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During incoming NIH secretary Dr. Jay Bhattacharya's confirmation hearing this week, he vowed to "establish a culture of respect for free speech in science & scientific dissent at the NIH"; he went on to call dissent "the very essence of science". Dr. Bhattacharya has been one of the most outspoken critics of what he perceives to be censorship and the deliberate muzzling of scientists during Covid.
Today, we dive into the complex and contentious issue of censorship—one of the biggest drivers of mistrust in public health. Was it justified for the government to pressure social media companies to remove posts about COVID-19 and vaccines that they deemed dangerous misinformation? Or did that cross a line into stifling free speech?
today, with the Trump administration now overseeing public health, issuing new executive orders aimed at limiting DEI programs, language and studies throughout the federal government.
Do these actions cross the line into censoring science? Why are we caught in a battle between science and free speech, and how did we get here? And how do we move forward?
To help explore these questions, we’re joined by two individuals from very different backgrounds who emerged as important voices during the pandemic: Wilk Wilkinson, a trucking company manager in Central Minnesota and host of the Derate The Hate podcast who has joined forces with scientists such as Dr Francis Collins and Dr Jay Bhattacharya on various topics; and Dr. Maciej Boni, a biology professor at Temple University and infectious disease epidemiologist who worked on the front lines of various outbreaks, from swine flu, bird flu to Covid-19.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guests:
Wilk Wilkinson, Braver Angels leader; Host of Derate the Hate podcast; manager of trucking operations
Dr. Maciej Boni, professor of biology at Temple University; infectious disease epidemiologist
Sources:
Mark Zuckerberg’s letter to Rep. Jim Jordan
https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/PDFFiles/Mark-Zuckerberg-Letter-on-Govt-Censorship.pdf
Rep. Jim Jordan’s investigation into Biden’s “Censorship Scheme”
https://judiciary.house.gov/media/in-the-news/jim-jordan-launches-misinformation-investigation-uncover-biden-censorship-scheme
Free speech and content moderation
https://www.newsweek.com/covid-censorship-facebook-stretched-first-amendment-free-speech-lawyers-1945595
Supreme Court: Murthy v. Missouri
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/whats-stake-us-supreme-court-case-misinformation
Supreme Court: Missouri v. Biden
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-censorship-proved-to-be-deadly-social-media-government-pandemic-health-697c32c4
Biden & Social Media
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/us/politics/biden-facebook-social-media-covid.html
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With measles cases spreading and reports of the first measles death in 10 years, all eyes are on the new health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr, in what is his first real public health test. He said the measles outbreaks were not unusual. According to the CDC and Your Local Epidemiologist newsletter, 2025 has already passed 8 out of the last 15 years in annual counts of measles.
On today's episode: In 2024, after Kennedy rose to join Donald Trump, what we got was a powerful union, between MAGA and MAHA. When Kennedy dropped his independent bid for the White House and endorsed Donald J. Trump, his MAHA supporters rallied behind the Republican candidate.
This merger unites two groups that, at first glance, seem to have little in common. One is a populist movement, championing the working American who feels overlooked and dismissed by the elites. The other is a coalition of wellness enthusiasts and vaccine skeptics, critics of big business, and those wary of pharma’s influence over health policy and advocates of health freedom, coming together in common cause.
