Avsnitt
-
Ontario's electricity sector is evolving, as the province navigates the transition to cleaner energy amidst rising demand. In thinkenergy episode 135, we explore the grid's structure and key players, highlighting the crucial role of distributors (Local Distribution Companies or LDCs) in facilitating this transition. Guest Teresa Sarkesian, President and CEO of the Electricity Distributors Association (EDA), sheds light on LDCs' frontline efforts and pivotal contributions shaping the energy landscape.
Related links
Teresa Sarkesian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-sarkesian-53898613/
Electricity Distributors Association: https://www.eda-on.ca/
Green Button information: https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/green-button
Electrification and energy transition panel report: https://www.ontario.ca/document/ontarios-clean-energy-opportunity-report-electrification-and-energy-transition-panel
Ontario Electricity Support Program: https://ontarioelectricitysupport.ca/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
...
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 0:07
Hi, welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us, at think energy at hydro ottawa.com Hi, everyone, welcome back. Now it's no secret that Ontario's electricity sector is transforming rapidly as it moves to both decarbonize the grid itself, you know, we have a very clean grid in Ontario, but it's not totally carbon free. And to support the growing demand for electricity as our customers across the province, take steps to electrify and change how they use energy. The show is all about exploring those changes, among other things, and today is no different. But before we dive into our conversation today, I think it would be helpful for me to spend just a few quick minutes on some basics about how our electricity grid is structured in Ontario, and who some of the key players are. Now I know some of our listeners will know this already, but it can be hard to keep track of all those key players. And Ontario's structure is a little different than some of the neighboring jurisdictions no two jurisdictions are exactly alike. So, a refresher is never a bad thing. Now the most basic description is that electricity is largely generated at central generation facilities. So, think nuclear power plants are your electric generating stations, some gas fired generating stations and large-scale wind and solar installations. We call these entities generators simple as that. That electricity is then transmitted across the province in an interconnected grid of high voltage transmission lines, which also connect to other jurisdictions such as neighboring provinces and states, and Ontario, Hydro One runs the transmission network. Now you've probably seen this transmission network. These would be the large metal towers that you see out in the middle of a field when you're driving along the highway or in rural areas that have electricity wires strung way up high in the air. The last stage before it gets to the end user is called distribution. So, this is where electricity is taken from those high voltage lines stepped down to a usable voltage for residential and commercial customers via transformers and substations, and then distributed over a network of overhead and underground wires, then these would be the wires that you would see at the top of those wooden or composite poles that are along the side of the road in your neighborhood. The entities that run this distribution part are called distributors, again, simple as that. So, there's a few other key players that are worth mentioning here. Energy Policy is primarily the jurisdiction of the provincial government, who sets the general direction and associated rules and regulations accordingly. The Ontario Energy Board or OEB is the regulatory body who governs what all those other players do and enacts the government mandate. And finally, at least for today's purposes, we have the system operator. It's called The Independent Electricity System Operator in Ontario, or IESO, who runs the system. So, if you're in Windsor, Ontario, or Ottawa, or North Bay, and you want to turn on your air conditioner, or plug your EV in to charge, the IESO is responsible for making sure there's enough power on the grid to handle that load. So, I hope everyone is still with me and feel free to pause and do some jumping jacks if that was a lot to take in. Our conversation today is going to be focused on the role of the distributor. So, for full disclosure, as you know, I work for hydro Ottawa who is one of those distributors, we serve most electricity customers in the City of Ottawa, and the neighboring village of Casselman and in Ontario, you will often hear distributors referred to as local distribution companies or LDCs. So, forgive me if I slip into that acronym throughout the conversation today, that's really just the sort of common name that we refer to those distributors as. But I'll try to mix it up and make sure that, that I'm explaining that acronym throughout as well. So, the distributor is really the front line, the customer facing entity of the entire electricity system. If you are an electricity customer, and you think about the electricity system, you are probably thinking about your distributor. Chances are you get your bill from a distributor, even though for most customers, most of what you pay on that bill doesn't actually go to the LDC. Some of it stays with your local distribution company, but most of it goes to the transmitter to the generator, to the IESO etc. When the power goes out, it's probably your LDC that you call and it's your LDC that will give you a restoration time. Sometimes outages are caused by issues up the line, so to speak in the transmission portion of the grid. But often the issue is a localized one. And it's your LDC that is identifying the problem and fixing it, whether that means rolling a truck to string new cable, or performing switching to work around the problem. And finally, it's your LDC that is really on the frontlines of the energy transition. While all parts of the grid must then have started to change, the LDCs are really working hand in hand with our customers to identify where and how fast and new demand is needed to bridge that gap between customers and policymakers to enable more and more renewable generation. And also to determine what new technologies or programs we need to pilot and scale up. And it's really the LDCs that are driving change in the way that electricity is managed at the individual customer level moving forward. So, to help us make some sense of this, I'm happy to have Teresa Sarkesian on the show today. Teresa is the president and CEO of the electricity Distributors Association, which is a role that she's held since 2016. This is actually Teresa second time on the show the first being back in December 2021. So we're happy to have Teresa back, Teresa, welcome back to the show.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:23
Thanks so much, Trevor. I'm really delighted to be back.
Trevor Freeman 6:27
Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, like I said, you were back on our show in 2021. I don't know if it's because of how COVID has changed our lives or if this is just the way things go. But sometimes, you know, weeks seem like years. So, 2021 is a long time ago. Let's start by refreshing our listeners on the role and mandate of the electricity Distributors Association.
Teresa Sarkesian 6:49
Sure, thing so the electricity Distributors Association, or the EDA our little acronym represents Ontario's public and private electric utilities that distribute electricity to 5.4 million homes, businesses and institutional customers across the province. And I should note that those 5.4 million customers really refers to build accounts so you have families that are behind a build account. So effectively the millions and millions of Ontarians and businesses that operate and live here are customers of our utilities. And as you know our members are on the front lines of power, and have developed a strong trust with their customers by providing safe, reliable and affordable service for over 100 years. The EDA itself provides analysis and networking and advocacy for our members to ensure that the energy policy direction and framework in Ontario is fair and balanced, supporting the financial viability of utilities to deliver service and ensuring affordability for customers. And long term, we are looking to ensure that our local distribution company members can become the premier energy solution providers to their customers, and that they're able to provide the value-added services that customers are already expecting from them but are going to grow with the energy transformation and electrification in the future.
Trevor Freeman 8:09
Yeah, it's kind of like I said, when people think about the electricity sector, they're probably thinking about their distributor. And the EDA is kind of that common voice for those distribution companies. So, you first joined the EDA back in 2009, and have been the president and CEO since 2016. So, we'll look ahead and talk about the future in a minute. But before we do that, tell us about how things have changed so far during your tenure. How are things different from 2009 When you first joined the organization?
Teresa Sarkesian 8:40
Yeah, and you know, this is almost like perfect timing, Trevor, because I've been at the association now for 15 years, I'm just marking my 15-year anniversary. So, feels really apropos to kind of reflect and look back. So, I want to break down my answer into two parts. So, I'm going to talk to you about some, I guess, just my own personal observations about the electricity system at large. And then I'm going to talk more about the changes in distribution. But some of the changes that I thought were really quite significant and profound, sort of when I joined the industry in 2009, I joined at a time when there was the Green Energy Act, and the province was looking to connect all kinds of renewable energy generation to the electricity grid. So that was fairly significant. Another thing that was happening with the province is that they closed down coal fired generation. That was pretty massive. In fact, I think, at the time, it was the largest kind of carbon reduction initiative in North America. And I think even to this date today, I think it still is something that Ontario really has to be proud of. Another thing that you know, at the time, I think that was you know, fairly significant in 2015 is just the expectation of what the demand would be. What was interesting, sort of like the past for 15 years, the demand from customers for electricity was actually flat or declining. And that's all changed. Now. 15 years later, we're, we're now forecasting, massive increases in in demand of energy, which could potentially be doubling in the future. And the other point I'd like to make is just the nuclear renaissance that we're having. I think when I joined the sector in 2009, I'll tell you, I think the public opinion of nuclear was actually quite low. And that's been completely turned around lots of geopolitical events around the world, I think, have driven that. And now that nuclear is having a huge Renaissance. And you're seeing, you know, lots of new investments in nuclear. And we're not talking about shutting down reactors anymore. We're talking about refurbishing and expanding. So those are some of the things that I've observed over the last 15 years that have really changed. And for local distribution companies, I think what I have seen is a growing expectation by both government and the regulators for electric utilities to do more to both support the grid reliability and meet growing expectation from customers. So, I started in the sector in 2009, it was right on the brink of implementation of smart meters, and time of use. And what was interesting is that was mandated, there were very few jurisdictions in the world that actually had mandated smart meters and time of use pricing. So again, Ontario is was one of the first. And so that was a big change for LDCs. To move from, you know, smart meters and having to bring in that technology and also support the technology of time of use. I did mention the Green Energy Act at the time, we suddenly had to connect 1000s and 1000s, of new solar and wind generation, as well. And that was all new. There were no protocols, there were no standards for that. So that was fairly significant as well. And when I kind of fast forward to I guess, more recently, there have been a lot of changes from government, I think they've really supported our industry, they understand the trust that we have, with our customers. And they've implemented, you know, a number of new changes in terms of rate structures, they've asked us to implement ultra low-rate pricing that can support overnight electric vehicle charging. And they've also asked us to introduce a green button digital platform that allows customers to download their energy data and share with third parties for you know, different assessments and tools for lowering energy costs. But it's all not, you know, unicorns and kittens, there's challenges to for our sector, grid resilience was, you know, not really, people talked about it in 2009, but not like they're talking about it now, because of climate change. And we are seeing more frequent storms, causing, you know, obviously, outages for the customer, and also significant damage to the distribution grid. And I know that hydro Ottawa has faced more than its fair share of very destructive storms over the past few years, we have Yes, I can't remember which Victoria Day weekend where we had, I didn't ever know how to say it the derecho or the derecho. So there, we weren't getting storms we've never even heard of before. And unfortunately, I think that is our new normal. So, grid resilience is something that we are very concerned about, and we need to make sure we've got the appropriate investments for that. So those are just a few of the highlights that, you know, when I came into the sector sort of things that were kind of ramping up, and then what's happening now, but I guess what I could say, the commonality is there's constant change in the sector. And what I'm seeing going forward is that change is going to be accelerated.
Trevor Freeman 13:40
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating to listen to you lay it all out like that. Thinking back to 15 years ago, it's hard to even remember, you know, not having smart meters, having meters that really just ticked forward and measured your consumption over the course of a month, and someone would come and read that. And, you know, having declining or even flat demand profiles that aren't increasing is so different from the world that we are in today. But I think what you said there at the end is really important. We are in our industry, an organization that knows about change, we're constantly changing, which helps us as we look forward into your point, we're going to see that level of change and the pace of change accelerate. So, I think that sets us up pretty well. So, let's start to look forward, then I know that the EDA is about to launch a new vision paper. So, we're going to dive into some of the details. But maybe let's start by kind of a high-level summary of what is the vision that you are trying to lay out with this paper?
Teresa Sarkesian 14:42
Okay, and no problem. So, I think what I want to start just give a little bit of background as to why we did this. We've done a couple of vision papers and implementation plans in the past. But you know, they were like seven, eight years ago and things have changed a lot even in Seven or eight years. So, what we've been seeing, obviously, I think the big change over the last few years has been the big focus on meeting Net Zero targets in 2050, that we are going to get to net zero in terms of our greenhouse gas emissions. Not only in Canada, but this is actually a bit of a global commitment, you know, for countries that have signed on to that objective. So, what happens when you set up, you know, those big audacious goals? You have all kinds of organizations and entities looking at how are we going to get there, how much it's going to cost? What do we need to do to get there? And so, when we started reviewing some of these publications, both in Ontario, Canada, and actually in other jurisdictions, they were very good. They talked about what supply mix that we need the investment in transmission, but almost 100% of the papers, Trevor, if you can believe this, just neglected distribution, no one talked about distribution, they didn't talk about how distribution is going to have to change what the investments would be. And then we'll so we said it's going to be critical for us to identify the electric utility role and the energy transition, and how the sector will need to be grid ready to support electrification, economic development, grid resilience, and customer preferences. So, we view that LDCs are going to be pivotal in enabling Ontario's low carbon economy, navigating the challenges posed by climate policies, electrification trends, and these evolving customer demands. And with Ontario's growing economy and the demands for housing intensify, LDCs must innovate to effectively meet these accelerating electricity needs and changing preferences. And right now, we've seen the ISO is predicting significant consumption growth from 144 terawatt hours in 2023, to 240 terawatt hours and 2050 not quite double, but it's getting close. And so, this rapid growth demands urgent attention to adopt new strategies and to ensure that the local distribution companies can make the necessary investments in grid enhancements to expand the capacity and capability of the distribution system. So, while reliability and affordability remain Paramount customers do expect additional value from their utility service. And, you know, we are seeing all sorts of things that are happening, you know, such as the need for swift electric vehicle charging installation, and other upgrades that will increase the electrical load. We see that LDCs are more frequently interacting with businesses that seek utility partners to achieve their energy management, sustainability and ESG goals. And in parallel, the LDC must prepare to respond to increase climate change induced extreme weather events. So, recognizing the essential role of LDCs in the energy transition, we've worked in collaboration with industry experts to outline a vision of the role of utilities, so they can enable economic development, housing growth and electrification. And the report identifies urgent and practical steps that LDCs in partnership with the government, and its agencies must take in the near term to achieve the benefits of this transition. So, what you'll see in the paper is recommendations related to the need for clear policy direction on regulatory frameworks to support LDCs in becoming grid ready, and with a continued focus on affordability and enabling a customer choice and opportunity. And we also discuss issues like workforce needs. And we also emphasize the role of human capital in enabling technological advancements. So that's very high level what it is, and I will get into it a bit more as we have our discussion further.
Trevor Freeman 18:41
Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it of the entire sector is changing at all levels. But what you're really doing is laying out that vision that roadmap for the distributors, in particular, and I think that's great. Maybe like, who is the audience for this paper? Who are you kind of directing this at?
Teresa Sarkesian 18:59
Well, we're still putting the crossing the T's and dotting the I's., but I think it's about 80 pages. So, it's not going to be for everyone, obviously, you know, government decision makers, government, policymakers, people that work in their regulatory agencies and our energy board, the Independent Electricity System Operator, we did try to make it accessible. There is an executive summary that's about two or three pages, which I think will be of great interest to a lot of people to read. And I think it gives a very kind of a high-level overview of what's in the document. So that's something that we're trying to do. And, you know, obviously our LTC members are an audience as well. They've been working with us hand in glove the last few months we've had extensive member meetings we had a board committee that helped steer this paper. But you know, ultimately, the paper is really focused on our customers because its customers and businesses that are driving a lot of this change for the future, whether it's businesses that are on their own journey on environmental, social and governance ESG objectives, and they're looking for more low carbon communities to invest in its customers who are very interested in EV charging, and maybe what the opportunity for the batteries can be to sell that storage back to the grid. It's, it's really the customers that are driving this change.
Trevor Freeman 20:31
Right Yeah, and I mean, the nature of this medium is I don't know who's out there listening. But I'd encourage, you know, all of our listeners, when this comes out, take a look at it and get some insight into kind of how the distributors role is laid out there. So, let's dive into some of the details. You know, you outline obviously, some of the traditional roles and functions of the LDCs. So, from maintaining, owning and maintaining the infrastructure, the poles and wires, and doing customer metering and billing, that stuff's not going away, we're going to keep doing those things. But you also highlight some of these emerging roles that have begun to appear, or that we'll see in the next couple of years, you know, a more of a focus on distributed energy resources, like solar on roofs, for example, that LDCs are going to have to work to both enable as well as integrate into our own systems. It's going to include things like more customer programs, and rate design, etc. I'm curious, you know, how are LDCs going to balance that traditional role that we've already been doing, along with this rapidly new expanding set of roles that we need to tackle?
Teresa Sarkesian 21:38
That's a great question, Trevor. So, look, LDCs will continue, as we always have been to be responsible for safe, reliable and affordable delivery of electricity to customers, customers can count on us to do that 24/7. And even with all these anticipated grid expansions, we're not going to be shut down, if the critic dispatches so, you know, we're experts at multitasking in our sector, and we will continue to do so. And with the increases, as you mentioned, in distributed energy resources, and electrification, there are the pressures for us to adapt, modernize and change how we ensure the safety and reliability in the service to customers. And the emerging roles and responsibilities aren't something that's in the distant future. You know, as I mentioned before, changes the constant, we have been engaging in ongoing adaptation. And so, when I think about the future, and I think about what we call grid modernization, it really is part of the ongoing continuous improvement, and the pursuit of the digital utility of the future, that every utility is on that journey. So, you know, utilities have been bringing in new technologies, particularly related to information technology, communications, and digital solutions. And so, while we're in early stages, we are expecting our members to become more digitally based in the future, they're going to be introducing advanced distribution management systems to monitor the grid. And they're also going to have distributed energy resource management systems to monitor all the connections that are behind the meter. So, I think what is different now than in the past, is simply that the pace of change is being dramatically accelerated. So, for example, it took us about 100 years to get the grid to its current size, yet, we need to almost double the current grid in 25 years. So, we have to move four times as fast. And the grid is not going to be built with just simple poles and wires and one way energy flow like it has been for basically the last 100 years, it's going to be a lot more complex, we're going to see two-way energy flows, so it's not just us sending power to the customer one way, they're potentially going to be selling back their energy generation or their energy storage back onto the grid. So, we need to have that temerity, that two-way, power flow. So that's going to be a big change. And we also expect there to be a lot more customer interaction. They want to leverage their own generation and storage behind the meter. And we as utilities, want to be able to leverage that to help us with you know, reliability, Storm outage, other emergency situations. So, we see there's going to be a greater interactive relationship with customer than simply, you know, maybe sending a bill to them or offering them conservation programs, it's going to be much more dynamic than it has been in the past. And so, you know, over the last two decades, and we talked about this a bit already, the utility has been modernizing the system in response to government policy initiatives, regulatory requirements, and customer preferences. One other example, recently, utilities were required to implement something called green button. And we've been also engaging by bringing them more into the system through net metering. And a lot of our members are also involved in various pilot projects with the Independent Electricity System Operator and with Enercan to look at all kinds of new LTC models and functions. So, and you're going to see a lot of this actually, in our vision paper is that to really be effective, cost effective. To make sure this happens at the accelerated pace, we do need for there to be proactive policy and regulatory changes, to remove barriers and empower LDCs to embrace these new evolving roles in shaping the future of the energy sector. And as I mentioned before, customers are demanding it. And I want to point out a research report that came out by the International Energy Agency just late last year. And they made it very clear that in quite a number of countries around the world, the lack of the regulatory permission to provide more investments in the distribution system is now becoming a significant barrier to new renewable energy projects connecting on the system. And while we don't have that situation here in Ontario, if we don't start moving quickly, in terms of reforming the regulatory context, then we might be like some of these other countries, and we don't want to be that a barrier, you want to be able to enable what our customers want on the grid.
Trevor Freeman 26:07
Yeah, so I'm going to ask you a question about that last point in a minute. But I think your framing of the ways that the sector is going to change, and the way our customers are going to interact with us is going to change is really great. And it's something that you know, often comes up in conversation. And I often say, there is no single strategy or tool here, we can't solve the coming challenges with just more poles and wires. We can't solve it with just new innovative solutions, we need all of those things, we need more poles and wires. But we also need more programming, more innovation, more technology, we need to utilize those distributed energy resources out there on the grid. So, I think that's a great way to frame it. Okay, so let's talk about grid planning a little bit. So LDCs play a really key role in helping forecast the needs of the future, both for our own distribution systems, but also feeding up into those broader provincial needs. So, the insight that we gain from our customers, we pass up to the IESO, for example, so that they can do planning at the provincial level. Traditionally, this is a pretty consistent process. You know, in the past, we get a sense from municipalities and developers, how cities are going to expand and grow. And we've generally been able to count on the typical home using roughly the same amount of electricity as homes that are out there today. So, we account for a certain expansion of commercial customers based on the Intel that we get from those customers. And we know roughly what they're going to use. The problem is that model's kind of being turned on its head a little bit. So, we now need to account for even our existing customers increasing their load because they are electrifying or they want to add EV chargers. And new developments today are likely going to have increased demand compared to some of the historical developments, because we're going to see all electric communities or at the very least more electrified and uses. So I know you don't have a crystal ball yet that tells us exactly how this change is going to happen. But what are LDCs doing to adapt their long-term grid planning to account for this uncertainty?
Teresa Sarkesian 28:22
Yeah, you're so right, Trevor forecasting is getting more challenging. And I just want to start with a little story before I get into my answer about that. So, you know, electric vehicles are kind of the hot thing right now. And you know, although people I think are still on a waiting list for certain cars, there's lots of others that are available. And so, one of the concerns that our sector had was we didn't know where these electric vehicles were going to pop up. And we weren't getting any kind of pre advanced warning when people started making orders or, you know, advanced purchases for electric vehicles. So, we actually did a great advocacy campaign, with the province with both the Ministry of Energy of the Ministry of Transportation, to secure postal code data for utility, so they could see where people were going to be purchasing electric vehicles to help them with their own planning, in terms of, you know, making sure that their local feeders were upgraded their local transformers, and so that just got announced a year ago. But that's obviously not going to be good enough. And that just tells us about electric vehicles, you know, in the near term, but this is I think, you know, having sightlines into our customer behavior, whether we do that proactively with you know, consultations and communications with customers, or we can do it by you know, pinging the meter, or getting data such as postal codes. We are going to have to, you know, adapt and have greater visibility and sightlines into the customer. And so this is that some of that technology that I was talking about earlier, the sophisticated future grid is going to need lots of visibility and transparency, for usage and investment to be able to, you know, look at these two way power flows, look at how customers are behaving, in order to better plan the system, we also need to maximize and optimize the data that we have, you know, from our planners, it's going to be vital to protecting the grid reliability and resilience, we're going to have to have more partnerships with municipalities, in terms of their energy planning for the future and things that they want for their community. And, you know, one of the things that we're asking for on our paper is actually to, you know, rethink the distribution system plan, that the utilities have to file with the OMB every five years, and start building in a, you know, Grid Modernization plan within that broader plan. So, we can get the regulator to start looking ahead and seeing what these requests are, it'll be important to also have various performance metrics and filing guidelines for grid modification from the energy board. So, you know, these are some of the things I think that the membership is going to have to look at but it is going to be a very iterative experience, because it's just it's the pace of change is the big unknown. And so, everyone talks about these things. But you know, I saw something today, I think it was from Ford Motor Company, and they're kind of slowing down, it's taken them a while to retool their plants. So that could take an extra two years now for them to be up and running and producing electric vehicles. So, there's going to be all these other pieces of the puzzle that are constantly going to be changing a moving and evolving. It is I think, planning for the future is going to be very challenging. And I do expect the province to start talking about this higher level, maybe starting at the end of this year, they just came off a massive exercise related to the energy transition electrification panel. And I do expect to see more guidance from the province as well, in terms of how they're going to manage this planet, because it's not just planning for us. It's planning for everybody else in the system, too.
Trevor Freeman 32:02
Yeah. And for listeners out there, if you haven't had a look at that energy transition electrification panel reports, a really fascinating read. So, I'd encourage you to take a look at it. You mentioned a lot of interesting things there. So, for our listeners, and I'll probably do a future episode on this so I won't get into detail, but LDCs typically have to file five-year rate applications once every five years that really lay out their plans for those five years and how they're going to fund them. So coincidentally, hydro Ottawa was getting ready to do our next one. And like I said, I'll probably talk about that on a future episode. But one thing we did when it comes to forecasting is, we conducted a electrification study that looks at if we electrify by 2050, like our plans, say we will and you know, society wise, what does that mean for the grid? And some of the inputs we took is, you know, what are the federal plans for electrification? What are our own municipal plans for electrification? What are we hearing from our customers, and that really, is helping us modify and change how we do grid forecasting, based on some of the changes that we're seeing from our customers. So I think this is a really important piece that, like you said, we're going to need to iterate on we're not going to get it right the first time. But we're starting to think of how do we need to change the way we do things in order to keep up with what our customers are doing.
Teresa Sarkesian 33:28
I think one thing I've seen more of the last few years, because this is much more complex than it's been in the past that I've seen, like the IESO, for example, they've done more, you know, scenario setting. So, when they've had their, you know, their APO's and AER safe, they sort of had other two or three scenarios, and they're constantly updating their numbers every year. So, these are other changes that we're starting to see. And even myself, I was just looking at the provincial budget detail the other day, they also set out, you know, scenarios as well. They're just not picking Oh, it's going to be, you know, X amount of deficit. And you know in 2028 they're actually forecasting out different scenarios. So, I think that's another piece I see more in play, that people will, you know, showcase what assumptions they have, and will have maybe two or three different scenarios as well.
Trevor Freeman 34:21
Yeah, and I think it's a, it's a great way to tackle that unknown component to where we've never really been through a change like this before. We've never wholesale changed the way we use energy in our society. So, there's a degree of uncertainty, obviously, and I think, targeting out that kind of, let's call it high, medium, low scenario, or whatever the metric might be, is going to be really critical for us to make sure we're staying within the boundaries of what's possible and what's probable and refining that constantly as we move forward. So that's a great point. Something else you mentioned a little bit ago, that's, you know, could be a bit of a nebulous term is grid modernization now I've actually got a future episode, and specifically about grid modernization and what hydro Ottawa is doing, I think it might actually be our next one. So, we don't need to go into all the details on this. But let's just help our listeners understand what do we mean when we're talking about grid modernization? And why is this important? Why is it important to our customers that we do this kind of back-office improvement?
Teresa Sarkesian 35:23
So, I'm going to keep it really simple, because I know you're going to do a deep dive on it and a future episode. But essentially, Grid Modernization are improvements that LDCs will make simply to augment our capabilities, and enable us to offer new or improved services to customers. So back-office improvements might look like things like real time sensing, and monitoring systems to improve efficiency and reliability. Or we may be investing in new digital infrastructure communication systems to improve safety, cybersecurity, it can also include more visible improvements to safeguard our infrastructure against extreme weather, and climate change to reduce outages. And like one, I guess, example that some of your customers might already be recognizing, you know, we made investments in green button, which enables customers to download their data, send it to a third party if they want to save on customer use. So, it really is the whole soup to nuts, it really is not just one type of technology or solution. It is a combination of a whole series of things that the that the utility will need to do. And I think why we want to do it, I think when we look at all of the pressures on the system, from NetZero objectives to housing priorities, you know, to accelerate broadband development, and support electrification, the pressures seem to be never ending. And the only way that we can respond to all those pressures, is to be grid ready. And, you know, like I said, it's it is a form of continuous improvement. It's just that now it's the pace accelerated pace is such so extraordinary, that we need to have a more dedicated plan. But most importantly, we have to make sure we have dedicated attention by policymakers and regulatory decision makers as well. Because right now, there isn't that dedicated attention to this very important task. Yeah,
Trevor Freeman 37:28
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's great that you bring up all these pressures that we're feeling that it's I think it's time we kind of talk about that elephant in the room, our customers often ask us about affordability, or we're hearing from our customers about affordability, I was actually at a customer event not too long ago, and talking about the change that we're going to see here talking about some of this, you know, large scale transition of our energy sector. These are not small investments that we have to make. We're talking about both an increase of our infrastructure, you know, you mentioned almost doubling the capacity of the grid. We're talking about modernizing our grid systems, that's a lot of back-office work with new technology, and bringing on new programs. Like this is a big change. Energy affordability is already a kind of a challenge today for some folks. So, as we get into this new investment that we have to make as we start moving down the path of the energy transition, how do we balance affordability, especially for our vulnerable populations, with the level of investment that we know is necessary to do the things that we have to do? Yes,
Teresa Sarkesian 38:42
Yes, that's the multibillion-dollar question, Trevor. And it's something I'm going to carve out my response, because there's some things that we've put into our vision paper for the future, because affordability is absolutely critical. And as you know, this is basically a massive restructuring of the economy going forward. So, there's may be other participants who might be playing a funding role. So, you know, right now, obviously, you know, customers aren't monolithic, and you know, residential customers who are struggling to pay bills. Do you have some programs that they can, that they can access, they have the low income Energy Assistance Program, they have the Ontario electricity support program. Some of those are funded by the tax base, some are funded by other electricity customers. The province also gives a rebate to customers in Ontario, and that's a pretty big rebate. I don't think a lot of residential customers are aware of it but it is over 7 billion annually to residential small business customers. That's a lot of money. But I don't know if customers really appreciate that. So, I don't know what's going to be available going forward. These are some of the challenges that you know policy makers, you know, have to address as well. So, when we were thinking about this as part of our paper, we sort of looked at it from a number of perspectives. So, the federal government has set up all these Net Zero targets, they've set out, you know, targets for electric vehicle manufacturing, as well. And so, it might be appropriate for them to share part of the burden with this massive energy transformation. And it's interesting, we actually pulled customers about 2000 Customers two years ago, we asked them a whole series of questions about the changes going forward. And customers do have different perspectives about who should be paying for some of this energy transition. So, when we asked them about who should be paying for electric vehicle, charging infrastructure, and they said, Oh, electricity, customers should pay for that, because that's something that everyone's going to benefit from. When we ask them about, you know, who should be paying for the electricity grid, to address climate change and hit Net Zero targets, they actually the majority, 58% said, the taxpayer should be paying for that. So, I think that's just a very interesting data point. But it's something that, you know, we've been active on in terms of having those conversations with the federal government, saying that, you know, you have offered different subsidies to attract different companies to invest in Ontario, based on our clean grid, but we need to have the whole grid support it. So, you know, we're pursuing federal government support, we also are looking at increased maybe private equity engagement in in our sector. So right now, we have a couple of private members, but there's not a lot of private equity money in the sector, most of our members are municipally owned, and municipalities can't invest in their utility, probably even if they wanted to, because they're in short supply of funds as well, they have their own taxpayer that they have to deal with. So, one of the solutions we are putting forward to government is to increase the private equity threshold, so it doesn't trigger additional taxes, right now, it's only 10% ownership. But we're saying that maybe a tool in the toolbox should be up to 49% ownership. So, it would allow private equity to come the patient capital, they're not maybe looking to seek a return right away. So, there's some you know, flexibility there as well. Another thing we're looking at is to revisit the debt equity ratios of utilities to manage the costs over the long term. So, you'd be effectively amortizing on some of those grid investments as well. So, these are some of the ideas that we have around how we can basically fund the energy transition going forward. You know, and some people say, Well, if you could get customers to think about their energy usage holistically, so if they're going to be, you know, moving away from a, you know, a combustion engine car, and they're going to be using heat pumps, instead of, you know, natural gas heating in their home, if you could get people to think holistically what they're saving on the kind of, you know, GHG side of things, versus what they are going to be spending on electricity, they may actually be spending less if they look at it holistically, but I don't really know, to be honest with you, so that I'd rather focus on the things that we could ask government for, as opposed to asking customers to be, you know, thinking more holistically at their entire energy usage, which is just not how they think. And I think, to change that behavior, would be quite a monumental task going forward. But those are some of the things that we think about, because we are very concerned about the affordability going forward, because it is such a massive change that we're all experiencing.
Trevor Freeman 43:50
Yeah, I think this is another example of there is no single solution here. There is no you know, silver bullet that's going to help us pay for all of this, we need all the tools on the table here, we need to look at all different options. And I think you outlined a couple of them, you know, in what you said about our customers impression of some of this change and who should pay for it. Last episode, I talked to David Coletto, from Abacus data, and he was saying on the whole Canadians really believe that an electrified energy system, we know once we make that transition, we will be more secure, it will be more affordable. And I think those customers who have made some transition in their lives can see the benefit of that. But sometimes the initial hurdle is pretty hard to get over that upfront capital cost. And so, looking for ways, both at the customer level as well as at the utility level, the LDC level I think is going to be important to help get over that initial capital outlay that's required, so that we can realize those benefits that we all know where they are that we know we'll see. So. Yeah, great filling some of those out. So, I know I mentioned that I will get back to this. But I do want to talk to you about the advocacy role that the EDA plays. So, you mentioned, you know, talking to governments and Ontario, the provincial governments across Canada, the provincial government has jurisdiction over most energy matters. So, advocacy to the government is a key role that you play. I'm curious, what are you asking the government to do or to provide to help some of these changes that we're talking about happen? What is the advocacy that you're pushing for with the government?
Teresa Sarkesian 45:32
So, I'm going to try to keep it really simple and just sort of, you know, tie it back to our vision paper for now, because at any given time, I'm working on 20 or 30 l policy issues, primarily with the Ontario government. But this past year, we have expanded our work to also include the federal government, because they have investment tax credits that we are interested in for our members to see if they could be eligible for those. We're interested in them changing things to the Canada Infrastructure Bank, also to provide new sources of equity there. And we're also pursuing grants, as well, for grid modernization. So provincially, a whole whack of issues. But I'm going to go back to our paper just to give your audience a little bit of a sneak peek on some of the things that we're going to be asking for. So, one of the first things we're going to be asking for is to get a common understanding and definition of grid modernization, and electrification. And this is not really new of an idea, we kind of have copied it from the US, there's a lot of jurisdictions, there where very clear objectives that have been set out in order to justify grid modernization, investments. So, we think that it'd be beneficial for Ontario to do that, because then once you have those objectives in place, it is going to make it a lot easier to be able to prioritize grid modernization capabilities, functionalities, and investments in line with those objectives. You know, and then from there, you know, we're looking at creating a series of foundational investments. So going forward, some of the things that we think are foundational, are things like the distributed energy resource management systems and the advanced metering infrastructure, which is sort of like smart meters 2.0, for lack of a better term, and also the advanced distribution management systems. So, we see those are going to be foundational pieces that all utilities are going to need to be able to help customers interact with the grid, and they're going to be necessary grid investments. So how what we see for those is we would like it to be similar policy direction, like we had for smart meters and green button, where you have government mandated activities. And then those are given, you know, a kind of lower standard of evidence with the Ontario Energy Board to support that capital infrastructure, they're deemed as priorities and ties back to that initial plan, where you set objectives, as long as those objectives can be that then those should get a pass through.
Trevor Freeman 48:12
If I could jump in right there just for our listeners. So what Teresa is describing here is, at the moment when there are unique things that are not part of government mandate, yet every LDC and Ontario, of which there are many 60, something I don't even have the number in front of me but every LDC when it comes time to enact that project has to go through a whole exercise of justifying it proving why it's necessary, saying this is why we want to do it. If there was some commonality across LDCs in the province, we wouldn't have to put as much effort into, you know, the report writing side of it, we could just get down to business and make these changes that we all know across the province are important. So, I think it's helpful for us to understand how that process works.
Teresa Sarkesian 49:00
Yeah, and thank you for interjecting on that, Trevor, because if government wants us to move fast, we can, but we need that certainty. So, you know, we're no different than any even though we're regulated monopolies. We're really no different than any other business that wants to do business in Ontario, you're always looking for certainty and clarity, from legislation from policy from regulation, because the uncertainty is what slows things down. Another recommendation that I'm moving forward with is that we need to move beyond pilot projects. I had a conversation with a consultant who is working with Enercan on this and they want to move beyond I love their term, death by demonstration. We've got a couple of dozen pilot projects currently in the sector, whether they're funded provincially through the IESO or they're funded federally through Natural Resources Canada, and you know, there's some very exciting results that are coming out of those. But some of those pilot projects have been going on for all almost four years, in one case, almost five. And at some point, you need to pull off the band aid said, yes, this is a success, all LDCs would be eligible for funding in this. So, we need to be able to scale it up. Or we just say no, that's not going to work. But being in this constant state of the pilot projects, while it's informative, at some point, someone has to have the courage to say we're moving forward, this is going to be scalable. Another recommendation we have is to create an action plan to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy to address quantity quality, and partnership aspects of the labor force going forward. There's some great work that electricity, Human Resources Canada has done. And, you know, DC 28,000, replacement and new jobs in our sector, by 2050 and that's, the electricity sector at large across Canada. And I did some, I think back of the envelope calculations to try to figure out, okay, some assumptions about distribution. And we're looking at close to 10,000 new positions in the sector, over the next 25 years. Every sector is having challenges, filling current jobs, never mind jobs, that we're not even sure what they are quite yet. So we don't necessarily have the right programs at the universities and colleges or private training institutions to start getting the right people and talent into our organization. And, you know, so we need help for that. And, you know, I am encouraged, I saw a little announcement out of the province yesterday to have more electricians down on the Chatham Kent area, because that's the whole greenhouse industry. And so, I said, Okay, that's exciting. So, people are starting to pay attention, but we need it more than just in one local community, it needs to be province wide. And, you know, like I mentioned before, we need to have more conversations about what the funding models are going to be to fund the energy transition. So, these are some of the issues and recommendations that we're taking forward from our vision paper. But day to day, I guess that's the other thing, I want to mention in terms, the change I've seen, I've never seen us work on so many issues, prepare so many submissions, invest so many staff at various tables and working groups. And we love doing all that work. We love representing our members at every table of discussion possible, but I've never seen so many. And they're not just oh, you're there for a month, and you're done. Some of these they are multi year. So, they have longer legs, because they are far more complex. But you know, we're working every day, you know, for members that way. Very, very proud to represent our sector think it's a fantastic sector. And the fact that they're going to play such a pivotal role in the future makes us only want to work harder to make sure we get the best of everything for our membership.
Trevor Freeman 52:54
Yeah, I know, we echo that at our level, we can certainly see a lot more stakeholdering and engagement happening with all players in the sector, but especially the government as they figure out this energy transition to right, let's not, you know, let's not forget that the government needs to figure out where policy needs to go to lead it, and it's a great role that you're playing to kind of bring the voice of the distributors to the government. Because again, as we've talked about a couple of times, we're really on the front lines, and we're hearing from our customers, and we're seeing what needs to change right at that customer level, in order to enable some of this stuff that's happening so that that conversation between the LDCs and the government I think is really important. So you know, we don't work in a vacuum, I just mentioned a number of stakeholders in our sector. And I highlighted the interconnected nature of our grid at the beginning of our conversation. There are a lot of different players working together to really, at the end goal is bring power to the customer. How do you see the existing model changing or expanding in terms of, you know, the kinds of partnerships that LDCs have moving forward? So you know, you mentioned private equity is being a potential upcoming role. There are things like technology companies that are developing innovative solutions, who, you know, we maybe were a bit more arm's length with in the past. There's a changing nature of our relationship with the customers, you brought up the idea of going from one way power flow to kind of two way back and forth. arrangement. How do you see that partnership evolving in the future?
Teresa Sarkesian 54:30
Well, I think the good news is, there's a very strong foundation knowledge to build on. So, I'm going to talk about three different areas. I'm going to talk about sort of shared services across utilities, and I'll talk about a partnership with the private industry. And I'd like to talk about the engagement with customers as well. So firstly, there's lots of shared services going around in the industry already. There are all kinds of partnerships that members are trying to reduce costs for customers and find the best solution. So instead of saying, having 60 utilities run, seek out the best solution, you know, you get everyone working collaboratively to find a solution at the best price for customers. So, we've seen a lot, just in my 15 years I've been there you've got in the past, there was, you know, common delivery of conservation programs, members work together on common engineering standards, lots of mutual aid assistance agreements across among utilities, for Storm Recovery. I've seen shared billing services, bulk purchasing products, and shared control room practices and services. And I've seen private sector play a much bigger role in utilities, as well. I've had the privilege to attend some openings, and launches of micro grids, where you have maybe a solar company and an energy storage, battery company, that are part of that group with utility, creating a micro grid for their community to provide maybe warming and cooling charging services when there's a major outage, for example. And I've seen now, some smart grids, you know, one that's already been implemented up in the north that has a significant private sector partner. And I've seen it also there's a new one, that's another one in the north, that's going to be developed with a private sector partner. And I've seen, not just Ontario businesses, I've seen what businesses come in one of our members is doing a distribution system operator pilot model with a partner in from Norway. So, I'm really encouraged, I think the foundation is already there to kind of build on all those successes we already have, and do more, you know, and we talked about the customers going forward as well, that they're going to be to help playing a role, or we hope they're going to be playing a role. Because there's a lot of energy, battery storage and solar generation, sort of behind the meter, whether it's a farm, or it's a residential customer, or it's a big industrial customer. And so, we want to be able to optimize all of those resources into the system to be of benefit to all customers to reduce costs. But we'd have to give an incentive to those customers to participate, no one is going to let you know a utility access their, you know, solar panel generation or their battery storage, unless they're going to be getting paid to do so. And I think that's going to be really important going forward, because we don't want to over build the grid, I mean, the grid is going to be so big, going forward. And we have to find ways to avoid over building it. Because we don't want to be in a situation where you know, customers are having to pay too much for a grid that's not properly optimized. So trying to find solutions behind the meter, that will maybe either avoid or delay bigger generation investments or transmission investments, or even actually distribution investments, we want to optimize that. But right now, there's not really a lot of permission to do that. So we need to get that legislative and regulatory permission to do that, to turn those, you know, more passive customers into prosumers, that they're basically your their proactive customers by selling their energy storage back to the grid. So I'm really optimistic. I think we've got a great foundation work to do on the customer peace, letting them participate as prosumers and the system, but I'm pretty optimistic that that we can get that job done.
Trevor Freeman 58:27
Yeah, I think it really highlights, there's a lot to be excited about when it comes to the change, that's going to happen. There's a lot of opportunity out there both for the LDCs, for the other stakeholders for our customers, that this energy transition, this change is going to bring about, you know, there's some challenges to I know, he talked about the challenges. I wonder, though, what do you see, as you know, one of the single biggest are a series of risks to achieving the vision that you've outlined in the paper, how could this go off the rails and not happen the way we need it to happen?
Teresa Sarkesian 59:03
Well, I always like to be glass half full as opposed to half empty, but you're taking me down that road? Trevor? So I'm going to answer that question.
Trevor Freeman 59:11
It's my job.
Teresa Sarkesian 59:11
So you know, obviously, our vision for the future role is big, but it's practical. The energy transition is upon us now. It's not something to contemplate for the future. So we think that the biggest risk is effectively inaction or kind of, you know, kicking the issue down the road, 510 years. We're seeing this right, nearby jurisdictions in the US are taking action. There's been significant funding out of the Biden administration, for all kinds of initiatives from you know, cybersecurity, to grid modernization down there. They're doing they're very competitive. They want to attract businesses, to the US. And so, you know, that's a major competition for Ontario. So if we don't seize the opportunities to kind of start working on these important issues now, we could lose economic development opportunities, we could lose jobs, we could lose investment, we could lose our talent as well, that may want to move to another jurisdiction. So to mitigate that risk, the LDCs, and policymakers have to work together on developing a shared vision around electrification and grid modernization, develop a plan of action and create a realistic timeline to turn that vision into reality.
Trevor Freeman 1:00:26
Yeah, it's a it's a great point. And I think it's important for people to understand that change is happening, the change is going to happen, whether we want it to or not. And, you know, often sometimes people say, Are we are we really going to see this change? I think we're already seeing it, we're already seeing customers want to change the way they interact with energy. The risk here is if we don't react quick enough or properly enough, the costs of that change becomes higher the reliability of the grid that we're working with, goes down, that general customer experience is not where it needs to be. And then you've highlighted some other ones, you know, we can really struggle with talent if we're not offering them the kind of cool innovative roles that they're looking for. But the neighboring jurisdiction is, so it's not so much that the change may or may not happen, it's how do we react to it in a way that really serves all of our stakeholder the best. So, Teresa, this has been a really great conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and chat with us today. I think there's a number of things that we talked about today that really set up future conversations I'm going to have nicely. So thanks for the half for teeing that up. And this is your second time on the show. No doubt, there'll be a third time because I think there's a lot more that down the road, we can we can pick apart. So thanks for that. We typically end our interviews here with some common questions to all our guests. So to start off, what is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:01:56
So one I recently enjoyed it's by a friend too. By Darrell Bricker, he wrote Empty Planet, and that is very, very good talks about actually declining global population. And what that means from everything from, you know, businesses to climate change to pension plans. So it's a fascinating read. People have time for it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:19
Yeah, very cool. I'll check that out. So kind of the same question. What's a movie or a show that you'd recommend to everybody?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:02:24
I watched one a few months ago was a Netflix series called the Blue Zone. And it was an investigation on people who had made it to 100 I think they called Central Jamarion’s I can't remember the name. But basically, they interviewed all these people living around the world about what it takes to get to be 100. So I really enjoyed it. It was just, it was just very beautifully done. And the people they talked to, I found fascinating and so interesting. So I really enjoyed it.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:52
Yeah, I also watched that one that was really great. If somebody offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:00
Well, I couldn't pick just one place, Trevor. So maybe I could like, have like around the world trip. But Sydney and Tokyo are places I really want to go to
Trevor Freeman 1:03:09
Have you been there before?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:11
No, no, but I think they look like places. Totally,
Trevor Freeman 1:03:16
Totally. Who is someone that you admire?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:03:18
for years it has been Terry Fox, great. My kids are in a big, I don't want to say Terry Fox phase, but they obviously they learn about Terry Fox a lot at school. And so they often will come home talking about Terry Fox, and we've got a little book that we read about, you know, the story.
