Avsnitt
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If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.
This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.
We're covering:
Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)
How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on Reddit
The simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)
How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problems
The contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate
"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguided
How to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your network
In this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content.
She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults.
Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.
Timestamps:
02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show
07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages
09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages
12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains
14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)
17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages
22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert
27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires
31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)
37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates
45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers
48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs
54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography
57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business
01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net Worth
Show Notes:
Tas LinkedIn
Her B2B website and landing page resource hub
Tas Website
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Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing.
Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversions
The reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content
"Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 months
Why most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silos
The uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel content
Listen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.
Timespan:
02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs
06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams
09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?
12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert
14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content
19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise
24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting
28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting
31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset
36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"
40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find Her
Show Notes:Lashay on LinkedIn
Rob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing Content
Exit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay Lewis
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."
In this episode, we're covering:
How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to pay
The "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growth
Why most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphs
The Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BS
Why writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneurs
How Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeople
Check out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too!
Timestamps:
01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert
02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research
06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research
10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis
12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story
17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey
19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him
21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity
23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship
27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?
30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships
34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors
39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting
42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)
44:30 Closing Remarks and Farewell
Show Notes:Ryan's LinkedIn
Blindspots on Amazon
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Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:
Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)
Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teams
The one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your results
The critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers miss
How to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediately
If you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.
Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?
02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach
04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems
05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals
06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation
09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing
12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making
16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging
19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness
22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon
27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing
29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable
34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing
35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework
38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)
41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences
44:35 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways
Show notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging Frameworks
Message Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example
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We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!
The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about:
✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it
✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃♀️
✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer
✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important
✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?
✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research
✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?
✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role
✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!
Timespan:
00:59 Introducing the Guest
02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights
09:45 AI in Product Marketing
20:45 Working with Sales Teams
25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis
26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits
28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification
29:01 The Buffet Analogy
33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept
36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment
42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing
48:04 Closing Remarks and Farewell
Shownotes:Follow Michelle on LinkedIn
Gong.io (for sales call analysis)
Perplexity AI (for deep research)
Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)
Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator)
BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency)
Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap
AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation)
Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool)
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Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.
Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.
✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).
✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.
✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?
✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.
✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.
✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).
✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.
✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.
If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥
Timespan:
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
00:16 Meet the Hosts
00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman
01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective
05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO
07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue
12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition
15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs
19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy
21:28 AI in Sales Enablement
22:40 Impact Over Quantity
23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise
25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer
30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function
34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates
39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI
41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth Tips
Show Notes:
Kyle's LinkedIn Profile
Copy.ai
Christopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"
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We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:
🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix
🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers
🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master
🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common
🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence
🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)
🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter
🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there
🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personas
Listen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧
Timespan:
00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions
00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers
02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business
09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing
16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics
18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders
23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas
24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports
25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM
26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM
34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts
39:47 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Show Notes:
Chanel LinkedIn
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In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value.
Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.
Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.
The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.
Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).
Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”
How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.
This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.
Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks!
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Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise?
In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes
on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.
If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams
→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content
→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign
→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling
→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing
→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands
→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception
→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers say
Listen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome
02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed
04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing
06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing
14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies
23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing
26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective
26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content
28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration
28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas
29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content
29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging
31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language
34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes
36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting
43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution
48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects
Show Notes:
The Reeder Website
Reed between the lines podcast
Devin’s LinkedIn
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Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms.
Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision.
How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.
How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.
The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.
Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.
Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.
Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Episode Context
01:32 Meet the Hosts
01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast
02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show
04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing
06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View
09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas
12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers
21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing
24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective
25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment
26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement
26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities
30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression
35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work
40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final Thoughts
Show Notes:
Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025
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Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?
In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:
The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.
Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.
How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.
Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.
From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.
Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.
🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.
Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route
01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges
02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits
04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset
09:36 Sales and Client Management
17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability
30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence
31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support
33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life
34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth
39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences
43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations
47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success
51:50 Final Thoughts and Reflections
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The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job.
Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).
Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.
He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!).
