In this interview, you’ll learn how Logan Naidu built one of the fastest-growing recruitment companies in the UK based on a core set of corporate values: Excellence, Partnership, Knowledge, Diversity and Kindness.
You’ll also hear Logan’s amazing story of resilience and how being diagnosed with cancer at age 31 was the catalyst for a significant change in the trajectory of his recruiting career. Plus he shares his insights on learning and development, assessing culture fit, and successful business models.
Named by The Sunday Times as one of Britain’s 500 most influential people, Logan is the founder and CEO of Dartmouth Partners. Over the last 8 years, they've grown from a start-up to one of the UK's fastest-growing recruitment companies, have received private equity backing, and made their first acquisition, Pure search. Today the group operates as a multi-brand, multi-niche player, 180 employees across 5 Geographies and are listed as FT1000 fastest growing companies in Europe and are set for tremendous continued growth over the coming year.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:05] Logan’s amazing story of resilience and source of motivation. [13:22] The ‘Classroom to Boardroom’ model. [17:32] Logan’s approach to assessing culture fit. [22:30] Success as a Billing Manager - how Logan was able to balance making placements, training a team, and running a business. [27:34] Should the top biller always be promoted to a leadership role? Hear Logan’s deciding factors. [30:52] Kindness as a corporate value? Hear the two aspects of how kindness can be applied in the context of a recruitment business. [35:37] Unlocking real sustainable growth with learning and development - Dartmouth’s world-class aspirations. [46:21] Scaling your business - Logan shared his experience on the constraints and how he overcame them.
Million Pound per Year Biller
I asked Logan why he left the first business that he co-founded. He explained that despite being a million-pound biller for two consecutive years, certain life-changing events made him redefine his purpose and ultimately led to some business decisions.
I can’t help but be astounded and inspired by Logan as he shared his journey. At the age of 31, he experienced three life-changing events - getting married, being diagnosed with cancer a day before their first anniversary, and having a child six months after being diagnosed.
These combined experiences made him realize that although he’d been successful as a big biller in a small boutique, “Life is super short … I don’t want this to be the rest of my working career.”
From a personal development perspective, he was more motivated by “business” than by “billing” and wanted to grow a large business. This ambition wasn’t shared by his partners at the time who were happy running a boutique, so he exited his first company to launch Dartmouth Partners.
Kindness as a Corporate Value
Dartmouth Partners corporate values are Excellence, Partnership, Knowledge, Diversity and Kindness.
The one that jumped out to me from this list is ‘kindness.’ I can’t remember seeing this word in a recruitment company’s values statement before. Yet it’s one that resonates with me personally. So what does kindness mean in the context of a recruitment business? Logan explained how kindness could be applied in the way we treat others both external and internal.
From an external point of view, Logan elaborated, “Listening to them [candidates] and taking them seriously is really important. I think we forget that in the industry because we think about deals and transactions but this is, fundamentally, a very human job and that’s a real privilege. Actually, you get to know your candidates really well, a lot of them become friends over time and they really trust you.”
On an internal relevance, kindness is definitely needed when dealing with your team. “The bit internally, I think talking to people and ultimately treating them in a grown-up manner. Recruitment companies tend to go down the route of micro-management and KPIs. But actually, if we hire bright, good, hard-working people and train them in the right way, you can give them an awful lot of freedom. You don’t need to micro-manage them.”
Logan Naidu Bio and Contact Info
Logan is the founder and CEO of Dartmouth Partners. He has a notable track record in recruiting across financial services but with a particular focus on M&A and Private Equity. While running the firm from a strategic perspective, Logan uses his recruitment expertise to guide consultants in the execution of roles. He continues to work on the delivery of more senior advisory and investment mandates.
Logan studied to Masters level at the University of Birmingham before entering the City in 2000.
He began his career at JPMorgan and PriceWaterhouseCoopers in Corporate Finance. Logan co-founded the Cornell Partnership in 2005 before leading a successful exit of the financial services and graduate business to form what is now Dartmouth.
Logan has a desire for individuals and businesses to work together to mutually flourish and to enjoy shared success and this is reflected internally at Dartmouth. Dartmouth’s success is partly due to Logan’s drive to succeed. It has also been recognised in numerous industry accolades:Debrett’s People of Today (2017) The Sunday Times as one of Britain’s 500 most influential people (2016) Shortlisted as Recruitment Entrepreneur of the Year and GB Entrepreneur of the Year in the services industry (2015) Growing Business “Young Gun” Awards (2013)
Outside of Dartmouth, Logan is a trustee of Thrive Youth Trust, the partner charity to Thrive In Work, a social enterprise enabling young people to gain employment.
A committed Christian, he is the father of three noisy children, husband to one ever-supportive wife and a serious tennis and fitness nut.Logan on LinkedIn Dartmouth Partners website link
Connect with Mark WhitbyGet your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Want to become the ‘go-to’ recruiter in your niche, generate inbound leads, create a high-performance culture, or scale your recruitment agency internationally? Then you’re going to love my interview with Toby Babb.
Toby is the founder and CEO of the Harrington Starr Group, an award-winning fintech recruiter with offices in London and New York. Toby had been in the recruitment industry for 21 years and has won Agency Leader of the Year and the Entrepreneur of the Year by Recruiter Magazine.
Toby’s also paving the way for other recruiters with his commitment to digital marketing. He’s the host of the Fintech Focus podcast, Fintech Focus TV, editor of the Financial Technologist Magazine and Chairman of the Fintech Influencers networking community.
In this interview, Toby reveals the success factors to building one of the UK’s top 100 recruitment companies. He also shares his passion for positioning recruitment as a professional service and the importance of improving the customer experience, standards and overall view of the recruitment sector.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:30] Toby shares his motivations for hosting a podcast. [7:02] Doing the right thing for your clients by becoming a consultant in the truest sense. [13:04] Increasing the quality of your inbound leads. [18:37] The 3 success factors for building one of the UK’s top 100 recruitment companies. [24:30] Using technology to help your people be ‘faster, better, stronger’ without sacrificing the art of recruitment. [30:45] Staying true to your niche vs the temptation to pursue other opportunities. [35:47] Having offices in the UK and New York, Toby shares differences in the style of recruiting between the two markets? [42:36] Which works better, 360 or 180? Toby compares both business models, from the perspective of having a hybrid of both. [49:08] Harrington Star’s way of doing things - five keys. [56:51] Toby reveals his biggest mistake in the business and what we can learn from it.
Becoming a Consultant in its Truest Sense
Toby truly believes in the importance of becoming a “consultant” in its truest sense. He explained, “People are the fuel of everyone’s success. If you are able to be a trusted advisor… if you are a genuine consultant in what you are doing, you are able to garner that trust that excludes competition and it makes your business more efficient.”
Some of the key takeaways from our conversation on this topic include:How to position yourself as an advisor How to establish your credibility How to increase the quantity and quality of inbound leads
Building One of the Most Successful Recruitment Companies in the UK
Harrington Starr was listed by Recruiter Magazine as one of the Hot 100 recruitment companies in the UK. That’s out of 30-40,000 recruiting and staffing companies! I asked Toby to explain his top three success factors. Here is what he shared:You can’t do good numbers without good people. You must have something slightly different in the marketplace. Staying true to your niche.
You can imagine the challenge given the really saturated situation in the UK. How did Toby’s organisation come up with a unique value compared to others? He shared some great insights and also talked about the temptation to be opportunistic vs strategic and staying true to his niche.
Toby Babb Bio and Contact Info
Toby has worked with the world's leaders in financial services and commodities technology for seventeen years. Having led high performing teams for two listed, global recruitment brands, he saw the opportunity to build a pioneering, values-based company that would work with customers to provide solutions and real value well beyond the traditional models on offer in the sector. He is a keen student of the world's leading teams and brands and passionate about elite performance organisations. Toby is a regular commentator on business, technology, employment and recruitment for the BBC and a blogger on FinTech and Commodities Trading systems.Toby on LinkedIn Toby on Instagram Fintech Focus Podcast link Harrington Starr website link Harrington Starr on Twitter @HarringtonStarr Harrington Starr on Youtube
People and Resources MentionedLeanne Sara Jones Hunt on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR#66 How to Grow Your Recruitment Business by Hiring Top Recruiters, with Leanne Sara Jones Hunt
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Saknas det avsnitt?
What does the future of recruitment look like?
We’ve all been forced to adapt to new ways of working in recent times. We’ve experienced a decade’s worth of change compressed into a matter of months. However, much of that change has been reactive. According to Bruce Morton, author of “Redesigning the Way Work Works,” there has never been a better opportunity to strategically redesign our way of working.
Bruce is the Global Head of Strategy for Allegis, one of the top 5 largest staffing companies in the world. Bruce has worked at Allegis for 11 years and has over 40 years of experience in the human capital industry. He is well known as a global workforce design and talent acquisition expert. He has designed, implemented and managed some of the largest resourcing solutions across many different parts of the globe.
In this fascinating interview, Bruce explains the emerging role of “work-design architect,” the trend towards “projectizing” tasks, and the concept of “talent anywhere.” He also discussed the enduring impact of Covid on the future of businesses, from car manufacturing to office spaces.
Episode Outline and Highlights[3:46] Bruce’s role as Global Head of Strategy at Allegis Global Solutions [7:42] Discussing Bruce’s 2019 book, “Redesigning the Way Work Works” -- which of his predictions came true and how would he revise the book in light of Covid? [12:14] What is the “work-design architect” and how is it opening a world of possibilities? [17:59] If, when and how people should return to the office. [22:08] Beyond employer branding: how companies can attract top talent and increase employee engagement by “projectizing” their tasks and introducing “stretch assignments.” [28:20] The trend towards “talent anywhere” and remote working. [32:02] The benefits of “one-click apply” [41:38] Covid realizations and enduring impact on the future of business - from car sales to office space. [43:24] Measuring outcome instead of input. [46:00] Why the opportunity divide is getting bigger and what role we can play as recruiters.
“Redesigning the Way Work Works”
When Bruce turned 60, coinciding with his 40th anniversary in recruitment, he wrote the book Redesigning the Way Work Works. He considered it as a gift to himself as well as his gift to the industry. The book was published pre-covid in 2019. I asked Bruce which parts of the book would he revise post-pandemic and which of his key themes or predictions came true?
He replied: “If I have time to rewrite it or update it, I would love to be able to do that and just put a big stamp on the front ‘Post Covid’. Because some of the projections that I made in the book that I was saying five to 10 years, actually happened within the first two months of Covid.”
Bruce then proceeded to share his thoughts about innovation, how the way of working has significantly changed, and how organizations should think. One of my key takeaways was to “stop being limited by the four walls around you.” That will make more sense once you listen to the interview.
Company Branding and How to Attract Top Performers
How do you establish a culture that attracts top talent? The culture used to be based around the office environment. So how do you establish a brand of being a “great place to work” when most people are working remotely?
We started out discussing ideas you’re already familiar with, like the need to provide great benefits, embrace diversity and inclusion, and social corporate responsibility. Then Bruce shared a few paradigm-shifting concepts that I’d never heard before. He explained, “When you are trying to attract people it used to be all about the company name.” Bruce explained how we’re seeing a shift from being primarily loyal to the company to being loyal to the craft. Given that people are now more loyal to the profession or their expertise, Bruce pointed out that in order to attract strong performers and top talents, companies should focus on two things:“Projectizing” tasks and Giving stretch assignments
The Opportunity Divide and What We Can Do
A topic that Bruce is passionate about is the “opportunity divide.” He explains, “I think that it is horrendously staggering that the better we get at utilizing technology, the smarter we get as a human race, the opportunity divide is getting bigger and bigger… A CEO now on average earns 320 times more than an employee. Ten years ago the difference was only ten times.”
