Avsnitt
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Political analyst Trita Parsi examines the deep contradictions at the heart of contemporary US foreign policy, tracing the consequences of decades of military intervention from Iraq and Syria to Iran. The discussion explores how the US invasion of Iraq helped create the conditions for the rise of ISIS, the rapid normalisation of Syria's new leadership despite its origins in Al-Qaeda-linked movements, and the broader erosion of public trust in mainstream media coverage of global conflicts. Parsi argues that sanctions on countries such as Iran and Syria overwhelmingly punish civilian populations while failing to achieve their stated political objectives. He also analyses the influence of the military-industrial complex on Washington's decision-making, explaining how economic and political incentives perpetuate a cycle of intervention even as public support for endless wars declines. The conversation turns to Iran, where Parsi challenges widely circulated narratives about protests, political unrest and regime change, arguing that foreign interference and media distortions have often obscured a more complex reality. Throughout the interview, broader questions emerge about empire, propaganda, media credibility and the limits of military power in shaping political outcomes. The result is a wide-ranging examination of how interventionist policies have reshaped the Middle East, why many official narratives are increasingly being questioned and what a more restrained and realistic approach to international relations might look like in an era marked by geopolitical instability and declining confidence in traditional institutions.
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Robin Andersen, professor emerita of media studies at Fordham University, examines how US media coverage of Gaza functions less as journalism than as a system of narrative management, transforming military violence into a language of self-defence while obscuring the historical realities of occupation, blockade, and dispossession. Drawing on her recent book The Complicit Lens (2026), Andersen argues that mainstream outlets relied heavily on Israeli military claims, anonymous intelligence sources, and reporting conventions that concealed agency and normalised civilian suffering. Rather than treating these distortions as isolated failures, she situates them within a broader history of wartime propaganda, comparing contemporary Gaza coverage to the media’s role in legitimising the Iraq War and advancing narratives during the War on Terror. The discussion explores how concentrated media ownership, corporate interests, and institutional dependence on official sources shape the limits of acceptable discourse, narrowing the range of perspectives available to the public during periods of conflict. Andersen argues that journalists who challenge dominant narratives often face marginalisation, while eyewitness accounts, humanitarian testimony, and independent reporting are subordinated to the claims of political and military authorities. The result, she contends, is a media environment that privileges power over accountability and framing over factual complexity. At the centre of the conversation is a critique of how language, sourcing, and editorial priorities influence public understanding of war, revealing the extent to which modern news institutions can become active participants in manufacturing consent rather than independent watchdogs holding power to account.
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Alex Byrne, Lawrence S. Rockefeller Professor of Philosophy at MIT and author of Trouble with Gender: Sex Facts, Gender Fictions (2023), argues in this conversation that the contemporary backlash against the biological definition of “woman” stems from two distinct and often conflicting intellectual currents: a longstanding feminist suspicion of biological essentialism, and a newer push, largely from trans activism, to redefine sex itself as socially constructed or non-binary. Byrne traces how this confusion has hardened into orthodoxy across academia and medicine, making dissent professionally dangerous even for scholars working from well-established science. The conversation examines the toll this has taken: researchers no-platformed, careers destroyed, and a climate in which even raising basic biological facts can trigger threats and reputational ruin. Byrne discusses MIT’s Civil Discourse Project, which he co-leads, as evidence that controversial topics can still be debated productively when expectations are set honestly and both sides are willing to show up. He reflects on the reluctance of gender-affirming care’s strongest proponents to defend their position in open debate, and on the growing body of evidence against pediatric medical transition. Asked whether a “truth and reconciliation” reckoning is possible, Byrne is doubtful that public admissions of error will come, but sees hope in quieter institutional change: medical bodies revising guidance, universities loosening restrictions on academic freedom, and the slow erosion of a consensus he believes is no longer defensible.
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Elena Poniatowska, Mexico’s most celebrated journalist and one of the most significant literary voices in the Spanish-speaking world, argues in this conversation that the crisis of contemporary journalism is inseparable from the collapse of critical reading—and that both are symptoms of a deeper cultural abandonment. Born in Paris in 1932 to a French-Polish father and Mexican mother, Poniatowska contends that her formation as a writer was shaped by displacement, by learning to listen to those rendered voiceless by history, and by understanding that journalism must be an act of solidarity before it is anything else. Widely credited with helping to establish the genre of testimonio in Latin American letters, she transformed the voices of the marginalised into literature that forced an entire nation to confront its own silence. She maintains that her landmark work La Noche de Tlatelolco was not a journalistic achievement but a moral obligation, and reflects on her decision to refuse the Xavier Villaurrutia Prize, asking who would award the dead. Poniatowska insists that the greatest threat to literature and journalism today is not artificial intelligence but the disappearance of patience—the willingness to sit with a text, a story, or a life long enough for meaning to emerge. At 94, she affirms her belief in the innate goodness of human beings as not a sentiment but a necessity.
Elena Poniatowska, la periodista más célebre de México y una de las voces literarias más significativas del mundo hispanohablante, sostiene en esta conversación que la crisis del periodismo contemporáneo es inseparable del colapso de la lectura crítica—y que ambos son síntomas de un abandono cultural más profundo. Nacida en París en 1932 de padre franco-polaco y madre mexicana, Poniatowska afirma que su formación como escritora estuvo marcada por el desplazamiento, por aprender a escuchar a quienes la historia había silenciado, y por comprender que el periodismo debe ser ante todo un acto de solidaridad. Ampliamente reconocida por haber contribuido a establecer el género del testimonio en las letras latinoamericanas, transformó las voces de los marginados en literatura que obligó a una nación entera a confrontar su propio silencio. Sostiene que su obra emblemática La Noche de Tlatelolco no fue un logro periodístico sino una obligación moral, y reflexiona sobre su decisión de rechazar el Premio Xavier Villaurrutia, preguntando quién iba a premiar a los muertos. Poniatowska insiste en que la mayor amenaza para la literatura y el periodismo hoy no es la inteligencia artificial sino la desaparición de la paciencia—la disposición a permanecer con un texto, una historia o una vida el tiempo suficiente para que emerja el significado. A los 94 años, reafirma su creencia en la bondad innata de los seres humanos no como un sentimiento sino como una necesidad.
English transcript:
SAVAGE MINDS — Elena Poniatowska
Julian Vigo (00:00:15):
Welcome to Savage Minds.
Julian Vigo (00:00:26):
I am your host, Julian Vigo.
Julian Vigo (00:00:30):
Today’s guest is Elena Poniatowska Amor,
Julian Vigo (00:00:33):
daughter of a French father of Polish origin, Jean E.
Julian Vigo (00:00:37):
Poniatowski, and Mexican mother Paula Amor.
Julian Vigo (00:00:41):
She was born in Paris in 1932.
Julian Vigo (00:00:46):
She has practiced journalism since 1953 at the newspapers El Día, Excélsior, Novedades, and La Jornada.
Julian Vigo (00:00:57):
She is the first woman to receive the National Journalism Prize.
Julian Vigo (00:01:02):
Among her works is La Noche de Tlatelolco,
Julian Vigo (00:01:05):
a classic since its publication, for which she was awarded the Xavier Villaurrutia Prize,
Julian Vigo (00:01:12):
which she refused, asking who was going to award the dead.
Julian Vigo (00:01:17):
Her novels and stories include La Flor de Lis,
Julian Vigo (00:01:20):
De Noche Vienes and Tlapalería,
Julian Vigo (00:01:24):
Paseo de la Reforma,
Julian Vigo (00:01:26):
Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío,
Julian Vigo (00:01:28):
The Life of a Mexican Soldadera,
Julian Vigo (00:01:31):
Querido Diego Te Abraza Quiela, Tinísima, winner of the Mazatlán Prize in 1992, La Piel del Cielo,
Julian Vigo (00:01:40):
winner of the Alfaguara Novel Prize in 2001, and El Tren Pasa Primero,
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about the lives of Mexican railway workers,
Julian Vigo (00:01:52):
winner of the Rómulo Gallegos International Novel Prize in 2007. Leonora won the Premio Biblioteca Breve Seix Barral in 2011. El Universo o Nada (2013) is the biography of
Julian Vigo (00:02:07):
astrophysicist Guillermo Haro. Ondas de la Niña Mala is her first poetry collection, and
Julian Vigo (00:02:14):
her children’s books include Boda en Chimalistac, La Vendedora de Nubes,
Julian Vigo (00:02:20):
El Burro que Metió la Pata, Sansimonsi, illustrated by Rafael Barajas el Fisgón, and El
Julian Vigo (00:02:27):
Niño Estrellero by Fernando Robles, and El Charito Cantor by Osvaldo Hernández.