In this episode, we’re covering:
The importance of understanding your target audience
Why research can help you communicate your product value
The difference between storytelling and the format
Challenges of PMMs and if they are marketers
Common startup mistakes in messaging
The best time to drink beer
So grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡
Timespan:
00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers
00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel
01:55 Diving into Product Marketing
09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing
14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing
23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content
24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing
26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem
28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication
31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing
36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling
46:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Show Notes:
Peter’s LinkedIn
Product Marketing Newsletter
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Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.
That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)
This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketing
In this special episode, we’re covering:
The significance of clear messaging
AI's potential for PMMs
The inherent identity crisis within our field
Strategies for establishing effective product marketing
The necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan.
This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)
Timestamps:
01:39 Introducing the Guests
05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
07:34 AI in Product Marketing
18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing
23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move
23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing
24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market
26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence
27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager
32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate
38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing
46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find More
Show Notes:
Elliott LinkedIn
Aphrodite LinkedIn
Shoshana LinkedIn
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Episode Description:
In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.
Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.
What you’ll learn:
How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.
Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).
The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.
Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.
A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.
And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s?
Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.
Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.
Show Notes
01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski
02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey
04:36 The Role of Product Marketers
06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing
07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy
10:41 Navigating Internal Influence
13:46 The Value of External Perspectives
17:58 Building a Fractional Service
19:57 Experimentation and Iteration
24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business
34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise
35:47 The Power of Niching Down
37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making
41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency
43:51 The Importance of Specialization
50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies
59:42 Closing Thoughts and Farewells
How to connect with Rob
Rob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile
FletchPMM website
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Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone.
In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.
What’s Inside This Episode?
Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.
Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.
Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.
Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.
Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.
Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.
Who’s This Episode For?
Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who’re looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:
Your superpower isn’t just a skill—it’s how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk
01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role
02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing
03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength
04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM
06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower
09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs
14:29 The Importance of Confidence
23:24 Final Thoughts and Conclusion
Sponsor
Zach Messler with Clarityrules.com
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In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:
- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.
- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.
- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.
- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.
- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.
The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.
Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM’s impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research’ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.
Time Stamps
02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner
03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?
07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing
09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing
14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing
18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing
21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers
23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing
25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing
27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs
28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies
33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities
34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations
38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter
44:16 Using Gartner Insights
Where more to follow and connect with Rahim?
Rahim Kaba LinkedIn
Gartner Time to Value Podcast
Gartner for High Tech LinkedIn Page
Free Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM Skills
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The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list.
Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.
We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps.
The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:
Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysis
Build advocacy skills to align with other teams
Strengthen connections with product teams
Collaborate on roadmaps to grow your role
Gain skills to impact product decisions
Simplify tasks with AI to increase output
Discover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI!
Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches
02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing
05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer
17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing
28:53 Conclusion and Farewell
Show Notes:
Jess LinkedIn
https://pmmops.com/
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The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing.
We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.
And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween 💀 our FAVORITE HOLIDAY 🎃
Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, we’re talking about:
Combining new brands, products and segments
Freemium to Screemium
Failed launches and disastrous rebrands
Product enforcement gone wrong
A bunch of jokes and fun things
Start feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!
Timespan:
00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship
01:02 Meet the Hosts
01:28 Special Guest Introduction
03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction
06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare
14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits
19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare
21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products
22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes
24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco
25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster
30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle
37:29 Closing Thoughts and Farewell
Show Notes:
Michele’s LinkedIn
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For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles.
Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.
But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped?
Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he’s showing us:
How to build rapport with sales teams
The complexities of positioning and messaging
Why you need both wins and losses for good research.
Why information overload kill sales.
The nuanced value of churn analysis.
Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can’t say we heard this one yet!
Timespan:
00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers
00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan
01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing
12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis
21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales
34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty
34:59 Understanding Product Assessment
35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions
37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing
37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis
38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing
40:34 Effective Sales Messaging
43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic
50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis
54:29 Bad Sales Experiences
01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
Show Notes:
Matthew’s LinkedIn
Goldpan website
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Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstract marketing concept—it’s the foundation of your success. Whether you’re battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April’s got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here’s what you’re missing, by not listening:
Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.
The secret weapon for startups: April’s advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.
Why “actionable insights” aren’t really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.
CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April’s roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.
Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.
Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction
01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing
03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups
09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer
23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford
34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation
35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location
36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?
38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning
43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features
01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing
01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers
01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and More
Resources
April Dunford LinkedIn
April Dunford website
April Dunford’s Positioning Podcast
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- Visa fler
