendency to be colonized with aspergillus which is a source of aflatoxins, which may be a carcinogenic compound to the liver and raise the risk of liver cancer.
23:00 – 24:50
Jody: Ok ok, you guys play nice. Matt, What about the whole plants thing you mentioned earlier you haven’t mentioned a plant all day in your diet yet?
Matt: Well, first off, where do you think coffee, chaga, cinnamon, and nuts come from. Those animals? Nope. And if I don’t have my bone broth with me, then I focus on the same thing: Nutrient density and healthy fats. So, a huge salad or giant bowl of vegetables with olive oil and salt and pepper is perfect for me.
Jody: What about protein? I know you workout a lot. Shouldn’t we be focused on protein?
Matt: Absolutely not. Maybe if you’re a developing country. But look, the vast majority of Americans get way too much protein. Protein is a dirty fuel. You should get just enough for building muscle and repairing your body, but it shouldn’t be your source of fuel. It has too many problems associated with it. You, I, and nearly everyone listening to this probably gets plenty of protein unless they’re a vegan, in which case they should think about protein. But for an omnivore, it’s just not near the top of what you should be concerned with.
24:50 – 27:30
Mike: I think a good rule of thumb is 1 gm of protein for every kg of body weight. That's the max you need, even if you’re an athlete. Protein got way over hyped in response to the low carb fad diets as an alternative macronutrient to carbs and fats (which most people still thought were bad for you). In general, I’d say worry way more about the quality of the food you are putting in you and forget about the macronutrient profile.
Jody: You keep saying macronutrients, what are you talking about.
Mike: Macronutrient just means the % of calories coming from proteins, carbs, and fats. I don’t think the numbers matter, unless you are going for nutritional ketosis. And the %’s will vary vastly from one healthy diet to the next, take mine and Matts for example. I eat about 50% carbs, 40% fat, and 10 % protein. I bet matt is closer to 10% carbs, 70% fat, and 20% protein. But generally, we are both eating healthy, and in ways optimized for our own performance and body type.
Jody: Got it, ok Matt, what about dinner?
27:30 – 28:50
Matt and Mike and Jody discuss why personalized diets are so important and their experience with ketogenic diet and why it worked great for Matt, but not for Mike when they tried it.
28:50 – 31:00
Matt: Same goal. Super nutrient dense food that comes from whole food sources, mainly plants. My go to is an instapot concoction I make. I combine vegetables from my garden and farm. What is ripe and in season. This is very important. I think there’s a very important nutrient density difference in local foods that you eat with the rhythms of the seasons compared to foods flown from around the world after being picked before their ripe and then gassed to make them ripen. Big difference. So, I combine that with wild and cultivated mushrooms.
Jody: Oh, yeah, shrooms.
Matt: Not those shrooms. These are magic, but not psychoactive. Magic because of their nutrient density. I inoculate logs and grow golden oyster, shiitake, lion’s mane, and a lot of other species at my farm, and we also forage and find tons of milky’s, chicken of the woods, maitake, chanterelles, morels, boletes, and so many amazingly nutritious and delicious wild foods. Now, talk about nutrient density. Nothing is higher on my list than wild foraged mushrooms.
And then I add the most nutrient dense protein and fat source I know, which is bone broth and organ meats. Yesterday for me that was lamb liver and heart that I got from my close friend who raises sheep in a truly beautiful and humane way on pasture their entire life.
Jody: Hold up. Did you just say lamb heart.
Matt: Yes. Don’t be like my 6 year old daughter who just says “oooh”. It’s one of my biggest pet peaves about our society that we’ve been trained culturally to only eat the least nutritious part of the animal, the muscle. It’s crazy, and honestly kind of boring if you ask me. You get so much more rich nutrition from the organs, and I find it a little unethical really. At my restaurant we’ve been trying to teach guests that “we don’t raise filets”. We raise cattle. No one grows a lamb chop. We birth, care for, and raise sheep. The entire animal. We should respect the animal by consuming as much as possible, and we should respect ourselves and our bodies by feeding them the most nutritious parts.