Julian Vigo (00:02:34):
Her most recent novel, El Amante Polaco, portrays the last king of Poland, Stanisław August
Julian Vigo (00:02:41):
Poniatowski. Translated into 20 languages. Gabi Brimmer and Las Mil y Una, the story of
Julian Vigo (00:02:48):
Paulina,
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address social issues.
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After receiving honorary doctorates from UNAM and UAM,
Julian Vigo (00:02:57):
she was awarded them from the University of Puebla,
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Sonora, Estado de México,
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Guerrero,
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Chiapas, and Puerto Rico.
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She also received honorary degrees from the New School for Social Research in New York,
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Manhattanville College, and Florida Atlantic University in the United States, and from
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Paris 8,
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La Sorbonne, and Pau-Pyrénées, as well as the Maria Moors Cabot Prize for Journalism at
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Columbia University, New York, in 2004, and from the Universidad Complutense, Madrid, in
Julian Vigo (00:03:32):
2015.
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She received the French Legion of Honour at the rank of Officer, the Gabriela Mistral Prize from Chile, and in
Julian Vigo (00:03:41):
2006, the Courage Award from the International Women’s Media Foundation.
Julian Vigo (00:03:43):
In 2013 she was awarded
Julian Vigo (00:03:49):
the Miguel de Cervantes Prize for literature in the Spanish language, and she received the
Julian Vigo (00:03:55):
Belisario Domínguez Medal in 2022.
Julian Vigo (00:03:58):
This is the highest honour granted by the Senate of the Mexican Republic, along with the
Julian Vigo (00:04:05):
Carlos Fuentes International Prize for Literary Creation in the Spanish Language in 2023.
(00:04:12):
I welcome Elena Poniatowska to Savage Minds.
Julian Vigo (00:04:19):
I wanted to begin with a memory I have of you.
Julian Vigo (00:04:22):
In 1993,
Julian Vigo (00:04:25):
I think,
Julian Vigo (00:04:27):
or 94 —
Julian Vigo (00:04:28):
one of those two years —
Julian Vigo (00:04:29):
I was in Puebla,
Julian Vigo (00:04:31):
Cholula,
Julian Vigo (00:04:32):
teaching at the Universidad de las Américas.
Julian Vigo (00:04:35):
Yes.
Julian Vigo (00:04:36):
And you came to give a talk at an observatory — I believe it was Tonantzintla.
Elena Poniatowska (00:04:44):
Yes, of course.
Elena Poniatowska (00:04:46):
Yes, I remember it, and
Julian Vigo (00:04:49):
you made a great impression on me that day. But I must confess that your entire life’s work made a great impression on me — not only on me. I wanted to begin with your formation, your life, because you were born in France and
Julian Vigo (00:05:12):
how do you remember your childhood in France, and what elements of that world did you bring with you when you arrived in Mexico in 1942?
Elena Poniatowska (00:05:21):
Well, thank you very much for your interest.
Elena Poniatowska (00:05:29):
I can tell you that I was born in 1932 in Paris, France, because my mother Paula Amor married
Elena Poniatowska (00:05:42):
Juan Poniatowski, who held a noble title — that of prince —
Elena Poniatowska (00:05:54):
because the last king of Poland was Stanisław Poniatowski, who was, I believe, one of
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:07):
the lovers —
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:09):
one of the younger lovers of the Empress of Russia, Catherine the Great.
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:21):
My mother was a woman born also in Paris, of Mexican origin, who left
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:32):
France because of the Mexican Revolution
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:36):
and went to live with her parents — Pablo Amor and Elena Iturbe de Amor — in
Elena Poniatowska (00:06:49):
Biarritz, and they later moved to Paris. My mother always spoke Spanish with a French accent. She had two sisters who also lived in France for a long time,
Elena Poniatowska (00:07:07):
and they were rather Frenchified. She met my father Jean Poniatowski in Paris and
Elena Poniatowska (00:07:20):
married him, and I was born in 1932 in Paris.
Elena Poniatowska (00:07:25):
I would like to know
Julian Vigo (00:07:31):
more about this experience, because as you probably know — especially Americans and Canadians — they think everyone wants to come to their countries. But something they don’t know until they travel is that in Mexico, Honduras, and all of Latin America there is a great deal of immigration, people from every country in the world. Why not?
Elena Poniatowska (00:08:01):
Her mother was in France; my mother was Mexican, born in France. Her family — she had a grandmother, my mother’s great-grandmother, who was Russian, and in general her father was educated in England, so they were
Elena Poniatowska (00:08:29):
Mexicans — Amor is a Mexican surname — but they were very closely tied to Europe. For my mother, living in Europe was very natural because
Elena Poniatowska (00:08:49):
she first attended a boarding school in Switzerland, in Lausanne,
Elena Poniatowska (00:08:56):
and then was in Paris. At a Rothschild ball she met my father Juan
Elena Poniatowska (00:09:07):
Poniatowski and married him in 1931,
Elena Poniatowska (00:09:17):
or perhaps at the beginning of 1932, because I was born on the 19th of May 1932.
Elena Poniatowska (00:09:29):
My sister was born in 1933.
Julian Vigo (00:09:34):
As a child who spoke French and had to learn Spanish, in what way did language become your first tool for survival?
Elena Poniatowska (00:09:47):
Well, I also know English and French. Language, for me — learning Spanish in Mexico — was obviously about communicating with people in the street
Elena Poniatowska (00:09:56):
and with friends at school. But French remained my mother tongue, and
Elena Poniatowska (00:10:03):
later I dedicated myself to speaking Spanish with the people at home, with the Mexicans
Elena Poniatowska (00:10:14):
I met at school.
Elena Poniatowska (00:10:23):
Curiously, I attended an English school called the Windsor School, but I learned Spanish
Julian Vigo (00:10:38):
in the street — one always learns Spanish better in the street. You learn so much from people in Mexico. I found people very warm and open. On the other hand, for Mexicans in my country, it’s not the same at all.
Julian Vigo (00:10:59):
What was the first moment you felt that writing was the only possible way to understand the Mexico around you?
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:11):
Well, I would never say it was the only possible way.
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:17):
I think that at twenty,
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:22):
twenty-one years old, returning from studying at a convent of nuns, I had the
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:30):
good fortune to be able to start writing at a newspaper called, at that time,
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:42):
Excelsior.
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:43):
They asked me to submit a daily article,
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:48):
an interview,
Elena Poniatowska (00:11:51):
a chronicle, and I did so with enormous enthusiasm and great pleasure, because it allowed me
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:00):
to know Mexico much better, and also to meet great figures of Mexico such as
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:09):
Diego Rivera,
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:11):
José Clemente Orozco, actresses like Dolores del Río and María Félix, architects like
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:20):
Luis Barragán, and writers — even writers of my own generation, or slightly
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:31):
older than me — such as Juan Rulfo,
Elena Poniatowska (00:12:38):
Rosario Castellanos, Carlos Fuentes, and of course Octavio Paz.
Julian Vigo (00:12:46):
What a rich life! María Félix — what a figure!
Julian Vigo (00:12:52):
How was your experience beginning in journalism in the early 1950s in a predominantly male environment?
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:05):
Well, I was truly very lucky, because people were very kind and
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:14):
even affectionate towards me. No one ever refused me an interview. I was able to reach Alfonso Reyes, Octavio Paz,
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:25):
the great architect Luis Barragán, José Vasconcelos the philosopher, and all were very
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:40):
kind and cordial with me, as were important actors like Ignacio López
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:51):
Tarso,
Elena Poniatowska (00:13:52):
and of course those I already mentioned — Dolores del Río, María Félix — and singers, and also many visitors who came from Europe, the United States, or Latin America to perform in Mexico.
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:20):
Did you know El Indio Fernández?
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:23):
Yes,
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:24):
of course —
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:25):
I interviewed him,
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:26):
I knew El Indio Fernández, who by ten in the morning was already offering me a tequila, which
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:35):
I did not drink, as I’m not accustomed to drinking. And also many other
Elena Poniatowska (00:14:47):
famous actors of that era, like the comedian Cantinflas, whose
Julian Vigo (00:14:56):
real name was Mario Moreno. Cantinflas — I know his work. Wow. And you were in Mexico during the same period as Luis Buñuel?
Elena Poniatowska (00:15:06):
Yes, I ended up with Luis Buñuel — yes, we had a great friendship
Elena Poniatowska (00:15:15):
because out of affection he came to have lunch at my house several times, so I saw him on many
Elena Poniatowska (00:15:24):
occasions. We even went together to the prison of Lecumberri to visit, for example, a
Elena Poniatowska (00:15:33):
Colombian who had committed an offence and was imprisoned — his name was
Elena Poniatowska (00:15:42):
Álvaro Mutis.
