• Exercising your courage muscle every day and pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, can have remarkable effect on your mindset and really influence those around you. Pushing through the uncomfortable feeling of simply talking to a stranger, or bravely climbing a ladder to clean your gutters, can make you more prepared for the scary moments in life that you can’t control. For instance, you’ll be more likely to speak up at work when someone says something inappropriate.

    Our guest on this episode has transformed his own life by pushing himself out of his comfort zone everyday. And he is passionate about helping others spark this change in themselves. Scott Simon was a shy, quiet child who was once told by a music teacher that he should just mime the words in a school concert. Scott continued to feel invisible until a life-changing moment, years later, on a flight to Tel Aviv. He shares this heartwarming story of how he embraced a new way to live, in this very personal interview.

    Scott Simon is a happiness entrepreneur, founder of the Scare Your Soul courage movement, and the author of the book Scare Your Soul: 7 Powerful Principles to Harness Fear and Lead Your Most Courageous Life. We discuss how we can embrace fear rather than trying to overcome it, the ways to stay motivated when we encounter failure, and the proven benefits of meditation and daily gratitude.

    One of the big takeaways from this podcast with Scott is that scaring yourself doesn’t need to involve jumping out of a plane to overcome your fear of heights. In fact, Scott advocates for the much less dramatic, but more effective approach of consistency. Climbing a ladder to clean your gutters every day for a week is much more likely to help you overcome your fear of heights than launching yourself out of an airplane. Small, daily incremental steps outside of your comfort zone are what can have a ripple effect on your wellbeing. And when we improve our own wellbeing, those around us start to notice which, in turn, can have a positive effect on the world.

    As a starter, you could overcome you fear of writing a podcast review! Jump onto the platform where you listen to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, and write a quick summary of why you listen. Thank you!


    (3:18) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (5:14) What does it mean to scare ourselves every day?

    (10:16) Scaring yourself with baby steps.

    (15:03) Confronting the feeling of being uncomfortable.

    (18:30) How practicing gratitude can transform your day.

    (21:00) How to stay motivated even when we face failure.

    (28:31) Why do people find meditation so hard?

    (33:41) Heroes are born in small, everyday moments.

    (37:43) How music was part of Scott writing his book.

    (40:24) The way Scott scared his soul with singing.

    (46:23) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on scaring our soul.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Limited time offer - 23% Discount for Brain/Shift Journal: https://www.100behaviors.com/products/the-brain-shift-journal-volume-1

    Scott Simon’s book, “Scare Your Soul: 7 Powerful Principles to Harness Fear and Lead Your Most Courageous Life”: https://amzn.to/3VEI65Y

    Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/

    Episode 176, Annie Duke on How to Decide: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/

    Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    76 Trombones “Music Man”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBQWsBiM5YY

  • If you were sent an exclusive invite to a secret society, would you accept? If you knew only a few people in the world had been approached to join, would it spark a scarcity curiosity? What is more alluring: the society itself or the mere fact that it’s a secret?

    Creating hype is the forte of our returning guest on this episode, Michael F. Schein. In our previous chat with Michael back in episode 212, he was telling us about his book “The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers”. Since writing it, his marketing business has been inundated with clients wanting “in on” some hype! So as a unique way of creating hype, Michael has created a new secret society with only a few (secret) members.

    Kurt and Tim spend time discussing the allure of a secret club - why they have been successful in the past, what continues to make them enticing, and how businesses can potentially use them to create hype.

    There is something that you can be part of that is definitely not a secret - the Behavioral Grooves Patreon membership. It’s no secret that we rely on the support of our loyal listeners to support the podcast and we truly appreciate everyone who chips in, thank you.


    (5:16) How hype changed Michael’s marketing consultancy career.

    (10:51) The details of Michael’s secret society.

    (17:30) Are secret groups a tactic businesses should use?

    (21:30) How marketing has evolved since the Alice Cooper Piccadilly Circus stunt.

    (23:53) How Michael gets to work with only his favorite companies.

    (32:02) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Michael F. Schein: https://michaelfschein.com/

    Michael’s book “The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers”: https://amzn.to/3V5KVO9

    Episode 212, Scrutinizing Hype: Powerful lessons from The Hype Handbook with Michael F. Schein: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/scrutinizing-hype-with-michael-f-schein/

    Seven Society, University of Virginia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Society

    Jeff Walker “Launch: An Internet Millionaire's Secret Formula To Sell Almost Anything Online, Build A Business You Love, And Live The Life Of Your Dreams”: https://amzn.to/3V9Uv2m

    Episode 226, The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/

    The Lake Wobegon Effect: https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    The Dickies “Banana Split”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_wkEnLBvlE

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  • The web was intended to be a way of creating genuine connections with others, but we’re all sadly familiar with the detrimental ways it can be used to spread misinformation. A team of experts at Prosocial Design Network is now using evidence-based behavioral insights to redesign social media interactions, to bring out the best of us online.

    We’re honored to be joined on this episode by two of the designers of the Prosocial Design Network - John Fullot and Philipp Lorentz-Spreen. John Fallot is a user experience and graphic designer based in the New York City Metro Area. He co-founded the Prosocial Design Network with colleague Joel Putnam in late 2019, in order to better explore ways that the web could be optimized for prosocial behaviors.

    Dr. Philipp Lorenz-Spreen is a research scientist based in Berlin, Germany. His work focuses on decision making online, and finding ways to improve online democratic discourse through environmental interventions.

    There are certainly no silver bullets in the effort of minimizing the spread of misinformation. But this conversation gives us hope and provides some insights for everyone on how to approach social media in a better way.

    We encourage you to check out the work of the Prosocial Design Network and browse through the interventions they are currently testing: www.prosocialdesign.org.


    (3:34) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (6:41) Can we inoculate ourselves from misinformation online?