So how do we as an industry make a positive impact on people’s lives and reduce the opportunity divide? Bruce said, “How do we educate all of our clients to think about opportunity divide and truly give people opportunity? Bruce talked about recruiting based on somebody’s potential versus recruiting based on somebody’s past experience.
Bruce Morton Bio and Contact Info
Bruce is in his 40th year in the human capital industry and has been recognized as HR Thought Leader of the Year by HRO both in EMEA and in the US. He is the author of the book ‘Redesigning the Way Work Works.’ As the Head of Strategy for Allegis Global Solutions, Bruce concentrates on adding increased value to clients from new services and product idea generation, digital transformation, internal and external thought leadership through conferences and speaking engagements.Bruce on LinkedIn Bruce on Twitter @brucetalent Allegis Global Solutions website link
People and Resources MentionedDoug Bugie Redesigning The Way Work Works: Strong Opinions and Advice from 40 Years in the Business a book by Bruce Morton Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR # 69 Recruitment Legends: Leadership and Life Lessons From 40 Years in the Global Recruiting Industry, with Doug Bugie
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
When 9/11 happened, Jared Coseglia had to give up his career as a theatre director and landed an admin job in a recruitment company. Twenty years later, he’s the CEO of an award-winning staffing business that not only survived but actually thrived during the pandemic.
In this interview, Jared shares his experience of building a highly successful recruiting and staffing company. One of the keys to growing your recruitment business is identifying, recruiting, mentoring and retaining the best people. Jared gave specific suggestions on how to recruit recruiters and then create an environment where they can achieve their potential. He also revealed his secrets to building a brand through thought-leadership and PR.
Jared is the founder and CEO of TRU Staffing Partners, an award-winning staffing company representing talent and opportunities in the data privacy, e-discovery, and cybersecurity verticals since 2010. Jared has successfully placed over 3000 professionals in full-time and temporary positions at the Fortune 1000, Am Law 200, and throughout the global consultancy, service and software provider community. His ability to identify, deliver, mentor, and help retain talent has given him the privilege of quickly becoming the globally recognized “go-to” individual for hiring managers and job seekers in need of staffing solutions or career guidance and management in legal technology and data protection.
Episode Outline and Highlights[3:16] From being a theatre director to becoming a recruiter. [7:54] Two valuable tips on candidate preparation - Jared shared how he preps his candidates from a director’s perspective. [12:13] Growing a business from scratch and becoming a market leader [17:56] The benefits of the contract staffing business model. [22:00] Temporary staffing and retained executive search - how to do both! [29:20] Leadership advice: painting a picture and being a visionary. [31:10] Hear two pointers in successfully recruiting recruiters. [38:00] How sincerity and caring for people have contributed to TRU Staffing Partners’ success. [41:03] Mentoring your staff - making yourself available to your employees [46:30] How to respond when people in your organization make mistakes. [50:11] The importance of hiring agents and experts.
Transferring Skills as a Theatre Director to Talent Representation and Interview Preparation
Jared started his career in the theatre industry - which sadly became difficult when 9/11 happened. He then shifted to the recruitment and staffing business, which he started as a temp doing admin tasks. He eventually learned to source and successfully applied the skills he developed in the theatre. As Jared said, “I likened it to casting. Because when you’re a director you’re always casting shows. I do think there are quite a lot of similarities to being a theatre director where at the end of the day your mission is to harmonize the human capital of all the different disciplines that go into making the work of art.”
Aside from the comparison of sourcing to casting, he also believes that clarity and articulation of thoughts, as well as appreciation and access of the human condition from the inside, contributed greatly to his success, which he gives credit to his theatre background.
Prepping Your Candidates
How do you prep your candidates to set them up for success? Jared shared a lot of commonalities with his previous career in the theatre. Some key pointers are:Know the audience Help the candidate shape his performance for that audience It is not just a knowledge transfer, but also creating a safe space for people to make mistakes.
Jared explained, “Think of it this way, when you’re an actor, you have ideas. But mainly you don’t share those ideas or you don’t try those ideas out on stage without permission. So a good rehearsal process, when you’re a theatre director, is giving actors permission and creating a safe space for people to make mistakes, say the wrong things, try things that don’t work so that you could guide them to the ones that do.”
How to Successfully Recruit Recruiters
When Jared was scaling his business, he recognized the challenge in hiring skilled recruiters. He actually hired around one-third of his people through an agency. He also revealed some of his secrets to acquiring great talents. In his words, “You have to find great people to invest in at a young point in their career, not age, but a young point in their career in this space.” He backed up his advice by sharing amazing real-life examples of people he’s hired.
Jared argued that recruiting for your team is somewhat similar to doing improv. “You know there is a saying in theatre, that when you’re doing improvisation, you have to say yes.” He then elaborated on how saying “yes” applies to recruiting good recruiters.
Jared Coseglia Bio and Contact Info
Jared Michael Coseglia is the founder and CEO of TRU Staffing Partners, an award-winning staffing company representing talent and opportunities in the data privacy, e-discovery, and cybersecurity verticals since 2010.
Jared’s unique style of representation, a vast network of relationships, and subject matter expertise have helped earn him and TRU a host of awards including the Inc. 5000 Fastest-Growing Private Companies in America rankings two years in a row, #1043 in 2016 and #1189 in 2017.
TRU has been voted a top three legal and/or litigation support staffing agency for seven consecutive years in both the National Law Journal and the New York Law Journal, winning first place for National Law Journal’s 2018 Legal Outplacement/Career Transition Coaching and Corporate Counsel Magazine’s Best Legal Outplacement/Career Transition Coaching in 2016. TRU was also recognized in 2019 as a Hall of Fame recipient in NLJ’s Best Legal Recruiter category.
Jared is an active member of the legal and cybersecurity community and, in addition to his role on the Board of Editors for Cybersecurity Law & Strategy (an ALM Law Journal Newsletter), he has authored over ninety articles, regularly appeared on a dozen podcasts and webinars, and spoken at over fifty conferences. Coseglia was awarded Best Reviewed e-Discovery Session at Enfuse 2017 for his lecture and Q&A on “Transitioning Your Career from ESI to Cybersecurity” and was the recipient of a 2017 ILTA (International Legal Technology Association) Publication Award for Outstanding Magazine Article by a Business Partner for the article “Moving into Management: What You Need To Get From Here to There.” Coseglia is currently writing a regular series on cybersecurity, e-discovery, and privacy certifications for Legaltech News as well as a bi-monthly column about Chief Privacy Officers for CPO Magazine which can be read, along with all his original content, at www.trustaffingpartners.com.Jared on LinkedIn TRU Staffing Partners website link TRU Staffing Partners on LinkedIn TRU Staffing Partners on Twitter @trustaffingpart
People and Resources MentionedAmanda Brandenburg on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
The toughest job in recruitment is the role of a Billing Manager. You’re trying to build a team and run an office with all that entails -- hiring, training and managing recruiters. Plus you’re trying to lead by example, looking after clients and making placements.
It’s certainly not easy - but it can be done.
My special guest, Jeff Herzog, has mastered the balancing act of the Billing Manager. Jeff is the President of F-O-R-T-U-N-E Personnel Consultants, an executive search franchisor with 62 offices that has been recognized as one of the top 1% of professional search firms in the United States. He also manages an office, FPC of New York City, recruiting for manufacturing companies nationwide. On top of all that, he still runs a desk and maintains a high level of personal production.
In this interview, Jeff shares his approach to making the most effective use of his time. He reveals how he uses technology combined with “resource allocation” to successfully run a franchising system while managing a recruitment office and running his own desk. Jeff provides lots of practical tips and approaches that really make sense.
Also, Jeff divulged strategies for engaging with candidates and overcoming the challenges of delivering them to your clients.
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:16] Having 62 offices in the US, Jeff shares his perspective in terms of what is happening in the market now and how that compares with last year. [6:30] Turndowns and counteroffers - Jeff shares 3 keys to reduce the risk. [15:10] Overcoming the challenges of delivering candidates with VA & technology. [20:15] Sharing best technology tools for recruitment (aside from LinkedIn). [22:15] Three strategies for reaching out to candidates that are difficult to engage with. [27:48] Learn the seven touches in 14 days rule when reaching out. [30:30] Juggling three full-time jobs at a time, how does Jeff do it? Two tips. [40:27] When is the right time to hire and expand your business?
Overcoming the Challenges of Delivering Candidates
After the recent disruption to the market caused by the pandemic, a lot of industries are now bouncing back and hiring a lot of talents. Rather than just getting job orders, Jeff believes that delivering candidates is a more difficult task. How should recruiters overcome this challenge? Jeff mentioned two best practices:Technology - making sure that they fully utilize their own ATS (applicant tracking system) and CRM (customer relationship management) properly. VAs - Virtual assistant services are used in certain parts effectively.
Jeff also gave an interesting insight on how technology should be utilized in the recruitment business. “AI can make us more efficient, but it’s never gonna replace recruiters…” Jeff truly believes that recruitment is a human business. Technology is a tool - having a high tech but high touch process will make us win in the long term. He concluded, “It is really balancing, not overplaying your hand with technology and not underplaying the importance of human connection.”
I also asked Jeff - what has been his most effective strategy for reaching candidates that are difficult to engage with? He gave three key strategies:intuition research brute force
Jeff shared, from personal experience, how he applied all three. As he mentioned, “We have so much more information today than we ever had before, but so much less connection.”
Running a Franchise While Managing His Own Desk
Jeff is doing something that can be overwhelming to most of us - running a successful franchise operation, running his own desk making placements every month, and having an office with recruiters working for him. How does he manage to pull that off? Hear at least two pointers on resource allocation and working on your business.
“Even if you’re a single desk recruiter on this call, right now. You have to look at what you do as a business. It’s not just a desk, you’re not just a recruiter, it is a full-fledged business and you need to have figured out how to be more efficient,” he explained. Hear how he further elaborated his mindset and how he started from scratch.
Jeff Herzog Bio and Contact Info
Jeff Herzog, President and Chief Development Officer, F-O-R-T-U-N-E Franchise Corp. (FPC National). Jeff brings over 20 years of experience in recruitment and recruitment advertising from a variety of companies including Update Legal Staffing, CareerBuilder.com and Tribune Corporation. He was promoted to President of F-O-R-T-U-N-E in October 2016. Prior to that, in 2007, Jeff started FPC of New York City – a company owned recruiting office where he spent ten years placing mid to senior-level executives in life sciences companies around the country. Jeff was the Director of Recruitment and Real Estate Advertising for Newsday, a Tribune Publishing Company. There he managed a budget of over $80 million and oversaw a staff of over 70 employees. He was voted Manager of the Year and was one of the youngest employees to be selected to join the exclusive Tribune Leadership Development Program. Jeff came to Newsday via another Tribune subsidiary, CareerBuilder.com where he was the Area Sales Manager for the New York office. Jeff began his career in recruitment as the manager of the New Jersey office of Update Legal Staffing in 1997. Jeff graduated from SUNY Albany and he lives in Old Bethpage, NY with his wife Denise and their three sons, Benjamin, Derek and Chase.Jeff on LinkedIn FPC National website link FPC Franchise website link FPC National on Twitter @FPCnational FPC National on LinkedIn
People and Resources MentionedDoug Bougie on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR # 69 Recruitment Legends: Leadership and Life Lessons From 40 Years in the Global Recruiting Industry, with Doug Bugie
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Last year many recruiters struggled due to decreased hiring activity and lack of job orders. However, now most recruiters are experiencing the opposite challenge, saying “we have more orders than we can fill” and “we desperately need more placeable candidates.”