Julian Vigo (00:15:45):
And you have lived through and narrated great social transformations.
Julian Vigo (00:15:51):
Do you think that today’s digital democratisation of public opinion helps social justice, or does it rather dilute real struggles into mere narratives of identity and likes?
Elena Poniatowska (00:16:08):
Well, I think the Mexican Revolution,
Elena Poniatowska (00:16:15):
led by a man like Emiliano Zapata, was extraordinary in redistributing the lands and haciendas of Mexico and in giving all Mexicans
Elena Poniatowska (00:16:32):
access to better education, better formation, a better life. I consider that
Elena Poniatowska (00:16:46):
Emiliano Zapata was one of the great heroes of Mexico, even though he personally took away the haciendas of my grandparents, the Amors and the Iturbes.
Julian Vigo (00:17:06):
What did you learn from the great intellectuals of your youth?
Julian Vigo (00:17:08):
You mentioned Juan Rulfo, Alfonso Reyes, and many others.
Julian Vigo (00:17:15):
What influenced your decision to dedicate your life to letters?
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:20):
No, they did not influence my decision to dedicate myself to letters.
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:26):
I met them later.
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:30):
I began as a journalist, a modest journalist, at the newspaper Excelsior in 1953 —
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:42):
I think 1952 or 1953. Very young. I had come from an education at a convent of nuns in
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:53):
Philadelphia, and I decided
Elena Poniatowska (00:17:57):
to write chronicles and interviews to get to know Mexico better. I came to know those figures through my work as a journalist, and because I could question them
Elena Poniatowska (00:18:14):
in the language I knew and had learned as a child — at ten years old — which is Spanish. My other languages until then had been
Elena Poniatowska (00:18:22):
English,
Elena Poniatowska (00:18:27):
and French, which is my mother tongue.
Julian Vigo (00:18:32):
You are known for the testimonio.
Julian Vigo (00:18:36):
At what exact point did you feel that traditional fiction was not sufficient to capture Mexican reality?
Elena Poniatowska (00:18:47):
As I mentioned, I began by engaging with many valuable Mexicans
Elena Poniatowska (00:18:54):
who received me in their homes, gave me their opinions. At the same time as I received what they wished to give me,
Elena Poniatowska (00:19:04):
I observed how their homes were, how they treated the people around them — their wives, their children, their servants — and all of that helped me
Elena Poniatowska (00:19:22):
to know Mexico better. I also spent a great deal of time in the streets — that is, with the poorest people, whom I was able to reach
Elena Poniatowska (00:19:34):
through my own nature and also with the help of a great Mexican illustrator, Alberto Beltrán. In the street he made sketches of everything the Mexicans did — the newspaper vendors,
Elena Poniatowska (00:19:59):
the taco sellers,
Elena Poniatowska (00:20:03):
the women making corn tortillas by hand,
Elena Poniatowska (00:20:12):
the bakeries, and then the hardware stores where everything was sold — from nails to
Elena Poniatowska (00:20:22):
cleaning cloths — and all of that was a very vital and
Elena Poniatowska (00:20:32):
generous apprenticeship in learning to see the lives of working Mexicans.
Julian Vigo (00:20:40):
But it is an art — to be able to listen to people, to their voices.
Julian Vigo (00:20:53):
How did you learn to listen to the voice of the other?
Elena Poniatowska (00:20:58):
Well, I think it is a natural inclination.
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:03):
It is not learned.
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:05):
It is not forced.
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:06):
It is a way of being.
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:10):
I am far more interested
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:11):
in speaking of what others do, how they do it, and who they are, than in speaking of myself, my sensations, my emotions. And I have done this from a very young age, so it has become a habit — it is part of my daily life.
Julian Vigo (00:21:36):
Do you believe that the testimonio is essentially an act of political resistance?
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:44):
I think so.
Elena Poniatowska (00:21:45):
It helps enormously to know the thinking of those who have no power, who are not in power, who do not consider themselves political, who are not leaders — although I did have the great privilege of interviewing leaders and very important figures in Mexico,
Elena Poniatowska (00:22:14):
such as, for example, the Spanish refugee of the Civil War, Luis Buñuel.
Julian Vigo (00:22:26):
And how was the process of gathering the voice of Jesusa Palancares?
Julian Vigo (00:22:32):
How long did it take you to absorb her story?
Elena Poniatowska (00:22:38):
Well, it was a privilege. I heard her — she was doing laundry in a popular building, a building where many Mexicans lived who had no
Elena Poniatowska (00:22:56):
economic resources. Everything she said caught my attention enormously. I approached her and asked if I could visit her at her home,
Elena Poniatowska (00:23:13):
which was a very poor house, obviously far from the area where I lived. And so I went to
Elena Poniatowska (00:23:26):
see her once a week. We became friends, and she began telling me her life. And that is how
Elena Poniatowska (00:23:36):
the novel Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío came about. When it was published,
Elena Poniatowska (00:23:43):
she asked me to give her ten copies to give to her friends —
Elena Poniatowska (00:23:52):
the bricklayers or the people she had worked with.
Julian Vigo (00:24:00):
And why did she choose the testimonial genre for Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío?
Julian Vigo (00:24:09):
It is one of the testimonial novels because —
Elena Poniatowska (00:24:16):
She didn’t really choose it — she didn’t. It was I who gathered her words and
Elena Poniatowska (00:24:27):
assembled them in the best way I could. But she did not choose it.
Elena Poniatowska (00:24:34):
She could not read or write. She did not know how to read or write. But she asked for the books, and I — the cover of the book, what goes on the outside, is the Santo Niño de Atocha, a small Christ child that she liked.
Julian Vigo (00:25:08):
And I saw it in the street, and so I put it there so she would be happy. But I was asking you about the testimonial genre — in 1969 it was not a common thing in literature.
Julian Vigo (00:25:26):
How was this novel received?
Julian Vigo (00:25:30):
I wonder if people were confused.
Julian Vigo (00:25:32):
Is it a true story or is it fiction?
Elena Poniatowska (00:25:35):
No, it was very well received. The book was greatly liked.
Elena Poniatowska (00:25:41):
Immediately many editions came out and it was translated into English and French.
Julian Vigo (00:25:51):
And I wonder if at that time — less so today — people were confused because they did not know if it was a completely real story or partly real. Because the novel Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío was categorised as a novel.
Elena Poniatowska (00:26:16):
Yes, that’s right, that is what it was.
Elena Poniatowska (00:26:19):
It is a novel based on a character — a woman who was in the Mexican Revolution, the life of a soldadera. To what extent is Jesusa an invented character or a real woman? I have said it, I have written it many times: Jesusa is a real character. After that I wrote
Elena Poniatowska (00:26:49):
other books about other women who were also real characters. I had the joy of knowing Jesusa in person, but for example Tina Modotti, the main character of
Elena Poniatowska (00:27:08):
the novel Tinísima, I did not know. And other novels about other women and other characters I also did not know.
Julian Vigo (00:27:22):
What lessons about the resilience of Mexican women did you learn from Jesusa that remain relevant today?
Elena Poniatowska (00:27:31):
All the women in Mexico whom I see and engage with and encounter in the street
Elena Poniatowska (00:27:41):
and who come to my house — they are women who have known how to struggle and continue to struggle. For example, one woman, Rosario Ibarra de Piedra, whose son was disappeared, and who searched all of Mexico — she is obviously one of the heroines who has most caught my attention.
Julian Vigo (00:28:10):
And especially in recent years — almost thirty years — the femicides and the disappearances of men and women. You are still fighting for your society, and I think literary words have the power to carry reality forward. I am thinking of La Noche de Tlatelolco — that was the first book of yours I read. It is incredible. I have no words. Thank you. It is one of the best books of the twentieth century, and I teach it. It is astonishing. Can you speak about why you began that work, and also for those listening now who do not know the history of what happened in Mexico?
Elena Poniatowska (00:29:03):
Well, in general I can tell you that I received letters from a prisoner in the jail — Jesús Sánchez García — and I began going to Lecumberri, which was called the Black Palace of Lecumberri. It was no palace — it was a prison with bars and cells. I asked permission from the prison director — I believe his name was Martín del Campo — and he gave it to me. That is how I went to gather life stories from men, and later, at the women’s prison, from women who had nothing to do with my own life, who bore no resemblance to what I had
Elena Poniatowska (00:30:03):
lived or what I would go on to live.