But what happens when the realpolitik of governing kicks in, with its focus on priorities, compromises, and funding? Will MAGA rally behind MAHA’s causes, especially if they call for more business regulations, farming restrictions, and higher health standards? Is MAHA wise to trust MAGA? Journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon, author, journalist, and vocal Trump supporter, joins the discussion, with a take on all of this that you won't want to miss.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guest:
Batya Ungar-Sargon, columnist The Free Press, author Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women
Sources:
RFK and Donald Trump’s alliance
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/09/rfk-trump-health-maga/680011/
The anti-vaccine movement
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9981160/
MAHA’s agenda
https://thehill.com/newsletters/health-care/5144511-rfk-kennedy-maha-era-begins/
What is MAHA?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/what-is-maha-health-wellness-movement-rfk-jr-policies.html
MAHA’s legislative goals
https://www.axios.com/2024/11/14/maha-movement-federal-health-agencies
Recent history of the vaccine skeptical movement
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/the-anti-vax-movement-hustl/
The MAHA Commission
https://www.axios.com/2025/02/13/trump-maha-commission-rfk-chronic-illness
Republicans and Democrats Views on Vaccines
https://news.gallup.com/poll/648308/far-fewer-regard-childhood-vaccinations-important.aspx
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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This week, in his first speech addressing the Department of Health and Human Services as its new chief, RFK Jr. said the path to the country earning back trust was through transparency.
As Kennedy was saying these words to a packed audience, Texas was clocking in more measles cases, in what is turning out to be its worst measles outbreak in 30 years. With rising mistrust in public health and declining vaccination rates, measles - a disease we eradicated over 20 years ago is making a comeback, worrying many in public health.
But two MAHA moms in their fifties we heard from on today's episode ask a question we are increasingly hearing more often these days: what's the big deal about measles? Both these moms got it as children and recovered, missed a few days of school and then had lifelong immunity. Is public health over reacting? They point to a classic Brady Bunch episode where the kids all catch measles, reflecting how the virus was once considered a rite of passage, a harmless childhood illness. If anything, doesn't getting a disease strengthen the immune system?
Before the vaccine, measles claimed the lives of 500 children every year and hospitalized tens of thousands more, and sometimes led to severe complications in kids many years after they got sick.
But now that we have a vaccine, what’s the real risk of measles today? And why is the measles vaccine -- while still popular among the vast majority of this country -- losing the trust of a small but growing group of Americans? In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Paul Offit, a leading expert on childhood vaccines, to explore the questions surrounding measles and dig into the facts about pharmaceutical funding while aiming to model a more constructive conversation.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guests:
Yesenia Muhammad, Atlanta, MAHA Mom
Melinda Hicks, Atlanta, MAHA Mom
Dr. Paul Offit, pediatrician, infectious disease and vaccine specialist
Sources:
States looking to create exemptions for public school vaccine mandates:
https://apnews.com/article/vaccines-whooping-cough-rfk-measles-exemptions-covid-27dae6f61505ef1953ca869a78c71942
Public Attitudes on the MMR vaccine:
https://www.kff.org/health-information-and-trust/press-release/poll-trust-in-public-health-agencies-and-vaccines-falls-amid-republican-skepticism/#:~:text=Among%20parents%2C%20about%20seven%20in,the%20benefits%20
CDC numbers on risk from Measles
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/signs-symptoms/?CDC_AAref_Val=https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html#Measles compromises immune memory
Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens
Clinical Trial data on MMR:
[Simultaneous administration at different dosages of attenuated live virus vaccines against measles, mumps and rubella].
Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vac
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A major source of mistrust in public health today is the belief that you can't sue a vaccine manufacturer if you suffer an adverse reaction. Many ask: Why should I trust vaccines if I can't hold vaccine makers accountable? For them, it sounds un-American, heavily biased toward Big Pharma, and proof that the system is rigged. It is something that the incoming health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has spoken about often.
But is it true?
In this episode, we sit down with Dorit Reiss, a legal scholar specializing in vaccines and the law, to separate fact from fiction. We dive into why vaccine makers were ever granted any shield from liability to begin with. And we look at where America ultimately landed on this issue, by unpacking the facts and tracing the history. What we found surprised us.
We asked: what recourse do people have if they experience a rare side effect and want accountability from a vaccine maker? What avenues exist today and do they work? Is our understandable desire to have available vaccines -- which have saved hundreds of millions of lives -- allowing room for a fair process to hold vaccine makers accountable for adverse reactions?
Plus, as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. now becomes the new leader of the Department of Health and Human Services, what potential changes could he bring to the vaccine landscape?