This rapid shift to an extremely candidate-driven market, combined with high levels of counter offers and dropouts, means that candidates aren’t responding to recruiters like they used to. This is both a threat and an opportunity. If you’re able to secure the interest of passive candidates and get them to engage with the recruiting process, you will capture exclusive talent that isn’t available to your competitors or in-house TA teams.
This is where my special guest, Alan Cutter, excels. In this episode of The Resilient Recruiter, you’ll hear Alan’s approach of adopting multiple models and a 12-step process to engage with both clients and candidates, combined with investing in HR tech and being ahead in terms of technology, and much, much more.
Alan Cutter is the Founder and CEO of AC Lion, a Forbes rated “best recruiting firm in America” four years in a row. Focusing on digital talent, AC Lion builds leadership teams for growing, forward-looking companies. Their reach spans from innovative venture-backed startups to enterprise-level organizations.
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:39] From New York to Israel - Alan’s 24-year recruitment career journey. [8:09] Helping tech start-ups - why Alan loves working with Founders. [13:28] The downsides of focusing on early-stage start-ups. [15:28] Creating candidate engagement: how to get them to consider joining a start-up. [26:36] Why LinkedIn and voicemail engagement may no longer be as effective for millennials. [31:30] A tip for explaining your USP (unique selling proposition) to clients. [34:41] Why candidates do not want to talk to recruiters the way they used to. [37:30] After surviving and ultimately thriving post 3 economic downturns (2001, 2008, Covid), listen to Alan’s perspective on where recruitment will go from here. [42:38] Know about alternative business models - disrupting and approaching business differently. [50:19] Key learnings from Alan’s 24-year career and looking after your people.
Adopting Multiple Models to Engage with Candidates and Clients
Alan expressed his passion for helping start-up founders and how he is investing in the early-stage founder market. One of the challenges you can expect is attracting talent to join start-ups. How would you convince a strong candidate to get interested in joining a company they’ve never even heard of before? What makes AC Lion’s approach unique is its creativity and persistence. “Today you have to do it like 12 steps,” Alan stated. He described how they engage with a candidate using multiple platforms, without making it look like a generic marketing campaign.
One good example of how they apply creativity is using video. Instead of a simple phone call or a traditional email, they use personalised video outreach to win more candidates efficiently and effectively. Hear how Alan’s team leverages video and why you should consider applying this approach in your own business.
Why Candidates Do Not Want to Talk to Recruiters the Way They Used To
During our conversation, Alan mentioned that candidates do not want to talk to recruiters the way they used to. Why is that? He elaborated, “I think they assume that everything is very transactional right now… there is so much information and data coming at people. I can’t even keep up with my WhatsApp, Telegram, text messages, emails, I have 15 email accounts, so Facebook, LinkedIn, I mean Instagram, TikTok, right?”
Alan believes that with too much data coming in, more candidates would not have time to talk to recruiters like before. But he also stated a very valid point on how some candidates feel more ‘guarded’ or sceptical towards recruiters. Listen to how you can overcome this potential blocker as Alan shared from personal experience how they use two approaches and how it works for them.
Life and Work Balance
Alan had been living in Longbeach, New York but he and his wife always wanted to live in Israel. Listen to the challenges he faced as he moved towards this goal, as well as the rewards, of ultimately leading a U.S. based recruiting firm from abroad.
Alan Cutter Bio and Contact Info
Alan Cutter is the Founder and CEO of AC Lion, a Forbes rated “best recruiting firm in America” four years in a row. AC Lion’s functional specialities’ include Senior Sales, Marketing, Product Management and HR/Talent. AC Lion’s Industry Expertise include Media/Ad Tech, Fintech, Mar tech, Ecommerce &, Health-tech AC Lion has offices in New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, and Israel.
In addition to its core practice, Alan founded a recruitment innovation lab and investment arm, AC Lion Venture Partners, to invest in companies, challenge the status quo, build new paths and re-imagine outdated traditional models utilizing the new paradigm including Blockchain, Autonomous, IoT, Artificial Intelligence and Mobile-First technology.
Much of Alan's success can be attributed to his belief in and passion for people; ask any of Alan's clients or employees and he/she will speak volumes of their boss's care, consideration, as a complement to his innovative thinking and out-of-the-box problem-solving capabilities. That's an entrepreneur, leader, Board Member and driver of innovation in today's HR world.
Alan’s a huge believer in work-life balance – relocating his wife and 4 kids to Israel just 2.5 years ago, volunteering for numerous community charities, is an avid surfer and Mountain Biker.Alan on LinkedIn Alan on Twitter @aclionceo AC Lion website link AC Lion on Facebook AC Lion on Youtube
People and Resources MentionedWinning the Staffing Sales Game: The Definitive Game Plan for Sales Success in the Staffing Industry by Tom Erb David Bernstein on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
For almost 40 years, Doug Bugie has travelled the globe in search of the big billers and recruitment leaders of the future. He’s personally sold 800 recruitment franchises in 40 countries that collectively have filled over 100,000 assignments.
It’s a great privilege to interview Doug for the second time. In this episode, Doug shares his unique experience of helping James Caan, of Dragon’s Den fame, launch Humana International. In 7 years, they grew Humana to 200 offices in 27 countries and $90m before the business was acquired by MRI in 2001. Doug reveals some of the insights gained and lessons learned from working closely with James and other recruitment industry legends.
You will hear a comparison between recruiting in the UK and the US, plus Doug’s insightful perspective on the future of the recruitment industry, the need to balance between humanity and technology, and much more.
Doug represents FPC, a top 1% performer in the recruitment industry as ranked by Forbes, and ranked top 50 in franchisee satisfaction by Franchise Business Review. Outside the US, Doug represents Antal International, ranked by Recruiter Magazine as one of the UK’s fastest-growing recruitment companies and listed on the Sunday Times International Fast Track.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:08] The industry is roaring back! Listen to Doug’s assessment of the current market. [5:36] Balancing humanity and technology in recruitment. [6:58] Building a business with James Caan. [12:23] “Observe the masses and do the opposite.” [18:30] How the ‘recruitment to recruitment’ industry was pioneered. [20:27] Comparison between the UK and US recruiting industries. [27:34] Doug shares the humble beginnings of Humana International
Bouncing Back From Failure to Build a Business with James Caan
In our interview, Doug describes his colourful career in executive search starting in the 80’s with MRI (Management Recruiters International) and how a failure to achieve one of his life’s ambitions ultimately led to him building a business with James Caan.
Doug describes how he put his entire life savings into running for a seat in the US Congress and lost everything. While this was a crushing disappointment at the time, this setback opened the door to a new opportunity -- one he most likely would never have entertained had his congressional ambitions been fulfilled.
When James Caan invited him to move to the UK in 1992 to start a new business, it didn’t seem on the surface like the incredible, career-defining moment that it later proved to be. At the time, James was a charismatic young “upstart” with an office above a Fish and Chip shop. However, Doug recognized the leadership qualities that would eventually enable James to achieve spectacular success in building and scaling companies globally. As Doug puts it, “James could attract people and get them to buy into the mission and get them to really want it.”
A Solid Career of Wisdom and Experience
Doug’s more than three decades of career in recruitment enabled him to gain experience and learnings you will find valuable in today’s competitive environment. In our conversation, you will hear him share how James Caan revolutionised the executive search industry in the UK and pioneered the ‘rec to rec’ sector. He highlights one of the keys to James’ extraordinary success -- a philosophy that Doug believes still resonates today: “Observe the masses, and do the opposite.”
The Differences Between the US and UK Recruitment Industry and the Invention of the ‘Recruitment to Recruitment’
Having worked and lived in both the UK and the US, Doug shared his observations and personal opinion on the differences between recruiting in both markets. In particular, we discussed the “rec to rec” space since Doug witnessed the birth of that industry. Hear his insights about this subject and how it is relevant to the ongoing evolution of the recruitment industry.
Doug Bugie Bio and Contact Info
Doug Bugie’s career in recruitment spans over three decades where he’s mainly worked in the niche of recruitment franchising. He is the president of Next Wave Global Franchise Systems LLC, which has formed a strategic partnership with FPC National to exclusively sell FPC Franchises. Doug has extensive experience in the recruitment franchise industry - from being an investor, top executive, to becoming a consultant. He was CEO and president of Antal International Network - an executive recruiting company with 130 offices spanning 33 countries, with Tony Goodwin. He was the CEO of Norman Broadbent, based in the UK. Arriving in London in 1992, Doug also co-founded the recruitment franchise Humana International with James Caan, the entrepreneur on the well known UK TV show Dragons Den. Humana, in only 7 years, grew to over 200 offices in 27 countries and over $90m. Humana was awarded the top international franchise in the UK by the British Franchise Association.Doug on LinkedIn FPC website link Antal International website link Doug on Twitter: @DougBugie
People and Resources MentionedJames Caan on LinkedIn Jeff Herzog on LinkedIn Tony Goodwin of Antal International Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR # 3 The 4 Qualities of The World’s Top Recruitment Leaders, with Doug Bugie
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Many recruiters and employers alike believe the traditional recruitment agency model is inefficient and outdated. If you are interested in finding better ways of partnering with clients that are beneficial to both parties, then my special guest, Lisa Dixon, will explain how RPO and MSP services could extend the range of recruitment solutions you’re able to provide.
Lisa is the Director of Infinite Players based in London, helping recruitment agencies develop and bring to market their unique Managed Service Programme (MSP) & Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO) service. Previously, as Managing Director of InterQuest Solutions, Lisa set up an RPO division that became the best performing business in the InterQuest group. With 25 years of experience in recruitment outsourcing across different industries and sectors, she’s been described as the “Jedi Master” of MSP and RPO services.
Episode Outline and Highlights[3:30] Explanation of RPO & MSP business models for small to medium-sized recruitment firms. [7:40] Benefits of MSP arrangements to both clients and recruiters. [10:04] How RPO differs from MSP. [14:27] Things to consider when offering different recruitment solutions for your existing clients. [17:45] Vendor Management Systems - hear Lisa’s perspective. [21:50] Lisa talks about 3 different approaches for billing/fee structures. [25:44] How Lisa established and made InterQuest Solutions one of the best businesses in its group, her challenges and successes. [31:29] How Lisa built a team of 22 recruiters in two weeks to deliver an RPO project. [35:39] Losing 80% of business overnight and her mindset during the pandemic. [38:46] Why is there an increased interest in RPO and MSP solutions? [43:45] Lisa explains the Design, Engage & Win, and Anchor & Expand strategy
What RPO and MSP Means for a Small or Medium-Sized Recruitment Business
With specialization and expertise in Managed Service Programme (MSP) & Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO) services, Lisa explained how this could work for small and medium recruitment businesses. The difference between the two is the type of client each model can provide. An RPO can deliver long-term permanent employees, while MSP is focused on delivering contingent employees such as contractors, temps and interims. She also laid out specific benefits for both parties.
Benefits for clients:Clients have quick access to the skills that they need Clients have the comfort that they’re working with a company that understands their market really well Delivers operational efficiencies and time savings for the client
Benefits for recruiters:Exclusivity on all jobs Long term commitment, usually three-year contracts Predictable billings and cashflow
Behind the scenes, there is a lot of effort and technology involved to set up this type of programme. Lisa details how these mechanisms work and the payoff.
The D.E.W.A Solution
Lisa explained the stages involved in developing a new recruitment solution, such as an RPO or MSP service. The phases are:Phase 1 - Design Phase 2- Engage Phase 3 - Win Phase 4 - Anchor and Expand
Lisa also shares her insights on why there is an increased interest in the RPO and MSP business models.