That's fantastic that he really is an exemplary Canadian. And if he can only know today, what he has achieved, you know, even though his it wasn't able to make his run across the country, because unfortunately, he passed I think he'd be blown away by the fact that people have kept the memory going. And you even talking about your kids, you know, obviously doing things to support his memory, and his initiatives. And he's just extraordinary to me.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:04
Now, there's definitely a lesson there. And we don't always know the impact that we are having. And we may never know the impact that we're having. long as we're kind of aiming at the right things. Good things will happen. So finally, to wrap it all up, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:23
Firstly, excited about everything. But if I had to sort of pick one, I am very excited about the potential for customers to be pro sellers and engage with the with the energy system. I think that could be absolutely transformative going forward. So I'm excited. And I hope to see that before I retire, that's for sure.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:45
For sure. I mean, I think there's no question. We're going to see lots of change, as we've talked about a lot today. And I'm excited about that, too. So that's great. Teresa, thank you again for coming on the show. I really appreciate it and it's been great chatting.
Teresa Sarkesian 1:04:57
Likewise, thanks so much, Trevor. Really enjoyed Our time together.
Trevor Freeman 1:05:00
Right Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of he thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at [email protected]
-
Decarbonization, the energy transition, and combating the climate crisis are critical to the future of Canadians (and the planet). But we all have different priorities and opinions. In episode 134 of thinkenergy, David Coletto, founder and CEO of Abacus Data, unpacks some of the key issues Canadians face today. Abacus Data is a Canadian market and public opinion research agency, delivering insights to guide policy decisions, messaging, and how to foster collective dialogue about pressing challenges.
Related links
Abacus Data: https://abacusdata.ca/
David Coletto on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%93%8A-david-coletto-%F0%9F%8C%8E-b44a8622/
David Coletto on X: https://twitter.com/DavidColetto
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube
Follow along on Instagram
Stay in the know on Facebook
Keep up with the posts on X
---
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com. Hey, everyone, welcome back. On this show, we often hear from energy experts, whether that's talking about a specific technology or up and coming solutions, or speaking with people that represent organizations who are playing a key role in the energy space. And while that's great, and we could obviously learn a lot from that. It's also important that as we're having those conversations we're doing so with a good understanding of the context around us. By now, I hope we are all very familiar with the concept of knowledge bubbles, because I'm passionate about decarbonisation about the energy transition. And especially because I work in the energy sector. I speak to and hear from a lot of like minded individuals, we share common drivers and use a lot of the same factors to make our decisions. For example, when my own personal heating system, you know, a standard gas furnace was nearing the end of its life about four years ago, switching to a less carbon intensive option was really important to me, and that factored heavily in my decision. Even when my furnace ended up dying in the middle of January, before I had a chance to do all my research and forcing me to make a really quick decision. But I know that not everyone thinks that way. And nor do they have the luxury to think that way. For most folks getting something affordable and quick that provides heat and as easy to use is the most important thing. fuel sources low on the list. And my first appearance on the show when our previous house, Dan asked me why I was interested in taking over his hosting duties. I noted that while I was encouraged that there does seem to be a general consensus around climate change being a real thing. Finally, at least for the majority of Canadians, we as a society are far from aligned on the exact strategies and tools that we need to deploy in order to do something about it. You know, nor is climate change, the only thing going on in the lives of everyday Canadians. There's an affordability problem, there's a housing crisis, we're worried about having an effective health care system. And seeing parts of that, you know, not work so well. The list of things that matter to Canadians is long. And we as a society are not homogeneous in our thinking. So that is why I think today's conversation is really important. David Coletto, holds a PhD in Political Science from the University of Calgary, and is the founder and chair and CEO of abacus data, a Canadian market and public opinion research agency. So David and Abacus have really made it their mission to help all of us better understand what Canadians are thinking and feeling about kind of everything. It's this insight that helps drive policy decisions, messaging, and ultimately how we can best have a collective conversation about our path forward. David, welcome to the show.
David Coletto 03:28
Hey, Trevor, thanks for having me. Great to be here.
Trevor Freeman 03:30
Great. Let's start with the basics. You've described yourself as infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic? First of all, that's a pretty fantastic start to a bio. But help me fill in the blanks here. How did you come to start abacus? How do you maintain that curiosity, passion and optimism?
David Coletto 03:48
So yeah, everyone asked this question like, when did you want to become a pollster? Like, was this something you always wanted to do? And it's funny because it is, I don't know the exact moment. I don't think there was like a light bulb that said, I want to do this. But I think over the course of high school, and then, you know, as I thought about what I wanted to do, after high school, I was really always interested in two things. One is politics. And then two was stats, I was that kid who like, I'm aging myself here a little bit, but I would be no, my parent, my parents, I grew up in Toronto would get the Toronto Star and I would, you know, every morning, open and up during the baseball season and look at the box scores and just be like devouring stats around baseball. And so I think as a pollster, I started in politics and an interest in politics. And, you know, a lot of what I do, looking at the political world, is basically the box scores for politics, you know, who's up who's down how Canadians feel about those political leaders. But that expanded beyond that, over the last 20 years, and I've come to just be someone who's just really interested in and curious about why people do what they do. Why do they think what they think? And I have this amazing job where I get to ask 1000s of Canadians hundreds of questions every week, from anything from politics, all the way to how they feel about work, how they make decisions, on, you know, where they eat out for dinner to stupid stuff that, you know, feels a little fluffy and not that important around, you know, what are they going to do on Valentine's Day? And that, I think, is what keeps me motivated. The optimist in me, I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if it's part genetic art, just, you know, outlook. But I'm always somebody that sometimes drives my team crazy, who will take a situation that's not always positive and say, okay, but what's the upside? And how do we? How do we get over that? And I think as somebody who is, especially over the last number of years, who has been kind of seeing people's reaction to the world around them in a very negative way, I think you almost have to be an optimist to be able to do that. Because it's been a really tough time. And most people's responses to questions these days are negative when it comes to pretty much everything that's going on in the world.
Trevor Freeman 06:15
That transition, I guess, or that following from politics to other issues. I'm curious how that is guided for you and for your organization? Do you follow where the conversations are going? Or do you have a bit of a strategy of, you know, we want to, we want to test this theory, or we want to test this hypothesis, talk us through how you decide what information you're going after?
David Coletto 06:36
I think we're always interested in just helping our clients. Anyone who is consuming our content was interested in why the world works, the way it does, is providing some insight into it. Right? Again, I think we have this, this really unique opportunity as a market research company to tell Canadians what other Canadians are thinking. And I think by understanding each other, I believe, we can find a way to get to whatever goal we want. For some, it's about putting yourself like research puts yourself into other people's shoes for a moment and understanding the world from their perspective, the perceptions that they have, which I think are so important to understanding why they do or think anything else. And being able to pinpoint the thing, or the perspective that comes to shape how other people see things. And so that's what I'm really fascinated by, like digging deeper, and trying to get at the why is the most fascinating and interesting part of my job. And the polls, you know, we always say we started, I started my career, looking at things from a political angle. But politics is only a very tiny portion of the things that we do. And I always like to remind, you know, every audience, whether it's a CEO, who is much more focused on like their profit and loss sheets and try to increase the revenue to the political leaders that I have the privilege of talking to, from time to time, is that every person, I think has three cells, they're at once a consumer, they're at once, especially if they're in the in the labor market, a worker but even if they're retired, or haven't yet entered that labor market, what the work that they did, is still important to who they are, or the work they want to do is important to who they are. And then lastly, they're also voters, or they can be voters. And so those three are interconnected. And that's why I think it's really valuable to see them as those three things and understanding how their views on politics informs the choices they make as consumers and and then how they are able to behave as consumers may also influence the choices they make for where they work, or the demand they have from their workplace, and and the political world as well.
Trevor Freeman 08:59
Yeah, totally. I think that's a great lens to put on things not just for you in the kind of let's call it data business, not for those in the sort of political business or political world, if you will, you know, we think about that and the energy side of things, obviously, our lens is through energy and how what people are doing with it and using it and the decisions are making, but that's not how people look at the decisions in their lives. They don't look at it through that lens. So being able to step outside your bubble, as I kind of mentioned, is really helpful and I think could help all of us no matter the sector we're in so great way to frame that.
David Coletto 09:33
Yeah, and I'm often that like, spark or stimulus that like a leader would bring in to a team and say, okay, David, give us the broad perspective on things because so often, when you like Trevor get to spend most of your time thinking about energy and, and and the policy and how do you deliver it and then all the shifts that might be happening, you're very much an expert, and you develop an expertise, but I am not really an expert. Hi kind of a mini expert on everything, but also bring this really broad perspective that I can, I can tie things together to say the other reason why people are resistant to buying, for example, if I'm an electric vehicle, it's not because they're fundamentally opposed to an energy transition, it's because they're just worried that they're not gonna able to charge it. So if the infrastructure is not there, how do we expect them to be comfortable doing that, or, you know, if you're talking to Albertans, who are the most resistant to moving away from oil and gas and embracing kind of an electrification of the world fundamental because most of their livelihoods are based on an industry that requires extracting oil from the ground and processing it? So when you start to understand the why, like, why do people get to these perspectives, or ultimately, their behaviors, it's often tied to something a little bit deeper. And that gives you, I think, a way to then figure out how to talk to them? How do you persuade them? And how do you most importantly, I think, relate to them? Totally.
Trevor Freeman 10:55
So on that note, you know, data, what you guys are doing, it's useful for decision making, it's useful for informing policy. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, where's that line between pushing a narrative versus understanding what narrative is out there? You know, obviously, you're hired to go get data to help inform different organizations or political entities making their decisions? Is there a line there between getting data and pushing data or pushing a narrative?
David Coletto 11:26
Yeah, I'm often, you know, either often criticized, if anything, because people believe that the polls that we put out in the public domain, for example, are actually influencing public opinion itself. And the evidence of that is minimal. I mean, I don't think there's millions of Canadians who could name abacus data? Or know what the heck we do? Or, or, or have you ever read one of our polls, but I don't, you know, deny that that research at any level of an organization or in the broader kind of conversation we have about society doesn't have an influence. And so when I say like, my vision for abacus is to be the most sought after influential polling firm in Canada. And what I mean by influential is not that we are at ourselves, influencing the direction of policy, but that we're that the quality of our research, and the insights we derive from that research, influences decisions in a positive way. Like, my fundamental goal is to help leaders make better decisions. And I think if your decisions are data driven, if they're evidence based, if they're rooted in understanding your audience, then you can make better, more confident decisions. And so that's what I mean, when I'd say I want to be influential, I don't care. You know, if everybody in the entire country knows who I am, and they want to hear what I have to say, my opinion matters very little. Now, my opinion about what I think the research I do matters, I think is useful. And every researcher brings a unique perspective to the research they do. And I like, I admit, I've got biases, I view the world a certain way. I'm an optimist. And so I'm constantly trying to find the upside of a lot of the stuff that we look at. But I don't believe that, you know, for research to be effective, it's not just, you know, let's go do a bunch of research and write it down on a piece of paper, and it was handed out. I think, and I think where Abacus has been really successful, is that being seen as an effective communicator of what that research means? And helping organizations leaders that whoever action it, do something with it that helps achieve their goals?
Trevor Freeman 13:43
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so obviously, one of the reasons I want you on here is to talk about energy, climate change, decarbonisation, et cetera. Before we dive too deep into some of the specific research you've done, let's talk kind of high level about some of the evolving trends that you may have seen over the last number of years when it comes to Canadians perspectives on those items, you know, help us understand where we've been going these last couple of years and where we are today?
David Coletto 14:12
Well, I think let's start with a step back and look at the broad kind of mindset that I think is important to understand then how people's views of these issues evolve over time. I think we have seen over the course of five years, a rapid shift in the mindset of the general public that has been informed and influenced by a whole ton of external events. Right. So pre pandemic, I think headed, you know, the end of 2019 going into 2020, the public in Canada, Ontario, and Ottawa was very much and I think I'm cautiously optimistic kind of friend, right? Things were okay. The economy was doing okay. Interest rates were very low relative to where they are today. And then the pandemic happened and you had this immediate flip in the mindset to one where most people at least in those first four months of the pandemic, the mindset was fear, didn't know what this meant, we were told to stay home, we didn't know how bad it was going to get, or whether we were gonna get infected, and what it meant for our family, our jobs, you name it. Soon after that, though, I think it became clear that okay, we can control it, we know a little bit more about this virus. And we entered into a kind of a roller coaster of fear and relief, fear and relief, as those case numbers went up and down. Coming out of the pandemic, though, and I think the defining mindset up today, which is really important to understand, to then understand why people will be resistant to certain public policy choices on climate or may not be ready to fully embrace the transition is that most Canadians right now, and I say most, I mean, like 80 to 90% of them, I believe, have a mindset that's very much tied to scarcity. And that is, that is a real shift. And what that means is that a lot of the things that people have come to expect that they can get in their lives are either more expensive, or harder to find or get, or they fear losing what they already have. And those are often tied to issues like housing, the general cost of living and health care. And so that mindset then causes us to view public policy decisions, broader economic forces, and our day to day lives through a very different lens than one where I described as there's plenty of everything, right. And having a good mindset means I can take risks, I can perhaps pay a little bit more, even if the perception is that I pay more, even if it's not true, in order to achieve other kinds of goals. But when I'm the perception of struggling everyday just to get the kind of life I want, or the one in three Canadians who feel like they've completely fallen behind, that is going to make it much harder for me to be persuaded to do things that feel like a big change or feel like they're going to disrupt my life more than it already is. Now, if we expand that, and then we say, okay, so how do we overlay that onto views around the broader issues around climate change, energy transition? I think what's clear in the long term trends is the vast majority, 90 plus percent of Canadians believe climate change is real and is caused by human behavior. overwhelming majorities believe that we, that's actually a crisis that we have to do something about. And in the shorter term, the last I would say, 12 to 18 months as a result of you and me, Trevor, I don't know about you I grew up in, you know, in Ontario, I never once in my entire life, stepped out on a June morning, and saw smoky skies, and you know, take my dog for a walk and bring her home and she smells like smoke. That was never part of my experience. My wife grew up in Alberta, much more likely to happen in Western Canada over time. So I think there's also become a realization that's firmed up that if we don't do something about this, that it's going to have not just theoretical consequences for the earth, but actual implications for my life, I won't be able to do certain things, my health might be compromised, the value of my property might be at risk, I may not be able to ensure, and so that I think has created far more desire or demand to see action. But what's muted it, at least in the short term, is that scarcity mindset where people have basically said, including young people, which is the most fascinating thing is, people often assume younger Canadians are more likely to, you know, say climate change is a priority for the first time in probably ever that I've tracked this, we now have younger Canadians, if you're under 30, you're the least likely to say climate change is one of your top three priorities. Interesting. And that's because other issues, like housing, like economic security, like the cost of living, have overtaken them. And so short term fear of short term scarcity, as at least for now push down fears about the longer term scarcity that climate change will create.
Trevor Freeman 19:07
As we see more of these, in a really defining event, it's interesting, you bring up you know, walking out your door and seeing that weird yellow hue of smoke that we've never experienced before. As we see more of these defining events, does that override that short term, kind of, I don't want to say short term thinking as a pejorative sense, but like override that, you know, looking to tomorrow and remind us that like there's something bigger here happening.
David Coletto 19:34
I think they could. I think every instance of it and you know, what's unfortunate, is that these events, whether they're wildfires or floods or other extreme weather events are now common. And they're happening everywhere and across the country. So from a purely like 'what's going to motivate and mobilize people to change their behavior and demand' action? Yeah, that's there's no doubt those are going to be a stimulant on that kind of behavior and action. But I still, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, depending on what you're asking about, or how you're framing it. These moments are not severe enough that they're, you know, that's not like the pandemic, which affected everybody, could affect everybody and forced us to all change everything about our lives. I don't think climate change has reached anywhere near that moment yet. And the other thing about it, and this is a defining feature of Canada right now, is that it's a politically divisive issue. There's no issue in Canada that divides the political spectrum, if you're on the conservative side, or the Liberals, the NDP side, is the issue of climate change. And it's not to say conservatives don't believe it's happening or don't fundamentally care about it. They're just not, they're just far, far less likely to put it as a priority. And so there's no consensus on what we do about it, what's the best policy choices, and how fast we need to go? And, and so we're still arguing about these things, which means, as a typical average person watching all of this happen, if the people in charge of making these decisions can't agree, well, then maybe it's not time for me to kind of line up and and do something about it, which I think is what part of the problem right now.
Trevor Freeman 21:23
Yeah, I think it's that divide between the number of people a percentage of the population that really firmly believes and sees this as a problem, like you said, and really knows we need to do something about it, compared to the various amps, which are probably evenly split on what that is, what do we do? It's hard to create policy, and it's hard to create ways forward, when we can agree on what we want to do. Something that I found really interesting, and this is going back a bit, I'm curious, in light of what we were just talking about, whether you see this as changed as there is this overwhelming idea that Canadians want to be seen as environmentally conscious, we want to be seen as leaders in that sustainability, renewable energy field. And I'm thinking about the findings you published back in 2020. So three and a half years ago, now, just the early days of the pandemic. And, you know, I can relate to the idea of Canadians wanting to be seen as virtuous leaders, I was, you know, fresh out of university and traveling the world and you want to put that shiny Canadian image forward. Tell us about that idea of how we want to be seen as, as the leaders and doing the right thing. Where does that come from? What drives that in, in our kind of national ethos? Or am I pulling something that's not there?
David Coletto 22:45
Yeah, no, I think it is there. And I think every country, by the way, there's a nationalism, a pride that, whether you were, you know, like, if you and I asked questions like that, in the UK, you know, Brits will want the UK to be seen as progressive on environmental issues are at least, you know, not seen as like, deeply polluting. And I think, part of the psyche of Canadians and I would say Canadians outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan, because I think those two provinces because of their reliance, and how important the oil and gas sector is, to those economies view this issue differently than, say, folks in Ontario, or Quebec, in particular, is that, you know, Canadians often have this like sense of superiority, certainly, compared to our American friends sound South totally. And the environment is one of those issues that we think we are better, or we should be better. And I shouldn't say we are better, but we believe we should be better. And I like that aspiration. Like, I think there's that desire for us, broadly speaking, to do our part, to be seen as leaders on this issue. But, I mean, I think there's limits to that perspective on then, okay, but are we all looking to, you know, change our behavior or, you know, adopt, you know, get rid of our furnace and put in a heat pump or, you know, change our gas powered vehicles to either a hybrid or an EV? No, we know, that's not happening as fast as it could happen. And so, it's one thing to believe it and want it and it's another thing to do it yourself. That being said, I do think from a public policy perspective, that we do want our leaders to be aspirational to, and to be, you know, looking to, to move the needle. But I think this is where your question about life was three and a half years ago, different from today, three and a half years ago, we didn't have the same mindset. So today if I ask people, What would you rather focus, reducing the cost of living making it easier for people to live their life day to day or relentlessly focusing on reducing emissions and moving to cars? I would say maybe two thirds would say, make my life easier first. And then I can get to the other thing. And so I think the more recent times have probably shifted that perception to some extent, but still want us to be leaders. But you know, they will want policymakers to coerce us into changing our behaviors.
Trevor Freeman 25:18
For sure. So with that in mind, with that context, moving a little bit forward in time, you're a little closer to today. Just last fall, September, you released findings that talked about Canadians' interest in energy efficient housing. So let's get a little bit more granular here. Talk about what Canadians feel about their own homes and what they're looking for.
David Coletto 25:40
Yeah, it was really my colleague, Edie Shepherd who did this research. And we were really interested in understanding particularly given all the conversations about housing affordability and the housing crisis. And you know, that some see as a real opportunity for us, as we build millions of new homes over the next number of years, we should probably be focused on making sure that they're as efficient as they can and, and, and help us tackle our need to reduce emissions and the climate crisis. And I would say that most Canadians 60% say that it's important that the home that they buy next is energy efficient. Very few say it's not important, there's a degree of difference, there's probably some we're gonna be like, I want to make sure it is and there'll be some that will likely say I wish it was but maybe if it costs me a few, you know, 10 grand more, I may not be able to afford it, but my intention is to see that it's there. And what's really interesting is when we asked people okay, you know, why would you want it? What are the upsides? Well, there is a perception that a more efficient owner will save the money. There is a broad understanding that it's going to future proof their home from future increases in the cost of energy. And there's the moral imperative that they think it's important to do it so that we can reduce our impact. Now, what are the barriers while they're the same? It's almost like the upside is the affordability. But the barrier is also affordability half who say, Okay, well, what would prevent you from doing it? Say, well, the upfront cost, the perception of the upfront cost is a big barrier to it. The fear that it may require more maintenance, like if you're putting solar panels on your roof, what does that mean? Do I have to maintain it? Is that going to be more costly? And then there's also a concern about just the availability of the actual energy efficient homes in the places that they live. So what it signals, though, to us is there's an intent, I think that almost everybody understands that it would be better if we all could live in a more energy efficient home. But there's these trade offs, these pushes and poles that I think are completely rational and natural for people to have, but are based on a lot of perceptions that may not be actually rooted into reality.
Trevor Freeman 28:03
Yeah. And it's great, great insight. I wonder, how do we take that? Or what impact does that have on decision making about future policy? And so I'm specifically thinking about, like the caning government's greener homes grant, which was a program to provide people with no interest loans, and in some cases, incentives to upgrade their home with clean technology, let's call it that which is oversubscribed, and they ran out of money. Does this inform policy of what comes next? Is it Is there something in there about helping people connect the dots between we'll lower that upfront cost for you, we'll have a program to lower the upfront cost, you get all those same benefits that you care about the affordability side that, you know, moral side of things to talk to us a little bit about how we connect the dots there.
David Coletto 28:52
Well I mean, the fact that was oversubscribed, as a proof that there's demand out there. That people are willing to do these things, if you lower the barriers to allow them to do it. And the cost is a big one. So and that's normal, and it's good public policy to try to incentivize the behavior you want to see and disincentivize the behavior you don't. So like, my advice to policymakers is, if you think this is important, and I'm no expert on what we have to do to achieve our emission targets and to get this issue under control. But home retrofits and increasing the efficiency of our homes, which I believe in what I've read is a big contributor. Right? Both commercial and residential properties are a big contributor to emissions, so if the incentive isn't an effective and efficient way of doing it, then we should continue to do it because it's clear people will do it. We also see for example, if I just take away from housing and residential energy use, and then I just use EVs as another example. And while there's some debate right now over whether EV demand is going to continue. But there's no doubt that provinces that have been more generous with their rebates for people who buy an electric vehicle, have seen a higher uptake in EVs go back to NBC, outright lead the country. And it's not like it's warmer in Quebec than it is in Ontario. There's a policy decision and choice that was made that has changed people's behavior. So I think we, you know, we, especially at a time when people are feeling that pinch and that squeeze, there's, there's benefit. Now, the problem also is, and this is bringing it back to the public policy lens a little bit as governments have been spending a ton of money. And so there's increased pressure on them to reduce their spending and try to manage their budget a little bit better. But, you know, priorities, I guess I'll say, and for many climate changes should be the, if not the most important thing, at least near the top.
Trevor Freeman 30:58
Yeah, and I guess, I mean, part of, we're kind of going back and forth between talking about climate change in the context of everything, and then, you know, dialing into specific things. If you focus in with people on, you know, within this issue of climate change, what's your barrier to getting a heat pump or an EV? And that affordability might be the upfront cost. But then if you zoom out and look at the more macro lens, you know, should the government be spending money on that, in particular, is that the most important thing for the government to spend money on? Maybe the answer changes, maybe, because then you're looking at it in the context of all those other issues that are also important to people.
David Coletto 31:34
Yeah. And just to drill down even further, in that study we did in September, we asked people in Canada, how interested they would be, and a very specific set of changes they could make to their home. Right things like, you know, high levels of insulation, to LED lighting, to even a geothermal heat pump, which I suspect most people don't really understand the science behind, or know how that would even work. But what we learned is that the vast majority of Canadians are at least open minded about making these changes to their home. So they're not like there's no like, deep, except for a small segment of the population's deep ideological or emotional negativity towards a sustainable behavior. It's just how do you get people over the barriers that exist? In them actually doing it. And cost is one simple understanding, accessibility of the service. And obviously, you know, an organization like hydro Ottawa has a role to play, and you do a big, important role in helping you know, consumers in the city. Think about their energy consumption as you try to help us conserve and be more energy efficient.
Trevor Freeman 32:45
Yeah, for sure, I kind of want to pull on that thread a little bit. So as you noted, like, you know, an organization like Hydro Ottawa, we're kind of on the front lines with our customers, we have that one to one relationship with them. Sometimes all that is just a bill in the mail, but they know that we are involved in energy. And, and we take it upon ourselves, we think it's important to help our customers understand energy, help them understand that, you know, part of the sector. We're going about that, and as we're talking about, especially the energy transition, what does your data mean? What can we learn from that in terms of how we engage and in the messages we bring to our customers? And I'm asking specifically thinking about an article you shared, just last week, which talked about whether carbon pricing as a policy is suffering from a failure to properly communicate. So, you know, that's kind of two pieces there, the Hydro Ottawa piece, as well as that, you know, maybe weaving all together for us.
David Coletto 33:47
Yeah, I mean, I could spend an hour talking to you about, you know, public understanding of, you know, science and climate change and carbon pricing, but the short version is, you have to assume that most people have little understanding of how things work. And I often use the analogy of, of a car and let's use an EV because that's on brand for this conversation, but like most people would know how to drive that EV but they have no understanding of how the energy is produced from the battery and it works to like turn the pistons I don't even know if there's distance in an EV. Right, there's probably not there's not that combustion engine, whatever. I don't need to know that. I just need to know how to drive it. Yeah. And so I think that the lesson there is, and the carbon tax or price is a good example of that. I don't believe that the federal government ever did the work it needed to do to explain to people why. And sometimes it's shocking how little people even understand basic principles like supply and demand that if you raise the price of something, people are going to be disincentivized from buying it or you doing that activity because it costs more. In the case of, you know, carbon price, that's the whole incentive activity that produces emissions, we want to make it more expensive, so people do less of it. But I've done focus groups, you know, years ago. But I don't think there's been a renaissance and understanding where people didn't basically understand why we raised the price of, of carbon or an emission like that. But then you've complicated it by giving that money back, which I think is a good goal, because it's really you're trying to signal a price and trying to get those who consume a lot of energy that produces emissions to reduce that as much as they can. That even in our research, most people who received a rebate, didn't know why they received it. And then when we asked them, okay, well, if this program was eliminated, and keep in mind, the fact is, most Canadians do receive at least close to or as much rebate as they would likely spend from the tax or the price. They thought they would still be better off if that just disappeared. Which tells me that that communication, and not assuming that people, you know, all watch the news or spend a lot of their own time actively looking at information. And even if they are, they may not get good information, because there's so much misinformation out there, that organizations actually have to spend a lot more time explaining and communicating. And look, I think one of the simplest and best things that Hydro Ottawa does as a consumer, as a customer of Hydro Ottawa is like when I can log on online, and you're giving me some insight into what is consuming the energy in my home, right? Like, you're like, you likely use your, you know, washing machine and your dishwasher. And, and that allows me at least to understand the implication of that choice. And if I want to reduce my energy consumption, I suspect most people want to do it because I just want to save money, then you're giving me the power through information to do it. So I think there's a lot of value in communication and just public education. It's really hard for me to say, but I think it is proven to be essential in getting people to change behaviors, away from things they've done for most of their lives.
Trevor Freeman 37:21
Yeah, it's great insight, it's something that we are constantly thinking of is, how do we relate this thing that's important and that everybody would agree is important to people's day to day lives, because they don't spend all the time thinking about it, they've got other things on their mind, other things that are important to focus on. So great insight. I want to zoom out one more time quickly here and talk about, you know, data that you published in 2022, about our energy system as a whole. So the federal government has said by 2035, all electricity production in Canada should be emissions free, on the whole Canadians completely agree. So you have data that says eight and 10 80% of Canadians believe a clean energy system would be more affordable and more secure than a fossil fuel system. I was pleasantly surprised to see that. I'll be honest. Tell us a little bit about that. And what else did you find in that study?
David Coletto 38:17
Well, I think this comes off of obviously, the invasion of Ukraine from Russia, which raised a lot of discussion, not just about the affordability of energy, because of how that conflict, you know, spiked natural gas prices and really hit Europe hard. But also a sense of energy or energy security. And so we wanted to understand, do people recognize and understand the risks actually involved, and the opportunities not just from a purely climate lens, but from an affordability security lens? And this is a really important conversation? Because I think it recognizes that not all people come at an issue with the same perspective, right? If you're somebody who doesn't believe that climate change is an absolute priority, well, then you've got to find another way to get them to behave or change their behavior, or at least agree on an outcome that might be for a different reason, but gets us to the same outcome either way. And I think what we learned from this research is that when you ask people, for example, you know, which do you think is more affordable, a clean energy system that would include hydro, wind, solar power and electric vehicles, or a fossil fuel energy system? So think oil, natural gas, coal, gas powered cars. Two of three, say I think that a clean energy system is going to be more affordable and an almost same number 68% Say, I also think it's going to be more secure. And now, that's not a consensus. I think it's getting close to one. There's still a third of people who say no, no, I think kind of those, those legacy fossil fuel driven systems are both more secure and more affordable. But I wish we had asked this question, you know, 10 years ago, but I suspect if I had, you would have probably seen a complete reversal. Right? Yeah, it would have been the opposite. And so we have seen, I think a change in people's perspective and global events have pushed us there. It just tells me that at this base level of people's understanding and belief that they think if we do everything right, these things will be better for me, and better for our country and better for the world. And that we just need to now deliver and execute on that, I think, as both policy and in the day to the lives that people are experiencing.
Trevor Freeman 40:38
Uh huh. So thinking about the change in technology and the changing landscape, we've talked about how the energy system is changing. We've talked about the impact of the pandemic, and the fact that you and I are, you know, sitting having this conversation over video chat, which is not that common, even four or five years ago. How is that progression and technology, changing the way that you gather data and understand where Canadians are at is disrupting your industry? Like it is other industries?
David Coletto 41:10
Yeah, in every way. I am too young to remember the golden years of market research and survey research. But there was a time when you know, and everybody has a phone, but not everybody answers that phone, when you could call households. And most people, almost everybody would pick up the phone. And then of those who picked up the phone, at least half or so would answer your survey. Now, you know, everybody has a phone, but almost nobody picks it up if they don't know who's calling. And that's forced the industry to respond. How people communicate, and how they don't communicate is tied to how then we can reach them and collect information from them. And so what we've seen in market research is almost an entire shift towards online research. I'll spare you the detailed nerd conversation about how we do that. But I would say most 90% of the research Abacus does, for example, is done online in some way. Whether it's recruiting, you know, the general population, when we do a poll of Canadians through a number of different panels that have recruited people, from time to time take surveys, or whether we're doing employee studies, or customer studies, using lists through email, or text messaging. But what's important is, despite all that change, I think our industry has been pretty good at being able to continue to engage people, response rates dropped, it's like people don't want to share their opinions as much as they used to. So that's a problem for us. And the most important thing as a researcher is to ensure that those who can take part in research are not fundamentally different from those who don't. And I don't think we're there yet. But it's something that- if there's anything that keeps me up at night about research, is that right? Is there going to be a moment when you know, Trevor, I don't know if you answer surveys when you're called or whatever. But if you do, and everybody who does shares the same kind of perspectives, socio economic backgrounds, demographics, and the people who don't answer surveys are completely different. And all those, then the surveys won't be representative, they won't represent the populations we're looking to understand. So yeah, technological change is changing everything. And the big, big thing I've been thinking about is what role does AI play in the market research industry? I think there's going to be a lot of benefits in terms of being able to synthesize large amounts of data, you know, being more efficient. But the impact that it has on how we collect information, I don't think is fully understood yet.
Trevor Freeman 43:42
Anything that's really surprised you and in your research, anything that's really jumped out that you've said, holy smokes, that's not what I expected.
David Coletto 43:49
I think it's - not really I am never I'm rarely surprised these days, because I'm, I'm so inundated and constantly kind of looking at data that you almost you're almost anticipate where things are going before they get there, though, what's interesting to me is that people aren't dumb. And then that's not to say that's surprising. Oh, my God, people aren't dumb. But I think sometimes there's an assumption that, you know, most people - I'm not saying most people are dumb, but they aren't paying attention. And there's a lot of people who don't pay attention to a lot of things. But I do think that most people are thinking about how they reconcile all of the things that are going on in the world and in their life. And I think climate change is now part of the conversation that's regularly there. And that to me is going to make it easier for us to achieve that thing you just said right, that that's the first step in getting people to change their behaviors and to embrace change is for them to recognize that a problem exists. And so step one has been there for a while. And I think that's going to accelerate step two, so I didn't answer your question. She does. I am rarely surprised by her about pretty much anything these days. But I am pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful some most people can be about things if you give them the chance to be.
Trevor Freeman 45:20
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that's, I guess, aspirationally I like to think, you know, in my part of Hydro Ottawa, and what we do in engaging with customers, it's keeping that in mind and remembering we are trying to understand things in our customers lens, what matters to them. And like I said earlier. You know, my head is in this it's in, it's going through the lens of energy all the time. And that's not the case for everybody. So keeping in mind that yeah, people are diligent and paying attention and thinking about things that are important to them. And that just may be slightly different from the rest of us. So to kind of wrap it up here, we typically end with a series of questions that we asked most of our guests. So I'm going to fire the match here and see what you think. You're on the receiving end now of data gathering, I guess you can say. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
David Coletto 46:16
Oh, man, I read like eight books at once. And so remembering what I'm reading? Oh, that's a tough question for me.
Trevor Freeman 46:26
But what's a book that you've read in the last month that you think everyone should read down? I'll narrow it down for you?
David Coletto 46:31
I think, okay, it's not in the last month. I'll start by answering that, okay. So a book that I think helps explain so much of the world right now is called Prius or Pickup. It's by two American political scientists. But it's not like a nerdy academic thick book. And it basically argues that there are two primary worldviews, but they are fixed and fluid, and that so much of the political division in the United States, but so much of the consumer behavior we see, is affected by that worldview. So Prius and Pickup are like the choice between vehicles. And it changed my thinking around persuasion about communication, because it basically argues that most people, and I think it's true in Canada as it is in the US, or anywhere else around the world, start a journey with a particular base assumption about the world. And if you understand those assumptions, you then understand how to persuade them.
Trevor Freeman 47:36
Very cool. Is there a movie or a show that you've watched recently that you would recommend everyone take a look at?
David Coletto 47:43
Hmm well, I love Succession. It's been a while since it ended, but if you haven't seen it, it's brilliant TV. It makes you mad. You hate all the characters, but there's something really compelling about the writing. I really love that. And then my guilty pleasure is Curb Your Enthusiasm, which and it's in its final season right now, as we record this.
Trevor Freeman 48:09
Awesome. I can't agree more with both of those. If someone offered you a free round trip, anywhere in the world, where would you go?
David Coletto 48:18
I am a cyclist. And I usually travel with my bike. Road cyclist. So anywhere in the world, I would say, you know, I think because I have never been I would love to go to places like New Zealand or Australia and explore on two wheels, either of those places. And yeah, that's where I go.
Trevor Freeman 48:40
Cool. Who's someone that you admire?
David Coletto 48:43
Oh, man. Good question. Dude, why admire? So many? It's like, what do I - how do I frame this? These are hard questions. If you know what, recently I had someone who's like, actively involved in politics, in terms of like, public opinion, and being part of that conversation. I increasingly admire anybody, anybody, and I'm not going to pay any political support like partisan brushes or political parties, anyone who puts their name forward to run for political office these days. I admire that because it is a thankless and difficult job. And whether it's our Mayor or Premier or Prime Minister, you can disagree on the decisions they're making, you can dislike them as people if you want. But yeah, I think we should admire the fact that they have chosen to do something that is a pretty horrible job.
Trevor Freeman 49:38
Yeah, well said. And finally, is there anything kind of about the energy sector, its future that you're particularly excited about, or really keenly interested in?
David Coletto 49:50
I am an eternal optimist about human ingenuity. I'm not somebody who thinks like the end is coming and it's all going to go to hell. I actually think that we will find, and we have probably found the solutions that are going to help solve this problem. And so what excites me the most I think is, you know, I am excited for the day. I really am when I step on an airplane that is entirely powered by a non emitting fuel of some sort. I don't know when that's going to be, I don't know how long it's going to take. But I think if we achieve that, then I think we will have solved a lot of the other things and I I don't think it's that far away.
Trevor Freeman 50:29
I mean, as your bio says, infinitely curious, passionate and eternally optimistic. I think that that sums it up pretty well. David Colletto, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I really appreciate the conversation too, Trevor. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at [email protected]
-
Saknas det avsnitt?
-
The energy transition will define the sector for decades. And smart, passionate people are needed across the industry—leaders and innovative thinkers to chart the path forward. In his first episode hosting thinkenergy, Trevor Freeman gives the future workforce a voice, chatting with two engineering interns about what a career in energy means to them. Listen in as Alana Jones from Envari Energy Solutions and Priscilla Lacerda from Hydro Ottawa share their experiences.
Related links
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
Envari Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Alana Jones on LinkedIn: n/a
Priscilla Lacerda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/priscillalacerda/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube
Follow along on Instagram
Stay in the know on Facebook
Keep up with the posts on X
-----
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Hi, welcome to thinkenergy podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the frontlines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and even up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you've got thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics that we should cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us at thinkenergy@ hydroottawa.com. Hi, everyone, this is Trevor Freeman here. This is my first official show without the training wheels. Just as a reminder, your regular host, Dan, is hanging up the lapel mic, actually, it's a big giant microphone - go bigger go home, I guess. And I'm stepping in to try and fill his shoes. The consistent thing though, is that the goal of the show continues to be to explore the fast changing world of energy through conversations with smart people doing cool things. Today on the show, we're going to talk about the energy workforce of the future. So this show is featured a number of conversations about the energy transition, which is arguably already underway. And this massive shift will really be the defining feature of this sector for at least the next couple of decades. Like any other massive project or societal change, in order to do it properly. We need great people. We need smart, passionate people in all areas of the sector to help us move forward into uncharted territory. A career in energy is really an exciting, dynamic pathway and a great way to contribute to meaningful change. But obviously, I'm a little biased, so I wanted to talk to two people who are earlier in their journey. It's great timing for this conversation because March is both National Engineering Month here in Canada, and we've just celebrated International Women's Day. Joining me today are two smart, young engineering interns working in the energy space. Alana Jones has had a number of roles with Hydro Ottawa, and currently works for Envari Energy Solutions, a Hydro Ottawa affiliate. Priscilla Lacerda joined Hydro Ottawa as an intern last year, Alana and Priscilla, welcome to the show.
Alana Jones 02:10
Hi, Trevor. Thanks for having us.
Priscilla Lacerda 02:12
Hi, Trevor. Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 02:14
Alright, let's get started by learning a little bit about you both. Priscilla, why don't we start with you? Could you tell us a little bit about where you went to school and what you studied and really how you ended up working in the energy sector?
Priscilla Lacerda 02:25
Sure. So I'm originally from Brazil and completed my studies there. I have a Bachelor in Electrical Engineering and an MBA Diploma in Business Management. While I was at the university, I tended to work in an affiliated company and spent around six and a half years there. Eventually, I decided to immigrate to Canada. And because I used to work in energy fields in my home country, I researched a lot about Hydro Ottawa and ended up being selected to work as an engineering intern last year.
Trevor Freeman 02:54
That's great. Well, I'm glad that we got you to join us from Brazil. And I think your experience in you know, both in Brazil's energy sector as well as here in Canada is going to be really beneficial both for you and for us. Alana, maybe the same question for you. Tell us a little bit about how you got started in the energy sector.
Alana Jones 03:12
Yeah, so I studied chemical engineering. I come from a large mining community. And that was the initial plan to work as a metallurgical engineer. However, once I graduated, I was a young 20 year old looking for a more exciting city than Sudbury Ontario had to offer. So I relocated to Ottawa. My brother was here, and I've always loved this city. I realized pretty quickly, however, that it was a lot harder to find a role in chemical engineering than it was in Sudbury. So I started working in restaurants and pubs to pay the bills. Plus, it was fun, the money was great. But fast forward five years, and I knew that I needed to actually use my degree and find a career. So I really liked Ottawa, I knew I wanted to stay here. I just didn't really know how to make that happen. So I contemplated Teachers College. And then one day on the radio, I heard about an exciting opportunity. It was a program that Algonquin College was running to get more women into the trades. They were calling on women with engineering science or math degrees to take their fast tracked electrical engineering technologists program. So the perks were wonderful. They offered free laptops, work boots, and what I found most appealing was an opportunity for a Co-Op with a local utility. So I ended up doing my four month Co-Op with Hydro One. And it was a great way to break into the industry and actually see the utility business and how it was run. And that same year I graduated from the program at Algonquin I got hired on as any it with Hydro Ottawa, so I feel like everything just worked out really well.
Trevor Freeman 04:41
Awesome. It's great to hear about the different kinds of unique pathways that people take to get to where they are on them. That's not unique to the energy sector but still interesting to hear. So let's dive a little bit deeper into what you guys do today. Alana will stick with you. Help us understand what it is you do in your role and you know, tie that back to how that relates to your engineering studies?
Alana Jones 05:02
Sure, my current role is with the Envari electrical team. My main focus is electric vehicle infrastructure projects and energy studies for buildings. As you know, there's a massive push for electrification of vehicles. And the government has mandated that all vehicles sold as of 2035 will be electric. So we see huge numbers of people wanting to get a head start on having that infrastructure available to support their future EV needs. We work with government agencies, many car dealerships, condo, apartment buildings, airports, even companies looking to convert their full fleets over. So my role is to perform the initial assessment on a building to determine if they have enough electric capacity to install any EV chargers at all, and what their options are as far as installation size and what that would look like with respect to their building layout. Our team helps provide guidance on the type of charger and system that would be most suitable for their needs. And there really are so many options, whether it's fast charging, or rapid charging, or if they want to allow public use or private so you get into a whole list of options that clients often need guidance on. And sometimes we actually see that buildings don't have enough capacity to support their electric vehicle infrastructure needs. And as one example, if the transformers are too small to support additional power loads, in that case, we can recommend a service upgrade to get them where they need to be for future electrification. Sometimes, that means designing a surface upgrade before charger installation to ensure that the building will have enough power to support the needs. And that means sizing the service accurately as well to reflect the current and projected needs. So these are expensive upgrades we're talking about. And they should last decades to come. The last thing you want to do as an engineer is install something too small, to find out 10 years down the road that the building needs more power, or if you oversize a service, it ends up just costing much more than it needs to. And I guess the last part of my role is the actual implementation of these chargers. So once any service upgrade is done if it's needed, the group can begin managing the installation, so sourcing the chargers and electrical contractor to do the work. And a big part of my role is making sure all parties are kept in the loop and the project remains on time and budget so that it can be as simple as possible for the client.
Trevor Freeman 07:09
Great. Thanks for that. We'll come back to that in a minute. But Priscilla, over to you, kind of the same question. Tell us about what you do specifically and kind of how that relates to your engineering experience.
Priscilla Lacerda 07:21
Yeah, so basically, I prepare and maintain a portfolio of business performance measures for our electricity distribution division. Alongside my supervisor, we identify opportunities to improve internal and external processes, and also analyze financial data. As you are well aware of, as a utility, we are regulated by the Ontario Energy Board. So it's imperative to keep our processes and analysis well documented. And that's the importance of my role and department and how it relates to my engineering studies.
Trevor Freeman 07:51
Great. I mean, those are just two examples that you guys both gave about, you know, the number of different roles within the utility sector. And it's a, you know, a pretty wide range of things that have to happen in order for us to deliver the service that we do and make sure that we're providing value for our customers. So thanks for that. Maybe kind of a follow up question on that. Anything that surprised you so far in your role here at Hydro Ottawa, and Envari, for you, Alana.
Alana Jones 08:20
Um, I would say the most surprising thing I've found is that everyone really wants you to succeed. I've been really, really lucky in my various roles, having managers and supervisors with a ton of experience to be able to coach me and support me in whatever ways they can. Our group at Envari is so diverse in their knowledge and backgrounds. So they offer, each person offers a specific skill set that they're willing to share with everyone. And anytime I need help or support, there's always someone willing to take that time out of their own busy schedule to support me. And I really love that. I mean, sometimes we spend more time with our co-workers than our own families. So I think it's important to have a nice working environment and to feel supported. And I've been lucky enough to have had that experience throughout my career.
Trevor Freeman 09:02
Great. That's awesome to hear. Priscilla, what about you?
Priscilla Lacerda 09:04
To be honest with you, in my specific case, because most of my experience was in my home country, one surprise that I had was that here in Canada, each province regulates its electrical system separately, and has their own model. While in Brazil, all the utilities are nationally regulated by one energy board.
Trevor Freeman 09:22
Yeah, it's certainly a complex landscape that I think, you know, folks outside of the sector don't always appreciate and you know, they don't need to worry about that, because we worry about it, but it is a complex regulatory sector. So Priscilla will stay with you. I'd like to dive a little bit deeper into your role in what you do. You talked about your role in reporting on grid performance. So that's our outage and reliability reporting, as well as financial reporting related to grid operations. Tell us why that's important for a distribution company like Hydro Ottawa.
Priscilla Lacerda 09:55
As I mentioned before, Hydro Ottawa is regulated by the Ontario Energy Board, so it's crucial to maintain a reliable and cost effective grid. Our primary objective as a distribution company is with the customers. As we continually strive to improve performance for our customers, we need to maintain quality data to derive critical business insights and make informed business decisions.
Trevor Freeman 10:18
Great. So following up on that, do you see, you know, smart technology or AI or anything else coming in and, you know, changing the way that we report in the future?