Jody: OK, pretty sure you lost some people, but basically, bone broth, locally raised vegetables, wild foraged mushrooms, and organ meats. Anything else.
31:00 – 32:00
Matt: Well, that’s pretty close to the perfect meal for me. If you want my true and total weirdness to come out, then I will confess that my end goal is to get to the point where all of those things I’ve planted, raised, and killed myself. To me, that’s the ultimate meal and that’s why I have a farm and am trying to learn to hunt and learn traditional skills like butchery. Is that weird? Absolutely. And I’m not a kill joy that’s going to point out the inhumanity of feed lots when someone at my table orders a traditional filet. But there’s something about being that connected to my food that gets me super jazzed. And obviously, I’m in KY and am never going to be able to provide my own salt, spices, or some things. But the closer to this ideal I can get the better.
Jody: alright…….so, basically you want to go back in time thousands of years and throw away all the progress we’ve made with agriculture, technology, the division of labor, and our ability to spend our time doing other productive things than just growing, hunting, and preparing food.
32:00 – 33:10
Matt: Well, no. Ok, kind of. I mean, I’m all in favor of appropriate technology for making our lives better. But the key word is appropriate, which we don’t have time to unpack. I just want to be more connected to my food. What I just described is obviously not for many people, but the nutrient dense part I totally stand by. You can do all of that with food you buy from the store or your farmer’s market. No need to get all crazy intense like I do.
Jody: So…...what’s that diet called? Is that paleo, keto, what?
Matt: Well, I don’t think it’s got a label. It’s definitely pretty close to those things. You could definitely call it paleo, but it’s a bit more than that. And it’s definitely not keto with all the wild mushrooms and vegetables, which technically have too many carbs to truly be in ketosis. Trust me, I’ve tested by BHB levels with pretty much every variation of this.
Jody: BHB levels?
33:10 – 34:45
Matt: Ketones.Jody: Right. That’s why I thought you were keto.
Matt: Well, I am, sometimes. I do occasionally try to go hard into ketosis, at which time I’ll cut out the carbs. There are major benefits to ketones and the diet that leads to them. Autophage and similar benefits as fasting. But I cycle this, as I think there are also tremendous benefits to all the plants that I have to cut out to start truly producing a lot of ketones.
Jody: So, how often to cycle and how do you choose?
Matt: Well, I’m always a fan of trying to go all ancestral and wild as possible and let nature be the guide when I can. So, what I mean by that is that I will eat tons of the wild mushrooms when they’re in season. I eat asparagus in the spring when they’re ready to harvest. And I eat vegetables in the summer and fall when they’re ripe and we’re harvesting in my area. In the winter is usually when I try to eat keto more. Just like people 300 years ago living in Kentucky would have much less carbs and fresh veggies available in the winter, that’s when it makes sense for me to live on meat and fat and be more often in ketosis. I think the seasons and what is available locally is the best guide for me personally as to when I’ll eat keto, fast, or focus on super nutrient dense plants. A plant that I would the crap out of when it’s in season I’ll avoid when it’s not.
Jody: And I assume you’ll link to all the scientific articles in the show notes.
34:45 – 35:50
Matt: Oh, for sure. And just off the top of my head I can count…...upwards of…...zero articles to backup my thought that this is the perfect diet for me.
Mike: Ok, that’s helpful.
Matt: I mean, seriously, we could do a whole episode on the benefits of a ketogenic diet. I think that’s been talked about ad nauseum. The affects on insulin sensitivity, longevity, mental acuity, etc. Very similar to the data on fasting. We could definitely link that that. And we could provide tons and tons of data on the benefits of a plant based diet in general when we’re talking about whole plants, especially leafy greens, broccoli, and vegetables with super high nutrient density and super food components. Antioxidants, phytonutrients, blah, blah, blah. Eat your veggies. The problem is that I believe very strongly in all 3 of those things, so this method of cycling according to nature makes the most sense in my mind when it comes to practically applying this knowledge.
Jody: Mike, you do the same? Do you cycle in and out of ketosis.