Resilience and Achievements
In this interview, Lisa shared both her successes and her struggles. She described how she was able to establish Interquest Solutions as the leading businesses in the group. She also gave a breakdown of how she built a team of 22 recruiters in two weeks for an RPO project! On the flip side, she revealed that she lost 80% of her business during the covid crisis. Her mindset and story of grit can definitely inspire you to bounce back from adversity to achieve your goals.
Lisa Dixon Bio and Contact Info
Lisa is the Director of Infinite Players based in London, UK. She has 25 years in recruitment outsourcing, working across multiple sectors and countries. In 2009, she joined InterQuest Group to set up InterQuest Solutions, a business that provides innovative managed services, recruitment outsourcing and recruitment consulting services focused on delivering against clients’ recruitment goals. Lisa’s passionate about helping recruitment agencies and employers resolve their recruitment challenges.Lisa on LinkedIn Infinite Players website link Infinite Players on Facebook Infinite Players on Instagram Infinite Players on Youtube
People and Resources MentionedWill Bourne on LinkedIn James Leighton on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR#56 Top Biller and Former MMA Fighter Reveals How He Defeated Depression and Anxiety, with Will Bourne TRR#61 Client Partnerships: How to Grow a Thriving Recruitment Business in a Crisis, with James Leighton
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
This week on The Resilient Recruiter our most popular guest of all time, Rich Rosen, returns for his second interview.
Previously, Rich shared the mindset and habits that made him a consistent top biller in the industry. This time, you will hear Rich’s unorthodox yet effective approach to client and candidate engagement, leading to high levels of repeat businesses and referrals. These are key factors for anyone who wants to achieve consistent billings and sustainable success in recruiting.
What is cool about Rich is that he is a ‘regular guy’ who achieves exceptional results. Most years, Rich bills around a million dollars from his home office just outside of Boston, yet he is very modest and is willing to share his knowledge and experience to benefit others.
You are going to hear about Rich’s recent shift from contingency to engaged search, including the exact pitch he uses to close 4 out of 5 recent assignments. Rich also talks about the recent increase in candidate dropout rates and shares a real anecdote about a candidate ghosting him at the offer stage, and the hilarious tactic Rich used to finally get the candidate to respond, plus much more!
Episode Outline and Highlights[4:55] Transitioning from pure contingency to retained or engaged search [10:07] Rich’s key to getting the majority of his business from repeat clients and referrals. [15:36] Why did Rich fire a client at the beginning of this year? [18:30] Hear the different criteria that make a good client. [22:52] Revelation of Rich’s “zoo”-like experience during the pandemic. [29:35] How to deal with ghosting from clients or candidates. [33:00] Key pointers in rapport building. [42:35] Sending a ‘breakup’ note to a candidate. [47:54] Rich’s favourite tools and tech for recruiters.
Consistent Repeat Clients and Referrals
Part of Rich’s success is getting most of his business from repeat clients and referrals. The partnership-focused spirit that he exudes as well as his approachable personality makes it easy for him to get repeat businesses. When I asked him about this, he shared a couple of key pointers.Doing the right business with the right people. Rich said, “For me, it’s all about working with good people. I have zero tolerance towards working with jerks and people that treat you like garbage.” He shared actual experiences on what types of clients he avoids. Being real with anyone. “I think I’m extremely real with everyone. I talk to everyone the same way whether you're the secretary or you're the CEO.” Hear how Rich relates this to having future referrals and how it can lead you to a ‘win in the end’.
Have You Been Ghosted? Here is How to Deal with It
Being ghosted by a client or a candidate can be frustrating, but this is something that a recruiter should expect to happen. Nowadays, it seems acceptable for some to just stop communicating without returning a call or providing honest feedback. Rich shared a very interesting experience during my interview and how he used a very unconventional way of addressing it.
I also asked Rich what we can do to minimize or deal with ghosting from clients or candidates. For Rich, it boils down to building trust and relationships. “I think all that you can do is to build that trust with your candidate, build the relationship up and you got to be more than just a recruiter.”
Listen to Rich’s viewpoint and how he further shared, from experience, ways in which he is able to build that trust and relationship with his candidates and clients.
Sending a Break-Up Email to a Candidate
How do you deal with a candidate who suddenly disappears and has lost interest? Hear best practices on communicating with such cases. Rich and I shared our approach and how you can keep future options open. Also, hear a piece of really insightful advice that was shared to Rich by an industry veteran with regard to “chasing” candidates.
Keeping Up with Technology
A big bonus in this episode is that Rich shared the tools he is using for CRM, campaign management, and all recruitment related tech tools you might have not heard before! Links are below, but hear how these tools can be effectively used.
Rich Rosen Bio and Contact Info
Rich is the president of Cornerstone Search, named by Forbes Magazine in the Top 20 Executive Search Firm in America for two years in a row. Rich has run his own recruiting firm for 25 years and is one of the top billers in the industry. Quietly billing $850k to a million dollars year after year from his home office in Boston. Rich has been a leading member of The Pinnacle Society, a consortium of the top 80 headhunters in the world, since 2016.Rich on LinkedIn Cornerstone Search website link Cornerstone on Facebook Cornerstone on Twitter @RichRoRecruiter
People and Resources MentionedChris Schoettelkotte on LinkedIn Outplay Email Campaign Manager website link Interseller website link Appsumo website link Clearout email validation website link WhoKnows website link Chatterworks website link Crystal Knows website link Traq365 website link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR#6 Habits of a Million-Dollar Biller, with Rich Rosen
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
When scaling your recruitment business, one of the biggest challenges you have most likely experienced is finding good recruiters to join your own team. In this episode, my very special guest, Leanne Jones Hunt, shares her unique perspective on recruiting recruiters based on having successfully placed over 700 recruiters with growing recruitment businesses.
Leanne is my Chief Operations Officer, and also a fellow coach here at Recruitment Coach. Leanne started her recruiting career in 2010, after completing her Master’s Degree in Law. Eventually, she launched her own recruitment agency in the recruitment to recruitment or “Rec to Rec” space which she ran for five years before entering the coaching industry.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:20] Leanne’s career highlights, including billing £47,000 in her first 5 weeks and being promoted to director within 12 months [5:55] What is “Rec to Rec”? [13:15] Discussion on career progression in the recruitment industry. [16:04] Characteristics of successful recruiters that business owners should look for [21:05] How Leanne started her own recruitment business at a very young age. [33:46] Business model: 180 vs 360 degree billers - which is better? [38:15] Effective assessment methods for recruiting recruiters. [45:00] Best practices for hiring great recruiters. [48:30] Improving your employee retention. [55:05] Resilience: What was Leanne’s biggest challenge in her recruitment business?
The Challenge of Recruiting Recruiters
What are the characteristics of successful recruiters that business owners should look for when they are hiring for their own teams? Indeed, one of the ironies in the recruitment industry especially for growing businesses is that it can be challenging to find and recruit good recruiters. Having been a top-performing recruiter herself, as well as running her own recruitment agency and placing recruiters with some of the fastest-growing recruitment companies in the country, Leanne is well placed to provide perspectives on the characteristics of effective recruiters.
This is how Leanne puts it, “There are quite a few different traits that make up a good recruiter. But for me, it was work ethic and urgency.” During our interview, Leanne shared her own experience and how it shaped her mindset on why she places such value on work ethic and having a sense of urgency.
Leanne encourages business owners to think beyond the typical profile of salesy, extrovert types who are very confident, maybe with a background as a real estate agent or telesales.
“Throughout my career, I tried to challenge the status quo and it did work.” Leanne gave an example of someone she placed who was celebrating their 7th anniversary with the company who broke the mould of what a stereotypical recruiter looks like.
Assessment Methods: How to Ensure You Hire the Right Person for Your Growing Recruitment Business
What are some of the most effective assessment methods when hiring a good recruiter? Having a thorough hiring process can definitely help when increasing the success rate and retention of new recruiters. So based on experience, what are the best hiring processes that Leanne has seen when working in the recruitment space? Some of her top methods include:Introduce a working interview/trial day as a stage in the hiring process Focus on assessing their skills, not just a subjective decision based on the way they come across Develop a structured training program
Listen to the full interview to hear other takeaways, especially on mistakes and success factors when scaling your business and growing your team of recruiters.
Leanne Sara Jones Hunt Bio and Contact Info
Leanne Sara Jones Hunt is our Chief Operations Officer here at Recruitment Coach. Prior to joining forces with Mark, Leanne worked in the recruitment-to-recruitment space in London for 10+ years and placed over 700 recruiters with some of the fastest-growing recruitment companies in the UK.
She ran her own successful recruitment-to-recruitment business, Excell Jones, for 5 years which placed trainees/graduates into the recruitment arena. Before starting her own business, Leanne rapidly progressed from graduate trainee all the way to director. She has performed every role from office manager, resourcer, 360 recruiter and billing manager. As a manager, she created extensive training manuals and developed multiple trainees from scratch who didn’t have any recruitment experience to become successful billing recruiters.
In addition to her role as COO, Leanne is also a Coach for our Inner Circle members, and is the resident ‘Queen of Automation’. She regularly shares the secrets on how she was able to claw back 30% of her time through implementing various automation processes, strategies and systems. Leanne has successfully hired, trained and managed teams of virtual assistants.
As well as holding the Inner Circle members accountable, and inspiring them to take action to implement strategies, Leanne is also able to share with our Inner Circle members how to hire and manage a remote team.Leanne on LinkedIn
Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Connect with Mark Whitby
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Success in your recruitment business requires a lot of effort and commitment. If you’re being honest with yourself, are you working too hard for too little return? What if you can still be successful, and at the same time spend time on things that matter most? My special guest, John Schlegel, openly shared strategies that helped him be truly successful in his solo-practice while “having a life.”
From mindset, and utilizing contract recruiters, to building meaningful business relationships, you will hear valuable insights and best practices that may help you balance work with your personal life. John is the CEO and Founder of Stonebridge Search in Austin, Texas. He places professionals in the financial advisory services arena, for global and boutique consulting firms, PE firms, investment banks and accountancy firms.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:42] How can a solo practitioner bill $700k+ and still have a life? John shares 4 key factors. [9:00] With no investment banking background, how did John become a strategic advisor in the financial services arena? [21:52] What made John decide to set up on his own? Hear the life changing events that led him to start his own recruiting practice under extremely challenging circumstances. [28:20] How joining the Pinnacle Society significantly impacted John’s business. [32:00] The mindset shift that leads to greater success. [34:40] Best practices for contract relationships and outsourcing (1099 arrangements). [46:20] With recruitment being really time consuming, how does John spend more time with his family? [51:02] Hear John’s two suggestions if you are working too hard to get things done.
Going Solo and Getting the Right Balance
How can a solo practitioner bill $700k+ and still have a life? John started his firm in 2009 and says it took a while to come up with the right mix and balance. Some of the successful strategies he put in place include:Focusing on these questions: How am I able to serve my clients better? What are my clients trying to accomplish? Forging relationships with contract recruiters. Transitioning to the position of a trusted advisor rather than a vendor.
Can you relate to the above practices? In our conversation, John further discussed specific steps he took in applying the above strategies.
Establishing Contract Recruiter Relationships
One of the major contributors to John’s success as a solo practitioner is his relationships with contract-based specialists. The core idea behind this strategy is to compute your yearly revenue, convert it into an hourly rate, then delegate tasks that would cost less than your own hourly rate, and focus more time on those activities that enable you to earn more revenue.
