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Sex Terms You’ve Never Heard: CBT, AMDL & More!
8 sep 2024· Sex With Dr. Jess
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Sex Terms You’ve Never Heard: From CBT to CEI & Beyond
Prefer to listen?
This post is based on a Sex With Dr. Jess podcast episode featuring Sunny Megatron. Scroll down to listen or listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
What Counts as a “Normal” Fantasy?
What turns someone on might surprise others—but that doesn’t make it wrong. In a world where sexual fantasies are often hidden behind closed doors and filtered out of mainstream studies, a growing vocabulary of kink and fetish acronyms reveals just how varied, creative, and expressive people’s desires can be.
While a study out of Quebec found that fantasies such as swinging, BDSM, and threesomes are common and “normal” (with over half of participants reporting them), the reality is that many desires extend beyond the bounds of academic inquiry.
That’s where lesser-known acronyms come in.
Kink Acronyms 101: From Familiar to Fantastical
Sex educator Sunny Megatron recently joined the Sex With Dr. Jess podcast to decode the sex terms that rarely show up in textbooks. From CEI to ASFR, here are a few that stand out:
CBT: Cock and ball torture
This can include everything from gentle squeezing to bondage, ball stretchers, clamps, and even full-contact ball busting.
CEI: Cum eating instruction
Often paired with JOI (jack off instruction), usually in a dom-sub dynamic, and frequently rooted in taboo play.
SPH: Small penis humiliation
Involves psychological play and consensual embarrassment.
ABF: Adult breastfeeding fetish
Not necessarily about lactation, but more often about the eroticism of care, comfort, and vulnerability.
CFNM: Clothed female, nude male
An inversion of mainstream objectification that centers the clothed partner’s power and gaze.
ASFR: Alt sex robot fetish
Sometimes referred to as technosexuality, especially relevant in a world where Bluetooth-connected toys like the We-Vibe Chorus and We-Vibe Sync 2 blur the lines between tech and touch.
The Psychology of Kink: Power, Play & Permission
Many of these fantasies involve submissive men and dominant women—a dynamic that directly challenges cultural norms of masculinity. Kinks like CEI or CFNM provide a mental reprieve from societal expectations of dominance and emotional suppression.
This kind of exploration is not necessarily about the acts themselves, but about rewriting personal narratives around power, control, and vulnerability. For some, it’s healing. For others, it’s just hot.
And for anyone looking to explore dominant/submissive roles in a playful way, a toy like the We-Vibe Pivot can be an excellent starting point. It’s discreet, app-controlled, and ideal for giving control to a partner, whether across the room or across the world.
Shame, Humiliation & the Erotic
Erotic humiliation is another thread running through many of these kinks. It’s not about degradation but about consensual embarrassment—such as being asked to perform a sexy task in front of others or being lovingly teased.
These types of fantasies often stem from early experiences or internalized cultural messages. For those looking to process shame through pleasure, even seemingly taboo kinks like CBT or CEI can become cathartic and empowering when approached with consent, communication, and curiosity.
Playing With Consent: SSC and RACK
All these acts—no matter how edgy—rely on enthusiastic, informed consent. The frameworks of SSC (Safe, Sane, and Consensual) and RACK (Risk-Aware Consensual Kink) guide participants toward ethical, joyful exploration.
Tools for Pleasure, Play & Power Exchange
For those curious to dive into sensation, dominance, or power exchange dynamics, consider these tools:
We-Vibe Melt: Perfect for surrendering to hands-free clitoral stimulation during JOI scenes.
Magic Wand: Ideal for intense sensation play, especially in spanking or OTK scenes.We-Vibe Tango X: A powerful bullet vibe for pinpoint pleasure or humiliation play when the submissive is being edged.

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And for those who crave exploration at the intersection of psychology and technique, the Mind-Blowing Oral: Clit Edition and Penis Edition are excellent resources to upskill while turning your partner on.
No Judgment, Just Curiosity
Whether your fantasy is ASFR, ABF, or something that doesn’t even have a name yet, the takeaway is simple: your desires are valid. Your erotic imagination deserves respect—not ridicule.
Dive deeper and explore kink and what really turns you on…
If the acronyms above intrigue you, you’ll enjoy this deeper dive into taboo desires and power exchange dynamics in Kinky Tapas: Psychological Kink, Dominance & More.
To better understand the emotional pull behind kinks like CEI, CFNM, and ABF, check out Emotional Seduction & The Core Erotic Feeling—a must-read for anyone curious about what really turns us on.
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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Sex Terms You’ve Never Heard: CBT, AMDL & More!
Dr. Jess:
Hello. Hello. This is Jessica O’Reilly at Sex With Dr. Jess, your friendly neighborhood sexologist. And I am here today and you may be able to hear it in my voice, but I’m grinning from ear to ear about today’s topic. I’m really excited for the topic and for our guests, because we’re going to be talking about sex terms, sex acronyms, sexual fantasies, and some of them are really fun. Some of them are really edgy. Some of them are new to me. In fact, I’m really excited for today’s episode.
Now, before we get started, I want to remind you that this episode of Sex With Dr. Jess is brought to you by Desire Resorts, this magical Kingdom down in Mexico, with two locations where you don’t have to wear clothes and you are free to be your sexual erotic powerful selves. Check them out at Desire Resorts. Now, this week, in my weekly research roundup, I was reviewing some data from a study in Quebec those good old French Canadians that focused on sexual fantasies and concluded that most fantasies from swinging to threesomes to BDSM are technically classified according to the data as normal or common. Now, a team of scientists at the University of Montreal asked 1517 French Canadian adults, while Quebec residents about their sexual fantasies, and then they rank them according to intensity and frequency. And what they found is that the majority of the fantasies that made it onto this list fell into the common or typical range, meaning that more than half of us, as Canadians have had these fantasies. So from being watched to having sex in public to filming ourselves to being forced to have sex, these are all classified. Most of these fell into the common or typical range. And as I read through this list of sex acts, it’s a good study, but I thought to myself, yeah, these fantasies seem pretty typical. They’re not particularly edgy, not very shocking. I mean, there was some pee play in there where you urinate on one another. But I hear from people all over the world, from all walks of life, people who are artists and people who are CEOs. And what I find I hear is that their fantasies really go beyond the list that was included in this study. Their fantasies, the ones I’m hearing about, which are also fairly common, weren’t mentioned.
So today I want to delve in to some of the fantasies that we don’t talk about as much. Maybe some of the fantasies that don’t make it into the research and not just fantasy sex acts. And there are so many that I’ve had to narrow it down. And this is why I’m excited because I’ve decided to narrow it down to sex acronyms because, you know, they’re fun. And I recently I was inspired by Sunny Megatron, a fellow sex educator, and I saw Sunny’s video on CBT. So she did this video on CBT. Now to me and to many of you CBT probably stands for cognitive Behavioral therapy. That’s what I studied. Many of you have probably engaged with CBT at some point in time, but that is not all it means. So I thought I need to get in touch with the fabulous setting Megatron and chat with her about CBT and some of these other sex acronyms.
So it is my pleasure to be joined by sex educator extraordinaire Sunny Megatron. How are you, Sunny?
Sunny Megatron: Oh, I’m doing great. Thank you for having me. I’m super excited. I’m excited for this.
Dr. Jess: Now. Sunny and I met working on her television show Sex with Sunny Megatron, maybe two years ago. Is that correct?
Sunny Megatron: Yes. It’s about two years, maybe three. It’s time gone by that fast. Something like that.
Dr. Jess: We’re getting older here, older and better, like a fine wine. Yes. Now your show really pushed the boundaries. You had some really interesting and exciting stuff on there. Was there anything on your show that really stood out as the edges that you’d seen on mainstream television like you had everything from Pi sex to clown sex to dogging.
Sunny Megatron: There was a lot. And even though I teach about this stuff, I also indulge in a lot of it in my personal life. So some of it was like, yeah, this is every Tuesday, whatever. But there were a few things we did a segment on for mycophilia where people enjoy the feeling of insects crawling over their skin and they find it erotic. And although I’m completely openminded there’s, that saying, your kink may not be my kink, but your kink is still okay. And it’s like, cool if that gets your rocks off. Great. But I hate bugs. So I was literally standing on the arm of a couch in the corner while they were filming it like, there are quite a few interesting things that we covered.
Dr. Jess: Oh, my goodness. I could not have all those bugs. I mean, I could have them crawling on me for, like, fear factor for the $10 million. Right? Definitely would not be arousing to me. I’m with you there. But people like you and me, we get that it’s arousing for other people. And so we’re here to support them in their journey, even if it’s not for us now, I probably couldn’t be in the room with the bugs like you. I might not be able to be there, but maybe we can offer some tips on making it safer and more pleasurable. What kind of bugs were they?
Sunny Megatron: All sorts of things. From crickets to the giant cockroaches to maggots, you name it. They had them and the crickets started escaping, and they were hopping. I mean, I was having a nervous breakdown. It was intense.
Dr. Jess: Okay. Crickets, I could handle cockroaches and maggots. Absolutely not. So I guess we all have a different line. Yeah, I’m okay with the crickets. I also don’t like potato bugs, but I don’t mind ants, right. Tell me something. Do they cover their orifices to ensure that the bugs don’t go near their orifices, or in their orifices?
Sunny Megatron: No, this was a person who had a penis. So there’s only really one major orifice. And I think that was clenched enough where they’re going to go in there. Yeah. No. The anus is not easy to crawl into. Right? The eyes? Not so much. What about the ears? There were a couple of times where it was more like, oh, he’s going in my ear and it was a giggle like. And he just kind of moved his head a little. He enjoyed it. He really enjoyed it. And that was the point. Wow. All right. And that is called again. Can you repeat the term for me? Because for mycophilia or mycophilia.
Dr. Jess: All right. So everybody’s going to go Google that one. I’m sure there’s some YouTube videos, or they can check it out on your show. Now, I did watch your show. I didn’t see that episode, so I’m going to have to go searching for it. Yeah. All right. Now we’re going to get into some of these sex acronyms. And what I’m thinking is that I’ll do a little bit of a rapid fire round with you to find them, and then we can pick a few to flush out because there are so many we can’t go over all of them. Okay. All right. I’m going to start with some more obvious ones. I will read the acronym and you can flush it out or just define it for us. Does that work for you?
Sunny Megatron: That works perfectly?
Dr. Jess: All right. So let’s start with BDSM.
Sunny Megatron: Bdsm is an acronym that covers the umbrella of all kinky things. It’s bondage and discipline, dominance and submission and sadomasticism.
Dr. Jess: Okay. Excellent. And lots of you are probably familiar with that one. How about and we’re going to cover some of these in just a moment, folks. But let’s fire through them. How about SSC?
Sunny Megatron: Ssc is safe, sane, and consensual. It is the cornerstone of everything that we do in BDSM.
Dr. Jess: All right. And then we have an alternative here. Rack rack.
Sunny Megatron: Yes. Rack is for people who practice BDSM. That maybe say that SSC doesn’t quite cover it. These are for people who play maybe a little bit more extreme that agree that anything we do, no matter how simple or easy it may seem, has inherent risk. And we all have to be responsible for the risk that we’re undertaking when we engage in those scenes. Right. And it stands for risk aware, consensual kink.
Dr. Jess: All right. Let’s get to this one. CBT, I shared your video on my Facebook page recently. Cbt does not stand for cognitive behavioral therapy in Sunny’s world.
Sunny Megatron: Yeah. Well, sometimes it’s chicken bacon, tomato sandwich when I’m hungry, but when I’m feeling kinky, it’s cock and ball torment or torture.
Dr. Jess: Okay. And how about SPH small penis, humiliation, fetish? We’re going to have to talk about that one. And I’m hoping everyone can understand my Canadian accent here with the Alphabet. Hopefully there’s no ZS. Okay, J-O-I Jack off instruction. Oh, I think I’d be very good at that one.
How about this one CEI?
Sunny Megatron: that’s Cum Eating Instruction, which is sometimes the finale to JOI.
Dr. Jess: Oh, my goodness. I like how this comes to you so quickly, so easily. That is female lead relationship. Okay. And how about DDLG?
Sunny Megatron: Ddlg stands for Daddy Dom little girl, but you can always switch it up and be Mommy Dom little boy or any combination.
Dr. Jess: Okay. And here’s what we’ve been talking about a lot lately. A-B-D-L.
Sunny Megatron: Yes, that is adult baby diaper lover.
Dr. Jess: Okay. We’re going to talk about that one.
Sunny Megatron: And CFNM closed female nude male.
Dr. Jess: I like the sound of that. That’s basically the opposite of every newscast and every television show and every magazine editorial.
Sunny Megatron: It really is. I enjoy it very much. W-A-M. That’s wet and messy. More commonly, people may have heard of the fetish called Splashing, where people pull out a tarp and rub pudding and different food items all over themselves. So that’s what that is.
Dr. Jess: We need to talk about that. And this one I’ve covered a little bit on my podcast in the past with a researcher, but it’s ASFR, yes, that is alt sex robot fetish, sometimes called technosexuality fun. And it’s interesting because even mainstream sex toys are crossing over into this territory now with their ability to control things from across the globe. Yes, this one is very interesting. I hear a lot about this. I receive a lot of questions.
Sunny Megatron: A-B-F. That is adult breastfeeding fetish.
Dr. Jess: Okay. And how about OTK?
Sunny Megatron: Oh, that’s not over the knee socks. It’s over the knee spanking. Okay. I went shopping and I was like, oh, this is a little label for OTK socks. I was like, oh, are those socks I should wear when I’m getting spanked? Oh, my God. I found that amusing. So you find, like, your fashion crosses over into your sex life. Oh, yes. And here’s one that I think most of us have a Bob, a battery operated boyfriend. Right. So not particularly kinky, but it can come in different forms. Yes. And then you opened with, I think, a line that I love so much. And I don’t even know who coined this term or this phrase, but it’s so important.
Ykimk yes, that stands for your kink isn’t my kink. But your kink is. Okay. So, for example, when we talked about the bugs, even though, personally, we’re both like, oh, that’s not for me. We still don’t want to kink shame other people because that might be their thing. And that’s perfectly fine.
Dr. Jess: Yeah. And I think that’s so cool, because I know that some of the fantasies that I play out. First of all, they’re not particularly aligned with my personal identity. So my sexual identity is different than the person that I live as all day long. And that’s not necessarily the case for all kinky people, but I know that people would think, why would you be into that? Like, what could possibly turn you on about that? But I don’t necessarily need a full explanation. I just know that it feels good to have this happy, healthy relationship. So we got to talk about some of these. So let’s start with CBT, because you recently put out a video on cock and ball torture. So what is cock and ball torture? What does it entail? And what is its appeal?
Sunny Megatron: Cock and ball torture can entail a bunch of different things. It can be as simple as just taking your hands and giving a good squeeze to the point of pain. It can be bondage where you take shoelaces and small rope and wrap it up. And there are all sorts of different devices you can use. There are ball stretchers ball weights, you couldn’t put clips and clamps. Really, your imagination is the limit. You can do lots of things. A ball busting is another one where people actually enjoy being full out, kicked in the balls, sometimes with people wearing thick heady boots. And whatnot now, when it comes to the appeal again, that’s going to be all individual, depending on the person. But what we tend to see is for a lot of people, there’s a very fine line between pleasure and pain, and that has to do with the chemical release, in some cases being similar, right? Exactly. Yes. And for some of us, some of us were like, no, my pain and pleasure are clearly in two opposite poles. But for some of us, those wires get a little bit crossed. And what can be perceived as painful to some people can be pleasurable for other people. Now I’ve talked to some folks, especially those that are into things like ball busting, where some of it also has a psychological component that oftentimes will go back to their middle school years. They might say that I was on the playground and there was this one girl who was kind of flirting with me and kind of bullying me, and we’d wrestle around. And one day she just out and out kicked me in the balls. And I don’t know what it is, but ever since then, I’ve attached some sort of eroticism to not only the pain of being kicked in the balls, but the humiliation of maybe being taken by a girl on the playground. And so that becomes embroiled in their fantasy and their sexual arousal, too. And that excitement, that tying of eroticism to a feeling of humiliation or an early experience of excitement that can make sense as the brain learns to associate the erotic with objects. For instance, we know this when it comes to fetishes that female rat has sex with a male rat that’s wearing a coat. She may become aroused simply by the coat. You learn to associate objects, experiences, feelings or even times in our lives with erotic pleasure. So that’s really interesting. And all of those, you can squash them, you can pull them, you can stretch them, you can torture them. Now it’s all about context, though. I really want to highlight that this doesn’t mean that when this person’s walking down the street, they want to be kicked in the balls. Correct. Correct. It all goes back to either SSC safe, sane and consensual, or risk aware consensual kink. The number one thing in both of those acronyms is consent. These acts are consented to. They are negotiated between all parties involved, and they’re very carefully planned out and done with thought and care.
Dr. Jess: Ok, let’s talk about another. Which one do I want to pick? How about CEI come eating instruction now in mainstream porn that is primarily directed at heterocuples, the person who eats or swallows the com is usually the female, but CEI usually refers to the opposite. Correct?
Sunny Megatron: Absolutely. Yes. Now this is oftentimes coupled with the acronym we talked about JOI, Jack off instruction. So this will involve usually a male who is in the submissive position. Maybe he is being instructed by a dominant. It may be a female. It may be a male, whatever their sex partner is, but ordered to actually eat their ejaculate. Sometimes it could be, oh, yeah. This is a treat. And sometimes it could be again, that humiliation and embarrassment. You know, I can’t believe you’re making me do this again. This is a role play. It’s not non consensual, but it’s part of the act. Oh, I can’t believe you’re making me do this. All gross, but I’m doing it for you. And that’s the appeal.
Dr. Jess: That’s really fascinating to me, because sometimes I think playing the submissive role allows us to experience sex acts and behave in a way that we wouldn’t normally embrace because we’re in the submissive role because we’re being told to do it. We can do things that, in fact, we wouldn’t want to admit we’re into, but we are into. Does that make sense?
Sunny Megatron: Oh, it absolutely does make sense. And a lot of these acronyms that we had gone over specifically deal with men being in the submissive role and oftentimes not always. But oftentimes it’s a woman who’s in the dominant role. And I find it really fascinating how a lot of these fetishes or acronyms go together. Maybe you’ll have a scene where you do JOI and CEI and CBT all at the same time.
Dr. Jess: And one of my theories is, as men growing up in North America, you have a certain set of expectations, what you may commonly be heard called in the media, toxic masculinity. You’re expected to be masculine in charge, be muscular and full of testosterone and kill the bugs and take out the garbage. And do we can warrior projects. And when you’re a man in the submissive role, it’s suddenly okay to just take all of those societal pressures away. The things that maybe haunt you during your daytime. You’re always trying to live up to these impossible masculine expectations where this is. Hey, it’s a mental vacation. You can be the weak one. You can be the one who’s crying, you can be the one who’s emotional or dependent, and it’s okay. And the person you’re playing with still wants you right. So that can be really cathartic. That makes sense. And I wonder, as toxic masculinity becomes eroded because we do see more men embracing their vulnerability, talking about their emotions, embracing roles that have been traditionally and culturally assigned to women. I wonder if some of the appeal of some of these kinks will, in fact, begin to dissipate because they don’t require that same escape. So the sex side might subside in terms of some of these activities, losing some of their appeal. But we see progress in real life around gender roles. I don’t think that’s something that we’re going to see today, but I think it’s a good time in history. I know we have a lot of negative news out there, but I think for the first time, people in positions of privilege are speaking out against their own privilege and looking to support the oppressed and not to get too political. But I think it’s a very interesting time. And ten years from now, we might see some of this now, back from politics to CEI with the cum eating instruction. One part that I find fascinating is that we don’t talk about a natural inclination just to want to know what it tastes like. It doesn’t mean you want to put it in a milkshake. But you must have some curiosity as to what it tastes like. For instance, again, in straight mainstream porn, the women are always tasting their juices, right? They always give it a lick or a suck. And so I think most women can say, yeah, I’ve tasted what it tastes like. Doesn’t taste like much. But men again, because of rigid roles around masculinity, I don’t think are allowed to say, yeah, like I’ve tasted it just to see what it tasted like. Right? This kink offers them permission to embrace that taboo.
Sunny Megatron: Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with you. And it’s funny because you’ll talk to some men who are raised in very rigid cultures where they’re expected to be heterosexual, and they avoid anything that might question their masculinity or heterosexuality. And you’ll ask them like, oh, I’ve never tasted it. That’s gross. And I think to myself, Come on, you have you’re just not admitting it. When we were kids, we tasted our snot, right. Neither is delicious. But we did it. Yeah. And I always say it can taste good or fine, but it’s not an ice cream sundae or something like that.
Dr. Jess: Exactly. I know that again, in porn, they make it look like it’s the most delicious, like red wine, Super Tuscan they’ve ever tasted as they swish it around their mouth. There’s such silly contradiction in which a woman is expected to love the taste of it, and men are supposed to naturally hate it. And I think again, as we allow ourselves permission to blend our gender roles, we’ll probably see some of these kinks shift to more inclusive, too. So the commuting instruction one is very interesting to me. The other one that I see a lot of that I want to talk about is the ABS adult breastfeeding. Can you tell me a little bit about what this involves and what you think some of the motivation might be for this? And many people have engaged in this, even by accident. Postpartum when you scored a little bit comes out, well, adult breastfeeding.
Sunny Megatron: There’s a number of things going on. I think one of the major things is, well, as you had said, it’s a taboo. It’s something we’re not supposed to do. So anything we’re not supposed to do, we kind of want to do. But the breastfeeding relationship implies a feeling of tenderness, of comfort, of connection, of emotional vulnerability that I think is a lot of the appeal as well. Yeah, it’s interesting because anytime we talk about anything intergenerational or anything that involves families, I think people family members. Sorry, people get pretty freaked out. But what you have to remember is that whether it’s like breastfeeding or the term milk, right. We know milk is really a misnomer. Milf stands for mom. I’d like to fuck, and I don’t, right? I don’t mind if my guests do. Of course, these fantasies are more connected to a desire for confidence and experience and the role of somebody taking control and being your teacher. It’s not really about your mom, right? It really is about, as you said, that role of caretaker. So with the breastfeeding fantasies, with the adult breastfeeding, how do you play this out? Like, are there toys for this? Are there tools and accusing milk in there? Right? At least for me right now, I know there’s no milk in there. How do people play it out? Well, one the obvious is if they have recently giving birth and they have melted great, you can actually induce lactation, even if you haven’t been pregnant. It’s not difficult. It may not always work, but if you start a pumping schedule as you would do it, let’s say something like five times a day, 15 minutes. You’d really have to devote a lot of time to this. There are some people that actually use the tens unit. The little thing that you get when you have back problems, the little pads and it makes electricity go in your back. It makes your muscles feel better. You can actually employ one of those to have some milk come in. Now, you’re not going to get your full milk. You’re going to get the precursor that colostrum. But you can make that happen even if you haven’t recently been pregnant or you aren’t pregnant.
Dr. Jess: Now, I did not know that. All I was thinking about was that movie Meet the Soccer, where he’s wearing those, like prosthetic breasts to breastfeed. Do you remember that? Yes. I was thinking maybe there are toys like that. You know, it’s interesting because I’m trying to recall and this isn’t personally a fetish I have. So there might be. And I just haven’t seen it, but I’ve seen a lot and I don’t recall coming across anything, but, you know, there’s got to be something. Now I’m going to have to look into that, right? It’s got to be out there. It’s probably very expensive because it’s not particularly popular. It’s not like your typical bullet vibe mass produce in the millions. So that’s not one you’re into. Is there one on the list that I read out that you are into that you’d be willing to share?
Sunny Megatron: I really enjoy, and I think you made a comment about this when we went by the clothed female nude male CFNM. Now I in my personal life consider myself a dominant and I play with men. I play with women. Gender really doesn’t matter. But one thing I do notice is when I play with men, typically men that consider themselves generally to be heterosexual or on the heterosexual side of buy a lot of the subservient man, like the come eating instruction, the Jack off instructions, the humiliation based things come out now with clothed female and nude male. I typically go to parties, and oftentimes you’ll see these as parties where there’ll be a number of women. For example, one I went to was like a brunch sort of thing where we had a couple of men completely nude serving us the food, but also at our feet, rubbing our feet.
Dr. Jess: Hang on. I’ve got to stop you. Thanks for the invite to this party.
Sunny Megatron: Oh, yeah, I know, right. These are so much fun, so much fun. And part of it when I talk to the men is obviously they like being submissive to women, but it’s the humiliation. Oftentimes we’ll make them stop. Put that tray of food down, bend over and spread your ass cheeks open and put yourself on parade for us, jiggle your butt around and they’ll turn red that we’re objectifying them and putting them on display and just treating them as our toys. And sometimes that even goes to for dessert. Maybe that’s a sexual act that you have to perform on me, not for your pleasure but for mine. Okay. But with consent, of course, with consent. Absolutely. And this is interesting because I really see something strong in many of these acronyms that really has to do with the subverting of gender roles. And you use the word objectification. And women, we are tired of being objectified, obviously. But men, on the other hand, don’t have many opportunities to feel like sex objects to feel desired. They don’t walk down the street and receive compliments, and we may not like walking down the street and being whistled at. But for men, they have the opposite, which is almost the absence of feeling desired. So this is really interesting. And the subverting of gender roles in so many of these acronyms, and maybe it’s just the ones I chose, I don’t know, some sort of Freudian desire there. No, it is interesting that I have honestly found.
Dr. Jess: I think there really is a societal trauma when it comes to men. All of these expectations are upheld to and all of these things that they’re forbidden to do or feel or engage in. And I see them really coming out in all of these fetishes. One of my theories is why a lot of these submissive man fetishes have acronyms is because a lot of men seek out professionals to do these things. So you might see an ad in well, back in the day, a newspaper now on the Internet where instead of writing everything out, hey, I’m looking for some Joi ending up with some CEI. It’s one a good way to disguise what you’re talking about. So only those in your inner circle know what you mean, and it’s just shorter and easier to type out. Right. That’s really interesting. One thing that has come up with a number of these, and this will be the last question before I know you have to go is the feeling of humiliation and tying humiliation to the erotic. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because I think if people aren’t into humiliation, they’re thinking, Why would you want to do that? Like something must be wrong with you. The wires must be crossed when, in fact, it has to do with taking a negative emotion and putting a positive spin on it.
Sunny Megatron: Absolutely. And humiliation is one of the things I think that’s most misunderstood. My partner Ken and I, we actually teach a whole afternoon intensive on erotic humiliation, deconstructing what it is and what it isn’t. First of all, humiliation is really subjective based on who you’re dealing with and who you are and what you find to personally be humiliating. Usually when you say to your average crosssection of the population, humiliation, they go immediately to thinking, those are the things that hurt me the most for me. I don’t want you to call me stupid or fat or ugly or useless. I would never play with those things when it came to erotic humiliation because that crosses my line. But something playfully humiliating might be my example. Before I’m going to take you and parade you around and make you shake your butt in front of all the people because I know it embarrasses you in a not an intense way. It’s not degradation. It’s more a little bit of shame, a little bit of embarrassment, lighter humiliation. So anyone who’s playing with erotic humiliation has to find kind of that equivalent for them doesn’t cross the line. We use the word shame there, and I think that’s a really important piece, because in our culture, sex and shame are so intrinsically linked. And some of these kinks allow us to rewrite the meaning of shame and reattach shame to the erotic in a more positive way. So there is a psychological side. I don’t think that we definitely don’t have a linear path description in terms of the data as to how some of these potentially negative emotions or traditionally negative emotions become erotic. But I do think that there is a rewriting of our personal sexual histories in some cases. Absolutely. I think it’s really important to remember overall that when you’re playing with kink, kink is not generally about whatever physical act you happen to be performing. It is about what is underlying in all of this, which is the mental. And for a lot of people, they can find it therapeutic. So as you said, maybe you’ve experienced legitimate humiliating experiences in your past and you walked away from those feeling like crap, feeling awful about yourself. Now, as you said, you can replay those again. But now you have control over how it ends. You can give that a happy ending, both literally and figuratively, instead of what you experienced early in life and over time, you’re healing yourself, maybe without even realizing that’s what you’re doing right. So it’s a reclaiming of some of these experiences and emotions.
Dr. Jess: I like that now. I wish we had more time to go into all of these, so perhaps I’ll have you back in another time and we can flesh out more of these acronyms. Where can people find you? Miss Sunny Megatron?
Sunny Megatron: Yes, you can find me in a couple of different places. One is at my website, which is just at www.sunnymegatron.com. My partner Ken and I also just started a brand new sex podcast. It’s called American Sex and that’s at americansexpodcast. Com. And as you said, you saw one of my YouTube videos. So I’m on all social media. When it comes to YouTube, Snapchat, just find me an at tag, Sunny Megatron, and I’m pretty much everywhere.
Dr. Jess: Awesome. Thank you so much for your insights and for sharing a little info about your own life, too. I find that people really like to hear that, and I like to hear it because I’m learning from you as well. Thank you. I had a great time and I would love to be back anytime we’ll have you very soon. Thanks, Sunny. Thank you. All right, folks. So that is a lot of information from CBT to ABS to OTK to ABDL. I know there’s a lot of info in that rapid fire. I can’t believe it. Sonny didn’t even miss a beat, right? I just say W-A-M. She’s wet and messy. She doesn’t even have to think about it. So we’re going to post these below on our website as well. If you want to read through them, and I’ll see if I can get some good links for you. I’m sure Sonny has some videos to which I can link as well. Wherever you’re at. However, however you feel about these terms, these sex acts or simply sexual fantasies know that you are okay. You’re going to be just fine.
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How To Prep For A Threesome
9 jul 2024· Sex With Dr. Jess
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Your Inclusive Guide to Pleasure, Consent & Connection
You listened to Part I of our threesome series, and now you’re back for the practical prep. In Part II of our threesome discussion, we share questions and prompts to consider before you have a threesome — for individuals and couples. We also share some of our listeners’ insights on how to prep for a threesome and discuss couples’ privilege. Whether you’re single, partnered, or somewhere in between, use the prompts below to design an experience that feels thoughtful, consensual, and genuinely pleasurable for everyone involved.
(If you missed our conversation with Dr. Justin Lehmiller, circle back for the research on who fantasizes, who follows through, and why the numbers don’t always match.)
When (and IF) you’re considering moving from fantasy to action, check out this post on how to prepare for your first sex party and ease your nerves while maximizing pleasure.
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Threesome Preparation Toolkit
Below are three sets of questions. Reflect on them solo, discuss with partners, or copy-paste into a shared doc. The goal is clarity about desire, boundaries, and after-care.
1. Personal Reflection
Threesomes: Self-Questionnaire
Why do you want to have a threesome?Where did the idea of a threesome come from? How do you feel about this source?What benefits do you expect to derive from a threesome?What are the perceived risks/costs?With whom would you like to have a threesome? Do you know if they’re open to it?How might your relationship with your threesome mates change post-threesome?What excites you most about a threesome? What motivates you?What concerns you about a threesome? Do you have any hesitations?What emotional elements of a threesome have you considered?How will you manage potentially challenging emotions should they arise?Do you feel comfortable communicating your desires and boundaries? What conditions increase your comfort level with open communication?What does your ideal threesome entail? Consider the setting, relationships, involved parties, sex acts, etc..2. Jealousy, Insecurity & Other Big FeelingsAm I comfortable admitting to feelings of jealousy, insecurity and distress?I tend to feel jealous/insecure/distressed when…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, it shows up in my body as…(emotional presence)When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I want to…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I can self-soothe by…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I’d like you to…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I don’t want you to…You’ll know when I feel jealous/insecure/distressed when I…Some other cues to look for include…3. Couples’ Conversation PointsWhose idea was it? Do you feel any pressure? Have you (in)directly pressured your partner?Why do you/we want to have a threesome?What do you/we hope to get out of the experience?What are my/our concerns about the experience?Have we talked about jealousy, insecurity and other potentially challenging emotions we might encounter?What would it look like if it goes well?What might it look like if something goes awry? How will we communicate and respond?What do we value in a third-party? What type of person do we want to connect with?Do we want to involve a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend and/or a sex worker?Have we considered our couples’ privilege and how we can ensure that all voices are heard and respected?
For exploring how jealousy might manifest, check out these strategies for managing jealousy so you feel more grounded and secure going in.
Threesome-Lite Options (If You’re Curious)Erotic dialogue: Describe a threesome scenario to each other in detail.Shared porn or erotic literature: Pause and discuss what you’d mimic or modify.Blindfold role-play: One partner uses hands, mouth, or toys to imitate “extra” sensations.Virtual play: Book a private cam session with a performer—tip generously.Observation night: Visit a sex-positive venue and simply watch, then debrief together.
Remember: Imagining or talking through a scenario is legitimate sexual expression. You never have to move beyond fantasy unless everyone involved wants to.
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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
EPISODE 221: How To Prep For A Threesome
(00:05):
You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
me.
Brandon (00:16):
Welcome to the Sex With Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.
Dr. Jess (00:23):
Hey, and it’s just the two of us here to talk threesomes. This is part 2, to follow up from last week’s episode with Justin Lehmiller and I think this is going to be an interesting discussion. Because we’re going to share two things, one is a set of conversations and reflections to consider before you have a threesome, sort the how to prepare. And also I wanted to share a bunch of your responses on threesomes because I received a gazillion. So I’m just going to read them at random. I’m not cherry picking them. I kinda just picked a whole bunch out totally random because yeah, I’m fascinated by what other people have to say about their experiences or their desires. So I put it out on my instagram and asked folks “who fantasizes about a threesome? Who actually wants to have a threesome?” And so as we said last week the data suggests that many people fantasize about a threesome, but not as many actually do it, and then somewhere in between there are people who want to do it. But on my IG, and we had thousands of answers actually, sixty one percent say they fantasize about having a threesome. Thirty nine percent say they don’t. And then the numbers are pretty much aligned for desire, which is interesting. Fifty nine percent say they want to have a threesome and forty one percent say they don’t know. I thought there would be more of a differentiation between fantasy and desire but for our followers, or at least the people who answered it, was just pretty much aligned. Which is interesting to me.
Brandon (01:46):
I would have thought that the number of people who desired a threesome would have been higher, just because of its prevalence in the media and TV shows. It’s like everyone always thinks that that’s the fantasy.
Dr. Jess (01:57):
Yeah and you know, according to Justin Lehmiller’s research, and research that came before it, you’re absolutely right, it’s within the higher eighty five to eighty nine percent range in terms of desire. I wonder too though if folks who may be engaged with my profile or followers in our community also may be a bit more reflective about what they want. So they’re not just watching porn and saying “oh threesomes”, and I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong or basic about wanting a threesome. I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with wanting to have a threesome. I definitely, it’s you know, it’s a fantasy for me. It’s something that we’ve definitely explored together. But I just thought I’d throw that data out there and then I’m going to read through some of your responses. But before I do I definitely want to announce this exciting new sponsor with whom we’re working, and that is Lovehoney. And you’re probably familiar with Lovehoney, because they have been in the business of sexual happiness for almost two decades. And I knew that they were big in the UK, but they’re really becoming a powerhouse in Canada and the States as well. And I know I work with many brands but Lovehoney a bit of a standout for a couple of reasons. First and foremost they recently received a couple of awards from the Queen of England.
Brandon (03:01):
What? The Queen of England’s getting her freak on?
Dr. Jess (03:04):
I guess so, you said it, I didn’t say it. You’re the Brit here. And secondly, they’ve actually been sponsoring my show on TSC all about sex toys. So I’ve become intimately familiar with Lovehoney products. Do you remember when the boxes arrived and the boxes were big enough for me to fit in? That’s how many sex toys we received. Boxes and boxes,
Brandon (03:22):
Copious amounts of sex toys thanks to Lovehoney. It was a little ridiculous.
Dr. Jess (03:28):
I loved it. I had to try them out and and it’s interesting, they seem to carry everything. Like I have never actually seen such a diverse range of products. Everything from kind of high end brand name toys that you’ll be familiar with from my other sponsors, so they carry everything. They also carry like little tiny pocket-sized travel toys with travel locks which is really cool to me, their Ignite line, they have lingerie, and they have their own line of products as well as the only Fifty Shades of Grey licensed product line. And I thought I’d bring up one of those toys, because it’s a bit of a standout in that I haven’t seen a toy like this before. And it is the Greedy Girl Thrusting G Spot Vibe. And I was doing a demo of it on TV the other day. I’m just watching this thing go, is so cool, so it obviously has this bulbous head that curves against the G spot, but it also is, it is almost like a gentle spring, so it also thrusts on the inside and then it has curved clitoral arm for the outside, so it’s kind of got every single possibility.
Brandon (04:32):
So it’s any partners perfect toy, because it removes any sort of additional responsibility to help the one partner get off.
Dr. Jess (04:39):
Like lower the pressure, yeah. And so Lovehoney has a big design team and they have a gazillion reviewers — I keep using that word — working on constantly improving their toys. So many of their toys have all these cool features, whether it’s — I keep going back to the travel locks and travel cases because that’s really relevant to me, since I’m hearing them in my suitcase — but I do highly recommend you check them out and you can check the links in my show notes or just head to lovehoney.ca or lovehoney.com. And you can use code DRJESS10 to save on, I think pretty much everything, which is a good deal because usually when there’s these promos there are many, many exclusions, but this one is across the site, so do check them out Lovehoney. And we want to thank them for their support. And with that, it’s time to dive into threesomes.
Brandon (05:25):
Let’s do it.
Dr. Jess (05:26):
All right, so last week we talked about the data with Justin Lehmiller, and this week I wanna talk about considerations and conversations that make for better threesomes. And one thing that we continuously hear, and I think Justin said this, and I said this, and the research shows, that when you prep for something, it’s almost always better right? In terms of the building of anticipation, the excitement, the pleasure, and I think also just the outcome right? When you’re prepared, it’s not just something you stumble into you know, because you’ve been drinking in a hot tub.
Brandon (05:51):
Yeah the first time I heard somebody talking about preparation was actually Luna Matatas at one of the trade shows. And she was commenting on preparing for kink play, and having discussions with your partner and it wasn’t something that I had really thought about before. But when Luna was explaining it, it made so much sense. You have this open conversation from the beginning, everyone explains what it is they’re hoping to achieve, what they want to get out of it, and more importantly, what are we going to do after the sex or the play is done? Which I, just you think about a threesome and I immediately go to pop culture, people are at a party, people have probably been consuming too much alcohol or whatever and then it happens and then it’s done. But when you think about planning everything and then okay, are you staying for food after, are you spending the night ,are you leaving? What do you want to get out of it? It could make the whole experience so much better.
Dr. Jess (06:44):
Yeah, the afterglow or the after care is so important. And it’s interesting you think about a party. I think about couples unicorn hunting, because that’s who I hear from so often, couples who want to find a third. And the messaging from couples is pretty consistent and also very predictable and fair. I understand that you know when you have something good you want to preserve it and so then you want to prioritize it, but in doing so I think a lot of us, and I think we have been guilty of this in the past, don’t really acknowledge and deal with our own privilege as a couple right? So I think that it’s so easy for a couple of say, “oh we wanna find a third person who will do this and do that.” They have this laundry list of wants and demands, but they aren’t really always thinking about the third person, so I think that’s a really important piece that a threesome isn’t just about adding third into your existing partnership or play.
It involves creating a whole new three way dynamic and connection, and this doesn’t mean that you all have to play or interact in the same way or it needs to be perfectly equal, but you want to attend to the feelings and needs and boundaries and desires of all parties. And having that laundry list of wants and demands from couples is a complaint that we hear from unicorns. And by the way, a unicorn is a single person who will hook up with a couple. Oftentimes it’s as cis woman, oftentimes they’re expected to be bisexual. Of course that is not always the case, but that focus on the couple, or even the focus solely on one person’s pleasure right, like “my husband wants this” or “my wife wants that,” can make them feel like they’re being used like a prop, like physically being used as a prop, or treated like a sex object right? No affection, no conversation, and I think it’s important that if you are checking in with partner, like your primary partner if you’re part of a couple, you are also checking in with this third person right? Really showing concern for their emotional and physical needs. And other things I’ve heard from unicorns, in terms of complaints, is they don’t want to be hunted aggressively right? When they’re just being bombarded with messages as though you’re shooting fish in a barrel again, it feels very objectifying. And the last complaint I’ve heard from unicorns is that they get outed without permission. Couples will sort of use them as a trophy head and say “we did this, we were with this person,” when they’re not ready to be outed. So I think it’s really important that we think about all three people creating this new dynamic, as opposed to it simply being something for the couple.
Brandon (09:03):
I mean I would say that you don’t have to think about the unicorn if you’re willing to pay a sex worker and have the discussion in advance.
Dr. Jess (09:10):
I mean you still have to think about them but yes it’s not.
Brandon (09:12):
I didn’t mean don’t think about them, but what I mean is you don’t necessarily have to you know, if you’re clear about you just wanna focus on your own pleasure or the pleasure of your partner, and not that of the sex worker, could you not then you make that request from the beginning and pay for it?
Dr. Jess (09:28):
Yeah absolutely, but also, always acknowledging I think the humanity and the emotional experience of everybody involved. That’s another topic I’d love to cover and how we can help folks who engage sex workers can make sure that they’re being really good clients. And I know we talked about that in the past with Andrea Werhun from Modern Whore, and I thought her tips were really helpful as well. So I just kind of wanted to put that out there, first and foremost the piece around acknowledging couples privilege and doing something about it and also, I’m not trying to make people feel guilty. You don’t have to feel badly you don’t have to feel guilty. It is natural to want to preserve your relationship. It is natural to want to prioritize your own needs and the needs of someone you already know and love. We just have to remember that this is a whole new dynamic. And so I would love to read some of the responses I got around threesomes from folks, and it’s just this huge range of perspectives about whether or not folks want to have a threesome. So one person says, I’m not gonna say any names, “It’s the greatest gift to give the one you love pleasure,” okay. Someone else says, “I want to try both MMF and FMF, I think there’s a lot to learn about sex from both,” this guy says, “if I want to disappoint 2 people I’ll just have dinner with my parents.” I got a lot of messages from folks who’ve said that they’ve had them, they’re kind of over hyped.
This person says “I’ve had them. And either I’m so concerned about making sure everyone involved is happy or I’m the one left out, so it can be kind of hard to engage three people.” This guy says, “I need to find someone who can last as long as I can so that she can enjoy two guys the same length of time.” That’s interesting, so for some people, I’m sure that’s true, for me that wouldn’t be true at all. Like the last thing, I presume that means like erection prior to ejaculation, I know I make it sound so sexy, I’d be less concerned about how long that lasts. Because there’s lots of other things to be done. Somebody says, “I’ve done it many times. It’s fascinating, love when both the girls sucks and then smooches each other,” okay. “If you’re in a couple make sure you debrief after each time and share any newly discovered limits,” okay, good one. “You might not know your limits the first time, so use each experience as a learning op,” true, true. A couple people just said, “I love threesomes,“ “I love threesomes,” asking me if I want to have a threesome with you, no thanks. And then just reminders that threesomes can be fantastic, sensual time, but everyone should talk first and get comfortable. Another person says, “yes, it’s my dream fantasy to have a threesome. It can be MMF, MFF, love to explore sex always.” Some folks are asking how they can convince their wife, and I’ll suggest you go back to previous podcasts about how you don’t “convince” somebody, you present and discuss. This person says, “I’m not sure I could handle that. I’m monogamous and sex is highly emotional for me,” so I think it’s really good that he knows his limits. Some folks say it needs to be planned and agreed upon first, as to who is doing what, and we’ll get to some of those questions. Oooh, this person says, “three months postpartum I had my virgin threesome with two men, double penetration,” and then they just wrote “fun.”
Brandon (12:26):
They went for it.
Dr. Jess (12:27):
I love it. I love it.
Brandon (12:29):
It’s impressive.
Dr. Jess (12:30):
This person says, “I feel it will ruin things in the long run.” Fair enough, and that may be the case for some people, sorry they added more, “I can’t handle the thought of my wife with another man. And I’m sure the same for her.” So it’s good that you again know your limits. You don’t have to do everything. A bunch of people just wrote, “it’s overrated, there’s a lot going on. I always feel like I need to process a lot after, and like I wasn’t fully present.” That really makes sense to me. Just the overwhelming physical interactions sometimes can be too much.
Brandon (12:58):
Yeah, there’s a lot of comments about, I mean the initial few comments people wanting to make sure that all parties were pleased. I think that’s really, it’s just a much more thought through process that I don’t think I would have been as focused on, if I was doing it for the first time.
Dr. Jess (13:12):
Yeah absolutely it can be very distracting right? Like I hear from a lot of cis men for example, who say that they lose their erection in their first threesome, because there’s just too much going on and too much pressure.
Brandon (13:23):
I could totally see that being the case. And there’s just, I did like the response about wanting to disappoint 2 people right, going for dinner. That was great.
Dr. Jess (13:32):
This person says that they used to plan threesomes earlier on in the relationship, but later they started to enjoy them when they were more random and unexpected, so maybe with experience you can change the way you interact. “I don’t think I could handle seeing my partner being intimate with another person. I’m too insecure.” That’s fair, and it may not be insecurity. It might just be your own values. Lot of people commenting on communication. Somebody says “the Eiffel tower is the best part of the threesome.” It’s the sex position. “I’ve been there, done that, was fun but not something I’d consider again.” If I was single I would do it, but my fiancee would not.” “Can you do it with friends? Can you do it with a stranger?” So I’m going to suggest you go back to the previous podcast in terms of the data around who people are having threesomes with. Somebody says, “It’s a teenage goal. It’s an over hyped experienced. It’s fun one hundred percent, but not life altering by any means.” I would say that’s kind of my experience as well. They say, “most men, it’s their holy grail, they want 2 women.” This person says, “having sex with 2 people means overflowing with pleasure. I get totally lost in the moment. It’s absolute bliss.” This person, this was a unicorn, that says, “I didn’t like having a threesome with a couple. I wasn’t attracted to the guy at all,” and then somebody says “I’m very insecure. I need to work on that first, it’s not where I need to be with my partner yet.” Yeah and I just wanna say that you know, we all are varying degrees of insecure. Like one day, I might be fine with something and another, I might feel really uncomfortable with it. And so you don’t have to necessarily work on that, I mean if you generally are feeling insecure sure, maybe you wanna work on that. But I don’t want there to be any pressure. So then there’s just a whole bunch more about preparing in advance, talking in advance, talking after, and then a lot of people who have done it saying it’s over hyped. So maybe I should put some pulling out on that, it wasn’t really hot, or it wasn’t really worth it?
So just wanted to share some of that kind of raw notes from the community on threesomes, before we get into now, why we are here, which is some of the questions that I think you can consider either on your own with partner or with all three people before having threesomes. I’m just going to go through them, and starting really broadly with why do you want to have a threesome? ‘Cause every damn group I work with, every group in the world, always, always, always, people are asking me about threesomes like my data is one hundred percent. I don’t think I’ve ever done a workshop where I don’t get an anonymous question about threesomes, always. And so my question is, why do you want to do it? Like what appeals to you about it sexually, physically, relationally, practically? So that’s I think an open ended question. So why do you want to do it? What benefits are you hoping to derive from it? What are the perceived risks and costs? I know people who’ve put together a kind of cost benefit analysis table. That’s how I think so that works for me. I know that’s not everybody’s cup of tea. With whom would you like to have a threesome? Like have you thought about that? Do you want it to be a stranger? Do you want it to be a friend? Do you want to engage a professional? Do you know if that person or those people are open to it? How might your relationship with your threesome mates change post threesome? What excites you most about a threesome? What motivates you? What concerns you? Do have any hesitations? What emotional elements of a threesome have you considered? Because you heard in our community response, that a lot of people talked about insecurity, there were also some notes on jealousy and all those things are fine. It’s okay to feel jealous. It’s okay to feel insecure. That happens and we can’t entirely avoid negative emotions. And in fact for some people, those emotions can be a turn on in a threesome. How will you manage potentially challenging emotions should they arise? So like, what if I do feel jealous? Does it mean that it’s devastating? Does it mean that it adversely affects our relationship? Or do I just say, “I feel a little jealous about that. I mean I kind of file that for later,” and may go through it at a later time. Or I know that when I feel jealous, I become so physiologically flooded that I’m just gonna freak out and run away right?
So how do you tend to respond to these these feelings? Do you feel comfortable communicating your desires, boundaries, right? Like what holds you back? Are you good at this? Do you know what you want? How do you want to feel in the threesome? That’s always my big question for people right, what is it you want to feel? What conditions increase your comfort with open communication? I think that’s a really important one especially as you’re engaging with new people or a new person. What makes you comfortable communicating your boundaries? Are there certain triggers that stop you from speaking up? What does your ideal threesome entail right? What is the setting? What is the type of relationship dynamic? Who’s involved specifically? What are the sex acts you want to engage in right? We’re barely kind of scratching the surface here. What are the things you want to do with your hands? What are the things you want to do with your genitals? What are the things you want to do with your mouth? What are the things you want to do with toys? Where do you want to do it? How do you want all parties involved? Like will 2 people play while one person watches and touches themselves or do you want all three people somehow physically engaged? Like, would you feel left out, if I don’t know they were genital to oral, or genital to genital, and you were just playing with their hair or their toes or their chest or whatever it may be? I think we have to think about those specific things. I’m not saying you can plan it out, then it’s gonna go exactly as planned. But if you can at least think about best and worst case scenarios, it can help you decide your desires and boundaries and communicate them. And I think it’s just really important to remember that it’s okay to experience a range of emotions.

Brandon (18:38):
When you’re asking these questions, I’m thinking of my own situation, what I’m comfortable with and not comfortable with, and it’s so interesting. Because as you’re talking through this, number one, all of these questions can in themselves become arousing and fantasizing. Like it creates a bit of a fantasy just having that conversation. But you had also made reference to you know, how would you feel if you saw your partner for the first time and you felt uncomfortable, or jealous, or any of those things. And I think even just mentally thinking about that situation kind of for me, puts me into that situation, so I can think about initiating those feelings, so that I can see how I respond, rather than just boom being in the situation and then all of a sudden being flooded with those emotions. So it’s almost for me a bit of a teaser in advance, to be like, “Oh you know what. I’m thinking about this, you with somebody else, and yeah, I’m feeling a little jealous, or I’m feeling insecure.” So now I put myself there and I’m already gauging how I respond, which I think would be a really helpful role playing scenario.

Dr. Jess (19:37):
And you’re thinking about it from the, definitely a couple perspective, because that’s our experience, but these questions are for everybody right? So even if you don’t know the two people you’re playing with, you can still feel jealous right? You can easily feel as though you’re not getting enough attention, you can easily feel as though you’re the third wheel, and so again I go back to okay. So what’s the consequence of that? Like if I don’t get enough attention is at the end of the world or do I just feel a little off in this moment? Maybe I lose interest in the threesome. Like what do I do if I’m no longer turned on, because I’m not having my emotional needs fed? And so I think for couples, I would add some additional questions. So we had you know ten, at least ten there to begin with, which take a while to get through. But if you are in a couple you want to kind of think about okay, so how do you anticipate this experience affecting your interactions with one another? How will you support one another before, during and after the experience? How will you make sure you support the third party before, during and after the experience? How will you make sure that you really think about this new dynamic and you don’t just prioritize yourselves? And how will you check in with one another during the threesome? How will you check in with the third right? And it can be simple questions. Like for example you know, I’m trying to think. If we’re going to play with a group of three people, whether it’s a couple and a single, or just three people coming together, a question like how will I know if you’re liking it, right? Or what will you do if you want more? Or you know, what are some cues I can look for in your body to let me know that something feels good? Or in the moment, it can be as simple as do you like that? Do you want more of that? You want less of that? Here or there?
Just giving people options and not assuming. And actually threesomes must be a really interesting one. And I gotta say like, I’ve observed this so many times because again, all of our models of sex come from porn, but especially threesomes. Most people haven’t seen a lot of threesomes. People act really porn-y, right? I don’t know, do you not remember that from seeing that at parties and clubs, like people being a little bit over the top, performative? And I want to be really clear, that’s not a criticism, because if that gets you off then by all means go for it. But what I’m trying to say is that don’t assume that what they do in porn is what you need to do in your threesome right? Because we have to remember porn is a visual medium right? It’s not a physical one. It’s partially audial, but they’re not focused necessarily on what the actors and performers are feeling. They’re focused on what it looks like for the camera. So even the way the three bodies set up, it’s so that you can see angles and perspectives that the camera likes. And in real life, you don’t have to worry about a camera, unless you’re into that.
Brandon (22:07):
Yeah, I mean for me, porn is where I learnt, I saw other people having sex. So my, when I was younger, the way I responded was based on what I saw in porn. Because I didn’t know on my own, how I was supposed to respond.
Dr. Jess (22:18):
So were you like a jackhammerer?
Brandon (22:20):
Yeah definitely when I was younger, it was just like I’m gonna go as fast and as hard as I can. Because that’s what I saw. And clearly, I’ve learned for me, that doesn’t always have to be the way that it needs to go. But I’ve learned that overtime. And I’ve learned that by also picking up on cues on how your body responds. So you asked some great questions, which is when you speak to your partner, or that individual, or the people that you’re having this threesome with, it’s like what cues can I pick up on? But it all goes back to having that conversation in advance, which frankly for me would almost feel unnatural before you even had sex. Sex is supposed to be the spontaneous thing that happens as opposed to a planned situation.
Dr. Jess (22:56):
But what if it’s more playful than that? Like what if you go for dinner for example, and that’s something you want to talk about as well, like are you just getting together for the sex or is there going to be dinner before, or drinks after or snuggling after? And you know I have heard from unicorns who say that you know, when they are with a couple, they wanna feel cared for right? Just like you wanna snuggle after, they may wanna snuggle after.
Brandon (23:17):
I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying, I do very much like the idea of having the conversation in advance.
Dr. Jess (23:24):
so couldn’t you make it playful at dinner? Or even via text? Like, “what are you into? Like, “what is it you wanna try?” Or “what’s your ultimate fantasy?” Or “what turns you on?” And I think that playfulness can be a really hot discussion. So it’s not necessarily sitting at a boardroom table and going through a checklist of “yes, I accept pinky fingers in my bum, but not thumbs. I accept two fingers on the vaginal canal, but not three. I love when you play with my right nostril but not my left nostril,” like it doesn’t have to be so regimented. Although it can be too, like for me, that wouldn’t bother me at all. I’d be happy to go through a checklist.
Brandon (23:58):
No, but you know, I just like the idea of even the dinner or drinks or whatever it is that you’re doing in advanced, can be the foreplay. Like it can be the lead up, the buildup, so for those, that hour or two or however long, it’s anticipatory right? Like you’re already getting riled up for what will come.
Dr. Jess (24:15):
Yeah, and you’re getting to know one another right? You’re picking up one another’s vibes, you’re picking up on their communication style, and we used, I think we see this all the time, not just for threesomes but for any kind of group exchange, so for example when we’re, the places where couples are hooking up with one another. You know you’ll see couples go to dinner, and then they often you know go dancing after, and then maybe if there’s a hot tub — I don’t know why there’s always a hot tub involved, but there’s always a hot tub for these situations — they go to the hot tub and hang out, and then it’s literally hours of building and conversation and getting to know them, before you actually get down to anything physical, do you notice that?
Brandon (24:54):
Yeah, and you know what, it creates some connection. It creates an environment like I said, the build up, it’s a lot of fun. You made reference to something and I’m just reflecting on it now. The idea of a notch on the belt, or being just another. And when I’ve had people approach me, or us, and I felt like that’s all it is, where somebody approaches you, says something, and then it’s like “oh you’re not interested,” boom on to somebody else. I’ve been like “oh okay, so yeah that was…” I mean again, that was just my response. But it was like, “yeah, that didn’t really feel that great.”
Dr. Jess (25:28):
Like they’re only into you, they won’t even have a conversation with you, unless there’s a chance that you’re going to have sex with them?
Brandon (25:34):
Humour me for five minutes. Have a conversation.
Dr. Jess (25:38):
Well that’s, interesting because you probably don’t experience that much as guy, but as a woman we get treated like that by men all the time right? Like if we’re not giving them what they want, they’re not gonna kind of quote unquote “waste their time on us.” And I think that’s a sociocultural, I guess norm around sex, that you just are working to get to one specific goal, and there isn’t the rest of the human interaction and connection. And I do have a previous episode with Luna Matatas from a longtime ago, where she talks about how unicorns are so often treated that way right? It’s just like they’re being hunted so hard, and so I think that’s something for all of us to keep in mind. Like I will tell you, I remember when I was twenty years old and I had first met you, and like we talked about threesomes, and I admit my only thought was, “how do we make sure we do this in a way that preserves our relationship? How do we find someone who’s a fit for us?” Like nothing on my mind was about a what kind of person, how do I want to make them feel, what are they into? And it was all like fantasy anyway, but I think that it’s just an important piece to remember, that there’s all this privilege that exists within a couple, and it’s obviously not only when it comes to threesomes. It has to do with taxation, it has to do with income, it has to do with how we live. It’s always my rule that if a third party comes out with us, if one of my friends comes for dinner, I’m like “no, no, no, we pay.” If there’s two of us, we always pay. I don’t know, we have dual income, even though some of my friends have partners at home, it’s just kind of the way I think.
Brandon (27:05):
Yeah, I agree. I mean the focus has shifted over time, and I think it’s more of a “I see the human in you.” Which is “I want to be nice to you, I want to make sure that you’re taken care of.” And like you said, if we go for dinner with somebody, I guess I’ve taken your lead on that, which is, if a friend or third person comes along, we’re gonna,
Dr. Jess (27:24):
I mean my lead is always pay. I hate being paid for, like always pay. And so as we have these conversations right, and there are so many considerations here, starting with the very broad about why you want to have a threesome? And how you want to feel in a threesome? To the very specific right, like are you willing to play with the anus? Are you willing to put your tongue here? What is it that you want to do, very specifically? I think I also want to offer the reminder that most people don’t have threesomes right? We talked about that data last week, and there are lots of different things you can do, even with these conversations, to kind of facilitate threesome lite, right? With a partner, whether it’s a long term partner, any sex partner, you simply just talking about it in bed right? Like talking about what it’s gonna feel like, talking about the things you wanna do, talking about the people you wanna do it with. And that can be very intimidating and very overwhelming, and as you said that can give you a taste of how you might actually feel in the moment, and you might say, “okay, I can push myself far enough where this is a huge turn on,” because of the risk, because of the jealousy, because, — not that everybody feels jealous — I’m just saying that’s a common experience, that the jealousy can be a turn on on both ends. And just talking about it, and that can give you an indication of whether or not you actually want to go through with it. There can also be kind of teasing when you’re out in public right, talking about how you’re going to go talk to someone or maybe flirting with someone, in a respectful way, you’re not leading them on or being untoward and they know that. Flirting really varies from culture to culture, like some of our cultures, flirting is very, very, open and normalized. And for others, flirting is something that we have to be a bit more careful with.
It could just be watching a threesome on film, like watching a scene and talking about what you wanna do and how you wanna do it and how you want to insert yourselves. Some people are having virtual threesomes right, interacting with a cam model in a private room. And making sure you pay them generously for their work. It could be that you role play right? So maybe I blindfold you, and I play with my hands and my tongue and a toy, and I make it so that you can’t physically differentiate between whose hands are on you, and talk about how I’m gonna share you, and how we’re going to please you. And the nice thing about fantasy is that you actually don’t have to consider anybody’s feelings, except for the people in the room right, you don’t have to worry about somebody else’s emotional needs. You don’t have to worry about whether you hang out after right? The role play allows it to be whoever’s in the room at the time. For some people, you can go watch threesomes. I have seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threesomes or group situations, I’m not counting them. and for me, whether there’s three of you or four of you or five of you, it’s kind of the same jam, except for that whole couple plus one dynamic, which you have to be aware of. So even just going to a place where threesomes are happening, like a sex club, and not being a part of them but being just in the vicinity of them. And of course doing it respectfully.
There are places where it’s meant to be exhibitionist and voyeuristic, and there are places where people are looking for privacy right? Like if they’ve tied the curtains around a four poster bed, you’re not going to peek through the little slot. But they, you know, there are sex clubs with rooms where there is a one way mirror, where your intended, you know you’re going to be watched. It could be that you don’t wanna have a physical threesome with a third party, but maybe you just want to engage some watching. It could be that you go for an erotic massage — and you can choose to make it non genital right — it can just be erotic, and again when you are working with professionals, please you know, show the utmost respect. Learn everything you can. Go back and listen to the Modern Whore episode of this podcast, with Andrea Werhun, for some perspective on how to honour and really show appreciation for sex workers. And of course, the number one way is to show your financial generosity, because that’s why they’re there.
Brandon (31:12):
Pay. A lot.
Dr. Jess (31:14):
Pay a lot, tip a lot too, tip heavy. So we’ve spent two weeks on threesomes, which we don’t usually do. We don’t usually split the episodes. But I wanted to leave you with this, and what I’m going to do is I’m going to put the questions for consideration in the podcast notes, because I have some additional ones for you to consider as well, some questions not only on why you want to have a threesome but also how you’re going to deal with distressful emotions right? Like are you comfortable admitting to jealousy, insecurity, distress? What makes you feel jealous, insecure and distressed? When you feel jealous, insecure, or distressed, how does it show up in your body? What do you want to do in those cases? How can you self soothe? How can a partner or partners support you? What do you want them not to do? What are some cues to look for in partners, if you are feeling those emotions? So I’m going to put that questionnaire up there as well, as well as a specific questionnaire for couples. And I don’t want to spend all the time on that today, but I can kind of quickly go through it before we wrap up. This is a questionnaire for couples to kind of moderate the threesome within the context of the relationship.
So whose idea was it? Do you feel any pressure? Have you indirectly or directly pressured your partner? What do you hope to get out of the experience? What are your concerns about the experience? What would it look like if it goes well? What happens if something goes awry? Like how will you communicate? How will you respond? How will you manage within the context of your relationship with one another? What do you value in the third party? What type of person do you wanna connect with? How do you feel about strangers, acquaintances, friends, sex workers? And what are you going to do about your couples privilege? Like how are you going to make sure that all voices and all desires are heard and respected? So, I think that there are questions that we can all consider, and then there are some that are specific to couples. So I’m gonna put those three questionnaires in the show notes.
The general questionnaire for threesomes, the one specifically on jealousy, insecurity and distress, and one specifically for couples to navigate with one another. And you can find those in the show notes at https://happiercouples.com, in the podcast section. So with that, we are going to wrap up. Before I do, I want to say thank you again to Lovehoney. They’ve been as I said in the business for many years, awards from the Queen of England, and like Brandon said, I guess she’s freaky and knows her stuff, so do check out Lovehoney online. We’ll put the links in the notes, but also you can use code DRJESS10 to save on pretty much any toy in the business, they’ve got them all. Thanks so much babe, for chatting with me today. And thank you folks for tuning in. We’ll be back next week with a brand new episode.
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4 Types of Couples — Which One Are You?
8 dec 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
4 Types of Couples – Which One Are You?
Thank you for reading and listening to our podcast (from us – Dr. Jess and B)! We truly appreciate your time and support. If you’re in the mood to shop for vibrating toys, please consider visiting our affiliate partners and use our discount code DRJESSVIP to save when checking out! We appreciate you.
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TL;DR – 4 Types of Couples
We explore a study identifying 4 types of dating couples — helping you better understand your relationship dynamics, commitment levels, and satisfaction.
Key elements of commitment:
Emotional attachment
Intention to continue the relationship
Influenced by satisfaction, shared investments, and social networks
The 4 Couple Types:
Dramatic Couples
Emotional rollercoasters
High reactivity to conflict
Tend to socialize separately
May struggle with stability
Partner-Focused Couples
Highest long-term satisfaction
Prioritize each other’s needs
Shared decision-making and emotional investment
Socially Involved Couples
Thrive on shared social circles
Friends’ support boosts relationship quality
Strong network = stronger bond
Conflict-Ridden Couples
High conflict, high passion
Cycles of fighting and making up
Intensity may mask deeper instability
Pleasure tools for connection:
We-Vibe Melt – for a warm, suction-based melt-away feeling
We-Vibe Tango – tiny but mighty with precision pulses
Magic Wand – a full-body classic with rumbling power
Use code DRJESSVIP at checkout to save!
Explore further:
How to Stop Bickering: 12 Strategies
Managing Burnout in Relationships
Mind-Blowing Oral: Clit Edition
Subscribe to the Sex With Dr. Jess Podcast and newsletter for more insights, tools, and pleasure-based education.
4 Types of Couples: Understanding Your Relationship Dynamics
Have you ever wondered what drives commitment in a dating relationship? In this episode of the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast, Brandon and I dive into a fascinating study that identifies four distinct types of dating couples. By understanding whether you and your partner are “dramatic,” “partner-focused,” “socially involved,” or “conflict-ridden,” you can gain insight into how satisfaction, investments, and social networks influence your bond.
Before we get into the transcript, let’s explore key research findings that can help you see where your relationship fits—and perhaps discover ways to enhance communication, deepen commitment, or even steer clear of patterns that aren’t working.
What Is Commitment, Really?
Commitment in relationships often hinges on two main components:
Attachment (emotional bond)Intention to continue the relationship
Researchers have shown that these factors are influenced by relationship satisfaction, investments (time, energy, shared goals), and the presence—or absence—of appealing alternatives. For dating couples in their mid-20s, believing that the relationship has a future plays a massive role in both quality and stability. As one study noted, “Commitment in relationships is usually centered around two things. The attachment and the intention to continue the relationship”.
The Four Relationship “Onions”1. Dramatic Couples
These pairs experience frequent ups and downs. Their commitment tends to swing dramatically, often in response to negative events or thoughts about the relationship. They may spend significant time with separate friend groups and pursue individual interests. If you find yourself regularly riding an emotional rollercoaster, you might be a dramatic couple—and recognizing this can help you break cycles of instability.
2. Partner-Focused Couples
With the highest likelihood of staying together and feeling content long term, partner-focused couples prioritize each other’s needs. Shared decision-making, mutual consideration, and a strong focus on your partner’s well-being characterize this group. Even if you don’t rely heavily on a shared social circle, putting each other first cements a deeper, more stable bond.
3. Socially Involved Couples
These couples derive a lot of support and closeness from shared friend groups. When your mutual friends root for your relationship, it strengthens both your satisfaction and commitment. Just as importantly, you can lean on your social network when challenges arise. If your relationship thrives when your friends are involved—and you feel closer when loved ones approve—you’re likely socially involved.
If conflict feels overwhelming, don’t miss our guide on How to Stop Bickering: 12 Strategies.
4. Conflict-Ridden Couples
Here, dips in commitment follow arguments or tension—but so does passionate attraction, pulling partners back together. If you oscillate between heated fights and intense make-ups, you likely fall into this category. While such passion can feel thrilling, it may not be sustainable without other stabilizing factors, like shared goals or supportive friends.
For practical advice on managing emotional overload, check out Managing Burnout in Relationships: Conservation of Resource Theory.
Enhance Your Pleasure While You Learn
Since social connection and shared experiences matter, we also want to spotlight a few ways to nurture both intimacy and fun:
For a silky, melt-away sensation, try the We-Vibe Melt.If you’re curious about exploring new rhythms together, consider the We-Vibe Tango.Looking for deep rumbles? The Magic Wand remains a classic for couples eager to connect on a whole-body level.
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Whether you’re a partner-focused duo or a conflict-ridden pair, integrating an intention-driven intimacy tool can strengthen bonds and remind you to invest in shared pleasure.
Ready to Dive In?
Enjoy—and remember, commitment is as much about shared values and social support as it is about passion, satisfaction, and communication.
If you’re enjoying this content, please subscribe to our newsletter and tune into The SexWithDrJess podcast. Don’t miss our Mind-Blowing Oral: Clit edition for expert tips and techniques to elevate your pleasure.
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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 344
4 Types of Couples — Which One Are You?
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Alright, alright. Are we ready to talk about four types of couples?
[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: I’m always ready to talk about four types of couples. Which four types of couples are we talking about?
[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: Four types of couples. Which one are you? It reminds me of like a quiz. What type of onion are you?
[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: I’m a white onion.
[00:00:28] Jess O’Reilly: You are a white onion.
[00:00:28] Brandon Ware: Because I can only name two types of onions.
[00:00:30] Jess O’Reilly: What’s the other one?
[00:00:31] Brandon Ware: Red onions.
[00:00:32] Jess O’Reilly: What about Vidalia?
[00:00:33] Brandon Ware: I don’t know what that is.
[00:00:34] Jess O’Reilly: Green.
[00:00:35] Brandon Ware: Sure. Green.
[00:00:35] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. Spanish.
[00:00:36] Brandon Ware: Okay. Listen, listen.
[00:00:38] Jess O’Reilly: Shallot.
[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Onion connoisseur.
[00:00:41] Jess O’Reilly: I like an onion. So we’ll be talking about four types of couples and some research. But before we do that, I wanted to very briefly dive into some other research and data that I’ve come across this week.
[00:00:51] Jess O’Reilly: And we have a little announcement at the end, I guess before we dive into it, I need to shout out adamandeve. com because they’ve got a big, big, big sale going on. And. You can save 50 percent off almost any single item plus free shipping and rush handling with code. Dr. Jess 50,
[00:01:08] Brandon Ware: Dr. Jess 50.
[00:01:09] Jess O’Reilly: Go buy something that vibrates something. Okay. Question for you.
[00:01:12] Brandon Ware: Yes.
[00:01:12] Jess O’Reilly: Are funny people more attractive to you?
[00:01:15] Brandon Ware: Funny people are more attractive.
[00:01:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like, are you attracted to funny people?
[00:01:18] Brandon Ware: Yes.
[00:01:19] Jess O’Reilly: Hang on. Am I funny?
[00:01:19] Brandon Ware: Hold on. Yes. You’re very funny, but what, but what else is like, what’s the and
[00:01:24] Jess O’Reilly: well, the question is, are you attracted to humor? Or do you find attractive people funnier?
[00:01:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I’m going to just say this. So I noticed that every little joke, like every little snide remark, every little kind of anything I say, that’s even a little bit funny, I noticed you really laugh at, and I’m like, this guy’s my biggest fan, but
[00:01:41] Brandon Ware: I’m your biggest fan. For sure.
[00:01:42] Jess O’Reilly: Is it because I’m funny? Is it because you get my jokes or is it because you just like me?
[00:01:46] Brandon Ware: I think it’s a combination of all those things. But I also think that I don’t want somebody who’s. Super funny and not attractive to me. So it’s a combination of both.
[00:01:54] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, you mean physically attractive?
[00:01:55] Brandon Ware: Physically attractive. Yes.
[00:01:57] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Now everybody talks about how funny you are.
[00:01:59] Brandon Ware: Well, I’m super [00:02:00] hilarious.
[00:02:00] Jess O’Reilly: No, but like everywhere we go, everyone’s like, Brandon’s so funny and I don’t see it.
[00:02:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I think you’re, you’re, you’re missing out.
[00:02:08] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe everyone else is more attracted to you.
[00:02:10] Brandon Ware: Sometimes I don’t even need people to hear my jokes. I will just, have you ever caught me laughing to myself?
[00:02:15] Jess O’Reilly: Says the guy who has a microphone in front of him.
[00:02:17] Brandon Ware: I know, but I don’t need people to laugh at my jokes because I can just tell myself jokes. I’m hilarious.
[00:02:21] Jess O’Reilly: I do that because I used to spend so much time alone. I’d like be making jokes in my head and laughing through the airport. Now I have you to be my laugh track. Okay. So Kenneth Tan, an assistant professor of psych at Singapore Management University, he and his team set out to look into whether humor breeds attraction and connection.
[00:02:37] Jess O’Reilly: Or if it is perceived as a result of that attraction and connection. So they studied 108 young couples in relationships. I should probably note that these couples had only been together around 18 months as usual. Convenient sample college, probably college students. So every day they reported their perceptions of humor in their relationships, as well as their levels of satisfaction, commitment.
[00:03:00] Jess O’Reilly: in the relationship and their perceived partner commitment. And what they found was that those who were more satisfied and committed to the relationship on a particular day, also found their partners funnier that day and the next day.
[00:03:13] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I get it.
[00:03:14] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, like if I’m mad at you, I’m not going to admit you’re funny.
[00:03:16] Brandon Ware: No, but I am funny.
[00:03:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So the moral and Oh, here’s another thing they found. So here’s what the researcher said on the days. Where you were less satisfied and committed with your relationship. You found your partner less humorous, both on the same day, as well as the next. On the other hand, we didn’t find consistent evidence of the reverse.
[00:03:33] Jess O’Reilly: So on the days you perceived and initiated more humor, it wasn’t associated with greater commitment the next day, only satisfaction. So,
[00:03:40] Brandon Ware: so how do you deal with it when we get into an argument, but you find me so funny that day and the next day, like, is it hard for you? Tell me the truth. Like,
[00:03:47] Jess O’Reilly: okay. So we use a lot of humor and I think we laugh even when we’re fighting.
[00:03:52] Brandon Ware: I mean,
[00:03:53] Jess O’Reilly: mostly
[00:03:53] Brandon Ware: one way, but yeah, I get it.
[00:03:55] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Yeah. Only me. Okay. Moral of the story of this study is that Brandon isn’t funny. I [00:04:00] just like him. Next up, next study, apparently, okay. Let me ask you what you think. Do you think opposites attract?
[00:04:08] Brandon Ware: No, not entirely.
[00:04:09] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:04:10] Brandon Ware: I think that there are, we have a lot of similarities.
[00:04:12] Brandon Ware: I think our core values align in a lot of ways. And I think because of that, we are. Um, we engage in conversations, perhaps we commiserate, uh, but I think that those core fundamental values align. And I think that that is so contradicting your opposites attract, but there are other parts of our, of our being, of our personalities that I think are very opposite, I think.
[00:04:35] Jess O’Reilly: I think of us as so opposite in so many ways.
[00:04:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I think that you’re much more of an extrovert than I am.
[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: That’s funny though, because I think when people meet you, you, you also kind of come across as an extrovert. Like you’re pretty chatty, you initiate conversation, you ask people a lot of questions, you like to entertain.
[00:04:49] Jess O’Reilly: This man loves to tell a story. He likes to hold the whole table and tell a story.
[00:04:54] Brandon Ware: Yes, only if it’s a good story though. And I’ve got some good stories. Wow. But. I guess I’m just thinking about how much of an extrovert I perceive you as. And yes, you’re right. I am not an introvert. I am just more introverted than you are.
[00:05:08] Brandon Ware: So perhaps the bar for that is, is quite.
[00:05:11] Jess O’Reilly: Just cause I’ll talk to anyone for any given time.
[00:05:13] Brandon Ware: We were at the other day and you were talking to someone. I’m like, why are you talking to this person? I’m like, I don’t want to talk to this person right now. Like I just want to take my coffee and go. And I love talking to a barista, but I’m just saying.
[00:05:22] Brandon Ware: I just didn’t want to talk that day.
[00:05:23] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, I guess we have lots in common, but also we’re very, we’re very different in some ways. So this study, they reviewed previous research and they actually looked at 22 traits across nearly 200 research papers. So it involved millions of partnerships. They were all male to female because they’re doing a separate analysis on the same sex partnership data.
[00:05:42] Jess O’Reilly: And so they looked at all of these old studies, or not old, but studies, 200 papers, and some of them did go. Quite a ways back, like a hundred years. And then they looked at newer data. So an analysis of 133 trades. What’s so funny?
[00:05:55] Brandon Ware: I’m just like, what are you like? I love walking up the hill, 480 [00:06:00] vertical feet and snow with no shoes on.
[00:06:03] Jess O’Reilly: Is that what you think the world was like
[00:06:04] Brandon Ware: a hundred years ago? That’s what it was. Yep. That, and it’s like, I don’t know, a whole bunch of other things. ,
[00:06:10] Jess O’Reilly: I’m watching the Gilded Age, not gonna comment on that. That’s even longer than a hundred years ago. And they didn’t walk. They were rich people. They took carriages,
[00:06:15] Brandon Ware: they took them with horses.
[00:06:17] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know.
[00:06:18] Brandon Ware: They were pooping in a poop bag behind them. I, so, and you could smell it. This is, this is where my brain goes.
[00:06:22] Jess O’Reilly: This is why I don’t watch TV with you.
[00:06:24] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I know.
[00:06:24] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So in addition to the 200 papers they reviewed, they looked at 133 traits in nearly 80,000 couples who are enrolled in the UK Biobank project.
[00:06:35] Jess O’Reilly: All right.
[00:06:35] Brandon Ware: Curious about what the biobank project is.
[00:06:37] Jess O’Reilly: I know, I really should have looked that up. They give urine and marital satisfaction data.
[00:06:41] Brandon Ware: What kind of bodily fluids do you have to volunteer biobank?
[00:06:45] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, fast forward. Both data analyses found that couples pretty much match up across a range of traits, including political and religious views.
[00:06:53] Jess O’Reilly: Doesn’t surprise me. IQ. education levels, and even habits like smoking, drinking, heavy drinking. So height, weight, medical problems, and personality traits, um, some of those types of things varied among couples. And here’s an interesting one for you. Extroverts were no more likely to partner up with other extroverts than introverts.
[00:07:12] Brandon Ware: Interesting.
[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s that one thing that’s different, but Overall, these traits, including, for example, age, makes sense, number of sexual partners in the past, and even whether or not they were breastfed as a child tended to match up. Were you breastfed? Do you know, do you remember?
[00:07:25] Brandon Ware: I don’t, I don’t recall.
[00:07:27] Brandon Ware: I don’t remember anything from before I was about 10.
[00:07:30] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I don’t think anybody remembers like the act of being breastfed.
[00:07:34] Brandon Ware: Or is anybody, can somebody else please email it? Tell me if this is how you feel. Maybe before I was eight, I think I remember one event from every year. Maybe it’s like, what am I blocking out?
[00:07:45] Jess O’Reilly: I remember being free.
[00:07:47] Brandon Ware: You remember everything. You remember the day your sister was born.
[00:07:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I do remember the day my sister was born, which was exactly, I guess, 37 months after I was born.
[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I don’t remember anything from before. I was like, seriously, I think my first memory is when I was like. [00:08:00] Five,
[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: and I remember details
[00:08:02] Brandon Ware: and then there’s a big gap to eight.
[00:08:04] Jess O’Reilly: Those are the three bad years.
[00:08:05] Brandon Ware: Something happened there.
[00:08:07] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So, okay. So we basically have previous research prior to the study that has shown that romantic partners tend to share core beliefs, values, hobbies, and we tend to connect with people who are in our area, right? So in our friend group, in our general proximity, and so they’re.
[00:08:23] Jess O’Reilly: pointing to some concerns around, for example, concentration of wealth, because the more we continue to partner with people with similar family backgrounds, similar economic backgrounds, similar educational backgrounds, and therefore similar career and earning prospects, the more some of us will be able to.
[00:08:40] Jess O’Reilly: Kind of hoard and grow that wealth for the future unless we redistribute wealth for generations and then it can of course make climbing the economic ladder harder for folks who don’t have access.
[00:08:49] Brandon Ware: So kind of reminds me a little bit of that attraction selection attrition model where you know who you attract is like it ends up being very homogenous.
[00:08:58] Brandon Ware: Like the type of people that you attract.
[00:09:00] Jess O’Reilly: And so that’s a model from IO psychology. So it tends to work, relate to the workplace. So maybe explain that for folks.
[00:09:06] Brandon Ware: So, I mean, from what I understood, it was you attract a certain type of people. You select that type of people that you, you know, that you embody the principles that you reflect, and then the attrition from people who maybe don’t fit into that same model results in homogeneity in your organization, or perhaps even within your friend group.
[00:09:23] Brandon Ware: So it’s just making me think about those same principles and you’re talking about. Those circles.
[00:09:28] Jess O’Reilly: So what are in the IO side, like in the organizational side, what are some ways to offset the fact that we tend to attract and further support people who are like us?
[00:09:38] Brandon Ware: Well, I mean, diversity is the biggest one.
[00:09:40] Brandon Ware: I mean, just having people in your organization making those decisions and being involved in those decisions, I would assume bringing different perspectives and different, um, analyses is a huge contributor to that. Changing that model
[00:09:52] Jess O’Reilly: and really thinking of the supports because we, okay, yes, you can attract the candidates, but how do you make sure that it’s a supportive environment for [00:10:00] them, an environment where they can not only succeed, but kind of grow in that role.
[00:10:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I would think that the supports we tend to seek out or enact or prioritize, like in that, say at the management level or the executive level are ones that appeal to us. So we have to think outside that box. Right.
[00:10:15] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:10:15] Jess O’Reilly: And so I’m thinking, okay, so it’s. Inorganizational programming, it seems more straightforward to me.
[00:10:20] Jess O’Reilly: But what do we do in dating if we keep going after the same type of person?
[00:10:24] Brandon Ware: What was I reading or, or somebody was telling us something recently. Nobody was telling us anything. I was thinking about that dating app. I’m sorry. In Ted Lasso, where it wasn’t, there was no physical mark, like there was no photographs.
[00:10:37] Brandon Ware: There was nothing. You remember that whole, um, where it was just based on how Sam ends up with Rebecca. But I mean, thinking about that from a dating perspective, maybe looking beyond, you know, who you have historically wanted or been told to date.
[00:10:53] Jess O’Reilly: The problem is with resources, people like we, I still hear so many people talking about wanting to date someone who earns as much as them or earns more than them.
[00:11:01] Jess O’Reilly: And then we see that along gender lines. We’re not going to solve that problem today.
[00:11:05] Brandon Ware: No, not today.
[00:11:06] Jess O’Reilly: But all of us a little bit at a time. Okay. So now we get to why we’re here. What type of onion are you? So a university. A University of Illinois researcher, Brian Ogolsky, has identified four distinct approaches that dating couples use to develop deeper commitment.
[00:11:28] Jess O’Reilly: So he’s categorized them after analyzing data from 376 couples who are dating in their mid 20s, again, that young sample. And he tracked their commitment levels and their reasons for staying committed or not staying committed over the course of nine months. And so before we get into the four types, I think we have to talk about what commitment is in relationships.
[00:11:48] Jess O’Reilly: And because it’s a study, I think we have to look at how commitment is generally designed in research that looks at relationships. So commitment in relationships is usually centered around two [00:12:00] things. So the attachment and the intention to continue the relationship. And in research, they’ll often talk about it being influenced by satisfaction.
[00:12:08] Jess O’Reilly: by investments in the relationship and by the absence or downgrading of better alternatives. And so the one that strikes me as super important here is investments, because that’s really the way I like to frame relationships. And I know some people don’t love that word, but I’m literal, so I like it. And so the investment model, when we look at relationships, defines commitment in three components.
[00:12:31] Jess O’Reilly: So psychological attachment, so that, I guess, emotional bond. Long term orientation, which is the belief. In the relationship’s future and then intention to persist, which is just, you know, commitment and motivation to continue the relationship. And these components tend to operate differently in different types of relationships.
[00:12:49] Jess O’Reilly: So dating versus for example, long term or married. So in dating couples, the belief that the relationship will last is crucial for quality and stability. And in long term committed, for example, married couples, the intention to stay together is the most important. important factor in avoiding divorce.
[00:13:06] Jess O’Reilly: That doesn’t mean that it, it’s representative satisfaction, but if we’re going to talk about commitment and look at these four types of dating couples, and I think it can apply even if you’re not dating. So I just think it’s important to note that dating and married or committed couples experience commitment differently with future expectations playing different roles.
[00:13:24] Jess O’Reilly: So basically I’ll get to the fun stuff, the types of onions. So the first type of couples. Couple that they found was the dramatic couple.
[00:13:32] Brandon Ware: What? Oh my God. Tell me more about them.
[00:13:37] Jess O’Reilly: So these couples tend to have more turbulent relationships characterized by more frequent ups and downs. Their commitment tends to fluctuate more wildly and is often influenced by negative events.
[00:13:50] Jess O’Reilly: Or discouraging or negative thoughts about the relationship. So one thing they found with dramatic couples is they tend to prioritize spending time with separate [00:14:00] friend groups, with individual friends and engaging in separate activities, which is interesting because we definitely do that.
[00:14:05] Brandon Ware: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:14:07] Jess O’Reilly: And what they found with dramatic couples is that this instability can erode the commitment over time. Now, having said that, he’s come up with these four types, or the team has come up with these four types, but you can fluctuate between them, and at different periods in your relationship, and over the course of dating, it can change.
[00:14:23] Brandon Ware: In the dramatic group, did they make reference to whether or not the instability is as a result of, sorry, having the different friend? Is that what they were saying or did they not really elaborate on it?
[00:14:32] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know if they drew, I think they just drew a correlation.
[00:14:35] Brandon Ware: Oh, okay.
[00:14:35] Jess O’Reilly: So, I mean, if you go and read just regular mainstream articles, they’ll go and overstate those things.
[00:14:41] Jess O’Reilly: So if you ever read articles on any topic, especially, I mean, I’m obviously more familiar with relationship stuff. Sometimes I’ll read an article with an interesting framework like this in a magazine or in a newspaper, but then mostly in magazines, I see these problems. Then I go to the journal where it was published and Sometimes what they’ll state in the magazine is either overstated or inaccurate, right?
[00:15:03] Jess O’Reilly: Like they’ll, so they’ll sometimes draw that correlation and turn it into a causation, right? It’s something like having separate friends leads to unhappy relationships when in fact, if you go to the data, that’s not exactly what it says or not even close.
[00:15:16] Brandon Ware: So after dramatic, what do we have?
[00:15:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. We have partner focused couples.
[00:15:20] Jess O’Reilly: So couples in this category have the highest likelihood of staying together and being content in the longterm. So again, remember they’re looking at people who are dating here, not married couples, and actually the purpose of this study was to look at movement towards marriage specifically. And then there’s all sorts of cultural commentary that we could talk about there, right?
[00:15:37] Jess O’Reilly: Because people’s personal views, sociocultural views toward marriage vary, not everybody wants to get married. In fact, I was reading a super interesting article about attitudes toward. Marriage in Spain specifically today and how people are very conflicted about marriage. It’s a very small percentage of young people who are either traditionalists or eager to get married.
[00:15:57] Brandon Ware: Well, in having these conversations with [00:16:00] people in different, uh, bars and restaurants and cafes, when we’ve been to Spain, hearing them talk about how they perceive relationships and marriage, like even the other day, talking to somebody in Spain about, uh, children and children being the, almost like the catalyst to getting.
[00:16:15] Brandon Ware: Married or being, um, sorry, a prenuptial agreement, almost like a civil agreement that they have here. So it’s just very different from country to country.
[00:16:23] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And it’s also different from generation to generation. So I actually was able to quickly pull up the study on marital beliefs and concerns of Spanish emerging adults.
[00:16:31] Jess O’Reilly: So I think the age was 18 to 30. So young people, but still adults, 9 percent fall into the indifferent category. 8 percent reject marriage. 15. 5 percent are hesitant. About getting married, 5 percent are convinced. So you’ve got 5 percent who are committed to the idea. They need to put them in one bar so they can all find each other.
[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: Like here’s here. That’ll be the nightclub that opens at 11 PM instead of 1 AM. And then they have 2. 5 percent who are traditionalists. So they believe in the concept of marriage as well. And then the largest group say that it’s contextual. So it depends on the context of the relationship, whether or not you have kids, whether you have the financial means and that’s 60%.
[00:17:10] Jess O’Reilly: But if we go back to, you know, partner focused couples having the highest likelihood of staying together, we also have to think about how the study was looking at movement toward marriage and that there are other reasons we don’t want marriage and it’s not necessarily about the partner. So partner focused couples exhibit high levels of conscientiousness.
[00:17:28] Jess O’Reilly: They emphasize thoughtfulness in their relationship choices. Many of their decisions are made with the focus of one another in mind. They may share a social network, but they don’t heavily rely on it to maintain their commitment. So, I mean, I think I’ll go through them, but I think that most folks Can kind of see where they fall, even if you’re really early in the dating relationship, because I get a lot of questions that I’m not qualified to answer around, how do I know if this person is the one for me, but I think that if you can look and say, okay, so we’re, we seem like we’re more dramatic or we seem like [00:18:00] we’re more partner focused or next step, we have socially involved couples, and I think we’re probably seeing more of these, they didn’t indicate.
[00:18:07] Jess O’Reilly: The percentage of the general population who falls into each category in terms of daters. But I think we probably see more socially involved couples because more of us are dating within our friend groups or starting to date friends, people we’ve been friends with for years. Similar to partner focused couples, the socially involved couples report very high relationship satisfaction and stability.
[00:18:26] Jess O’Reilly: And they share a social network and this network influences their commitment to the relationship. So having mutual friends strengthens their sense of closeness and commitment. And it really aligns with the idea that long term relationships are perhaps based on friendship based love or supported by a friend group.
[00:18:43] Jess O’Reilly: And I I’ve seen so much data in this respect that the way your friends feel about your partner. Influences or is sorry, is correlated with how you feel about your partner. And then finally we have conflict ridden couples. So these couples experience decreases in commitment after conflicts or arguments, but it doesn’t necessarily lead to a breakup.
[00:19:03] Jess O’Reilly: So these are the ups and downs, right? So their commitment levels can ebb and flow because of tension and conflict, basically pushing them apart. But then here’s the fun part. Passionate attraction, pulling them back together. So this type of love may not be sustainable in the long run. And individuals in these couples may transition between kind of different groups over time.
[00:19:22] Jess O’Reilly: So you can have conflict ridden periods, but still have, you know, stability in the relationship because you’re also partner focused or you lean on your social networks.
[00:19:33] Brandon Ware: It’s passion centered,
[00:19:34] Jess O’Reilly: conflict ridden couples,
[00:19:35] Brandon Ware: conflict ridden, have a lot of passion. I’m sorry. I just, it sounds exhausting.
[00:19:38] Jess O’Reilly: See, I’ve always been a little jealous of these couples.
[00:19:40] Jess O’Reilly: I’m like, I want to be so mad at you that the passion overtakes me and it’s just. Like animalistic, visceral, nasty attraction.
[00:19:48] Brandon Ware: Yeah. When I’m angry, I’m just angry.
[00:19:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I know.
[00:19:50] Brandon Ware: I’m just, I’m not like, yeah, let’s do it. I’m, I’m always like, Oh, I’m just so upset right now. I don’t want to do it.
[00:19:58] Jess O’Reilly: So anyhow, I think these, [00:20:00] these four frameworks can be interesting to think about how you cross over.
[00:20:03] Jess O’Reilly: Because I think that, for example, we’ve had periods where, where it has been more conflict ridden. I definitely think we’ve had some periods where we’re socially involved, but we don’t really share. We don’t share a close friend network, but we have a lot of overlap socially. And also our social overlaps with our professional.
[00:20:19] Jess O’Reilly: So we have a lot of overlap.
[00:20:20] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree with that for sure.
[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: And my friends are friends with you.
[00:20:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I’m friends with your friends, but I don’t, I wouldn’t call them to hang out. So I feel like we definitely have independent friend groups in that respect. Or your friends. I have, I, my friend is, uh.