Elena Poniatowska (00:30:16):
That was an enormous enrichment for me, and a knowledge of an unknown Mexico that also helped me understand Mexico
Elena Poniatowska (00:30:31):
— a Mexico to which I owe a great deal.
Elena Poniatowska (00:30:35):
I think that everything I am I owe to the voice, and to the gift of their voice, that the poorest Mexicans gave me — those I was able to approach over years and years,
Elena Poniatowska (00:30:52):
going to the prison and sometimes going to their own very poor homes, called vecindades, which were located in the very neighbourhoods where the prisons were.
Julian Vigo (00:31:11):
How did you manage the pain and trauma of the testimonies you heard while assembling the book?
Elena Poniatowska (00:31:22):
Pain is not managed. To manage something is to seek something. Pain is simply assumed and lived. So the pain is in the words written in the book.
Julian Vigo (00:31:46):
And why did you choose the technique of a collage of voices rather than a linear, chronological narrative for this book?
Elena Poniatowska (00:31:57):
I have many other books that speak even of personal stories — books that contain much of biography.
Julian Vigo (00:32:13):
Yes, but it is very interesting how you wove those narratives together in this book. It is very beautiful, in fact.
Julian Vigo (00:32:24):
Was there any moment during the writing of La Noche de Tlatelolco when you felt fear or censorship?
Elena Poniatowska (00:32:33):
Well, there was always the dread of entering terrain unknown to me.
Elena Poniatowska (00:32:40):
Ultimately, I was educated —
Elena Poniatowska (00:32:45):
I spent time in the United States at a convent to be educated, not to become a nun — it was called the Sacred Heart Convent.
Elena Poniatowska (00:33:03):
When I came out I was speaking English. My mother tongue is French. And when I left there, my strongest desire was truly to know Mexico — the country I had arrived in at the age of ten, but in which I had received an education
Elena Poniatowska (00:33:30):
in both English and French, not in Spanish.
Julian Vigo (00:33:36):
More than fifty years later, what impact do you think that book has on the collective memory of young Mexicans today?
Elena Poniatowska (00:33:48):
Well, I think that is a question that should be put to them.
Elena Poniatowska (00:33:55):
What I can say is that I have received
Elena Poniatowska (00:33:59):
a great deal of affection from young people — many come to find me at my home, and I give lectures and talks with some frequency. Remember that I am already 94 years old and have lost the use of my left eye, which prevents me from seeing well. So within my limitations,
Elena Poniatowska (00:34:27):
I remain in contact with the people who want to see me, which for me produces great enthusiasm and which I experience as great support.
Julian Vigo (00:34:42):
The book you wrote is something very specific — evidently about Mexico — but it is still a book with which everyone can identify. If we look around today, where there are acts of political repression in almost every country in the world in one form or another — and I know your books are translated into many languages — I wonder whether the power of La Noche de Tlatelolco came from the form of the narration itself, not only from the fact that you confronted the government, the police, and justice. You narrated a story of the people seeking justice, yes, but literature itself was also seeking truth within its pages. There are wars everywhere, there is too much sadness. After the lockdown — which was less bad in Mexico than here in Italy — we are living through a very difficult moment. Do you sometimes think of this book as a model for dialogue, for collaboration, for moving forward together, the people united?
Elena Poniatowska (00:36:09):
Well, what I love about this book is that it has so many voices — many voices gathered from mothers of families, from children of political prisoners. For me it was a great learning experience to go to the prison in Mexico and see a world I did not know, to be accepted in that world, to go frequently to hear and gather the voices of political prisoners and of young people who
Elena Poniatowska (00:36:52):
didn’t even have strong political ideas but were imprisoned because they had stolen something in a market. It meant entering a world I was completely unfamiliar with,
Elena Poniatowska (00:37:13):
to which I did not belong. And it was an enormous lesson — a very generous lesson — in how the lives of others can be. That is what I have dedicated myself to over many years, because I remain a journalist and continue writing about disasters such as
Elena Poniatowska (00:37:39):
not only the massacre of the 2nd of October, but what the earthquake of 1985 meant for Mexico and the loss, for many Mexicans, of their families and their homes.
Julian Vigo (00:37:59):
Yes. You documented the earthquake of ‘85 — a moment when the Mexican government was completely paralysed and it was civil society that took control to rescue the city.
Julian Vigo (00:38:15):
Do you believe that peoples are still alone in the face of tragedy, or is that organic solidarity you described an invincible force?
Elena Poniatowska (00:38:29):
Yes,
Elena Poniatowska (00:38:29):
of course.
Elena Poniatowska (00:38:30):
I believe — that is why I believe in the invincible force of Mexicans, who help and support each other, who run to answer a cry for help. They are the ones who save themselves by saving others. I believe in that truth. It is a truth I lived, that I witnessed,
Elena Poniatowska (00:38:57):
and for me it is a lesson, a way of life.
Julian Vigo (00:39:03):
Does it reflect the structural abandonment of the seamstresses, the inhabitants, those who live in vecindades, and the poorest?
Julian Vigo (00:39:13):
How did you manage, in the midst of the chaos, the dust, and the mourning of those days, to earn the trust of people so that they would share their most painful and raw testimonies?
Elena Poniatowska (00:39:30):
Well, I have two physical advantages.
Elena Poniatowska (00:39:32):
I am small in stature. I frighten no one. No one is afraid of me. I can go anywhere. I am not someone who imposes anything at all, and I know how to listen. So by listening to others’ voices, I gather them, I keep them, I memorise them,
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:03):
and then I put them on paper.
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:06):
That is the most solitary and difficult moment — writing about what happens to others,
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:21):
their sorrows,
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:22):
their joys,
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:24):
their defeats and also their triumphs —
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:28):
and making books and articles from them. Because I am also a journalist since
Elena Poniatowska (00:40:38):
1953. I am now 94 years old.
Julian Vigo (00:40:47):
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Julian Vigo (00:40:49):
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Julian Vigo (00:40:54):
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Julian Vigo (00:40:59):
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Julian Vigo (00:41:01):
Now, let’s get back to it.
Julian Vigo (00:41:15):
Many consider that the earthquake of ‘85 not only brought down buildings but also toppled the myth of the Mexican State’s absolute control — marking the true birth of modern citizenship in the country.
Julian Vigo (00:41:33):
From your perspective as a chronicler —
Elena Poniatowska (00:41:40):
I think Mexicans have always had enormous character and enormous capacity to defend themselves
Elena Poniatowska (00:41:49):
in spite of their own poverty, or in spite of the total absence of outside help.
Elena Poniatowska (00:42:02):
There was in Mexico a Mexican Revolution,
Elena Poniatowska (00:42:08):
a country conquered by very cruel conquerors, and yet the country has continued to forge ahead and has continued to demonstrate its bravery and courage in all
Elena Poniatowska (00:42:28):
circumstances — one of which was, for example, the earthquake, in which the neighbours themselves
Elena Poniatowska (00:42:37):
helped each other before the State or the so-called government did anything.
Elena Poniatowska (00:42:46):
So I think it is a country with many very brave men, women, and children who save themselves, who know how to look after themselves.
Elena Poniatowska (00:43:03):
Of course there are people who don’t know how to do it, and there are people who sometimes end up
Elena Poniatowska (00:43:12):
in prison or in hospital. But in general Mexico is a country of very solidary people, people who help each other and defend themselves.
Julian Vigo (00:43:31):
What I love about your books in general is that you give voice — you shed light on the lives that are forgotten.
Julian Vigo (00:43:42):
Do you feel that in this book, for example, or in Nadie Me Verá Llorar, the author’s voice becomes more present or closer to her characters than in your earlier works?
Elena Poniatowska (00:43:56):
No,
Elena Poniatowska (00:43:57):
I think that element is present in all my works — in Hasta No Verte Jesús Mío, in the book about the 2nd of October, in the earthquake — and it is always present in everything I still do at the newspaper where I work. I am in a certain way a chronicler and a
Elena Poniatowska (00:44:21):
participant in the lives of other Mexicans.
Julian Vigo (00:44:27):
And I also notice that many of your works are about women — Tinísima, the life of Tina Modotti, a woman who lived so many lives in one. Leonora. And I wanted to ask — before we get to those books — about Querido Diego Te Abraza Quiela. Why did you choose that subject? Not only Diego Rivera but his first wife.