Priscilla Lacerda 10:31
Yes, I see smart technologies and the blockchain is doing proof predictive analysis, and also anticipating potential issues and trends in the grid performance. Also, smart grids enable real time monitoring of various aspects of grid operations. And that's extremely beneficial as it will provide more up to date data.
Trevor Freeman 10:52
Great. Alana, we're gonna jump over to you here and kind of do the same thing, dig a little bit deeper into what your previous answer was. So you mentioned things like EV charging infrastructure for some of our customers that own large buildings. Are you seeing more of our customers look to what we might call, you know, emerging technologies to meet their own needs or the needs of their own customers or building occupants?
Alana Jones 11:15
Yeah, good question. We are seeing many, many people come to us to see what their options are for the implementation of EV chargers. If you are an EV driver looking to buy a condo in the city, having that infrastructure at home to charge is a must. And every year more and more people are driving EVs. So definitely, I would say building owners are looking to the future of electrification of vehicles and accommodating their building occupants. And we also see a huge push from dealerships to get chargers installed, whether they have requirements they need to meet, or whether they want to be the ones to get their hands on the latest EV models first. They are really interested in having that infrastructure already in place to accommodate current and future needs for it. There's also a goal, I think, not to be behind the eight ball when the time comes. And when everyone is rushing to get it done. So 2035 isn't that far away. And year after year, the increase in EV sales jumps, so getting your establishment ready for that, I think, is a must. And the last bit is funding. It's a huge early adoption incentive and government funding isn't going to be around forever. And as a company, we're able to secure a ton of funding for our clients. And it really drives down the cost of these easy installation projects.
Trevor Freeman 12:25
Geat. And you know, you can't really talk about EVs or electrification without you knowing, at least considering sustainability and climate goals. Do you find that your customers' goals when it comes to hitting a netzero target or just reducing emissions? Does that really impact the decisions they're making? And as a result, is that impacting your work?
Alana Jones 12:44
Yeah, absolutely. I believe the government mandate that all passenger vehicles being sold as of 2035, must be electric. And I think 20% by 2026, has had a huge impact on our clients, specifically dealerships. And some don't have any infrastructure in place at all, or even the capacity for the EV needs we're finding. So if service upgrades are required, that pushes the timeline of getting these EV chargers installed further and further away. We're also noticing municipalities looking to get fleets electrified, as well as looking to have larger service vehicles converted over to evey and everyone knows it's coming. And for some, it's been kept on the back burner. But like I said, 2035 really isn't that far away. So as a company, we are definitely growing to meet the demand of our customers. And so that's really a good sign of things moving in the right direction. And we know ultimately, it'll be better for the environment. Right? If all passenger vehicles and eventually working vehicles move to electric, that's not a secret. I think overcoming insecurities around electric vehicles is a big hurdle that many of us still have to get over. And I think that as battery technology improves, more affordable models are available. And the increase in public use chargers which we see happening rapidly, more and more people will get on board what I'll call the EV train.
Trevor Freeman 14:00
Right? Yeah, that's great to hear. Okay, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. So both of you are closer to the beginning of your career. I'm curious about how your experience so far has influenced how you see your own future path within the energy industry or elsewhere. Priscilla, why don't we start with you.
Priscilla Lacerda 14:18
Well, my current experience gives me a holistic view of the company, as it deals with different departments, which makes me think about pursuing a management career in the future.
Trevor Freeman 14:29
And do you see that - like, so you're in the distribution, part of the business now and specifically focused on reporting? Is that kind of where you have your eye or are you looking at other parts of the business?
Priscilla Lacerda 14:41
Well, working with distribution has always been rewarding for me. So I'd say I would like to continue to work with this. What makes me most fulfilled about the role that I'm currently playing is being able to help other departments identify possibilities for improvement in existing or new processes.
Trevor Freeman 14:59
Great, Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 15:02
Um, I believe it's a really exciting time to be an engineer working in the energy sector, there are new and emerging technologies. It's fast paced, and there is an abundance of work to be done. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Um, the industry isn't going anywhere. And like I said, it's growing rapidly. So having the experience to work alongside some really bright people on the bleeding edge of these technologies, is a really great opportunity. And hopefully, I'll have a career in this for years to come.
Trevor Freeman 15:30
Awesome. So I'm curious to hear from both of you. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing the energy industry right now? And Alana will let you kick that off?
Alana Jones 15:41
Yeah. I think one major challenge is having the infrastructure to support the electrification of buildings, homes, and all vehicles is a huge endeavor. And the grid needs to drastically increase in size and be ready to accommodate these future loads. And the pathway to net zero is a huge undertaking, and it will be challenging to achieve that, I believe. That's not to say it's not doable, but it's definitely a challenge and a massive investment. That being said, it's important to note that electrification changes are not happening all at once. Not everyone is switching to EV at the same time, or getting their buildings or homes all to net zero all at once. So I do believe that the Canadian grid is capable of growing gradually alongside those changes to be able to adapt.
Trevor Freeman 16:27
Great, Priscilla, what do you think?
Priscilla Lacerda 16:29
Well, one of the challenges the energy sector is facing right now is the urgency to meet the decarbonisation, and net zero targets. And this is driving significant electrification efforts across various sectors, as Alana just said, like transportation and construction, for example, because construction right now is changing, like the old heating and cooling gas systems for electric appliances. So being a key player in this scenario, Hydro Ottawa is working alongside partners, customers and suppliers to achieve our net zero goal for 2030. And also, we are committed to supporting our customers in their efforts to meet their own net zero targets amplifying our collective impact on sustainability.
Trevor Freeman 17:14
Yeah, great. I think you've both identified some pretty key challenges. And luckily, we've got great people like the two of you helping us get there. So I'm wondering if you guys have any advice that you would give to, you know, current students or people that are considering an engineering career or another career in the energy sector that you can pass on based on your experience? Priscilla, you can start us off.
Priscilla Lacerda 17:38
I would say seek opportunities, like internships or Co Op programs during your engineering studies. Because even though theoretical knowledge is essential. It's also important to know how to apply what you're learning in real life situations.
Trevor Freeman 17:54
Yeah, that's a great point, Alana, any great advice?
Alana Jones 17:57
Yeah, I agree, I would say absolutely get involved. It's a great opportunity to contribute to climate change solutions. I believe it's a stable industry with a ton of opportunities to learn about the latest and greatest technologies. As I mentioned before, I come from a mining community where it's not always stable. It's a very boom or bust industry. So when it's good, it's really good. But there are times the price of minerals drop and mines close, jobs are lost and communities become ghost towns. It's just not the same as it is in the energy sector. There is and will be for the foreseeable future and abundance of work and I believe in the need for skilled workers. So when choosing a path to take your career, I think the energy sector is one that I would highly recommend.
Trevor Freeman 18:40
Great, thanks for that. That's great to hear. Could you each talk about a misconception about the energy industry or your work that you think people might have that you'd like to, you know, let them know about?
Alana Jones 18:53
Sure. And a misconception around my work with electric vehicles and I see this a lot. I believe there's a lot of insecurities around EVs, so battery ranges, one especially in colder climates, like Ottawa. Battery technology, though, is constantly improving, and there are ways to mitigate the effects of the cold weather on your battery. Things like preconditioning your battery by turning it on, turning on the heat for even 10 minutes before driving. Some vehicles even offer a winter weather feature that helps keep the battery in an ideal temperature zone. Another aspect is that five years ago, the landscape looked much different when getting from point A to point B. Now public EV infrastructures are everywhere. When you look at the EV charging maps and cities. They're just covered and it's only getting better. The government just announced a $1.2 billion investment to build 84,000 chargers across the country by 2029. So it's likely you won't be able to go anywhere without seeing a charger. And I think as more and more chargers are put on the map people will be more accepting of the technology or realize that it's not going anywhere and realize that it is a huge opportunity for us individuals to reduce our carbon footprint. Lastly, I think it's difficult for people to commit to the initial investment into electric vehicles. I think for a lot of people, they see the price tag on an EV . And that prevents them from taking that leap, I guess. But initial investment and cost of ownership are two different things. My hope is that the government incentives continue, just to help the average Canadian consumer be able to afford an EV and make that initial shift, because studies show that operating costs are significantly lower than that of a gasoline fueled counterpart.
Trevor Freeman 20:32
Yeah, that's great. I think it's a really important kind of misconception to talk about. And I'm hopeful that we're starting to see a shift in that. And obviously, the, you know, great work that you guys are doing an inquiry is helping alleviate some of those concerns and challenges. Priscilla, what about you, what's a misconception that you want to address?
Priscilla Lacerda 20:51
So I would like to raise awareness to a common misconception that electrical engineering is only for men. I read on the internet that women represent less than 20% of the engineering professionals in Canada. And I think we need to encourage more women to be a part of the energy industry and let them know that they are capable of succeeding in this field.
Trevor Freeman 21:12
Yeah, that's a great one as well. And and I agree, having gone through kind of engineering school and obviously working in this industry, what I will say is, it's really refreshing and encouraging to have, you know, really smart, passionate people like the two of you, kind of coming up in our organizations and, you know, hopefully eventually taking on more and more roles and leadership roles. So great to have you guys here today and talk about it. So thanks very much for the conversation. So far, I really appreciate hearing more about your experiences, how you got to where you are and what you're kind of looking at moving forward. To wrap up our conversation, there's a bit of a tradition on the show to ask some rapid fire questions. For the regular listeners out there. Just be warned, I may have changed them up a little bit. So they might be a little bit different from what you're used to hearing. But it's fresh for the two of you. So why don't we dive right in you both ready for the rapid fire portion of the interview?
Alana Jones 22:10
Ready?
Priscilla Lacerda 22:11
Yes.
Trevor Freeman 22:12
Awesome. Okay, so we're gonna start with Alana. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Alana Jones 22:20
1984 by George Orwell. Have a read if you have not already. You'll see its relevance throughout history and even present day and I find that very fascinating.
Trevor Freeman 22:31
Yeah, that's a good one. Priscilla, what about you?
Priscilla Lacerda 22:34
Well, for me, it's The Little Prince, because it seems like a simple story at first, but then it's actually very philosophical. And every time that I read, it makes me reflect a lot.
Trevor Freeman 22:45
Yeah, those are I mean, I'm not really supposed to provide commentary on the rapid fire part, but I'm going to anyway, those are both great answers. And great books like ones you can read over and over again and kind of get a little bit more out of it each time you read. So awesome answers to that. So same question, but for a movie or a show. What's a movie or a show that you think everyone should watch, Priscilla?
Priscilla Lacerda 23:08
So, a movie that I like very much is The Pursuit of Happiness, because it's about perseverance in adverse life situations.
Trevor Freeman 23:18
Great Alana. What about you?
Alana Jones 23:20
The Shawshank Redemption, I love a good comeback story.
Trevor Freeman 23:24
Nice, awesome. If somebody offered you a free round trip - just for the record, I'm not offering you a free round trip - But if somebody offered you a free round trip flight to anywhere in the world, where would you go? Alana?
Alana Jones 23:37
I would love to go relax in the south of France with some wine, the warm weather and tour around on a big old boat.
Trevor Freeman 23:46
Perfect Priscilla, what but you
Priscilla Lacerda 23:49
Scotland seems like a magical place to visit.
Trevor Freeman 23:53
Yeah, it sure was a great answer. Who is someone that you admire? Priscilla?
Priscilla Lacerda 23:59
So for me, it's my husband because he was truly brave to leave everything behind in our home country to emigrate with me.
Trevor Freeman 24:07
Yeah, that can't have been easy for either of you. Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 24:11
I would also say my spouse, he's the hardest working person I know and a great provider. He's also the best dad, we have three young boys and they absolutely adore him. He can be out working all day and still come home with energy to wrestle and play with them. And he just teaches them so many useful life skills. And I really, really adore watching them learn from them.
Trevor Freeman 24:31
Awesome. That's great answer. Okay, so I mean, these are typically not topic relevant questions, but I'm going to slip one in here as part of our rapid fire section. What is an emerging technology or trend in the energy sector that you're most excited about and that you think will have a massive impact? Priscilla, why don't you start?
Priscilla Lacerda 24:51
So the trend of buying an electric vehicle in our daily lives is having a massive impact on how we need to prepare this system to absorb the growing demand for power in residential and commercial units. I think this will also have a huge impact on the environment too. Because electric cars batteries will need to be discarded or recycled once they reach their lifespan.
Trevor Freeman 25:15
Yeah, I think you're totally right EVs are kind of that first technology when we look at the energy transition, the one that's maybe the furthest along, there's others to come. But I think you're totally right. It's the one that really we're starting to see what some of the challenges and opportunities are for that. So great answer, Alana, what about you?
Alana Jones 25:34
Yeah, so an emerging technology I was recently introduced to a company that produces wireless inductive charging for vehicles. So if you can imagine, there are these charging pads, basically, they're placed in the ground, and your vehicle gets equipped with a receiver that when you drive over these pads, charging is engaged, there's no need for wires or plugs or even to step out of your vehicle for that matter. It just seems like a really great technology. And I'm really anxious to see if it will be in Ottawa anytime soon. If we'll be seeing that around. Where do you see the applications for that? Is that like in parking garages? Or parking lots? Or is that something embedded in the road when you drive over it? Yeah, it is embedded in the road. So the company works with a few, they've already done these installations with a few other companies. One thing we're busing fleets. So they have these large buses that go in charge, instead of doing it at the depot, they can kind of go in their lane, and they're really fast charging, and things like that. So it's a good application for that for larger vehicles as well.
Trevor Freeman 26:33
It's definitely one of those sectors, or those areas that you know, some of the possibilities out there are pretty exciting to see about how we might, you know, envision our lives in the future. Makes you think of those, you know, articles or those magazines that say this is what life is going to be like in 2050. And imagine if we're all driving around charging our cars while we drive, I think that's pretty cool. Okay, well, thank you both for joining me today. It's been really great getting to know you and hearing a little bit more about what you do and how you got to where you are. I'm really excited for you both as you continue to chart your career paths and decide, you know, where your interests and your passions lie and kind of follow that. But really, I'm glad we've got smart folks like you who are going to be helping us shape the future of energy, maybe chasing down those roads that charge our cars. So thanks very much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Alana Jones 27:21
Thanks, Trevor. I appreciate you having us on the show.
Priscilla Lacerda 27:24
Yeah, thank you very much. It was awesome.
Trevor Freeman 27:26
Great. Thanks, guys. To everyone else out there. Thanks for listening, and we'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and really help us spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you. Whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or guests. You can always reach us at [email protected]
-
Thinkenergy launched May 2019, with host Dan Séguin leading the charge to demystify the fast-changing world of energy. From helping Canadians better understand the sector to sharing insights from industry leaders and experts, Dan is a key reason why thinkenergy is the podcast for conversations around the future of energy. In his last episode as host, Dan passes the mic to Trevor Freeman, Supervisor, Key Accounts at Hydro Ottawa. Listen in as they share favourite episodes, what’s to come and more.
Related links
Daniel Séguin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-s%C3%A9guin-a29b4130/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
---
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show is going to be a little different. This is a bittersweet episode of thick energy podcasts. Today marks the end of an era for me on this incredible journey through the world of energy. It's been an honor and a privilege to share stories, insights, and innovations with all of you these many years on the show. But as they say, all good things must come to an end. Today, I'm excited to introduce you to the new Captain steering this ship into the future, someone who is just as passionate and knowledgeable about the energy sector than I am, maybe a little more. So. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming your new host of the think energy podcast. Trevor Freeman. Trevor, welcome to the show.
Trevor Freeman 01:21
Thanks very much, Dan. And thanks for having me on and entrusting me with this project. I just want to start by recognizing all the hard work that you and your team have put into building thinkenergy into what it is today. It's a great community of listeners who are enthusiastic and curious about all things energy related. I've really enjoyed following along. And I'm thrilled to be joining the think energy team as we continue to explore this dynamic and ever changing world of energy at this really critical time in our industry.
Dan Seguin 01:50
Trevor, for our listeners, perhaps you can tell us about yourself, your expertise in the energy sector in short, what is your role now? And how did you get here?
Trevor Freeman 02:02
Sure. So I'm an environmental engineer who has been in the sustainability and energy field for about 14 years now. Right when I graduated out of university, I spent about four years working in international development and water and sanitation. But I'm coming back home to Canada I decided to explore this passion for sustainability and environmental improvement. And I made the shift to working in green building design and energy management. I worked in consulting and helping building owners primarily commercial real estate, improve their buildings, reduce energy consumption and costs, and incorporate sustainable thinking into their day to day business operations. I joined Hydro Ottawa about eight years ago now, first working on our conservation and demand management team, before making the jump over to our key accounts team, which I now lead. As the leader of the key accounts team, we support some of our largest commercial customers with all things related to energy, we're here to be their trusted advisors, whether that's routine questions or access to various services that Hydro Ottawa offers, or looking ahead, as more and more of our customers start to plan their own decarbonisation, or energy transition pathways. It's really a great role that helps my team and I really understand the needs and drivers of our customers, which are ultimately the end users of the energy that gets talked about on this podcast so often, that understanding helps Hydro Ottawa plan to meet the needs of those customers moving forward.
Dan Seguin 03:37
Okay, aside from fame and fortune, what drew you to take on this role of hosting the podcast?
Trevor Freeman 03:45
Well, I mean, since I can't talk about the first two, which are really the main drivers. In addition to being an engineer, I'm actually really passionate about communicating complex items. I know the term 'good communication' is not always associated with engineers, and I'm allowed to make that joke. But I really do enjoy having, you know, those tough conversations about complex and technical topics, whether that's how the grid works, to the changing landscape and technologies associated with energy to simply how does your electricity bill work? Or how does a building mechanical system work? I really enjoy having those conversations. And this seems like a great opportunity. So that plus seeing all the great conversations you've been able to have over the past years, with some really fantastic folks who are doing really great things, made it an easy decision to step into the role when the opportunity arose.
Dan Seguin 04:37
Very cool, Trevor, sorry, but I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Do you have any favorite episodes of rhe thinkenergy podcast that resonate with you?
Trevor Freeman 04:48
Sure. I'm actually going to cheat here, Dan, and give you three but I promise I'll be quick. So the first one is an episode that you did about residential heat pumps, with our mutual colleague Sean Carr. So I'm a little bit biased in this one because not only do I know Shawn story very well, but I actually went through my own heat pump journey about four years ago when I installed the hybrid heating system and my own house. And I think the more we talk about the benefits and the challenges of electrifying home heating, the easier we make that step for everyone else, who's going to be doing it as well. The second one I'm going to pick is your interview with Hydro Ottawa's CEO, Bryce Conrad, about our own netzero ambitions as an organization. So folks can go back and listen for themselves. But as a member of the Hydro Ottawa team, I was really inspired by the ambition and the drive to be a leader, and commit to something bold and lofty, even though we don't necessarily have all the answers about exactly how we're going to get there. And finally, I really loved your conversation with Dr. Monica Gettinger about the conversation we need to have around the future of energy, specifically her Positive Energy Program. As someone who is really passionate about taking action around climate change. I'm all too aware that as much as we finally seem to be getting some consensus that climate change is indeed a problem, there's still a lot of polarizing views about how to address the issue and how fast to move. Dr. Gettinger's work on building consensus and having a constructive dialogue was really refreshing to hear and made me really optimistic about where we can go with this.
Dan Seguin 06:22
Cool. Okay, now, what excites you about the future of energy?
Trevor Freeman 06:28
Yeah, I think this is a really great time to be in the energy fields, things feel like they're changing rapidly. And it seems like we're on the cusp of a real evolution of how we power our lives and our society. Whether it's what kind of energy we use - clean energy versus emissions producing energy, where that energy comes from, you know, centrally produced versus distributed, and how much control over that energy, the end users. So that's the homes and the businesses have through things like self generation and storage and smart technology. And that's not even talking about how that smart technology and AI is going to impact all of the above. So above all, I think I'm really excited to be working in an industry. That's really one of the major tools we have as a society to combat climate change. Electricity, while not the only answer is a major avenue for decarbonisation, and I really love being a part of that.
Dan Seguin 07:28
Okay, Trevor, are there any topics or themes from your experience that you'd like to explore further on show? What can our listeners expect?
Trevor Freeman 07:38
Honestly, Dan, I hope it's more of the same as what you've been doing over these past years. So that's talking to smart folks who are doing really cool things in the energy industry, especially around decarbonisation, and the energy transition that includes helping demystify some of those more complex topics for our listeners, you know, how does this big machine that we call the electricity grid in the energy industry? How does that all work? And what does it mean for our consumers, and then getting into the weeds on the energy transition, whether that's specific technologies or policy ideas, or more likely a mix of the both because you really can never have one without the other?
Dan Seguin 08:16
Very cool. Thanks, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 08:19
Thank you, Dan. So I think this is the part where I get to take over. Now your listeners will know that you've been sitting behind the microphone for a number of years now, but I don't think anybody has ever interviewed you. So let's take this opportunity to ask you a couple of questions. So first of all, I was thinking maybe you could take us back to the beginning and tell us what inspired you to start this podcast?
Dan Seguin 08:43
Well, our first podcast for those who don't remember, it was released in May of 2019. The topic was Microgeneration, wow! Ee explored the possibility, back then, of turning your home into your own virtual power plant. Now, the reason why we dove into podcasting was driven by the fact that we were looking for a product a platform that could help demystify maybe better understand the fast changing world of energy. We were looking for a product where we could maybe better shape the narrative, you know, by leveraging influencers and subject matter expert. It provided us with greater ability if you want to maximize the reach of the podcast, but also its amplification. Also, working with a captive audience like minded people, is much easier. Finally, another reason we gravitated to podcasting was to deal with info obesity, great term here, you know, cluster and noise on channels is constantly increasing and customer attention span is shrinking. So podcasts were convenient and very easy to consume. They're poor. audible. You can listen to them in a gym, drive to work or even on a plane. So it was a great choice for us to do and it worked very well. Now, if I look back five years, I think that podcasts have been extremely sticky. This long form content, basically had a great listen rate. And for us, I think we did good.
Trevor Freeman 10:24
Great. Thanks, Dan. I can tell already that I've got a lot to learn on the communication side of things and marketing what we do here. On the podcast, do you have a favorite moment or more than one from doing the show that you want to share a favorite episode or something that really stands out and encapsulates the essence of think energy?
Dan Seguin 10:45
So you're asking me to pick my favorite child? That's a tough one. Okay. Well, I think the one that comes into mind is the episode with a disaster volunteer from the Canadian Red Cross. As we all know, we've experienced a pandemic, a number of natural disasters in the last couple of years, devastating wind storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, freezing rain, forest fires and floods. And when disaster strikes, electricity supply is usually jeopardized. So during these large scale, emergencies, emergency response becomes critical. And in this interview, we explored what it's like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. It's a very cool episode.
Trevor Freeman 11:36
Over the past number of years of doing this, what has been the most significant change or changes and developments in the energy sector that you've seen?
Dan Seguin 11:44
I think it's the acknowledgement of reducing our environmental footprint, the commitment to provide innovative sustainable solutions, things like achieving net zero operations. Also, climate change, coupled with the push for electrification is now driving a lot of innovation and change in our sector. What comes to mind is that greater push towards renewable energy, expanding access to EV infrastructure, as zero emission with public transit, there's a lot going on. And let's not forget the evolution of customers. They are no longer passive consumers of electricity, some of them are now becoming prosumers, managing, generating and selling their energy. So the energy landscape is in a constant flux. And it's going to be an exciting ride.
Trevor Freeman 12:40
So as I sit here, behind the microphone on this side of the desk, what advice do you have for me taking on this podcasts around that ever evolving world of energy?
Dan Seguin 12:50
This is not going to be long winded. Always make sure the content provides value for the audience. You must be audience driven. Be curious, and have fun. That's it.
Trevor Freeman 13:04
Perfect. Sounds easy. So Dan, as you step away from hosting, what comes next? Are we going to be competing for podcast listeners or what's in your future?
Dan Seguin 13:12
Not at all. I'll be spending a lot more time with my wife. I'm going to continue my karate journey. I'm going to master pickleball my word. I want to do bike rail trails across Canada in the US. And I'm looking forward to joining the ever growing generation of snowbirds in Florida. While renovating my condo in Naples and enjoying the beach.
Trevor Freeman 13:40
As long as you put some solar on that condo, Dan, I think that sounds like an awesome plan. So finally, just to wrap it all up again, our regular listeners will know that you have subjected your guests to some on the spot rapid fire questions. And again, I don't think you've ever answered them yourselves. So I think it's time that we get to hear what your answers to those questions would be. So are you ready?
Dan Seguin 14:03
I am.
Trevor Freeman 14:04
Here we go. What are you reading right now?
Dan Seguin 14:07
Right now I'm reading Forever Young by Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. It's a book on strategies for aging.
Trevor Freeman 14:13
Well, sounds appropriate given your coming retirement. So what would you name your boat if you had one? And do you have one?
Dan Seguin 14:21
I do not. I used to have a pontoon boat when I lived by the lake, but I would call it now, I think, Gilligan.
Trevor Freeman 14:29
Who is someone that you admire?
Dan Seguin 14:31
Hands down my life partner, my better half, France, my wife.
Trevor Freeman 14:35
I know that if I'd have asked you to name two people, I would have been number two.
Dan Seguin 14:38
Oh, absolutely.
Trevor Freeman 14:39
I know that like many of us, you are probably guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and streaming platforms over the last number of years. So what's your favorite movie or show?
Dan Seguin 14:49
Okay, well, the best Netflix series hands down is Peaky Blinders. And for me the best movies I'll go with three. The Godfather, Memento and Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.
15:03
Well Dan, I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for pulling me in and then trusting this with me. And thanks for sharing a little bit about your life with us today.
Dan Seguin 15:16
Very cool. Thank you very much.
Trevor Freeman 15:18
And finally, what excites you about the energy industry right now?
Dan Seguin 15:22
Well, I think I alluded to this earlier, I think what's exciting me is seeing how the electricity grid, how utilities across North America will cope with a millions of EVs should be interesting.
Trevor Freeman 15:36
You'll have to come back in Dan and check in on things in a year or two. And we've got it all figured out. No doubt. So Dan, I think that's it. I think we've reached the end of this transition episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thanks again for having me on for entrusting this with me, and for sharing a little bit about your insights and your life with us on this episode.
Dan Seguin 15:58
Thank you, Trevor. There you have it, folks, thank you all for being part of this amazing community. And I look forward to tuning in now as a listener. From now on. This is Dan Seguinsigning off and passing the microphone over to Mr. Trevor Freeman.
Trevor Freeman 16:17
Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure.
Dan Seguin 16:20
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Rewind episode: The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing, as countries worldwide are eliminating greenhouse gases and moving away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future has a lot of moving parts, especially as it relates to cleaning Canada’s energy sector. Merran Smith, founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada, joins us to talk about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.
Related links
LinkedIn, Merran Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/
LinkedIn, Clean Energy Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clean-energy-canada/
Clean Energy Canada: https://cleanenergycanada.org/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
----
Trancript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today, we're coming clean about what clean energy could look like in the near future. That's right. And with the help of our guests, we're going to define what clean energy means, specifically for Canada and the future of electricity. There is a rising pressure around the globe to transition away from fossil fuels, eliminate greenhouse gases, and challenge the status quo when it comes to pollution and tackling climate change. What does that mean for Canada and our place in a clean energy world? Obviously, there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to cleaning Canada's energy sector, particularly when it comes to transportation, and heating of our buildings. But there's more to it than just that. There's renewable energy, revamping and expanding the electricity grid and conserving energy. Not to mention innovation and technology that doesn't exist yet. That will all play a role in getting us to Canada's Net Zero targets. So here's today's big question. Can Canada affordably and realistically accelerate its transition to clean energy in time? Our guest today is Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Clean Energy Canada is a leading Think Tank, advancing clean energy and climate solutions. Marren has won numerous awards for her work and also serves as co chair of the BC government's Climate Solutions Council. Okay, Marren, let's kick things off by telling our listeners about yourself, your work, and what Clean Energy Canada is.
Marren Smith 02:23
Yeah, so I'll start with Clean Energy Canada, we're a think tank based at Simon Fraser University's Center for dialogue. And we focus on solutions to accelerate the transition to a clean energy economy. And so what do we actually do? You know, we do think tank things like analysis and policy advice. But what makes us really different is that one, we focus on the solutions, not the problems, all about solutions to we really like to bring together business industry unions, get everybody in the room and see if we can get consensus around the advice to governments so that they can move solutions forward faster. And thirdly, what we do is we do a lot of talking to Canadians about the energy transition, how it links to jobs, to a nick strong economy and more affordability. And so we think of ourselves actually as a do tank and not a think tank. And myself, I'm a fellow at Simon Fraser University, I founded Clean Energy Canada, I'm now moved on, I'm no longer the Executive Director. I'm the Chief Innovation Officer. And I had been asked over the years, in the last 10 years doing this work, to co chair a number of Climate and Energy advisory bodies for both the federal and British Columbia governments. And I think that's because I have a pretty long track record of bringing together unusual allies around solutions to environmental energy and economy problems. So that's a bit about me.
Dan Seguin 04:09
Now, I'm somewhat curious, how does Clean Energy Canada define clean energy? Is it in relation to zero emissions? Or is there more to it than that?
Marren Smith 04:22
Yeah, so for us, we talk about clean energy spanning both energy supply. So renewable electricity, for example, solar, wind, thermal, but also demand. And so our definition of clean energy includes, like, as I said, renewable electricity generation, but also energy storage, energy transmission, energy efficiency, and any of the technologies or services that decarbonize transportation buildings in these and other polluting parts of our economy. So we have a fairly large definition of clean energy. And you know it really, when you look at it, that is what energy is all about. It's not just about making the energy. It's about how you use it and the technology so that you can use it more efficiently.
Dan Seguin 05:18
Clean Energy Canada has been advocating for climate action since 2010; 12 years in what are three positive changes that have made the biggest impact in Canada? And what is one that has hindered success?
Marren Smith 05:37
Yeah, this is a great question. So the three positive changes that I see is, one, the cost of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we've really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over those last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle have dropped about 90%, wind has dropped about 40%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this is coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the eccotemp economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. Um, the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible. And that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over this last six years, federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada's had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly, is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive, and especially the today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to ten dollars versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from, we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards netzero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies. And, you know, continue with a strong economy if we do at night, right if we act now. And I guess Lastly, about electric vehicles, it's for anybody who hasn't gotten in one yet, you really should, because they're pretty fun to drive. And that's what we want this energy transition to be. We want it to be make life better. And I think electric vehicles are just one way that people can see how, you know, once you get over the hurdle of purchasing one, it does make life better, cleaner air, more affordable to drive. Now, you asked the other question, what's hindered success? And I would say what's really hindered Canada's movement on all of this has been the debate and the governments that have really ripped up climate action or refused to move forward on climate action. And, you know, that's created uncertainty. So we've seen various governments in Ontario in Alberta, you know, federally across the country, I shouldn't just name those provinces, because across the country, governments who come in and who are not willing to take action on climate and really want to stick with the static quo. And that really creates a lot of uncertainty for business and doesn't drive the change. I'm really hopeful that we're not going to see that anymore. You know, now that we've seen this new inflation reduction act out of the United States, it is sending a clear signal that this is the biggest economic opportunity that there has been, you know, in this generation, absolutely. To drive and build this clean energy economy, they are investing heavily in it. And we're going to see in the United States, those kinds of investments happening all over the country, you know, in red states and blue states, blue collar workers are going to be you know, being employed in plants, white collar workers, rural urban, this, this is going to be a massive, massive growth for industries and the economy, in producing electricity producing batteries and producing all the component pieces towards them hydrogen, retrofitting buildings. So there is a huge boom coming. And I hope that in Canada, we actually see our government picking up on that as well and linking this decarbonisation with our economic strategy.
Dan Seguin 11:55
Marren, what do you mean when you state that the Clean Energy Transition is a once in a generation opportunity for Canada to build a resilient, growing and inclusive economy?
Marren Smith 12:10
Yeah, so we've just talked about how we're really seeing around the globe, you know, the United States, but we've been seeing this in the EU and the UK and China, this, you know, linking up their industrial strategy, their economic strategy, to their economic strategies. And so Canada really has what it takes to make this shift as well to, you know, take action on climate decarbonize and really shift from fossil fuels oriented economy to a clean energy or renewable energy economy. So we have the natural resources that are going to be needed, you know, those metals and minerals, for example, we're going to be needing that steel, that cobalt, that nickel to be building the transmission lines, the solar panels, and in particular, the batteries, which are really the heart of the clean energy system. So Canada has what it takes. And then secondly, we've got the clean electricity or grids about 83% clean or zero mission right now. We've got a skilled labor force. So that's what the opportunity is, it's going to be a massive effort for us to retool our existing industries and build some of these new industries. But we've got the potential to do it.
Dan Seguin 13:40
Next question. Now, what makes Canada well positioned to be a global clean energy leader?
Marren Smith 13:48
So Canada's got the natural resources that we talked about metals and minerals, forest products, agricultural products, we've got great solar and wind resources and a grid that's already at 3% zero emission. We have great potential for green hydrogen. And, you know, we've got great trading relationships with the US as well as Europe and Asia. So we are positioned to be creating clean energy and one of the things that we are uniquely positioned around our batteries. Batteries are going to be the heart of the energy system. So they're obviously the heart of the electric vehicle. But also, large scale batteries are going to be what backs up that intermittent or variable wind and solar and renewable energies, they're going to be a part of the system as well. And so Canada is the only country in the Western world. It's actually the only democratically elected country that has all the metals and minerals needed to produce batteries. So In addition, we've got the good clean electricity to actually manufacture those metals and minerals and turn them into, you know, refine them, turn them into cells and ultimately batteries. So we've got the key components there. And that one huge opportunity for Canada. And we're seeing you know, this federal government has been working with Ontario and Quebec and landing some significant battery company investments, you know, GM and Bay calm for this year, LG and still Lantus in Ontario. So that's I some of the key parts of why Canada is so well positioned to be a clean energy leader.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Next question for you. What are the strategies you employ to achieve your mission to accelerate Canada's transition to a renewably powered economy?
Marren Smith 15:56
Yeah, so one, I think that we work with businesses, industry unions, to understand what their needs are, you know, we're positioned at the Center for dialogue at Simon Fraser University. And so we use dialogue, bring people together, structure it so that we can have a deliberate conversation that gets us to advice for government. So that's one of the strategies we employ. A second one is, you know, we look around the world and we find out what policies are working elsewhere, what programs, what are other countries doing that's working? And what can we glean out of that, and use in the Canadian context, and feed that kind of information to governments and to industry about what they can do next? Because Kevin does not the only one doing this, and there's a lot of countries that are ahead of us on this. So let's learn from them, and Canadian eyes it. And then lastly, we really have an eye to bringing the public along with us in this conversation, ensuring that they understand the Clean Energy Transition exactly what does it mean, understand some of the policies when they get controversial? And understand what's in it for them? You know, and right now we're seeing a public that is got, you know, a lot of insecurity going on with the global state of affairs, the war in the Ukraine, you know, this energy prices escalating, there's a lot of misinformation going on. And so, actually having the public understand and see how they fit into the energy transition, and how it's going to make life better for them, is, I'd say, a very important part of the transition. And so we do what we can we actually study how to communicate with the public and study language, what works with them, what resonates and how to get the stories to them that are going to help them understand this energy transition, what they can do, and what they can support.
Dan Seguin 18:06
Marren wondering if you could unpack for our listeners, what are some of the ways clean energy Canada has contributed to our country's progress in the last year or two?
Marren Smith 18:19
Yeah, so we have been working hard over the last couple of years. And I'll tell you about some of the significant achievements that I think we've been part of making happen. So first is about electric vehicles, or zero emission vehicles, as they're called in some circles. We see these as a key part of the solution, and one that is getting ready for primetime. They're a key part of the solution, because one quarter of Canada's carbon pollution is from transportation. So we've got to tackle this and about half of it from passenger vehicles, half of it's from trucks and buses. And so we've been working on both sides of that equation. And one of the things that had become the barrier has been supply of cars. At this point, people want them and we're seeing the uptake of those cars, you know, double and triple year over year. And so how do you get the supply here and how you do that through a policy called the zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the automakers to sell them in, in Canada. And so that's one that we've been working on. We actually were successful in getting one in British Columbia. And you know, and I have to report to you that so far in 2022 17% of new car sales have been electric vehicles. So that just far outpaces what people predicted. I think we were trying to get to 10% by 2025. We've blown through that we've now increased our targets because clearly for Colombians are ready to buy them. And there's similar types of stats from Quebec, who also has a zero emission vehicle mandate. The challenge for the rest of the country, and you know, if you're in Ottawa, you're probably going and putting your name on the list. And it's multiple years, you might not even be able to get on the list anymore, because there just aren't any cars. And so we need a federal zero emission vehicle mandate that requires the companies to the automakers to sell electric vehicles in Canada, or they're penalized. So that's one thing that we've made good progress on and contributed to. One that I haven't talked much about, that I'll mention here is about the steel sector, the cement sector, these heavy industries that are also heavy polluters. And, you know, so that's another area we've been working on and looking for solutions. We're looking at, okay, much of this steel, cement, aluminum, it's all being used in the construction industry. So how do we get those who are building things and buying things to demand low carbon steel, low carbon cement, which will really help these industries put it'll push them to to decarbonize and so that program is called by clean. The biggest purchaser of steel and cement and, and these types of things in the country is the government and we've been working to get the government to commit to a bike clean policy. The really interesting thing is that the steel sector, the cement sector, the aluminum sector V, these sectors are really on board to decarbonizing, this is globally happening. We're seeing all of these industries recognize that they cannot be admitting the scale of pollution, they are right now they've got to reduce that carbon pollution get to net zero. And so, again, we're seeing progress on reducing emissions in that sector. And we're seeing, you know, the United States and Canada have actually said that they are going to work together on this bike lanes so that both countries are pushing that they will procure, they will only purchase low, lower carbon, steel, cement, etc, for building our hospital, roads, schools, and all those good things. So that's another one that I'd say we could say we've been involved with, and batteries, I've already talked about it. We've been involved in the batteries for the last few years, and bringing together that sector, from the mining sector, all the way up to battery producers and electric vehicle, you know, the automatic factoring companies like GM, and all the way to the recyclers, and working with government to get, you know, a battery strategy for Canada to really ensure that we lock in and land the most jobs and the most opportunities for Canadians across the country. And these would be jobs in different provinces and opportunities for different provinces, you know, rural urban jobs, etc. So it's a big opportunity, but Canada's got to act quickly if we really want to get the most benefits from it. And by the most benefits, I mean, we could be creating a quarter of a million jobs by 2030 in this sector, which would be good for the country and will help us as we're transitioning, you know, out of other job sectors.
Dan Seguin 23:36
Okay, Marren, are you able to expand on some of Clean Energy Canada's short term goals?
Marren Smith 23:44
Yeah. So I would say right now, our top short term goal is around public awareness and understanding how shifting to clean energy is going to help affordability for Canadians. I think this is critical and important, because you know, this electrification, people are very sensitive to the price of electricity and increasing costs of electricity. And so there's a piece of work to ship to understanding what your overall energy costs are. So as we move off of fossil fuels, that means you're not spending as much on gas anymore. You know, for your gas fired car, but your electricity bill is going to go up. As you shift off of the having gas to heat and cool your home and shifting to an electric heat pump, their electricity bills can go up. We did some research earlier this year. Report called the true cost looking at some of the top models of cars in Canada, what it costs to purchase one plus run it over eight years, and we'll probably talk a bit more about this letter later. So just to say having Canadians under stand that this shift, while it's gonna have some costs in the short term is a more affordable and a better option for Canadians.
Dan Seguin 25:11
You recently contributed to a white paper with Electric Mobility Canada, on how Canada can design an effective zero emission vehicle mandate. I'm curious, what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 25:27
Yeah. So, I'd say trying to do this in a nutshell. So first of all, is accountability. So we need to ensure that automakers are accountable and keeping pace with demand. And we need to do that with legally binding annual sales requirements so that they have to sell X percent of cars that are electric, and that there's serious financial penalties for non compliance. And that's, that's really the nuts and bolts of a good zero emission vehicle mandate. There's a whole bunch of details in there. Some provinces, like you mentioned, Quebec, and BC, they already have one, so we just need to use this in provinces that don't have them. And then our other key aspect of the recommendations was speed, we need to really finalize this regulation next year, so that it takes effect with model year 2024. There's really no time to wait on this. And we can see the demand for cars is there. We really need to be able to get them into the hands of people right now while they want them.
Dan Seguin 26:37
Now, for my first follow up question, we all know that the lack of supply is a big issue when it comes to zero emission vehicle sales. What's driving that? Are automakers prioritizing other markets? Where they're required to sell more EVs?
Marren Smith 27:00
Yeah, well, that's exactly what we're seeing here. In Canada, the majority of the electric vehicles are going to British Columbia and Quebec, because they're required to sell them there. And, you know, they're going to other states in the United States that have similar types of mandates California at one, but there's a button doesn't down there. And so they're sending them where they need to, you know, in the past, they have been making more money selling, you know, SUVs, for example, those bigger, heavier cars are where they've been making most of their profits. And so they're trying to get rid of those in Canada while they can. But this world is accelerating so quickly. You know, I think once we get the zero emission vehicle mandate, that rules so that the automakers have to sell the cars, we're going to start seeing them arrive in Canada, and we've seen, you know, the Detroit three have all been doubling and tripling their commitment for how fast they're going to start getting cars going and coming off the line. And I think we're going to only see that accelerate in the future. So I'm hoping that, you know, it looks like the automakers are more and more committing to be producing the cars. So the next obstacle is going to be the supply chain and whether they can get the batteries and get the other materials to make them.
Dan Seguin 28:34
Okay, another follow up question for you, Marren. Are there provinces in Canada that get prioritized for EV over others for example, Quebec, or maybe BC?
Marren Smith 28:46
Yeah, absolutely. That's why there's there certain car makes and models that you can only get in BC and Quebec, and that will be related to the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, they, they get, there's a stick and if they don't sell enough cars, they get penalized. So they make sure the cars are in BC and Quebec and that's really the best selling feature for why we need this to be a national program and have a federal zero emission vehicle mandate.
Dan Seguin 29:16
Now hand in hand with that, you convened a select group of industry stakeholders and other experts to develop a report on advancing the Canadian evey battery sector. What were some of the key takeaways from those consultations?
Marren Smith 29:34
Yeah, so the report we produced which you can find on our website at talks about this opportunity, and it is huge to produce batteries. We're talking upwards of 250,000 jobs by 2030 and $40 billion annually going to the Canadian revenues. So that's a great opportunity, but it's not going to happen without you. No creating a strategy to get there. And that is the top recommendation from this group of industry and other experts. The Canadian battery Task Force is what they're called, the top recommendation is we need to have a Canadian battery strategy, which is going to ensure that we target and focus the investment dollars in the right place, that we get the workforce setup. Because, you know, while we do have a great workforce in Canada, we're going to need more workers and with the right skills, and that we make sure that we get the infrastructure, we get the electricity, the clean electricity to the right places, and then we've got enough of it. You know, we've seen almost every battery Manor battery manufacturing plant, that set up so far, has mentioned the zero emission electricity that you can get in Canada. And that's one of the reasons why they chose to build in Canada. And these are big global companies that are choosing to land in Ontario and Quebec so far. And so we just, we need that kind of strategy to ensure that we can get the most out of this battery opportunity.
Dan Seguin 31:16
I like that. Okay. Let's move on. Can you tell us about your recent analysis that found electric vehicles are in fact cheaper, often by a lot than their gas counterpart? What models were you comparing and what factors were considered?
Marren Smith 31:38
Yeah, so we looked at some of the best selling cars in Canada. Things like the Chevy Bolt as the electric versus its gas counterpart, the Toyota Corolla, the Hyundai Kona versus the electric Kona, the Nissan LEAF versus the Honda Civic etcetera. So we did this for a number of the top selling cars, we looked at purchasing it, as well as operating it and maintaining it over an eight year period. And, you know, what we found is that in almost every case, you were saving money. And you know, we've had to update this because the price of gas has gone up so much. But the total costs savings are going electric range from 10 to $15,000, over eight years. That's significant savings. And, you know, as you talked about, you know, you notice that there's almost no maintenance costs for an electric vehicle. And that your cost of fueling is, you know, so much cheaper. And this was before gas was at $2, a leader. So roughly back the envelope, you know, those savings are going to jump in, for example, the Kona to about $18,000 or more, a lot of people don't understand how much more affordable an electric vehicle is. And they look at the sticker price of buying a new car. And that's what turns them away. At you know, so we're encouraging people to really understand, look at the long term. And we know that not everybody can go buy a new car, I didn't buy a new car ever in my life till I bought an electric vehicle. I always bought used cars. But the savings are significant. And of course, the added bonus is the you know, zero emissions, you're part of the solution and helping with climate change.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Okay, a follow up question here. Were there any expectations here?
Marren Smith 33:47
Yeah, so the Ford electric F-150. It was pretty close. Probably now if we did it with the the price or cost of gas now, you would actually be more affordable on the Ford F-150 We haven't gone back to it. The other thing to note on this is that electric vehicles are really holding their value. So if you're someone who likes to buy a new car and sell it in eight or so years, your electric vehicle used car sales are much higher than when you buy a new gas fire vehicle and then sell it off.