[00:20:34] Jess O’Reilly: Who’s your friend?
[00:20:35] Brandon Ware: I have friend. They’re going to remain anonymous.
[00:20:37] Jess O’Reilly: I’m definitely I don’t need to tell you who my friend is. I actually think that, you know, these are just four frameworks, but they’re certainly not exhaustive because I was thinking about people where I, for example, have a social network and you tap into that social network.
[00:20:51] Brandon Ware: Yes, I would agree with that. And I think I benefit more from your friend group. Like I know that your friends would support me.
[00:20:57] Jess O’Reilly: Some of them,
[00:20:58] Brandon Ware: some of them, but I do know that in all seriousness, that your friend group is a source and can be a source of support for me, whereas I don’t think that my friend group would be that same source of support for you.
[00:21:07] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I don’t know their names.
[00:21:08] Brandon Ware: Well, yeah. Cause I don’t have any friends.
[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: I was also thinking about dramatic couples who have these turbulent relationships with frequent ups and downs. And I know that I can be a little bit like that.
[00:21:17] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, I think that we all go through points, maybe short lived. I mean, in our relationship, short lived periods of time where there is drama or dramatic responses to situations.
[00:21:27] Jess O’Reilly: I’m a dramatic responder. You don’t know. Cause it’s inside of me. And I’m like, I don’t like this guy. I’m like, it’s pretty, I only feel it for a hot.
[00:21:35] Brandon Ware: And then I crack a joke and it’s like, Oh, how can you leave this?
[00:21:39] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Anyhow, thought I would share that in case you are dating, because I have been getting more questions from daters and I don’t have as much experience working with daters, but I thought this piece of research could be interesting.
[00:21:50] Brandon Ware: You work with daters all the time. You’re always providing insights and guidance and counsel.
[00:21:55] Jess O’Reilly: Yes,
[00:21:55] Brandon Ware: but downplaying your skills.
[00:21:57] Jess O’Reilly: You know what it is, the dating markets are so [00:22:00] complex and all I hear from people kind of all around the world is how difficult it is. So in Toronto, they’re like, Toronto is the worst place to date.
[00:22:06] Jess O’Reilly: In Barcelona, they’re like, Barcelona is the worst place to date. And I hear about that in New York City. New York City is the worst place to date. LA is the worst place to date. Everybody’s flaky.
[00:22:15] Brandon Ware: Has anyone ever commented on how great it is to date in a certain city or a certain area? Because I can’t think of it.
[00:22:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I definitely hear from North Americans who like dating in Europe. They do. Like, for example, I hear from Americans who go over to Germany and they like dating because people are straightforward.
[00:22:30] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I was going to say that about, I heard, I’ve heard that about Irish, the Irish and the British,
[00:22:34] Jess O’Reilly: the Brits.
[00:22:35] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Maybe it’s more just at a, at the club. I’ve heard from people who went to the club and. I think the club, just the one,
[00:22:43] Jess O’Reilly: the one club,
[00:22:43] Brandon Ware: the one night club, but where, and I think it’s because women are more honest and transparent about what it is they want.
[00:22:51] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, you mean women are more likely to initiate contact?
[00:22:54] Brandon Ware: Yes.
[00:22:55] Jess O’Reilly: Whereas in Toronto, nobody,
[00:22:56] Brandon Ware: nobody does anything. Yeah, it’s like, Hey, let’s play the guessing game.
[00:23:00] Jess O’Reilly: And then they’re like, you’re stuck up. Okay. So when I say I don’t, I, I tend to work more with couples. Let’s be honest. Like I tend to work more with couples, but when I do come across research that I think is interesting to daters, I like to kind of dive into it.
[00:23:12] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of these things can apply regardless of where you are in the relationship.
[00:23:15] Brandon Ware: Absolutely.
[00:23:16] Jess O’Reilly: So we’ll leave it at that. This was a little bit of a quickie and there’s a couple of reasons for that. Or maybe it’s not a quickie. I have no concept of how long things last for. Brandon can tell me.
[00:23:25] Brandon Ware: This is great. It’s wonderful. Yes. Babe,
[00:23:27] Jess O’Reilly: Brandon can tell me something lasted 40 minutes. And I’m like, okay, but why is Brooklyn nine, nine still on? It’s a 24 minute program,
[00:23:34] Brandon Ware: long episode, long episode,
[00:23:36] Jess O’Reilly: extended version. So we spoke about burnout recently. And on that note, we have had many private conversations without the mics.
[00:23:44] Jess O’Reilly: And we’re going to take a little break from the podcast.
[00:23:46] Brandon Ware: Yeah, we are going to take a break.
[00:23:47] Jess O’Reilly: Take a little break.
[00:23:48] Brandon Ware: But you know what, for people who are listening and going back through the archives, I, I’ve give us a rating, give us a, give us a rating and if you like what you like, if you like what you’re, yeah, really, but if you like what you’re listening [00:24:00] to, give us a rating.
[00:24:00] Brandon Ware: We would appreciate it. I would appreciate it.
[00:24:02] Jess O’Reilly: Especially on Spotify.
[00:24:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, for sure.
[00:24:05] Jess O’Reilly: That’d be great. And then we’ll be back with more. I think in the new year, but right now I just need to breathe a little. So we’ll send it off with that. Wishing everyone a happy upcoming holiday break. If you’re taking one, hoping that you do get some rest and some peace and some love and the word that’s on my mind is ease.
[00:24:24] Brandon Ware: I hope so.
[00:24:24] Jess O’Reilly: I feel pretty emotional right now. Not just about taking the break, but about the idea of easing into hopefully a little bit of quiet over the holidays until. The family arrives, so no quiet. And I will again, shout out Adam and Eve code DrJess50. If you are shopping for fun stuff over the holidays for yourself, for a partner, for a friend,
[00:24:45] Brandon Ware: for anyone,
[00:24:45] Jess O’Reilly: adamandeve. com. Thanks folks. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you have a lovely holiday and all the best for the upcoming year.
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Sex, Gender & Intimacy: People Collide with Isle McElroy
23 nov 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Isle McElroy joins Jess and Brandon to talk about intimacy, vulnerability and sex — on paper and in the flesh. An award-winning non-binary author based in New York, McElroy’s latest novel People CollideÂ is a gender-bending, body-switching story exploring marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership. Isle shares personal insights on what makes for a good sex scene, how inadequacy plays out in relationships and what they’ve learned from rethinking sex and pleasure.
To learn more about Isle McElroy, check out their social media – Instagram and Twitter
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 343
Sex, Gender & Intimacy: People Collide with Isle McElroy
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Hey, hey, today we’re talking about sex, gender, and intimacy with Isle McElroy, an award winning non binary author based in New York, whose latest novel, People Collide, is a gender bending, body switching story about marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership.
[00:00:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and this story isn’t your traditional kind of body swap, you know, thinking Freaky Fridays. So the story is… Eli, when Eli, the main character, leaves the cramped Bulgarian apartment, he shares with his wife, Elizabeth, who’s more organized, more successful than he is. He discovers that he now inhabits her body.
[00:00:48] Jess O’Reilly: So not only have he and his wife traded bodies, but Elizabeth living as Eli, has disappeared without a trace, and what follows is Eli’s search across Europe, to America, to find his missing wife, and an exploration of gender and embodied experience. As Eli comes closer to finding Elizabeth while learning to exist in her body, he begins to wonder what effect this metamorphosis will have on their relationship, and how long he can maintain the illusion of of living as someone he isn’t.
[00:01:17] Jess O’Reilly: And the questions, you know, are will their new marriage wither completely in each other’s bodies, or is this transformation the very thing Eli and Elizabeth need for their marriage? to thrive. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I’ve been reading the book. I’m almost done. I thought I’d be done by today, but I have a lot of questions about some of the messaging and themes, and I think it’s going to be a great conversation.
[00:01:37] Jess O’Reilly: Now, before we welcome our guest, I’ll want to announce a partnership with fellow podcasters Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women. The podcast, season two, is out now and it’s hosted by Nana Darkwa Sakiyama and Malaika Grant. The podcast explores African women’s experiences of sex, sexuality, [00:02:00] and pleasure and they have a host of fabulous guests in their bedroom this season.
[00:02:05] Jess O’Reilly: They have top sexpert Ohlone from the UK, fabulous comedienne Yvonne Orji. Feminist powerhouse, Mona Altahawe, and many, many more. And they’re asking all their guests, what’s your sexy secret? What’s your secret, babe?
[00:02:19] Brandon Ware: I can’t tell you. It’s a secret. That’s why it’s a secret.
[00:02:21] Jess O’Reilly: So predictable. Okay. That and so much more in the new season of the Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women podcast out now.
[00:02:30] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:02:33] Jess O’Reilly: Joining us now is Al McElroy. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:37] Isle McElroy: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.
[00:02:39] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re enjoying reading through your work. Not only People Collide, but some of your previous work, Short Stories. I understand this is your second book.
[00:02:47] Jess O’Reilly: I was thinking about the pressure of an author in terms of your second book because everybody’s comparing it to your first, expecting more of the same. Is that something that, you know, you kind of face as an author or do you have to just leave it behind and do what works for you?
[00:03:01] Isle McElroy: Yeah, I think I have not, there’s definitely been a lot of comparison to the first book.
[00:03:07] Isle McElroy: I feel in a very strange place because my first book was published under my dead name. So it both feels as if this is my second book and my first book that is really mine. I think what’s been really exciting about the two books is that they do feel like they’re in conversation with each other. The first book, The Atmospherians, was about two best friends who start a cult to reform problematic men, uh, like a satire about gender.
[00:03:30] Isle McElroy: And this book is a more intimate about a married couple who swap bodies. And I do feel like it seems like a really amazing evolution. for me in how I’ve been thinking about gender, how I’ve been thinking about relationship. First book is a lot about friendship. This second book is a lot about marriage.
[00:03:46] Isle McElroy: So for me, I’ve been really always interested in tight knit, intimate relationship. And this book was an opportunity to be more romantic about it. So I haven’t felt most of the comparison has been with myself. Um, less so with [00:04:00] other people putting that on me, thankfully.
[00:04:01] Jess O’Reilly: Good for you. You know, um, you talk about intimacy and I definitely want to speak about that as well as sexuality and gender and fluidity.
[00:04:08] Jess O’Reilly: But People Collided explores all these relationship themes, right, and, and to me beautiful and vulnerable and sometimes kind of uncomfortable. Framing for the reader and from the onset, we see a character who seemingly kind of is accepting of feeling inadequate. And that theme jumps out to me. So the character Eli seems kind of resigned to be unworthy of Elizabeth and she’s more successful and motivated and responsible and brave.
[00:04:33] Jess O’Reilly: And he describes her kind of as this full human, whereas he’s just an appendage, you know, her name literally encompasses his. So this hierarchical dynamic shows up in other relationships in the story as well. And. In the context of a body swap story and one that crosses gender and explore sexuality, because anything I’ve consumed prior to People Collide did not explore these themes.
[00:04:56] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious what you think we, what you want us to learn or consider or feel. About the experience of feeling inadequate in relationships with yourself or with others.
[00:05:05] Isle McElroy: Oh, that’s such a good question. Um, I think it’s so. What’s interesting about Eli for me is that inadequacy is a form of safety for him, that it is a way that he doesn’t need to actually engage with the things that he is talented at.
[00:05:23] Isle McElroy: He doesn’t need to engage with what he actually does well. In this marriage, the fact that he is there, the fact that he has sort of put his life on hold and that he is there as a support system is going into that school to do some things. He is showing up and he is very dismissive of his actions, which I think is a way for him to feel comfortable in control.
[00:05:45] Isle McElroy: I think we are even being inadequate is a really. fascinating control strategy in so far as it allows you to kind of seed responsibility. And that can be a really interesting way for, for this character, I think [00:06:00] has to, I mean, his opening sentences, I’m not a responsible man. So he has to find responsibility over the course of this novel, responsibility for his own life, responsibility for his actions, and that he is so willing to claim inadequacy is kind of a bluff.
[00:06:16] Isle McElroy: It’s something that is keeping him, he doesn’t want to claim that responsibility because he’s scared of it. He’s scared of what it would mean to actually run and like dive into his life in the way that probably Elizabeth and other people think that he can but he doesn’t really want to confront. So I do think it’s a way for him to Avoid responsibility in a really interesting way
[00:06:36] Brandon Ware: is a common theme.
[00:06:37] Brandon Ware: Do you feel like you see this a lot
[00:06:40] Brandon Ware: in your life? And like, I mean, I’m just thinking about this, how it pertains to me and I’m like, yeah, you’re right. Absolving yourself of responsibility, shirking responsibility, even when it comes to simple things in a relationship where it’s like, what do you want to have for dinner today?
[00:06:52] Brandon Ware: I’m like, yeah, I’m easy. Like, I don’t.
[00:06:54] Brandon Ware: And it’s like, am I really easy? Or is it that I just don’t want to take responsibility for making that decision?
[00:06:58] Isle McElroy: I mean, decisions are hard, like, it’s, you know, there’s so many decisions throughout a life. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:07:05] Brandon Ware: No, and I was just thinking, like, you’re already
[00:07:07] Brandon Ware: cutting me slack.
[00:07:08] Brandon Ware: Don’t.
[00:07:09] Isle McElroy: Okay, we’re deciding right now what you’re eating for dinner.
[00:07:14] Jess O’Reilly: Dumplings. It’s white rice and dumplings.
[00:07:19] Isle McElroy: No, but I, I get in those moments all the time, right? Where I’m like, I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care. And then I realized. Oh, wait, I did care. I just, and then suddenly I become a little like needs monster where, um, and people are like, I thought you didn’t care about anything.
[00:07:32] Isle McElroy: And it’s like, no, I cared about everything. I was just trying to be chill and cool and to like, not have any responsibility because I think it can feel. Easy and is a nice way to not like take control of your own life,
[00:07:44] Brandon Ware: but also kudos to you for being able to take responsibility. I’m saying, you know what, I do have needs because I think a lot of times for me, it might manifest itself in something later on where I’ll say, yeah, no, I’m easy, no problem.
[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: And then I’m eating whatever I’m eating and I don’t think about it. I’m irritated. I mean, I don’t really think I am, but let’s [00:08:00] just say I am irritated. Then I get into an argument later on because I didn’t express my needs. And that’s all I had to do was just tell you what I wanted.
[00:08:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s such a common dynamic that we see and I feel like you’ve already kind of shared one strategy or solution, which is to recognize when you are feeling inadequate, what do I bring to the right to refocus?
[00:08:18] Jess O’Reilly: Because, and that’s what you allow with this character for him to also explore, okay, there are to show that there are these things that. you contribute to the relationship. I mean, the fact that he moved across the world to Bulgaria for this person is a huge source of love and support and, and showing up in the relationship.
[00:08:36] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that, you know, when I think about breaking dynamics of hierarchy or overcoming feelings of inadequacy, Eli’s story does offer some imperfect illustration of first steps. So, you know, here, we’re always trying to think about, so how do people take these lessons and maybe Apply it in their own lives and, um, yeah, the piece around inadequacy and hierarchy.
[00:08:55] Jess O’Reilly: And of course we can pull out the kind of parent child dynamics there and that shirking of responsibility. And it’s easy to say somebody’s better at it than me to avoid having to engage. And we see that across gender lines all the time, like especially, Oh, but she’s so good at that. So she might as well do it.
[00:09:13] Isle McElroy: No, I think about that too. Like. In that sometimes we just need to trust that someone can do it and someone needs to, like, tell us that, like, they believe that we can do it as well. Right? Like, that is something, like, in, I think I’m in a partnership right now where, like, that has been something that we returned to a lot.
[00:09:30] Isle McElroy: Right? Like, actually being like, okay, Okay. I trust that you can do this. And if you don’t do it, then like, it’s sort of on you. It’s not like that the other person should take over. And I think there can be often this real impulse to be like, I’m just going to do it for this person and do it for this person, which can like slowly make someone feel both inadequate and like, they are just kind of coasting, right.
[00:09:53] Isle McElroy: And it becomes this sort of feedback loop. But I think just having so much trust that a person can do something is like one of the [00:10:00] greatest forms of like, Confidence and love that someone can show right or like I’m going to show you how to do this thing and I hope that you will be able to retain this information and do it because you care about me right which requires so much.
[00:10:11] Isle McElroy: I don’t know vulnerability and trust.
[00:10:13] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and I want to talk about vulnerability and you know the theme of intimacy in this novel and it you know if we think about intimacy as Something that comes from knowing one another, right? We think of ourselves as intimate and sexual and romantic partners. We use intimacy as a very inaccurate euphemism for sex even, but people collide to me frames intimacy from other angles, like the body swap.
[00:10:37] Jess O’Reilly: Right, which it means more familiarity, more understanding, new perspectives, you know, physical, social, practical, relational, right? The other way, the way people relate to you in a different body. And I’m curious about this desire or curiosity to know someone fully and how you see the limits of intimacy in terms of embodiment of another, right?
[00:10:59] Jess O’Reilly: Are we getting closer when we are embodied in that space or does that? Really knowing, does it leave nothing left? I don’t know if I’m framing the question in a clear way, but really what is intimacy and knowing and knowing another and knowing your body and embodiment, how do those things tie together?
[00:11:16] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Like I was trying to formulate an answer, like as you were asking the question and I feel like my mind is sort of like, I’m imagining like trying to walk on lily pads, right? Like as soon as I think I’m in one direction, I fall in another one, but I, so intimacy, like there are a lot of things there, so.
[00:11:33] Isle McElroy: The desire to fully know another person, I think, is real. Especially when we like, love someone, we’re like, Oh, like, I truly want to know all of them. I want to know everything about them. But I’m also sort of like, No, you don’t. Or like, if you do, then that wouldn’t be fair to them. I think that, like, one of the best things about another person is discovering more and more of the parts of them that you don’t know.
[00:11:54] Isle McElroy: And I think What this book does and what I was trying to explore is the kind of paradox of [00:12:00] infancy. As close as you get to another person, there should still be a lot of space for them to come to you. And that is one of the things that I think was really powerful about this book. The moment when Eli is reflecting, he’s in Elizabeth’s body and he’s like, I miss Elizabeth’s touch, but he literally has her hands.
[00:12:15] Isle McElroy: Right there and can control them. And for me, what I was thinking about is like, how is intimacy always a choice? There have been times when I want to be like, with like other partners, right? Like just say a thing to me, right? Like talk to me. But unless that person wants to actually make that choice, then it’s not actually intimacy.
[00:12:31] Isle McElroy: Like you can’t bully someone into intimacy as much as. It might seem like enough conversation would be able to get there. Someone eventually has to decide they’re ready to open up to you and say those things to you. And that is something that was really important in this book between Eli and Elizabeth.
[00:12:45] Isle McElroy: And what Eli has to reckon with is that embodiment doesn’t actually mean intimacy, right? Like that kind of like full closeness doesn’t mean intimacy because intimacy for me is about a constant choice to continue to share yourself with another person. It’s not about like cuddling with a person or being next to a person, it’s about what you say while you’re doing it.
[00:13:05] Isle McElroy: Um, like if you’re willing to bring up the thing that’s been on your mind rather than simply having like physical touch. And that I think was one of the most exciting things to explore for me in this book is just how, when do we decide to allow ourselves to become closer to another person and how is that decision so special and how that is like where intimacy really begins for me.
[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And it can’t really be manufactured. We see a lot of that now in, in self help and in like kind of the pop. Psychology of organizational psych, you know, how do you manufacture closeness in the workplace? How do you quickly in 3 questions or on TikTok see if you actually have intimacy in your relationship?
[00:13:45] Jess O’Reilly: Whereas You’ve created a scenario, a story where people are literally in one another’s bodies, and it doesn’t necessarily amount to intimacy. So I think that’s really, really interesting. And I also, I also think it speaks to the fact that you don’t need to know everything about your partner. And [00:14:00] I know there are people who disagree with me, other therapists who disagree with me, but I mean, we know that there’s excitement.
[00:14:06] Jess O’Reilly: In the end, no, but I don’t know if we realize how much value there is, how much intimacy there is in giving people space as well. I’ll hear from couples who say things like, Oh, there shouldn’t be any secrets in a relationship. I would hate to have to tell Brandon everything. I mean, we know each other very well.
[00:14:22] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve been together 20 something years. We talk a lot, maybe too much sometimes. But. I don’t want to know everything. I want to know that in 10 years, there’s some story he hasn’t told me when I think about that baseball story from Elizabeth and how he remarks on the fact that he, she never brought this up.
[00:14:40] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And that when they were earlier in the relationship, she would lie there and want to tell him everything about her past, but that one didn’t come up. And I liked the idea of saving some things either just for yourself or for other people in your life. or for later on in the relationship when it feels genuine to you.
[00:14:59] Isle McElroy: Absolutely. And I think so much of sharing is about like reaction. Like you’re in a moment where I feel like my, the way my memory works is I can’t bring things up like all the time. Someone will say something that reminds me of say like the baseball story or whatever. And then I go into that and I’m reminded of something that happened in childhood, but it’s hard for if someone.
[00:15:20] Isle McElroy: It feels a little too icebreaker sometimes if someone is like, tell me about like a childhood moment and I was like, I don’t know, but if we’re like walking and I see a tree that reminds me of like a tree that I like ran my bike into when I was eight, then I’ll be able to tell that story. But I didn’t even know that story existed until I was in that moment with that other person.
[00:15:39] Isle McElroy: And that To me is I think being also in a space where you’re safe enough to allow those memories to come back up and when they do come up, it can feel like you’re ready to share that with a person, right? And that you feel safe enough to allow these things to bubble up around a person, I think is again, part of intimacy where I don’t want to feel like someone is grilling me or asking me [00:16:00] questions or looking to get to like the center of me.
[00:16:02] Isle McElroy: I wanted to be like, I want to sort of share on my own time and feel safe to share. And I think that’s sort of what we all want. And I think for this book, especially I’ve been thinking like, I think it is It would be terrifying if someone knew everything about me, because I don’t know everything about me.
[00:16:19] Isle McElroy: So, that belief, and I think that there is a kind of, like, that to me seems like a real kind of insidious control, right? Like, oh, I can know everything about you. It’s like, no, get in line. Like, I’m first. I want to know this first. And if you think that, you know, there could be gentle, like, oh, you’re not treating yourself kindly, stuff like that.
[00:16:38] Isle McElroy: But I do think that… What I’ve heard, I think a lot of relationship stuff, like the, you know, podcasts and, um, Instagram therapists I’ve seen about like knowing a partner so well, like sometimes that can be so scary because I don’t want to be fully known by people. I like to remain a mystery to myself so that I can feel interesting to myself as well.
[00:16:58] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s such a challenge, I think, to strike that balance between yes, you want to formally invest in the relationship so that there’s space for intimacy and vulnerability and honest sharing, but also you don’t want it to be forced. So you’re making me think about my work. And when I go and work with couples and I’m giving them these exercises to do, and it’s a reminder that not everybody’s ready for them.
[00:17:18] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t mean that in a hierarchical way, just maybe it’s not the right time, but these exercises or these approaches or these conversations are there when it’s time to access them. Right. So you can have those conversations. Now, when I, I think about a body swap. So you say your inspiration for this book was thinking about your own gender more than it was thinking about the tradition of like movies and, you know, Freaky Friday.
[00:17:40] Jess O’Reilly: And you say it’s something you’ve been thinking about your entire life and the weight of needing to consider changing bodies in a culture that really does everything in its power to disallow it is obviously heavy and a burden. You shouldn’t have to carry. So I am curious, you’re writing about, you’re writing from this non binary perspective, what is it you’d like cis people to know, um, what to take away [00:18:00] so that we can better support non binary people as well?
[00:18:03] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think. Really, the biggest thing is just to trust other people’s experience. Like that is always one of the more surprising things is if I say something about myself and people are like, that’s not true. It’s like, this comes back, I think, to the question of intimacy and self knowledge versus how other people know it.
[00:18:23] Isle McElroy: And I think just allowing people the dignity to understand. Themselves, what they’ve been thinking about, how they want to identify, and just trusting that people know themselves better than you might know them. So, my relationship to cis people, like, you know, when someone wants to change their name. Trust that they know what they’re doing, right?
[00:18:44] Isle McElroy: When someone wants an appropriate pronoun, just use it. Like, I’m sorry if it’s a little hard, adjust and just try your best. There’s also like, try your best and show care. I do think that’s something that I’ve gotten good at is just understanding when people are trying. And I think when people put in a genuine effort, that’s really wonderful, but really, it’s just.
[00:19:06] Isle McElroy: Be patient and open and just listen to how non binary people, how trans people, how we talk about ourselves and just sort of follow that lead instead of trying to take the reins over yourselves.
[00:19:21] Jess O’Reilly: You’re making me think about… Who should be telling these stories and writing these stories and how people are represented in stories.
[00:19:29] Jess O’Reilly: I think about like the fetishization by race. And when I read things that fetishize my race, I, it doesn’t matter how beautiful the book was, how the story is woven, how talented the author is. The moment I see something that fetishizing based on race. And for me, like for Asian women immediately, I just, it hits hard.
[00:19:48] Jess O’Reilly: And so I’m curious, there aren’t as many stories. about trans people, about non binary people. But now we’re seeing more. And so I’m curious about the importance of non binary and trans [00:20:00] writers being centered in telling these stories. And if you maybe feel the same way around fetishization.
[00:20:05] Isle McElroy: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:06] Isle McElroy: I mean, it’s, I just did an interview with the activist Raquel Willis for New York Magazine for the Cut and her memoir, I would highly recommend it, The Risk It Takes to Bloom. And I think what’s so important about that book is how she really dives into the questions of safety as like a younger trans person, as how whether you’re going to come out at work, whether or not you’re going to identify as openly trans in public, and the sort of safety that that involves like around co workers or what type of relationship you want to be perceived in.
[00:20:39] Isle McElroy: And I think what was so great about that book is that She did such an incredible job of being a human, which is one of the things that often in the, like, a literature, like, I think trans literature explodes onto the scene and it’s easy to be like, trans people are great, they’re amazing, we only need, like, positive stories, but now…
[00:20:59] Isle McElroy: It’s, like, books like Detransition Baby by Tori Peters, Girlfriends by Emily Zhu, Nevada by Imogen Binney. Like, all these books are showing, like, what it actually feels like to be trans, the complications of it. How it’s not just all pain or all perfect people who are, you know, just shaped by a bad society.
[00:21:20] Isle McElroy: It’s just humans being humans. And that, I think, is the most important thing about trans and non binary people being able to tell our stories, is that we want to… talk about our lives as full people, not simply as background characters or as, you know, like, you know, being fetishized or just being, you know, perfect people, right?
[00:21:44] Isle McElroy: The opportunity to be human, I think is so important. And that I think is what you get when people are telling their own stories.
[00:21:49] Jess O’Reilly: That makes sense to me. Um, I want to talk about sex as well. So sexuality in people, Clyde, is it’s really framed as fluid. When I first read about the body swap, when I honestly, when I got the [00:22:00] email, I was like, Oh, this is going to be a story rooted in a binary of a man learning about women.
[00:22:03] Jess O’Reilly: They wear heels and see how hard it is to wear heels. Of course it’s far more fluid. And it’s far more beautiful and nuanced and complex with explorations of bisexuality and questions of asexuality. And I take away some messaging around, you know, fluidity, making more space for ease, which when it comes to sex, ease makes more space for pleasure.
[00:22:21] Jess O’Reilly: And you’ve spoken about how learning to be okay with your body during sex as a non binary person has involved having to reimagine and rethink how you find pleasure in sex. And I’m curious if you’d be willing to share a little bit more about your experience. And perhaps how it relates to Eli, the characters in the book.
[00:22:38] Isle McElroy: Yeah. So in my own personal experience, I think I needed to just really be a lot more in touch with my body, like as like sexually and just understanding, like, what do I actually like versus what do I think I should like? And that has been a huge challenge over the last couple of years since I came out just because I’m allowing myself to slow down.
[00:23:01] Isle McElroy: I’m allowing myself to feel pleasure that I want to feel versus Like, accepting a preconceived notion of that, of what I think pleasure should be, what I think sex should be, and that I think is especially important, um, having mostly been assumed male for most of my life, and now that I do identify as non binary, I feel like I’ve been able to just rethink what pleasure means, rethink what pleasure means with other partners, rethink like what it means to actually ask for what I want and to like slow down and to have conversations while having sex, and to really rethink what parts of my body I want to use versus what I previously thought that I wanted to use.
[00:23:40] Isle McElroy: And that I think has been one of the biggest changes and most exciting things for me. For Eli, In the book, I think what he begins to discover is how fluid his own sexuality is and that it’s not something that he was willing to embrace previously. It’s something, I’ve been thinking a lot about how so much of shame [00:24:00] is just tied to our own physical selves.
[00:24:01] Isle McElroy: And when Eli is not attached to his own body any longer, a body that he very diligently works out and like, shapes, he no longer has a Like physical shame, and that gives him a great deal of freedom in the sex scene that happens in the book, both of these characters I think are able to actually engage with their desires because they don’t feel shame in the same way.
[00:24:24] Isle McElroy: I think sexual shame, like the fear of being rejected is so much about someone doesn’t like my body. But if you’re not. Even in your own body, these characters are just so attached to their desire, as Eli puts it one way, like, desire cleansed of inhibitions. Because he doesn’t feel attached to the fear of rejection in the same way that he previously was.
[00:24:46] Isle McElroy: And getting to that space, for me, has been really difficult, but it is, like, something that I’ve been working towards in my relationships, in my, like, how I have sex with people now. Because it’s just really important to… Not think about, like, different desires as rejection, or not think about my body as something that is rejected, especially in sex, but as a sort of conversation between two people who are interested in each other, or however many people are interested in each other.
[00:25:15] Jess O’Reilly: How many you can fit in that room?
[00:25:16] Isle McElroy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:25:18] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Physically and emotionally, how many people can we handle right now? Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’m curious if you can share an experience or an insight for people who do want to take that approach, who want to not step out of their bodies, but detach from expectations around body, whether it’s related to gender, whether it’s related to age, body type, uh, you know, and, and our expectations, how do we disconnect from that so that we can actually.
[00:25:42] Jess O’Reilly: Connect in our bodies, and I’m sure you can’t distill it in a sentence, but is there something that you read or something that you thought or something that you did or an experience that took you there? Because I’m thinking about what what’s the 1st step people can take?
[00:25:56] Isle McElroy: Oh, that’s such a good question.
[00:25:58] Isle McElroy: I think [00:26:00] really, for me, it’s about, a lot of it has been about action over, like, verbs over nouns, is what I will say, and I’ve really had to rethink, like, how I talk about my body parts, right? Like, and, and how I talk about I like how I want to be touched, how I want to like touch other people. And that to me is about action versus, versus about what I want to touch.
[00:26:24] Isle McElroy: Right. Like, and, and that is, and, or like where and things like that. So I’m not sure I’m making sense, but I, I do think really slowing down and thinking about what is the action versus what are the, for me, at least I felt that thinking about. Yeah, just the activities that I want to be having with other people, the connections that I want to be having with other people versus, say, the, just the naming of acts or the naming of body parts.
[00:26:57] Isle McElroy: For me, it’s always, I’ve found so much comfort and so much freedom in just sort of meandering around naming things and just like asking permission over and over again about touch, right? And, and really knowing. Really slowing down into permission has been really helpful as well.
[00:27:16] Jess O’Reilly: And I asked her, and you don’t have to answer.
[00:27:18] Jess O’Reilly: We can, you know, if it’s not a fit, I’m curious if it’s about how you feel in your body versus how the body’s responding. I’m just trying to get a little bit more clarification. Like what might it look like to tune into action versus. It’s just a body part.
[00:27:30] Isle McElroy: I think a lot of it is trust that I know what feels good.
[00:27:34] Isle McElroy: And I say this knowing that it’s taken me like four years of working really hard to get to this point where I can even begin to trust that a certain action feels good. And so it is really, I think it goes back to expectations versus the reality of the moment. I feel like I’m being very new age y right now.
[00:27:58] Isle McElroy: Like, [00:28:00] when I allow myself to really trust someone and to just feel in my body that something feels okay to me. And that means, often, like, patience, right? Like, someone asking, can they do something? And I can sit for a second and be like, yes, right? Like, that, to me, is a constant reminder. Like, I’m okay with this.
[00:28:20] Isle McElroy: I am alright with this. And that really slow, like, Entering toward everything being okay feels really, really wonderful. Because I know that I am part of this, I am engaged in this, I am deciding in all of this, and I’m like, and all of this feels pleasurable and good. And that, I think, can ignite something in my body.
[00:28:41] Isle McElroy: Or, I know that if I say yes and feel in my body? Actually, no, maybe that was a no. Then I can hopefully have enough trust with that person to be like, actually, no, let’s not do that. Right. And getting, allowing myself to, like, this has been my, like, truly, like, all of my therapy work over, like, the last four years is like, what does my body actually feel when I respond to something?
[00:29:00] Isle McElroy: And what do I actually feel like? in my chest if I say I would love to do that and then I feel like a lurch in my stomach I’m like oh no like actually I don’t want to do that and hopefully I can say to someone let’s let’s step back and let’s not do that so a lot of it is about trust in myself and trust that I know what feels good and again this feels very new agey but I think a lot of it comes just becoming really really in tune with your body and that’s taken a lot of work and a lot of like real effort feel my own feelings which I feel like I didn’t do for the first, like, 30 years of my life.
[00:29:32] Isle McElroy: So now I’m really trying to catch up.
[00:29:35] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s a lot there, but I’m taking a lot out of it, because I think so many of us go through sex, go through our entire sex lives, doing what we’re supposed to do. Maybe we know we like to get off. But you asked two questions about, you know, how does this feel in my body?
[00:29:49] Jess O’Reilly: How will I respond if I say yes? How will a partner respond if I say no? I don’t think most people slow down because everything’s rushed and everything’s a bit shorthanded, shorthand, not [00:30:00] shorthanded. Everything we’re doing as quickly as we can and there’s kind of like these checklists and bucket lists, but I think there’s a lot more value in slowing down and saying, what does this feel like in my body?
[00:30:08] Jess O’Reilly: And we do this all the time in In all types of therapy, not related to sex. If something is stressing you out, you know, a question we ask is, you know, how does that show up in your body? And I don’t think that our culture, our world is designed for us to take that time. And when we take that time outside of the bedroom to tune into our body, we’re more likely to do the same inside of the bedroom.
[00:30:28] Jess O’Reilly: And of course, not all of us, everybody has a different amount of time or I think privilege access. To stop and say, how do I feel in my body? Because if we go back to some of the themes that have come up in this conversation and come up in the novel around fear and around safety, that hierarchy of needs, obviously you have to take care of being safe.
[00:30:44] Jess O’Reilly: Whether it be any sort of self actualization at the top or sexual self actualization. So I’m hearing what you’re saying. And I appreciate it. I appreciate those questions also for people to just stop and think, how does this feel in my body? Whether you’re at. Like early stages of dating, I often tell people like, stop thinking about, you know, are they the right fit?
[00:31:03] Jess O’Reilly: Do they, you know, do we align, do our values align? Just think about how you feel in your body in that moment. That’s a good place to start all the way through to the bedroom and long term relationship. If we can slow down and tune into sensations. Instead of thinking about like, can the kids hear me? Do I have to be up in the morning?
[00:31:18] Jess O’Reilly: Do they like this? What do I look like? Am I taking too long? I’m coming too fast. All the questions that we ask ourselves, you’re bringing it back to the body, which brings us back really to the theme of this novel as well. So I’m, I’m seeing it all come full circle. I’m really thankful for that insight.
[00:31:32] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I think there’s a valuable takeaway for all of us there. Before I let you go, I do want to ask about, so you mentioned the sex scene, which of course I recall intensely from the book. You’ve also written about the art of the sex scene, and I’m curious, as a writer, what makes a good sex scene on paper, and is it different than what makes a good sex scene, for example, on stage or in real life?
[00:31:55] Isle McElroy: So, I do think what makes a good sex scene on paper [00:32:00] is First off, attention to detail. That is, and really just knowing where things go, I think is really important. And like, just allowing the reader to see. I think a lot of people move too quickly, or they use euphemisms, and that to me seems like a really bad sex scene.
[00:32:15] Isle McElroy: Also, I think that Especially in writing, sex is an opportunity to reveal character. So when sex is a moment to show the souls of two characters or to show how they interact, how they talk to each other, that is really important. And that’s what I, some books that I, I think Garth Greenwell writes about sex really well.
[00:32:33] Isle McElroy: Raven Leilani is an excellent sex writer and in their work, Brian Washington does great sex in his books and all of their work. You can tell that these people have a connection with each other that goes beyond sex. And in sex writing, that, I think, is what’s really important, is seeing that it’s not just this.
[00:32:50] Isle McElroy: Even if it is just like a one night stand fling, I want to know how these two, like, souls are connecting on this, in this moment. If it’s a long term relationship, I want to know how this event is part of a longer, or is a moment in their longer journey with each other. And I think it’s about, like, The best sex scenes are ones that bring in all of the curiosity and excitement and conflict from outside of the sex scene.
[00:33:16] Isle McElroy: Uh, ones that build entire worlds.
[00:33:18] Jess O’Reilly: Beautiful. I’m curious too if writing about sex changes the way you see sex in real life. Because I’m not a sex writer. I write about sex from a very boring perspective, but to weave a story is a different talent altogether.
[00:33:32] Isle McElroy: I… I think what it has taught me is just really, again, it’s, it takes a lot longer to write a sex scene than it does to have sex.
[00:33:43] Isle McElroy: So, I will say that When it comes to slowing down, and when it comes to asking questions, that is what writing a scene has helped me do because I need to think about, like, what does desire look like, what, what do people say to each other, what actually [00:34:00] is hot, what are the things that I’m fantasizing about, and writing a sex scene, or what are other people fantasizing about, and creating those scenes on the page, I think Allows me to fantasize when I’m with someone as well, right, like to allow myself to, like, if I’m with someone physically and I’m fantasizing about something that I want to continue doing with them, I might be able to, like, bring it up because I’m both really in the moment and being in that moment might allow me to sort of think of something else that I want to do, and that Kind of that to me seems like writing spontaneity and writing is so important to me So you you react to what is happening, right?
[00:34:39] Isle McElroy: So in writing a sex scene I am reacting to what the characters are doing when I’m with another person I’m reacting to what feels good in that moment and sex with someone might be completely different with the same person over a couple times doing it because we are reacting differently because we are different people on a different day and being really attuned to Reacting to your needs in the moment, I think, is important both for writing and for, like, sex in real life.
[00:35:08] Brandon Ware: I’m picturing, in the midst of having sex, being like, as a writer, Oh, my gosh, I got to stop. That was such a good line. I just thought of or something like that, you know, like that’s my next scene
[00:35:18] Isle McElroy: for above above the bed so I can always get things down right away.
[00:35:23] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, I think most people who work in this field.
[00:35:25] Jess O’Reilly: In the beginning when we were studying. It would happen because it was so new to us now. Like, you know, I’ve been working in this field for so long. I can definitely separate the two, but I do remember that when I first started studying, something would happen during sex. And I would think about how it related to what I was studying.
[00:35:40] Jess O’Reilly: That’s right. I wasn’t really taking notes on what you were doing, but I, I, what I’m hearing too, is there must be real value for lovers, for learning about yourself, um, seeing sex from different perspectives and writing like as a, not a therapeutic tool, but just as a personal tool. And I, it’s something I would have.
[00:35:57] Jess O’Reilly: For me, I don’t have that side of the brain. Oh, it doesn’t come [00:36:00] naturally to me. We all have that side and we can tap into it, but not something I would have considered, but something I’m definitely thinking about now. And I’m sure other folks can consider reading your work on the art of a sex scene. And I’ll put that in the, in the show notes as well.
[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: And highly encourage everyone to check out People Collide as well. Really a great read. And I’m holding on for the end because of course, I already have an idea that there’s a bit of an ending because I’ve read reviews of the work, but you are receiving great accolades. And I can see why absolutely so congrats and thank you so much for sharing, sharing your time and your insights and your personal insights with us today.
[00:36:35] Jess O’Reilly: Much appreciated.
[00:36:36] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure to be here.
[00:36:39] Jess O’Reilly: You know, it’s not often we do interviews with fiction authors, but I was really interesting because I was really enthralled with this novel. I am really enthralled with it. And I took a lot away from this conversation, you know, messaging around intimacy and that there’s as much intimacy and not knowing as knowing.
[00:36:57] Jess O’Reilly: In some cases, and I think there’s something to sit there with, something to sit with there for me and even for some of the programming that I do, it definitely made me question some of the ways I approach intimacy and intimacy building and how there can be multiple approaches. I also think about, you know, embodiment and how it is rooted in trust and slowing down and reconditioning ourselves to move away from expectations.
[00:37:20] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a big one.
[00:37:21] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, for me, that, that was, that really resonated, the idea of, forget what society tells you you should and shouldn’t like. What do you like? And listen to yourself. Or listen to myself.
[00:37:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and tuning into your body. I feel like I’ve been tuned out lately. Not specifically around sex, but it’s absolutely seeping into sex.
[00:37:39] Jess O’Reilly: And I’ll leave it at that. And also, I was thinking about shedding expectations. Mm hmm. About our bodies. Like, we have so many expectations about what it’s supposed to be, how it’s supposed to react, how it’s supposed to look, what we’re supposed to feel, what we’re supposed to enjoy. And when we think about expectations, so many of them are the ones that uphold shame.
[00:37:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I, I really am sitting with that as [00:38:00] well. And then of course, the really important messaging around trusting others when it comes to their experience.
[00:38:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I agree with all points.
[00:38:07] Jess O’Reilly: All right, we’re gonna leave it at that. Thanks so much for listening, folks. And of course, you can check out People Collide wherever books are sold.
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Managing Burnout In Relationships: Conservation of Resources Theory
17 nov 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
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TL;DR: The Conservation of Resources Theory and Managing Burnout in Relationships
Burnout doesn’t just affect work, it depletes emotional and relational resources, impacting intimacy, desire, and connection.
Conservation of Resources (COR) Theory helps reframe burnout as a resource imbalance, not a personal or relational failure.
Reclaim energy by setting boundaries, prioritizing solo joy, and rebalancing resource exchange with your partner.
Tools like the We-Vibe Melt or Touch can support solo and partnered pleasure as part of healing.
Reflect weekly: What’s draining you? What’s restoring you? What can you shift to show up more fully and without burnout?
Burnout & Relationships: A Tangled Web We Can’t Ignore
Burnout isn’t reserved for the boardroom — it shows up in our bedrooms, dinner table conversations, text replies (or lack thereof), and yes, even in the quiet pauses between eye contact. In this episode of the Sex With Dr. Jess Podcast, we dive into the signs of burnout, how they manifest in our relationships, and how the Conservation of Resources (COR) Theory offers a practical framework to better understand and manage this ever-growing emotional epidemic.
From that sense of feeling “frozen” to the internal tug-of-war between showing up for your partner or just zoning out for self-preservation, burnout isn’t always easy to spot. And it’s even harder to talk about, especially when love and care are at stake.
What Is Burnout?
Emotional exhaustion, detachment, reduced empathy, irritability, a dip in desire (for intimacy or anything at all), these are more than just rough days. When you’re depleted for weeks, months or even years, the foundation of your relationship starts to shift.
Burnout occurs along a spectrum, and that means we’re not just talking about full collapse. The early signs (social withdrawal, communication breakdowns, loss of interest in things you used to love) all serve as red flags. It’s not that you no longer want to connect, cuddle, or care. It’s that you literally can’t.
Applying Conservation of Resources Theory to Relationships
COR theory, developed by psychologist Stevan Hobfoll (1989), is based on a beautifully simple idea: humans are wired to conserve and protect valuable resources. These include:
Object resources (e.g. money, housing, physical safety)Condition resources (e.g. status, roles, relationships)Energy resources (e.g. time, emotional bandwidth, attention)Personal resources (e.g. self-esteem, resilience)
Relationships (intimate, platonic, familial) require a constant, fluctuating investment of these resources. And when they’re running low? Conflict, resentment, disconnection and dissatisfaction thrive.
But when you’re both able to recognize burnout as a resource imbalance, instead of a personal failing or relational flaw, you can start making changes rooted in care, not blame.
Managing Burnout With Relational Intelligence1. Start With You (Yes, Even When You’re Burnt Out)
You cannot pour from an empty cup. You don’t need to be overflowing, but consider where your emotional, physical, and mental energy is being spent. If you want to show up for your partner (or children, or friends), you need to reclaim time, movement, pleasure and purpose in ways that work for you.
If an early morning run, solo trip to a bookstore, or nap on the balcony leaves you feeling whole again, take it seriously. Do you show up with the resources needed for the relationship, or are you spending them elsewhere?
Explore enhancements that recharge you, like the We-Vibe Touch or We-Vibe Melt, tools designed not just for partnered play, but for solo joy and resource-building too.
2. Burnout in Relationships – Set Boundaries With What Depletes You
Your job isn’t entitled to your midnight thoughts. Your phone doesn’t have to accompany you to the bathroom. And you absolutely can (and should) say no to that third committee meeting that will rob you of emotional availability for your loved ones.
Boundaries aren’t walls, they’re resource preservation strategies.
3. Relearn Resource Exchange
Healthy relationships include ongoing, reciprocal exchange. That doesn’t mean it’s 50/50 every day, it means both partners feel safe, supported, and seen over time. Ask each other:
What fills your cup?What drains it?What does support look like today?<
Let your pleasure be part of that conversation too. Maybe you both enjoy a quiet night in with candles and the We-Vibe Chorus — a powerful way to recharge together without having to “perform.”
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4. Celebrate, Even When You’re Tired
Celebration is a form of resistance when the world wants you to keep grinding. Whether it’s finishing your to-do list, watching your Bougainvillea bloom, or finally making it through the bedtime routine without yelling, let yourself feel good about it. Bank those wins. They matter.
As Brandon reflected in the episode, “I took so much more pleasure in working when I started celebrating my small wins instead of immediately panicking about how I’d do it again.”
Try This Burnout Reflection Exercise:
Ask yourself (and maybe your partner):
What’s depleting my resources right now?What enhances them?How do I preserve the resources I have?How do I share or exchange resources with others?Where can I make small cuts to reduce depletion?Where can I increase access to joy or pleasure?What’s one thing I can shift this week to show up more fully?
Whether you’re a CEO, a parent, a lover, or all three, your resources are finite. Choosing how and where to use them isn’t selfish, it’s loving. Not just for yourself, but for your people too.
Want to Learn More?
To explore more about emotional seduction and how it connects to identity and eroticism, check out:
The Core Erotic Feeling – How you need to FEEL to get in the mood for sex
If you’re navigating burnout alongside sexual disconnection, you might also find this guide helpful:
How to Get Your Libido Back – explore and rekindle your libido
Thanks for reading and listening. We’d love for you to stay connected. Subscribe to our podcast and sign up for our newsletter for more insights, tools, and yes, joyful little wins.
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 342
Managing Burnout In Relationships: Conservation of Resource Theory
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Mr. Brandon Ware, how you feeling today?
[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: I’m good. I’m good. I’m a little bit tired. I’m good.
[00:00:19] Jess O’Reilly: A little bit worn out.
[00:00:20] Brandon Ware: Just, just a touch.
[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: This is what I’m hearing across the board.
[00:00:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I hear it from a lot of people these days.
[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: I didn’t even prep you for it. I’m like, if I ask how you’re doing, I know you’re going to say you’re a little worn out because it seems like everybody’s feeling that way. You know, I’m hearing from friends who describe their state as frozen.
[00:00:36] Brandon Ware: I haven’t heard frozen before.
[00:00:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Actually two different friends last week said that they feel frozen. Like they don’t even feel like replying in our group texts. They don’t even feel like talking about what’s going on in the world because folks are feeling exhausted and sad. And I think there’s a sense of. Hopelessness around some of the, the big issues and power and the way things are shifting and seeing how, you know, even economies are, are shifting so that it’s making it harder for people to live.
[00:01:05] Brandon Ware: I thought you were going to make reference to, so the feeling numbness, but also the inability to move, is that what you’re saying? So it’s kind of twofold.
[00:01:12] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Cause we think about fight. Or flight, freeze is another response, fawn is another response, but we’re not talking about that today. I want to talk about burnout.
[00:01:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I think most folks have heard me talk about the bulk of my work is this marriage as a business program, where I take business models and adapt them to relationships for business leaders. And that’s my favorite part of my job. It’s super fun. And it’s really interesting because it’s not like every model can just be.
[00:01:36] Jess O’Reilly: Shifted into another realm perfectly, but I think they can be adapted and no model is perfect. No theory is perfect, especially when you’re looking at, you know, for example, organizational psychology. But I was thinking that it’d be interesting to apply this to burnout today because it seems to be the theme in all the private messages I’m reading and in my friend groups right now.
[00:01:51] Jess O’Reilly: And yeah, I was thinking about applying. some theories to burnout today with a lens of an organizational psychology theory, conservation of resources, which I know you’re familiar [00:02:00] with. Yes, I am. Studying organizational psych. And I was thinking that we could talk briefly about signs of burnout, uh, the conservation of resource theory more generally, and then apply it to relationships.
[00:02:09] Jess O’Reilly: And then of course, end with some strategies and solutions.
[00:02:13] Brandon Ware: Sounds like a plan. Where do we begin?
[00:02:14] Jess O’Reilly: Well, we begin actually with our sponsor, Temptation Cruise. And I’m actually very, very excited because I just got the contract backed yesterday and I’m heading for the very first time on the Temptation Cruise.
[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: So this is the sibling cruise to the Desire Cruise and it’s an erotic, naughty, wild, fun, laid back, no pressure, very celebratory. party on the seas. We start in Miami, we head out into the Caribbean, into the Bahamas, into Cozumel, and it’s February 19th to 24th. So it’s kind of creeping up on us. And it’s open to absolutely everyone.
[00:02:49] Jess O’Reilly: So you can come on your own, you can come with three others, you can come as a couple, you can come as you are. And it’s for people of all genders, all sexual orientations. And it’s a big party on the seas and they, you know, there’s topless sections, there’s clothing optional sections, there’s a playroom and it’s my very first time hosting workshops on this ship.
[00:03:07] Jess O’Reilly: So I’m pretty excited.
[00:03:08] Brandon Ware: I think the only thing you have to do is. People are here to come and party.
[00:03:11] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. I would say it’s a, it’s more of a party, but you can really make it what you want. Of course you can get off at the, at the various cruise ports. Sorry.
[00:03:20] Brandon Ware: You know, I’m just sitting here waiting for all of these.
[00:03:22] Jess O’Reilly: Everybody with the language of like, get off and come as you are. And I think after 20 years of this, I’m. I’m so over it, the puns, the puns. Yeah. So yes, speaking of burnout, but do check out the temptation cruise. I’m going to link my link in the, in the show notes and I’ll put it in my IG as well, because if you are checking it out, I would really appreciate it.
[00:03:41] Jess O’Reilly: If you’d click on my link so they know that you heard about it here. It’s going to be a wild time. So back to burnout, you know, burnout, obviously everything occurs along a spectrum. So when we talk about burnout, you’re generally referring to emotional, mental, physical exhaustion that usually results from prolonged excessive stress, [00:04:00] overwork, combination of factors, and they can be individual, they can be social, they can be socio cultural, they can be political, economical, and, you know, it affects I want to talk about how burnout impacts relationships of all kinds, so not just intimate relationships.
[00:04:20] Jess O’Reilly: And I think a big one is that when you’re burnt out, your emotional capacity is just diminished and it can feel like you have no or very little emotional energy. And it can, what that means is it can be really challenging to be available and supportive. in relationships. And so you may, for example, for example, for example, become emotionally distant.
[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, you might find that you’re really irritable, which of course strains connections with partners, with friends. I’ve definitely noticed that when again, burnout being along a spectrum, when I feel more burned out, I don’t really want to talk to people. Like I don’t want to have individual conversations. I don’t mind big group things because it feels less intimate, but that reduced emotional availability really.
[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: Affects relationships. And of course, another piece of that is increased conflict. Right? So heighten stress levels, decrease tolerance for frustration. It makes us more prone to snapping, to arguments, to conflicts with partners, with family, with friends, with coworkers, of course. And then we might find ourselves, and this sort of goes to a reduced emotional availability, but neglecting relationships, like we might prioritize other things over relationships because the emotional energy that perhaps goes into.
[00:05:29] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe a job that people aren’t particularly passionate about or going to the gym or other things doesn’t, that don’t require as much emotional focus can feel easier. So there, it’s not just a neglect. It can be avoidance. Usually there’s a decrease in, in intimacy, right? And I think people use, you know, intimacy as euphemism for sex, but I just mean, it can be physical, it can be emotional, it can be relational, it can be even practical.
[00:05:51] Jess O’Reilly: Again, you can just feel too drained or stressed to even. Engage in things that feel affectionate or real. I know for me that I want to [00:06:00] avoid intimacy because intimacy, it feels vulnerable and I don’t always have the energy to break down. Right. I don’t really always feel like being honest when I’m burned out.
[00:06:07] Jess O’Reilly: Like I’d rather just distract myself with movement, with work, with other things that don’t feel so vulnerable.
[00:06:14] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree. I think I do the same where it’s just, it’s easier to focus in on something that I don’t have to think about. Rather than investing the emotional energy into the relationship without also recognizing that the relationship can be one of the sources that picks me up.
[00:06:28] Jess O’Reilly: Resource deposit, which we’re going to get to with the conservation of resource theory. You’ll also often see communication breakdowns, right? Again, if I’m burnt out, everything irritates me. You speak and I’m irritated. You, you know what I mean? Social withdrawal more generally, right? A lot of people will just feel burned out by being around people and a loss of interest.
[00:06:47] Jess O’Reilly: In relational activities that were generally enjoyable in the past. Right. So I may not really take the pleasure from spending time with loved ones. And this of course results in a lack of engagement and enthusiasm. And then, you know, other people pick up on it and they respond accordingly. But that loss of interest, sometimes we’ll read it as, well, it doesn’t even feel good to, I don’t know, snuggle anymore.
[00:07:08] Jess O’Reilly: It doesn’t even feel good to have sex anymore, or it doesn’t even feel good. to sit in silence with you and just enjoy each other’s company anymore and then we’ll read that as a barometer of the relationship because we’re neglecting the fact that it’s overall burnout.
[00:07:22] Brandon Ware: Hmm. Does the conservation of resource theory, I don’t think that they necessarily look at They look at burnout from that emotional exhaustion imbalance perspective.
[00:07:31] Brandon Ware: Do they talk a little bit at all about, so in this, one of the other studies that I was reading, they talked about one of the elements being depersonalization, which it sounds like what you’re referencing, but it’s specific to the workplace. So what they say is that. Um, there’s depersonalization is where you become, uh, you just don’t care.
[00:07:48] Brandon Ware: You don’t care about the relationship that you have with a colleague. You don’t care about what it is you’re doing. And I could be paraphrasing this not quite as effectively, but it’s just that lack of, um, I don’t even want to call it civility, but it’s just, um, you just don’t [00:08:00] care.
[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Ambivalence.
[00:08:01] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:08:01] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we see that in relationships. And again, I guess a lot, many of us will use our primary relationships. So intimate relationships, marriage as the barometer of our. Happiness in life. And so we’ll see, but we’ll also say if I’m unhappy in this relationship, it must be the relationship, but sometimes I’m unhappy in life.
[00:08:20] Jess O’Reilly: So similarly, I can assume that I’m burned out by the relationship or in the relationship when in fact, I’m bringing burnout to the relationship and. Always there’s some crossover because everything in life depletes resources and everything in life has the potential to enhance resources. Again, we’re going to get to the theory in just a moment, but I think a big question that’s sort of coming up for me right now as I’m talking through some of the signs of burnout and how they play out in relationships is how do you differentiate between whether or not it’s a relational issue on account of burnout?
[00:08:49] Jess O’Reilly: Or it’s a relational burnout that’s showing up in the relationship. And I, I think that we’re, we’re capable of kind of looking at our situations. And I think as I share some of the tools and get into the theory, you’ll probably able to make that determination. And again, nothing happens in a vacuum. So, you know, if.
[00:09:05] Jess O’Reilly: If a relationship feels as though it’s all about burnout right now, it’s probably playing some role, but I, again, I think people do scapegoat primary relationships in a culture that puts marriage and intimate relationships at the center of kind of everything we tell, we tell ourselves that it’s supposed to be.
[00:09:23] Jess O’Reilly: The end all be all that it’s the richest source of love and happiness and fulfillment and care. And it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. Friendships can play similar roles. Other family relationships can play similar roles and other parts of your life can also lead to fulfillment. So that loss of interest I think does align with what you’re talking about in terms of depersonalization.
[00:09:42] Jess O’Reilly: We also see resentment. Right. So resentment is something that will start to come up when we’re burned out. And if we think about burnout, and I wanted to apply it in the lens, along the lens of the conservation of resource theory, I think we have to kind of define what that is. So it’s a theory developed by Hobful.
[00:09:58] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s from the eighties [00:10:00] and it’s a stress and resource based theory that focuses on how we. Maintain, protect, acquire valuable resources to promote our own well being and cope with stressors. So it suggests that we are motivated to conserve our resources and it also categorizes resources into four types.
[00:10:22] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying this is perfect, but I just want to share some background. So they divide it into object resources, condition resources, It’s energy resources and cultural resources. So object are more material resources like financial well being and physical health. Condition resources are more personal characteristics like self efficacy, um, self esteem, social support networks, and there’s some crossover here too.
[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: Energy resources, which I’m very interested in, in the context of burnout, are really the energy that we have. That is depleted by stressors and then cultural resources are, you know, knowledge and skills and values and strategies that we’re going to talk about to help navigate challenges. So the theory is that we experience stress when there is a threat to these resources and this stress can trigger.
[00:11:12] Jess O’Reilly: I think it can be applied to understand how we manage and protect both individual and shared resources so that we have a fulfilling partnership. And so I’m kind of not reaching here, but bridging these 2 pieces together. And I think it’s helpful because conservation of research theory is a framework that looks at how we prioritize and protect our resources in response to stressors.
[00:11:40] Jess O’Reilly: And I think it applies to relationships to really explain how resource management affects our overall well being as individuals and within relationships. Does that make sense?
[00:11:50] Brandon Ware: Yeah. So when I get stressed, there’s an imbalance. I’ve got these resources that make me feel good. I want to keep them. I don’t want to give them up, but I need to use them to offset the [00:12:00] stress.
[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: So the, so the question is in the relationship, I guess, you’re saying, what are those resources and how are we keeping them or how are we adding to them to make sure that we don’t have that imbalance?
[00:12:09] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m really interested, and I haven’t done any research on this, maybe I will, around, I’m really interested in how conservation of resource applies across different cultures and the way we see community because psychology can be highly, highly individualistic or maybe look at systems, but not always at community and collectivism.
[00:12:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, definitely. I was just thinking because earlier you talked about how the relationship was where people express burnout, right? And what I was thinking at the time was, is that also because we’re not able to really express ourselves in other realms, right? Like you can’t express burnout in the office because it’s going to adversely impact you.
[00:12:45] Brandon Ware: Are you comfortable saying to your friends that you’re burnt out because are they going to want to be around you? So you end up saying that you’re burnt out to your partner. Right. And that may not necessarily be the source of where the burnout is coming. And I’m, I’m thinking of all of these things because recently within the last few months, I have felt burnt out.
[00:13:02] Brandon Ware: Like I have felt that all of these things that you’re talking about. And when I reflect back, I’m like, I don’t think the relationship is where I felt burnt out. I think it was all of the other things. It was just that. I’m around you and at one point you break, something happens, you get frustrated, you get irritated and I’m with you and that’s where the frustration comes out.
[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s a place where you can safely express how you’re feeling.
[00:13:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us have many places and many people with whom we can discuss those things. And some of us have. fewer. I definitely, I mean, a dynamic I see, and I’m sure, you know, we’ve talked about before, is that women tend to have multiple sources of support and oftentimes men don’t.
[00:13:44] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, I would agree with that wholeheartedly.
[00:13:46] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that as soon as you become aware of that. It’s your job to say, okay, do I want to put all of this emotional load on my partner? Where else can I address it? So, you know, I think what you’re describing really, really [00:14:00] makes sense. So if we think about the conservation of resource theory in terms of how it applies in relationships, I think we should start there and then we can get to the practical and the takeaway.
[00:14:08] Jess O’Reilly: So I was thinking about, so we’ve got resource investment and depletion and exchange and enhancement. And preservation. And to me, I think about how that affects stress and conflict and what our adaptive strategies look like, and then how we balance those resources. So that’s a lot of, you know, talk. So this is what I’m thinking.
[00:14:25] Jess O’Reilly: So when we think about resource investment in relationships, we invest various resources. So we invest time. Um, energy, emotional support, financial resources into the relationship. And the theory is that we’re motivated to conserve these investments to ensure the stability of the relationship. So I think it applies pretty clearly there.
[00:14:42] Jess O’Reilly: On the depletion side, relationships do require some investment. And I think that’s not something everybody agrees upon, but I think we’re getting there. More people would agree on that now. But we all experience resource depletion. Um, in other realms, from demands of work, from children, from other responsibilities.
[00:14:58] Jess O’Reilly: And conservation of resource theory highlights the importance of managing and replenishing these resources to prevent burnout and relationship dissatisfaction. And I promise we’ll get into what this actually looks like, but I think it’s important to go through the theory. And then I think about resource exchange.
[00:15:14] Jess O’Reilly: So successful relationships. involve an exchange of resources, right? As I said, we provide emotional support, companionship, assistance in various, you know, silos of life. And I think that the theory really emphasizes the importance of having some sort of balanced exchange of resources. Mm hmm. And so if there isn’t an exchange and it’s one way, obviously there’s going to be an imbalance in the relationship.
[00:15:37] Jess O’Reilly: And we can continue to talk about this, but I see this in work relationships. I see this in friendships. I think that there’s more of an understanding that a relationship between intimate partners ought to be somewhat balanced, but I don’t think we all recognize imbalances in other adult relationships.
[00:15:54] Jess O’Reilly: Even for example, parent child.
[00:15:55] Brandon Ware: Mm hmm.
[00:15:56] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Uh, we might have these dynamics where we, [00:16:00] and I’m not talking about a parent child dynamic in an intimate relationship, I mean literal caregiver, adult child, so we’re adults now. And what are our expectations of our parents? And then how do we respond when their needs shift?
[00:16:12] Jess O’Reilly: So resource exchange applies kind of across the board. Similarly, in work relationships, I hear so many, oh, so many of the women leaders. I work with, talk about the fact that they just feel like everybody’s sucking the life out of them. Like they’re expected to give so much. And I hear this specifically from women without kids, the idea that if they’re in the workplace, they, they don’t need to leave.
[00:16:33] Jess O’Reilly: They can stay later for the, for the meeting. Cause they don’t have a kid to pick up.
[00:16:36] Brandon Ware: They don’t, they don’t have anything to do.
[00:16:37] Jess O’Reilly: And so that, that exchange piece is really important in terms of balance. And then if we move on to other parts of the theory, and these aren’t necessarily written into the theory, but this is what I extrapolate from it.
[00:16:49] Jess O’Reilly: Enhancement. So in a, in a relationship you work together to enhance one another’s resources. So I might support your something to do with career or other part of self growth at a given point in time or across the lifespan of the relationship. And it’s a collaborative effort to strengthen the relationship and make it more satisfying.
[00:17:08] Jess O’Reilly: So there has to be that enhancement where it’s not just about how do I benefit from this. And I think that ties in with love, right? People sometimes when, especially 10 years ago, cause nobody was talking about this. They’re like, you’re taking this dry organizational. Psych theory and applying it to a marriage and it’s not the same and I’m not saying it’s the same.
[00:17:25] Jess O’Reilly: Of course It’s modified by the fact that marriages intimate relationships tend to be more intense in some ways than a work relationship But I think it’s still really important that we think about how we enhance one another’s resources in the workplace in Friendships even when you think about small things You might call it, for example, deposits and withdrawals, even when you go to the coffee shop and like, you bring some energy into it or you’re kind to, you know, the barista or.
[00:17:52] Brandon Ware: So silly, but it’s so, it’s so true when you make the effort, even if you feel uncomfortable, just be like, Hey, how are you today?
[00:17:58] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:17:59] Brandon Ware: How’s it going?
[00:17:59] Jess O’Reilly: You [00:18:00] know, there’s, I’m in this girls love travel group on Facebook.
[00:18:02] Brandon Ware: Oh no, here we go.
[00:18:03] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know if I’m even supposed to name it, but one of the conversations, I think this is okay to say, it’s a huge group, but sometimes they’ll talk about gifts they bring for the flight attendants for the flight crew and people get mad.
[00:18:13] Jess O’Reilly: People are like, they’re just doing their job. You don’t need to bring. So I always, if I can, I always bring something for the flight crew. Especially when I think about these short turnaround flights that are intense, you know, flight crew, at least in Canada, as I understand it, they’re not even paid till the door closes on the aircraft.
[00:18:28] Brandon Ware: And I think it’s also important. You’re not talking about bringing huge gifts. It could just be pastries or some small chocolates or of gold. No.
[00:18:35] Jess O’Reilly: Not the chocolate, the actual gold.
[00:18:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:18:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. For example, when we’re in, when we go through Jamaica, I always just pick them up little rum bar bottles on the way out or a treat from Super overpriced Jamaican Starbucks or something like that, whatever I can carry.
[00:18:49] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s not, it’s just something, it’s like a surprise. And I guess it’s becoming more common. So maybe it’s less of a surprise, but I look at that as a resource enhancement, even for a stranger. Anyhow, and then, okay, what have I not covered? Oh, preservation. So resource preservation. So these are all the ways that we kind of deal with resources and usually in terms of work stress.
[00:19:06] Jess O’Reilly: But I think that in relationships we’re motivated to preserve our individual resources as well. So I’m not talking about just the shared resources, but. my identity, my autonomy, my self efficacy. And I think that, again, this comes back to balance. How do we balance individual resources, coupled resources?
[00:19:24] Jess O’Reilly: And I think both are really important for a happy relationship because we lose it when we get in relationships. It was singles day last weekend. And so I did an interview around the benefits of being single and was looking into the data around how singles tend to be. Yeah. More self determined. Um, they have higher self efficacy.
[00:19:39] Jess O’Reilly: They have broader social support networks. They’re more open to new relationships and we lose that. I remember reading older research around the fact that our friend group shrinks when we get into a relationship, again, conservation of resources. We have so much time, so much energy, but I think that couples.
[00:19:56] Jess O’Reilly: We can get into our little bubbles.
[00:19:58] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think [00:20:00] that there is anyway, I agree with everything that you’re saying. I think that all the things, these things are really interesting to think about within the context of your relationship in terms of like, what is, what constitutes a resource, and you also said something that I thought was interesting, the idea of the resource exchange, but I think both.
[00:20:15] Brandon Ware: People in the relationship need to understand the exchange. Otherwise, could it not be, become a drain on the person who’s investing those exchanges into their other, into their partner without it being reciprocated? And I feel like that, that two way street of the exchange is what builds upon that, that as a resource.
[00:20:33] Brandon Ware: And when it becomes a one, one lane street, it becomes yet another. Source of depletion of resource.
[00:20:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and you’re making me think about how our identity informs our willingness to give and share versus take and Expectations even when we think about it in terms of like the domestic scenario and hetero relationships What’s expected of you because you’re a woman because you’re a man and I know that we’re breaking down those barriers but the data still shows that we fall back into those rules, especially after having kids and so when I think about Some of the women that I’m working with, so these are all leaders, they all run large companies, and they just feel like everybody’s taking, like everybody’s asking.
[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: And part of that is sociocultural. Part of it has been ingrained in them, so they just keep giving and giving and giving. And then we build resentment. So this is why, and I promise I’m going to get to the the real take home, I like this theory applied to burnout because it makes it quantitative and finite.
[00:21:29] Jess O’Reilly: Just to finish off some of the other pieces of the theory and how it can be applied to burnout in relationships, I think it’s again important to note that when our resources are depleted, when they’re threatened, It tends to lead to more stress and conflict in relationships. And some of us even engage in conflict to protect our resources or as a way to cope with the stress.
[00:21:48] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s a difficult thing to recognize. Uh, and this, this only is a cycle where it further depletes the resources, right? I mean, it’s, it’s pretty simple where I have a bad day at work. I can’t take it out on my team. [00:22:00] I feel like I have to be this positive leader in light of all the things that are happening around me.
[00:22:05] Jess O’Reilly: And I come home and I’ve got this buildup. And so you take it out on your kid or you take it out on your, and I don’t mean, you know, you yell at them, but you don’t have patience for them or you don’t have the energy for them. And I want to talk about one of those dynamics in a moment, just to finish this off.
[00:22:17] Jess O’Reilly: So in relationships. According to conservation of resource theory, we also employ adaptive strategies to protect our resources. So I think that if you go back and listen to previous podcasts, you’ll hear many of these adaptive strategies. Like for example, the relationship check in, right? That can help us to conserve resources and to balance resources because the balancing kind of interplays with all of these, these elements.
[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: We always are balancing individual and shared resources as we adapt. To life stages and changing circumstances. So it will never be 50, 50 at a given moment in time. And actually this topic, I want to do a whole episode on resource balancing because it’s so broad, it’s time, it’s attention, it’s energy, it’s supporting goals, it’s adaptation, and it’s equity across interactions and equity, I think across, I don’t know how to say it.
[00:23:06] Jess O’Reilly: I guess the relationship or the family ecosystem. So it’s a huge one. I’m really excited about this topic. I have some, I feel like I wanted to make this into six parts, but I know folks want their take home. And so here’s what we know. We know that couples who effectively manage, conserve, share resources are more likely to have long term satisfaction and stability in the relationship.
[00:23:26] Jess O’Reilly: And so I think that the theory really helps to underscore the importance of how we balance these resources as a key factor in the relationship, but also in terms of either preventing. Or addressing or solving burnout because burnout doesn’t really go away on its own.
[00:23:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And I think as you’re mentioning this, the importance I could imagine of putting what you deem a resource in writing to have a conversation about that with your partner, because when I can say getting physical activity to me is a resource.
[00:23:57] Brandon Ware: It’s something that makes me feel good, even in [00:24:00] the moment when I feel like crap when I’m doing it, but when I leave the gym or when I leave, whatever it is I’m doing, I feel better after
[00:24:07] Jess O’Reilly: that really makes me think of a dynamic that I see all the time around. Um, around somebody wanting to invest time in something and whether or not their partner can support it.
[00:24:17] Jess O’Reilly: I, we’re actually going to maybe get to that right, right now.
[00:24:19] Brandon Ware: Oh, okay. Let’s do it.
[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: I think all that being said, I wanted to give you some theory radical background, but I also want to talk about how it looks in practical terms, right? How do we take theory and put it into practice to deal with burnout or prevent burnout, but also to have happier relationships more generally.
[00:24:33] Jess O’Reilly: And I think the, the too long didn’t read answer. Like the short answer is we have to manage resources. including time, energy, and emotional support to prevent depletion and burnout in relationships, and we need to build back up those resources. So I have kind of a framework, some approaches to do that, and the first begins with resource depletion and enhancement, and it actually begins with yourself, so I think that a great place to start.
[00:24:59] Jess O’Reilly: is to really think about taking care of yourself first and prioritizing and making space for your partner to do the same. So I think it has to begin at the individual level because yes, there are shared resources, but I think most of our resources are individual to begin with. And then they go to partnerships and community.
[00:25:16] Jess O’Reilly: And, but I think that we have to look at ourselves and that might involve community by the way. So what this means, okay. And I’ve been saying this for years. You have to show up to the relationship with the resources you need to be a good partner. I don’t mean every single day. I don’t mean 50 50, but what I mean is that you need to make adjustments in your life so that you have resources to offer to the relationship that might mean that you need to work less.
[00:25:40] Jess O’Reilly: It might mean that you need to take care of yourself more. Maybe that means going to the gym or going to a class or doing things that leave you feel energized. It might mean adjusting your schedule when you can. Okay. I understand that people’s life circumstances are different, but I’m speaking from somebody that, you know, I only deal with.
[00:25:57] Jess O’Reilly: Leaders. Okay. They are not folks [00:26:00] who have to work three jobs to survive because that is a different situation. So that might mean that you, you choose to work less. It might mean that you adjust your schedule, you go to therapy, or you don’t go to therapy if it drains you. Or you do things that feel therapeutic even if they’re not therapy.
[00:26:15] Jess O’Reilly: So… If you do these things, you can show up with energy for your relationship, right? And I think you have to ask yourself, do I show up with the resources I need for this relationship? Or do I prioritize putting those resources elsewhere? Let me say that again. Cause I, I think, you know what I said? I think, you know what I said?
[00:26:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. So do you show up with the resources needed for the relationship or are you spending them elsewhere? And I see this in the couples I work with. And this is the dynamic. I think I was thinking of when you brought up the gym, they’ll say, I don’t have the energy to deal with this and they’ll say crap or kids or questions or whatever when I get home and they say don’t they know how demanding My job is and this of course makes me think of jobs demands resource theory But that’s more of an organizational question and listen, it’s okay for that to happen at times.
[00:27:01] Jess O’Reilly: It’s okay You’re launching new project you come home exhausted and you know, you’re not your best self fine But when it becomes the norm and not the exception it will Adversely affect your relationships with your partner, with your kids, with your friends, with your communities. Because, and this is to me the most important piece, resources like time, energy, and emotional capacity are finite.
[00:27:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. Boom. You have to choose where you use them. And if you don’t want to dedicate them to your relationship, there will be costs in that relationship, marriage or otherwise. And I’m actually kind of working on this. This exercise around managing this, but I’m not ready to go into it yet because I’m fine tuning it.
[00:27:41] Jess O’Reilly: But the challenge here that I see is that everyone says they don’t have time, right? Or they’re resentful or they’re resistant to their partner taking time for themselves. But if we apply contribution of resource theory, we know that anything that fills our cup means that we have more to bring to the relationship.
[00:27:56] Jess O’Reilly: Anything that drains our cup, of course, means we have less. So [00:28:00] this is the dynamic. If your partner works a lot and as soon as they come home, You want their attention. You want their love. You want their energy. And you get frustrated because, I don’t know, they want to go for a run. Or they want to read a book.
[00:28:10] Jess O’Reilly: Or they want to sit in peace for 15 minutes. Okay, I’m going to get to the other side because there’s always, you know, two sides. I, I want you to think about, okay, so they come home, they seem exhausted, they’re depleted. Resources are low, and they maybe are immediately frustrated with you because you want something from them that they don’t have the resources to give.
[00:28:28] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious on your side, from a relational perspective, what can you do to make more space for them to build back up their resources? Can you put some of these needs on hold for 15 minutes? Maybe you can’t, okay? Like, there are circumstances when you can’t.
[00:28:40] Brandon Ware: Of course, there are always circumstances, but…
[00:28:41] Jess O’Reilly: And then the other side is for the partner who comes home exhausted and doesn’t want to deal with… Kids or questions or decisions or affection or taking care of anyone because you’re so exhausted from taking care of everything at work that you just need some time to take care of yourself for a moment.
[00:28:56] Jess O’Reilly: What can you do differently? What can you do to conserve or build resources during the day so that you don’t regularly show up like that, right? It sort of takes two to tango. And so for the first partner, who’s like. You know, I’m taking care of the kids all day or I’m working all day. Plus I’m taking care of the kids and you walk in the door and you want to go for a run.
[00:29:13] Jess O’Reilly: Because like Brandon said, it’s how we build back up his resources. I see their perspective. I see both perspectives and this, this is not like a right, wrong. One of you needs to do more. One of you needs to do less, but this is a dynamic that I see all the time. And if you care about yourself and care about your family, probably more than you care about your work, although you don’t show it, I think that the conservation of resource theory reminds us that we have to build and utilize these resources.
[00:29:37] Jess O’Reilly: Intentionally, we can’t let them run away on things that don’t matter or that matter less. And so, yes, you want to go for a run because it clears your head after work, but maybe I’m managing this household. And also, by the way, I work, whether it’s out of the home or in the home. And so I think that if we can look at it as a resource issue, rather than a.
[00:29:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:30:00] Personal issue or relational issue, we can say, okay, we’ve got these many resources, or this is how we supplement or enhance resources. This is how we balance resources. This is how we deplete resources. And so I think it is on an individual level and a partnered level and a community level. Of course, like we haven’t, this is one of the things that conservation resource theory leaves out is what should we be doing at community levels?
[00:30:22] Jess O’Reilly: To make sure that people have resources just to be okay. Whether that’s the first set, which financial people need to be able to survive, people need to be able to pay rent. Yeah, I agree. Right. We were in a city right now where there are so many unoccupied movements, not movements, um, units. There are so many unoccupied units and there’s a movement called Ocupaz where people are moving into these units because they have nowhere to go.
[00:30:46] Jess O’Reilly: They can’t survive. And so. That’s not for me to solve. Um, although I want to be a part of the solution voting in a way that can support people being able to survive, but we have to look at this at a global community level and, you know, organizational psychology is less concerned with that and more concerned with profit.
[00:31:03] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s where some of these theories are a great starting point, but fall short. But I, to this dynamic, I, what I say is. If you’re investing in yourself to boost your resources first, it’s a way of saying, yeah, I’m going to prioritize self care, but I think it’s helpful to think about resources as quantifiable, right?
[00:31:20] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ve got this much resources. Where do I want to dedicate them? And maybe even ask yourself, does my partner deserve these really resources? I mean, that’s rhetoric. Of course, it’s a reminder to yourself. Do I want to give some of these resources to my kids or do I want to come home exhausted every night?
[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: And yes, Sometimes that happens, especially for my clients. They’re launching a new brand. They’re launching a new project. There’s a week or two or a month where things are just off the charts. That’s a decision you’re making, but is that how you want to live your life? And here’s what I hear from these folks and why I’m seeing so many folks decide to leave these gigs or not retire early, but shift you think it’s a month and you think it’s three months and you think it’s a year and four years goes by four or [00:32:00] nine years.
[00:32:00] Jess O’Reilly: And honestly, I feel brought to tears because I’m thinking about the stories and I’m thinking about this dynamic where we think, Oh, my partner’s selfish. They come home and they just want to go for a run. Meanwhile, I have to wrangle these kids. I have to wrangle dinner. I have to do all this. But really what it is is their resources are depleted.
[00:32:16] Jess O’Reilly: And so what can you do to support them and what can they do to support themselves? Does that make sense? Did I get away with that?
[00:32:21] Brandon Ware: No, I mean, it does.
[00:32:22] Jess O’Reilly: Went too far with all that?
[00:32:23] Brandon Ware: I don’t think you went too far. I think it, it, For me, it dawned on me the other day. It’s such a simple concept, but in order to move forward with something, you have to let go of something.
[00:32:30] Brandon Ware: And it’s such a simple concept that I’ve overlooked so many times. But if I want to give to you, I have to give up on something else. And I want to give to you using our relationship as an example, and I’m willing to give up. Some of that energy that I’m going to give to somebody else who I don’t want to say doesn’t matter, but it’s not as important.
[00:32:50] Jess O’Reilly: So, yeah, I hear what you’re saying. And when I think about it in the context, like I know what you’re saying, you’re not saying I need to give up the gym. You’re, I think what you’re saying is sometimes I give energy. to things that don’t matter. Sometimes I take, you take energy, all of us, with people who piss you off and you spend time reconciling that when you know what, it’s actually not worth it.
[00:33:11] Brandon Ware: No. And that’s really what it was making reference to. It wasn’t about taking away in this context from something that added to my life satisfaction. It actually, I was thinking about taking away from someone or something that wasn’t as important. And I could dedicate less time to that and more time to this.
[00:33:30] Brandon Ware: So in this example, let’s just say our relationship in some way. I come home and you know what? Because I didn’t spend that extra 15 or 20 minutes stressing about that person or that thing. I can give a bit more energy to this. I can come home and before I walk through the door, I can put a smile on my face and be like, how was your day?
[00:33:46] Brandon Ware: What can I do to help you right now? You know what? Why don’t you take 15 minutes and go and sit down? Why don’t you take 15 minutes or half an hour and go do something that. That’s going to add to your tank. And then when you take those 15, 20, 30 minutes and replenish your tank, [00:34:00] you’re going to come back half an hour later to this relationship in a better headspace.
[00:34:04] Brandon Ware: And likely if it’s like how I feel willing to give more back to your partner. So it’s this cycle of giving and taking and the exchange you referenced before, where it’s like you came in the door. I’ve got the kids, I’ve got dinner ready to go, or I’m, I’m in the midst of everything, which would be a gong show if I was preparing dinner, just as a side note.
[00:34:23] Brandon Ware: But you know, I’m prepping dinner and then you come in and you’re like, you know what, let me take over here for 15 or 20 minutes and then boom, I’m, I’m energized.
[00:34:30] Jess O’Reilly: You’re really describing teamwork, but what gets in the way of this is resentment. when one partner perceives that they’re doing more, right?
[00:34:38] Jess O’Reilly: When, and I think that, you know, we have research showing that it’s not about the division of labor. It’s about the perceived division of labor. So whether I do more or not, it doesn’t matter if I perceive myself as doing more. And so I think that if we think about. You know, making a list or helping to understand or asking myself why I do more or why I think I do more.
[00:34:56] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes we don’t realize how much our partners do, which was a lesson that came out of the pandemic from. So with the clients I was working with, usually there’s a partner who runs a business and travels a lot and is away from the home more than the other usually. Okay. And usually that is the guy. And so what a lot of these guys said was I had no clue what it took for her to take care of all this stuff.
[00:35:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like I had no clue. And then the flip side was I didn’t realize what their day was like with work, you know, putting out fires. And again, there are exceptions and it’s not always along gendered lines, but there’s, I think, an appreciation for what the other. Does, that’s so important. And maybe making that inherent, like not having to see that because we do have a, you know, we have a bias towards ourselves where we think that we’re doing more than other people.
[00:35:39] Jess O’Reilly: We think that our intentions are better than other people’s intentions. And so I think that this theory is one way to depersonalize and just say, okay, we’ve got this many resources. How do we make this work? It’s not your fault. It’s not my fault. It’s not that you’re a selfish jerk who wants to go for a run.
[00:35:52] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not that, you know, I’m overwhelmed. It’s that this is what we’re dealing with. Okay. We have to move on. So. Yeah. I think really beginning with [00:36:00] taking care of yourself first and thinking about how you want to dedicate your resources. And I think the more you’re talking, Brandon, the more I’m realizing that this exercise I’ve come up with, this tool is kind of neat and simple.
[00:36:09] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. It’s not rocket science. Next is really resource preservation. So setting boundaries between other sources of resource depletion and your marriage or relationships or family. Okay. And so the primary source of resource drain for my clients is always work. And some of them set boundaries and some of them do not.
[00:36:25] Jess O’Reilly: And the outcomes are clear. Those who have clear boundaries fare better in their relationships, but also when it comes to their overall mental and physical health. And so there are so many ways this could look, this could be as simple as. Taking real time off without checking emails, and that’s really hard for a lot of people who run companies.
[00:36:42] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a lot, really hard for a lot of employees because of the pressure that companies put on them, leaving the phone out of the bedroom and family spaces, not having it at the dinner table. It sounds silly, but when you sit down for dinner again, oh my gosh, there’s so much fascinating research around families and relationships, families who sit down.
[00:36:58] Jess O’Reilly: And have dinner and have conversations are putting deposits in their resource bank, right? In terms of bonding, understanding, care, compassion, all of these things, you know, maybe setting alarms to well, first you have to set the boundaries and then you have to set the alarms around when you’re going to connect and when you’re not, because most of us wake up and reach our phones, our phones are our first and last things.
[00:37:18] Jess O’Reilly: We deal with even as you’re dealing with each other or yourselves or your kids. And so is it possible, like for example, you know, I have clients who don’t check their phones for the first two hours of the day or the last two hours. And then I have clients who many, many, many clients who check their phones throughout the night, 3am, 4am, 5am, it doesn’t matter.
[00:37:35] Jess O’Reilly: And so you’re going to see different outcomes depending on how you set those boundaries. Another piece is just really clearly communicating. out of office time to staff, to teams, to board members, and we’re afraid to do that. I know I am. Like, I have, you know, contracts with different clients, and I’m a, you know, I, I can, I, I can take however much time off I want, or I can take no time off at all.
[00:37:55] Jess O’Reilly: But if I were to say, you know, there’s going to be this five day period where I’m not [00:38:00] answering press ops or things like that, I don’t want to do that too often because I’m afraid that I’ll, especially their Western clients, that I’ll be judged. With European clients, it’s okay, like I can say, it’s August and so I think that we need to think about how do we preserve our resources in terms of setting boundaries with other sources of resource drain.
[00:38:21] Jess O’Reilly: And then third, I think about resource exchange, like, how do we take care of each other? And we can only do that if we’ve taken care of one and two, how do we give and take? And the big thing around resource exchange that I think is missing is asking. This is the biggest learning for me. And I think it’s hard to apply because we’ve research.
[00:38:37] Jess O’Reilly: Showing that when you ask for help, you become more likable. It creates trust. It cements bonds in from like a one on one perspective. It’s disarming, right? So you’re not just telling your partner how you feel, but why you’re feeling it and how they can support you. Right? So if I come in and you’re busy taking care of things and I want to be left alone and you want me to pay attention to you and contribute to the household.
[00:39:01] Jess O’Reilly: I, maybe I say like, I’m exhausted. I had a hard day. Well, dude, yes, I’m exhausted. And I had a hard day too, is what you’re going to say. But if I say, listen, I really struggled with this today, would you mind? Or how would you feel? Yeah, very different, very different language. Yeah, so just asking for help when we need it.
[00:39:18] Jess O’Reilly: And what I see in relationships is a power play. We’re like, I’m not going to ask for help. Because if I ask, I acknowledge that you’re giving. Whereas what I do is I manipulate, I change, I complain, I grunt. I do whatever it is to get what I want from you. Everything except saying, baby, you know what I could really use right now?
[00:39:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right? And then I blow up. Like we, we get a little bit stubborn. That’s another thing we need to break. The other thing of course is, is resource enhancement. So if we’re thinking about burnout, we have to be able to recognize the signs of burnout in ourselves and our partners and just simply offer support.
[00:39:48] Jess O’Reilly: And sometimes it’s just listening to be us. Uh, what would I call it? I guess a resource enhancer. And then when we think of resource enhancement in other ways, we have to be doing that across the relationship, right? And this might [00:40:00] be spending time together, setting goals together, finding new ways to connect, finding ways to build intimacy and excitement and passion because we know that when we have this strong social tie, it’s a buffer.
[00:40:14] Jess O’Reilly: Against burnout, right? We know that social support is a buffer against burnout, and so we have to make that happen. It doesn’t happen on its own. We have to make the time to spend quality time together. However, however you define it and engage in activities or conversations that bring us closer and feel good because yes, quality time also helps to replenish emotional resources.
[00:40:35] Jess O’Reilly: And I think I already talked a little bit about resource protection in terms of regular check ins, right? Checking in about the state of the relationship, addressing concerns, getting to them before they become bigger. And then I also think another important piece is resource banking. So when something is good, lean into it, celebrate it.
[00:40:54] Jess O’Reilly: We know that like celebrating. all the little things, taking pleasure in all the little things. We know from the workplace research that it, that it boosts morale and it contributes to positive team connections. And it’s the same thing in the household with your partner, with your kids, with anyone who’s important in your life, like really, uh, making time to celebrate.
[00:41:12] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us are from backgrounds. Where celebration is scary. When something good happens, we’re kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Some of us are from backgrounds where I don’t know, you get perfect on a spelling test and there’s never going to be a congratulations. No one’s, you know, I didn’t grow up with like, Oh, that’s amazing.
[00:41:30] Jess O’Reilly: Just, or like, good for you. It was like, Oh. All right. Good. Make sure you get it the next time.
[00:41:34] Brandon Ware: I don’t remember a lot of celebrations even growing up, but there were celebrations around events, meaning like birthdays or holidays. But like you said, there wasn’t a lot of celebration of the small things. And I do find like, I’m trying to celebrate more of the small little wins in life.
[00:41:47] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, every day I walk out into this living room and I am like, man, it’s beautiful. And I say it out loud. Cause I want. I want you to see it too. It’s a tiny little bid for connection and acknowledgement. And it sounds so [00:42:00] silly, but we’ve, we’ve spent a little time like putting it together. We’ve got our bar.
[00:42:03] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got our flowers. I love the way it looks. And so it’s little tiny things. And of course, bigger things too. Right. And I think you’re really good about it with me. I remember like if I got a deal or I signed a contract or had something new, I think even when I told you about, you know, the cruise, you were like, amazing, congrats.
[00:42:21] Jess O’Reilly: Even though we knew it was going to happen, even though I’ve, you know, done others before, but with yourself, you’ve never been like that. Like I remember the first time you closed a deal. I remember the first time you closed a big deal. You, your response was literally, do I want to know what do you think it was?
[00:42:36] Jess O’Reilly: This is 20 years ago, or I don’t know how many years, 18, it was probably,
[00:42:39] Brandon Ware: I got to do it again. Or how am I going to do this again?
[00:42:41] Jess O’Reilly: Exactly.
[00:42:41] Brandon Ware: Yeah. You know what? I took that approach. Every year trying to, at the end of the year, rather than celebrating the accomplishments of the year, I would, I would start to panic or not panic, but I, there’d be anxiety thinking about how I would replicate my production the following year.
[00:42:56] Brandon Ware: And it was only when I started to break that cycle that I, you know, I took so much more pleasure in. In working.
[00:43:04] Jess O’Reilly: In other words, you had more resources.
[00:43:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah. No, no, no. And it’s, it’s funny how you look back and reflect on things and, and you can start to draw parallels or you know, you can see, like, I could see that example, I could see the burnout, all of these things.
[00:43:16] Brandon Ware: But it’s, you know, it’s unfortunate that. Some of these negative events had to had to happen for me to see the positive.
[00:43:23] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm,
[00:43:23] Brandon Ware: but thankfully, you know kind of touch wood that there hasn’t been anything too too negative And I do take I do take joy out of small things now like I can think about I remember Walking out of a coffee shop for the first time and taking a sip of this coffee and thinking I really enjoy this Like I can remember exactly where I was I take pleasure now In my flowers, I really, I have this Bougainvillea and I’m like, man, I love this Bougainvillea.
[00:43:51] Brandon Ware: I go and I look at it. I will angle the chair so that I can see it while I’m reading.
[00:43:55] Jess O’Reilly: And is that, would you consider that a source of emotional [00:44:00] resource? Enhancement?
[00:44:01] Brandon Ware: Enhancement? Absolutely. I would, it’s a small thing, but it adds to the tank,
[00:44:06] Jess O’Reilly: especially when. The news is so bad, right? Like we’re just constantly consuming.