Elena Poniatowska (00:44:59):
I was moved to learn that in Paris, Angelina Beloff had gone to Mexico to see
Elena Poniatowska (00:45:12):
Diego Rivera, whom she had supported in Paris. He had lived with her and had lived
Elena Poniatowska (00:45:22):
off her, because she was the one with a salary. He was a very young painter without
Elena Poniatowska (00:45:33):
money, without resources. She helped him. And when she went to Mexico, she had also had
Elena Poniatowska (00:45:42):
the only male child that Diego Rivera ever had, who died of cold in Paris. And when she decided to go to Mexico — in a sense, to get to know the country of her lover — she decided to go to the Palacio de Bellas Artes because she knew that he
Elena Poniatowska (00:46:11):
would be there. And he walked right past her — past the seat, one of those red velvet seats in the Palacio de Bellas Artes, called butacas, in which she was sitting — he walked past and did not even recognise her.
Elena Poniatowska (00:46:40):
That story struck me deeply, and that is why I decided to write the small book —
Elena Poniatowska (00:46:55):
it is not a very long book —
Elena Poniatowska (00:46:58):
called Querido Diego, Te Abraza Quiela.
Julian Vigo (00:47:00):
In Tinísima, what was it that drew you to the life of Tina Modotti?
Elena Poniatowska (00:47:08):
In reality it came from a request to make a film. The cinematographer
Elena Poniatowska (00:47:17):
Gabriel Figueroa told me that a film was going to be made about Tina Modotti, the Italian woman who had been in Mexico. So I began interviewing all the people who had known
Elena Poniatowska (00:47:38):
Tina Modotti. And even when I was invited to France for a conference, I had the
Elena Poniatowska (00:47:47):
opportunity to go to Udine in Italy to meet and get to know the siblings of Tina Modotti —
Elena Poniatowska (00:48:00):
to see them, interview them, speak with them.
Elena Poniatowska (00:48:05):
Then when I was told that the film about Tina Modotti in Mexico was no longer going to be made because there was no money, I — who had gone at my own expense to that conference in France and another writers’ conference in
Elena Poniatowska (00:48:37):
Italy — decided to launch into writing the novel called Tinísima, because I had
Elena Poniatowska (00:48:48):
interviewed many old communists whom I had gone to visit
Elena Poniatowska (00:48:56):
in their various homes — generally very modest, very poor homes.
Elena Poniatowska (00:49:03):
I did not want to let them down, and so the novel Tinísima was published.
Julian Vigo (00:49:10):
And to what extent does Tina Modotti represent the struggle of the woman artist in the twentieth century?
Elena Poniatowska (00:49:19):
To the extent that she commits herself —
Elena Poniatowska (00:49:23):
she takes photographs of Mexico alongside Edward Weston, and then goes alongside
Elena Poniatowska (00:49:33):
Commander Carlos of the Fifth Regiment to Spain — she goes to the Spanish Civil War and becomes a nurse, caring even
Elena Poniatowska (00:49:52):
on the ground for the bodies that had fallen on the earth before taking them to the Red Cross — giving them first aid and dedicating herself to saving lives,
Elena Poniatowska (00:50:08):
or helping to save lives. I believe that many soldiers did not die thanks to the care of this woman
Elena Poniatowska (00:50:19):
who was in the trench following the doctors.
Julian Vigo (00:50:25):
You have said that the writer must be a bridge.
Julian Vigo (00:50:29):
Between what worlds do you think it is most necessary to build bridges — or should we be breaking bridges today?
Elena Poniatowska (00:50:38):
No, I think one should never break a bridge, for anything.
Elena Poniatowska (00:50:42):
I think one must
Elena Poniatowska (00:50:45):
communicate — that the most important thing in the life of any human being is dialogue. Peoples too must dialogue with others in order to know each other. I think Mexico must have a dialogue with the United States, and that many Mexicans who have returned from
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:09):
the United States because Trump
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:12):
did not want to receive them, has rejected them — well, they nevertheless had, with another nation or with the inhabitants of another nation, knowledge and dialogue.
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:28):
And that I believe is what is called,
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:34):
within Catholicism if you like, or within any religion by whatever name it may be called — that is human fraternity. The other
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:50):
is the one who exists and who awaits you and whom you must help, because perhaps
Elena Poniatowska (00:51:58):
one day you will need him to extend a hand to you.
Julian Vigo (00:52:05):
Trump is certainly a character, but I see the situation as too tragic for Americans — the United States, still my country — because the reality is that a large part of the Western world has absolutely no idea of the immense cultural, intellectual, and spiritual richness of Mexico.
Julian Vigo (00:52:30):
For me, it’s not only Trump —
Julian Vigo (00:52:32):
but Americans, Canadians, etc.
Julian Vigo (00:52:35):
know nothing about the sharpest chroniclers of this country. If you had to open the eyes of an international audience completely unaware of Mexico’s depth, what would you say is the most valuable treasure of Mexican identity that the rest of the world is missing?
Elena Poniatowska (00:53:01):
Well, I must say that many North Americans have come and written about Mexico — anthropologists and sociologists. We have Oscar Lewis
Elena Poniatowska (00:53:17):
and many others who have written about the poorest Mexicans, starting in Tepoztlán, a city near Mexico City, following them to the vecindades in the city where they took refuge and found very modest work. So yes, there have been North Americans
Elena Poniatowska (00:53:44):
who have written about the richness and beauty of Mexico, and their books are
Elena Poniatowska (00:53:53):
translated into Spanish and are admired and appreciated by Mexicans who are grateful that attention is paid to them. So one cannot say that no one who has come from outside has cared about Mexico — in archaeology, in anthropology, as well as figures like Frances Toor, who was a North American woman who created a magazine
Elena Poniatowska (00:54:39):
called Mexico Today and wrote extensively about Mexican customs and lived in Taxco.
Elena Poniatowska (00:54:41):
For example, a certain William Spratling enriched himself personally but helped many Mexicans in
Elena Poniatowska (00:54:51):
Taxco to learn how to work silver and sell silver. And still today many foreigners and tourists go to buy silver objects
Elena Poniatowska (00:55:10):
that come from a mine discovered by foreigners — and clearly also
Elena Poniatowska (00:55:20):
plundered, one might say, by foreigners.
Julian Vigo (00:55:30):
Because not everything is entirely good or entirely bad. But I was referring to the fact that — as you know, having been in the United States and many other countries — Trump and far too many people insufficiently educated about Mexico think that all Mexicans want to invade the United States. But the reality is otherwise. In Mexico there was a great cinematic tradition, for example. Mexican cinema has greatly influenced Hollywood — not only today but throughout history. The Oscar statuette itself was modelled on the body of El Indio Fernández. People do not know the depth of Mexican philosophy. I am thinking of Sor Juana, who contributed so much to poetry, theatre, even science — if we think of her letter to Sor Filotea, who was actually Manuel Fernández de Puebla. That dialogue was very important. Western feminists know nothing of these exchanges between those two figures. But for me Mexico has an enormous and very important force in the history of philosophy, science, and feminism. And I am thinking of Octavio Paz’s book on Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, called Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, or The Traps of Faith. You knew Paz closely. Did you have conversations with him about his perspective on this book — especially regarding the power dynamics of the Church and the silencing she suffered as an intellectual woman?
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:09):
No, but I think you are mixing very many topics into one question, and it is
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:18):
difficult to answer you because you are speaking of very diverse things that even
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:27):
happened in different centuries.
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:30):
Sor Juana — there have always been in Mexico,
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:34):
before Octavio Paz, people who dedicated themselves to reading,
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:40):
studying, and getting to know Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz.
Elena Poniatowska (00:58:45):
I will not add more names to those you mentioned, but there are many studies and many Sor Juana scholars in Mexico, as well as at the University of Santa
Elena Poniatowska (00:59:01):
Barbara, California, in Paris, in France —
Elena Poniatowska (00:59:04):
there are many studies on the great figures of Mexico — not only The Traps of Faith by the Mexican poet Octavio Paz. So these are studies that will continue and do continue. In California, for example, Sara Poot Herrera
Elena Poniatowska (00:59:32):
is dedicated to studying Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, along with many other scholars — I don’t know if she is still living — whose name was Rivers. All of these are studies that have been carried out in Mexico and outside Mexico.
Julian Vigo (00:59:55):
No, I was asking specifically about Paz’s book because you knew him and —
Elena Poniatowska (01:00:03):
I knew him,
Elena Poniatowska (01:00:04):
I admired him, and I also wrote about him. I have a book about him. I admired him,
Elena Poniatowska (01:00:12):
I knew him, his poetry dazzled me. And he is a man whom I have admired since getting to know him, and whom I also hold with affection.
Julian Vigo (01:00:29):
I asked about your relationship with him because sometimes it happens to me too — with other writers — one asks or someone asks me, “Why did you do that?” It is a dialogue. Because that book, The Traps of Faith, had something very important — not only for Mexico but it placed the image of Sor Juana before the world. Many people began to ask who this nun was because it is very important. I was asking about the presentation Paz gave of her — whether you had any dialogues with Paz from your own perspective.
Elena Poniatowska (01:01:20):
Well, yes, of course. But there were others who also spoke at great length about Sor Juana de la Cruz — other Mexicans before Octavio Paz, other Mexicans who, for example, also concerned themselves with indigenous peoples, such as a priest — Ángel María Garibay — who was also a Sor Juana scholar. So there are many studies on Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz and there are Sor Juana scholars in Santa Bárbara, for example, such as Doctor Sara Poot Herrera and others — a woman by the name of Rivers and many more.
Julian Vigo (01:02:16):
You have dedicated your life to listening and giving voice to those who have none, through the chronicle and literature.
Julian Vigo (01:02:26):
Today,
Julian Vigo (01:02:27):
with social media,
Julian Vigo (01:02:28):
it seems that everyone has a platform for opinions.
Julian Vigo (01:02:32):
But are we really listening?
Julian Vigo (01:02:36):
What happens to the power of the word when it becomes a constant noise, as in social media?
Elena Poniatowska (01:02:45):
I don’t know.
Elena Poniatowska (01:02:46):
I suppose it loses efficacy.
Elena Poniatowska (01:02:49):
But that depends on the activity of each human being.
Elena Poniatowska (01:02:58):
There are people — elderly people, for example, people already old — for whom life,
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:08):
even in institutions, in care homes, means turning the television on from morning until night and being entertained — that is, entertained without making the least effort of criticism or thought in front of
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:29):
the television.
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:31):
I have seen that this has been very important in keeping the elderly calm and
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:41):
allowing them to die little by little in institutions called health facilities, where they have this
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:52):
constant and rather sad entertainment. But
Elena Poniatowska (01:03:59):
as they say in Mexico: no hay de otra — there is no other option, or no other option has been found, or there are not enough people willing to dedicate themselves to attending to and caring for others. So I see it as an end of life
Elena Poniatowska (01:04:28):
for an individual who was once a thinking individual, who knew how to act,
Elena Poniatowska (01:04:37):
who knew how to elevate himself,
Elena Poniatowska (01:04:41):
to become a better human being. And I find it sad.
Julian Vigo (01:04:46):
Today, and for twenty years now, I have noticed as a university professor that students are reading less and less. Today, with so-called artificial intelligence — so-called because intelligence it is not — students are not reading. How can literature or journalism restore the true value and depth of words when we are in a world full of social media, opinions, and videos of a cat doing something funny?
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:31):
Your question is very difficult because I don’t have the answer.
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:37):
What I can say is that ultimately it depends on the teachers.
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:44):
It depends on students having a good teacher,
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:49):
because even I have seen in classes —
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:54):
in different classes —
Elena Poniatowska (01:05:57):
that many young people continue looking at their phones while the teacher is writing on
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:07):
the board, or speaking, or giving a class.
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:13):
So we shall see whether the destiny of young people will depend on what they
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:21):
learn from their phone. I don’t have a phone —
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:27):
I never bought one,
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:28):
never got one. Or whether they will be able to go beyond themselves
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:37):
and beyond above all what the phone wants to give you or teach you or not teach you
Elena Poniatowska (01:06:46):
or distract you from — because ultimately it is a distraction. Yes.
Julian Vigo (01:06:53):
Writing something to share — in quotation marks — they are sharing nothing in the end. I have noticed that many people are sharing articles they have not read. Young people are embracing identity politics and cancel culture
Julian Vigo (01:07:16):
in the absence of any engagement with material reality today.
Julian Vigo (01:07:21):
That is my fear —
Julian Vigo (01:07:23):
that the millennials,
Julian Vigo (01:07:26):
this generation of thirty-year-olds,
Julian Vigo (01:07:31):
are fixated on pronouns
Julian Vigo (01:07:36):
but do nothing to help their neighbour.
Julian Vigo (01:07:41):
They do nothing to fight for living wages.
Elena Poniatowska (01:07:46):
Well, not all of them.
Elena Poniatowska (01:07:49):
It’s a generalisation, of course.
Elena Poniatowska (01:07:54):
But I think you are right.
Elena Poniatowska (01:07:58):
It is a generalisation, because in any case there are human beings who live for others.
Julian Vigo (01:08:08):
We are in two camps today, because during the lockdown I noticed that many people — even on the right — were fighting for the poor in the United States, where I published. I could not publish a single article questioning the lockdown. That is when I started Savage Minds, because I was asking: what is happening? I no longer recognise this world in which the left is pushing people not to speak. We weren’t talking about the lockdown, and the right was speaking very openly. And I see that politically, left and right — there is no longer that dichotomy, so to speak.
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:02):
Yes,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:03):
I thank you greatly for your interest and I thank you enormously for this conversation. I feel animated,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:11):
I feel glad to hear what you are saying.
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:19):
But I do feel that,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:22):
as you say,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:23):
the speed,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:26):
the pace of all events,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:29):
the television —
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:32):
it sets critical thinking and reflection on events to one side,
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:41):
because everything must be immediate, mustn’t it?
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:46):
That is to say, everything ends in a second. Even the deepest interests sometimes last only
Elena Poniatowska (01:09:56):
a few — one might even think, as we say in Mexico,
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:01):
un ratito — just a little while. There is no continuity in ideas or
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:12):
even in purposes. There is something we all know called habit, and each person
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:21):
lives according to the habits they have established in order to keep going —
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:28):
to keep existing, if you will. To make it to night, fall asleep, and know that you will wake the following day. Or perhaps you won’t wake, because — well, for example, I
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:45):
am a person of 94 years old and I have no certainty that I will see the following morning. But
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:55):
what I do believe is that
Elena Poniatowska (01:10:58):
I believe in the innate goodness of every human being.
Elena Poniatowska (01:11:03):
I have to believe in it, because I need that hope.
(01:12:02):
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Journalist, grassroots organiser, and author Chris Kaspar de Ploeg pulls back the curtain on how Western legacy media operates to manufacture consent for imperialist, neocolonial, and xenophobic narratives. Moving beyond surface-level partisan bickering, de Ploeg utilizes a rigorous socioeconomic and class-based analysis to dissect the structural mechanisms that dictate modern news coverage. The discussion explores how Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky’s Propaganda Model manifests today, examining a media ecosystem where the audience is treated as the product rather than the client. De Ploeg shares his firsthand experience with media blackouts following the release of his book, Ukraine in the Crossfire, illustrating the real-world boundaries of acceptable discourse. His analysis then expands to the broader political economy of news—including corporate monopolies, advertising reliance, and state subsidies—before delivering a critical evaluation of the media’s disparate framing of state violence, civilian casualties, and ideological weaponisation in the Gaza crisis. Finally, the conversation tackles the illusion of choice in the digital age, analysing how algorithmic shadow-banning and digital oligopolies bottleneck dissent to provide an essential, uncompromising look at the forces shaping our perception of global conflict.
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Dr Angeliki Lysimachou, Head of Science and Policy at Pesticide Action Network (PAN) Europe, examines systemic failures in EU pesticide risk assessment that prioritise industry data over independent science. With a background in environmental toxicology, she scrutinises how regulatory loopholes—such as selective dismissal of genotoxicity, neurotoxicity, microbiome disruption, and low-dose carcinogenicity studies—enable the continued authorisation of hazardous substances like glyphosate despite IARC’s probable carcinogen classification and alarming findings from the Ramazzini Institute’s full-life-cycle trials showing increased leukaemia and tumours at supposedly safe exposure levels. Lysimachou highlights how corporate influence, ghostwriting, revelations from the Monsanto Papers, and statistical manoeuvering by conflicted experts undermine the precautionary principle embedded in EU law, resulting in “glyphosate deserts,” biodiversity collapse, and persistent PFAS metabolites like TFA contaminating groundwater for decades. Her analysis reveals a deeper structural bias where economic dependencies on pesticide fees, political pressures from member states, and industry lobbying trump public health protections, as evidenced by repeated 5- and 10-year renewals amid abstentions and U-turns like Germany’s. By mounting court challenges and pushing for agroecological transitions under the Farm to Fork strategy, she exposes how the current framework shields profitable broad-spectrum herbicides while externalising long-term costs of soil degradation, farmer health burdens (e.g. elevated lymphoma risks), and irreversible environmental damage onto society. Lysimachou’s critique underscores the tension between regulatory rhetoric and implementation, calling for genuine accountability and faster phase-outs of forever chemicals.
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Biljana Vankovska, a Macedonian professor of political science, international relations and peace studies at Cyril and Methodius University in Skopje, delivers a sharp systemic critique of declining Western hegemony in this wide-ranging conversation. She interprets the recent conflicts in the Middle East, particularly the Iran war and the Strait of Hormuz events, alongside the situation in Ukraine as structural turning points signaling the shift toward a multipolar global order. Rooted in her experience growing up in former Yugoslavia and the legacy of the Non-Aligned Movement, Vankovska rejects mainstream narratives that reduce global crises to the personal failings of leaders like Donald Trump or simple kakistocracy. Instead, she argues that the world is witnessing the violent death throes of hyper-imperialism and a declining global capitalist system. She deconstructs the so-called rules-based international order as a euphemism for arbitrary US diktat that masks ongoing neo-colonialism while whitewashing historical atrocities. Vankovska contrasts the media-driven fear, paralysis and moral bankruptcy prevalent in the US and EU with the historical optimism and strategic stamina of the Global South. Evoking Antonio Gramsci, she balances a pessimism of the intellect with an optimism of the will, defending legitimate resistance against the military-industrial-media-academic complex. Ultimately, she views the tragedies in Gaza and Iran not as isolated failures but as painful birth pangs of a new cooperative world order grounded in mutual sovereignty, trust, and emancipation from empire.
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Alex Taek-Gwang Lee, professor of philosophy and cultural studies at Kyung Hee University in South Korea, examines the deep tensions between Western Marxism, Stalinist orthodoxy, and the possibilities for communist thought today. In a powerful critique of Gabriel Rockhill’s work, Lee argues that reducing Western Marxism to mere CIA manipulation is historically reductive and ultimately serves as a gift to right-wing anti-communists. He traces the vital lineage from Georg Lukács’ theory of reification and class consciousness through the Frankfurt School’s critique of the culture industry, defending cultural and philosophical analysis as a necessary extension of Marxism rather than a betrayal of it. Lee develops his own original concepts of “weak technologies” and “planetary cybernetics” to diagnose how late capitalism has reified technology, desire, and subjectivity itself, while rejecting both nostalgic defences of actually existing socialism and liberal accelerationist fantasies. Drawing on Deleuze and his earlier works such as Communism After Deleuze and Made in Nowhere, he insists that communism remains a living, transformative idea—an ontological openness that demands we invent new people and new modes of existence against the current master signifier of capital. This dense, philosophically rich conversation reframes longstanding debates on the left and offers sharp conceptual tools for understanding AI-driven capitalism and the future of radical politics in the 21st century.
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Jillian Spencer, child and adolescent psychiatrist, examines the ideological transformation of modern medicine through her experience challenging paediatric gender treatment protocols and the institutional backlash by Queensland Health that followed. The interview evolves into a broader indictment of how liberal democracies increasingly discipline dissent behind the language of compassion, inclusion, and professional ethics. Spencer describes a medical culture where questioning the rapid expansion of gender-affirming interventions for minors became professionally dangerous, not because evidence had been conclusively settled, but because institutional consensus had already hardened into moral doctrine. The discussion repeatedly returns to the atmosphere of fear shaping hospitals, universities, and regulatory bodies, where clinicians privately express concerns yet remain publicly silent to avoid reputational destruction, accusations of bigotry or career ruin. What emerges is less a narrow debate over healthcare policy than a portrait of bureaucratic systems that reward ideological conformity while marginalising independent inquiry. Spencer depicts whistleblowing mechanisms as hollow structures incapable of functioning once institutions themselves become invested in preserving political narratives. The transcript also situates the controversy within a wider cultural shift across Western societies, where disagreement is increasingly pathologised and scientific uncertainty treated as social harm. Through Spencer’s account, medicine appears transformed from a field grounded in skepticism and evidence into one governed by managerial orthodoxy, emotional language, and activist pressure. Beneath the clinical specifics lies a darker warning about the shrinking capacity of public institutions to tolerate ambiguity, contested evidence and moral independence without resorting to professional punishment or social exclusion.
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EJRkJKXYJbDiJ69cKu3ZIda Susser, distinguished professor of anthropology at Hunter College and the CUNY Graduate Center, examines the Gilets jaunes (Yellow Vests) movement in France as a volatile yet transformative response to the deepening crises of neoliberalism, democratic erosion, and social fragmentation across the West. Drawing on years of ethnographic fieldwork in Paris, Saint-Denis, and provincial France, Susser argues that the movement disrupted conventional political binaries by creating forms of solidarity that exceeded traditional distinctions between left and right. Through concepts such as “commoning” and “thresholding,” she describes how precarious workers, retirees, migrants, and politically disillusioned citizens forged provisional alliances grounded less in ideology than in shared experiences of dispossession, police violence, economic exclusion, and social abandonment. Susser situates the movement within a broader historical trajectory of grassroots resistance, linking the Yellow Vests to Occupy Wall Street, the Indignados, Black Lives Matter, and earlier traditions of horizontalist organizing. She explores how the protests exposed the consequences of gentrification, rural decline, and the hollowing out of public life, while simultaneously generating new forms of mutual aid, including food collectives and neighborhood support networks during lockdown. The conversation also confronts the contradictions embedded within contemporary progressive politics, including disputes surrounding feminism, immigration, populism, and state authority, as Susser reflects on the increasingly unstable boundaries between emancipatory and reactionary movements. Framing the present moment as one marked by the resurgence of authoritarian tendencies and the normalization of state repression, she argues for the urgent construction of a new “historic bloc” capable of defending democratic space through collective struggle, civic participation, and radically inclusive visions of social justice.
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Abby Martin, an investigative journalist and advocacy filmmaker, exposes the catastrophic environmental and human costs of US militarism, arguing that the Department of Defense represents a singular, yet intentionally obscured, force of global ecological destruction. Drawing on her reporting for The Empire Files and her latest film, Earth’s Greatest Enemy, Martin discusses the institutional mechanisms that allow the military to remain exempt from international climate agreements, effectively functioning as a “blind spot” in mainstream environmental discourse while operating as the world’s largest institutional polluter. She challenges the “bipartisan consensus” for US imperialism, criticizing a “media blackout” orchestrated by corporate journalists—or “empire babies”—who normalize systemic violence while placing the burden of environmental responsibility on individual consumers. Extending the discussion beyond carbon emissions, Martin examines the toxic legacy of military operations, from the generational radioactive contamination caused by depleted uranium to the domestic betrayal of service members at Camp Lejeune. She contends that the current global atmosphere of “manufactured amnesia” masks the reality of an empire in its “waning” stages, which increasingly relies on emergency powers and state-sponsored censorship to maintain its grip amid growing public dissent. Reflecting on the ongoing crisis in Gaza and the historical precedents of US interventionism, Martin suggests that anti-imperialism and climate justice are naturally interlinked, viewing her work as a “tool in the arsenal” for movement building aimed at reclaiming transparency and justice within a crumbling global order.
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Peter McCullough, an internist, cardiologist, and epidemiologist, reflects on the political, medical, and social consequences of the COVID-19 pandemic, arguing that the global response fundamentally altered public trust in science, medicine, and democratic institutions. Drawing on his background in cardiovascular medicine and public health, McCullough discusses studies he believes demonstrate links between mRNA vaccines and myocarditis, sudden cardiac arrest, and broader cardiovascular complications, while explaining the biological mechanisms behind troponin elevation and inflammatory damage within heart tissue. He challenges mainstream public health narratives surrounding vaccine safety, criticizing what he describes as the suppression of dissenting medical voices and the failure of institutions to adequately investigate adverse events associated with mass vaccination campaigns. Extending the discussion beyond medicine, McCullough examines the broader political and cultural atmosphere that emerged during lockdowns, including censorship, social compliance, economic devastation, and the normalization of emergency powers across Western democracies. He argues that public discourse during the pandemic was shaped by coordinated messaging between governments, media organizations, pharmaceutical companies, and global institutions, creating a climate in which skepticism toward official policy became socially and professionally dangerous. Reflecting on athlete deaths, VAERS reporting controversies, vaccine mandates, and unresolved questions surrounding the origins of COVID-19 and the Wuhan laboratory, McCullough contends that the pandemic exposed deep contradictions within modern liberal societies concerning bodily autonomy, transparency, and informed consent. Yet amid this, he points to growing public skepticism toward institutional authority, suggesting that the long-term legacy of the pandemic may ultimately be a broader reevaluation of the relationship between citizens, governments, and public health systems.
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Nader Hashemi, Director of the Alwaleed Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, reflects on how his experience of the 1979 Iranian Revolution shaped a lifelong inquiry into the fraught relationship between religion, secularism, and democracy. Hashemi situates his intellectual trajectory within the tension between a Western secular framework—often equated with progress—and its very different reception across the Middle East, where it has frequently been associated with authoritarianism and externally backed regimes. He challenges dominant Western narratives about Iran and the region, arguing that media and policy discourses systematically erase the historical context of colonial intervention, coups, and geopolitical interests that continue to structure contemporary conflicts. From the Green Movement of 2009 to the Women, Life, Freedom protests, Hashemi examines the internal struggle for democratic reform under conditions of repression, economic sanctions, and external pressure, emphasizing how these forces have eroded the social base necessary for sustained change. Extending the discussion to Gaza, Israel-Palestine, and broader regional dynamics, he highlights the stark double standards in Western foreign policy and the persistence of imperial logics beneath the language of human rights. Yet, amid this, Hashemi points to a generational shift: younger audiences, shaped by social media and alternative information flows, are increasingly able to challenge entrenched narratives and recognize the contradictions at the heart of the so-called rules-based order.
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Daniel Levy, a political commentator and president of the US Middle East Project, argues that Netanyahu did not stumble into this war—he engineered it. For decades, Levy notes, successive Israeli governments tried and failed to pull the United States into a military confrontation with Iran. He traces what finally made it possible under Trump not to any coherent American strategy but to its opposite: the systematic hollowing out of the interagency process, expertise sidelined, and a small ideological cohort elevated whose interests aligned perfectly with Israeli leadership. Tracing this logic to its conclusion, Levy contends the result is a war serving Israel's ambition for regional hegemony far more than any plausible American interest. Dismantling the claim that attacking Iran was about nuclear threat management, he points out that Israel itself is an undeclared nuclear state and that Iran's supreme leader had issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons. Looking beyond the conflict, Levy asserts that any durable solution requires a decolonisation 2.0—a reckoning with the inequities of the post-colonial order. With American empire visibly fraying and Marco Rubio offering imperialism 2.0 as the alternative, he sees the burden falling squarely on middle powers and non-Western states to chart a different course.
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Daniela Danna, a sociologist and research fellow and lecturer at the University of Salento in Lecce, argues that gender identity legislation is not about protecting vulnerable people—it is about making biological sex legally invisible. Drawing on her analysis of the defeated Zan Bill in Italy and parallel legislation across the Anglophone world, Danna contends that the push to enshrine gender identity in law serves a dual purpose: it dismantles the legal foundations of women’s sex-based rights while opening a vast new market for pharmaceutical and medical industries that profit from lifelong hormonal dependency. She is particularly alarmed by the targeting of children, pointing to kindergartens in Germany already teaching gender fluidity and to Italy’s public gender clinics, which she argues are affirming rather than treating young people in distress. On surrogacy, Danna is equally unsparing: Meloni’s much-publicised ban, she suggests, is largely theatrical, with enforcement gaps so wide as to render it meaningless. Throughout, she traces a through-line between gender ideology, surrogacy, and capitalist logic—the reduction of bodies, and children, to commodities.
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Fiona Girkin, researcher and specialist in female dark personality traits, discusses her PhD findings on female psychopathy, covert manipulation, and the structural silencing of victims—particularly men—who suffer at the hands of toxic women. Girkin argues that female psychopaths differ fundamentally from their male counterparts in their methods: rather than overt physical aggression, they deploy relational aggression—rumour, social sabotage, gaslighting, and the cultivation of protective "posses"—making their behaviour extraordinarily difficult to prove or challenge. She introduces the concept of the "sleeper cell" psychopath: charming, likeable individuals who remain dormant until their power is threatened, then turn ruthless overnight. Her research focused on the community services sector—therapists, social workers, psychologists—where she found far more psychopathic individuals than anticipated, drawn by the covert power that caring roles confer over vulnerable people's lives. Girkin also addresses the professional backlash she faced after speaking publicly about comparable rates of male and female domestic violence, including losing her university position teaching police. She argues that feminist organisations have systematically suppressed recognition of female-perpetrated violence, leaving male victims without resources, disbelieved by courts, and vulnerable to legal weaponisation through divorce and parental alienation. Things are changing, Girkin contends, as female violence becomes less covert and harder to ignore.
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Richard D. Wolff, Professor of Economics Emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and co-founder of Democracy at Work, argues that the United States is living through the terminal phase of imperial overreach. Drawing on the history of empires from Persia and Rome to Britain, Wolff contends that no empire has ever escaped the arc of birth, expansion, and decline—and the US is no exception. Having emerged from World War II as the world’s undisputed economic hegemon, the US has spent decades in self-deluding arrogance, mistaking a historically anomalous post-war moment for permanent, God-given supremacy. The rot is now unmistakable: $35 trillion in debt, a proposed $1.5 trillion war budget, and a string of military defeats from Vietnam to Afghanistan. China, growing at two to three times the US rate for thirty consecutive years, has quietly displaced American economic dominance. The war on Iran—a civilisation far older than the Judaeo-Christian tradition attacking it—may prove the final overreach. With the Strait of Hormuz closed and NATO allies refusing to help, Wolff sees Trump as a latter-day Nero, fiddling while the empire burns. The solution, he insists, is redirecting military spending toward the American people.
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Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, 30-year Army veteran, former Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, and Senior Fellow at the Eisenhower Media Network, discusses the deep structural rot he believes is consuming American democracy and its military empire. Drawing on his experience from Vietnam through the Iraq WMD debacle, Wilkerson argues that the United States has become a force as much for evil as for good, and that the current war against Iran represents the most reckless and dangerous expression of that trajectory yet. He traces the unravelling of legitimate statecraft from the post-Cold War squandering of peace dividends, through 9/11 and the institutionalisation of torture under George W. Bush, to what he describes as the Caligula-like presidency of Donald Trump—whom he regards as history’s most brazen grifter and the architect of an illegal war of choice. Wilkerson raises urgent alarm about Pete Hegseth’s injection of Christian Zionist ideology into the Pentagon’s ranks, the militarisation of domestic law enforcement, the looming threat of cancelled midterm elections, and the very real spectre of a second American civil war. A searing, unflinching conversation with one of Washington’s most candid and consequential insiders.
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Nolan Higdon, author and Disinfo Detox host, dismantles the "aberration" myth surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, exposing his deep ties to US/Israeli/Russian intelligence, insider trading, and elite blackmail networks spanning politics (Trump, Dershowitz), tech (Thiel, Palantir), academia (Chomsky, Summers), and media. Higdon reveals how partial Epstein file releases coincide suspiciously with Trump's Iran strikes—launched amid 30% approval and domestic scandals involving ICE—serving as potential distraction from scrutiny over unreleased files and foreign influence (Adelson/AIPAC). He contrasts US corporate media's sanitised narratives of regime changes (Venezuela's Maduro/Flores kidnapping echoing Panama 1989) with international reporting showing Iran's technological resilience and Israeli military setbacks. He critiques NATO's militarised "media literacy" weaponising education against disinformation while shielding Israel-led wars, Gaza genocide denial, and DARVO "self-defence" claims. Higdon warns of AI surveillance eroding youth cognition/social bonds, big tech's eugenics ideology (Yarvin/Thiel), economic fallout from oil spikes, Greenland piracy, and empire's dehumanising normalisation of child trafficking. Urging diverse sourcing beyond legacy media's Politburo-style control, he reveals 2026's fractures—war profiteering and unaccountable power elites.
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Radhika Desai, professor of Political Studies and director of the Geopolitical Economy Research Group at the University of Manitoba, brings her historical materialist framework to bear on what she calls the “senile” or “moribund phase” of capitalism—marked by deindustrialisation, financialisation, speculative necromancy, ecological destruction, a precipitous decline in political leadership quality, and the imperial wars now ravaging Venezuela, Cuba and Iran. Desai traces the arc from Karl Marx’s monopoly phase thesis through the post-war golden age, the neoliberal turn and its miserly, punitive politics towards working people, to the present moment in which the US-Israeli war on Iran is accelerating the collapse of dollar hegemony and the everything bubble. She connects cultural neoliberalism—identity politics, DEI, pronoun politics—to a deliberate corporate strategy for generating a patina of progressivism while delivering nothing material to working people, with the professional managerial class administering this hypocritical regime. Desai addresses the BRICS question with characteristic nuance, distinguishing between countries that have genuinely rejected neoliberalism and those, like Modi’s India, whose multipolar rhetoric conceals a servile comprador relationship with Washington. Her analysis of the everything bubble, the Triffin dilemma and Iran-driven inflation carries a stark warning—when interest rates rise far enough to contain the oil shock, the dollar system will come down with them.
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