35:50 – 38:30
Mike: Nope. I mean, we can all agree to cut out sugar, processed foods, and things like that, but it turns out that the perfect diet for you isn’t the perfect diet for me because I’m a different person with different genetics. I’m stoked for you, Matt, that you’ve had such a great experience with keto. And from what I can tell, it seems like your experience is the majority. When you look at the data out there, people on nutritional ketosis diets seem to have overall improvements in cholesterol, which suggests improved CV risk, improved insulin sensitivity, which leads to less DM2, and a lot even feel more fresh, clear headed, and even perform better- especially as endurance activities. Unfortunately, there is a minority of people, like me, who have a different experience.
About 1.5 years ago I tried nutritional ketosis. Actually I did it as a fat kid when I was 18 or so, but didn’t know enough to get labs checked. That lasted about 4 months, and I lost a ton of weight and put it all back on when I went back to carbs.
But last year, early 2017, I gave nutritional ketosis another go, with the goal of improving my cholesterol and insulin sensitivity - for my overall CVD risk. I’ve always had bad cholesterol, despite generally eating a clean diet and exercising regularly. So I went into ketosis. I ate healthy, a lot like the stuff you are eating Matt, just les carbs. It took me about
-
Yeah, yeah, we know.......you've heard of fasting for health. Intermittent fasting, time restricted eating, prolonged fasting, FMD, etc. We get a lot of questions on this, though, so we wanted to have Dr. Mike Stone on to discuss. Dr. Stone probably does more fasting than anyone we know and he has a deep knowledge of the medical literature around it. Send us your questions on fasting and we'll follow up with Dr. Stone for a round 2.
-
Jody wants to talk about Saunas
[0:01:02-0:01:57]"Give me a fever, and I can cure the world." quote by a famous really old doctor (Hippocrates). We've known Sauna is good for you for a long time. Ancient people have been using forever, and it's extremely popular in places like Finland.
[0:02:01-0:02:44]
Matt and Mike discuss how your pulse can go up by about 30% in the sauna and it's really good for your heart.
They describe THIS JAMA study of 2300 men that shows those that visited the sauna 4-7 times a week were over 60% less likely to experience sudden cardiac death and were 50% less likely to die from cardiovascular disease than those who only visited a sauna once a week.
There's a dose dependent response as well.
[0:02:58-0:03:57]
Matt talks about a fruit fly study that increased their lifespan on average by about 5%. That equates to 4 years for a person......but you can't apply to a person. Interesting data, though.
Sitting in a Sauna can burn about 300 calories per session. You're exercising while sitting there.
[0:03:58-0:04:54]
Jody says he read on the internet that a doctor says you can't detox through sauna use since the kidneys and liver are what detoxes.
Matt goes off on this topic refuting that claim and telling why he's definitely not impressed by a claim just because "a doctor" says it. Curiosity and the desire to continue learning are more important than credentials.
[0:06:58-0:07:53]
Matt and Mike discuss the studies showing that multiple heavy metals like BPA and phthalates have been found in sweat, suggesting that you can sweat them out. There is some controversy, but we think that you can detox from sweating in a sauna, and the downsides are so low that it's worth trying. Worst case scenario, you're getting some good relaxation.
[0:07:58-0:08:54]
Matt and Mike discuss the Finnish study a little more and how it decreased the risk for Alzheimer's by 65%, which could be partly from relaxation, but probably more from the microvascular effects of the increased heart rate and hyperthermic conditioning.
[0:08:58-0:09:57]
Mike discusses the temperatures you get to in sauna after Jody asks how high the temperature needs to be. Typically, infrared saunas should be 120-140F (49-60C) while traditional saunas must be above 150F (65.5C) to be effective. I would say make it as hot as you can stand it. You want it to be uncomfortable enough so that your body makes the proper responses.
[0:09:58-0:10:46]
Mike and Matt talk about how hot exactly to get ( "if your skin is melting......that's too hot"). They describe how each of the different sauna types work to heat you up. Infrared saunas work by directing infrared rays at your body and penetrating the tissues, just like the sun. xcept there aren't any UV rays, which are the potentially harmful part of sunlight. And dry saunas work by heating up the air, which heats up your body. So, the air temperature in an infrared sauna doesn't need to be as hot to work. It works more directly on your body. This means it also uses about 1/3rd of the energy of a dry sauna.