    (8:38) Redesigning the world wide web against misinformation.

    (13:28) Is misinformation on social media really threatening democracy?

    (16:50) Asymmetry of power between the platform and the users.

    (24:15) John and Phillip’s favorite Prosocial Design intervention: frictionless designs and "thank you" buttons.

    (28:33) Which social media sites are being proactive with interventions?

    (30:47) What is the obligation of behavioral scientists?

    (37:11) What music do John and Phillip listen to?

    (42:11) Grooving Session with Kurt on Tim on the Prosocial Design Network.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Prosocial Design Network: www.prosocialdesign.org

    Prosocial Design Network Slack: www.prosocialdesign.org/community

    Prosocial Design Network donations: www.prosocialdesign.org/donate

    Maxwell House commercial with Margaret Hamilton: https://youtu.be/tUnNDEygBjA\

    Discord: https://discord.com/

    Lorenz-Spreen, P., Lewandowsky, S., Sunstein, C.R. et al. How behavioural sciences can promote truth, autonomy and democratic discourse online. Nat Hum Behav (2020): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-020-0889-7

    Lorenz-Spreen, P., Geers, M., Pachur, T. et al. Boosting people’s ability to detect microtargeted advertising. Sci Rep (2021): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-94796-z

    Episode 10, Kal Turnbull Reddit superstar, Changing the World One View at a Time: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-the-world-one-view-at-a-time-with-reddit-superstar-kal-turnbull/

    Nir Eyal “Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products”: https://amzn.to/3XeWgMM

    Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon Page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links John:Tears For Fears “Everybody Wants to Rule The World”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGCdLKXNF3w&ab_channel=TearsForFearsVEVO

    Kat Cunning “Could Be Good”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFh4dnKPKs


    Pashanim “Airwaves”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wsXLmWhCM&ab_channel=PashanimNulldreinull

  • Would you help change a stranger’s tire? How about if they offered you $20? Or, what if instead of money, they offered you some candy?

    We often think these types of exchanges are financial in nature - but this study explored how there is actually a different type of exchange going on here - a social exchange. When we help a friend move some furniture, invite friends over for dinner, help a stranger out who is in need - these are social exchanges in a social market, one that is separate from the financial market. And what’s even more interesting is that if you bring money into the social exchange, it falls apart.

    James Heyman and Dan Ariely explored this phenomena in their landmark study called, “Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets” and is the basis for Kurt and Tim taking a deep look in this Groove Track.

    Listen to find out the backstory to the study and the implications from the findings. You can also watch a special video recording of this Groove Track with Kurt and Tim on the Behavioral Grooves YouTube Channel.


    Heyman, J., & Ariely, D. (2004). Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets. Psychological Science: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00757.x

    Behavioral Grooves on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmH8St_nsA&ab_channel=BehavioralGrooves

  • We find it easy to condemn wrongdoers, after they’ve been called out. But why do we often let unethical behavior occur around us, and not speak out? If we take a step back from the idea of there being one “bad apple”, we realize that with any wrongdoing, there is a collection of people who have been complicit in the behavior. Why is there so much fear about speaking up?

    “We've created too much fear in speaking up, when in fact, there's so much value in avoiding harm in that process.“ ~ Max Bazerman

    Our fascinating conversation with Max Bazerman aligns with the publication of his excellent new book, “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”. Our discussion is rich with insight, in particular we delve into the reason that we hold people, including ourselves, more responsible for errors of commission than omission. So how can we avoid errors of omission?

    Max Bazerman is a world famous behavioral scientist. He is the Jesse Isidor Straus Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School and the Co-Director of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is the author, co-author, or co-editor of twenty books and over 200 research articles and chapters. His awards include an honorary doctorate from the University of London and both the Distinguished Educator Award and the Distinguished Scholar Award from the Academy of Management.

    Over the years, Max has brought focus to the areas of decision making and ethics. Having been on the show before, we were delighted to welcome Max back to Behavioral Grooves once again. We hope you enjoy this episode of Behavioral Grooves. If you do, please write a review or share with a friend on Apple Podcasts. Thanks, listeners!


    (3:16) What does it mean to be complicit?

    (13:02) How errors of omission play an under-rated role in complicit behavior.

    (18:21) How to move away from the idea that there is one bad apple?

    (21:48) Unethical behavior goes unnoticed when it happens gradually.

    (23:14) Do we legitimize unethical behavior in our leaders?

    (25:51) Do employees need to be made to care about unethical behavior or do they need to demand ethical behavior from employees?

    (27:26) When complicitors are engaged in illegal behavior.

    (29:29) How can we hold people accountable for their bad behavior?

    (37:33) Max’s personal story of being complicit.

    (39:31) Are there new norms on data collection that can eliminate fraud?

    (42:23) Dolly Chugh’s question for Max.

    (46:11) How can we all become better people?

    (49:05) What music does Max enjoy?

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Max Bazerman’s book: “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3UKjfNJ

    Episode 196, Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/

    Episode 325, Dolly Chugh: Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/

    Bobo Doll Experiments: https://www.simplypsychology.org/bobo-doll.html

    Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/

    Heroic Imagination Society: https://www.heroicimagination.org/

    Musical Links

    Bob Dylan “Blowin’ in the wind”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMFj8uDubsE

  • How we think about the world can drastically influence how we navigate through it. Cutting edge research proves that reframing our mindset to be more positive, even in the light of negative events, can significantly alter how our brain responds.

    Discussing one of our favorite books of the year, author David Robson explains how our expectations can secretly meddle with almost every aspect of our lives. And by understanding their effects more thoroughly, we can unlock some powerful ways of living a more positive life.

    This is a special episode, not only because we are talking with David Robson about his fantastic book “The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World”, but we are co-hosting this episode with one of our favorite podcasters, Christian Hunt of Human Risk Podcast. And just to top it off, the interview is recorded in none other than the iconic Abbey Road Studios in London!