Dan Seguin 34:27
When it comes to the electricity grid Canada is 83% emission free and with lower electricity rates than many other countries. We seem to be in an enviable position. But in your report underneath it all. Your findings show that Canada may not be as prepared for a carbon neutral world, as we may think. Now, for the big question, why is that?
Marren Smith 34:55
Yeah, we are ahead. But it's not just about Getting from 83% zero emission to 100%. If that was the only challenge before us, you know, it would take some work, but that's extremely doable. But this energy transition is really the whole sale, reengineering of many of our supply chains, almost the entirety of the energy system that powers the economy, it's huge. And we are going to need to double the amount of electricity we produce by 2050, as we shift our cars or homes or businesses off of fossil fuels and onto the grid. So that's the main message of our report is, you know, we need we have great opportunity here. But we need to double the size of the grid so that we are able to plug our cars and our home heating and cooling and our industries into that zero emission grid.
Dan Seguin 35:53
Okay, follow up question here. What are four reasons Canada needs to achieve 100%? clean electricity supply? And what are some of your recommendations?
Marren Smith 36:06
Yeah. So, you know, first off, it's so that we can effectively combat climate change. And that's, you know, top reason why we're doing this, it's also going to diversify and strengthen Canada's economy. You know, as I said, companies are looking to be powered by zero emission electricity. We've seen those battery plants coming here, one of the reasons cited, and there's more opportunities as more of the the world's industries really focus on how are they going to be net zero, for example, we see Walmart and Amazon, those companies are looking for supply chains that are zero emission, they're counting their carbon, and that includes their transportation. So it's, it's about making Canada competitive and ensuring that we are an attractive place because we can power our economy and our communities with clean electricity. The third reason is around the potential for indigenous reconciliation efforts in clean energy ownership. I think this is a very exciting opportunity. There's already a lot of indigenous communities that own or are partners in clean energy, and we can expand that as this moves forward. And then lastly, is we started talking about affordability on this podcast. And, you know, once you get over the purchasing of the new technologies, it's really more affordable to be plugged into a zero emission grid. And that's going to create more certainty, more security around energy supply.
Dan Seguin 37:51
Marren, what are some of the other benefits to increasing Canada's clean electricity supply?
Marren Smith 37:58
So you know, one, we need clean electricity to meet our climate targets. Secondly, it's around affordability. This is going to help make energy more affordable for communities. And then another benefit. It's clean air, of course, you know, once you shift off of diesel buses, for example, to electric buses out of diesel trucks to electric trucks, you're really cleaning up air quality in cities in particular, but in all communities. And then there's another potential benefit. You know, Canada, most people don't know this, we actually export 8%, for electricity right now to America, that brings in $2.6 billion. And you know, the US has the same commitments around getting to 100% clean electricity grid by 2035. There's a lot dirtier than ours, they've got a lot of catching up to do. And there's a potential for Canada that has an enormous wealth of potential for renewable electricity across the country. Places like you know, Alberta and Saskatchewan have incredible solar resources. We have wind opportunities, you know, offshore onshore. So there's potential for us to be investing in clean electricity, not just for our own needs, but as a immensely valuable export that's going to be in demand in the United States. And then link to that economic opportunity is green hydrogen. We're hearing more about hydrogen can something that Europe's looking at shifting off of natural gas onto green hydrogen, which is made you know, with water getting split with electricity and turned into hydrogen so that's a good clean energy source and something that candidate could also be a leader in.
Dan Seguin 39:56
Okay, tough part is over. We always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got some for you. Are you ready?
Marren Smith 40:07
I am. I'm ready. Okay,
Dan Seguin 40:09
So for the first one, what are you reading right now?
Marren Smith 40:12
So I just read picked up a book that I read a number of years ago, The Hearts Invisible Theories by John Bowen. It takes place in Ireland in the starts in the 40s, and follows the life of the other boy, that a man as he's going through, really coming into his own and discovering himself, and it's just beautifully written really great book.
Dan Seguin 40:40
Okay. What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Marren Smith 40:45
Well, you know, I lived on one for 11 years. And that boat was called Potential, but I thought about this permanent name of boat. Right now. I might name it unplugged, you know, because it would be the the ticket to just taking off and, and having some fun.
Dan Seguin 41:03
Who is someone that you admire?
Marren Smith 41:06
Yeah, I don't know, if you've heard of Christiana Figueres she was, for a number of years, the United Nations UNFCCC, which was the framework on climate change in the UN, she was the executive secretary there, she is just a fantastic climate leader, she is always positive. She continues to be optimistic in spite of all the challenges in this world, and so it got a smile on her face while she continues to do this work.
Dan Seguin 41:43
Next question, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Marren Smith 41:50
Maybe 15 years ago, I used to work up in what's called the Great Bear Rainforest off the coast of British Columbia, we're taking our group of people out to go see the place and experience it the beautiful ancient rainforest, an area the size of Ireland. And we were whalewatching, watching humpback whales, and they go around in a circle, and they blow their bubbles and make a net out of it. And then they all go down, and they come up in the middle. So there was four of them doing this and they come up in the middle, they make that net around a little school of fish, and they open their mouths and come up and and scoop up all the fish. And we were watching them do that. And then suddenly, I looked off this side of the boat, and there was all these little fish leaping out of the water. And suddenly, the whales picked up our boat and lifted it out of the water. And so it was just amazing. And there they were, then they just kind of sit around at the top, we could have just reached over and pat them. And then I was like, oh my god, I just I wonder if they're hurt. And as we sat there, they all sort of swam away. And they completely breached came out of the water from nose from tip to tail, you could see them all, they hadn't done this before, one after the other all for them. So you could see that they were just fine. And then they swam away.
Dan Seguin 43:24
Okay, moving on to the next one here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Marren Smith 43:32
Yeah, it's been this plethora of Zoom meeting staring at a screen hours after hour. And I'll tell you that I zipped out and got myself a stationary bike. And so during those zoom calls, everybody at first was laughing at me because I'd be kind of wiggling back and forth as I rode the bike slowly, just to keep myself going. And now all kinds of colleagues have now purchased stationary bikes as well.
Dan Seguin 44:09
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show right now?
Marren Smith 44:17
You know, a number of months ago, my family and I went to see The Last City with Sandra Bullock just like a ridiculous funny comedy and I was laughing out loud. And I was just like, you know, it was after the depths of COVID. It just felt great to laugh out loud at something that was just completely goofy and frivolous.
Dan Seguin 44:43
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Marren Smith 44:49
It's the potential for the speed of change. You know, things are moving quickly. And it's that things can move quickly now Technology is ready for primetime. public understands that we need to take climate action. And governments and business are really seeing that economic strategy is going, you know, is is so linked to climate action. They see them as one in the same decarbonisation is what the economic future looks like.
Dan Seguin 45:25
Well, Marren, we've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, if our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how could they connect?
Marren Smith 45:37
Yeah, you can find us at cleanenergycanada.org. And you can also sign up on that for the Clean Energy Review, which is an email we send out every Monday morning that I hear from people in all walks of life from CEOs and ministers to receptionists and friends who don't even work in this. It's got the top 10 upbeat, optimistic solution based stories of the week, you can scan it in two minutes, or you can click on things and dive into these things in more details.
Dan Seguin 46:11
Again, Marren, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Marren Smith 46:16
I do. Thanks a lot for having me.
Dan Seguin 46:19
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Small-scale technologies like solar panels and on-site battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become more energy independent. In this episode, we talk with Dick Bakker, Director of the Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative (OREC), about his personal switch to solar power, OREC’s role as an advocate for renewable energy, and more.
Related links
Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative: https://www.orec.ca/
Dick’s article: https://www.orec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Vistas-Jan-2024-2pages.pdf
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube
Follow along on Instagram
Stay in the know on Facebook
Keep up with the posts on X
---
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. In today's era, there is a growing desire among residents to take charge of their energy consumption not only to manage costs, but also to actively generate their own power. Traditionally, electricity has been generated at large power plants and transmitted over extensive distances to homes and businesses, leaving consumers with little influence over the source of their electricity. However, advancements in small scale technologies such as solar panels and onsite battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become energy self-sufficient. In addition to these technologies, the integration of smart thermostats, vehicle to grid charging stations and heat pumps is further reshaping the dialogue around energy generation, conservation, and being active participants in an emission free future. Today, Canadians have the opportunity to take control of virtually every aspect of their energy consumption and interaction. The landscape of energy is evolving, putting the power back into the hands of individuals and communities alike. So here's today's big question. What role will innovative technologies and decentralized energy solutions play in shaping the future energy independence for individuals and communities? Joining us today is Dick Bakker, an Ottawa area homeowner that recently published an article about his experience installing a solar panel system on his home. Dick is also the director of an auto renewable energy cooperative, so brings a unique perspective on other small scale renewable projects his organization has been involved in. Dick, welcome to the show.
Dick Bakker 02:34
Thank you very much.
Dan Seguin 02:36
Now, you recently published an article about the process of installing solar panels on your home. What inspired you and your family to make the switch to solar power? And why did you decide to share your experience in this article,
Dick Bakker 02:52
It was a long process, I actually had to go back to 98 when the ice storm hit Eastern, Northeastern the US and Canada. At that time, I was working in the internet equipment business. And I watched the world stop and became fascinated with how it happened. And that caused a restart and an interest in energy that I had from the 70s during the oil crisis. And I found the electricity grid to be very similar to the telecom industry, then in oh three. So in 98, we were out of power here for seven days. People across the road had power, so we're okay, but we just didn't have power in our house. We just live with them. Then in Oh, three the trees in Ohio shut down North America again. And I couldn't believe that that could happen again. But at that time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in North America to come back on stream fully. It took us almost four weeks for the whole province to come back. But Quebec was lit up okay. And they actually had bars on the hunt in the hall side looking at the lights going off in Ontario. But I asked myself why the heck is this. And I realized very quickly that it was because of our big nuclear plants. They're so big, and so rigid. The premier at the time couldn't get the citizens of Ontario to turn off their air conditioning units because of the heatwave we were in. And Quebec was unaffected. Well, why? And I learned it is the centralized nature of Ontario's power grid, and the lack of demand management that we have here. Because of that, anyway, I became fascinated with electricity regulations, and all of that. And that eventually led to me becoming part of the Ottawa renewable energy cooperative, where I learned through hard knocks the problems of the electricity system, the predatory protective regulations, and this new idea called distributed energy resources. Anyway, long and short, I finally realized that we needed to do something at home. And that came about eventually to us putting solar on the house when certain regulations changed. I wrote the article so that I could share my experiences of how the Ontario electricity system works, what we can do about it, and I wrote it for the local community newspaper, the VISTAs, I live in Alta Vista. And through my work at Oreck and my own interests in this house and making it more efficient and cheaper to run, I learned an awful lot and that information should be spread, I thought, okay, Dick,
Dan Seguin 05:24
In your article, you mentioned the challenges you and your neighbors face during the durational storm that hit Ottawa in 2022. And the tornado in 2018. How did these experiences influence your decision to invest in solar and other distributed energy resources specifically?
Dick Bakker 05:46
Well, specific? A lot. They were instrumental. So I've lived in this house for 30 years and Alta Vista, we've been out of power for longer than five days, four times. In the 98 ice storm, the 2003 trees in Ohio that fell over and shut down North America, 2018 Tornado, and the 2022 Derecho. And then there was also another big ice storm in the spring of 23. But we'll leave that aside, it didn't affect us too much. So after the 2022 Derecho, my neighbor and I were discussing what had happened, were both out for 10 days, and he was beside himself because he didn't have anywhere to go. They want to get off the grid completely. And he knew I was involved in the Ottawa, renewable energy cooperative, or Rec. And I told him, You can't go off grid because it's not worthwhile. It's not effective, you're getting a subsidized price of electricity, which didn't, he didn't like hearing that. But I said, you're just we're just not paying enough for our electricity. We're getting it so cheap, it doesn't make sense to put solar on your roof. Besides, we both had trees in our cell site. So that was then I explained to him the centralized nature of the grid. 60% of our power comes from three nuclear sites. Bruce Darlington and Pickering. Pickering being 14%. The pension funds like to invest in big centralized power plants, big shiny objects that the world can see. And the long lines that bring the power from way over there to our little corner is like a cash stream that the incumbents want to keep. They're not interested in distributed energy resources, or D are spread around. But that's where we should be going that time in 2022. Knowing what I knew of the regulations and the orientation of the provincial government, I couldn't see ever having the potential to put solar on your house. Sorry, I couldn't see the financial justification of putting solar on the house. And on top of that, the present government is subsidizing our electricity bills to the tune of 7 billion a year five and a half billion of that is going to general subsidies to the middle class and upper class not targeted to the poor. So at some point that's going to rise. The rating agencies will correct that by threatening to downgrade Ontario's credit rating but all that to say it's still subsidized, so it's not worth putting it on. Then in 2023, January, the Ontario government came out with some changes and started encouraging net metering and local generation.
Dan Seguin 08:28
Okay, now, did you also discuss the changing landscape of Ontario's electricity rules, specifically mentioning the Ontario Energy Boards directive in 2023? What changed that, in your opinion, helped to facilitate the adoption of solar power and what challenges still exist for homeowners today?
Dick Bakker 08:51
Thanks, Dan. That directive from the Ontario Energy Board and 23 was was a game changer for the province. I don't think they realize what potential they unleash them. So from 2018 When the Conservative government took power, they had a big grid only mentality. They wanted big power plants and long lines to deliver the power to the homes and the rules around net metering, which is the only way you can put solar on your house and stay connected to the grid. That's where you generate power, consume it yourself, and trade credits for your over summer for your summer overproduction for your winter consumption or purchases from the grid. So that pricing scheme was basically rigged against the homeowner because homeowners were forced to go to the tiered pricing scheme. So just on that situation, and up until 2023. Net metering wasn't very cost effective because of the pricing, but it could work. Technically, the grid acts as a battery so you're never out of power. So that rule kept me way from thinking of solar on my house. Also, I had trees to the south of the house. So the best place to put the solar panels wouldn't be productive. I don't want to cut the trees down, because that keeps my air conditioning costs low, and they're nice. But then in 23, the province changed the rules around net metering, and came up with an ultra low overnight rate. So the key thing about net metering, they said the local distribution companies would have to give the net metering customer the option to pick their rate class. So you go to a time of use rate if you wish. And then you get value for your time value of electricity. So if you're producing an high rate, you get the high rate in your credits. Okay, so that's good, then they came up with an ultra low overnight time of use rate, third rate class to encourage every user to charge at night, not during the evening dinnertime when everybody's turning on lights and eaters and all their devices. So they want to reduce consumption during the peak hour, and increase consumption at the low hour. And if you produce solar during the four to 9pm, period at 28 cents, that's what you pay, you get credits for 28 cents, that is much better economics for the homeowner, the end user and the solar producer. That's when I realized that my house was actually ideal because I've got a very low sloped roof. The South Side is full of trees, but the north side is clear. And the North side's going to produce more during the four to eight o'clock pm in the summertime at 28 cents. So one hour of that can offset 10 hours at the 2.8 cents for the low rate. So that was one thing. The other thing is I have an EV. We have heat pumps. We just installed a heat pump water heater, so I can time shift my consumption to the low overnight rate, I think it's pretty good. I still think the cost of electricity is going to rise more. So my return on investment is only going to improve because putting all of this in is an insurance policy against that rising cost of electricity. You also asked what are the continuing challenges? The challenges for solar? on the residential side are buildings and trees. How's the building built? Which way are the roofs pointing? Where are the trees? What kind of shading do they throw? But the good thing is that in the summertime, the sun is very high in Canada, so the sun will come straight down more or less. And in the wintertime when there's no snow on your roof. Or even if there's a little bit of snow on the roof. Solar production is marginally better because it's cold. So the physics is better. So there's still lots of opportunity for solar even in this cold northern climate. The challenges are of course buildings and trees to a certain point the supply chain there aren't enough installers, electricians to do all the work that should be done can be done hydro Ottawa, a staff just to get the installations done the upgrades for the grid. But hydro Ottawa needs Ottawa residents to spend this money on their own Diyar so that you can meet your new targets for the year. So I think people who do this on their own are doing it for themselves, but indirectly they're doing it for the betterment of the overall grid, driving down the cost of electricity. Solar does not drive up the cost of electricity when producing nuclear plants drives up the cost of electricity. Okay.
Dan Seguin 13:40
Could you maybe provide more details on the cost and capacity of your solar panel system? What were the economic aspects of your investment, including any government incentives or rebates that may have influenced your decision?
Dick Bakker 13:56
So in my specific installation, I have 37 panels in total. 24 of them are on the north slope and 13 panels on the south slope. So total DC kilowatt of 14.43. That's going through a nine kilowatt inverter. I have no panels on the south slope because there are three big trees there. If I had panels there, it would probably be a third smaller for the same generation. So over 12 months, I expect to generate about 10,246 kilowatt hours. That's 78% of 2020 two's consumption and my electricity consumption includes 90% of our driving because I have an Eevee and a plug in hybrid Evie 90% of our driving 100% of our cooling 40% of our heating a little more than 40% this year because it's a warm winter and 100% of our lights and appliances. So I've got a gas station on my roof and I've got a furnace on my roof effectively because of the ultra low overnight time of use rate. I am confident that with time shifting I can cover 100% of my electricity purchases, not my connection charges 100% of my electricity cost with something like 78% of my electricity kilowatts, because of the time shifting between ultra low and peak rate, the overall cost was $30,478 for the equipment, plus HST electricity upgrade to 200 amp service, some internal wiring changes, and I reached angled under the panels on the north and east, I didn't do the South because it doesn't quite need it effectively, I future proof my house for 30 plus years of electricity, I've given myself 30 years plus of electricity, price insurance and forced savings. And I predict that the credit rating agencies at some point will force the province to reduce the subsidies we're giving to the middle and the upper class and electricity costs. And that'll drive up the electricity rates a little bit, not massively, and I'll be protected from that. or whoever's living here because I'm getting old. So I think the house value of homes that have solar are going to hold their value better than a new kitchen cabinet or a new, new whatever that the new owner pulls out and replaces, you know, you're not going to be replacing solar on a roof if it's reducing your utility bills.
Dan Seguin 16:23
Okay, now our batteries, shifting your energy use away from daytime usage, or other distributed energy resources a consideration?
Dick Bakker 16:33
Well, that's a very good question, because the one thing I haven't done in the house yet is put a battery and a disconnect Island. And that's the next thing I'm going to look at during the summertime, I do these things one at a time to make sure they work and see how they operate. So the next thing will be a battery probably in the garage, if it's appropriate. And the not sure the proper technical term islanding device to allow me to operate separate from the grid. And if I ever buy another car, it'll be an Eevee with to a charging, so that I'll be able to charge my house and the battery over the course of the year, so the battery will be there for a disaster. But over the course of the year, I'll be able to draw power from the solar on the roof, and from the grid at the low rate stored and discharge it to the grid during the peak rate. So that makes my neighbor's grid a little more resilient. And in a crisis, I can be Island as opposed to the noisy gas generators that are sitting around my neighborhood.
Dan Seguin 17:37
Shifting gears a bit now as the director of the auto renewable energy cooperatives since its creation in 2009. Can you share how it works? And what are some of the projects that your coop has built?
Dick Bakker 17:54
Sure, certainly. So OREC is a for profit, renewable energy Co Op that enables residents of Ottawa to be restricted to Ontario by certain rules that I won't get into. So it allows residents of Ottawa and mostly Eastern Ontario but Ontario to benefit from distributed energy resources in their own region, we build our own renewable energy generation. Presently, solar and wind, energy conservation assets, commercial building, lighting installation, retrofit projects that keep the electrons jobs and profits local. So we have 22 solar systems in place now, most of them or the feed in tariff contracts. Three of them are net metering projects, one at the Museum of Science and Tech, two at the French Catholic High School Board, Mere Blue and Paul Desmarais. And then 18 other feed in tariff contracts where we have a contract to sell the power to the grid. At a net metering project. We sell the power to the building. Then we also have two wind projects down in southwestern Ontario and three energy retrofit projects. We had five but two of them have finished their contractor. So the solar projects are on housing coops, burns, schools, museums, factories, and two of them are I'd say medium sized ground mounts, 500 kilowatt ground mounts, the two wind projects. One is a 2.3 megawatt project at Tiverton, just outside of the Bruce nuclear plant and a little funny story I like to tell everyone is that the Bruce nuclear plant doesn't supply power to the neighborhood. All the electricity from Bruce nuclear goes to Toronto on the transmission lines because they connect it to the distribution grid and Temperton that blows all the light bulbs so they feed Toronto and then it trickles all the way back to Tim Burton. The wind project that we have outside of Tim Burton is a standalone turbine and it feeds the distribution grid. So should heaven forbid should Bruce nuclear go down? Some of the people will have electricity coming from our wind turbine. The people that are working at Bruce nuclear will have power at home, not because of the nuclear plant. The second wind turbine is an 800 kilowatt project in Zurich directly south of there. That's a wonderful area for wind. Most of the wind projects in that area are large projects owned by American pension funds, feeding Toronto, all of the power is going on the transmission lines. So getting back to Oh, Rick in general. So we have solar wind and lighting retrofits at the IRA center, condo, and housing coops. All of our projects are revenue generating with proven technologies and solid counterparties. So pretty comfortable with the security of those assets. The board is made up of pretty experienced people, engineers, lawyers, business development, accountants comms people. I'm a bit of a generalist. But I have worked in telecom and technical fields my whole life, not as an engineer, we have 980 members, 500 of them, about half of them have invested over $11 million in equity and debt in our project since we started. And we've paid dividends every year since 2013. When our first project came online, we had repaid to our members over 3.5 million in dividends, interest and capital repayment with very little outside debt, we'd rather pair members than banks, no offense banks, but we want to keep the money within the family within the community. Our main function is to act as an investment cooperative for our members. So we spend most of our time looking for projects to build and or buy, and then raise the community capital to build, operate, repeat, get more projects, raise more capital, pay out the dividends and capital. But we do have to spend an awful lot of money on advocacy work to change the regulations, or maintain whatever regulations are, to promote distributed energy resources of all types. But the second core function that we want to do more of is utilize the knowledge of our 1000 members and create them. It's happening already organically, but we want to have more regular information sessions between our members who are doing things like I just did. We have the largest concentration of any 1000 People in the Ottawa Valley in the province. I think of people who have D er installed in their homes. So we have a lot of end users, battery users, people with knowledge of heat pumps and stuff like that. So we are a group of friends with knowledge of the ER.
Dan Seguin 22:34
Okay now, Dick, when did things really take off with the co-op? And are members seeing dividends?
Dick Bakker 22:42
Well, that's a good question. Because the first offering that we raised was in 2012. And we didn't know how it was going to go, it actually went better than we expected, our minimum requirement was to raise half a million dollars. And in those nine weeks that we had, we raised $970,000, and more cash than we actually needed for what we had to do. And ever since then, we've we're now on our 10th Raise, each raise has gone better than expected. We've always raised more cash than we had projects at that time. So for a period there, we were building up too much cash and didn't have enough projects for them. So projects come more harder than the money or the members, the membership has grown very well. And the equity in the cooperative has been very good. And I'm also proud to say that we've paid dividends every year, since 2013. In the last couple of years, it's been 4%. We'd like it to be higher, but we've had to build everything from scratch without any outside cash. We've just started our latest raise, it's going to close on August 28, I believe. And we're looking for new members with new equity, and that equity can be RRSP or TFSA. It's an investment in the portfolio of 27 existing projects, and the new projects that we're going to be building in the coming year.
Dan Seguin 24:11
Now, let's talk about the changing relationship between electricity consumers and producers. How do you see this evolving in the coming years? And what role do you think individuals and communities will play in the broader energy transition?
Dick Bakker 24:32
This is going to be the biggest change in our society in the coming years. I think we're going to move from being ratepayers with very little agency beyond paying our bills and turning off lights to prosumers or producer consumers who have the ability to produce electricity for conservation, which is what I'm doing or for profit and or for profit when the regulations in Ontario Are you allow hydro Ottawa to buy excess power from homeowners? Right now you can't. So we'll be able to conserve and profit from our assets on our roof. And we'll also be able to actively manage our consumption, again for conservation and profit. So right now we're able to reduce our demand and shift our demand from peak load to low load. But in the future, I'm pretty sure that Ontario will follow California and New York and allow for aggressive demand response programs. And what we'd like to do at some point in the future, as OREC is allow our members to pool their batteries and solar panels and air conditioners, so that we can turn down consumption as the grid gets choked or or constrained. So we just saw what happened in Alberta, they had no demand management program, they turned down some gas plants for renovation in the peak of winter, and then they got hit with a big demand. During a cold period. The only way they got out of their problem was begging their customers to turn down their home heating systems. The citizens responded, but the downtown office towers left their lights on all night. That's absurd. So going forward, I think that the LDCs will be paying people to turn down their demand, because we need the grid to be balanced. We don't need excess generation or excess demand or under demand, we need everything balanced. So a megawatt is as good as a megawatt.
Dan Seguin 26:52
Okay, thank you for that, in your opinion now. What is the city or province doing well, and what improvements need to be made? Now you gotta behave?
Dick Bakker 27:04
I'll try to behave. How long do we have? I don't want to rant. But it's hard not to. On the city site. If there's a climate emergency act like there is one, people should not be buying coffee from an idling car. Housing is energy, stopping natural gas expansion. The Better Homes program is a wonderful program of the city. Because it addresses the upfront costs of retrofitting and DTR and solar and all those things. It ties that cost to a 20 year loan fixed to the House tax bill, not to the person. I'm 68. I may not be in this house for 10 years, I tend to be here longer, but my intention and reality may be different. So we need to have the cost of long term assets spread over years. The Better Homes program says that the city should be encouraging solar and small wind for resilience purposes. Every large group should have solar and there should be wind turbines scattered throughout Eastern Ontario, not just in rural areas in batches of 50. There should be a couple of wind turbines in urban Ottawa with the proper setbacks. That's the city in the province. Every month Ontario's paying out $1.3 billion in gasoline and diesel costs. There's lots of money for the energy transition. You just have to shift it around. Let the nuclear plants run their course, don't shut them down early, but don't pour money down a sinkhole. We just announced today Pickering expansion, well Pickering retrofit, it's the oldest nuclear plant in North America. The province is in a pickle because they know the nukes will be late. The small modular reactors aren't small modular. They are big reactors, they can only go on the transmission lines. That demand is all over the province at the end of the distribution lines where we live and work and EVs and heat pumps are so just let the nuclear plants slow down or wear out. The Donsky Report to the Independent Electricity systems operator said the lowest cost of new energy in the provinces D er of all types. It's just regulations that are stopping it and it makes the province more resilient. So the province can have every city have a similar program to Otto as the Better Homes program. Secondly, remove the Ontario electricity rebate that's putting $5.5 million dollars of taxpayer money into the pockets of people who leave their lights on and put that money instead in the distribution lines allow every kind of virtual net metering in the province especially community solar gardens so that citizens could own the solar on a swimming pool hockey rink. Any facility that is used for a disaster recovery facility should be generating power day to day and then have the ability to island in a crisis and resilience See should be the first order of the electricity grid, proper costs but resiliency and localized and generally liberalize the rules around generation and distribution. Okay,
Dan Seguin 30:10
Does the co-op or its members have an objective to promote or advocate for renewable energy and distributed energy resources in the community or with local governments? Yes,
Dick Bakker 30:23
In every way, as a co op, and with other coops for community scale projects, 100 kilowatt to one or two megawatt is the size of projects that is natural for us. That's the kind of thing that citizens are going to be interested in and seeing and owning, but we are going to work in the bigger projects on the transmission side, but we're advocating for that all the time, spend a lot more time helping our members to act as individuals with information and examples, the whole idea of friends with knowledge to get them to put in their own home systems. So yes, we spend way too much time advocating on behalf of the ER.
Dan Seguin 31:03
Okay, now, are you seeing your co-op's focus areas reflected in government policy, either municipally or provincially? How do you ensure your voices are heard?
Dick Bakker 31:17
We're starting to see a focus on D er, but I'm not yet seeing action, hard, hard action on the ER except for a few exceptions. Hydro Ottawa with the IESO is right now focused on solar DERs as a conservation measure, there's a bunch of regulations around it. I won't get into that right now. So that's good. And the dusky report and the ultra low time of use rate, those are all very good things. But today, they've just announced the massive expenditure on Pickering, which locks us further into the centralized focus of the province. The orientation of all electricity grids is to build big things far away that will break at some point. We're here in Ottawa, and we see all these federal buildings, there's only a few of them that have sold on them. The federal government doesn't do a good job of buying from small organizations like us. So we've had lots of discussions with the feds, but they want to do massive things that the reporters can write about. We're advocating as ourselves and with other coops nationally and provincially in every province, because that's where electricity and Co Op law resides. And we have formed a national association called the Community Energy cooperatives Canada, which is based in Saskatoon right now and has 25 coops from across the country. The fastest growing area of renewable energy coops in Canada is Alberta because they have the most liberalized power grid. So that'll be our national voice. But it'll be a voice at the federal and more importantly, at the provincial level, because that's where electricity lives. We work a lot with the European res Co Op, who have been very successful in Europe to get the EU to pass a directive that says every citizen of the EU has the right to own, operate, store, share, and save their own renewable electricity. So if we get the federal government to encourage that, all they can do is bribe, encourage and embarrass the provinces. If we could get the federal government to pass a directive like that. That's EU directive 2018 -201. If anybody's interested, we get that kind of directive from the federal government. That'll put pressure and embarrassment on the provinces to loosen up their grids. Alberta and Nova Scotia have moved the furthest along in this area, Ontario and Quebec and Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the big laggards but we have to move that way and oh wreck with our friends in the other coops can push that. We're all voters. We're all voting with our money and our ballots, and the last thing, banks will notice the difference.
Dan Seguin 34:03
Lastly, Dick, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?
Dick Bakker 34:12
Yes, sir.
Dan Seguin 34:13
Okay, what are you reading right now?
Dick Bakker 34:16
Well, two books, one is called treeing energy by Bill Nussey. It's all about the wonderful economics of Home DER technologies. And the other is by my favorite author Guy Vanderhaeghe, August Into Winter. And not a book but fascinating about Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan and Manitoba crime scene set in 39. With the Spanish Civil War in the coming world war two is the backdrop. It's great.
Dan Seguin 34:44
What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Dick Bakker 34:47
There ain't no easy road. Those are the words of a song I love called Jericho by Fred Eagle Smith. My wife gave me a paddle with this phrase on it a few years ago as a birthday present.
Dan Seguin 34:59
Next, who is someone that you admire?
Dick Bakker 35:01
Peggy my, my wife, mother of my children, business partner, best friend and a no BS problem solver.
Dan Seguin 35:09
Okay? What was the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed
Dick Bakker 35:15
Birth of a child who grows into an adult who has a child. Now,
Dan Seguin 35:19
Now, as a result of the pandemic? Many of us are guilty of watching a little too much TV or movies. What is your favorite movie or show? What are you watching right now?
Dick Bakker 35:31
I'd have to say the Danish movie Borgan. It's a Danish TV series on politics and the trade offs and the personalities that shows the human side of difficult decision making. It's great.
Dan Seguin 35:46
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Dick Bakker 35:51
Well, the electricity industry has got the possibility to democratize energy to revitalize communities and especially rural communities. So with renewables and DDR and cooperatives, we can keep the electrons' jobs and profits local. Okay,
Dan Seguin 36:10
Dick, our listeners, if they want to learn more about you, how do they connect?
Dick Bakker 36:15
Probably the best way is to go online and check. www.orec.ca or orec website.
Dan Seguin 36:24
This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Dick Bakker 36:33
I did. Thank you very much, Dan. It's wonderful.
Dan Seguin 36:37
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
We’ve spoken with many experts about electric vehicles (EVs) in Canada, covering everything from adoption trends to announcements, projects, and policies. This episode curates some of the most informative takeaways from these discussions. Envision Canada’s EV future with Daniel Breton of Electric Mobility Canada, Emma Jarratt of Electric Autonomy Canada, Cara Clairman of Plug’nDrive, and Loren McDonald of EVAdoption.
Related links
Daniel Breton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
Electric Mobility Canada: http://https://emc-mec.ca
Emma Jarratt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-jarratt-ba552727/
Electric Autonomy Canada: https://electricautonomy.ca/
Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/
Plug’nDrive: http://www.plugndrive.ca
Loren McDonald on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenmcdonald/
EVAdoption: http://www.https://evadoption.com
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
----------------
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In today's podcast episode will focus on some of the most impactful conversations we had about electric vehicles EVs and Canada's mandate to make all light duty vehicles and passenger truck sales 100% zero emission by 2035. Interim electric vehicle targets include 20% of all vehicle sales by 2026 and 60% by 2030. If the stats are any indication, Canadians are getting on board according to s&p global, the share of the new registration of light duty zero emission vehicles in Canada in the third quarter of 2023 reached 13.3%, or one in eight new vehicles. This is up by 40% from the third quarter in 2022. There is no doubt that the federal government believes that zero emission vehicles are part of the solution to a stronger economy, cleaner air and healthier environment and good jobs. To facilitate this. We've all read about the factory announcements in 2023 that will develop a homegrown electric vehicle supply chain. There's Volkswagens 20 billion Ontario battery factory for turning its Oakville auto assembly plant into a 1.8 billion EV industrial park. There's the auto supplier Magna investing half a billion dollars into the EV supply chain right here in Ontario and Sweden's Northolt. Building a multimillion-dollar EV battery plant in Quebec. In today's episode, we're going to revisit some of the EV experts we've talked to on the show over the last couple of years and pull out the best nuggets of wisdom to share with you today. Our first highlight is with Daniel Breton from Electric Mobility Canada about what has spurred EV adoptions and the expected overall benefits to Canadians. What's been the most significant event innovation or policy that you think has changed the future trajectory for mass EV adoption for the better?
Daniel Breton 02:55
Well, I think there's not one thing in particular, you know, that has made it possible, I would say that's a growing, or it's a number of things. So obviously, battery technology has evolved quickly, over the past 1015-20 years. Just to give you an example, between 2008 to 2020. Volume density of the battery has grown eight-fold. So, when you look at batteries today you can have a lot more capacity. And a battery now than you had five years ago, 10 years ago, and it's going to keep growing as time goes by a lot of people seem to think that if you have let's say, a 60-kilowatt hour battery, it's going to be four times the size than a 15-kilowatt hour battery from let's say 2010. Actually, it's not the case at all. It's just that it has more capacity, and smaller volume per kilowatt hour, meaning that actually weight has not increased as fast as capacity. So, to me, that's very important. The other thing is that infrastructure, infrastructure deployment and infrastructure evolution has made a big difference. Just to give you an example. 10 years ago, the average electric car had 120 kilometers of range. Now it's 450. So, in 10 years, it's quadrupled. At the same time, 10 years ago, if you wanted to charge your electric car, there were hardly any fast chargers on the road. So, for example, when I was working in Montreal that I had to go to the National Assembly, I could not buy an electric car, I had to buy a plug-in hybrid electric car, because there was no fast charger but between Montreal and Quebec, that's 10 years ago. Now, if you go five years ago, a fast charger had a 50-kilowatt charger So that meant that we went from charging 120 kilometers of range in about four or five hours to charging 120 kilometers of range in about half an hour. And now with new fast chargers, you know, you know, going from 50 kilowatt to 150-kilowatt, 250 kilowatt and even 350 kilowatts, you can charge 120 kilometers of range in 10 minutes. So, things have accelerated regarding the technology of infrastructures as well. Education is making a big difference because more and more people are interested in EVs. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I'm often surprised to hear the same questions I was being asked 5-10-15-20 years ago regarding battery life, for instance. But I still do get those questions on social media and even sometimes on regular media.
Dan Seguin 06:03
I've got a follow up question here for you. What are some of the overall benefits as a nation when we reach 100% EV passenger sales by 2030, and all other vehicles by 2040?
Daniel Breton 06:18
Well, I would say that the first benefit is lower emissions is going to make a hell of a difference. Because you know, a lot of people say that GHG emissions from transportation represent 24% of Canada's total GHG emissions. But that's only downstream emissions. When you add upstream emissions, it's 30%, meaning that transportation is the number one source of GHG emissions in Canada. But that's huge emissions, so lowering them by I would say 50 to 80%, because you have to keep in mind that you have GHG emissions from electricity production, although it's getting much better. I mean, the last coal plant is going to close next year in Alberta. And, Nova Scotia intends to go. I think it's 80% renewable by 2030. So as time goes by, electric vehicles become cleaner and cleaner because the grid is becoming clearer and cleaner. So that's one thing. But the other thing, which is super important, and people seem to forget, is that according to Health Canada, they released a report on the impact of air pollution last year, the economic cost of air pollution is estimated at $120 billion, not millions, billions 100 $20 billion from air pollution, and that's 15,300 premature deaths, which is eight times the death toll of car accidents. So, if we bring more electric vehicles on the road, it's going to significantly lower air pollution, whether it's from light duty vehicles, or medium or heavy duty vehicles. So it's going to save billions of dollars to Canadians, help our healthcare system and save 1000s of lives. I mean, this is not insignificant. This is very important. And this is something I think that needs to be said. And last but not least jobs. I've been talking about this, believe it or not, I've been coming to the House of Commons because from where I am, I can see the House of Commons right here because I'm in debt note this morning. I started to talk about the EV industry about 15 or 16 years ago to the federal government saying that we need to transition our automotive sector from gas to electric because that's where the industry is going. So, there was really not much of any interest for years. But now the federal government has really caught on, I have to salute Minister Chabang for his leadership on this particular issue to make sure to attract EV assembly, battery assembly, battery manufacturing, critical minerals strategy. So, we are seeing a real shift. I mean, you have to keep in mind that between 2020 and 2020 light duty vehicle production in Canada has been going down and down and down time and time again. We went from being the fourth biggest manufacturer in the world to not even be at the top 10 in 2020. Now because the federal government, the Ontario government, the Quebec government and other Canadian governments are investing more and more on the EV supply chain in the EV industry. We are seeing a revival of the automotive sector in Ontario. And to me this is significant. And if we hadn't done this, there will not be an automotive sector by 2030 or 22. 35 So this is huge.
Dan Seguin 10:02
On this topic of investments. I had the pleasure of speaking with Emma Jarrett, the Executive Editor of Electric Autonomy Canada. She's extensively covered Canada's grown EV manufacturing, infrastructure and battery sectors. Here's what Emma had to say on the topic. There's been a lot of news and announcements made recently. Can you talk about what stands out for you as the most notable electric vehicle projects or initiatives currently underway in Canada that you're excited about? And maybe why?
Emma Jarrett 10:37
Sure. So, I think everyone stops and takes an extra pause, when you hear there's a factory worth billions and billions of dollars going in. And that's, you know, maybe the third or fourth announcement of that type you've heard in a few months, it's really quite remarkable. The industry that's been attracted by the new investments that are coming into Canada, it's almost unprecedented. So, to see that play out, in real time to get to cover it, you know, it's a privilege. It's very interesting for me, I learn a lot every single day. And I think that, you know, the bird's eye view of the situation is that this is a real moment. And in our history, we're building a supply chain in this country that we've never had before. And it's going to be very interesting when we're looking back on it to see what kind of a fork in the road it represents for Canada that we seize this opportunity. What I'm most excited about with the announcements is the supply chain as a whole and decarbonizing that. So, it's great that we have factories that make batteries. But it would be better if they were all powered by non-emitting electricity. And it would be fantastic if the trucks that brought the refined minerals to those factories to go into the batteries were zero emission trucks, and the mining vehicles that pulled the minerals out of the ground. Were all electric. That to me is the big piece of this, you know, the whole supply chain needs to be decarbonized.
Dan Seguin 12:06
Okay, Emma, at the 2023 Federal Budget announced billions of tax credits and financing to attract investments in manufacturing, energy and tech sectors. Can you unpack some of the highlights that stood out for you in the budget as it relates to electric mobility or maybe clean energy?
Emma Jarrett 12:26
Sure. So, the big question with this year's budget was, how is it going to respond to the United States inflation Reduction Act, which was, you know, a $369 billion omnibus bill? And, you know, is it is going to squash Canada flat, we just don't have that kind of economic power at that scale. So, when the budget came out this year, I think everyone was very surprised and tentatively impressed if, if it rolls out the way some of the politicians are saying it will, that for the EV industry, and the clean tech, you know, you can, we can go toe to toe with the US using $55 billion, which is, you know, less than a quarter than what the US is, is spending. So that was just interesting. And I don't know enough about economic gymnastics to be able to say one way or the other if this is going to be a success, but it's an interesting strategy. And I look forward to seeing how it plays out. Aside from the IRA maneuvers, I was really pleased to see a new tax credit come up for decarbonization of Canada's grids $25.7 billion in tax credits to move towards sustainable, renewable, in most cases, sources of energy. And as an extension of that also smart peak management, you know, with battery storage and better load prediction and understanding. I think that's really important.
Dan Seguin 14:00
Now your coverage and knowledge of the electric mobility industry is extensive. What are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 targets?
Emma Jarrett 14:14
We have a very long way to go. I don't think we can pretend otherwise. The steps that are being taken are encouraging. But this is a really, really big shift to turn. I think the targets are possible to meet. I don't think they were unreasonable or pie in the sky. I really do think that it is achievable whether or not it happens who can say, I hope so. And I think that whenever I hear somebody saying, you know, being pushed too fast, or they're naysaying the targets, I go, okay, fair, but can you tell me what you think the alternative is to not meeting them? We're looking at a pretty stark future environmentally if action is not taken, and I am was of the opinion that some action is better than sitting there and doing nothing.
Dan Seguin 15:03
I couldn't agree more with Emma. Okay, moving on. In this next clip, I speak to Cara Clairman, President and CEO of Plug'n'Drive, who shared her perspective on the barriers that still exist to consumers, choosing EVs and the role municipalities play in moving this needle. Here's what Cara had to say when I asked what the main barriers are to EV ownership.
Cara Clairman 15:36
Okay, well, there's lots of barriers still remaining, although we're making lots of good progress. We did a survey about four years ago. And I think the results probably would hold true today as well, asking people about what was preventing them from choosing an electric vehicle. And actually, the number one barrier was price, which surprised us. We expected people to say range or lack of public infrastructure or something like that. But three to one, they actually said, they thought EVs were too expensive. And so, we know that the upfront sticker price is a problem for people, it is still a bit more expensive than the equivalent gas car. What people don't really know is that the total cost of ownership of an EV, even at today's prices is less. But it's always a challenge to help people understand you're going to pay more now and save later. And we have to help people see the advantage of doing that. So, I would say you know, cost and then also education because you have to help people understand that total cost of ownership over time. And actually, to help consumers on that specific point, we've, we've put a really great new tool on our website called 'Find your EV match', which really helps you see the total cost of ownership for electric vehicles income, and you can even compare an EV to your existing gas car that you currently drive and see your monthly savings. And so, this is a really, really important point. I would also say, of course, you know, we do need more infrastructure, and there still is some range hesitancy concern, but I really believe that the range issue is going away as an issue as the battery technology improves. And of course, as public infrastructure improves,
Dan Seguin 17:29
It would seem that municipalities across Canada have a large part to play to support the government's mandate, and to make charging stations more accessible. In your experience. Has this been the case? What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit?
Cara Clairman 17:46
Yeah, municipalities do have an important role to play and I think they are starting to recognize it more and more. So, for example, one role that municipalities are playing and it's proving really important is in terms of standards for multi-unit buildings. So for example, a municipality can require a certain green standard for condos or multi-unit buildings being built in their in their territory and that will ensure that the you know roughing is there for the plugs in future and that new buildings will get built with you know, with the ability or sort of EV ready to help their citizens because let's face it, especially in the Greater Toronto Area, a lot of people live in multi-unit and we need to make it possible for these people to plug in there's other roles they can play for example, we're seeing a lot of municipalities set up you know their own EV policies for their you know, for public parking, for example, street parking for for different, making certain municipal lots available for charging. There's lots of ways that municipalities can help and there are, you know, through the associations, there's sharing I know of EV policies across municipalities that don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Dan Seguin 19:10
No need to reinvent the wheel. I love this good pun. Now. Last, but certainly not least, is my interview with the EV evangelist himself, Loren McDonnell of EV Adoption. Loren has spent decades analyzing trends in EVs and charging technology. He joined me on the show to share his thoughts and had some surprising and insightful things to say. What has been the most important or significant recent event in your opinion, that will positively change the future for electric vehicles?
Loren McDonald 19:50
I would say there's sort of two things that are kind of closely connected. One is the Ford F 150 Lightning, as you as you both probably know, you know, and pickups are pretty popular and candidate as well. But you know, the F 150, the regular F 150 internal combustion engine has been the top selling vehicle, not just pickup, but the top selling vehicle of any type in America, and actually the world for 40 straight years. And so the fact that this sort of mainstream popular vehicle, a pickup truck is actually and it's being delivered. Now the first deliveries are starting, like this week of the electric version is, I've called it this the game changer, the single most important EV in history, right? And you could make arguments for lots of different ones for different reasons, right. But I think, to go mainstream, this signals to those people in the Midwest as an example. Oh, I guess this isn't just for wealthy, you know, granola eating people in California. This is a work truck, this is, you know, this is actually acceptable. And the second part of it, obviously, which you know, we'll talk a bit about more later, I'm sure your the bi directional charging capability is sort of an eye opener. And then the last thing I would say is just sort of gas prices, right. And so, gas prices, again, which I know we'll talk about some more, may make people more aware of alternatives to the internal combustion engine. And so EVs are kind of having their moment right now, because of that.