0:10:58-0:12:15
Matt talks about how sauna affects insulin sensitivity, which affects muscle growth, but also is really nice to know if you're diabetic. Could be very beneficial for diabetic patients.
It also increases HGH. Studies ( H R and H R ) have shown that growth hormone levels more than doubled after 2 20-minute sauna visits at 176F and levels hopped up 5 times with 2 15 minutes sessions at 212F! 212, is definitely too hot, though. Don't do that!
12:58 - 14:30
These studies on HGH were dose dependent. Two 1 hours sessions increased HGH levels by 16 times. We're not going to go into the pathway of growth hormone mediating IGF-1, activation of m-tor leading to protein synthesis and Fox o activation inhibiting protein degradation. Everyone knows that basically HGH makes you swole. You look better, are stronger, and feel better with more growth hormone.
I know guys who are paying good money for HGH supplements, when it looks like they could just make themselves super hot and relax in a sauna without the risks associated with pills and injections. Way safer, cheaper, and easier. Basically get super hot by getting super hot. 'r get super hot to get super hot.
14:30 - 16:00
Along with helping gain muscle, the heat can also help retain muscle. A study in rodents showed that the heat-acclimated group retained 30% more muscle that the control group. You're body is always either building muscle or breaking it down. Protein synthesis or protein degradation. Saunas and heat stress induce production of heat shock proteins, which reduces protein degradation. So, not only does does it increase protein synthesis by increasing growth hormone like we talked about, but it stops the degradation. There was a really cool study where they took rats, immobilized their leg, like if you got a cast, then when they remobilized and let them work the leg again and they found 30% more muscle growth when using sauna. Applicable to someone who has an injury and wants to recover more quickly.
16:00 - 17:00
Matt discusses the applicability and how it applies to humans and makes sense. It makes sense from a simplistic standpoint as well. ven while still immobilized you can sauna and even if you can't move the extremity you get the exercise simulation benefits like we talked about earlier with increased heart rate and you get the heat shock proteins, growth hormone, increased blood flow to the leg, etc.
It's not just muscles, though. When Matt was training for ironmans, he didn't really want to be carrying around extra muscles for that long of a race, which was like 12 hours for someone super slow like him. And he was obviously much more concerned with endurance. He remembers Ironman Louisville one year where the temperatures and humidity were in the 90's and there was just carnage along the race course. If only these racers had known that a few sessions of hanging out in a sauna could dramatically affect their endurance and hyperthermic conditioning and heat tolerance in general.
17:00 - 20:00They discuss the study that shows increased endurance H R . It showed that a 30 minute sauna session 2 times per week for 3 weeks after workout increased time to exhaustion by 32%. Now, that's a crazy number, and I don't want you thinking that means you can decrease your 5k time by 32%. The way they did the study they got this number, but in real terms what it equates to is about a 2% improvement in a 5k, which honestly is still massive. If your PR is 20min for a 5k, then this suggests this very simple 2 wk intervention could decrease that time to 19:36. If you're a runner you realize how much intense training would have to be done to decrease your PR by 24s. This is incredible. Honestly, it's so incredible, I had a hard time believing it initially, especially since this was only done in 6 athletes. However, it's more believable because they actually showed the physiologic mechanism of why. Blood plasma volume increased by 7.1%. RBCs and total volume were also increased. So, you kind of get the blood doping effects of P', which you've probably heard about from tour de france riders, without injecting and actually cheating. It's just 'like' cheating, but completely legal. I love anything that basically makes you a better human to the same level as cheating without the risks. That's not the only mechanism, though. It's been proven that muscle glycogen use is decreased, meaning longer time until you hit the wall, less lactate accumulation, and better thermoregulatory control, basically you sweat more and sooner. In the end, if you're trying to get faster or more endurance, then this is totally worth doing.