    Now that your expectations are set suitably high, we hope we don’t disappoint you with what we think is a fantastic episode of Behavioral Grooves! If Behavioral Grooves Podcast continues to meet your listening expectations please consider helping our ongoing production costs with a Patreon subscription. Many thanks!


    (4:20) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (7:07) What is the expectation effect?

    (8:09) Why the placebo effect doesn’t work on everyone.

    (9:36) Our stress response and fluctuations in our cortisol levels.

    (13:13) Negative stress mindset vs. positive stress mindset.

    (15:00) Does the expectation effect change the way we feel?

    (18:16) Is reframing a key component of the expectation effect?

    (19:35) David’s journey into exploring expectations.

    (22:26) How our mindset can contribute to the outcome of our diet or exercise habit.

    (28:41) How marketing sets our expectations.

    (33:04) The brain is a prediction machine.

    (36:32) Why critical thinking is a tool to manage our expectations.

    (39:30) Are you a “good” sleeper or a “bad” sleeper?

    (42:35) Being a pessimistic vs an optimistic person.

    (45:45) The ethics of expectations - genetic testing.

    (50:06) What music David is listening to and our expectations of musicians.

    (55:47) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing The Expectation Effect.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    David Robson: https://davidrobson.me/

    David Robson’s Book, The Expectation Effect: How Your Mindset Can Change Your World: https://amzn.to/3DVOXSD

    Episode 307, Groove Track | Mind Over Milkshakes: Why Expectations Matter A Lot: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/mind-over-milkshakes-groove-track/

    Nocebo Effect: https://www.mindtools.com/blog/expert-interview-blog-david-robson/

    Human Risk Podcast with Christian Hunt: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast

    Pygmalion effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

    Penolepe Fitzgerald: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope_Fitzgerald

    Martin Amos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Amis

    Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/

    Episode 75: Jonathan Mann: Integrating Behavioral Science into User Experience: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jonathan-mann-integrating-behavioral-science-into-user-experience/

    Episode 235: Make Choice Rewarding: Behavioral Insights in Marketing with Matthew Willcox: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/marketing-matthew-willcox/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Judy Collins “Spellbound”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnTh7TkFK1U

  • Cheating is all around us. Is it on the rise? It appears to be so, but why? Christian Hunt, the founder and host of Human Risk Podcast, and Koen Smets, a London-based behavioral scientist, discuss the dodgy travails of the human condition using examples of cheating in chess, walleye fishing, cycling, and even among behavioral scientists.

    Join us for an invigorating discussion on why we cheat - and we all do - from Abbey Road Studios in London.

    Human Risk Podcast: https://www.human-risk.com/podcast

    Koen Smets on Medium: https://koenfucius.medium.com/

    Fishing Scandal: https://youtu.be/xSta3wFK15Y

    Chess Scandal: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/05/1126915049/hans-niemann-is-accused-of-cheating-in-more-than-100-chess-games-hes-playing-tod

    Bike Race Scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_doping

    DataColada on Bad Behavioral Science: https://datacolada.org/98

  • Learning ALL the parts of our country’s history can be very uncomfortable. Not just in the US, but around the world, there are usually very dark parts of our past that many of us would rather brush over because it doesn’t marry up with the sterilized version of what we were taught when we were younger.

    While many of us are willing to take the next step, to unlearn our history and dismantle the unjust systems that our forebears built, few of us actually know how to go about it effectively. Our wonderful guest on this episode, Dolly Chugh admits to her own story of how she inadvertently taught her kids a polished version of history. And in her own personal reckoning around this experience, wrote the book that she found herself needing to read. And we are delighted to be talking with her about “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change” because it is now a valuable tool for all of us.

    Dolly Chugh is a Harvard educated, award-winning social psychologist at the NYU Stern School of Business, where she is an expert researcher in the psychology of good people. We’ve previously had Dolly on the show but we are thrilled to welcome her back to discuss her brand new book.


    (2:07) How Little House On The Prairie led Dolly to write A More Just Future.

    (9:24) Behavioral History - the new way of looking at the past?

    (11:10) Why do we find it so difficult to talk about the dark parts of our history?

    (14:08) How “dressing for the weather” can help us deal with our emotional responses.

    (17:56) What other countries can teach the US about our response to history..

    (19:37) How a Paradox Mindset can help us sit with uncomfortable truths.

    (23:28) How does Dolly feel about America after writing the book?

    (26:12) How do we move forward to a more just future?

    (29:28) Unlearning our past is simple but not easy.

    (31:49) Why is George Takei a gritty patriot?

    (37:51) What is belief grief?

    (39:42) How psychological distance creates a “long time ago illusion”.

    (41:37) Using music to anchor us in time.

    (44:52) What question Dolly would ask Max Bazerman?

    (47:54) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt discussing A More Just Future.

    If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. Writing a review of the podcast is also a great way to share your appreciation with other listeners.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Dolly’s book “A More Just Future: Psychological Tools for Reckoning with Our Past and Driving Social Change “: https://amzn.to/3Cgs9eq

    Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/

    Dolly’s TED Talk: “How to let go of being a "good" person — and become a better person”: https://www.ted.com/talks/dolly_chugh_how_to_let_go_of_being_a_good_person_and_become_a_better_person?language=en

    Episode 280, Do We Judge Others By The Way They Speak? | Katherine Kinzler PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/judging-by-the-way-others-speak/

    Historiography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography

    Dan Gilbert “Stumbling on Happiness”: https://amzn.to/3zdV4iD

    Episode 321, Robert Livingston: How To Have A Conversation About Racism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-conversation-about-racism/

    Angela Duckworth “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3suuRZh

    “Construal-Level Theory of Psychological Distance” Yaacov Trope and Nira Liberman (2011): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152826/

    Max Bazerman “Complicit: How We Enable the Unethical and How to Stop”: https://amzn.to/3TSE7lB

    Episode 232: Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Bob Marley “Buffalo Soldier”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o

    Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinPd5RRJw

    In the Heights “No Me Diga”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFH772ytzM

    Louis Armstrong “Hello Dolly”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7N2wssse14

  • People don’t hate change, they hate the ambiguity that comes with change. Organizational psychologist, Dr Debbie Sutherland PhD, shares the tools we can use, both in business settings and in our personal lives, to overcome our discomfort with ambiguity and to thrive in uncertain environments.