Dan Seguin 21:41
Okay. Now, time to leave it all on the floor. What is something you want the average combustion engine car owner to know about EVs, that maybe they don't already know, Loren gloves off, go for it.
Loren McDonald 21:59
Really, I think pretty, pretty simple that charging your electric vehicle is more like having to charge a smartphone than how you feel your gas car. Right. And just to expand briefly on that is, you know, get most consumers there, their perception is that refueling and recharging an EV is the same as going to a centralized gas station and stuff. And it's not till you own one, and experience it and drive it a lot that you realize, no, it's actually more like a smartphone where you know, you, you know, put it in your bed stand and plug it in, you wake up in the morning, and it's recharged or whatever. And that's the same thing with your EV. Assuming you have access to home charging, right? Go into the garage plugin, wake up and it's charged. And, you know, the, the, the nuance to that is, is that and I've got this amazing chart that I that I use in presentations that shows like a fuel gauge, for you know, like most consumers, when they drive a gas car, what do they do, they drive the car down to empty quarter of a tank, below empty, whatever they're comfortable with. And then they pull into a gas station and fill it up to fall. And you know, this, Dan, that's not how you refuel an electric vehicle, you replenish what you use, right? So, if you drive 30 miles today, you plug in and you replenish that third, and maybe actually even don't, maybe you wait a couple of days, right? You drive it down, and then you do it right, it sort of depends on your comfort zone. The only time through refueling experience for an EV is analogous to a gas car is when you go on those road trips, right? And those either so you know, weekend one or a long road trip, and then you do have to do that centralized thing. But otherwise, I think this is the single biggest educational hurdle that we have because it's not something you can explain to people. They actually have to like the experience to then the light bulb goes, Oh, yeah, this is like my smartphone.
Dan Seguin 24:12
And there you have it. Wise words from our guest, Loren McDonnell, the EV evangelists. Sometimes changing our mindset can help make you see things in a new light. And that's our show for today. If you like what you heard, feel free to revisit the full episodes featuring our renowned EV experts. We'll include links in the show notes so you can find these episodes and guests you're most interested in. And of course, don't forget to subscribe. Again. Thank you for joining me today as this sector and topic continues to evolve and grow. I for one, as a longtime EV owner, I am excited to see what the near future holds for Canada and for consumers. Until next time, thank you for listening to thinkenergy podcast. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant renewable resource, providing 60 per cent of our electricity. But here’s the big question: as Canada looks to an emissions-free future, how can waterpower, one of the oldest power sources on the planet, help us get there? And what do we need to consider? To learn more about our hydroelectric future, we sat down with Gilbert Bennett, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada. Tune in.
Related links
Gilbert Bennett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gilbert-bennett-86166529/
WaterPower Canada: https://waterpowercanada.ca/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video on YouTube
Follow along on Instagram
Stay in the know on Facebook
Keep up with the posts on X (Formerly Twitter)
---
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So, join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back. Here's a fun fact. Canada's electricity sector is one of the cleanest in the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. Now today, we're going to focus on one of the oldest power sources on the planet. Hydropower generates power when flowing water spins a wheel or turbine. It was used by farmers as far back as ancient Greece for mechanical tasks like grinding grain. Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station that still is in operation today was commissioned right here in Canada's nation's capital in 1891. Generating Station Number 2 is located on Victoria Island in the heart of downtown Ottawa is a stone's throw away from Parliament Hill. It's been providing clean, renewable electricity for more than 130 years. While hydroelectricity first powered our great city and country, it was fossil fuels that quickly became the dominant energy source during the Industrial Age of the 20th century, until nuclear power arrived on the scene in the early 1960s. Now, because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that our water power is our most abundant renewable resource, providing 60% of our country's total electricity. That means six out of every 10 homes in Canada are powered by water. This makes Canada the third largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world, after China and Brazil. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gasses that cause climate change, we must continue to increase the amount of zero emissions electricity we produce and strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels in other sectors. So here is today's big question. Can one of the world's oldest renewable power sources play a major role in Canada's Net Zero future? So, joining us today on the podcast is Gilbert Bennett. He is the president and CEO of WaterPower Canada, founded in 1998. WaterPower Canada is the national nonprofit trade association dedicated to representing the water power industry. Gilbert, welcome to the show.
Gilbert Bennett 03:21
Good morning, Daniel. Great to be here.
Dan Seguin 03:23
Now, you've joined WaterPower Canada at a very interesting time where there's a lot of national and international conversations about developments in hydroelectricity, as countries strive to meet their net zero targets. What is your vision on how water power Canada can participate in Canada's energy transformation and decarbonization?
Gilbert Bennett 03:49
So, we at WaterPower Canada represent the Canadian hydro electric industry, so the owners and operators were the vast majority of the Canadian hydropower fleet. So all the major utilities are members of the association. And we also have our industry partners that design manufacturing constructs for the industry. So given the hydropower provided, over 60% of Canada's electricity supply is going to be the backbone of the electricity industry for decades to come. Our role is to make sure that industry, governments, and the federal government, in particular, understand the important role that we play in the electricity system, and why hydropower is a key advantage of building a renewable future for Canada. So we're going to be aware that we're the dominant renewable supply for the Canadian electricity system. We have important value that's provided in terms of reliability. And I guess the ability to integrate other renewables in the system. So, we're going to be here for decades. We're going to be playing a major role in that transformation and the decarbonization of our economy.
Dan Seguin 04:57
Now, what's the value proposition that hydroelectric power brings to a clean, affordable and NetZero future?
05:07
Right. So, most importantly, we have key attributes. And I sort of touched on that in our last question there, we're firm and reliable. So, think about hydropower, just firm generation, there's water in the reservoir, we're going to be producing power at the power plant. It's not a question of is the wind blowing, is the sun shining? It's long term, high capacity, firm generation. And when I think about high-capacity storage for hydropower, in larger, the larger hydro systems, we're talking about 1000s of megawatts of power generation, delivered for months on end with large reservoir storage. So that's an important attribute that contributes to the reliability of our Canadian electricity system. And secondly, is dispatchable. So, we can adjust output of the plant as necessary to meet needs as they change your day to day order in order to balance out the deliveries from other renewables. So, in the absence of a fossil fuel fleet, hydropower with those capabilities is really important for us to maintain reliability and deliveries on our electricity system.
Dan Seguin 06:18
Gilbert, some people still believe that investments in renewable energy translate to higher electricity costs. But I read on your website that provinces with the highest hydropower installed capacity have the lowest electricity costs, perhaps you can break down why that is and what you think the public should know about hydropower that they may not already know.
Gilbert Bennett 06:48
So, if we look at the provinces of Canada with the highest installed base hydropower, they have facilities that were built with large scale capacity and large-scale storage, and they were built in the 60s and 70s. And they still operate reliably today. So, we look back to sort of the major construction that happened in the Canadian hydropower sector. Several decades ago, those long-term reliable assets are now producing really low cost energy, a lot of financing has been addressed from those facilities, and they have low operating costs, the cost of maintaining those facilities is, is a lot lower than the cost of building new ones today. So those those legacy assets are really important contributors to the low rates, we see in the, what I'll call the hydro dependent jurisdictions.
Dan Seguin 07:37
Very insightful. Thanks, Gilbert. Now, I know water power, Canada has commissioned some research projects. Can you maybe talk about some of those, and what makes them important to your sector and your goals?
Gilbert Bennett 07:53
So those studies, and there were four of them that were completed through last year with important financial support from Natural Resources Canada, and fortunately, they address some important topics to discuss hydropower in general. So, the first one deals with this question that we just talked about, what's the role that hydropower facilities play in ensuring reliable service for customers. So now we're getting into some technical points, inertia load, following regulation, frequency and voltage control. So those are things that customers don't think about and don't have to worry about, because they're really important questions or system operators, the people who manage and operate electricity grids. So, it's important for policymakers who are drafting the rules through the electricity sector to understand that these capabilities are essential to delivering reliable service. And in the absence of fossil generation, delivering those capabilities to a large extent is going to fall to the hydro fleet. It's important to understand the services that are uniquely provided by hydro facilities, some of the variable renewables don't have these capabilities. And the services that are provided by the hydro fleet are going to be much more important in the future as we retire the fossil fuel fleet across Canada. So that's, that's the first one. The second study looked at the potential for pumped storage hydro in Canada. And that's a topic that we haven't talked about a lot. It's a mature technology that's used in many places in the world. But with our conventional hydropower fleet here in Canada, we haven't had to worry about too much, but it is becoming an issue as a way to store energy from variable renewables and make it available when needed factor projects under consideration in Ontario. Today, there are two major projects in Ontario, one led by OPG and Northland power, and the TC energy's project in Georgian Bay is another one that probably would be familiar to listeners in Ontario for sure. There are also projects in Alberta. They're looking at that technology. So potential for pump storage as a large-scale storage opportunity to firm up variable renewables. It's an important topic elsewhere in the world. And it's one that we thought would be useful to highlight attention here in Canada. Third study looks at the potential for updating our existing facilities to increase the output of those facilities. So, we've identified 1000s of megawatts of potential that can be realized by replacing the existing turbines and generators and existing plants. So, the point here is that we're using existing dams, reservoirs and structures, while updating the technology inside the plant. So that's a cost-effective way to increase the efficiency of the plant or to increase capacity on the grid. And then finally, the last report looks at the cost of energy from previous generation sources. And we introduced the point here that variable renewables are inexpensive energy sources, but there are additional costs that will be incurred in the electricity systems making them dispatchable and available. And those are, those are features that are built into hydro generation. So, we want to raise the point here that the grid services that I talked about a second ago, need to be factored in when we're comparing various generation sources. So these points are really important for policymakers to understand, well, they're drafting the rules for the industry, and ultimately, for the services that our customers are gonna be relying on. Lots and lots of detail there. And if anybody's interested in taking a look at those reports, are all posted on our website at waterpowercanada.ca.
Dan Seguin 11:28
Okay, I really like this next question here. What are some projects and innovations that you're seeing from your members that you feel may usher in a new era for waterpower?
Gilbert Bennett 11:42
I think we look back at our aspirational goal in Canada to be net zero by 2050. So, talk about that on a fairly regular basis. Various experts have said that we'll need to double our electricity supply to achieve that goal. So just think about that for a second 25 or 30 years, we're going to rebuild the industry that's taken 125 years to build the infrastructure Canada that we have today. So, you know, that's a daunting challenge. And I think it'd be the first sign of the scale of that effort is probably from Hydro Quebec, where they've indicated that they plan to spend somewhere between 155 and $185 billion dollars on their electricity system between now and 2035, in order to set the stage and Quebec to be net zero by 2050. That level of investment, that scale of development of their electricity system, I think is a huge one. And it's one that if we're going to achieve our or aspirational goal is going to be replicated in multiple jurisdictions when we look at significant investments required to set the stage to electrify our economy. So that in itself is a, you know, is a hugely important error for I see the electricity sector in general, feel comfortable saying that water power is going to be an important piece of that.
Dan Seguin 13:07
Now, if memory serves me right, your organization released a collection of success stories of partnerships between utilities, energy companies, indigenous businesses, and organizations affiliated with First Nations. Gilbert, what can you tell us about the path forward? And its intersection is clean energy and reconciliation?
Gilbert Bennett 13:34
Right. So that report, branding indigenous businesses is also on our website. And it's a collection of case studies from members from our member companies that provide concrete examples of how WaterPower Canada member companies are working with indigenous businesses, First Nations, both as partners and owners and developers of projects. So, I think in the context of reconciliation, it should be fairly clear that projects and activities that happen on traditional land should benefit people who you know, who own that land. And here we have some specific examples of how things can be done and are being done to benefit indigenous communities and businesses. So, it's the way we need to move forward with development. It's an opportunity to work together, it's an opportunity to jointly understand issues, opportunities, challenges with projects, and to really come to a common understanding of how to do business together, both between, you know, our member companies and indigenous communities, important step forward. And I think the way things are going to be done in the future.
Dan Seguin 14:43
Okay, moving on to some challenges. It seems that the International Energy Agency expects hydropower generation to increase 50% by 2040. Is the hydropower sector, like many, having difficulty attracting new talent? What are the ways your sector is working to entice youth to consider hydroelectricity to keep up with the growing demand?
Gilbert Bennett 15:14
So, this is a huge challenge for not just our industry, but the Canadian economy in general, we have a retiring workforce, as our population ages. And we're not replacing people across multiple sectors in our economy. Certainly, an issue in the trades for construction and operations. So, a concern in engineering is a concern in most professions, that we're not replacing our workforce. And for our industry, we have a couple of associations that are really focused on this question. So, shout out for electricity, Human Resources, Canada here, they are playing a key role in highlighting opportunities, and reasons why people who are entering the workforce, you know, should look at a career in our sector. It's a common theme from trade unions to say, look, you know, here are these unionized positions, and the trades and the construction trades. And then the operating trades are high paying jobs, they have great working conditions. And they're a great way to build people's career. And it's probably something that we haven't talked about for a long time. These are ways to highlight opportunities in the industry, apprentice programs on projects are another way to highlight opportunities to get people entering the workforce. And then finally, you can link back to our discussion on indigenous communities where training, education, employment opportunities associated with projects are available for residents in nearby communities. But that's as most project developers today would look at that as a key way to both build workforce, and to build economic capability in the, in the communities where they're doing work. It's a big challenge. And we certainly have to, you know, find ways to get people into the trains to get things done. We're going to be talking about this one a lot.
Dan Seguin 17:04
Now, I'm curious to find out what makes our hydropower unique, isn't our production generation water rich reserves, or our cold climate that sets Canada's hydropower apart from other countries?
Gilbert Bennett 17:20
So, first of all, we look at the resource that we have, we have 7% of the world's renewable freshwater. So, 7% of the water that falls on the face of the planet, lands in Canada, and we have 5% of the world's population. So those were important to have the raw resources in the first place. So that certainly we have that in spades, but also the large landmass, we have favorable topography for hydropower sites, so the right to the terrain and most of Canada is favorable to hydropower development. We're a large country with a small population, but lots of water. So, we have a great resource. And I think that that's probably the key reason why we've, you know, got to where we are.
Dan Seguin 18:08
Okay, that's good, Gilbert. Now, do you expect hydropower to remain Canada's largest source of reliable, renewable power for the foreseeable future? What is something you want the government to know right now about how investing in hydroelectricity can help it achieve its netzero goals?
Gilbert Bennett 18:32
Okay, so the first, the first most important point is that the attributes of your hydropower fleet, the technical capabilities are really important in continuing to ensure that electricity, services for customers are reliable, cost effective and renewable. Now, our future is going to be all in with every non emitting and renewable option. So hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen, all of these alternatives to fossil fuels, and others are going to be critical for us to achieve our net zero, or near zero aspiration. Hydro today is the backbone of our fleet. It has important services, and it's important to glue the rest of the system together. So that's probably the most important point and then we would say that development of hydropower facilities are long term investments, they have long term development cycles. So we need to be able to find ways to move forward with project approvals with upgrades with expansions you know that deliver low cost service to customers. Now we also recommend with note that our generator members are either major utilities or their producers themselves. So, getting the maximum value from our assets is going to be really important as well and the industry is going to continue to look at existing assets to see how we can get more out of those. So that may be increasing the capacity of sites using, you know, improving efficiency, being strategic about where you know where projects get built. And then finally understanding where hydro fits compared to other technologies. And there's a given that there will be opportunities for those other technologies to play important roles in this electricity system as well. When we look at sort of doubling the electricity system, there's going to be a lot of investment all around. And I think what we would say is that, you know, back to the fundamental point, hydropower is the backbone of the generating fleet in Canada. And it provides, you know, key services that are going to be needed now, well into the future.
Dan Seguin 20:35
Finally, Gilbert, we always end our interviews with some rapid-fire questions. We've got some new ones for you. Are you ready?
Gilbert Bennett 20:44
Let's go. Okay.
Dan Seguin 20:46
What are you reading right now?
Gilbert Bennett 20:48
Nothing on the bookshelf today. So, I will say the last binge read I had was on vacation last summer, and it would have been one of Tom Clancy novels.
Dan Seguin 20:57
Okay, good. Now, Gilbert, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Gilbert Bennett 21:04
I don't. We don't have one. This one is a standing family joke. The name of the boat would be Ylime, which is my daughter Emily's name spelled backwards. That's a standing joke for a while with the family.
Dan Seguin 21:18
Here's another question, Gilbert. Who is someone that you truly admire?
Gilbert Bennett 21:23
All right, so let's look back in history to someone who dealt with challenges on a similar scale to what we're talking about now. And I think I'd have to look to maybe someone like General Leslie Groves, from the Manhattan Project. So those of you have seen Oppenheimer would have a pretty clear handle about how he got things moving to that project.
Dan Seguin 21:46
Okay, moving on here. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Gilbert Bennett 21:52
Oh wow. Okay, so I'm an electrical engineer. So, some real things are more like magic to a lot of people. I would say for me, 15 years of effort of the Muskrat Falls project in Labrador, close to the breaker to put the first unit online, looks like magic after all that effort.
Dan Seguin 22:11
What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Gilbert Bennett 22:18
Oh, well, I would say switching from a large office setting to a virtual team. And you know, of course, during my time on the Muskrat Project, we had, you know, 300 people on our team, and you're interacting with them on a daily basis. And now you go to a virtual team, and you're doing pretty well, everything like we're doing here today remotely. That was a major adjustment for me.
Dan Seguin 22:40
Okay. Now, we've all been watching a little more TV, a little more Netflix. What is your favorite show? Or series?
Gilbert Bennett 22:49
Oh, I just got through the last season of Slow Horses on Apple TV. So Misfits, that and MI five, who find a way to get things done. It was a pretty, pretty enjoyable series for me.
Dan Seguin 23:03
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Gilbert Bennett 23:08
Oh, wow. I would say in a nutshell, everything. Sort of the scope, the scale, the challenges, the opportunities that we've talked about, I think are all are all exciting, and helping to, you know, find a way to retool our, our entire society so that it runs on renewables, I think is a huge is a huge challenge. And it was definitely pretty exciting.
Dan Seguin 23:30
Well, Gilbert, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the think energy podcast. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect?
Gilbert Bennett 23:42
Oh, two ways. Visit our website waterpowercanada.ca. And we're on LinkedIn as well. So follow the association. And keep up with what's going on in the industry.
Dan Seguin 23:54
Again, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.,
Gilbert Bennett 23:59
Oh this was great. It was great to be with you Daniel. Thanks so much.
Dan Seguin 24:06
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Ice storms, blizzards, and high winds can all lead to extended power outages, turning bad weather into a crisis for those affected. And Canada has had several intense cold weather events in recent years. In part 2 of mitigating the impacts of winter, experts Guy Lepage, Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Julie Lupinacci, Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, and Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions, share how to prepare for a winter disaster.
Related links
● Guy Lepage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289
● Julie Lupinaccii on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci
● Jim Pegg on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jim-pegg-4b588b17
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
● Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/
● Envair Energy Solutions: https://envari.com/
● Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness
● Canadian Red Cross emergency preparedness and recovery: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada/be-ready-emergency-preparedness-and-recovery/
● Envari electric vehicles and infrastructure: https://envari.com/electric-vehicle-infrastructure/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: YouTube
Follow along on Instagram
Stay in the know on Facebook
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
----
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Welcome back, everyone. And thank you for joining us for part two of our winter highlight reel, where we revisit clips from previous interviews discussing the unique impact our Canadian winters have on our energy sector. Although Canadians are accustomed to cold and snowy winters, Recent years have brought more intense weather events into the mix. From heavy snowfall to ice storms to bone chilling subzero temperatures, these factors are driving the need for emergency preparedness and protocols to ensure public safety. Whether you're snugged at home or navigating the elements during your commute, utility companies like hydro Ottawa are pushing for increased reliability of their system. The goal is to keep your power on and keep you informed before, during and after outages. This commitment also extends to supporting the growing presence of electric vehicles on the road, emphasizing reliability in electric transportation. In our first clip, I spoke to Guy Lepage, a volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross disaster management, he sheds light on how the Red Cross provides support for those who may face devastating experiences. Let's dive into this conversation. Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters. I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters. What is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?
Guy Lepage 02:17
House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times people leave stuff on the stove and it spreads. Fire starts to spread, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assess the family to make sure they have lodging, they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And we're an emergency service, so after three days, people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any kind of disaster and and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building gets evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter in a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.
Dan Seguin 04:29
Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes?
Guy Lepage 04:42
I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you leave something unattended and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where indeed, mom and dad and three kids living in an apartment, and one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out, get out. So we responded, they went to a friend's location, so we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has to sit on her face because of the fire. And she starts crying and teardrops are rolling down through her soot stained cheeks and I'll always remember that image, because she was crying because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches, cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis, we will of course, but if you can prevent it, that's even better.
Dan Seguin 06:21
Okay. so next up, speaking on the topic of extreme weather, and preparing for emergencies. I have a clip from my interview on what electricity customers want with Julie Lupinacci, Hydro Ottawa's Chief Customer Officer. Julie speaks to how Hydro Ottawa is actively working on leveraging advanced technologies in order to improve communications during crisis situations. When customers are out of power, she also shares some key things to focus on when preparing an emergency kit for your family. Here's what Julie had to say. We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major, major weather events these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?
Julie Lupinacci 07:19
Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the '98 ice storm and I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would say is Hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our Chief Electricity Distribution Officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology. So that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple minutes of the storm hitting but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out and we are looking to be working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out so similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers, either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts. that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll, you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid, and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system, again, through through whether it's an SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes, so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently, right. And if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out, make sure phones are charged, make sure that you've got blankets, make sure you know where your flashlights and your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydroottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted sorry, Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program, this was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on either to their house or to the community.
Dan Seguin 11:42
Now tell me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies and outages?
Julie Lupinacci 11:51
Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do. One, I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But where are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place. But you know where these flashlights are right. I know if anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't list them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you and your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like hydro is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for Worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power's out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it.
Dan Seguin 13:59
NExt up, I have Jim Pegg, Director of Infrastructure Products and Services at Envari Energy Solutions. In my interview with Jim he shared all about electric vehicles, including the benefits and challenges of ownership in Canada. In this upcoming clip, he shares some strategies around optimizing electric vehicle usage in winter. Being an EV owner myself, I can confirm that our cold Canadian winters pose certain challenges when it comes to battery life. Is this something to be aware of? And how can organizations mitigate any issues?
Jim Pegg 14:41
So I would say yes, it is true that the cold weather has an impact on batteries, you know, depending on where you are on the globe, there's different different weather patterns and so on, but cold weather certainly has an impact on batteries and the range needed of those batteries. Currently, there are a few ways to tackle this. One is something called pre-conditioning, meaning having your vehicle plugged in while it's warming up in the morning, and you can actually automate that to take place at a certain time. And it can help maintain the battery's range for that day. So that can have a really big impact. The other factor, you know, is what we talked about a little bit earlier, it was a driver training, you know, simple things like understanding the impact of few degrees of heat can have or how people actually drive smooth versus hard accelerations, all those things have an impact on the range you get out of your battery. The good news is with you know, with upfront planning, these issues can be managed to a point where they're not issues at all, you know, and if, if more public chargers come along each year, the certainty around getting from point A to B, to C, D, E, F, and G will get stronger and stronger. There's also a lot of work going into battery technology itself that will help with cold climates as well as the speed at which batteries can be recharged without causing, you know, increased battery degradation. The risk right now is if you know fleets of vehicles are out there and they're constantly having to use fast chargers and higher power chargers on their vehicles on the smaller size fleets that can have a damaging impact on your battery life. But there's a lot of technology going into working on that. But again, with good planning and understanding of a fleet's needs, there are certainly ways to plan around those issues.
Dan Seguin 16:26
Now, I may be biased but as a proud owner of an EV, who has been driving in all sorts of wintry conditions, I can say that the benefits of EV driving far outweigh the challenges around battery usage in the cold. So if you're considering purchasing an EV on your own, I can tell you that you won't regret it. And as Jim said, the technology is always improving. Finally, folks, thank you for joining me today for part two of our winter highlight reel. And thank you for another incredible year! Oh, and before I forget, I'd love to hear from you, our listeners. If you have any feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to [email protected]. I'd love to hear from you. I can't wait to continue this journey with you, so we'll be back in two weeks. On Tuesday, January 2, to kickoff 2024 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. And, as always, there will be some surprises. Don't forget to subscribe to stay in the loop. Until next time, folks. Happy holidays. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Winter isn’t always a wonderland. In Canada, the season brings a flurry of unique challenges, heightened in recent years by extreme weather events. This episode, the first of two parts to close out the year, revisits thinkenergy’s coolest clips sharing energy considerations and solutions to help mitigate the impacts of winter on our homes, infrastructure, and safety. Hear from experts Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, and Nick Levac, FLM at Hydro One.
Related links
Shawn Carr on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
Nick Levac on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/
Hydro Ottawa:
https://hydroottawa.com/en
Why everyone’s talking about heat pumps: https://hydroottawa.com/en/blog/why-everyones-talking-about-heat-pumps
Warming up to cold climate heat pumps: https://envari.com/stories/community-centre/
Hydro Ottawa Tree Trimming:
https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/community-safety/tree-trimming
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
-
Are you prepared for a prolonged power outage? Extreme weather is more common due to climate change. Canada’s experienced disastrous tornadoes, wildfires, and wind and ice storms over the past few years alone, leading to massive disruption to utilities and public safety. Be prepared, stay informed. Dive into the urgent discussion on emergency preparedness in episode 125 of thinkenergy, featuring insights from Hydro Ottawa’s CEO, Bryce Conrad, and Canadian Red Cross Disaster Management Volunteer, Guy Lepage.
Related links
Bryce Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/
Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety
Hydro Ottawa emergency preparedness: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/emergency-preparedness
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
----
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. We're going to take a different direction for today's show. For the first time, I don't have a guest lined up. Instead, on today's show, I'm going to talk about a topic that is close to my heart as a communicator in the electricity sector. And it's something that affects us all. prolonged power outages caused by major weather events. More specifically, I want to talk about what each of us can do to take personal responsibility during a crisis, and how we can all take steps to plan for prolonged outages due to an ice storm, a tornado, heat waves or major wind storms. Now, most of the time, power outages are over shortly after they begin. But with a major storm outages can last much longer. We've all experienced being without power for an extended period of time. And we know that extreme weather events have become more frequent and intense due to climate change. And wow, Canada has certainly experienced his share of national disasters recently, something that we all felt for the first time was the effect of forest fires this past summer. According to the Canadian interagency Forest Fire Center, there were approximately 6623 fires recorded across Canada in 2023, burning a total of 18 million hectares. These fires wiped out entire forest communities, and all infrastructure that supports those that live in these areas including their electricity. Here in Ottawa, we only experienced poor air quality, unlike anything I have ever seen in my lifetime living in the nation's capital. Also in Ottawa this year, there was an Easter ice storm in April, tornadoes that touched down in the south end of the city in the summer, and a number of lightning strikes in June, July and August that broke records and caused a number of outages in the region. It reminded me of a conversation I had with my boss, Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa, back in February 2022. At that time, I asked him how concerned he was with climate change. Listen to his response. You'll think he just said this yesterday. Here's what he had to say then.
Bryce Conrad 03:03
So let's just state categorically that climate change is real. You know, as I sit here today, it's minus 27,000 degrees outside. People go "oh global warming, why is it so damn cold? And of course, you just want to smack people that say things like that. But God's honest truth is climate change is not about the day to day weather, it's about weather patterns. It's about how, you know, in the past, we've had wind storms and ice storms, we've had eight tornadoes, including one in downtown Nepean. You know, we've had a one in 100 year flood, followed by a one in 1000 year flood. We've had heat waves that have stretched and taxed our system. And all of this is just like, quite frankly, within the past five years. So that's what climate change means. It means unpredictable, changing, dramatically changing weather patterns. And if you run a utility, like I do, or like we do, you don't like that. You know, our infrastructure is built to withstand X. It's not well not built to withstand x plus 30%, or x plus 50%. So, you know, when a wind storm comes through, the infrastructure is ready to sustain winds up to 90 miles an hour or something like that. Well, you know, we all saw what happened when tornadoes came through, you know, 130 miles or 160 miles an hour, right? Those poles snapped like twigs. That's what climate change means. So, you know, it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying. And, you know, it's something that we have to start to build into our plans as to how we build better in the future. Sure, so are we building our infrastructure to withstand 90 mile an hour winds? Are we building them to withstand 150 mile an hour winds? While there's a cost difference to that, obviously, but the answer is, yeah, we've got to do a better job of building stronger, more resilient infrastructure. If you're building you know, if you saw during the floods, the Chaudiere Facility, which is our new generating asset down at Chaudiere Falls. You know, you were seeing for the first time in history, all 50 of the gates of the ring dam were open. And there was more, I think it was two Olympic swimming pools were passing through the gates every second. The waterfall, the water, the speed in the waterfall was faster than the Niagara Falls. Like I mean, these are things that shouldn't be happening in downtown Ottawa, but have happened three times since I've been here, and that's 10 years. So if anyone wants to have a debate about whether or not climate change is real, call me up. Let's have that conversation. Because it's very real, and it's going to dramatically impact our future. In terms of the energy transition, I think I talked a bit about it. But you know, when we bottle out, and look at what our future looks like, 50 years from now, our infrastructure looks fundamentally different than it does today. It's in fundamentally different places than it is today. You know, we're going to rely upon artificial intelligence, machine learning. You know, each and every one of those, like, everything will be censored up. So, you know, the idea is that, as opposed to us rolling a track to fix something that's broken or down, we can sort of simply reroute it from the control center. So yes, we still have to get out there and fix what's broken. But for you, the customer of Hydro Ottawa, you actually won't notice the impact because the power will have switched over to another source instantaneously. That's the goal.
Dan Seguin 07:09
Some powerful words from Bryce Conrad, President, CEO of Hydro Ottawa, about climate change, and its effects on the electricity grid. I found his comments about how the advancement of artificial intelligence could result in a self healing grid. And the customer wouldn't even know that there was an outage because the system would be smart enough to know to reroute the power from another source. Sounds futuristic indeed, but something worthy to work towards. Since this is likely a couple of decades off, I want to spend a little bit of time sharing how utilities tackled power outages and restoration today. It's important to understand how it all works. You may be surprised to learn that utilities observe and monitor weather conditions, staying on top of changing weather patterns, so they can alert customers about possible outages in advance. Weather warnings are issued and Hydro Ottawa crews are put on standby to respond to emergencies. During the Ottawa ice storm back in April 2023. More than 225 internal and external field resources were called up to repair damage across the city of Ottawa. This was the second highest use of resources in hydraulic was historic, and it proves the point that utilities are taking these weather events seriously. To provide some perspective, I think it helps understand how utilities assess and restore power after a storm. It's important for us to know this so we can manage our expectations. In today's world we want it all now on demand. It's good to know what happens behind the scenes and the rationale that determines why some customers get restored before others. After a major storm causes widespread outages. The first job of the utility is to investigate the extent of the damage and determine the resources required to restore the power. Here's a general breakdown of how many utilities prioritize restoration after they've performed an assessment of the damage. Priority One: respond to public safety issues and emergencies. Priority two: fix critical electrical system infrastructure like substations and main power lines. Priority three: restore power to critical infrastructure and emergency services like hospitals, airports, water and sewage treatment plants. Priority four: repair power lines that will restore power to the largest number of customers. Priority five: we store smaller clusters of neighborhoods. And finally, priority six: respond to individual homes and businesses that may have sustained damage to their own electrical equipment. Public and personal safety are top of mind for restoration crews who must also deal with the aftermath of any storm, including falling trees, branches, windy conditions, heavy fog, thunder, lightning, and icy roads, all of which make restoring power difficult. And while restoring power is their main purpose, it's important that these brave women and men do not put their lives at risk. conditions have to be safe for them to work. So now, let's get to the part where we find out what we can do as individuals before, during and after a major storm that has caused widespread damage and a power outage. To kick off this section, I'm going to first play a clip from an interview I did earlier this year with Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Guy has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada, and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. I asked Guy during our conversation how Canadians can better prepare for emergencies in general, and especially during prolonged outages, being self-sufficient for three days is still the golden rule. Here's what he had to say.
Guy Lepage 11:37
Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan to sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours (three days) from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire whatever the situation. Can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bathe, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water and we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and two liters. To wash and bathe. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener. Have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio so you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight. There was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, You know last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition. I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half. What am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication. Enough pet food and enough water enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.
Dan Seguin 14:17
That was Guy Lepgage, disaster management volunteer with Canadian Red Cross, talking about his experience as a person who has had his boots on the ground during numerous disasters here in Canada and abroad. He mentioned something very interesting, and I'm going to leave it with you today. As probably the most important takeaway from this show, come up with a three day plan. A great place to start and I'm a little biased here is to go to hydro ottawa.com and visit the emergency preparedness section. There. You will find resources and information about what to consider when building that plan. I hope this episode has helped you consider having those necessary conversations around emergency preparedness. I know this is a departure from our usual podcast programming, but it's an important topic as winter weather approaches. Now, I hope you found this episode worthwhile and informative. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
The renewable revolution is here. Scientists, entrepreneurs, and policymakers—including Indigenous and industry leaders—are accelerating the transition to clean energy. But does Canada unanimously agree on the path to a more sustainable future? Philippe Dunsky, founder of Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors, joins thinkenergy to discuss. From climate counsels and regional challenges to greener business practices and how to positively impact the clean energy and climate sectors. Listen to Episode 124 today.
Related links
Philippe Dunsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philippedunsky/
Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors: https://www.dunsky.com/
Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dunsky-energy-climate-advisors/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod----
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Right now, there are scientists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, indigenous and industry leaders, helping to shape the direction that Canada will take to accelerate a transition to clean energy. Everywhere you look, whether it's academia, municipal, provincial, or federal governments, there's another council or committee being formed to address the most pressing issues of our time, climate change, from transitioning to sustainable energy sources, electrifying transportation, and improving energy efficiency to protecting our natural environment and reducing carbon emissions. One thing is for certain our country is embracing the renewable revolution, like never before. But those with seats at the decision table know that it must be done responsibly, and affordable. As we know, every region of Canada is unique and presents its own set of challenges and opportunities when it comes to tackling climate change, and ways to implement clean energy. So here is today's big question. How did we get such a vast and diverse country like Canada to agree on a pathway forward to a cleaner, greener and more sustainable energy future? Joining us today is Philippe Dunsky of Dunsky Energy and Climate Advisors, a consultancy firm that Philippe founded. It supports government, utilities, corporations across North America to accelerate their transition to clean energy. Phillippe, is the co chair of Canada's new Canada electricity Advisory Council, the co chair of efficiency Canada, and the director of the greater Montreal Climate Fund. He also previously chaired the Quebec government electrification Working Group. Welcome to the show, Philippe. Let's start by asking you this. Having just gone over some of your accomplishments, where does this passion for clean energy and climate come from? Where did it start?
Philippe Dunsky 02:44
So, so great to be here. By the way, thank you so much for having me. It started, I guess, I guess very early on. I'm Jewish background and grew up with, you know, endless stories about the Holocaust. And somehow that kind of morphed into just a general interest for world affairs and for big challenges, big societal challenges. And then as I was growing up, those became really focused on environmental issues. So that was the genesis. I became very, very interested in environmental issues. And then through that, and climate change in particular, as probably the greatest challenge of my generation, and for my generation. And then, I guess the other thing is, I've come to discover that I'm a pretty analytical guy. So I'm not a no great protester, I'm not a great to great movement leader, I tend to see a lot of gray, not so much black and white. And so that's how I ended up deciding to get involved in these issues. But, you know, in my own way through more of an analytical lens,
Dan Seguin 03:55
Okay, you've served and are serving on numerous councils, committees and boards. Can you tell us what has been the biggest takeaway you've learned through each collaboration? And how has it changed you?
Philippe Dunsky 04:11
Yeah, because each one does change you and changes your perspectives. Because ultimately, the biggest takeaway is that no matter how much I think I know this stuff and know this stuff. Well, and I've been working on energy issues for over 30 years now. And so, you know, I always end up thinking that I know the answer. What we discover is that, you know, there's not a single answer, there are many perspectives. And if you can combine knowledge with multiple perspectives, then you can come up with something that's hopefully going to be closer to that, you know, to that truth, or whatever you want to call it. My big learning is that every time you go into something like this, you go in with an open mind and an open heart. And if you do that, and you're listening to others perspectives, then you're bound to land on something that's a hell of a lot smarter. And then what you initially thought coming into it?
Dan Seguin 05:02
Okay, cool. Now, you were appointed chair for a recently formed Canada electricity Advisory Council. Can you tell our listeners who's on it? What is the mandate? And just how big of an undertaking is this?
Philippe Dunsky 05:19
Sure, I can start with the last question, by the way, that the undertaking, it's a really big issue, it's a really big challenge. On the other hand, the undertaking itself is time limited, it's a 12 month thing. So I'm a pumpkin and I turned into a pumpkin in May. It's been five months now. So I got another seven to go. From that perspective, that's the timing that we're looking at. Okay, Council itself is a group of 18 Canadians from across the country, every single, every single province, no exception. It's, it's extraordinary mix of individuals with an extraordinary mix of experience and perspective. So I'd say roughly half of council members are either current or former utility executives. The other half is a bit more of an eclectic mix of former regulators, we have people involved in the power production side of things, we have first nations leaders, so indigenous leaders, and a couple of others with different perspectives to bring to the table. But the really important thing here, I think, is that you're looking at the leadership level from every single province across the country. And that makes for really, really enlightening and challenging conversations as well. And then I guess you asked about the purpose or the mandate of the council. So I'll put it at a very, very fundamental level as a country, we're trying to largely decarbonize electricity by sometime in the middle of the 2030s. And we're looking to grow electricity, very substantially to decarbonize the rest of the economy. By 2050. That's that dual set of goals is at the heart of our mandate. And our mandate is to figure out what the feds can and must do. And at the same time, what can and must be done by others in the country, to help make this an easier journey, a more affordable journey. And ultimately, a more successful journey on the way there.
Dan Seguin 07:22
Okay, great segue here. Now, with respect to Canada's goal to achieve a 100%, Net Zero electricity system by 2035, you stated, "Is it better to optimize than maximize? Can you maybe break that down for us? And can you give us some examples?
Philippe Dunsky 07:41
Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, what I mean by that is, if all we do is say we want to decarbonize, there are many, many paths to do that. And, you know, we can say, hey, we're gonna, we're just gonna build, build, build, build, build until there's no tomorrow. And we could probably get there, doing nothing but that, but we'll get there in a less affordable way, than if we really think through the intricacies of what needs to be done. Yes, on adding, also on subtracting, so actually becoming more efficient in the way we use energy, relying more on consumers' involvement in the marketplace to achieve some of those goals. I just think there are quick ways to get to the goal, that ultimately, are going to cost too much and or create reliability issues. And if that happens, there'll be a backlash. And we'll never get to the goal. Alternatively, there, they're thoughtful ways that maybe aren't exactly the way we've always done things in the past, but that involve a lot more complexity and being able to wrestle with complexity and stuff. But ways that are focused on keeping this as affordable as possible, ultimately, for everyone across Canada, making sure that we do this in a way that's reliable, so we can always count on electricity being there. And in doing it in a way that actually involves some cooperation, as well.
Dan Seguin 09:04
So the electricity Council fulfills the minister's mandate to establish a pan Canadian grid Council. How viable is a pan Canadian electricity grid? Or are you seeing your movement in regional interconnections?
Philippe Dunsky 09:22
Yeah, so it definitely looks regional. Let me be really clear about that. And I know the original Originally, the name for the council was supposed to be the pan Canadian grid Council, as you pointed out, you'll also notice it, it was not it does not have that name. And there's a reason for that. And, and I will say, you know, and I've said this publicly many times, I don't believe that that's the right answer. We definitely need a lot more cooperation. at the regional level. There are a lot of opportunities for provinces to exchange more to continue exchanging with the US by the way, and this isn't, you know, we're not caught within, within our borders. So we have to do more on the cooperation side to keep costs down again, as low as possible to make this as smart and thoughtful and as achievable as possible. But that doesn't involve, you know, I love the old Coast to Coast Railway analogy. It's nice, it's working for railways. We're not talking about a single grid that goes coast to coast that's just not in the cards.
Dan Seguin 10:28
Now, for those who are not aware, can you tell us about your firm, its purpose, and what makes your approach unique, and particularly effective?
Philippe Dunsky 10:40
Sure, I mean, I'm thrilled talking about my firm. So these days, I spend so much time talking about look Council, which is kind of like my evenings and nighttime job, or evenings and weekend job. But my day job is running my firm, my firm is a group of over 50 professionals. Now, I think we're about 55 now that are dedicated exclusively to supporting clients in their clean energy transitions. And our clients typically are utilities and governments, increasingly large corporate clients as well, across Canada and across the US. So ultimately we work with utilities and governments that are in the throes of this energy transition, that are trying to figure it out. They're trying to find a way to help their customers navigate through it and a way for themselves to navigate through it, to define what the business case is for them and what their proper role is in it. And, and then we also have helped them in some of the nitty gritty. So, you know do you get customers involved on the demand side management side to reduce the pressure on right on the big build out? And all the capital is involved there? You know, what do we need to do to electrify vehicles, for example. So we've developed for some places, charging, charging infrastructure plans and charging infrastructure, business, business plans, strategies, investment plans, we work with, with our, with our customers in helping helping to decarbonize buildings through whether it's direct electrification, or hybrid heating systems without just the natural gas, depending on the on the need, we work with to decarbonize industrial loads, as well. And oftentimes, we're working with our utility customers to help them help their industrial customers decarbonize. So all of those things, and more and of course, planning out the whole transformation of the electricity system on the supply side, is a big part of it. That's a lot of what we do. It's hard to put in a single sentence. But the interesting thing, I guess, for us is, you know, ultimately, we're a consulting shop that is exclusively focused on the clean energy transition, we do nothing other than that. And, and I think that makes us pretty darn good at it.
Dan Seguin 13:02
That's perfect. Phillippe, your company emphasizes support in four focus areas, buildings, mobility, Industry and Energy. How were those identified? And can you maybe provide some specific projects or initiatives that have made a significant difference in the sector's?
Philippe Dunsky 13:25
Yeah, sure. And those sectors are, you know, 80 to 90%, of the energy equation, right. So they've grown over time, in a very deliberate manner, we started out working on the building side of the equation. So you know, what we call DSM or in Ontario, you call it CDM. Just to be different. But so we started out working on that. And then over time, we added mobility, especially electric mobility to our portfolio of expertise, and then built out from there, including on the generation and TND side, in terms of some examples. I mean, I'll be honest with you, we do well over 100 projects a year now. So there are a lot of different ones with a pretty large variety. But for example, I actually just came back from meeting with one of our clients, a large, large electric utility, where we've helped them to revamp their whole CDM approach. So that's, you know, from top to bottom, on the strategy side, on the regulatory side, and then on what the programs actually look like and how they operate and who they involve. In Ontario, we actually completed something I think is absolutely fascinating. I really enjoyed reading it. And that was a study of the potential of Drs. So distributed energy resources in Ontario to essentially keep the lights on, you know, we found 1000s of megawatts of exploitable resources there that you don't need to build because they're already there on the customer side of the meter. So stuff like that. We've worked with a lot of states in the US including California and New York designing, designing measure is to help their customers finance, the transition on their side, we've done a lot of work with, with utility executives helping them think through the strategy side of this, how am I going to actually the change management? How may I change my own utility to go from what it was in that steady state environment of the past 75 years to something that is a completely different beast in a very much more dynamic world. And it's focused on customer service and, and focused on transitioning the energy system as a whole. So, again, a pretty broad array of, of projects, but all of them. Absolutely. Absolutely exciting. And, and fascinating for me to be involved in and learn from.
Dan Seguin 15:45
Okay, now, wondering if you can speak to the importance of responsible and sustainable practices in the clean energy sector? And how has your company prioritized these principles in his work?
Philippe Dunsky 16:00
Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, look, the world right now is looking to the energy sector to lead and to transform itself. And as we do that, you know, leaders have to have to walk the talk. So, you know, I'm, I'm very proud that most, if not all of my clients are doing that right now within their own operations. And my firm does that in our operations. I try to do that, in my own life, I've been driving nav for seven years. Now, it's a great way for me to, to, to lead by example, but also, quite frankly, to get a head and on the experience curve, and actually understand from personal experience, all right, what are the challenges of of EV ownership and what needs to happen to make it a more seamless process? So you know, that's on the personal side, my company, we're actually a B Corp. So we went through a process to be certified by an independent organization that looks at all of our practices, from soup to nuts. And in our score, our B Corp score has increased. Year over year, I think we started out somewhere about 80 Something points, and now we're at 119. So you know, it's just a process of continuous improvement, just like, just like all of our clients have to have to do.
Dan Seguin 17:12
Okay, cool. Now, we all know, there's always more every country can be doing to combat climate change. But it's complex. In your opinion, Philippe, how does Canada compare? Is it on the right track, and focusing its effort on the right initiatives?
Philippe Dunsky 17:34
Yeah, I think it's, I think Canada is, is definitely moving in the right direction. I think there have been a lot of very important policies brought forward over the past several years that I think, bring us forward. Are they all done exactly the way I would like them to be done? No, if I had a magic wand, would I do it a little bit differently? Probably, but directionally there. Actually, I think we're heading there. You know, that being said, it's a long and winding road. Right. And it will be for the next decade. So there will be setbacks, and there will be things that we're doing that are suboptimal. And that's a little bit part of life. So my job and the role I've kind of given myself and my firm is to help make that path as straight and narrow as it reasonably can be. But you know, recognizing that this is a big learning process and, and mistakes you're gonna make for sure.