20:00 - 24:40Matt discusses the studies on depression. Studies have shown that sauna use releases dynorphins (the opposite of endorphins) which are what create feelings of discomfort. An increase in dynorphins actually increases endorphin receptors. Your body is kind of trying to compensate is one way to look at this.
Specifically, dynorphins bind to kappa opioid receptors and upregulate mu opioid receptors. The point is, you don't just feel good right afterwards, but the increase receptors for endorphins mean you're more sensitive to the great feeling of endorphins later as well. You're primed to be pumped and happy.
There was a pretty amazing study in JAMA Psychiatry. A randomized, placebo controlled trial looking at this showed that 1 session significantly decreased depressive symptoms, and the really cool thing is that it persisted 6 wks. Maybe longer, but that's when they quit tracking. Now, I TOTALLY didn't believe this when I first read the headline. Absolutely no way that one session of sauna decreased depressive symptoms for at least 6 weeks, maybe longer. Didn't pass the sniff test, and as a doctor and science geek I was mad at JAMA for publishing this crap and I dug into the article with an angry disposition. So, I was pretty shocked after I read it. It's not a huge study. But it's really well done, and I owed the authors and JAMA a mental apology. My first thought was that 'well, you can't blind this stuff. People know they're getting the intervention. It's all placebo. But they did a pretty good job. First, they whittled it down from over 300 to about 30 participants and specifically eliminated folks who seemed to be good placebo responders. Then they did apply some heat, just not intervention heat to the control subjects and about 3/4ths of the controls thought they had gotten the intervention afterwards, so those controls should have a placebo response if that was the case, making the results less significant. But there was still a really significant result. I'm totally impressed.
24:40 - 27:30
Mike discusses how Sauna can make you more pretty, boost your immune system, makes you smarter, and makes you prettier.
Now remember, you're not getting the UV rays which age skin with the infrared saunas. So, don't confuse this as being the same as sunlight. It seems from research on this, and just makes sense, that you can increase the rate that you turn over skin cells and get rid of dead cells by sweating. You also clear pores of dirt and bacteria and flush out wastes. AND you increase capillary circulation. So, you should get a more healthful, young looking glow, which I can tell by your unkempt beard is super important to you.
One study showed that you can potentially decrease your colds by 30% by using a sauna. Not a huge study, though, with 50 people over 6 months, but we think we have a mechanism, which makes it more plausible. That mechanism is by increasing WBC's, lymphocytes, neutrophils, and basophils, which suggests a stimulated immune system. This was in a 2013 study in the Journal of Human Kinetics.
As for sleeping better, it makes sense, but not very much science on this one.
It makes you smarter: It's been shown to increase BDNF, which increases neurogenesis and enhances learning, long term memory, and neuronal plasticity. This BDNF increase is also one of the reasons that ketones from a ketogenic diet make you more mentally sharp and potentially helps with neurodegenerative disorders, and also part of the reason exercise makes you smarter. It's good stuff. A really big reason to do sauna. Probably enough in and of itself if none of the other benefits applied.
27:30 - 31:30
Matt and Mike discuss what type of sauna they recommend:
Well, we have absolutely no affiliation with any type of sauna company but we have opinions. We already talked about the differences. Your core body temperature, which is what is going to give you the benefits we've talked about should get just as high with either. The air temperature will be lower in the infrared, but you should get a similar internal temperature rise. Infrared are traditionally smaller, take less energy, and pose less of a fire hazard, so I think that's why they tend to be more popular now.
That, and the fact that they take less time to heat. About 15 minutes compared to 30-40 minutes with traditional. And even before they're fully heated up, you're still getting benefit from the infrared rays penetrating your body and heating you up. If 140 degrees combined with the infrared penetration isn't enough for you, there's a great hack for increasing the temperature even higher that Ben Greenfield describes really well. We'll link to his site in the show notes. In fact, if you really want to learn more about this after listening to this and digging into the articles we'll link to both Ben and Rhonda Patrick, who have discussed sauna use and hyperthermic conditioning a lot on their sites and podcasts. A lot of my initial knowledge I gleaned about hyperthermic conditioning came from hearing them talk about it and then digging into the literature once they peaked my interest.