    Debbie is an academic executive coach with both a masters degree and doctorate degree from Columbia University. She has recently written a well researched book, The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies, which gives business leaders a blueprint for making better decisions in ambiguous situations. After all, ambiguous and uncertain situations aren’t going away, so we might as well figure out how to deal with them!

    Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page.


    (2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (5:35) Why do people hate ambiguity?

    (9:40) How frustration led to Debbie’s research on ambiguity?

    (11:25) The value of critical reflection.

    (16:11) How journaling can help you find patterns in behavior.

    (21:09) Mental models of ambiguity.

    (23:02) Reflection IN action vs. reflection ON action.

    (25:44) The ambiguity of THE dress.

    (29:18) The Ambiguity Mindset – intuitive or learned?

    (30:26) Where do leaders make mistakes with managing ambiguity?

    (38:25) What music would Debbie take to a desert island?

    (43:04) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on ambiguity.


    Debbie Sutherland’s book “The Business of Ambiguity: Demystify the Unknown with Five Key Thinking and Behavior Strategies”: https://amzn.to/3MFuh3W

    The Business of Ambiguity: https://www.behaviorsinbusiness.com/

    Groups Relations Conferences: https://www.tc.columbia.edu/organization-and-leadership/social-organizational-psychology/degree-info/group-relations-conferences/

    Gestalt Psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology

    Dr Pamela Booth research on Behavior Analysis: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Behaviour-Analysis%3A-Catalyst-for-Perspective-and-of-Booth/d90d2da66a769d574e99a5dcf6f5ced41a689ee1

    David Schon, The Reflective Practitioner: https://graysreadinggroup.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/the-reflective-practitioner-by-donald-schon/

    Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/

    Episode 323, Quit: Why We Do It Too Late and How To Get Better At It with Annie Duke: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/quit-with-annie-duke/

    Episode 322, Chuck Wisner: Four Steps To More Effective Conversations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/more-effective-conversations/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Eminem “Fall”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfTbHITdhEI

    Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA

  • Walking away is never easy. Whether it’s quitting a job, a relationship or an expedition to the peak of Mount Everest, we have a real problem with knowing when to stop. And ironically, when we do quit, we often wish we’d done it earlier. So why do we find it so difficult to quit? Annie Duke addresses the psychological reasons that prevent us from quitting, and how we can overcome them.

    Annie needs little introduction to the Behavioral Grooves Podcast as she is now the only guest to have been on the show 4 times! Most people know of her as a poker champion and bestselling author but we are lucky enough to call her a friend. One of the reasons we are so fond of Annie is her ability to use relatable stories to explain the complex concepts around decision making. She has emerged as one of the leading thinkers in the field, and is truly an intellectual powerhouse. So we are thrilled to be talking to Annie about her excellent new book, “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”.

    We don't like ambiguity. We don't like uncertainty. We keep chugging along, trying to accrue more certainty. So that we know that it's the right decision....As Richard Thaler, Nobel laureate said to me; “the only time that we were really willing to quit is when it's not a decision anymore.”

    ~ Annie Duke, Episode 323

    In this episode, Annie touches on key themes around quitting. We talk about the reasons we find quitting so difficult, why mantras like “quit while you’re ahead” are complete bunkum, and what techniques we can use to ensure we quit at the right time. Annie also sets the record straight on the myth that grit and quitting are opposite sides of the same coin. The concepts actually overlap.

    We hope you enjoy this episode (and didn’t quit!). To help others find our podcast content, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review on your podcast player. It helps us get noticed by other folk who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.


    (5:36) Annie’s story of quitting and her personal frustration.

    (12:39) Grit and quit are NOT polar opposites.

    (22:53) What are some of the psychological aspects that make quitting hard?

    (36:31) What is the difference between loss aversion and sure loss aversion?

    (42:29) Why we shouldn’t quit while we’re ahead.

    (49:10) Gut feel vs rational decisions.

    (53:29) What Mount Everest can teach us about when to quit.

    (1:03:36) The second way to help you quit – a quitting coach.

    (1:10:44) The backstory of Barry Staw.

    (1:20:40) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt about quitting.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

    LinksAnnie Duke’s Books:

    “Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away”: https://amzn.to/3z47JEP

    “Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts”: https://amzn.to/3Vvaick

    Angela Duckworth book, “Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance”: https://amzn.to/3ECSLsS

    Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/

    Maya Shankar: A Slight Change Of Plans Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622

    Episode 310, Why You Can’t Find a Cab When It’s Raining – Groove Track: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-you-cant-find-cabs-in-the-rain/

    Barry Staw: https://haas.berkeley.edu/faculty/staw-barry/

    Episode 277, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope | Daniel H. Pink: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/

    Episode 171, Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

  • Conversations are vital to our existence - after all, we talk with people every day. But have you ever dissected what makes a conversation effective? When we are more conscious of how we are talking with others, we can nurture more productive connections, and avoid common pitfalls that often derail our conversations.

    In this episode, we explore the importance of conscious conversations, with author Chuck Wisner, whose new book The Art Of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact is coming out in mid October 2022. Chuck’s insights are built on a fascinating mix of careers: from architect to personal coach, with a stop-off as a mediator at the Harvard Law Mediation Program.