[00:44:11] Jess O’Reilly: There’s tragedy around the world. All right. And it’s always been there. And you know, we’re from Canada where it also exists, but with privilege, you haven’t seen, we haven’t seen it our whole lives and the shift. And I think democratization of access to news has changed things. And so when you’re bombarded with the reality, which is.
[00:44:30] Jess O’Reilly: draining and negative and sad and can leave you feeling, leave you feeling kind of hopeless. It is small things that build back up that joy. Yes, it’s getting to spend time together. Yes, it’s having a lovely meal together, but sometimes it’s just a sip of coffee or a flower. And maybe that sounds cheesy to people, but I mean, you figure out what your joy is for other people.
[00:44:47] Jess O’Reilly: It’s like beating their time in a race or
[00:44:50] Brandon Ware: I’m not trying or I’m not trying to downplay anybody else’s accomplishments. I’m just saying, I want to recognize the smallest of wins and I want to, and I want it. Recognize how they contribute to my happiness and they buffer those stresses.
[00:45:04] Jess O’Reilly: No, I think when you think about celebrating, they always talk about achievements, but it’s more than that.
[00:45:08] Jess O’Reilly: It’s every piece of joy in your life. And then also not feeling bad if you miss it. Cause people will say like, Oh, I don’t stop and smell the roses. Okay. So just do it. We can change some of our behaviors. I mean, and hopefully everyone has access to joy because it is. Harder to find that in, you know, certain circumstances.
[00:45:22] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I think we need to wrap it up. And what I want to say is in light of conservation of resource theory and how it might be applied to burnout, I think that I have some questions that are kind of a very loose exercise you can use to make adjustments or at least recognize where you’re at. So I’ve written down, I think, seven questions here that you can think about or jot down your answers to.
[00:45:41] Jess O’Reilly: The first is what factors are depleting your resources? Make a whole list. What factors are enhancing? Your resources and how are you preserving your resources? How are you sharing resources in relationships? And then how can you make cuts to some of the factors that deplete your resources because you can’t [00:46:00] cut them all and it might be limitations, right?
[00:46:02] Jess O’Reilly: Boundaries. And how are you able to access more of the factors that are accessible to you? Then enhance your resources. That was too long of a sentence. What I mean is how do you access more of the things that enhance your resources?
[00:46:15] Brandon Ware: And like you said, the nice thing about this exercise is once you’ve John, once you jot them all down, you can start to implement change immediately.
[00:46:21] Jess O’Reilly: And maybe just one small thing. Like if I make a list of all the things that deplete my resources. I can’t change them all. Like, please just consider picking one thing today. I already kind of figured out as I was talking this through, my brain has 42 tabs open what I’m, what I’m going to move forward with.
[00:46:36] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ll challenge you to think about what’s the thing you’re going to do to either reduce the depletion of your resources. or enhance the enhancement of your resources and we’ll leave it at that. Good to chat with you, babe.
[00:46:47] Brandon Ware: Thank you.
[00:46:47] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, folks.
[00:46:50] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.
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Eroticize Daily Interactions: 20 Actionable Tips For Busy Couple
10 nov 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
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How to Eroticize Daily Interactions
Keeping the spark alive in a relationship amidst routine can feel challenging, especially if you’re super busy. You’re not a light switch; it’s natural to need a transition from everyday roles (work, parenting, chores) into a sensual, playful state. To celebrate our wedding anniversary, Brandon and I have curated over 20 actionable tips you can easily implement to make your daily interactions more fun, passionate, and erotic.
Establish Role Rituals
A ritual to transition from your public role to your private, intimate role can help create emotional and erotic closeness. It could be something as simple as playing a favourite song, mixing cocktails, or switching off your phones.
Morning Kindness
Starting your day with small gestures, like making coffee or leaving a sweet note, can strengthen connection and make your partner feel valued. It’s an easy and energizing way to start your day.
The Complaint Dump
Take 2-5 minutes daily to vent frustrations together, clearing the air to allow space for positivity and intimacy later. Pull out the timer and stick to it!
Playful Texts
Use texts playfully instead of just practically. Send fun, flirty, or incomplete messages to pique your partner’s interest. Use memes, videos or whatever gets you rolling.
Sexy Photos and Notes
Exchange playful notes or flirty images, enhancing intimacy even when you’re apart.
Physical Connection Reset
Take two minutes to connect physically: lie forehead-to-forehead, breathing together. This enhances emotional closeness through interpersonal synchronization.
Embrace Playfulness
Physical and verbal playfulness—like joking, teasing, or playful wrestling—deepens intimacy, reduces stress, and fosters attraction.
Spend Time Apart
Intimacy thrives with a little mystery and distance. Enjoy solo walks or separate activities occasionally.
Loving Objectification
Within a respectful, loving context, take time to openly appreciate your partner’s physical attributes.
Minimize Technological Distractions
Create tech-free zones or times, especially in your bedroom, to prioritize connection and intimacy.
Quality Time Blocks
Regularly set aside quality time together where certain stressful topics (work, kids, pandemic) are off-limits. Instead, ask fun, hypothetical questions to reconnect.
Compliment Generously
Offer meaningful compliments frequently, ranging from simple admiration to lustful appreciation.
Touch Without Agenda
Physical affection when you’re not specifically seeking sex helps maintain emotional and physical connection, enhancing overall intimacy.
Mood Music
Music can set the stage for intimacy. Choose music aligned with how you want to feel—powerful, playful, or relaxed.
Netflix and Strip
Turn Netflix nights into playful erotic opportunities by removing clothing based on keywords heard during your favorite show.
The 99 Rule
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And if you’re looking to explore deeper sexual connections, check out our other posts:
Emotional Seduction: The Core Erotic Feeling – Learn how you need to feel to enhance your sex lifeQuick Connection Exercise for Couples – Physical strategies for daily reconnection.How to get your libido back – For couples looking to reignite their sexual spark.

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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 341 – Eroticize Daily Interactions: 20 Actionable Tips For Busy Couples
Intro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight.
Dr. Jess: Hey, we’ve got a replay of one of my favorite topics, one of my favorite episodes on eroticizing daily interactions from April 2021, so you might hear some references to a totally different time. It’s a time warp.
Brandon: Welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast. I am your co host, Brandon Ware, here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey, hey. How are you?
Dr. Jess: I’m feeling good. I’m feeling good. I’m interested in this conversation for the two of us as well.
We’re going to be talking about how to make your daily interactions more erotic and What are you laughing at?
Brandon: I’m immediately thinking about eating a banana.
Dr. Jess: Oh my gosh, because in my presentations I always talk about how [00:01:00] to eroticize daily interactions because you’re not a light switch. You can’t go from talking about your taxes and your work and your kids and whether or not your dog had a bowel movement on its last walk to just flipping the switch and being, oh, hi.
Hey. Tear my clothes off, right? And my joke is when I say To eroticize your daily interactions. I don’t mean make everything annoyingly erotic, right? I don’t want to be eating a banana and have Brandon look over and be like, Oh yeah, you eat that banana. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s really more about playfulness and flirtation and I don’t know, all these different ways to be erotic.
It doesn’t have to be super sexual or graphic. So we’re going to be getting into that. I mean, I guess before we do, I should ask you, Do you feel like our interactions are particularly erotic?
Brandon: I don’t think that I’m an erotic person. I feel very self conscious whenever I’m [00:02:00] trying to do something that I think is erotic, whether I’ve seen it on, you know, TV, movie, somewhere, I feel like a goof doing it.
So when I see people who are genuinely erotic and they just exude the sex appeal, I’m, I’m like, good on you because when I try that, I feel like I look like a goof. I don’t know. Or I sound like a girl. Hey,
Dr. Jess: yeah. No, but you are naturally charming. Like flirtation is sort of charming. You may not be overtly sexual about it.
Yes. I also wonder if you haven’t had to be because people like the way you look so much.
Brandon: Well, maybe. I don’t know. Perhaps. If that’s what I’ve got going for myself,
Dr. Jess: you’ve got uh.
Brandon: Uh, yeah, certainly not the words
Dr. Jess: that I say. I don’t think that’s entirely true, but I would say that we’ve been getting along really well.
I would agree. I feel like we, we laugh a lot and we’re playful. I mean, I’m super funny. Well, I keep you laughing all day because my jokes are better than [00:03:00] yours and then you just repeat my jokes louder. That’s the trick,
Brandon: everyone listening. Just say the joke louder.
Dr. Jess: And be a man. And be a white man. And then everyone thinks you’re hilarious.
Pretty much. Uh, and so, yeah, I think this will be an interesting conversation to go through and see what we do and don’t do, because I’ve made this list for us of 20 ways to keep the flame burning, to make your daily interactions more erotic, and not necessarily to lead to sex all the time. So the reason I feel all of these things lay the groundwork so that sex becomes possible.
Like it doesn’t make sex automatic, it just means that like I can easily get in the mood with you because I like you, because I laugh with you, because you laugh at my jokes really loudly.
Brandon: You are very, very funny. I think you’re always making me laugh. And speaking of laughing and fun, having fun, we should shout out Lovehoney. Go over to lovehoney.com. Be sure to pick something up that Tickles, vibrates, a little [00:04:00] lingerie, something to spice up your day and be sure to use code DRJESS15, DRJESS15 to save a few extra dollars. And please know that we really appreciate all of your support. So with that being said.
Dr. Jess: Let’s talk about Eroticism and how do we’ve eroticism throughout your day? because if you only act like roommates or business partners or co parents or friends all the time, it can be hard to kind of shift into that lover role. This is what I hear from a lot of people. I don’t know, do you, do you feel that way?
Brandon: I feel that way at times, where I, I just have a hard time shifting from I’m in work mode or I’m in whatever mode, and then all of a sudden it’s, we’re going upstairs. And I know that I should be in relaxation and sexy time mode. But I’m not always there. So yeah, I experience it a
Dr. Jess: bit. You’re just too busy playing on WhatsApp for cryptocurrency.
Oh man,
Brandon: don’t even start.
Dr. Jess: Well, it’s interesting that you start [00:05:00] there. So this wasn’t the first one on my list, but I think we can go to the role ritual strategy. So I’ve talked about this before. So picking a role ritual at the end of the day that shifts from your more public role to the more private or more sensual one that you play exclusively with your partner.
So something that maybe helps you to relax and enjoy yourself or be a better version of yourself. So maybe it’s playing a song like this song means we’re done with parenting or we’re done with work and we’re just Connecting with one another again. It doesn’t mean you have to have sex at all. Just we’re gonna be here and present It might be mixing a cocktail.
It might be changing your clothes. Oh nice. Yeah, not so much right now I find because we’re all wearing our like indoor clothes. We’re in Toronto. So in Toronto just to give some context up here in Canada first of all, we’re much farther behind on the vaccine versus the States and also We’re on a, what’s it called?
Stay at home order. Stay at home order, yeah. You can’t, you can’t leave the house [00:06:00] unless it’s to do one of. 77 things. It’s 30 actually.
Brandon: One of which is any other action.
Dr. Jess: So yeah, we’re not wearing different clothes, but it might also be just switching your phone off. Like definitely for me, once I put my phone down and I’m trying to do it earlier and earlier.
It’s a little signal that, hey, I’m, I’m not working. I’m not thinking about other things. I’m just focusing on winding down for the night. It could be writing in a journal. It could be that you close your blinds, right? Uh, it could be that you stretch or you read a few pages from a book, or maybe you change the lighting.
Uh, maybe you dance. And it can be different every night, like sometimes we dance, but some nights we don’t. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,
Brandon: I found that the role ritual really had a profound effect when we relocated for a few months to Jamaica. I noticed that at a certain point after dinner, I would put my phone into, um, sleep mode or into the nighttime mode.
And that it took a little while, but it certainly helped me shift away because it was like, well, I’m [00:07:00] not touching my phone anymore. So it means I can focus on anything else, which might’ve been having a drink, might’ve been reading a book or just relaxing and. Watching a show and it really that buffer between that and if you are going to have sex if that’s you know It just made it a lot easier if that’s your thing if that’s your
Dr. Jess: jam So we’ll go with that one as number one think about having a role ritual to kind of shift and then number two So that’s for night time has to do with the exact opposite So number two is about starting your day on the right foot So thinking of something small you can do for your partner that takes you 30 seconds or a minute to just kind of perform an act of kindness and it can help to reduce your anxiety and obviously make them feel important, which makes them more attracted to you.
So it might be that, you know, maybe you bring them a glass of water while they’re, you know, on a call or maybe it means you put their clothes out or clean their laptop screen or put a chocolate on their pillow or hide a note in their underwear drawer or warm up their socks on the heating vent. What are you
Brandon: laughing at?
I don’t even know. I’m just thinking about doing all of these things. It just seems [00:08:00] funny. Hide a note in your underwear drawer. Let’s play hide and seek.
Dr. Jess: No, like a nice note. No, no, I know. You used to do that in my suitcase when I’d go away. Yeah, when you went
Brandon: away. I would do that. I would write out 10 or 15 different notes and I would tuck them into different pieces of your clothing or parts of your suitcase in the hopes that you would find them.
Not when you got to the airport before you left.
Dr. Jess: Yeah, I really love, I loved that. So, okay, number one was the roll ritual. Number two is try and do something like tiny for them in the morning. I mean, you always make me my coffee. Yeah,
Brandon: uh, happy to make you a coffee. Does not take two minutes. I mean, damn, it takes me like 12 minutes
Dr. Jess: to make a coffee.
This morning
Brandon: you cheated. I did cheat. And it, yeah, I did. And we got a complaint. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, and I, I was just going to say, and we’re getting comments
Dr. Jess: on it, aren’t we? No, it wasn’t a complaint, I just said, hey, the coffee didn’t taste the coffee sucks. What’s up with it? But he didn’t, he didn’t use the proper espresso machine.
I’m sorry, like, how, how difficult am I? Sure
Brandon: you don’t want to keep talking about this or do you want to move on to the next point? So,
Dr. Jess: so high [00:09:00] maintenance. Okay, let’s move on to number three, and this one’s for you, Brennan, this is about taking a dump. . Okay, so you probably know what this is ’cause you’ve heard me talk about it before.
Brandon: I have. And it is not defecating.
Dr. Jess: No, no. It’s a complaint dump. So at the end of your day, or at some point during your day, can you just give yourselves two minutes or however many minutes you assign to it all out to get it all out so that you’re not complaining all throughout the day and all throughout the evening, and kind of shift the conversation away from.
Uh, a focus on kind of perceived negatives to create space for eroticism and playfulness and flirtation and I want, I want to be really clear this isn’t about be positive, love and light because there are definitely things to complain about and that’s okay but can you relegate them to a certain time or talk them out in a meaningful way rather than kind of allowing them to permeate throughout your day and into your night and into your bedroom.
Brandon: If you set a [00:10:00] timer and try to do this. This can be challenging. For me, I got a laundry list by the end of the day, man. It’s like, I’m gonna have to like speed talk through these next
Dr. Jess: two minutes. You’re not a big complainer though. Uh,
Brandon: no, not unless somebody wants to trash talk me about putting up the trash.
What?
Dr. Jess: Um. Oh, you mean the neighbors. Yeah, Brandon. Not you. Yeah, yeah, I know what you’re talking about. You do complain about your, your neck injury a lot. Which
Brandon: has since turned into a wonderful acupuncture, uh, doctor who’s fantastic.
Dr. Jess: Yeah, so you are complaining less about that. I am, yes. What do I tend to complain about?
Obviously the cold.
Brandon: Definitely the cold.
Dr. Jess: Um. The good thing is I have full control over the weather. Maybe
Brandon: the the food that we are or are not eating depending what
Dr. Jess: we’re ordering. Oh, yeah, if I have a bad meal, you know
Brandon: Yeah,
Dr. Jess: we’re gonna hear about it. So yeah, definitely a complaint dump can be a way just to relegate Certain, you know, negative conversations and also important conversations to a [00:11:00] different time.
And it doesn’t have to be two minutes. It can be, uh, it could be a, you know, 15 minutes, however long you want. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s also about taking it outta the bedroom. Yeah. Okay. Next, uh, on my list I have text playfully. So rather than just texting to update your partner about. day or ask them to, you know, pick up milk on the way home to think about texting for fun, like to use that medium to kind of cultivate connection and curiosity.
So maybe you send them. Like playful messages or incomplete messages in the morning, like a line from a song and then you kind of create like a drip text campaign. Um, or you just send them an image that you think is funny. One thing that I love, babe, and even though we’re in the same house and it’s not like a big house, we’re not far away from each other.
So at 11 11, I don’t know if folks do this, you know you’re supposed to make a wish at 11 11.
Brandon: I know that because I make a wish every day at
Dr. Jess: 11. 11. I know, but you’re the one who told me, so I don’t know how widespread this phenomenon is. Oh, yeah, I don’t know. That was just something I always did. Yeah, the superstitious [00:12:00] thing.
So I wasn’t raised with it, but I love it. So whenever 11. 11 shows up, I make my wish in my head, and I always wish for the exact same thing. And what I find is that it’s this huge reset. Because it’s, you know, I’ll be stressing about one thing or another, or, you know, worried about one thing with work, but then there’s only actually one thing I wish for, and there’s only one thing that I’m really focused on, and so it’s a reminder that whatever I’m worrying about probably isn’t that big, but my point is, you send me a text at 11 11, sometimes just to remind me that it’s 11 11 with like a heart, and And I don’t know it feels good even though like today you sent it to me.
I was on a somebody else’s podcast so I was upstairs and you were downstairs and I just like seeing it pop up on my phone. Yeah, it’s nice to
Brandon: get the message right when you’re not expecting
Dr. Jess: it. Yeah, so texting like think about how you can text for playful reasons and not just practical ones. Another option is to Send kind of sexy photos and it doesn’t have to be of yourself.
It could be any erotic photo or video that you like. It could be an incomplete image. It could be like a gif.
Brandon: Like a sexy [00:13:00] turtle
Dr. Jess: or something. Yes, a sexy turtle. But yeah. So it could be of other people, not obviously stolen pictures. I mean, things that are in the public domain. Like a sexy turtle. No, not a sexy turtle.
Okay. Well, the next thing on my list you made fun of, so I don’t know if I want to bring it up. It’s to like leave them love notes or playful or sexy notes where you like hide it in their underwear drawer. Because it’s just so easy to get caught up in this day to day. You know routine of work and response personal responsibilities And so you do you start acting like roommates and so I had suggested that you know people right now Just write down five little one liners for their partner and hide them throughout the house where where they’ll find them Right at some point and it doesn’t have to be today It could be like in a week and so it could be an email it could be you could mail it to them even
Brandon: Oh, that’s a good idea.
And you know, I wasn’t making fun of it. I think I, again, was [00:14:00] self conscious because I’m not very, I’m not very effusive. I’m not very verbal, like my, here we go, already struggling for words, right? As
Dr. Jess: evidenced by
Brandon: the blank, uh, um, but no, I just, I think I was self conscious. I was self conscious, but when I sent, when I did do that, it met with.
Such success that I would recommend to anyone who has a partner that travels. Ten little notes. Hide them in a bag. Hide them in their suitcase. Because when they find them, it’s a nice, it lets them know that you were thinking about
Dr. Jess: them. Especially when you’re on the road. I have to say, anything, as much as I love being on the road, and would do anything to get back on the road, uh, it’s, It’s lonely and it’s unfamiliar and I actually like those things sort of, but there’s something about familiarity when you’re on the road.
It’s sort of like, you know, if, if I’m in a city and there’s someone from Toronto in that city and we figure out that we’re in the city, we would never get together in Toronto, but we’ll meet for a drink in this [00:15:00] other city because there’s, there’s something about familiarity. So. Seeing your handwriting in my bag.
I still have a lot of those notes. Oh, do you? Yeah, you know I’m not a pack rat. No, you, we like to throw stuff out. But I have a few of those notes that you wrote on little tiny pieces of graph paper. Oh, nice. Uh, and I think I’ve left you notes, like in bed. I
Brandon: have letters and cards that you gave me when we first got together.
I, I hang on to. What did they say? Pretty much that I’m awesome. So I thought, you know, it was important to keep them. For yourself? Yeah, just a little self confidence
Dr. Jess: boost. Okay, so love notes. Here’s, here’s the other thing. We’re gonna give you 20 options, and you don’t have to do them all. Like if you could just pick one or two that appeal to you, I think that’s a great place to start.
Our next one is a physical activity that I think is really useful right now while we’re working from home. And this is just resetting with two minutes of physical connection. Because again, life kind of gets out of control. We forget to take the time to [00:16:00] connect, whether it’s emotionally or physical, physically, and this is just a quick two minute activity that can help you to feel more in the moment, more present, more in your body, more connected.
And all you’re going to do is lie next to each other or even sit next to each other. And bring your foreheads together and take, I always say, 11 deep breaths. And it can feel really weird and distracting and uncomfortable at first, but as you kind of start to slip into that third, fourth, fifth breath, you tend to feel more relaxed, you tend to feel closer to one another.
And there’s this concept of interpersonal synchronization where your heart and your breath rates start to align and your pain levels start to subside and even your like skin conductance begins to sync up. So we’ve done this before. We did this for a video course that we have, right?
Brandon: Yeah, we did. And as you said, the first few breaths that you take do feel a little weird.
The physical sensation of having somebody else’s forehead pressed against yours is [00:17:00] not something that you experience very often. So it takes one or two breaths to kind of get accustomed to that. And then I felt a little silly at first, but then like four or five breaths in, I was like, yeah, this is kind of work.
This is working. And then by the end of it, you’re like, okay, I, I I felt more relaxed, definitely. Yeah. More connected.
Dr. Jess: Yeah. So, okay, moving on. So, last week on CBC, I was talking about a new study that found that playfulness is super important in relationships and we already have kind of a wealth of data suggesting that playfulness is connected to all these positive outcomes in terms of connection and attraction and sex and all of these good things.
So, I was thinking about What does that mean, right? And I looked at the research and there’s this massive range of definitions from playing around like kids, to joking, to bringing levity, to showing curiosity. And so I sort of divided it into different types of playfulness. So starting with physical playfulness.
And this is really important for folks who are really [00:18:00] kinesthetic, right? Uh, physical playfulness is kind of an obvious route. to being playful. So this might be as simple as wrestling, wrestling around a little, like maybe when you’re both reaching for the remote. That could be Adam’s thing. That’s right.
Loves some wrestling. Right, Adam from Moon Tower counseling. He was on the show a couple of weeks ago. Brilliant, brilliant, funny guy. So yeah, it could be just like physically being playful. It could be dancing. It could be a pat on the butt. It could be kind of a squeeze that’s playful or teasing or. even mischievous as you kind of walk by them on your way to the kitchen or a brush on the thigh or just kind of a, you know, a little peck on the cheek while they’re on the phone.
You do that sometimes. You come by while I’m on a call if I don’t have the video on and I’ll feel you kiss like the back of my neck quietly. And I think this is so important because we aren’t as physically affectionate as I think a lot of us would like to be.
Brandon: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I’m not Uh, particularly, uh, [00:19:00] physically, uh, affectionate.
I, I like it. Like, I enjoy when you touch my shoulder, touch my hand, but I’ve noticed that I’m just, I don’t naturally gravitate and do that. I don’t reciprocate as well. So Do you
Dr. Jess: know what’s funny? What’s that? In your sleep. You’re always trying to get close to me. I know, I do. Like, even when you’re fast asleep, because you’re a heavy sleeper, if I roll to the other side of the bed, you inevitably follow me.
Sometimes I test it, because I’m always rolling. You know me, I’m always rolling around. I’m never It’s like
Brandon: sleeping with a starfish
Dr. Jess: over here, man. I’m never, I swear I’m never sleeping. It’s
Brandon: like sleeping with a hurricane. It could be a hurricane. It’s
Dr. Jess: like all over the bed. But the more relaxed you are, I notice the more affectionate you are, and I wonder if that’s more of your natural state, and if you hold back or something when you’re awake?
Yeah, I don’t
Brandon: know. I’ll have to ask my sleeping self.
Dr. Jess: So that’s, that’s one piece of it. And then the next one is to also be verbally playful. So that’s just simply joking around, you know, maybe being goofy, maybe messing with puns or sexual innuendo, um, [00:20:00] laughing at yourself. And it can also be kind of inside jokes.
So Brendan and I watch Brooklyn Nine Nine and everybody kind of has, you know, their show they watch. And I find that it always comes up in conversation as a joke. Oh my God. Look out
Brandon: the window right now. It’s a yellow crested warbler.
Dr. Jess: That’s the line you went for. You want a piggy?
Brandon: Well, the other day, I think our neighbors think we’re bananas.
Because you can see into our house from all angles. And I’m pretty sure you rode me like a donkey the other day. No, it was a pony. It was a pony, yeah. And it was not sexual at all. No, not at all. You were like, can I ride you? I’m like, no. Sure. Okay. And I was thinking after, I’m like, if people look in, they definitely think this is a sex game.
Dr. Jess: Well, only because you tried to buck me off.
Brandon: That was after, because I mean, eventually my knees
Dr. Jess: started to hurt. You barely even moved around. As soon as I got on you, you started to buck me off. So what did you want
Brandon: me to do? Run up and down the stairs with you on my
Dr. Jess: back? No, I just wanted you to crawl around the second floor.
Anyway. Maybe don’t [00:21:00] be like us. And then the other pieces Like another way to be playful is to simply make things into games. Like I noticed sometimes, you know, We threw
Brandon: a Frisbee in our living room the other day. And if you know our house, we have this chandelier that hangs. You’ve got crystal glasses, this piece of furniture.
And I’m like, I. We should not be doing this, but we continued. No, we didn’t
Dr. Jess: break a thing. We didn’t break anything that day. So yeah, playing games can, can be fun. Like, you know, the other thing is, I was outside with my friend the other day, just outside on the porch where we’re allowed to be. And you came out and you were trying to do this thing where you, I guess, squatted down on one leg.
Yeah, it’s a
Brandon: one legged squat, you know. It’s a pistol squat where you go all the way down to the
Dr. Jess: bottom. And then I wanted to do it too. So, and it became a competition. And we both hurt ourselves. Not me, I’m fine man, I’m young. Okay. I’m a young buck. You’re
Brandon: real young, you fell down.
Dr. Jess: That was not about age.
This is playful. Another option is to have, uh, for playfulness is just to have a routine that feels [00:22:00] fun. So another thing we’ve been doing lately, pulling a lot from our lives actually, for once we’ve been following. My own advice. Um, we do the spelling bee in the New York Times where you try and find the pangram and you try and make as many words possible and if I don’t get to genius level I start to lose my mind.
It’d be like 11
Brandon: o’clock at night. We cannot let the day finish without getting genius level. It’s like, I’m going
Dr. Jess: to bed. Sometimes we do the crossword together. So if there’s any sort of playfulness. We
Brandon: do not do the crossword. Brandon stands in and gives like five answers to a puzzle with a hundred clues.
But, uh, seriously, it’s kind of weird. I’m like, can I look at it? No, no, I gotta, I’m like, I’m just gonna let you do it.
Dr. Jess: I’m on a timer. I’m also a beginning of the week crossword. I love those because they’re a lot easier. They get harder as the
Brandon: week goes on. I do the Sesame Street crosswords.
Dr. Jess: Big Bird. Big Bird Oscar.
No, I actually really like when you do it with me because I find that a lot of the ones I can’t answer, you’re good at answering.
Brandon: I thought you were going to say, I like it when you do it [00:23:00] with me. I feel better about myself. No.
Dr. Jess: I feel smarter. Okay, it’s not true. You absolutely contribute to the crossword.
I just don’t let you hold the iPad. Thanks for the shout out. Okay, number 10. We’re moving on. I might have the numbers wrong. This is at least number 10. I think it’s 11. It’s simply about, uh, being more flirtatious. Uh, definitely, you know, thinking about just smiling when they walk in the room. Um, I often talk about greeting your partner like a dog, making a point of stopping what you’re doing, walking over to them, paying attention, wagging your tail.
That’s
Brandon: why I keep treats in my pocket. It’s
Dr. Jess: a little bumbelini. Hey! I would like
Brandon: a little bambalini. You probably would like me better if I had bambalinis in my pod.
Dr. Jess: I would. I would. So yeah, just um, that’s something I’ve been trying to do and I’m not always successful at it, but when you walk in the room, actually paying attention to you.
Another really important piece, I better start moving on these, is to look for opportunities to actually spend time apart. So if you want eroticism, oftentimes there needs to be some sort of [00:24:00] distance and mystery. And I think with folks who are working from home, we have to be even more mindful. of this than we ever were before, so that may be as simple as going for walks separately, which you do oftentimes.
Brandon: Yeah, I do. I enjoy my walks alone. It gives me a chance to also reset and just listen to some music, go for a 15, 20 minute, 30 minute walk, and it helps. I like spending that time on my own.
Dr. Jess: And I like that you’re gone. Yeah, I’m sure that you do. Definitely another one that I love. This is number 12 or 13 or 14.
We don’t know. It’s to stare at their best assets. So I always like to remind people that it’s okay to objectify your partner within the context of a loving, respectful relationship. You can honor them and respect them and love their butt. You can, you know, really respect their, I don’t know, intellect and sense of humor, and you can lust after them because love and animalistic lust don’t have to be mutually exclusive.
So [00:25:00] I, I, you know, for example, if your partner walks through the door, rather than asking about their day, Or just talking about your schedules. Stare at their best assets. Like, take a moment to soak in the sex appeal that first attracted you to them. Right? So stop what you’re doing. Focus on what you see in the moment.
And really look at your partner. Pick a body part you love. Focus on it like an animal in heat. Like I always say, look at them like a piece of meat. Or tofu. For the vegetarians. Whatever works for you. And really forget about all their annoying habits. And objectify them. Number 13, and I won’t, I won’t, um, belabor this point because we did a whole episode on it, and that’s on minimizing technofarence.
So create one space in your home that is tech free and pick one time every week or every day that is also tech free. This is a really big deal, and we spent a good amount of time a couple months ago exploring this one so you can go back and listen. Number 14 is to block quality time. So choose a block of time whether it’s [00:26:00] lunchtime during the day or an hour in the afternoon and during that quality time you are going to ban conversations that relate to the dark triad of topics.
So you’re not going to talk about work, kids, COVID. And if you don’t have kids, it’s like family or friends that you complain about. So instead, you’re going to have questions that you can pull up. I have a ton on our website, on previous podcasts, meaningful questions that kind of allow you to escape from reality even just for a few minutes.
So for example, if you could grab a drink with anyone from any period in history, whom would you choose and why? Who would you choose? Like any time in history?
Brandon: I, I would want to chat with, uh, Obama. I feel like he’d Which Obama? But I’d want him to talk openly and honestly. Like, I feel
Dr. Jess: like That’s a whole other conversation.
Brandon: Yeah. But that would be really interesting. For sure. And I’m sure there are a bunch of others that I could, I could come up with too. For [00:27:00] sure.
Dr. Jess: Yeah, I’d love to talk to him. I’d love to talk to her as well. Yeah. Uh, alright. Number 15. It involves giving compliments. So, and I want to talk about compliments for a moment.
So, a compliment is something that, you know, makes somebody feel good. So, and I often talk about this on social media, probably not often enough, that the intention of the compliment does not make it a compliment. It’s the outcome that makes it a compliment. Because sometimes people will say things to me that I, that don’t feel good for me, right?
Like, really, kind of sexual stuff. from strangers and they’ll say, Oh, I meant it as a compliment. And I remind them that a compliment is about the person who receives it, right? So you saying, like, nice tits to me as some stranger after I’ve just written what I think is a very thoughtful caption on an Instagram post is not a compliment to me.
It actually feels objectifying and degrading. So, yeah, and I want to talk about the levels of compliments. This is actually, this is for you, Brandon. Okay, let’s do it. No, [00:28:00] it’s for everyone. So, three levels. Pleasantry, admiration, and lustful or animalistic. So, pleasantry compliments, compliments of pleasantry are just, you know, things that you, you know, you could say to your child, a parent, you could say to a parent.
Nice shoes. Yeah, you’re so sweet, or you’re very smart, or. You know, you look handsome. Um, I guess that could also fall into the second category of admiration. So what do I really like about you? And can I get really specific? Like, I love your kneecaps in those jeans. I thought
Brandon: you were going to comment on how funny I am.
Dr. Jess: Anyhow, and then the third level of lustful or animalistic compliments is when we get really specific. Like, when you wear those jeans, I can’t keep my eyes off your ass. Or, you know, when you bend over like that, it makes me Think about just how hot you are. So think about, what, what are you laughing at? I thought you were going
Brandon: to say something.
I was like, when you bend over like that, it makes me think you need [00:29:00] new underwear.
Dr. Jess: Hang on, you did sit in chocolate the other day. Yep, I did. Right in the middle of your jeans, like the seam down the middle. And what was
Brandon: most interesting about this fact is that I did not clean it up for
Dr. Jess: three days. I know, and then the next day I see you in the same jeans where it looks like you pooped yourself.
Brandon: It’s funny to me, okay? It’s funny, I’m like, whatever.
Dr. Jess: This is what life has come to. Yep. But compliments really go a long way and we have research on the fact that compliments give a boost in confidence and mood to both the giver and receiver. So I think we can be a bit more specific and a bit more purposeful with our compliments.
Next is really about touching your partner when you’re not in the mood. And this is a big one. So one of the most. Meaningful times to be affectionate is when you’re actually not in the mood. So I’m not suggesting that you do anything against your will, but if you are feeling frustrated or angry or exhausted or even resentful or stressed, if you can just reach out and touch one another, [00:30:00] you’ll probably find that reconnecting just physically does something for the emotional connection as well.
And all of those kind of negative feelings that interfere with eroticism tend to subside. as your bodies respond to one another’s touch.
Brandon: I feel this way. I feel, again, just more connected when you reach out and touch my hand, touch my shoulders. So, yeah, I
Dr. Jess: would agree it works. Actually, sometimes during the podcast we do hold hands, eh?
Yeah. Next we have, play music in your bedroom because music, uh, Well, first of all, we know that people who listen to loud music apparently have more sex and music can shift your mood, it can kind of boost your confidence, it can help you to relax, and all of these things actually heighten the erotic connection.
So kind of thinking about what kind of music you want to hear. Do you want to feel powerful and then you want to listen to heavy bass apparently. If you want to feel like kind of loving and playful, they say to pick songs from your early days. of dating, if you [00:31:00] need to de stress or de compress, they say a more kind of mellow melody is good for you.
And if, if you’re familiar with the concept of core erotic feeling, which I’ve spoken about on the podcast before, and I’m going to do a whole new podcast on it because it needs an update, uh, but your core erotic feeling is the feeling that you require in order to get in the mood for sex. Think about what kind of music makes you feel.
That feeling. And you can play it in the bedroom or you can play it in the kitchen as you’re cleaning up. And then I have a game for the next one from, from my book, The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Swordplay. Not swordplay. The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay.
Brandon: I do like swordplay though, that’s a
Dr. Jess: nice, that’d be a great book.
I’m gonna opt right out of the swordplay, thank you very much. This one is called Netflix and Strip. And the book is co authored by Marla Renee Stewart, and I can’t actually remember whether she came up with this or me, so I want to make sure she gets credit too. But, you know, we Netflix and chill, but Netflix and strip is a little bit different.
You agree to [00:32:00] remove a piece of your partner’s clothing, or yours, whenever you hear a specific word when you’re watching television. And you can agree on a word together, Or you can kind of secretly have a word and they have to have figure out what that word is so I can have my own word and then you have to like kind of figure out what it is as it goes as it goes along.
That’s
Brandon: cool. That’s some fun while you’re watching Netflix.
Dr. Jess: I like that. And then another really important one, I’m pretty sure we went over 20, is using the 99 rule. And again, if you follow my work, I’ve mentioned this one before, but it’s so important to just ease tension. And it’s not that this is going to lead to sex, but it lays the groundwork so that sex becomes more possible.
So the 99 rule is simply. Thinking about whether issues or arguments or points of contention or stress will matter to you when you’re 99 years old. So if you’re fighting about something, if you’re feeling frustrated over a disagreement, uh, if you’re, you know, even stressed about work, [00:33:00] does this matter to me?
Is this something I’m even going to remember when I’m 99 years old? And I also think about that three pronged approach of does this affect my livelihood, like my security? Am I going to lose my house and end up on the street? Does it affect my health? and does it affect the love in my life? And if it doesn’t affect those, yeah, why would I want to let it adversely affect my health via unnecessary stress?
I’m glad
Brandon: that you brought up over thinking about the 99 rule during work because I do think about it during work. Especially when I’m getting really worked up or if something’s bothering me. When I remember That 99 rule, I’m like, yeah, this doesn’t really matter. It’s not that I’m not going to deal with it.
It’s not that I’m not going to fix the problem or whatever the issue is, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not worth me losing sleep or being upset, bringing that home to my partner or like to you. And, uh, yeah, I find it really, really helpful.
Dr. Jess: Yeah. And then last but not least, and I think this one’s so important is to set a little, little time aside.
[00:34:00] to daydream together once a week, to think about, you know, what you’re going to do when you retire or what you’re going to do when the travel restrictions have been lifted or what you, I don’t know, your dream vacation or what you would do if you won the lottery. Just kind of these hypotheticals that give you a sense of escapism.
Because when we think about eroticism, so it’s definitely about intimacy and connection and the physical. Uh, and it’s also about The playful and the curious and all of these things come together. So I don’t think, you know, daydreaming means that we’re going to hop in the sack immediately. Now, if we were to talk about fantasies, right, because I’ve kept these kind of non sexual, right?
Because not everybody wants to be sexual all the time. If we were to talk about fantasies. There’s a good chance it’ll lead to the bathroom. Definitely, I would agree. So if you’re in the mood for that, you could also talk about your, your sex dreams or anything you’ve seen that’s turned you on. But this escape from reality is really helpful, especially when you’re feeling stressed out, right?
Like, I remember when we were young. [00:35:00] Long, long time ago. We weren’t that old. No, but I remember like 20, right when we met, we would talk about what we would do if we won the lottery. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. And we would go deep down the rabbit hole as though it was real. I’d be like, no, no, no. But we can’t do that.
And then you’d almost forget that you weren’t having a real conversation. I
Brandon: remember being young and buying a ticket and I don’t even want to check the numbers. I just want to keep daydreaming. Like, it’s more fun to buy the ticket and daydream than it was to check the ticket because you knew you were going to be disappointed.
Right.
Dr. Jess: Right? So, yeah. So, as I kind of walk through these 20 ways to make daily interactions more erotic, obviously what I’m reminded of is that it’s way too much, right? You’re not going to do all of these things all of the time, but what you’re doing is you’re laying down so that you can make sex possible.
I
Brandon: also think if you push through and commit to them, like if you choose one or two or three, and you don’t expect fireworks the first day that you do them, but [00:36:00] you know that over the course of a week, you know, three, five, ten, twenty days, it’ll contribute and, you know, then, I also notice when you do these things for me, I want to reciprocate and I want to do them back for you.
So it builds this wonderful snowball effect where, you know, I’m happy to make you coffee because I know you’re going to, uh, you know, make me lunch or you’re going to, and I don’t expect it, but this wonderful back and forth of trying to do nice things for each
Dr. Jess: other. Out nice each other. Yeah, I guess it brings me to the question that I will inevitably receive because you’re saying, Oh, when I do something, you want to reciprocate.
What do you do when you have a partner who just takes and takes? Because there are people who are more givers. There are more people who are more matchers, and there are people who are more matchers. Yeah. And I don’t know if folks have read Adam Grant’s Give and Take, and it’s more focused on business, but obviously there’s a relational element in all areas of our lives.
So what do you do if you are doing these things and your partner isn’t
Brandon: [00:37:00] reciprocating? Take pleasure in the ability to do it. Know that one day if you couldn’t do it, you would be happy to do it. And I don’t think this means that you should take pleasure in doing every single thing for that person and, you know what I mean, and not expect anything at all in return.
But I always reminded myself that, you know, one day these things that I regard as chores or things that I wouldn’t necessarily want to do. I will long to do them.
Dr. Jess: You mean like if you couldn’t? If I couldn’t. You mean when I start traveling again?
Brandon: There will be days when you travel again where I’m like, geez, you know, I miss making you a coffee in the morning.
Dr. Jess: I think the other thing is if your partner isn’t, first of all, you’re not doing this for them to reciprocate, but if just this is more of a pattern in your relationship in which you are giving a lot and they’re taking and maybe not showing appreciation or not as open to doing things for you. I think, I think it’s an important conversation to have to let them know, you know, it would feel good.
I would feel really good if you could try this or when you do [00:38:00] this, it makes me feel really loved right back to that, you know, starting with the positive, trying to understand through an inquiry and then making your requests. So, um, I, again, I think so many of us say things like you never text me or you never call me instead of, Hey, you know, anytime I get a text from you, it just.
I’d love to see your name on my screen. I’m, I’m really of the belief that it’s okay to just say what you like, to say what you want and, but don’t be, you can’t, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say, oh, I want them to just know, right? That’s something I hear. They’re like, well, if I have to ask them, it doesn’t feel as good.
And I hear you, but sometimes people have no clue what you enjoy and what makes you feel loved and what makes you feel valued. And this notion that they have to read your mind. is inevitably going to lead to letdown. So definitely speak up. It
Brandon: reminds me of the, uh, the soulmate thing. Right? Where it’s like, well, if my soulmate, they should, everything should be easy and nothing.
And it’s like, well, but if you don’t have a conversation, they may just never know.
Dr. Jess: Right. And compatibility [00:39:00] isn’t about sameness. Yeah. Right? We are very, very different. Very different. So if I were to do for you the things that I want, You may not even like them. Yeah, and that’s why no one’s inherently a great partner or inherently a great lover Like we have to just keep communicating.
So we’ll leave it at that Hopefully you find one or two things from our list of I don’t know. I think it was 22 I’m gonna have to go count them and You can try something new or just probably something you’ve already done and you just needed the reminder like even as I go through this List, it’s a really good reminder to myself that I don’t have to do it all But there are some things where I could step it up a little so Thanks, babe, for chatting with me today.
Brandon: Thank you. And I want to take this opportunity to tell everyone to head over to lovehoney. com. Pick up something that vibrates, massages, sucks or blows in a great way, of course, or some lingerie to spice up your evening. Hey, listen, your morning, your afternoon, whatever works for you. Anytime is a good time and be sure to use the code.
DRJESS15, Dr. Jess [00:40:00] one five to save a few extra dollars. And please know that we really appreciate your support.
Dr. Jess: Folks, wherever you’re at
Outro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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How To Stop Bickering: 12 Strategies
3 nov 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Do you want to…
Bicker less and catch yourself before you start?Stay calm and empathetic during conflict?Feel more at ease and connected so – that you’re less inclined to fight?
Tune in for a discussion – of why we bicker and 12 simple strategies to reduce conflict in relationships as Jess and Brandon weigh in on this listener question: “We love each other madly. He’s really the love of my life, and we don’t seem to have any big, deep issues because we’re really aligned – on values, family, spirituality, and the core issues. But we bicker a lot. I don’t like the example we’re setting for our kids. How can we cut back on the daily bickering so our household is more at ease and we have more peace – because we both work from home.”
Before we dive in, thank you for being here. We appreciate you. If you’re shopping, please feel free to check out our affiliate links and use our discount code DRJESSVIP to save on your next toy, lingerie or lube order.
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TL;DR: Bickering Isn’t Always About the Dishwasher
You love each other, your values align, so why are you fighting about who put the kids to bed (again)?
Because bickering is often a symptom, not the problem.
Stress, burnout, unspoken needs, or tired communication habits can all show up as low-grade, repeat conflict.
In-the-moment strategies:
Try the “99 Rule”. Will this matter when you’re 99?
Change rooms, change tone, change outcomes.
Ask for what you need instead of assuming your partner should know.
Prevent it before it starts:
Know your triggers and name them.
Add physical affection (hello, 10-second hug).
Reduce outside stress so home doesn’t become the battlefield.
Connection is a buffer.
Whether it’s a cuddle, a laugh, or a pleasure-enhancing tool like the We-Vibe Nova 2 or Melt, investing in closeness makes conflict less sticky.
Want more insight into your patterns? Try our Core Erotic Feeling post or this 2-minute reset connection exercise.
Why Do We Bicker?
It’s not always about the dishwasher or who put the kids to bed. Bickering often masks unmet emotional needs, stress spillover, or deeper relational patterns. Sometimes it’s about rice. Sometimes it’s about power. Sometimes it’s a sign you’re both just worn down.
In this episode of the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast, we tackle the big question behind the little fights: “Why are we bickering all the time when we love each other so much?” And perhaps more importantly, how can we stop?
How to Stop Bickering (In the Moment)1. Be Quiet & Listen
It sounds simple. But listening (not to reply, not to defend) is one of the hardest relational skills. Picture the word “listen” scrolling across a ticker in your mind to help you stay present.
2. Try the 99 Rule
Ask: “Will I care about this when I’m 99?” If not, consider letting it go. Our energy is precious. Spend it on what matters.
3. Write Down What You Want
Use your phone to note what you’re actually seeking in the moment. Are you just stressed and looking for connection?
4. Take Some Responsibility
Even if you’re not ready to say it aloud, try to own your part internally. It shifts the dynamic almost instantly.
5. Change the Setting
Move. Walk. Change rooms. Sit on the floor. Shifting your physical space can shift your emotional tone too.
6. Laugh (But Kindly)
Humour (not sarcasm) can defuse tension. Shared laughter strengthens bonds and soothes conflict if it comes from a place of connection.
7. Use Conversation Openers
Trade “You always…” for “Can I ask something of you?” or “Would you consider…?” Words matter. Especially mid-bicker.
Preventing the Bickering Before It Starts8. Reduce Daily Annoyances
No, you’re not going to change each other completely, but being mindful of repeated irritants (ie. splashes in the bathroom) is a simple act of care.
9. Know Your (And Your Partner’s) Triggers
If you know you’re edgy the day before your period, name it. If your partner spirals when tech breaks, offer space. Anticipation is kindness.
10. Reduce Stress (So You’re Not Fighting the World at Home)
Our nervous systems have limits. If you’re constantly drained, even a sideways glance can start a war. Try offloading stress before it spills over.
11. Add Physical Affection
It’s not always about sex. Cuddling, hand-holding, or a 10-second hug reduces cortisol (research study here), increases trust, and builds a buffer against future conflict.
12. Prioritize Connection (and Yes, Sex Helps Too)
Sexual connection (when mutually desired) helps create security and shared joy. Tools like the We-Vibe Melt or the We-Vibe Nova 2 can deepen that connection — especially when stress has left you feeling distant.
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Want More?
If you find yourself fighting the same fight over and over, you may want to revisit your erotic patterns. Here’s our take on emotional seduction and your Core Erotic Feeling.
And what if you’re struggling with conflict outside the bedroom? A quick connection exercise can help reset your dynamic in 2 minutes flat.
Final Thoughts
If you’re bickering more than you’d like, you’re not broken, you’re just human. The conditions around us (parenting, capitalism, grind culture) aren’t built for emotional ease. But with a little curiosity, some compassion, and maybe a cuddle or two, you can shift the dynamic.
Want to learn more? Subscribe to our newsletter and listen to the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast for sex and relationship advice and conversations to help you feel closer, more confident, and more connected.

Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 340
How To Stop Bickering: 12 Strategies
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Let’s bicker.
[00:00:16] Brandon Ware: Let’s, what are we going to bicker over?
[00:00:18] Jess O’Reilly: You splashing all over the place in the bathroom. Like you’re some sort of a hippo in the tub.
[00:00:22] Brandon Ware: Well, I can’t help it because the sink is too small.
[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: Cause your head’s big.
[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: I got a big face. Well, you know what? You make a mess sometimes.
[00:00:31] Jess O’Reilly: We absolutely suck. We suck at this. We’re supposed to be talking about bickering today, but when you put us on the spot, listen, when we’re in the middle of a bicker, we got it.
[00:00:39] Brandon Ware: Things are real.
[00:00:40] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got it down, but to fake it seems really hard.
[00:00:43] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, we’re going to talk about how to stop bickering and having little daily arguments today. We have a question from, uh, from a listener, and this is a question I kind of get over and over. And over again, because life can be stressful and life can be busy. And I think that’s one of the big reasons we bicker.
[00:00:58] Jess O’Reilly: So before we dive into it, want to shout out our sponsors, Adam and Eve. com. They are offering 50 percent off almost any item plus free shipping, plus free handling, which is Brandon’s favorite part with code Dr. Jess 50. So check out Adam and Eve. com. Bildos, vibrators, butt plugs, other fun things that you can use in your body.
[00:01:19] Jess O’Reilly: Adam and Eve. com code. Dr. Jess 50. All right, let’s dive right into it.
[00:01:23] Brandon Ware: Let’s, are we going to continue bickering or is, is this where it stops?
[00:01:26] Jess O’Reilly: No, we’re going to start bickering.
[00:01:28] Brandon Ware: Let’s do it. Yeah. Amazing.
[00:01:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So we have this note, uh, there’s a bit of a preamble, but the bulk of it is we love each other madly.
[00:01:35] Jess O’Reilly: He’s really the love of my life. And we don’t seem to have any big deep issues because we’re totally aligned on values, family, spirituality, and all the core issues. But we bicker. A lot. I mean, nonstop. And I don’t like the example we’re setting for our kids. How can we cut back on the daily bickering so our household is more at ease and we have more peace because we both work from home?
[00:01:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:02:00] Yeah, I think those of us who have gone back to the workplace or, and aren’t kind of trapped in the home like most of the world was or much of the world was in a couple of years ago. we can look back and think about, Oh yeah, we were really in each other’s space. And um, you know, there is some research that suggests, and I know I’ve talked about this in the past, that small everyday arguments can help to stave off bigger fights by releasing tension and helping to cultivate understanding.
[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t mean every day as in daily. I mean, every day, like kind of just mundane stuff. And there’s, there’s so much research in this area. So one study found that couples who focus on resolving the smaller Solvable issues first fare better in the big picture. And that makes sense. It’s like, if I have a whole bunch of tasks on a list list, it feels good to cross one off the list and it’s that caravaning phenomenon, right?
[00:02:48] Jess O’Reilly: One good thing leads to another good thing and it makes you feel more capable. So with this study, what they found was that being able to differentiate between the issues that need to be solved at this time versus those that can be addressed at a later time is a really important. relational skill. And when you overcome or come to understanding on a small issue, it can help you to create a blueprint to think about how you’re going to better understand one another moving forward, right?
[00:03:14] Jess O’Reilly: So if we can solve this small issue in this way, maybe I learned to identify what makes you respond more positively in the face of conflict. I can apply that to the bigger, more complicated, more intense issues. And I think we do that with sort of subconscious, right? We’re always learning about how people respond, even if we don’t make a note of it.
[00:03:30] Jess O’Reilly: And so a little bickering. Could lead to improved understanding and more kind of team based problem solving, but conflict isn’t generally productive if it’s not deepening some sort of understanding or releasing some tension that helps you to feel more at ease and you’re asking for more ease. So if you’re just.
[00:03:48] Jess O’Reilly: snapping at each other about unloading the dishwasher or working late, or, you know, who’s doing, who put the kids to bed last night because you should put them to bed tonight. Thinking about our friends. You’re not really [00:04:00] conveying what you’re feeling. You’re not really expressing what you want. You’re not really sharing why you want it.
[00:04:04] Jess O’Reilly: You’re just going at each other. And we know that ongoing bickering can also take a toll. On your connection, on your nervous system and, and definitely on the family unit, as you’ve mentioned, cause you’re worried about the example you’re setting for your kids. And actually I think your capacity to show them that you can have conflict, that you can be imperfect and still be loving and still take care of one another and still come back together and resolve.
[00:04:28] Jess O’Reilly: Issues I think is, is really powerful. I don’t think many of us got to see that growing up.
[00:04:33] Brandon Ware: I was just going to say, I think that’s such a powerful lesson to convey to your children for those that have them, because I don’t feel, I don’t recall there being a lot of positive modeling in that respect growing up.
[00:04:44] Brandon Ware: And again, no one’s parents are perfect, but I think about those who I have seen try to communicate and to model that great behavior and subconsciously it’s creating, like you just said, that. Blueprint, like it would be so helpful. And also for me and our, when we get into these arguments, you’ll, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s a couple of things that I do.
[00:05:03] Jess O’Reilly: Are we getting there? I thought we were going to talk about throwing plates based on childhood memories.
[00:05:09] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Well, we could go down that, that road, but maybe we’ll gloss over that for now. But, but even just in identifying what it is you’re feeling, like you were saying, like communicating and for me, it’s highlighting that, you know what?
[00:05:20] Brandon Ware: I’m bickering with you right now. I say the words out loud or, you know, I’m arguing over this. And as soon as I do that, I feel like it dismantles some of the walls in our arguments, right? Where I’m like, Hey man, I feel like we’re bickering. I’m bickering a lot right now. So I’ve said it, it’s out in the open.
[00:05:37] Brandon Ware: What do I need to do? Now I can start asking myself, what do I need to do to stop? Because otherwise I’m just going to continue. And I feel like in our relationship, when one of us says something, the other one’s more receptive. And becomes more aware and it immediately changes the dynamic in that argument.
[00:05:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, you’re better at that than me. Me, I’m like, I am focused on a point and I wanna get this point through, and I’m still hung up on this point. And so I think what I was thinking now is that we could talk about [00:06:00] strategies to deal with bickering when it starts so that it doesn’t get outta control. So you can shut it down so you can maybe have a positive outcome as well as, and this is super important to me, the preventative pieces.
[00:06:11] Jess O’Reilly: Because I think if we’re going to talk about bickering, we want to look at the conditions in the relationship, the conditions in our household, the conditions in our lives, obviously you’re affected by conditions at work, that lay the groundwork to make you more likely to engage. So I thought we would start with, and we’ll start with you, what you do When we start bickering to either, I guess, calm the situation or end the bickering or deal with it in a constructive way.
[00:06:36] Jess O’Reilly: Like, what is it that you do when we bicker? And we, we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, we were prepping for something, we had a whole bunch of people and this is a story of our lives. A whole bunch of people coming to live in our house every week. There’s somebody, there’s like six new people here.
[00:06:48] Jess O’Reilly: Um, we do love it. Oh my gosh. Like it’s, it’s a dream. And at the same time, sometimes it can be a lot. And we. Can be snappy like so we were preparing for something a project that required us to be on the road and there were people coming into the entire home while we were gone and we were just a little snappy at each other and I can’t even remember what it’s about but I can remember what I felt and I’m wondering if you can recall So.
[00:07:14] Jess O’Reilly: What you might’ve done effectively or what you might do next time.
[00:07:18] Brandon Ware: Man, that particular instance, I don’t know if I necessarily engaged in a productive behavior, but I don’t find we bicker a lot, but that was an instance where I felt snappy. That was a really key word. And what I’ve done in the past is just shut up.
[00:07:31] Brandon Ware: Like I just, just shut up. Like when we’re going back and forth, why am I going to contribute to the bickering? Like what is that going to accomplish?
[00:07:37] Jess O’Reilly: So is that shut up and listen or shut up and withdraw?
[00:07:40] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Well, I think the goal is shut up and listen. Because it’s easy to shut up and withdraw and just not say anything and turn the cold shoulder.
[00:07:47] Brandon Ware: But as opposed to just saying, you know what, I’m going to listen. I’m thinking, I’m going to listen to what you have to say. That’s it. My inclination is tough snap back with something to fire back, but I’m just going to listen. That’s it.
[00:07:58] Jess O’Reilly: It’s such a hard thing in the heat of the [00:08:00] moment when you have something to say, and you’re just waiting for the other person to stop so that you can say what you have to say.
[00:08:06] Jess O’Reilly: So my. Hack, just for me, cause I’m a verbal visual person is I like to picture the words, listen, cause I do struggle to listen. I do struggle to not move on to the next thing. I do struggle to not get distracted. And so I actually picture like the letters L I S T E N. And I use this a lot. You’ve probably heard me mention it in, in other areas, like a ticker.
[00:08:26] Jess O’Reilly: So I think about the stock ticker and listen is coming across it so that I can tune into what you’re saying.
[00:08:31] Brandon Ware: I have to listen. So am I listening to Fireback? Or am I listening to understand? That’s my question. Am I actively listening to understand your position, understand how you’re feeling so that once you’ve expressed that to me, I can process it and then respond back as opposed to just listen to wait until you shut up or stop speaking so that I can fire back.
[00:08:52] Brandon Ware: As you said,
[00:08:53] Jess O’Reilly: it’s so hard for me to say shut up. Even the words, ’cause my mom, when I was little would always say, shut up is uncouth. I don’t even, I didn’t even know what that meant except for I knew I was not allowed to say shut up. I could say a lot of other things, but I wasn’t allowed to say. Yeah, it was not a nice word.
[00:09:05] Jess O’Reilly: Shut up. But I do think that that’s as our number one thing is to just. Be quiet and listen. Another tactic for me that I use to listen more actively, and again, I may have spoken about this before, is I, again, I picture the ticker of all of your words because I would rather read than listen audially any, any day.
[00:09:22] Jess O’Reilly: And not everybody wants to write everything down for me. So I actually picture the words as you’re saying them. It’s the same as like, you know, I watch all my television shows with subtitles. I, I have no clue what’s happening in a show if there’s no subtitles.
[00:09:34] Brandon Ware: And when there’s subtitles, all I do is read the subtitles.
[00:09:36] Brandon Ware: Then I don’t get to enjoy turning my brain off and just listening to what’s happening.
[00:09:40] Jess O’Reilly: Funny story, we had the opportunity to go watch a film the other day. So we have not been to, I haven’t been to a theater. I think the last movie I saw in a theater was The Great No, The Great Gatsby. When was that?
[00:09:52] Brandon Ware: The Great Gatsby,
[00:09:52] Jess O’Reilly: I a decade ago? I don’t know, that’s the last movie. I have no concept of time.
[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: No concept [00:10:00] of time. It’s a Caribbean thing, but we went to see past lives at a screening in a very, very small theater. Great movie. Yeah, but so it’s in English and Korean. But the subtitles for the Korean parts were in Spanish,
[00:10:16] Jess O’Reilly: but it was a great way to keep learning our Spanish. Right?
[00:10:19] Brandon Ware: Yeah, it was great.
[00:10:20] Jess O’Reilly: Good film.
[00:10:20] Brandon Ware: It was a great movie about going to a grocery store and buying lemons.
[00:10:25] Jess O’Reilly: My point is that I’m used to reading subtitles. I know some people don’t like subtitles, but I picture subtitles when you’re talking, when I find myself not wanting to listen.
[00:10:33] Jess O’Reilly: So that might sound really simple. We’re going to, you know. I think I have six more in this category and then we’ll get into the preventative. But number one is to try and just take a breath and listen, right? And I know that you’re really good at that better than me. My, my second one, and I’ve talked about this before, but I think it’s super important to bickering is the 99 rule.
[00:10:52] Jess O’Reilly: Like, can you stop? And again, I picture the numbers 99. I don’t know why. It’s just the way my brain works. Will I care about this when I’m 99 years old? Will I be proud of my behavior when I’m 99 years old? Will I be glad that I gave my energy to this? When I’m 99 years old, sometimes I think thinking to the future and thinking when we’re older, cause I don’t know anyone who’s 99, right?
[00:11:16] Jess O’Reilly: I know some people in their eighties, but I don’t know. I mean, I’ve talked to people who are in their nineties. Like there’s a lady in our building. Who’s she 92 or 96?
[00:11:24] Brandon Ware: 92. Yeah. One of the two. I don’t know,
[00:11:25] Jess O’Reilly: but I think about, well, first of all, we have research showing that people argue less as they get older in relationships and they spend more time apart and they don’t engage in every little issue.
[00:11:34] Jess O’Reilly: I also think there are some generational differences in terms of trying to make relationships perfect. And it might be in reaction to what we saw with our parents. And we don’t want to go through the same things, but I also think that we’re too hyper focused on making everything perfect in understanding every little thing in getting to the root source of.
[00:11:52] Jess O’Reilly: every little thing and not trying to get preachy. I think it’s different for every person, but I don’t believe that we need to explain and understand everything. I [00:12:00] also don’t think we need to make our partners always understand every little thing we feel. Like sometimes you’re just snappy and you stop and you say, sorry, and hopefully your partner’s like, yeah, I get it.
[00:12:10] Jess O’Reilly: You had a hard day. I’m over it. Right? Like they don’t keep digging in as to why what you said wasn’t fair. Like, yeah, I just said it. What I said wasn’t fair. I suck. Mea culpa. So I think that 99 rule, I use it. Everywhere, especially when I’m stressed out, especially when I can feel my nervous system, just feeling overwhelmed.
[00:12:27] Jess O’Reilly: I’m like, does this matter in the big scheme in the big picture? Is this going to matter to me? I agree. And I think it overall helps to just reduce conflict. Okay. Number three, and we’re going to get to the preventative stuff. There’s a whole bunch here to deal with conflict or kind of bickering in the heat of the moment.
[00:12:43] Jess O’Reilly: I wonder if you can stop and just think about. What you want, what’s the resolution you’re hoping for, right? And I often suggest that people write it down. That’s my own bias, but we also have research suggesting that writing about relationship troubles reduces conflict and aggression. And I know you and I discussed this earlier in another podcast, a study that suggested that writing about conflict from a neutral third party perspective can improve relationships and conflict outcomes.
[00:13:06] Jess O’Reilly: But this is a bit of a shortcut. Can you just like open a note on your phone and write down what you want? Because sometimes we’re arguing about absolutely nothing. Sometimes you find yourselves bickering and there’s no point except perhaps power or releasing stress and frustration that actually shouldn’t be directed at this person.
[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: So can you write down what’s the point?
[00:13:25] Brandon Ware: I thought that was such a great experience. And if you’d like to make fun of us, please go back and listen to the Popsicle incident podcast. Because when you write down from the perspective of a third person, for me, it really changed how I saw the event. Unfold and also helped me take more responsibility for my actions in that, in the popsicle incident.
[00:13:45] Jess O’Reilly: I forgot about that incident. And then even when you described it, I’m like, what was the popsicles? I remember
[00:13:50] Brandon Ware: that back. And I felt like such a loser, but it was a great experience.
[00:13:54] Jess O’Reilly: You really were a tool bag. I was just kidding.
[00:13:56] Brandon Ware: I was a dirt bag. I was a dirt bag. I was a very useful part of a [00:14:00] vacuum.
[00:14:00] Jess O’Reilly: I was just going to say that a dirt bag is a positive thing.
[00:14:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So you write down what you want. And then I do wonder. At the end of every argument, if you can just take note of the resolutions to to kind of take note of like, what’s my takeaway here? What are the resolutions? It’s easy to fight and forget about it. And that can be a really good thing because you don’t need to get hung up on it.
[00:14:21] Jess O’Reilly: But if you’re having the same fight over and over again, or if you’re bickering every day, it might be worth writing down. What you learn, what you want to do differently moving forward. And I’m not talking about an essay. I’m not even talking about a paragraph. It could be two words, like a reminder to yourself that maybe you were triggered and we’ll get to that in a moment as well.
[00:14:40] Jess O’Reilly: And then you just brought something up that is point number four, which is after you’ve bickered or preferably while you’re bickering. Please always take some responsibility. Like part of this is you, part of this is the way you engaged. Okay. Are there exceptions? Sure. But most of the time it does take two to tango.
[00:15:00] Jess O’Reilly: It’s a dynamic that you’ve created. It may be a very overwhelmingly positive dynamic, but there’s usually an underlying dynamic that exists that can lead to both harmony and conflict. And so this is a different topic altogether. We need to do one on dynamics, but we have a dynamic. Around decision making, right?
[00:15:18] Jess O’Reilly: Personally, not in business. Anything we do business together, I think is a little bit different, but personally, I make a lot of the decisions and you’re super easygoing. You’re like, go with the flow, whatever you want. And I actually love that. Cause I get what I want a lot of the time, but it also frustrates me and it does lead to conflict.
[00:15:35] Brandon Ware: And the real question is, am I really easygoing? Or am I playing into some of these existing patterns and grooves, right? Like people pleasing and the desire for validation, removing any responsibility, accountability. So when you start paying attention to these other elements, it starts to change how you feel too.
[00:15:53] Brandon Ware: Like how I feel about making decisions. I’m like, okay, well, you know what? I don’t want it to be this way. I make so many decisions when it comes to work. [00:16:00] And I know you do too, that there are times when I’m like, I just don’t want to make a decision. In this, like what we have for dinner or where we’re going tonight.
[00:16:05] Brandon Ware: But then the responsibility that that puts onto you on my partner. And I’m like, okay, you know what? I got to put on my, my, my big boy pants, my big person pants. And I got to start making some decisions here. And I got to start making, you know, being accountable and being prepared to disappoint or upset you or any of those things.
[00:16:19] Brandon Ware: And those are the negatives. I mean, it could turn out on the other way, right?
[00:16:21] Jess O’Reilly: And isn’t all bickering really about food in relationships? Or is that only for like Asians? Is that just because of me? I don’t feel, I feel like if you had a partner who was like you, you guys would just eat your salad out of a bag every day, salad and dry crackers.
[00:16:36] Brandon Ware: And I know what your favorite food is, so I can just make it every day. And it’s the easiest thing to make. It’s the easiest thing. It’s a bowl of rice. I know you love the smell of rice. I love it. So it’s like. I’m being an idiot when I’m like,
[00:16:45] Jess O’Reilly: if you didn’t know, if you don’t know that that’s true, you might think that he’s just, uh, being stereotypical, but actually it is my favorite.
[00:16:51] Jess O’Reilly: I love a bowl of plain white rice,
[00:16:54] Brandon Ware: the rice cooker on and you’re just like, Oh my gosh, the house smells so good.
[00:16:57] Jess O’Reilly: Do you know how long it took me to even admit that? Because they used to call me rice girl growing up. Cause I was Chinese. So like to even admit I’m having a moment here, but that that’s another conversation.
[00:17:06] Jess O’Reilly: Let’s go. Because I can’t get into that right now. Let’s go back to. Always take some responsibility and I brought up the dynamics because I think about like what we might bicker about like what we’re gonna have for dinner and then you’re like, I just want you to have what I want. And I’m like, okay, but in doing so it all falls on me.
[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: And so that’s why I started thinking about dynamics because sometimes it’s a little tiny thing and sometimes it’s an underlying issue. Or like you said, it’s some sort of a groove that we need to address, which is, I think, a bit of a different conversation. But can you take some responsibility? And here’s something for people like me who suck at this.
[00:17:38] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. No, even if I can’t admit to Brandon that I was wrong and that I, that I’m taking some responsibility, which is stage two. Okay. I’m still on stage one. Can I at least admit it to myself after, and can I maybe make a note of it? And can I maybe a day later, two days later, or 16 years later, go back and say like, okay, I, I take some [00:18:00] responsibility here.
[00:18:00] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And I mean, for me, I don’t, once the situation has been somewhat resolved. I’m not holding, I’m trying not to, and I don’t think I do hold on to that. I need you to come back and apologize or take responsibility or accountability. So when I have no ego, no, that may be the case, but it’s the bigger issue for me is I want to resolve whatever it is we’re arguing or bickering about.
[00:18:19] Brandon Ware: So I’m looking at a big picture level where I’m like. Let’s just find the root issue. Let’s resolve it. If you want to take accountability at that time for it, great. If you don’t, did we resolve it? Did I take responsibility for my part in it? Move on.
[00:18:33] Jess O’Reilly: I think the reason you may not care is because you don’t feel issues around power in this relationship.
[00:18:38] Jess O’Reilly: which is why the underlying issues actually do matter to bickering, right? And so that’s something we haven’t talked about. The fact that you may be having these little fights for many, many reasons, but one of the reasons may be that there are some underlying issues or dynamics you want to address.
[00:18:53] Brandon Ware: Mm hmm.
[00:18:54] Jess O’Reilly: Right? So like, for example, you may not care if I don’t admit I’m wrong in the moment because you’re, you don’t have issues around power and between the two of us, there aren’t issues around power. Right? Like it’s fairly egalitarian. Of course, nothing is 50 50, but we both feel pretty safe. And so if there is a deeper issue, then you definitely do want to look at that.
[00:19:12] Jess O’Reilly: If we go back to bickering, so we’ve covered four different approaches so far. Be quiet and listen. The 99 rule. Write down what you want. Write down your resolutions. And number four is take some responsibility. And we, we got to keep moving here. Number five, this is kind of a practical one. When the bickering or the tension starts, can you change something?
[00:19:31] Jess O’Reilly: Can you change positions? Can you change locations? We have a wealth of research. Showing how environment affects emotion and a lot of research in the area of creativity. And I think creativity is actually really important to conflict resolution or to just kind of calming the situation. So there’s a Stanford study that found that when you walk, it boosts creative inspiration and they looked at creative creativity levels while people were walking versus while they were seated and apparently creative output increased by an average of 60%.
[00:19:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:20:00] When walking and other studies have found that brain activity, absorption of information, positive emotional experience, all of these things are higher when you work out outdoors versus indoors. So these are just some examples. Like, can you resolve this over a walk? Can you move around? Can you, you know, I have some clients who will lie down, down on the floor.
[00:20:18] Jess O’Reilly: To deal with conflict so that they’re just, there’s this awareness that we’re engaging in this right now. So is there something you can change to release the tension?
[00:20:27] Brandon Ware: I think you also have to be receptive to your partner’s need. Like in a lot of ways, when we first incorporated this into some of our discussions, I think I assumed that you were being rude or dismissive or aloof to what it is that was happening.
[00:20:41] Brandon Ware: Because I like to move around. Because you like to move around. Yeah. And then we were able to resolve the conflict. And I found myself in other circumstances doing the same. You know what? I’m feeling nervous. I’m feeling anxious. Whatever it is. Get up. Move around. Do three squats. Just. Kind of skip on the skip on the spot for 10 seconds.
[00:20:57] Brandon Ware: And it really did change things for me. So it’s also being receptive and understanding to your partner might need to do this to help them assuage some of that or diminish some of that anxiety that they’re feeling.
[00:21:07] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And I think it can sound kind of hokey, right? Like, Oh, we need to change locations, but it does something like, again, like I’m citing just a couple of studies.
[00:21:15] Jess O’Reilly: There are hundreds, probably thousands that look at how environment affects how we feel next to number six. Joke around another area where the data and research is voluminous. So when we use positive or adaptive humor, so what that’s in opposition to say negative or maladaptive humor, that’s tends to be more aggressive.
[00:21:33] Jess O’Reilly: We know that relationship satisfaction is higher and actually want to do a whole podcast on humor in relationships because I think it’s so important
[00:21:39] Brandon Ware: and because your partner is so hilarious.
[00:21:45] Jess O’Reilly: You’ll also hear this thing tossed around about five to one, the ratio of positive to negative interaction. That theory from the Gottmans, the Gottmans have their own stuff going on, whether the evidence is peer reviewed or empirical. But to me, it’s [00:22:00] not just about positive to negative interactions. I think it’s about the capacity to have some levity, have some light, have some maybe laughter, maybe some joy in the face of tension.
[00:22:09] Jess O’Reilly: I think there’s real power. Not only is it disarming. We know that laughter comes from, it was an evolutionary holdover that signaled safety, but it’s also a matter of joy. And I think in the face of any distress, joy is exactly what we need. Right. And I think again, with humor, you have to use it mindfully and sparingly.
[00:22:29] Jess O’Reilly: You can’t, you know, if your partner’s upset about something, you can’t make fun of them, which would be more maladaptive humor. But if we can laugh at ourselves lightly, like, especially for me to laugh at myself is one thing for you to laugh at yourself as another. I think that we have the capacity to laugh at ourselves as a unit where we’re like, what is wrong with us?
[00:22:46] Jess O’Reilly: Like, why are we doing this?
[00:22:48] Brandon Ware: I’m going to go back to the popsicle incident. When we took a moment just to take a beat and think about it, I’m like, you know, that we’re getting into a massive argument over popsicles and, and I’m like, this is ridiculous and I don’t know that that really, you know, made us feel any better in that moment, but probably a few seconds later, I know I felt better thinking about it.
[00:23:05] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, no, I think we’re able to calm ourselves with humor again, though. The underpinnings of that are safety and understanding and commitment and trust. And also, I think somebody asked me the other day, how much of relationships is the work you do with yourself versus the work you do with your partner?
[00:23:20] Jess O’Reilly: And of course I gave two made up answers. Cause I don’t know the answer. Like, is it 80, 20? Is it 50, 50, but it is also about healing our own childhood wounds. Right? Like if I haven’t taken care of my stuff that has to do with trauma or triggers or just even those can be very strong words. Okay. So I might just say sensitivities and experiences because it may not apply to everybody.
[00:23:41] Jess O’Reilly: Then how am I going to feel safe with you? How am I going to know that even though we’re fighting, we’re going to be fine. Even though. I’m actually being ridiculous. Like I suck right now. He’s still going to love me. And so depending on, you know, what your early relationships looked like, depending on what early attachment look like, those can all affect how we [00:24:00] respond today.
[00:24:00] Jess O’Reilly: So it’s not just coupled work. It’s also individual work.
[00:24:03] Brandon Ware: I get really, I get bothered when people are like, Oh, relationships, if it’s meant to be, you’re soulmate and it’s easy and there’s no work. And, and I often think to myself, like, what in life do you do that doesn’t require some investment of effort?
[00:24:16] Brandon Ware: Like you, you want to stay healthy, you need to go to the gym or you need to be mindful of what you eat
[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: and you get to,
[00:24:21] Brandon Ware: and yes,
[00:24:22] Jess O’Reilly: like you get to go to the gym, you get to move your body like these are all,
[00:24:26] Brandon Ware: but if you, you want to excel at work, you’ve, you, you put in the effort, you put in the, you know, you put in the time you put in, you work at it, so I don’t know why the relationship has to be any different and not only the relationship, but all the, also the relationship that you have with yourself.
[00:24:38] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And again, I think there’s this continuum or. Okay. these shades we have to be aware of, that we don’t have to be perfect, we don’t have to fix everything, like, we live in this world, we do what we do, and we want to have ease every day, we’re fortunate and privileged to have joy every day, we’re fortunate to have safety, we’re fortunate to have love, we’re fortunate to have a roof over our head, and like, Brandon and I living in a In a city that’s mostly peaceful, like we’re very, very fortunate.
[00:25:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I want to move on so we can get to the preventative stuff. The last piece around dealing with it in the moment involves really understanding and differentiating between conversation killers and conversation openers, right? So that involves changing your language when you bicker. So it’s so easy to say things like you always, you never, I guess we’ll just do it myself.
[00:25:22] Jess O’Reilly: No one listens to me anyway. You’re going to do it your way, no matter what. And all of those generalizations. That end a conversation because nobody can argue with that. But if we can shift the language a little too, not in a condescending way, but I feel, I struggle with, can I ask something of you? I need to take a beat.
[00:25:39] Jess O’Reilly: Would you consider, how would you feel about, like if we can train ourselves to just have those words roll off our tongue more easily, we’re going to have fewer conversation killers, more openers. And we’re probably going to be met with, with more ease, with more grace, with more thoughtfulness.
[00:25:55] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I agree.
[00:25:57] Brandon Ware: I’m thinking, Oh, excuse me, everything that [00:26:00] you said in the first, that first round of conversation killers. I’m like, yeah, I’ve said all those,
[00:26:04] Jess O’Reilly: all of us.
[00:26:05] Brandon Ware: I’ve said, Oh, for sure. I have,
[00:26:06] Jess O’Reilly: but don’t you think less now than 20 years ago, 10 years ago, we, we met this couple and it’s funny. Um, I was messaging with him.
[00:26:14] Jess O’Reilly: I can say his first name, how the other day on LinkedIn. And I remember they were a lot older than us. Yep. And I remember him saying something along the lines of, do you remember what it was? Like you, you work at it in your twenties and thirties so that you can thrive in your forties and fifties. Is that what he said?
[00:26:28] Brandon Ware: It was, you earn, learn in your learning twenties, you learn thirties, you earn something like that. Or maybe it was thirties.
[00:26:34] Jess O’Reilly: So you were talking to him about business. I think I was talking about relationships and I definitely feel, and of course. Age doesn’t matter because it’s about the stage of your relationship.
[00:26:41] Jess O’Reilly: But again, data shows that couples argue less as time goes on. They’re not engaging in conflict as much. Hopefully it’s because they haven’t given up. But I think it’s because we learn to understand ourselves and one another. And I think that when I, when we start talking about conversation killers versus conversation openers, I’m thinking that the biggest hindrance To making this shift is time and a lack thereof because everything feels shorthand, right?
[00:27:05] Jess O’Reilly: We move so quickly. We read the one pagers. We don’t slow down to make time for what matters, which is, you know, relationships, health. And for a lot of us, like the work we’re doing for many of us. Centered around justice, for example. And so if we don’t make time to really engage and we’re busy and we’re in the kitchen and I can just picture like, you know, one of you is cooking, one of you is helping the kids with homework and there’s so much to do, you probably are still getting emails in the evening.
[00:27:31] Jess O’Reilly: And so you don’t really have the time to say like, you know. How would you feel about doing it this way or sitting down and having this conversation? Instead, we say things like, whatever, you’re going to do what you want anyway. Right. And I get that. Like we are, we all have been there. We all will be there.
[00:27:45] Jess O’Reilly: We never moved fully past it, but it really does speak to the value and the challenge of time. And that takes us back for me or takes us next to the preventative piece. Because I think that part of reducing bickering involves creating [00:28:00] the conditions to prevent it from arising. Or at least reduce its occurrence.
[00:28:04] Jess O’Reilly: Like you’re not going to eliminate it all together. And I think about some of like, I, when we were talking about this, before we got started, we were saying that bickering isn’t actually something we do a lot of.
[00:28:14] Brandon Ware: I would agree. We’ve get into arguments and we have
[00:28:16] Jess O’Reilly: deep, heavy arguments, popsicles, ice cream, rice, food.
[00:28:24] Jess O’Reilly: But what I was going to say is I think part of why we maybe don’t bicker as much, part of it is that I don’t think we have particularly stressful lives. We’re very, very lucky in that respect. Agreed. Okay. So that is privilege. And then another part of it is some of the work that we’ve done, the effort, the foundation we’ve built that’s really preventative.
[00:28:41] Jess O’Reilly: And so I was thinking about a number of preventative approaches to stop bickering. So to reduce annoyances. To be more physically affectionate, to have sex, to reduce your own stressors, to know your triggers, and to know your partner’s triggers. So that’s sort of the summary of what I have in mind. But when I think about the first one, reducing annoyances, like one thing I think about is, okay, so if something I do annoys you, it’s probably going to lead to more.
[00:29:06] Jess O’Reilly: Bickering. And so I think that that’s something that I see couples who are happy together do is try and annoy their partner less. Like I’m a very annoying person. And so I have to be mindful of like, what might annoy you? Are you going to tell me what I do to you?
[00:29:23] Brandon Ware: I know I joked around about it earlier, which is why you asked me today, but I didn’t, I don’t find like you annoy me very much.
[00:29:27] Brandon Ware: There are things that again, we argue and we fight, but I don’t feel annoyed by you. Very much.
[00:29:33] Jess O’Reilly: So I feel like if you, if something you do annoys me. Is this leading up to my annoyances? Yeah, I have a list, guys. I have a big list. Sorry, 42 items. No, I actually think I speak up about it. Now my annoyances aren’t things that I get mad about.
[00:29:45] Jess O’Reilly: So I joked about you being a splashy animal in the tub. Like I don’t know what he does in the bathroom, guys.
[00:29:50] Brandon Ware: We don’t have a tub. It’s the sink and I’m shaving. And the sink is like the size of a saucer. .
[00:29:56] Jess O’Reilly: A saucer.
[00:29:57] Brandon Ware: Yes. A
[00:29:58] Jess O’Reilly: for giant, maybe
[00:29:59] Brandon Ware: for [00:30:00] tea, but it’s, it’s
[00:30:01] Jess O’Reilly: it’s not the size of a tea saucer.
[00:30:02] Brandon Ware: It’s a small sink. Man. I’m gonna splash. I’m a splashy dude.
[00:30:06] Jess O’Reilly: I go into the bathroom. And it looks like he got into the sink and splashed around. And then he went into the shower and he took cups of water and threw them on the ceiling. That’s what it looks like. And so,
[00:30:17] Brandon Ware: but hold on, what did you add? What did I say to you? So immediately I, I checked my people pleasing.
[00:30:22] Brandon Ware: I’m like, no man. I’m like, I clean. I actually do. I feel like I clean up after, but there was a spot.
[00:30:27] Jess O’Reilly: Do you rinse away your
[00:30:28] Brandon Ware: water with water? I rinse it away with water, yeah. So you get the hose out, but. I do wipe these down, but clearly, uh, my surface looking,
[00:30:35] Jess O’Reilly: I missed a few spots. Okay. So it’s, well, my point though is because it’s something, so it doesn’t generally annoy me, but if my patience is running thin from other things, if I’m in a mood, I’ll notice that something that doesn’t bother me 49 times will bother me on the 50th time.
[00:30:51] Jess O’Reilly: So I mentioned to you the other day, I’m like, what are you doing here? Like, I don’t think I was really annoyed. And so what did you do? You got yourself a cloth to clean up. And you, you, he actually moved into the other bathroom that has a bigger sink.
[00:31:02] Brandon Ware: So what did you do? I moved the bathroom.
[00:31:05] Jess O’Reilly: It’s like four steps away.
[00:31:06] Jess O’Reilly: Anyhow, I do think that reducing annoyances, like if you can just be aware, maybe this is the same as triggers, but little things I think are important to, to just kind of be thoughtful about. How you, how you move about the day with your partner.
[00:31:21] Brandon Ware: But also rather than snapping back at you, I felt like I tried to listen.
[00:31:25] Brandon Ware: And then I also felt like I tried to come up with a solution, which was I’m going to grab a cloth and I’ll just keep it tucked away. And then after I’m finished splish splashing around, I’m a wipe it down. Problem solved. Do you know what I mean? It’s like, I’m receptive to what it is you’re saying. And I’m going to find a solution.
[00:31:39] Brandon Ware: Let’s move forward.
[00:31:40] Jess O’Reilly: Well, this sort of ties in with the last item on my list. So I’m going to skip there another preventative item, which is really about knowing your partner’s triggers. And I was thinking about, you use the word pivoting around people and you don’t want to be afraid of people or walking on eggshells, but I have observed that staying out of one [00:32:00] another’s way.
[00:32:01] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So, um, in the, in the trigger, in the more serious ways, how would, how do I say this? Staying out of each other’s way to know what the little things that really upset your partner is an important part of living together. And so I saw this with a couple we were traveling with. I don’t know if I talked about this last week, but I’ve been thinking about it.
[00:32:18] Jess O’Reilly: I think so. Something happened that was a little bit, not stressful, but annoying. Um, it had to do with The power going out where we were saying, and while he was working on fixing it, she said like, let’s stay out of his way. Cause this isn’t something that they keep basically stay out of his way. Cause this, I guess this is just something that he likes to do on his own.
[00:32:37] Jess O’Reilly: And I noticed like they’re a happily married couple. They’ve been together a long time. They have kids, they have a nice life. They seem to really love each other and get along really well. And I thought like, Oh, that’s really good that she’s just being mindful of the things that will maybe set him off.
[00:32:50] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying it would set him off. I actually don’t know. Cause I don’t. know them that well, but I do think that that’s something we do is we know the things that are here. It is that our partners are sensitive about. Sorry, it took me a while to find my language there, but if we know there’s something that they’re sensitive about, if we know that there’s something that might annoy them, if we know that there’s something that when they’re dealing with this, something they’re extra stressed, can we.
[00:33:13] Jess O’Reilly: Stay out of their way or do something to make it easier. And I also thinking, I think knowing when your partner wants you to help versus move away, get out of the way is so important. And I think maybe some people wouldn’t like that. Like the idea of staying out of your partner’s way might be something negative.
[00:33:29] Jess O’Reilly: But for me, and I’m not the arbiter of truth, but for me, I think it’s important to know, like I know. When you’re upset about certain things, you don’t want me to try and help.
[00:33:40] Brandon Ware: No, sometimes I feel like a, an emotional wide receiver, do you know? And in that you talked about pivoting and sometimes there’s going to be contact.
[00:33:47] Brandon Ware: So first of all, I know what the goal is. I want to get a touchdown. I want to solve the problem, whatever it is. Sometimes I’m going to have to do a 360 spin to avoid an issue. Sometimes I’m going to hit it head on. Sometimes there’s gonna be a little bit of contact, but at the end of the day, trying to get into that end zone and resolve the [00:34:00] problem.
[00:34:00] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just going to intercept. Sorry. I’m just going to intercept. You you using all these football analogies? I’m so fast. Did you just like come up with all football.
[00:34:07] Brandon Ware: I never even played football. No. But I was just thinking about it when you talked about pivoting and I’m like, sometimes there’s contact and sometimes you get a little stuck.
[00:34:15] Brandon Ware: But ultimately, if you know, if you are able to run downfield and catch that pass, you know, you’re going to have to do some pivoting. You’re going to hurdle, you know. But you’re working towards, you know, getting to the end zone.
[00:34:26] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:34:26] Brandon Ware: So we’re sharing a three point dunk in the end zone.
[00:34:30] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just gonna get a safety.
[00:34:32] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just gonna take a seat. That’s all I’m taking. All right. So yeah, I think that piece is important to know what sets your partner off to know their sensitivities. Maybe trigger isn’t a word that everybody likes, but I also think knowing your. Own is important, right? So that’s another one here. So I know that, cause if we go back to bickering, I’m not particularly bickery, but there is a certain time of the month where I’m more bickery.
[00:34:52] Jess O’Reilly: Is that a word? Yeah, I would agree. I have a stronger proclivity toward bickering. So I have to be aware when certain things are coming on. Like I know when my period is coming on, there’s like a 48 hour period. Where everything annoys me, where yes, if that splashiness is happening in the bathroom, I’ll be like, what the, why would he do this?
[00:35:09] Jess O’Reilly: Why would he leave this water? And then the other 28 days of the month, I don’t care. I also know sometimes there are people I have to deal with not very often who can set me off and who put me on edge and put you on edge. And so to be aware of that ahead of time can be really helpful because we can stop and take a moment to.
[00:35:24] Jess O’Reilly: Find joy. We can stop and take a moment to breathe. We can stop and take a moment to reconnect. We can stop and take a moment to say like, you know what, what we are fighting about may not be about this. It may be about this other thing that we’re worried about. And so I think we can have fewer, you know, I use the word bickering, conflict, fights, whatever the word is.
[00:35:42] Jess O’Reilly: If we’re kind of aware of what those triggers and sensitivity sensitivities are, and if we prepare for them.
[00:35:47] Brandon Ware: And as your partner, I know that because we’ve had these conversations about those, you know, 48 hours where you feel a little bit more, um, you know, you’ve got some, the blood’s flowing. What’s the word I’m looking for.
[00:35:58] Brandon Ware: Right. But. I [00:36:00] also try to work around you. I’m like, okay, I know that this is how you’re feeling right now. So I’m going to be a little bit more understanding. I’m going to be a little bit more giving. I’m going to be a little bit more affectionate with you. There’s, there’s two, two, two sides here.
[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: I love that.
[00:36:12] Jess O’Reilly: And it takes me to my next point. Cause we need to move this along, um, which is preventative is involves being more physically affectionate. This is another. area of research that shows both the benefits and the fact that we all say we’re laughing, laughing, I wish, lacking in physical affection, right? So we know that like when you’re physically affection, there’s a release of feel good hormones, right?
[00:36:33] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got oxytocin that boosts our mood. We’ve got a decrease in cortisol, which helps to, you know, cortisol, of course, is considered a stress hormone. We know that When you’re close to your partner physically, that the benefits aren’t just fleeting. So we know that, you know, with physical affection, we experience less stress, happier mood, not just in that moment, but the following day, we know that there are positive heart health benefits.
[00:36:55] Jess O’Reilly: Partners who receive more hugs tend to have lower blood pressure. We know that love and happiness are higher. We know that attraction increases when you express physical. affection. So when you express affection, physical affection, folks are more likely to see you as likable and trustworthy and composed.
[00:37:12] Jess O’Reilly: We know that actually relationship harmony is higher and conflict is lower when physical affection is high. Like there was a study of college students that found that those who spend more time cuddling are better equipped to resolve conflict. And when we talk about physical affection, we’re not talking about sex.
[00:37:30] Jess O’Reilly: Right? So I think it’s something like 83 percent of close physical affection in bed, even snuggles, don’t result in sexual activity for most couples. So it’s not just about getting to sex, but after physical affection, because I think you can, you can admit that, that like we feel more calm when we’re affectionate with each other.
[00:37:47] Jess O’Reilly: No,
[00:37:48] Brandon Ware: I definitely do.
[00:37:49] Jess O’Reilly: I hate being apart from you for that reason.
[00:37:51] Brandon Ware: Yeah, and I mean, it just feels good to listen to kind of tune in and to feel you because, you know, I always think about things like things change, right? Anything can change at any [00:38:00] given moment. So I’m always thinking I appreciate the opportunity to touch you, to feel you or, and to be with you.
[00:38:06] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely. And then there is sex. That’s another point, right? So if you invest in your sex life, you’re investing in your relationship. So I guess the bottom line is if you want to reduce. Some of these little conflicts or some of the bickering just want to make sure you’re investing in the relationship overall and sex is a part of that.
[00:38:23] Jess O’Reilly: And there is some research around sexual frequency and sexual satisfaction tied to relational satisfaction. And then finally, I think another really important preventative piece, I think this is so, so important and it ties in with everything we’ve been talking about. If you want to reduce bickering and conflict in relationships, you have to reduce your own stressors because patience, tolerance.
[00:38:45] Jess O’Reilly: Empathy, all of these are like muscles and they tire out. If you arrive at your relationship or your home, drain. It makes sense that you’re more on edge and it primes you for conflict. And of course we can’t eliminate all stress because you got to go to work and that can be stressful. You have to deal with people and that can be stressful.
[00:39:05] Jess O’Reilly: But what Can you reduce? And I would like to do a podcast if I can find the right expert on burnout. And I have this strategy that I’ve been utilizing for burnout for me that has really worked that I perhaps it takes a little bit to explain. So it’s shared in a future podcast. But what can you do to reduce your own stressors?
[00:39:23] Jess O’Reilly: Because oftentimes the people that you’re taking your stress out on the people in your household, Um, are not the source, not the primary source of your stress, but it can feel like they are. It’s easy to be like, well, it’s because he left splashes in the bathroom that I’m feeling this way when in fact it’s 16 other things.
[00:39:41] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that’s a really important piece to consider. And again, you know, in doing so in listening to this and considering some of these options, not doing them all right. I think there’s about. 13 on this list or 14 on this list, but thinking about one change you can make today to reduce bickering and to just bring more harmony into your life, whether it’s with a [00:40:00] partner, whether it’s with family members, and whether it’s with kids, you’re doing this huge service to people around you by modeling that behavior because most of us didn’t get to grow up with that modeled behavior.