This is how John puts it: “One of the things that I learned from Jordan Rayboy, who is a great friend of mine… He shared this on the episode he is on with you, where he talks about if you make X amount per year, and you extrapolate those hours out that you are gonna work, say $300 an hour, what are the activities that are $300 or less that you are spending your time on every day? And I thought, he is right, I am spending 60% of my time on things that are less meaningful than I should be.”
Some of the practices he shared are employing seasoned specialists, utilizing 1099 arrangements, and splitting the fee. Listen to the interview with John for full details.
If You Are Working Too Hard...
So how do you get things done and spend more time on your personal well-being, family, and other meaningful non-business/work-related activities? I asked John what advice he can give to someone who is able to successfully attain his job targets but is working too hard. John shared two suggestions:Take inventory of how you are spending your time. Take inventory of your digital time.
Hear John’s experience on what made him focus only on tasks that are productive.
John Schlegel Bio and Contact Info
John Schlegel is the CEO and Founder of Stonebridge Search in Austin, TX. He places senior professionals in the financial advisory services arena, with specific expertise in service areas such as Valuation & Opinions, Dispute Consulting, Forensic Services, Restructuring & Turnaround, and Transaction Advisory. His clients include accounting firms, global and boutique consulting firms, private equity firms, and investment banks. In addition to John's search experience, he provides support for mergers and acquisitions within his specialty areas, both on the buy-side and sell-side.
John is a member of the prestigious Pinnacle Society, the premier consortium of 80 of the leading recruiters in North America. Membership is based upon the stringent criteria of verifiable industry success, ethical standards, expertise and experience.
John holds a B.A. in Public Relations from the Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communications at the University of Oklahoma. He lives in Austin with his wife and four children.John on LinkedIn Stonebridge Search website link
People and Resources MentionedJoe Rice on LinkedIn Jordan Rayboy on LinkedIn Pinnacle Society website link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR#55 How to Build (or Rebuild) Your Recruitment Firm to 7-Figures From Scratch, with Joe Rice TRR#46 How to Run a Million Dollar Recruiting Firm From Your RV, with Jordan Rayboy
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
As many parts of the economy open up again, recruiters are starting to see a surge in demand for talent. But don’t make the mistake of thinking this is a return to “business as usual.”
There are lessons to be learned from the pandemic, and important steps you must take to ensure you thrive in the coming hiring boom. If you go back to doing things exactly the same way you did before, we’ll miss out on the greatest opportunity in our lifetime to change some of the things we don’t like about recruitment.
That’s according to my special guest, Greg Savage who is making a repeat appearance on The Resilient Recruiter. Greg is of the most respected voices across the global recruitment industry, hear his insights on the pandemic, leadership, and reconfiguring the way you do your business.
With 40 years in recruitment, Greg is also the author of the Savage Truth which was published only about a year ago selling more than 10,000 copies - highlighting the loyal following he has built. If you have not been exposed to Greg’s no-nonsense approach to recruitment before, then you are in for a treat.
Episode Outline and Highlights3:00 Greg shares his perspective on the pandemic - who are those that dealt with it best? 13:06 The best lockdown marketing idea - “flipping the dynamics.” 22:44 Enduring lessons from the pandemic that recruiters must adopt as standard practice. 33:08 Are KPIs outdated? 38:30 What are the key characteristics and values that owners should be looking for in potential new hires recruiting now compared to what they looked for in the past? 47:25 Thoughts on reconfiguring the profile you look for when hiring rookie recruiters. 55:28 Greg revealed one very important element out of his 14 business pillars, “Leadership Style.”
Some Exemplary Performances From Recruitment Businesses in the Pandemic
When I launched this podcast in December 2019, I was very fortunate to have interviewed Greg in episode #1. Following up with him after more than a year, I am really keen to hear his perspectives on dealing with this crisis. In particular, I hoped he would be able to share examples of people or businesses rising to the occasion.
Greg has a unique vantage point as an advisor to and sitting on the board of, 14 different recruitment companies. How businesses reacted is comparable to the five stages of grief. Here are some key takeaways from him on how some businesses thrived during the pandemic:leadership behaviour played a key factor - those who reached the acceptance stage first were the most successful. understanding the concept of goodwill equity made a big difference. transparency, communication, becoming visible and valuable was really critical.
Best to hear directly from Greg both best and bad examples on how some leaders behaved when the pandemic and lockdowns took place.
What We Should Have Learned From the Pandemic
What are the enduring lessons we should learn from the pandemic as an industry? This is how Greg put it: “Well let me start with a rather cynical, but unfortunately true comment… Owners of recruitment companies will come out of this situation, so relieved that they have survived, so grateful that the markets are peaking up, but they will go back, Mark, and do everything exactly the way they did it before.”
This is where it gets more interesting, Greg continues: “Any second article you read on LinkedIn is about how the pandemic has changed recruitment. Absolute bullsh*t! It will not change it. But, the opportunity to reconfigure the way you do things, is HUGE. You can change, and I’ve got some great stories.”
Question from Our Listener
Prior to recording this episode, I asked connections on LinkedIn for questions I should be putting in to ask Greg. A very interesting question came from Greg Benadiba, who is the CEO of Bilingual Source. Now that we are entering a phase of renewed growth in the industry and owners are going to be hiring again, “What are the key characteristics and values that owners should be looking for on potential new hires in recruiting now, and how is that different to candidates they’ve hired in the past?”
Greg answered this question and very insightful pointers were shared. Here his response to our conversation.
Greg Savage Bio and Contact Info
After graduating with Honours in Psychology, Greg started his career in Executive Search in Australia, before he went on to manage the London office of the United Kingdom’s largest accounting recruiter for two years. In the early 1980s, he returned to Australia to run the Sydney office of Accountancy Placements (now the Hays Group), where he was invited to join the Board of Directors at age 27.
Greg founded Recruitment Solutions in 1987, and rapidly built the start-up across Australia and New Zealand, culminating in eight offices, 200 staff, and annual sales of $60,000,000. Such was Recruitment Solutions’ success that, in July 1998, the company was successfully listed on the Australian Stock Exchange, with Greg at its helm as both Executive Director and COO.
In April 2001, Greg joined Aquent as Asia-Pacific CEO. In 2005, he was promoted to Aquent International CEO and assumed responsibility for all Aquent businesses outside of North America, which then comprised over 25 offices across Europe, Asia, Australia and New Zealand.
In 2010 Greg acquired the Permanent and Search business of Aquent in Europe, Asia and Australasia, via a management buy-out, and founded Firebrand Talent Search. He quickly created a global brand for this specialist Digital and Marketing recruiter, and successfully sold the business, in 7 countries, in January 2013.
An active investor in recruitment businesses, Greg is a Founder and shareholder of people2people, one of Australia’s fastest growing recruitment companies, and also a Director and Chairman of New Zealand specialist Consult Recruitment. He also has involvement with many HR Tech related businesses including VideoMyJob and JobAdder
In recognition of his contribution to the Australian recruitment industry, Greg was made an Honorary Life Member of the Recruitment and Consulting Services Association (RCSA) in 2004. He was subsequently elevated to Fellow (FRCA).
In addition, Greg was the inaugural winner of the highly prestigious RCSA “Outstanding Contribution to the Recruitment Industry” Award 2011.
Recruitment Hall of Fame
In April 2018 Greg was inducted into the Recruitment International ‘Hall of Fame’ for his contribution and services to the recruitment industry
LinkedIn ‘Top Voices ‘2018.
Greg was named one of only 342 out of 550 Million LinkedIn members named as top influencers and for sparking professional conversations globally.Greg’s website link Greg on LinkedIn Greg on Facebook Greg on Twitter @greg_savage Greg on Instagram Greg on Youtube
People and Resources MentionedGreg Benadiba on LinkedIn The Best Crisis Business Development Idea I Have Ever Seen by G. Savage 14 Agency Recruitment Metrics to Run Your Business by G. Savage Thrive Webcast link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #1 The Future of Recruitment: Strategies To Stay Relevant and Effective, with Greg Savage TRR #14 How to Demonstrate Leadership in a Crisis with Greg Benadiba
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Are you a small to mid-sized recruiter who wants to beat the big boys and be recognized as a market leader? Or perhaps you’re super-ambitious and dream of expanding your recruitment business nationally or even globally?
In either case, you’re in for a treat as I interview Eloise Sutton Kirkby. Eloise is the Co-Founder and Director of Growth at Vincere, a market-leading all-in-one ATS CRM which is run by ex-recruiters. Vincere means “to win” or “conquer” in Latin, and they specialize in weaponizing recruiters through tech.
Eloise believes that recruitment technology levels the playing field for scrappy underdogs to win against their bigger competitors. In addition to her knowledge of recruitment technology and automation, Eloise shares her hard-won insights gleaned from scaling her company to 80 employees and offices in 5 countries.
Episode Outline and Highlights[3:10] Eloise’s recruitment career takes her from Leeds to Tokyo; why she and her partner Bernie Schiemer started a software company. [8:20] Recruitment technology: what is a “Frankenstack”? [11:40] Which of your recruitment and business processes should be automated? [13:40] Eloise’s entrepreneurial journey and scaling her software company to 80 people. [18:18] Discussing the pros and cons of setting up an office offshore. [24:55] Business challenges that Eloise faced being headquartered in Vietnam. [31:31] Inbound marketing strategies and building a personal brand on LinkedIn. [45:17] Dealing with adversity: Eloise shares the toughest experience she’s ever faced.
What Processes Should Be Automated with Recruitment Technology?
Being in the recruitment technology space, I asked Eloise if she can give an example of a workflow or part of the recruitment process that can be successfully automated. This is how she responded, “I think for mid-sized recruitment firms … the area of automation that is weak usually is between the front-middle-back office.”
She further elaborated, “Around your pay and bill systems, collecting of time from your candidates. Often what we see is that placement is made in the CRM, pushed out to the pay and bill software, and never seen in the CRM again. So the consultants don’t know if timesheets have been submitted if they are paid on that timesheets coming in and that is kind of important and that is just one example of how data is being siloed between different teams in a mid-sized organization.”
Inbound Marketing Strategies
Eloise and her team focused really heavily on product development with the sincere belief that word-of-mouth will do the marketing for them. Eloise recalls, “What we have really woken up to is the fact that we don’t really need to spend a lot in marketing. We don’t want to have a massive sales team, that is not us. What we do want to do is to have our customers not see us as a vendor, to see us as a partner and as part of that partnership, they will be our marketers.”
So what marketing strategies do they effectively employ? Some are as follows:Referral and reward system for their existing clients Content marketing via LinkedIn
Hear our discussion and sharing of practices on how to strategically use LinkedIn and other social media platforms.
Resilience in Adversity
I also took the opportunity to ask Eloise on what would be the most challenging experience and how she faced the challenge. She shared a very moving personal story which I believe you will find interesting. Best to hear it from Eloise in this episode.
Eloise Sutton Kirkby Bio and Contact Info
Eloise is the Co-founder and Director of Growth for Vincere, an all-in-one platform for recruitment and staffing agencies worldwide. She started her career in recruitment as a consultant with Michael Page in the financial sector. She had experience working in Leeds, Tokyo, Singapore, and is now based in Saigon.
Eloise is also the host of the Contract Recruiter Podcast which focuses on the world of Contract Recruitment.Eloise on LinkedIn Vincere website link Vincere on Youtube Contract Recruiter Podcast link
People and Resources MentionedBernie Schiemer on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Why do companies struggle to hire female executives? How can we, as recruiting professionals, help our clients to address the gender-gap particularly in C-suite level searches? What steps can be taken toward a long-term solution?