    With Chuck, we discuss the four sequential stages to an effective conversation:


    We explore the role our identity plays in shaping the stories we tell ourselves, why leaders’ authority can make their voice louder, and how some of our best ideas happen when we are stimulating our creative minds.

    “The stories we live by and tell ourselves and others are essential to our identity.” ~ Chuck Wisner

    If you enjoy listening to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!


    (2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (4:35) The stories we tell ourselves are central to our identity.

    (5:34) The Art of Conscious Conversation Book.

    (10:14) The first of the four types of conversations: storytelling.

    (18:56) Collaboration, the second step of successful conversations.

    (22:38) How re-engaging with our creative minds assists our conversations.

    (28:56) Why commitment is the active part of a conversation.

    (38:06) How music is part of Chuck’s life.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact: https://amzn.to/3clNtGk

    Episode 178: Kwame Christian On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Joe Morello “Take 5 Drum Solo”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTyTc6FjjU

    Delbert McClinton “Ain’t That Lovin’ You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCN2og2kKdk

  • Racism is solvable, but that doesn’t mean we will solve it. To close the gap between the probable and possible, we need to have meaningful conversations.

    “Conversation is one of the most powerful ways to build knowledge, awareness, and empathy and ultimately, impact change.”

    In his award winning book, “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”, Dr Robert Livingston PhD provides a compass and a roadmap for individuals and for organizational leaders to solve racism. As a leading Harvard social psychologist, he expertly combines his research and narrative for an audience who is eager to be part of the solution.

    Robert talks with us about the lightbulb moment he realized storytelling was a powerful way to engage an audience. By building relationships and using narratives, you can change people’s behavior in a way that facts and graphs simply don’t.

    Our conversation with Robert gives us the tools to firstly define racism and recognize its existence. We learn why motivated reasoning tries to protect us from the threat of addressing our own racism. But if we approach the painful conversations with a growth mindset, we can allow ourselves the grace to learn.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    (3:13) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (4:23) Is racism a solvable problem?

    (6:19) Why conversation is so crucial to overcoming racism.

    (13:18) How The Press Model can help solve racism.

    (19:47) Why are people in denial about racism?

    (25:12) How to challenge the “I’m not a racist” relative?

    (28:48) How to have a conversation about racism, rather than a debate.

    (36:20) Why do we confuse equity and equality?

    (45:03) People are not as concerned about fairness as they are about winning.

    (47:52) What music would Robert take to a desert island?


    Robert Livingston's book “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”: https://amzn.to/3DdQZOc

    Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/

    “Whites See Racism as a Zero-Sum Game That They Are Now Losing” Michael Norton and Samuel Sommers (2011): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691611406922

    Carol Dweck “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”: https://amzn.to/3SBhamm

    Amy Edmondson: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451

    Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/

    Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/

    Musical Links

    Stevie Wonder “Songs In The Key of Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiG9eiwUpHo

    Miles Davis “So What”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c

  • Close your eyes and visualize a horse. Most people can picture the outline of the body, the color of the horse and the unique features of the animal. But some people simply don’t see any image at all. This lack of a mind’s eye is known as aphantasia.

    To help explain exactly what aphantasia is, and how it can affect behavior, we talk with Professor Adam Zeman who actually helped identify and name the neurological condition. Adam has a medical degree and a PhD in philosophy from Oxford University. He’s been a lecturer and professor of cognitive and behavioral neurology and has published extensively on visual imagery and forms of amnesia occurring in epilepsy. Adam has also published an introduction to neurology for the general audiences called, A Portrait of the Brain. But the reason we are talking to Adam on this episode is about his research on our “minds eye”. He discusses how a lack of visual imagery (aphantasia) or overly vivid imagery (hyperphantasia) can be identified and what effects it has on our behavior.

    We often ask guests on the show about whether their work is influenced by “me-search”; something of particular interest to them personally. Well, this episode is a little bit of me-search for our own Kurt Nelson who himself has aphantasia. Join both Kurt and Tim as they both find out more about the recent research into the condition and how we should all be aware of how it affects people.

    Thank you to all our listeners of Behavioral Grooves, we enjoy sharing unique insights with you. If you have enjoyed this episode, please consider writing a review on your podcast player. Or you can contribute financially to our work through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.


    (3:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (5:15) How Adam discovered the condition aphantasia.

    (10:30) How aphantasia can affect all the senses.

    (12:45) The prevalence of aphantasia.

    (15:38) The behavioral differences that are present with aphantasia.

    (19:42) What careers suit people with a lack of mind’s eye?

    (23:39) What causes aphantasia?

    (25:51) The differences between voluntary and involuntary visualization.

    (30:41) Visualization is an echo of vision.

    (35:21) What music Adam will take to a desert island.

    (37:51) About The Mind’s Eye Project.

    (42:49) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia

    Vividness of Visual Imagery Questionnaire (VVIQ): https://aphantasia.com/vviq/

    Professor Adam Zeman: https://psychology.exeter.ac.uk/staff/profile/index.php?web_id=adam_zeman

    The Mind’s Eye Project: https://www.gla.ac.uk/research/az/cspe/projects/the-eyes-mind/

    “Picture This? Some Just Can’t” by Carl Zimmer, 2015: https://carlzimmer.com/picture-this-some-just-cant-101/

    Prosopagnosia: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/prosopagnosia#:~:text=Prosopagnosia%20is%20a%20neurological%20disorder,face%20blindness%20or%20facial%20agnosia.

    Hyperphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperphantasia#:~:text=Hyperphantasia%20is%20the%20condition%20of,as%20vivid%20as%20real%20seeing%22.