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guest:
Dorit Reiss, Professor of Law, University of California Law San Francisco; vaccine law specialist
Sources:
GAO report 2024 on how Covid vaccine compensation program is fairing
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-107368
New York Times from November 1986 on Reagan
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/us/reagan-signs-bill-on-drug-exports-and-payment-for-vaccine-injuries.html
Paul Offit on vaccine compensation historyhttps://pauloffit.substack.com/p/a-dangerous-time-for-americas-children-3bb
Washington Post 1987https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/03/06/administration-attacks-vaccine-law/a12c8353-e075-443c-b026-9a6ea00ff61b/
Time Magazine 2015
https://time.com/3995062/vaccine-injury-court-truth/
Newsweek 2023
https://www.newsweek.com/surge-vaccine-lawsuits-forces-biden-admin-hire-more-attorneys-1843385Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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With the CIA now siding with the "lab leak" theory, President Trump reportedly considering cuts to “risky” virus research, Republican Senator Rand Paul firing off subpoenas, and President Biden’s pre-emptive pardon of Dr. Anthony Fauci, the fierce debate over COVID’s origins is only intensifying. And while many believe we’re no closer to an answer, the fight itself is deepening our national crisis of trust in science.
In this episode, we sit down with David Wallace-Wells, science columnist for The New York Times who has written extensively about the origins of Covid, and Robert F. Garry, a leading virologist who found himself at the center of this storm after publishing a paper on COVID’s origins and being hauled in front of Congress.
We explore how what began as a scientific question spiraled into a full-blown political battle, fueling a growing mistrust in science five years after COVID emerged.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guests:
David Wallace Wells, science columnist, New York Times; author, The Uninhabitable Earth
Robert Garry, virologist; professor of microbiology/immunology/assistant dean, Tulane University School of Medicine
Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/opinion/covid-lab-leak-theory.html
https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/45389-americans-believe-covid-origin-lab?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fpolitics%2Farticles-reports%2F2023%2F03%2F10%2Famericans-believe-covid-origin-lab
Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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With Robert F. Kennedy Jr. testifying to become Trump’s Health and Human Services Secretary, optimism and joy are coursing through the ascendant Make America Healthy Again movement, while fear and confusion are taking hold in American public health circles. To critics, he is an outspoken vaccine skeptic and spreader of conspiracy theories. To supporters, he is a singular figure, a warrior able to take on a broken system that is responsible for America's chronic health epidemic. As the nomination was rolling forward, the Trump administration sent shockwaves through the public health community, freezing day-to-day operations and funding and overwhelming doctors and scientists who are asking: Is this typical fallout from a new presidential transition or the start of a campaign to control science? We’re joined by Travis Tripodi a longtime supporter of RFK Jr., as well as Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, a public health leader and author of the wildly popular substack "Your Local Epidemiologist".
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guests:
Travis Tripodi, Braver Angels ambassador; independent consultant for health tech industry; RFK Jr. supporter (https://braverangels.org/)
Dr. Katelyn Jetelina, epidemiologist, author of newsletter Your Local Epidemiologist (https://www.yourlocalepidemiologist.co/)Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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Amid a blitz of public health-related executive orders issued by President Trump since Monday alone, including one that will pull America out of the WHO, comes news that a date has finally been set for RFK Jr's highly-anticipated confirmation hearing -- as of the moment of publishing, it will take place next week.
Dr. Paul Offit, a titan in the medical community and a fierce vaccine advocate, pulls no punches in confronting the very real prospect of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. heading Health and Human Services. He grapples with the sharp rise in vaccine hesitancy, the erosion of trust in public health, and the reality that mainstream science is losing the communication battle to popular podcasts and influencers championing skepticism of public health. Still, Offit refuses to back down, ease up, or give in when it comes to defending the power of vaccines.Offit responds to the story we feature of Daniel King, a once healthy, pro-vaccine Army veteran who says his health is now devastated and he wonders if it may have been due to the Covid vaccine—all he is looking for is some help understanding his condition and says the medical community is ignoring his pleas, further pushing him towards alternative sources of information.