[00:40:09] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s why I think, man, kids today are so amazing because, and not that our parents weren’t great. Like I have the greatest. Love and appreciation for all three of my parents, deep, deep appreciation. And I see the next generation of parents, like people who are about a little bit older than us. I’m seeing their kids kind of come of age, like 18, 19, 20, and how incredible they are at communicating, at navigating relationships, at leading.
[00:40:30] Jess O’Reilly: Empathy at seeing and understanding perspectives that are not their lived experience. And I think they’re going to change the world. And I think, listen, I always say, and it’s not marketing. Like I do think we can improve the world one relationship at a time. And that’s what we’re doing here. And that’s what you’re doing because.
[00:40:45] Jess O’Reilly: You’re investing, you’re listening, and I think that’s really amazing. Agreed. Not you, Brandon. I’m talking to you, listener. You’re fine too. Sorry, I’m great. All right, cool. All right. Brandon has a call, so we got to go. Let’s do it. All right. Thanks so much, folks, for listening. If you’re in the mood for pleasure, check out adamandeve.
[00:41:01] Jess O’Reilly: com. Use code DRJESS50 to save 50 percent off almost any single item, plus free shipping and rush handling. Have a great one.
[00:41:18] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Candid Conversations: Managing the ‘Work Spouse’ and Therapy Avoidance
27 okt 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
In this Q&A, Jess and Brandon weigh in on listener queries related to “work spouses”, dealing with a partner who refuses to go to therapy and “love tattoos”:
“My husband has a coworker who introduced herself to me as his work wife. I didn’t even know how to respond. When I talked to him about it, he said she was just kidding around. I think it’s inappropriate. He says it’s no big deal. Who is right?”
“What do you do if your partner refuses; to go to therapy – but the relationship is on the rocks? Asking for a friend.”
“I just turned 18, and I’ve been dating a guy – who is a few years older than me. He comes from money, so hw’s shown me a lot of things I’ve never seen before. It has only been a few months, and he wants me to get a matching tattoo. What should I do?”
Check out AdamAndEve.com and use code DRJESS50 to save 50% off almost any one item with FREE shipping.
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here.

Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 339
Candid Conversations: Managing the ‘Work Spouse’ and Therapy Avoidance
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your cohost, Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey, how are you doing?
[00:00:22] Jess O’Reilly: I’m good. I can see that you’re putting on a brave face. I am putting on a brave face.
[00:00:26] Jess O’Reilly: You know how I know you’re having a date.
[00:00:29] Brandon Ware: How? What’s my tell? What’s my tell? Is it Terry’s?
[00:00:33] Jess O’Reilly: It’s your, it’s your left peck. It’s my left peck. It’s your left peck. It’s that I saw the app from your ring on your phone and your stress was way up at the top.
[00:00:42] Brandon Ware: So I have an Aura ring and it monitors all your vitals and they just released a stress feature.
[00:00:48] Brandon Ware: I’m stressed out today.
[00:00:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, left peck going hard.
[00:00:51] Brandon Ware: I feel like some people need to talk it out with somebody other than me.
[00:00:55] Jess O’Reilly: So I think so many of us run into this. I’m not going to obviously speak specifically about your situation. I know what’s going on, but I think that sometimes you have people in your lives.
[00:01:05] Jess O’Reilly: Whether they be friends, or clients, or co workers, or just people in your family, who, they have their own anxiety, and they try and attenuate that anxiety through you. And I don’t mean they’re dumping their problems on you, but they may be actually, in your case, they are actually saying, here are my problems, fix them, even though you can’t.
[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: But, They expect you to kind of jump and dance and twist and twirl around their anxiety as though their urgency is your emergency.
[00:01:36] Brandon Ware: Ooh, that’s a good one. I have heard that before, but their urgency is my emergency. Yes.
[00:01:40] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s Luna who I first heard say that.
[00:01:42] Brandon Ware: Was that Luna? Luna Matadas?
[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: It rhymes, you know.
[00:01:44] Brandon Ware: It rhymes. I love that. She’s a rhymer. She’s a plumber. Uh, I, I would agree with that wholeheartedly, and I think once you start paying attention to that, it’s easier for me to realize that, Hey, listen, this isn’t my problem. This is your problem. And I want to support you. I’m going to be compassionate in [00:02:00] understanding maybe the situation that you’re going through, but also taking a step back and saying, you know what, though, at the end of the day, this isn’t my problem.
[00:02:05] Brandon Ware: This is your problem.
[00:02:06] Jess O’Reilly: Well, that’s the hard thing when you’re a natural people pleaser. So I learned something about myself this week, which is that a lot of my behavior. That involves not setting any boundaries for myself or pretending to set them and letting them all be violated has to do with anxiety and impulsivity where I feel like, Oh, this person’s upset.
[00:02:23] Jess O’Reilly: I better fix it for them.
[00:02:25] Brandon Ware: Agreed. And do you also find that that impulsivity, the immediate need to respond? It’s not, not only are you just impulsive in nature, but it’s like in your immediate need to respond to that inquiry.
[00:02:36] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. It’s like life is like an inbox and email inbox. And I just want to clear it and clear it and clear it as fast as I can.
[00:02:41] Jess O’Reilly: And one, one thing that I’ve learned.
[00:02:43] Brandon Ware: Hold up. Hold up, hold up. You want to clear that inbox? How many unread messages do you have in your email inbox? I’m doing my best. No, no, no. I want to know. Is it, is it over a hundred? Okay, yes, but… Is it, is it over a thousand? Okay, yes. Is it over two thousand?
[00:02:58] Jess O’Reilly: It is not over two thousand five hundred thirty nine.
[00:03:02] Jess O’Reilly: Phew. No, but can I just tell you why that is? Because you don’t actually see my email. You just see the icon. Rain your logic down. Oh my gosh, we have no focus here. It’s because an old inbox got imported in. It’s not like there’s 2000 messages I need to get to. There are probably like five messages I need to get to.
[00:03:21] Jess O’Reilly: I swear. I don’t, I don’t let my inbox pile up. I like to clean it out.
[00:03:25] Brandon Ware: I’m just playing with you. I know that you do. And I know that that was reason. Did you? I didn’t know that was the exact reason, but I figured that there must have been a reason. Even for me, I have 50, well actually I have 27 unread emails.
[00:03:36] Brandon Ware: And I definitely want to get through them all. And when I feel like if I get through them, I’ve accomplished something. But that’s not the case because that email inbox just continues to grow every day. But I will say that I love me a snooze button. Do you use the snooze button?
[00:03:49] Jess O’Reilly: No.
[00:03:50] Brandon Ware: Ooh, you gotta learn to use the snooze.
[00:03:52] Jess O’Reilly: Where you snooze people’s emails?
[00:03:53] Brandon Ware: You just snooze it. It’s just, it’s a reminder setting. I mean, I use a CRM, a database management system, to help me, you know, stay organized, but at the [00:04:00] same time, that snooze button? Love it.
[00:04:02] Jess O’Reilly: So what does it do? Like, the email comes back after a certain amount of time?
[00:04:05] Brandon Ware: Yeah, it’ll just show back up.
[00:04:07] Brandon Ware: Uh, in your email inbox. Yeah, it’s great. So you can set the snooze reminder. Is that through Gmail. Later in the day, a week later, a month later. It’s amazing. I love it.
[00:04:14] Jess O’Reilly: March 2026? Yeah. That’s when I want to get to your email.
[00:04:16] Brandon Ware: I’ll snooze you to, to never.
[00:04:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Okay, we totally got off track. Cause I, I had asked you about the stress because I wanted to ask you about stress management.
[00:04:25] Jess O’Reilly: And then I veered into my own stuff around impulsivity. I’m going to tell you my one lesson that I’m kind of focused on this week. And that is to slow down before I respond. Slow down before I respond to work emails, to personal messages, to requests from family, to requests from friends, just to take a breath.
[00:04:42] Jess O’Reilly: And I have Carla, my therapist, in my head, who’s like, why do you have to do everything right away? Why do you, and as I said, it’s because I want that inbox empty other than the 200, 500, 2, 538 emails that are okay on red. So, I’m curious about you and stress management, because I see you smiling there. The weird smile?
[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: So, I know that you’re having a stressful afternoon. How are you coping? You took your shirt off.
[00:05:05] Brandon Ware: I did take my shirt off to attenuate some of the sweat that had been, uh, you know, accumulating.
[00:05:12] Jess O’Reilly: Will we get more listens if… We put video because you’re doing this topless.
[00:05:16] Brandon Ware: I am wearing a tank top and I don’t know if it’s the sexiest of tank tops But hey,
[00:05:20] Jess O’Reilly: it’s an undershirt as we say in jamaica.
[00:05:22] Jess O’Reilly: It’s a marina.
[00:05:22] Brandon Ware: It’s a marina What am I doing to attenuate my stress? I’m not doing much. That’s the truth I have a number of strategies that I normally employ right now I think i’m just i’m kind of ruminating in the stress, but you said something that was really great Which was take a beat before you reply back and I have found myself trying to do that My natural tendencies to fire back right away.
[00:05:46] Brandon Ware: I have quick thumbs Even I open my mouth sometimes and I think after why didn’t I just wait like five minutes? And I have tried to employ that. I know you probably haven’t noticed this but even in conversation. I [00:06:00] have thought to myself I don’t need to chime in right now. I need to wait. I need to focus and actively listen to what you’re saying and just Hold my commentary until you’re done.
[00:06:09] Brandon Ware: Whatever it is you’re saying and that’s helped given me a bit of clarity Even just in formulating my thoughts because I get to listen and really pay attention to you So i’m not doing anything right now to attenuate my stress I had thought about going and doing some physical activity. I did think about going to the gym, but I didn’t think I had enough time.
[00:06:28] Brandon Ware: You have time tonight. I have time later, definitely. But that was something that crossed my mind. And then, I mean, I have a number of other strategies that I can employ. I just didn’t. I mean, breathing. I’ve noticed that I pay attention to my physical response. I know that my physiological response through therapy and with assistance from my therapist been, you know, really focusing in on how I feel.
[00:06:47] Brandon Ware: Physically feel and noticing those feelings
[00:06:49] Jess O’Reilly: and if you don’t notice the ring will notice and if I don’t off the charts
[00:06:53] Brandon Ware: I love that data I really do appreciate because I feel like I can marry the psychological components with the physiological components and I like To understand I like to understand number one and I also like to think that I might be able to control some of that So there’s a physical physical activity checking in, you know, breathing is a big one for me
[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: What about your top and your tail?
[00:07:13] Jess O’Reilly: My top and my tail? You’re supposed to check in with your head and your tail. Oh, yeah. As your butthole trunk. Skunk to trunk. No, that’s something different. That’s the perineum. That’s from the butt to the penis.
[00:07:24] Brandon Ware: I thought the trunk was maybe, you know, like your neck.
[00:07:27] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, I didn’t know that. No, I’m pretty sure…
[00:07:29] Brandon Ware: How do I know? The skunk to trunk. I’m pretty sure the trunk is something else. Ah, yes. How’s your butthole? Now that I’m thinking about it… Relaxed.
[00:07:38] Jess O’Reilly: How’s your forehead?
[00:07:38] Brandon Ware: Tense.
[00:07:39] Jess O’Reilly: Cause your vein is out.
[00:07:40] Brandon Ware: Is the vein? I have a vein that pops out as soon as I’m intense.
[00:07:44] Jess O’Reilly: Alright, I think we need to cut off enough about Brandon.
[00:07:47] Jess O’Reilly: I was trying to get to one thing, we went to a whole bunch because we have a bunch of questions actually we’re going to answer. The first one’s from a young person so I really want to get to this because hopefully I get to the answer. Before they get to the tattoo,[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: I hope not. I hope not. So before we dive into that question, we’ve got Adam and Eve. com who have reactivated the Dr. Jess 50 discount. So if you are in the market for lingerie, for vibrators, for dildos, for butt plugs, for King gear, for sex furniture, for lube, and anything. To do with pleasure, Adam and eve.com has you covered and you can save 50% off almost any single item plus free shipping, plus free rush handling with code Dr.
[00:08:30] Jess O’Reilly: Jess 50 and Doctor is shortened to Dr. So check that [email protected]. Alright, uh, our first question is from an 18 year old and I’m hoping that I’m answering it urgently enough. Here we go. I just turned 18 and I’ve been dating a guy who’s a few years older than me. He comes from money, so he’s shown me a lot of things I’ve never seen before.
[00:08:54] Jess O’Reilly: It’s only been a few months and he wants me to get a matching tattoo. Why are you laughing?
[00:09:00] Brandon Ware: I’m not. I’m listening. I’m taking a beat.
[00:09:02] Jess O’Reilly: Are you taking a beat? Oh, well, first of all, your body, you do what you want. And I’ve, I’ve actually come across a question similar to this when I was doing interviews on celebrities in the past.
[00:09:13] Jess O’Reilly: And, you know, one thing that Always comes to mind is that when you commit to something like a tattoo, I think it intensifies the pressure on the relationship, but not the pressure to invest in the relationship, not the pressure to thrive and ensure that the relationship is fulfilling, but the pressure to stay together.
[00:09:30] Jess O’Reilly: And that can be really overwhelming. So I’m wondering if you can wait it out a bit because you’ve taken the time to DM me, thank you, which means you’re not being impulsive about it and you know it’s not you’re out one night and you decide to do it like I would do. So I’m wondering if taking a little more time to contemplate is that doable for you and if you decide to hopefully you stand behind it but I just wonder what the benefits of a tattoo might be right now.
[00:09:56] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s a great answer. Yeah. You know, I remember this with, is it [00:10:00] Pete Davidson and Kim Kardashian? Could be. I think that, that’s the correct name. And I always think about the parallels, you know, that piece around one of you having money or both of you in this case for, for the celebrities and when the necessities of life are…
[00:10:13] Jess O’Reilly: all taken care of at this kind of extreme or superfluous level. So often we’ll start to seek thrills and take risks that other people who have to actually look out for basic needs and safety can’t imagine. And so I’m thinking about, you know, this, this guy comes from money and sometimes those risks can be physical, like, you know, purposefully seeking.
[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: Pain, which can in fact be pleasurable in the right context with the rush of endorphins and adrenaline. And they can also be emotional too, like diving headfirst into relationships with someone new and maybe not always checking in to see if they’re, you know, on board or in line with you. So, If you want to get the tattoo, of course, that’s your call and there’s no judgment, but I do think there’s value in waiting.
[00:10:54] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t want to say, no, just you’re young. Cause it’s not just that you’re 18. I get it. And I think it’s great that you’re seeing some new, exciting things. I also think it’s great that you’re recognizing that maybe there are some levels of potential inequity in the relationship if he’s a little bit older and he has a little bit more money.
[00:11:13] Jess O’Reilly: So just being aware of what that can lead to in terms of, in terms of influence.
[00:11:18] Brandon Ware: I just want to comment on how mature I think this person is to be 18 years old and reaching out for advice and reflecting on this and and even just thinking this through and I think it’s great that they’re doing it I think back to the ideas I had all my friends were getting tattoos 16 17 18 years old and man I think back though to the idea some of the some of the things that I wanted to get tattooed when I was 18.
[00:11:39] Brandon Ware: Was it a barbed wire? I know it wasn’t a barbed wire but it might have been an airwalk symbol or it might have been like Calvin and Hobbes or something and I’m like the shoe yeah man and I’m like I am so glad that I just waited a little bit. You didn’t even skateboard. I snowboarded a long time ago.
[00:11:57] Brandon Ware: Was airwalk a I don’t know man, like maybe it [00:12:00] was. Listen, I didn’t get it, that’s my point. I’m very happy that I didn’t get anything. I still think that, you know, a lot of my friends are very happy with the art, the ink that they have. And perhaps this person will be too. I’m just very thankful that I, I took a beat.
[00:12:13] Brandon Ware: And didn’t get what I wanted to get at that point.
[00:12:16] Jess O’Reilly: I know so many people who have had tattoos removed. So many people Or covered. Yeah, or covered. It’s a big industry, actually. I think it’s a very, very profitable industry. Anyhow, you do what’s right for you, and I love the idea of taking a beat here. Okay, I have another question from another younger listener, uh, who provides quite a bit of context, but the short version is, What do I do about an uncle who is mean to my face right at the dinner table?
[00:12:38] Jess O’Reilly: He’ll criticize me, he’ll mock me. I don’t know how to deal with him. or make it stop. That sucks. I’m really sorry. And you don’t deserve that and you don’t have to put up with it. And I know it’s not as easy as I think sometimes, you know, in some of the chat groups I’m in, people will say, just speak your mind, you know, tell them to stop, stand up for yourself, set your boundaries.
[00:12:56] Jess O’Reilly: But if you’re writing in, it’s because maybe you don’t feel comfortable doing that. Right. And so I wonder who the allies are in your family. who might have a different relationship with your uncle and can potentially stand up to him. Maybe because of their age, maybe because of their role, maybe because of their status in the family, maybe because of their gender.
[00:13:16] Jess O’Reilly: I wonder if you can let them know what’s happening if they aren’t seeing it. Maybe they’re not picking up on just how harmful his comments are. And ask them If they’ll stand up, however you feel comfortable. Like maybe you want them to speak to him privately. Maybe you want them to intervene. Maybe you want them to stand up at the table and say cut that out.
[00:13:37] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you’d rather them do it in a lighter way. I think you have to figure out what you’re comfortable with because sometimes in the past where I, when I haven’t been comfortable standing up for myself, somebody else stepped in and it’s made me feel worse. Because I’m so conflict averse or I don’t, I didn’t feel like conflict was safe in that space.
[00:13:55] Jess O’Reilly: So just look for those allies and think about what it is you want them to do for you.
[00:13:59] Brandon Ware: Well, [00:14:00] hopefully this person has the opportunity to also not attend those family gatherings. And I’m not saying that they do, but it would be, you know, maybe somebody else will pick up on it when you start realizing that I’m not gonna show up.
[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that is a way of communicating. Withdrawal is a form of communication. And especially if you feel they’re being abusive and it’s adversely affecting how you feel about yourself, which I imagine it is if you’ve sent me this note. Uh, you, you have choice around those boundaries, hopefully. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t.
[00:14:26] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you live in the home where the, maybe you all live together, I don’t know. So can you set boundaries and not spend time with them? Like maybe you don’t skip every family function, but maybe you bring a friend or a partner as a buffer. Maybe you sit on a different side of the room. Maybe you tell them like you’re not engaging with it and you have to kind of figure out what works, works for you.
[00:14:44] Jess O’Reilly: One thing that I’ve seen with young people communicating with aunties and uncles and usually intergenerational communication in families. Sometimes it’s effective to write a letter or an email or a text to kind of more clearly communicate what you’re feeling and make really specific requests, right?
[00:15:01] Jess O’Reilly: Like, you know, stop referring to me by that rude nickname or stop joking about that incident or I don’t want to be called this sometimes reading it in writing. Can be helpful. And I think we have to also be sensitive to the fact that if your uncle’s older than you, which they usually are, he may not be responsive.
[00:15:16] Jess O’Reilly: If you call him out in front of everyone, right, that could be more explosive. And you have to be mindful of what kind of support you’re going to get. And I don’t know what your situation is, but I do hope that you take some action, that you have someone who’s an ally or that, and, or that you can speak up and set some boundaries.
[00:15:30] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I hope so too. And it’s easy to look in from the outside and say, just do this. I see that all the time. Just do this, just do that. And it’s like, well, you’re not there. So. You know, in this context or in this environment, I’m not comfortable. I like the idea of, of just maybe giving somebody who is an ally, somebody that you do trust a little nudge and be like, would you mind just hanging out with me at this family function today?
[00:15:48] Brandon Ware: Because in the past, you know, I’ve been made to feel really crappy by Uncle Dick.
[00:15:53] Jess O’Reilly: Uncle Dick. You know, I’m thinking about some of the things that folks in, in our families, let’s just say, have said to [00:16:00] me over the years and how I always just laughed it off. because it felt more comfortable than standing up to them and because in the moment my people pleasing impulsivity is how do I make this less awkward for everyone else rather than how do I make this safe for myself so I think that we have to kind of think about okay so how do I prioritize my safety here as well
[00:16:19] Brandon Ware: and as you said my the problem that I have is that I, my response is going to be very explosive.
[00:16:25] Brandon Ware: When I think about the circumstances where somebody might have said or done something, I think of, you know, being more confident and being more self assured of my beliefs and my, my core values today. I think if somebody did say something, I’m with certain people, I, I’d. fly off the handle like I’d have to do what you said before, which is take a beat
[00:16:41] Jess O’Reilly: and think about if you’re supposedly standing up for me, are you doing it in a way that’s supportive of me or supportive of yourself.
[00:16:47] Brandon Ware: And that’s what I was I was going towards, which is, am I just making things worse for you?
[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. I thank you for your question. I hope I hope it works out and you can have some good meals without all the nonsense. Okay, next topic is also from a fairly young couple. They’re newly wed and she says, my husband.
[00:17:04] Jess O’Reilly: has a coworker who just introduced herself to me as his work wife. I didn’t even know how to respond. When I talked to him about it after, he said she’s just kidding around. I think it’s inappropriate. He says it’s no big deal. Who is right?
[00:17:20] Brandon Ware: You ever had somebody refer to you as their work wife?
[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: No one would want me as a work wife.
[00:17:24] Jess O’Reilly: There’s no, no one even wants to work with me. Come near me. But you, do you remember years ago? I do remember. You worked with someone who we both knew and they were, I would, like a friend ish and a friendly acquaintance. And they called you. She said you were her work husband, and to me, that’s not something that personally bothered me, but it bothered you.
[00:17:47] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I spoke up.
[00:17:47] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:17:48] Brandon Ware: And it was more the principle. It’s like, we are friends, this is, there is no sort of intimate relationship between us, so I don’t want you to call me your work husband. You were just afraid. Because I’m not. [00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Jess O’Reilly: You were afraid all of them are going to start calling you their work husband.
[00:18:02] Brandon Ware: No, I, I, I felt like it crossed a line. Okay. I felt that it was… I felt it was inappropriate and I understand that it was just a joke and I understand that there was nothing about our relationship that could have been interpreted any other way. But for me, it was just, I’m not going to play this game. And I wanted to nip it in the bud.
[00:18:23] Jess O’Reilly: Do you think you would feel that way universally? Or do you think that it was that specific circumstance?
[00:18:29] Brandon Ware: No, I think I would feel that way universally.
[00:18:33] Jess O’Reilly: This man only wants one wife. He’s like, I do not want a second wife, a third wife.
[00:18:37] Brandon Ware: I’m happy with
[00:18:38] Brandon Ware: the one I got. I am over the moon.
[00:18:40] Jess O’Reilly: You’ve got your hands full.
[00:18:41] Brandon Ware: I’ve got my hands full, for sure.
[00:18:44] Jess O’Reilly: No more wives. I’m gonna get you a t shirt that says no more wives. No more wives. So this person says, I think it’s appropriate. He says, it’s no big deal who is right. So I don’t think I have the answer on who is right, but I do think about relationships and labels and how consent is so important.
[00:19:02] Jess O’Reilly: And so if he says it’s a joke, I would hope that all parties involved enjoy the joke and then go ahead and joke away, but if it’s making one of you. Presumably the person who’s more important to him because you’re his actual partner in life that he lives with. If it’s making you uncomfortable, and in some way is, I don’t know, like I don’t want to say undermining your relationship with him.
[00:19:23] Jess O’Reilly: I would hope that he would at least be open to that conversation around, yeah, maybe this isn’t right. Now, he can’t control. What she does nobody can control your feelings. You’re allowed to feel however you want And it sounds like they might have a fairly close relationship at work And if that’s the case you would think that He would also want you guys to potentially get along because you’ve already met her It sounds like, and I’m sure you’re going to see her again.
[00:19:48] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that there are ways to express appreciation for close relationships that make all parties comfortable. And I’m, listen, I get it. Not everybody just has one partner. Some [00:20:00] people have multiple partners. But if you only have one partner and you only have one husband and you only have one wife, I get why you might not want somebody else to use that title.
[00:20:07] Jess O’Reilly: Do you have control? Are you right? Like, do you have the moral higher ground? I don’t think so. But I, what I do think is that if you prioritize. Your personal relationships probably over your workplace relationships. You probably, he probably wants to hopefully make you feel a bit more comfortable and at least show you some support in this respect.
[00:20:25] Jess O’Reilly: Did I kind of dodge that question? I’m not trying to dodge it.
[00:20:28] Brandon Ware: The question, I think you answered it. I have something to add, like, what about even the idea of a workplace brother or workplace sister or workplace sibling? Could that not replace the idea of workplace? Partner, or spouse, or husband, or wife.
[00:20:40] Jess O’Reilly: It could be your work sister wife.
[00:20:42] Brandon Ware: Your work sister wife, yeah, for sure. But, even the idea of a husband or wife, to me, there’s a, there’s a sexual element, there’s an intimate element to it. So, would you be okay… With a sibling instead like I just that’s where my mind goes Like I’m just kind of going down and I’m not saying hey, listen, you need to go and be like no You’re my workplace sibling.
[00:21:04] Brandon Ware: But if you want to have that close of a relationship, why does it need why can’t it be? Sibling rather than you know a partner
[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t really think about it that way. And I guess it does have to do with personal values, like what is a husband to you, what is a wife to you, what is a sibling to you.
[00:21:18] Jess O’Reilly: But bottom line, if you’re not comfortable with it, I really hope he’s open to that conversation and at least showing you some support. Again, he can’t force her to stop. But he can express his discomfort with it. He can be like, eh, I only got one wife. Like, it’s kind of an easy thing to say. He doesn’t need to sit her down and say, you know what, my wife said that this is how it makes her feel and I’m gonna be on my wife’s side.
[00:21:37] Jess O’Reilly: I think that it’s usually easy to diffuse the situation. Like, I’m thinking about… when you had that situation. You were just like, Hey, don’t call me that. It wasn’t a letter you wrote her.
[00:21:46] Brandon Ware: It was short and sweet. And I mean, I think now that I think about it, I would be like, Hey, I don’t need another wife, but I could use a, I could use a sister.
[00:21:53] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t think it affected your relationship when you said it, did it? Not at all. Like you guys are still friendly. Yeah. Okay. Well, good luck with that. [00:22:00] Ah, all right. Now we have a question that I know I’ve received before. And this one, they actually signed it asking for a friend. What do you do if your partner refuses to go to therapy but the relationship is on the rocks?
[00:22:13] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so this happens all the time. One partner wants to go to therapy, the other doesn’t. Uh, I always say please don’t let your partner’s resistance to therapy hold you back. If you think you can benefit from therapy as a couple, you can absolutely benefit from therapy on your own. So, if your partner refuses to go to therapy, quite simply, Go on your own, because a therapist can help you learn to identify and communicate what it is you want and need more effectively.
[00:22:38] Jess O’Reilly: They can help you to process your feelings, they can help you perhaps with more compassion for yourself and for your partner. It can help, I think a therapist can also help you to better understand your own triggers, explore all the different styles with which, and experience with which you approach this relationship.
[00:22:53] Jess O’Reilly: And, it helps you to work on yourself. And, I will say that sometimes, when one partner… Once the other to attend therapy with them, it can be motivated by a desire to change the partner, change your partner’s attitude, change your partner’s behavior, but that is not within your control. You can make adjustments to your own thoughts.
[00:23:11] Jess O’Reilly: You can adjust your own behavior. You can attenuate some of your reactions to your partner’s behavior. You can learn new skills that can improve your own functioning in the relationship. But, I don’t want to say that’s a wrap, but that’s, that’s really the focus of therapy itself. So, if they won’t go to therapy, you go and derive all those benefits, please.
[00:23:34] Jess O’Reilly: Now, if your partner refuses to work on the relationship more generally, That’s when we run into trouble and I think this is a really important and nuanced discussion because sometimes people will say well If they won’t go to therapy, they’re not invested in the relationship And I do want to challenge that because although I’m a proponent of therapy It’s also only one way to work on the relationship.
[00:23:55] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not the only way it’s one way to work on yourself But it’s not the only way so again you [00:24:00] see value in it go on your own, but your partner might not see value in it for many reasons, right? Therapy wasn’t designed for everyone. And you may not have access to a therapist who reflects your needs. So maybe your partner sees value in other approaches.
[00:24:16] Jess O’Reilly: So you want to make space for those as well. So if you’re not on the same page and you’re getting nowhere together without therapy, you can go to therapy, but also you want to kind of not keep doing what isn’t working. So if they won’t go to therapy, I think what I want to know is. What are they willing to do?
[00:24:32] Jess O’Reilly: Like, ask them, and I don’t mean in an accusatory, demanding, or judgmental way, but with real curiosity. So, if you didn’t want to go to therapy and I did, I might say something like, you know, I feel like we’re struggling, whether that’s generally or with a specific issue, and I love you and I want to make this work, and I remember when we were in sync and thriving in this respect, and I want to get back to that.
[00:24:54] Jess O’Reilly: I’m doing some work on myself in therapy, and I know you’re doing your part on your own. And I get that therapy isn’t your thing. I do. So I want to figure out what our thing can be. How can we work on this relationship or issue together? And that doesn’t mean that we close the book forever on therapy.
[00:25:10] Jess O’Reilly: Like, maybe I do want you to stay open to it because I do think facilitated conversations with someone who’s supportive of both of you can be helpful. But I try and figure out, okay, so they don’t want to take that route. What route do they want to take? And I have heard people kind of throw therapy in their partner’s faces.
[00:25:26] Jess O’Reilly: Like, well, you won’t even go to therapy or if you don’t want to do therapy, what is it you want to do? I’m not talking about that kind of approach. I really mean real. Curiosity.
[00:25:34] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I agree.
[00:25:34] Brandon Ware: I mean, learning about The colonial nature of therapy. I’ve come to realize that yeah, it’s not necessarily for everyone But just because you’re not doing it as you said doesn’t mean that you’re not doing something But I think what you said there really resonates with me, which is like what are you doing?
[00:25:51] Brandon Ware: What are you willing to do? Like I I don’t have anything else to add to this I just sitting here listening and on agreeing with everything that it is you have to say and hopefully your partner [00:26:00] is number one recognizes That there is a problem, that you’re out of sync. And then from there, hopefully a conversation will emerge where it’s like, as you said, like, this is what I’m willing to do.
[00:26:09] Brandon Ware: I’m not willing to go to therapy, but I’m willing to do this or do that. And hopefully you can get on board so that it gets better.
[00:26:14] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I mean, that might be working through a self help book. It might be working on conversations together to help you to better understand one another. I, it might be going to a workshop.
[00:26:23] Jess O’Reilly: It might be just making small changes to your daily routine. It kind of depends what the problem is, right? And I will say though, I see so often that people no longer want to work on their relationship. Like we do see couples arrive at this impasse where one person is like, how do we fix this? And the other one is like, like whatever.
[00:26:40] Jess O’Reilly: They’re just kind of resigned to live together unhappily or miserably or in an Non consensual sexless relationship or whatever the case may be. They’re like, well, we’re together now So that’s that and I do think that sometimes we take our partners for granted and we take the relationship for granted and we think That you know what we’ve been miserable for six years.
[00:26:59] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve been miserable for 11 years We haven’t been intimate or sexual in 12 years And again some people can opt into not having sex but I’m talking about people who are unhappy with being in sexless relationships And they think, well, we’ve gone this far. So subconsciously, or they’ve convinced themselves that in five years, they’ll still be together.
[00:27:15] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s not necessarily the case. Like there comes a point where people say, okay, I’ve got this short life to live. I would love to invest with a partner, but I, with my partner, but I want to invest with a partner who’s also invested. So if you’ve checked out of the relationship, just know that you can’t necessarily count on your partner staying.
[00:27:31] Brandon Ware: Well, for me, if you were to say that you’re not interested in working on something that was an issue for me, that would, I would, I would probably start to harbor some resentment there. And I feel like that would grow into something a lot bigger. Like it wouldn’t just be this one particular issue. It would probably expand and seep its way into other parts of our relationship.
[00:27:49] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s exactly what we see, right? Like it’s. It starts with one issue, and then it creeps into the bedroom, it creeps into the kitchen, it creeps into the living room, it creeps into every realm of the relationship. Now, having [00:28:00] said that, you don’t have
[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Jess O’Reilly: to resolve every issue. That’s the other, like the flip side of this, that we’re seeing, I see oftentimes with kind of younger, newer couples, is that they want to solve every damn thing.
[00:28:10] Jess O’Reilly: They want to reconcile every damn difference. And I mean like little things. I’m not talking about big value stuff. And sometimes you just have to accept that you can’t have everything you want from a single partner, right? They can’t be everything. They can’t do everything. You can’t align on every value, but hopefully on the core ones.
[00:28:29] Jess O’Reilly: And again, hopefully you want your partner to have the best life possible, right? Again, that’s like my baseline. Am I with someone who wants the best life for me? And that is defined differently for you and me versus, you know, everybody else.
[00:28:42] Brandon Ware: Agreed. Bell hooks. What is love?
[00:28:45] Jess O’Reilly: Giving them space to grow.
[00:28:46] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Brandon Ware: Why? I mean, the way I interpret it was like just wanting that person to be the best version of themselves and supporting them to be that. I mean, it’s such a beautiful way to want for your partner.
[00:28:58] Jess O’Reilly: And it creates space for all different types of relationships. And that’s why when I get a question, like for example, the previous one about the work wife.
[00:29:04] Jess O’Reilly: I guess the other side is like, can we let go of some of this stuff? Can I be like, you know what, that upsets me, but I’m gonna get over it. ’cause sometimes stuff has happened over the course of our 22 or three years together where it’s like, okay, so that didn’t feel good. I don’t need to figure it all out and get to the root of it and always get an apology or always get you on my side.
[00:29:24] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes it’s like, oh, here’s this thing that happened and I’m just gonna deal with it. For sure.
[00:29:27] Brandon Ware: Things have happened. And, as you said, gotta move on. Otherwise we’d never stop talking. Ever. Absolutely. About anything.
[00:29:34] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and I think I’ve been very guilty of that in the past where like, a little thing is bothering me and then I bring it up and then it blows up into something bigger and I look back and I’m like, why did I even bring that up?
[00:29:44] Jess O’Reilly: Like, could I not have just, like, dealt with that in my head? Shut up and move on? Like a minor issue though. Yeah, a minor issue. Yeah, like I’ll bring, I used to bring up like every little thing and I think it comes back to perfectionism. Which is… The devil, like the devil in me, where trying to be [00:30:00] perfect is just always setting yourself up for failure.
[00:30:02] Jess O’Reilly: And I think there’s pressure on relationships today too, to be perfect.
[00:30:05] Brandon Ware: Well, because they’re in the spotlight too, right? It’s like you have to have this perfect relationship because it’s on, it’s, it’s in the spotlight all the time. If you’re on social, if you’re out, you know, and kind of comparing yourself to other people in other relationships.
[00:30:17] Jess O’Reilly: It’s become another status symbol, right? We talked about like they had trophy wives and then trophy children and then trophy marriages. And it’s not that I don’t see value in a fabulous partnership. Of course, like, I, I mean, I wouldn’t do this work if I didn’t love you and love life and love all of it.
[00:30:33] Jess O’Reilly: But this idea that it ought to be perfect all the time is just, it’s absurd. So, okay. I think we’re going to stop there. I have a whole bunch more questions and we’re going to have to save them for next week. But I do appreciate you writing in about these kind of range of topics. Don’t necessarily have firm answers on all of them, but hopefully we’ve given you something to think about.
[00:30:51] Jess O’Reilly: And if these aren’t your questions, hopefully they give you some insights on what’s going on. In your life, and you’ll start more conversations with more people around you about these relationship topics, because they’re interesting, they’re layered, they’re nuanced, and the more we talk about them, the more we bring them into the light and out of the shadows of shame.
[00:31:10] Jess O’Reilly: With that, AdamandEve. com, just a reminder, if you are shopping there for all the fun stuff that vibrates. Or sucks in a good way. , or is Lacey, or Leathery, all that jazz. Adam and eve.com use code, Dr. Jess 54, 50% off almost any single item plus free shipping. Plus super fast handling.
[00:31:31] Brandon Ware: Super fast. They’ll handle your
[00:31:33] Brandon Ware: goods.
[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: Oh God. Okay folks, have a great one and shipping it quickly. Cutting this off now. ,
[00:31:39] Jess O’Reilly: you’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Sex & Relationship Q&A: Cheating, Trust & Sexual Pressure
19 okt 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
How do you define cheating?And how do you recover once trust has been broken?How do you deal with sexual pressure from a partner?Womanizer Premium Eco
Jess and Brandon weigh in on personal questions from listeners. They also share an offer from Womanizer in honour of Breast Cancer Awareness Month: if you’re a survivor, request your Womanizer Premium Eco by emailing info at sexwithdrjess dot com.
If you have podcast questions, please submit them here. Donâ€™t forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Sex & Relationship Q&A: Cheating, Trust & Sexual Pressure
Episode 338
[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight. Hey, hey, we’re back at it after a week off. Are you, are you feeling rested?
[00:00:19] Brandon Ware: I feel refreshed.
[00:00:20] Jess O’Reilly: You do?
[00:00:21] Brandon Ware: Not at all.
[00:00:22] Jess O’Reilly: In 400 or so episodes, or maybe we’re not quite at 400. I think we’ve only missed two weeks.
[00:00:27] Brandon Ware: About three 50. And that’s impressive that you’ve only missed. Two weeks.
[00:00:30] Jess O’Reilly: Is it? For me it is. For another person who’s not as, uh, commitment phobic. Not that impressive, but apologies for missing last week. Not gonna get into it, but happy to, happy to be back chatting with you today, babe. Yeah, always happy to be here.
[00:00:43] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got some questions from some listeners that, uh, I’m always kind of intrigued by and intrigued to hear what you have to say and what others think. So we do have a bit of an alternative sponsor for Breast Cancer Awareness Month as well. Uh, because cancer diagnosis and treatment have repeatedly been shown to adversely affect sexual function.
[00:01:03] Jess O’Reilly: We know that, for example, 83% of breast cancer survivors meet the clinical criteria for sexual dysfunction. We know that a very small percentage actually receive supports in this area. So our sponsored womanizer has. partnered with charity, the leading research hospital in Berlin for a breast cancer clinical study on sexuality and libido for breast cancer survivors.
[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: And they already have some preliminary data in this study showing that masturbating helps with libido loss and sexual self worth in breast cancer survivors who have undergone treatment. So I am looking forward to seeing some of those. Some of those formal results once published, and Erica Hart, who is a fellow sex educator, they’re an activist, a breast cancer survivor themself, they advocate for an active pleasure approach to breast cancer survivors treatment.
[00:01:51] Jess O’Reilly: They are also on board as part of the project. And the reason we’re bringing this up is that Womanizer, you know I’m a fan of this brand, a huge fan of their [00:02:00] technology, Womanizer is giving away. a whole lot of premium ecos. So those are their premium version of womanizers, but they’re recyclable. So they’re made from recyclable material.
[00:02:12] Jess O’Reilly: The product itself is recyclable. It uses less packaging, all that jazz. And so if you are a survivor and you’re interested in a free womanizer premium eco, just let me know. So shoot an email over to our admin over here at sexwithdrjess, it’s info at sexwithdrjess. com. Just let us know you’d like one and you need to send your name and shipping address and we’ll have it shipped out to you.
[00:02:37] Jess O’Reilly: So if you’re a breast cancer survivor or maybe you know someone who is who deserves a little more pleasure in their life, courtesy of Womanizer, do shoot us a message and you can find more info on it online as well at womanizer. com slash. It’s breast cancer study and I think there’s a little dash between each of those words.
[00:02:55] Jess O’Reilly: Probably much easier to just email me info at sexwithdrjess. com and we’d love to have Womanizer ship that out to you and they have some other programming going on this month as well. With certain purchases you receive a free boob necklace, um, in support of breast cancer survivors. Pleasure. All right, so we look forward to hearing from you and now.
[00:03:16] Jess O’Reilly: We move on to these questions, and man, we receive so many questions, and honestly, I know I feel badly I can’t answer all of them, but, uh, these ones I’m looking forward to digging into, so let’s get straight to the first one. First question. What do I say to my husband who insists that sex is my marital duty and that men need to get off regularly?
[00:03:36] Jess O’Reilly: He says it’s normal that if I don’t do it for him, he’s gonna get it somewhere else because he needs to get off. We have pretty regular sex, but for the past few weeks, life has been a mess, so it’s been a slow patch. We have two younger ones under two, and I had a C section on the last one, and I was a little bit slow to recover.
[00:03:56] Brandon Ware: Wow, I have a lot of things to share.
[00:03:58] Jess O’Reilly: Fine, go ahead.
[00:03:59] Brandon Ware: Sounds… [00:04:00] Okay, candid, Brandon? Sounds like a dick. Um, doesn’t really sound that fair, if I had to be honest. If you’re looking to get off, you can use your hand. You can use a toy. You can rub up against a furry wall. You can rub up against a pair of silk boxers.
[00:04:16] Brandon Ware: If you’re young. enough. But I think this entitlement, this idea that you absolutely, this is your duty to me, without a conversation, sounds… Unjust yeah, I think you know, the first thing I’m looking for is let’s have a dialogue. Let’s open this up Let’s see where this goes
[00:04:34] Jess O’Reilly: man. It’s only been a few weeks.
[00:04:36] Brandon Ware: Is that I missed that part, too It’s only been a few weeks. So, you know, I’m not saying that we’re all not looking to Enjoy sex and to get off but I think after a few weeks And this, this requirement that you have to do this for me, I’m like, man, there’s just a lot to unpack here.
[00:04:54] Jess O’Reilly: Requirement with a threat, too.
[00:04:55] Jess O’Reilly: You know, so, you know, I don’t believe monogamy is the end all be all. But I do think respect is sort of an end all be all. And the way you’re describing these things, it really doesn’t sound like he’s showing much respect. You know, I definitely don’t see sex as a marital duty. I see sex as a shared experience, right?
[00:05:14] Jess O’Reilly: All parties opt into for pleasure, for connection, or any other benefits that you might associate with sex. It’s not something you want to do to stop him from doing it with someone else. That feels like a lot of weight to carry around. And I know people are gonna, you know, kind of say, Well, What about the fact that you make a commitment when you opt into a monogamous relationship or marriage?
[00:05:36] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying that you don’t want to prioritize and, you know, work to ensure that both of your sexual desires are attended to in some way, but not out of duty and not under duress and not when he’s threatening you. So my first thought always is, okay, so if he’s acting this way with regard to sex, I’m really curious if he makes similar demands or threats.
[00:05:58] Jess O’Reilly: in other realms of the [00:06:00] relationship, beyond sex. Like what else does he see as your duty? What does he see as his duty? And can we unpack where those ideas come from and be flexible in, you know, our expectations? And again, it’s been a few weeks. I mean, you have two under two. So I hope that you’re able to call him out if it’s safe to do so.
[00:06:21] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you can let him know that you do want to have sex, but you want to do it because it feels good. Emotionally, physically, relationally, spiritually, and more. However, you know, again, whatever you associate with the benefits of sex, you want to, you want to do it, but not because he’s threatening you. And I think I’d want to ask, you know, why do you see it as a duty?
[00:06:39] Jess O’Reilly: And maybe better understand what sex means to him, right? Is it just getting off? Is it something you share? with someone you care about or someone you connect with or, you know, I’m curious, does he see getting off with someone else since he brought that up as part of how he wants the relationship structured or is that just an empty threat?
[00:06:56] Jess O’Reilly: And I’d love for these conversations, I really think, to be supported by a counselor or therapist because I think they’re heavy ones and one sided to me.
[00:07:06] Jess O’Reilly: Huge, you know, I always say there’s no universal red flags but this feels like a really serious red flag to me. And, if you can’t see a counselor or therapist, is there someone else you can talk to, you know, a friend, a cousin, a sibling, someone who maybe has a bit more insight into your relationship than I do?
[00:07:22] Jess O’Reilly: And I know I’ve said before that, philosophically, I don’t see why we’d want to hold our partners back from pleasure, but To me, that applies to loving, respectful, ethical partners, and someone who threatens you, and makes demands like this, to me, doesn’t qualify.
[00:07:35] Brandon Ware: I always think about role reversal, and I’m not saying that that’s the best case scenario to try and understand the problem, but what if the roles were reversed?
[00:07:42] Brandon Ware: How would they feel, or how would he feel, in this particular instance? What if all of a sudden he decided he didn’t want to have sex at all? What if that was the scenario, right? What would he expect of you? What would he expect of you? Right. So I think, you know, my knee jerk response is, he sounds like a dick.
[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: And I’m still standing behind that because I don’t have more context to what’s going on other [00:08:00] than this description. But from what has been said, I stand, I, I do feel confident with what I’ve said. And I also think that Brandon’s got the dick stamp? I’ve got the dick stamp. I’m like, boom, I’m gonna smack it right in your forehead.
[00:08:10] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Listen, we don’t, we don’t have the answers, we don’t have the full picture, but I hope you have the supports to, to know that you shouldn’t be treated this way, and that I hope you have the tools and the capacity to, to stand up a little, or get, you know, get, rally the supportive people around you, not to go after him, but to better understand your own perspective, because the fact that, you know, he’s framed it this way to you, and you’re asking me, and it’s not like you just asked me this week, this is a little bit old, so you’ve been probably going through this for some time, maybe your judgment has been Thank you.
[00:08:39] Jess O’Reilly: bit clouded to where you’re starting to believe some of the things he says, and that’s something that happens in relationships when people are abusive and unethical.
[00:08:47] Brandon Ware: And there could be other things happening behind the scenes that we just don’t know about, right?
[00:08:50] Jess O’Reilly: And this was, I received this, uh, I think a couple of months ago, you said that it’s been going on for a couple of weeks and I just hope you’re in a safe place because you don’t need to be under duress and threat.
[00:09:00] Brandon Ware: Agreed.
[00:09:01] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, you know, you brought up role reversal, and I think that really applies to this next question. And this one pertains to what qualifies as cheating. And I, oh, I receive so many questions that are along the lines of, you know, Am I being reasonable? Is my partner being reasonable? And you know, of course, it’s up to you to determine boundaries.
[00:09:16] Jess O’Reilly: But this is an interesting one. She writes in, I caught my husband in the back room of a strip club getting a private. Dance. His belt was undone. I saw a bunch of big charges on the credit card statement, so I walked right in there, because we had already talked about the fact that strip clubs are fine, but no touching.
[00:09:34] Jess O’Reilly: He says it’s not cheating, and that he never touches the dancers. He says he keeps his hands to himself, so he’s following our rules, even though they’re… Touching him. I say it is cheating because even if he’s not using his hands, there’s lots of body contact involved. He says I’m being a prude. Am I overreacting?
[00:09:51] Jess O’Reilly: And how do we even move forward? Okay. So I think you’re probably going to want support with talking this one through as well, because my view is [00:10:00] that you’re not overreacting because it sounds to me like you agreed on a relationship rule or boundary and he’s trying to ride it out in the grey area. I’d be surprised to believe that he even believes what he’s saying.
[00:10:10] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I’d be surprised as well. I love this. It’s a loophole. I’m not doing anything wrong. It’s totally cool. My penis is just out of my pants and someone’s rubbing it.
[00:10:17] Jess O’Reilly: I’m sitting on my hands. I think he’s playing semantics, right? I didn’t touch with my hands. Well, you touch with all sorts of body parts, so that’s touching.
[00:10:24] Jess O’Reilly: And like you said, babe, this one, I’m really curious how he’d feel if roles were reversed. So, no, I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think when a relationship boundary or rule or whatever you want to call it is violated, Whether the spirit of the rule is violated or it’s literally violated, I think it’s reasonable to say that you’re not comfortable with this.
[00:10:46] Jess O’Reilly: That doesn’t mean he has to do what you want though.
[00:10:47] Brandon Ware: Agreed.
[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: So how you move forward is really up to the two of you. I think it’s probably fair to say that trust has been violated and that takes work. to rebuild and that is a shared job and we’ve spoken about cheating and how to get it over cheating and whether a cheater will cheat again in the past and I don’t care if we label it cheating or some sort of violation whatever language works for you but my focus would be how do we a rebuild trust and how do we Build this relationship in a way that works for both of us because, you know, there might be a really clear path where you can repair trust because he shows accountability and you both commit to agreeing to relationship parameters together.
[00:11:27] Jess O’Reilly: So maybe that includes strip clubs or maybe it doesn’t, but what’s important is that you’re both happy with the arrangement and. That can take some real work to find that common ground. I think it takes effort and more than a few conversations to get you both on the same page. And I will say, we have a lot of tools on this podcast, in previous episodes, to help you navigate some of these conversations.
[00:11:49] Jess O’Reilly: To help you better understand one another’s sexual values. Not just what you want, but why you want it. And all the attachments related to your histories, related to your [00:12:00] identities, related to personal values. that dictate how you define sex, how you define monogamy, how you define ethical non monogamy. So if you go back to some of the conversations on sexual values and relational values, I think that can be helpful.
[00:12:13] Jess O’Reilly: And again, if you can work with a professional whose approach aligns with yours, that’s ideal. However, I think it’s also important to recognize that some people can’t find common ground. Some people realize that, you know, they aren’t in a space where they can rebuild trust or they can’t agree on what they want, and even in the absence of rebuilding trust and finding common ground, so many folks stay together.
[00:12:35] Jess O’Reilly: Nonetheless, right? Many people stay together in a new type of relationship. I know folks in your situation who stay together, but they stop having sex with each other, especially when I’m thinking of multiple cases right now. They find out their partners are having sex with other people, and I can’t tell you how many couples stay in these situations because they want to stay together as a family, or because they work together, or to avoid disruption or social stigma.
[00:12:59] Jess O’Reilly: And some of them find a new reality. Where they can’t really agree sexually but they still kind of like each other or they really like each other. Some of them have a lot of fun together, they enjoy one another’s company. Some don’t. Like some stay together and they don’t like each other and they’re full of resentment.
[00:13:16] Jess O’Reilly: And I think the reason I’m going off here is that there is every permutation of relationship out there. Obviously, you know, I see relationships as the key to fulfillment in life. And health and wealth and every possible piece of happiness. So I wish people were in happy relationships. I’d love to see people in safe, happy, fulfilling relationships.
[00:13:38] Jess O’Reilly: So to go back to it, if you can figure out what that means for you. Maybe be a bit flexible, but also focus on what are your own needs and values, and you can build from there. So I’m not trying to be opaque. Maybe you find a way to realize that, you know what, yeah, he wants to go to strip clubs, and I’m going to find a way to reconcile that, so it feels okay for me.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe you don’t. Maybe he keeps doing it, and it feels awful for you, and then you have to decide, do I really want to stay in this relationship? You know, and let’s be honest, some people in this situation break up. They realize. That they’re simply not aligned. And I’m not suggesting that, you know, a trip to a strip club is the sole reason that people split up.
[00:14:16] Jess O’Reilly: But if your values don’t align, if you can’t trust one another, if you end up constantly fighting about issues like this one, of course it leads to deterioration of trust and connection and attraction and care and kindness and safety and all the other beautiful things we seek. And
[00:14:38] Brandon Ware: I think it’s interesting that we start relationships with copious amounts of conversation.
[00:14:44] Brandon Ware: When we start dating someone or seeing someone, you’re out, you’re not just having sex, you’re not doing chores, you’re not taking care of the kids, you’re doing. I get it, fun things, but you’re out having these conversations, talking about what you want in the future, what you want today, what you’re okay with, with your potential partner.
[00:15:02] Brandon Ware: But then once you get into these relationships, we hear all of these stories about people who have stopped communicating or used the communication that they had 10, 5, 10, 20 years ago as the parameters. For current activities or, or whatever it is that they’re doing, but it’s like, these need to be updated.
[00:15:19] Brandon Ware: You need to be having constant conversations to understand what are you comfortable with today? Because what I was comfortable with five years ago, I’m, may not be comfortable with today.
[00:15:28] Jess O’Reilly: Well, it’s interesting because this person seems to be clear about what they’re comfortable with. Because they had this agreement that you don’t touch at a strip club.
[00:15:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right. But they’re also asking me if they’re overreacting, which suggests to me that they’re curious about hopefully not what I think, because what I think doesn’t really matter. I’m curious about whether or not maybe they are flexible on some of these things, but being flexible on your partner, going to a strip club and getting touched by other people or touching other people is totally different than being flexible on having a partner who lies to you or who rides that gray area.
[00:15:59] Jess O’Reilly: In [00:16:00] honestly, what feels like a childish way to me, like if you guys had an agreement and they violated it, that’s why I said the number one thing is you have to kind of repair, rebuild trust, and then you have to decide how do you want to build this relationship together? What’s it going to look like? And rather than dictating what it ought to be from either’s perspective or assuming that it ought to be one way because it’s what most people do, I really think it is about digging into your sexual values, Your relational values and what really brings you joy and love and comfort and safety and excitement and passion and all the things you want from a relationship and that’s actual effort.
[00:16:37] Jess O’Reilly: That’s not just about finding the right partner because right now you don’t have the right partner. Like, and I don’t mean he’s wrong. I mean, clearly you’re not right for one another because what one of you wants is not what the other wants. One of you is clearly, I’m going to just use the word lying because that’s what it is.
[00:16:52] Jess O’Reilly: And that doesn’t mean that you can’t. Figure out how to fit together. It’s just at this moment in time according to this specific incident You’re not the right fit
[00:17:00] Brandon Ware: sounds kind of childish to me if I had to be honest like this this idea Well, you know, this is what we agreed to so i’m not technically touching anyone.
[00:17:07] Brandon Ware: I’m like, come on, man your partner clearly is You know, comfortable enough with themselves to have these conversations, right? And you’re the one that’s saying, well, there’s a loophole here. So
[00:17:17] Jess O’Reilly: I’m going to use their hands up in the air, rubbing their penis.
[00:17:19] Brandon Ware: Just going to take my penis out and see what happens, you know?
[00:17:22] Jess O’Reilly: So, no, I don’t think you’re overreacting. I definitely don’t think you’re being approved, but I think there are some very important conversations around trust and relationship agreements here. And it’s not going to be a one time thing. You guys, as Brandon said, you might land on something today that works.
[00:17:36] Jess O’Reilly: And then in six months, you might have to reassess. Because you might think you’re comfortable with something and then perhaps not be, or you might think you’re uncomfortable with something and then learn that, you know what, maybe this is something I could open my mind up to as well. So wishing you luck with that.
[00:17:50] Jess O’Reilly: And thank you so much. Thank you to both of you for sending in your questions. Again, we are not the arbiters of truth. We don’t have all the answers. We try and share our [00:18:00] perspective. And if anyone else wants to share their perspective, go ahead and record us a voice note in a nice quiet room. And we’re happy to consider playing it on the podcast as well.
[00:18:09] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, reading out what you write isn’t as, uh, I think effective, but if you feel like getting on that voice note, just with some headphones and recording in a quiet room, and you want to share your perspective or even experience with similar. situations please do. All right we’re going to stop there with a quick reminder that Womanizer is giving away free premium egos while supplies last and our listeners are on a priority list if you want to shoot us an email at info at sexwithdrjess.
[00:18:37] Jess O’Reilly: com and I will look at the results of the study the collaboration between Womanizer and CharitÃ© in In Berlin, when we see more of the data to come out about sexual functioning and self pleasure post breast cancer diagnosis and treatment. Thanks for chatting, babe.
[00:18:53] Brandon Ware: Thank you.
[00:18:53] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, folks. Have a great one.
[00:18:56] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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How To Plan A Successful Threesome
6 okt 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
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TL;DR: Planning a Threesome? Start With Reflection, Not Just Positioning
Threesomes can be thrilling, but successful ones begin with honest, vulnerable conversations, not just lube and logistics.
Don’t treat your third like a guest star in your show, co-create a trio of trust, pleasure, and presence.
Before you play, ask: What excites us? What concerns us? And how will we care for each other after the glow fades?
Avoid unicorn hunting faux pas by checking your couples privilege and ensuring the “third” has just as much voice and choice.
Feeling a wave of insecurity or jealousy? Good, you’re human. Use that as a cue to communicate and connect.
Use tools like the We-Vibe Nova 2 for hands-free dual pleasure or the Mini Wand to warm up or wind down the group vibe.
Ready to elevate the threesome from hot to unforgettable? Try the Womanizer Duo 2 for blended orgasms while one watches, one explores, and one moans their approval.
Most important threesome tool? Your mouth, not for what you do with it, but for what you say with it.
How to Plan a Successful Threesome: Reflect, Prepare & Play Responsibly
In Part II of our threesome discussion, we share questions and prompts to consider before you have a threesome for individuals and couples. We also share some of our listeners’ insights on threesomes and discuss couples privilege.
Threesome Preparation Questions
If you’re looking to ease the tension and enhance pleasure for everyone involved, consider building trust and communication before a single item of clothing comes off.
Whether you’re fantasizing about a spontaneous encounter or planning a luxurious, multi-hour play session, think about how you want all parties to feel seen, safe, and satisfied. And yes, that includes the so-called “third.” This isn’t about plugging someone into your pleasure plan like a puzzle piece. You’re co-creating a shared experience. A new dynamic. A temporary triad.
Threesomes: Self-Questionnaire
Why do you want to have a threesome?Where did the idea of a threesome come from?How do you feel about this source?What benefits do you expect to derive from a threesome?What are the perceived risks/costs?With whom would you like to have a threesome?Do you know if they’re open to it?How might your relationship with your threesome mates change post-threesome?What excites you most about a threesome?What motivates you?What concerns you about a threesome?Do you have any hesitations?What emotional elements of a threesome have you considered?How will you manage potentially challenging emotions should they arise?Do you feel comfortable communicating your desires and boundaries?What conditions increase your comfort level with open communication?What does your ideal threesome entail?
Consider the setting, relationships, involved parties, sex acts, etc…
Threesomes: Managing Jealousy, Insecurity & DistressAm I comfortable admitting to feelings of jealousy, insecurity and distress?I tend to feel jealous/insecure/distressed when…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, it shows up in my body as (emotional presence)When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I want to…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I can self-soothe by…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I’d like you to…When I feel jealous/insecure/distressed, I don’t want you to…You’ll know when I feel jealous/insecure/distressed when I…Some other cues to look for include…
Threesomes: Couples’ QuestionnaireWhose idea was it? Do you feel any pressure?Have you (in)directly pressured your partner?Why do you/we want to have a threesome?What do you/we hope to get out of the experience?What are my/our concerns about the experience?Have we talked about jealousy, insecurity and other potentially challenging emotions we might encounter?What would it look like if it goes well?What might it look like if something goes awry?How will we communicate and respond?What do we value in a third party?What type of person do we want to connect with?Do we want to involve a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend and/or a sex worker?Have we considered our couples’ privilege and how we can ensure that all voices are heard and respected?Unicorns aren’t just magical ponies in the sky
Unicorns (a term often used for the elusive, desired third, frequently a cis woman) often report feeling objectified, pressured, or excluded when couples forget this is a trio, not a duet with backup vocals. To help mitigate that dynamic, consider these updated strategies:
Before You Play: Consider the Emotional Landscape
Hoping to go from fantasy to frictionless fun? Try these mindset shifts first:
What does care and aftercare look like for everyone involved?How can you check in mid-play without killing the vibe?Do you know what jealousy, insecurity, or distress looks like in yourself? In your partner? In your guest?Are you willing to pause or shift the energy if someone feels off?
Use your imagination not just for stimulation, but for scenario planning. And remember, a quick “Are you good?” or “Want more of that?” mid-thrust can make all the difference.
Want to Keep the Connection Going? Try These Tools
Whether you’re a first-timer or seasoned explorer, bringing toys into the mix can help level the playing field and create new opportunities for shared pleasure, especially when bodies need breaks or someone wants to watch and stimulate themselves. Consider pairing your adventure with tools like the We-Vibe Nova 2 for hands-free dual stimulation or the Mini Wand for warming up and winding down. They’re compact enough for travel and powerful enough for group play.
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Looking for a toy that works solo, partnered, or in a triad? The Womanizer Duo 2 blends internal thrusting with external suction, letting one partner explore while the other two join — or simply observe.
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More Resources for Ethical Exploration
Curious about the psychology of jealousy or what it means to engage in ethical non-monogamy? You’re not alone. We dive into these questions — and so much more — on our podcast, so if you’re not already listening, check out the SexWithDrJess podcast here.
If you want more on how to manage complex emotions like insecurity, consider our earlier post: Will A Threesome Ruin My Relationship? or check out our Hot Husbanding Q&A episode where we answer your most personal and pressing questions.
If you’re looking for more insight on how to introduce the “threesome conversation” with your partner, check out this compassionate, inclusive guide to initiating this conversation, this article from Scarleteen on how to talk about your interest in a threesome with your boyfriend or partner.
Final Thoughts…
Whether you’re watching from the sidelines, playing with possibility, or diving in deep, the most important threesome tool is communication, honest, enthusiastic, consent-based communication. The most thrilling acts often begin with the most vulnerable conversations.
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Episode 337
How To Plan A Successful Threesome
[00:00:00] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. And I’m looking at Dr. Jess with a giant smile on her face.
[00:00:05] Jess O’Reilly: You like that? It’s a Terry Crews smile.
[00:00:06] Brandon Ware: I do like that smile.
[00:00:08] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:00:08] Brandon Ware: Why are you so happy?
[00:00:09] Jess O’Reilly: Because you walk past my laptop just now and I shut it. So you wouldn’t see what was on it.
[00:00:14] Brandon Ware: I, nothing shocks me.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Nothing surprises me.
[00:00:16] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not porn.
[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: Does it?
[00:00:18] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not. I mean, obviously not.
[00:00:20] Brandon Ware: If it was, I’d been so shocked.
[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: It’s for research purposes.
[00:00:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah, me too. Research.
[00:00:24] Jess O’Reilly: No, it was an article that I didn’t want to go to about the Scandinavian sleep method.
[00:00:30] Brandon Ware: Okay. I’m a Scandinavian. I’m going to just assume minimalism, hard woods.
[00:00:36] Jess O’Reilly: You just sleep on flanks of wood.
[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:00:39] Jess O’Reilly: No. So, so it’s this trend that has been popularized as of late on the TikTok. On the TikTok. Where you sleep in a double bed or a queen bed or a king bed. Okay. A matrimonial bed, as it’s called, and you sleep with separate comforters. So you share a bed, but separate comforters.
[00:00:57] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s my greatest fear that you’re gonna see this and want to do this.
[00:01:01] Brandon Ware: It’s, it doesn’t bother me at all because
[00:01:04] Brandon Ware: I don’t, I’m a human heating machine.
[00:01:06] Brandon Ware: Don’t you know this? After 23 years, I I, I have, I’m just, I’m a heating machine.
[00:01:11] Jess O’Reilly: I know, but does coming close to me get you too hot?
[00:01:14] Brandon Ware: Yes, absolutely. Don’t you notice that you’re like spoon me and then I’ll come over, I’ll spoon you, and then 30 seconds later, I’m like, okay, I’m sweating now I have to leave.
[00:01:21] Brandon Ware: And don’t you ever notice I temperature regulate with my leg, the single leg, and it’s like getting too hot. Leg goes out, give me five minutes, body cools down. Is
[00:01:32] Jess O’Reilly: it one leg or is it either leg? Depending on which side you’re on.
[00:01:34] Brandon Ware: It doesn’t matter. I don’t, most of the time, I don’t even know if I need a comforter, a sheet.
[00:01:39] Brandon Ware: Don’t you get, don’t, aren’t you like, why aren’t you sleeping with a sheet between your body and the comforter? And it’s because I don’t care.
[00:01:46] Jess O’Reilly: What drives me nuts is when you pull that one leg out and you put it on the comforter and then I can’t rip the comforter. Comforter away from you. That’s what I’m talking about.
[00:01:53] Jess O’Reilly: This is why I’m thinking you would like the Scandinavian sleep method because you could take the comforter off and I wouldn’t kind of moan about it, [00:02:00] but, and I don’t want two comforters. I know you’re going to tell me, Oh, you could have my comforter. No, I want you. I want your body. I want your heat. I want your warmth.
[00:02:07] Jess O’Reilly: I want your safety. Anything could get me in the night. If I’m not touching you, I’m scared.
[00:02:11] Brandon Ware: Have we talked about the murder side of the bed? Have we talked about this?
[00:02:14] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know.
[00:02:15] Brandon Ware: No,
[00:02:16] Brandon Ware: let’s talk about the murder side.
[00:02:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Because we have to move around a lot for work. We’re obviously sleeping in different places.
[00:02:22] Jess O’Reilly: So I know for most couples, one person sleeps on the right and one person sleeps on the left. Not in our house. People tend to have their side. For me, I just put Brandon on the murder side, which means if
[00:02:33] Brandon Ware: someone’s going to break in, I’m the closest to getting murdered first.
[00:02:38] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. But what about at this place?
[00:02:40] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re over in Barcelona, whose side is really the murder side? Because there’s the big, the big balcony doors.
[00:02:46] Brandon Ware: It, you know what? You never know. You never know. You know what? I’m, I’m, I flip flop back and forth.
[00:02:51] Jess O’Reilly: I’m a very scared sleeper. I should probably get some therapy on this. But even when I put my foot down on the ground to get out of the bed, I’m afraid someone’s under the bed and I’m.
[00:03:05] Brandon Ware: I always know exactly which side of the bed I’m going to take.
[00:03:07] Jess O’Reilly: The murder side.
[00:03:08] Brandon Ware: The murder side. It’s the murder side. It’s B’s side. Go on the murder side.
[00:03:13] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. I guess we should get down to this. Let’s do it. Okay. Scandinavian sleep methods. Sleep with separate comforters. Supposed to help you to sleep better.
[00:03:20] Jess O’Reilly: Regulate your temperature better. Thank God Brandon doesn’t want it. Sleep. Don’t sleep on the murder side. Yeah. Something like that. All right. We’re going to dive into the archives. Today for part two of threesomes. So now we’re, we talked last week. Now we’re talking about the how to, the planning, the safety nets, all that jazz.
[00:03:35] Jess O’Reilly: And this was a really popular episode when we first released it years ago. And I’m always being asked about threesomes. Everyone wants to talk about threesomes. So I think you’re going to like it before we get into it. We’ve got a great promo from adamandeve. com. They’ve activated. Code Dr. Jess 50. What is the 50 mean?
[00:03:54] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, Charles. 50 percent off almost any single item, plus free shipping, [00:04:00] plus free rush handling. They’re going to handle these toys for you.
[00:04:02] Brandon Ware: Handle your package for you before it even arrives.
[00:04:05] Jess O’Reilly: Ship it to you so you can get off fast. And it’s fall sex fest over at adamandeve. com. I was checking out some of their best selling toys.
[00:04:11] Jess O’Reilly: They’ve got the Eve’s rechargeable thrusting rabbit. So it has an outer arm to play against the external clitoris. It’s got an inner curved arm that vibes against the G spot, but it also has a thrusting mechanism. They’ve sold 275, 000 of these. Code DrJess50 is going to get you 50 percent off, free shipping plus.
[00:04:31] Jess O’Reilly: Personalized handling,
[00:04:33] Brandon Ware: clearly they’ve sold hundreds of thousands of this thing with two arms and then a thrusting component,
[00:04:39] Jess O’Reilly: but have they handled all of all of them? Priority handled
[00:04:42] Brandon Ware: according to their website. They absolutely have handled them all for you.
[00:04:45] Jess O’Reilly: They’ve also, if you’re, if you’ve been waiting to try some of those suction devices, Eve’s Ravishing Rose Pleaser is on there again, 50 percent off with our code, Dr.
[00:04:53] Jess O’Reilly: Jess 50. And they’ve got a range of different wands and curves and vibes, and it doesn’t apply to every single item, but many. Most of these items are included. Yeah. Eve was freaky. So check it out. Dr. Jess 50 at Adam and Eve. com.
[00:05:09] Brandon Ware: Amazing. Let’s go and tickle some stuff.
[00:05:16] Brandon Ware: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast.
[00:05:26] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.
[00:05:33] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, just the two of us here to talk. threesomes. This is part two to follow up from last week’s episode with Justin Lehmiller, and I think this is going to be an interesting discussion because we’re going to share two things.
[00:05:47] Jess O’Reilly: One is a set of conversations and reflections to consider before you have a threesome. Sort of the how to prepare. And also, I wanted to share a bunch of your responses on threesomes because I [00:06:00] received a gazillion. So I’m just going to read them at random. I’m not cherry picking them. I kind of just picked a whole bunch out totally at random because yeah, I’m fascinated by what other people have to say about their experiences or their desires.
[00:06:14] Jess O’Reilly: So I had put it out on my Instagram and asked folks who fantasizes about a threesome, who actually wants to have a threesome. And so, as we said last week, the data suggests that many people fantasize about a threesome, but not as many actually do it. And then somewhere in between, there are people who want to do it.
[00:06:29] Jess O’Reilly: But on my IG, and we had thousands of answers actually, 61 percent say they fantasize about having a threesome. 39 percent say they don’t. And then the numbers are pretty much aligned 59 percent say they want to have a threesome. And 41 percent say they don’t, you know, I thought there would be more of a differentiation between fantasy and desire, but for our followers, or at least the people who answered, it was just pretty much aligned, which is interesting to me.
[00:06:56] Brandon Ware: I would have thought that the number of people who desired a threesome would have been higher just because of its prevalence in the media and TV shows. It’s like everyone always. That’s the fantasy.
[00:07:07] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And, you know, according to Justin Laymiller’s research and research that came before it, you’re absolutely right.
[00:07:12] Jess O’Reilly: It’s in the higher, you know, 85, 89 percent range in terms of desire. I wonder too, though, if folks who maybe engage with my profile or, you know, followers. In our community also maybe a bit more reflective about what they want. So they’re not just watching porn and saying, oh, threesome. And I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong or basic about wanting a threesome.
[00:07:30] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with wanting to have a threesome. I definitely, it’s, you know, it’s a fantasy for me. It’s something that we’ve definitely explored together. But I just thought I’d throw that data out there. And then I’m gonna read through some of your responses, but before I do, I definitely want to announce.
[00:07:44] Jess O’Reilly: This exciting new sponsor with whom we’re working, and that is Love Honey. And you’re probably familiar with Love Honey because they have been in the business of sexual happiness for almost two decades, and I know that they were in the UK, but they’re really becoming a powerhouse [00:08:00] in Canada and the States as well, and obviously I know I work with many brands, but.
[00:08:04] Jess O’Reilly: Love Honey’s a bit of a standout for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, they recently received a couple of awards from the Queen of England. Right. Apparently. Queen’s getting her freak on? I guess so. You said it. I didn’t say it. You’re the Brit here. So. And secondly, they’ve actually been sponsoring my show on TSC all about sex toys.
[00:08:24] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ve become intimately familiar with Love Honey products. Uh, do you remember when the boxes arrived and the boxes were big enough for me to fit in? That’s how many sex toys we received. Boxes and boxes.
[00:08:33] Brandon Ware: copious amounts of sex toys thanks to Love, Honey. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a little ridiculous.
[00:08:39] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I loved it. I had to try them out. And it’s interesting because they seem to carry everything. Like, I have never actually seen such a diverse range of products. Everything from kind of high end brand name toys that you’ll be familiar with. from, you know, my other sponsors. So they carry everything.
[00:08:53] Jess O’Reilly: And they also carry like little tiny pocket sized travel toys with travel locks, which is really cool to me. Their Ignite line, they have lingerie and they have their own line of products, as well as the only 50 shades of gray licensed product line. And I thought I’d bring up one of those toys because it’s, it’s a bit of a standout in that.
[00:09:11] Jess O’Reilly: I haven’t seen a toy like this before and it is the greedy girl thrusting g spot vibe. And I was doing a demo of it on tv the other day and just watching this thing go is so cool. So it obviously has this bulbous head that curves against the g spot but it also is, I wish I could, it’s almost like a gentle spring, so it also thrusts on the inside, and then it has a curved clitoral arm for the outside, so it’s kind of got every single possibility.
[00:09:42] Brandon Ware: So it’s any partner’s perfect Toy because it removes any sort of additional responsibility to help the one partner get off,
[00:09:49] Jess O’Reilly: like lower the pressure. Yeah. And so they, they love honey as a big design team and they have, you know, a gazillion reviewers. I keep using that word, working on constantly improving their toys.
[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: So many of their [00:10:00] toys have. All these cool features, whether it’s, I keep going back to the travel locks and travel cases, because that’s really relevant to me since I’m carrying them in my suitcase. But I do highly recommend you check them out and you can check out the links in my show notes or just head to lovehoney.
[00:10:15] Jess O’Reilly: ca or lovehoney. com and you can use code DRJESS10 to save on, I think, pretty much… everything, which is a good deal because usually when there’s these promos, there are many, many exclusions, but this, this one is across the site. So do check them out. Love, honey. And we want to thank them for their support.
[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: And with that, it’s time to dive into threesomes. Let’s do it. All right. So last week we talked about the data with Justin Leigh Miller. And this week, I want to talk about considerations and conversations that make for better threesomes. And one thing that we continuously hear, and I think Justin said this, and I said this, and the research shows that when you prep for something, it’s almost always better, right?
[00:10:52] Jess O’Reilly: In terms of the building of anticipation, the excitement, the pleasure, and I think also just the outcome, right? When you’re prepared, it’s not just something you stumble into, you know, because you’ve been drinking in a hot tub.
[00:11:01] Brandon Ware: Yeah. The first time I heard about somebody talking about preparation was actually Luna Matadas at one of the trade shows.
[00:11:08] Brandon Ware: And she was commenting on preparing for King play and having discussions with your partner. And it wasn’t something that I had really thought about before, but when. Luna was explaining it. It made so much sense. You have this open conversation from the beginning. Everyone explains what it is they’re hoping to achieve, what they want to get out of it.
[00:11:28] Brandon Ware: And more importantly, what are we going to do after the sex or the play? Is done, which I just, you think about a threesome and I immediately go to pop culture. People are at a party, people have probably been consuming too much alcohol or whatever and then it happens and then it’s done. But when you think about planning everything and then, okay, who are you staying for food after?
[00:11:49] Brandon Ware: Are you spending the night? Are you leaving? What do you want to get out of it? It could make the whole experience so much better.
[00:11:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, the afterglow or the aftercare is so important and you know, it’s interesting you think about a [00:12:00] party. I think about couples unicorn hunting because that’s who I hear from so often.
[00:12:05] Jess O’Reilly: Couples who want to find a third and the messaging from couples is pretty consistent and also very Predictable and fair. I understand that, you know, when you have something good, you want to preserve it. And so then you want to prioritize it. But in doing so, I think a lot of us, and I think we’ve been guilty of this in the past, don’t really acknowledge and deal with our own privilege as a couple, right?
[00:12:28] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that it’s so easy for a couple to say, Oh, we want to find a third person who will do this and do that. They have this laundry list of wants and demands. But they aren’t really always thinking about the third person. So I think that’s a really important piece that, you know, a threesome isn’t just about adding a third into your existing partnership or play.
[00:12:45] Jess O’Reilly: It involves creating a whole new three way dynamic and connection. And this doesn’t mean that you all have to play or interact in the same way or it needs to be perfectly equal, but you want to attend to the feelings and needs and boundaries and desires. of all parties, right? And having that laundry list of wants and demands from couples is a complaint that we hear from unicorns.
[00:13:05] Jess O’Reilly: And by the way, a unicorn is a single person who will hook up with a couple. Oftentimes it’s a cis woman. Oftentimes they’re expected to be bisexual. Of course, that is not always the case, but that focus on the couple or even the focus solely on one person’s pleasure, right? Like my husband wants this, or my wife wants that.
[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: It can make them feel like they’re being used like a prop, like physically being used like a prop or treated like a sex object, right? No affection, no conversation. And I think it’s important that if you are checking in with your partner, like your primary partner, if you’re a part of a couple, that you’re also checking in with this third person, right?
[00:13:39] Jess O’Reilly: Really showing concern for their… emotional and physical needs and other things we, I’ve heard from unicorns in terms of complaints is they don’t want to be hunted aggressively, right? When they’re just being kind of bombarded with messages as though you’re shooting fish in a barrel. Again, it feels very objectifying.
[00:13:53] Jess O’Reilly: And the last complaint I’ve, I’ve heard from unicorns is that they get outed without permission. Couples will sort of use them as a trophy [00:14:00] head and say like, we did this, we, we were with this person when they’re not ready to be outed. So I think it’s just really important that we think about. all three people creating this new dynamic as opposed to it simply being something for the couple.
[00:14:13] Brandon Ware: I mean, I would say that you don’t have to think about the unicorn if you’re willing to pay a sex worker and have the discussion in advance.
[00:14:21] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, you still have to think about them, but yes, it’s not in the same way. I
[00:14:24] Brandon Ware: didn’t mean don’t think about them. But what I mean is you don’t necessarily have to, you know, if you’re clear about you just want to focus on your own pleasure or the pleasure of your partner and not that of the sex worker, could you not then?
[00:14:35] Jess O’Reilly: Make that request and pay for it.
[00:14:36] Brandon Ware: Make that request from the beginning and pay for it.
[00:14:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. But while also always acknowledging I think the humanity and the emotional experience of everybody involved, that’s another actually topic I’d love to cover in how we can, how folks who engage sex workers can make sure that they’re being really good clients.
[00:14:52] Jess O’Reilly: And I know we talked about that in the past with Andrea War Hunt from Modern Horror, and I thought her tips were really helpful as well. So I just kind of wanted to put that out there first and foremost, the piece around acknowledging couples privilege and doing something about it. And also, I’m not trying to make people feel guilty.
[00:15:06] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t have to feel badly. You don’t have to feel guilty. It is natural to want to preserve your relationship. It is natural to want to prioritize your own needs and the needs of someone you already know and love. We just have to remember that this is a whole new dynamic. And so I would love to read some of the responses I got around threesomes from folks, and it’s just this huge range of perspectives about whether or not folks want to have a threesome.
[00:15:29] Jess O’Reilly: So one person says, I’m not going to say any names, it’s the greatest gift to give the one you love. Pleasure. Okay. Someone else says, I’m I want to try both MMF and FMF, I think there’s a lot to learn about sex from both. This guy says, if I want to disappoint two people, I’ll just have dinner with my parents.
[00:15:50] Jess O’Reilly: I got a lot of messages from folks who said that they’ve had them and they’re kind of overhyped. This person says, I’ve had them and either I’m so concerned about making sure everyone involved [00:16:00] is happy or I’m the one left out. So it can be kind of hard to engage three people. This guy says, I need to find someone who can last as long as I can so that she can enjoy two guys the same length of time.
[00:16:10] Jess O’Reilly: That’s interesting. So for some people, I’m sure that’s true. For me, that wouldn’t be true at all. Like the lasting, I presume that means like erection prior to ejaculation. I know I make it sound so sexy. Um, I’d be less concerned about how long like that lasts because there’s lots of other things to be done.
[00:16:24] Jess O’Reilly: Somebody says, I’ve done it many times. It’s fascinating. Love when both the girls suck. And then smooches each other. Okay. If you’re in a couple, make sure you debrief after each time and share any newly discovered limits. Okay, good one. You might not know your limits the first time, so use each experience as a learning op.
[00:16:43] Jess O’Reilly: True, true, true. Couple people just said, I love threesomes. I love threesomes. Asking me if I want to have a threesome with you. No thanks. And then just reminders that threesomes can be fantastic, sensual time, but everyone should talk first and get comfortable. Another person says, yes, it’s my dream fantasy to have a threesome.
[00:16:59] Jess O’Reilly: It can be MFF, MMF, love to explore sex always. Some folks are asking how they can convince their wife. And I’ll suggest you go back to previous podcasts about how you don’t convince somebody, you present and discuss. This person says, I’m not sure I could handle that. I’m monogamous and sex is highly emotional for me.
[00:17:17] Jess O’Reilly: So I think it’s really good that he knows his limits. Some folks say it needs to be planned and agreed upon first as to who is doing what. And we’ll get to some of those questions. Ooh, this person says, three months postpartum. I had my virgin threesome with two men, double penetration. And then they just wrote, fun.
[00:17:36] Brandon Ware: They went, they went for it.
[00:17:38] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. I love it.
[00:17:39] Brandon Ware: That’s impressive.
[00:17:40] Jess O’Reilly: This person says, I feel it will ruin things in the long run. Fair enough. And that may be the case for some people. Sorry, they added more. I can’t handle the thought of my wife with another man, and I’m sure the same for her. So it’s good that you, again, know your limits.
[00:17:52] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t have to do everything. A bunch of people just wrote, It’s overrated. There’s a lot going on. I always feel like I need to process a lot after, and like I wasn’t [00:18:00] fully. Present. That really makes sense to me. Like just the overwhelming physical interactions sometimes can be too much.
[00:18:08] Brandon Ware: Yeah, there’s a lot of comments about, I mean, the initial few comments, people wanting to make sure that all parties were pleased.
[00:18:14] Brandon Ware: I think that’s really, it’s just a much more. thought through process that I don’t think I would have been as focused on if I was doing it for the first time.
[00:18:22] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. It can be very distracting, right? Like I hear from a lot of, you know, cis men, for example, who say that they lose their erection in their first threesome because there’s just too much going on and too much pressure.
[00:18:33] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I could totally see that being the case. And there’s just, I did like the response about wanting to disappoint two people going for dinner. That was great.
[00:18:42] Jess O’Reilly: With their parents.
[00:18:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:18:43] Jess O’Reilly: So this person says that they used to plan threesomes earlier on in the relationship, but later they started to enjoy them.
[00:18:48] Jess O’Reilly: When they were more random and unexpected. So maybe with experience you can change the way you interact. I don’t think I could handle seeing my partner being intimate with another person. I’m too insecure. That’s fair. And it may not be insecurity. It might just be your own values. A lot of people commenting on communication.
[00:19:03] Jess O’Reilly: Somebody says the Eiffel tower is the best part of the threesome. That’s the sex position. I’ve been there, done that, was fun, but not something I’d consider again. If I was single, I would do it, but my fiance would not. Can you do it with friends? Can you do it with a stranger? So I’m going to suggest you go back to the previous podcast in terms of the data around who people are having threesomes with.
[00:19:22] Jess O’Reilly: Um, somebody says it’s a teenage goal. It’s overhyped experience. It’s fun 100%, but not life altering by any means. I would say that’s kind of my… experience as well. They say most men, it’s their holy grail. They want two women. This person says having sex with two people means overflowing with pleasure. I get totally lost in the moment.
[00:19:41] Jess O’Reilly: It’s absolute bliss. This person, this was a unicorn that says I didn’t like having a threesome with a couple. I wasn’t attracted to the guy at all. And then somebody says, I’m very insecure. I need to work on that first. It’s not where I need to be with my partner yet. Yeah, and I just want to say that you, you know, we all are varying degrees of insecure.
[00:19:59] Jess O’Reilly: Like one [00:20:00] day I might be fine with something and another I might feel really uncomfortable with it. And so you don’t have to necessarily work on that. I mean, if you generally are feeling insecure. To care. Sure, maybe you wanna work on that, but I don’t want there to be any pressure. So then there’s just a whole bunch more about preparing in advance, talking in advance, talking after.
[00:20:16] Jess O’Reilly: And then a lot of people who have done it saying it’s overhyped. So maybe I should put some, uh, polling out on that. Was it really hot or was it really worth it? So I just wanted to share some of that kind of raw notes from the community on threesomes. Before we get into, now, you know why we here, which is some of the questions that I think you can consider either on your own.
[00:20:32] Jess O’Reilly: with a partner with all three people before having a threesome. So I’m just going to go through them and starting really broadly with, why do you want to have a threesome? Because every damn group I work with, every group in the world, always, always, always people are asking me about threesomes. Like my data is 100%.
[00:20:47] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t think I’ve ever done a workshop where I don’t get an anonymous question about threesomes, always. And so my first question is, well, why do you want to do it? Like what appeals to you? about it sexually, physically, relationally, practically. So that’s, I think, an open ended question. So why do you want to do it?
[00:21:01] Jess O’Reilly: What benefits are you hoping to derive from it? Uh, what are the perceived risks and costs? I know people who have put together kind of a cost benefit analysis table. Uh, that’s how I think, so that works for me. I know that’s not everybody’s cup of tea. With whom would you like to have a threesome? Like, have you thought about that?
[00:21:18] Jess O’Reilly: Do you want it to be a stranger? Do you want it to be a friend? Do you want to engage Do you know if that person or those people are open to it. How might your relationship with your threesome mates change post threesome? What excites you most about a threesome? What motivates you? What concerns you? Do you have any hesitations?
[00:21:37] Jess O’Reilly: What emotional elements of a threesome have you considered? Because you heard in our community response that a lot of people talked about insecurity. There were also some notes on jealousy and all those things are fine. It’s okay to feel jealous. It’s okay to feel insecure. That happens and we can’t entirely avoid.
[00:21:52] Jess O’Reilly: negative emotions. And in fact, for some people, those emotions can become turn ons in a threesome. How will you manage potentially challenging emotions should they [00:22:00] arise? So like, what if I do feel jealous? Does it mean that it’s devastating? Does it mean that it adversely affects our relationship? Or do I just say, yeah, I feel a little jealous about that.
[00:22:08] Jess O’Reilly: I’m going to kind of file that for later and maybe go through it. at a later time? Or do I know that when I feel jealous, I become so physiologically flooded that I’m just going to freak out and run away, right? So how do you tend to respond to these, these feelings? Do you feel comfortable communicating your desires and boundaries, right?
[00:22:25] Jess O’Reilly: Like what holds you back? Are you good at this? Do you know what you want? How do you want to feel in the threesome? That’s always my big question for people, right? Like what is it you want to feel? What conditions? Increase your comfort with open communication. I think that’s a really important one, especially as you’re engaging with new people or a new person.
[00:22:43] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, what makes you comfortable communicating your boundaries? Are there certain triggers that stop you from speaking up? Uh, what does your ideal threesome entail? Right? Like, what is the setting? What is the type of relationship dynamic? Who’s involved? Specifically, what are the sex acts you want to engage in?
[00:22:59] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Like, we’re barely kind of scratching the surface here. What are the things you want to do with your hands? What are the things you want to do with your genitals? What are the things you want to do with your mouth? What are the things you want to do with toys? Where do you want to do it? How do you want?
[00:23:12] Jess O’Reilly: all parties involved? Like, will two people play while one person watches and touches themselves? Or do you want all three people somehow physically engaged? Like, would you feel left out if, I don’t know, they were genital to oral or genital to genital and you were, I don’t know, just playing with their hair or their toes or their chest or whatever it may be?
[00:23:30] Jess O’Reilly: I think we have to think about those specific things. I’m not saying you can plan it out and then it’s going to go exactly as planned, but if you can at least think about Best and worst case scenario, it can help you to decide your desires and boundaries and communicate them. And I think it’s just really important to, to remember that it’s okay to experience a range of emotions.
[00:23:48] Brandon Ware: When you’re asking these questions, I’m thinking about my own situation, what, you know, I’m comfortable with and not comfortable with. And it’s so interesting because as you’re talking through this, number one, all of these questions can. in [00:24:00] themselves become arousing and fantasizing like it’s, it creates a bit of a fantasy just having that conversation.
[00:24:06] Brandon Ware: But you had also made reference to, you know, how would you feel if you saw your partner for the first time and you felt uncomfortable, jealous, or any of those things. And I think even just mentally thinking about that situation kind of, for me, puts me into that situation so that I can think about.
[00:24:21] Brandon Ware: Initiating those feelings so that I can see how I respond rather than just boom, being in the situation and then all of a sudden being flooded with those emotions. So it’s almost for me a bit of a teaser in advance to be like, Oh, you know what? I’m thinking about this, you with somebody else. And yeah, I’m, I’m feeling a little jealous or I’m feeling insecure.
[00:24:40] Brandon Ware: So now I’ve put myself there and I’m already gauging how I respond, which I think would be a really helpful role playing scenario.
[00:24:47] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and you’re thinking about it from, like, definitely a coupled perspective because that’s, that’s our experience. But these questions are for everybody, right? So even if you don’t know the two people you’re playing with, you can still feel jealous, right?
[00:24:59] Jess O’Reilly: You can easily feel as though you’re not getting enough attention. You can easily feel as though you’re the third wheel. And so again, I go back to, okay, so what’s the consequence of that? Like, if I don’t get enough attention, is it the end of the world, or do I just feel a little off in this moment? Maybe I lose interest in the threesome.
[00:25:15] Jess O’Reilly: Like, what do I do if I’m no longer turned on because I’m not having my emotional needs fed? And so I think, for couples, I would add some additional questions. So we had, you know, 10, at least 10 there to begin with, which take a while to get through, but if you are in a couple, you want to kind of think about, okay, so how do you anticipate the threesome affecting your interactions with one another?
[00:25:33] Jess O’Reilly: How will you support one another before, during, and after the experience? How will you make sure you support the third party before, during, and after the experience? How will you make sure that you really think about this new dynamic and you don’t just prioritize yourselves? And how will you check in with one another during the threesome?
[00:25:50] Jess O’Reilly: How will you check in with the third, right? And it can be simple questions, like for example, you know, I’m trying to think if we’re gonna play with a group of three people, whether it’s a couple and a single or just [00:26:00] three people coming together, a question like, how will I know if you’re liking it, right?
[00:26:03] Jess O’Reilly: Or what will you do if you want more? Or you know, what are some cues I can look for in your body to let me know that something feels good? Or in the moment, it can be as simple as, do you like that? Like do you want more of that? Do you want less of that? Here or there? Just kind of giving people options and not assuming and actually threesomes must be a really interesting one and I gotta say like I’ve observed this so many times because again all of our models of sex come from porn but especially threesomes.
[00:26:31] Jess O’Reilly: Most people haven’t seen a lot of threesomes. People act really porny, right? I don’t know if you do not remember that from seeing that at parties and clubs like people being a little bit over the top, performative, and I want to be really clear, that’s not a criticism, because if that gets you off, then by all means, go for it.
[00:26:48] Jess O’Reilly: But what I’m trying to say is that, don’t assume that what they do in porn is what you need to do in your threesome, right? Because we have to remember, porn is a visual medium. It’s not a physical one, it’s partially audio, but they’re not focused necessarily on what the actors and performers are feeling.
[00:27:04] Jess O’Reilly: They’re focused on what it looks like for the camera. So even the way the three bodies set up, it’s so that you can see angles and perspectives that the camera likes. And in real life, you don’t have to worry about a camera unless you’re into that.
[00:27:16] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, for me, porn is where I learned, I’ve saw other people having sex.
[00:27:21] Brandon Ware: So my being, when I was younger, the way I responded was based on what I saw in porn because I didn’t know on my own how it was supposed to respond.
[00:27:29] Jess O’Reilly: So were you like a jackhammerer?
[00:27:30] Brandon Ware: Uh, yeah, definitely. When I was younger, it was just like, I’m going to go as fast and as hard as I can, because that’s what I saw.
[00:27:38] Brandon Ware: And clearly I’ve learned. For me, that doesn’t always have to be the way that it needs to go. But I’ve learned that over time, and I’ve learned that by also picking up on cues on how your body responds. So you asked some great questions, which is when you speak to your partner or that individual or the people that you’re having this threesome with, it’s like, what cues can I pick up on?