In general, either are fine. It kind of depends on your preferences. I would caution you very strongly against using wet steam rooms, though. It's fine at your house if you're controlling the water source, but do not use them in gyms or hotels where you don't know where the water is coming from. Normal tap water has chlorine in it that is released into the air when you evaporate the water and you're inhaling that or any other impurities in the water.
Well, that goes for traditional saunas as well. The overheating phone incident I mentioned earlier was in a sauna in an airbnb we rented. And I knew they had a sauna, so on the way there I stopped and bought a gallon of distilled water that I could use on the rocks when I needed to. With all the benefits of hyperthermic conditioning, it would be a shame to negate all those by inhaling chlorine gas.
31:30 - 32:30
Matt and Mike discuss MFs briefly:
So, MFs probably deserve their own podcast, which we'll do. But if you google around before you listen to us talk about it on the podcast and decide that they are harmful enough to worry about, then yes, there are low and zero MF products out there. Personally, I am very concerned about them and think we're harmed way more than we realize by MF's, which by the way Jody, stand for electromagnetic fields. I hate to be alarmist, but I'm definitely doing everything I can to mitigate their risks to myself and my family. The infrared sauna I bought is a zero MF version that definitely costs more, but I thought it was worth it. You can find plenty of good options for that.
32:30 - 36:50
Matt and Mike discuss how long you should stay in:
Well, it depends on your goals and how much time you have. First off, don't be stupid and fall asleep in one for hours at a time. That's called cooking, not suana'ing. Most of the protocols in the studies we talked about are for 20-30 minutes, but you can definitely go longer.
The depression study got their participants up to a pretty high core body temperature for about an hour. So, if you're using this to clinically treat something like depression then maybe longer than if you're doing it just to relax or increase endurance or muscle growth. 'f course, in most studies there was a dose dependent effect. Remember the HGH study and the massive increase with higher temperatures and longer duration. Similar to high intensity exercise, fasting, and just about anything else you do for performance optimization, there is a higher risk for badness as you push the envelope. Longer durations mean you definitely need to be more cognizant about how much fluid you drink, replacing your electrolytes, etc. If you really want to get crazy, which sometimes I do, you can workout in the sauna. Be careful, though. Recently I did a high intensity workout consisting of 50 lb 1 arm kettlebell swings, burpees, and goblet squats in a full on infrared sauna and I nearly killed myself. Went way deep into a pain hole that I could not climb out of for a few days. Similar to a feeling I had one time when I got lost on a long run without water in 100 degree heat. Days of recovery.
You have to be careful as you're working your way up to more intense sauna. Be careful as you start.
36:50 - 38:30
Let's test this:
Jody, you don't have a sauna, but they do have an infrared sauna at the castle that you can use at least a few times per week. So, let's do this. Try to use it at least 3-4 times per week for 2 months for a full hour. Let's go hard with this. If you workout beforehand, then limit it to 40 minutes, and if you workout in the sauna, then limit it to 20-30 minutes. Don't fry yourself. Let's get your blood drawn and measure as much as we can and also have you do some exercise tolerance tests. We'll do a modified bruce protocol on the treadmill and a test of max deadlifts at 10 reps and overhead press at 10 reps before and after. We'll also measure your body composition and weight. Lean muscle mass and body fat percentage. I want to get a good overall view of your health before and after. Try not to workout more or change your diet in any way, though. This is obviously completely unscientific, but we'll control as much as we can.
We're tempted to have you do some stuff around measuring overall well-being, happiness, and sleep as well, but that seems too complicated and too prone to placebo anyway. The other stuff can definitely be influenced by placebo, but probably not quite as much as subjective scores. Actually, sleep tracking would be cool as well since you can passively measure that with an aura ring. Add that to the list.
38:30 - end
Matt describes some experiments he's been doing in the shower, sauna, and working out in the sauna. He can increase his core temperature to 101.1 in the shower, but all the way up to 102.2 with an intense workout in the sauna. His core temperature does not increase just sitting in the sauna. This is probably due to his thermoregulatory system being pretty efficient in general.