Finally, with RFK Jr.’s confirmation hearings around the corner, what’s the one question Dr. Offit most wants senators to ask?
Huge thanks to Braver Angels and David Lapp for helping us meet Daniel King.
https://braverangels.org/
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guests:
Daniel King: medically retired Army veteran; former commercial truck operator
Dr. Paul Offit: infectious disease pediatrician, vaccine specialist, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, sits on FDA Vaccines Advisory Committee
Sources:
The impact of the Covid 19 Pandemic on vaccination uptake in the U.S.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10484032/
Risks of myocarditis associated with Covid 19 vaccine
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0
PEW Research Center: Americans’ Largely Positive Views of Childhood Vaccines Hold Steady
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2023/05/16/americans-largely-positive-views-of-childhood-vaccines-hold-steady/#:~:text=Americans%20remain%20steadfast%20in%20their,new%20Pew%20Research%20Center%20surveyRutherford: Troops Discharged for Refusing COVID Vaccine Must Be Reinstated
https://rutherford.house.gov/media/press-releases/rutherford-troops-discharged-refusing-covid-vaccine-must-be-reinstatedRoutine childhood vaccination rates lower than pre pandemic levels
https://www.ncsl.org/state-legislatures-news/details/routine-child-vaccination-rates-lower-than-pre-pandemic-levels
Dr. Paul Offit: Don’t Call Kennedy a Vaccine Skeptic. Call Him What He Is: A Cynic.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/13/opinion/rfk-jr-is-a-vaccine-cynic.htmlThanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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Special episode alert!
Dr. John Ioannidis: Critical of the Covid response, praiseful of vaccines, and hopeful data will rebuild our broken trust.
Dr. John Ioannidis is a renowned epidemiologist at Stanford University, a champion of data, and a stalwart for evidence-based research.Not afraid to ruffle feathers, rock the boat, or insert your idiomatic expression here, Ioannidis, true to form, set the scientific world afire in the earliest days of the pandemic when he criticized the public health community's rush to shut down schools and businesses without more reliable data on how severe the virus would become. This, as expected, raised the ire of the public health establishment, which criticized his downplaying of an unfolding pandemic that would ultimately claim 1.1 million American lives.
Now, the unicorn part: Today, while believing that aspects of our response to the pandemic did more harm than good, he is staunchly pro-vaccine, believes the COVID vaccine was a triumph of science, and has zero interest in pointing fingers of blame. Dr. Ioannidis also states unequivocally that vaccines do not cause autism and that treatments like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine have not been proven to work on COVID, often drawing ire from those who are skeptical of mainstream science.
With all this as a prologue, what does he think about the outbreak of mistrust that is consuming America today? We discuss how he believes we can find common ground, focus on the real threats we face (e.g., conflicts of interest in scientific research), and rebuild trust in one another.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
Guest:
Dr. John IoannidisThanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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Ivermectin is in the spotlight again -- thanks to Joe Rogan, Mel Gibson, and even some related legislation making its way around the country. Moreover, people we are speaking with who mistrust mainstream science regularly bring it up as an example illustrating a dishonest public health and media establishment.
How did an uncontroversial workhorse of an anti-parasitic drug—one that has saved countless lives and earned its discoverers a Nobel Prize—become and is continuing to be a major driver of mistrust for science and public health today?
Despite numerous studies confirming that it’s ineffective for treating or preventing COVID-19, Ivermectin has become a focal point in our national debate over the pandemic response, censorship, government overreach, and 'my science vs. your science' worldviews.
This is the story of often stirring anecdotes versus solid double-blind studies, at times condescending public health and media messaging, the Wild West of medical research, the role of money in medicine, and, finally, medical freedom.