Dan Seguin 18:31
Now, Philippe, what are some of the biggest challenges or even threats to achieving a clean energy future in the timeline set out by scientists and the government? How is your company positioned to address them?
Philippe Dunsky 18:46
The biggest challenges and threats and I'll decouple those questions, okay. Because I think that, from my perspective, there are enormous challenges. There's first and foremost, a challenge of time, right? Because what we're talking about if we're talking about, you know, getting to net zero or something like it by 2050. I mean, that's a single generation. So we're talking about literally transforming the backbone of modern economies in a single generation. That is, number one, because frankly, that's never been done before. We've done it within sectors, right, we've done we went from, from horse drawn carriages, to to you know, horseless horseless carriages. And you know, we've, we dumped manufacturer, gas and went, went to natural gas, and we've done individual changes like that before. We've never done all at the same time dealing with that and getting it done. The single generation is a race. And so I do think that time is probably the number one challenge number two challenge. And, you know, if you really take a take a step back here and think about what we're talking about it, it's largely from an economic standpoint, we're largely moving from optics to capex, and there's we're largely it moving from a context where whether it's utilities, or business owners or homeowners, today, we pay our bills, you know, we're buying fossil fuels, right, we're buying and burning the energy that we consume. And so that's an OP X thing. Now, what we're talking about is increasingly stuff, that's just all capital, if you think of, you know, going from a gas plant to, let's say, a wind farm, a wind farm is, you know, it's once and done all of the entire cost for next 20 years, or 95% of it goes in the ground on day one, that's moving objects to capex, it's a really big change. If you're thinking of it from a homeowner perspective, we're talking about, let's say, take my example, you know, I bought an Eevee, my Eevee cost a lot more than that my previous gas car did. On the other hand, I'm paying a hell of a lot less to keep it up to optics to capex. So there's a real challenge around getting enough capital for all this to happen, whether it's for large utilities or down to an individual homeowner or car owner, I think that's a real big challenge that we have a couple more, maybe I'll, maybe I'll stop there. And then the things that my firm is doing to address those, I mean, look, like I said before, on the timeline side, everything we're trying to do is just minimize errors, we're not gonna eliminate them, but minimize errors. So that that line between here and there can be as straight as possible, and as least painful as possible on the capital side, that's a very specific thing. But we actually do a lot of work developing innovative financing mechanisms that utilities and governments can offer to homeowners and business owners, to allow them to have access to the capital that they need, as they tried to save money on the operation side. So those are, those are a couple of them, anyhow.
Dan Seguin 21:57
Okay, Philippe, what do you want Canadians to know about the country's transition to clean energy that they might not already know or be aware of?
Philippe Dunsky 22:10
You know, I think, I think everyone is aware that this energy transition is really big, and it's gonna be really hard. Maybe the one thing I'll add on to it is, there's a lot of benefit on the other side of this. So a lot of benefit, you know, what we're talking about ultimately, is, is transformative in nature, it's the sort of thing that's happened. I'm thinking outside of the energy sector, but just holistically, these kinds of changes have happened a few times in the past 100 years or so. And they tend to always be ultimately about moral leadership to start. And so I think we need to think of this, first and foremost from the perspective of moral leadership, which is something that is one of the reasons why Canada has such a great, strong brand around the world, because we punch above our weight on the great moral issues of the times. And that was true when we went to help out Europe during World War Two, and that was that true. And we went Mulrooney led the boycott of South Africa under apartheid. I mean, we've stood up when we've needed to, that has positioned this country internationally in a way that I don't I'm not sure that we fully measure. This is one of those times. And so being at the forefront of this, I think is extraordinarily important for our country as a whole. That being said, there's also some really economic benefits at the end of this and flip it on its head to there's some real economic costs and risks if we don't do this, and if we don't get it right, well, one thing, one thing I'll point to, I remember about 10 years ago, being in conversations with some provincial governments about the possibility of governments eventually taxing imports of our products, if they're too carbon intensive, and the idea sounded a bit crazy back then we're recording this today on October 30 29 days ago, on October 1, Europe's carbon border adjustment mechanism came into effect for the first time. And that is effectively going to tax import of products from everywhere around the world based on their carbon content. So if we get ahead of this fast, if we succeed in this, if we lower our carbon content of what we produce, we've got a hell of a nice economic advantage at the end of it.
Dan Seguin 24:33
Now, what advice would you give to an aspiring entrepreneur or those looking to make a positive impact in the clean energy and climate sectors?
Philippe Dunsky 24:48
You know, my advice is it's gonna sound a little wishy washy, but it's just figuring out what you're great at. You know, everyone's great at something different so I have a hard time. I'm providing really concrete advice to people I don't know personally, but everyone's got their magic. Everyone's got their special exceptionalism. I think it's important to know who you are, know what you really like to do know where you excel, and then whatever that is, to the extent that you can bring that to service of a greater cause, whether it's climate, whether it's portability, whatever it is, I think that's just a beautiful thing. So I encourage everyone to ultimately lead a purpose driven life and, and lean on their own strengths wherever they may be.
Dan Seguin 25:35
Okay, that's fair. Lastly, Philippe, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? Maybe. Okay, here we go. What are you reading right now?
Philippe Dunsky 25:51
Right now I'm actually sounding nerdy but I'm actually reading the CIA's 2030. Outlook, the latest 2030 outlook by the International Energy Agency. Absolutely fascinating read. If you're a nerd, like I am about energy.
Dan Seguin 26:04
Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Philippe Dunsky 26:10
My boat? My boat is a canoe. And what would I name my canoe? I'm not sure. Maybe I named it the Power Canoe. One of the reasons I love canoes, by the way, is they're probably the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B on water. So I'm a big fan of energy efficiency and, and a canoe is just that.
Dan Seguin 26:31
Who is someone that you truly admire Philippe?
Philippe Dunsky 26:35
Oh, goodness, I admire so many people, I couldn't come up with a single name there. You know, I work with a lot of leaders who dedicate their time and energy and excellence to, for public purposes. And every single one of those I'm in deep admiration of, I'll maybe add one other group, the folks I work with here in my firm. I've never known a group of people as dedicated and passionate and smart and curious. As they are, they do inspire me.
Dan Seguin 27:05
Good, good. Okay. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Philippe Dunsky 27:10
I'm from Quebec. So I'm a big fan of the circus, the modern circus, whether it's Cirque du Soleil, Cirque Éloize or les Sédois de la mayenne, they always amaze me and I'll always leave me spellbound.
Dan Seguin 27:24
Okay, next, as a result of the pandemic. Many of us are guilty of watching a lot of Netflix or other streaming platforms. What's your favorite movie or show?
Philippe Dunsky 27:38
You know what, I watched many different Netflix shows. These days. I'm just trying to think what's in bridgerton would be one of them right now. I'm really enjoying it.
Dan Seguin 27:52
Now, lastly, Philippe, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Philippe Dunsky 27:58
What's exciting is the same thing that's exhausting me. And that's the pace of change. It's just an extraordinary time right now. And I'll tell you what's really exciting me is that five years ago, because this is all I do. Right? I'm a one trick pony. So I think about this every day. Five years ago, I felt pretty alone in seeing and understanding the pace of change that we needed today. I feel like pretty much every leader I speak with is very clear eyed about how big this is, how fast it's gotta go, the challenge that it represents, and the near the you know, the knowledge that we need to get going and get going in a big way. So that excites me.
Dan Seguin 28:37
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Philippe Dunsky 28:44
Well, my organization's website is very simple. Dunsky.com. That's probably the easiest, easiest way. And if you want to connect with me, try [email protected] or my own email. The simplest email in the world is [email protected].
Dan Seguin 29:05
Well, Philippe, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Philippe Dunsky 29:15
It was fun. Thank you. I love your questions.
Dan Seguin 29:18
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests from previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
More and more we seek brands and products to help us conserve energy, save money, and make a positive impact on the planet. Every purchase is powerful. ENERGY STAR Canada’s Director of Program Support and Modernization, Burt James, joins episode 123 of thinkenergy to chat ways we can harness that power. From energy-efficient products to how ENERGY STAR programs help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, save electricity, and even improve the quality of our lives. Listen to the conversation today.
Related links
ENERGY STAR Canada: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/energy-star-canada/18953
ENERGY STAR Canada on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/energy-star-canada/
ENERGY STAR Canada on X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/ENERGYSTAR_CAN
ENERGY STAR Canada on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ENERGYSTARCanada/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
----
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that your wallet can help you reduce your energy footprint? Energy efficient products have become powerful tools and conservation and energy reduction efforts as people around the world become more aware of the impact their purchasing choices have on the environment. Consumers increasingly want electronic devices and appliances that use less energy to help save money on their energy bills, create a more sustainable future for people and the planet and are less wasteful and subsequently reduce greenhouse gas emissions. More and more people want to do business with brands that are just as concerned about these things as they are and they're using their wallet to send that message. More than ever, we have come to realize the power our wallets hold, we are dictating what is manufactured and produced because of how we think about and use energy. Over the last few decades and perhaps this last decade in particular, more of us are concerned about our own impact and contribution towards climate change. Enter ENERGY STAR Canada, a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and industry to make high efficiency products readily available and visible to Canadians. Providing simple, credible and unbiased information so consumers like us can make well informed decisions in the US alone ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 4 billion metric tons since 1992. And save the equivalent of 5 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity. You likely know and recognize and have Energy Star products in your home already. Its logo has become a trusted symbol, particularly in the appliances space, but there's a lot more that they do then you may not be aware of. So here's today's big question. In what ways can we harness the power of our wallets to make a positive difference for our planet and what other opportunities exist through programs like ENERGY STAR to lessen our impact on the environment, and even human health? Joining us today is Bert James. He's the Director of Product Support and modernization at ENERGY STAR from the Office of Energy Efficiency. Hey, Bert, welcome to the podcast.
Bert James 03:10
Pleasure to be here.
Dan Seguin 03:11
Now. Maybe you can start by telling us how the ENERGY STAR brand came to be and why it's become such a trusted symbol.
Bert James 03:21
Thanks for the question, Dan. The Energy Star program was actually started in the early 1990s by the US Environmental Protection Agency, but was first brought to Canada in 2001. In an international partnership and our can through the Office of Energy Efficiency are the stewards of the program in Canada. It's a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and program participants to make high efficiency products, homes and buildings available and visible to consumers and businesses. The product program is probably the one that people are most familiar with. And it was the first member of the ENERGY STAR candidate family. There are more than 80 types of products available and 1000s and 1000s of products, we have over 1000 program participants in the product space alone. Later on in 2005. We brought in the ENERGY STAR for new homes program in 2017. ENERGY STAR for industry in 2018, Energy Star certification became available for commercial and institutional buildings. And how did it become such a trusted symbol, I think through consistent performance more than anything else, it's recognized by a strong majority, like more than 80% of Canadians know what that little blue star means whenever they see it. It's government backed, which I think gives it some credibility or at least I'd like to think so there are transparent and really strict efficiency specifications as well which makes the program reliable and the products themselves are subject to post market verification in that, you know, it's not just about what you say your product will do, but it's actually about how your product performs. So there are proven savings. The market is quite saturated I think with Energy Star products. In terms of a price comparison, there's no difference in Most product categories and by purchasing one provided that it fits your design style, you know, you're going to save money if you purchase an energy star product.
Dan Seguin 05:08
That's very cool. Now, how does your rating system and our guide fit into this equation?
Bert James 05:15
So the inner guide rating system does kind of dovetail with ENERGY STAR, but they are separate pieces. In the world of residential homes. There is an EnerGuide rating system that compares individual homes from an energy performance perspective against other homes and then issues a rating ENERGY STAR for new homes, by contrast, is actually a reflection of the energy performance as it relates to the building code. In the world of appliances. Energy Star has a certain technical specification or and I guess, to elaborate a little further on that each product must have a certain energy performance, whereas EnerGuide is more just a measure of that energy performance. It's not a standard per se. It's just a reading.
Dan Seguin 05:59
Thanks for the clarification. Okay, but we're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today aren't multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Now, does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?
Bert James 06:28
Well, I like to see everything as an opportunity then. So I would definitely put this into that category. I think the biggest challenge, if I may, is to kind of work within this situation where we find ourselves where we need to build more homes. I think there is a shortage of housing on the market. When we choose to build homes, we would like them to be as efficient as possible. And that's where ENERGY STAR can come in. From a certification standpoint. Many people live in multifamily homes now, or multi unit residential buildings or condo buildings. And of course, we encourage them all to use Energy Star products within their homes. But more broadly for whole buildings. We do have an Energy Star certification program for multifamily high rises in Ontario. It's a certification program for new construction that recognizes buildings that are at least 15% more efficient than those built to the provincial energy code and meet some other program requirements. But as we focus a lot on housing supply in this country, it is sometimes hard to talk about efficiency whenever we just need to get homes built. And so we you know, we see it as a challenge in terms of keeping energy efficiency in the spotlight whenever these homes get built, and also an excellent opportunity to promote the work that we do here within OEE.
Dan Seguin 07:46
Okay, the ENERGY STAR is mostly known for residential homes and appliances. But you're also in the industrial and commercial space. What programs exist to help these sectors reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
Bert James 08:02
This is a question where my answer might be long, I'm going to try and keep it as concise as I can. So there are a number of initiatives in both the commercial and industrial space. And I'll start with the commercial space energy star that has a tool called Portfolio Manager, which is a benchmarking tool. It's been with us this is actually the 10th anniversary this year is the 10th anniversary of the use of portfolio manager. And what Portfolio Manager allows you to do is measure your buildings performance as compared to other buildings that are in a similar class, it spits out a score and that score allows you to compare how your building will perform overall, in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a building that has a higher score consumes less energy and is more efficient in terms of keeping the heat in and so through the use of a portfolio manager a building owner can actually evaluate how their building performs as they construct it. But also if they were to do some retrofits to see how much better the building actually performs itself in the world of commercial residential or condo buildings. Portfolio Manager is obviously another tool that people could use but we also do have this pilot program in Ontario that does recognize buildings that are more energy efficient. So in the world of industrial players ENERGY STAR has two components. There is an energy star challenge and then a certification process. The challenge for industrial facilities is to reduce their energy consumption by 10%. Within five years, if you achieve this goal, you receive ENERGY STAR recognition and you can display the ENERGY STAR challenge for industry logo while 10% might not seem like a big achievement over the course of five years, the amount of electricity that some of the these facilities consumed is really quite substantial and a 10% drop in energy use can lead to some significant changes to the bottom line for these facilities. From a certification perspective, Natural Resources Canada recognizes the most energy efficient Canadian facilities with ENERGY STAR for industry certification. So industrial facilities located in Canada can earn the certification and display the energy star symbol. And it is done through an energy performance indicator that allows you to benchmark your facility's performance against those across Canada and the United States, it generates a score and those with the highest scores are eligible for certification.
Dan Seguin 10:28
Okay, what makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings unique?
Bert James 10:34
So ENERGY STAR certified buildings are, as I mentioned, in the residential space, the multi unit buildings they perform at least 15% better than the standard as described in the provincial energy code and ENERGY STAR certified buildings are just they are of higher energy performance. And you can feel it whenever you're in some of these buildings. And you can definitely see it through the control systems that are in place to manage energy within them. There are really some fantastic innovations happening in the building space with respect to heat and energy recovery. And these all help to improve the energy performance and ultimately improve the score through Portfolio Manager and that's what sets them apart is that they are higher performing buildings. You know, here in Ottawa, there are a couple of buildings that have recently been announced as net zero buildings whenever they are finally going to be built. That is the highest standard that we are looking at right now. But overall, you know, cut and dried, the difference between the ENERGY STAR certified building and one that is not ENERGY STAR certified is its energy performance.
Dan Seguin 11:34
Burt, are you able to unpack for listeners, what is the process to being certified?
Bert James 11:41
To be eligible for Energy Star certification, a building must earn a certain score through the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager access to Portfolio Manager is free. And I want to be clear that it does not require an engineering degree in order to operate it, it is something that a building manager can come in and use if it receives a certain score of 75. That means that it's operating better than at least 75% of similar buildings nationwide. So the entire process is done within the portfolio manager tool. Once you register for an account, you benchmark your building by using metered energy data. It's asking, you know, building operators for the data that they already have, which can be entered into the tool manually, or in some cases that can actually be automatically uploaded into the tool. Once you obtain your score. If it is 75 or higher, then you can submit an online certification application, have it verified by a licensed professional and then submit it to Natural Resources Canada, and then the last step for us is just to review that application. And if it is certified, the building receives an ENERGY STAR deckle to display on the building and also gets listed on in NRcan's online registry.
Dan Seguin 12:50
Now I'm curious about your signature program, the Canada Greener Homes Grant. What can you tell us about it, and how retrofit factors into your work?
Bert James 13:02
So the Canada Greener Homes Grant was launched in 2021. And I think in government time, that still makes it a relatively new program. It is obviously a program to incentivize home energy retrofits in the residential space across Canada. You know, the program itself was designed to improve the energy performance of home so there is a focus on improving the building envelope and also some of the equipment that exists within the home. When I say building envelope, I don't just mean you know the walls I also mean the windows and doors. And as it relates to energy star to be eligible for one of the grants, consumers or homeowners must install ENERGY STAR certified products into those spaces. There's also opportunities to add insulation to swap out furnaces for heat pumps and there are other aspects. So the retrofitting of homes is a very important factor for us as we work towards, you know, a net zero economy by 2050. The building sector accounts for a significant percentage of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions primarily related to space and water heating and retrofitting those buildings is an essential component of how we get to net zero energy star certainly plays a role in in supporting homeowners by putting high performing products in and ultimately can help us down the road of consuming less energy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in cases where if you are heating with a natural gas furnace, having high efficiency Windows keeps that he didn't and you will burn less gas overall and reduce your emissions associated with it.
Dan Seguin 14:40
Bert, more and more municipalities and communities are looking for ways to reduce costs and greenhouse gas emissions. What is the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager and who is the target audience?
Bert James 14:55
So the Portfolio Manager is a free tool you know, it's run by the United States Ba, they are the ones that the custodians of the tool can have certainly modified the tool, you know, for our own context, the target audience for Portfolio Manager are building operators. And so they are the people who have access to the water consumption, the energy consumption, waste generation, all of those things come into the portfolio manager tool, and we, you know, we target our work towards, towards the building operators and the building managers to get their information into it, it is really quite something but we have more than 40% of all commercial space across Canada is already found in the portfolio manager tool, and that date that is increasing all the time. And we have some good news stories from provinces, municipalities who are actually mandating the use of the tool in order to demonstrate energy performance in their jurisdictions. So like I said, the tool itself is free, it is quite easy to use, and but it is targeted towards the people who actually have access to that information about how a building currently performs and how it operates.
Dan Seguin 16:07
That's great, Bert. Now how does the federal budgets focus on energy and decarbonisation, the economy affects your work?
Bert James 16:09
Well, it is my work in many ways. I mean, energy efficiency is a central component of how we get to net zero by 2050. I like to think that there are three pillars to this : decarbonisation, which is the actual, you know, elimination of fossil fuel build burning devices. There is electrification, which is the conversion of certain things to electricity from a fossil fuel device, but then there's also energy efficiency. And so the less energy that we can use in order to operate, you know, a building an industrial facility or a product to the easier it is to to electrify that, and ultimately here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, that's, that's our goal, we want people to use high performing devices, we have many success stories around this, you know, we the efficiency of a refrigerator built in 2023 is, you know, many multiples ahead of of a refrigerator built, you know, 25 or 30 years ago. Similarly, incandescent light bulbs are actually getting harder and harder to find, and at some point in time, they will likely be regulated out of existence. So you know, the energy is the lifeblood of our economy, how we use that energy and the efficiency with which we use that energy is, I think, going to be a major indicator of our success as we move towards a full decarbonisation of the economy and reducing our emissions from coast to coast.
Dan Seguin 17:47
Now has the main social driver to buy Energy STAR shifted from energy saving, to, let's say, planet saving?
Bert James 17:56
That's a very good question. And I would say, our focus is still on saving energy, all energy has a cost. And if we can reduce the amount of energy that we consume, then ultimately we are going to save some money along the way. In Canada, we have a very clean electricity generation grid. And so but there are certain jurisdictions where even within this country where we still burn fossil fuels in order to generate electricity, if we can consume less energy, we will burn less fossil fuels in those jurisdictions. But I would say that the focus for the Energy Star program remains on remaining within energy performance and saving money and through the savings of energy, ultimately, are we going to be saving the planet along the way, I'd like to think that we are contributing positively in that way. But for us here, the focus has always been on just increasing the efficiency of the products that we are responsible for and helping Canadians make smart decisions with respect to where they live, work and play.
Dan Seguin 19:03
Got a follow up question for you, Bert. What trends are you seeing and what are you learning from consumers through their purchasing decisions?
Bert James 19:12
We are seeing I mean, I think greener homes are an excellent example. To go back to that question. We have seen nearly a doubling of program participation in energy star as a result of the incentives that are available through the greener homes grant. So people speak with their wallet sometimes, and by putting Energy Star products into greener homes, we've seen a significant uptick in the purchasing of fenestration products or windows and doors within the ENERGY STAR space. You know, we are are very proud of what we've done in the lighting space in particular, because we you know, ENERGY STAR lighting at one point in time was it was LED lighting and I think before that it might have there might have been some other model But we have largely moved away from incandescent lighting entirely. So, you know, we see people who are interested in purchasing a product, the concern that we tend to hear from Canadians is around cost differential. So they might not want to purchase a product, even if it's going to save them energy if it costs more money. And this is where I really love the Energy Star program. Because if you're buying a ceiling fan, there's no difference in cost between an ENERGY STAR ceiling fan and another ceiling fan. And this is the same thing across products like televisions, computer monitors. And so people don't need much of a push in order to buy a more efficient product. The concern that they have is obviously if there is a cost differential, this becomes a bit more of a pressing concern whenever we start to talk about housing, because obviously we want people to buy high performance housing. But there's a limit to how much more people are going to be willing to pay for a high performing house as compared to one that might not be an ENERGY STAR certified new home.
Dan Seguin 21:04
Okay, Burt, what role does ENERGY STAR have in achieving Canada's net zero emissions by 2050?
Bert James 21:15
Well, I can give you the most recent numbers that I have in 2022. Alone, ENERGY STAR certified products saved enough energy to power over 320,000 homes for a year or the equivalent of removing 680,000 cars from the road. Improving energy efficiency contributes firsthand to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is an important part of Canada's national approach to addressing climate change. The program supports Canadians in reducing energy consumption and improves efficiency across multiple sectors of the economy. The program assumes a multi pronged approach to advancing these environmental objectives from manufacturing, distribution and purchasing, obviously, as we have discussed residential housing both single family homes and multi unit homes promoting high efficiency and high efficiency performance in the commercial and institutional buildings and challenging industry to push efficiency even further. So I think ENERGY STAR absolutely has a role to play. It is an aspirational standard. But you know, through program participation, and through the work that we do with our various stakeholder groups, we have the power to leverage that brand to influence people to make good purchasing decisions that will ultimately lead them to, you know, reduce their energy consumption, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and and hopefully get us towards net zero by 2050.
Dan Seguin 22:37
Now, let's move on from role to goals. What are some of your own internal goals with respect to net zero?
Bert James 22:47
Well, you know, here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, Net Zero is sort of our shining star, it's the one that we're trying to work towards, we continue to push standards higher and hire on the regulatory side of things. To make products more and more efficient. Obviously, we can't push too far too fast. Because sometimes the products just don't exist to have an energy performance that we know where they need to be. And so we are constantly seeking opportunities to identify product types to improve the standards overall. I know we work in close and close contact with the US EPA who are developing new standards for ENERGY STAR for new products that are coming ahead. And so what we want to do is, is just, we want to do everything that we can to make sure that energy efficiency stays front of mind as we are making purchasing purchasing decisions that we're providing information to people about the importance of of energy efficiency, and really supporting what is a robust labor market for energy efficiency as well, you know, the greener homes, you know, to go back to that has really helped to incentivize the retrofit market with a focus on energy efficiency, I think we we should be very proud of jobs that are created the economic activity that gets created out of that because the environment and the economy are not distinct things, more and more they are becoming one of the same in terms of you know, addressing environmental challenges are is an excellent economic opportunity. And I think ENERGY STAR has a role to play in that space.
Dan Seguin 24:25
Okay, time for a little bragging bird. What are some of Energy STARS or the office of Energy's efficiencies greatest accomplishments?
Bert James 24:35
Well, I'll start with ENERGY STAR. Certainly, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out too. One is that we will be sunsetting the ENERGY STAR requirements for most lighting products. This is to pat ourselves on the back Mission Accomplished story we brought in the ENERGY STAR standard, which was led lights and that standard has what was originally aspirational has now become the industry standard. And we are going to be decommissioning the ENERGY STAR standard because most products are built to it anyways, the overwhelming majority of lighting products that you find meet that standard. And so that's a very good news story for us. Similarly, the EPA has indicated that we will be decommissioning standards related to the performance of fossil fuel devices and burning devices such as furnaces or hot water heaters, because the technology for electric electricity or electric heating and cooling as well as electric water heating have advanced to a point where, you know, our focus is going to become improving that energy performance and, and getting away from consideration around fossil fuels in the world of commercial buildings. Another great story for energy portfolio managers, as I mentioned, is that approximately 45% of commercial buildings by floor space are benchmarked through this through the Portfolio Manager tool, you know, the more that we can get into Portfolio Manager, it's a bit of a game, right? So for building operators, you know, whether you are operating a school or a hospital, you know, a medical clinic, you can compare your facilities, energy performance against other facilities. And the more that we can put into Portfolio Manager, the better we understand the performance of our building stock and look at ways to that we can ultimately improve if I look at the Office of Energy Efficiency, certainly, you know, we've launched a number of very successful programs over the course of the years greener Homes has issued hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants already, but something that I would like to to advocate for is that, you know, OEE also plays a key role of as regulator, so we have saved a lot of energy, and we've phased out some poor performing products such as light bulbs, but we use our regulatory role to support building operators to support industry to support manufacturers, and we have a couple of very well known products in enter guide, both the inner guide that shows up on your appliances and enter guide for houses. These are very well known and web and highly recognized programs. And nothing beats brand recognition whenever it comes to programs such as this.
Dan Seguin 27:13
Lastly, Burt, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Bert James 27:21
Okay, I guess I'm ready as ready as I'll ever be. Yes.
Dan Seguin 27:25
So what are you reading right now?
Bert James 27:28
So I have to confess, Dan, that outside of work, I'm not a big reader. I tend to listen to podcasts. I'm an auditory learner. And so I love the podcast medium, what I'm listening to on podcasts right now, and a couple of things. I love current affairs. And so I listened to Current Affairs podcast quite a bit. Most recently, I, you know, kind of dived into a couple of different topics related to the use of artificial intelligence. And one that is, you know, I would say more of a guilty pleasure than anything else, which is just listening to interminable amounts of sports podcasts. So I, so I read all day, every day for work. And whenever I get to the end of my work day, I tend to turn that skill in my brain off and I tend to listen more than read.
Dan Seguin 28:17
What would you name your boat if you had one? Or maybe you do have one?
Bert James 28:21
I do have a boat. It is a canoe and the canoe’s name is Worth My While.
Dan Seguin 28:29
Who is someone that you truly admire, Bert?
Bert James 28:32
Well, the first person that comes to mind is my mother. Of course, I am a mama's boy, if you can't tell from that statement. My mother is 80 years old, and could write a book on how to fit 25 hours into your day. She is quite incredible. You know, Dan, just to just take a step back, I work with the smartest group of people I've ever known right now. And I look around me and, you know, not just within the management community that I'm part of, but people up and down throughout this organization, I really admire their commitment to the organization, their commitment to the work that they do, and the dedication that they show. So I feel very fortunate to be a public servant, and particularly in the role that I'm in right now just to be surrounded by experts in their fields, both technical experts, policy experts and just leaders in the truest sense of the word. And those are the so if I had to say pick anyone to admire would probably be them.
Dan Seguin 29:30
Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Bert James 29:35
Well, I actually had - and you can tell me after the fact that this is something that I am not allowed to talk about on the podcast - but I had something truly amazing happen to me about a week and a half ago. I was in Algonquin Park, and I was fishing and I ended up catching a fish and he decided that we were going to have it for lunch. And so in the process of cleaning a fish, I opened it up and a live baby snapping turtle fell out of its belly. And it was the most amazing circumstance that I think I've ever been part of. And if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got lots of other experiences. But I cannot get over how magical it was that I happened to be on that beach at that time and to liberate it. So we named the turtle Lucky. And we put the turtle into a safe space for a little while, then we went back and checked on him for a day or so. And then the turtle had disappeared and had gone off. We assumed greener pastures, but that is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. You know, but if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got another example for you.
Dan Seguin 30:49
Okay, now, as a result of the pandemic, many of us are guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV. What is your favorite movie or show?
Bert James 31:01
So similar to my answer about what I am reading, I don't tend to watch a lot. I spend my day in front of screens and a good portion of my day on camera leading meetings, et cetera. The most recent Netflix show that I really got into was Ozark which was, which was a pretty, you know, dark and brooding show at times. But I found it quite compelling in terms of television. I tend to stick to sporting events, most of the time. That's where my interest lies. It's not that I don't enjoy television. It's just that for some reason, sitting in front of yet another screen, whenever I've spent a good portion of my day in front of screens, doesn't really resonate with me.
Dan Seguin 31:48
Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now, Bert?
Bert James 31:53
Well, I think there is an increasing amount of media attention being paid to energy efficiency, you know, not just from a technological perspective, because there's quite a bit of information in the news right now about heat pumps and the possibilities that heat pumps bring to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. What I think is really exciting about it is that it feels somewhat like a coming of age moment in that the world of energy efficiency has been creating jobs for decades. But more and more, I think people are starting to recognize the potential that this sector has from a research and development angle, you know, the potential job opportunities that it creates, and both the public and social benefits that come with energy efficiency as well. And so there does seem to be a recognition of what energy efficiency can bring to the economy. And I love talking about my work, not just with you with anyone who will listen, and I really feel like we are at a turning point, just because of, you know, some of the environmental challenges. I think climate change being the challenge of our generation, and just looking at the enormous potential that exists within this sector to make life better, measurably better for Canadians and for people around the world.
Dan Seguin 33:18
If our listeners want to learn more about you or your organization, how can they connect?
Bert James 33:23
So if you're looking for information about ENERGY STAR, if you go search online for ENERGY STAR Canada will bring you directly to our web presence. If you're looking for more information about the Office of Energy Efficiency, I would counsel people to do the same. I don't often direct people to our website. It's not something that you know, is going to wow you but there is a great amount of information in there really quite relevant information. It can help people find incentive programs within their own jurisdictions. It can help people learn about the products that they want to buy or are considering buying. And it can help greatly from an education standpoint to help people learn about the benefits of energy efficiency in their home and at their office.
Dan Seguin 34:08
Well Burt, this is it, we've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.
Bert James 34:18
I did. I did. How should I say this? It's nice to be on the other side of the speaker. I listen to a lot of podcasts, yours included, and I love to inform myself in this way and whatever I can do to promote my work, which I am intensely proud of. I am happy to do so.
Dan Seguin 34:34
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow
-
What role do communicators play in motivating change? Specifically, how can they move their audiences to take action against climate change? In thinkenergy episode 122, we delve into the world of climate communication with Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re.Climate. Explore the driving forces, opportunities, and challenges of inspiring climate action—from bridging research to practise to empowering change. Listen in for an insightful conversation on shaping a sustainable future.
Related links
Amber Bennet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abennettyyc/
Re.Climate: https://reclimate.ca/
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: https://www.ipcc.ch/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the Tweets on X (formerly Twitter) https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
---------------
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you scroll through the news this morning? How many of those articles that you skim covered a topic related to climate change? I guess it was probably a few. It seems. Every couple of weeks there's a new story dominating the headlines about forest fires, hurricanes, floods, heatwaves, and more, both here in Canada and abroad. We are seeing firsthand the effects of climate change and As consumers, we are receiving information about it. Everywhere we look. Have you ever thought about how you are being communicated to? How is climate change presented? What wording was used? And why? And are their calls to action? How does it make you feel? think not only about news articles you read, but also about documentaries, podcasts, Hollywood movies, right down to your everyday life. Think about the newsletter you receive from your municipality. The assembly instruction on the last piece of furniture you purchase, or this section on your favorite clothing brand, website about their sustainable practice, communications surrounding climate change are pretty much everywhere and the need to be. In June of 2021, the Canadian government introduced the Canadian net zero emission Accountability Act, which puts into legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. Different companies across the country are making their commitment, much like we did in 2022, when we committed to leading the way to a Smart Energy Future by becoming net zero by 2030. The push on to stop the damaging pollution emitted into the environment on a daily basis, namely caused by burning fossil fuels. Scientists are urging that this is crunch time. So if you haven't already, now is the time to hone in on how and what you are communicating to your customers. So here is today's big question. What role do communicators play in motivating change within their audiences to take action against climate change? Our guest today is Amber Bennett, Deputy Director of Re Climate, Canada's first climate communications and Engagement Center. This new organization launched in 2022 brings together Canada's leading climate communication academics and practitioners, and aims to help communicators create strategies that inspire the public to support climate action. Amber is one of Canada's top climate communication strategists and capacity builder who works with groups across the country bridging gaps between research and practice. She led the groundbreaking Alberta narrative project and supported much of the foundational work to pilot and build reclaim it. Amber, thank you for joining us today.
Amber Bennett 03:54
Thank you for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:56
Amber, maybe you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and Re Climate How did you get into climate communications? How did Re Climate come to be and what does it aim to achieve?
Amber Bennett 04:09
Okay, I'll try to hold all of those questions at once. Well, I am based in Calgary, Alberta, which may seem like an unlikely place for some for the executive director of a Canadian organization or Canadian center focused on climate communications and engagement at Carleton University. But that's where I live with my family. And what to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been circling around climate communications for a very, very long time. You know, the the mind has a funny way of making sense of things in retrospect, but I started with a Bachelor of Science and then I moved on to a public relations degree and then I worked with the mayor of Calgary on the one of the I forget which numbered cop, but it was a Copenhagen. And I think that was really the first time I began to think about what, what is climate change and had a certain kind of exposure to the, to the, you know what the challenge was and what not. And when I saw I kind of went on, and I did a master's degree. And it was when I had needed to choose a topic for my master's degree when there was the catastrophic flooding here in Calgary. And there is this, like, amazing paradox where the, you know, Calgary Stampede, which is the epitome, I would say, of the, you know, kind of old boys club. And when that happened, when the floods happened, their motto was come hell or high water come hell or high water, they were going to, you know, produce the show. And at the same time, one of the readings I was doing as a part of my master's program was also titled come hell or high water. And it was really about the science of climate change, and why it is making it so difficult. Why is it so difficult for humans to kind of wrap our heads around it. So fast forward, I completed a master's, and then did a series of really interesting projects. I did some work with a group out of the UK called Climate outreach, which is focused on climate communications and engagement as well. And then started working with a group of people here in Canada to set up a similar center or similar organization that would focus on supporting climate communicators, helping to kind of bring together the research that was happening, as well as the practice. And so that's really why Re Climate it is set up to do, we're really dedicated towards advancing the practice of climate communications and engagement through research, training, offering resources, pulling resources together, strategy, and developing strategy with other types of practitioners, as well as convening networks of both scholars, as well as those people who are kind of out there in the real world doing campaigning and advocacy work and trying to, you know, communicate with citizens and whatnot. So, that's kind of where we're at.
Dan Seguin 07:34
Now, Amber, it sounds like Re Climate, is a very diversified organization that brings together experts in social science, Public Affairs, and science. What kind of professionals work together in this environment? And what does it each bring to the table?
Amber Bennett 07:55
Love this question. So Re Climate brings together I think I've said it research and practice. And so you have those practitioners who may be doing public engagement campaigns, they may be working for utilities, they may be working in local governments or other kinds of government, they might also be working in advocacy organizations. And so they often don't have the time, or I would argue the luxury of going into, you know, latest academic journals, or even, you know, kind of other thought leaders who are publishing in the field. Why? Because they're busy, they're doing the work. And so, you know, that kind of takes a lot of time to kind of go in and look at the research, track it down, make sense of it? They're also, I would argue, very few who have the time to do an evaluation, like after they've done something, what did we learn from it? You know, What, did we make a difference? You know, what kind of impact are we having, and similarly, just getting together with other folks, right, and talking about it and sharing what they're learning. So that's kind of on the practitioner's side. And so, you know, when we say we bring or convene networks of people together, we're really trying to do that, you know, we're trying to provide resources, synthesize, you know, research, both, perhaps, you know, it's public polling, or maybe it's social science, you know, what's happening in in, that's relevant, but also bringing people together to share with each other and learn with each other. So that's kind of that practitioner side. And, you know, there's also, I would say, sometimes a culture where people feel like they're competing with each other, you know, certainly within the charitable sector. So kind of, I think, for those folks who are coming in, who are kind of in the field, having that support and someone who's doing In the work on their behalf to kind of make sense of synthesize, pull it in together like yours, your five tips here, the things you need to do. That's extremely helpful. And then on the flip side, I think for researchers, you know, they're, they're kind of passionate, there's a reason why they're there thinking or trying to understand, you know, how to better engage people, or what's the right framing, or what are the values or whatever it is, because they're passionate about it. So by being able to kind of bridge from the practitioner world into a more academic or into a research field, we're able to just give people real world challenges. It's like, here's why practitioners are actually struggling with, you're an expert in this, please talk to us about it, or please, you know, this is the kind of information that they need. So, you know, kind of the practitioners, I would say, Bring the complexity of the real world, right, that we're dealing with real people, resource constraints, you know, various kinds of issues and whatnot, whereas researchers bring the kind of precision of being able to look at something with a whole body of understanding behind them to be able to kind of see, well, here's what may be operating within this situation, here's what we know about it. And here are some other kinds of interventions or approaches that we might be able to take. I don't know if that exactly answers your question. Maybe the scientists part, I would say they bring the public trust. Right. So whenever we're polling, you know, consistently, scientists come up on top as having high levels of public trust on climate and energy transition. And so I think that they bring that kind of authenticity. And, you know, they're not there, they're often unpolitical, right? They're not seem to be benefiting, you know, personally from talking about it. So they're really effective messengers.
Dan Seguin 11:57
Wondering if you can share some insight into what the average Canadian's knowledge on climate change is? How much do they know about the main causes and the path forward?
Amber Bennett 12:14
Well, I would say that Canadians probably know a lot about climate change. But what we measure, it's a little bit different. So when, and I would encourage folks to take a look at some of the reports that we have published on ReClimate.ca The one that I'm, you know, I kind of go back to was published this year, or maybe it was last year. But within these reports, we basically look across 65, or more, either private or publicly available surveys, or public polls or whatnot, and we kind of do it a roll up of okay, so it's not just one survey that has said, this is multiple surveys that are showing kind of trends and themes in in where the Canadian beliefs or attitudes or or mindsets are. So when you do that, and when we looked across, you know, 65, or so what you can see is, is that, even though you have the majority of Canadians that would say yes, climate change is real, and it is happening, almost half of them attribute both natural and manmade causes, you know, attribute the cause of climate change due to natural causes as well as as manmade. And so why is that important, is because when we get into the conversations around solutions, then without the kind of foundational understanding that burning fossil fuels creates pollution, which creates a heat trapping blanket, which is heating our planet, and causing all of these extreme weather events and natural disasters that we're seeing. Without that kind of clear understanding that burning fossil fuels is the cause of climate change. And when you get into the solutions, and what people actually have to do about it, the conversations a bit more, there's a lot of confusion, or there's a lot of room for confusion, which is kind of what we're seeing and I can talk a little bit more about that. So you know, I spend a lot of time in focus groups, and this kind of conversation comes up. So when we talk about solutions in the path forward, you talk about climate change, and you start to have discussions around what you are doing, you know, recycling will often come up, plastics will often come up. There's a whole kind of suite of things that people are doing, but very few people are able to name a particular policy or real intervention that you know, that will address some of the root causes. And we people on this podcast may not be like, Hey, why really. But you know, there are a lot of different people and for many climate change, even though they may be living within the impacts are the, you know, experiencing in their daily lives, they have many other kinds of concerns and priorities that are happening at the same time. So what I would say is that Canadians believe that climate change is happening, there is at least half that are uncertain, or would attribute it to both natural causes, and manmade causes. This kind of understanding of burning fossil fuels, the trapping blanket, you know, that's not well understood by many. And so they're kind of subsequently stopping burning fossil fuels, as a path forward isn't clear, as it could be, or, or should be at this point in time. And maybe the other thing I if you, if you'll let me, the other thing I would say is, is that, you know, Canadians consistently report, when you ask them very high levels of concern about climate change, right? Most people can see forest fires, you know, that's how we are making sense of what climate changes. It is through these kinds of experiences, either directly, or our experiences of seeing, you know, extreme weather and natural disasters. So people are expressing very high levels of concern. But if you ask, unprompted, what are you know, what are the issues that you're most concerned about? It often will address climate change as mentioned Much, much farther down on the list. Right. So, affordability and access to health care, cost of living, housing, there are many other issues that people are faced with and dealing with in their day to day lives.
Dan Seguin 17:18
Okay, see the term movable middle mentioned in reports and on the reclaimed site, what is the movable middle? And why is it so important?
Amber Bennett 17:34
Great question. And I feel compelled to say that I think that term movable metal is used differently by different people. I think within the context of, you know, the work that we do, it kind of comes out of, you know, some of the themes that I was talking about in the last in in the last question or last answer. It's this idea that, you know, people are kind of undecided. Or they're conflicted about an issue. So they could move either one way or the other, but they're not at the moment. oppositional? Right. So if you think about, you know, a broader population, there is a segment, you know, of Canadians, whose identities are really built around the idea that they don't believe in climate change. They're not going to support, you know, climate action and whatnot. There's also on the other side, a whole group of Canadians whose identity is built around me. I'm a climate activist, and I'm a climate advocate. And you know, and I'm an environmentalist, and so they're on the other side, but most of us just kind of live in the middle. Some are more well informed than others. But for the most part, people are concerned, right in the middle. They have they, you know, when they ask, yes, we want the government to act, we are highly supportive of it. But when it comes down to it, it's this tension around the fact that because they may not be well informed, or not thinking about this, they have many competing priorities. You're kind of undecided, or sometimes they're just conflicted about an issue. Right? Because on the one hand, as an example, yeah, I think we absolutely need renewable energy. We need lots of, you know, solar panels, I just don't want them in my house, or we need lots of, you know, solar, renewable solar farms. I just don't want them all over the landscape that I cherish from my childhood. So there are many things that you know are underneath that are operating underneath for people that kind of create some conflict for them. So people, when we talk About the movable metal, really, I think what's important is to acknowledge that most people are concerned. They want when they support action, but they're undecided, potentially about one particular aspect or issue of it. Or there's some other kind of thing that's happening for them that's creating a conflict. Or they're kind of uninformed. So, you know, I think that you know, why an example? Or rather, I'll back up that uninformed piece is particularly important right now, as we see more and more kinds of organized misinformation and disinformation. Right. So as an example, when I'm in focus groups, I can predict with very, you know, a lot of certainty, what are some of the kinds of key narratives that are coming to the surface where people are kind of undecided? One of them might be, well, EV batteries are actually worse, you know, for the environment than, you know, driving a car, or there's no way that we're going to be able to electrify everything the grids can't support. Or it may be that solar panels actually create more emissions when you produce them than they save in their lifetime. So these kinds of things that are very dominant are kind of recurring pieces of information. And when people who are not thinking about this a lot or deeply, as much as maybe you were, I are people who are listening to this. So when people encounter these, this kind of information or confusion about what are the actual solutions? They really don't know what to think. Right? So like a third of us sit within that category, right? If I actually don't know how to make sense of the information that I'm hearing, right, and I don't trust so much of it. Because I know that, you know, I know about misinformation, I know that I shouldn't be, you know, you know, trusting everything that I hear, etc. So that's kind of the deal with the movable middle, right? So they believe climate change is real and not climate deniers. They just may be conflicted or undecided, or just not, you know, as informed because they're not thinking about it on a daily basis.
Dan Seguin 22:32
Now Amber, why is it important for the average communicator, like those in the energy sector, for example, to better understand the strategy behind climate change communications?
Amber Bennett 22:45
Yeah, um, I think because climate change is a super wicked problem, and is really complicated. And maybe me rambling on for the past 20 minutes might give folks a sense of the things that, you know, we were trying to think about and grapple with all at the same time. And so I would say that, in other cases, although arguably, I would argue that information, probably doesn't work it in on any issue. But what we do know, is just giving people information, they're not, you know, people can't reason their way into kind of behavior change. So, you know, we live within systems. You know, we live within communities where, you know, we're surrounded by friends and family, we see ourselves as kind of certain types of people. There are all of these kinds of social needs and emotional needs that humans bring to the table, that climate change communications, and I would argue, probably any good communications needs to attend to. So this sense of belonging, right, so I belong to a community. Other people like me think and act this way, or I expect other people like me to think and act this way. Being able to understand even what the problem is can kind of create shared understanding so that people who are making decisions aren't making decisions that don't consider you that kind of shared understanding peace. People need a sense of efficacy, control in their lives, they need some agency, they just don't need someone making all these decisions on their behalf without any involvement. You know, people want to be good people. And to be able to ask questions and to challenge things that are going to impact their lives without being dismissed as a climate denier or shamed or whatnot. And people trust others for different reasons, right. So scientists are highly tuned lasts. politicians aren't big corporations aren't, right. But the ones who are often leading this conversation in public are big corporations and politicians. So all of those are the things that we need to attend to when we think about, you know, climate communications, and because it's such a complicated problem, and extends to so many aspects of our life. And to be fair, there's a lot of organized opposition and strategies to create polarization to create misinformation. There's a lot happening all at the same time.