    Ed Catmull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Catmull

    Craig Venter: https://www.jcvi.org/about/j-craig-venter

    Blake Ross: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Ross

    Think of a horse: https://aphantasia.com/think-of-a-horse/

    Musical Links

    David Gray “Sail Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oyBnvibWEY

    Bach “Cello Suite No.1 in G Major”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0

    Mendelssohn “Overture: The Hebrides”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdQyN7MYSN8

  • “The primary source of unconscious priming…is your conscious experience.” Our consciousness is where we bring everything together, where we integrate and form a rich integration of our experience. This result is that this experience gets spread out to all the processes of the mind which is pivotal to how priming, an unconscious effect, actually works.

    Dr John Bargh PhD is a researcher and professor at Yale University and is probably the leading researcher on behavioral priming and has been studying this topic for almost 40 years. Not only that but he is a long term friend of Behavioral Grooves Podcast.

    In this episode with John, we explore with him both the past and future of priming as well as some of the controversies surrounding it.

    “The more important the goal, the more primable it is”


    (4:36) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (7:50) Why priming gets a bad rap.

    (13:01) What exactly is a prime?

    (16:17) Where does future research in priming need to go?

    (19:46) How does priming differ from expectation theory and the placebo effect?

    (22:33) How is framing not priming?

    (24:07) What is the summation of experience?

    (32:02) The stupid reason John went into social psychology.

    (40:51) What the meta analysis studies on priming have found.

    (45:50) Science communication: how to tell the good science from the bad.

    (49:03) The importance of podcasting to bridge the gap between science and people.

    (1:00:03) Grooving session with Tim and Kurt on priming.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    John Bargh's book “Before You Know It: The Unconscious Reasons We Do What We Do”: https://amzn.to/3yUHka8

    Episode 248, Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/

    Episode 155, John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-unconscious-mind/

    Global Workspace Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_workspace_theory

    Bargh JA. “What have we been priming all these years? On the development, mechanisms, and ecology of nonconscious social behavior.” Eur J Soc Psychol. 2006: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19844598/

    Shinobu Kitayama, University of Michigan: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/faculty/kitayama.html

    Daphna Oyserman, University of Southern California: https://dornsife.usc.edu/daphna-oyserman

    Paul J. Reber, Northwestern University: https://www.reberlab.psych.northwestern.edu/people/paul/

    Daniel Schacter, “Amnesia observed: Remembering and forgetting in a natural environment” (1983): https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1983-26025-001

    Parafoveal Processing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/parafoveal-processing

    Jeffrey W. Sherman (2017) “A Final Word on Train Wrecks”: https://psychology.ucdavis.edu/people/sherm/cv

    Evan Weingarten, Qijia Chen, Maxwell McAdams, Jessica Yi, Justin Hepler, Dolores Albarracin (2016) “On Priming Action: Conclusions from a Meta-Analysis of the Behavioral Effects of Incidentally-Presented Words”: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27957520/

    Xiao Chen, Gary P. Latham, Ronald F. Piccolo, Guy Itzchakov (2019) “An Enumerative Review and a Meta-Analysis of Primed Goal Effects on Organizational Behavior”: https://iaap-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apps.12239

    Roy F. Baumeister and Kathleen D. Vohs (2003): “Sobriety Epidemic Endangers Nation’s Well-Being”: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/sobriety-epidemic-endangers-nations-well-being

    Episode 147, Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/

    Musical Links

    AC/DC “Hells Bells”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAIpkdhU9Q

    Psychedelic Porn Crumpets “Acid Dent”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuQyIQ0NA0k

    Acid Dad “Searchin’”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzSwzUAqVWw

    The Orb “Blue Room”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ8nTbS9mOE

    Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg

    Pearl Jam “Black”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgaRVvAKoqQ

    The Who “Who You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNbBDrceCy8

    Led Zeppelin “All My Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXC87EABywo

    Dead Pirates “Alexis”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9FsgAyZop4

    Hadestown Broadway Show “Way Down Hadestown”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJIc3RtJK7U

  • Rory Sutherland is a British advertising executive who became fascinated with behavioral science. Between his TED talks, books and articles, he has become one of the field’s greatest proponents. Rory is currently the Executive Creative Director of OgilvyOne, after gigs as vice-chairman of Ogilvy Group UK and co-founder of the Behavioural Sciences Practice, part of the Ogilvy & Mather group of companies. He is the author of The Spectator’s The Wiki Man column and his most recent book, which we highly recommend, is Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life.

    Our discussion with Rory was original published in January 2020, but Rory’s evergreen insights continue to be popular with our listeners so we decided to republish this episode. You can also listen to Rory discuss his latest book Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet? alongside his co-writer Pete Dyson, in episode 290.

    We start this discussion with Rory by asking him about his book and some of his insights from it. His approach to advertising, marketing and product design is informed by his ability to look for the things that aren’t there. He once described a solution to improving customer satisfaction on the Chunnel Train between London and Paris by suggesting that a billion dollars would be better spent on supermodel hosts in the cars than on reducing ride time by 15 minutes. He’s a terrifically insightful thinker.

    Our conversation ran amok down all sorts of rabbit holes, as expected, including ergodicity, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s “The Silver Blaze,” high-end audio and the dietary habits of the world-famous runner, Usain Bolt.

    In Kurt and Tim’s Grooving Session, we discuss some of our favorite takeaways from Rory’s conversation including, “The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea” and others. And finally, Kurt teed up the Bonus Track with a final reflection and recap of the key points we discussed.