We speak with Dr. David Boulware, a physician and one of the lead researchers who studied and did trials on Ivermectin, in an episode about what this unassuming drug has revealed about who we are and where we are headed.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari
Tom Johnson
Maggie Bartlett
with special guest host, Dr. Mark Abdelmalek
Guest:
Dr. David Boulware, infectious disease physician at the University of Minnesota, who oversaw the design of multiple clinical trials of Ivermectin
Sources:
Study Confirms No Benefit to Taking Ivermectin for COVID-19 Symptoms
https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/study-confirms-no-benefit-taking-ivermectin-covid-19-symptoms
CDC alert on dramatic rise in prescriptions, poison control reports, adverse events from ivermectin
https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/109271#tabs-220-30% of prescriptions are off-label:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9998554/#:~:text=Off%2Dlabel%20prescriptions%20for%20drugs,%25)3%20(Figure%201).Is Ivermectin Bogus or a “Miracle Drug”?
https://www.newsweek.com/ivermectin-bogus-miracle-drug-truth-lies-somewhere-between-1635304Emergency Use Authorizations of COVID-19–Related Medical Products:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2787205
Frontline Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC Alliance) page with data they say supports the use of ivermectin:
https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin/Bill forcing hospitals to administer ivermectin, other requested treatments nears finish line
https://www.cleveland.com/open/2024/12/bill-forcing-hospitals-to-administer-ivermectin-other-requested-treatments-nears-finish-line.htmlThanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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It's been 5 years since the pandemic and America's trust in public health, medicine, and science has plummeted. It's no secret that the COVID-19 response left a significant portion of Americans seething mad. Now, as the Trump administration, with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. leading the charge, prepares to take control of public health, and with the emergence of a new virus posing a growing threat, Brinda, Maggie, and Tom dig beneath the poll numbers and declining vaccination rates to explore what happens when so many Americans begin to question mainstream science. We speak with a suburban mom and lifelong Democrat about her personal health journey, her experience during the pandemic, and ultimately how her views on science and health led her to vote this time for Donald Trump.
Hosts:
Brinda Adhikari, former executive producer of The Problem with Jon Stewart on AppleTV+; former ABC News and CBS News
Tom Johnson, former executive producer of The Circus, on Showtime/Paramount+, former Bloomberg, ABC News
Dr. Maggie Bartlett: virologist, assistant research professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
Guests:
Melinda Hicks, former TV producer, Atlanta, GA
Dr. Mark Abdelmalek, skin cancer surgeon, dermatologist, physician
Sources we used for data:
TRUST IN PHYSICIANS DURING COVID
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11292455/
DECLINE OF CHILDHOOD VACCINATION RATES
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/childhood-vaccination-rates-continue-to-decline-as-trump-heads-for-a-second-term/
PUBLIC TRUST IN SCIENTISTS
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2024/11/14/public-trust-in-scientists-and-views-on-their-role-in-policymaking/ps_2024-11-14_trust-in-science_00-01/VIEWS ON CHILDHOOD VACCINATIONS
https://news.gallup.com/poll/648308/far-fewer-regard-childhood-vaccinations-important.aspx#:~:text=--%20Fewer%20Americans%20today%20consider,2019%20and%2064%25%20in%202001
CDC DATA ON MEASLES UPTICK
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html
WHERE WE FIRST READ ABOUT MELINDA:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/02/us/trump-public-health-dr-oz-rfk-jr.htmlThanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
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Hi everyone! Welcome to Why Should I Trust You?, a new weekly podcast looking at why so many Americans have lost trust in science and public health. Hosted by two former TV news journalists and a virologist, each week we will hear from those who mistrust mainstream science and also hear from those who ARE mainstream science. Join us as we take on everything from vaccines to doctor-patient relationships to what science has to say when there is uncertainty -- and how we can move forward together. Beginning in early January 2025!
Thanks for listening! If you like us, please leave a review, rate us, and please subscribe!
Got questions? Comments? We'd love to hear from you! Email us at questions@whyshoulditrustyou.net