Dan Seguin 25:43
Okay, let me ask you this, what effect does it have to all be on the same page?
Amber Bennett 25:51
I often give the analogy of an orchestra, right, where we all have the same song sheet, but we're all playing different instruments. And part of that is, you know, there is a role for the government in setting regulation. And there's a role for activists and advocates to be, you know, opening up new possibilities, holding governments and corporations to account. But actually, we also need businesses to be building out the products and the services and the and the things that we'll be using in our lives. And you need all of these different actors operating all at the same time. And, you know, to live, I guess, within an ecosystem, so I'm very skeptical of how one message is the efficacy of one message, I think that really what is helpful is if people are exposed to and have the ability to make meaning out of climate change, and out of energy transition through many different parts of their lives, and they actually have many different avenues to talk about it and to create, you know, a shared understanding of what they want for their future, or where we're going.
Dan Seguin 27:23
Let's move to electrification, and renewable energy. Cool? These are important pieces of the world's response to climate change. For those in the energy sector who have a direct relationship with electricity consumers, is there a certain messaging that we should be sharing with our audiences?
Amber Bennett 27:47
Such a great question. I might change, I might have a different thought while I'm making a cup of tea, you know, in a couple of hours from now. But I think that there is a very, goes back to the question that we talked about with literacy. And also goes back to some of the things I mentioned around people needing to have a sense of control in their lives. Right. So what we know from the research is that people's motivation to do something as a whole has a lot less to do with their perception of risk than it does there because their perception of their ability to act, and that that action will make a difference. What people really, I would say, based on all the things that I look at and read and whatnot, want is a place to act that makes sense. And that is relevant to their lives. So I think for folks who work in electrification, work in renewable energy, a part of what we need right now is both to fill in all of the pixels around, like, where are we going? What is this going to look like in my daily life? What are the things that make sense for me to do right now? And how are the things that I'm doing making a difference within, you know, the broader community that I know and love and want to make sure it's safe and prosperous? And all of those things? So I think what we're, what we need, in part, are those people who are responsible for infrastructure, for services, for that kind of daily life to start filling in the pixels of what is this going to mean? Because people get a little stuck on, like, blind faith. We're just going to hand it over and other people make decisions. People want to have a conversation. They want to have a space where they can kind of create a shared understanding, right, like a public imagination of like, where are we going? And what's it going to be like when we get there? And what is it going to need in my daily life? And so I think that there's that part, like, what is this going to look like? And then I think the other part is, what are you asking me to do? And how is it gonna make a difference? For me and for my community, Canadians are very generous, right? They're willing to do stuff, even if it doesn't benefit them, if they really believe that it'll, you know, benefit the broader community or collective good, they'll step up. But I would argue that we haven't done a really good job of giving people tangible, practical, relevant things that do make a difference. Neither have we done a great job of filling out the vision of what this is gonna look like, right? It's kind of a little bit like a cliff at the moment, right? We're all going to transition to renewables. And we haven't filled in, what is that actually going to look like? Right? Am I going to have a gas station at the end of my street? I don't know. What is it going to look like? That's what I would say is storytelling, right? What's the story of what this is? How is this going to happen? And what it will look like when we get there.
Dan Seguin 31:27
Okay, Amber. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Hydro Ottawa has committed to being net zero by 2030. Does this kind of messaging resonate with the general public? Are there best practices in how to communicate this type of message in order to influence and maybe even promote change in our community?
Amber Bennett 31:51
Well, I would say if we kind of got back to, you know, when we think about Canadians, right, so I think that you've got a little section of folks who sit on one end, who net zero by 2030 makes a lot of sense. They understand what Net Zero is, they understand why you've chosen 2030. They understand what getting to net zero, you know, even means, however, it's likely that a section of those people are kind of skeptical. Why? Because they've been hearing a lot of targets, and not a lot of action, you know, for many, many decades. And then, so that's, you know, that one group, right, we start to see kind of dropping, you know, belief that, you know, it's possible, or that's going to happen. And then you have that whole other group in the middle that I was talking about, where net zero means absolutely nothing. The word the language, net zero means, you know, I'm being a little bit brutal, but it's true, right, where net zero doesn't really mean a whole lot. And, and neither does 2030, or the importance of it. And I think, you know, I sitting in a boardroom or a meeting room the other day, and we're talking about targets, and it really struck me when the person on the other side said, we know that this is ambitious, and we know that it's impossible, but we have to say it, because it's actually what science requires of us. These are not a political target, it's actually a scientific target, that we need to reduce emissions by this amount by this period in time, even if we'll never get there. That's what science requires of us. So I think all that to say, targets, I think are very helpful for administrators, for policy makers, for business leaders, etc. To help, you know, turn the ship, and to help start getting the kind of resourcing and planning and whatnot in place. But for the general public, what they actually want is what we were just talking about, tell me where we're going and tell me what I have to do. And tell me why it makes a difference.
Dan Seguin 34:17
Cool, Amber. You were a co-author on an incredibly helpful document entitled, climate messaging that works, talking about energy transition and climate change in Canada, which outlines the concept of message triangle. For me, it was a simple takeaway that could be immediately implemented into any communications surrounding climate change. Could you share the coles note of the message triangle with our listeners?
Amber Bennett 34:50
I can, and I would love to. And I suspect that, you know, there'll be parts of what I'm about to say that begin to resonate with some of the past things that I've said or are connected to. So really in a triangle, the underlying principle is that we're trying to create a whole story or a whole narrative for people. And that has a lot to do with how human beings and how we have evolved and how we make sense of the world, we make sense of the world through narrative and through stories. And so when we just give people one piece of something, it doesn't satisfy the way that we have been trained. Since, you know, the, since the beginning to kind of make sense of the world. So what we want to do is we want to give people a challenge that has to either be overcome, or that we're at risk of losing something. So there's a challenge, there's a choice that we have right now that we need to make. And then there's an opportunity. And if we can hit each piece of that triangle, what we're doing is we're creating a whole story for people, which allows them to make sense of why are you taking my time? And why should I listen to you? So you know, as an example, when we talk about the challenge, you know, part of this is really, I think, being more clear about the cause of climate change. But also, what are some of the challenges that we're seeing, that are related to climate change within our communities? You know, I was listening to a CBC program the other day, and there's an entire community in Newfoundland, that's actually moving back from the water. And this is, you know, after the aftermath of Hurricane Fiona and whatnot. So, you know, some of the challenges that we're seeing, what's the challenge that we're trying to overcome? And ideally, I would, right size that at a community scale, right? So people feel overwhelmed when it's my personal individual problem. But if we can begin to talk about this as a community challenge, then people are much more likely to engage because they don't feel like doing it all on their own. Similarly, a choice, right, as communicators, if we're talking specifically to communicators, we often leave out the choice at the moment, what is the call to action? What are you actually trying? What are you asking someone to do? Is it voted a certain way? Is it a conversation? If it takes a particular action, we need something, there's some sort of choice, and there's some sort of action that has to create tension within this story, right? All good stories have a choice that has to be made by the main, you know, character, and then the opportunity. And I think, you know, part of what I've been talking about around, where are we going? What's it going to look like when we get there is that opportunity. So if we're talking about the challenge, is, you know, we're seeing increasing extreme weather, that's because of burning fossil fuels and pollution, the trapping blanket, our choice right now is we need to electrify and that means building infrastructure, the opportunity that we have is at a community scale, both for you know, ourselves and and for others. This kind of, you know, whatever might be the relevance of it right, we'll have a more dependable electricity supply. You know, if we're all in EVs, and we have backup, you know, batteries in our cars, when the power goes out, you know, you've got a little mini generator that you can draw on that gives you electricity, you know, through the storm or something, whatever it might look like. But that's the point is that we're trying to create a full picture for people. We want to talk about, what's the challenge? What's the choice? And what's the opportunity on the other side?
Dan Seguin 39:22
Now, climate change has been a hot topic for oh, God, at least 20 years now. Are there any challenges with keeping an audience engaged and interested for so long?
Amber Bennett 39:36
Yeah, there's actually a woman out of the States who wrote an article. Her name is Suzanne Moser. And it's something I'm going to botch the title but it's something like, you know, Climate Communications 20 Years Later: What Have We Really Learned? And I think that in fairness, I think we've learned a lot, right? I think most people understand that it's more complicated than just giving people a brochure at this point. And I think that in 20 years, we've done a much better job of crystallizing, what is it that we need to do? However, there's also been 20 years of misinformation, 20 years of broken plans and not, you know, unachieved targets etc. And I was chatting with a woman the other day and, and she's like, because I kind of feel like forest fires and floods and hurricanes are doing the job that we used to do, you know, which is creating alarm and concern and demonstrating like, this is real. And it's a big problem. So I think in 20 years, we've had 20 years more of all of that. But we haven't, you know, but, but rather, I would say the job now in this moment, is the pathway, right? And giving people that kind of those choices, that control, and that sense of agency, that they can do something about it. And we need to get on with the action part, right. So we can't leave people in just concern. Because our minds can only hold so much anxiety and concern at one time, amongst all of the other things that we're concerned and anxious about, you know, climate change is just, you know, even more dreadful, particularly, I think, for younger people. So we can't, you know, people can only stay there for so long before they start to kind of check out because, as I go back, you know, I kind of mentioned it in the beginning. It's like our sense of whether or not we or our sense of motivation, or motivation to act has a lot more to do with our sense of being able to do something about it, rather than the risk that it that it proposes or that it is, so yeah. So, I would say the challenges of keeping people interested or if you can't give them something to do, then, you know, at a certain point, you kind of have to just check out of the conversation until, you know, you get clear about what are you asking me, and I think that this kind of anxiety is a real problem. And so the road for them, this moment really requires us to get much more clear about where we're going in the pathway forward.
Dan Seguin 42:52
Okay, Amber, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Amber Bennett 43:00
Ready to go? Okay,
Dan Seguin 43:03
What are you reading right now?
Amber Bennett 43:05
Wine Witch on Fire by Natalie Maclean, I think.
Dan Seguin 43:09
Okay, now, what would you name your boat? If you had one, maybe you do. Maybe you don't.
Amber Bennett 43:17
I don't have one. And it would be a miracle if I ever have one. So I'm going to name it a Miracle.
Dan Seguin 43:24
Who is someone that you truly admire?
Amber Bennett 43:28
This is kind of really out of left field, but I'm gonna go with it. So during COVID, there was a woman named Trinny Woodall who used to do What Not To Wear on the BBC. It was like one of the original kinds of reality programs, like one of those. And, you know, I'd love to be more philosophical than this. But I admire her because her whole... a) she works so hard, but also she just wants to make women of a certain age or any woman just feel good. And I really just admire someone whose life and business and purpose is really just trying to make other people see the goodness in themselves or to feel better about themselves. So she's, and she's also for any one who's interested. I mean, a social media magician, like she's, she's magic in terms of what she did. She started during COVID and kind of as a comms person, like, Yeah, amazing. Kind of how she has set herself up as an influencer.
Dan Seguin 44:42
Okay, Amber, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Amber Bennett 44:51
Magic? Yeah, this is hard. Okay, so just bear with me. Great start! This is not as rapid as you probably want. I'm moving houses. I bought a house. And there were two moments in like, one was do I put an offer in? Or do we put an offer in? And then there was another moment, kind of later on. And in both cases, I was about to say, I was going to pull back and say no, you know, I'm not going to go forward with it. And I kid you not, in that moment, the wind picked up. So in one case, I was outside and the wind picked up and got very, very strong where I was standing. So the first time you know, you can kind of blow it off. It's like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever. That was weird. But it happened twice. It happened a second time. And then the second time where I was, you know, kind of stuck. And, you know, wanting to retreat and I got a little, you know, scared about, you know, kind of taking the leap. And in that second time, the same thing happened, where the winds picked up, and they got a little bit stronger around me. And then they calmed down afterwards. And not in a like, oh, I kind of feel like no, it's kind of little, you know, it was very dramatic. And so anyways, I move houses tomorrow, so I'm gonna just put that out to magic. Not quite sure. It doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Why? Why did we do it? But we're there now.
Dan Seguin 46:26
Now, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Amber Bennett 46:32
Yeah, I'm, like so many parents. And I would argue women in particular, the double bind of having to take care of kids as though I don't work. And work even though I don't have kids. And I think for a lot of parents that was the impossible situation and I don't feel that that's really gone away.
Dan Seguin 47:02
This next one I always enjoy. What have you been watching a lot more of on Netflix or TV lately? What's your favorite? In other words, you know, what's your favorite movie or TV show?
Amber Bennett 47:17
I love the Peaky Blinders. And I've gone back and I've watched certain episodes again, just because they're so delicious with the costumes and the characters and the whole thing. I'm, yeah, totally enthralled. Yeah, love it. Okay.Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now. Um, I think that if anyone were to see my email inbox, they'd be very surprised at, you know, I think communion policy was the king for so long. And I think finally, we're at the point where we're beginning to understand that the public has to be on board, the public actually needs to have informed consent about so many of these choices. And we need a social mandate to ensure that climate action is the third rail, right? You know, if you're going to be a leader in this country, or business operating in this country, then you need to be a climate leader, and you need to be a climate business, it has to be fundamental to all of the decisions that you make, and how you and how you operate. Because science doesn't give us any other choice at this moment. So that's, so I think, the kind of realization that we can have all the technology and all the policy that we want, but if people aren't on board, then it's never going to happen. And so I get to work with very interesting people, unexpected from all walks of life, and you know, different sectors who are beginning to understand that, really, this is something we're going to work on until all of us and those beyond. For many generations, yeah.
Dan Seguin 49:12
Now, if our listeners want to learn more about you, Amber, or your organization, how can they connect?
Amber Bennett 49:18
Yeah, well, easiest is to go to our website, so Re.Climate, so that's reclimate.ca. And folks can sign up there if they want to, you know, make sure that they get more information on events, and we do lots of, you know, webinars and talks and we release reports and, and whatnot. So that's a great thing to do. And I'm on LinkedIn, and I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. So Amber Bennett, and I also share lots of things there. that I find interesting.
Dan Seguin 49:59
Well, Amber. This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Amber Bennett 50:08
Yeah. Great questions. Great chat. And thank you.
Dan Seguin 50:14
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Extreme weather, cyber attacks, and disruptive technology pose growing threats worldwide. And energy companies are at higher risk. In Episode 121 of thinkenergy, we discuss the urgent need for crisis readiness in Canada’s energy sector. Guest Melissa Agnes, CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute, is an authority in crisis preparedness, reputation management, and brand protection. With experience spanning NATO to global non-profits, tune in for her insight on how to fortify your brand for turbulent times.
Related links
Crisis Ready, by Melissa Agnes: https://melissaagnes.com/crisis-ready/
Melissa Agnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissaagnes/
Melissa Agnes on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/melissa_agnes
Crisis Ready Institute: https://crisisreadyinstitute.com/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
--------------
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the think energy podcast. Within the energy sector, we've seen numerous companies rise and fall in the eyes of the public when confronted by crises for which they were unprepared. As climate change, cyber attacks and other threats wreak havoc, energy companies from around the world are finding themselves more susceptible to dealing with crises on a regular basis. Here in Ottawa, we've seen our city hit with major weather events, including tornadoes, floods, freezing rain, major thunderstorms, and durational. windstorm in the last few years alone. So, take it from a company that knows - a crisis communication plan cannot be drafted and filed away on a shelf to collect dust. It's a living document that has to be integrated across the entire organization. However, emergencies and crises are unpredictable and rarely unfold as rehearsed. So our crisis program has to be flexible and practical. In a fast moving event, it is important to make sure processes are as smooth as butter. How a company communicates during a crisis has changed dramatically during my career. From the rise of the Internet, social media, smartphones and voice technology to name just a few. These new channels present opportunities to connect with your audiences, we are now able to communicate instantly directly to the public in the event of a crisis. In our space, Hydro Ottawa is seen as an authority which enables us to frame the conversation appropriately. At the same time, during a crises, all eyes are on us. And we better shine. As Warren Buffett said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. The Internet, and the communication channels that come with it also present challenges, namely, information overload. Everyone is now vying for your attention. Given all the information out there, you don't want to just be more noise, you need to stand out. So here is today's big question. If
1
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
your phone rings tomorrow, and you're suddenly confronted with a major crises, are you and your business prepared to handle it? Do you know what steps to take to mitigate that damage? So joining me today, I have a leading authority on crisis preparedness, reputation management and brand protection. She is the founder and CEO of the Crisis Ready Institute and the author of Crisis Ready Building an Invincible Brand in an uncertain world. My very special guest today has worked with NATO Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Defense financial firms, technology companies, health care organizations, cities and municipalities, law enforcement agencies, the global nonprofit, and many others. She is a guest lecturer at universities around the world and also sits on the Global Advisory Council for the Institute for strategic risk management. Dear listeners, please welcome Melissa, Agnes. Melissa, maybe you could start by sharing with our listeners your journey into crisis management, what's a crisis management strategist? And how did you get where you are today? Lastly, what does it mean to be crisis ready?
Melissa Agnes 04:34
Okay, the three part question and I'm going to do my best to be as succinct as possible. So crisis management strategist- I view it that way. Crisis communication strategist, crisis leadership. Like I view the strategy part of it to say that it's not just reactive, right? You're not being simply reactive where you're being hit with something and you're reacting to something. You are- you need to be strategic in the way that you respond to crisis, as well as in the way that you prepare to respond to crisis. So that's the whole premise of being crisis ready, which was the third part of your question. So that's what a strategist comes in. And I'll add that it's not about, you know, PR people might look at or if people might associate it with PR and spin. It's not that at all. It's not about manipulation. It's about looking at the long term of what's happening, and essentially the relationships that matter to the organization, and looking at a crisis through a lens that says, 'What's the best way for us to respond now and over the long term", which I'm sure we'll dive more into intense conversation in a way that keeps us building strengthening trust. With your question in regards to what is does it mean to be crisis ready? The answer is right there. So crisis ready is a term that I coined well over a decade ago, because I was dissatisfied with the status quo of crisis preparedness, which is pretty much a through line throughout my entire career, as my career is based off of frustration and I don't like to complain, so I don't like complain about something and not provide a solution. So my career is always around, like what's happening in the world, what really, really doesn't just doesn't sit right with me. And then what can I do in my way to contribute right to make things better? So the crisis ready came from the frustration that crisis preparedness, quote, unquote, crisis preparedness, which the was the more common kind of terminology for it within our profession, or within the industry was about having a plan, checking that box off, that leadership could say, like, Okay, we've got a crisis management plan, or we've got a crisis communication plan, we're set. And I knew 15 years ago, 14 years ago, when I started this, that made no sense to me. So I turned the coin crisis ready to give it a specific definition, which is it's a cultural approach. It's not just about having a plan. It's about building out programs and ingraining them into the culture of the organization. So that every single member of every single team in every single department and every single division and every single region, has the skill set has the mindset and has the capabilities to identify risk and its onset, to then figure out what to do with it, like categorize it, know what to do with it. So is it an issue? Is it a crisis? What do I do? And then effectively responding to the
2
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
incident or the situation in a way that, yes, it de escalates it quickly, yes you mitigate long term material impact, but more over that piece with crisis ready, that's very unique and very important, is you respond in a way that strengthens trust.
Dan Seguin 07:45
Okay. Sorry. Now, this is another two part question.
Melissa Agnes 07:50
Let's do it.
Dan Seguin 07:51
When a crisis hits, the last thing we want is for a company to bury their heads in the sand. Having said that, is there such a thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communications? Next, here's my other question. When might that framework help an organization deal with an actual event? communicate in real time and deal with stakeholders like elected officials, the media, employees and constituents?
Melissa Agnes 08:25
Okay, so the first part of that question is, is there such thing as a manageable framework for effective crisis communication? Absolutely yes, because I teach it. That's what we do we help. So essentially, are Crisis Ready Institute exists, because there is a lack or there's a void of actually teaching the essentials for crisis communication and crisis leadership, in any aspect of our academic lives. We're not taught these things no matter what, you know, it's very, very, very rare. And if you have been taught, it was likely very recently, and probably not even to the level that I would really give it that stamp of approval, unfortunately. So yes, all of that to say that that is what Crisis Ready Institute does, that is a big part of what I do is I see complex subject matter and skills, and I'm able to kind of put them into formulas and frameworks and different things that make it make them just more comprehensible. Is that a word? That's a word, right? That's an English word. Easier to understand, easier to truly conceptualize and giving a formula for okay, it's like until that skill level is at the point that we want it to be, where its intrinsic, and it's reflexive and it's just like, something happens and you know how to respond. That you want to have those 1-2-3 steps that are actually applicable. So yes, and then this second part of your question was, I mean, the crisis ready framework is designed to be scalable from issue straight through to crisis. So obviously, we teach for the worst case scenarios. But if you can respond to the worst case scenarios in a way that, again, de escalates the situation quickly, mitigates long term material impact, and strengthens trust within the organization, both internally and externally. So essentially, strengthening brand equity, building brand equity as a result of the crisis management. Then if you can do that, in the worst times, you can do that - you can apply all of the same tactics, all of the same techniques, all of the same strategies, in issue management. And in doing that, so like the lesser degree type of situation, materially impactful type of situation. So taking that, and when you are able to do that, first of all, obviously, you nip issues in the bud, like really quickly. And secondly, the organizations that are really truly crisis ready they are less vulnerable, to crises and to risks and to, you know, the things happening because they know they have, again, it's the mindset, the skills and the
3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
capability to respond. And the frameworks that we have at Crisis Ready Institute are designed to be one scalable, but also building blocks. So you learn the fundamentals. And you learn how to apply them in different types of situations and scenarios with different types of mindsets and emotions and all of these different facets that play into crisis management.
Dan Seguin 11:32
Okay. How vital is it for an organization to maintain their social licence to operate? How does one safeguard its reputation?
Melissa Agnes 11:43
Okay, well, I think that you are the perfect person to answer that question. I mean, how vital is your social licence to operate, right? Like, that's reputation. That's trust. That social licence to operate, it's in the name, you can't really have a successful business in certain industries without it. And it's all about trust. It's all about - you and I were just talking about this right before we hit record, right? It's all about how much trust do you build prior to a crisis? And how well do you know how to respond to that trust remains and hopefully even strengthens as a result of effective crisis management? When it comes down to, for me, with the way that I see it to, like, simplify it as much as possible, is that strong business, solid business, successful business is built and developed on like, strong relationships. Right. So that's the social licence to operate, if you want to look at it that way. Crisis Management is about doing right by those very relationships. When it matters most when you're put to the test. It's all about trust.
Dan Seguin 12:53
If the communications plan is a living organism that helps you navigate through any disruption. Is it safe to say that it's not about dusting off that plan that just sits on that bookshelf?
Melissa Agnes 13:11
Absolutely. Things happen too fast. Things happen too fast things happen outside of the realm of what we planned for, or what we may have imagined it to be, or unfold as anybody who had a crisis management plan. And I'm saying plan, like, I'll use the words program and culture and skill set and mindset capabilities to talk about crisis ready, right. But if we're looking at it through the crisis, preparedness, going back to the start of our conversation, lens of like, let's check off that box. And let's just have that plan. Plans are linear, they're siloed. They're theoretical, more than they are practical, they become obsolete pretty much the second you put them on the shelf. And they're not ingrained. Things happen so quickly, they escalate so quickly, that to be looking around going like, oh, where's where's the plan that I think that one day, once upon a time we created, like, let's look at that and try to see. Already you're suffering Crisis Response penalty as a result of that, because you're not being effective with your time in terms of response. So anybody who had that type of plan prior to COVID, as an example, quickly, unfortunately realized and learned the hard way. How ineffective that mindset that approach is, so we really, really want to look at crisis ready as a program as a skill set as the mindset is capability that's ingrained into the culture of the organization.
4
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Dan Seguin 14:34
Okay, Melissa, now, let me ask you this. How can an organization transform crisis readiness into a competitive advantage?
Melissa Agnes 14:46
That's a really great question. This is one of those things that like it's really hard to sell what I do - Crisis Ready - because effectively what you're doing is you're trying to sell insurance to people who, who aren't obliged to pay purchase insurance right and human nature states that we don't want to look we want to avoid, we don't want to look at what's challenging or what's scary, or what makes us really uncomfortable, especially if we're not thrown into it and like being faced with it in the moment. So like, life is good, business is good, why would you want to look for it? Or look at what makes you uncomfortable? And the what if the downsides of the what ifs? That's really hard. And one of the ways that I've learned to do that to to sell it essentially, isn't answering that question is looking at what is the value of being crisis ready? What does it do to the team, to the culture to the morale internally, what does it do with regards to trust. And just having that culture that you know, something minor goes wrong, but you have this culture that sees that as an opportunity to strengthen relationships and to evolve as an organization as a service provider, or, you know, a product creator. So all of these different facets of like, what it means to be crisis ready with the core values assigned with crisis ready are and how they lay out day to day, not just to effectively manage crisis when it happens, or even mitigate crisis from happening. But what's the value that it brings internally and externally to increase? We'll go back to the word brand equity of your organization, there's a massive competitive advantage in those answers.
Dan Seguin 16:35
Okay, now, a little while back, I attended your amazing, it is truly amazing, a 10 week course on honing your crisis communication and leadership skills, where you stated, if I recall, that you cannot put emotion over logic. What is the role and power of emotion within issue and crisis management.
Melissa Agnes 17:00
So you can't let's let's let's flip it, you can't put logic over emotion. So the crisis ready rule is, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So just to make that clear. Emotion plays a major role in any type of crisis for every person involved, whether you're the leadership team, whether you're, you know, the members of the team who are doing different roles within managing the crisis, whether you're an outside impacted party by the crisis, you don't have a motion, you don't have crisis for that emotion. Meanwhile, you cannot beat emotion with logic. So you're speaking to as a leader, as a communicator, in times of crisis, you stand up, you rise up, and you communicate with your stakeholders who are being affected by the crisis in one way or another. Those people who are affected by the crisis in one way or another, are highly emotional, right? They have emotion and probably very deep, very real, very deep seated emotion running through them. What happens to us as human beings is emotion then comes to the forefront we're emotional beings, as human beings, no matter how logical or cerebral or rational we believe ourselves to be, we're still emotional beings, because we're human beings is the nature of how and who we are at what happens is when those high intensity, quote unquote, negative emotions kick
5
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
into gear they come forefront, and they kind of they cloud judgment. I see it as the heart kind of coming up harping emotion coming up, and like putting this cloud around the brain, where you can't just speak or spew out logic, because the emotions are blocking it. It's clouding judgment, it's doing all kinds of things that a lot of leaders stand up and in those times, they just, they think that they just have to keep hammering out the truth and hammering out the facts that keep repeating the same things over in a very logical way. But they're missing the emotion, the emotional relatability, or the emotional, intelligent effect of it. And so in order to be able to communicate and lead effectively through crisis, you have to understand, know how to, first of all, understand emotion, the different types of emotions that that we have as an experience of being human. Understand how those like most emotions reside in our bodies, how they work, understand how to anticipate the emotions of your stakeholders, to the most extent possible. And then you have to be skilled in the ability to communicate in a way that puts the emotion first so that you can dissipate that cloud that is clouded like that's in front of the brain. I'm like doing this you can't see me when I'm like doing this visual in front of my face. But you want to dissipate that cloud that's blocking that's clouding judgment so that then you can speak to the rational, then you can speak to the logical. But trying to stand upon times of crisis when everybody is hyper emotional, and just spew out facts, you are going to miss the mark, you're not going to succeed the way that you can and should succeed.
Dan Seguin 20:11
Now Melissa, to ensure crisis readiness, how critical is it for companies to identify high risk scenarios? And pushing this further? Should we be looking at defining the different triggers and thresholds of impact?
Melissa Agnes 20:30
I would say so, first of all, identifying high risk scenarios is a part of the framework for crisis ready. So yes, so for anybody who may not understand that terminology, it's really what we're looking at is your most likely high impact types of events, situations that can put your organization into a crisis. We all have them as human beings, we all have them as organizations, as companies, as brands, whatever, however you want to word that. So yes, very, very, very important part of being crisis ready as you go through the motions. So let's say you identify just, you know, five high risk scenarios, the most likely high impact types of events to that you are susceptible or vulnerable to as an organization. Let's say you identify five. Go through the motions and part of being crisis ready is to go through the motions and becoming crisis ready for each of those five. Now, yes, absolutely. A sixth event can come out of nowhere and blindside you. But the whole going back to mindset skill set capability and culture is because you've gone through or asked. Once you've gone through the motions of truly becoming crisis ready for all of those five high risk scenarios. When the sixth one comes in, you know, turns around and hits you, or blindsides you and hitting you, you are so ready, your team is so skilled, you have everything that you need, and that it takes to be able to effectively respond to that sixth scenario, in the best timeframe as possible. So yes, identifying them doing the work to better understand them. And then in that answer the second part of that question, in that you will be looking at what would be indicators? So, so yes, triggers and indicators? And what are the thresholds of impact? So you're looking at a situation, say such a situation A, and you're saying 'At what point would situation crisis
6
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Scenario A be an issue for our organization? And at what point would it be a crisis?' You're really defining painting a picture of what those differences are? And then you're doing a deeper dive with the with the team and saying, Okay, what's the difference there? What are the criteria? What is the criteria that really made that customer past the threshold of issue to crisis? So you're trying to understand to the most extent possible, what are you know, what are the different aspects that make something a crisis for your organization, remembering that a crisis for one does not necessarily translate into a crisis for all.
Dan Seguin 23:07
Now, in times of major disruptions, like a power outage, or maybe even a cyber event, scanning your landscape is critical. Any recommendations on how companies should look at monitoring the social landscape and mainstream media?
Melissa Agnes 23:28
I think it should really go back to you, Dan. I think you guys do a phenomenal job at this. I mean, there's a lot to look at, and making sure that you have your baselines set up so that you know what a peak or valley looks like. You can detect it. I'd also say it's not just, you know, people go like, should we monitor every platform? Should we monitor, there's so many platforms, there's so many this, there's so many that, there's so many hashtags, so many, etc. It's really understanding your stakeholders and where you're where you have presence, right, and where that presence has impact because just because something - so one, just because something goes viral does not make it a crisis. That's not the criteria that makes it a crisis. That can be a viral issue, and not a viral crisis, right? Or a viral issue and not a crisis. And then too, just because something gets negative attention in one platform, if you don't have your course for stakeholder like the people who really mattered to the success and vitality of your business, on those platforms, and those people never hear about it, you might just have a whole bunch of haters that just aren't getting any traction. This is also about understanding what you're monitoring where, you're monitoring and why you're monitoring those, what in those squares. And then I think a third piece, I think that was two things. A third piece that I would add that is really understanding and I think this is a lot of where companies are getting it wrong right now - is understanding what is happening in the world that you transformations, the evolutions that are happening in the world and how they may or may not impact your relationship with your stakeholders, your relationship with your brand, the reputation of your organization, and to look at and be like, Oh, that's, you know, this conversation, this societal conversation or this Hot Topic doesn't apply to us to just look at something and be like, No, it doesn't apply to us without doing a deeper dive into how it might actually apply to you and how it might actually be important to the people who are important to your business is something that a lot of leaders, a lot of companies are missing the mark on right now.
Dan Seguin 25:39
Cool. Melissa, can you share with us some simple takeaways, for example, what are some of the biggest and most common mistakes an organization should avoid?
Melissa Agnes 25:52
7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
One of them is what we just said. Some other ones, I'll go to what we call at Crisis Ready Institute with call the CRP- the Crisis Response Penalty. So that term came out of my book, as I was writing my book, and what we're looking at there is, the longer you take to effectively respond, and I'll define what effective response is in a second. So the longer you take to effectively respond to a crisis, the more pressing credibility, you destroy the more ownership of the narrative you lose, and the more material impact you suffer. So that is the crisis response penalty, it is the penalties or the consequences of not responding properly. And effective response requires the right actions to be taken to actually fix remedy sold for you know, stop the bleeding, right the wrongs, etc, while you simultaneously communicate the way that you need to communicate and with whomever you need to be communicating with. And all of that has to happen. So actions and communications have to happen in the right timeline, and simultaneously. So if you falter on any one of those, then you're going to fail in your crisis management. And one of the biggest, most common mistakes to avoid so specifically to answer that it happened specifically to answer your question is the communication piece, because for the reasons that we've kind of already just highlighted, which are the vulnerability, the the fact that it's so uncomfortable, the fact that it's so vulnerable, the fact that people haven't been taught how to communicate with high EQ so that you can communicate through the emotions and actually resonate with the people you need to resonate with, so that they trust you and they follow your leadership? So yeah, I mean, we could go on and on and on, and on and on talking about the pitfalls to avoid. But even just looking at it as a framework of that crisis response penalty, what that means, what is involved in making sure you don't suffer a crisis response penalty, and making sure that your team has, again, the mindset, the skill set and the capability to not make those mistakes.
Dan Seguin 28:06
Cool. That's a great segue, Melissa. Before signing off here, I'm hoping you can maybe share what are some of the requirements for a strong and effective narrative during a crises, but also ways to ensure we maintain that consistent tone, and stay on message.
Melissa Agnes 28:29
I mean, we there's a formula that we use at Crisis Ready Institute, which is an it would take about, yeah, we could go into detail in it if we wanted to, but we teach it, it takes a while. But we really want to look at validate understanding emotions, validating those motions, relating to those emotions, and then coming in with your logic. And when you come in with your logic or your rationale, and you know, the directives and all the things that are very cerebral versus emotional, you want to make sure that you're having this balance of providing reassurance, providing hope, and having the courage to hold that space, that uncomfortable space, where the emotion sets. So as a framework, super high level, that's what you want to be making sure you're hitting, and I want to make sure that I answer your question properly. So strong narrative. So having that, having that framework will help to keep you addressing the things that are important to address that a lot of times leaders and communicators don't feel comfortable doing so they avoid them, which creates CRP Crisis Response penalty. And when you're doing that, you're doing that balance of risk providing reassurance, and hope and courage you're looking at. So just say, where you said I had to help maintain a consistent tone and stay on message. That's where you make sure that you're always checking in you're doing that you also want to make
8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
sure, so part of that is understanding what actually want what actually matters to people and making sure you're hitting those points, but also anticipating, anticipating the questions, anticipating the concerns, anticipating the fears and all of these, you know, things that we can anticipate if we take the time and put the attention to doing that, and making sure that you're getting ahead of the things that you can get ahead of, so that you're not always playing catch up.
Dan Seguin 30:27
Okay, very cool. Melissa, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Melissa Agnes 30:35
I'm ready. Let's do it.
Dan Seguin 30:37
Now, maybe you could start us off by sharing with our listeners. What are you reading right now?
Melissa Agnes 30:44
I actually just finished reading it. It's called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks and I highly, highly, highly recommend it.
Dan Seguin 30:50
Okay, next one, Melissa. Who is someone that you admire?
Melissa Agnes 30:55
I admire a lot of people. My significant other I admire him greatly. People on my team I admire greatly. There's a lot of people that I admire.
Dan Seguin 31:05
Okay. What is your favorite movie or show?
Melissa Agnes 31:09
On right now? Oh, man. I mean, I would say like Friends to me is like my all time favorite. What have we watched recently? We watched - I'm so bad with names and remembering this stuff. Silo was good. Shrinking was good. There was one recently there's one with Amanda Seyfried that I really enjoyed. I was sick last week and I like binged it over the weekend because I just got better. That one was called the Crowded Room. Yeah, I think there's a bunch of good things out right now. Oh, we just watched over the weekend we watched it's a movie about dogs, what's it called - Strays! With their like the voices of ...I don't know but strays, however, I will say that it looks like it's it's family friendly. But it is not. Don't let your kids watch it. It's very adult friendly. But it's hilarious.
Dan Seguin 32:03
Okay, next one, aside from necessities. What one thing could you not go without in a day?
9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Melissa Agnes 32:12
Okay this sounds so corny but emotional connection with my significant other. We travel a lot so I think checking in with each other, like just tapping in and making sure that - he's different from me in that I kind of get my good mornings and my good nights and things like that. I don't think I could go without those.
Dan Seguin 32:30
Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now.
Melissa Agnes 32:35
Oh, exciting, and that frustrated me. Um, the thing that I'm working on right now I'm working on, you know, I'm calling it my quote unquote, next big thing. That's really exciting to me. So new content, new things that are coming, that I think will, again, stemmed from a frustration in the world. And we touched a little bit on some of it during this conversation, but the, um, it'll be my next book. It'll be my next TEDx Talk. It'll be a whole bunch of things. And that's, that's kind of keeping me fired up. I'm very excited about that.
Dan Seguin 33:06
Well, Melissa, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, your organization, how can they connect?
Melissa Agnes 33:19
Melissa Agnes, I'm on social. I'm primarily on LinkedIn, definitely. IG definitely. That's pretty much it. Where I'm like, actually active and then crisisreadyinstitute.com Or just crisisready.com. You can find all kinds of stuff there as well as to connect with me.
Dan Seguin 33:36
Again, Melissa, thank you very much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Melissa Agnes 33:41
I did. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 33:44
Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
As demand for electricity increases, the need to diversify supply is also on the rise. In Episode 120 of thinkenergy, Lesley Gallinger, CEO of Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), unpacks what’s driving the transformation of the province’s power system, the potential opportunities, and the obstacles standing in the way. From hydrogen innovation to resource procurement, listen in to learn how the IESO is helping Ontario navigate to a cleaner, reliable, and affordable energy future.
Related links
● Lesley Gallinger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-gallinger-784a194/
● Lesley Gallinger on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lmgallinger
● IESO website: https://www.ieso.ca/
● Hydrogen Innovation Fund: https://www.ieso.ca/en/Get-Involved/Innovation/Hydrogen-Innovation-Fund/Overview
● Powering Ontario’s Growth report: https://www.ontario.ca/page/powering-ontarios-growth
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod_________________________________________________________
TRANSCRIPT:
Daniel Seguin:
This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. In 1902 electrical pioneers met for the first time in Berlin now Kitchener, Ontario to discuss wiring Ontario's customers together to form a provincial electricity grid. Ontario's electricity grid, like all grids around the world was designed as a one way street, to generate, transmit, and deliver electricity to customers. It's no secret that nowadays new technologies are shaking up the way we produce and use electricity. Back then, these pioneers likely couldn't have imagined that the electricity grid would become a two way interactive system capable of supporting variable supply from renewable energy or accommodating electric vehicles, energy storage, home generation, and a host of other innovations. As the demand for electricity grows, Ontario's supply is diversifying, evolving and transforming at a speed we haven't seen in this industry. One thing is for certain, it's going to be one electrifying ride. On today's show, we're diving into the heart of Ontario's power system and shining a light on the organization that manages the province electricity sector. As we mentioned before, we are at the forefront of a power revolution. Of course, we need someone driving the ship to provide guidance on how Ontario's power system adopts a cleaner and more interactive machine. So here's today's big question. What is driving the transformation of Ontario's power system? And what are the potential opportunities and challenges? Joining us today is Lesley Gallinger, president and chief executive officer of the Ontario Independent Electricity System Operator. Under her leadership, the IESO oversees the safe and reliable operation of Ontario's bulk electricity system, ensuring affordable electricity is available when and where people need it. Lesley, so great to have you join us today. Now, your knowledge and experience of the electricity industry is extensive. Can you talk to us a bit about what drew you to a career in energy sector? And what led you to your current role?
Lesley Gallinger:Well, thank you for that, Dan. It's great to be here, and I have spent the majority of my career in the electricity sector after spending the first third in a different sector. I certainly benefited from working all across North America and in Europe, for some very sophisticated multinational organizations with very talented team members. However, I always had this interest in electricity. And just for a funny story, my first grade school in Ontario was Sir Adam Beck, so I wonder if that was a bit of foreshadowing. But in reality, I had friends and colleagues in the sector who spoke quite passionately about the impact they were making with the work they were doing. And I was attracted to that. And sure I had some skills that I thought would be transferable. And the role that I have now embodies all of that, as we at the IESO are helping inform and execute on energy policy on electricity policy, specifically that will support Ontarians as we transition to an electrified and decarbonized future. I honestly couldn't imagine a better role to be in at this moment.
Daniel Seguin:
At a high level Lesley, what is the Independent Electricity System Operator and what is it responsible for with respect to Ontario's power system?
Lesley Gallinger:
The IESO works at the heart of Ontario's electricity system, ensuring that electricity is available where and when it is needed. We monitor Ontario's demand in real time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, balancing supply and demand and directing the flow of electricity across the provinces transmission lines. We also oversee the electricity market, which includes putting mechanisms in place to increase competition and ensure cost effective supply. And finally, we also plan the electricity system by working with indigenous communities, with municipalities and stakeholders to forecast demand and secure enough supply to meet Ontario's needs as far as 20 years out.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, very interesting. Finally, looking forward to your answer on this one here. Can you walk us through how you oversee and manage the electricity systems such as determining the type of supply required to meet demand for electricity in the province? In the short, medium, and long term?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, thanks that that is a good and big meaty question. So we've spoken a lot about where we are now. So after having years of surplus electricity, Ontario is entering a period of growing electricity needs and demand is expected to increase by an average of 2% annually over the next two decades due to electrification and economic growth in various sectors, including residential, agricultural, and mining. One way that the IESO helps meet these growing needs is by securing new supply. In the short term, we have the annual capacity auction that we conduct that allows existing resources to compete. This is cost effective and allows the IESO to adapt to changing supply and demand conditions on a year by year basis. We also look at three to five year commitments for other resources, this timeframe provides more certainty while ensuring it doesn't get locked into commitments that no longer reflect those changing needs of electrification. And finally, in the long term, we look 20 years out to secure resources that require significant upfront investments in order to give suppliers the confidence they need to make those investments. So it's a bit of a layer cake with those three timeframes.
Daniel Seguin:
Great segway here. Okay. What do you see as the IESOs role in the future planning of the evolving electricity grid and your role in supporting the changing energy needs of the decarbonized economy?
Lesley Gallinger:
As Ontario's electricity system planner, we certainly have the long view. Our role is to ensure that Ontario's current and future energy needs are met both reliably and affordably. Our corporate strategy calls out three main ways in which we do this we ensure system reliability while supporting cost effectiveness, we're driving business transformation within the IESO and also driving and guiding the sector's future by working closely with indigenous communities, municipalities and stakeholders. On the decarbonisation front, our main role is to enable technologies that will help us decarbonize. There's lots of emerging energy resources that can help us build a zero emissions electricity grid and the IESO ensures that these resources can all participate in Ontario's electricity system and markets. We're procuring new resources under our flexible resource adequacy framework. We recently announced the procurement of over 800 megawatts of energy storage, which is the largest energy procurement energy storage procurement in Canada to date, that combined with 250 megawatts of the Oneida battery storage project, the IESO, with these projects, is taking steps to integrate this valuable and flexible resource. And in last December's publication of pathways to decarbonisation, we explored ways in which Ontario can move forward to an emissions-free electricity system. The Ministry of Energy consulted on our pathways report, and recently on July 10, very recently, announced a series of actions in its report powering Ontario's growth. And those actions include collaborating with Bruce Power and Ontario Power Generation on pre development work to to consider potential new nuclear generation reporting back on the design of our second long term procurement, which will acquire new non-emitting resources supporting a Ministry of Energy consultation on a post 2024 Conservation Demand Management Framework and assessing additional transmission needs to support new and growing generation and demand in the province. So quite a list of workforce ahead that we're very excited to undertake. And as our system operator for the province, we're certainly at the center of all of this. There'll be a continuing need for coordination with the broader electricity sector in order to plan an orderly transition to a decarbonize grid, there will also be an increased need to revisit how we plan the electricity system. The IESO is looking forward to working with the electrification and energy transition panel to identify ways to adapt and evolve existing frameworks in order to increase transparency and ensure communities and stakeholders are more aware of what we're doing and why. This work, the work of the EETP also takes a broader economy wide view, which reflects how the electricity sector is becoming increasingly dependent on other sectors like industry and transportation. So you know, in short, a lot of work and some very exciting work ahead.