    As always, we would be grateful if you would write us a quick review. It helps us get noticed by other folks who are interested in podcasts about behavioral science. It will only take 27 seconds. Thank you, and we appreciate your help.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Rory Sutherland: https://ogilvy.co.uk/people/rorys

    “Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life”: https://amzn.to/3xbibt3

    “Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?”: https://amzn.to/3cZPyIy

    Episode 290, Transport Your Thinking; Why We Need To Reframe Travel | Rory Sutherland & Pete Dyson: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/transport-rory-sutherland-pete-dyson/

    “Friction”: https://www.rogerdooley.com/books/friction/

    Murray Gell-Mann, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-Mann

    Robin Williams “Scottish Golf”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8TzR1-n4Q

    Don Draper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Draper

    Ergodicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity

    John James Cowperthwaite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Cowperthwaite

    SatNav: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/satnav

    Daniel Kahneman, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

    What You See is All There Is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

    Arthur Conan-Doyle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle

    Sherlock Holmes “Silver Blaze”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_Silver_Blaze

    Tim Houlihan’s Blog on “Silver Blaze”: https://tinyurl.com/ufumkj6

    Ben Franklin T-Test: https://tinyurl.com/wocdsdk

    Volkswagen Fighter: https://tinyurl.com/qpyqh87

    David Ogilvy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ogilvy_(businessman)

    Jock Elliot: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2005/dec/01/guardianobituaries.media

    Battle of Leyte Gulf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf

    Croft Audio: http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/main.html

    Mu-So single speaker: https://www.naimaudio.com/mu-so

    WFMT Chicago: https://www.wfmt.com/

    TK Maxx: https://www.tkmaxx.com/uk/en/

    Berlin Hotel with Big Lebowski: https://www.michelbergerhotel.com/en/

    Shure: https://www.shure.com/en-US/products/microphones?lpf[top][types][]=microphones

    Zoom: https://zoom.us/

    Satisficing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

    Usain Bolt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usain_Bolt

    Sheena Iyengar, PhD: https://www.sheenaiyengar.com/

    Jelly Jar Study: https://tinyurl.com/oo6g6eb

    Big Band Music: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_band

    Musical Links

    Aretha Franklin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretha_Franklin

    Southern California Community Choir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California_Community_Choir

    Abba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA

    Felix Mendelssohn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Mendelssohn

    George Frideric Handel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frideric_Handel

    Johann Sebastian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

    Johann Christian Bach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach

  • Psychology and neuroscience have proven that our minds do things on autopilot. These shortcuts (or heuristics) are laden with unconscious biases, which are juxtaposed to our self identity as a “good” person; one that isn’t racist, sexist or homophobic. Dolly Chugh believes we should set a higher standard for ourselves by being good-ish people. By implementing a Growth Mindset, a concept pioneered by Carol Dweck, we don’t hang on too tightly to our identity. We learn to change, and to be taught and to grow.

    Dolly Chugh is an award-winning associate professor and social psychologist at the Stern School of Business at New York University. Her research focuses on the “psychology of good people”. How and why most of us, however well-intended, are still prone to race and gender bias, as well as what she calls “bounded ethicality.”

    Kurt and Tim sat down with Dolly for this episode in Spring 2021 to talk about the concept of “good-ish” which is a central theme to her book The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias. In subsequent episodes we have referenced Dolly's interview and work many times, so we wanted to republish her episode so you can enjoy listening to her insights again.

    In our conversation with Dolly we learn about her beautiful analogy of headwinds and tailwinds that describe the invisible biases and systemic issues that many people in our world face. She explains the “Hmmm Framework” that she came up with after the January 6th Attack on the Capitol. And, of course, we discuss music and how Dolly incorporates it into her teaching and her writing.

    In our focused Grooving Session, Tim and Kurt extract the meaningful ways that we can apply Dolly’s work into our everyday lives. We summarize the key parts of our interview with her and how we can each challenge ourselves to find our good-ish groove!

    What You Will Learn from Dolly Chugh

    (2:41) Speed round questions

    (4:12) What is the difference between good and good-ish?

    (9:09) Why is a growth mindset so difficult?

    (12:28) Why we should integrate psychology more into our educational and political systems

    (15:48) How systemic racism and unconscious bias are related

    (29:12) Hmmm Framework and thought experiments

    (34:04) How do we discover our own blind spots?

    (38:58) How Dolly incorporates music into her teaching and writing

    (43:21) Applications from our interview with Dolly in our Grooving Session:

    Step back and be intentional, use “when...then…” statements.Don’t hold on so tightly to our identity and the status quo.Thought experiments to unveil our own ignorance. The Harvard Implicit Association Test (IAT).Self audit - look at our library, our magazines, our TV shows, what we talk about with friends. How are we showing up in the world? Are we being intentional with where we put our effort?

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Dolly Chugh: http://www.dollychugh.com/about-dolly

    Dolly Chugh, The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias https://amzn.to/35tGwMe

    Carol Dweck, Mindset, The New Psychology of Success https://amzn.to/3wDv10I

    Episode 196: Living Happier By Making the World Better with Max Bazerman https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/living-happier-by-making-the-world-better-with-max-bazerman/

    Mahzarin Banaji https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/mahzarin-r-banaji

    Molly Kern https://www.molly-kern.com/

    Happy Days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee0gziqT2Yk&ab_channel=ChiefScheiderChiefScheider

    Grey’s Anatomy https://youtu.be/dSGLObjyFvA

    Steve Martin and Nuala Walsh, Episode 209: GAABS and Improving the Future for Every Applied Behavioral Scientist https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/improving-the-future-for-every-applied-behavioral-scientist/

    Katy Milkman, How to Change https://amzn.to/3wDZHzc

    Confronting the legacy of housing discrimination https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_this_morning/video/vLnaRgBIed_ph_NxZa2ZaivfdC_FeD1f/white-americans-confront-legacy-of-housing-discrimination/

    Harvard Implicit Association Test https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

    Alec Lacamoire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Lacamoire

    Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon

    Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

    Musical Links

    Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton” https://youtu.be/VhinPd5RRJw

    In the Heights “Blackout” https://youtu.be/T0V2cCjf1Tk

    Something Rotten! “A Musical” https://youtu.be/1KFNcy9VjQI

    Bruno Mars “The Lazy Song” https://youtu.be/fLexgOxsZu0

    38 Special “Hold On Loosely” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJtf7R_oVaw

    Buffalo Springfield “For What It’s Worth” https://youtu.be/80_39eAx3z8

  • For many years, the general consensus by many researchers and practitioners was that providing people with short-term extrinsic rewards sapped their long-term motivation. This led to some organizations reducing or not using short-term rewards at all. However, this perspective has always had some detractors and now even more research shows that this belief is misleading.