By sharing her own experience, my special guest Venesa Klein gives her take on how businesses and organizations can make a meaningful, long-term impact on the gender-gap at executive levels. Venesa is a partner at Calibre One, a leading executive search boutique with offices in San Francisco, London, New York, and Singapore. Based in LA, Venesa manages the Women Board Member Recruiting as well as Diversity Recruiting specializing in VP and C-level searches for consumer internet, e-commerce, CPG and category-defining tech companies.
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:48] Why do companies struggle to hire female executives? [5:38] What is the long-term solution to close the gender gap into recruiting C-suite levels? [10:08] Are your clients serious about addressing the gender gap in your organization or just playing lip service? Venesa shared the signs to distinguish which is which. [21:00] Venesa shares her own experience in balancing motherhood with work during the pandemic. [30:34] Critical roles husbands play for their working partners. [34:00] How boundaries and flexibility in schedule contribute to actively working mothers. [38:00] What could companies do to get an edge in attracting women top talents? [42:50] Venesa shares her experience in helping out build Google’s internal executive search function. [49:59] Hear our discussion on effective tools and recruitment technology.
Addressing the Gender Gap: Small Steps for a Long-Term Strategy
As businesses and companies focus on gender diversity, it can be a challenge to close the gender gap. The reason? Venesa said, “That is the important question, what is the strategy? What is the long game? I think that’s the piece that companies are missing, is it’s very reactionary to pressure from aboard, you know social media pressure...We need to think much bigger than that.”
Although it can be difficult, Venesa laid out a few solutions as a starting point to address the challenge of closing the gender gap, especially in C-suite levels by creating pathways for women to progress within their respective organizations. Some of the pointers are as follows:Recruiting women early and often into entry-level roles and defining career paths for them. Providing mentorship opportunities. Moving them through the organization in a thoughtful and structured way.
Venesa also added, “You have to have a strong HR function that is thinking this through with you.”
A Roller-Coaster Ride
One of the life-changing events that Venesa shared is her “jolting experience” of motherhood and how she was able to balance it with work. While everybody has a different experience, becoming a mom (especially during the pandemic) was a wake-up call for Venesa. This is how she describes it, “I know that when I became a mom, it had felt like it wasn’t talked about. I don’t know whether because I didn’t have children or I wasn’t just tuned in to the conversation or that the conversations just weren’t happening.”
Some of the challenges she relayed, on which some of our listeners may be able to strongly relate to are:From work being the priority and the ability to work all hours to having finite stop-start working hours and feeling exhausted. The challenge of focusing at work with so little sleep like it was survival mode. The challenge of spending as much time with children as possible while being an effective business partner.
Have you had the same struggles when juggling work with motherhood?
Business Best Practices to Attain Female Top Talent
What can give a business an edge in terms of employing female top talents? Based on Venesa’s experience, it really is important for a business to take care not only of their female employees but also their employees’ relationships with their children. Some of the best practices mentioned would be offering reimbursement for childcare or offering childcare onsite. Also, measuring success and accomplishment based on outcome rather than time spent is a significant factor to offer them flexibility.
Venesa Klein Bio and Contact Info
Venesa Klein is an executive talent recruiter and Partner at Calibre One, a leading transatlantic executive search boutique. Since 2007, Venesa has helped some of the world's most successful companies build out the critical leadership teams that drive their success. Her robust network of C-Suite and VP-level executives make her a highly sought-after full-cycle recruiter across a portfolio of consumer internet, eCommerce, CPG, and category-defining technology companies.
As a Partner at Calibre One, Venesa founded its Purpose-Driven Practice, which focuses on placing executives in growing organizations seeking to create innovation with meaningful impact. Her empathy-forward personality along with her strategic thinking has enabled her to work with Google, Thinx, Rev.com, Mixbook, among others, to identify and recruit essential leaders in operations, marketing, and human resources. Before joining Calibre One, Venesa was the Senior Recruiter at MarketTools a 500 person enterprise technology and services company where she was responsible for the recruiting function internationally. She was also a consultant at Google where she was responsible for building out their internal executive search function and was The Consumer Practice Leader at The Pacific Firm.
Outside of work, Venesa is actively involved in various roles within a number of animal welfare, environmental, and educational charities. Her commitment to philanthropy and her two young children keep her quite busy. She splits her time between Northern and Southern California.Venesa on LinkedIn Venesa’s website link Calibre One website link
People and Resources Mentioned“So you want to hire a woman onto your C-Suite? Here’s why you won’t get one..” article link Helen McGuire on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #57 Diversity as a Differentiator – How Recruiters Can Attract 70% More Diverse Talent, with Helen McGuire
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
While most recruitment companies revenue and profits were down during the Covid-19 crisis, Andersen James Group revenue grew by 35%. In this interview, I asked Managing Director, James Leighton, how they achieved this remarkable result in an extremely challenging climate.
One of the key themes that emerged from our conversation was “client partnerships.” For James, this isn’t an abstract concept -- it’s core to his business strategy. Their new Strategic Partnerships business model was one of the key factors that enabled them to grow during the Covid-19 pandemic.
This isn’t to say it was easy. There were some significant challenges along the way. As you are about to hear, Andersen James met these challenges by bringing a lot of innovation and creativity to recruitment within the property and construction sectors. If you like hearing about fresh ideas and different ways of partnering with clients, you are going to enjoy this episode.
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:40] James shares his motivation and a bit of history of the Andersen James Group [5:05] How having an internal recruiter talent acquisition experience shaped James’ mindset on outsourced recruitment. [8:03] Strategic Partnership - how the Andersen James Group embraced the partnership approach during the covid crisis. [20:15] Discussion on recruitment metrics and tracking mechanisms. [23:32] Three key factors in growing profit by 35% during covid. [29:44] The difficulty of splitting from a business partner - James shared his experience. [35:22] Removing himself from billing and focusing on the business - what triggered James to take this decision and how it was a game-changer. [39:33] The benefits of hosting webinars for your market [51:01] How James’ group invested in marketing [53:30] What would you do if a client went bust on you? Learn from James’ experience. [1:00:00] Selecting a good business partner.
Experience From Both Sides of the Fence
Prior to becoming a recruitment business owner, James had experience in internal recruitment talent acquisition. This valuable experience gave him an insight into how recruiters are perceived, what they do best for their clients, and what could be further improved from a client’s point of view. Hear out what he thinks that recruiters should understand in working with clients and how to ultimately make the working relationship better.
Embracing the Partnership Approach
During the pandemic, James’ business was able to sustain significant growth by investing heavily in technology and innovation. One of these innovations was adapting an approach based on partnership.
Going for a partnership approach with your clients can be challenging but this was not the case for James’ company. They have adapted a Strategic Partnership model that gives their client a different way of recruiting. If explained briefly, this is how their business model works:Outsourced recruitment function with a monthly retainer fee Dedicated heads provided for their client - with a profit margin per head Offering efficiency of cost for the client by providing them an internal recruitment team Internal feel of a recruitment team with an external presence in the market
How does the program work for their clients and their company? What inspired the idea? Listen to the answers from James in this episode.
Growing the Profit by 35% During Covid
While most recruitment companies are losing around 40% in profit during the pandemic, it was the opposite for Andersen James as they actually grew their profit by 35%! What are the key factors that contributed to this success? James mentioned at least three, which is heavily investing on:Extensive training for employees Technology - e.g. CRM system Marketing
Sharing Best Practices During Covid
Last year, James did a series of webinars with two main intentions - to create case studies and share best practices with their market. Why did he do it? Rather than just write a case study, they created events to share how they’ve solved certain problems and show the market exactly what it is that they’ve done. James explains the success of this education-based marketing strategy: “there were 900 people to the first one, 500 people to the previous one, and it was really targeted.”
James Leighton Bio and Contact Info
James Leighton is a Managing Director of Andersen James Group. Andersen James was born out of a desire to bring innovation and creativity to recruitment within the property and construction sector. Their passion lies in offering added value to their customers. They offer best practice advice and support in the design and implementation of market leading recruitment campaigns and programmes that will not only attract and recruit the best talent but also retain and re-energise existing teams. With the launch of the new Strategic partnerships business when Covid struck, growing that to 3 big contract wins, re-aligning our sales vision and further niching their business into a Housing Specialist across the UK, they have set up really well with the right platform and infrastructure to scale up their businessJames on LinkedIn Andersen James Group website link Andersen James Group on LinkedIn
People and Resources MentionedKevin Redman on LinkedIn Greg Savage on LinkedIn Joel Slenning on LinkedIn Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't by Jim Collins Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #41 Dare to Be Different – How to Create Your Unique Value Proposition, with Kevin Redman and Matt Halfpenny TRR #53 How to Scale Your Staffing & Recruiting Firm to $16,000,000, With Joel Slenning
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
As we are gearing towards the post-covid environment, we need to keep up with technological and industrial trends to remain relevant. Have you heard of On-Demand Recruiting? Would you like to know about the “Tinderization” of the recruitment process? Listen in to this episode as my special guest, Evan Sohn, shares how their platform intends to disrupt the recruitment continuum using technology and AI platforms.
Evan is the Chairman and CEO of Recruiter.com which is a hiring platform for the world’s largest network of recruiters. They empower businesses to recruit specialized talents faster with virtual teams of recruiters, AI job matching, and video technology. Evan is an experienced entrepreneur and he is an executive or advisor to multiple companies. Typically disruptive technologies and industries such as online marketplaces, payments, instant messaging, data security and mobile computing.
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:40] Why the need for the recruitment industry to change in a post-covid world. [7:13] Evan discusses how Recruitment.com is impacting recruitment with technology. [13:15] Disrupting the recruitment continuum and shifts we should make post-covid. [19:45] How the video-first process can significantly change the recruitment industry. [32:10] Headhunting and technology: expediting the process. [38:16] Do technology platforms ‘dehumanize’ the recruitment process? [44:53] What is on-demand recruiting? [46:50] What are the trends and challenges coming up in order to get better as an industry? [53:00] The Sohn Conference Foundation
The “Tinderization” of Recruiting
Discussing the need for the recruitment industry to change in a post-covid world, what shift do we need to make?
Evan first talked about the recruitment continuum: post a job, collect resumes, review resumes, phone screen, interview, and hire. With the advancement of online technology, how did the recruitment process adapt? The job board got digitized. Resume collection and reviews have been automated using AI technology. Phone screen and interview is now done online via video screening and interviews. Even documentation is now done online. However, looking at the process, essentially the continuum is still the same.
He then mentioned how platforms like Tinder and Matched.com created an approach that can be applied to the recruitment industry, speeding up the process with better results.
Here is how Evan put it: “I actually think that video first, is really gonna transform this whole industry. I’m gonna post up a job, I’m going to look at videos and there’s gonna be this transaction very much like the Tinderization of recruiting. I’m going to look at a resume, I’m going to look at a video of a candidate, if I’m interested in them, I’m gonna swipe left. They will get a notification that there’s a job, do they want to see it? If they are interested, fantastic I will move on from there. We have seen internally, video screening, shorten the entire end to end process” Hear how this method worked amazingly for Recruiter.com.
Can Too Much Technological Disruption “Dehumanize” the Recruitment Industry?
Looking at automated recruitment platforms online, we cannot rule out the possibility of eliminating the ‘human factor’ in the process. With aggregated resumes and talent pools available online on these platforms, a client can simply submit his requirements for a certain candidate and simply wait for potential candidates.