Daniel Seguin:
Follow up question here for you. Now, some Ontarians are concerned about moving to variable renewable energy sources like wind and solar, while others are concerned about continuing use of natural gas. What have you uncovered in your work about these issues? And what would you like residents of Ontario to know?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah great question Dan, every type of generation has its own strengths and drawbacks based on its unique attributes, which is why Ontario maintains a diverse supply mix that can adapt to changing system conditions quickly. Renewables such as wind and solar are not emitting when they generate electricity, but they're also intermittent, meaning how much electricity they produce can change rapidly in response to weather conditions. And to help with this, the IESO is looking into hybrid facilities that combine renewables with energy storage. By 2026 we'll also have about 1300 megawatts of energy storage on the grid, which will help more efficiently integrate renewables. We're also going to start designing our second long term procurement which will focus on acquiring non-emitting resources and we'll be engaging on this with stakeholders and communities as we go. Natural gas, for example, has the main advantage that it can respond quickly to change in demand and system conditions, making it an important resource for us as we seek to maintain reliability. Ontario's demand fluctuates constantly throughout the day, and having access to natural gas can help us respond to sudden changes and maintain a balance across the system. It's also very important to recognize and something I'd like to emphasize for your listeners that overall emissions from Ontario's electricity sector are extremely low, the sector accounts for about 3% of the provinces total emissions. While this may increase slightly in the future, the continued existence of natural gas on the grid is an important resource to help us transition and it'll enable the near term electrification of other sectors which in total will drive down Ontario's emissions.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay Lesley, how will the efficiency upgrades at existing natural gas facilities contribute to meeting the growing demand? And what is the plan for these facilities as emerging technologies mature and the reliance on natural gas decreases?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yes, and as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, Ontario's definitely entering a period of increased demand and so with many existing contracts expiring, and nuclear plants undergoing refurbishment or scheduled to be decommissioned, coupled with increasing electrification of other sectors, the province is going to need more power in the immediate future and the natural gas expansions can help with this. In our pathways to decarbonisation report, we looked at the questions the minister posed to us, we looked at a moratorium scenario that would phase out natural gas over time as newer non-emitting resources come online, and in the report we concluded that we could be less reliant on natural gas in Ontario by the year 2035 and completely phased out by 2050. Efforts were made to align this report with clean electricity regulations, and that recognizes that the contribution of natural gas may be restricted over time, but for the meantime, we have you know, the important transitional resource needs, the natural gas fulfills.
Daniel Seguin:Okay. In May of 2023, the IESO announced that it was moving forward with the largest procurement of energy storage in Canada. What can you tell us about these storage projects and their benefits?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, this was a very exciting announcement for us the energy storage projects we announced in May were for grid connected battery storage systems, which will be an important step towards the transition to a non-emitting supply mix, and will support grid reliability. The procurement was the culmination of the work we've done over the last several years to understand the potential of battery storage to provide supply and reliability services to the grid. The biggest advantage of energy storage is that it can charge during off peak hours when the provincial electricity demand is low and then inject energy back into the grid during peaks when demand is high, which makes it very flexible and a resource that can help us optimize the efficiency of other resource types. And we also see battery storage as a key enabler of decarbonisation. It will help us to integrate more renewables such as wind and solar onto the system, but also get more out of our current nuclear and hydro fleet. By charging during these off peak hours energy storage can use up any surplus green power from Ontario's existing nuclear and hydro facilities.
Daniel Seguin:
Now, how does this procurement help ensure system reliability during nuclear refurbishment and support the overall energy transformation in Ontario,
Lesley Gallinger:
The procurement will help with the transition away from natural gas and it's certainly about maintaining reliability at a time when multiple refurbishments are underway. In particular, the Pickering generating station is scheduled to go out of service mid decade and so right around that time, those energy storage projects are expected to be online. Certainly the timelines of the procurements were aligned understanding what the system conditions would be at that time,
Lesley, I'd like to dig into your fascinating pathway to decarbonisation report just a bit. Ontario has one of the cleanest electricity system in North America, contributing only 3% to the provinces greenhouse gas emissions, that doesn't sound like a lot. So why is it important to eliminate the remaining 3% of emissions from the grid?
Yeah, another another really interesting question and the subject of a lot of conversations we've been having we know that electricity use is going to increase in the coming years driven by an economic growth and electrification across other sectors. Transportation is becoming increasingly electrified as our industrial processes such as steel smelting, and as the pace of electrification speeds up the efforts and investments being made by businesses and households to electrify will increase society's reliance on electricity as a fuel and electricity is only as clean as the resources we use to make it. So that 3%, if we don't tackle that remaining 3%, we will see an increased reliance on less clean generating sources. I mean tackling climate change is certainly an economy wide effort and clean electricity is a fundamental enabler of those climate change solutions.Daniel Seguin:
Thanks for that, Lesley. Now, I have a follow up question for you. The IESO presents two scenarios to address decarbonisation, what are they and what key assumptions and drivers were discovered with your analysis?
Lesley Gallinger:
So our first scenario was the moratorium scenario where the IESO so looked at restricting the procurement of additional natural gas. And this assessment showed that a moratorium would be feasible beginning in 2027, and that Ontario could be less reliant on natural gas by 2035. At that point, the system would not require additional emitting generation to ensure reliability provided that other forms of non-emitting supply could be added to the system in time to keep pace with demand growth. The second scenario is our pathways to decarbonisation scenario, this scenario assumed aggressive electrification of the transportation and industrial sectors, and that attaining a completely decarbonized grid would be possible by 2050, while balancing reliability and costs, so you can see a lot of variables came to play in that second scenario.
Daniel Seguin:
Perfect. Thanks, Lesley. Now, what are your thoughts on where Canada stands on its road to meet the 2035 and 2050 targets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think that's, you know, that's what we're all looking towards and bridging the work of today with the needs of a futurized decarbonized world will be challenging and complex, a collaborative approach across all sectors of the economy will certainly be necessary to achieve this. From Ontario's perspective, we're in a strong starting position, our electricity system is already close to 90% emissions free, most of the generation coming from Hydro and Nuclear resources. And in our pathways report, we identify that for Ontario, at least, a moratorium on natural gas could be possible by 2035, and a fully decarbonized electricity system by 2050 provided that new non-emitting supplies and surfaces online. So we certainly had those goals in mind for Ontario as we created that pathway so decarbonisation work.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, in your opinion, what are the biggest challenges facing the electricity industry in Canada today? And what are the biggest opportunities?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I anchor on the word orderly because I've used it a lot. The biggest challenge I see is managing the significant transformation that's underway. And doing it in an orderly fashion, electrification is requiring the electricity system to expand and produce more power, while decarbonisation puts pressure on the grid to rely more heavily on low carbon resources, many of which are still in their early days of development. Across the country. Every province is faced with similar challenges. The recently formed Canadian Electricity Advisory Council will provide advice to the Minister of natural resources on ways to accelerate investment and promote sustainable, affordable, reliable electricity systems. And I have the privilege of being on this panel. It's exciting work with colleagues from across the country, many of whom come from provinces in very different stages of decarbonisation. We're sharing best practices and all working towards similar goals. For Ontario, we're entering a period of emerging electricity system needs starting in the 2020s. These electricity and energy capacity needs will continue through to 2040. So demand is expected to increase at nearly 2% per year as I mentioned earlier. All of this presents incredible opportunities for Ontario's communities, new technologies are creating economic growth opportunities and setting the stage for Ontario to build a highly skilled workforce to push to decarbonize will have significant impacts on economy wide emissions reductions, and building the electricity grid of the future also presents opportunities to collaborate and strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and municipalities. Back to my first comment, the pace of this change is a vital consideration. We need to strike the right balance between decarbonizing the grid, while it's still ensuring electricity and energy remain reliable and affordable. If we go too fast, the cost may impede electrification, if we go too slow, we're not going to have the supply available as demand increases. So it really is about thinking this through orderly and it's an all hands on deck challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, moving along here, maybe you could walk us through some of the scope for what's required to decarbonize Ontario's electricity system. What does an achievable pathway to net zero look like?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, that's the work of the IESO on a regular basis. I mean, I can't underscore my last point enough, which is that it's vital that the transition occurs in an orderly manner, we absolutely need to act but we need to act in a carefully managed way that balances decarbonisation with reliability and affordability. Large infrastructure such as hydroelectric plants and nuclear facilities and transmission lines can take 15-10 years, sometimes more to build, significant investments in capital and materials and labor will be required to build out a fully decarbonized system. And one study I read estimated that 14,000 strong labor force participants, that are that are currently working on our electricity infrastructure would need to increase by a factor of six. So you know, that's a huge investment in training and getting people ready to build all the things we need to build. Indigenous communities and municipalities also have a voice in how and where new infrastructure is located. So meaningful and transparent discussions about siting and land use will be needed. And while many technologies will be needed to decarbonize the grid already known, some are not known and not commercialized yet. And so those are low carbon fuels small modular reactors still in development. At this point, it'll be important for Ontario and for Canada to continue to invest in these and other other innovations as well in supporting the pathway. We need energy plans to be approved and new infrastructure needs to be planned, permitted and cited. Regulatory and approval processes such as the environmental impact assessments need to be resourced, appropriately and streamlined to enable all of these builds to happen. We also need the supporting transmission infrastructure to be planned and built on on similar timelines as demand growth and as new supply comes online and underlying all of that we need to carefully manage the costs to ensure the actual impact on total energy costs is affordable, and that they do not diverge significantly, Ontario from those of our neighbors in Manitoba and Quebec and in the US. So lots of again, lots of facets, but work that can be itemized now and definitely plan forward.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. What are some of IESO's, no regret actions that can be taken to help meet those growing demands?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think the minister anchored on some of those in his Powering Ontario's Growth report, Ontario can certainly continue to acquire new non-emitting resources and incentivize energy efficiency through our Save on Energy programs. sector partners can also begin planning and citing for new potential projects, partnerships between municipal, provincial and federal governments will also be key and we need to continue to develop those relationships now, while we're also revisiting the regulatory frameworks that may hinder and prevent progress. Last but certainly not least, we must track our progress in an open and transparent way. There's no one way we can say decarbonisation happens. It's a gradual change that will take place over many years, and will require lots of little steps to make progress. And certainly the government's recent response to our reports puts in motion some of those actions including asking us at the IESO to explore opportunities to enable future generation in northern Ontario and reducing the reliance on natural gas generation in the GTA. The ministry has also asked the IESO to begin consultations on a competitive transmitter selection framework for future lines with electricity supply expected to continue to grow over the next 20 to 30 years, you know, that's what we're doing now, you know, in terms of planning, but we're also we're also working to secure new capacity and leveraging our existing assets. So that is through our very thorough resource adequacy framework, which was put in place that outlines our strategy to get that new supply in the short, medium and long term. A key piece of this is competitive procurements and the processes that have been used to date including the annual capacity auction, and but you know, there's also work being done that we're leveraging by our energy efficiency and demand response programs that that get back to what individuals and what individual businesses can do to support decarbonisation. We've got market renewal going on. We've got medium and long term procurements. So lots of action underway. All of them no regret that can that can be continued to to meet this demand.
Daniel Seguin:
Now Lesley, with electricity supply expected to grow the next 20 to 30 years, what is the IESO doing to secure new capacity? And how is it leveraging existing assets?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, great question. So in terms of generating new supply or acquiring new supply, that's really our resource adequacy framework. It outlines, you know, the work we're doing both in the short, medium and long term to competitively procure new resources. We've recently done the procurements for batteries and for natural gas, upgrades and expansions. We'll be launching our next procurement very shortly and designing the one after that. So it's that layer cake approach that I mentioned. We've also, you know, can can anchor back in the strides we've taken in the current procurements to secure we've had great resources come to bear and participate in those procurements, so we're very hopeful that future procurements will also be very successful
Daniel Seguin:
Now hoping you can help demystify this next one for our listeners. What is the Hydrogen Energy fund? What is special about hydrogen, and how do you think it will support Ontario's reliability needs and decarbonisation?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, it is, it is a new word and a new way of thinking for for a lot of folks. So let me dig into that. But the goal of our hydrogen Innovation Fund is to investigate, evaluate and demonstrate how low carbon hydrogen technologies could be integrated into the grid. The new program will enable the IESO to test the ability of hydrogen to support grid reliability and affordability, but also the role it can play in broader decarbonisation. Hydrogen has the potential to reduce electricity sector emissions, but it could also be used as a replacement fuel in other more fossil fuel intensive industries such as transportation. From the electricity sector's perspective, hydrogen has the potential to provide several essential services, it can smooth the output from renewable resources such as wind and solar, it can be blended into natural gas to reduce total emissions and could be used to offer several services such as peaking generation, grid efficiency and storage. But all that being said, it's not an ultimate solution. While hydrogen can be used to generate electricity producing it also requires electricity. So the integration of hydrogen like all new resources will require a balanced approach, one that can make more efficient use of our existing electricity system assets which the Hydrogen Innovation Fund will help with the interest in the fund has been very high. The IESO has received more than 25 applications. The projects are in flight now are undergoing review right now. And we should be in a position to announce the successful projects in September.
Daniel Seguin:
Lesley. Let's now look globally, what are other countries doing right, that Canada should consider emulating or even adopting?
Lesley Gallinger:
Yeah, I think I think this is, you know, very important. We very much focused on on Canada or in you know, in our case, Ontario for answers. And the IESO is just one of many electricity system operators worldwide. And I certainly am always keeping an eye on what other countries are doing. However, every jurisdiction has unique circumstances, which include laws, regulations, geography and politics that can sometimes make comparisons difficult. In North America, specifically, Ontario is a leader in many ways and the pathways report is a very well thought out approach. And so I think that's an area of interests that others have looked to us, that, coupled with our experience of phasing out coal fired generation, we're in a good position really to set examples for other jurisdictions looking to do similar work, and certainly in conversations with my IESO counterparts around North America, we're having robust discussions and learning from each other.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, looking to the future of this industry and Canada's approach, what is giving you hope?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, electricity is being looked at to support decarbonisation of other sectors and to support economic growth. That's hugely exciting to see the broad impact our industry is having on society. And as we engage with broader audience, the collaborative spirit across the sector, across the province and across the country, we're seeing... certainly gives me hope that Ontario can achieve decarbonisation through an orderly transition that balances that decarbonisation desire with reliability and affordability that are at the heart of our mandate.
Daniel Seguin:
Lastly, Lesley, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Lesley Gallinger:
I'm ready. These were some of the more difficult questions, Dan. So I'm certainly ready for these.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I just finished reading a really great book, how big things get done by bent flyvbjerg. And I think it's making the rounds really good book on large projects, and what we can learn from past failures in large projects, which will be important information for Ontario.
Daniel Seguin:
Cool. Thanks for sharing. Now, what would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I have a very, very small boat, and I have yet to name it. But now now that you've got me thinking about that the wheels are turning. At the moment, it's new, so I'm just learning to park it. And when I say park, my my partner rolls his eyes and says "you mean dock" and I say no, Park. So next time we speak Dan, I'll have a name for the boat.
Daniel Seguin:
Very good. Who is someone that you truly admire?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think this was the most difficult question. There are people I admire in many aspects of my life. And I certainly wouldn't want to single out anyone or miss out on another person. But if I can be a bit general, given the role I'm in, I'd have to say it's the people who have the vision and foresight to see what's coming in the future and to plan and build those large projects and large infrastructure investments needed to get there.
Daniel Seguin:
What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Lesley Gallinger:
Well, I am a lover of being outdoors, so perhaps for me it would be on the morning after a deep snowfall on the trails around my friend's property being the first snow shoes out on the trails on a Sunday morning. It's so quiet and so beautiful and it just feels magical.
Daniel Seguin:
Now what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Lesley Gallinger:
I think for me, it would be helping my mom stay connected to to our community as as an elderly widow in her own home. It was a lot of one on one contact for me with her and making sure that I could connect her to a broader social network. So she didn't feel so isolated. And I think that was, you know, well worth the challenge. But it was a it was a challenge.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay. We've all been watching just a little bit more TV or even Netflix lately. What is your favorite show?
Lesley Gallinger:
So I spend very little time watching TV and when I do or, or Netflix, and when I do, it's mostly documentaries. I want to give a call out for a course I'm taking right now online, which is the closest thing to TV, I'm taking the University of Alberta's indigenous Canada course, which has been for me tremendous value in helping me understand indigenous worldviews and perspectives. But I did just watch a Netflix series on the Tour de France, which was a fascinating look at the teams and tactics as well as the effort that the athletes endure over that 21 days.
Daniel Seguin:
Okay, cool. Now, lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?
Lesley Gallinger:
Oh, my goodness. My teams have heard me use this before everything everywhere all at once. We have an opportunity as an industry right now to guide generational change and to have an impact on the environment and the economy far past our working lives. And that is incredibly exciting.
Daniel Seguin:
Well, Lesley, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?
Lesley Gallinger:
Thank you. Yes. www.ieso.ca. Our website has a wealth of resources to help listeners become more energy literate. And to understand the work we do. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Lesley Gallinger.
Daniel Seguin:
Again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Lesley Gallinger:
I did! The questions were tough, but very interesting and they certainly got to the heart of the work that we do at the IESO. Thank you, Dan, for for your interest in our work and for asking those questions that allow me to speak and highlight the work of the incredible professionals that work at the IESO.
Daniel Seguin:
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guest or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
As Canadians depend more and more on an electrified grid, safety and reliability are at the core of the conversation. How are we improving the grid’s resilience to climate change and extreme weather? How are we accommodating increased capacity as more people electrify their lives? In episode 99 of thinkenergy, we discuss future proofing the grid and what exactly that means with Guillaume Paradis, Chief Electricity Distribution Officer at Hydro Ottawa.
Related links
Guillaume Paradis, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721/
Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety
Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod________________________________________________________________________________
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.
Dan Seguin 00:28
Hey, everyone, welcome back. There's a great analogy I read recently that compared future proofing the electricity grid to Wayne Gretzky. And since this is our 99th episode, woohoo, it just seems fitting that we make our reference to the great one. What made Wayne Gretzky, the greatest hockey player of all time, was not his speed or the uncanny accuracy of his shots, but rather his ability to predict where the puck was going to be an instant before it arrived. utilities like Wayne Gretzky have the ability to anticipate events and predict patterns that can make them more prepared for extreme weather events as a utility, planning and predicting the future is part of our DNA. And as we all prepare to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets set by the feds, provincial and municipal governments, we are seeing a lot of future planning happening to make the electricity system as clean and as resilient as possible. And part of that is predicting what the future will look like, from what energy sources will power our electricity supply, but also what kind of challenges like electrification and threats like extreme weather we will face? So here's today's big question. How can utilities earn customer confidence as they transition towards an electrified grid that can also withstand unpredictable weather to safely and reliably deliver energy. Today's guest is Guillaume packaging. As the chief electricity distribution officer at hydro Ottawa, Guillaume is responsible for planning, design, operations, constructions and maintenance of our nation's capitol electrical power distribution system. In his role, Guillaume leads a team directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to hydro Ottawa customers. Guillaume has over a decade of industry experience in progressive leadership roles ranging from research program management, to distribution planning, asset management, design, and construction. Thanks for joining us on the show today.
Guillaume Paradis 02:56
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 02:57
You've been in the industry for more than a decade now, what's been the biggest change or shift you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 03:05
So what I'd say has been the most significant change over that time period is that we've actually gone from talking about very exciting things and future focus opportunities. So we've gone from talking about them to actually getting to implement them. So some of the things that were on the horizon 10 years ago, and 15 years ago, in fact, were related to electric vehicles, the proliferation of battery storage technology, the development of the smart grid, and over that period of time, through those conversations, we've actually been able to shift the industry to a place where we're actually delivering on some of those promises. So that's very, very exciting. It's a massive challenge for everyone involved, but unlocks a whole series of possibilities, that when I started my career, we were only talking and thinking about,
Dan Seguin 04:08
Okay, what does future proofing the electricity grid really mean? What kind of plans and predictions are you making to help the grid withstand climate change?
Guillaume Paradis 04:20
So future proofing is an interesting one, because, you know, ultimately, all of your success depends on your ability to forecast and forecasting. Currently, with the changing landscape with the pace at which policy is being updated, refreshed, and modified, it is quite challenging. So we've gone from an environment where you could look at decade's worth of data, use a little bit of economic information, and forecasts and combine those things into what would turn out to be a pretty useful and fairly accurate prediction of what your system would be required to deliver. So we've gone from that to an environment where in a matter of, you know, sometimes months, you know, the underlying basis for your predictions as totally been changed. And you have, or you're having to revisit your assumptions from, frankly, a quarter to the next. So, future proofing right now, in my mind is about, you know, keeping an eye out for what's coming. So being able to anticipate what's ahead, being able to stay abreast of all the trends, making, what I would call incremental adjustments to our practices today that ensure that if, and when the future, you know, more specifically crystallizes, we can take advantage of the opportunities, and we're not having to redo too much work, but also without betting too much on one outcome, where we may not have the certainty of what's ahead. So, you know, that's true when you look at the full landscape. And specifically, when we're looking at the predictions around climate change, it's about at a minimum, being very responsive to the more recent events. So using that to update your predictions. And recently, unfortunately, with respect to climate, you know, we've seen what would have been deemed, you know, one in 1000, or one in 100 year events occur at a frequency that far exceeds, you know, what predictions would have called for. And we have to recognize that as being the new trend, despite not having the benefit of 100 years of events in that new paradigm that we find ourselves in. So, you know, from a climate standpoint, I think we have to be a little farther out, and expect that recent data points actually represent the new reality, as opposed to relying on the longer trend that we would like to count on, which is 50-100 years or beyond. So from a climate standpoint, at this point, our assumption is, you know, what's happened recently looks a lot more like what's expected to happen to us in the next few years. And in fact, you know, we're looking to build a little bit of contingency or buffer into our predictions, assuming that it might get a little worse.
Dan Seguin 07:40
Now, why does future proofing the grid go hand in hand with electrification, and clean energy,
Guillaume Paradis 07:48
So electrification and clean energy come down to, in my view, increasing our society's resilience, resilience and dependence on our electricity infrastructure. So, you know, for many years now, many decades, the electricity system has been the underpinning of our modern society. But even more so as we move more of our energy use to the electricity system, it becomes paramount ensure that the infrastructure we have is able to support and maintain with a high level of redundancy, you know, that modern lifestyle where more of what we do is electrified, clean energy, in its various forms, you know, supports our ability to electrify more of our activities, but also from a planning standpoint introduces a bit of a new challenge, in terms of intermittency. And so our ability to have an underlying asset base distribution system or transmission system that is highly redundant and highly secure, to enable and support the use of renewable energy is critical. And so that's where future proofing is really about, you know, ensuring that the bet we're making as a society, which is electrifying to improve the outlook on our climate change objectives, is actually possible going forward.
Dan Seguin 09:29
Don't I've got a follow up question here. What does a self healing grid mean?
Guillaume Paradis 09:35
You know, in a nutshell, self healing is about leveraging technology and automation to ensure that when an issue occurs, whether it be a failure, or an externality, like a tree, you know, impacting our infrastructure. We use that technology that automation to most rapidly re structure and rearrange our distribution system to minimize the impact of those events. So it's really about leveraging automation, you know, rapid communication, we now have access to using the computational power that is also available to us. And letting those tools make the preliminary decision on how best to restore power, before there's a human interaction that comes in to take care of the final steps. So really, if you think about it, and how far we've come in the last 20 years with computer power and communication tools, it's really bringing the latest and the best of those technologies to bear on how we restore power to our customers.
Dan Seguin 10:45
After the May Dereocho, a lot of people were asking why utilities don't bury all overhead lines? What's your answer to that Gil?
Guillaume Paradis 10:55
So yeah, it comes up every time there's a storm, and it's, it's perfectly understandable. And I think there's a couple things that come into play when we think about, you know, what is best to deliver power to our customers. Certainly, you know, we've been talking about redundancy in an underground system, when it comes to certain types of climate related events, like large storms, or wind storms, you know, introduce a certain level of security that exceeds what is possible with an overhead system. But the other very important element as we think about electrification going forward, is the element of cost, and affordability of power. And, you know, just from a comparison standpoint, the basic math, you know, when evaluating underground alternatives to overhead systems, is about a 10 to one cost ratio. So certainly when we look at, you know, where best to invest dollars, and how best to bring power to communities, that cost component is factored in and becomes a consideration, particularly when you look at lower density areas, or farther away areas from production centers, it becomes a costly proposition. Now, what we're looking to do going forward is we see undergrounding as a strategic tool in improving our climate resilience. And so we're going to look at certain corridors, perhaps, or certain targeted investments to underground infrastructure, to try to get the most value possible for our customers as we plan for, you know, an elevated climate challenge in the future. But that consideration around costs is significant. And finally, what I'd say as well is, you know, your ability to restore power when there's a problem with overhead infrastructure is far greater than it is when an underground system fails. And so in addition to that cost component, the ability to restore power quickly, when there is a problem is higher with an overhead infrastructure.
Dan Seguin 13:10
At the beginning of the last century, it was the Industrial Revolution. This century is shaping up to be an electrical revolution. How confident are you about the grid's capacity, as more and more people electrify their cars, and eventually, their homes?
Guillaume Paradis 13:32
So how confident I would say very confident. And that's not to minimize the scale of the challenge ahead of us. You're correct, we're now proposing to essentially, you know, completely shift the dynamics around electricity. In a matter of, you know, I would like to say decades, but it's essentially a decade at this point. And so it's a very complex challenge from an engineering standpoint and a planning standpoint. But I've seen how the conversation and the thinking has evolved over the last 1015 years in our industry, I've seen the technologies that are being brought forward as tools to be leveraged to enable that transition to a more electric future. And, you know, the significant load growth, I will come with that. So I think we have the tools, we need to maintain a high level of awareness and adaptability in, you know, facing what's ahead of us. We can't fall back on old habits or, you know, make excuses when we have solutions we want to implement and we know we need to implement to enable that electrified future, but I think We will get there. And I've seen all sorts of signs pointing to that possibility. And it's going to come down to once again making the most of all the tools we have. So we talked about technology earlier, we're going to have to leverage technology to manage how electric vehicles are charged, and when, and in what parts of the city and how best to leverage the existing infrastructure to do that, because we know, we can just build or double the size of our electric infrastructure to accommodate that growth. So we're going to have to be more refined, we're going to have to leverage all the tools available to us, including distributed energy resources, but I think we will get there and I like what I'm seeing from all the stakeholders across the industry, and thinking and adapting to that new reality.
Dan Seguin 15:50
Here's another follow up question. What would you say to those who are worried about reliability and power outages?
Guillaume Paradis 15:59
I would say that's our main focus. And so it's completely normal to have some concerns in a context where more of our lives become dependent on the electricity system. And but, you know, on our end, from an electricity industry standpoint, reliability has been forever, essentially, you know, the focus of our energy and our attention. And now we all understand that, we need to elevate the reliability standards that have been developed over the last decades. And so we have, once again, certain tools we can leverage to do that. So again, not to say it's not significant, we have to go from, you know, what has been a 99.998% availability to something even closer to 100%. Because we know our customers depend on our infrastructure more than ever. But we're working on that. And we're going to bring in some tools that will help us support that outcome. And certainly, you know, we talked about automation, but things like battery storage, becoming more prevalent, you know, within the landscape, including the batteries of electric vehicles, over time, will be one of those examples of new tools that we can try to leverage to deliver, deliver that elevated level of reliability that our customers will expect in our society will need.
Dan Seguin 17:33
Okay, thanks. Yeah, there will be power outages, we can't avoid that. Knowing that, what are some of the things customers could or should consider doing to be better prepared?
Guillaume Paradis 17:46
Yeah. So that's another interesting question with respect to what we've seen in the last few years. So even just through some of the climate related events that we've experienced, you know, longer duration outages related to tornadoes are due to Russia more recently, one of the basic things that everyone is encouraged to do and we try to promote is, you know, developing a plan for the household, right, or for, you know, your business if you're a commercial customer, but think about what things look like, from your perspective. In the event of an outage of various durations that like, you know, the basic exercise would be to think about something of short duration, say two hours of less or less than looking at something a bit more prolonged like six hours, and then going to the next step of saying, what happens if it's more than 24 hours. And you know, if you go to our website, and the website of, you know, many of our peer utilities, most offer a set of resources around how to build a toolkit to be able to remain safe and function through certain duration outages. And then, of course, if you want to go beyond that for certain critical customers, and that conversation is ongoing, and everyone's minds already been turned to that, but looking at other alternatives, like on site generation, energy storage, generators, of course, being the traditional option, but looking to secure some critical processes with on site generation where possible. So building resilience is something that we've worked on, you know, for decades, through our infrastructure investments, of course, but working with customers, and more so than ever again, as we electrify many more aspects of our lives. We need to ensure that everyone appreciates and recognizes what may be required if power was to for hopefully a very short amount of time not be available.
Dan Seguin 20:03
Now, what kind of planning and predictions are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to electrification?
Guillaume Paradis 20:13
So the short term is probably the most interesting element now, because it's been a little difficult to figure out exactly when things would land. So what we're seeing today, and that's ongoing now, is that, you know, certainly many customers are actively looking at reducing their impact in terms of carbon footprint. And they're looking at doing that through electrification. And so we're seeing a lot of activity where customers choose to switch to fuel, which would be essentially moving away from using carbon intensive energy resources for things like heating, and then leveraging our infrastructure to support that. So when that happens at a campus level, or for commercial customers, that can be a significant growth in the demand on the electricity system. So we're fairly able to project what that looks like. And it's been happening at a good pace. On the electric vehicle adoption side of things we've been monitoring for over a decade now, we've been, you know, doing some modeling, some predictions, we've worked with, you know, external stakeholders to put together studies that would help us understand the impact. The thing that has been challenging, certainly over the last two years is that there's now a clear gap between the market demand with or for electric vehicles, and what manufacturers and the supply chains are able to make available to that market. So figuring out the exact timing has become a little more challenging, where we would have expected to see, you know, a very steady growth, but a significant growth that would eventually turn into sort of a complete shift to electric vehicle purchases. Whereas it's taking a bit longer, I think, to occur than we would have, frankly, hoped for, but also expected, it's getting, it's gotten us or given us a bit more time as supposed to plan for it. But certainly from an electrification standpoint, and the predictions that we're making, we're seeing electric vehicles being sort of pervasive across our distribution system. It'll occur over a certain number of years, but we will have electric vehicle charging occur all over service territory. And certainly from a fleet standpoint, once again, as soon as some of the manufacturers manage to ramp up their capacity to produce vehicles, we're expecting to see more and more fleet operators move their entire operation to electric vehicles. And so we're preparing for that as well.
Dan Seguin 22:58
Now, Guillaume, tell me, what keeps you up at night, then, talk to me about what gives you hope.
Guillaume Paradis 23:06
So what still keeps me up at night. And I think that's just a virtue of the environment. And the industry that we're in is the safety of our team. And, frankly, anyone who interacts with our infrastructures, so that that's something that we easily forget in our society, considering how, you know, ubiquitous energy electricity is, it's just the sheer power that that electricity represents, and how close in proximity it comes to many people, certainly our workforce, you know, physically interacts with that infrastructure every day. And so ensuring that we remain safe at all times is critical. But it's the same for our customers and anyone who comes close to the electricity infrastructure. And so that's, that's first and foremost, I think it's just, you know, a reality of what we do, distributing electricity. But certainly just the general pace of change is interesting, I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, because I'm worried it keeps me up at night because it's exciting. And there's so much possibilities that come with what's ahead to a degree that we've frankly, never seen in our industry. And so it's just a completely exciting time to be part of the electricity industry. We just got to make sure that we do everything we can to leverage what's coming for the benefit of our customers and to power our community. But you know, there are much worse things to be kept up at night by and I think it's just a lot of energy. Literally, I suppose, coming to all of us, you know around the organization in the industry. Well, hope is So we have, you know, so many bright colleagues, so many people looking at what's, you know, ahead and what's upon us, that we're uniquely positioned to help, you know, our, all societies across the globe, deliver on, you know, what is, you know, the generational challenge of climate change. So we're, you know, it's, it's not often that you're part of an industry that can have such a significant impact on such a large problem. And so to be right in the middle of it, and having a key role in enabling the aspiration of our entire society, is really exciting. And, you know, having the chance to take tangible and real concrete actions to get us all there is fantastic. So the hope comes from the energy of everyone involved, and the talent of everyone in Walt involved, and the passion that they bring to solving this massive, massive challenge that we have ahead of us.
Dan Seguin 26:12
Moving on here, what role does hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
Guillaume Paradis 26:22
So that the, I think the unique perspective that we bring, so certainly, electrifying period, right, so we're, we're, you know, an alternative to dirtier sources, particularly here in Ontario, where we can still count on an electricity system that is very significantly, you know, supplied by renewable energy resources. So we're sort of a platform for greenhouse gas reduction, just by virtue of electrification. So that is a significant role. And even more importantly, we also have, you know, an opportunity to be direct partners with industries, stakeholders, businesses, commercial actors, who are actually trying to reduce their greenhouse gases, footprint and impact. And so we're, we're part of the conversation and what we do differently than other businesses is, we think and plan in decades, and, you know, in Windows of 25, and 50 years, and so we've been here 100 years, we're expecting to be here, you know, many 100 more. And so we have that long term perspective that we can bring to the table, when engaging with other stakeholders who maybe think more on a sort of business case level in terms of three and five year paybacks, we're actually able to bring in that long term perspective to inform their decision making. So it's pretty unique, frankly, and, and we're also in many, many cases, in a position where we're trusted advisors. So there has been that trust built over decades of being reliable and available. And so we're seen as or as almost impartial in the process of electrifying and reducing greenhouse gases. And so again, we can bring that perspective to bear when supporting our customers and making those decisions and enabling those objectives of more sustainable activities.
Dan Seguin 28:43
Sorry about this Guillaume, but I've got a follow up question, what are some of the initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help customers in this area?
Guillaume Paradis 28:51
So we have essentially the full inventory of initiatives. So from a customer standpoint, we work with them at the facility level, we have, you know, our key account representatives, we're sort of their energy advisors on demand. And so, you know, that is a direct line between customers and all the portfolios and all the options that are available in the industry. So that's, that's big, because it's, it's almost working with them from the inception of their plans to try to bring them to, you know, that future of a lower carbon footprint. And so, you know, we're very active in that space. You know, from an energy standpoint and an energy system standpoint, we see our responsibility as being the local enabler of local renewable energy resources, and a more efficient use of energy, you know, in our community and in the communities that we serve. And so we're working with industry stakeholders, particularly regulatory agencies, and better informing their approach to enabling those resources to make sure that when customers approach us with their solar generation project, or with their battery storage project, we find the best way to make that investment work for them financially, but also for our community from a greenhouse gas standpoint. And so we have a very important role in sort of acting as an interface between, you know, our constituents, and the regulatory agencies that govern what we do. And that's fundamental to making that green future possible. Because we're essentially, you know, ending an entire regulatory framework, and an entire industry paradigm on the fly, as people make those decisions, to invest differently. And so that advisor role is critical, that advocacy role is critical. And you know, more specifically, we have a wide variety of programs, all available in great detail on our website, to help customers think through the decisions that they're making with respect to energy.
Dan Seguin 31:21
Now, what are your thoughts on distributed energy resources, what kind of challenges or opportunities do they pose?
Guillaume Paradis 31:32
Not only a great opportunity, but a necessary piece of that puzzle coming together with respect to electrifying and proceeding with that energy transition that we've all embarked on. And that going forward with the combination of a growing demand for electricity, and some of the challenges brought about by climate change, will need to be able to leverage energy resources closer to where the demand actually exists. And distributed energy resources are sort of the elementary building blocks that will allow us to do that where by having a generation closer to our customers within our community here in Ottawa, for example, and in Castleman, we'll be able to ensure that we're not reliant on power coming from, you know, hundreds of kilometers away somewhere across the province. And that under more scenarios, contingency or otherwise, we're able to leverage what's here to ensure that our customers stay power through whatever may come and so the D ers bolt in meeting capacity requirements going forward and meeting resilience expectations will be essential. And so once again, they in terms of scaling up to, you know, many 1000s within Ottawa, Ottawa, they represent a pretty significant engineering challenge in rethinking our control systems, our, you know, engineering decisions, but they're a necessary and important building block, and therefore much larger of an opportunity than they are a threat. And we just need to spend the next few years continuing to evolve our ability to leverage those in real time to meet our future objectives.
Dan Seguin 33:30
Okay, yeah, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. We've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guillaume Paradis 33:38
Okay,we'll give it a shot.
Dan Seguin 33:40
Okay. What are you reading right now?
Guillaume Paradis 33:43
So, I'm not sure if the timing of this conversation will matter. But certainly leading up to Remembrance Day, I sort of tend to go back to at least one book, you know, related to war, and the impacts of war. And so I've gotten back into reading August by Barbara Tuchman. So that's sort of one of my favorite books about the start of the First World War. Just very well written. And every time I go back to it, I'm just inspired by the quality of the storytelling, but I have this bad habit of reading multiple books at the same time, which typically takes me forever to get through them. I've started Dawn of everything or the dawn of everything, which is a complicated but very interesting reevaluation of how modern enlightenment thinking has evolved in Europe through the influence of some of the North American First Nations. It is a very interesting topic there. And also reading An old classic and letters from a stoic by Seneca when I managed to not fall asleep at 1230 Each night, but those are the three books that are on my night table right now.
Dan Seguin 35:16
Now, what would you name your boat? If you have one? Or maybe do you have one?
Guillaume Paradis 35:22
I do not. And I would let my kids name it. And so I expect it would be called something related to Paw Patrol, or the latest show that they're on these days. But I would certainly not shoulder that responsibility. And I would ask my kids to decide what the name should be,
Dan Seguin 35:47
Who is someone that you admire, Guillaume?
Guillaume Paradis 35:50
I'm going to stay on the same theme with that one. And I think I have to say, I admire my wife. And I do because I get to watch her in action every single day. And I see how she tackles problems. And she multitasks and makes problems go away that I couldn't quite wrap my head around. And so the relentless energy or determination that she applies to everything she does, is really a big inspiration for me. So, you know, surely there are others, you know, in our history or otherwise, that could be inspirations, but no one resonates in my life, quite to the degree that my wife does.
Dan Seguin 36:35
Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guillaume Paradis 36:42
Fair, that's, that's a tricky one. I think, not the engineering type talking about science here. But I think just there's two extremes that are either dead technologies that we've managed to develop. And one of the ones I think of occasionally, is them, computers and the chips and the microprocessors we've been to develop, able to develop and just the sheer scale, and the complexity that we've been able to create there. Otherwise, things like CRISPR, for genetic splicing, I just still can't quite wrap my head around how that's possible. But we're able to do things with DNA now that are just, you know, stuff of science fiction 20 years ago, anything to do with space exploration, and deploying, you know, telescopes in space or launching probes to Mars, I still don't understand how we managed to do that, without something failing more often than it does. And otherwise, the other extreme, I would say is, is just nature, right. And that's exactly what we're all working on today, across the globe, is recognizing that what we have, you know, around us, our planet is just beyond amazing, and, you know, almost incomprehensible in complexity. And we have a responsibility to take care of that. But I think, you know, whenever we have, I have the chance of stepping out of the city and just looking around at nature for a few minutes, you have to kind of be reminded of how unlikely it all seems that something so complex, so beautiful, would come together. And so I think, you know, in the real world, those things are as close as we can get to magic, really.
Dan Seguin 38:38
Okay, this is an interesting one, Guillaume. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guillaume Paradis 38:46
That's a tricky one to think through. Because there's been so much that seems to have happened over the last 24 months - and now 30 months of the pandemic, I would say just having to constantly adapt without what seemed for a while a real frame of reference, right. So if you take yourself back to the early days of the pandemic, in particular, it just seemed like every other week, we would, we would be learning new things about how the pandemic would work and how forecasts look as to how we might get out of that situation. And so, you know, I'm someone who loves change in general. But even for me, in those early days, it just seemed a little bit unsettling to feel like every other week, you had to rethink a lot of your decisions, a lot of your planning a lot of the ways in which you thought you could protect yourself, your colleagues in your family, and so just having to do that on an ongoing basis for an extended period of time. Like that was very, very challenging. And so I'd probably put that as the biggest challenge. But obviously, you know, everything else that flowed from there was back to our society or friends and family or colleagues. That was just a very, very unique situation to work through in general, right?
Dan Seguin 40:11
We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately, what is your favorite movie or your favorite show?
Guillaume Paradis 40:19
So I watch just about anything that comes up, that I can sort of sit through for more than 15 minutes that sort of detest now. We've all watched so much TV over the last few years that if something can capture your attention for 15 minutes, that's probably a good sign. I always, and that might be a boring answer. But I always end up going back to, you know, one of the classics and Seinfeld. So, you know, you look at what's available. And, you know, sometimes you just don't have the energy to start something new. And I just go back to it, I found it's aged fairly well, some of the humor in there is quite timeless. And so it's sort of like a comforting blanket almost at this point, they just go back to a couple old Seinfeld episodes.
Dan Seguin 41:12
Lastly, sir, what's exciting you about your industry right now?
Guillaume Paradis 41:18
I mean, I've said it a few times already. But just the opportunity to be in the middle of all that change. Like, it's such an important time in our societies evolution, I would not want to be on the sidelines of watching that unfold. And I think, you know, being so centrally positioned to help us all achieve those really big aspirations we have with respect to climate and the environment. I think that's great, right? And we have the tools, we have the energy we have, you know, everyone is willing, and so we just have to do it. So I think, you know, it's such a source of inspiration and energy. That, you know, I couldn't ask for more frankly, electricity was always important. And I was always something that made our industry very intriguing, and, you know, interesting, but that has been taken to a whole new level in the last little while. And for the foreseeable future, that, you know, there's going to be an endless supply of energy for all of us to solve those big problems.
Dan Seguin 42:31
Well, Guillaume, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you, and our organization, how could they connect?
Guillaume Paradis 42:45
So certainly, you know, go to our website, we've just launched a brand new website for a group of companies, I believe. It's under the name of power as one.com. Otherwise, our hydro auto website, of course, I wouldn't encourage you to find out more about me, I'm not that important. But check out the resources we have on our website. Our organization in particular is doing all sorts of novel and cool things, whether it be across Portage power, and vari Hebrew networks, or hydro Ottawa limited. So check out what we have there and reach out, you'll see all sorts of channels on there that you can use to engage with us. We're actively looking for everyone's input as we think about the future of energy. And so please come forward with whatever creative solutions you have. And I assure you, we'll consider them.
Dan Seguin 43:46
Again, Guillaume, merci beaucoup, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun.
Guillaume Paradis 43:52
Cheers. And it was great. Thank you, Dan, for having me.
Dan Seguin 43:55
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Think Energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
-
Summer Rewind: The Canadian Climate Institute’s Big Switch
Reaching Canada’s net zero goals is a bit like solving a national puzzle. There are many pieces that need to fit together, including doubling or tripling the amount of zero-emissions electricity Canada currently produces to meet future demand for widespread electrification. Caroline Lee, senior researcher with the Canadian Climate Institute, walks us through the Big Switch report, which highlights three crucial changes required by Canada’s electricity sector in order to hit the country’s net zero goals.
Related links
Website: https://climateinstitute.ca/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadianclimateinstitute/
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod -
Summer Rewind: The 2030 EV Action Plan with Electric Mobility Canada
Summer Rewind: The 2022 federal budget doubled down on Canada’s commitment to make all light-duty vehicles and passenger truck sales fully electric by 2035. That’s a considerable investment to get Canadians behind the wheel of an EV. Daniel Breton, President and CEO of Electric Mobility Canada joins us to discuss whether the real concerns about a shift to EVs are being addressed. From pricing models to helping rural, northern First Nations and Inuit communities, there’s still a lot to be done.
Related links
LinkedIn, Daniel Breton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-breton-b8a3b1a4/
LinkedIn, Electric Mobility Canada: https://www.linkedin.com/company/electric-mobility-canada/
Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/
---
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod -
Summer Rewind: Responding to emergencies and disasters with the Canadian Red Cross – thinkenergy Podcast Episode 103
When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organisation, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.
Related links
The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada
Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/
Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety
---
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
---
Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited
Check out our cool pics on https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa
More to Learn on https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa
Keep up with the Tweets at https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod
#ThinkEnergy #HydroOttawa #EnergySolutions
____________________________________________________
Transcript:
Dan Seguin 00:06
This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.
Guy Lepage 03:16
Thanks for having me.
Dan Seguin 03:17
Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?
Guy Lepage 03:27
You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.
Dan Seguin 05:13
Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?
Guy Lepage 05:20
I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.
Dan Seguin 06:16
Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?
Guy Lepage 06:30
Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.
Dan Seguin 10:05
Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?
Guy Lepage 10:21
I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.
Dan Seguin 11:51
Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?
Guy Lepage 12:21
Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.
Dan Seguin 14:20
I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?
Guy Lepage 14:33
That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.
Dan Seguin 15:55
Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?
Guy Lepage 16:26
Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.
Dan Seguin 17:44
Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?
Guy Lepage 17:55
That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.
Dan Seguin 19:43
Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment
Guy Lepage 19:59
There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.
Dan Seguin 22:39
Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?
Guy Lepage 22:47
There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.
Dan Seguin 25:24
Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?
Guy Lepage 25:47
House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.
Guy Lepage 28:00
Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,
Guy Lepage 28:13
I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.
Dan Seguin 29:52
This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?
Guy Lepage 30:15
Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.
Dan Seguin 32:55
Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?
Guy Lepage 33:05
Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.
Dan Seguin 33:42
Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?
Guy Lepage 33:51
There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details [email protected].
Dan Seguin 35:34
Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?
Guy Lepage 35:44
I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.
Dan Seguin 36:28
Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?
Guy Lepage 36:35
K, I'm ready.
Dan Seguin 36:36
Okay, cool.
Dan Seguin 36:37
Now, what are you reading right now?
Guy Lepage 36:40
I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.
Dan Seguin 36:54
Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?
Guy Lepage 37:01
No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.
Dan Seguin 37:06
Now, who is someone that you admire?
Guy Lepage 37:09
My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.
Dan Seguin 37:26
Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?
Guy Lepage 37:34
Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.
Dan Seguin 37:53
Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?
Guy Lepage 38:01
I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.
Dan Seguin 38:27
Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?
Guy Lepage 38:36
I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.
Dan Seguin 39:02
Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?
Guy Lepage 39:15
redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.
Dan Seguin 39:30
Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.
Guy Lepage 39:37
Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.
Dan Seguin 39:50
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.
- Visa fler