    In this episode, Kurt and Tim explore the research paper by Indranil Goswami and Oleg Urmisky with the lovely title of “The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement” that shows that while short-term incentives drive an immediate reduction in task engagement, this only lasts for a short time and that engagement rebounds to the baseline relatively quickly.

    We examine some of the backstory to this belief, what the study showed, and review the implications of this.


    The Dynamic Effect of Incentives on Post-Reward Task Engagement: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312100138_The_dynamic_effect_of_incentives_on_postreward_task_engagement

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

  • The GodFather of Influence, Robert Cialdini joins us on Behavioral Grooves to share his motivation for expanding his bestselling book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion which now includes a completely new Seventh Principle of Influence: Unity. This additional principle can help explain our political loyalties, vaccine hesitancy and why media headlines can be so inflammatory.

    Another motivation for the revised edition to the book is to include more application to the Principles of Influence. So our conversation highlights some of Bob’s advice for start-up businesses and how they can harness the principle of Social Proof. And as general advice, Bob recounts how he recently advised a teenager to be generous to others – this in turn stimulates the Rule of Reciprocity, nurturing a relationship which is mutually beneficial.

    No episode of Behavioral Grooves would be complete without discussing music, even with guests we’ve interviewed before! But the theme of unity has a special significance with music and Bob highlights how music and dance bring people together and help them feel unified. Plus we get an interesting story of an experiment in France, and how a guitar case played a crucial part in one man’s luck.

    We hope you enjoy our discussion with The Godfather of Influence, Robert Cialdini. Since we generously share our great content with you, perhaps you feel influenced by the Rule of Reciprocity and will become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member!

    [This episode was originally published in May 2021 and you can also listen to our first interview with Robert Cialdini in Episode 50].

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

    Topics we Discuss on Influence with Robert Cialdini

    (3:55) Speed round

    (6:50) Ideal number of stars on your online review

    (9:00) Why Cialdini wrote a new edition of Influence

    (12:13) The new Seventh Principle: Unity

    (15:10) How to harness social proof as a start-up

    (20:02) A new color of lies

    (22:22) Principle of Unity with politics

    (24:42) Tribalism and vaccine hesitancy

    (28:35) Why Trump getting vaccinated hasn’t influenced his voters

    (30:50) How framing of media headlines influences our perception of the news

    (33:24) The Petrified Forest Wood Principle

    (36:56) Where will the next generation of research go with Cialdini’s work?

    (40:52) What advice would Cialdini give your teenager?

    (48:23) Music and influence

    (53:05) Grooving session

    Robert Cialdini’s Books

    Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion https://amzn.to/3tyCpZ6

    Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade https://amzn.to/3eGdyOW


    Episode 50: Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/

    Increase Your Influence: https://www.influenceatwork.com/

    Godfather 2 Movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Godfather_Part_II

    Richard Thaler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Thaler

    Daniel Kahneman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

    Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

    Donald Trump vaccine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2021/04/20/trump-i-dont-know-why-republicans-are-vaccine-hesitant-again-floats-pfizer-conspiracy-theory/

    Mike Pence: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/pence-set-receive-covid-vaccine-televised-appearance-n1251655

    Petrified Forest Wood Principle: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-shaping-us/201909/the-petrified-wood-principle

    Stanley Schachter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Schachter

    Jerome Singer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_E._Singer

    Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

    The psychology of misinformation: Why it’s so hard to correct: https://firstdraftnews.org/latest/the-psychology-of-misinformation-why-its-so-hard-to-correct/

    How to combat fake news and misinformation: https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-to-combat-fake-news-and-disinformation/

    Teaching skills to combat fake news and misinformation: https://www.washington.edu/trends/teaching-skills-to-combat-fake-news-and-misinformation/

    Episode 102: Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

    Episode 214: Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

  • Priming studies have had some negative press over the past ten years - some of it justified, some of it not. In this groove track, Kurt and Tim examine a 2018 study done by Alexander Stajkovic, Kayla Sergent, Gary Latham, and Suzanne Peterson called “Prime and Performance: Can a CEO Motivate Employees Without Their Awareness?”

    This field study, with real-world implications, demonstrated that the choice of words had an impact on company performance. The impact was not just statistically significant, but it had real-world significance as well. The researchers replaced 12 words in a company President’s e-mail message to his employees. The impact that those 12 words had on performance was wild.

    Kurt and Tim examine how the study was set up, the type of priming used, how performance was measured, and explore some of the key findings. We try to peel back the reasons why the interventions worked as it did, and discuss both the positive implications of this study, as well as things we should be wary of.

    Listen now or find out more about this paper in our blog post. Enjoy!

  • Shankar Vedantam is the host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the book Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. We initially interviewed Shankar in mid 2021 but want to highlight this discussion for you again as it is one we still discuss in more recent episodes.

    Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.

    In our discussion with Shankar we cover:

    (6:38) Speed round questions.(11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.(16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.(23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world. (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking. (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.(35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.(37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.(44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.(52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.(52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.

    We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon. Thank you!

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

    Books Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY Links

    Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r

    Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/

    Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

    Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon

    Other Episodes We Talk About

    The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

    Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/

    Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

    George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

    Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

    John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/

    Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/