Could this discourage them from speaking to a recruiter or recruitment specialist? Would too much technological disruption ‘dehumanize’ and negatively impact the industry? Here is what Evan thinks. “We are really an on-demand platform for recruiters. So what we are really doing now is we bring opportunities to recruiters, on-demand. The recruiters are paid, either by the hour, by project, by success, but our fastest growing area is really on-demand recruiters. We really believe our mandate - ‘recruit talent faster and better.” He then added, “I think the shift that we are gonna start to see is recruiters being treated not like a real estate broker… recruiters are not a real estate broker, they are an attorney. They should be treated as a doctor, they should be treated as a specialist… the human element of recruiting, is a professional, is a serious professional.”
In our conversation, Evan acknowledged the critical role of the “human element” in recruitment and aims to transition to a point where recruiters are perceived as serious professionals with extensive expertise in understanding the needs of their clients and candidates. In creating a platform like recruitment.com, the objective is to give opportunities to small and independent recruiters and empower them.
The Sohn Conference Foundation
While building a career growing and advising businesses in the technology sector, Evan co-founded the Ira Sohn Conference Foundation in honor of his brother, a Wall Street professional who lost his battle with cancer at age 29. Now in 11 cities, 10 countries, and 5 continents, they have now raised more than 90 Million USD for pediatric oncology. If you also wish to make a serious impact on children, please refer to the link in the below section to know how you can help.
Evan Sohn Bio and Contact Info
Chairman and CEO of Recruiter.com. Evan is a veteran entrepreneur and visionary executive and expert in disruptive technologies in industries as far as wide as online marketplaces, payments, Wi-Fi and Instant Messaging data security, handheld development, and mobile computing. Most recently the Vice President Sales, North America Financial Services for Poynt (acquired by GoDaddy in 2020), a silicon valley company building and deploying the world’s first open smart terminal. Through Evan’s efforts, Poynt went from $0 in revenue to over $30M in the 3 years that he was at Poynt. Separately, Evan has been a dedicated and energetic advocate of a cure for pediatric cancer for almost 25 years. While building a career growing and advising businesses in the technology sector, Evan co-founded the Ira Sohn Conference Foundation in honor of his brother, a Wall Street professional who lost his battle with cancer at age 29. The Foundation has expanded its reach to include conferences in Australia, Canada, Hong Kong, India, London, San Francisco, San Paolo, Sydney, Tel Aviv and Toronto. To date, the Conferences have raised over $90million towards pediatric cancer and other childhood diseases.Evan on LinkedIn Evan on Twitter @esohn Recruiter.com platform link Recruiter.com Facebook Community link
People and Resources MentionedThe Sohn Conference website link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
“The big hypocrisy of our industry is that we hire all these people for our clients yet we suck at hiring people for ourselves.”
If you agree with this statement, then you’ll love the directness and honesty of my podcast guest Monte Merz. Listen in as he shares his secrets to hiring recruitment rockstars - from the interview process, training, coaching and compensation. Hear why his firm has won multiple awards for being one of the best companies to work for in Denver and one of the fastest-growing companies in the United States.
Monte is the managing partner of High Country Group in Denver, Colorado. The group has 23 members of staff including 18 fee earners and is comprised of several different divisions: Energy Search, Executive Search, Tech Search and Staffing. Prior to launching the business in 2002, Monte spent 8 years working for some of the biggest recruiting firms in the world - from running a desk to becoming a Regional VP.
Episode Outline and Highlights[4:09] Monte’s “accidental tourist” story of starting his recruitment career [11:00] How Monte was promoted and fired on the same day, leading him to start his own recruiting firm [15:35] What is the “leaky bucket theory”? [17:05] Why High Country had a terrible first year in business and the actions Monte took to turn things around. [25:03] Using a process that works - Monte’s “Funnel # Plus” model. [32:18] Hear Monte’s approach to job sustainability and compensation plan. [37:04] Monte’s firm has an exceptional “per desk average” with the majority of his recruiters billing over $300,000 per year. Hear how he recruits and keeps good people. [47:30] How to recognize a rockstar - hear the qualities you should look for. [50:47] Monte’s long-term vision for his firm.
How Monte Started
Monte considers himself an accidental tourist when it comes to his recruitment career. A farm kid in Nebraska, he wanted to move to Colorado. An interview for a recruitment job gave him the opportunity he was looking for. He started running a desk and soon became a top biller in the region. What made him perform so well? The same qualities made him successful as a high-level college wrestler. His work ethic, ability to learn, leadership qualities, and having a logical approach when dealing with people. Hear his story of how he managed to get himself hired, promoted, and fired on the same day.
The “Leaky Bucket” Theory
How much do you spend on marketing for your recruitment firm? Monte believes that what makes his business successful is being really good at what they do, which is finding people. He then explained the “leaky bucket” theory:
“If you are just going out at full speed, like a, name the national, you know they’ve got 10 to 20 holes in their buckets where they are just constantly losing their clients by not delivering. You are always gonna be losing a client but if you only have like, one or two holes in your bucket, you just do really good work, and you are doing direct source recruiting and referral-based recruiting and just doing it right, there is always gonna be a spot for that.”
The Funnel-Pound-Plus Approach
Every recruiter and business owner has a business system that works for them. When hiring someone, his training is focused on keeping it short and would focus on his system or approach. Here is how Monte shared his funnel # + approach, summarized verbally:What to do (funnel) How much to do (#) How to not kill each other while you do it (plus)
During our conversation, he explains in detail how this system works and how he does the knowledge transfer to his new team members. When coaching and communicating with his recruiters, he has always been objective but solution-oriented.
A Sustainable Compensation Plan
Monte shared a simple, yet very effective approach to compensation:
“My comp plan is, I have a very aggressive comp plan. I figure that I want to pay people at such a high level that I’m never gonna lose somebody because somebody else offers them more.
If you are successful, you will never leave. If you are not being successful after a year or so … I am not the “hire slow, fire fast” guy. I am a “hire slow, fire slow” person. You can’t get fired around here for not billing. You can resign if you are not making the money you want. You don’t get fired for not billing, you can only be fired for being an A-hole.”
And the key to success? “if you do enough interviews, enough send-outs, and enough job orders, you will be successful.”
How to Look for a Rockstar
I am sure you would agree with Monte’s statement: “The big hypocrisy of our industry is that we hire all these people for people yet we suck in hiring people.” Monte’s average tenure is 18 years, and a big proportion of his people are in the “excellent” range. He shared some of his practices:Being upfront in the interview process Quality vs Quantity - “I would rather have 18 to 20 rock stars than a hundred idiots” Hire 1 to get 1, instead of the usual practice of hiring 10 to get 2.
Listen to how he interviews potential team members.
Monte Merz Bio and Contact Info
Monte Merz is the Founder and Managing Partner of The High Country Search Group. Originally from Nebraska, he moved to Denver in 1994 and got started in the Recruiting Industry at the tender age of 25. Recruiting came pretty naturally and after three years of being the top Finance and Accounting biller for the national recruiting firm everyone knows, he chose to move into a management role with another national recruiting firm everyone knows. Five years of management experience there resulted in explosive growth, unbelievable experience (good and bad), and a series of promotions that brought him responsibility for multiple offices and a Regional VP title…. as well as some internal intellectual conflict as to whether continuing down the path of the large National Recruiting firm model was really the best long term solution for him (or his teams).
In February of 2002, Monte managed to get himself promoted and subsequently fired for lack of enthusiasm for the aforementioned promotion, all in the same day… and The High Country Search Group was born. Having sworn off management and being responsible for people for good, Monte embarked on a solo recruiting career he promised would expand no further than the breakfast nook in his kitchen.
Fifteen years later, High Country has 23 employees, three Perm Groups, a Staffing Group, and multiple local and national awards for both “Fastest Growing” and “Best Company to Work For” and Monte has clearly failed on his promise to stay a simple little one-man shop.
How did this happen? He kept his promise to stay simple, it just didn’t stay a one-man shop. Simple rules, consistent execution, and almost zero turnovers lead to slow but steady growth and a local shop doing more than 10 Million Dollars in annual Revenue… and a 15-year overnight success story sort of just happened.
A farm kid from Nebraska, Monte was a 2-time All-American and 2-time Academic All-American Collegiate wrestler. He was a Volunteer Graduate Assistant Wrestling Coach for the Iowa Hawkeyes, and in 2016 at age 46, clocked his first sub-3 hour marathon at the 2016 Boston Marathon. Don’t be overly fooled by the country jargon, he’s about as laid back as it comes, but at the end of the day, he’s an incredibly competitive, process-driven, numbers guy. And, if you give him a listen, you might just find some simple wisdom that resonates.Monte on LinkedIn High Country Search Group website link
People and Resources MentionedJordan Rayboy on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #46 How to Run a Million Dollar Recruiting Firm From Your RV, with Jordan Rayboy
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Like most recruiters, Norwood Staffing’s sales took a nosedive in March 2020.
They were coming off a record year, having achieved growth of 504% in 2019. That trend looked set to continue and the business was booming at the beginning of 2020. Suddenly in March, the Coronavirus hit and sales came crashing back down to earth. From averaging 60 recs in Q1, they went to zero jobs in Q2.
Yet in spite of a terrible Q2 and Q3, Norwood Staffing bounced back and went on to have a record year with revenue growth of 891%. Listen into my interview with Norwood’s founder and president, Justin Satterfield as he explains the factors that contributed to their extraordinary come back.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:01] How Norwood Staffing dealt with the pandemic after a strong 2019. [8:30] Hiring more people while your revenue is decreasing - what was Justin thinking? [16:05] Justin reveals how he got 891% revenue growth during the pandemic. [23:04] Insightful idea on managing your team in a difficult time. [27:33] Physical conferences vs. virtual events - which would you prefer? [36:46] What was Justin’s biggest challenge in growing his business? [43:05] Continuous growth: Norwood Staffing’s mid and long term plans. [48:52] Recruiting recruiters: 4 keys to attracting and retaining the best people [57:55] What’s Justin reading? Here are his latest book recommendations.
How Justin Grew Revenue by 891% During the Pandemic
In our last conversation beginning of the year 2020, Justin and I talked about how he built his company close to a million dollars in the first three years before the pandemic. Justin shared, “We were really coming out of a strong 2019, I was very excited about 2020. Twenty-nineteen was our first year to have a team… we grew 504% that year. So going into 2020 I’m pumped, right? This is just going to be an incredible year.”
Then the coronavirus pandemic hit. This is how he described the impact “Rolling into Q1, we were averaging 60+ recs on the board, we were doing absolutely fantastic, really moving along. Then March came. A lot of people were like, ‘Oh, you’re in healthcare, I’m sure staffing is great in healthcare.’ No. No, it wasn’t.” From averaging 60 recs, they went to zero jobs in Q2.
How did Justin adapt to the challenge? It started with his mindset. “This is where real business leaders are defined. There is always an opportunity, no matter what the market is.” He considered the market at the time as a ‘great time to hire.’ He focused on the opportunity and built his team. Having grown by 504% in 2019, they achieved another record year in 2020 growing by 891%!
Be the Positive in Someone’s Day
One of the main contributors to Norwood Staffing’s incredible growth during the recession is the relationships they were able to build pre-pandemic. As it was really difficult to start new contracts last year, Justin’s approach was simple, “it was really just sticking to the folks that we already built relationships with and vetting that out. Really not much more to it.”
Referring to the relationships he build over the years, how did Justin keep in touch without seeming too “salesy” or just asking for business? Justin shared, “Picking up a phone and having a conversation. Everybody was having a tough time… be a human. Let’s have a conversation, be the positive in someone’s day.”