[00:27:56] Brandon Ware: But it all goes back to having that conversation in advance, which frankly, [00:28:00] for me, would almost feel unnatural before you even had sex. Sex is supposed to be the spontaneous thing that happens as opposed to a planned situation.
[00:28:07] Jess O’Reilly: But what if it’s more playful than that? Like, what if you go for dinner, for example?
[00:28:11] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, and that’s something you want to talk about as well. Like, are you just getting together for the sex or is there going to be dinner before or drinks after or snuggling after? And, you know, I’ve heard from unicorns who say that, you know, when they are with a couple, they want to feel cared for, right?
[00:28:24] Jess O’Reilly: Just like you want to snuggle after, they may want to snuggle after.
[00:28:27] Brandon Ware: I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying. I, I do very much like the idea of having the conversation in advance.
[00:28:34] Jess O’Reilly: So couldn’t you make it playful at dinner or even via text, like, what are you into? Like, what is it you want to try or what’s your ultimate fantasy or what turns you on?
[00:28:43] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that playfulness. can be a really hot discussion. So it’s not necessarily sitting at a boardroom table and going through a checklist of, yes, I accept pinky fingers in my bum, but not thumbs. I accept two fingers in the vaginal canal, but not three. I love when you play with my right nostril, but not my left nostril.
[00:29:00] Jess O’Reilly: Like it doesn’t have to be so regimented, although it can be too. Like for me, that wouldn’t bother me at all. I’d be happy to go through a checklist with you.
[00:29:07] Brandon Ware: No, I just like the idea of even the dinner or drinks or whatever it is that you’re doing in advance can be the foreplay, like it can be the lead up, the buildup.
[00:29:17] Brandon Ware: So, you know, for those that hour or two or however long. It’s anticipatory, right? Like you’re already getting riled up for what will come.
[00:29:25] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And you’re getting to know one another, right? Like you’re picking up on one another’s vibes. Uh, you’re picking up on their communication style. And we, you, I think we see this all the time.
[00:29:33] Jess O’Reilly: Um, not just for threesomes, but for any kind of group exchange. So for example, when we’ve. We’re places where couples are hooking up with one another, you know, you’ll see couples go to dinner and then they often, you know, go dancing after. And then maybe they, if there’s a hot tub, I don’t know why there’s always a hot tub involved, but there’s always a hot tub for these situations.
[00:29:52] Jess O’Reilly: They like go to the hot tub and hang out. And then it’s, it’s literally hours of building and conversation and getting to know them [00:30:00] before you actually. Get down to anything physical. Do you notice that?
[00:30:03] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And, and you know what, it creates some connection. It creates an environment. Like I said, the, the buildup, it’s a lot of fun.
[00:30:11] Brandon Ware: You made reference to something earlier and I’m just reflecting on it now. The idea of a notch on the belt or being just another, like another. And when I’ve had people approach me or us, and I felt like that’s all it is where question, you know, somebody approaches you, says something and then is like, Oh, you’re not interested.
[00:30:28] Brandon Ware: Boom on to somebody else. I’ve. I’ve been like, oh, okay. So yeah, that was, I mean, again, that was just my response, but it was like, yeah, that didn’t really feel that great.
[00:30:38] Jess O’Reilly: Like you’re, they’re only into, they won’t even have a conversation with you unless there’s a chance that you’re going to have sex with them.
[00:30:45] Brandon Ware: Humor me for five minutes, have a conversation.
[00:30:47] Jess O’Reilly: Well, that’s, it’s interesting because you probably don’t experience that much as a guy, but as a woman. We get treated like that by men all the time. Yeah. Right? Like if we’re not giving them what they want, they’re not gonna kind of quote unquote waste their time on us.
[00:31:00] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that’s a sociocultural… I guess norm around sex that you, you just are working to get to one specific goal and there isn’t the rest of the human interaction and connection and I do have a previous episode with Luna Matadas a long time ago where she talks about how unicorns are so often treated that way.
[00:31:21] Jess O’Reilly: Right? It’s just like they’re being hunted so hard. And so I think that’s something for all of us to keep in mind. Like, I will tell you, I remember when I think I was like 20 years old and I had first met you and I like we had talked about threesomes and I admit my only thought was how do we make sure we do this in a way that preserves our relationship?
[00:31:38] Jess O’Reilly: How do we find someone who’s a fit for us? Like nothing on my mind was about well, what? What kind of person, like how do I want to make them feel? What, what are they into? Um, and it was all like fantasy anyway. But I, I think that it’s just an important piece to remember that there’s all this privilege that exists within a couple.
[00:31:56] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s obviously not only when it comes to threesomes. It has to do with taxation. It [00:32:00] has to do with income. It has to do with how we live. That’s why it’s always my rule that if a third party comes out with us, like if one of my friends comes for dinner, I’m like, no, no, no, we pay. If there’s two of us, we always pay.
[00:32:10] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know. We have dual income. Even though some of my friends have partners at home. It’s just kind of the way I think.
[00:32:15] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I, I, I agree. I mean, the, the focus has shifted over time and I think it’s more of a, I see the human in you, which is, I want to be nice to you. I want to make sure that you’re taken care of.
[00:32:25] Brandon Ware: And like you said, if we go for, for dinner with somebody, I guess that I’ve taken your lead on that, which is if you’re, if a friend or a third person comes along.
[00:32:34] Jess O’Reilly: We’re going to, I mean, my lead is always pay.
[00:32:36] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:32:37] Jess O’Reilly: I hate being paid for like always pay. Um, and so as we have these conversations, right, and there are so many considerations here, starting with the very broad about why you want to have a threesome and how you want to feel in a threesome to the very specific, right?
[00:32:51] Jess O’Reilly: Like, are you willing to play with the anus? Are you willing to put your tongue here? What is it that you want to do very specifically? I think I also want to offer the reminder that. Most people don’t have threesomes, right? We talked about that data last week, and there are lots of different things you can do, even with these conversations, to kind of facilitate threesome light.
[00:33:12] Jess O’Reilly: Um, with a partner, whether it’s a long term partner or any sex partner, you know, simply just talking about it in bed, right, like talking about what it’s going to feel like, talking about the things you want to do, talking about the people you want to do it with, uh, and that can be very intimidating and very overwhelming.
[00:33:27] Jess O’Reilly: And as you said, that can give you a taste of how you might actually feel in the moment. And you might say, okay, I can push myself far enough where this is a huge turn on because of the risk, because of the jealousy, because, and I’m not that everybody feels jealous. I’m just saying, that’s okay. common experience that the jealousy can be a bit of a turn on on both ends, uh, and just talking about it.
[00:33:46] Jess O’Reilly: And that can give you an indication of whether or not you actually want to go through with it. Uh, there can also be kind of that teasing when you’re out in public, right? Like, um, talking about how you’re going to go talk to someone or maybe flirting with someone in a. [00:34:00] respectful way that you’re not leading them on or being untoward.
[00:34:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I know that flirting really varies from culture to culture, like some of our cultures, flirting is very, very open and normalized. And for others, flirting is something that we’re, we have to be a bit more careful with. Um, it could just be watching a threesome on film, like watching a scene and talking about what you want to do and how you want to do it and how you want to insert yourselves.
[00:34:23] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, some people are having virtual threesomes, right? Interacting with a cam model. In a private room and making sure you pay them generously for their work. It could be that you roleplay, right? So maybe I blindfold you and I play with like my hands and my tongue in a toy and I, I make it so that you can’t physically differentiate between, you know, whose hands are on you, right?
[00:34:42] Jess O’Reilly: I talk about how, how I’m gonna share you and how we’re gonna please you. And, uh, the nice thing about fantasy is that you actually don’t have to consider Anybody’s feelings except for the people in the room, right? So no, you know, you don’t have to worry about somebody else’s emotional needs. You don’t have to worry about whether you hang out after, right?
[00:34:57] Jess O’Reilly: The role play allows it to be whoever’s in the room at the time. Um, for some people, you can go watch threesomes. Like, I mean, I, I really have seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of threesomes or group situations. I’m not like counting them and I don’t, for me, whether there’s three of you or four of you or five of you, it’s kind of the same, same jam.
[00:35:14] Jess O’Reilly: Except for that whole couple plus one dynamic, which you have to be aware of. So even just going to a place where threesomes are happening, like a sex club, and not being a part of them, but being just in the vicinity of them, uh, and of course doing it respectfully. There are places where it’s meant to be exhibitionist and voyeuristic, and there are places where people are looking for privacy, right?
[00:35:33] Jess O’Reilly: Like if they’ve tied the curtains around a four poster bed, you’re not going to peek through the little slot. But they, you know, there are. Sex clubs with rooms where there is a, is it a one way mirror? So where you’re intended, where you know you’re going to be watched. Um, it could be that you don’t want to have a physical threesome with a third party, but maybe you just want to engage some watching.
[00:35:55] Jess O’Reilly: It could be that you go for an erotic massage and you [00:36:00] can choose to make it non genital. Right? It can just be erotic. And again, when you are working with professionals, please, you know, show the utmost respect. Learn everything you can. Uh, go back and listen to the Modern Whore episode of this podcast with Andrea Warhun for some perspective on how to honor and really show appreciation for sex workers.
[00:36:17] Jess O’Reilly: And of course, one, the number one way is to show your financial generosity because that’s why they’re there. Pay. Pay. A lot. Pay a lot. Tip a lot. Tip heavy. So we’ve spent two weeks on threesomes, which we don’t usually do. We don’t usually split the episodes, but I wanted to leave you with this. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to put the questions for consideration in The podcast notes, because I have some additional ones for you to consider as well.
[00:36:42] Jess O’Reilly: Some questions, not only on why you want to have a threesome, but also how you’re going to deal with distressful emotions, right? Like, are you comfortable admitting to jealousy, insecurity, distress, what makes you feel? jealous, insecure, and distressed. When you feel jealous, insecure, or distressed, how does it show up in your body?
[00:36:59] Jess O’Reilly: Um, what do you want to do in those cases? How can you self soothe? How can a partner or partners support you? What do you want them not to do? Uh, what are some cues to look for? in partners if you are feeling those emotions. So I’m going to put that questionnaire up there as well, as well as a specific questionnaire for couples.
[00:37:19] Jess O’Reilly: And I didn’t want to spend all the time on that today, but I can kind of quickly go through it before we wrap up. This is a questionnaire for couples to kind of moderate the Threesome within the context of the relationship. So whose idea was it? Do you feel any pressure? Have you indirectly or directly pressured your partner?
[00:37:37] Jess O’Reilly: What do you hope to get out of the experience? What are your concerns about the experience? What would it look like if it goes well? What happens if something goes awry? Like how will you communicate? How will you respond? How will you manage it within the context of your relationship with one another?
[00:37:51] Jess O’Reilly: What do you value in a third party, right? What type of person do you want to connect with? How do you feel about strangers, acquaintances, friends, sex workers? And what are you going to [00:38:00] do about your couple’s privilege? Like, how are you going to make sure that all voices and all desires are heard? and respected.
[00:38:07] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that there are questions that we can all consider and then there are some that are specific to couples. So I’m going to put those three questionnaires in the show notes, the general questionnaire for threesomes, the one specifically on jealousy, insecurity, and distress, and one specifically for couples to navigate with one another.
[00:38:24] Jess O’Reilly: And you can find those in the show notes at sexwithdrjess. com in the podcast section. So with that, We are going to wrap. Before I do, I want to say thank you again to Love Honey. They’ve been, as I said, in the business for many years. Awards from the Queen of England, and like Brandon said, I guess she’s freaky and knows her stuff.
[00:38:41] Jess O’Reilly: So do check out Love Honey online. We’ll put the links in the notes, but also you can use code DRJESS10 to save on pretty much any toy in the business. They’ve got them all. Uh, thanks so much, babe, for, for chatting with me today, and thank you folks for a brand new episode. You’re listening to the Sex with Dr.
[00:39:01] Jess O’Reilly: Jess podcast. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.
[00:39:08] Jess O’Reilly: And don’t forget to check out adamandeve. com. Use code DRJESS50 to save 50 percent off almost any single item with free shipping and free rush handling. Gotta go get them. And I was checking out some of the, they’re guarantees. So you can actually go ahead and try out these toys and if you don’t like them, you can return them.
[00:39:25] Jess O’Reilly: Up to three months, 90 days after purchase for a credit or a full refund. They’ve got a phone number on their website, adamandeve. com, and they want to hear from you if you’re not happy, because they are all about your satisfaction, so go get them, go get off and have a great one.
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All About Threesomes
28 sep 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Most people fantasize about threesomes, but not many people – actually dive in. In part I of our Threesomes podcast, we dive into the data and get some practical advice from Justin Lehmiller – who answers your questions including:
How common are threesomes?What counts as a threesome?How does a threesome affect relationships for couples?Who is having threesomes?How do people find threesomes (e.g. through apps like Feeld)?Whatâ€™s the appeal of threesomes?
Next week, weâ€™ll dive into how to prep for a threesome with prompts, conversations and more!
Save with code PODCAST on the Mindful Sex Course on the Happier Couples website.
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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
All About Threesomes
Episode 336
[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are talking threesomes today and we are doing a throwback to a two part series with Dr. Justin Lehmiller on the doc today, because I received three questions about threesomes over the weekend and I think it’s a sign. So here we go. Have a listen to this throwback with Dr. Justin Lehmiller.
[00:00:27] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.
[00:00:45] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are talking threesomes today and it fits that today’s episode is brought to you by FIELD. And FIELD is the first dating app for couples and singles. They’re a pioneer in allowing couples to kind of explore dating together as a pair, and they’re open to all genders, all sexual identities,
[00:01:13] Jess O’Reilly: all sexual orientations from basically for anyone who’s interested in either ethical non monogamy or alternative relationship structures, or simply those who are curious and looking to kind of dip their toe into the pond. So do check them out. Field is spelt feel and a D so F E E L D and you can download the field app.
[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: It’s free and you create a profile. And once you have liked someone and they’ve liked you back on the app. You become connections and you’re able to chat. And if you want to, you can share photos and they also often offer an upgraded membership option with extra features. And yeah, so do check out FIELD.
[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: They’re one of the largest online communities for fun stuff like this. And it’s interesting. I actually came across FIELD in my research a few years ago. when I was prepping a training for therapists on threesomes and ethical non monogamy and they really are the [00:02:00] perfect partner for this podcast because we’re talking about threesomes and of course there are people on field looking for threesomes and later we’re going to be talking with their expert Dr.
[00:02:08] Jess O’Reilly: Justin Leigh. But before he joins us, I wanted to kind of dig into some of the data on threesomes. And later on, I also want to talk if we have time about how to prepare for a threesome, like in terms of communication and reflection and just topics to address before you start exploring. I don’t know how much time we’ll have.
[00:02:27] Jess O’Reilly: I might have to split it into a couple episodes, but we will get there. It’s interesting because when you think about. Threesomes. Don’t you think porn has kind of made threesomes seem like, like they’re the norm. Everybody’s doing them. Yeah, I mean when
[00:02:38] Brandon Ware: I think about threesomes, it’s, that’s exactly what I go to.
[00:02:41] Brandon Ware: I think about, boom, somebody shows up and then all of a sudden, like, the, the mayhem
[00:02:46] Jess O’Reilly: begins. Yeah, people with long nails are sticking them in all the holes they can find. And, and of course, the reality is that Although most people fantasize about a threesome at some point in time, most people are not actually having them.
[00:02:59] Jess O’Reilly: And when you look at the data, some of it actually doesn’t align. So there, there’s not, you know, a wealth and wealth of data in this area, but there’s a study by Thompson and Byers. I think it was from 2017, if I recall correctly. They were looking at young people, young heterosexual people. It was a convenient sample, so not necessarily representative.
[00:03:17] Jess O’Reilly: And what they found was that 64 percent are interested in having a threesome. So 82 percent of men, 31 percent of women, and of course the research unfortunately only looked at the binary. But that, you know, 64 percent interest only translates into 24 percent of men saying they’ve had a threesome and 8 percent of women.
[00:03:36] Jess O’Reilly: say they’ve had one. So, the split for men, 18 percent say they’ve had FFM, so woman, woman, man. 8 percent of men say they’ve had an MMF. Of the women who say they’ve had a threesome, 7 percent say they’ve had two women and a guy. 5 percent say they’ve had two guys and a woman, and just something doesn’t align here, right?
[00:03:57] Jess O’Reilly: If 18 percent of men have been with two [00:04:00] women, Shouldn’t more than 7 percent of women have also reported having an FFM threesome? Maybe I’ll ask Dr. Lehmiller about this. And then there was another study that was nationally representative. So this was a probability sample and they found that the interest in engaging in a threesome.
[00:04:14] Jess O’Reilly: So interest is different than fantasy, right? So you can have the fantasy, but you don’t actually want to do it. The interest for men was 31. 4%. And for women, it was 11. 1. The experience for men. So about 18%. have had a threesome and about 10 percent of women had had a threesome. And this was a broader age range, but I want to note that among younger women, so 25 to 29, 18 percent said that they’ve had one.
[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: So we’ve got some prevalence. I thought I’d just kind of start with that in case people are curious. I, I also wanted to talk a little bit briefly about the reasons why people want to have threesomes and they’re so highly varied, right? So number one, I do think that there is pressure or the shaping of norms because of porn, right?
[00:04:57] Jess O’Reilly: Like, it just seems like that’s what you do when you have sex. Other people say that they want it because they want that attention and the worship and, you know, to be physically overwhelmed. For some people I hear they want it because just it’s exciting, it’s risky, it’s novel. Some people want to do it for the power, right?
[00:05:13] Jess O’Reilly: For the validation. to know that they can. And I find that with my clients so often because I just, because of the demographic I work with, like, so many people who are A type and, you know, feel successful along the lines of our sociocultural norms of success. And so they want to also have done this to say they have to kind of check the box.
[00:05:31] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s an interesting one because oftentimes when it’s just to check a box, they don’t enjoy it that much. It’s like this really hot thing that they think is going to be hot, but in reality it’s just kind of another. Another sexual experience that can be hot or may not be that hot. Interestingly, I hear from people who want to do it in service to their partner.
[00:05:48] Jess O’Reilly: So not because they feel pressure from a partner. Not because they feel they need to do it to preserve the relationship. Because they’re like, my partner wants to do this and I don’t mind doing it. I’m kind of indifferent. I’m neutral. [00:06:00] And in some of those cases what’s so interesting is that sometimes the partner who goes in neutral ends up enjoying it more.
[00:06:05] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s an interesting dynamic to discuss. And then finally, there are, of course, cases where people are having threesomes to safeguard the self, to preserve the relationship in maybe not, in not such a positive way, where it’s like, my partner really wants to do this, they’re pressuring me to do it, and they kind of get led to water, and it’s maybe not something that they wanted to do in the first place, and oftentimes, you know, that, that doesn’t work out.
[00:06:27] Jess O’Reilly: A big question I get about threesomes is whom to have a threesome with. So if we were to have a threesome, threesome with? Like who would you want it to be with? Someone you know, an acquaintance, someone not, like someone we pay, something like, what would be your preference?
[00:06:38] Brandon Ware: So you’re putting me on the spot because you’re looking over at me.
[00:06:40] Brandon Ware: I think the idea of doing it with a friend or somebody that you know to me just adds more pressure because you’re probably going to see that person again, and if the experience isn’t what every single person wanted it to be, I think it would be a bit of an awkward situation. So Right now, I think it makes the most sense to pay a sex worker to, uh, engage in this fantasy.
[00:07:02] Brandon Ware: I think the first time that makes the most sense to me.
[00:07:05] Jess O’Reilly: Hmm.
[00:07:05] Brandon Ware: Do you feel the same or do you feel?
[00:07:07] Jess O’Reilly: Um, yeah, I, I kind of, I like the idea of that. That there isn’t the same pressure. That, you know, you don’t have to, you know, see each other over and over again. It’s interesting because some of the research shows that men actually prefer friends and acquaintances.
[00:07:20] Jess O’Reilly: And women, it depends on whether they are having a threesome as part of a couple or if they are a third party joining a couple. So if, the research shows that if women are part of a couple and they’re going to have a third join them, they want a stranger. And what I’ve heard from some people is that they see it as less of a threat to the relationship.
[00:07:37] Jess O’Reilly: And the same thing that you just just described to reduce the awkwardness and then if the woman, however, is the third party joining either a couple or two others, they are more interested in friends and acquaintances. So I think it maybe varies on your role within the threesome.
[00:07:53] Brandon Ware: I’m just thinking about what you said and I wonder for in heterosexual relationships, if the man, if it’s a [00:08:00] male male female situation, if the male would want an outside person so they’re, I mean there’s just a lot to dissect here and I wonder how men feel in that situation versus having an acquaintance that they know that’s a female if you’re having an MFF.
[00:08:14] Jess O’Reilly: So you’re saying that the men who are saying they want friends and acquaintances are more likely wanting an MFF, like they’re thinking about two women and you’re thinking that it might be different if they were joining two men and a woman? Correct, yes. Yeah, I didn’t think about that. Yeah, that’s interesting because So much of what we believe about threesomes is written along these heterosexual scripts, and even the data that I’m able to pull is from research with heterosexual folks, or people who identify as heterosexual.
[00:08:41] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, I think it would vary. And I think even for queer people, it’s different. Like for me, the gender just doesn’t matter. Like, I wouldn’t be thinking, Oh, I want it in this way. Like, I can, I can enjoy when I think about it in my head, a scenario with all different types of arrangements.
[00:08:56] Brandon Ware: I think about like some of the partners, like some of the people that, that we know, I just wonder if the, the men in the couple would be comfortable if it was their friend coming in and having sex, that third person in the relationship versus them fantasizing about somebody else’s, you know, a female partner in a different.
[00:09:13] Jess O’Reilly: It’s interesting because I just talked to a guy so he his partner is a woman and they had a threesome and he arranged it for her and it was a friend of his and so he like you know worked her all up and tied her up and there was this whole kind of story to it where he got her riled up and then he left and then when he came home she was kind of waiting for him and he blindfolded her and they’d already talked about it and he kind of had his friend sneak in to surprise her so this isn’t something that He just surprised her with without consent, uh, like it’s something they had discussed, but he brought in a friend.
[00:09:43] Jess O’Reilly: So I think it’s just, you know, varies from person to person.
[00:09:45] Brandon Ware: I think that’s awesome. That must’ve been, I mean, I wonder how the person, how his partner responded when they found out that that was the person that they’d been fantasizing about.
[00:09:55] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, he didn’t say that they had specifically been fantasizing about this guy.
[00:09:59] Jess O’Reilly: It’s just [00:10:00] that it’s who he was able to arrange, I guess. Oh. Like, sometimes it’s a matter of, um, and I’m not saying that’s the case in this person’s scenario, but sometimes it’s a matter of availability and accessibility. Who’s schedule permits. Right. Exactly. And who’s comfortable with it. You know, the other thing that people threesome going to ruin the relationship?
[00:10:18] Jess O’Reilly: And so. There is some data on this. So there was a study by Morris, Chang, and Knox. Again, a small, convenience, young sample. It was 196 undergraduates, so that gives you some context as to their age, and probably, you know, the longevity of their relationship to date. And 15 percent of them had had a threesome.
[00:10:36] Jess O’Reilly: And about half of them, 48%, said that the threesome kind of had no effect on their relationships. 17 percent said they felt closer after the threesome. And 21 percent reported a negative outcome. And so, this is a tiny little sample. I mean, I have to say, I’ve spoken to hundreds and hundreds, probably more than a thousand, probably, you know, could be in the thousands, I’m not sure, of couples who have had threesomes.
[00:11:00] Jess O’Reilly: Just because I work in groups, I’m not, you know, a one on one person. So I hear, sometimes, you know, you hear a dozen stories a day. And what I would say is that I think the planning affects the outcome. So if you’ve kind of led up to this and really talked about it, I admit I’m speaking more to the couples than the singles, although I’ve spoken to many singles as well, but not nearly as many as I have couples.
[00:11:20] Jess O’Reilly: I would say, and I can’t give you data because this is just anecdote, that they’re mostly positive reports. Like people, have a good time. There’s a good chunk of neutral reports where they’re like, okay, that was fine. Whatever. Um, I mean, it was sex, so that’s good. I hear some significant reports of letdown.
[00:11:36] Jess O’Reilly: So not disaster, but just letdown. Like, oh, I thought it would be hotter, or this was awkward, or I thought it was going to be like this, but all I had was someone else’s foot in my mouth, and that’s not what I was going for. Oh, I was also thinking that you could never sneak a second. a third person in with me because I’d smell them.
[00:11:51] Jess O’Reilly: I smell everything. You’ve got a wonderful sense of smell. I don’t know if it’s wonderful. It’s debilitating. I can smell everything. Like even if we’re on a hike and we’re near someone, I’m like, Oh, I can’t walk near them. I [00:12:00] can smell them.
[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: Seriously, somebody walked by us the other day. We were out for a walk and you come, you were like, I can smell that person.
[00:12:05] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not even that they smell bad. I just have a really sensitive sense of smell and I’m sure they don’t smell bad at all. So I don’t want to like make other people self conscious. I just have a very sensitive. sense of smell. Anyhow, back to what I’ve seen. I haven’t seen a ton of significant adverse consequences for people in these threesomes.
[00:12:24] Jess O’Reilly: The times that I’ve heard about adverse consequences is when they don’t plan. It’s when they stumble into it. It’s when honestly they’re drinking and something happens. It’s when not all parties, all three parties, are equally on board. And I’m not saying that you have to have an equal interest, but if there’s any pressure, if there’s hesitation and then somebody pushes through, sometimes, you know, that can be upsetting.
[00:12:47] Jess O’Reilly: I do hear more adverse consequences from singles than I do from couples. And I wonder if it’s because The couples have spoken to each other more in advance and really played out scenarios and talked about how, what they’ll do if they feel uncomfortable or jealous or insecure or surprised by a reaction.
[00:13:03] Jess O’Reilly: With couples I hear that it’s, it kind of gets them more excited for each other, right? Because it’s something new they’ve done together, sort of that formula for passion where there’s trust and risk and they make it through. From singles I hear that the greatest benefit, and again this is just what I’m hearing, is the friendships.
[00:13:17] Jess O’Reilly: Like these cool people they’re connecting with to be friends. So there are all these different outcomes, and you know, beyond the data, I also really am hoping to have some time to share dialogues and prompts for, I think, reflections and conversations that I think are useful, and I might have to do that next week, just depending on timing, but before we get to that, if we get to that, we’re going to chat with our expert from FieldNow, Justin Lehmiller.
[00:13:40] Jess O’Reilly: Justin is a research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, host of the Sex and Psychology podcast, scientific advisor to our friends over at FIELD, and the author of the book Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire, and How It Can Help to Improve Your Sex Life. Justin, the last time I saw you, We were kind of [00:14:00] bouldering in the San Diego area, weren’t we?
[00:14:02] Jess O’Reilly: We were climbing mountains. The world was in a state of normalcy. Are you still climbing and exploring? How’s life in your world?
[00:14:10] Justin Lehmiller: I’m starting to get back out there a little bit day by day, but yeah, you know, some things haven’t changed when we were out. You know, bouldering. We were also talking about lube and sex toys and all that other good stuff and still doing that now.
[00:14:22] Justin Lehmiller: So, you know, some things haven’t changed. There’s been a lot of sex talk and work over the last year, but not so much interaction with the world. But like I said, getting back out there.
[00:14:32] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Brandon Ware: I want to jump in really quickly just because if you hadn’t given some context as to bouldering and climbing, I think between the lube and the sex toys, like we went bouldering.
[00:14:41] Brandon Ware: And what is that all about? Is that something I need to learn about or like what’s going on here?
[00:14:47] Jess O’Reilly: Nah, man, we were just climbing between rocks. Justin, don’t you run into that, that you, you use a very innocuous term and people are like, oh, what is that? I remember posting on Facebook once that I was going snow tubing and people are like, what’s that?
[00:14:58] Jess O’Reilly: Well, it’s just going in the snow in a, in a blow up tube, but they want something more perverted, right?
[00:15:02] Justin Lehmiller: I know everyone thinks I’m talking about sex, even when I’m not talking about sex. If anyone can relate to that, it’s probably you and every other sex educator and researcher out there.
[00:15:12] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely. All right.
[00:15:13] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re here to talk threesomes. You are the scientific advisor to field. Let’s talk threesome. So from your perspective, and I think I know what you’re going to say here, but what even counts as a threesome?
[00:15:24] Justin Lehmiller: Well, the easy part of defining a threesome would be that there would be three people involved.
[00:15:29] Justin Lehmiller: It’s one of the few sex acts where I think there’s a bit more consensus. You know, for example, if I ask people what counts as an orgy, they’re like all over the map in terms of the minimum number of participants, but at least with a threesome, that’s pretty clear now, when it comes to like actually what takes place during a threesome, that’s where we run into, you know, different people defining it in different ways.
[00:15:51] Justin Lehmiller: So for example, does a three way kiss. Count, you know, and when you ask people, how do you define sex? You see that they’re kind of all over the place. Some [00:16:00] people define kissing as sex. Some people don’t count sex as sex unless there’s some penetrative intercourse taking place. And so that’s where, you know, the definitions get a little bit messy.
[00:16:10] Justin Lehmiller: And so if you ask people, have you ever had a threesome? You’ll have a lot of people who will say yes, but some people might be talking about a three way kiss. Some people might be talking about, you know, there was just mutual groping and mutual masturbation. Other people, there might be penetrative intercourse or oral sex.
[00:16:26] Justin Lehmiller: So, you know, it’s kind of hard to know what people are. Meaning or referring to when they say they’ve had a threesome, unless you ask about the specific activities that took place.
[00:16:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And it’s not easy to get funding for in depth threesome research, right? It’s not at the top of funders lists in terms of, well, did you touch them with your left hand?
[00:16:43] Jess O’Reilly: Was there anal tickles? Was there nipple play? And I hear from folks sometimes, especially I’d say MF hetero couples. Where one partner is sort of complaining that they haven’t had a threesome, right? So they’ve played around, they’ve maybe had some like petting and kissing. And as you said, groping, and maybe they’ve had sex with their partner in the presence of another person or people.
[00:17:05] Jess O’Reilly: But oftentimes folks will be lamenting the fact that their partner won’t have a real threesome. And I think we need to get away from that notion that. You have to check a specific act off the box and instead just focus on, you know, what feels good, what feels exciting. But what role do you think porn has played in prescribing to us what a threesome must be?
[00:17:25] Justin Lehmiller: Well, I think we all get a lot of ideas about what sex is supposed to be from porn. And porn helps to guide a lot of our scripts about kind of how sex should go. And so I think when you’re talking about something like a threesome, which most people have never experienced in real life, you know, if you look at the best nationally representative data points we have on threesomes, you find that about one in five men and one in 10 women say that they’ve had.
[00:17:50] Justin Lehmiller: A threesome before, but you know, when it comes to how those experiences actually go, I think a lot of people go into it thinking it’s supposed to look like what it looks like in porn. And [00:18:00] you know, that’s actually one of the big misconceptions about threesomes is that, you know, everyone’s going to go in and it’s just gonna know exactly what to do with everybody.
[00:18:07] Justin Lehmiller: Everybody’s going to have a great time. There’s going to be this simultaneous orgasm by everyone at the end, you know, and it doesn’t really. Uh, so, you know, porn can give us this idea, but I think we have to step back and say, you know, that’s really the fantasy that’s, that’s what a scripted threesome looks like.
[00:18:26] Justin Lehmiller: And that’s not what most threesomes look like in reality.
[00:18:28] Jess O’Reilly: So you, you bring up fantasies and you’re the expert in fantasies. So in your book, tell me what you want. You explored the fantasies of, I believe it was Americans, correct?
[00:18:37] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, there were 4, 175 Americans I surveyed and threesomes were really the most, uh, Popular fantasy, you know, more than 90 percent of people across genders and across sexual orientation said they’d fantasized about a threesome before of some type.
[00:18:52] Justin Lehmiller: You know, again, there’s a lot of variability in how that’s going to take place. And one of the other things I find when I look at people’s threesome fantasies is that most people want to be the center of attention and that kind of creates this conflict intention when people actually go into a threesome situation, because if everybody wants to be the center of attention, you know, You can’t really get that, you know, you’re going to take turns and you have to communicate that if everybody’s going to get what they want out of that situation.
[00:19:19] Jess O’Reilly: Ah, that’s really interesting. So that desire to be the center of attention, babe, is that sort of your, would you say that’s your, your perspective? That’s why you’d want a threesome?
[00:19:27] Brandon Ware: Yeah. You know what? Thinking about it, I don’t. I’m not trying to make excuses. I don’t know that I’d necessarily always want to be the center of attention.
[00:19:35] Brandon Ware: I think it would be nice sometimes to have that, but I think there’s a lot of fantasy that could just incorporate in your partner or the third person and, you know, focusing on them and that being very arousing. But I also think that the idea of a threesome sometimes is much easier than. The threesome in reality, right?
[00:19:53] Brandon Ware: Like in my mind, everything can play out perfectly. And, you know, I don’t have to think about any of the after [00:20:00] intercourse or after sex elements, right? Like I don’t have to think about the emotional side. I don’t think about like, do I have to make somebody food after or who gets the cab or, you know, are you staying the night?
[00:20:10] Brandon Ware: Right. So anyway. Going back to your question. Yeah. Sometimes I focus on myself. I think about it. And sometimes I think I could also take pleasure in focusing on somebody else in the, in the fantasy.
[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: Now, Justin, you mentioned that people want to be the center of attention. Why else do people fantasize about threesomes?
[00:20:27] Jess O’Reilly: Did that come up in your research?
[00:20:28] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah. And you know, I should mention, well. Most people said they want to be the center of attention. There’s a lot of diversity and variability in how these threesome scenarios play out. And I think that speaks to the fact that different people are trying to meet different needs through a threesome.
[00:20:45] Justin Lehmiller: And so for a lot of people, there is that wanting to be overwhelmingly desired by more than one other person. And so it’s very validating and it can. Increase your feelings of sexual competence and self confidence. And so that’s part of the appeal for some people, but another part of the appeal is just that it’s a novelty and something, like I said, most people have never experienced and human beings are just.
[00:21:09] Justin Lehmiller: Inherently turned on by sexual novelty. And so the idea of having another partner there, another set of body parts to look at and to, uh, touch and all of these things, you know, that, that novelty is another big draw for a lot of people as well. And it can also be a way that some people can explore their sexuality, right?
[00:21:29] Justin Lehmiller: So if it’s a mixed gender threesome, you know, some people are interested in that because it’s a way to explore. Bisexual or pansexual attraction that they’ve never otherwise had a chance to experiment with in real life. And we know that there’s a lot of sexual fluidity in people’s sexual fantasies. A lot of people who identify as exclusively heterosexual who have same sex fantasy, you know, a threesome is a.
[00:21:52] Justin Lehmiller: Perfect avenue for, for starting to explore that.
[00:21:55] Jess O’Reilly: That’s so interesting because so much of the research that I came across in threesomes, the folks [00:22:00] identified as heterosexual, and that’s, I mean, just speaks to the fact that the way we identify or the way we label ourselves doesn’t always reflect, you know, our behavior.
[00:22:08] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Because at some point, if you say you’re straight and you’re having sex with someone who, I mean, I don’t obviously subscribe to the gender binary, but if you’re having sex with someone who is either the opposite gender or a different gender or whatever the case may be, your identity can still be hetero, of course.
[00:22:22] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not telling you you’re not hetero, but behaviorally people might see that differently. I got to ask you about the disparity in research. So we have this research that says that about twice as many men. Are saying they’ve had heterosexual men. Okay. About twice as many hetero men are saying they’ve had threesomes as hetero women.
[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: And then again, if you dig deeper into the data, they’re saying they’re having more M f f threesomes. So how does this, is there any way to reconcile this data? Like is it the same, I don’t know, million women in the world who are having these threesomes over and over again or are lies? Lies? Are women underreporting threesomes and men overreporting?
[00:23:01] Jess O’Reilly: Both. What do you think?
[00:23:02] Justin Lehmiller: It’s a great question. And, you know, it reminds me of this other finding in the literature where when you ask men and women, and, you know, we’re generally talking about heterosexuals here, because that’s where most of the research is based. When you ask how many sexual partners they’ve had in their lifetime, on average, men report having about twice as many partners as women.
[00:23:21] Justin Lehmiller: And it’s like, you know, the math. Just doesn’t totally add up there. And so some researchers have tried to look at, well, what explains this disparity? And so part of it is that there’s some lying, there’s some socially desirable responding that’s going on where women are underreporting and men are overreporting.
[00:23:38] Justin Lehmiller: And one of the best demonstrations of this is they’ve actually done a study where they’ve asked men and women about the number of sexual partners they’ve had in one of two conditions, you know, one is where they can. Just report it as they would on a survey. Another is they’re hooked up to a lie detector or what they’re convinced is a lie detector.
[00:23:55] Justin Lehmiller: And what they find is that the difference between men and women gets a lot smaller [00:24:00] when they’re in the lie detector condition. So, you know, that’s part of the story. That’s part of what’s going on here. But there’s another factor at play, which is that. When you’re talking about something like number of sexual partners, we find that men and women have different counting strategies and women actually go through and count, whereas men tend to ballpark it.
[00:24:18] Justin Lehmiller: And so, you know, that’s another part of this story here. And when you’re talking about threesomes specifically. You know, there might be a difference in what people are counting as a threesome. You know, I haven’t seen any research that specifically looked at that, but maybe men have a broader definition of what a threesome is, maybe they’re counting more things as threesomes.
[00:24:37] Justin Lehmiller: And so maybe that’s partially what’s, you know, kind of explaining it. So it gets back to that definitional question of what does sex mean? How are people thinking about this? And that just, you know, makes it a little bit hard to interpret what people are actually saying on surveys. If you don’t ask really specific questions.
[00:24:53] Brandon Ware: I have a question about the average number of partners. So can you just tell us what is the average for, and I’m assuming this is part of your study, hetero, like males and females, men and women.
[00:25:04] Justin Lehmiller: So it depends on the study that you consult and whether it’s a college age population or, you know, an older, more diverse population, you know, in a lot of the college age samples that I’ve seen, you know, you’re looking at.
[00:25:15] Justin Lehmiller: You know, women reporting like three and men reporting like six, you know, it’s something like that. If you look at nationally representative surveys, you find that the overall average is somewhere closer to 11 or 12 that people are reporting. And there’s usually, you know, a gender difference study after study, you’ll find different inconsistent findings, but on average, men are reporting about twice as many partners as women.
[00:25:36] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, I, this aligns with men reporting higher measures in so many realms, right? So if you look at performance in the workplace, men are more likely to rate themselves higher than women. Like we see this just kind of across the board. And so I guess we always have to change our lens or take data with a, with a grain of salt.
[00:25:55] Jess O’Reilly: Now let’s threesomes. When you, you work with FIELD, so this is an [00:26:00] app that allows couples to date online. There are people who are looking for a long term ethical non monogamy on there, but there are also people just simply looking for threesomes for that hookup. And I understand the app kind of leaves it open for people to define how they use it.
[00:26:13] Jess O’Reilly: Do you have any advice for first timers who are interested in exploring threesomes in terms of how to approach it? I think you wrote a whole guide on threesomes.
[00:26:22] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, so there’s a few things to think about here. And one is just kind of like, how are you going to find a threesome? And a lot of people kind of start threesomes just spontaneously, they’re out at the bar, people are having a few drinks, and it just kind of like happens.
[00:26:36] Justin Lehmiller: And those are the situations that people often end up. Regretting when they’re a threesome, when it’s unplanned, it’s spontaneous, they don’t know the other people. And so there’s not like that kind of established communication between them. And it’s harder for everyone to get what they want out of that situation.
[00:26:52] Justin Lehmiller: And so I think that’s where an app like field can be really handy because threesomes are actually the number one desire reported by users of the app. And so, you know, it’s a good way to start by finding like minded others. And then you can have this communication beforehand about. What is it that you want to get out of that experience?
[00:27:10] Justin Lehmiller: What are you looking for? What are the other people looking for? And you can kind of talk through some of that stuff. And when you have that greater communication and intimacy with everybody going into the threesome, I think that tends to promote a much more positive experience. Because, you know, it’s very easy when you end up in this sort of group situation for things to move beyond your comfort zone very quickly.
[00:27:33] Justin Lehmiller: And it can be hard to communicate. In that moment in that situation and to express, Hey, this is something I’m uncomfortable with. You know, people have a hard enough time doing that when it’s with one other person, but when you’ve got two people, you know, the, the normative pressure is higher. And especially if you’re say a single person joining a couple, you know, you might not want to interrupt that dynamic between the partners.
[00:27:56] Justin Lehmiller: And so I think having that greater communication beforehand can make [00:28:00] you feel more empowered in the moment to say what it is that you want and to ensure that just everybody is on the same page. Going into the situation.
[00:28:07] Jess O’Reilly: And so you’re talking about planning, how is planning different for a couple versus a single?
[00:28:12] Justin Lehmiller: So that’s a great question. And, you know, there’s all different kinds of threesomes. It could just be three single people going in three people who are friends, or it could be a couple with, you know, a single joining them, right. And the dynamic is going to be different in all of these situations. But let’s say you’re a couple and you’re going to bring a third in.
[00:28:31] Justin Lehmiller: I think it’s important to remember that that other person is entitled to the same amount of pleasure as you are. And so it’s important to put them on a level playing field when you’re thinking about this situation to ensure that everybody’s getting what they want so that it doesn’t feel exploitative.
[00:28:48] Justin Lehmiller: And it’s also really important for a single who’s joining a couple to Make sure that you’re going into it for the right reasons. You know, you’re not just into one person and you’re using this as an excuse or opportunity to hook up with that individual. And you’re kind of going in thinking you’re going to ignore the other person because that’s not going to create a great situation or dynamic for everyone.
[00:29:09] Justin Lehmiller: Because when threesomes turn into twosomes, that’s where we start to see the jealousy and the conflict, you know, the negative outcomes happening. And, you know, you, as the single coming into that couple, well, you might. Have a great time in that situation and leave, but there’s going to be some aftermath that the couple’s going to have to deal with.
[00:29:27] Justin Lehmiller: And, you know, it’s not really cool to sort of believe them in that situation. If you know, somebody is going in and trying to use another person in that threesome,
[00:29:36] Brandon Ware: I feel like I hear that. A lot like, like, I mean, in some of the conversations, it’s, it’s like the couple, there’s one person in that couple who wants it more than the other.
[00:29:45] Brandon Ware: And I could just see the pressure ultimately resulting in a generally negative outcome for all people involved, right? The person, the other partner in the couple feels uncomfortable, just so many layers. So that’s a really, really interesting way to, to, I [00:30:00] think, approach the situation.
[00:30:02] Justin Lehmiller: Yeah, there shouldn’t be that there shouldn’t be any element of coercion when it comes to a threesome.
[00:30:07] Justin Lehmiller: Nobody should feel like they’re going into it because they have to do it. They have to please somebody else. Ideally, you know, everybody is on the same page. They want this. And again, I think that’s where, you know, talking through all of this in the beginning is so important and so helpful. And, you know, if you’re in a situation where you’re part of a couple and your partner really wants a threesome, but you don’t.
[00:30:28] Justin Lehmiller: You shouldn’t feel like you have to have a threesome just to satisfy your partner or to stop that conflict from occurring, you know, it might mean that maybe you’re not a good sexual match and you know, maybe this isn’t the right relationship for you because if you start compromising yourself sexually, just to please your partner and your partner, it’s all about giving your partner what they want.
[00:30:46] Justin Lehmiller: It’s not about you that. That’s not a healthy situation to be in.
[00:30:50] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And there’s absolutely, um, you never want to do anything under pressure, but there are all these things you can do between fantasizing about a threesome and having a threesome, right? Like there are lots of different kind of steps along the way that may fulfill that desire for a threesome without actually having a threesome, right?
[00:31:07] Jess O’Reilly: So you talked about, for example, wanting to be the center of attention. So I always kind of go back to the emotion underlying a desire. Well, if they want to be the center of attention, what are. other ways to play with that desire, to manifest that desire, other than bringing a third person in, if you’re not comfortable doing that, I want to rewind for a moment to something you said about three friends getting together, because in almost all of the threesomes that I see and hear about, and it’s more than I asked to hear about, you know, hundreds and hundreds of threesomes.
[00:31:36] Jess O’Reilly: It is very rarely in my, from just from my experience, just three people deciding to do it. Oftentimes I’m seeing couples or singles. Do you see that often with just three people hooking up together?
[00:31:50] Justin Lehmiller: I mean, I know it happens. It’s one of those things where we don’t have a lot of great. Data points on all of this, because, you know, as you said, there’s not really funding to do this kind of work.
[00:31:59] Justin Lehmiller: And [00:32:00] so threesomes rarely get asked about on like a nationally representative sex survey. And in fact, the first national data point that I saw on this only came out in the last couple of years. So prior to that, we really only knew things. from college students and, you know, these other limited types of samples.
[00:32:17] Justin Lehmiller: So some of my colleagues and I have started to conduct more research on threesomes to better understand this. And, you know, what we see is that there is a lot of diversity and variability, but I would say more often than not, it’s usually the case of a, you know, there’s a couple and then a third person.
[00:32:31] Justin Lehmiller: Coming in because, you know, a lot of people, and I would say that that’s likely to be the case. A lot of people find it challenging enough to just find one other partner, let alone two at the same time. You know, there’s a lot of coordinating and logistics that have to happen for three non partnered individuals to get together and have a threesome.
[00:32:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that definitely makes sense to me. What do you want people to understand about threesomes before going in?
[00:32:54] Justin Lehmiller: So I think it’s important to recognize that the reality of the threesome might not live up to your fantasy, right? You know, I think that’s really kind of the biggest misconception. You know, that there also isn’t just one script for how to have a threesome.
[00:33:07] Justin Lehmiller: There’s all kinds of ways that you can do this. And I think it’s also really important to recognize that it might take a little bit of practice. In order for you to get what you want out of a threesome. And I think this is true of any fantasy that practice makes perfect. The first time you try it, there’s some uncertainty, some hesitation, and you kind of have to figure it out and you have to communicate with your partners.
[00:33:29] Justin Lehmiller: And so it might be that the second or third or fourth time that you try having a threesome, you know, maybe that’s when you really. Start to figure out your groove. So if you had a bad experience with a threesome the first time, I wouldn’t say to automatically discount that and say that you would never like threesomes.
[00:33:45] Justin Lehmiller: You know, I’m a fan of saying try anything twice, right? Because the first time might just not have been the optimal experience for that. And so, you know, something you can do if you’re new to threesomes is to consider experimenting with different formats. So one of the things I [00:34:00] did for field was to write this guide on how to have a virtual threesome, right?
[00:34:04] Justin Lehmiller: And that was something that you could do. During the pandemic, you know, to safely interact with multiple people and to fill, fulfill and satisfy your sexual desires, but it can also be a good practice run for sort of figuring out how do multi partner dynamics work. And so, you know, that’s something that you could try kind of like as a first step where, you know, the stakes are a little bit lower than actually having three people in bed at the same time.
[00:34:29] Jess O’Reilly: Right. I love that. And you’re minimizing some of your risks as well. I know, like, one of the big fears for a lot of people who are potentially reproducing in the type of sex they have is what do you do if there’s an unplanned pregnancy, right? Is this something we’re talking about? I know that, you know, the likelihood of pregnancy isn’t super high, but it’s still something that concerns people.
[00:34:46] Jess O’Reilly: And of course that is eliminated with virtual threesomes, STI risk. And transmission is eliminated. I think it also gives you a peek into how you might feel, right. So to be able to be kind of alone in your, not alone, but with a partner perhaps, or alone in your own space and think, okay, how am I feeling in my body at this moment?
[00:35:05] Jess O’Reilly: And as much as it can be a turn on and overwhelming with the virtual interaction, something that you, that you said that really stands out to me is that I wonder if we have to prepare ourselves to be disappointed. Not because, not because threesomes can’t be hot, but because. So many people build this up, as you said, from your data as the ultimate fantasy.
[00:35:24] Jess O’Reilly: And when you build anything up, when you hype anything up that big, you know, you’re creating an expectation that may not be attainable in reality. And I really appreciate the fact that you’re underscoring that just cause you have one bad experience doesn’t mean you never do it again. Like if we did that with sex, none of us would ever have sex again, right?
[00:35:40] Jess O’Reilly: One bad experience and I’m out. But we do that with more subversive experiences, or we, we hear one story about one person or one couple who had a bad experience. And we generalize that and say, Oh no, no, no, this happened this one time to this one couple. Therefore it’s toxic or therefore it will lead to a relationship dissolution.
[00:35:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I appreciate that message to keep [00:36:00] an open mind. I love your research. Love following along with the work that you’re doing. Are you working on a new book yet?
[00:36:06] Justin Lehmiller: Um, I am working on revisions for the third edition of my textbook. But at the moment it’s called the psychology of human sexuality. And so that’s my next book project.
[00:36:15] Justin Lehmiller: And then once that is out of the way, then I can start looking at other books.
[00:36:19] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Awesome. Makes sense. Well, I’ll be following along. I hope to see you soon. Are we going to get to go back to San Diego that when we were in San Diego, I should mention to folks, I won’t say the company, but we were working on product development and it was a two day workshop to come up with new projects.
[00:36:32] Jess O’Reilly: And I thought that was so cool. Such a cool experience.
[00:36:34] Justin Lehmiller: Oh yeah. It was amazing. I can’t wait to do stuff like that again.
[00:36:37] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my goodness. Yes. Let’s go. Get on a plane and, and then go hiking in between. We went to the coolest, I wish I could look up the place that we went hiking, but we went to this Canyon, which was not a difficult hike, but I just remember the pictures were so fabulous.
[00:36:49] Justin Lehmiller: Yes. And if you do a deep dive on our Instagram feeds, you can find photos of our little. Hiking experience. And it was, it was a ton of fun and absolutely beautiful. And then I think we got margaritas afterwards and talked about sex. So, you know, that was also fun.
[00:37:03] Jess O’Reilly: Checks all the box margaritas, sex talk and climbing mountains.
[00:37:07] Jess O’Reilly: Well, thank you so much for being with us. We so appreciate it. And we’ll make sure to leave all your information in the show notes, but folks can follow along Justin Instagram. that’s kind of hard to spell, but I’ll put it out there for you. And don’t forget to check out the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You to Improve Your Sex Life.
[00:37:25] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks so much, Justin.
[00:37:26] Justin Lehmiller: Thanks for having me, Jess. It’s always a pleasure.
[00:37:28] Jess O’Reilly: This is such Threesomes, it comes up in every single group I work with. It doesn’t matter where I am. Somebody is going to either ask out in the open or sneak off and ask me about threesomes. Yeah.
[00:37:38] Brandon Ware: Well, I mean, in addition to the fact that it’s a lot of people’s fantasies is what’s constantly reinforced in porn.
[00:37:43] Brandon Ware: I mean, we see you see so much where it’s there’s three or four people involved in a scene. So I think that maybe for that reason, it becomes a prominent fantasy as well.
[00:37:52] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to keep talking about this. So what we’re gonna do is just because of time, do a part two next week. And [00:38:00] next week what I want to talk about is how to prepare for a threesome.
[00:38:04] Jess O’Reilly: And I have dozens and dozens of questions and prompts and considerations. I want to begin with a self questionnaire, like the questions you should ask yourself before you prep for a threesome. I want to also leave you with some prompts to consider. different feelings like jealousy, insecurity, and distress, so we’ll come to that next week.
[00:38:23] Jess O’Reilly: I also have a questionnaire I want to share with couples, so something that you can talk through with a partner. And I really want to talk about couples privilege and unicorn complaints and what happens when you treat the third Like, they’re there to serve you. And really, like, how do we address that privilege?
[00:38:39] Jess O’Reilly: Because you can’t get rid of privilege. I know people hate that word, but you have privilege, you have privilege. So what do you do with it? And how do you manage it? I also have a three way discussion for things you can talk about when you find your threesome, right? When you eventually, hopefully, hop on field and find a second or third party to play with.
[00:38:57] Jess O’Reilly: And I want to talk about how to introduce a threesome, right? How to talk about it, kind of my three step formula applied to threesomes and how to create those what I call third party bridges. And I also want to talk about threesome light. So Justin had mentioned the virtual threesome and even that would feel like too much for some people.
[00:39:16] Jess O’Reilly: So I want to talk about what that threesome light looks like. So that is the plan for next week. We’re going to have to do some shuffling around to make that work. A whole lot to discuss next week. Yeah. And I just think all of these Questions are really important, like, to consider because the, you know, that’s my anecdotal experience is that the couples and the singles who prepare for it have more positive outcomes.
[00:39:37] Jess O’Reilly: And Justin said the exact same thing from his data. So make sure you come back next week. Do go check out F. E. E. L. D. F E E L D in the App Store. Download it, check it out, and just kind of play around. It doesn’t matter how curious you are, how serious you are. They’ve kind of got something for you. Everyone there.
[00:39:55] Jess O’Reilly: So thanks, babe, for chatting threesomes. We’ve talked about our experiences before, right? On [00:40:00] the podcast?
[00:40:00] Brandon Ware: We definitely have and you today we really hit the nail on the head. Some have been great. Some have been a letdown and Some would have been better kept in my mind.
[00:40:10] Jess O’Reilly: Okay Well, that’s like you just added volumes to it.
[00:40:12] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t even remember what we’ve shared in the past, but that’s okay. All right, babe. Thanks for joining me. Thanks so much, of course, to Justin Lee Miller. Folks, make sure you’re following along and thank you for joining us. We’ll be back next week with part two of how to have threesome.
[00:40:25] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Pleasure, Spanking & Masculinity with King Noire
22 sep 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
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TL;DR – Pleasure, Spanking & Masculinity with King Noire
King Noire, an award-winning porn performer, activist, and Master Fetish Trainer, joins Jess & Brandon from Sex Down South to unpack pleasure, pansexuality, masculinity, and the politics of porn.
Spanking with intention: Start slow, communicate often, and never assume your partner’s limits. Explore sting + sensuality with toys like the We-Vibe Touch X or We-Vibe Sync 2.
Ethical porn matters: Through Royal Fetish Films, King and Jasmine produce performer-centered content with fair pay, real chemistry, and co-created scenes—pleasure without exploitation.
Redefining masculinity: King challenges toxic masculinity and invites men to explore full-body pleasure, from rimming to surrender, without shame.
Pleasure is political: Ditch scripts, centre consent, and reclaim your body’s truth. Want more? Listen to the full podcast and dive into posts on anal play, decolonizing desire, and kinky psychology with Luna Matatas & Marla Renée Stewart.
Pleasure, Spanking & Masculinity: A Conversation with King Noire
King Noire is an accomplished and award-winning writer, porn performer, artist, Master Fetish Trainer, MC, and global activist using the proceeds of his album Music Is My Weapon™ to build a school, freshwater well, and medical clinic in West Africa. He raises consciousness around kink safety for people of color, provides lectures on the decolonization of sexuality, and offers sex education to audiences ranging from college students to medical providers.
Check out King Noire’s website here, and follow him on his social media accounts – Instagram and Twitter.
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Redefining Masculinity, Spanking with Intention & Ethical Porn
The inimitable King Noire shares his perspective of pleasure, pansexuality, performance and much more in this candid conversation with Jess & Brandon. King Noire — an award-winning performer, master fetish trainer, music artist, and educator joined us for an unfiltered conversation live from Sex Down South in Atlanta. We explored everything from pansexual performance and impact play to somnophilia, ethical porn, and raising sons with care and intention.
What is a Master Fetish Trainer?
King and his partner Jet Setting Jasmine coined the term to reflect their work supporting folks as they discover and embody their fetishes safely. Whether you’re learning to flog, exploring choking and breath play, or simply figuring out what turns you on, their work is grounded in safety, education, and consent.
And if you’re new to spanking? King offers this tip: Start slow and sensual. Build intensity over time, alternate sensations, and never assume your partner wants to be hit hard just because they say they’re into impact. Communication is king. And so is practice.
If you’re ready to explore sensation and power play, a great first step could be incorporating a dual-purpose vibe like the We-Vibe Sync 2, or try the We-Vibe Touch X to blend sting and sensuality in foreplay.
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Ethical Porn: Performer-Centered Pleasure
Through their production company, Royal Fetish Films, King and Jasmine are creating ethical, inclusive, and pleasure-forward porn. Their approach centers performer autonomy, fair pay, and honest representation. Performers don’t just show up to do what’s scripted — they co-create scenes based on what actually turns them on.
From iPhone portrait mode to cinematic drone footage, their production spans aesthetics and genres — because pleasure doesn’t come in one shape or size.
If you’re exploring fantasies with your partner and want to talk about what’s real vs. performative, check out:
Emotional seduction and your Core Erotic FeelingPleasure for All Genders & Decolonizing Desire
King reminds us that toxic masculinity doesn’t only hurt women and queer folks — it robs men of pleasure too.
From the joys of being rimmed to the freedom of letting go during sex, King challenges us all — regardless of gender — to stop performing, and start feeling.
King Noire
And yes, you can catch him and Jasmine at Kink in Costa Rica, where they teach, explore, and play in paradise.
Internal Links to Explore More
Want to go deeper into kink and sensation play? Start with these posts:
9 Anal Pleasure Techniques
The Psychology of kink in Kinky Tapas with the brilliant Luna Matatas and Marla Renée Stewart
Final Thoughts
This conversation reminded us that pleasure is political — and deeply personal. If you’ve ever felt boxed in by gender scripts, cultural norms, or porn that doesn’t reflect your reality, take a page from King Noire’s playbook: seek pleasure on your terms, center consent, and unlearn what doesn’t serve you.
You can find the SexWithDrJess podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!

Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Pleasure, Spanking & Masculinity with King Noire
Episode 335
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are here in Atlanta at sex down south with the King Noir. I have to read your bio before you come on. It’s the boys. King Noir is an accomplished award winning writer, porn performer. Artist, master fetish trainer, MC, we’re going to be playing his music, global activist who uses the proceeds of his album, Music is My Weapon, to build a school, a freshwater well, a medical clinic in West Africa.
[00:00:40] Jess O’Reilly: He raises consciousness around kink safety for people of color. He provides lectures on the decolonization of sexuality and offers sex education to audiences ranging from college students to medical providers to those of us in the field. You have a big following. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:56] King Noire: Thank you.
[00:00:56] King Noire: Thank you for having me. It’s good to be back. All right.
[00:00:58] Jess O’Reilly: So you just, you won a big award, a big award in the industry. So Urban X Awards, Pansexual Performer of the Year.
[00:01:06] King Noire: Yep.
[00:01:06] Jess O’Reilly: What’s that mean, Pansexual Performer?
[00:01:08] King Noire: Oh, shit. It’s interesting because I think this might have been either one of the, either the first or one of the first years that they’ve actually had that as an award.
[00:01:16] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:01:17] King Noire: So I’m honored to win it either way. I think. Pansexual as I guess as a sexuality is kind of like you fuck who you’re attracted to and you don’t let Gender or orientation or anything like that get in the way of you fucking who you want to fuck. I like that That’s that’s how I define it and then I think for the award I think the reason that I was even nominated for that award is because I do a lot of work with trans performers as well as cisgender performers, so I was extremely honored to get it cuz We putting in work.
[00:01:49] King Noire: So I want, I want to be honored for that work and it feels good to be honored by, you know, Urban X’s is big in the industry. So it’s like people are seeing it. People are acknowledging it. And a [00:02:00] lot of times they think that, you know, black men can’t do it. So that’s like one of those things. That’s just another arena that we’re looking to.
[00:02:07] King Noire: Expand people’s sexual pleasure and understanding.
[00:02:11] Jess O’Reilly: And pleasure is pleasure, isn’t it?
[00:02:12] King Noire: Facts.
[00:02:13] Jess O’Reilly: Like, we are so hung up on, whether it’s gender, labels, or orientation, or…
[00:02:18] King Noire: Alone.
[00:02:18] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:02:19] King Noire: People sometimes get hung up on like, Nah, I shouldn’t be… Yeah, you should. You should be making yourself feel good. Who better to please you than you?
[00:02:27] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I’d rather someone else do it because I’m kind of lazy. So if I could have someone lend me a hand or two, I’m about that. Now you wear so many hats. I want to talk about your music. I know you’re an MC. We’re going to be playing your music. You’re a master fetish trainer. I’ve always seen that in your bio.
[00:02:40] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I’m a big follower on Instagram. You have a lot of them. What does that mean? What’s a master fetish trainer?
[00:02:45] King Noire: Well, Jasmine and I came up with the master fetish trainer as a way to describe what it is that we do. Cause people are always like, what is it that you do? Y’all do so many things. We help people identify.
[00:02:57] King Noire: And experience their fetishes in a healthy and safe way.
[00:03:01] Jess O’Reilly: And a little context on Jasmine. Jasmine has been on the podcast several times.
[00:03:04] King Noire: Yes, my partner.
[00:03:05] Jess O’Reilly: We are missing her.
[00:03:05] King Noire: The one and only Jetsetting Jasmine. She’s not here at Sex Down South this year.
[00:03:09] Jess O’Reilly: She was.
[00:03:10] King Noire: She was supposed to be. She was supposed to be where we’re supposed to be hosting.
[00:03:13] King Noire: So now I’m going to have to have her in via satellite. But, you know, we’re going to, uh, we’re going to make it work. We’re going to make it work, but she is taking care of our two little ones right now. So they’re both under the weather.
[00:03:25] Jess O’Reilly: There’s something going around as everyone can hear in my voice. My voice is,
[00:03:27] Brandon Ware: I thought that was just your sexy voice for the podcast, but no,
[00:03:31] Jess O’Reilly: I am on the last 1 percent of my voice.
[00:03:33] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know how I’m going to get through the rest of the night. So master fetish trainer, what do you do? What can people hire you for? What can they experience and expect?
[00:03:41] King Noire: So people can either hire us for education. Or they can hire us for experiences. So some people they’re like, I want to learn how to flog somebody or engage in impact play, breath play, or whatever their particular fetishes, but sometimes just trying to go out there and learn, you don’t know who you’re learning from.
[00:03:59] King Noire: You [00:04:00] don’t know if anybody has any experience, credentials or anything like that. So we offer education. Well, other times people want that actual experience. They’re like, I want to be choked. I want to be flogged or I want to flog my partner and I want somebody there who can show me how to do it and then make sure I’m doing it properly.
[00:04:14] King Noire: So that’s what we do.
[00:04:16] Jess O’Reilly: What do people get wrong about impact play?
[00:04:18] King Noire: They don’t take their time. People usually go for like the. Their heart is spanked, you know what I’m saying? And it’s like, no, that’s not how the body works. So, like, understanding just physio uh, like, physiologically how the body works, what chemicals are gonna be moving around in your body and when and why, just that alone will help.
[00:04:34] King Noire: Anybody understand? Like, okay, I really shouldn’t just walk into the room, you know, pull back and swing with all my might, you know, because it’s also like there are wrong places to spank somebody or flog somebody. There’s a definite wrong way to choke somebody. And we say you always want after you choke your partner for them to return to you the same way they were when you started choking them because you could do some serious damage.
[00:04:55] King Noire: So it’s important to be able to do things safely, properly. And that also makes it more pleasurable.
[00:05:00] Jess O’Reilly: Of course, of course. So spanking. If someone says, okay, My partner wants me to spank them. Okay, they can go learn from you, but how can they start at home? Like, what would be your top tips for somebody who’s spanking for the first time?
[00:05:12] King Noire: First and foremost is find out what kind of feel your partner likes. Because just on our hand, we can create something that’s more stingy, we can create something that’s more of a thud, you know. Anybody who’s ever slap box knows that if you get caught with some fingers, it’s a lot different than getting caught with somebody’s palm, right?
[00:05:27] King Noire: What’s slap box? Slap boxing is instead of closing your fist to spar somebody, you just slap boxing with somebody. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a thing. It’s a thing.
[00:05:36] Jess O’Reilly: Everybody’s pausing to a
[00:05:39] Brandon Ware: little stunned. You know, I
[00:05:41] Jess O’Reilly: just want to watch people slap box
[00:05:43] King Noire: actually is now this league where they do like professional slapping and they’d be knocking each other the fuck out with that shit.
[00:05:50] King Noire: It’s crazy.
[00:05:51] Brandon Ware: I’ve I’ve seen some of the people they get knocked right out. Like they’ll just be sitting there and then. All of a sudden, they’re on the floor.
[00:05:58] King Noire: And they show it in slow mo and [00:06:00] everything, so you can see the ripples through their face and the snot and everything. It’s crazy.
[00:06:03] Jess O’Reilly: I feel like, Brandon, you’d be good at slap boxing with those big baseball mitt hands.
[00:06:07] Brandon Ware: Not only, I have a glass jaw. I’d be out. Somebody,
[00:06:10] King Noire: like, you know, just breathes on me and I’d be out. You gotta, you definitely have to go. Be like, I gotta go first all the time.
[00:06:17] Brandon Ware: Yeah, but you know, there’s that whole, you get all excited,
[00:06:19] Brandon Ware: the anticipation, then you screw up. And then you know somebody’s gonna, like, just smoke you in the face.
[00:06:24] Jess O’Reilly: So if we go back to spanking the ass.
[00:06:26] King Noire: Yes.
[00:06:26] Jess O’Reilly: So what type of, you wanna know what type of feel they want?
[00:06:30] King Noire: Yeah. So some, some people they like, you know, like with the, the ends of your fingers, that’s gonna be more of a sting.
[00:06:35] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:06:36] King Noire: If you get closer to the palm, the closer you get, that’s gonna be more of a thud.
[00:06:39] King Noire: Now even, even with where you position on the ass of where you hit somebody, like if you wanna warm somebody up, you’re definitely not gonna run in and just. Lay them out, like we said, so you want to kind of work in an upwards motion to kind of send all those good vibrations through the body, through the ass, because I mean, if you think about it, like when you’re having sex, you know how when you feel your body’s hitting on each other like this.
[00:07:03] King Noire: Especially in doggy style is pleasurable for because those are those waves of pleasure that’s going through your body. So it’s kind of like the same thing. So you don’t want to just while out, but as you build up, you can start building the intensity that you’re spanking somebody with.
[00:07:16] Jess O’Reilly: And do you sometimes want to alternate between something a little bit more sensual and comforting?
[00:07:21] Jess O’Reilly: And then something more stinging, like if you’re new to it, if you’re new to it, cause I, here’s what I think. I think people say, Oh, I want to be spanked and then people just give it their all.
[00:07:30] King Noire: Yeah. And that’s a mistake. Right. So there, there’s many techniques that you can use to either warm somebody up, relax their body.
[00:07:38] King Noire: Or, you know, if you’re trying to be sexy at the same time, you know, add more sensual touch with it as well. Sometimes people just want spanks as a punishment, or as a reward, you know what I’m saying? So it might, you really have to talk about it first. It’s not like one of those things that you just show up in the bedroom like, I’m spanking you tonight.
[00:07:55] Brandon Ware: This is where I feel like the master fetish trainer comes in. Because, you know, I think [00:08:00] about me doing it the first time. And then I’m like, yeah, I want to be all sexy. And it’s like, no. That did not work. Whereas I’m assuming you’re going to be coming in and like training people, the, the whole, the art, the seduction, the, the, the technique that’s going to give them what they want.
[00:08:16] King Noire: Absolutely. And that’s, that’s, that’s why I say there’s so many things that you can enjoy. And it’s like, as a couple, you know, I don’t have to touch either one of you, if you don’t want me to, I can show you on either. I show up with a bottom of my own, or I can just show you. Just in the air on a pillow, you know, I think it’s, it really depends on what the couple wants and that’s why I say that we’re masters of this kind of training because nobody has, even if you have the same category of fetish, the way you want to experience it, the way you want to live it.
[00:08:48] King Noire: And what brings you pleasure from it is different from person to person. Everybody’s completely unique with it.
[00:08:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And you just came off tour. You are touring, you’re on stage, you were doing a show, but you, while you’re doing these shows, so people need to follow you, follow you on Instagram. You’re doing private sessions.
[00:09:04] King Noire: Yes. So I go from. Sessioning on stage and showing people live what I do. Shout out to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and uh, LaFollies Burlesque. I had an amazing time out there. They were awesome. I got to work with Burlesque dancers, and I’m like flogging them, spanking them on stage. And then, you know, people might see me in the audience like, I want that, but not on stage.
[00:09:25] King Noire: So they can book me for private sessions as well.
[00:09:27] Jess O’Reilly: Speaking of, so tomorrow night we have the Big Bang. Yes. Add sex, add sex. Bang, bang. And you’re in, you, you and Jasmine, but I guess you’re on your own now. I know. You’re running it. Did you find, like, did you find someone to replace her? I mean, there’s many people.
[00:09:39] King Noire: Oh, no one can ever replace Jetsetting Jasmine. But I, I am going to have some special guests. You know, there are a lot of people that we’ve actually worked with for Royal Fetish Films. Out here in Atlanta or people that we work with through our black excellence, uh, Management company that’ll be on stage.
[00:09:55] King Noire: So we’re gonna do some things. We’re gonna do some things
[00:09:57] Jess O’Reilly: the show the show is amazing And [00:10:00] so I know that i’m always touting And promoting sex down south, but even if you don’t come to the whole conference You can buy tickets to the big bang
[00:10:07] King Noire: you can I mean sex down south is is just my one of my favorite times We weren’t here uh last year, but I look forward to it every year.
[00:10:17] King Noire: It’s, it’s my, my, like the conference that I’m like most looking forward to every year. So, I’m trying to make sure that I get to a whole bunch of events today.
[00:10:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, there is a lot going on here. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you do master fetish training. You’re also a producer, so you own a production company. Yes.
[00:10:32] Jess O’Reilly: Royal Fetish Films. Yes. And you’re producing ethical porn.
[00:10:35] King Noire: Yes.
[00:10:36] Jess O’Reilly: What does that mean?
[00:10:37] King Noire: Well, I know now people throw the word around a lot. So, um, for us, it means that. It is performer focused in the sense of we don’t have people come on with our company to shoot things that they are not interested in, whether it be, I want to try this for the first time, or this is my shit and I love doing so.
[00:10:57] King Noire: It’s not like this is the acts that we shoot for our company. If you don’t do them, then we’re not going to hire you. Right? So everybody is there because they want to be there. Everybody is there because this is It’s a form of expression that they’re interested in. Also, ethical is how we sell it, how we either pay people or give people access to that content to be able to sell it themselves.
[00:11:16] King Noire: So it’s not ever going to be a situation where somebody’s there and it’s just out there and they have absolutely nothing to do with it or aren’t able to monetize it in their own way or haven’t been paid properly for it. We want all body types, all genders, all orientations, all. Outlooks of sexuality shown on camera in a way that is reflective of how people enjoy their sexuality So if you’re super hardcore kink, then you’re gonna find some super hardcore kink If you are I want some super hardcore sensuality and you know Things like of that nature, we have the full range and you also have the full range of we shoot everything from I tell people we shoot from phones to drones.
[00:11:58] King Noire: So we have some people [00:12:00] like to get their porn in a nice portrait kind of look that’s coming straight from phone to phone. And you could tell that that performer set up a tripod themselves. Other people want that shit to look like a Christopher Nolan movie. And we have the shit that ranges from all of that because we, we.
[00:12:16] King Noire: I love, I love what we do. I love being able to express pleasure and passion and sensuality and kinkiness and fetishes in all kinds of different ways because sometimes they shoot certain things the same all the time. And that’s not how everybody, that’s not how everybody engages. You know, sometimes you want some shit that’s like some nice, beautiful light coming from outside, some natural light on the bed.
[00:12:40] King Noire: Other times you want that shit to look like everything is manufactured and everything is plastic and you’re just like, this is a complete fantasy, you know? So being able to have the real to the fantastical just makes it for more pleasure and things that you can then watch and then add into your own life.
[00:12:56] Jess O’Reilly: When you talk about ethical porn and actually focusing on what the performers are into, to me it follows that it’s just going to be hotter. Facts. Right? Like I would rather watch somebody doing something they love. So you’re not writing scripts like, we’re going to do double penetration anal today. It’s like, what are you into?
[00:13:12] Jess O’Reilly: What are you feeling? There must be a lot of checking in and kind of massaging as you go.
[00:13:17] King Noire: So like, let’s say y’all, let’s say I was going to be behind the camera for y’all scene. And you say, I don’t know. Tell me something you like.
[00:13:24] Brandon Ware: I like…
[00:13:25] Jess O’Reilly: I like that he put
[00:13:26] Brandon Ware: you put me on the spot. I, I, I, I, so I like to be…
[00:13:30] Brandon Ware: So let’s, I wanna, I wanna be on the bottom. I want her riding me.
[00:13:32] King Noire: Okay, so… I know, work, work.
[00:13:35] Jess O’Reilly: Did my aspiration come out?
[00:13:39] Brandon Ware: Tell me how you really feel.
[00:13:41] Jess O’Reilly: I’ll do anything for you, you know that?
[00:13:43] King Noire: Well, see, there you go. So let’s, let’s take both of those two things you mentioned. You want… Uh, just to ride and you don’t want to do that much work.
[00:13:51] King Noire: Okay.
[00:13:51] Jess O’Reilly: I actually just wanna watch, can we get someone else
[00:13:53] King Noire: so we could get somebody?
[00:13:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:13:54] King Noire: Oh, so we get somebody else to ride you.
[00:13:55] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. .
[00:13:56] King Noire: So that’s,
[00:13:57] Jess O’Reilly: I may, I may eat an ice cream on the corner. , she,
[00:13:59] Brandon Ware: where’s [00:14:00] Jess? She’s just having some takeout in the side, over in the corner.
[00:14:03] King Noire: Well, some people do have that fetish of being able to watch and, and, and also, Sit back and relax and enjoy a good meal at the same time.
[00:14:10] King Noire: So let’s just say that was the scene in this room that we have right here. So we can have Dr. Jess in a beautiful, you know, thrown, being able to direct who is going to ride you because you want that work. You want somebody to put in that work and you want to be on the bottom. So automatically from there, like just in this space, I know people aren’t looking in right now, but I love the natural light.
[00:14:30] King Noire: And so being able to sit from this angle to be able to watch you, watch them. You direct them almost. From your space as you’re eating. What are you eating? Noodles. . . I thought I thought you was gonna say rice. Just like rp. White rice.
[00:14:45] Jess O’Reilly: Slipping some noodles. Fried noodles and plain white rice. Like, you know, I’m so Chinese.
[00:14:49] King Noire: You know, people have, people have, you know, fantasies that do involve food. You know, that’s a huge fetish. And also there’s the cultural aspect of like, you know, some noodles are real good. You supposed to be slurping them. So some people are going to get the fetish of that who have an oral fixation. And then, you know, maybe while she’s riding you, y’all have some oral and it could be cut in with the, you know what I’m saying?
[00:15:08] King Noire: Like to me, it’s always like, okay, it’s hotter because that’s what y’all want.
[00:15:12] Brandon Ware: But I’m feeling the creative, like you must really, you enjoy the creative aspect of your job.
[00:15:16] King Noire: I love it. I think sex is like the. Not only can sex create life, but also it’s a creative expression of your body. It’s a creative expression of your pleasure.
[00:15:27] King Noire: So, for example, I was shooting a scene with Titania and Queen P when I was in, um, in Minneapolis. And the dungeon we were in… Had like a squat rack in it, so that, but you could strap someone up to the squat rack and all this shit, and I love sexual positions that are, that like, just have to be like, exerting energy, or that are tough on the body, because for me personally, when I feel my blood flowing, it makes everything feel cool.
[00:15:58] King Noire: So Jazz and I had shot a [00:16:00] scene back before where she was like eating my ass while I was doing a pull up. So in the squat rack I was like, oh, well now there’s extra people here so I can do more things. So I need you to like, be like massaging me while I’m doing this. Pull up with my legs in the air and like slamming her face into my ass to eat my ass.
[00:16:17] King Noire: Like that shit feels amazing, but it’s like the creative aspect of it. Like we didn’t know that squat rack was in there, but we got to use this fucking squat rack because you know, all, all the different aspects of, of creativity when it comes to sex. Like, even if you just tweak one little thing from what you did last time, you’ll feel something brand new.
[00:16:35] King Noire: Even if you’re doing the same missionary position, you can still fuck completely different every time. It really depends because I kind of try to set things up so that I can take time off to just edit. Masturbate. That too. That’s true. But. I don’t know, it’s hard to kind of quantify, but I do, I do probably shoot anywhere between five to ten scenes a month.
[00:16:58] Jess O’Reilly: Wow, a lot. Do you ever find like, oh, I’m not in the mood? And if you’re not in the mood, do you take a break?
[00:17:03] King Noire: Definitely.
[00:17:04] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:17:04] King Noire: Definitely. And, you know, I, I, it’s interesting because a lot of people think, oh, you do porn, so you just have to fuck all the time. And I do tell people, especially people who are new to the industry, if your body tells you something or your, your brain or your gut is telling you take a break, take a break.
[00:17:19] King Noire: But you know, it happens all the time because we also have complete outside lives of porn.
[00:17:24] Jess O’Reilly: Well, you have kids, you run multiple businesses, you guys, you folks do so much. And you know, I think there’s so many dimensions to what you do when you’re a role model to a lot of people. Let me ask you about the MCing.
[00:17:35] Jess O’Reilly: Why is the rap important to you?
[00:17:36] King Noire: I’ve been rapping since I was like, yeah, since, since I was a little kid and I love to make music of, of all sorts, you know, and porn, just porn music sucks. So I was like, we need to, you know, is it being that I had already done music and like I had a whole career doing, doing hip hop when we [00:18:00] had started royal fetish films, I was just like, I kind of want to make music specifically.
[00:18:05] King Noire: Under the moniker of King Noir, like, what would that sound like? What would that? How can we flip it and bounce it into the movies to kind of like make them different than other people’s scenes that you’ve seen because you know if people are just using the same cut out kind of music or Music that I don’t even know where they find it from.
[00:18:25] King Noire: It’s like 70s foreign music and shit Like how does that enhance the experience for other people and when we were talking about royal fetish films? It was always like when we started it ten years ago now so much porn used black bodies And the aesthetic of blackness, but was not created by black people.
[00:18:42] King Noire: So we want it to be like, well, what is, what is, what is it lacking? And what, what. Would enhance it and one of the things that we thought of was just kind of like Music is like always have sex with music on I kind of I when I don’t have sex with music I’m like all shop got put music on the shit You know I’m saying but it’s like I want it to be my music is then I can kind of write things that go with the fetishes and things that go with Different things that have not been spoken about in hip hop yet.
[00:19:09] King Noire: So it kind of just made me dive in.
[00:19:11] Brandon Ware: That was going to be one of my questions. Does one inspire the other? Do you know what I mean? Like, does the music inspire your production? Does your production inspire your music? Do they compliment one another?
[00:19:21] King Noire: Both, both. Like there was a song on the first Royal Fetish Experience album.
[00:19:26] King Noire: So Somnophilia is the fetish where you enjoy your partner. Having sex with you when you’re like sleep.
[00:19:36] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, I love that.
[00:19:37] Brandon Ware: Oh Tell us more because I feel like we’ve been down this road.
[00:19:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I love it.
[00:19:41] King Noire: So maybe I get too excited there Can’t get too excited never forget to know but it was like jazz told me that she had this fetish years ago And she was like I am consensually giving you the the right that if you’re feeling any type of way And I’m sleep like just just start just go at it.
[00:19:58] King Noire: You know, I’m saying so You [00:20:00] got, you got that too?
[00:20:00] Brandon Ware: I would just, I want to jump in because I’m like, this was us, like 20 years ago. We would, we would be so, I thought we were, but by accident, I feel like we were so exhausted in the middle of the night, all of a sudden we’d wake, I’d wake up and kind of just come to and we’d be having sex.
[00:20:14] Jess O’Reilly: But I’ve also told you that if you ever want to have sex with me when I’m, this is only for Brandon. Like, not for the, all the other folks, not for the other folks, but is anyone who’s sleeping in my bed? How about that? If you’ve gotten into bed, yeah, you have permission.
[00:20:27] Brandon Ware: But yeah, and it was incredibly hot that you’d wake up and it was almost semi dreamlike initially and then kind of coming to and realizing that you’re, I noticed like heightened, uh, like, like Senses sound like I got bit by a spider or something, but I’d wake up radioactively, but I’d wake up and everything was just heightened, like all the physical sensation of touch, like everything.
[00:20:50] Brandon Ware: And then you, I kind of wake up and we were, you know, a third of the way through the, the, the actual process of whatever it was, you know, having sex, the foreplay initially. And it was just, I thought it was great. So please.
[00:21:00] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.
[00:21:00] Brandon Ware: Somnophilia.
[00:21:01] King Noire: So jazz, she, we, so then we shot a scene. She was like, I want to shoot this scene.
[00:21:05] King Noire: And it was co directed by, um, Kaz and Shiro of the spread podcast. Shout out. And, um, so they, uh, we shot this whole, this whole scene and we made it like, you know, Have the consensual aspect, talk about it, because people need to understand, you know, it’s like one of those things you need to talk about this.
[00:21:23] King Noire: Don’t just start fucking people when they sleep. Then you need a consent, an enthusiastic consent. So we shoot the scene, and then after we shoot the scene, I put music to it, and I was just like, The beat that I had from it was from this producer that we knew from Florida, and I was like, Yo, that beat, that beat slaps.
[00:21:38] King Noire: That shit is hot. And then Jazz was like, I’ve never heard a sound affiliate song before. I’m like, I’ve never, I don’t even think anybody’s even used that word in a song before. Trying to rhyme that word in itself. That was my first thought. Somnophilia got me feeling your way deeper than REM. So when you back to sleep, we go back to freak and we can do it all again.
[00:21:55] King Noire: And so I was like, right from there. I was like, Oh, I got a word that [00:22:00] rhymes with somnophilia and then just wrote a song to it. You know what I’m saying? Then we got, um, my homegirl, um, Nora to drop. She wrote a whole verse about it. And sang and was like, yo, this shit, this shit is dope. And that was kind of one of the songs that led to me even doing an album as Kingda War.
[00:22:16] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. We’re going to play that music. As I said, I have so many questions for you. But I, I think because you wear so many hats, you’re an educator, you’re an activist, you’re a performer, you’re a producer, you’re clearly an artist. But when it comes to sex, because people come to you for sex, to learn.
[00:22:29] Jess O’Reilly: What makes sex good? Like what should people be doing differently?
[00:22:34] King Noire: It might sound a little cliche, but it really, to me, is about learning yourself. Sex always gets better when you know, and you’re not holding yourself back. From what it is that you either desire or what pleases you and I think a lot of us have so many hang ups That we’re like for example, I don’t know.
[00:22:53] King Noire: Let’s just take I know I mentioned it earlier ass eating, right? Some people whether giving or receiving might just be like, oh, I don’t want nobody messing with my ass That might change my manhood or whatever the fuck they’re thinking right or I’m not eating somebody else’s ass because that’s not clean And I’ve always been taught that ass is dirty.
[00:23:11] King Noire: Well, one, you know, people can watch. There’s a whole lot of washing that can be done. You can, you can eat some ass in the shower if you need to wash yourself. You should be doing that. Even if you’re not getting your ass eight, you should still wash your ass either either way. But you know what I’m saying?
[00:23:24] King Noire: But like these little hang ups that we have that then are holding us back. From all the pleasure we can have, you know what I’m saying? Or it can be little things. It could be like, I don’t like letting people get on top of me because I don’t feel like I don’t feel in control or I don’t want to ride somebody because I don’t want to lose myself because I know that position feels so good to me.
[00:23:43] King Noire: You know, it’s like, like there’s so many different ways and angles that we deny ourselves pleasure.
[00:23:47] Jess O’Reilly: And gender comes into this. I know you, you talk, because you’re an educator, and you have a whole program on porn and parenting, right? Yes. But you talk about masculinity. Sure. And so, I wonder what that means to you, because we, we hear a lot about [00:24:00] masculinity, the manosphere, some of the toxic masculinity that’s out there, but that’s a separate thing from masculinity in itself.
[00:24:06] Jess O’Reilly: What does it mean to you? Where have we gotten lost, and how do we find ourselves back to a… Beautiful place.
[00:24:12] King Noire: Sure. And this, and this kind of also goes to the last thing we were talking about. I think men leave a lot of pleasure on the table because we are wrapped up in these ideas of what it means to be a man, even in regards to pleasure.
[00:24:25] King Noire: Like it’s changed, like, you know, things slowly change. But I think about like, for example, like first scenes I ever did that I was getting my ass ate or whatever people be like, Oh, that shit is gay. Yeah. I’m like, how is it gay? And it’s a woman that’s eating my ass. Like, not the definition of what gay is, but also even that, calling someone gay or being gay as being referred to as something that is a negative.
[00:24:49] King Noire: I don’t know. If that’s what it is, then I guess I’m that like, you know what I’m saying? That’s fine. Whatever, you know, being able to actually let go of those things. And I think really, it comes from a place of masculinity being defined to us by what a man can control, what a man can dominate. And I don’t mean dominate in the fun way.
[00:25:09] King Noire: And what a man can kind of either build or destroy. Right. And Masculinity does not have to mean that for everybody and really masculinity doesn’t just mean those things because regardless of gender people can build some shit up or fuck some shit up regardless of what the gender is people can dominate a situation regardless of what their gender is, you know, but I do think there is this idea that a man is a man if a man can like basically hurt other people, you know, um, And I don’t think that that, I mean, it’s clearly not healthy.
[00:25:41] King Noire: It’s clearly not helping the world for men to define themselves by being able to hold women back in every single possible aspect or lash out at trans folk or whatever the case, you know, in order to get to a healthy place is to realize that masculinity, femininity are our [00:26:00] ideas, you know, and we all have our own ideas of what it is.
[00:26:03] King Noire: We can all ask. You know, 10 people and get different answers or hundreds of people and get different answers. And all of us don’t live up to what somebody else’s answer is for what femininity or masculinity is. So it’s important to find out what it is for you and how you can be whatever that is in a constructive way that does not Impede on anybody else’s idea of what it is and also hopefully Enhances other people’s ideas of what it is to be masculine feminine or none of that shit You know Like I just think as human beings We should all strive to be the best human being we can be for ourselves and also to add on to the collective world that we live in in a positive way If you’re not hurting other people, if you’re not fucking up other people’s shit and putting them down for who they are, then you live in a positive life.
[00:26:49] King Noire: And that’s how we can actually make the world a better place, ourselves, better people. And then you open yourself up to a whole lot more pleasure because people don’t hate you. You know what I’m saying? Like, people will want good things for you, you’ll want good things for yourself.
[00:27:01] Jess O’Reilly: And you don’t hate yourself.
[00:27:02] King Noire: Facts.
[00:27:02] Jess O’Reilly: There’s a lot of that.
[00:27:02] King Noire: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of that. And then people get wrapped up in those, like, toxic ideas of what masculinity is because they truly hate themselves. So they’re like, alright, I’m gonna go out there and, I don’t know, be fucking Rambo or some shit and Rambo up places that don’t need a fucking Rambo.
[00:27:20] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm.
[00:27:21] King Noire: You know, like, you see, you see these people who have, like, I mean, and we see it, unfortunately, we live in a world where there’s a lot of violence on everybody. Nobody is above or beyond violence in the society that we live in. And a lot of times that violence is from people who truly hate themselves and then lash out at people who seem to be loving themselves and one another.
[00:27:43] Jess O’Reilly: So you have a son, how are you raising him differently?
[00:27:47] King Noire: To be himself, to, to… It’s, it’s okay to, I think a lot of times as men, we want our sons to be the things that either we have [00:28:00] accomplished or the things we wish we could have accomplished and then push them to do shit that they really don’t want to find, you know, so it’s like trying to associate the things that he is interested in and support him in that.
[00:28:12] King Noire: But then also provide some of the knowledge and experience that I’ve gained in life like hopefully like hey There’s some big ass mistakes that I made. Please don’t make the same ones make your own You know and just trying to also show like I didn’t grow up with any real love from my father like that So just even being able to say like I love you I think is, is different than how I was raised.
[00:28:35] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that’s a big thing. That’s not something that was said in my
[00:28:38] Brandon Ware: family. I think it was said in my family, but it lacked meaning. And, and, but no, no, no. And, and I don’t mean, do you know what I mean? Like, it was just like, Oh, I love you. Yeah. Okay. Love you. You know what I mean? And there was no depth. There was no sincerity.
[00:28:52] Brandon Ware: And I think that maybe I shouldn’t say that there was, but it was flippant. And. Uh, I think when somebody expresses it, but then the actions reflect it, it’s, it’s so much more meaningful. And I think just listening to you describe how you love your son and your children. I can’t imagine that the world isn’t going to be a better place as a result of how you’re interacting and how you’re, you’re modeling behavior for how they should navigate themselves in this world.
[00:29:23] Brandon Ware: Like, it just seems like such a. A sincere and loving relationship that’s only going to make the world better.
[00:29:30] Jess O’Reilly: So true. Okay. We’ve taken so much of your time. Oh, thank you for having me. But no, I know you have to go, but I want to quickly ask you about Kink in Costa Rica.
[00:29:38] King Noire: Oh, everybody needs to come with Jasmine and me literally to Costa Rica.
[00:29:44] King Noire: Uh, we’re doing actually, we’re doing, um, this will be year two of Kink in Costa Rica. And we get people together to go travel through, I mean, it’s a beautiful place. We take some day trips and all that. We have a [00:30:00] amazing chef who cooks up everything that’s pretty much like locally called local farm to table type shit.
[00:30:07] King Noire: It’s the food is amazing. But then at night. We get wow, kinky, like, like extremely, like, so we do what it could be like one night we might just focus on bondage. Another night we might focus on, uh, on impact play or something like that. Kind of teach it and then it’s open play for the night. But these are people now that you’ve been able to bond with on our day trip to go to the beach or, you know, hung out with at the pool because it’s actually two pools.
[00:30:35] King Noire: At the spot. And we have masseuses on site and it’s completely just us. There’s nobody from the outside. That’ll be there. That isn’t somebody who either, uh, is working or another performer or teacher or something like that. So it’s like, you don’t have to worry about other folks getting in your way or anything like that.
[00:30:57] King Noire: So you can truly immerse yourself in with other people who are kinky as fuck like you are and into similar things or into different things. And then y’all could learn from one another and just, oh, we was getting it in out there. And it’s couples, singles, anyone can come? It could be singles, whatever your orientation is.
[00:31:13] King Noire: You know, we actually have interviews with everybody prior to, to make sure that people are there for the right reasons and whatnot. And then we have a big group meeting prior to, so people can either. Exchange information or just at least ask some questions of their fellow, their fellow travel mates.
[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: And I know you and Jasmine do such a good job creating a safe space.
[00:31:36] Jess O’Reilly: So people should check this out. King, king Costa Rica. Your website is king noir.com. But Noir has an E on the end, folks. Yes, king Noir do not.com.
[00:31:47] King Noire: You can actually go to kink and costa rica.com too.
[00:31:49] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, thanks.
[00:31:49] King Noire: So you could go, you, you can go straight there. And, Submit your application and you will be speaking with one of the Royal Fetish team members to see if you can come with us.[00:32:00]
[00:32:00] Jess O’Reilly: I love it. I love it. Thank you for all the work that you do. You’re creating art, obviously, you’re creating beauty, you’re creating sexuality, sensuality, and you’re doing important activism. We didn’t really get a chance to talk about. I wanted to ask you about one of your posts around what has changed since 2020 when people wanted to hear your voice and now it seems like they’ve taken their foot off of that.
[00:32:18] Jess O’Reilly: Hmm have to maybe save that for another time.
[00:32:20] King Noire: Well, I will say this it’s interesting how people think, you know transformative how transformative a post or uh I don’t know a little a little thing that your company does once can be held up against for 500 years of oppression. It don’t really work that way.
[00:32:40] King Noire: It’s something that needs to be done every day by all of us to work together to, like we said earlier, build a better world. But if, and if people are interested, you can definitely find me at K I N G N O I R E on most things that haven’t been, uh, shadow banned or shut down. So Twitter or X, you know what I’m saying?
[00:32:58] King Noire: Instagram, kingnoir. com. KingNoirXXX. com if you feel a little frisky. WorldFetishXXX. com and Kink in Costa Rica. Lots of places, there’s lots of places, but um, yeah. And if you want to check out the music, Spotify, iTunes, Tidal, everywhere. Everywhere that is found.
[00:33:17] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, throw to your song. New single, King says.
[00:33:20] King Noire: Shout out to everybody in Jersey. There’s some Jersey club shit. Instructional fuck music. Enjoy. I hate to see you go, but love to see you walk away Your body language, talk, and everything you got to say Once them hips sway, strip you out that lingerie I can lick it all night, and I can hit it all day You got brains and a bod, down to suck your slob Pleasure that punani till you squirt like a tsunami Got me clapping up on them cheeks, snacking up on that peach Slap it up with this meat till you grappling on my tongue, pull you close so don’t run Filthy rhyme with a dirty mind Yo, comes.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] King Noire: Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Just make that pussy POP Load it up for the back shots Fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Gonna fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on Gonna fuck around, get fucked on Fuck around, get fucked on You gonna fuck around, get fucked on Said you love to choke Hands around your throat Said you love to Choke Then go down ya throat Said you love to choke Hands around ya throat Said you love to choke Then go down ya throat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Just pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Pull it out, eat it Stick it back in, stroke repeat Now grind in it, just wind in it Grind in it, take your time in it Now grind in it, just wind in it, take your time with it.
[00:35:09] King Noire: I stroke you, throw it back, I spit, spit it back. Lick it from the back, spit, spit it back. spit it back. Lick it from the back, I spit, you spit it back. Like, come until your legs shake. Fuckin till the bear break. Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break. Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break.
[00:35:34] King Noire: Comin to your legs shaked. Fuckin till the bear break.
- Lyssna Lyssna igen Fortsätt Lyssnar...
- Lyssna senare Lyssna senare
A Guide to Compassionate Communication
14 sep 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
How do you cultivate deeper connections through communication?How can you summon compassion in the heat of conflict?How do you define non-violent communication?What is polyvagal theory?
Sander T. Jones joins Jess and Brandon to explore these questions and share additional concepts from their book, Cultivating Connection: A Practical Guide for Personal and Relationship Growth in ethical non-monogamy.Â
Sander is a licensed clinical social worker, certified hypnotherapist, and author in Atlanta, Georgia with over a decade of experience working with people in ethically non-monogamous relationships, people in the kink/BDSM/Leather communities, LGBTQ+ communities, and people doing voluntary sex work. As a relationship therapist they have taught hundreds of people the steps and principles for repairing relationship bonds and then deepening those bonds through collaborative communication, respecting the rights and autonomy of themselves and their partners, being aware of interpersonal power, and avoiding the abuse of that power when it arises in our relationships. You can contact Sander at SanderTJones.com and following on Facebook and Instagram.

Save with code PODCAST on the Mindful Sex Course on the Happier Couples website.
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
A Guide to Compassionate Communication
Episode 334
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight
[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: here in Atlanta at sex down south. And the reason you know, we’re at six down south is that I have no voice left.
[00:00:21] Brandon Ware: I was going to say, you got your sexy voice going on.
[00:00:23] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my dear God. And it’s not from being in the dungeon.
[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not from doing anything fun. I think it’s just from dry air.
[00:00:28] Brandon Ware: You should have said it was something fun.
[00:00:29] Jess O’Reilly: I know. I know. I wish it was something more fun, but we are having a great time. And if you’ve ever listened before and heard me talk about Sex Town South, I think it’s the most brilliant sex conference.
[00:00:39] Jess O’Reilly: It is my absolute favorite. Uh, I’m such a massive fan of Marla and Tia, the founders. Marla, of course, is the coauthor of our latest book. And, uh, among the brilliant minds who are presenting here in Atlanta, we have with us right now, Sander T. Jones, a licensed clinical social worker, certified hypnotherapist.
[00:00:55] Jess O’Reilly: Ooh, I want to ask you about that. author. Uh, you’re located in Atlanta. You have over a decade of experience and you’ve recently released Cultivating Connection, a practical guide for personal and relationship growth in ethical non monogamy. Thank you for chatting with us.
[00:01:08] Sander T. Jones: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:10] Sander T. Jones: It’s really an honor to be on your show.
[00:01:11] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, well, we’re, we’re so appreciative. I’m excited to learn from you. I’ve looked over all of the wealth of info. in your latest book, Cultivating Connection. I think it’s your first book, right? It is my first book. Yes. Congrats on that. Well, first and foremost, tell us about you.
[00:01:24] Jess O’Reilly: Tell us a little bit about your background, professional, personal, anything you feel like sharing.
[00:01:27] Sander T. Jones: Okay. Professional background. I specialize in treating people in the ethically non monogamous communities. Also LGBTQ plus communities, kink, BDSM and leather communities and people who do voluntary sex work.
[00:01:39] Sander T. Jones: Therapeutically, I specialize in treating trauma and doing relationship therapy. My personal background is one where I come from a background where I went through a lot of abuse as a child and spent a good 25 years working on myself before I became trained to be a therapist. And so a lot of what has motivated me to write a book and the future books I plan on [00:02:00] writing is that when I was young, and of course not very functional because of all this complex PTSD I had, I couldn’t afford therapy and I leaned a lot on self help books.
[00:02:07] Sander T. Jones: So I’m wanting to give back and write those books now using the therapeutic knowledge and experience I have so that people who either can’t access therapy or want to use self help books as an adjunct to their therapy have these resources.
[00:02:20] Jess O’Reilly: And so when you were relying on self help books, did you see yourself?
[00:02:23] Jess O’Reilly: reflected in the identities of the authors, in the case studies, in the information you were receiving?
[00:02:29] Sander T. Jones: Often, no. But, um, but those of us in minority communities, we’ve learned a long time ago to translate and try to make things understandable for ourselves. So, um, I am writing very much from a very queer perspective and very, um, affirming of people in the kink BDSM communities, people doing power dynamic relationships so that we don’t have to translate.
[00:02:49] Jess O’Reilly: You know, I wonder, I imagine people arrive at your office. Having seen therapists who maybe weren’t kink aware, weren’t kink friendly, what have you heard, what are, what’s really missing from traditional, I shouldn’t say traditional, Western therapeutic training and practice for folks who are in the BDSM community?
[00:03:05] Sander T. Jones: Oh, that’s a really long list. I will say that it’s, it’s getting a little bit better. Um, I’m seeing more and more trainings that are mainstream that include some aspect for non monogamy. But I haven’t seen much yet for kink. It’s, it’s still really not addressed at all, I think, in our training. And so, since people are raised in this culture and come to things with their own biases, If those are never addressed in our training, then the therapists are walking into working with clients with their own personal biases of this must be unhealthy, this must be, you’re only interested in this because you were traumatized in some way.
[00:03:42] Sander T. Jones: If we fix and heal your trauma, you won’t want to do this weird kinky stuff, or you’re reliving your trauma, or you know, things like that.
[00:03:48] Jess O’Reilly: kink has the potential to help to heal trauma. Very much. We hear that all the time from clients, many of us have been through that.
[00:03:56] Sander T. Jones: It’s important to remember that.
[00:03:58] Sander T. Jones: That kink practice isn’t therapy, [00:04:00] but can be therapeutic, can be very therapeutic.
[00:04:02] Jess O’Reilly: I really appreciate that distinction, but also just the recognition of any practice that is therapeutic. And I think that’s so important for those of us, maybe, you know, when we come from a cultural background where therapy wasn’t not just inaccessible to us, even if it was accessible financially, we would have never pursued it.
[00:04:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like I’m the first generation for sure in my family where we would actually go and seek support. I think about like a very significant trauma in my family in 1955 and I’m not going to get into what it is because it’s deeply personal and a, you know, a headline that is so frightening. And my, my mom was five years old.
[00:04:33] Jess O’Reilly: Her cousins were all in that range. There were 35 of them who grew up around the block together actually. And therapy was not an option, right? Um, you know, covering up, made up stories. Those types of things were options, but not therapy. And so, for us, to go back to where I was at a moment ago, so many different practices were therapeutic, if not therapy itself.
[00:04:53] Jess O’Reilly: So, okay, so your book is about personal and relationship growth in ethical non monogamy. I think the messages contained therein are relevant to everybody, regardless of whether you’re ethically non monogamous, whether you’re queer, whether you’re kinky, whether you’re vanilla, all the things in between.
[00:05:08] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s really focused on healthy relationships. So why don’t we start there? Like the million dollar question. Yes. What does it mean to be in a healthy relationship?
[00:05:17] Sander T. Jones: It’s this, how do I sum that up? I did include early in the book, um, a description of healthy relationships and the spirit of healthy relationships and how to approach communication with this.
[00:05:28] Sander T. Jones: Spirit of collaboration and love and affection, mostly because so many of us come from a background where we didn’t just have that in our families and we didn’t see it that if you have no frame of reference for it, you have no idea if the conflict in your relationships is of a damaging value or what we might think of as a as a normal value or healable.
[00:05:48] Sander T. Jones: And so we don’t know whether or not to take the measurement of this relationship and say this is just too toxic and I need to remove myself or this has the potential to improve and get better and heal or this is really [00:06:00] great and I should really appreciate it. You know, if you don’t have that frame of reference, so I wanted to include that as a frame of reference early in the book for those of us who don’t historically come from people who would demonstrate that for us.
[00:06:10] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And if you’ve only seen one version, you can either go for something exactly like that. Or I’m sure you see in your practice as well. People go for the. exact opposite to another extreme. So when you talk about healthy relationships or even healthy conflict, what does it look like for you? What are some of the values that you would see in a healthy relationship, acknowledging that health means different things to different people and no two relationships are the same.
[00:06:30] Sander T. Jones: It’s a, it’s a balance between what’s healthy and growth inspiring for the individual and what builds the trust and security and health of the relationship. And when we do this with the right mindset and the right methods and the right understanding of these things. They work symbiotically together.
[00:06:48] Sander T. Jones: I’ve I’ve seen a lot of confusion with my clients coming in, especially wanting to talk about the topic of boundaries, almost as though they think boundaries are there to protect me from the needs of my relationship or from the needs of my partner, as though these things are in opposition. And so I started the book trying to just clarify that I was writing blog posts and trying to clarify this information.
[00:07:08] Jess O’Reilly: So when you talk about that Balance. How do you figure out how much is too much to, for example, compromise or give up or shift for the relationship versus, listen, we’re humans and we’re going to live in community. So you have to make adjustments. I can’t just do what I want all the time. Do people come to you with those issues?
[00:07:25] Jess O’Reilly: And is there a way to identify how much it’s okay to shift, to change, to evolve, to even compromise with the spirit of, as you said, collaboration in mind?
[00:07:34] Sander T. Jones: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in a way that that is exactly what people tend to come to relationship counseling for. And if they come early enough, that’s what they’re coming for.
[00:07:41] Sander T. Jones: If they come late enough, they’re coming with that and months or years of resentments and anger built up at each other because they’ve been struggling with that. Uh, how do we know when we’re giving away too much and when we are not giving enough that balance? is built on the back of several concepts. I start with what I consider our basic [00:08:00] human rights.
[00:08:00] Sander T. Jones: And when I say that, it means if we compromise on these, it will literally cause us harm. It will cause harm to our self esteem, our self respect, our feeling of safety in the world. And I see people struggling with wondering whether or not they should compromise on something like that or learn how to just be okay with somebody literally violating one of their basic human rights.
[00:08:20] Sander T. Jones: So I start by teaching people this, and that these are non negotiable. That we have to learn how to look inward and ask ourselves whether or not this is going to harm me on a basic level. Like, if I felt like I was… Non monogamous to my core, and I needed that in order to be happy in my life and happy in my relationships, and I was involved with somebody who could only be happy if they were monogamous.
[00:08:41] Sander T. Jones: If I try to compromise on that, it’s going to harm me. If they try to compromise on theirs, it’s going to harm them. But if I’m a person where I can be flexible with that, because some people see it more as a relationship structure, and they can be happy in a non monogamous structure or in a monogamous structure, now I can potentially be flexible with that without harming myself.
[00:08:59] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I see this difference between identity and preference, or even strong preference. And I think you and I probably fall into that. Like, I wouldn’t consider myself a non monogamist in terms of identity, but I definitely can live in a relationship and enjoy and thrive in a relationship that is not monogamous, ethically non monogamous, just as I could.
[00:09:16] Jess O’Reilly: I know I can also thrive and live my life to its fullest, at times, in a monogamist relationship. And I don’t know. I’m 40. How old am I? 43 years old. I don’t know how I’ll feel when I’m 53 or 63. So it’s not at least at this point in my life, part of my essence, part of my identity. Whereas for example, being Chinese Jamaican is being queer is like, these are a part of me.
[00:09:36] Jess O’Reilly: So you talk about basic human rights and relationships. And I know that folks need to check out this book, Cultivating Connection, Practical Guide for Personal and Relationship Growth and Ethical Non Monogamy to learn more. But can you tell us? What some of those basic human rights are, you’ve already, you know, clarified some of them have to do with your identity.
[00:09:51] Sander T. Jones: Yes, we have the right to, there’s 13 of them. I’m probably not going to remember them all off the top of my head, but there’s the right to full bodily and sexual autonomy. There’s a [00:10:00] right to be spoken to with respect and treated with dignity, the right to determine our own identities and Build our outward expression around that, the right to love who we choose to love, be friends with who we choose to be friends with and invest energy in maintaining those relationships, the right to be given the information we need for informed consent and for that information to be given in a timely and honest and clear manner.
[00:10:23] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a pretty good memory, because even when it’s your own work, it’s always hard to keep up, especially if you’re a person who’s coming up with all these different concepts. Yes. Right, I find that, you know, I can write things, I can create things, I can talk about them, and then I just put them out of my mind.
[00:10:34] Jess O’Reilly: But, and I think that the framework of basic human rights within a relationship could be so helpful, and my… Estimation would be that if I read through the ones you’ve come up with, it would help me to kind of identify which ones are core to me and maybe others that I need to pull in. So I think that’s a really great framework from which to begin when you’re starting in a relationship.
[00:10:53] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s never too late. Of course, anyone in the field who’s helping wishes people would come to us earlier. Yes, of course. Yes. But it’s also never too late to make that change to start to have those, those conversations. So I hear you speaking about a number of concepts. The concept of collaboration keeps coming up.
[00:11:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. As essential to a healthy relationship. You also write about non violent communication. And I think when people think non violent, we think, oh, you’re not yelling and screaming at me. Although that can be very cultural as well, because my family yells and screams in love. But what does that mean to really engage in non violent communication?
[00:11:24] Sander T. Jones: Sure. Uh, non violent communication, um, is, it’s an old, very old book written by somebody Rosenberg. And, uh, what, what he’s referencing when he says that is that Um, we often tend to judge everything and if when we’re communicating with each other, we’re often throwing judgments back and forth. So he’s talking about removing those judgments as they are, whether they’re spoken calmly or through yelling, they are violent.
[00:11:48] Sander T. Jones: They are doing violence to the other person. And so when we say, you didn’t do the dishes, do you think you’re too good to do the dishes? You lazy SOB, whether we’re yelling it or saying it quietly, we are attacking the other person and we’re throwing our [00:12:00] judgments of their character and their behavior at them.
[00:12:02] Sander T. Jones: And even the fact that they didn’t do the dishes as wrong and bad, you know,
[00:12:05] Jess O’Reilly: right? That theory of there isn’t always a good and a bad, there isn’t always a right and a wrong. That’s a really hard thing. Like for me personally to wrap my mind, right? And so letting go of. Those belief systems and judgment is so hard.
[00:12:19] Jess O’Reilly: So what’s the alternative to that? If I’m pissed off that Brennan hasn’t done the dishes, which is not the case because you’re definitely the dishes doer around here.
[00:12:27] Brandon Ware: I’m always doing the dishes, but I also don’t mind.
[00:12:30] Jess O’Reilly: This poor guy never stops doing dishes because I’m constantly cooking for like 30.
[00:12:33] Brandon Ware: We’re always having a party. And it’s never for, like, two people. Yeah. It’s like, let’s have a party and invite 50 people.
[00:12:39] Jess O’Reilly: Always. Into our tiny little, tiny little space. So if I’m mad that he’s not doing the dishes, what is the alternative to non violent communication around that?
[00:12:47] Sander T. Jones: Well, it starts with just…
[00:12:49] Sander T. Jones: Expressing what you see and how you feel about it. Hmm. I see dishes in the kitchen, I feel upset by that. So there’s no attack of Brandon there. Right. It’s just this, I, I feel upset I see dishes in the kitchen. And then it invites a conversation about what were you expecting? I didn’t think that was expected of me just now.
[00:13:07] Jess O’Reilly: Hmm. You know. You know, that makes me also think it invites a reflection on my part. Like, why do I have this expectation? Is it because I did all the cooking and I expect him to do the cleaning? Or is it because I believe that it’s Brandon’s job to do the dishes because he always does the dishes? Is it because I have an expectation where I want the dishes done immediately, whereas other people don’t really care if the dishes sit in the sink overnight?
[00:13:27] Jess O’Reilly: And I have to admit, that’s where letting go of the judgment is hard, because me? I cannot fathom leaving the dishes in the sink overnight, but that is a personal value and, and I’m putting that judgment on other people. Like it’s no big deal if dishes sit in the sink, like the world will not come to an end.
[00:13:41] Jess O’Reilly: My identity will not collapse. My basic human rights and my relationship are probably unaffected. So it takes you back to that framework you’ve created.
[00:13:47] Sander T. Jones: Right. But when we speak with those judgments, now we’re attacking the other person. And not only does the other person respond defensively, but now there’s actual damage happening to the bond between the two people.
[00:13:58] Sander T. Jones: Because whether [00:14:00] Brandon is getting the message that you’re not appreciating the fact that he’s kept up with the dishes really well up to now, or you didn’t even ask him whether or not there’s a reason he didn’t do them today, like maybe he’s got a migraine, whatever the reason is.
[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe his thumb hurts.
[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: Does your thumb hurt too much to do the dishes?
[00:14:14] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that’s the reason why I didn’t do the dishes.
[00:14:17] Jess O’Reilly: Right, the context is so important.
[00:14:19] Sander T. Jones: Exactly. And so as soon as we start attacking the other person, because we have all these assumptions in our minds and they feel attacked, it feels on this subconscious level, like you suddenly don’t care about me.
[00:14:30] Sander T. Jones: You don’t care about me. You don’t care about my feelings. You don’t care about what’s important to me. Maybe I didn’t do the dishes because I had homework. I’m working on this master’s degree. How can you not care about what I value? And then we’re feeling this rift happen. In the relationship bond. And so whenever there’s an argument going on, there’s usually two arguments happening at the same time.
[00:14:48] Sander T. Jones: We’re only aware of the surface level one, which is who’s going to wash the dishes and when is it going to happen? But right underneath the surface, especially for people in bonded relationships, is this argument about do you still care about me? And if I’m starting to get the messages that you don’t care, it’s literally going to send some people into the panicky fight flight freeze response because those relationship bonds are so core to our happiness and security and stability as people.
[00:15:13] Sander T. Jones: So that’s where we get sent into a panic. Have you ever wondered how people could get into such heated arguments over things like, did you buy stamps or did you do the dishes? It’s because the argument is really about the bond and the relationship and whether or not you’re communicating to me that you don’t care about my feelings right now.
[00:15:27] Brandon Ware: So all of these things that you’re saying are so listen, I’m reflecting on them. I think they’re, they’re insightful, but a lot of people don’t. Want to even either. They don’t know how or they don’t know where to begin to start having these conversations because
[00:15:41] Jess O’Reilly: we’re to stop ourselves from going to that place.
[00:15:43] Brandon Ware: It’s so introspective, right? So I’m sitting here. I’m like, yeah, I’m angry because she’s angry because I didn’t do the dishes. And it’s like, well, what’s the root issue? How do I get there? How do you. Encourage people to even begin. Is it going back to your basic human right principles? Like, is that where you start the conversation [00:16:00] to get to some of these deeper questions?
[00:16:01] Sander T. Jones: Well, no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t start there. First, I’d say it’s really important for everyone to have compassion for themselves in that this is how we’ve not only typically been raised in our families to communicate with each other, but it’s also what we see in media. It’s what we see our friends doing.
[00:16:16] Sander T. Jones: I mean, so. Most of us don’t know any better, and growth is is typically a slow, multi stepped process. So right now, we’re just sort of drawing people’s attention to the fact there is a possibility of doing this differently. Where I would start is when we notice that we’re in any sort of heated discussion at all, we’re somewhere on the dimmer dial of the fight, flight, freeze response.
[00:16:36] Sander T. Jones: You know, you start it at calm. and collaborative and happy and affectionate and bonded. And you can go to a little bit irritated or a little bit nervous. And then you can go to angry or frightened. And then you can go all the way over here into enraged or terrified. All of that is somewhere on the dimmer dial of the fight flight freeze response.
[00:16:53] Sander T. Jones: And when we’re in the fight flight freeze response, we’re literally… Our brains are impaired. It cuts off access to the executive functions of problem solving and empathy and compassion gets shut off. Which is why that thing that… We might have been thinking about our partner for months, but we don’t say because we’re kind and we don’t want to be mean and we care about their feelings.
[00:17:14] Sander T. Jones: As soon as we get into a heated argument and empathy gets cut off, it suddenly sounds like that truth they need to hear. Because empathy is the filter.
[00:17:21] Brandon Ware: I’m so glad that you brought up the words empathy and compassion. The last, uh, week or two, I’ve really been reflecting on that. And so much so that every time I’m having a conversation with someone, I’m crossing someone on the street, I’m taking an opportunity to try and feel compassion for them.
[00:17:36] Brandon Ware: And focusing in on that compassion has really helped. Like it immediately kind of, it dismantles that anger. irritation and I feel more receptive. I I’m more inclined to problem solve. I’m more inclined to think about the perspective of the other person and how they’re feeling. So that compassion element has been a game changer for me lately.
[00:17:58] Brandon Ware: Just focusing [00:18:00] in. on it. It’s been really helpful.
[00:18:02] Jess O’Reilly: How do you access that compassion in the heat of the moment, though?
[00:18:04] Sander T. Jones: I just want to respond to what you said real quickly, though. That is beautiful. That sounds like a very conscious, purposeful exercise in bringing yourself to what Polyvagal Theory calls safe and social mode.
[00:18:16] Sander T. Jones: That if you’re walking around in this place of anger, then you’re you’re in Fight, flight, freeze, even if it’s just a little bit, you’re in fight mode. And you’re consciously taking that opportunity to bring yourself out of that and into what polyvagal theory calls safe and social mode. And so that, that applies to what we’re talking about with heated arguments in that we need to be in that safe and social mode to problem solve with our partners well, to have compassion and empathy for our partners so that we can solve problems from a collaborative.
[00:18:46] Sander T. Jones: place. But when we go into fight flight freeze, we can’t access that fight flight freeze either causes the sympathetic nervous system or the dorsal vagal nerve to take over. And we lose access to those executive brain functions that we need. So the first step is for people to start recognizing that they’re in fight flight freeze.
[00:19:03] Sander T. Jones: What are the symptoms they can recognize in themselves? Cause there’s a bunch of symptoms. There’s some, no one can recognize like your digestion slows down. But we’ll each recognize our own unique symptoms. Like I tend to notice a kind of a tunnel vision and ringing in my ears. Other people will notice their heart speed up or their handshake.
[00:19:20] Sander T. Jones: Some people will feel a flush of heat as they go into anger and that heat and red that they see in their eyes. Others will feel more of a blood draining from their face and that ice water feeling in your intestines. So whatever symptoms you can recognize in yourself, learn to label that I’m somewhere in fight flight freeze.
[00:19:38] Sander T. Jones: My brain is now impaired and it’s just as irresponsible for me to continue a conversation with my partner right now as it would be for me to drink and drive because that’s also brain impairment.
[00:19:49] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely. Brandon, I just want to mention, I can see the vein come out on your forehead when you go into the, uh, I really do.
[00:19:56] Brandon Ware: I have, I have a vein that pops out of my forehead, [00:20:00] but I, It’s not here right now. Is it not? Good. Good. I’m feeling compassion. Um, but in all seriousness, I, you know, I, I realized that I had modeled behavior growing up about, you know, I jokingly called it zero to 60 or zero to 100 and it was just that immediate sort of irritation, anger, you know, You cutting off the ability to problem solve, to think, and to be compassionate.
[00:20:23] Brandon Ware: Like that was what was modeled and, you know, learning to turn inwards has been, you know, very helpful. It’s not perfect. I’m not great at it, but just saying the word compassion immediately makes me think about the other person’s perspective. And I notice that it, it just, again, it just dismantles it. It kind of all the, all the walls start coming down right off the bat.
[00:20:46] Brandon Ware: And I’m enjoying this new kind of pathway to problem solving. It’s not perfect, but it’s, it’s a great starting point.
[00:20:56] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a great strategy to share because not everybody’s will be the same, but you just thinking of the word is a way to calm that nervous system, right? Yes. I guess ease or assuage the brain impairment you’re describing me.
[00:21:08] Jess O’Reilly: I often think about like leading from my heart. I literally think about my chest like, and I, cause I feel a human connection to everybody. And I just think about like, am I, am I approaching this person with my heart? Cause I do believe, I believe we love everyone. I know we throw the word love around for people we’re very close to romantic love, but I do think there’s.
[00:21:25] Jess O’Reilly: the universal human love. So I think we all have our strategies and I’m sure in practice you help people with different ways to kind of access that compassion in light of that brain impairment.
[00:21:35] Sander T. Jones: I love what you just said about love because it reminds me of bell hooks definition of love. You, um, her book, um, all about love, new visions.
[00:21:43] Sander T. Jones: And she talks about people think that love is just this feeling that you feel for someone else. She has a different word for that. And she talks about love as this is a practice. This is a set of skills, the way we speak to people, the way we interact with them. This is a practice that we need to make sustainable and as a [00:22:00] daily practice.
[00:22:01] Sander T. Jones: And the more close and bonded our relationships, the more we’re going to do that with that person every day, multiple times a day. all day long. It’s about how we’re interacting with them, communicating to them that we value them, and we feel this affection for them, and we want to nurture their growth.
[00:22:16] Sander T. Jones: That’s the will to nurture our own and another’s growth. And so there’s that focus on growth again. And when I read that, it fed right into what I was trying to articulate about when the individuals are taking responsibility for their own individual growth. It impacts positively the growth of the relationship and the growth of the relationship is impacting positively the growth of the individuals in it.
[00:22:38] Brandon Ware: Bell hooks definition to me resonated so much, you know, the way I interpret it was kind of like supporting your partner to live their best life. Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? And that for me, I was like, wow, how, how. What a wonderful definition of what love is for me to help my partner live the best version of their life I would imagine that my partner is going to be like wow, you want me to live this way?
[00:23:01] Brandon Ware: I want you to live this way too. And it’s just this cyclical, you know effect where You, you benefit, you both benefit so much.
[00:23:09] Jess O’Reilly: And if you see love as limitless, it’s easier to look at relationships that way. Like we’ve talked about it many times on the podcast, whether it’s something in your career, something socially for you, something practical, something health related, something sexual.
[00:23:21] Jess O’Reilly: I always, I’m like, why would I want to hold you back in this short life we have together? I want you to have. all the joy, all the pleasure, all the fulfillment. And I’m not saying that I’m going to compromise everything, all of my values. And I, that’s why I’m really interested in reading more about these basic human rights, because sometimes your desires could be at odds with those basic human rights.
[00:23:40] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s a great way to figure out what your own are, read through the ones in your book, of course, and then figure out which ones really resonate with you. Now you’ve, you were talking about. That flow between personal growth and relational wellness or fulfillment and actually when you brought it up the first time the first my first thought was bell hooks definition of love and it brings to me to [00:24:00] some another concept in your book around personal responsibility flow chart.
[00:24:03] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. So I’d love for you to explain that to us to kind of close things out and how that’s relevant. in relationships regardless of whether you’re monogamous or non monogamous. And if we have time, I’m also curious how these things might apply differently in ethically non monogamous relationships, but to the personal responsibility flow chart.
[00:24:20] Sander T. Jones: So, um, just before getting to the personal responsibility flow chart there, there’s a lot of collaborative work that I recommend people do. So because if you can come to those solutions over thing, whether it’s the dishes or whether or not somebody is going to take a promotion and the whole family has to move to another state, working through those things collaboratively and trying to find solutions that work for everyone is the direction to go first.
[00:24:41] Sander T. Jones: If those don’t work, now we need something like the personal responsibility flow chart because, and. In a way, I think this goes back to there, there is some criticism out there about nonviolent communication that it can leave room for people to abuse the concept. And so this next part really, I think, solves that problem.
[00:24:58] Sander T. Jones: So once you understand the individual human rights, then you get to, you’ve got to figure out if. If you’ve come to a solution, but people still have painful emotions, or you’ve not able to come to a solution because people just want really different things. Now you have to ask the question, who’s responsible for what?
[00:25:16] Sander T. Jones: What growth is my work to do? What growth is the other person’s work to do? And I really encourage people to not think of this as who’s right and who’s wrong. But sometimes when, if I’m feeling insecure, and I think the only solution to that is controlling my partner’s behavior, I’m now overstepping, and I’m trying to re…
[00:25:34] Sander T. Jones: Direct their human rights and calling it controlling. Of course, sounds judgmental, but it’s still, that’s my growth work to do. So the personal responsibility flow chart starts with a painful emotion and you can work the chart in two different directions. So in one direction, it’s let’s see the painful emotion I’m feeling is guilt.
[00:25:51] Sander T. Jones: My partner maybe is telling me that I’m hurting them in some way. I feel badly about it, but I don’t know what else to do, and I’m feeling this [00:26:00] guilt. So the first question to ask myself is, did I violate one of their basic human rights? And I review all 13 rights, and if I determine that I have, I need to take responsibility for that.
[00:26:09] Sander T. Jones: I need to apologize. I need to make amends if I can, and I need to go back to respecting their human rights. But if I didn’t violate one of their human rights, the next question to ask is, did I violate one of our relationship agreements? If I did, same process. I own up to it. I admit it. I apologize. I make amends if I can, and I go back to respecting the relationship agreement, or it means we need to renegotiate this relationship agreement.
[00:26:31] Sander T. Jones: Relationship agreements can always be renegotiated. Human rights are non negotiable. But, if I feel guilty, and I didn’t violate one one of their rights, and I didn’t violate a relationship agreement, then I have work to do. Because why am I feeling guilty? And if the other person is telling me I’ve harmed them, then I maybe need to learn to stand up for myself and say, no, I didn’t do that.
[00:26:51] Sander T. Jones: I didn’t violate your rights. I didn’t violate a relationship agreement. I understand you’re upset with me, but that doesn’t sound like it’s my work to do. The guilt is my work to do. The learning to stand up for myself is, but the reason the other person’s upset, that’s probably their work to do. And so working the chart on the other side, it’s the same way.
[00:27:06] Sander T. Jones: If I’m upset with someone and I feel they’ve wronged me or they’ve harmed me, I ask, did they violate one of my rights? If the answer is yes, then I need them to acknowledge that. I need them to make amends if possible. I need them to go back to respecting my rights. An important caveat there is my ability to do that might be limited by my interpersonal power in the situation.
[00:27:24] Sander T. Jones: Okay. Now that’s really important because people often come to me. being really upset with themselves that they didn’t stand up for themselves in a given situation. But when we examine it, it would have been way too costly for them. And so they need to engage some compassion for themselves. So it’s a lot easier for me to stand up for myself if I’m at either the power up position or an equal power position.
[00:27:44] Sander T. Jones: Let’s say a friend has asked me for a favor and I’m helping them with something and then they get upset and they start cursing me out and talking very disrespectfully to me. It’s easy for me to say, hey, it’s not okay to talk to me like that. You need to talk to me respectfully or I’m going to go home.
[00:27:56] Sander T. Jones: I’m not going to help you with your project. But what if that person is now my boss and I’m [00:28:00] dependent on that paycheck? I need it or my career is dependent on this person or my family is dependent on this income. There’s multiple people dependent on me. The cost is really high now for me to stand up to my boss and say, it’s not okay to speak to me that way.
[00:28:12] Sander T. Jones: I’m aware I could get fired. I’m aware he could send me home and I could lose hours of work or essentially dock my pay. I could miss the next promotion. You know? So now I’m being forced to choose between two things I value highly. My self respect and my livelihood.
[00:28:26] Jess O’Reilly: And that really speaks to why some people have more access to these tools, to these strategies, and across, I think, the relationship research area, field, or psychology, or medicine.
[00:28:38] Jess O’Reilly: It just doesn’t apply unless we take the nuance with which you, yes, absolutely, and you’re applying that lens here. So I’m really looking forward.
[00:28:46] Sander T. Jones: Yeah.
[00:28:46] Jess O’Reilly: To reading this book. And I’m hearing so much from you. What I’ve really taken away is the value of compassion and how you access that compassion, the spirit of collaboration.
[00:28:54] Jess O’Reilly: But I think that’s where a lot of relationship advice kind of falls short because it’s like, oh, you need to communicate, you need to collaborate. But what happens when you just can’t come to terms? And then you’ve got our clarification, your clarification of rights and agreements. There needs to be these.
[00:29:08] Jess O’Reilly: Additional layers. I think a lot of people might be thinking, oh, this is like a lot of work, but this is the biggest thing in your life. Your relationships determine the quality of your life, right? And I don’t mean just intimate relationships, but all sorts of relationships and totally worth the investment.
[00:29:21] Jess O’Reilly: I love the formulaic stuff. I like the writing down. I like the clear understanding, but I know not everybody likes things that way. So I’m sure you can take the information contained. in the book and kind of adjust it, you know, into the poetry or the art or the, whatever formula works for you. So thank you so much.
[00:29:37] Jess O’Reilly: I think this is really excellent. Hope people will check out Cultivating Connection, a practical guide for personal and relationship growth in ethical non monogamy. I’ll give you the last word, Sandra.
[00:29:46] Sander T. Jones: Thank you so much. And I just also wanted to say that concept of, of interpersonal power. That’s really what a lot of this boils down to because we’re often completely unaware.
[00:29:54] Sander T. Jones: of it existing, particularly in our most intimate relationships, but that’s where people feel [00:30:00] power is abused over them or they feel victimized by someone. So whether it’s applying to your business relationships, your family relationships, your intimate relationships, if we can all develop an awareness of interpersonal power and learn how to see it coming, step back from it instead of using it to our advantage, bring it out into the open and speak of it so the other person knows it’s being dismantled.
[00:30:20] Sander T. Jones: That can really help so much.
[00:30:21] Jess O’Reilly: That must be so interesting when you’re working with clients who are in power dynamic situations where they’ve created power dynamics.
[00:30:28] Sander T. Jones: Yes. It applies differently there because now you have to stick to the power exchanges that have been consented to freely.
[00:30:34] Jess O’Reilly: Another time. We have to have you back to talk about that.
[00:30:36] Jess O’Reilly: I would love to. Uh, excellent. So folks, make sure you’re checking out Sandra T. Jones’s work, cultivating connection, practical guide for personal and relationship growth and ethical non monogamy. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you folks for listening. If you want to learn.
[00:30:49] Jess O’Reilly: Some new skills. We’re going to set up that podcast promo again at happiercouples. com. Use code podcast to save on mindful sex on six steps to overcoming premature ejaculation, as well as the mind blowing oral courses, which are getting an update, right? Brandon.
[00:31:03] Brandon Ware: They are coming soon.
[00:31:04] Jess O’Reilly: All right. That’s on Brandon.
[00:31:05] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks so much.
[00:31:07] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.
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3 Sex & Relationship Lessons From “Lifestyle” Couples
8 sep 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
How Lifestyle Couples Keep Their Relationships Hot, Happy, and Connected
Couples in The Lifestyle — often referred to as swingers — practice a form of ethical non-monogamy that usually involves consensual sexual play with other singles and/or couples. Though swinging still gets its fair share of judgment, research and lived experience show that many couples find that it strengthens their emotional connection, deepens their communication skills, and supports ongoing erotic exploration.
In this quickie episode of the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast, Jess and Brandon dive into advice from three experienced Lifestyle couples who generously share their insights on how they keep their relationships strong — and their sex lives sizzling.
Curious about The Lifestyle?
If you’ve ever been curious about the Lifestyle — or if you’re just looking to bring some of that open, playful energy into your own monogamous relationship — their wisdom applies. Some of the themes we explore include:
• Why clear communication is the real aphrodisiac.
• How setting — and revisiting — boundaries creates more freedom, not less.
• What “success” looks like beyond just sex — think trust, self-awareness, and mutual growth.
• How embracing pleasure (without shame) fuels deeper connection.
Whether you’re Lifestyle-curious, monogamish, or simply committed to keeping your relationship vibrant, there’s something to learn from couples who choose intentional, consensual exploration.
Listen now to hear real-world advice from couples who know that passion doesn’t have to fade — if you’re willing to keep learning, laughing, and, yes, talking about everything.
Fuel your connection with a little extra pleasure — explore my go-to toys from Lovehoney. Be sure to use discount code DRJESSVIP to save (and Thank You! We appreciate your support).
If you have podcast questions, please submit them here. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
3 Sex & Relationship Lessons From “Lifestyle” Couples
Episode 333
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Dr. Jess, how are you feeling today?
[00:00:19] Jess O’Reilly: I’m feeling all right. I’m feeling good. Talk to me. Why is that? We have just disembarked the Desire Cruise, and I don’t know if this was maybe number six for us in terms of Desire Cruising, but we just came off a week in Greece with one stop in Turkey.
[00:00:33] Jess O’Reilly: It was a lot of fun, but it was pretty intense.
[00:00:34] Brandon Ware: Yeah, it was intense.
[00:00:36] Jess O’Reilly: Lots of socializing.
[00:00:38] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that’s an understatement. I always like to party. Oh my gosh. I can’t keep up. I don’t know. I gotta, I gotta tell you, I don’t know how they do it. They’re up at like seven in the morning and they party hard until like three in the morning.
[00:00:49] Jess O’Reilly: Is that, is that their schedule? I don’t know. I’m asleep long before
[00:00:52] Brandon Ware: that. I’m, I’m, I’m impressed.
[00:00:55] Jess O’Reilly: But it’s super friendly crowd. Oh yeah. Like it’s so much fun while you’re on, but then, you know, when you come off of something that’s so highly social, at least me. Oh, I feel like a total drop. I just need to be quiet for a bit.
[00:01:07] Jess O’Reilly: Need some time to chill. Yes. Now we are also on route to Atlanta for Sex Town South via Toronto. Very excited for this. So this is definitely a quickie episode because we just don’t have a lot of time. We’re stopping in Toronto overnight. So that I can feed my dad and see my mom and my stepdad. Check on my plants.
[00:01:26] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, drop off my cleats to my friend’s house because I’m gonna, I need her to carry them to a tournament for me in Montreal. But what for? What are you playing? We’re not talking about that right now. Okay, I play Ultimate and Brandon likes to make fun of it.
[00:01:39] Brandon Ware: Hope Adam’s listening right now. Adam Maurer.
[00:01:41] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my gosh.
[00:01:42] Brandon Ware: I feel like we’ve bonded over this.
[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: Brandon calls it Frisbee. If I call it Frisbee, people who play Ultimate are going to get mad at me, but it’s the least Ultimate. It’s Ultimate. Anyhow, we have a short amount of time, so we are going to get in to three lessons that I learned from lifestyle couples on the cruise.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Jess O’Reilly: Three lessons from swingers, basically. These couples are swingers now. Definitely not all the couples on the cruise are swingers or lifestylers. I want to say it’s about 50 50. Yeah, I would, I would say so. But everybody’s pretty open minded. There’s a lot of, you know, playfulness. A lot of flirtation. A lot of flirtation, but not, uh, I don’t know.
[00:02:18] Jess O’Reilly: It feels pretty low pressure to me.
[00:02:19] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, nobody’s overbearing. I mean, everyone’s there just to, honestly, just to party and have a good time.
[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it, yeah, it was really fun. Hey, before we go on, what was your highlight?
[00:02:28] Brandon Ware: Ooh, so much fun. I mean, I really enjoy the stops. I like to get off.
[00:02:34] Brandon Ware: We get off at the, at every port. So I enjoy, um, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I really enjoyed Mykonos. I thought the water was spectacular in Mykonos and very chill and relaxing day. Um, what else did I enjoy? I enjoyed, uh, Cavala. I enjoyed the meals. The food was, was incredible. So there’s so many highlight meals. And then, uh, you know, on board, uh, I really had a great time at the, the white party night.
[00:02:59] Brandon Ware: It was a fun night where everybody was partying hard out dancing. And the weather was fantastic. Like, oh my gosh, we got such a great week of weather on the boat. So smooth. Yeah, it was just fantastic.
[00:03:12] Jess O’Reilly: My highlight was definitely Mykonos because we just chilled for the day. We were kind of on the edge of a cliff overlooking the ocean.
[00:03:18] Jess O’Reilly: We’d walk down to the ocean, jump in, and it was so clear. And then I think the other was Kusadasi. We’d been to Kusadasi, Turkey in the past and visited Ephesus, which obviously is super fascinating to see such an ancient city and walk its, you know, roads with street lamps that you can’t, thousands of years ago, you think about them lighting up.
[00:03:36] Brandon Ware: Oh, incredible engineering from, you know, thousands of years ago was spectacular, but also in Kavala. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right. No, no, no. But I’m saying in Kavala, the other stop finding those local beaches was really cool.
[00:03:48] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. I thought that was awesome. Yeah. We stumbled upon some beaches were, I mean, they were actually there.
[00:03:53] Jess O’Reilly: Some of them were beaches, but some of them were rock like cliffs where you could swim. And there was one where only two people were there. [00:04:00] They showed us how to safely get in and not step on sea urchins. Yeah, that was really cool. Another highlight. The dog cafe in Cusadasi. What was the name of it? The Hand Coffee Shop.
[00:04:09] Brandon Ware: The Hand Coffee Shop in Cusadasi.
[00:04:11] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. We’ve been there before and there’s just dogs wandering around.
[00:04:14] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Three owners, three dogs with their three dogs. Always a great way to have a coffee.
[00:04:19] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that puts me in a good mood. Okay, so let’s talk about some of the messages, some of the important lessons and reminders that we got from folks who are in the lifestyle.
[00:04:29] Jess O’Reilly: And again, I get it. Not everybody’s in the lifestyle, but I think we definitely all have something to glean from hearing from people who have different. relationship arrangements than our own. Especially ethical non monogamy. And so, yeah, I’m just going to dive into it. So the first, and I posted about this on Instagram, get off the escalator.
[00:04:46] Jess O’Reilly: And I took a direct quote on each of these. So this is from a couple from England. They’re in their 40s, 43 and 46. I think she was the older one. So I think he was 43. She was 46 from England. This is what they said. What I mean is that one thing doesn’t have to lead to another. If you go to a party, it doesn’t mean you have to play.
[00:05:03] Jess O’Reilly: If you play one time, it doesn’t mean you have to do it again. You don’t always have to up the ante. And in fact, pulling back can be even more exciting and will sometimes be necessary for the relationship. I find people are often afraid to try something because they think their partner will just want more and more.
[00:05:19] Jess O’Reilly: But if you’re feeling that kind of pressure in your relationship, then I don’t think the lifestyle is for you.
[00:05:24] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I thought that was a really helpful piece of advice that they shared with the group. And. I think there’s this idea that every time you do something, you have to be able to up the ante, like you said, and do some, do it again or go bigger.
[00:05:34] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I hear people say that, like, if I do this for my partner, especially in cases where they’re like, Oh, I’m not really into this, but I could do it for my partner. I get that they’re into it and I’d love to be a part of it for them, but I often hear, well, my fear is that if I do this, then they’re going to want that.
[00:05:48] Jess O’Reilly: If I do that, then they’re going to want. Something even more and I love this idea in life that life isn’t an escalator It’s not just where we’re always ascending to something bigger or more dangerous or greater. We’re just [00:06:00] experiencing
[00:06:00] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I like you just said I think is applicable across the board and there’s always this idea that you’re progressing up But I also think that the couples that had these sort of conversations are the ones who seem a lot happier Like does it is it not the case where you know, they’re having these conversations when they’re not in the heat of the moment They’re They’re decompressing, they’re dissecting, they’re discussing these experiences after the fact.
[00:06:22] Brandon Ware: And it’s those discussions that I feel when these These incredible pieces of advice and insight come out. And that’s what I really found interesting and helpful.
[00:06:30] Jess O’Reilly: Well, that actually leads, and I know not on purpose because I never, I know you never read the notes, but that leads into another piece here, which is bring up the bad when things are good, so many people avoid having serious conversations because.
[00:06:44] Jess O’Reilly: When things are good, you don’t want to ruin it by bringing up something intense. Right. But then when you wait until you’re really upset to talk about that intense thing, you’re not going to be kind of at your best in terms of communicating or emotionally processing or slowing down and taking a beat.
[00:06:57] Jess O’Reilly: So this is what these newlyweds, so these, these folks are in their fifties. So she was 55, he was 59 and they’re from Germany and they just got married. This is what they said. Yeah. Don’t wait until you run into trouble. Instead, talk about the hypotheticals. We learned early on that it’s easier to deal with the hard stuff when you’re not already upset about those same issues.
[00:07:18] Jess O’Reilly: So bring up the difficult stuff, jealousy, insecurity, changing your mind. So they’re talking about swinging here when things are already going smoothly so that you’ll have a better idea of how your partner feels and what they need. If and when the issues actually arise and I love this the talking about, okay, so what if this were to happen?
[00:07:37] Jess O’Reilly: What if that were to happen? What if I freaked out because this does happen in life people pull back they get upset They change their mind. They freak out. It’s actually not the end of the world. And so this applies across the board We always talk about this if you’re going to talk about intense topics difficult topics contentious issues Bring it up when you’re in a good place, make the time for it.
[00:07:56] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe set a time limit on it. Like you don’t want it to get away from you, but [00:08:00] this is really what I do in my work, right? I’m bringing people conversations, conversation tools and starters so that they can actually talk about things before the issues arrive. Arise. It’s like fire prevention.
[00:08:11] Brandon Ware: And I, and I love Germans because they’re always pushing the boundaries.
[00:08:14] Jess O’Reilly: They are. Yeah.
[00:08:15] Brandon Ware: No, for real. I’m serious.
[00:08:16] Jess O’Reilly: These ones have the best outfits.
[00:08:17] Brandon Ware: If you , they have the best. Oh, I do.
[00:08:19] Jess O’Reilly: And this actually leads really nicely into the third piece of advice, which has to do with mistakes. This is to me, One of the most important pieces in relationships when it comes to sex, when it comes to pushing your comfort zone, when it comes to trying new things, not just non monogamy, but just overall embrace mistakes.
[00:08:38] Jess O’Reilly: So this is a younger couple from the States, 38 and 46. They have three kids and they said, if something goes awry, it’s okay. Everyone is always asking, what if? So what if something goes wrong? What if an experience goes sideways? That’s life, whether you’re monogamous or not, don’t let the fear alone hold you back.
[00:08:59] Jess O’Reilly: And they say, imagine we did this with having kids, with moving cities, with taking a new job. There is too much focus on making things perfect and it’s not realistic for vanilla couples. So why do we put pressure on ourselves in the lifestyle? If you have the foundation of loving, happy relationships, you probably feel even closer when you go through the so called mistakes together.
[00:09:18] Jess O’Reilly: And this is something I hear so much. from couples that they’re afraid that if they push their boundary, if they go to a sex club, if they try a new act, if they engage in something that makes them nervous, that it could go wrong. And I’m like, okay, so it might go wrong, but what does that mean? What does it mean?
[00:09:35] Jess O’Reilly: Does it mean that you hate yourself, that you hate your partner, that your relationship falls apart? No. Hopefully you’re not even having these conversations unless you already have the foundation of trust and love and understanding and a willingness to work through things. So, you know, in life things go wrong, right?
[00:09:51] Jess O’Reilly: We know we make mistakes. We know that we’re like, Oh my God, I can’t believe I said that. I can’t believe I did that. I can’t believe I responded that way. But with sex, we treat it like it’s so [00:10:00] special. Like we need to like put up the bowling alley bumpers to make sure everything goes perfectly. When the worst case scenario is not nearly as bad as you’re probably making it out to be in your mind.
[00:10:10] Brandon Ware: You know, we watched a show the other day and I really liked it. We watched Tet Lasso and one of the last episodes they said something. They said, perfection sucks. Perfection is boring and
[00:10:20] Jess O’Reilly: beard,
[00:10:21] Brandon Ware: beard,
[00:10:22] Jess O’Reilly: beard said it,
[00:10:23] Brandon Ware: but it was just the idea that it’s okay to screw up. It’s okay to, to, for things to go wrong.
[00:10:30] Brandon Ware: And, and I really, it resonated with me and I never thought about it from the perspective of perfection sucks. The idea of trying to be perfect all the time is exhausting. And like, I know how draining it can be. So why am I so afraid to mess up? And it’s going to happen, man. And just embrace it and move forward.
[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And I get, obviously, I mean, the flip side of that is in relationships, we have the inclination to protect what we have, right? So if we’ve got this good relationship, we’re afraid that if we go and try something or do something differently or engage, for example, in non monog, ethical non monogamy, that it’s going to ruin the relationship.
[00:11:04] Jess O’Reilly: But I would challenge you to think about why do you think that this one specific act is going to ruin things? Like, why do we think that it’s that thing? But I get it. And it actually, all of these points, even though they’re from three different couples, Tie together. It has to do with, for example, the perception of an escalator, right?
[00:11:19] Jess O’Reilly: That, Oh, if we do this, that’s eventually going to get boring. And we’re going to have to up the ante that we don’t want to have these difficult conversations when things are going well, but I think the, this last one is the most important to me around embracing mistakes, like being okay with the fact that things don’t have to go perfectly.
[00:11:35] Jess O’Reilly: You can have bad sex. You can have a bad experience. You can have a fight, right? Like we see this all the time where couples engage in experiences monogamous or not. That don’t work out and they still come out the other side, either exactly as they were or even better.
[00:11:49] Brandon Ware: Well, I think about the idea of screwing up and I guess I’m also thinking about things from the perspective of a relationship where you have that solid foundation to begin with so that when you do screw up, you know, that it wasn’t intended to hurt the other [00:12:00] person.
[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: You know, that it was. Um, you know, you can kind of, I don’t want to say laugh it off, but you can move forward and understand, okay, that didn’t work. Let let’s try it again, or let’s try something different, or let’s try a different, you know, approach on this, or maybe we don’t try it again. That was something we did and we didn’t enjoy it.
[00:12:15] Jess O’Reilly: Right. There’s always kind of pulling back, taking a left hand turn, taking a right, doing a U turn, whatever it is that works for you. So when I look at actually these, these perspectives or these insights, I think it’s. They really kind of line up for me as reasons why people won’t try new things. So maybe it’s more like hurdles, these notions or these, I don’t want to say limiting beliefs, these, these, um, thoughts that hold us back from trying something new.
[00:12:39] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. All great, great insight though. And these were just a few of the many that I heard kind of come across your plate, you know, during these conversations that, that you were having.
[00:12:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. And I want to say also that you don’t have to do everything right. I think that these insights don’t apply.
[00:12:56] Jess O’Reilly: If you don’t have that foundation to which we referred if you have a partner who’s pressuring you, right? So I would never want a partner who wants something and the other partner doesn’t to take it and say oh no No, they said this like it says it doesn’t matter Well, listen, if someone’s not into something like they genuinely are not into it.
[00:13:11] Jess O’Reilly: It doesn’t align with their values It doesn’t align with their identity. They just simply feel so uncomfortable that it would be More distressful than pleasurable. However you define that. That means that maybe that thing just isn’t for you and you don’t have to do everything.
[00:13:24] Brandon Ware: Well, also, and you talked about that a little bit, just the idea of talking about something before you’re in that situation, it’s like, do I want to do that?
[00:13:32] Brandon Ware: Well, why don’t we have a conversation about it before we do it? And I can tell you how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, what I’m afraid of, what I’m excited for, and then from there, maybe I want to proceed with it. And you know what, maybe I don’t, and I’m just really happy that we had this conversation. And now you know exactly how I feel.
[00:13:48] Brandon Ware: And, and, and, and again, it just, it strengthens the foundation.
[00:13:51] Jess O’Reilly: And don’t you want a partner who, if you decide to pull back or you say, you know what, I’m not feeling cool with this. It’s like, yeah, absolutely. Like I want, I want to support you. I want to take care [00:14:00] of you. I’m not going to make you feel guilty.
[00:14:01] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not going to put pressure on you. And so it really boils down to having that foundation of a happy, healthy. the loving, caring relationship where you want the best for one another. Because if you don’t have those things to begin with, there’s like no tool, no tip. These three insights may not even apply.
[00:14:15] Jess O’Reilly: Couldn’t agree more. Okay. We gotta go. We are off to Sex Town South, which is the coolest sex conference. So much fun in Atlanta. If you’ve never been look at it for next year, cause you’re probably too late for this year.
[00:14:28] Brandon Ware: Oh, that’s is it? Yes. It’s next year, but I’m sorry, but they’re also doing sex down south in Jamaica as well.
[00:14:33] Jess O’Reilly: Aren’t they? Hedonism in June. I have to get a promo code for that. Cause it’s just very preliminary, but it’s really growing. Yeah, I think it’s June 1st to June 6th or 7th down in Henanism with Sex Down South. The coolest, most fun group of people. For me personally, just my people. Really looking forward to it.
[00:14:49] Jess O’Reilly: And uh, I know that this has been a short one, but the good news is at Sex Down South there are so many brilliant minds, so we’re lining up a bunch of podcast interviews with some really, really brilliant folks. And uh, you’re, I’m gonna love the content. So you don’t have to just listen to our voices. I miss, I miss those interviews.
[00:15:05] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re going to let you go. But before you go, we have a promo from womanizer. com. So womanizer, you know, their technology, Pleasure Air, their sex toy advent calendar by Womanizer and Love Honey. is super discounted. It says 481 euros, but it’s on sale for 180 euros. And I don’t know what it is in us, but I know that the euro and the us aren’t too far off.
[00:15:27] Jess O’Reilly: Sorry for the Canadians because our dollar sucks, but it’s a ton, a ton of value. And it always sells out because last year, I guess the influencers put it on tick talk and it was within a matter of hours, it was sold out even though it’s for the holidays. So it includes. So many products. Okay. So the womanizer classic to clit stimulator, a mini massage wand, penis ring, a body massager, another penis ring, a textured stroker, anal beads, ankle restraints, wrist restraints, sandalwood scented candle, a card game dice, mini paddle mint, mint, orgasm bomb, vanilla massage oil.
[00:15:59] Jess O’Reilly: And much more, [00:16:00] I can’t read it all. There’s a crystal butt plug as well. And there’s a G spot massager and a G spot dildo. There’s a whole bunch of stuff. If you go to womanizer. com, it’s in the sales section. And I have a code, right? Uh, Dr. Jess. Just Dr. Jess. D R J E S S will get you a few extra dollars off.
[00:16:15] Jess O’Reilly: Womanizer. com, as I said, it usually sells out. And I guess it’s really early. It’s not quite the holidays and they’re already launching the advent calendar because hopefully they ordered more, but go check it out. womanizer.com.
[00:16:25] Brandon Ware: I was just gonna say, that was the one that that sold out completely last
[00:16:28] Brandon Ware: year.
[00:16:28] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it was gone. Yeah, because they ticky talkers. Amazing. . Bye folks.
[00:16:35] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to The Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Top Relationship Tips From Happier Couples: 8 Secrets To Success
31 aug 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Happy couples from across the globe share their best advice for richer relationships. From the relational to the emotional to the sexual, the happiest couples – of all ages weigh in on what makes their relationships thrive.
This episode is brought to you by Desire Cruises – a unique experience for adventurous couples! Join us as we cruise to the Greek Isles in August and the South of France next Spring 2024.
If you have podcast questions, please submit them here. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Top Relationship Tips From Happier Couples: 8 Secrets To Success
Episode 332
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight.
[00:00:13] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. And today we are about to head out on the desire cruise.
[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: That’s right. We’re hitting the Greek isles. We’re hitting Turkey. You’re going to make a cruise sound.
[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: No, I’m, I’m so much more mature than that.
[00:00:28] Brandon Ware: Don’t you know me better?
[00:00:29] Jess O’Reilly: I can see you. Yeah. Yeah. Why does your boat sound like a donkey?
[00:00:34] Brandon Ware: I don’t know. It just does.
[00:00:35] Jess O’Reilly: If I heard that sound, I’m not getting on the boat.
[00:00:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah. Okay.
[00:00:37] Jess O’Reilly: So, pretty excited. This is, I don’t know. Is this our sixth Desire Cruise?
[00:00:41] Brandon Ware: I believe that it is.
[00:00:42] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve been on pretty much all of them except the ones over New Year’s because that’s our week off.
[00:00:47] Jess O’Reilly: And every time we’re on board, I’m collecting information. Not necessarily… data, but people’s insights and experiences because it’s just such a broad range of guests here. So there are around 700 people on board. There are 44 countries represented. I don’t have the breakdown of this specific cruise, but from the last one, a few months ago, from that, I know that there were of the 700, around 300 Americans, 50 Canadians, 57 Mexicans.
[00:01:16] Jess O’Reilly: Handful from India, 16 Brazilians, another handful of Colombians, around a hundred from Europe. When I kind of look, okay, that’s the UK. They’ve exited. I did.
[00:01:29] Brandon Ware: I also did the German though, or maybe it was Austrian.
[00:01:31] Jess O’Reilly: Actually UK is a big contingent. I don’t know why I didn’t write them down, but there’s a good number from the UK.
[00:01:36] Jess O’Reilly: Folks from New Zealand, Singapore, South Africa, Taiwan, a nice contingent from. Central and South America. So I met Chileans, Costa Ricans, Ecuadorians, Venezuelans, a handful from Lebanon. I met a couple from Korea. And so, and there’s, there’s kind of a broad age range, right there. I think there might be a couple who are quite young in their twenties, but just like a handful of, let’s be [00:02:00] honest, women.
[00:02:00] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. I don’t think there’s any guys in their twenties, then a handful in their thirties, many in their forties. And then a bunch in their fifties and beyond. And so for me, there’s just so much learning here because people hail from all over the world. They come on this cruise for so many different reasons.
[00:02:16] Jess O’Reilly: You know, I’ve spoken about this before that yes, it’s clothing optional in certain areas. Yes, it’s erotic themed. Yes, there are very interactive workshops and there’s even a playroom should you decide to partake as a couple. And that doesn’t mean that everybody’s in an open or consensually non monogamous relationship.
[00:02:36] Jess O’Reilly: It doesn’t mean that everyone’s swingers. I would say it’s in the 50 50 range, but I think there are more people who are joining us who aren’t in the quote unquote lifestyle.
[00:02:46] Brandon Ware: I think that there’s an expectation that you walk in and people are swinging naked from a chandelier.
[00:02:51] Jess O’Reilly: And in fact, I am the only one swinging naked from the chandelier.
[00:02:54] Jess O’Reilly: Only because none of them can climb like I can. My greatest strength is I’m part monkey. That’s your super skill? I can pick up anything with my toes.
[00:03:04] Brandon Ware: Just as long as you don’t touch them. That’s all. That’s fine.
[00:03:06] Jess O’Reilly: Don’t touch my toes. Yeah. Okay. All right. So we’ve been chatting with couples over the years and I always keep track.
[00:03:12] Jess O’Reilly: You probably see, I post on Instagram sometimes, and I wanted to go through some of the top lessons and tips along with action items from the couples that we meet along the way. And I have a very deep Excel spreadsheet, actually, it’s a Google worksheet of all of these tips. So we’re just going to go through eight of them today that kind of stood out for me and maybe are a bit relevant to us why, why I’m drawn to them.
[00:03:36] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, I think all of these tips that we, that you’ve collected over the years, all this information is super valuable. And I, I find that we do pull, pull from it at times, different times, different scenarios, and just pulling the information.
[00:03:46] Jess O’Reilly: For sure. I definitely pull more from the people I meet and the people I hear from than I ever do from just studies or research.
[00:03:53] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, there’s, there’s definitely something there. And the other day I was at a football game, football, and one of the, one [00:04:00] of the guys there asked, you know, what is the key to a happy relationship? And of course, when you’re put on the spot, you want to answer. And there are things that come to my mind to kind of top the list for happy relationships.
[00:04:11] Jess O’Reilly: But it’s just, it’s like a recipe. You need so many different parts, right? You can’t just have strong communication. You can’t just have, you know, a hot sex life. You can’t just have forgiveness and fun. You have to have so many moving pieces. And of course, love, love at the core of, of all of it. So these are specific tips and I’m going to try and pull out what I see as the actions we can all take to actually put these into practice.
[00:04:35] Jess O’Reilly: So here we go. Number one. And I remember. The guy who said this to me, and I may have even brought this up in the past, but I remember where I was sitting. I remember the red wine I was drinking when this guest shared the fact that they really overhauled their lives to live intentionally, not habitually.
[00:04:53] Brandon Ware: Hmm. What if you love? Habitual exercises.
[00:04:57] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I think the point is not to do things out of habit alone, for sure. Create habits if they’re useful to you, but really identify what matters to you and make more time and space to prioritize those things. And you and I are at this pivotal point, I think in our lives, going through some really major transitions having to do with.
[00:05:17] Jess O’Reilly: The biggest part of our life, right? Where we live and how we live. And I can’t say too much more because I truthfully need to talk to my parents about a few things before I go announcing to everyone else before we make these changes. But these changes that we’re looking to make, or that we’re kind of halfway through making by accident, maybe not as intentional as we could have been, but now we’re getting intentional.
[00:05:35] Jess O’Reilly: They are rooted. In this lesson to live intentionally, not habitually, I, you know, I think we were going through the motions for a while there and not that we weren’t loving life and having a great time, but we had a life changing conversation with a friend of ours. And I’m sure we’ve talked about this as well, Jackson in a park in July of 2020.
[00:05:54] Jess O’Reilly: And it changed the, I think the trajectory of our lives and it’s changed. All of our [00:06:00] relationships around us, even if it hasn’t actually, I can’t say it hasn’t changed ours because it has changed ours. I think for the better. And I think we’re being a lot more intentional now.
[00:06:08] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I don’t think at the time I would have assumed that, or I would have thought that I was being intentional with my, my thought processes, but there was a couple of things that I remember.
[00:06:15] Brandon Ware: Number one, that the conversation was, it forced me to be reflective. And then number two, for me, I had. Time to think about these things. And I think that that was something that really resonated where it was like, okay, I had this great conversation that got me excited and introspective. And then I had time after to really reflect on it, which under normal circumstances, I don’t like, I feel like I don’t have time.
[00:06:38] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I think that’s one of the lessons we can all draw out of the pandemic is that we all said that, Oh, we had time to do this and that for better or for worse. And when it was for the better, I always ask couples, well, what’s the lesson you take away from that? And they’re like, Oh, after the pandemic, we need to continue to make time.
[00:06:53] Jess O’Reilly: And so I know there’s, you know, very data in terms of whether or not relationships were richer or more challenging during the pandemic in terms of intimate. Family relationships and partner relationships. But what I heard from my clientele, because my clientele pretty much 95% of them own or run businesses.
[00:07:10] Jess O’Reilly: You’ve got one partner who is often either away at work or on the road. It was the first time they were at home together for long periods of time without distractions and without excuses. And overall, and it’s not a hundred percent across the board, but actually I think it was in the 70th percentile range.
[00:07:27] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I was lucky. I was doing zoom events so we could ask people anonymously how they were feeling in their relationships. And around 70% were reporting that they felt stronger than ever. And when we dug into the why it really was around, well, we’re making more time, not only time for each other, but time for ourselves, time to be alone and also time to just observe one another and, and appreciate.
[00:07:47] Jess O’Reilly: everything that the partner does to keep that household, that family, that relationship running. So to go back to living intentionally as opposed to habitually, I think we need to make time for that for sure. But I [00:08:00] also think it’s sometimes easier said than done for those of us who may be inclined, for example, for me to do what our families want us to do, or our parents want us to do, or what our sociocultural roles dictate to some degree.
[00:08:12] Jess O’Reilly: And. I’m sure, you know, if you don’t know me, you’re probably thinking, well, you’re a sexologist, so you can’t possibly be following the traditional path, but that’s not true in the way I live with my family. And so I really, I often don’t even know what I want. I often just do what is going to make other people happy or upset them the least, and it’s something I’m working on.
[00:08:31] Jess O’Reilly: With my amazing therapist, shout out to Carla, to really even identify what it is I want. So how do you even get intentional if you’ve never made, I guess, the habit, the effort, or had the permission to ask yourself what you want? How can I be intentional if I’m just trying to do what I’m supposed to do?
[00:08:45] Jess O’Reilly: So what I take away from this message from this This guy who shared it, which really belongs in a t shirt, I think, is that it can be really helpful to sit down and break down your day, your month, your year, and ask yourself, what do I want to be doing? And what’s on my list that I don’t want to be doing?
[00:09:00] Jess O’Reilly: And you just did this with me the other day, we were talking about our day and you’re like, do you want to be doing any of these things? And my answer was no to so many of those things. And now some of those things you can’t change, right? You have some commitments you have to follow through on. You can’t just, most people can’t just quit their jobs or, you know, leave their kids at home alone.
[00:09:16] Jess O’Reilly: But what I did was go through that list and say, okay, so what can I change? What’s holding me back from changing these things too, right? Like for me, it’s. My struggle to say no, it’s the fear of disappointing. It’s the fear of anybody, even a stranger in a far off land being upset at me. So I went through and I’ve needed to solicit help to live intentionally.
[00:09:34] Jess O’Reilly: Like some I’ve had you helping me out. I will hand stuff off to staff where I know they’ll be able to say no more effectively than I will. So what can you change to be more intentional? If you look at your day, your month. And your year and what can’t you change, right? There’s some things we can’t change.
[00:09:49] Jess O’Reilly: So how can we respond to maybe reduce what we see as a burden or as a stress? And we didn’t, we just went through our day, but I think it would be kind of cool for us to look ahead at the next month or [00:10:00] even just till the end of the year for us. I know everybody’s schedules are a little bit different, but I would love to look through and say, you know, what do I really want to do?
[00:10:06] Jess O’Reilly: Cause I’m already thinking of something. In October, where we have to kind of rearrange our schedules a little bit. And it’s not around what I want. So we need to sit down and talk about that.
[00:10:16] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, like you said, there are things that you’re not going to be able to change, but focus on things that I can change in my life.
[00:10:21] Brandon Ware: And then when I start thinking about those, it’s like, yeah, just being comfortable, also disappointing others, saying no, like setting, I’m not going to, you know, a personal boundary where it’s like. I’m choosing not to do this and disappointing somebody for not doing it. But Hey, that speaks to what you said about living in with, with intention.
[00:10:40] Brandon Ware: So
[00:10:40] Jess O’Reilly: that’s hard for people pleasers.
[00:10:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that’s really hard. I’m, you know, right now thinking about it is makes it like it can be difficult.
[00:10:47] Jess O’Reilly: It’s also hard. I think when you have habits. That you depend on or these habits kind of reduce anxiety around hot thought issues. I know that’s a much bigger topic to get into.
[00:10:57] Jess O’Reilly: And of course, like where you are in life and the different privileges you have really affect what you can and can’t change because we have different levels of responsibility. But I love that live intentionally, not habitually. Thank you for that one. Next, we have a light one, an easy one, and this. This is something that comes up with so many couples, happy couples.
[00:11:15] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, these couples are making the time to spend a week together in an environment that is exciting. That can be titillating. They can be uncomfortable. That is all new. That can be scary. You know, I want to say the word titillate again. Oh, you like to, yes, yes, there might be. I did. I thank you. Thank you for that.
[00:11:31] Jess O’Reilly: There you go. But what they say is play, prioritize fun and. Laugh and create harmless secrets. So harmless secrets was one that kept coming up. Uh, and this comes from a couple who shared their, they didn’t actually share their album, but they shared the existence of an album called boobs around the world.
[00:11:50] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s a photo album on his phone. And he takes pics of her flashing him on their travels in kind of like dangerous places where you’re not [00:12:00] flashing other people, although it’s just a breast. Brandon has breasts, I have breasts, she has breasts. And then they kind of go back them back to those photos to recall fond and saucy memories when they’re back home in their daily routine, because when you make the time and you have the privilege to go on vacation, of course, it’s easy to like enjoy each other’s company or easier, not always easy and have more sex and be more excited.
[00:12:20] Jess O’Reilly: And then you go back home to your routine. And it’s like, you never even skipped a beat.
[00:12:25] Brandon Ware: And they were also saying that they were doing them in places where it was risky, but they weren’t doing it, um, you know, without in like a public environment, it was like they were doing it in the restaurant of a Michelin starred, uh, sorry, in the bathroom of a Michelin starred restaurant or something like that.
[00:12:38] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And like down a lane, a secret lane way. So they’re having fun with it. And it’s something secretive and that, that makes sense to me. So I, I remember reading research. I don’t have the actual study, but on the fact that inside jokes can help you to feel connected to a partner or a friend, and I think, you know, we have a lot of those and I’ve noticed, you want to know, I was thinking about how we laugh together so much.
[00:12:58] Jess O’Reilly: Um, you’ve been doing your little T Rex that makes me laugh. Also known as the B Rex. The B Rex. Yeah. I mean, we’re such losers. Or if we had kids, they’d hate us, but I also noticed we’ve been laughing more. Like joking around a little bit more in other places, like in bed a little bit.
[00:13:12] Brandon Ware: Oh, have we? I didn’t even know.
[00:13:14] Brandon Ware: I mean, I’m super funny. So, you know, it’s hard for me to know when I’m not being funny because I’m always funny.
[00:13:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I just think that’s an important reminder to. And Brandon speaking, no, just kidding, to really think about how can we inject more play and how can we lighten the mood? Because I know in our, in our circumstance, like we have so much to have fun with so much to be thankful for.
[00:13:36] Jess O’Reilly: And sometimes it’s just so easy to get caught up in, in burden and in things that are heavy. So if you’re feeling like you’re caught under something heavy, what can you do to lift yourself out? And what can you do to lift, uh, you know, a loved one out, a partner out as well. And, um, yeah, so have fun, play and have those like secret saucy things.
[00:13:53] Jess O’Reilly: Do we have anything secret and saucy? We have literally no secrets left. We share [00:14:00] way too much.
[00:14:00] Brandon Ware: I mean, I think that we’re always kind of challenging and testing each other with. You know, saucy, you’re going to build on that saucy ideas, fantasies, things like that. But I don’t think that we necessarily have any activities that we…
[00:14:14] Jess O’Reilly: I’m going to make a butts around the world album on this, on this cruise. Butts in Greece. Okay. Number three, I really appreciated this piece of advice. And this was to plan regularly for your relationship. So you can’t control everything. But take some time to ask your partner what they want out of the next year or two.
[00:14:32] Jess O’Reilly: A year or two sounds really far right now for me. I think time has changed. But, um, they said do what you can to support them and make it happen. And actually I think this goes really hand in hand with living intentionally. Right. As opposed to habitually. And I love this cause I have an easy exercise because this is how I open some of my couple’s workshops with a relationship inventory and a preliminary relationship plan.
[00:14:55] Jess O’Reilly: The inventory, basically, you know, it’s a worksheet that asks what your partner is doing well in this relationship, like what you appreciate about them, what you’re doing well together and what your strengths are as a couple. So I like to kind of start with that foundation of we’ve got this good stuff going.
[00:15:10] Jess O’Reilly: And then the preliminary plan, which oftentimes we revisit at the end of the two day session so that we can, you know, make adjustments or make additions, the preliminary relationship plan asks, what do you want to keep doing that you’re already doing? And how do we make sure we keep that going? What do you want more of in your relationship?
[00:15:28] Jess O’Reilly: What can you do to get more of this thing? And what can you ask of your partner? So actually you and I could go through and give this one a try on a, on a future podcast, but I like the idea of planning and it doesn’t have to be my way. It doesn’t have to be looking at a year or two, but even just to ask, like, what do you want for this week?
[00:15:46] Jess O’Reilly: What do you want to get out of this week? And especially, you know, for many of us, and I know everyone’s on different schedules if you have kids, but for many of us, it’s kind of that last week of summer. Before everything turns and the, you know, the wild schedules [00:16:00] return. So I love that one to plan. Number four, get naked when you can.
[00:16:03] Jess O’Reilly: And they say it feels so good to just be in your skin. No judgment, no labels, no pressure. All of these beginnings are verbatim. And of course this makes sense. We have all these benefits of nudity when they study nudism, you know, being more present, feeling better in your body, having more positive body image, fostering more genuine.
[00:16:24] Jess O’Reilly: Connections, uh, sensuality in your skin. And I don’t mean that in a sexual or erotic way, just being more connected to your body. And so…
[00:16:31] Brandon Ware: Have you noticed that I’ve been walking around naked a little more frequently? You have! have. I’m just hanging out.
[00:16:36] Jess O’Reilly: I thought that was for me.
[00:16:40] Brandon Ware: That’s for me.
[00:16:41] Jess O’Reilly: I thought it was because we’re finally empty nesters, honestly.
[00:16:43] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that’s a part of it for sure. But I will say it does feel good. Breeze between my knees, yo.
[00:16:48] Jess O’Reilly: You like that?
[00:16:49] Brandon Ware: Oh yeah. Feels so good.
[00:16:50] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s the challenge. Walk around naked for five minutes. Sit and work naked, cook naked, try a naked activity.
[00:16:57] Brandon Ware: Oils, you know, burning.
[00:16:59] Jess O’Reilly: You, you don’t cook.
[00:17:00] Brandon Ware: I’m just saying.
[00:17:01] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:17:01] Brandon Ware: I wouldn’t want that to happen.
[00:17:03] Jess O’Reilly: No, true, true, true. You can make a salad or your specialty. You could pour a bowl of cereal, make it.
[00:17:09] Brandon Ware: I could, I will take on that challenge. I’ll live intentionally.
[00:17:13] Jess O’Reilly: Number five, put the same effort you put into planning vacations. Outfits, kids schedules, and football pools into your relationships.
[00:17:23] Jess O’Reilly: Plan, make time, be flexible, make changes, celebrate everything because life is short. That’s a quote as well. Heck yeah, I love this. Uh, my most popular program is my marriage as a business program. And I think I have a podcast on the topic, but I think it might just be in like a corporate drive, but I’ll see if I can release it as well, or even just record a version of it.
[00:17:44] Jess O’Reilly: But the gist is basically. Use your planning, leadership, collaborative, team building, strategic skills you’ve learned from work and apply them to your relationship. Not the exact same way. Okay. With nuance, because it’s a different type of. Organism than a [00:18:00] business. But you know, think about all the things we do in business.
[00:18:02] Jess O’Reilly: Like don’t just invest in the startup phase of a relationship, AKA the wedding. Make some sort of a plan, which we just spoke about. Be formal about the way you collaborate and check in. Give feedback, give praise, be flexible. I just posted about this on Instagram, adapt to the circumstances. If you do not do those things in business, you’re done.
[00:18:23] Brandon Ware: I was waiting for be flexible to be one of your points. And if it wasn’t I was going to say that’s for me, something that I think we’ve discussed before, but like the importance of being flexible, at least in our relationship, I find it very, very helpful. I think I used to be very rigid in certain aspects.
[00:18:39] Brandon Ware: And then I started questioning, why am I being so rigid? Like, what is it about this routine or this thing that I must do? And when I couldn’t come up with a logical answer, I was like. Then I should maybe be more receptive to the idea and being more receptive to the idea has opened up so many new opportunities, so much more fun.
[00:18:58] Brandon Ware: Um, it’s just, it, it’s a, for me, it’s a nicer way to live.
[00:19:01] Jess O’Reilly: You know, it’s interesting because routine has come up a couple of times in this conversation. And you’re somebody who enjoys routine. And I’m someone who actually, I feel allergic to routine and neither of those is right or wrong. We have to figure out what works for each of us.
[00:19:14] Jess O’Reilly: And then if you’re going to live together, you hopefully find pleasure. In the other person’s needs or even idiosyncrasies, I think you probably have to deal with in my case, but I think that it’s always about finding that balance where there isn’t the judgment. And I will admit at times when you were leaning into routine or asking for more routine because I was interrupting it, I admit, like I would be irritated and maybe judgmental.
[00:19:39] Jess O’Reilly: And I had to kind of stop myself and be, and remember that, listen. The way my brain is wired is different than the way your brain is wired. Very, and I mean that literally, that’s just not, I got this special brain going on over here. And if you did things the way I did them, it would be a disaster and vice versa.
[00:19:56] Jess O’Reilly: Like I would not be able to do the things you do. And I’m sure you [00:20:00] wouldn’t want to do the things I do. So yeah, that flexibility is, is so, so important. So I love the idea of, you know what, if you have the energy to put into vacations, into what you wear, into your kids, you know, taking them to football or soccer, if you have time to work on a sports pool, if you, you can make time for the relationship and you can put the effort in and yeah, I’ll see if I can release that marriage as a business.
[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: Podcast. I can’t remember if it was supposed to be just private or not, but I love it. I, and I, the challenge here, cause I want to kind of give you an action item for each of these tips is to think about something that you’re really good at at work that maybe you don’t. Utilize or tap into or excel at in the relationship.
[00:20:38] Jess O’Reilly: I’m thinking of mine. I mean, I know some of mine like immediately, like for example, the patients that I extend to people I work with, I don’t necessarily always extend to you, like we ran into an issue the other day where you had to sort of call me out and I find this really helpful because again, my, most of the clients I’m working with are running businesses.
[00:21:00] Jess O’Reilly: That they’re like, Oh yeah, I can definitely apply that because it’s, it’s a model that you’re used to in an environment that you already thrive. So if you feel like you’re thriving in business, but not thriving in the home, if you can take a skill set or an approach or a system that works in a comfortable space, you can bring it into a space that feels perhaps at this time more challenging.
[00:21:18] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, I agree. Uh, don’t ask me what skills I’m bringing in, but I’ll think about it.
[00:21:23] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Yeah. And for everyone, yeah. Think about something you’re really good at outside their relationship and how your relationship might benefit from cultivating that. Or bringing it in there. Okay, this is a recent one from a couple we just spoke to, because we did some pre cruise programming.
[00:21:35] Jess O’Reilly: And he says, Every single time you feel conflict or an argument coming on, stop and ask yourself, Is it worth it? Ask yourself if pushing back against this person is really necessary, or can you just let it go or laugh it off? And then he adds, When I look at my wife, I just melt. So it’s no surprise conflicts are fewer and far between.
[00:21:56] Jess O’Reilly: And even when we argue, we’re able to laugh together. So. I love [00:22:00] this. I’m thinking I should get a sticky note and just write, is it worth it? At certain times when I know I’m more testy.
[00:22:07] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, it’s also hard to constantly be thinking like, is it worth it? Is it worth it? But I think it’s more of a, a bigger picture idea, right?
[00:22:16] Brandon Ware: Where, listen, you’re still, we’re still going to have arguments. We’re still going to get into heated conversations. But for me, it’s during that conversation. When I’m really starting to dig in or when I’m really getting, um, irritated or whatever, that’s when I need to start questioning, is it worth it? Or can I just ease up a little bit?
[00:22:33] Brandon Ware: Right. And that, that to me ties in with that. Is it really worth it? Because I think in a year, a month, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, is this conversation that I’m so hung up on. Is it going to be worth it?
[00:22:45] Jess O’Reilly: Oh yeah. I guess it’s like my 99 rule. Will I care about this when I’m 99 or can I just let this stupid issue go?
[00:22:50] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And it doesn’t mean that I need to capitulate to whatever it is you’re saying, but it’s like, do I need to hold on to whatever it is I’m so hung up on? Here and maybe be a little bit more, um, understanding of what you’re going through, or maybe listen a little bit more carefully to how you’re feeling or what you’re thinking and try to understand.
[00:23:10] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I think, um, I get hung up on principle. Yeah, I would say that you principle of the matter. And I could just let it go.
[00:23:19] Brandon Ware: Yeah. But again, it’s, this goes back to what I was saying. It’s like, okay, yeah, you could always do this or do that. But it’s just like, is this really worth what we’re, what we’re investing into it?
[00:23:28] Jess O’Reilly: Well, therapists will sometimes give you like a code word to when you’re in the middle of a conflict,
[00:23:33] Brandon Ware: Oklahoma.
[00:23:35] Jess O’Reilly: What’s Oklahoma from?
[00:23:36] Brandon Ware: Ted Lasso, man.
[00:23:37] Jess O’Reilly: What is it? What does he say?
[00:23:38] Brandon Ware: You have to give the. Nothing but the honest truth, whatever it is you’re feeling,
[00:23:42] Jess O’Reilly: right?
[00:23:43] Brandon Ware: So if somebody says Oklahoma and they call you out on it’s like well Do you really want to go to like do you want to go out for dinner tonight?
[00:23:48] Brandon Ware: And you’re like yes, and then the other person goes Oklahoma and you’re like no I don’t want to go I want to sit in bed and eat pizza and like lounge around to do nothing,
[00:23:56] Jess O’Reilly: Oklahoma
[00:23:57] Brandon Ware: But what’s the question?
[00:23:59] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know. How are you feeling [00:24:00] right now? Oklahoma.
[00:24:01] Brandon Ware: A little anxious. Oh. Yeah. I don’t know why.
[00:24:04] Brandon Ware: Maybe it’s because people are listening to this intimate conversation that we’re having, sharing what we’re thinking and feeling.
[00:24:10] Jess O’Reilly: I wonder too, if it’s because we’re physically uncomfortable, it’s like 63% humidity in here.
[00:24:16] Brandon Ware: Yeah. It’s, it’s legitimately 40 degrees.
[00:24:19] Jess O’Reilly: I’m wet.
[00:24:20] Brandon Ware: Like it’s, it’s, it’s very warm. Yes.
[00:24:22] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, 40 degrees by the way. That’s
[00:24:24] Brandon Ware: Celsius. Celsius, so yeah. So times two plus 30, so you know it’s a hundred and something.
[00:24:28] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s a hundred something.
[00:24:28] Brandon Ware: A hundred like eight.
[00:24:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. We can talk about that after. Okay, let’s get through these last few and then you and I can chat.
[00:24:34] Brandon Ware: Do you want me to bre it?
[00:24:35] Jess O’Reilly: No, no.
[00:24:37] Brandon Ware: Really take a photo of this.
[00:24:38] Jess O’Reilly: Brendan likes to put his hands on his chest like a T-Rex man against his nipples. Like he’s a T-Rex and his hands are so big they do look like a T-Rex.
[00:24:46] Brandon Ware: And then try to do things when you do that, like try to have a glass of water. I don’t know why , because it’s hilarious. It’s hilarious.
[00:24:52] Brandon Ware: Stop. It’s hilarious.
[00:24:54] Jess O’Reilly: Until you spill the water.
[00:24:55] Brandon Ware: It’s super funny.
[00:24:56] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Number seven. I appreciate this. This piece of advice. Don’t wait till you’re older. And this person says, live now. Don’t wait. Travel, play, get the kids a sitter because decades will fly by. And I wish we had really started living years ago.
[00:25:09] Jess O’Reilly: And this was a conversation actually around the lifestyle. So they had joined the lifestyle a lot later than they might have if they had taken the time and given themselves permission and not worried so much about what. Other people think, but I think this advice applies more broadly. So I was thinking, what is something that you’re waiting to do that you could do right now, or at least start right now, not in business, like in life, in relationships, turn on the air conditioning.
[00:25:36] Jess O’Reilly: No, that’s going to wreck our sound. No, really. Is there anything you think you’re waiting to do in life? I know we just took like a big plunge.
[00:25:45] Brandon Ware: It’s a big question. I feel like I need a few minutes to think about it, but, um. I wanted, before I answer this question, just also recognize that this, you know, living now and traveling and doing all these things also is something that certain people can do, right?
[00:25:59] Brandon Ware: And not everybody [00:26:00] can, but I think there’s, there’s even little things that you can be doing, like going for a hike, going for like just doing something. I think it’s just the idea of living now because, you know, tomorrow a month from now isn’t promised.
[00:26:10] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And I think so many of us are caught up in.
[00:26:13] Jess O’Reilly: You know, I think tying our identity and our self worth to productivity. So if we don’t do something, so if you don’t work on the house, if you don’t clean something, if you don’t build something, if you’re not making money, if you’re not building your business, if you’re not doing something for me, if you’re not running errands for my dad, you’re not worthy.
[00:26:29] Jess O’Reilly: Whereas you could also just sit and enjoy or do something. You like, like when I, when I think about what’s something you want to do that you’re holding off doing, I, my first thought goes to business. And that really reminds me that I got to refocus. So do I, and there is something that I want. That I haven’t asked for.
[00:26:48] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Shoot, Oklahoma. I’m not saying it now. I’ll give you your Oklahoma after, but I’m not super comfortable, but I’ll, I’ll share it with you later today.
[00:26:56] Brandon Ware: I just thought of something. And for me, it’s just taking a break. It’s stopping. Like if you ask me what I really want, I want to stop for three days, a week.
[00:27:06] Brandon Ware: And you know, not answer emails, not answer phone calls, not do anything.
[00:27:10] Jess O’Reilly: Have you, when’s the last time you went? 48 hours without answering emails,
[00:27:14] Brandon Ware: 48 hours. I can’t remember the last time 2006 probably when we got married. Yeah, I can’t, can’t, I don’t think there’s been a day and I’m not, it’s not a complaint.
[00:27:22] Brandon Ware: It’s just a statement of fact. I think since we got married, there hasn’t been a day where I haven’t answered an email or returned a phone call and that’s just the nature of my business. But it also,
[00:27:31] Jess O’Reilly: and the marriage thing was because we were away and there were no smart, were there smartphones in 2006?
[00:27:36] Brandon Ware: Yeah, there were, I don’t know, actually, I think there might’ve been cell phones and beepers. I don’t think there were smart, like smart phones.
[00:27:43] Jess O’Reilly: No. Cause I remember renting a cell phone when we got to the airport. So yeah, it was just a, Matt had nothing to do with the wedding. It’s just that you were off that week.
[00:27:51] Jess O’Reilly: I just couldn’t get ahold of me. And you haven’t ever done that since then. And then the world has changed so that you’re connected and people expect things of you, but be honest. [00:28:00] Could you take 48 hours off?
[00:28:01] Brandon Ware: It, it, thinking about it makes me anxious. Would it be okay if you did though? Absolutely. It would, nothing would be wrong.
[00:28:08] Brandon Ware: Could you take a week off? I could, makes me more anxious.
[00:28:11] Jess O’Reilly: Are you okay? You’re getting sweatier.
[00:28:13] Brandon Ware: I’m getting sweatier than I already am.
[00:28:13] Jess O’Reilly: 60 something percent humidity, a hundred degrees. And I’m telling you to take time off. Well, that’s something I think to explore, especially because in light of that advice, don’t wait until you’re older because I just feel like time flies.
[00:28:27] Jess O’Reilly: Oh wow. So much. So, we’re gonna be, I don’t even know what to say, like, 90, 100, all those years. Okay. So yeah, for everyone to maybe just think about something you’re waiting to do that you could start right now, and how can you chip away at it, even if it’s not. For Brandon, for example, a week off might not seem reasonable, but maybe you try 24 hours and you try 48 and see how it goes.
[00:28:50] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. We’ll talk about that after. I don’t know if you want my support on that or not. No, I don’t know. I might harass you. Okay. The last one for today, I have a longer list, but I’m going to stop at eight. And maybe we can do a part two. And this is an interesting one. This one is share in sexual initiation.
[00:29:05] Jess O’Reilly: Don’t leave seduction to one partner alone because the desire to feel desired is universal. And it’s true. Couples who have more satisfying relationships, both in and out of the bedroom, ensure that expressions of love and affection and sexual desire flow in both directions. And so I know I don’t initiate sex.
[00:29:25] Jess O’Reilly: As much as you do,
[00:29:26] Brandon Ware: you want me to do a little B rex sexy dance?
[00:29:29] Jess O’Reilly: Do you want, yeah, you and I can talk about this privately, but if you are one of those people like me who probably knows that you don’t initiate mutt, um, think about whether you can try it, push through the fear of rejection. Be imperfect, be sloppy, be messy.
[00:29:43] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t have to be a master seducer to
[00:29:46] Brandon Ware: have fun with it. Laugh like you said earlier.
[00:29:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And, and talk about it. Maybe your partner doesn’t mind that you don’t initiate as much, but generally we know that sharing in any sort of vid or expression for love and connection, [00:30:00] not just sexual is important in relationships.
[00:30:02] Brandon Ware: I agree.
[00:30:02] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and it can’t fall on one partner to even, even when we think about initiation more broadly, it can’t fall on one partner to initiate important conversations. It can’t, it’s not great when it falls on one partner to initiate emotional connection, to initiate spending time together, right? You don’t want to feel like you’re chasing after someone.
[00:30:21] Brandon Ware: Well, I feel. You know, as you’re saying all these things, I’m reflecting on all the points throughout our relationship when I didn’t do these things. And then there just came a point where I was like, okay, I’m going to start taking responsibility and I still haven’t taken responsibility for all of them, but certain aspects of our lives, I’m, I’m going to do this.
[00:30:34] Brandon Ware: I’m going to step up. I’m going to book some, yeah, I would know what sex I do, but there were also periods of time in this relationship where I didn’t initiate as much. And you initiated more. I don’t remember that. I do remember it. And I just, there were ebbs and flows. And again, it speaks to all of these pieces of advice that we’re given today, like applying them to you, to your relationship.
[00:30:54] Brandon Ware: It’s like being flexible, having fun, you know, living with intention, like all of these things. I can start them right now. That’s the wonderful thing. I don’t need to wait until tomorrow. I can go home tonight and I can initiate sex with you. I can plan a meal. I can plan a date, a vacation. I can make a schedule.
[00:31:13] Brandon Ware: All of these things are at my fingertips.
[00:31:15] Jess O’Reilly: Right. You can bring levity. You can sit down and kind of,
[00:31:17] Brandon Ware: I mean, I can’t bring any more levity. I’m so funny.
[00:31:22] Jess O’Reilly: So, okay. We’re going to leave you with those. Eight tips and eight action items. So hopefully you will think about, you know, the next day, the next month, the next year, what do you really want?
[00:31:32] Jess O’Reilly: What do you not want? And what changes can you make? Can you inject some play and fun into your relationship and levity? Can you make a little bit of a plan for the relationship, you know, what you’re doing well, what you want more of and what you can do about it. Can you get naked? Can you put the effort in and use your skills from other realms, perhaps business or another realm in the relationship?
[00:31:56] Jess O’Reilly: Can you ask yourself if conflict is worth it when you feel it [00:32:00] arising? And can you use cues? Like for me, I was actually just thinking, I’m going to put a sticky note. on my, uh, in the, in the, this is embarrassing and it shouldn’t be, but in the drawer where my tampons are, where my stuff is, because that’s the time when I tend to be most snappy and kind of lean into conflict.
[00:32:15] Jess O’Reilly: So I think I need that little reminder to myself. I definitely don’t need you to leave me that, but I’m going to put a little sticky note. And then finally, can you. Think about something you’ve been waiting to do that you could start now. And can you think about how you can initiate more love, more affection, or just share in that initiation with your partner?
[00:32:32] Jess O’Reilly: Not every single one of these will necessarily be relevant to you, but if you can just pick one, I think, uh, I think it’s worth it a little bit of effort and hopefully, um, some really significant outcome. All right. Well, we are setting sail very soon. So we are pre recording because we won’t have the access to everything we need on the ship, but we’re going to have a great one in Greece and Turkey, and I hope you have a great one wherever you’re at.
[00:32:57] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Financial Infidelity & How To Talk About Money
24 aug 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Has your partner lied to you about their finances?Have you ever hid spending (or debt) from a partner?Do you and your partner disagree about money – saving, spending, sharing, etc?Do you struggle to talk about money without fighting?What constitutes ‘cheating’ or financial fidelity?
Jess and Brandon discuss their experience with financial infidelity and dive into why people lie about money. They also share prompts & language to help you navigate sensitive conversations related to financial values.
Be sure to check out Bloomi in a Target near you, or check out their website for your Bloomi needs.
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Financial Infidelity & How To Talk About Money
Episode 331
[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:13] Brandon Ware: Today, we’re going to be talking about financial infidelity,
[00:00:19] Jess O’Reilly: talking about money, money, money, honey. Okay. Are we good at talking about money with each other?
[00:00:26] Brandon Ware: I think we’re good about talking about some aspects of money.
[00:00:30] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, let’s start with the good.
[00:00:31] Brandon Ware: I think we communicate a lot when it comes to certain investment opportunities. Oh, sure. Uh, things like that. Um, I think we’re both generally on the same page in terms of how much money we have. So those are some good things. I don’t know. What do you, what are your thoughts?
[00:00:45] Jess O’Reilly: You know, it’s funny. As soon as you start talking about money, especially, You know, with others in the room with us, so to speak, it’s, uh, I get uncomfortable. Like I feel uncomfortable.
[00:00:56] Brandon Ware: I grew up with the understanding that talking about money was something you did not do. And it’s becoming much more open now where people talk about how much money they make at work and how much money, um, I guess they, they want to have in the future and how much they currently have.
[00:01:10] Brandon Ware: But I did not grow up like that. You do not talk about money.
[00:01:13] Jess O’Reilly: No, and we, we do need that transparency because one, you know, exercise of power from people who do have money, who control the resources involves convincing everyone that we shouldn’t talk about it so we don’t know about their billions and whatnot.
[00:01:27] Jess O’Reilly: But I have to admit that it’s definitely not in my background to talk about it. I can talk about it in specifics when it’s relevant to the conversation. Like anytime I’ve done business with family, we’ve been very open, very straightforward about the projects themselves. But not about specifics that are personal.
[00:01:45] Jess O’Reilly: So I feel a little bit nervous, but we’re going to get into it. So, okay. You said we’re good at talking about certain things. What do we struggle with? Do you think?
[00:01:53] Brandon Ware: Sometimes I think that there’s a difference in terms of where we want to spend our money and how we want to spend our money. [00:02:00] Um, so that’s the first thing.
[00:02:00] Jess O’Reilly: You mean I want to spend it?
[00:02:02] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I want to spend our money too. I don’t want to hoard. I don’t want to hoard my money. Okay. I do want to spend it. I want to enjoy it. I think because of my upbringing, because about, I think there’s an element of shame, of guilt, about having money, about maybe not sharing the money that you have with other others.
[00:02:20] Brandon Ware: And I’m talking about with, I’m referencing my family. So I think that that is something that, um, makes me uncomfortable.
[00:02:27] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And I definitely, you know, I come from a background where we do share money with family, where we pick up tabs, where you take people places, where you treat people, things are not split down the middle.
[00:02:37] Jess O’Reilly: It is a full on. Is it WWE wrestling fight at the dim sum table to see who gets it. There’s a lot of sneaking because we want the bill, not because we don’t want the bill. I think there’s actually, for me, more shame in not paying the bill. Like you notice anywhere I go, I would rather just pick up the tab because I feel uncomfortable with the splitting.
[00:02:57] Brandon Ware: We’re going down a whole other avenue now because I mean, for me, there’s a, there’s a power dynamic when, when somebody like, when I feel like somebody is picking up the tab, but that there’s. Strings with it. Ooh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I want, and now let me be clear to any of my friends that are listening.
[00:03:14] Brandon Ware: I don’t feel that way with you. Friends? Any of my friend that is listening, I don’t feel that way with you, but it is something that, you know, money, money was like a power play, right? Where it’s like you, you picked up the tab and you did it with purpose, with reason. And I’ve had to, you know, I’ve had to kind of dismantle that, that idea that, that it was like holding something over someone’s head, which is not, first of all, when I reflected on it, it’s not the way I want to live.
[00:03:43] Brandon Ware: I never grew up like that.
[00:03:45] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not the way I want to conduct myself. Like anyone who is generous to me. In my life. Uh, like I think about an auntie who bought me a Nintendo when I was little, yeah, I got a Nintendo. And I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Did you get Duck Hunt? Of course I had Duck Hunt.
[00:03:56] Jess O’Reilly: That’s the only game I, I only had Mario and Duck Hunt [00:04:00] because it’s what came with the console. We never got another game. I don’t think.
[00:04:03] Brandon Ware: I remember Johnny who lived across the street from me. He had a Nintendo and it was.
[00:04:07] Jess O’Reilly: Actually, eventually I think we got Tetris. We, is that for Nintendo?
[00:04:11] Brandon Ware: Well, that was the, uh, what was the handheld one?
[00:04:14] Brandon Ware: Game Boy.
[00:04:14] Jess O’Reilly: No, I think I had Tetris on the computer if I’m not on the Nintendo console. Anyhow, it was given without strings. And I do have so many people in my life who give without strings. Like one of my cousins who I’m closest with is just a natural giver. And I don’t just mean financial. I know we’re talking about money, but giving of time and energy and space and hospitality and food.
[00:04:35] Jess O’Reilly: They are also very generous, super generous. So I think the more you’re around those people. And they don’t want anything from you, the more you pick up that same attitude of giving.
[00:04:44] Brandon Ware: And I, and I feel like I need to clarify, I don’t think, I mean, having had been with you now for 22 years, I do try to model your behavior, which is be generous, you know, don’t expect anything in return.
[00:04:55] Brandon Ware: And I hope that I, I come across that way now because I genuinely, when I pick up the bill, it’s because I want to, it’s because I take pleasure in, in. You know, in paying for that meal or, or being, or the company that has chosen to join me for that meal. Like I’m very appreciative of that.
[00:05:12] Jess O’Reilly: Can I just tell you, I’m super nervous.
[00:05:14] Jess O’Reilly: I feel like it’s just the talking about money. I can’t kind of shake the nerves today, but yes. And you know. Especially if you’ve come from a background where you maybe you didn’t, for me, we didn’t grow up with as much and now we have, we have a great life. And so we’re able to pick up the tab, like that feels really good, but I guess I wonder if there’s a difference where I might want to pick it up more than you.
[00:05:34] Brandon Ware: Uh, I don’t know. I, I, I still feel like I, I generally want to. Pick up the bill with some people with, yeah, with, with most people.
[00:05:42] Jess O’Reilly: Most people. Yeah. Is it an, it’s, it’s actually a bit of a response where I don’t like that moment where you’re trying to figure out who pays it. So I’d rather just pay it.
[00:05:50] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I mean, that’s definitely something that crosses my mind too. I think I was lucky to end of a meal when you’re waiting for the bill to come. I’d rather just pay the bill.
[00:05:58] Jess O’Reilly: I started [00:06:00] 18 years old, so I had cash. So even when I was in university and I was paying my way through university, I had cash.
[00:06:06] Brandon Ware: I did not.
[00:06:07] Brandon Ware: You didn’t. I remember the day I became a hundredaire.
[00:06:11] Jess O’Reilly: So I was used to paying for things cause. You know, when you’re younger, especially people have different amounts of money and actually that’s still the case in our lives. And so to me, it’s like, if I have a little bit more, I want to pay for it. Okay, let’s move away from you and me and talk more generally about financial infidelity because I have a whole bunch of questions that I’ve received from you folks that relate to financial infidelity.
[00:06:34] Jess O’Reilly: And I want to, before we dive into it, shout out. Our friends over at Bloomi again. So Bloomi is a sexologist led sexual wellness brand, and they make a range of products from fabulous vibrators to organic lubes, all available at Target. And they’re a partner of ours. And we were involved in their last round of investment because we’re fans of what they’re doing.
[00:06:55] Jess O’Reilly: So they’ve established the industry’s first clean standard for intimacy products in the U S their lubes are five, 10 K cleared by that. FDA. Toys are made with medical grade silicone. They make sustainable, really high quality products. Again, accessible price points. Ergonomic, designed with accessibility in mind for different sizes, different shapes, different abilities, and with a prioritization of sustainability with eco friendly packaging, recyclable sugar cane, treeless cartons, all.
[00:07:22] Jess O’Reilly: Compostable, that’s such a hard word for me. . Uh, and again, once again, available at Target, over a thousand stores across the us so please do check them out. The first Tina founded brand in Target sexual wellness aisle. And if you aren’t in the States, you can check them [email protected]. And Bloom is b l o o m i.
[00:07:45] Jess O’Reilly: So Bloomi.com. Nice and simple. Please do check them out. Okay, financial infidelity. So I was looking at some of the data. Around a third of us have lied to our partners about money. An equal number have been on the [00:08:00] receiving end of some form of financial infidelity. And financial infidelity, of course, can take so many different forms.
[00:08:07] Jess O’Reilly: So it might involve hiding money, lying about debt, lying about income, inflating or deflating figures. falsifying records, uh, definitely using financial power to manipulate or control a partner. And of course it wreaks havoc on all relationships. It doesn’t even have to be a partner, families as well. Uh, and it can be a symptom of relationship troubles as opposed to the root issue itself.
[00:08:31] Jess O’Reilly: So I want to get into this. And in defining financial infidelity, I think sometimes we set the bar for so called fidelity at a level that most of us can’t live up to, right? If you define financial cheating as any spending that you hide from your partner, you know, maybe you sneak an item of clothing in at the grocery store, treat yourself to a special edition pair of sneakers, and maybe just don’t show them the receipts.
[00:08:55] Jess O’Reilly: Some people are going to consider that cheating.
[00:08:57] Brandon Ware: I thought you were going to say something like they had it. An extra beer or a coffee, you could buy some new kicks, you could drop three, four hundred bucks.
[00:09:03] Jess O’Reilly: Oh yeah. Some kicks cost more than that. Oh yeah. Not mine, but I, and you know, for others it’s more serious where it’s a secret bank account, undisclosed debt, losses from investments that went wrong.
[00:09:13] Jess O’Reilly: And I think anytime you’re hiding something, you might consider it cheating, but okay, let’s be realistic. I think we’ve all covered something up or neglected to mention. AKA lie by omission. Some purchase at some point in time, because I don’t know, maybe sometimes it’s not relevant to your budget or your relationship.
[00:09:31] Jess O’Reilly: Some people keep their finances separate. And so to get back to the definition, I think if you’re breaking an agreed upon contract by lying directly or indirectly, you might be cheating. financially, so I don’t know if I really defined it there. Okay, have you lied to me about money?
[00:09:48] Brandon Ware: I mean, based on that description, I’m sure that I have.
[00:09:51] Brandon Ware: I feel like I’m very transparent when it comes to our money. Um, we’ve shared money since, like, we shared a bank account since the moment we [00:10:00] more or less met.
[00:10:00] Jess O’Reilly: Right, because who was going to pay our rent if I didn’t let you into mine?
[00:10:03] Brandon Ware: Let’s be real, I had no money. I was like, let’s share money because I’ve got none, so you.
[00:10:09] Brandon Ware: Actually, that reminds me of the conversation that we had with, uh, Justin, the, uh, the divorce lawyer, right? And he was saying, it depends who’s coming to the table with what assets in advance and the importance of getting a prenup sign.
[00:10:21] Jess O’Reilly: I didn’t really have assets. Like I was 21. Some cash.
[00:10:25] Brandon Ware: If you had 20 bucks, it was assets based on what I had.
[00:10:28] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And we were working in a business where we earned cash quickly. Mm hmm, right? Like the money came in quickly and the money went out quickly.
[00:10:37] Brandon Ware: Mine not so quickly as yours, but definitely quickly.
[00:10:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, but as soon as you learned to bartend. Then it came in quicker. Yeah, exactly.
[00:10:44] Jess O’Reilly: We’re pretty grateful for that job. We were very lucky to have those jobs in the heyday of nightclubs, too. I don’t know if it’s the same anymore.
[00:10:51] Brandon Ware: I remember my first outfit bartending. Pair of gold shorts. Gold, they’re not even shorts. Gold underwear.
[00:10:58] Jess O’Reilly: Brandon’s first bartending gig was at a nightclub in Toronto called Fly.
[00:11:02] Jess O’Reilly: And you guys went all night because it was like a circuit party.
[00:11:05] Brandon Ware: Yeah man, they partied until like 8am.
[00:11:08] Jess O’Reilly: I remember that you would come home and the sun was up.
[00:11:11] Brandon Ware: Oh yeah. I remember I got pulled over by the cops once on the way home, um, because I think I slow rolled a stop sign. Okay, and the guy pulled me over and he’s like, where are you coming from?
[00:11:19] Brandon Ware: Now I had changed out of my gold briefs, but uh, I was like, I was bartending at Fly and I’m like He kind of looked at me and nodded and he’s like He could tell that I had not been drinking. He’s like, just go home. Go to bed.
[00:11:32] Jess O’Reilly: And Fly, honestly, was just a few minutes from our house. I’m surprised you even drove.
[00:11:35] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I’m not sure I drove. Like, It was super close. So, okay, I want to get into why we lie about money, but I want to admit that I’ve definitely hidden stuff from you. Oh, I know. I’m laughing
[00:11:46] Brandon Ware: because I know you’ve hidden stuff from me. Like, it’s not. It’s probably, let me ask, it’s not huge things. It was like clothing purchases.
[00:11:53] Jess O’Reilly: Not clothing.
[00:11:54] Brandon Ware: Maybe a car. I don’t know. I’ve never owned a car.
[00:11:57] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t buy clothing, uh, [00:12:00] but it would be more, for example, the most recent one I can think of. Oh, something recent. Okay, tell me. Yeah, so I would tell you if you asked me point blank, but I’d rather not show you. It’s like lying by omission. So yeah, just stalling here.
[00:12:12] Jess O’Reilly: Do you remember that super fun karaoke night I had in December? Yeah, the most fun night.
[00:12:18] Brandon Ware: So I know you paid for everything that day. What did you buy the bar around a shot? You did, didn’t you? Did you really that’s awesome.
[00:12:28] Jess O’Reilly: It was really fun and it was sort of this bar where it was all students and then old people And then me and my two friends come in dressed up because we had this like fancy dinner for the holidays And everyone was just so warm and welcoming.
[00:12:43] Brandon Ware: Oh, that was great. I had a good time there. Yeah. Until I left.
[00:12:45] Jess O’Reilly: You were only there for a minute.
[00:12:46] Brandon Ware: No, I, I stayed for like an hour or so. I got in a couple of ballads. Do you not remember my performance?
[00:12:51] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so after you were done singing. Pretty amazing. I got some rounds. And so it’s not that I
[00:12:56] Brandon Ware: You just went from A round to buy some rounds.
[00:13:00] Brandon Ware: Oh, this is hilarious.
[00:13:01] Jess O’Reilly: They were vodka shots. Do you, using air quotes with vodka? No, they were vodka shots. I tried to convince them to sell me a bottle, but it’s not the bottle service type of place. It’s like a neighborhood. I like that place, man. It’s a bar slash Chinese food restaurant. Anyhow. So I would, for example, not put those receipts in your file.
[00:13:22] Brandon Ware: What do you think? I’m not going to see the credit card statement?
[00:13:24] Jess O’Reilly: No, I know you’re going to know, but I kind of just don’t want to talk about it and I’m sweating right now. So those types of things are the things that I would. Not be as honest about.
[00:13:36] Brandon Ware: And also recognize, recognizing the privilege with which we operate where it’s like, that’s okay.
[00:13:40] Brandon Ware: Like it’s not gonna, it’s not gonna, you know, send a, we’re not going to miss a rent payment or food for the children or whatever it is. But I’m laughing about it because I’m like, what did you, what was the concern with telling me about it? Because I’m laughing about it right now. I would have laughed about it then.
[00:13:55] Brandon Ware: I was actually more surprised that any of the three of you, because you went with your two friends, [00:14:00] could even
[00:14:00] Brandon Ware: communicate with each other the next day.
[00:14:03] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, I was singing some George Michaels, some Mariah Carey Christmas albums, and I was very communicative.
[00:14:10] Brandon Ware: I saw Mel trying to sing, and it was, it was a lot of yelling.
[00:14:14] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so now that we’ve cleared the air on that, no, I’m not afraid of your response. I think maybe I’m just a little embarrassed where I’m like, yeah, I might’ve bought a round of shots or two. Or
[00:14:24] Brandon Ware: two or three.
[00:14:27] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, something like that. So I have to say that there are things that I haven’t shown you. over time.
[00:14:33] Jess O’Reilly: And we are, yes, absolutely in a position of privilege where if I go spend a little too much at a bar, I mean really like that was a one time a year thing, we’re still okay. So for me, it was embarrassment because you wouldn’t do that. Like you wouldn’t drink too much and be like, you’re all my best friends.
[00:14:49] Jess O’Reilly: Here’s some polarized vodka.
[00:14:51] Brandon Ware: Mind you, if everyone gave me a standing ovation for my, uh, for my karaoke performance, I might be inclined to buy everybody.
[00:14:57] Jess O’Reilly: Nobody gave me a standing ovation. So that’s why you had to buy their love. I, I, listen, folks, I buy love. I was giving a dog treats this morning. Okay, we need to continue.
[00:15:05] Jess O’Reilly: So I’m thinking about why I lied and why people lie about money. And I think there are so many layers and reasons. I think sometimes it has to do with shame. and fear of judgment, right? We’re ashamed that we made an impulse buy. We’re embarrassed that we still carry student debt or credit card debt, and we don’t want to be judged.
[00:15:23] Jess O’Reilly: You know, people lie because they don’t want to be judged for what they earn. Others begin with a small lie that kind of blossoms into ongoing deception by accident. I think other times it’s about pressure to meet societal or familial or cultural expectations with regard to earning or saving or building for the future.
[00:15:42] Jess O’Reilly: You know, there’s a client I’m thinking of who hid her debt from her husband and her entire family after losing a high sum. Okay, a big sum to a dishonest business partner because after decades of kind of one financial success [00:16:00] after another, she was mortified and she was just. And of course, lying affects the relationship, but I think if you talk about why you lied, if you can have some understanding and vulnerability there, you can, you can talk, get through it.
[00:16:13] Jess O’Reilly: You know, sometimes lies about money are actually pro social, meaning that we use them to engage, Protect or support others, or at least that’s our perception. So maybe you hide a parking ticket because you know, it’s something that would stress your partner out. Or sometimes I think it’s about a lack of safety and security, whether those be emotional or financial, right?
[00:16:33] Jess O’Reilly: You don’t feel like you can open up to your partner if you’ve made a mistake or a decision that led to a loss or a spend, maybe you don’t feel safe telling your partner where you’re at financially, because maybe there’s a dynamic or an unrealistic expectation. about how much you should earn or save or bring to the table.
[00:16:51] Jess O’Reilly: You know, in other cases, these ones are really hard. I find folks will hide their spending habits because they fundamentally disagree with their partner on financial values. So for example, if your partner refuses to see your perspective on spending on something that you value, or if your expectations around.
[00:17:08] Jess O’Reilly: debt or savings differ really greatly. You know, sometimes it’s easier to just keep money separate in those cases. But I have to say, I’ve seen so many relationships break up over a values misalignment. Like it can be really hard to bridge.
[00:17:21] Brandon Ware: Would you say that our values have always been aligned financial values?
[00:17:25] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a good question. Um, No, I think that we’ve kind of built together because we’re in such a different space than we were when we met. I think we’re probably more aligned now than we ever were and that does come from a place of privilege, which I’m again uncomfortable talking about. But I think that your safety net needed to be bigger than my safety net.
[00:17:46] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm. And I think it’s because from a young age, from 18, I was earning money. Mm hmm. Right? Whereas, you know, you had… lower paying jobs. And so there was a nervousness that if I were to lose my job, if there was an [00:18:00] unexpected expense, if something fell through that you wouldn’t be able to pay rent or you wouldn’t be able to make the car payment.
[00:18:07] Jess O’Reilly: And so I think that probably the privilege of earning, because earning is a privilege. It’s not that I’m brilliant or I worked harder. It’s I’m lucky. To have had those jobs at the bar, in the clubs, to have had security. I think maybe I’ve had more financial security since I’ve been financially independent.
[00:18:23] Brandon Ware: I can say that I certainly didn’t get the number of tips as a stock boy at Kmart that I think you got working in the bars.
[00:18:28] Jess O’Reilly: Well, you didn’t wear a bikini like I did.
[00:18:29] Brandon Ware: No, I didn’t. I don’t think they would. have let me. But I would, I would agree though. And I’m, I’m not surprised. I agree with you that our financial values were not terribly different from the beginning, but slightly different.
[00:18:42] Brandon Ware: And I would say that you’ve flexed more towards my side of the spectrum, or at least you did, I think initially. And then now I feel like we’re Pretty much parallel in terms of our alignment with financial values. I don’t know how that will change moving forward because I do see you approaching things a little bit differently than I do right now.
[00:19:03] Brandon Ware: And I feel like I need to kind of swing or become at least receptive to how you want to spend our money. Now, moving forward,
[00:19:11] Jess O’Reilly: I think one of the things to, to be honest, if we’re talking about ourselves is that we don’t spend a lot, like neither of us is a shopper. I don’t buy clothing. I used to buy more, but I mean, definitely post pandemic, like I just don’t spend a lot.
[00:19:25] Jess O’Reilly: We’re not buying clothes. We’re not buying shoes. I don’t collect handbags, any of those things. I have, we have everything we need, right? I’m not naked.
[00:19:33] Brandon Ware: I feel, I feel very lucky for all the things that I have, but I also feel like I don’t think that we have the financial, maybe. Some people see them as like vices or kind of desires for certain things, bags, watches, cars that can, you know, make life very difficult if you don’t have the financial means to continue to upkeep them or trade them in and get new ones and so on.
[00:19:55] Jess O’Reilly: And the flip side of that is when you don’t have financial stress. [00:20:00] It’s easier to align when you’re really dealing with the fact that people are underpaid, overworked, inflation, cost of living is so high, of course that’s going to take a toll on your relationship. So if you’re comfortably above the poverty line, I think it makes it easier for us to have these conversations and align.
[00:20:18] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I completely agree. Now, I’m thinking about red flags because if you’re worried that your partner is being dishonest, you’ve probably encountered some of the red flags already, right? People hiding their mail, changing their passwords, discarding receipts, like the one from the bar that night. Um, you know, I’ve heard from people, listen, I’ve heard some serious stories around financial infidelity.
[00:20:39] Jess O’Reilly: Folks who have had partners kind of insisting that they sign documents without reading them. Folks who refuse to set a budget. And I get it that people are not keen on budgets necessarily, but become defensive or avoidant or really angry when you even. Try and talk about money. Now, I don’t want to say that those are universal red flags, because there’s a lot of reasons why people don’t want to talk about money.
[00:21:00] Jess O’Reilly: But I think about if, if you’re on the side where you have been hiding something, you have to think about, okay, so how do I come clean? Should I come clean? Do I have to tell you every little thing, but I think if something to do with money and maybe hiding a habit or. An experience, if it’s causing you distress, and if money is adversely affecting the relationship, I think it is time to speak up.
[00:21:22] Jess O’Reilly: And if you don’t feel like you can have this conversation, if it becomes explosive, if your partner, you know, just gets too upset or withdraws, it can be helpful to just do it with a therapist or a financial counselor support and guidance. And it does involve, if you’ve been hiding money, you have to take responsibility first.
[00:21:38] Jess O’Reilly: And Sure, you can help to explain why you did it, but you can’t really make excuses. And I do think if you are going to open up to somebody that you love about having lied about money, it’s good to have a plan in place for recovery and for recovery. Moving forward. Right.
[00:21:57] Brandon Ware: And great. That’s a great piece of it.
[00:21:58] Brandon Ware: Don’t just come to me with problems. Come [00:22:00] to me with solutions.
[00:22:00] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be the solution. It’s just, you know, here are some of our options. And of course, you know, there’s no, there are no universal rules for sharing or in disclosing and relationships. Some people believe you should share everything and others have more Value for separation of privacy.
[00:22:16] Jess O’Reilly: But here’s it all comes down to this to me. If you can open up about the vulnerable feelings that underpin your financial decisions, including infidelity, I think your partner is going to be more likely to listen and understand and have empathy and work toward a collaborative resolution. But one thing I see is people will do something where clearly they’re the ones breaking the contract, like clearly they’re the ones hiding money, and then they blame their partner.
[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: Right. I would,
[00:22:41] Brandon Ware: I would hear that all the time, I shouldn’t say all the time, but I heard it a number of times in, when I was working in real estate and to the point where I would have to say to people, I can’t work with you if you’re doing this, like this is malicious. This is, this is conniving, like, and I can’t, I can’t be a part of this legally, I can’t be a part of this.
[00:23:00] Jess O’Reilly: What about people? Did you see people in couples who would be hiding things from each other?
[00:23:04] Brandon Ware: Yes. Especially in couples where the relationship wasn’t. Um, a solid and where one partner felt they weren’t unsure about the relationship moving forward. And another partner wanted to, to advance the relationship by moving in together, by buying something together or on the flip side where the relationship already existed and somebody wanted to separate.
[00:23:23] Brandon Ware: And they were like thinking about like, how do I, how do I move, save, hide money. And as soon as that came up, I’m like, I can’t, I can’t, I will not be involved in this. I’m like. You might be, I, I, I would just, I remember a circumstance where I said, like, I can’t work with you, you have to go and talk to a lawyer and you have to figure out what you can and can’t do because I can’t be a part of this and I won’t be a part.
[00:23:46] Brandon Ware: So I’ve seen it on both sides going in and coming out.
[00:23:49] Jess O’Reilly: That sucks.
[00:23:50] Brandon Ware: It does suck.
[00:23:51] Jess O’Reilly: It really sucks. And I, when I think about the why’s I’m like, okay, what stops us from just. being honest. And I mean, I know so many people just want to avoid uncomfortable [00:24:00] conversations, but the hurt that we cause in the long run.
[00:24:03] Jess O’Reilly: So, you know, on, on the one side, if you have been hiding things, think about how you can open up. And if you’re on the other side, if you discover that someone you love is being financially dishonest, I think, can you keep an open mind? Can you contemplate why they might have felt pressured by themselves?
[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: by society, by their family, even by the dynamic in your relationship, why might they have felt pressured to lie about money? And obviously, if they are hiding something, you probably want to talk to them. And I would definitely consider seeking professional support on that end, right? The stress of financial infidelity can be similar to that of sexual or relational infidelity.
[00:24:40] Jess O’Reilly: So rebuilding trust becomes the name of the game. And with professional support. I think that can be easier. And again, when you open up about those vulnerable feelings, I think that leads the conversation in in the right direction. And I think what we have to remember when I talk about layers, we have to realize that financial expectations, financial values intersect with our upbringing, with our familial beliefs, with personal values, with insecurities, with conceptions of responsibility, roles we play, identity related to gender, and so much more.
[00:25:12] Jess O’Reilly: But it really is an essential discussion.
[00:25:14] Brandon Ware: I remember when we first got together, I mean, the embarrassment that I had not having the money. to do some of the things that you wanted to do and how it really flipped the, the kind of the gender roles where you were taking me out and I had to learn to be okay with that.
[00:25:29] Brandon Ware: And it drove Hang on, you seemed okay. Well, I seemed okay because I was like, I’d like to go out with you. Um, but I do remember feeling genuinely feeling uncomfortable, but not having. I don’t want to say the emotional intelligence, but, but just to the, the time, the effort, the, the, yeah, like the ability to reflect back on like, why am I feeling this way?
[00:25:46] Brandon Ware: It’s okay. You know, that somebody else is doing something for me that cares about me. And then that sad to admit that that was a driving force behind, you know, the first few years of my work, if not longer, which was, you know, [00:26:00] needing to, to kind of embrace the social hierarchy of how much money I had to make.
[00:26:06] Brandon Ware: And it really sucks when you define yourself by how much money you have in the bank, as opposed to the person that you are. And especially with your partner. Like I’m so grateful and so thankful for you taking care of me. Not that I didn’t work and not that I didn’t earn money. You worked a ton when I met you.
[00:26:22] Brandon Ware: I had to, I felt like I had to work a ton just to keep up. But that’s not for, that’s not to, for you to feel bad for me or anything like that. But it was, you know, these pressures that are there. That you’re constantly being fed and that I do think that the younger generations are aware of and they’re saying, you know what, screw this.
[00:26:40] Brandon Ware: I’m not going to play your games. I’m not going to kind of just capitulate to this capitalistic way of life and wake up in 30 years and be unhappy. I’m going to recognize it now, say screw it. And I’m going to live the way that I want to live.
[00:26:53] Jess O’Reilly: Still have to support yourself within the system, but definitely not making it all about making money.
[00:26:59] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:27:00] Jess O’Reilly: Or as fun as money is, of course.
[00:27:02] Brandon Ware: Of course. And I mean, I’m, I would be lying to you if I said I didn’t enjoy. Having money to do things. Mm hmm. So.
[00:27:09] Jess O’Reilly: Ah, well I have a bunch of questions from folks and I’m going to weigh in kind of briefly on them. So I’m going to dive right in here. So this first person writes in and says, My husband doesn’t let me see the accounts and it’s getting worse and worse.
[00:27:21] Jess O’Reilly: I think. He spends on golf, poker, clothes, watches. I’m always on a tight budget trying to get the staples like groceries and kids clothes. He says we’re fine and not to worry but I saw the credit card statement six months ago. And we are really in debt. Now, he won’t let me see a thing, and I don’t know what to do.
[00:27:36] Jess O’Reilly: I love him. He’s good to me, and he’s a great dad. Everything else feels good in the life that we’ve built together, but I’m stressed about money. And I should add that he’s from money, and I’m not. Ooh, so. You know, this is a dynamic and arrangement that, that worries me a little. You know, when one partner spends more, hides debt, and has most or all of the control.
[00:27:55] Jess O’Reilly: over the finances because money is survival in a world, in the world we live in, [00:28:00] whether we like it or not. So I think it’s important that we have both financial literacy and an understanding of where we’re at financially. So you don’t have to know everything, but I would think, for example, you, you want to know where your money is and have access to it, right?
[00:28:13] Jess O’Reilly: Especially if you’re buying staples like kids clothes and groceries, you probably want to have an idea of how much you’re spending and. Maybe how much you’re saving. I know not everybody can save. If you’re in debt, you may not be saving and I think you want to know what you need to do financially if your partner wasn’t around or if they were incapacitated.
[00:28:33] Jess O’Reilly: And this is something that oftentimes gets lost in relationships. Um, you know, in older relationships, it was often a gender thing or one partner worked and the other partner didn’t. That’s less common today, although it still exists. I was talking to a woman who’s 77 the other day and her partner died and He handled everything financially.
[00:28:50] Jess O’Reilly: She doesn’t know anything, like, doesn’t know what the 401k is, how the investments work. So, I think it’s easier to learn those things when, earlier on, right? When you’re not dealing with the stress of the loss of the love of your life. So my suggestion is… Sit down, let him know that you want to learn and that you want to understand.
[00:29:07] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not about accusations, but it’s about your own understanding. And if he is resistant or refuses to talk, let him know you’re going to take a look at the bills and the statements. And you say he’s good to you, so it doesn’t sound like you’re in a dangerous position. But if you do feel, you know, a flip of a switch, because people will flip.
[00:29:24] Jess O’Reilly: into a new person when it comes to money, especially if there’s any shame or embarrassment or feelings of having their identity threatened around it. Definitely get professional help, like talk to a counselor even just once. If your name is on the accounts, I’d say go to your financial institution and ask them to explain.
[00:29:39] Jess O’Reilly: where you’re at and what your options are. Because just with this small amount of info, I don’t know if maybe he does want help, but doesn’t want to burden you with it. Or if he doesn’t realize how serious this debt is, or perhaps doesn’t realize that you’re scrimping and saving to get the staples, while some of the discretionary spending on his end is a little bit higher.
[00:29:58] Jess O’Reilly: But I do hope you start this [00:30:00] conversation and go to your financial institution. Hopefully your name is… is on the accounts. Okay. Next one. It’s kind of similar. My wife is always hiding bills from me and shopping behind my back. I don’t mean here and there. I mean every week, new outfits, new stuff for our house.
[00:30:17] Jess O’Reilly: We earn about 50 50. We’re not in debt and I don’t want to control her spending. She’s amazing in every way. I just want her to be honest because if it feels like she’s hiding her shopping, it makes me think she can hide other things and I want it to be more open. Yeah, I mean, I think some people might say, oh, this isn’t so serious because you’re in a strong financial position.
[00:30:39] Jess O’Reilly: Let her do what she wants. But I’d say, no, you’re absolutely right. Being lied to hurts. Um, and repeated lies undermine the existing trust and connection and admiration. You have for her and, and even the relationship itself. So I think you need to let her know that last part, maybe even read her what you wrote to me here.
[00:30:56] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I was like the way that they wrote that statement was very, you know, empathetic, carefully crafted. And if the partner on the other end is as receptive, then I would imagine, hopefully it results in a fruitful conversation.
[00:31:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, you can have a conversation maybe about why she’s hiding or lying when you don’t seem particularly reactive about it.
[00:31:14] Jess O’Reilly: Um, you know, there maybe is a fear or a self consciousness or financially related trauma or shame underlying her behavior. So, yeah, let her know exactly what you said. You’re amazing. But also let her know, you know, your behavior is making me feel however it’s making you feel. Is it making you feel alone or disconnected or hurt or unsure or whatever feelings are coming up for you.
[00:31:34] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, please go have that convo. Next. Okay. My husband spends too much and saves too little. How do I convince him that we need to save for the future? We’re 43 and 45 with two young kids and we don’t even have an RESP, let alone an RRSP. So for, those are Canadian terms. That your RSP is like the American version of the 401k and then our ESP is, uh, savings for education.
[00:31:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:32:00] Education savings account. Yeah. And when you put money in, the government also contributes some funds so that your kid can use it for college or something, learning in the future, uh, for the, for those who are not Canadian and are not familiar with those. So listen, I could say, Hey, start the conversation, but I would also say maybe prepare first, go to your bank.
[00:32:16] Jess O’Reilly: Or a financial planner to draw up scenarios and put together some plans for you because they’re going to be able to map out, Hey, you’re 43 and 45, which is a bit later to, to start saving for our ESPs and our RSPs, but never, ever too late. It is never, ever too late. I mean, I’m not a financial person, but I would say go to them and they’ll drop different plans to show you how.
[00:32:40] Jess O’Reilly: You may be able to retire or how you’re perhaps able to send your kids to school or support them in some way if that’s, if that’s a goal of yours, which I assume it is because you brought up the R E S P. And I’d also say, you know, I think again, this is a financial side, not the relational side, but use an app to create a budget, right?
[00:32:56] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s an app, like for example, Y N A B. So it stands for you need a budget. So if you don’t have access to a professional right now, use the app. But I will say like in Canada and you’re in Canada, it sounds like most banks will because They want your money, they want you to save, they want you to invest with them, so they will probably draw up scenarios and they have software that will do that, and you can probably even find some on online, but I would say before you go to him to have this conversation, don’t put it off too long, but have some sort of a plan so you can show him what you have in mind.
[00:33:26] Brandon Ware: I’m also wondering because They say, she said at the beginning that they’re saving too little, spending too much. What, what is like, what is it that your goal, what is it that you consider to be a reasonable amount? Because maybe it’s unreasonable and I’m not being critical. Maybe it’s totally reasonable, but as you said, maybe coming forward with two or three different options where it’s like, I’d like to, I like to save this much.
[00:33:48] Brandon Ware: Because then maybe they want to save less and you can find some middle ground or something and at least start the process so you feel a little bit more comfortable. But understanding that I think would be important from the beginning.
[00:33:57] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. Absolutely. Okay. [00:34:00] To a younger couple now, they say, actually it’s just one of them writing in.
[00:34:05] Jess O’Reilly: It’s never both, right? We’re moving in soon, 26 and 28 years old, but our spending habits and financial backgrounds are totally different. He’s a cheapskate. Ooh. He still wants to split everything down the middle. I earn more than him and I don’t mind paying more. Is this a red flag? Ooh, so I think this is an opportunity to learn and understand one another better.
[00:34:24] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t think his desire to split things is a red flag, but I do think that maybe the judgment of calling him a cheapskate might be something you want to reflect on because to be fair, maybe it’s just a little bit of lost in translation in terms of how I read the text, right? Sometimes it lacks the tone or the playfulness, but I do hope that you’re starting from a place of respecting your differences because you come from divergent financial backgrounds.
[00:34:49] Jess O’Reilly: And I will say, those of us who maybe didn’t have As much of a financial safety net, we are maybe looking to build more of a financial safety net. Maybe we can’t move back in with our parents. Maybe, you know, we don’t have something to fall back on. So, and I’m not saying that’s the case, but I do know that there’s many reasons why people have different expectations with regard to how they spend their money.
[00:35:10] Jess O’Reilly: And you might see someone as cheap, but they also might just be being careful. So… Mmm, before you move in together, please, talk about money, and do it with a professional if you could use some additional support. And I’ll actually share a few prompts to get you started if you don’t have the support of a professional, or you can take these to your counselor.
[00:35:27] Jess O’Reilly: And you can answer these on your own, kind of jot down your responses, and then come together to share. And these are just some conversation starters. Right? That we, I use with clients. So I’ll read them out to you now. Let me pull them up here. All right.
[00:35:38] Brandon Ware: I think it, I, I think it’s important though, just thinking about her approaching him for the first time and using the word, and maybe it was playful cheapskate, that I would suggest using we statements instead of you statements.
[00:35:51] Jess O’Reilly: It’s like, you’re cheap. Let’s sit, listen, you’re a cheapskate, so let’s talk. Why don’t, why don’t we talk about
[00:35:55] Brandon Ware: what we can, what we can do to save more money, you know?
[00:35:58] Jess O’Reilly: Well, actually, [00:36:00] back to us. Thank you. Thanks. Have you felt like I thought you were cheap at points in time?
[00:36:04] Brandon Ware: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think and my, I don’t think I am cheap.
[00:36:10] Brandon Ware: I think I felt, and I think it came down to judgment. I think it was, I felt like I was being judged. So, you know, what’s funny is I would. I would end up doing the opposite. So because I was afraid of being judged for being cheap, I would actually spend more, give more, tip more, sometimes to the point where I was like, well, just tip the same cost as the meal, but it was, I mean, really, when you think about these are all parts of what I felt were.
[00:36:39] Brandon Ware: We’re me that kind of defined me as opposed to, you know, it being, I know that my actions reflect, you know, who I am, but I just, anyway,
[00:36:47] Jess O’Reilly: I’m sorry if you felt judged by me,
[00:36:49] Brandon Ware: you know what? It’s not that I think I felt judged by me. I don’t think I felt judged by you. Now that I’m reflecting back on the, on the circumstance, on the situations, I think it was my own discomfort
[00:37:01] Jess O’Reilly: and let’s be honest, this was about gender.
[00:37:04] Jess O’Reilly: This is
[00:37:04] Brandon Ware: about masculinity and the problems associated with that and like learning to decouple those, like the toxic masculinity, the, the social pressures, like. It’s one thing to say, Oh, don’t worry about it. Don’t play into it. And it’s like, well, I’m bombarded with these messages so frequently throughout the day that it’s hard to, to, for me to walk away from, but it’s taken time and I still am influenced.
[00:37:27] Brandon Ware: For sure. I am. I’d be lying if I said I would.
[00:37:29] Jess O’Reilly: And your takeaway is don’t start the conversation with, Hey, we’re teasing you
[00:37:36] Jess O’Reilly: too. So I hope. But we do appreciate your question. And I think it’s, I actually really appreciate when people are honest. Yeah. Because someone, me, when I speak, listen, I misspeak all the time. I say things that I think are funny that are not. And so having a mirror held up or somebody kind of calling me in and saying, Hey, maybe you want to consider other language.
[00:37:52] Jess O’Reilly: So let me give you some language to get started in this conversation. So here are some of the questions from this money exercise I do with [00:38:00] clients. What did you learn about money growing up in your household? How did your parents or caregivers talk about money? If there were money related disputes, what were the issues?
[00:38:10] Jess O’Reilly: How were these issues discussed or resolved, if at all? How do you feel about your current financial situation? Do you have a set amount that you plan to save or spend? And of course, not everyone can afford to save and that. Of course, can affect how we relate to money. Do you have a budget? What flexibilities exist in your budget?
[00:38:30] Jess O’Reilly: If you don’t have a budget, can we talk about planning one? Have you thought about merging finances or accounts? Do you want to keep your accounts separate? How will you split expenses? And there was a new study, I was on Global TV this week or last week, talking about This finding that couples who merge their accounts have less conflict about money, more unity in the relationship, and overall happier relationships because fewer conflicts around an intense issue.
[00:38:57] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, but having said that, that doesn’t mean you should say, look, this study showed we need to merge our accounts because there’s no one size fits all approach. Right? There’s different ways that people make their money work. There’s hybrid models where you have a pooled account, but then you have separate accounts for discretionary spending, which I think can be really fun for some couples because it means you can still treat each other, surprise each other, like buy a little gift or take them for dinner if that’s within your budget.
[00:39:21] Jess O’Reilly: And this conversation, these questions, these prompts are really just the beginning. And I know money’s just such a hot button issue. Again, because it’s so personal, it connects so deeply to shame and early family trauma for so many of us. So what’s important is that you start talking and you keep the conversations going.
[00:39:38] Jess O’Reilly: And I do want to add, if you find yourself judging him, this is for anyone, I take a look at why that feeling is coming up for you, right? Why do you think he’s a cheapskate and what does that mean to you and how does it relate to your experiences? of money in relationships. You know, ask yourself how it relates to your financial identity.
[00:39:57] Jess O’Reilly: For example, do you [00:40:00] overspend some time and then feel guilty about it? So you judge people who err on the other side, who don’t spend. Maybe you’re having this reflective or deflective lens. And I’m not saying that’s the case, but just consider how your own money hangups, your own money issues, because we’ve all got them, might lead to judgment that holds you back from really having these conversations and finding common ground as you build this next stage of your life together.
[00:40:22] Brandon Ware: Yeah, which is exciting, right? I mean, it can be a really fun time. It can also be a point where some of the pressure is relieved. Like if you’re both contributing to household expenses or rent, because I mean, things are so expensive right now.
[00:40:34] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, yes. Okay. I have one last question with a short answer. If my new girlfriend hid her credit card and student loan debt from me, Does this qualify as financial infidelity?
[00:40:44] Jess O’Reilly: You want me to answer first? No, my answer is, I don’t know. I need more context. And I don’t think it matters what we call it. I think if you’re having feelings, if you’re feeling betrayed, if you’re feeling like someone has been dishonest with you, whether it’s about money or sex or anything else in your lives, just start talking about it.
[00:41:00] Brandon Ware: I feel so much more empathy when somebody comes to me and is, is vulnerable or is honest where it’s like, if that was the case and I came to you and I’m like, I’m so, I’m so uncomfortable having this conversation, but I want to bring it to your attention because it’s been eating at me for so long. I want to talk about the debt that I have, or I want to talk about the recent spending that I did.
[00:41:19] Brandon Ware: And, um, however you feel, however you feel about it, or I feel about it, then, you know, kind of conveying that to you immediately. I want to meet you where you are. I don’t, I don’t want to freak out. I want to be like, wow, I want to mirror how you’ve come to me emotionally. And I want to say, you know, it’s okay.
[00:41:35] Brandon Ware: We’re going to get through this. Like we’re, we’re going to work through and we’re going to find a solution.
[00:41:39] Jess O’Reilly: You just did three things in a potentially difficult conversation. Like you had that soft startup with, with vulnerability saying, you know what, this is tough for me. And then you. You reaffirmed your commitment, like, I want to make this work.
[00:41:52] Jess O’Reilly: And then you reassured me that it was going to be okay. And I think that if you can use that language, and maybe it feels cheesy to be like, use I statements or, you know, reassure your [00:42:00] partner, but it’s really meaningful in the heat of the moment, especially when you’re angry, especially when you’re triggered, especially when you’re talking about such personal.
[00:42:07] Jess O’Reilly: and intense topics. So I hope some of these questions, some of these prompts, some of the language we’ve shared will lead to more conversations about money because it is a hot button issue. I see relationships struggle and even deteriorate because of a lack of communication around money. It’s not oftentimes about just the money itself.
[00:42:27] Jess O’Reilly: It is about communicating and obviously some of these questions will pertain to your financial situation. Sometimes they won’t. I get that not everybody has the privilege to save or the privilege to make these choices because you’re just trying to get by, but the more you talk about the feelings you attach to money.
[00:42:42] Jess O’Reilly: the better off you are. So we’ll leave it at that. Tell you to, I don’t want to say it this way, go spend your money at Target with Blumi. Um, but if you do want to check out an affordable, good quality, safe silicone, medical grade silicone vibrator, go check out Blumi at Target and we’ll leave it there.
[00:43:02] Jess O’Reilly: Wherever you’re at. I hope you have a great one and you start some sort of meaningful conversation for happier, more fulfilling relationships today.
[00:43:11] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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Sex Q&A, Alvinophilia & Sex vs. Social Media
17 aug 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Sex vs. Social Media & The Surprising World of Belly Button Pleasure
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TL;DR – Sex vs. Social Media, and Alvinophilia
A Canadian study found nearly 1 in 10 young people would give up sex before social media, and 3% would trade a decade of life to keep scrolling. We explore what these stats say about tech, connection, and evolving pleasure priorities.
Instead of shaming screen time, we unpack the importance of inclusive, youth-informed conversations about digital life, intimacy, and pleasure.
Listener Q leads to a deep dive into belly button arousal (alvinophilia)—from food play to raspberries to tongue worship, the navel is an under-explored erogenous zone worth celebrating.
Tools to try: We-Vibe Tango X for precise stimulation and Nova 2 for full-body arousal paired with belly play.
For more, check out our guides on erogenous zones and subscribe to the Sex With Dr. Jess podcast for ongoing pleasure-based convos.
Would You Give Up Sex or Social Media?
A new Canadian study asked people between the ages of 16 and 30 whether they’d rather give up sex or social media—and nearly 9% chose to forgo sex.
In this podcast episode, we unpack this surprising data, reflect on our own scrolling habits (hint: Brandon’s feed is all dogs and wipeout videos), and dig into what it means to live in a world where nearly a third of people would rather give up restaurants than TikTok. The social media vs. sex debate may sound extreme, but it opens up important questions around connection, pleasure, and how tech is reshaping our relational landscapes.
What’s Behind These Choices?
More than half of respondents use social media for three or more hours a day. Nearly 10% said they’d rather go childless than give up their accounts. And the most jaw-dropping stat? 3% said they’d give up a decade of their life to keep scrolling.
We explore these findings with nuance and care, emphasizing that “social media isn’t all bad,” and that instead of shaming younger folks for their screen time, we need better conversations—ones that include them in the design and direction.
Belly Button Love: The Pleasure of the Navel
Listener question time – A young couple writes in with a fascinating dilemma: One partner has an outie belly button, and the other can’t get enough of it. They’re diving into belly button licking, raspberries, food play, and more.
This leads to a deep conversation about alvinophilia (navel arousal), self-consciousness, and reclaiming pleasure in parts of the body often excluded from erotic scripts. We reflect on our own experiences with belly play and offer practical suggestions for anyone curious to explore this often overlooked erogenous zone. If you’re curious about exploring erogenous zones, be sure to check out this post to learn more:
Erogenous Zones You May Have OverlookedExes, Erogenous Zones & Erotic MassageHow to Explore Belly Button Play
From using your tongue to whispering sweet nothings, the belly button can be a site of powerful erotic connection. Try:
Raspberries and breath playWarm oils or massage candles (opt for body-safe ingredients like this favourite)Vibration from a pinpoint toy like the We-Vibe TangoJewelry, adornments, or worship rituals
And if you’re looking to amplify the sensation, pair belly button stimulation with a vibe like the We-Vibe Nova 2 to build full-body arousal.
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Stay Curious, Stay Connected
Whether you’re navigating digital dependence, reclaiming body confidence, or just intrigued by your partner’s adorable outie, let curiosity be your guide. As always, we’re here to explore the messy, beautiful intersections of desire, identity, and culture—with nuance, pleasure, and a little humour too.
Subscribe to the SexWithDrJess podcast and newsletter for more real conversations, relationship strategies, product discounts and listener questions.

Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Sex Q&A, Alvinophilia & Sex vs. Social Media
Episode 330
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight today.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: We are going to be talking about social media. And sex. And you’ve got a question about belly button fetishes.
[00:00:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, really beautiful one. Okay, have you been on social media today?
[00:00:28] Brandon Ware: Of course I have. Yes.
[00:00:29] Jess O’Reilly: How soon after you wake up are you on social?
[00:00:33] Brandon Ware: Within the hour.
[00:00:34] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, that’s not that soon. Yes. As soon as I get my phone, I’m like, I’m super important. Gotta scroll instagram.
[00:00:41] Brandon Ware: I’m not interested in opening up right away because I know I also don’t feel good when I’m on social sites. Uh, if I’m on. Instagram, like, why am I there?
[00:00:51] Brandon Ware: If I’m there to, you know, to have a laugh or something like that, it’s great. But what, what am I, what’s the real issue? Like, why am I here?
[00:00:58] Jess O’Reilly: I think you’re there to, uh, look at dogs.
[00:01:00] Brandon Ware: Yes.
[00:01:00] Jess O’Reilly: Because your entire feed is dogs.
[00:01:02] Brandon Ware: If you look at my search feed, it’s all dogs. And it’s also people. Slipping and falling when they’re surfing and like snowboarding and stuff like that.
[00:01:09] Jess O’Reilly: Shall we psychoanalyze that now?
[00:01:10] Brandon Ware: Yeah, really.
[00:01:11] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so I bring, I bring up social media because this new Canadian study was published and in the study they looked at 750 participants between the ages of 16 and 30. So a little younger than us. Just a little. And they found that 8. 8% would rather give up sex than give up social media.
[00:01:29] Brandon Ware: Really?
[00:01:30] Jess O’Reilly: It’s such, that’s an easy one for me, sex or social media.
[00:01:32] Brandon Ware: You’d give it up.
[00:01:33] Jess O’Reilly: What?
[00:01:34] Brandon Ware: The sex.
[00:01:34] Jess O’Reilly: No, I wouldn’t. You. Would you, would you give up sex or social media? No. Like, it’s not even a thought for me.
[00:01:38] Brandon Ware: Not even a question. I’d, I’d give up social media in a heartbeat. I want to give up social media right now.
[00:01:43] Jess O’Reilly: I want to give up sex. No, just kidding. I got my fix. I’m good.
[00:01:47] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:01:48] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I’m on social media all the time. I definitely use it for work, but I use it for, I don’t even want to say pleasure. It’s just a distraction. for me, for the most part. I do a lot of learning on there. Like I [00:02:00] will say, I’m, I sit in admiration of a lot of accounts and do a lot of learning, but it’s mostly just kind of random scrolling, uh, doom scrolling, as they call it.
[00:02:08] Jess O’Reilly: So I would absolutely positively give up social media before sex, but. You know, I mean, still 8. 8% is a small minority, but a considerable minority. And I want to talk about this without judgment and kind of go through some of the other data from this study. So 30% of respondents would rather not eat at a restaurant for a year than give up social media.
[00:02:28] Brandon Ware: Okay. Okay, one in, one in three.
[00:02:31] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, I’d definitely rather eat at a restaurant, but it would be really weird to give up social media because it is the way we connect. I can’t tell you how many friends, colleagues I’ve grown close to because we’ve connected on social media, but I’m sure you find other ways.
[00:02:45] Jess O’Reilly: Like, I have a couple of very good friends who aren’t on social media. Yeah, so somehow we still stay connected, but I don’t know, you know, if I would meet as many people. So 29% say they would give up watching television.
[00:02:58] Brandon Ware: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. Is Netflix considered television?
[00:03:01] Jess O’Reilly: Yes, that’s considered television, I think.
[00:03:04] Jess O’Reilly: You know, 10 years ago, I would have been like, yeah, I’ll give up television. But now I carry my My little television around me. Your best, your best friend. Yeah, I’m watching the last season of Animal Kingdom right now. Well, the latest season, or the latest season I have access to. I might be far behind the others.
[00:03:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, more than half said that they use social media more than three hours a day. Some, 31%, said they check social media more than nine times daily. So I would say I probably check it more than nine times daily, but I definitely don’t use it three hours a day. I don’t have that kind of time.
[00:03:32] Brandon Ware: I have that reminder on my phone that tells me when I’ve hit my 15 minute max.
[00:03:37] Brandon Ware: And then I often hit ignore or remind me again in 15 minutes. But when I, when I get that reminder, I’m like, okay, I’m wasting my time.
[00:03:44] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. So it’s not like you and the alarm clocks news button that you love to hit.
[00:03:49] Brandon Ware: I do try and close any social apps once that reminder comes on. So it’s helpful. Okay.
[00:03:53] Jess O’Reilly: 11. 3%.
[00:03:55] Jess O’Reilly: This is the one that is most surprising to me. [00:04:00] 11. 3% say they prefer to have no. Face to face contact with anyone outside their household for one year than no social media.
[00:04:08] Brandon Ware: No, I don’t believe that. You don’t believe it? I don’t believe this.
[00:04:12] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe people don’t leave their house.
[00:04:14] Brandon Ware: I wonder what that would be like after a year.
[00:04:17] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, well, some people went through it.
[00:04:19] Brandon Ware: Agreed, agreed. Um, but to have no contact with anyone outside. Maybe you’ve got a huge household.
[00:04:25] Jess O’Reilly: No, no face to face. No face to face, okay. So you can still chat with people. Yeah, 9. 4% said they’d rather be unable to have children than… Ditch social media.
[00:04:37] Brandon Ware: What was the age?
[00:04:38] Brandon Ware: 16 to 30?
[00:04:39] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And interestingly, there was a nationally representative sample that I think we spoke about a couple of weeks ago that found that about 21% of young people actually don’t want to have kids. So the 9. 4%, you know, doesn’t surprise me that much.
[00:04:53] Brandon Ware: Yeah. When you think about 21% not wanting to have children and then this study being half that I don’t think there’s any big surprises, like you said.
[00:05:00] Jess O’Reilly: Here’s another one. 8. 9% said they’d rather give up a year of their life. Really? Right. And I think that maybe when you feel like you have so many years to live, like if you’re 17 and you think you’re going to live till 95, you think, oh, what’s 94 to 95? I definitely don’t think that way because I want my life to go on and on.
[00:05:17] Jess O’Reilly: Here, here’s a shocker. 5% said they’d forfeit five years of their life and 3% said they’d give up a decade.
[00:05:25] Brandon Ware: Really? This is fascinating. I can’t imagine giving up a decade or even five years. One year. I wouldn’t. If you hear, do it to me. No, I wouldn’t give, I wouldn’t give up sex. I wouldn’t give up face to face contact with anybody.
[00:05:39] Brandon Ware: I wouldn’t, I definitely wouldn’t give up a year. Forget three or five, uh, sorry, five years or a decade. Um, anything else in there that my, what are my options here? What else?
[00:05:49] Jess O’Reilly: You know, it’s interesting because you know, we can’t just say, one thing leads to another, but I was thinking about the fact that so many people I talked to don’t want to get old or they don’t want to live until they’re old.
[00:05:59] Jess O’Reilly: You know, they have this [00:06:00] idea that, you know, being old might mean a loss of capacity, whether it be physical or mental or otherwise. And I think because I am around old people who are thriving, like I think about my auntie who’s 76, my uncle who’s 76, and I’m like, they’re living their Best lives
[00:06:17] Brandon Ware: we just I had a conversation last night with the parent of one of our neighbors.
[00:06:21] Brandon Ware: She’s 82 She just flew here from Australia. And do you know we were just chatting. So she does Pilates She can hold the two minute plank piece of cake. She’s like I can I can hold a plank for two minutes. She does it
[00:06:32] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, so I know what you’re talking about. I had no clue. She was in her 80s
[00:06:35] Brandon Ware: Yeah
[00:06:35] Jess O’Reilly: These role models inspire me and I do think that when you’re around And the older you get the more you’re around older people, right?
[00:06:41] Jess O’Reilly: Like I have Friends who are young and friends who are older and our parents are getting older and so we see more of that So I guess 80 doesn’t sound as scary as it might have when we were younger
[00:06:52] Brandon Ware: I saw something the other day that said 120 is the new 80.
[00:06:55] Jess O’Reilly: I hope so, man I want to live. Anyhow, just something to think about when we think about you know 8.
[00:07:00] Jess O’Reilly: 8% of people being willing to give up sex rather than social media now that that’s also fine If you’re not really that into sex if the sex isn’t that good and I think that social media gets painted as all bad because there was another piece out of this study that found that the earlier you have a device, so whether you’re given a phone at 8 versus say 14, the lower your positive mental health outcomes.
[00:07:24] Jess O’Reilly: So we do need to look at how social media is adversely affecting us. We definitely need to set, set limits like you use the 15 minute rule on your phone. I hide accounts or unfollow accounts that I find distress me or activate me or trigger me. But I, I also I always worry that one generation is saying to the next generation, the new thing that you’re into is bad.
[00:07:46] Jess O’Reilly: Like, I think back to like Footloose and dancing. Dancing is bad. Dating yourself there. Dancing is bad. I, yeah, I only saw it a few years ago, actually. When was Footloose out? It was in the early 80s. Oh, okay. So yeah, I wasn’t obviously watching it at that time, [00:08:00] but social media is not all bad. And I think what we need And the reason I was drawn to this study, I think what we need is more education, more context, more open discussions that don’t polarize but actually listen to young people and what the draw of social media is.
[00:08:15] Jess O’Reilly: And this aligns with my experience in sex ed. So for those of you who don’t know, I was a high school teacher and that’s how I found myself in this field. And I think with young folks, and especially with generational sharings and learnings, if you just judge and say like, you young people bad, old people good, I think we lose them.
[00:08:30] Jess O’Reilly: So I think these conversations need to be centered on the folks who are most affected, driven by them, maybe facilitated by them, as opposed to, I always think about outsiders studying others, right? So, when I, we think about different areas of our identity, we talk about nothing about us without us, I think we need to really think about that in terms of age and who is conducting these studies and how they’re framing them.
[00:08:53] Jess O’Reilly: Because I, I think there’s so much positive to take from social media, but we are also seeing these potentially. Adverse outcomes and not all of these are adverse, right? Like maybe it’s no big deal to not go to a restaurant. We’re very spoiled that we even get to go to restaurants. Maybe for many people, sex isn’t a big deal.
[00:09:08] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s also okay. You decide what sex means to you. Now, face to face contact, listen, I’m supposed to not judge, but I definitely have some worries around that. But I also know on top and talking to parents and talking to some kind of older teens, early twenties, there are a lot of people who aren’t feeling so comfortable with face to face contact.
[00:09:25] Jess O’Reilly: You know, they had three years or maybe not. Full three years, but a couple years of learning from home that shifted feelings around being around people face to face anxieties And you know, I’m hearing about so many people who sent their kids off to college for year one college and they came home They were like I can’t do this.
[00:09:43] Jess O’Reilly: This isn’t for me I want to be back in my home in my safety zone with my family
[00:09:47] Brandon Ware: But you also said that that study, it was a contact, physical contact outside of the home. So maybe their, their household, they’re very close. They’re very tight. They have the connections that they need there that they don’t need to get that fulfillment [00:10:00] outside of the home.
[00:10:00] Brandon Ware: So I could see how you can still communicate with people, have a laugh. Like I, I do that with people around the world where, you know, somebody is in Jamaica and I’m sending them a video that. Just made me laugh. And I know that it’s going to make them laugh too. So I have that connection. I can have that conversation and I’m still getting, you know, perhaps you’re still getting the physical contact, a connection with people in their household.
[00:10:16] Brandon Ware: So that’s worth considering. And also, as you said, as I’ve gotten older, I realized that more and more people are less receptive to the ideas of what younger people have. And I have to catch myself and I’m like, you know what? You’ve got a great idea. I want to be receptive. I want to be open to that because I do find a lot of my friends and a lot of people that I talk to is just I’m older, I’m set in my ways and they, they kind of gravitate towards that as something like a badge of honor.
[00:10:40] Brandon Ware: Well, I know better and this and that. Do you though? Because innovation, new ideas, great ways to communicate. People are doing that and they’re also younger generations are thriving. Like we’re looking and we’re being so critical, but a lot of them are changing the world. And I want to be receptive to that when I’m in my forties, fifties, sixties, eighties,
[00:11:02] Jess O’Reilly: nineties, because I,
[00:11:03] Brandon Ware: well, no, I’m going to skip over seventies, but you know what I want those, I want younger generations to also want to be around me.
[00:11:11] Brandon Ware: When I’m older, and I think if you’re set in your ways, at least what I perceive, the people that I know that are very stubborn and are older, I’m, I don’t want to be around them. I don’t.
[00:11:21] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I look at who we’re really attracted to being around and my auntie and my uncle who are in their mid seventies getting into their late seventies are in our inner circle.
[00:11:31] Jess O’Reilly: Like they’re in our top 10 of people that we will go out of our way to spend time with and there’s, there’s a reason for that. One thing I’m really admiring and I’m getting off topic, we got to get to the belly button, is that older generations are so open to learning in both directions. It’s not just imparting knowledge on younger people, but I’m seeing that.
[00:11:49] Jess O’Reilly: in one of, in my family where there’s three generations and they’re all learning from one another and growing and I think that’s a really exciting thing. So okay, social media, not all bad, but [00:12:00] definitely a surprising stat and I’m going to go put out a survey, a poll on Instagram to find out what you would give up.
[00:12:07] Jess O’Reilly: Ooh. Instead of social media. Love it. Get those up there. Um, before we get started into the listener question, I want to shout out a partner brand. And this is a brand that I’m involved with as an investor on the investment side. And that brand is Blumi. B L O O M I. So Blumi not so long ago launched and closed a fundraising round on WeFunder.
[00:12:29] Jess O’Reilly: And it caught my attention because it’s a sexologist led brand, it’s a Latina founded brand. And before this latest round, they had already raised 1. 5 million, um, from angels and VCs. So I think if I’m not… I think if I read the statements correctly, they’re out over 2 million rays now, but more importantly, and what attracted me to the brand is they have some really standout features.
[00:12:49] Jess O’Reilly: So they established the industry’s first clean standard for intimacy products in the US. So their lubricants are 510k cleared by the FDA. They’re one of the few organic clean lubricants in the country. Their toys are made with medical grade silicone, not silicone, not just, you know, body safe silicone, which is more of an ambiguous term that doesn’t necessarily.
[00:13:11] Jess O’Reilly: Disclose all the materials. Uh, they make sustainable, really high quality products at a very accessible price point. Their products are ergonomic and they’re designed with accessibility in mind, with consideration of various hand sizes and body sizes and abilities and flexibilities. They also prioritize sustainability and they have eco friendly packaging.
[00:13:32] Jess O’Reilly: I know it’s made from recyclable sugar cane, recyclable plastic, treeless cartons that are. Compostable, compostable, and okay, so they’re available at Target, which is really exciting. So over a thousand stores, they’re the first Latina founded brand in Target’s sexual wellness aisle. So please do check them out, Bloomy.
[00:13:52] Jess O’Reilly: They’ve built a collaborative community and an education site online at thebloomy. com. And so if you’re off to [00:14:00] Target, please check them out, pick them up in the sexual wellness aisle. I was looking online this morning at Target’s site. And they’re Blumi products. So my pick is the Blumi massage, waterproof and rechargeable vibrator.
[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s round, like a, sort of like a computer mouse and a little bit flat. And, but obviously, you know, not totally flat and it’s smooth and it’s silky and it’s around 35. Okay. Yeah. So it’s reasonable. Yeah. And when I looked this morning, Target had a promo on for 20% off for pickup of items and same day delivery.
[00:14:31] Jess O’Reilly: So please do check them out. And their website, if you want to go directly, is the. Again, it’s B L O O M I, but check them out at Target because that’s exciting news and I’m just excited to see how they grow.
[00:14:44] Brandon Ware: Great company to get behind too, because I think the percentage of, uh, women, women led VC startups that get funding is, is something abysmal.
[00:14:52] Brandon Ware: It’s like 2% or something.
[00:14:54] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and especially for a woman of color.
[00:14:56] Brandon Ware: For them to be where they are is a success story in itself, but also, you know, listen, hope that they continue to thrive and do well. They’re doing awesome stuff.
[00:15:04] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. I’m really, really excited. And I like their social content. They’ve had a whole bunch of really good messaging that’s gone viral.
[00:15:10] Jess O’Reilly: So yeah, cool story. Keep an eye on them. Bloomy. And, uh, all right, let’s dive into. Belly Buttons. I love this. Okay, I’m gonna read what they wrote in. Me and my partner, fiancÃ©, future wife, need your advice. We need your help, tips, info, opinions, thoughts. Ooh, lots of things. All right. We’re both in our early 20s and basically my partner has this weird obsession.
[00:15:32] Jess O’Reilly: Fetish, kink, for my outie belly button, where my belly button sticks out and she wants to do a lot of things all over it. So, play with it in different ways, with her tongue, by licking my belly button. She wants to do raspberries or belly farts all over it, uh, blowing raspberries to make that farting noise.
[00:15:51] Jess O’Reilly: She wants to suck on my outie belly button. bite, nibble playfully. She wants to eat and lick whipped cream, honey, [00:16:00] chocolate, chocolate sauce, ice cream out of it like a dessert. And I’m really self conscious over my outie belly button as well because I’m also really ticklish and self conscious about having an outie in general.
[00:16:11] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know why I have an outie and that ticklish sensation. Sorry, it’s a little, it’s a long hair. That ticklish sensitive belly sensation is a general experience for me. But I want, I want to give things a go and go down the road of belly button play worship fetishes to see if I love or like the feeling of my belly being teased or blown on or played with and licked and sucked.
[00:16:35] Jess O’Reilly: And I want to know what things and ways I can play with her belly button, which is an innie. And I want to know how I can make raspberries. Or the best sound on her belly button, and I want to know how to lick her innie.
[00:16:49] Brandon Ware: I have a question right off the bat. Given her kink, her fetish, what they had described about her desire for her love for this belly button, did they know, did she know before that he had this?
[00:17:03] Brandon Ware: Outie because imagine she falls in love or she she’s attracted to him and then all of a sudden Whip up goes the t shirt and it’s like super turned on
[00:17:12] Jess O’Reilly: fireworks,
[00:17:13] Brandon Ware: right?
[00:17:13] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Well, I don’t think it goes in your dating profile
[00:17:16] Brandon Ware: No, well, that’s what I mean. It’s like hey, I’m Brandon. I’ve also got an outie
[00:17:19] Jess O’Reilly: But if we all met topless that would help true True.
[00:17:23] Jess O’Reilly: This is why I’m against shirts. You’re also against pants. I hate pants. You know I don’t like, I want pants banned. Um, so thank you so much for sharing this and you know you said it’s, it’s a weird thing but it doesn’t sound weird at all. To me it sounds fun and exciting and also really common. So I was looking at how common a belly button fetish is and In 2012, apparently it was the second most common fetish search, according to Google, second to the heel fetish.
[00:17:49] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t see it on the top ten list for 2023, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t still searching on other sites like Pornhub and other tube sites and making a ton of requests. I was talking to a couple of [00:18:00] performers on some webcams and they get a ton of requests around the belly button and there’s a name for arousal related to the navel and that’s alvinophilia.
[00:18:08] Jess O’Reilly: Like Alvin and the Chipmunks and then Ophelia. And there are so many theories as to why the navel is such a source of erotic fascination and pleasure. So we’ve got the simple fact that there’s this proximity to the genitals without the stress and the pressure. of a visible or tactile response, right?
[00:18:28] Jess O’Reilly: Like the genitals are expected to respond in a certain way. It’s not a fair expectation, but it is a common sociocultural expectation that there’s going to be an erection or lubrication. And so a lot of us will get in our head about that. And so we Derive more pleasure from other body parts, but we don’t have that same pressure.
[00:18:46] Jess O’Reilly: So there’s that practical positioning and the dense nerve endings in the region. And so many people will actually say that they experienced sensations in their clitoris through the belly button, which might be attributable to a nerve pathway that connects it to the spine through the pelvic region. So there’s just the.
[00:19:03] Jess O’Reilly: the proximity, the excitement of it. There’s also this primal piece, right? The belly button is the giver of life. We have this primal attraction to early experiences and the body’s, I think, reproductive and giving capacity because this is the spot that tethered you to your bearer. So there’s something really powerful, I think, about life’s origins here.
[00:19:24] Jess O’Reilly: And from the, I think the visual piece, cause you know, you’re saying that she’s attracted to your outie. I think the individual variation of belly buttons, right? So innies, outies, flat ones, long ones, wide ones, oblong ones, ring like ones. Like I think about all the people whose belly buttons I see regularly.
[00:19:42] Jess O’Reilly: So it’s usually, you know, people we hang out with in a hot. hot location when we’re on the, on the water. And it is fascinating how different, how unique belly buttons are, how much they vary even among family and siblings. And so not that you’re, you know, aroused by a sibling’s belly button, but what I’m [00:20:00] saying is just that unique variation, like a fingerprint, like eyes, like lips, uh, like the genitals.
[00:20:05] Brandon Ware: What about the, like the sensitivity and the vulnerability of that whole region? Like, I think I don’t enjoy having my abdomen touched, but I mean, there’s other layers to that, but I’m just thinking about my abdomen is sensitive. Like my, my midriff.
[00:20:21] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. But yeah, you don’t like that or your touch. Let’s talk about that.
[00:20:23] Brandon Ware: Let’s do it.
[00:20:25] Jess O’Reilly: So why?
[00:20:25] Brandon Ware: I think I’m self conscious. I think there’s an element of, of, you know, yeah, I’m self conscious. I, I think that’s probably the biggest one. Yeah.
[00:20:34] Jess O’Reilly: I like your belly button. Why, thank you. I like to put things in your belly button, you know. Would you like the raspberry in my belly button?
[00:20:39] Jess O’Reilly: Not so much raspberry for me personally, but if you’re into that, that’s cool too to me. There’s some power in. Subversion. And when we think about subversion, I think about the fact that there’s so much shame attached to our bellies. Right? So the active or the experience of eroticizing and taking pleasure in an area that’s often hidden, that’s often in an unnatural, uncomfortable, sucked in state because of near impossible beauty standards.
[00:21:07] Jess O’Reilly: I think there’s something Very exciting about that, right? And when we think about the rarity of outies or protruding belly buttons, which, so apparently they account for about 10% of belly buttons.
[00:21:18] Brandon Ware: I’m glad you had that statistic. Cause I wanted to ask you that question. I was like, what percentage of people have an outie?
[00:21:23] Jess O’Reilly: So it’s 10%. I had to go look that up. Yeah. It can be very exciting. And. You know, it’s interesting because in your case, for this person, if you’re feeling like your body or your belly or your outie are being fetishized, you have to decide kind of what works for you because you mentioned that you’re self conscious about it.
[00:21:38] Jess O’Reilly: So, I want to say, if at any point you’re feeling like, no, I’m not into this or I’m not ready to explore that side, that’s okay, too. If you want to do some things and not others, that’s fine. You don’t have to do everything your partner wants, but because you’re asking about options, and you listed a whole bunch, it sounds like you’re definitely open to it at times.
[00:21:54] Jess O’Reilly: So I think you may want to… Embrace that or take comfort in the fact that pleasure can offset [00:22:00] that self consciousness, right? The eroticization of discomfort can be soothing and healing and therapeutic, both temporarily and in the long run. Like, so if we go back to your belly, I love touching your stomach.
[00:22:13] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm. I love it. Yeah, it’s warm. I like your belly button. I always, you notice, I always put my hands there. And quite frankly, you’ve told me not to.
[00:22:21] Brandon Ware: I’ve asked you not to, but I think if I were to kind of embrace that, the, you know, the comfort of just having that space touch it, as I had mentioned, it’s really sensitive, like to light touch.
[00:22:32] Brandon Ware: I find it. And it can be very arousing.
[00:22:34] Jess O’Reilly: I think when you, I don’t want to speak for you when you lie on your back, you’re more comfortable than if I just come up to you from behind when you’re standing. Is that true?
[00:22:42] Brandon Ware: I’m not sure. I know what you mean. What do you mean when? So I’m yeah. I mean, if I’m lying on my.
[00:22:46] Brandon Ware: back and then you just approach and touch my abdomen, is that what you mean?
[00:22:49] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, like if I’m touching it, you never push me away, but if, if during, during like sex play, right? But during the day, I notice you kind of recoil when I touch you.
[00:23:00] Brandon Ware: You make it sound so nice. No, uh, I would agree. I don’t think it bothers me as much when I’m lying on my back.
[00:23:06] Brandon Ware: And then, yeah, if you come and approach me then.
[00:23:09] Jess O’Reilly: And also maybe because you’re kind of more aroused.
[00:23:13] Brandon Ware: And on the flip side, you really enjoy having your. Like when I touch your abdomen.
[00:23:17] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, so I like my stomach. And I have a really long belly button. Yes, you do. There could be like a little fish living in there or something.
[00:23:24] Jess O’Reilly: Um, I don’t know why I had to go there. But I feel like the stomach is a spot that nobody else touches. You know, somebody can put their hand on my shoulder. You know, when you play sports, somebody might. Touch your leg, but nobody ever touches your stomach. Rarely. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s intimate. It’s kind of like special.
[00:23:43] Jess O’Reilly: It’s unique. I definitely feel violated. When people kind of put, you know, when sometimes people want to harass you basically, and they’ll, people you barely know, put their hands around your race, your waist, in this sort of power move.
[00:23:55] Brandon Ware: Uh, I definitely see it as a power move.
[00:23:57] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. And so I definitely [00:24:00] feel that it’s a vulnerable area.
[00:24:01] Jess O’Reilly: It’s a personal area. And of course, there’s huge individual variation in that. Not everybody feels that way. But there is the taboo nature we could talk about as well, like especially in Western cultures that hide. the midriff and even enact dress codes against midriff exposure. There’s other cultures where the midriff is often more often exposed, but in Western culture, oftentimes it’s hidden.
[00:24:25] Jess O’Reilly: And so that taboo element can also be very exciting. But I want to go to you for your stomach and this person, because it sounds like there’s a little bit of, you know, conflicting experience here where you want to derive the pleasure but also you’ve always felt self conscious and I think it’s important to just know that without pressure, whenever you derive any sort of pleasure from a body part or a message or an experience that was previously negative or shameful or draining, the response can be so much more intense and I want to bring something up and I’m, I’m thinking about a case that I worked with around breasts where one partner was into their partner’s breasts and the other wasn’t.
[00:25:07] Jess O’Reilly: So this was a discordant dynamic in terms of attraction. So one partner said she adored her partner’s breasts. They were her favorite thing about her partner. But the partner, person number two, explained that while they appreciated the adoration and the attraction, their breasts actually felt discordant with their identity.
[00:25:24] Jess O’Reilly: So even though they could sometimes get pleasure from them, they actually didn’t like them on their body. And so it was this weird feeling where their partner really liked them and they had this conversation and I’m privileged to have been there. And when they came to this learning, this realization together, The first partner, the one who adored their partner’s breasts was so loving and caring and said, I remember her saying something along the lines of, you know, as much as I adore your breasts, I appreciate that discordance and how it affects your pleasure.
[00:25:51] Jess O’Reilly: And they had this amazing conversation around how to enjoy and adore and play and create pleasure in light of the discordance. And I guess the brief summary is in the [00:26:00] end, what they really learned was that sometimes partner number two. was in the mood to make their breasts a part of their sex play and sometimes they weren’t.
[00:26:06] Jess O’Reilly: So the two of them just had to check in to see what kind of day or what kind of interaction it was going to be. And this isn’t an outcome that’s generalizable, but I love and appreciate this outcome and getting to witness it because it really speaks to the fact that there are no answers. There’s no universal answers and what you want.
[00:26:24] Jess O’Reilly: Especially as it pertains to your body can change from day to day. So you need to be with a partner or partners who are responsive to that and honor that as an opportunity for understanding and deeper pleasure and connection rather than seeing it as a deficit. And to me, this is such a big, you know, a reminder that what we want changes from day to day.
[00:26:43] Jess O’Reilly: So as you explore this belly button pleasure or fetish or however you, however you want to frame it, know that. What you love one day may not be what you love the next. And um, oh, one other thing I wanted to mention. I think there’s also an evolutionary attraction to orifices and protrusions on our bodies.
[00:27:02] Jess O’Reilly: I think, because when we think of sex, we often think of it as penetrative. So this little space or this little bump, right? And the center of, center of your body can be so fascinating and so exciting.
[00:27:12] Brandon Ware: I would agree. I mean, Yeah, I would agree.
[00:27:15] Jess O’Reilly: So I think what we can do now is talk a little bit about some of the ways you can explore this belly button pleasure.
[00:27:21] Jess O’Reilly: And to me, the body is your unlimited wonderland, right? You already mentioned a whole bunch of ways, including raspberries and licking. And I wish I could tell you how to make the biggest raspberry. I don’t, I don’t have the expertise on that, but we could start with the sensual, right? So there’s sensual play where it’s maybe tickling with your tongue or your fingertips or your nipple.
[00:27:41] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe there’s some sucking. Around the area, in the area, um, on its own or with an added liquid, or drink, or food. Like, I love the idea of wine out of the belly button. To me, there’s something so erotic and sensual about that.
[00:27:54] Brandon Ware: I immediately think of the mess. Ha ha.
[00:27:58] Jess O’Reilly: Get a no more wet spot [00:28:00] blanket. There could be suction and you can create suction in so many ways, right?
[00:28:04] Jess O’Reilly: So you could put your palm over there, any belly button, with some pressure to create a bit of a vacuum, right, or you can use a flat toy to do the same. I know people who do cupping in the area, right, with your hand or a cupping device. You could play with teasing and deprivation. the sounds, right? You’ve got slurping, sucking, raspberries, vibing, like moaning, all of that.
[00:28:27] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe even tuning into the sounds their stomach makes. I know there are people who are turned on by a groaning, grumbly stomach.
[00:28:34] Brandon Ware: Well, they’d be super turned on by me because my stomach is always making noise.
[00:28:38] Jess O’Reilly: Because you forget to eat. Yes, I do forget to eat. There’s also the visual elements. Some people just like to look, right?
[00:28:44] Jess O’Reilly: You could tune into it during sex play. It could be the mere sight of being flashed. You can do the talk side of the sensual, right? Talking about how much you like it, why you like it, what you want to do. You can do a bunch of rolling with your tongue around, inside, over, and anything you can, almost anything you do an innie, you can do to an outie, right?
[00:29:04] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, there’s some small differences, but there’s so much you can play with there.
[00:29:08] Brandon Ware: I was also thinking that Maybe before any of this, there could also be, you know, he could just fantasize on his own and determine whether or not he. appreciates or he likes any of this. I mean, I’ve noticed that recently, even myself.
[00:29:19] Brandon Ware: It’s like, start to, you know, think of different fantasies to see like, how do I respond to that? Do I like it? Do I not like it? Because if, if he’s nervous about it, then it’s a great way to maybe just consider what you do and don’t like before you jump in.
[00:29:30] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. I think that’s a great suggestion and I won’t make you share it, but you shared fantasy the other day that I think you were surprised you liked.
[00:29:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I was, I’m not going to get into the details right now, but I also think that. I was lying in bed, couldn’t sleep. I was sleeping. You were sleeping, so I didn’t bother you.
[00:29:46] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my God. Thank God. I was so tired that night.
[00:29:48] Brandon Ware: That’s how, that’s how we do. Um, but I, I was like, yeah, I’m just going to kind of think about these things.
[00:29:54] Brandon Ware: And, and I thought to myself, I could see mentally, I was pushing this thought away. And then I was like, [00:30:00] you know what, I’m going to lean into it a little bit. And, and then when I did, I was like, okay, you know what? I could see myself potentially liking it, even if it’s only in fantasy. Even if it’s not in real life, but at least it gives me an opportunity to, to have a conversation with you about it after, which I did, and it was, and you know what, and it, and whether anything comes of it, who knows, but it was just, I, I, I think my willingness to think about it really kind of just opens new doors and new pathways to new opportunity, new pleasure, new ideas, new conversations, which I thought was great.
[00:30:33] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, no, that’s a great point too. Thank you. Do it on your own first and see how you feel about it with no pressure, right? Some of these things you’ll love, some of them you won’t. I was thinking also about torture. There’s so much torture play with all body parts, but with the belly button, you’ve got like heat play, you’ve got ice play, you can play with different pressures and penetration.
[00:30:52] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, some people will play with piercing play. So a little bit of tugging and pressure and cooling and making sure that you’re always prioritizing safety, right? Like cleaning and drying the area. Many people are into belly button worship. So, that might involve buying jewels, or piercings, or chains to adorn the belly button area.
[00:31:11] Jess O’Reilly: It might be worship in the context of a dominance and submission role, like anything you can do in BDSM. You can expand to any part of your body. I mentioned briefly deprivation, but there can be something really fun. Fun about this hot act that you are craving or your partner is craving, like the raspberries, right?
[00:31:30] Jess O’Reilly: If you move into a dominant role where you disallow that for some time, and then it can be more powerful when it finally arrives. Or you can do edging play where it’s like a little raspberry is allowed or a raspberry is allowed in the area, but not directly over it. So there’s Oh, so much fun. You can have.
[00:31:45] Jess O’Reilly: I, I am just so glad you wrote in, I think about all the different. Toys and accoutrements you can use, like filling it up with. You’re having fun here, aren’t you? Yeah, I like, I like it a lot, like decorating it. I’m using a pointy tip of a vibe, like I was thinking about the WeVibe Tango [00:32:00] X would go really well in there.
[00:32:02] Jess O’Reilly: Also Bloomy, they have a longer G spot vibe, like a curved one that’s also available, available at Target, and it would fit right over the opening. Right. And kind of fill it up there. And you could probably feel a bit of suction and you could use suction toys over it. Oh, yeah. All of the womanizer products
[00:32:20] Brandon Ware: or be a three hour podcast here.
[00:32:23] Jess O’Reilly: Do you want me to stop? No, no, I’m just laughing and pinwheels, you know, the pinwheels with the sharp edges that you roll over it or massage candles or East stems for that electronic play. And then, of course, the practicality of any sort of co stimulation, meaning anything that you’re already doing sexually that feels so good, just adding in a little bit of belly button play, whether it’s physical stimulation, or some of the talk around it, or some of the worship, or the visual elements, or the sound, the audio elements.
[00:32:53] Jess O’Reilly: I think there’s just so much opportunity here. So, you know, the short form is this is amazing. Explore it in however you feel works for you. Be open to the fact that how you feel about an area that you’re self conscious or have been previously self conscious of may shift over time. And hopefully in the long run, it helps to assuage some of the self consciousness.
[00:33:15] Jess O’Reilly: Because of course, when there’s a minority occurrence of something in our bodies, we feel self conscious about it. It’s pretty common, even though there’s no reason to feel self conscious because 10% of the population is still a whole lot of people in this busy, busy planet. So thank you so much for writing in and sharing and letting me talk about belly buttons because that was really fun for me.
[00:33:36] Jess O’Reilly: And thanks for. Sharing babe about your stomach. I think that’s like a conversation. We need to take offline
[00:33:41] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing the results of your your polls your surveys about the sex and social media
[00:33:48] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, please follow me on Instagram sex with dr. Jess. You can even follow Brandon.
[00:33:52] Jess O’Reilly: I’ll I’ll link to him Your stuff is more more exciting I don’t know. You share it. So we’re, we’re good. Sex with Dr. Jess on Instagram. Thank
[00:34:00] you to Bloomi for all the amazing work they’re doing. Please do go look for Bloomi in Target and support this amazing brand that’s doing really cool work in the sexual wellness field.
[00:34:11] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks, babe.
[00:34:12] Brandon Ware: Thank you.
[00:34:12] Jess O’Reilly: Thanks to the person who wrote in and wherever you’re at, folks. I hope you have a great one.
[00:34:19] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with dr. Jess podcast improve your sex life improve your life
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Jess & Brandon’s Latest Argument. And A 7-Minute Solution
11 aug 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Looking for a quick exercise to offset the potentially harmful effects of conflict?
Jess & Brandon explore a 7-minute solution to support “cognitive reappraisal” as they share the details of their latest fight: the Popsicle incident.
In one study, three simple 7-minute writing interventions over the course of a year were shown to improve relationship quality in newlyweds and long-term couples alike. Have a listen to learn more and give it a try yourself to improve your relationship in just 21 minutes per year.
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Jess & Brandon’s Latest Argument. And A 7-Minute Solution
Episode 329
[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Today we’re going to be diving into an exercise that just brought to my attention and asked us or asked me to define or what would you say? Write out, explain our most recent argument.
[00:00:29] Jess O’Reilly: Yes, from a neutral perspective. So we’re going to try an exercise that has been shown to lead to happier relationships, and it relates to conflict and how we view it. And so basically, Brendan and I wrote out Why are you laughing? How we view because honestly, I can’t even finish a sentence because we had to describe our most recent conflict from a neutral perspective, and I think we sound ridiculous.
[00:00:55] Jess O’Reilly: Like speed bags. It’s about popsicles. I was going to say that. The conflict is about, it’s about chill pops.
[00:01:00] Brandon Ware: My headline for the, for this was the popsicle fight.
[00:01:04] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my gosh.
[00:01:04] Brandon Ware: I’m like, oh man.
[00:01:06] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, let me give you a bit of background on this exercise. So, you know, it comes from this study where researchers from four different universities were working with 120 couples over the course of two years.
[00:01:14] Jess O’Reilly: So some of these couples were newlyweds and some had been married for years. And during the first year of the study, all participants, all couples were assigned to write about the most significant marital conflict they had experienced in the previous four months. So they did this three times a year, and they were also collecting info on, you know, their relationship overall.
[00:01:34] Jess O’Reilly: So intimacy, trust, passion, commitment, satisfaction, and love. So that’s what they did in the first year. They, three times a year, they wrote about their most significant marital conflict. After year one, the whole group was divided in two. So one group, the control group, kept doing the same activity that they did in the first year, wrote about their most significant conflict.
[00:01:52] Jess O’Reilly: But the second group, did an additional writing activity that took around seven minutes on average. And so the quote,
[00:02:00] each partner wrote about the conflict from the perspective of an impartial observer who wants the best for both partners. So they did this three times a year and apparently it made a really significant difference.
[00:02:12] Jess O’Reilly: Just writing about the conflict from a neutral perspective, from the perspective of somebody who wants. both parties to come out on top as a team. And with just three seven minute writing exercises or interventions, they saw really interesting results. And so I’ll quote to you from the lead author and psychology prof, Eli Finkel.
[00:02:33] Jess O’Reilly: So for couples in the control group, consistent with several previous studies, unfortunately, marital quality declined over the two year period. Likewise, the same measures fell among spouses in the intervention condition during the first year of the study before the additional writing assignment began.
[00:02:50] Jess O’Reilly: So basically both groups saw a decline in quality of relationship over the first year, which is typical. But then in year two, the decline stop for the couples who were doing the additional writing intervention. So levels of mutual happiness and satisfaction remained where they were at the end of the first year, and this was true regardless of how long they had been married.
[00:03:13] Jess O’Reilly: And they also reported that the couples who had done the extra writing intervention also found their fights to be significantly less distressing. So seeing things from a neutral perspective shifted the way they viewed Conflict. And it’s interesting because I think about this often when we’re fighting.
[00:03:28] Jess O’Reilly: I always think, okay, how am I behaving? Would I be okay with my behavior with my language with my tone with the way i’m treating you? Would I be embarrassed if someone else was watching or listening?
[00:03:39] Brandon Ware: That’s what I always think. I always think about a third person sitting in observing and then Being able to comment after about, Hey, Brandon, do you want to reflect back on how you said that or what you said?
[00:03:49] Brandon Ware: But I want to just highlight before we continue that this was not the most significant argument. When we go to the do do popsicle fight.
[00:03:57] Jess O’Reilly: Oh my god, I’m nervous to [00:04:00] go over because I think we’re going to look like idiots. But just quickly, this intervention, so this writing intervention is referred to, you know, it’s a form of cognitive reappraisal.
[00:04:07] Jess O’Reilly: So when we think about things differently, it can change our emotional response. in the moment or after and it changes the way we frame the meaning of the conflict or the incident or what happened and that helps it and it just helps to use a more neutral lens and so I’m going to note that in the study it wasn’t about sharing each perspective it wasn’t like I would come to Brandon with what I wrote down and he would come to me with what he wrote down but I do think that could be helpful.
[00:04:35] Jess O’Reilly: And we do resolve a lot of our issues in writing.
[00:04:40] Brandon Ware: I would agree. And sometimes via text or WhatsApp.
[00:04:43] Jess O’Reilly: Which I know people don’t like. You’ll hear a lot of therapists, a lot of experts say text lacks the tone, the nuance, the body language, the facial expressions. But I do think it partly has to do with me being so literal that seeing things in writing really helps me to be more neutral.
[00:05:01] Brandon Ware: And for me, putting things in writings help, helps me remember things because I get flooded during arguments and I can’t remember things that I’ve said or things that I’ve heard. So when I can look back in writing, it’s a great way for me to be able to reflect on things and, and it also makes me think about the things I’m putting in writing before I send them.
[00:05:18] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. Do you wanna continue procrastinating or do we wanna share our ridiculous pop fight? .
[00:05:23] Brandon Ware: Here we go. I, I’m ready to go. But you, you, you,
[00:05:25] Jess O’Reilly: do you wanna go first?
[00:05:26] Brandon Ware: You read first.
[00:05:26] Jess O’Reilly: Do you wanna rock, paper, scissors?
[00:05:28] Brandon Ware: All right, let’s rock. Paper. Scissors. Ready?
[00:05:29] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. 1, 2, 3. Good old rock. Nothing beat rock.
[00:05:33] Brandon Ware: Nothing beats rock.
[00:05:34] Jess O’Reilly: I threw a rock. He threw a come on a scissor. So, Scissors is first. Don’t judge us.
[00:05:42] Brandon Ware: The Popsicle Fight by Brandon Ware. Okay, here we go. Jess asked Brandon to pick up Popsicles instructions about the pickup. The instructions included the cost of the Popsicles, the location, the number of Popsicles, and where to deliver them.
[00:05:56] Brandon Ware: I’m laughing at myself. You can laugh at me too. Send me a message. Brandon went to the [00:06:00] pickup location and when he arrived, the price that was quoted was different from what he thought. thought he understood from Jessica. Brandon admitted that although he heard Jessica’s quote about the price of the popsicles, he didn’t pay attention to the fact that this amount was an approximate amount based on a conversion rate that Jess had used on, uh, using the current exchange rate.
[00:06:18] Brandon Ware: When Brandon was quoted the amount, I don’t know why I have to emphasize certain words, to purchase the popsicles, the amount. Differed from what Jess had mentioned, and rather than taking the initiative and finding a solution, he called Jess to find out if this amount was correct, even though he knew it not to be correct.
[00:06:33] Jess O’Reilly: And this is where it takes a turn, folks.
[00:06:38] Brandon Ware: On the call, Jess… Proceeded to inform Brandon that this amount was incorrect and asked Brandon to solve the problem due to a lag in the call. This is where the real, the drama begins. Brandon and Jess continued to talk over each other, which contributed both of their frustration and the belief that both person was being rude and cutting the other person off while they were speaking.
[00:06:55] Brandon Ware: This continued until Brandon eventually made a statement that he was going to hang up the phone and he hung up the phone. Brandon and Jess then reconnected on the phone, uh, and explained that the delay was causing some of the confusion, uh, that Brandon’s behavior in response to hanging up the phone wasn’t effective or helpful in solving the problem or making Jess feel heard or valued.
[00:07:14] Brandon Ware: Brandon apologized and explained that he too didn’t feel heard but recognized. He was relying on Jess to find a solution to the problem rather than solving it on his own at that point in time. Then he ate a popsicle. Then he ate the extra ten popsicles. The booze popsicles.
[00:07:31] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, I’m sure that story makes no sense to people.
[00:07:35] Jess O’Reilly: Okay, should I add mine and there’ll be maybe a little more context? Okay, so I’m going to give a bit of background. We’re in Jamaica for my family reunion and we stay at this place called Skylark and they are fabulous. Really one of my favorite spots in the world. And I always try and get a treat for the staff.
[00:07:50] Jess O’Reilly: So here we go. Brandon went to pick up treats for the Skylark staff at Jess’s request. Jess had indicated that the cost would be 350 times [00:08:00] 60 treats equals 21, 000 Jamaican dollars or around 140 US dollars. And, that the owner of Chill Pops, shout out to them in Negril, and they’re opening a new location in Ochi, the owner was going to throw in 10 brata, which means extra.
[00:08:15] Brandon Ware: No, no, there was none. I ate them all
[00:08:17] Jess O’Reilly: 10. Okay, so don’t even worry about the numbers, but the language of 350 got confusing. So Brandon calls Jess from the shop to ask if the total should be 210 US dollars, even though she told him it should be 140 based on the exchange. So there ends up being a delay on the phones, it felt like we were, I guess I’m supposed to read it.
[00:08:36] Jess O’Reilly: So both parties felt that the other was interrupting, not listening, speaking over the other. Both perceived the other as being rude. Jess was annoyed because she felt she’d been clear about price and she was busy. Brandon was confused, and this may not make sense to people, but Brandon was confused because he thought 350 meant 350 US, when in fact each treat was 350 Jamaican dollars.
[00:08:58] Jess O’Reilly: So the 210 figure he He was quoted, made cents to him based on 350, but not Jamaican dollars, but not based on 3. 50 U. S. dollars. This is super confusing. Anyhow, it’s this coincidence with the money. But the reason he was quoted 210 was because the shop was giving a 1 to 100 exchange, which really didn’t make sense because the exchange is actually 1 to 150.
[00:09:21] Jess O’Reilly: So 1 U. S. dollar is around 150 Jamaican dollars. And many shops give you a decent exchange because they want the U. S. dollars. Anyhow, Jess got all riled up and angry that Brandon called to ask these follow up questions when she had already given him the instructions and she was busy coordinating a dinner for 60 at the family reunion that night.
[00:09:41] Jess O’Reilly: So Brandon was merely trying to ensure that he understood and he understandably called for clarification, but just didn’t get that at the time, and he was confused by the exchange rate. Anyhow, okay, I really feel like a moron, and I think we should stop this right now. We sound super cool. I know, we’re such losers.
[00:09:56] Jess O’Reilly: Anyhow, they were both inadvertently rude on the phone, apologized [00:10:00] after, and it, it kind of wrapped up pretty quickly. It was a kind of a bad comedy of errors, and I think this… Argument spanned and then cleaned up within, what would you say, like 10 minutes? Yeah, maybe it was like quick 10 to 15, and then everybody had popsicles.
[00:10:17] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. They did. I did. I had an Oreo or some sort of popsicle one. They weren’t even for me. They were for the staff. But oh my gosh, I’m, uh, I’m a little activated right now because I feel ridiculous. And I know that you and I, it’s funny, our brains think alike in that we provided all this additional context of like the exchange rate.
[00:10:33] Jess O’Reilly: But the real issue, I guess, was that we were interrupting each other on the phone because of the delay on WhatsApp. And it was kind of an easy conflict to resolve, so I don’t think it aligns with being like the worst conflict of the, of the four month period. No, but, but you know what? I can make it worse.
[00:10:51] Jess O’Reilly: We can go back. This one, this popsicle conflict is only leading up to the bigger conflict.
[00:10:55] Brandon Ware: But what’s nice about this experience and about this exercise is that, number one, we’re laughing about it now. Oh my god. So, yeah, and we know that it’s ridiculous. Being able to reflect back on it and write it out from a neutral perspective gave me more, um, you know, it, it helped me understand, and it also reminded me of the things that I wasn’t doing that I should be doing.
[00:11:15] Brandon Ware: Like it, it’s like, why did I need to call you on the spot and, and require that validation? It’s like, you know, and in the future, I’m like, problem solved, man, you do it all the time. Why did you refer back and, you know, make a decision, move forward?
[00:11:27] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that’s a trigger issue for me. Where I think that if I ask you to do something and I say something that I tend to take the lead on and there’s things in this relationship that I take the lead on and there’s things that you really take the lead on, but I always feel like there’s going to be so many follow up questions and I, I don’t know that that’s a reflection of you or this dynamic, but specifically of me because I feel that way with a lot of people.
[00:11:50] Jess O’Reilly: Like, and I don’t know if it’s because I take the lead on a lot of things. Like I wasn’t even going to the family reunion and somehow I’m on the planning committee.
[00:11:57] Brandon Ware: But I really did enjoy the, the activity, the [00:12:00] exercise, because it gave me an opportunity to reflect on the things that I feel like I can improve in, you know, in future arguments.
[00:12:06] Brandon Ware: And I’m not just trying to say that so that everything is perfect here, but in all seriousness, it’s like looking at it from a different perspective helped me understand things that I’m doing and I’m not doing. And also, you know, this and the comedy of errors that you make reference to, but I just, I thought it was a really good exercise after the dust had settled.
[00:12:24] Jess O’Reilly: Do you think that you’re harder on yourself though, like something I picked up from yours and I’m just, by the way, I’m, I’m hearing it for the first time. I didn’t, we didn’t. Talk about this beforehand, but hearing your version of the story from a neutral perspective, sounds like you might be a little bit more critical of yourself.
[00:12:39] Brandon Ware: I mean, I would agree with that. And I also think that looking at it, I think I should be more critical of my actions in this circumstance, in this situation, because I’m like, there was clear communication in advance. I was lazy on the spot and didn’t, you know, take the initiative to,
[00:12:55] Jess O’Reilly: no, it was confusing because Jamaican dollars as in 350 versus 3 and 50 cents.
[00:13:02] Jess O’Reilly: And then the fact that he was giving you that weird exchange, like, I think it was a bit of a comedy of errors.
[00:13:07] Brandon Ware: So agreed. But at the same time, again, just reflecting on it, I think it gave me a different perspective that I’m like, okay, yeah. Okay. You know, think on the spot, make a, make a decision, move forward.
[00:13:17] Jess O’Reilly: Well, we did it. Yeah, we did it. I’m embarrassed. I’m absolutely not listening to this back, but I thought I’d put it out there for folks just because they did see these significant differences between the control group and the intervention group, and they didn’t do the part where they read it to each other.
[00:13:34] Jess O’Reilly: But I think it’s worth giving it a try. So if you’re dealing with conflict, can you consider writing about the incident or the interaction from a neutral perspective, the perspective of somebody who wants the best for both parties? And if you have trouble with that, you can also look into what holds you back from being neutral because I’ve done this with people before and they will only blame their partner.
[00:13:56] Jess O’Reilly: still like Brandon called jazz and couldn’t do the math [00:14:00] and she was trying to get this dinner ready. But I, I found that it was kind of helpful for me to look at it from, from both sides. So if you find you’re being held back, think about what’s holding you back. And then I think the real takeaway for me is, okay, how can I be a little bit more neutral?
[00:14:15] Jess O’Reilly: How can I be this objective party who wants the best for both parties in the heat of the moment? And I think that’s something that over the years. We sort of have cultivated, I mean, you always said that, you know, we’re a team in this. We’re not trying to, you know, one of us isn’t trying to be right. I’m not saying I don’t get like that at times.
[00:14:30] Jess O’Reilly: Like obviously I love being right. It’s one of my favorite things. It’s one of yeah. After Popsicles. But yeah, think about, okay, so if I’m able to be neutral. post incident in my writing and this exercise, can I be a little bit more neutral in the heat of the moment? When we think about seven minutes, three times a year, 21 minutes a year for less distress, perhaps less conflict, happier relationships, it seems so Worth the effort.
[00:14:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I feel like we’ve pulled down our pants and exposed ourselves here.
[00:15:00] Brandon Ware: Wow. That was, uh, that was very descriptive. I was just going to say if HBO or Netflix or anybody wants the story rights to, you know, maybe the popsicle incident. Just give me, just give me a call. So embarrassed.
[00:15:13] Jess O’Reilly: And I think also I, maybe this was like an easier one because the issue really was.
[00:15:18] Jess O’Reilly: Outside of our control in a way, but it did help me to identify that. I don’t like when I asked somebody to do something and this kind of applies across the board and then they come back to me, even though I’ve been really clear. And again, I know that’s not the case in this situation, but I know that’s what triggered me when you called me.
[00:15:34] Brandon Ware: But that’s what I was going to say. Doing this exercise highlighted the fact that that’s something that I do that we’ve talked about before. So when I said it gives me a different perspective, it was, it was like looking in at a replay of the entire event. And it was like, yeah, man. Hey, Brandon. You are doing that thing.
[00:15:49] Brandon Ware: You might think that you’re not, but you are. And I’m not saying you weren’t wrong in that in certain elements of that whole…
[00:15:55] Jess O’Reilly: When I lost it on the phone. I mean, maybe [00:16:00] just a hint. I want strawberry popsicles. Bring me my Oreos and cookies and cream, clown. Okay, enough about popsicles. Anyhow, hope you give this a try.
[00:16:10] Jess O’Reilly: Writing from a neutral perspective, from a party who is both objective and wants the best for both of you. It’s going to take less than seven minutes. I would say mine took about three minutes, so totally worth the effort. And hey, if you’ve had ridiculous fights, hopefully you feel validated as well.
[00:16:25] Brandon Ware: Have some fun with it, right?
[00:16:26] Brandon Ware: Laugh about it if you can.
[00:16:27] Jess O’Reilly: Yes, yes. Uh, we’re still running our promo on happiercouples. com if you’re interested in any of our video courses on pleasure, on mindful sex, on premature ejaculation, and lasting longer, happiercouples. com. And the code to save is podcast. Nice and simple. Folks, I hope you’re eating a nice…
[00:16:46] Jess O’Reilly: It’s fresh, delicious popsicle, wherever you’re at, have a great one. You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
https://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/eli-finkel/documents/InPress_FinkelSlotterLuchiesWaltonGross_PSci_000.pdf
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12 Strategies To Deal With Rejection
3 aug 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Whether at work or in a personal relationship, rejection can suck. Listen to the SexWithDrJess podcast (above) or read the brief summary and full transcript below. As always, thank you so much for being here and engaging with our content. We appreciate you.
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Rejection Happens — in the Boardroom and the Bedroom
We poured through messages from across our community—sexual partners, executives, performers, and friendship groups all shared the ways rejection shows up. Why did this matter so much? Because we tend to feel it more acutely when it threatens a core identity or social capital.
Practical Strategies to Manage RejectionBroaden your connection toolbox
If your world runs on sex—or status—build emotional, intellectual, physical, creative, communal ways to feel seen.
Reframe rejection as protection
Sometimes “no” is a headnod from life steering you toward better matches or priorities.
Flip the initiation script
Both people take turns initiating—this sharing builds empathy and reframes what a “no” even means.
Prioritize quality
Better communication and attentiveness in sex and life mean fewer personalizations of “no.”
Let yourself feel
You’re human—sit with the emotions, don’t rush, don’t blame. According to the APA, developing psychological strategies to cope with rejection can help you build emotional resilience and reduce the long-term impact of repeated “nos.”
Rewrite your inner narrative
Spot those “I’m unworthy” loops and replace them with evidence-based truths.
Lean on your circle
Friends, partners, therapists—hold space and shatter the isolation of shame.
Practice rejection
Like auditions or casual dating—it builds resilience if your crew is cheering you on.
Ask what you want
Name the emotional needs—time, recognition, validation—and invite your partner to help meet them—not out of obligation, but nuance.
Shift from “no” to “not now”
Softer refusals paired with alternatives keep connection alive.
Take a beat
That primal panic? Pause. Regulate. Breathe. And reapproach clear-headed.
Derive growth from “no”
Every rejection teaches something—skill, timing, values, boundaries.

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More to Read: Internal Link SuggestionsFor tools to open these key conversations, check our post on erotic connection – Quick connection exercise for couples.
If you’d like to explore balancing intimacy and exploration, see erotic seduction – The core erotic feeling.
Stay Connected
Loved these tips? Subscribe to our newsletter for sex and relationship insights and catch our full conversations on the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast.
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
12 Strategies to Manage Rejection
Intro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice. You can use tonight.
Dr. Jess: Hey, hey, we are running a repeat podcast today on the topic of rejection because it’s, it’s a week of rejection emails. If you’re going to rejection, that’s my jam. I’m totally, let’s go. Let’s do this. It’s your specialty? Receiving rejection or rejecting others? Both. Oh, really? Okay. Anyhow, we received so many questions about dealing with rejection this week.
Sometimes these things come in waves and themes. And questions about rejection in and out of the bedroom. And a while back, we covered this topic, so we’re gonna do it again, and I’m gonna share that episode with you, which is perfect for me, because we are down at my family reunion. Over 60 of us, Chinese [00:01:00] Jamaicans, Changs.
Brandon: This is where the rejection came in. I tried so hard to talk to people, but they just kept rejecting and not listening to me.
Dr. Jess: Well, my family’s on transmit, not receive. Yeah, for sure. We talk more than we listen. Anyhow, we’re down here, lots of distractions, lots of food, so much chaos, so much love, and I’m happy to get to enjoy it.
So, without further ado, we’ll throw it back to, I think March 2022. Here you go.
Brandon: Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host Brandon Ware here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess.
Dr. Jess: Well, hello. Hello. We’re going to be talking about rejection because we started talking about rejection last week by accident, sort of, and I got a lot of feedback actually on that episode and people had a lot of questions and maybe felt we didn’t go as much into depth as we could have and also people shared their insights.
So today we’re going to talk about how to handle rejection and potentially boost confidence and I have insights from over a dozen people. who sent short messages, longer messages and all really helpful stuff, actually.
Brandon: I feel like I did go very deep, [00:02:00] personally.
Dr. Jess: Oh, it was to be clear, people weren’t complaining, they just kind of wanted more of it.
Oh, okay.
Brandon: Well, I mean, rejection is something that everybody deals with, so let’s
Dr. Jess: do it. Yeah, and last week, actually, we talked about the fact that you don’t feel badly when I reject you sexually. It’s when it’s otherwise. Mm hmm, yes. Yeah, and that’s really interesting because one of the first comments I received, and then I received a number along this theme, is around why women can say no to sex, but when a guy says no, it’s absurd or crazy, and there were a bunch of other kind of descriptions there.
And it really does speak to these gender double standards that are rooted in, I think, social capital around, along gender lines, right? Men are supposed to always want sex, they’re supposed to be good at sex, they’re supposed to take it personally if a partner doesn’t want them, and for women, it’s a little bit different.
Now, I definitely work with a ton of women who feel pressure to have sex, especially in relationships and in marriages, but we do, we, we, we have these gender double standards and it’s nothing new, you know, we’re not the first to say it, but it’s interesting that you don’t [00:03:00] feel rejected when, or you don’t feel upset by sexual rejection because I did get many messages mostly from straight guys who really just said, It’s really about connection.
So when they get rejected, especially over and over again, it brings up feelings of, and I’ll just read one of these out. So he says it brings up feelings of unlovability, unworthiness, being unimportant. And this person says, I’m actually working through some of that with some support, but also think it’s, he thinks it’s common in monogamous sexual relationships because masturbation, for example, doesn’t provide the emotional connection.
They’re looking for, and I, I gotta say, I hear this from so many people, definitely from women, but more so from men, that sex is a means of connection. And so this is such a, an important piece around sexual rejection to really think about what does sex mean to you and have that conversation with a partner because I don’t know about you.
Do you see sex as a important means of connection or do you find other ways of other methods of connection really
Brandon: important to you? We do [00:04:00] connect. I do feel connected when we have sex but no it’s not the primary means of how I feel connected to you. What makes
Dr. Jess: you feel connected and loved and important and worthy?
Well,
Brandon: a lot of different things there, but I mean, just generally speaking, you express those to me verbally on a daily basis, so frequently that I just, I feel it like you wake up in the morning and you tell me how much this relationship matters. You tell me how much you enjoy being with me. I don’t. So I feel like I have that emotional connection from the start of the day and through the day.
And I think I reciprocate it back where I certainly try to. So I’m. I feel that all the time. So the sex, yeah, we’re connected and it feels great and I feel connected after but that’s not the most important point of connection for me.
Dr. Jess: And interestingly for me, I definitely use sex as a means of connection.
Like the physical is so important to me and so when I am rejected, when I feel, when I experience sexual rejection. I am more inclined to personalize it, like I’m more inclined to see it as some sort of, you know, take it as a [00:05:00] barometer of the relationship. And I have to stop myself and say, okay, so maybe he’s just not interested in sex right now.
Maybe it’s not good timing. You know, maybe there are other reasons it’s not necessarily about me. And more importantly, It’s not necessarily an indication of how you’re feeling in the relationship. And so I think that’s what, what is really important for folks who are saying, Hey, it’s all about connection.
When I get rejected over and over again, it brings up these feelings of lack of worth and being unloved and not feeling important. I think those are obviously very valid responses and also personalized responses because you define what sex means to you and if sex is a really important connection point, I think it’s important to express that to your partner.
Obviously not pressuring them to have sex with you, they have no obligation, but maybe the way they decline sex matters. Maybe what you do in lieu of sex matters, and of course people define sex very differently. You know, from one person to another and one from one couple to another. But my big thing would be, okay, so what are other ways to connect that feel really good for you?
Because if I wanted sex [00:06:00] from you and then, not from you, with you. Give me the sex. If I wanted to have sex with you and then you said no yeah, I think it would be easy for me to go to a place of like, oh, he doesn’t feel like connecting with me. But I also have to do the self talk to be like, okay, it’s not about that.
But maybe I can also say to you when you’re not in the mood, I like, are there other things you want to do? Like, can we be close in a different way? Does an intimate conversation help me to connect as well?
Brandon: Well, I think that was really important what you just said, because, you know, going back to this question, I think it’s important to understand, you know, what you want.
But if you don’t, if you don’t start there, like understanding, What you want, when you want it, how you want it. You’re not going to be able to convey that to your partner and have that conversation. It’s like when we have sex, this makes me feel connected. So when I’m rejected, I don’t feel connected and it just kind of spirals from there.
But again, it all boils down, at least for me, to these conversations, these meaningful conversations. And what you said I thought was really interesting because when you, when I’ve rejected you sexually, not only do I, not only do you feel bad, but I also feel bad [00:07:00] because I know that socially I’ve been told that as a, as a man, I’m supposed to want sex 24 seven all the time.
And if I’m rejecting you, there’s something wrong with me. So I’ve had to kind of deconstruct and really understand. Those underlying social pressures and just be like screw it. I don’t really care like I’m not feeling and I can convey to you I don’t want to have sex right now because of this or because of that because I’m stressed because of work or I’m Or I’m not in the mood or I’m on whatever and not feeling bad because Socially, I’m supposed to want it all the time, which is just
Dr. Jess: ridiculous.
Well, and when you bring up conversations I think we also have to have them with some real understanding and grace because yeah, I can convey to you. Hey When we have sex, I feel more connected to you, but I also don’t want to pressure you. I don’t want you to be concerned that we’ll feel disconnected.
I think what’s really important is that we look at multiple ways to emotionally connect. And when I hear this more from so many straight guys, I do wonder if we’re not giving men The grace, the latitude, the space, the [00:08:00] tools, the permission to be emotionally or intimately connected with people in other ways.
So I don’t think it’s like men have a deficit. I think socioculturally, we’ve created a very limited and narrow view of how men are allowed to express themselves and so that takes a lot of work for individuals to defy those sociocultural norms and say, you know what, sex isn’t the only way I can connect and it’s not necessarily the most meaningful and maybe for some people it is.
Like everything is just different to different people. Like some people feel really connected when they’re speaking, for some people it’s when they’re touching, for other people it’s when you’re doing something like new and exciting. But I think that If we can all expand and broaden the ways in which we connect, regardless of gender, that could help as well to kind of attenuate the effects of rejection.
Because rejection is going to exist no matter what. And of course we can get semantic and be like, well, is it rejection or is it just saying no to sex? But somebody’s going to say no to sex at some point in time. And what
Brandon: are you afraid of too? Like if, if I say no, if you come on to me sexually and I, and [00:09:00] I reject you or I, I just say I’m not in the mood.
Am I, is my fear that you’re going to go and tell everybody that I’m not having sex? Like that
Dr. Jess: I’m rejecting you? Well, I think when I, when I’m looking at this kind of set of messages, it has to do with not feeling connected, not feeling loved, not feeling worthy. I’m really personalizing it. And again, I don’t put this on the individuals.
I think this is a sociocultural norm around gender. And I, I think that for men in particular, it can be difficult to overcome because we’ve got such rigid norms around what a man is supposed to be. And these messages, so I kind of grouped them together, these messages about feeling unlovable or feeling like they can’t connect when their partner says no over and over again.
Come from both straight and gay men. So so interesting. So the, the first one was around, so when I said that I had insights from over a dozen people, the first one was around the sexual, the gender double standard that we really need to eradicate. And the second one really is around sex being about connection for them.
And so that rejection cuts deeper. It’s not like, Not [00:10:00] getting a job or anything like that. So then we have a short one. So we’ll move on to number three this is from someone I know actually and
Brandon: they say there rejection is just god’s protection and apparently it’s supposed to rhyme Yeah, he wrote
Dr. Jess: that.
I love this actually I think can we reframe rejection to be something that saves guards safeguards us against? things that aren’t good for us. Like, I didn’t get that job because I didn’t click with the hiring team, so maybe I wouldn’t have really liked working with them anyway. Or maybe I approached someone to make a new connection and they were aloof, and maybe that’s just not the energy I need in my life.
So I’m not trying to oversimplify, like everything happens for a reason, but I do think that there is a protective mechanism in things that don’t work out. in the way that we assumed or hoped that they would
Brandon: initially. And sometimes the things that do work out, you wish didn’t work out. Yeah. I mean, I wish that there were certain people that had rejected me.
Really? So you hadn’t? Yeah. And again, it has more to do with, with work, not very many, but I’m just like, you know, in retrospect, I was like, why I wish that I maybe had listened. to my gut, or at [00:11:00] certain things, because, you know, you end up having a relationship with them, whether personal, professional, whatever.
And in hindsight, I’m like, I wish I hadn’t. Like, I really, I do. It’s just, it’s not worth my time, my effort, my energy.
Dr. Jess: I like it. So rejection is God’s protection, or the universe’s protection, or whatever it is you believe in, in terms of big power, higher power. All right, we have another short one. A Instagram from somebody.
Is this
Brandon: here? Don’t take it as a negative. Don’t take it personally. People have many different preferences and it’s not about you. That’s a
Dr. Jess: big one. Yeah. That is really a big one that it’s, it’s not always about you. And we need to be nicer to ourselves. Just like I think. You give other people grace, give yourself the same grace.
And Elvis, you know, in cognitive behavioral therapy will often think about your best friend. Like, what would your best friend say to reassure you? And can you speak to yourself that way? Or, if it’s easier, if the same thing happened to your best friend, what would you tell them and can you just heed your own perspective?
Yeah,
Brandon: it’s, [00:12:00] it’s It’s hard not to look at it in a negative light in the moment, but I think, again, with a little bit of time, a little bit of reflection, and a bit of just rational thought, a lot of those things that were said here are true. Sometimes it’s not about you. Most of the time, I always go back, for me, I think so much just about work, and I’m like, sometimes it has nothing to do with me.
Sometimes it has to do with a bunch of other variables that have nothing to do with what I’ve done or how I’ve interacted. And
Dr. Jess: I do think that at the core of all of this. If we work on our own sense of self, and we work on our own confidence, and we work on our own fulfillment, and our sense of meaning, we have so many other things going on in our lives, so many other sources of joy, and support, and welcoming and celebration that the rejection is sort of a blip and so then, you know, some people face more hardships in life, right?
The reality of, you know, microaggressions every day or little things that chip away at you and so rejection can feel even more intense. So it’s not like if everybody employs the same strategies, we’ll have the same outcomes. But I think that if we go [00:13:00] through all of these different perspectives that people have shared, hopefully there’s, you know, one or two or a few that resonate with you.
Okay, somebody else wrote in and said, Accept rejection. Don’t let it turn into dejection. Hmm. And, and they say, For me, it’s not about personalizing it. My girlfriend isn’t in the mood? Cool. It has nothing to do with me. So similar to what the last person said. And they go on. And honestly, I don’t feel like it’s my job to get her in the mood.
Sometimes I will. But if she knows what she has to do to get herself in the mood too, that’s on her. She likes sex as much as I do. I know that for sure. So if she is working too much or going out too much and feeling tired or not doing the things that facilitate her mood, It’s not about me, but this is such an interesting story.
Okay, but this only applies since we started talking about sex 10 years ago I know she said no to sex because the sex wasn’t good for her now that I know what she likes Now that we’ve both learned to be better lovers. We don’t personalize things as much So I guess it begins with making sure the sex is good first and learning to be an open caring attentive [00:14:00] lover And then you don’t personalize it when they say no.
Oh, wow. There’s lots in here I love this so much because, oh, for several reasons. First of all, sometimes people come to me complaining that their partners don’t want sex and sort of criticizing their partners or asking me to fix their partners. And in some cases, yeah, we can work on the relationship, we can work on communication, we can work on connection, we can work on lifestyle.
But sometimes it’s actually about the sex. So sexual rejection, and even other types of rejection in the relationship, sometimes have to do with the quality. Of what they’re saying no to and that’s a really scary thing and I don’t want to make people feel bad Like if your partner is not enjoying sex, it’s actually not all on you Nobody is a great lover on their own like we become great lovers through learning through openness through shedding shame through talking to partners because every partner is different through keeping the communication ongoing because what they like in 2022 might be very different than what they like in 2023 or what they like on a monday [00:15:00] Might be different than what they want on a sunday So this person’s really talking about taking care of the quality of your sex life first and then sexual rejection is just something that happens and you don’t take it personally and that this is specific to sexual rejection,
Brandon: of course.
But I also like, for me, it was, they said here that they started. Talking about sex. It was something where we were having sex. We didn’t, I’m assuming they didn’t really discuss it very much. And then all of a sudden they started having these conversations that uncovered a bunch of things like, I like this, I don’t like that.
All of a sudden the sex gets better and then it just snowballs from there. I would be like, that was great. I’d like to do that again more often because it was very good, thank you. And then of course, positive reinforcement, you’re having more sex, things are feeling good, you’re having more conversations, you’re perhaps exploring new things together or on your own that feel good.
Like, again, it just boils down to having some of these conversations to understand the other partner. And it’s not just sex, I mean, we’re talking rejection, I know it’s sexual rejection, but it applies to so [00:16:00] many things. Different aspects of your relationship.
Dr. Jess: Absolutely. Yeah, I love this. Rejection, not dejection, and focusing on quality.
Whatever it is you feel they’re saying no to, can we look at the quality? And without blame, without guilt, without shame. I don’t want
Brandon: to harp on the whole talking point, but we’ve been together for 20, coming up on 20, living together for coming up on 21 years. And this weekend, when we went for a hike, on the drive there, we had, we did one of our exercises.
We did that interview. One of my experts. Yeah. Sorry. Well, no. One of. Yeah. That’s what I’m looking at you. So that’s what I’m saying. But we, we
Dr. Jess: did one of. It’s 50. Everything mine is 50 percent yours. Did you write half that book?
Brandon: I did. I absolutely did not. I sold half that house. Yes. But just going back to that, we did that.
We had that conversation during the drive and again, it’s like I learned something about. 21 years later, and I feel like I don’t feel like we’ve had all the conversations, but, and I’ll tell you when you first asked if I wanted to do it, I was like, you know, I’m kind of enjoying just listening to [00:17:00] music, but I thought, let’s do it.
And then when we started doing it, I started thinking about my own situation. Like some of the questions made me reflect on my own set of circumstances growing up and whatnot. So it was just so. Interesting and
Dr. Jess: helpful. And so what Brennan’s referring to is, I believe it’s called the intimacy interview episode.
So there’s, we can put a link to that if you want to go back to it. So we did it years ago on the podcast together, or a year, I don’t remember. And so that’s the interesting thing is that you don’t even remember my answers and my answers change over time and likewise for you. So I do think these exercises are helpful.
All right. So speaking of talking number six, this person says, Everything changed for me when I finally talked to my wife about the all one sided initiation. Oh, this is one of my clients from one of my workshops. So he says, I was in your workshop in, I’ll just redact the city. You said that we need to share initiation because when one person does all the sexual initiation, they’re the only one who has to deal with the potential of sexual rejection.
The other is often avoidant, so they don’t have to deal with it. So when my wife and I [00:18:00] finally had the conversation, and we both agreed that we should both initiate, I learned that sometimes I’m not in the mood when she’s in the mood. And she learned what it feels like when I say no not that I’m trying to punish her.
And he goes on to say the first part, my finally saying no to her, because I wasn’t finding myself in the mood, at the same time, made me realize I’m not rejecting her. I’m just not in the mood for sex. So I get that it’s the same for her. She’s not rejecting me. She just doesn’t want that type of connection at that specific time.
So switching roles really helped me. But also, because she was pretty upset the first few times I said no, it changed the way she communicates her no to me and how I communicate my no to her. And we’ve talked about how to reject with care and what we can do when the other isn’t in the mood. So it’s just not a big deal anymore.
So this is cool. I’m glad people are thinking about some of the things that I talk about in the, in the workshops. And it’s definitely not that I think that sexual initiation needs to be 50 50. And there may be exceptional [00:19:00] relationships where one person really does like to do all the initiating and one person likes to receive.
The vast majority of couples I hear from want to share in it, especially the partner who’s doing more of the initiating. feels that they’d like their partner to step up, like that’s what I hear kind of over and over again. And we do have some episodes in the past about how to initiate sex. I’ve talked about how I don’t really like to initiate sex.
Like, I want you. I, especially right now, I’m like crazy attracted to you. It’s because I’m flexing. I just mean right this minute. But no, lately I feel very physically drawn to you, sexually drawn to you, personally, just very emotionally drawn to you. And when I’m emotionally drawn to you, I do, I want to be close in every possible way and like as close as I can get.
But, I do struggle to initiate, and I think I’ve gotten better, but I do, like, it’s, it’s not something that comes naturally to me, it doesn’t matter how much advice I give on it, it doesn’t matter how many tips I read or write, it’s a struggle for me, and I just know I need to push through because, well, in our case, and I can’t speak for everyone, but this is a common pattern I see among [00:20:00] couples, Everybody wants to feel wanted and for many people when their partner initiates or anybody initiates, they feel wanted and it’s just, it’s a universal human desire where we, most of us want to feel wanted.
I like
Brandon: that they, that this, this person in their role reversal, it helped them, it helped him better communicate with his partner. Like, like just the idea of once everything was swapped around, the way that he interacted, the rejection really just changed because I feel like once you step into somebody else’s shoes and maybe see things from their perspective, understand it, it always gives me a better, a better perspective on how to respond.
And I, I just love that. Like I, I’m, you’re reading out this question and I, I love that both people have taken so much out of having these conversations and understanding the other person’s perspective. I love how
Dr. Jess: excited you
Brandon: are about this. I just, you know what, I’m, I’m listening to these questions and I think, and these comments on people’s relationships and I think it’s, it’s amazing to see and hear that people are taking the time to improve them.
Because I feel like people [00:21:00] don’t. Understand the power of a really healthy relationship. You talk about it all the time relationships or relationships. Yes. I’m sorry I didn’t mean it just a singular but mm hmm having these really like healthy relationships Benefits so many other aspects of your life.
Dr. Jess: Oh, and we have we have got the data. We have all the data I mean, I don’t have it, but there’s so much data on how having happy relationships, especially your intimate relationship, affects your mental health, your physical health, recovery from you know, heart disease, survival after cancer, survival after surgeries it affects your income, it affects the energy and the attitude you bring into the workplace.
And that’s why I get to do the amazing work that I do. I’m actually in Romania this week with a, with a CEOs because they see that when they invest in supporting. the relationships of their teams, they see more productivity, see more profit, they see more collaboration, they see improved culture in the workplace.
Like, I imagine that in 10 or 20 years we’ll see so many more supports for relationships. And I [00:22:00] know that there’s some blurred lines because people, like a lot of corps, are very nervous to even talk about relationships because with relationships comes a talk of sex and of course we don’t want to bring sex into the workplace and they want to make sure that it doesn’t become grounds for sexual harassment or sexual bullying or anything like that.
But even if you, even if we left the sex aside for a while, we know that when we support people’s intimate and personal relationships, their lives are happier, they live longer, life satisfaction is higher. There’s just so much data, and I mean I can just speak personally, I wouldn’t do this work if I didn’t feel So fulfilled and it doesn’t mean that I’m always like 100 percent happy in this relationship or that every relationship of mine is perfect Like I struggle in a lot of my relationships, but I also Really value them really appreciate them really take a lot out of them and try and give a lot to them and I definitely wouldn’t Be talking about sex and intimate relationships If I wasn’t just feeling so good with you, like it feels I literally feel like I can do anything I feel so loved by you.
I feel so appreciated by you. [00:23:00] I feel I don’t know. I just feel like you have my back and love me so purely and yeah, I appreciate it so much. Yeah,
Brandon: I mean, I feel the same way and I also look at my, again, my working career and I feel like I wouldn’t be where I am today if I didn’t have this healthy foundation.
Fact.
Dr. Jess: I’m just kidding. Fact. I sold 1, 000 of the homes. Yeah,
Brandon: exactly. In all seriousness, I don’t feel like I would be where I am today if I didn’t have a healthy relationship where I can convey to you, you know, I, you know, would it, is it okay? I have this that popped up and, or that, and you know, it’s not that what we’re doing tonight isn’t important, but I have this that needs to, to happen.
And you’re like, you know what? I understand. You still, you know, you make me feel important other, other ways. Other times I realize that you’re not rejecting me right now.
Dr. Jess: Oh yeah. I mean, I can speak to the fact that when we first got together or, you know, in the first 10 years of our relationship and you were trying to like, you know, make it in real estate and build your business and build your book of business.
And you were working for someone in the beginning who was a [00:24:00] real, like, who was, who is not a kind person who demanded too much of you, who pressured you even to some degree kind of threatened you. And is it okay to just share that? Yeah, I mean, I don’t, I don’t have any problem with that. I’m not saying names or anything, but you, you would, we’d have, sorry to just kind of lose my words there, but we’ll keep this in here because it is what it is.
It’s what I’m thinking. If we had plans on a Friday night, I knew that you might not make it. Like I knew that I might have to just kind of explain to my friends that you wouldn’t make it because that was your, you
Brandon: went on holidays without
Dr. Jess: me. Yeah. And it’s just, I remember like, of course, feeling frustrated with it, feeling disappointed, wanting Yeah.
you to be around more, but also understanding that this was a part of the job. And with that negative part of the job came a bunch of other positives, like we could take a Monday afternoon off. But the biggest thing for me was that we needed to remain flexible because that job didn’t give you warning.
Right? Like, and you actually have a legal obligation when you have a property on the market, when you have a contract with a client, we have a [00:25:00] contract with a developer. You need to attend to it, I don’t know what the language is, but in a timely fashion. And so it’s not like you were just cancelling and choosing, you really, it really was a part of your job and it was just kind of something that.
I accepted, and again, to use the language of some of the folks who wrote in, I didn’t personalize it. Like it didn’t, as much as it was annoying, and I felt disappointed at times, I never felt like it was a rejection of me. And I think that goes back to not my attitude and not my approach, but the way you communicated your love and commitment and care and appreciation for me in all the other ways.
So I do think that In the context of, you know, a singular relationship or any specific relationship, sometimes if, if we’re feeling like the rejection is really about us, it could be from our own patterns and our, you know, maybe our own attachment styles or our expectations and experiences, but it could also be that maybe we can nurture another area of of the relationship to make sure that we’re feeling loved and appreciated and I just want to say because I spoke so much about some of the benefits of a happy [00:26:00] relationship, these are all types of relationships so it could be a connection with a friend who really loves and cares for you.
It could be a connection with a parent, with a sibling, with a cousin and I, you know, I think that I’ve been guilty of kind of hyper focusing on intimate relationships because that’s the work that I do and also that’s my personal experience like you’re the person I’m closest with but All types of relationship matter.
All types of relationships can bring these benefits that apply across the board. Alright, let’s continue. We’ve got six more or seven more to get through. Can you read out the next one? I think somebody sent this over Instagram. I
Brandon: don’t care about rejection. I’ve been, sorry, I’ve been being rejected for so long, but I don’t let it affect my confidence because I’m single and I’m always meeting people.
I don’t like all of them, not because they’re not attractive or not good people, but because they’re not a fit for me. Same applies to me. I’m not everyone’s cup of tea, and I’m okay with that. All
Dr. Jess: right, so that same message of it’s not about me. Okay, great. And then we’ve got one that’s pretty to the point with lots of exclamation [00:27:00] marks.
Just
Brandon: be rational, people. What’s the worst that can happen? If someone says no to you for a date or for sex or for anything, is it really the end of the world?
Dr. Jess: Come on. Okay. This person is feeling it. Okay. I don’t think we can like, maybe people can take that with their own nuance, but I like the question of like, what’s the worst that could happen?
Is this one of the things that matters most to me? And in the moment, of course, if you really like someone or if you’re feeling lonely or if you’re just feeling left out, of course, it, it stings, right? It’s hard to think, like you keep saying, think rationally. Okay. Sometimes you can’t think rationally.
Sometimes you’re just going to feel stuff. I feel like
Brandon: it’s just that initial moment of rejection, that visceral response where your, your knee jerk, my knee jerk reaction is, Oh, you know, why, why is this happening? And then what this person said is, okay, take a beat. Let me think about it for a minute.
What’s the worst? Okay, so this person rejected me. Like you’ve said, I’m still here, still healthy, still have a [00:28:00] lot of other good in my life. Think about that for a quick second. This stinks. I get it.
Dr. Jess: But I’m alright. And that visceral reaction, as I’ve spoken about before, isn’t, it’s an evolutionary holdover.
Yes. Right? The minute we feel like, Oh, I’m not going to be taken care of. I’m left out of the pack. I’m going to die. I’m not going to get my foraged berries. I want whatever they bring back from the forest, like on their shoulders, not the berries. All right. So this person wrote, in my marriage, it’s really about making it about alternatives.
So the rejection is a soft rejection. It’s like, no, I don’t want to do that right now, but I’ll do this. Or no, I’m not up for that today, but maybe on the weekend. Or no, I don’t want to go shopping with you, but let’s hang out later and watch a movie. And it’s not really, it’s not a no, it’s a not now, maybe later, or this
Brandon: instead.
I’ve been guilty of being a no person. I think in the past, I was a no first. and then a maybe yes second
Dr. Jess: or third. Yeah, like everything in life, you don’t, I’d always know you’d say no and I’d have to massage you into it. And then it’s
Brandon: like, yeah, but a few years ago I started saying, you know what? [00:29:00] Yes first, or at least maybe first.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Big Mike, no, no, no,
Dr. Jess: no, My uncle. Your uncle. All my Jamaican family. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Love that guy.
Brandon: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He’s, he’s amazing. But I do think I started changing that approach. And you know what? It, it opens some doors. It’s not that I’m saying yes to everything, it’s just that I’m more inclined to say Yes, or maybe to let you know that I am interested because I think I said no as a default and then eventually you I can only imagine that you’d get frustrated and eventually not want to bring things up to me like the fun stuff.
You mean the fun stuff, the travel, the dinners, the whatever. And my default was just no. Why? I don’t know. It’s I again, I got to think about it, but it’s just no was the safe bet. Maybe no was the easy way for me, and then And
Dr. Jess: if you say no at the beginning, and you, and then you change your mind to yes, you’ve, you’ve kind of, you joke about over promise.
Oh no, under promise, over deliver, but I think that you don’t want to disappoint. [00:30:00] So you’d rather say no, just in case. Mm hmm. You can’t. That’s what I think of you. And now
Brandon: I’m, a part of me is, is like life is short, life, you know, like let’s do some of these things. Again, not everything, but let me at least be open to saying yes and maybe.
All
Dr. Jess: right. So I like these and I like that this person is talking about alternatives. All right. We’ve got a few more. This one is from a therapist, actually. I know who this person is. So they say, Feel what you’re feeling. If you feel badly, feel badly. Don’t run from your feelings of rejection. Let yourself feel them if you want.
Or don’t. There’s no right way to deal with an experience. There’s no universal way to manage emotions. You don’t have to feel every emotion either. And it’s okay to distract yourself. It’s okay to use coping mechanisms. It’s okay to ignore sometimes. And then maybe go back to the feelings later and ask yourself how avoiding them might hold you back.
But you don’t have to be perfect and you don’t have to fix everything right now. There’s a lot in there. I like it. Okay. I mean, I like that a lot. I think that’s really [00:31:00] helpful. I think another piece around rejection that I’ll just add has to do with the stories we tell ourselves. And we kind of started with this, like, if you say no to sex, you don’t love me, or if they don’t want to go out with me, I’m not good enough.
And these Stories we tell ourselves are often around, you know, messages of I’m not worthy, I’ll never succeed, you know, everyone else is better, or they like everyone else better, this always happens to me. And so it can be helpful just to kind of write the messages, the stories that you associate with rejection down, whether it’s with work, or friends, or family, or you know, intimate partners, and write them down so you can rewrite them.
So, I’m not worthy, like, we have to remind ourselves we’re worthy, like, something wasn’t a fit. Failing or missing out is normal. Feeling left out at times is normal. Reminding yourself that you’re not alone and looking for the people around you. And reminding yourself that you are surrounded by and deserving of.
Love and appreciation.
Brandon: I love the I love the focus. I like normalizing some of these things and I also think that writing down really does help you understand that some [00:32:00] of your thoughts are very irrational. I also read, saw something the other day that just made reference to this fear of trying something new and failing, maybe not so much rejection as it is failure.
It’s like everybody who’s become very successful at something started by failing. Like not everyone started a sport, a, you know, became a professional athlete or whatever it is. They didn’t, they didn’t hit their first hoop, you know, they didn’t score their first shot. Like it was, it takes practice. And we fail all the time.
Some of that practice or failure is rejection too, right? Like you might not make the team, but it’s like if you quit, you’re never gonna, that you’re gonna close that door on yourself. Right? So I, I just, I love the idea of, of, of like writing things down and understanding your thoughts. You
Dr. Jess: know, that, that actually leads to, you know, practicing rejection is something that this next person describes.
And they say, this is a really good one. I have two rejection lessons. I used to be an actor singer in my teens and 20s, auditioning all the time, rejected all the time. My friends were everything. They still are. They were my support system, my [00:33:00] cheerleaders, my friend a piss, like therapists. I didn’t have to go into detail, they just had my back every time I had a bad audition or got really close and lost out.
If I didn’t have them, I would have been eating nothing but ice cream and tears. Okay, so your cheerleading squad, like your support system, is important. And then they go on to say, the other rejection lesson I have is from my relationships. I had a really bad one where my partner didn’t just reject me, he was sort of mean about it.
I thought it was normal. I was also in my mid 20s, I had this amazing support system of friends who I’d run to when I lost out on it. acting role, but I hid the boyfriend stories from them because I was a shame. I really suffered for a while in silence. It cost me jobs that I did land, it was so bad, and the only way I got out of it and broke the funk was that I finally told one of my friends.
She sorta slapped some sense into me and made me realize that I was hiding everything in shame and In doing so, making it worse. My situation was a bit extreme, but what I learned from it was that you have to speak it out in the open. Don’t hide your failures and rejections. They’re so much less [00:34:00] powerful and have so much less of a hold on you if you just admit to them.
Tell people. Talk about it. Laugh about it. And that one bad relationship after that, I could kind of laugh about anything ridiculous with any of the other guys I dated. So there was no shame in it. Of course, it doesn’t feel good to be rejected or hurt, but if you don’t let it become shameful, it’s so much easier to get over.
I have the same approach with my now husband. We talk, we laugh, we don’t feel badly when we say no or set boundaries, and I still turn to my friends for support or when I need them to hold up the mirror to me. A lot of
Brandon: great, a lot of great commentary in here. Yeah. I love the ability for them to To just, there’s something cathartic about just releasing, like letting go of that in, like, just being like, this is it, this is what’s going on, this is my relationship, or this is my
Dr. Jess: experience.
Well, we know that shame breeds and multiplies exponentially in secrecy, right? When we, when we hold on to something, it feels so much worse because not only are you holding on to this thing that is not positive for you, but you’re also sitting in constant fear. that [00:35:00] you’re going to be found out. And I think we all have something in our life like that, that we kind of hold on to and when somebody finds out or when you do speak it or when you find somebody in whom you can confide, whether it’s a friend, a partner, a loved one, a therapist, it is just so incredibly cathartic.
So thank you so much for that message and for sharing your
Brandon: story. There’s also a confidence that comes with letting things go, right? I think like once you like this person own it I would imagine that their subsequent relationships or, or whatever it is that they were experiencing became a little bit easier and they became, I’m guessing, maybe a more, I, I’ve found myself to be a more confident version of myself when I own the things that other people have made me feel shame about in my past.
Like, I, like, I remember a few specific things and it’s, it’s just like so much, I mean, years ago, people. So when we first got together, I mean, I did those shots those photos. Oh, yeah, and
Dr. Jess: so Woody’s is a Awesome gay bar in Toronto on Church Street [00:36:00] and in our gayborhood really close to where we live. Mm hmm and Brandon did modeling for them Yeah,
Brandon: I did years ago and then
Dr. Jess: partially nude modeling.
Well, yeah,
Brandon: I mean I like no peeing No, there was no no shots of the junk your hand cover your junk Yeah, I was covered, yeah.
Dr. Jess: At one point a flag covered your gun. That’s one of my favorite ones. But here’s
Brandon: the thing is that when I got into real estate because these photos had been used in a number of different magazines, like circulated in the village, and you know, they used my photos on some of the I was amongst one of the many models, people who were photographed for the, for the signage at front of their Yeah, billboards.
Yes, thank you. The billboards for their for their bar. They were hot. Yeah,
Dr. Jess: people are googling but i google brandon will woody’s. I don’t know if you can find it I don’t think your name was on them. No,
Brandon: but when I got into real estate I remember it being almost something that people were like Brought up in some, like, like, almost like it should have been shameful, like I should have been Well
Dr. Jess: let’s be honest, your boss shamed you for it Oh yeah, completely And was like, don’t let [00:37:00] anybody find out And I remember what you said to him, I’m gonna say this right now You said, if this was a Calvin Klein ad, you’d be all supportive of it But this is your homophobia, because this is for a gay bar, you’ve got a problem with it Yeah,
Brandon: I forgot that I had actually said that, but yeah, I do remember that now, but you’re exactly right.
It’s like if that had just been Calvin Klein or whatever it was at the time, people would have been like, wow, that’s awesome or whatever.
Dr. Jess: Those are my two standards. There’s Woody’s modeling and there’s Calvin Klein and I don’t know anything. They were great photos. You looked hot.
Brandon: But you know what? When people approached me at first and almost kind of, you know, side eye like, oh my god, like, what about, and I was just like, what?
And what? Like, I don’t have a problem with this. Mm hmm.
Dr. Jess: Like, if, if Those were my dozens of dollars I earned for those photos. I made, I made 50
Brandon: bucks on it. You know, that’s my only regret is I wish I had Got royalties? gotten some sort of royalties or something for the use. But having, like, if I had just kept that internally and let it fester Mm hmm.
and I think not been open and confident about it because in [00:38:00] retrospect, yeah, I’m sure one day I’ll look back and be like, I’m very proud, like Meaning, I’m proud of, like, how I looked in those photos and reflect on how, you know, how young I
Dr. Jess: was. Okay, I’m just gonna say my favorite one is you in the boxer shorts, and you’re grabbing your junk, and it says cocky.
Yep. That’s my favorite one. I’m gonna go see if I can find it. I’m gonna use it as the podcast image. The podcast image.
Brandon: But it was just the idea that somebody was trying to shame me about that and me being open and just owning it made me Not like I just I was like, I don’t if you care about this then I probably shouldn’t have you in my life anyways Mm hmm.
So, you know either well, actually you need to get over it because
Dr. Jess: were you afraid of them finding
Brandon: out? I think initially there was some concern but the concern is only because somebody else made me feel bad about
Dr. Jess: it Right and most people you don’t get to see almost naked. No, so there’s a self consciousness there Yeah,
Brandon: and and now I I just feel like live your life man.
All right, I’m gonna go dig up
Dr. Jess: those photos
Brandon: Live your life feel good about it because you get one shot. That’s it.
Dr. Jess: Absolutely All right last comment from [00:39:00] somebody who wrote in and they say I always learn from rejection. What could I do differently? How can I grow? I’m not hard on myself. It’s not like oh only if I’d done ABC.
It’s just like alright I’ll get up, I’ll do better, I’ll be better, that’s, and that’s how I am for work. Okay. But then they go on to say, For my relationships, it’s harder, it cuts deeper. I feel I do everything for my family and my husband, and when they don’t show appreciation, or when he doesn’t make time for me, when he doesn’t have the energy, I take it hard.
That’s where I’m hoping you can help me. Hmm. Okay, well first I hope all the insights from, that we’ve kind of gone through today are a little bit helpful. I would add, if you think about, you know, use You said that they don’t show appreciation or they don’t make time. If I were you, something I would try is thinking about like, how do I want to feel?
What is like the emotion that I’m hoping to evoke? Or what is the emotion I’m hoping to experience on my own or with my partner? So first and foremost, kind of just identify the feeling or feelings you’re looking for. And then I’d ask myself, well, what makes [00:40:00] me feel that way? Like, how do I make myself feel that way?
How can I ask my partner to help me feel that way? And what are other sources that help me to feel that way? And then if you can go and have that conversation and talk about, listen, I, I feel really loved or I feel safest or I, I want to feel these things this is what I’m doing about it and I would love if you could do this.
Right? I would love if, for example, you said doesn’t make time or doesn’t have energy. Like, I would love if you would block some time on Sunday. And then you might even get to a point where you say, you know, I would love if you initiated the blocking of time for quality of time in this relationship. And if it’s about time, do go back to the episode on quality time, because I thought that was a pretty good conversation.
It’s a very recent one where Brandon and I use this tool. to discuss what quality time means to us and how we spend our time. So, I hope that’s helpful. How do you want to feel? What makes you feel that way in terms of self, partner, and other sources? And hopefully that’s a place where you can start to really explore what it is you’re experiencing [00:41:00] when you feel rejected and what it is you’re looking for.
as an alternative. I thought it
Brandon: was great. All right. Nothing else to add to that.
Dr. Jess: Lots of great insights. Thank you so much to everyone who sent emails and messaged on Instagram. I really appreciate it. I have to say a big thank you to AdamandEve. com for their continued support to make this podcast possible.
Please do check them out. AdamandEve. com. code DRJESS50 ( 5-0) DRJESS50 to save 50 percent on almost any item and you’ll get free shipping and a bunch of other little free goodies along with it. AdamandEve. com. You know what
Brandon: I’m waiting to say. What? Tickle your pickle. Okay. AdamandEve. com. Why tickle your pickle? Because.
That’s my, that’s my
Dr. Jess: promo reel. Okay. So you can tickle your pickle. Dr. Jess. You can lever your beaver. You can. I don’t know. Now you’re just showing me up. I don’t know. I can’t think of anything that rhymes with carpet. Slurp it. I don’t know. I don’t know. We’re getting there. All right, folks. Adam and Eve dot com.
code DRJESS50 ( 5-0) DRJESS50 . Thank you for hanging with [00:42:00] us. I know this is a, a sensitive topic. Hopefully it’s helpful and hopefully there’s something for you to take away and put into practice either in the way you think or behave or relate or start a new conversation tonight because you’ve got this. Yeah, for sure.
Wherever you’re at, folks, have a great one.
Outro: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your sex life, improve your life.
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How to Manage Rejection Part 1
27 jul 2023· Sex With Dr. Jess
Rejection is a life skill. This week, Jess and Brandon revisit a previous conversation about how to deal with someone who pulls away without explanation. They share their own experiences, and weigh in on how to manage the “in-between” when you’re not together but haven’t quite split up.
Big thanks to our sponsorsÂ AdamandEve.comÂ â€” use code DRJESS to save!
And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts,Â Spotify,Â Podbean,Â Google Podcasts, Amazon Music &Â Stitcher!
Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
How to Manage Rejection Part 1
Episode 327
[00:00:00] Jess O’Reilly: Hey, hey, we are running a repeat podcast today on the topic of rejection because it’s, it’s a week of rejection emails.
[00:00:10] Brandon Ware: If you’re going to rejection, that’s my jam. I’m totally like, let’s go. Let’s do this.
[00:00:14] Jess O’Reilly: It’s your specialty, receiving rejection or rejecting others.
[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: Both.
[00:00:18] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, really? Okay. Uh, anyhow, we received so many questions about dealing with rejection this week.
[00:00:23] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes these things come in waves and themes and questions about rejection in and out of the bedroom. And a while back, we covered this topic. So we’re going to do it again. And I’m going to share that episode with you, which is perfect for me because we are down at my family reunion. Over 60 of us, Chinese Jamaicans, Changs.
[00:00:40] Brandon Ware: This is where the rejection came in. I tried so hard to talk to people, but they just kept rejecting and not listening to me.
[00:00:46] Jess O’Reilly: Well, my family’s on transmit, not receive. We talk more than we listen. Anyhow, we’re down here. Lots of distractions, lots of food, so much chaos. So much love and I’m happy to get to enjoy it.
[00:00:57] Jess O’Reilly: So without further ado, we’ll throw it back to I think March 2022. Here you go.
[00:01:07] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.
[00:01:16] Brandon Ware: Welcome to sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your cohost, Brandon Ware here with my lovely other Dr. Jess.
[00:01:25] Jess O’Reilly: Hello. I’m glad you’ve stopped making those ASMR sounds. I can do it again for everyone. It’s really creepy, your tongue ASMR sounds.
[00:01:36] Jess O’Reilly: I like the sound. There you go. It’s the look of your tongue coming out of your mouth I don’t like. That’s not the point. Ah, well tonight… We’re having a quickie. It’s the way I like it. I know. Cool brag. Cool, cool brag, bro. We’re going to be talking about dating and what to do when someone pulls away. So not when they ghost you, but when they kind of back out out of nowhere.
[00:01:57] Jess O’Reilly: So I did this interview. And people had sent [00:02:00] in this hodgepodge of questions. Hodgepodge? You’re 90. Smorgasbord of questions about what to do when a love interest pulls back out of nowhere. So they said, for example, you’re hitting it off and then all of a sudden things change. Text messages are sparser.
[00:02:15] Jess O’Reilly: They used to text every day. They don’t initiate contact like they used to, but they still respond to you or they’re answering with like one word. Whereas they used to call and, you know, send essays, or they’re saying that they’re busy all of a sudden and don’t have as much time, but then they come back and they’re messaging you.
[00:02:31] Jess O’Reilly: So basically, they’re not communicating that they want to end things, but they’re sort of dragging you along so you feel rejected, but also confused. Okay. That’s a lot. Right?
[00:02:41] Brandon Ware: One word answers. Okay. Don’t you know when somebody texts you back? Okay. Okay.
[00:02:46] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, I hate when I write like a whole bunch of messages and then I just get cool.
[00:02:49] Brandon Ware: And then I give you a thumbs up.
[00:02:51] Jess O’Reilly: Although I kind of like when I do that to other people, especially like work things.
[00:02:55] Brandon Ware: Double tap.
[00:02:55] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, exactly. So we’re going to be talking about this. I think it’s kind of interesting. Uh, before we dive into, I guess, our thoughts and our insights and of course acknowledging that there is no one size fits all that with it, you know, you can’t really be an.
[00:03:08] Jess O’Reilly: expert in these things. I’ve just kind of heard from other people what works and what doesn’t work. Before we go there, I want to shout out adamandeve. com because if you are in the market for something that vibrates, something latex, something sexy, something lace, adamandeve. com is giving you 50% off, plus free shipping, plus a bunch of free goodies with code DRJESS.
[00:03:29] Jess O’Reilly: Please make sure you use that code because you’ll save the money and also they’ll know that you… You heard about them here, adamandeve. com.
[00:03:36] Brandon Ware: Yours is so, such an elegant way you just said that. I’d be like adamandeve. com because sometimes you need to get your pickle tickled.
[00:03:43] Jess O’Reilly: Mmm, that’s, that’s pretty good.
[00:03:44] Brandon Ware: I mean, straight to the point. Do you like If you have a penis.
[00:03:47] Jess O’Reilly: Do you like it tickled?
[00:03:48] Brandon Ware: No.
[00:03:48] Jess O’Reilly: Really?
[00:03:49] Brandon Ware: But some people do.
[00:03:50] Jess O’Reilly: Do you like it when I bat it around like a cat?
[00:03:51] Brandon Ware: I like it when you smack it real hard and I know some people do. I don’t.
[00:03:55] Jess O’Reilly: No disrespect. No yucking someone else’s self.
[00:03:57] Brandon Ware: No, I’m not yucking it.
[00:03:58] Brandon Ware: It’s just not my jam.
[00:03:59] Jess O’Reilly: I’m not smacking [00:04:00] your dick.
[00:04:01] Brandon Ware: Thank you for doing that. Thank you for not doing that.
[00:04:03] Jess O’Reilly: I think I told you I once had a woman in a class, like a blowjob class back when I first started who was like, should you paw it around like a cat does when it’s paused?
[00:04:11] Brandon Ware: Yeah, just let your nails grow out and then just give it a good, good scratch.
[00:04:16] Jess O’Reilly: Have you ever cut your penis?
[00:04:17] Brandon Ware: Uh, no, but I think I’ve told you I had somebody cut my penis.
[00:04:21] Jess O’Reilly: No.
[00:04:21] Brandon Ware: I think I’ve talked about it here.
[00:04:23] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, you know, I don’t listen. I,
[00:04:24] Brandon Ware: clearly.
[00:04:25] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t remember because I hear so many stories.
[00:04:27] Brandon Ware: There was a woman that I was dating and, and she pulled way too hard. Like she was pleasing me and she just yanked on it way too hard.
[00:04:37] Jess O’Reilly: She cut it?
[00:04:37] Brandon Ware: It like repeated friction burn.
[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: Oh, was there blood?
[00:04:42] Brandon Ware: There was. Soreness. I can’t remember if there was blood, but you know, you’re sitting there and I’m just happy that somebody was tickling my pickle.
[00:04:50] Jess O’Reilly: Were you though? Was that actually good?
[00:04:51] Brandon Ware: At the time I was like, this is great. Somebody’s touching my junk.
[00:04:54] Brandon Ware: And then after I was like, this is not fun. I was like, oh, it’s so good. Stop. Stop.
[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: Did you finish?
[00:05:02] Brandon Ware: No, I didn’t. I finished it, but I didn’t finish. No. What? I finished the, the exercise. I told her to stop. Oh, okay. You ended it. I was so good.
[00:05:14] Jess O’Reilly: So you didn’t orgasm? No. Oh, okay. Because that would have burned.
[00:05:17] Brandon Ware: While she was pulling my penis off.
[00:05:19] Jess O’Reilly: Did you put aloe vera on it after so it stunk?
[00:05:22] Brandon Ware: Yeah. That smell. I’ve got aloe vera on some of my penis.
[00:05:26] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know what aloe tastes like but it doesn’t smell great.
[00:05:29] Brandon Ware: No, it does not smell great.
[00:05:31] Jess O’Reilly: Alright, enough about the aloe vera penises.
[00:05:34] Brandon Ware: Yeah.
[00:05:34] Jess O’Reilly: Let’s chat about this, this predicament, what to do when someone pulls away so they don’t fully break up with you and they seem to still want to make contact with you.
[00:05:43] Jess O’Reilly: What should you do? So they’re asking what should we do if this is happening to us? What should we keep in mind before taking action? And my first thought is don’t personalize the behavior. I think really like the way This person opts to communicate or act isn’t your fault, so don’t let it affect the way you [00:06:00] feel about yourself.
[00:06:00] Jess O’Reilly: Because I think sometimes when we find ourselves in these scenarios, we want to be validated. We want to, like, go to them and make them want us. We seek a reason that’s sort of rooted in self blame for other people’s behavior. Like, we think, like, oh, maybe I talk too much about my work, and maybe that’s why they’re not interested.
[00:06:16] Jess O’Reilly: But let me just tell you, other people’s poor behavior is not your fault. I think that’s a really important piece. And then. My thought also is, don’t spend too much time trying to, like, decode their behavior on your own. Um, maybe they’re really busy with work or family, and I think the only way to know is to go ahead and ask.
[00:06:34] Jess O’Reilly: To go ahead and send them a text message. If they keep saying they’re busy, say, Okay, I see you’re busy right now. Do you want to hang or do you want to take a break? Maybe reach out when you have more time. And kind of leave the ball in their court, yeah. Yeah, or you could say, like, you know, I, I like you, I want to hang, but if you don’t feel the same, I get it, let me know what’s up, so I know whether or not we’re on the same page.
[00:06:54] Jess O’Reilly: Like, I think there’s sort of a calling in of that type of behavior, because maybe they’re going to say, yeah, you know what, I’m struggling with Some mental health stuff right now, or I’ve got these responsibilities with my elderly parents and I, you know, maybe they don’t feel close enough with you yet to divulge.
[00:07:08] Jess O’Reilly: But I think if you kind of come from a place of vulnerability that says, you know, I’ve, I’ve got a thing for you, but if you don’t have that same thing for me, let me know. And hopefully. They’ll be honest.
[00:07:17] Brandon Ware: I mean, it’s hard to put yourself out there like that, but I, I think if you do, you know, the other person is probably going to hopefully approach in a way that will, you know, at least make you feel better, make, make, make, just make everything a little bit more understandable perhaps.
[00:07:29] Brandon Ware: Like just to piggyback off what you’re saying. I think when somebody, to me, it’s about sparking a conversation, it’s just like, what’s going on? Like, can you communicate with me? Because I don’t like feeling left in the dark,
[00:07:38] Jess O’Reilly: right? Instead of kind of going to your friends and saying, Oh, he did this. What does it mean?
[00:07:42] Jess O’Reilly: She said this. What does it mean? Because. When I say something versus when you say something versus when someone else acts the same way or says the same thing, it might be coming from a different place. So I think we gotta just kind of go straight to the point and ask what’s up.
[00:07:56] Brandon Ware: I also like the idea of throwing the ball back into their court.
[00:07:59] Brandon Ware: Just being like, I’d [00:08:00] like to hang out. You’re expressing what you want. And if you’d like the same, please let me know when you’re ready. Because I think about that if, you know, if we were dating and you were, and you said that to me, but like, okay, cool, let’s hang. You know what I mean? Even if I had been not ghosting you, if I’d been pulling back, it could have been for work, it could have been family, could have been all those reasons that you just mentioned.
[00:08:19] Brandon Ware: And then it’s, you’re, you’re like, you’re reminding me, Hey, I’m here. I’d like to spend time with you, but I’m not going to chase you until, you know, you respond. I’m giving you the baton. Let me know.
[00:08:29] Jess O’Reilly: Right. And I think that’s why that first piece around not blaming yourself is so important because when you feel like, Oh, I’ve fallen short, I have some sort of a deficit that has resulted in their behavior.
[00:08:39] Jess O’Reilly: Then you, you try, I don’t want to say you try too hard, but you’re almost willing to do more than that. That person who is semi ghosting you deserves. And so the next question I received along the same vein is they want to know why do people do this? And I do, I think there are many reasons why people pull back instead of just communicating.
[00:08:55] Jess O’Reilly: I think that number one, there is a cohort of people out there who have been taught that they ought to play games like, Oh, you’ll be more attractive if you’re less available. I got to hate that so much. It really is. And so I think that’s why we nip it in the bud, hopefully, and you find out if they are game players, because people don’t like to be called out on their stuff, or called in, or whatever we want to call it.
[00:09:15] Jess O’Reilly: So I do think that there’s a small percentage of people who are playing games. And then I think the other side is that I don’t think many of us have learned how to communicate our needs clearly. So rather than setting a verbal boundary and saying like, hey, I actually do like hanging out with you, but I just…
[00:09:30] Jess O’Reilly: Don’t want to chat every day. Or, you know what, I am seeing other people as well and I need more space. We communicate through withdrawal. And honestly, like, I think we’re all guilty of this. I can think about times in my life, so many times, where I wish I had been more straightforward with people. And it may have seemed like I was playing games, and let me be clear, it’s my responsibility.
[00:09:50] Jess O’Reilly: And I feel badly for, you know, anytime that I was unclear with somebody or hurt feelings. And people, when there is some sort of a break off, even if it’s not a break up, because you weren’t [00:10:00] together together, there’s still a sense of rejection. And so the more clear you are with someone, the more they can get some closure.
[00:10:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I mean, I think we’ve all done it, like you just said. I mean, I’ve been guilty of it. And it goes back to, for me, it goes back to communication. It goes back to having what’s, what you think are going to be uncomfortable conversations. And I think once you put it out there, I’ve always, I’ve found very often that that uncomfortable conversation feels so much better when it’s done.
[00:10:25] Jess O’Reilly: I know. And I honestly, I mean, there’s There are still conversations in my life, and there probably will be for the rest of my life, that I continue to avoid, right? That I kind of skirt around, so, you know, yes, some people are playing games, and some people are struggling, and I’m not saying it’s okay, and it doesn’t negate your feelings, which obviously, I’m are, are valid and real when you’re feeling uncertain and like half rejected I think for some people can feel worse than reject because you’re still hoping you still have that glimmer of hope that they’re going to come back or they’re going to watch you and so then there were more questions coming in around.
[00:10:58] Jess O’Reilly: What is the healthiest way to approach it? Like, what can we do? And again, I think it’s about asking for clarification directly and also not playing games in response, even if they’re playing games. Because some of us, listen, we’ve all got ego to protect. And so when somebody plays a game with us, we might be inclined to kind of fight fire with fire.
[00:11:18] Jess O’Reilly: So again, language like, hey, do you still want to hang? No pressure. Let me know either way so I can make plans.
[00:11:25] Brandon Ware: I remember dating a woman. And she totally played games and I was, and she said that I was playing games. And in retrospect, I was like, I realized that I have ghosted you or not that I ghosted. I was just very busy with work and with school because I was in a university at the time.
[00:11:42] Brandon Ware: And, you know, two weeks went by and we hadn’t really communicated to too much. And then I finally was like, Hey, I. You know, I’m sorry, where are you? And she kept dodging my calls and she, I remember her saying now, yeah, no, really, no, seriously, like this is pre cell phone. And then when I finally did get ahold of her, she’s like, well, now you know how I feel.
[00:11:59] Brandon Ware: And I was [00:12:00] so surprised because I was remember thinking to myself, I wasn’t trying to make you feel any way. And then if she had just communicated that to me from the onset, like I’d like to hang out with you, I’d like to spend more time with you, whatever I would have been, I can, I just can’t right now because I’ve got exams and I’ve got work and I’ve got, you know, volunteering or whatever it was that I was doing, but I didn’t know.
[00:12:18] Brandon Ware: And then she, you know, the playing the game in return was such a surprise to me when I found out I was like, yeah, this is not cool. And actually made me think even less of the relationship.
[00:12:28] Jess O’Reilly: Do you think you bore some of the brunt of responsibility there where you could have said from the onset because I remember when I met you that you worked like three jobs in university, plus you’re in school full time.
[00:12:37] Jess O’Reilly: Do you think you could have let her know?
[00:12:39] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I definitely and I’m completely responsible for that. I wasn’t clear with maybe what my existing responsibilities were and more importantly, also probably wasn’t being very flexible with. fitting the relationship into my life. And I think I just didn’t know.
[00:12:56] Brandon Ware: So it was okay. I’m going about what I did before. Now I’m seeing somebody and I just didn’t have a lot of time. And had I just expressed that from the onset, well, this is my schedule. I’ll do my absolute best because I do, you know, it is important. I do want to see you. I really love spending time with you.
[00:13:10] Jess O’Reilly: Did you?
[00:13:10] Brandon Ware: No.
[00:13:11] Jess O’Reilly: Well, you don’t want to say things that aren’t true, right?
[00:13:15] Brandon Ware: Well, no. And I’m just saying if I did enjoy spending time and honestly, maybe I wasn’t. Spending time for purposefully,
[00:13:21] Jess O’Reilly: right? So you weren’t prioritizing.
[00:13:23] Brandon Ware: No, but I mean, this is also 20 some odd years ago
[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: Absolutely, and I’ve like there’s no judgment for me.
[00:13:28] Jess O’Reilly: I’ve done worse more recently Like I really do struggle with being totally straightforward with people and it has for me personally and everybody’s different It’s a fear of disappointing. It’s a fear of upsetting It’s a response where I want to avoid conflict and so I have to be really, really thoughtful and intentional about, you know, when I say yes to things and how I say yes and how I let people down.
[00:13:51] Jess O’Reilly: And, you know, I catch myself all the time still saying yes to things and then regretting it. And I was supposed to have, I think we talked about this. I was supposed to have a pause on [00:14:00] yeses for the first few months of the year. I failed. I failed. I got, I got to talk to Carla, my therapist, about this and tell her I let her down.
[00:14:09] Brandon Ware: I’m not trying to highlight your failures, but like, that was an epic failure.
[00:14:12] Jess O’Reilly: I suck.
[00:14:13] Brandon Ware: You were supposed to like. Not take things on and you took on so much.
[00:14:17] Jess O’Reilly: I know I know and some of it’s been really fun
[00:14:20] Brandon Ware: Yeah,
[00:14:20] Jess O’Reilly: it’s been really fun. So so I just think okay, so the healthiest way to approach it ask for clarification again That language of like hey, do you still want to hang?
[00:14:28] Jess O’Reilly: No pressure? Let me know so I can make plans and then I also think knowing what you want is Important and then asking for it because for example, what is it you want from them? Right? Like you’re, you’re saying you don’t want, I don’t know, to always have to initiate, but are you looking for a serious relationship?
[00:14:43] Jess O’Reilly: Like if you’re going to ask them about their level of commitment and they express a desire to continue with this relationship or situationship, let them know what you want from them specifically. For example, do you want them to text you to make plans so that the onus doesn’t fall solely on you? If so, say so.
[00:15:00] Jess O’Reilly: Do you want them to let you know when they’re busy so you can plan accordingly? Then speak up and say that. Do you want to get a better idea? Of what the future holds for an actual relationship, again, make the space to talk about it in a way that works for both of you. I think one of the challenges for people who feel they’re strong at communicating or, you know, who have done it, for example, a lot of self development and learning is that we can have a tendency to expect people to do things the way we do them.
[00:15:26] Jess O’Reilly: Right? And just because we want to communicate in a certain way, I have to catch myself all the time with that. Like, just because there’s a strategy that works for me doesn’t mean it works for other people. And in fact, because of some of my neuro atypical stuff, what I love is what everybody hates and what feels normal.
[00:15:43] Jess O’Reilly: But you and I know this, but we somehow we make it work. And then I think the other piece is In response to this, you have to learn to work through your own feelings, right? You’re going to feel rejected and ignored at times. And these are, these are universal experiences and you, you can’t avoid or eradicate them entirely because even in really [00:16:00] happy, loving relationships, we all deal with rejection.
[00:16:03] Jess O’Reilly: So we have to make space for other people to say no and learn to deal with our own stuff. You know, what does it feel like in your body when someone sets a boundary that doesn’t feel good for you? Right? What hot thoughts come up when you feel rejected? How can you self soothe? What sources of support can you seek?
[00:16:21] Jess O’Reilly: Like, for example, from friends. And what other coping strategies can you use? Whether it’s distraction, or meditation, or exercise. So I think that’s a really important piece for anything we struggle with. But especially around rejecting, rejection. Really knowing, what does it feel like in your body? What are the hot thoughts?
[00:16:38] Jess O’Reilly: How do you self soothe? What are your support systems? And what are your coping strategies? And those are things, I think, questions or prompts that so many of us haven’t really worked through. Because rejection isn’t something we do a lot of talking about.
[00:16:49] Brandon Ware: Oh, are we talking about rejection? That’s my jam.
[00:16:53] Jess O’Reilly: Why?
[00:16:53] Brandon Ware: I’m in, I’m in sales.
[00:16:55] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:16:55] Brandon Ware: I know what rejection’s all about.
[00:16:57] Jess O’Reilly: Okay.
[00:16:57] Brandon Ware: It sucks.
[00:16:59] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:16:59] Brandon Ware: Don’t feel good. Is that, is that my technical definition?
[00:17:02] Jess O’Reilly: So when you get rejected at work, like you lose a client or something like that, how is that different than if, for example, I make you feel rejected?
[00:17:11] Brandon Ware: There’s more at stake in this relationship. So it seems a lot more serious. Um, when, you know, the rejection happens within the relationship than when it does with the client. With a client, I think I’ve been, I’ve learned to compartmentalize where it’s, you know, there are a number of different reasons as to why that person might reject you.
[00:17:26] Brandon Ware: It could be, they don’t like you, it could be that, you know, it could be something related to finance. It could be something related to experience. It could be a number of things. Whereas in the relationship, there’s this vulnerability where you’ve rejected me and you know me. You, you know who I am, and I’ve disappointed you in some way.
[00:17:43] Brandon Ware: So for me, there’s a level of severity. There’s a much more consequential level of, of involvement in the relationship when I’m rejected.
[00:17:52] Jess O’Reilly: If, if I reject you, you said something like, I know you. Oh, you said that you’ve disappointed me. Do you think that all rejection is rooted in [00:18:00] disappointment?
[00:18:00] Brandon Ware: Well, we’re getting into the therapy side of things here.
[00:18:03] Jess O’Reilly: I’m just curious.
[00:18:04] Brandon Ware: I haven’t given it enough thought. I think that. Yeah, I think a part of it, yeah.
[00:18:08] Jess O’Reilly: So for example, let’s take a really simple rejection like, I don’t want to have sex with you one night. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What are you making fun of me? Because I always want to have sex with you. Screw you. Go ahead.
[00:18:19] Brandon Ware: No, no, no. Let’s play this out. Let’s play this out.
[00:18:21] Jess O’Reilly: No. Let’s say I say no. How does that feel for you? Imagine,
[00:18:25] Brandon Ware: imagine in the world somebody doesn’t want you. I never picture that. I couldn’t, I’m just kidding. . Oh, believe me, you have no idea. I’ve been rejected, but I think most of my failures are on my own doing.
[00:18:35] Brandon Ware: Um,
[00:18:36] Jess O’Reilly: so when I say no to sex, if I were to say no to sex,
[00:18:39] Brandon Ware: that to me, because it’s in, there’s a physical, like, like again, I don’t take it, I don’t take that as personally. Mm-hmm. , whereas, If the rejection or if, if the, yeah, I think a lot of it is rooted in disappointment when I think about it, but when it’s the rejection involves something else because for sex to me, I feel like it could be that you’re not feeling great right now.
[00:18:57] Brandon Ware: It could be, you know, your mind is, you’re distracted. Perhaps you’re just, you’re not in the mood or whatever. I don’t, I don’t take that personally. Whereas if it was a rejection that had to do with something, maybe a little bit more. where I’m just, there’s more vulnerability. I feel like it would, it would cut a little deeper.
[00:19:11] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s really interesting. So you’re comfortable with sexual rejection with me and it sounds to me, if I understand correctly, it’s because you don’t personalize it. It’s not about you. When do you feel rejected? In this relationship or just in general? No, I’m interested in this relationship.
[00:19:27] Brandon Ware: I don’t feel rejected.
[00:19:29] Brandon Ware: I mean, I can’t think of anything that comes to mind right off the top of my head. I think the rejection, I don’t, I can think of when I feel like I’ve rejected you, but when you’ve rejected me, honestly, it’s so rare. I can’t even think of anything.
[00:19:41] Jess O’Reilly: No, the reason I ask, there’s got to be something like, it’s not like I never reject you.
[00:19:45] Brandon Ware: No, no, no, not at all. Of course, all of those things. I’m just like put on the spot. I can’t think of an example on the spot.
[00:19:51] Jess O’Reilly: I just, I’m interested because you said it means I’ve disappointed you. Mm hmm. So you attach rejection and disappointment. I do attach the two, yeah, for sure I do. When do you feel you’ve disappointed [00:20:00] me?
[00:20:00] Brandon Ware: Whoo, um, I feel like I’ve disappointed you when there’s something like a core belief that’s been violated. Hmm. Um, you know, you know, that we talk a lot about, I mean, we talk a lot about patriarchy, race, you know, some of these things and, and I screw up and when I feel like I’ve done something to hurt you in that respect, it’s that white fragility, man, it’ll come out and like the disappointment.
[00:20:27] Brandon Ware: is really hard to deal with. So
[00:20:30] Jess O’Reilly: you feel disappointed in yourself. You think I’m just, is that rejection to you?
[00:20:33] Brandon Ware: No, I mean, again, I think we’re getting a little bit off topic. I’m just speaking off the cuff. No, it’s perfect. But, um, it’s, uh, I do, I do tie the two together. I think that rejection.
[00:20:43] Brandon Ware: Disappointment. It goes back to when you, at the beginning, you were talking about, you know, people ghosting people. And sometimes I wonder too, is there an element of people pleasing that comes into the, that comes into play, right? Where you don’t want to, you don’t want to respond to someone because you always want to please people.
[00:20:57] Brandon Ware: And maybe you have to disappoint somebody by saying, you know, I really like you, but I’m not.
[00:21:02] Jess O’Reilly: Well, I struggle with that in work, like saying no to brands and saying no to different deals. There’s this idea, of course, in business, you have to do everything. But there are a lot of things that aren’t a fit for me for one reason or another.
[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: And sometimes it actually is about the brand. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it’s about my schedule. Sometimes it’s just not in alignment financially or whatever it may be. But every time I have to say no, I find it really, really hard. And it’s, I was just thinking about how you’re very comfortable with sexual rejection, because you have so much practice.
[00:21:29] Brandon Ware: I’ve had so much… I’ve had… I
[00:21:33] Jess O’Reilly: joke about never rejecting you, but that’s, I’m sure that’s not the case. I just feel like, you know, if you have the energy, I’m like, Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to rally, especially cause you don’t make me do much. So, I’m, I’m thinking about your comfort with sexual rejection and how that can be parlayed into these other areas.
[00:21:50] Jess O’Reilly: So for example, if you feel you’ve let me down, what skills or tools or self talk that you’ve used to manage sexual [00:22:00] rejection can be parlayed over to that area? Like with sexual rejection, you’re like, it’s not about me. Um, she may not just be in the mood. Perhaps this isn’t an indication that she doesn’t want to feel connected to me.
[00:22:09] Jess O’Reilly: This isn’t an indication that she doesn’t love me. And I wonder if some of that. Language could be helpful for managing or kind of attenuating the, uh, the effects of rejection and other arenas with me. Just a thought.
[00:22:21] Brandon Ware: I mean, I think always reflecting on my own, like my own involvement in the, in the discussion and the rejection and whatever it is, it’s like, I’m thinking about your response to me, but I’m also thinking about the underlying issue.
[00:22:32] Brandon Ware: Like, is it something where I should feel disappointed where I should feel like I’ve, you know, disappointed you, I should feel rejected. I should feel any of those things. So I’m just been learning. Before I respond, try to take a beat and think about things and maybe analyze them on your own, because I’m really quick.
[00:22:49] Brandon Ware: I think a lot of people were very quick to respond back, fire back. I mean, it’s like you need to defend your position. That’s the first thing you need to do as opposed to, I need to take a minute and just think about things. It doesn’t have to be a minute. I need to take five seconds and just not fire my mouth and say something back.
[00:23:06] Brandon Ware: It’s like, just think about it. Is there validity to this your own thoughts or maybe what somebody else is saying and then analyze for just a moment and then Move forward.
[00:23:17] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and maybe it’s an opportunity for growth right rather than self criticism or the idea that you’ve let yourself down Maybe it is an opportunity for growth.
[00:23:24] Jess O’Reilly: I mean, I’ll admit I I obviously hate rejection We’re hardwired not to like rejection right when we think of humans yeah, and survival and the fact that we’ve always depended on one another any experience of rejection can send you into a state of fear where you feel like, you know, that old reptilian brain is thinking, I’m not going to be able to survive without the support of these people.
[00:23:44] Jess O’Reilly: And so that’s why even little things, you know, actually it was, I went to, to a restaurant today, a restaurant at my corner that I go to all the time and I’m a huge fan of. And, uh, the host was really, really rude to me. Really? Yes. And you know which place I’m talking about. They’re always super nice. Um, one host [00:24:00] was about to seat me and this other host shook her head and said, no.
[00:24:03] Jess O’Reilly: No space. And he said, yeah, there is. And she said no. And she wouldn’t even, she didn’t acknowledge me. She didn’t make eye contact. And I felt like this rush in my body. And I know what that is. It’s the sense of rejection. And then I’ll just finish the story. This other waitress that I love came over and took me up the back stairs to give me a table.
[00:24:21] Jess O’Reilly: And I don’t, I imagine it wasn’t about me, but it may have been about me, right? It may. And especially, you know, when You know, I’m maybe the only person of color walking into that restaurant. Definitely I start to think, like, is it they don’t want my people here, right? And then my other friend came in who’s also Chinese.
[00:24:36] Jess O’Reilly: She doesn’t want to seat us, right? And then we got saved by the lovely waitress who gave us the table.
[00:24:41] Brandon Ware: Was it the one, the one that we normally?
[00:24:42] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, no, that was not another one. There’s two that you and I normally have. Anyhow. Not to make this about me, but I did, my podcast. Uh, she, that, that sense of rejection, like I felt it in my body.
[00:24:54] Jess O’Reilly: And then with you, yeah, I’m, I feel a lot of pressure. Listen, I’m a sexologist. I’m supposed to like be able to seduce you and take care of you. And quite frankly, I know how. And I know what to do, but sometimes I can’t push myself through the discomfort to do it. And actually, in the future, I’d like to do the seduction interview with you.
[00:25:13] Jess O’Reilly: I was thinking of doing it today, but it’s really long and we have to do a quickie version, but maybe we’ll split it in two. But I was thinking about, you know, what holds me back from seducing you? What holds me back from initiating? And we know that in… relationships where people have happy sex lives, there tends to be shared initiation.
[00:25:30] Jess O’Reilly: There are, of course, exceptions, like some people love to only initiate and some people love to only receive. I mean, I definitely hear from more people who like to be on the receiving end, because it feels good to be wanted. But to go back to rejection, I think we have to remember that rejection can be difficult rejecter and the rejectee.
[00:25:47] Jess O’Reilly: And we need to practice rejection with grace. And, uh, you know, sometimes your desires won’t align with somebody else’s. Sometimes your feelings will be hurt. And we can’t avoid all hurt feelings. And I think if we go back [00:26:00] to this situationship where they’re partly ghosting you. I think the longer you drag it out and string someone along, the more intense the rejection can feel.
[00:26:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, I agree with that. So if we can try and kind of be honest from the onset, we’re better off. And I also think it’s important to remember that the longevity of a relationship doesn’t determine its quality. It’s also okay. to have short term relationships, but they require this honesty and vulnerability and grace.
[00:26:25] Jess O’Reilly: So if you are afraid to let someone know that you’re not interested, think about whatever was good in the relationship, right? Or a situationship or whatever. I mean, there’s all types of relationships, the connection and don’t feel like. You know, there’s any failure in ending it. And again, if you’re not interested, be upfront, let them know.
[00:26:42] Jess O’Reilly: And then on the receiving end, you have to accept that you won’t always get a full explanation. And that’s a hard thing with like ghosting, with closure. We often believe that closure is attached to having all of our questions answered and receiving detailed explanations about why a situation ship dissolved.
[00:26:58] Jess O’Reilly: But closure is actually tied to how we work through our own feelings. It’s something we can cultivate on our own without relying on an external source, to fill in. all the gaps because you’ll hear that all the time. Like I’ll hear people say, I just want closure. And ultimately you can’t send one more text or, you know, ask for one more phone call or ask for one more meetup.
[00:27:16] Jess O’Reilly: If this person has been clear that they’re done.
[00:27:18] Brandon Ware: I do think that again, I’m just going to pull back to my work. It does. Like I’ve learned over the years, it’s like closure. You’re not going to get all the answers. Like you just said, it’s like, you just have to be okay. Not knowing why somebody didn’t choose you.
[00:27:30] Brandon Ware: And you know what? That’s okay. Because just like, again, for me with work, there’s another opportunity out there. So there’s another person, there’s another relationship, there’s another whatever it is you’re looking for. You just have to move on. You know, like you said, learn from it. And then, you know, hopefully the next one is, is each one gets a little bit better.
[00:27:47] Jess O’Reilly: And hopefully people aren’t playing games, but I mean, no matter what rejection, it hurts. It sucks. And I think it’s good practice. Like I, I actually think about how throughout, I guess my childhood and my teen years and I probably my twenties, [00:28:00] maybe my thirties, um, there was a lot of avoidance of rejection for me.
[00:28:03] Jess O’Reilly: Like I didn’t do things that I wasn’t good at. I did the things that I was good at and stuck with them.
[00:28:08] Brandon Ware: I like to practice rejection because I feel like it would be a release, like cathartic, you know what I mean? It’s like somebody and then I would just be like, why don’t you go yourself?
[00:28:18] Jess O’Reilly: What? He loves me.
[00:28:19] Brandon Ware: Just practicing rejection. That’s how I would respond. Oh, like I tell you. Yeah, you reject me And then I’d be like tell you where to go
[00:28:26] Jess O’Reilly: I guess, I guess. I’m just kidding. Again, I just, I think, um, you really hit the nail on the head around sex, that it’s not about you. And so this is a big piece, is all of people’s behaviors, whether we call this like half ghosting or uh, there’s other words for it, like um, zombying, where they kind of disappear and come back.
[00:28:43] Jess O’Reilly: Houdini ing. That’s fully disappearing and still ghosting. That’s what I do at parties. It’s true. You do Houdini, but that, that’s a different thing. You, you show up the next morning, but I just, I think this is an important conversation. So I hope folks, um, think about it kind of on their end and maybe share it with friends who are struggling with what they might perceive as games in, in dating and relationships.
[00:29:05] Jess O’Reilly: And also think about how you practice rejection, again with those questions around what does it feel like in your body when someone sets a boundary that doesn’t feel good for you? Uh, what do you label rejection? Right? Is it disappointment? Is it attached to other feelings? What hot thoughts come up when you feel rejected?
[00:29:20] Jess O’Reilly: Like, for example, are you afraid you’re unlovable? Are you afraid you’re unworthy? Are you worried that they’re never going to come back to you? And then how can you self soothe? What are your sources of support? Like, what does your support network look like? And what other coping strategies really work for you?
[00:29:33] Jess O’Reilly: Like, for some people, it really is about distraction. For other people, it’s meditation or diving into your work or exercise. And any of those can work for, you know, for a period of time. Sounds good. All right. Well, thanks for sharing your rejection stuff with me, babe.
[00:29:47] Brandon Ware: No problem. And am I doing the outro?
[00:29:50] Jess O’Reilly: Ready? Ready.
[00:29:51] Brandon Ware: If you need your pickle tickled, go to adamandeve. com. Use code Dr. Jess. Is there, is there another one?
[00:29:59] Jess O’Reilly: For [00:30:00] 50% off. Almost any single item plus free shipping. And there goes our sponsors. Thanks, babe.
[00:30:08] Jess O’Reilly: Folks, wherever you’re at, have a good one. I’m going to go not tickle your pickle.
[00:30:13] Jess O’Reilly: You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, improve your sex life, improve your life.
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