Hiring Process to Bring in the Best Recruiters
Recruiting & staffing firm owners know how difficult it can be to hire superstar recruiters for your own team. We discussed the high attrition rate that is common in our industry and how Justin focuses on hiring rockstars and retaining them for the long term. Justin shared his best practices:Maintain a really good brand Pay your people well Treating people like adults Vet out the candidate’s personality and philosophy
Considering the finite talent pool of experienced top-performers, how is Justin able to build his team of superstars remotely? Listen to the full interview to learn Justin’s strategy!
Justin Satterfield Bio and Contact Info
Justin Satterfield has always been a huge people-person, and the notion that the good life is built with good relationships is the foundation of his personal philosophy and lifestyle. Whether he is spending time with a close friend or meeting someone in passing, he cherishes good conversation and revels in the opportunity to make a lasting memory. Justin was also the kid loading up his lunchbox with candy from home and selling it at school in the 3rd grade (great margins, thanks Mom!).
So, it is no surprise that he now works in an industry where his love for people and business is a happy marriage. Knowing his efforts impact the bottom line and coaching the talent he works with to attain the unattainable is what motivates him to bring his maverick personality to seek mastery in this ever-evolving industry.
After gaining valuable experience with a start-up staffing agency, he joined one of the largest firms in the nation where he climbed to the top 4% in the company across all industries in less than two years. He was a key contributor in taking a relatively new HIM staffing team from the start-up phase to the highest-grossing team in the company. Creating a new business with over 150 hospitals and 5 consulting groups across 27 states, he gained the experience, knowledge and reputation he needed to pursue his own dreams — Welcome to Norwood Staffing Solutions.
Founded in 2016, Norwood has remained privately owned with no investors, partnerships or financial backing. His bootstrapped company is quickly becoming a well-known competitor in the industry supporting a number of large health systems nationally with trusted sourcing and successful placements.Justin on LinkedIn Justin (at) NorwoodStaffing.com Justin’s company: Norwood Staffing
People and Resources MentionedAbid Hamid on Linked James Cann on LinkedIn Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of NIKE The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom, Jonathan Haidt Rocket Fuel: The One Essential Combination That Will Get You More of What You Want from Your Business, Gino Wickman and Mark C. Winters Trillion Dollar Coach: The Leadership Playbook of Silicon Valley's Bill Campbell Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #5 How Justin Satterfield Hit $1M Within 2 Years of Starting A Recruitment Agency TRR #48 Recruitment Entrepreneur: How to Start-Up and Scale an “Exit-able” Recruitment Business, with Abid Hamid
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
Your recruiting clients are increasingly aware of the commercial benefits of recruiting a diverse workforce. That means they will soon expect and require their recruitment partners to be capable of delivering a diverse shortlist.
Merely claiming to be a champion of D&I isn’t enough -- clients want to see evidence that you have a process in place to deliver diverse talent. The recruiters who are able to demonstrate this capability will differentiate themselves in the marketplace and steal a march on their competitors.
To discuss how recruiters can achieve this, I invited entrepreneur Helen McGuire to join me on The Resilient Recruiter podcast.
Helen is the CEO and Co-Founder of Diversely.io, an end-to-end hiring platform that uses tech to reduce bias in the hiring process for businesses. As an award-winning entrepreneur in the diversity space, she founded the first women’s careers platform in the Middle East – Hopscotch – in 2016, which grew to a worldwide community of over 80,000 working with businesses like Facebook, Mastercard and Nestle, and expanding to Singapore in 2018.
Helen began her career in London, achieving her dream role at BBC Radio 1 in her early twenties producing award-winning shows for the likes of John Peel, Mary Anne Hobbs and Gilles Peterson. Concurrently, Helen presented her own monthly radio programme - Join The-Dots - airing in over 15 countries globally, DJ’d and wrote for top music publications and travelled the world interviewing artists. Helen was the first female resident DJ at Club 360 in Dubai and still occasionally DJ’s to this day.
Episode Outline and Highlights[2:00] Helen shares how they were awarded HRM Asia’s Top 3 Tech Start-Ups 2020. [4:15] How to check your diversity score online. [6:00] Approaching the diversity space from a technology perspective. [12:08] Unconscious bias - why should we care? [14:51] Sourcing - how to attract more candidates by changing your language [19:24] How Helen turned a massive idea into a product. [25:06] Helen shares the process of getting funding for her business [32:18] Helen reveals by far the biggest challenge that she had to overcome. [40:15] Juggling your tasks - starting a business and having a work-life balance.
Approaching the Diversity Space - from a Technology Point of View
Working in the diversity space for about six years, Helen shared what drove her passion. When she had her first baby in 2014, she very quickly realized that a lot of women (colleagues, friends) were frustrated and had to end their career - for the reason that employers could not think a little more outside the box and offer flexible working schedules to their tenured female staff members.
This moved her to create an award-winning women's careers platform - Hopscotch. The initial aim was to find women more flexibility in their careers but ended up being helpful to women of all professions. Growing rapidly, the platform gained around 80,000 in their network! With this initiative, Helen had three realizations:Diversity around women - not everybody was open to thinking about things differently The impact of unconscious bias - not only women are affected Despite the reach, she felt that she is only making a very minimal impact
This lead Helen to look for a deeper and wide-ranging solution to address the above problem.
Diversity in Sourcing - Adapting your Language
Here is something really interesting. Did you know that during sourcing, changing your language can attract 70% more diverse candidates and twice as many candidates with the skillset that you’re looking for?
Here is how Helen explained it: “Think about it from a day to day perspective. If you are speaking to your grandma, if you are speaking to a child, if you are speaking to your boss, if you are speaking to your friends, you don’t use the same language right? You don’t talk to them in exactly the same way. You use language that they understand, that helps you to have a conversation with them, that helps you to have something in common with them. The same is true when you’re sourcing.”
Listen to what else she said to support this fantastic concept and how to adapt your language to your potential candidates.
Helen McGuire Bio and Contact Info
Helen McGuire is the CEO and Co-Founder of Diversely.io, an end-to-end hiring platform that uses tech to reduce bias in the hiring process for businesses. To scale the impact of her work Helen joined the renowned tech start-up accelerator programme, Antler, in January 2020 and the idea for Diversely was born. Joining forces with her Diversely co-founder and CPO, Hayley Bakker, in April of the same year, the vision for the company is to reduce workplace bias for all those from under-represented groups - not just women – by creating a scalable, global solution through the use of AI-driven tech. The company successfully completed its pre-seed round in November of 2020 and has a five-strong team working to deliver online solutions for its clients in beta, with a full launch expected in Q2 2021. Helen’s focus is on the marketing, content and sales side of the business and she regularly speaks globally on the topics of diversity, equality and inclusion.
Helen is also a mother of three young children - Clementine (6), Arlo (4) and Iris (2) and lives with her husband, Justin, and their English bulldog, Percy, in Singapore. She is a passionate speaker, writer and photographer, a proud part-time vegan and loves fashion, horses and travel.Helen on LinkedIn Diversely website link
People and Resources MentionedJustine McGuire on LinkedIn Nikki Dallas on LinkedIn Hayley Bakker on LinkedIn Jonathan Coxon on LinkedIn Alex Elliot on LinkedIn Antler website link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Related Podcast You Might Enjoy TRR #42 Childhood Friends Who Are Building a Global Recruitment Empire with Offices in 10 Countries, with Dan Matthews and Justin McGuire TRR # 2 Setting Up A Recruitment Business For Scale with Jonathan Coxon and Alex Elliot
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter
If you’ve ever faced major challenges, disappointments or setbacks in your recruitment career, you’ll really relate to and enjoy my interview with Will Bourne.
Will is the founder of Rekall Consulting, a recruiting firm based in Birmingham specializing in talent acquisition outsourcing for startup and scaleup technology companies. He is a former competitive martial artist, he has been in the recruiting industry for 10 years and recently launched his own business. He’s the author of a new book, “The Fight for Your Life.”
In this conversation, Will is totally open and honest about his struggle with mental health issues. Although it’s slowly getting better, the recruitment industry's competitive culture hasn’t always been conducive to mental health and wellbeing. To hear more about this very important topic, listen in as Will reveals how the biggest fight of his life wasn’t in the dojo or in the ring - it was with depression and anxiety. He hopes that by sharing his personal experience, it might help at least one person. Maybe that person is you?
Episode Outline and Highlights[1:20] Will’s amazing story - from quitting school to starting a technology recruitment business. [12:30] Competitive martial arts and its crossover with recruiting. [26:14] Will opens up about mental health - from being a successful top-biller to having a mental breakdown and then rebuilding his physical and mental health. [30:36] Will talks about his book, “The Fight for Your Life” [38:00] How modifying your self-talk and being aware of the words you use habitually can help your mental health. [45:00] Will discusses his work with the mental health charity, Mind.org. [47:09] Is the recruiting industry’s culture prone to mental health issues? [52:10] Will’s business model and hitting his 12-month goal within 90 days
From Leaving School Early to Succeeding in Recruitment
Interesting is an understatement to discuss Will’s story on how he got to his current recruitment career path. Will left school early, feeling that the traditional education system wasn’t for him. His first job was washing cars. Motivated by his brother, he went back to college and completed his high-school education and enrolled in university. At the time that he was also competing in martial arts - he still felt that university life was not for him and left after a year.
He then landed a job at a bank, from a telesales position to being promoted to a management role. He then left a very secure position with the bank to pursue a recruitment career, starting back at the bottom as a candidate sourcer. Was all the risk he took to walk away from everything and re-start his career worth it at that point? What were the mistakes he made and what did he learn from them?
A Healthy Discussion on Mental Health
“I never really gave mental health a second thought… it wasn’t even on my radar. One of the biggest things I’ve learned is that nobody’s safe from it… mental health is still one of the most sensitive things that you can try and protect.”
Recalling his experience, Will shares the three separate life events that knocked him sideways and in combination contributed to his mental health crisis. Firstly, the breakdown of a relationship. Secondly, a big setback financially. Finally, the death of his stepdad, which was completely unexpected. All of it just culminated and he fell into a deep depression. He also added, “I didn’t understand it for quite a while. Everybody was saying to me, ‘just snap out of it’, ‘what’s wrong with you...’ I didn’t know what was going on and I went to speak to the doctor, I filled out a questionnaire which was like 10 questions. And after that questionnaire, it was a case of ‘anxiety depression.’” Back then, Will felt that there was not much great mental health care available. This is why he believes it is important to talk about this topic and make it a lot more accessible and have people talk about it openly. This moved Will to write a book, “The Fight for Your Life”. Hear Will talk about how he came about writing this book and see the link below on where you can get it.
Will supports the mental health charity, Mind. He does consultation and supports helping organizations through seminars in creating a better mental health environment in the workplace. Will said, “I learned a lot from that. What you get back from volunteering, I can’t recommend enough to anybody listening, if you got time and if you got the mental capacity to volunteer on something, what you get out of it is insurmountable.”
If you want to know more about this organization, you may refer to the link in the below section.
Will Bourne Bio and Contact Info
Will started his journey in recruitment after an injury put a stop to his developing career in competitive martial arts. Since then Will has been a top biller, top-performing team manager, has launched as a funded startup, been the MD of one of the UK's biggest fintech recruitment companies and more recently Will has decided to do the startup journey all over again, this time with his own money, during a pandemic. Not to mention during the above process having a mental breakdown, being diagnosed and medicated for anxiety depression but ultimately bouncing back to the man you hear speaking today. Depression anxiety and medication-free, and missing some of his ribs...Will on LinkedIn Rekall Consulting website link Rekall Consulting on Facebook Rekall Consulting on Youtube Rekall Consulting on Instagram
People and Resources MentionedThe Fight For Your Life (The Fight Mentality Series Book 1) Mind Charity website link Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach
Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter