Avsnitt
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Guest Blake Boles
Official Bio: (From his website.)
Blake Boles is the founder and director of Unschool Adventures and the author of Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?, The Art of Self-Directed Learning, Better Than College, and College Without High School. He hosts the Off-Trail Learning podcast and has delivered over 75 presentations for education conferences, alternative schools, and parent groups. Blake and his work have appeared on The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, TEDx, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR affiliate radio, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
https://www.blakeboles.com
https://twitter.com/blakeboles
Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School? | Blake Boles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjMdjO4NNs
Show NotesJenna begins by stating that as her own children move into their teen years she finds it more challenging to find meaningful learning activities that will hold their interest. This is why she is excited to talk today with her guest Blake Boles. He has spent more than a decade working with teens while hosting an ‘Unschool Adventure Camp.’ He is also the author of the following books:
‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’,
‘The art of self-directed learning’
‘Better than college: How to build a successful life without a four year degree.’
He has contributed to many other publications as well.
Blake is the host of the Offtrail Learning Podcast and has given over 75 presentations to Alternative schools, educational conferences and parent groups.
He has been featured in:
The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
Jenna says she is excited to share Blake’s perspective on how to best support our teens quest for more autonomy and real world experiences. They will touch on mentorship and networking. Blake even shares a simple email structure that our kids can follow to connect with professionals in the fields that interest them. They also discuss the pushback that homeschoolers are receiving from experts who would like to see substantial regulatory practice here in the US for homeschooling families. At the end of the podcast Jenna says they will daydream a bit about the possibility of bringing adventure and challenges to communities all over the globe for our unschoolers. Perhaps it will inspire you to create one. Jenna hopes so!
Before we begin, Jenna wants listeners to know that she is still doing a book give-away. Just leave your review on Apple Podcasts, then email her and give her the screen-name you left the review under. She will put your name in a hat. (Yes, this is how it’s done!) The winner will win Blake Boles’ book ‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’ For every five reviews, she will give away one copy of the book. Also, if you would like to join Jenna on the podcast to discuss any of the topics discussed on previous shows, you can be a co-host! Please reach out if you are interested! Lastly, Jenna says that the podcast has been so critical in helping her find community and learn, but she is looking for even more ways to connect with everyone. Sharing our stories and experiences really helps contribute to our personal growth. She is very thankful for those who have already reached out via email, voicemail and Zoom. She is looking for new ways to connect, form friendships, ask questions on a regular basis, read books together and discuss them. As she continues to find new resources she would really like to connect with you.
LINK TO SURVEY: GIVE YOUR FEEDBACK HERE
Jenna welcomes Blake to the podcast. She mentions that she just finished reading his book and wishes she had read it earlier in her journey to unschooling. She says there is just so much value in it regardless of whether you are alternative schooling or not. She feels that all parents should have a copy on their shelves. It offers so many perspectives on parenting and education. It is the first book she has read in which an author specifically states that remaining open and non-dogmatic are important to unschooling. Something Jenna whole-heartedly agrees with and has talked about on the show before. She shares a quote from the book. “I encourage you to fly no flag. Don’t join the Unschoolers and never look back. Instead, pledge allegiance to the young person in your charge. Familiarize yourself with the full spectrum of options. Whenever you feel like you’ve found the answer to your kid’s educational needs, add the words ‘for now.’ Jenna says she felt that in her bones. Her children are very different people, they have completely different needs. She feels that it’s so important to stay tuned in to each of them and their needs ‘right now.’
Blake responds and says that as even two siblings can be very different, a single child can be radically different between now and a few years from now. He feels that to embrace one pet educational philosophy or dogma and believe that it is the ONLY way forward is a bit short-sighted.
Jenna agrees and mentions that her own children have been in many educational environments over the years. Public school, private school, alternative schools and unschooling. As they have changed, their needs have changed. She asks Blake about what brought him to unschooling in the first place.
Blake states that he grew up in California and attended public school. He was good in school and enjoyed reading in his spare time and was ready for the internet when it came along. After High School he was interested in a career as a research scientist but realized that he wasn’t very interested in the subjects required for the degree (math & physics) also he stumbled onto the work of John Taylor Gatto . In an elective class about creating educational television. The instructor thought it would be more beneficial to read Mr. Gatto’s book, ‘A Different Kind of Teacher’ on alternative education, rather than to continue discussing how to make educational commercials. He went on to study more and more about self-directed and alternative schooling. He then went on to leave his science major and create his own major in Alternative Education at UCLA Berkeley.
Jenna says that she has now met several people who created their own degrees and is surprised that before that, she never even knew this was possible.
Blake says that universities don’t advertise it but if you look into the interdisciplinary studies department you can advocate for yourself. There are also universities out there that let everyone create their own degree. He gives the example of Prescott College.
Jenna mentions that this is near her in Arizona. Then she goes on to ask Blake about making the transition from the play-based learning of younger children to pre-teen years when kids begin to form goals and make plans for the future. How can parents guide them as peers begin to be more and more important. She mentions that on page 12 of Blake’s book he talks about schools being a place where kids are doing so many things that don’t really matter. She wonders, what IS a good use of their time?
Blake says that is a good question. For one kid it might be sewing for instance, but for another that may be irrelevant. Schools can’t give kids that kind of individual attention. There are so many options, outdoor education is a good place to start. For him this was transformative. Just getting out of his usual environment. He says that when he was in fifth grade he went to an outdoor education camp where they learned about plants, animals and other biology focused subjects. The best part was that it was like going to summer camp. He was super engaged. Then when he was fourteen he traveled to Chili with other students for a Spanish immersion experience and stayed with a host family for a month.This put him into a real world learning environment. Camps and travel can be very engaging and rewarding. This is why he decided to start a travel company for teens. “Fundamentally, what teenagers and adolescents want is adventures, they don’t want to sit around being bored or being lectured to.” He goes on to quote Maria Montessori , “We cannot treat adolescents the same way that we treat younger kids, they want engagement, they want rules that make sense.” He says that instead of kids going to summer camp for three months and school for nine, it should be flipped. Maybe for the three month period (not summer when it’s more fun to be outdoors.) kids could concentrate on the three Rs. (reading, writing, arithmetic) if that is even necessary and spend the other nine months engaged in more immersive experiences.
Jenna shares her experience in her own self-directed path as a teen, when at nineteen she decided after one year of college to take a break and travel to Germany to work as an aupair. She did her own research, found a family to work for and with her parents blessing, she went off on a grand adventure. Learning a new language, culture and how to live independently in a foreign country. Even though she created this experience for herself she struggles to find ways to create experiences for her kids within a group of their peers.
Blake says that yes, even though we have many advantages in the US, most camps and such are often just in the summer and can be expensive. It can be hard to find other parents who can coordinate their schedules as well.
Jenna points out that some camps are just too far away or too expensive and that she needs to find a way to make this easier. For those unfamiliar with Blake’s camps she goes on to explain some of the things he does in his camps. She says she was surprised by some of the simple, yet impactful activities. One such activity was web design which required kids to install Wordpress then create a basic and professional looking website that represented them to the world. They could use this later for many purposes including networking and entrepreneurship. Another activity was building a birdhouse where they could see the results by observing the birds using and enjoying it. Another project was to engage students with other people. By composing emails sending two different letters, one a letter of recommendation and the other a request for an interview with a stranger. This taught the importance of networking and communication skills.
Blake says that all of this requires a facilitator to set up some basic rules and guidelines but could be done by any homeschooling group or Alternative school.
Jenna shares that all of this talk of adventure reminds her of the reality television show The Amazing Race. For instance, all of the challenges that contestants encounter such as doing research beforehand on the language, culture etc. of all the places they go on a world wide race. She thinks this would be a great idea for teens.
Blake is unfamiliar with the show but says that Jenna just gave him a new idea for one of his adventures. He adds other ideas such as putting on a play or competing in a debate team. Those things can engage kids even in a non traditional school setting. He says that he feels these are more like meaningful games than mindless drudgery.
Jenna asks Blake about a term he uses ‘Hard Fun’ and asks him to explain it further.
Blake says that young kids can be left to play and learn as they do so, but as they grow they need to broaden what ‘play’ means. He gives the example of computer games which can be quite complex and challenging. This is Hard Fun. It involves challenges, teamwork, cooperation and planning. He would encourage other forms of Hard Fun as well such as hiking or mountain climbing.
Jenna says that her own Hard Fun is photography. She says that it might help parents to identify what their own Hard Fun might be. Then they can see how their child’s Hard Fun can teach them how to focus and problem solving.
Blake mentions that parents might worry about time wasting, but there is a lot of time wasting in traditional education.
Jenna agrees and gives the examples of homework, studying for tests , and extracurricular activities. Another subject she wants more information about is mentorship and apprenticeships as these are things Blake talks about on his many platforms.
Blake states that Peter Gray’s theory says that children will mimic adults, but since the world has moved from more manual work to more mental work the idea of mentorship or apprenticeship is much harder to set up. One good resource is YouTube. There are so many videos available to learn about careers.
Jenna says that her son really wants to learn to create video games and is having a hard time connecting with an adult to teach him this from the very beginning to the end. Classes are great but it would be better to observe someone who actually has that job.
Blake says that yes there are great resources out there to learn to program, but it is not the same as observing what it is like to actually be a programmer. He equates it to the time when he thought he wanted to be an astronomer, but when he found out what the daily work was like it wasn't’ what he thought it would be. He recommends emailing someone in the field. Not only can kids get their questions answered, they see that they can access the real adult world. It can be so motivating and empowering. It says to them “I can make a difference, I am part of the game.”
Jenna says that as a child by sixth grade she was itching to be a part of things. She was already working for her dad at his hardware store. She loved photography and travel and wondered “Why can’t I just do that?” Moving on, she suggests they talk about the Harvard Homeschooling Summit that Blake attended where new severe restrictions to homeschooling were discussed for those in the US.
Blake says that one of the primary speakers was Elizabeth Bartholet, Professor of Law and Faculty Director of the Child Advocacy Program Harvard Law School. She talked about how unregulated homeschooling is in the US. While some states such as New York have some guidelines, most do not. Blake believes that after reading the book ‘Educated’ by Tara Westover, Professor Bartholet became concerned over what can happen when homeschooling goes awry. This concern is shared by the CRHE - Coalition for responsible home education. This organization is mostly made up of the grown children of radically religious homeschoolers, with rigid enforcement of gender roles, and physical, emotional and mental abuse. Another key speaker was James G.(Jim) Dwyer Professor of Law at William & Mary since 2000, Dwyer teaches family law, children's rights, youth law, trusts & estates, and international law. He is author of ‘Homeschooling: The History and Philosophy of a Controversial Practice’.
Jenna wonders why Blake was invited to this particular conference.
Blake says that it is likely because he both interviewed and was interviewed on his and their podcasts. He says it is important to be open to different viewpoints. He goes on to say that there are genuine concerns within homeschooling to be worried about. Especially in regard to ‘parental rights.’ Some of the suggestions at the summit were to model after European guidelines, wherein a presumptive ban on homeschooling would occur with parents needing to apply to be an exception to the rule. He says he got some flack for being involved but he understood that when serious, smart people want to restrict homeschooling he needs to listen and try to build bridges.
Jenna expresses her frustration and comments that eliminating homeschooling won’t eliminate child abuse.
Blake agrees and says that their argument at the summit was that if a child is not seen by a mandatory reporter (ie, teacher, doctor, nurse, counselor etc.) then there should be at least two visits to a doctor or another mandatory reporter during the year.
Jenna says that that actually makes sense. She notes on the other hand that abuse and trauma oftens happens at school.
Blake agrees and says that that topic was actually discussed at another conference that he attended - The Post Pandemic Future of Homeschooling. He says that you can hear all about both conferences on his Offtrail Learning Podcast.
Jenna says that having lived in Germany where homeschooling is not allowed, she sees regulation as a slippery slope. But she is not opposed to having observers checking in on occasion. It just needs to be handled delicately. She then asks Blake what his future plans are with his programs for teens.
Blake says that he likes to create things that he himself is interested in and doesn’t like to repeat things. He is planning a personal adventure and taking a biking trip around Europe. Then he will be leading an adventure the beginning of 2022 (Jan.- Feb. Now Full) called Humans of Mexico. Six weeks through southern Mexico ending in Mexico City. He says he stole the idea from the Humans of New York photojournalism project. The thirteen teens in the group will be meeting with people on the street, photographing them and interviewing them. They will post their work daily on Instagram. He says he gets his adventure ideas year by year. He mentions that he has contacts in the Patagonia region of South America and would like to make a camp there where they would have full use of an entire hostel. The region is a mecca for hiking and mountain climbing. To keep up to date on his upcoming adventures be sure to subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page on Unschool Adventures.
Jenna says this sounds amazing and as she and her husband both love to travel, this would be something they would want to do as well.
Blake encourages Jenna to start her own adventure group. He says he got started by applying for a trip leader position for a gap year company. But, he didn’t get the job. So he asked the director of the company if he would help him start his own company and the man said yes. He said there were not enough of these companies.
Jenna now asks Blake the four questions she likes to ask all of her guests:
What are you curious about? Blake says that right now he is engaged in planning his bike tour, finding places to stay etc.
What is your favorite way to learn? Blake says he likes to jump right in with a bit of research, saying “What is the worst that can happen?” For instance if he doesn’t have someplace to stay, there are alternatives.
What kind of self-directed learning do you like to do for yourself? Beyond the adventure stuff, he says that he enjoys books and long podcasts.
Is there a book, blog or podcast that you recommend? Blake mentions the Podcast Econtalk with Russ Roberts. Also, a website and app called All Sides , which gives news from the left, right and center with a summary. He likes to use it to stay informed in a non time consuming and balanced way.
Jenna suggests Blake check out Blinkist, a website and app that allows one to read or listen to a non-fiction book or podcast by getting the key ideas in minutes, not hours. You get a new book every day!
Jenna thanks Blake for being on the podcast and asks him the best way to connect with him. Blake says that the best way is his website. Jenna says the website is like a template for unschooling.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Showhttps://www.blakeboles.com
Unschool Adventures
Off-Trail Learning
https://twitter.com/blakeboles
Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School? | Blake Boles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjMdjO4NNs
‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’,
‘The art of self-directed learning’
‘Better than college: How to build a successful life without a four year degree.’
John Taylor Gatto
‘A Different Kind of Teacher’
Prescott College
Maria Montossori
The Amazing Race
Peter Gray
YouTube
Harvard Homeschooling Summit
Elizabeth Bartholet
‘Educated’ by Tara Westover
CRHE - Coalition for responsible home education
Homeschooling: The History and Philosophy of a Controversial Practice’
The Post Pandemic Future of Homeschooling
Humans of New York
Econtalk
Russ Roberts
All Sides
Blinkist
Ways to ConnectJoin me on the Show!
Leave a voicemail!
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Guest
Philip Mott
Philip is a former elementary school teacher who now offers parenting advice for busy and frustrated parents. He and his wife home school their three young children. He’s a regular contributor to Fathering Together and First Time Parent Magazine.
www.philipmott.com
www.fatheringtogether.org
https://www.firsttimeparentmagazine.com
You can also hear an interview with him on the podcast Front Row Dads. There are two parts:
Part One https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-1/
Part Two https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-2/
He is interviewed by Living Joyfully With Unschooling on the Exploring Unschooling podcast. View here on YouTube:
SHOW NOTES:
In today’s episode Jenna and Philip have an open and honest conversation about how each of their households handles things like screen time, bedtime and other common hurdles in unschooling.
Before we begin Jenna reminds listeners that she is always looking for new topics and questions you would like to hear addressed on the podcast. For instance, would you like to hear more from Jenna herself, more experts, other ideas? Also, remember to please leave a review as this helps grow the community.
Jenna begins the interview by asking Philip to explain his journey into self-directed learning.
Philip says that he began reading a lot about child development, student engagement, and why students are not fully engaged. He realized that he was becoming the teacher he himself would not have wanted when he was a student. His experience in school was not a good one which was one reason he wanted to become a teacher himself. At that time he felt he had fallen into an authoritarian role. After doing some reading he began to try to make his classroom more child centered. But he says that the writings of Magda Gerber, a parent child advocate who founded the Resources for Infant Educarers usually referred to as RIE, was a great inspiration for him. He found this resource when his child was thirteen months old and followed her advice on letting the child lead in play and learning. He had always followed a self-directed path in his own learning but hadn’t made the connection that it would be the same for even very young children. He and his wife were surprised and pleased that a child that young could be so self-directed. This was when they became hooked on self-directed learning and knew that they wanted that for their family.
Jenna notes that she is always surprised at how many educators there are who have an epiphany and says that she can relate to the feeling of becoming that teacher that you don’t want to be. She says that it felt uncomfortable and wrong but was brought on by stress and expectations which were out of her control.
Philip agrees and says that when he was teaching fifth grade at an online school he was on a team that kept him from implementing some of the things he wanted to try. He did create a program he called ‘Connect’ in which he would engage with students in order to build a relationship beyond just academics. He tracked grades during this time and saw that the extra engagement with his students did improve their interest and success in class. But, it still didn’t make up for the fact that trying to teach everyone the same thing at the same time was really not working. The curriculum keeps teachers bound to a timeline teaching specific skills at specific times.
Jenna asks if there is in his opinion any time that any one skill MUST be learned.
Philip says that it is less about when or even what is absolutely needed to be known or learned, but is much more imperative that the child not be made to feel inadequate if they fail to learn something at the time we expect them to learn it. Even if parents don’t criticize or punish their child for not learning a skill, they receive the message of unworthiness from standardized testing, the grading system etc.
Jenna mentions that some teachers put the scores on the board following a test. She wonders if this is supposed to motivate the students.
Philip says he wonders if it has become more valuable to beat another person rather than to learn and nurture relationships. He says that some of the philosophical reasoning within racism and feminism can teach about children and learning. He mentions the book ‘For Her Own Good’ by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English. The book addresses the wife having no say, and kids often find themselves in the same position. A power over vs power with mentality.
Jenna mentions a podcast episode by Brene Brown, where she discusses the Power Over vs Power With paradigm.
Jenna goes on to ask Philip if is familiar with Peter Gray’s assertion that language is the only subject that must be learned by age four and does he agree.
Philip says that in his own experience it has been the case that timelines on learning are very individual. He gives the example of his own learning. As he said before he was not a good student even in high school. But, in college he was ready to learn and did well. He supposes that exposure to one’s native language would most likely occur naturally.
Jenna says she was speaking with a friend recently and they brought up the fact that as students they didn’t learn much about technology as it hadn’t been invented yet. Now, everytime new tech comes along they all learn to use it. An example of learning when the need occurs.
Philip mentions that people are even learning things about how things were done ages ago. There are many YouTube channels dedicated to learning skills and tasks of old. Jenna mentions a project in Germany where they’ve used period-appropriate tools, materials, and techniques.
Jenna points out that the driving force in self-directed learning is curiosity. Philip states that within their home school ‘Curiosity is the Curriculum’ is their motto. An example he gives of a typical day is this. His kids are really into Pokemon right now. So, they will watch an episode or two and then go downstairs to the basement and act it out. His older son has learned all of the characters, cards, hit points etc. He is using a lot of skills including math. He advises parents to stop and observe what kids are doing and be able to see and recognize that their learning is fun and they are using valuable skills. Jenna mentions that she has observed her kids especially on excursions and that natural conversations occur that inspire learning. As a teacher she could see the learning but it was very subtle. With her son, his big interest at the moment is video games. He has learned by trying and failing and trying again. As he improved and learned organizational skills as well as the tech, he now shares his skills on Twitch. He learned a lot of soft skills that could one day be applied to a career. Academics she says can be learned and proven, whereas soft skills are more fluid. Philip agrees that academics have all these benchmarks and soft skills are harder to master. Even though Jenna’s son is showing leadership skills, there may be times when he doesn’t take a leadership role and that’s okay. He goes on to talk about labeling kids. One label he hears a lot is regarding ‘the strong-willed child.’ Once you decide your child is strong-willed, you tend to see everything they do through that lens. He wonders how it helps a parent to label a child strong-willed. While they may have been strong-willed yesterday, he believes we should give our loved ones a new chance everyday. Jenna says this reminds her of a podcast she listened to by Blake Boles interviewing Naomi Fisher on the topic of Nature vs Nurture. Perhaps it is the dynamic between parent and child. For instance maybe the parent is very authoritative and that impacts the child’s behavior. It goes both ways and can be very different between children within the same household.Philip says it is impossible to be the same parent to all of his kids. His kids are very different people.
Jenna mentions that she isn’t even the same person around her different groups of friends, so of course it makes sense that it is impossible to parent each child exactly the same way.
Philip says that his wife came back from the store one day and said that she needed to remember what it was like to shop with a three year old. This conversation reminded him that we even tend to label age groups of children. We put expectations of behavior and more on them. He says we need to look at it more individually. This is not A child, this is MY child. She isn’t a problem, she is having a problem.
Jenna agrees and says that it might be you that is projecting and actually creating a problem. Everyone has good and bad days.
Philip says we need to not be hard on ourselves as parents, since there are no ‘perfect’ parents.
Jenna says that within self-directed learning there is a tendency to strive for peacefulness and avoid conflict at all costs. She asks Philip’s thoughts on this.
Philip states that there are only two things in their household that they are firm on. Bedtime and Screen Time. As for bedtime they have ‘room time.’ The kids have to spend time in their rooms at night, but there is no requirement as to when they actually go to sleep.
Jenna says that for her, sleep is a number one priority. In her household with her kids, as they are older, and with some experimentation they agreed that everyone would be in bed by 9:30 PM. They don’t have to go to sleep, but they need to be quiet.
Philip says he really likes that Jenna discussed her need for sleep with her kids and asked her kids to help her out with that.
Jenna prompts Philip for his thoughts on screen time.
Philip states that he and his wife didn’t initially agree on this subject. (She wanted to limit it.) Now that his kids no longer have nap time, this has become Screen Time. They also have another screen time session in the evening. Although it is limited, it has not been a problem. Screens are now part of our culture and kids will most certainly be using them a lot in their futures.
Jenna says she is glad that he and his wife were able to negotiate as it demonstrates what everyone goes through. Parents are hardly ever in complete agreement on every issue. For her family they had years of limited screen time. She says she wouldn’t change that because it is impossible to explain to a two or five year old how video games are designed to be addictive. Now that her kids are older, she can discuss it at a higher level. Her son now spends the majority of his time on a screen since his main interests include gaming, tech related everything, 2D animation, 3D modeling, YouTube, Twitch etc. If she sees that he is losing interest in all of the other things he loves such as basketball, rock climbing and swimming, then it would be time to have a conversation with him. She says that one of the superpowers of self-directed parents is that they know their children so well that they notice more when something is off.
Philip discusses the fact that even if a self-directed parent were concerned they wouldn’t panic or try to solve the problem on their own. They would as Jenna stated have a conversation with the child and participate together in a solution.
Jenna and Philip wrap up the interview by agreeing that there are so many variables in play. Personalities, ages, etc. There is no rulebook. Parents have to be kind to themselves and their children.
Jenna asks Philip the four questions that she asks all of her guests:
How do you like to learn? Philip says he really likes to learn in tandem with others. Something like an apprenticeship. What are you curious about? Philip states that he is currently into meal prep and meal planning. Jenna asks if he has resources for that to share. Philip says that he just pulls things from the pantry and experiments. Do you have any educational resources that you want to share? Philip says that he has found some great courses through MasterclassSome of the classes he has tried are Graphic Design, Cooking and Guitar Playing.
What is a book, blog or podcast that you recommend? Philip says that Rogue Learner is of course on the list as well as Teacher Tom, an inspiring, friendly and authentic blog about living and learning with preschoolers. Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowPhilip Mott
Fathering Together
https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-1/
https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-2/
Exploring Unschooling podcast - YouTube
Magda Gerber
For Her Own Good
Brené Brown on Leadership and Power
Masterclass
Teacher Tom
Ways to ConnectJoin me on the Show!
Leave a voicemail!
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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Guest
Victoria Ransom
Victoria Ransom is a serial entrepreneur from New Zealand. She has developed four companies including Wildfire Interactive, a social marketing SaaS company, where Ransom was CEO until it was sold to Google in 2012. She was named Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award for New Zealand in 2011. Fortune Magazine honored her as one of the Forty Most Powerful Women Under Forty in 2012. In 2013, she was invited to the White House by President Barack Obama to receive a "Champion of Change" award recognizing her contributions as an immigrant entrepreneur. In 2015, she was awarded the World Class New Zealander award along with former New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark. In 2016, she was NEXT Woman of the Year in the Business and Innovation category.
In 2020, Ransom co-founded Prisma, a remote education startup. Victoria has been interviewed by Bloomberg News, The Corner Office, The New York Times and The Wallstreet Journal.
https://www.joinprisma.com/
https://www.facebook.com/joinprisma/videos/the-prisma-story-vision/1128347837551554/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzqdwPI1kFylYq19kQ1F18g
https://twitter.com/victoria_ransom
https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriaransom
Show NotesJenna’s intro: Jenna begins the show by reminding listeners that they can leave a voicemail for the podcast and she will read it on the show. Good or bad, she wants your input! Your comments, feedback and suggestions are much appreciated. You can find the link here.
Jenna introduces Victoria and explains that while the online school Prisma is not completely self-directed, it can be a good fit for families with kids that need more structure or are eager for more of a community in light of challenges to group meet-ups during the pandemic. Prisma is an alternative flex school with five week cycles during the year. This makes it a good choice for unschoolers to participate in and for world schoolers who do a lot of traveling.
Victoria tells us a bit about her journey. She is the mother of three and her journey in education began when her oldest reached school age. One thing that concerned her with traditional education was the rapidly changing world we live in, which she believed needed a broader skill set than conventional schools could provide. She was also concerned about the fierce competition and stressful environment, especially where she lives in northern California. She researched homeschooling, alternative and micro schools. She wanted a flexible environment where children could be led by their interests. Something that focused on problem solving and critical thinking. This is when she began to imagine creating something that would not only be best for her own children, but for other families as well.
Jenna asks Victoria to tell us who Prisma serves. What do the families enrolled in Prisma look like?
Victoria says that a common thread is that most of the parents at Prisma want their children to love learning. They are looking to Prisma to provide a toolbox that can help them be able to do many types of work by teaching them critical thinking and problem solving. The kids should be challenged and excited.
Jenna asks about the ages and prior circumstances of the children enrolled in Prisma.
Victoria tells us that the program currently serves grades 4 - 8 at the moment with plans to expand. Prisma grew quite a bit during Covid19 because many children were homeschooling. With Prisma, families found much more flexibility versus a traditional school moved to online. Some of the kids in Prisma are gifted and just felt bored or unchallenged at school. Some have difficulties that made conventional school difficult for them. These children thrive when they are able to move at their own pace. Victoria mentions that Prisma does do some assessment tests and academic growth is occurring.
Jenna asks what a typical Prisma day looks like.
Victoria says that students meet up several times a day. There are workshops, learner clubs, and projects. Coaches help a few kids at a time. Each of the 5 week cycles has a theme. For example, one cycle the theme was “Unchartered Territories.” Within this theme some of the subjects they learned about were space and deep sea exploration. Also, the children regularly do presentations for the parents. In core subjects math, writing and reading the children learn skills that they can apply to real world problems.
Jenna asks how the child’s interests come into play.
Victoria answers that a coach might encourage them to do a ‘Journey.’ For example, a fifth grader has started a ‘Journey’ to write a novel. Another student might decide to do a ‘Journey’ on space travel. Within the theme of the cycle, any student can propose their own project or ‘Journey.’ Within writing assignments kids are given a lot of choice and ability to write about things that they are excited about.
Jenna wonders how the Prisma school works with world schoolers, as they can do the work remotely.
Victoria says that the beauty of this model is that if the child has to be away for a while, they can adapt and alter the expectations for that student within the cycle. Every Prisma student can make their own schedule with the assistance of a coach. There are always physical aspects and options to the curriculum so that kids are not in front of a screen the whole time.
Jenna brings up the financial aspect of choosing a school such as Prisma as some families would not be able to afford the cost.
Victoria says that they have financial aid and that approx. 40% of the students are currently receiving some assistance. The school is also looking into trying some different ways to lower the cost and make it more available to everyone. One way to do this would be to offer different levels or versions which would involve more parent involvement. There are many plans in the works. As mentioned before they have plans to extend the age range they serve. Victoria says that they are likely adding grades through high school but may not add grades younger than fourth. This is because younger children don’t do as well working in a virtual environment and fourth grade is often when kids start to lose interest in school.This could be connected to the fact that standardized testing often begins then.
Jenna asks about how the Prisma families are registered in their state / country. As homeschoolers or as online schoolers.
Victoria states that most are registered as homeschoolers. She says that the accreditation process has many disadvantages as there are criteria to meet which
might restrict their ability to run the school the way they envision.
Jenna wonders if Prisma could work for unschoolers.
Victoria says that yes, they do have a few unschoolers that attend a few cycles per year. She feels that it probably wouldn’t make a lot of sense to do Prisma if they only attended sporadically.
Jenna wraps up the interview asking Victoria the four questions she usually asks all of her guests.
What are you curious about? Victoria says she is curious about education of course, but also health. Everything about it. Nutrition, exercise, sleep, etc. What is your favorite way to learn? Victoria says her favorite way to learn is reading, then podcasts and the news. Jenna changes it up with this question. (Usually she asks “What is a resource you want to share?”) This time she asks “How have you used self directed learning in your life?”Victoria says that as a young child she was very good at school and thrived in it.
But, as she got older she found it really hard to choose a career.
She became interested in education and entrepreneurship and once focused on
something she could really dig into, she went full swing into the self directed
learning path.
Jenna and Victoria briefly discuss their shared school experience and agree that maybe adults should be more mindful of a child’s interests / what excites them before we steer them down a career path or degree. Allow them space to figure out for themselves where they are headed.
What is your favorite blog, podcast or book that you would like to share?Victoria names two books that she read recently.
The first is “Why We Sleep” by Matthew Walker, Steve West et al.
Description: The first sleep book by a leading scientific expert - Professor Matthew Walker, director of UC Berkeley's Sleep and Neuroimaging Lab - reveals his groundbreaking exploration of sleep, explaining how we can harness its transformative power to change our lives for the better.
The second is “No Rules Rules” by Reed Hastings, Erin Meyer et al.
Description: Hastings and Erin Meyer, best-selling author of The Culture Map and one of the world’s most influential business thinkers, dive deep into the controversial ideologies at the heart of the Netflix psyche, which have generated results that are the envy of the business world. Drawing on hundreds of interviews with current and past Netflix employees from around the globe and never-before-told stories of trial and error from Hastings’s own career, No Rules Rules is the fascinating and untold account of the philosophy behind one of the world’s most innovative, imaginative, and successful companies.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Showhttps://www.joinprisma.com/
https://www.facebook.com/joinprisma/videos/the-prisma-story-vision/1128347837551554/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzqdwPI1kFylYq19kQ1F18g
https://twitter.com/victoria_ransom
https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriaransom
“Why We Sleep” by Matthew Walker, Steve West et al.
“No Rules Rules” by Reed Hastings, Erin Meyer et al.
Ways to ConnectJoin me on the Show!
Leave a voicemail! Email me: [email protected]
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Jae says he reached the breaking point in 2020. With the pandemic in full swing and talk of schools opening back up that fall, he started to realize that parents were not focused on their child as much as they were needing teachers to return as babysitters so the parents could go back to work. He didn’t want to be a glorified babysitter. Five months later, he quit.
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Guest
Sophie Christophy
Sophie is the CEO for a charity called Phoenix Education. An organization that is working to change the education system so that schools are more collaborative and offer rights respecting spaces. She is also co-founder of ‘the Cabin’, the first consent-based education setting in the U.K. - a self-directed learning community for children aged 5-11. She runs courses on consent based education and works with people of all ages on changemaking/education activism and paradigm shifting. All this is a move forward toward a new paradigm in which children are respected, listened to and treated as whole people, where adultism is managed and de-escalated as much as possible, as a route to social justice. Sophie is an unschooling parent to two children who are 7 and 10.
Contact info:
Twitter: @schristophy, Facebook: Sophie Christophy, by email: [email protected]
Show NotesJenna welcomes everyone back to the podcast after a break in which she and her family moved back to the US from Europe. She catches us up on her own family’s unschooling adventures and her future plans. These include plans to combine her love of documentary style family photography and unschooling. For more information check out Jenna’s Instagram and click on ‘Join my Audience.’
Introducing Sophie Christophy:
Read Her article from the Huffington Post
Sophie was referred to the podcast by Dr. Nickee Stopler in episode 9 of The Rogue Learner Podcast.
Sophie tells us that she became interested in unschooling after the birth of her daughter ten years ago. Always a curious child and life-long learner she credits the many educators in her family for her ability to trust her own instincts and problem solving skills.
She explains how having her daughter was a huge life shift. She found that she was extremely tuned in to her daughter’s anxieties which brought her to a better understanding of just how differently we all see and experience the world around us. Knowing that she needed to be an advocate for her daughter as she felt that the social constructs of our society may not be the best for the mental and physical well being of people in general, especially a child.
One event that shaped her thinking about life and learning was when one of her parents came out as Trans. This opened her mind to better understanding the need for love and acceptance over prejudice and also that just as being a part of any marginalized group can leave one feeling vulnerable, the same can be said for unschoolers. A certain amount of bravery is called for.
Moving to the topic of deschooling. - Sophie says to begin with giving yourself permission to control your own situation. Recognize your fears. Ask yourself what is holding you back. Treat deschooling like a practice (she gives the example of yoga.) Do it daily to make it a practice. Be a conscious creator of your environment. Pay attention to what you surround yourself with. Question your motives. Make a commitment. Create an environment that will lead to success. Outcomes and variables are set.
Sophie and Jenna discuss these thoughts.
Institutions such as schools try to control the uncontrollable. Be wary of falling into the trap of switching one dogma or philosophy for another rather than listening to your own intuition. Continue your own self directed learning while you are facilitating your child’s learning.Sophie discusses a new course that she offers in Deschooling the Body. In this class she teaches her students to bring their physical bodies into the decision making process by paying attention to the body’s cues, responses and intuitions. Do you react to a statement physically? She goes on to say that if you feel your body react to a statement in an uncomfortable way, it may not be true for you. Feel it, breathe into it and find a way to loosen that energy, through movement etc.
Jenna asks Sophie to explain more about the Cabin.
Sophie created the Cabin with her partner Sarah Stollery in a local village hall. What started off as two days a week for twelve 5-11 year olds has grown since then adding more time and soon serving children through age sixteen. Some of the children come for one day or a few hours, some come every day that is available. Everything is consent based. Everyone self-directs and they use a democratic system of decision making. Rights and opinions are respected. Each day begins with an open Circle time led by a ‘trained chair’ (someone who has been trained to facilitate.) All ages are represented. During this fifteen minute session, plans are discussed and problems are solved.
A variety of resources are available to the children / families participating. These are based on the requests of all involved. Some of the items might include: art and craft supplies, a library of books, games, den building materials, ropes and swings outside, gardening equipment and more. A list may be written on the board of things being offered that day such as field trips, musical events, plays, dances and/or classes offered by either children or adults. Classes are often offered as a result of a need. For example a class on Conflict was offered after an incident arose that exposed a need for that class. Facilitators often offer a class on something that they have experience with. No one is obligated to attend any class. The rest of the day includes lunch, more self-directed learning and a final closing meeting.
Sophie emphasizes that it is important that others build deschooling platforms even though it takes perseverance and trusting in your own self directed learning. She reminds us that it takes a deep commitment and confidence to invest in your own unschooling.
Phoenix Education: From their website: “Founded in 2000, Phoenix Education is committed to education transformation. We promote democratic, human-centred and rights-respecting practices and structures, where student voice matters, and young people influence their experience of education. We work with mainstream schools, as well as with progressive alternative settings and innovators, challenging and expanding norms of what school and education can be.”
Sophie describes her educational platform Phoenix Education as a place to help teachers and students create and collaborate. Drawing from such predecessors as the Sand School and Dartington Hall she has formed a network to connect mainstream schools with the concepts of self directed education. The mission is called Freedom To Learn UK. They have two main projects. For the adults, they help them to be education advocates and to be more socially responsible. Through workshops, talks and hands-on learning together. For students they have a Change-makers program which teaches children to be activists for themselves, their own education and acceptance of others regardless of differences.
Jenna ends the podcast by asking the four questions that she asks each of her guests.
What are you curious about? Sophie says that at the moment she is spurious about Kimchi. (How to make her own) She is also curious as to how everything will unfold as she opens a second learning facility this year. She is also curious as to where she will be in life in a year’s time. What is your favorite way to learn? Sophie tells us she loves to be a learner. She says she learns best through experiences, relationships and nature. Also learning through her kids and most of all, she likes learning through pleasure. Curiosity and imagination fuel her real world experimentation and taking action. What is an educational resource you recommend? Sophie quickly names Youtube and Tik Tok. Jenna chimes in to suggest Netflix .. and they agree. What is a book, podcast or blog that you recommend? Sophie states that she is really focused on things that de-stress her at the moment. She is finding that watching ‘Tattoo Fixes' on Netflix calms and amuses her. Another subject she is into would be Spirituality. Two of her favorites to follow are Christina Lopes DPT MPH and Martha Beck (The Gathering Room) Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowIntroducing Sophie Christophy: Read Her article for the Huffington Post and Attachment Parenting UK.
Dr. Nickee Stopler in episode 9 of The Rogue Learner Podcast.
Phoenix Education
Sand School
Dartington Hall
Freedom To Learn UK
Ways to Connect
Join me on the Show!
Leave a voicemail!
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Guest
Vincent Pugliesi
Vincent is the founder of the Total Life Freedom Community. Living a life of freedom is of huge importance to Vincent and his wife Elizabeth. They homeschool their three boys, and believe that having control of your time, your money, and the work you do, leads to the ultimate life freedom. While teaching others to do the same, the movement of Total Life Freedom was born.
https://totallifefreedom.com
Instagram @totallifefreedom1
IntroHey Everyone, welcome back to the Rogue Learner podcast. I have had a little break from publishing and I’m really grateful for you all having patience while I figure out my new rhythm here in the States. I don’t know if I’ve said it before on the show, but my husband is still in Europe and will be joining us later in the year so the time I once had to allocate to the show is reduced to very little, especially now that things are opening back up and my kids have access to so many places and clubs that were once closed due to Covid-19. I’d like to start by thanking you all for being so supportive and kind as I transition into our new normal. I am confident I can continue publishing great episodes, in fact I’ve spent the last week interviewing more amazing guests, but I do think the frequency of my publishing will slow at least until my husband joins us. For now, I’ll commit to one great interview a month, with the hope that I can do even more than that.
Some listeners have reached out to me to ask how they can support the show and I appreciate you wanting to help out. The show does cost money to produce, but I’d like to keep the information free to anyone who needs it. Still, if you like the show, get value from it, and have the means to support it monetarily, you can now do so by clicking the “Support Rogue Learner” link either in the show notes or from my profile on Instagram. I am eternally grateful for anyone who makes a contribution. The money will go directly back into paying for the domain, hosting, podcast distribution service and Adobe Audition subscription.
Another way to support the way if you provide a service to other homeschooling families is by advertising on the Rogue Learner website or adding a paid listing to the directory. You’ll find the link in the show notes or in my Instagram profiles. Thank you!
Also, as a thank you from me t o you I always have a book giveaway going on. If you leave a written review on Apple (which you can do through iTunes btw even if you don’t have an iPhone) and then send me a quick email with your screen name, you could win a copy of a book related to SDE. For every 5 reviews, I’ll be giving away two new books, “Raising Free People; Unschooling as Liberation and Healing Work” by Akilah Richards and “Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?” by Blake Boles. Head on over to Apple Podcasts to leave an honest written review and get a chance to win one of these books!
I’m really excited to introduce today’s guest. Vincent Pugliese is an entrepreneur who began his career in a very self-directed manner. Feeling as though he had no options in his 20’s and no clear direction, he took up his father’s advice to take on a photography class. In his story, you’ll hear how he went from completely apathetic toward learning to deeply passionate about sports photography. What I find most incredible about him is that he is now using that knowledge he acquired regarding how people learn with his own three boys. I’m so thrilled that he took the time to chat with me and I think you’ll feel the same way I did by the end of our conversation: motivated and inspired! And now, here is my interview with Vincent Pugliese from Total Life Freedom.
Show Notes
Jenna begins by welcoming Vincent to the show and thanking him for talking about his homeschooling experiences on the ChooseFI podcast, because it really inspired her to think more critically about the option to do the same for her kids.
Vincent says they are currently moving from Pennsylvania to Florida and they're able to do that based on the flexibility of their jobs and homeschooling. He says the kids started out going to traditional schools, but he and his wife didn’t like that they didn’t get to spend much time with their kids. They believe in following kids interests and focusing on learning, problem solving and entrepreneurship vs. a curriculum.
Jenna asks what sort of business ventures his kids are into right now. Vincent says his oldest son has always loved bugs. One day when they were playing baseball, his son said he didn’t want to play anymore. While he was waiting on the sidelines, he caught a snake and everyone grew really interested in the snake and his son started teaching them about the snake. Vincent remembers at this moment that his son really stood out - he was unique. Everyone else was playing baseball and wearing the same uniform. It made him interesting because he was following his passion and interests.
His son ended up turning his love for bugs into a little business where he teaches people about his tarantula and lets them hold it and collects tips. His middle son makes balloon animals for kids. They just got hired for a kids birthday party.
Vincent says his kids are learning how to be adults and doing adult things now. He doesn’t really understand why we make kids wait until they’re 22 years old before we let them start acting like “adults.”
Jenna jokingly says she’s in the wrong profession! Vincent follows up saying his kids are being paid $200 for doing a 2-hour birthday party. Someone told his son that he’ll be able to pay for college with all those earnings or not have to go to college at all!
Jenna adds that there’s so much being gained by the kids working on their business ventures, but the communication skills are definitely being sharpened. She remembers having difficulty in her youth talking with adults, mostly because of a lack of confidence. She thinks she missed out on really valuable learning opportunities by not engaging with adults.
Vincent says the boys are motivated on their own to earn more money and get more customers. Vincent stresses to his boys that it’s not about them, that it’s about bringing value to others. Each client should walk away feeling happy and fulfilled in some way, whether that be a child with a balloon animal or an adult overcoming their fear of tarantulas and holding one. Building a good business is all about adding value to other people’s lives.
Jenna asks Vincent to tell about his journey into each of his careers. Vincent’s journey was very self directed and did not follow a traditional path. Additionally, he did not feel successful in public school. Vincent is a business coach today, and he tells his mastermind classes that they have to be okay having no road map. Of course, at the beginning, there may be some critical steps that everyone will need to take but at some point you’ll need to become a problem solver, innovator, and trailblazer. Entrepreneurs are okay with failure. They learn from it. Vincent says he was always good at this in his youth.
His father suggested, one very late night, for him to try sports photography as a career. Vincent thought, “I’ve got nothing to lose” so he went ahead and began taking steps toward that career. Part of his training led him back to the classroom (college) and he was the best in his class. He was the best in his class - he wondered, how can I go from worst in class to best in class? He thinks it’s because he had a real passion for it - he could see himself doing that job and thriving in it.
Jenna says that it’s important to note that parents generally have some concern over whether or not their child will ever choose a career path, but it does happen for everyone at some point. There will be something that comes into an unschoolers life at some point that motivates the young person to set goals and accomplish them. Don’t worry. They will figure it out.
Vincent says he has listeners of his podcast Total Life Freedom, that reach out to him at age 33 and did exactly what they were supposed to do, followed a traditional path, and are miserable in their job. They may have a beautiful house, car, kids, etc but they hate what they do and don’t know how to get out of it.
Vincent says unless his kids absolutely always love what they’re doing, he hopes they will evolve and change their careers. Through new endeavors, you learn new life skills, communication skills, and business skills. He and his wife’s “graduation criteria” revolves around financial goals because ultimately that’s what will give them the foundation to lean into a career that they’re passionate about. He doesn’t want them to be so far in debt with student loans and such that they find themselves stuck, as he so often sees with his clients. Financial wisdom and emotional intelligence will allow you to do anything in life.
Jenna adds that many kids in elementary and secondary school lack the time and possibly resources to dive deep into various interests and passions which robs them of self-discovery. By the time they’re of age to start thinking of their careers, they simply lack the experience and self awareness needed to decide on a path. Additionally, Jenna argues that living life provides you with real learning experiences that help you to better understand what it is you like doing and exposes children to so many types of ideas, subjects, passions, etc. Schools can’t offer that in the same way - it’s not flexible enough to accommodate each student in that way.
Vincent adds that compartmentalizing learning is not how the real world functions. His son, as an example, is really into tanks and building small versions of them and sells them. Through that one interest, he’s learned about WWII, engineering, and commerce.
Jenna asks Vincent to tell us what happened after he got started in his photography career. Vincent went on to cover the Super Bowl, World Series, NHL championships and was awarded International Sports Photographer of the Year by Pictures of the Year International in 2003. His work has been published in nearly every newspaper around the globe. He eventually moved to Indiana where he met his wife, Elizabeth and they both began working for a small newspaper there. Although he really loved his job and won many awards for his work, he didn’t enjoy having his schedule dictated by an employer. He wasn’t earning much money when his wife became pregnant with their first child so Vincent decided they needed to have their own business. His dad gave him some great advice once again. He told him that he had a skill that he wasn’t using. He was really good at photography and could be controlling his schedule and income but instead, he told Vincent he thought he was settling out for $15/hr and benefits.
He called his wife and told her they were going to start a wedding photography business. He says the first year was awful. Within three and a half years though, they had paid off all their debt, paid off their house and quit their jobs. That’s when their life of freedom started. What am I growing, what am I building next, and what am I a beginner in are three important criteria for Vinent in his life.
Jenna says there’s a ton of value gained from changing careers and passions throughout our lives and the skills learned from one path will ultimately be used in some way in the future goals and projects of the future. She herself has incorporated her photography business skills and writing skills into her podcasting venture and she continues to use her education background as a foundation for each of her endeavors as well. Jenna’s son loves gaming and through gaming he’s tried streaming on Twitch, creating a YouTube channel, and now coding. Learning isn’t linear, it’s more of a meandering stop and go joy ride.
Vincent says it’s not talked about enough, this concept of skill stacking. Even if things don’t work out, you can pull certain skill sets from one passion to another. Failure is experience. Too many people quit instead of using what they’ve learned.
Jenna asks Vincent what he thinks his kids would have missed if they had been in school. He says his kids would likely be missing out on being bullied at school. He gets asked, as we all do, about socialization and what he’s noticed is that kids who homeschool have no qualms hanging out with kids much older or younger than them. In public schools however, 13 year olds can seem like an idol to a 12 year old, whereas an 11 year old would look like an idiot. He remembers this being the mentality in his own school-aged years. He doesn’t see that in homeschooling. He goes on to add that kids who have similar interests can interact in homeschooling, whereas in school and within a grade level, there may not be the opportunity for that.
School has also given Vincent’s family the freedom to travel. They have spent the last 10 years traveling south in the winter and exploring the Southern United States. People have often asked him “Where are the desks?” and “Where do your kids do school?” To that, he says school is everywhere. Life is school. “School” happens whenever you want to learn. When people are willig to see that, the whole world opens up.
Jenna asks Vincent what he would do if one of his boys wanted to go to school. He says they would absolutely support that, in fact they’ve presented it as an option to try out. Whatever they want to do, they support.
Jenna says she asks because her daughter recently asked to go back to school. Her daughter enjoys the structure and finds the curriculum motivating. She thinks there are definitely people for which school suits.
Vincent says he has ADHD and believes two of his three boys may have it too. He says he never thrived in school. He never liked structure created for him by someone else. Some kids do love direction and structure and thrive in public school though. There should be a choice for kids who don’t thrive there though. Some kids end up in detention and are told they’re bad kids so having the option to choose a different environment for kids to learn in is vital to them accomplishing their learning goals.
Jenna asks Vincent what the best thing about homeschooling has been for his family. He says for sure it’s the relationships; spending time together. Vincent and his family invented the “Beautiful Day Rule” which means that when the skies are blue in Pittsburg, they get their essential work done and then go do whatever they want that day. Recently, he and his son took the day off and stayed in a hotel for the night. They spent the day on paddle boats, at the arcade, swimming, and talking. His son said it was “the best day ever” over and over again. That is the greatest benefit of homeschooling; the relationships.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today’s ShowTotal Life Freedom
Total Life Freedom podcast
Choose FI
Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School by Blake Boles
Raising Free People by Akilah Richards
Anything You Want by Derek Sivers
Your Music and People by Derek Sivers
Discord
Support Rogue Learner
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Leave a Review
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Join me on the Show! Show Notes
Hello Everyone and welcome to the Rogue Learner podcast. My name is Jenna Reich and I am the host of this show. Today is going to be a quick episode where I may ramble. I’ll try to keep it relevant to SDE, but with no promises! The first thing I want to share is a bit about my daughter’s experience so far going back to the school system and my son’s new opportunities after moving Stateside. And since I’m doing a solo show, I also want to share a bit about my intersection between financial and educational freedom. For us, they are inextricably linked so I feel compelled to share how one leads to the other and vice versa - together they provide us with a powerful gateway to liberation. Essentially any time you rely on an outside entity or person to fulfill your most basic needs, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.
So, let’s begin with my daughter. For those of you new to the podcast or listening to the show out of order, I’ll give you a little of our backstory . We started unschooling at the beginning of the pandemic and at that time we lived in England. In the UK, there were strict lockdowns put in place almost immediately after we arrived and we spent close to 6 months in isolation. As you can probably guess, my kids weren’t able to experience unschooling as it should be, nor did they have the opportunity to make friends and build community. Both of which are essential to SDE, as you know from listening to my episodes with Peter Gray on the 6 optimizing conditions for SDE. That was episode 13 and 14 of the podcast. Anyway, we came to the conclusion as a family that the move to England was terribly timed and we needed to move back to a place where we had a support system already in place. We would have likely moved back to Germany, where we had been living for 6 years, but sadly unschooling and homeschooling are illegal there and we were not interested in rejoining the German school system. If you don’t know much about the German school system, let’s just suffice it to say that it’s not changed since its inception. None of us were keen on that and alternative schools were sparse where we lived. We ultimately decided to move back to the States, where we had been living prior to our time in Germany. Our son, who attends a global online school for self-directed learners, was pretty content with his schedule and talking with friends over Zoom calls and through video-gaming. However, it was evident that this type of learning environment, which we expect will continue for months and months, was not only less than ideal for our daughter, but it was making her sick. She was not living a full life and we knew it needed to change immediately. When we talked with her about it, she asked to go back to school and of course we supported her in that decision and agreed that being with people on a daily basis is necessary for her. There aren’t any self-directed learning centers in our area. I know other people must be in a similar situation, so I’m sharing this here in the off chance someone needs to hear this right now. Although I am completely aware of the fact that schools are oppressive and not well geared for original thought or creativity, I think parents need to evaluate decisions based on the overall well-being of their child. For us, and this may differ from you, my child’s mental health is far more important to me than the constant advocacy needed to fight for my children’s liberation while they’re in school. In fact, the more I read about emotional wellbeing and how it plays a significant role in one’s physical health, the more I realize that my #1 priority will always be emotional health. For some, that may mean keeping your child as far from a school as possible, but for others that may mean participating in some “school-like” settings and partnering with your child as they navigate the messed up systems in our society.
Let’s get to my daughter’s experience so far - the positives are that she has made many friends, she’s been able to express herself, she’s felt successful, she’s feeling challenged too, and she gets plenty of exercise. She also feels a sense of belonging. The negatives are that we are bound to a schedule, we have to pack a lunch everyday and it limits the food she can eat, she is being influenced by friends and teachers, some of which I can tell are oppressive and stereotypical beliefs and propaganda. I’m absolutely aware that there’d be more awareness and respect in these areas if she were to attend a self directed learning center or sudbury school, but we are working with what’s available to us. Luckily, we found a school with small class sizes, a remarkable community feel, and one with familiar faces.
My plan of action to combat this is through honest dialog and by challenging those beliefs and ideals together in our home conversations. “Why do you think that?” is a great opening question. Giving kids the opportunity to think about their beliefs and defend them is a great way to open up dialog. Our most important job is keeping her close, loving her fiercely and maintaining healthy attachment.
Two of my favorite authors who write about attachment and psychology are Gabor Mate and Gordon Neufeld.
In his book, When the Body Says No by Gabor Maté writes,
“Well-self-regulated people are the most capable of interacting fruitfully with others in a community and of nurturing children who will also grow into self-regulated adults. Anything that interferes with that natural agenda threatens the organism’s chances for long-term survival. Almost from the beginning of life we see a tension between the complementary needs for security and for autonomy. Development requires a gradual and age-appropriate shift from security needs toward the drive for autonomy, from attachment to individuation. Neither is ever completely lost, and neither is meant to predominate at the expense of the other.
Autonomy, however, needs to be exercised in a way that does not disrupt the social relationships on which survival also depends, whether with emotional intimates or with important others --- employers, fellow workers, social authority figures. The less the emotional capacity for self-regulation develops during infancy and childhood, the more the adult depends on relationships to maintain homeostasis. The greater the dependence, the greater the threat when those relationships are lost or become insecure. Thus, the vulnerability to subjective and physiological stress will be proportionate to the degree of emotional dependence.
I’m guessing you’re listening to this show because you want to support our societal shift in how we treat children because you, too, believe that their emotional wellbeing is going to determine the society we grow into. If you're interested in learning more about childhood experiences and how they affect your health later on, I encourage you to read the whole book. It’s an eye-opening read and gives credence to the unschooling lifestyle - one that seeks a balance between attachment and autonomy.
As Gordon Neufeld says in his book, “Hold Onto Your Kids”, Attachment is both a shield and a sword.”
He also says,
“The time we as parents and educators spend trying to teach our children social tolerance, acceptance, and etiquette would be much better invested in cultivating a connection with them. Children nurtured in traditional hierarchies of attachment are not nearly as susceptible to the spontaneous forces of tribalization. The social values we wish to inculcate can be transmitted only across existing lines of attachment.”
Connection is where it’s at. We are paying close attention to our relationship. At the moment, we see her thriving and our connection is strong which makes us all very happy. If that ever changes, we will discuss it with her and decide what to do from there.
As for my son’s experience at home; he’s still happy learning through clubs, bootcamps and playing video games. He watches a lot of YouTube as well. He started volunteering at our daughter’s school, helping out in the Pokemon club. In the club, he helps the other kids build their decks, calculate their damage, and explains the rules. He LOVES it! He’ll be trying out karate at the end of the month, but we’ve got a few back-up plans if he doesn’t enjoy it, like recreational swimming, tennis or handball, all of which he enjoys a lot. The one other thing we’ll be adding to his learning experiences is spending some time at my dad’s hardware store once a month, helping out as needed. He also hopes to build his own gaming PC with my dad’s help.
Just as I mentioned in previous episodes, this journey never stagnates. We are always ebbing and flowing and making small or big adjustments as needed, which is a great segue into the other topic I wanted to talk about briefly. The ability to make big changes in our lives has been a result of some intense effort on our part.
For over 3 years now, my husband and I have been working toward financial independence and it’s opened our world to incredible opportunities. Although we aren’t there yet (not even halfway), having financial security has provided us with the freedom to make some drastic changes in our lives. In order to live the lifestyle that most aligns with our values (unschooling included), we’ve had to change our mindset about money. Just a few years ago, we were both working full time and were living that 9-5, M-F kind of life - ya know, keeping up with the Joneses. Even though we mostly enjoyed our jobs, we realized most of what we earned, we spent on things that didn’t truly matter much to us at all. You know, new cars, better housing, new furniture, better technology, more vacations and fancier hotels. The more we made, the more we spent. I came upon a podcast at the end of 2017, that completely changed our lives called Choose FI. Essentially, and I’m really over simplifying this for today’s episode, but what they discuss on the podcast is how to save enough money so that if you didn’t want to work anymore, you wouldn’t have to. That sounded pretty dope to me, so I started listening and listening and listening. We were on a road trip to Italy and we had a 13 hour car ride ahead, so I tuned in that whole drive there and back. Over 100 episodes later and after regurgitating everything I learned to my husband, we began making some pretty drastic changes to our lives so that we could begin saving more than we spent. I quit teaching, we bought a house way below our means and stopped spending money on things we didn’t value. I became so passionate about it and was learning fast. Because it was so relevant to my life and my goals, I was willing to spend hours devoted to acquiring more information. I thought of nothing else. I read every book I could get my hands on. I mean, I learned about finance, something I thought I could never wrap my head around. And why? Because I wanted that freedom from the daily grind. I wanted to retire early with my husband and earn money doing things we loved - make our own schedules and stick it to the man. I wanted to make my own rules about what is important to me and what I want to spend money on. Guys, I went Rogue before I went Rogue!
Something I’ve discussed at nauseum on this show is how powerful self directed learning is. If you are motivated to learn something, by golly you’ll learn it! Anyway, fast forward to today and my husband and I are well on our way to early retirement. We don’t have a definite end date, because we are taking it one year at a time and adjusting our spending as our lives require it. For example, the move back to the States obviously wasn’t planned in our budget, but we made the decision based on our needs and feel so much freedom in knowing that if something isn’t working for us, we have the ability to change it. We don’t rely on that next paycheck. We have space to breathe. I want that for you all too. It will open up doors for you and your family.
The reason I tell you all this is because I know there are people out there thinking that this lifestyle isn’t accessible to them for financial reasons, but I challenge you to reconsider. Are there things in your life you spend money on that you could live without? Is there a way to reduce your spending on housing, car, or food? Those are the three largest expenditures for most households and reducing that spending can hugely affect your savings rate. The other reason I wanted to share this is because personal finance sounded really scary to me. I thought it was too complicated for women to understand! I can’t even believe I’m saying that now because I actually feel comfortable teaching others about it and I have shared my knowledge with friends and family who have benefitted from it. So, yeah, self-directed learning works. You can learn anything and so can your kids.
I have an interview coming up soon with a dad who is financially independent and I’m seeing a huge number of families on the path to FI or already there, who also choose to homeschool/unschool or worldschool. I notice that our type of people are looking for ways they can improve their lives and break free from conventional thought. With that said, I hope to bring you more interviews with people who have all of this in common. That is, if you want it! Let me know in the comments or come visit me on Instagram. You can also email me to let me know your thoughts at [email protected].
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowHold Onto Your Kids, by Gordon Neufeld
When the Body Says No by Gabor Maté
Choose FI Podcast
Episode 13 and 14 with Dr. Peter Gray
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
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YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
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JOIN ME ON THE SHOW!!!
GuestMegan
IG @theunschoolfiles
www.theunschoolfiles.com
I’m a mama + unschooler from Austin Tx - kiddos are 10, 12 &15 i parent from the heart, and unschool just the same. the liberation of all people is the reason, for me - once I understood how oppressive school was, there was no stopping what came next. sometimes I podcast about it :)
Show NotesHi Everyone and welcome back to the Rogue Learner podcast, I’m Jenna Reich. Every other week, I interview researchers, educators, entrepreneurs and families about their experiences with self directed learning. The off-weeks, I co host my show with a listener and we focus our attention on the previous podcast episode and share our biggest takeaways from it.
This week, I have a very special guest co host joining me on the show. Meghan is an unschooling mother of three and the podcast host of The Unschool Files. She has interviewed a number of amazing guests too and I’ve had the pleasure to get to know her and talk with her over Zoom. Go ahead and stop listening right now to subscribe to her show. I’ll wait right here!
We’ll be talking about our takeaways from last week’s episode with Summer, a grown unschooler who shared how her life without school was fulfilling and how her relationships were strong. If you subscribe to conventional thinking (which I’m guessing you don’t if you’re listening to this show), you’ll find yourself questioning everything! She challenges those ideas and provides us with some incredible ways to reflect and process our thoughts about life. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, it was number 25. FYI, I always share the links and resources mentioned during the episode in the show notes so no need to write anything down.
Before we get started, I have a couple of announcements to share. Firstly, this podcast is being listened to in 17 countries at the time of recording and I just want to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to tune in. I value your time and I hope I am doing a good job of bringing you content that’s informative, relevant, and concise. Also, we had our first book winner this week! For every 5 reviews I get on Apple podcasts, I give away 1 free book. In order to enter the giveaway, all you need to do is send me a quick email saying what screen name you left the review under. It was a great pleasure to send off a copy of Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher to a listener this week!
Last thing before we begin today’s show, please subscribe to the Rogue Leaner YouTube channel. I’ll be uploading all of the episodes there and am preparing to add a variety of content there that will not be on the podcast. If you’re interested in getting a more in-depth look at our unschooling lifestyle, you’ll want to head over there!
Okay, let’s get on with the show shall we. Enjoy!
Jenna asks Meghan to share a bit about her journey into unschooling and how she got into podcasting. Meghan says she’s a mama of three, 10, 12 and 15. Her 10 year old has never been to school but she pulled her oldest out of school when he was in 3rd grade. She describes their unschooling as an ever-evolving emergent practice. She dabbles in podcasting over at The Unschool Files as and when she has the time.
Jenna says she knows the difficulty in balancing podcasting and unschooling because they both take up a lot of time. Meghan reminisces a bit on how unschooling can take up many days at a time as you’re living life with community - the days sort of blend together. Jenna explains how her and her family haven’t actually experienced that side of unschooling yet due to the constraints of lockdowns and the pandemic. She had initially wanted to take the kids on a trip around Europe, but they found themselves isolated instead. Meghan reassures her that the days will come and they aren’t too far away, at least she hopes.
Jenna asks Meghan to kick off the show with her first take away from Episode 25 with Summer. Meghan says for her, what really stood out was that there are so many interpretations of unschooling and the idea that the word ‘unschooling’ is sort of on trial - people want to scrap the word altogether.
Jenna adds that unschooling is based on each family’s personal values, so there is no playbook. There is no guide to tell you exactly how it should look in your home. It’s going to vary wildly depending on the individuals in your home. You don’t choose unschooling if you want precise guidelines or something to follow. Jenna says she’s considered mentoring or coaching in the future, but she doesn’t really know how that would work because what works for her family may not work for another family.
Meghan agrees, she sees many parents looking for that support. She knows not everyone gains enough confidence by just researching it on the internet. But she is curious to know how a mentor or coach could guide a family since you’d really have to have a deep understanding of the complexities of the relationships within the family.
Jenna says she could see it being useful as an accountability check in or just overall support when you’ve had a lousy day or your confidence is waning. You could get ideas on ways to fix problems and have someone there to reassure you when you inevitably make mistakes. Meghan adds they could certainly encourage and cheer you on. She still wonders what is being taken away from those kinds of mentorships. Are parents being asked to examine the balance of power in their homes? Sharing power is so critical to unschooling and self-directed learning. Parents would need to have an intersectional look at what unschooling can do so we can get rid of some of these problems in our society that could go away by liberating everyone.
Jenna adds that Summer talked about some questions parents can ask themselves which are helpful when you’re challenging your thoughts. She said, “What response was I trying to elicit? When fear comes up, where did I get the idea? Where did it come up? Why do I believe it? Is it true for me? Jenna says she uses these questions all day long, even though she admits that she isn’t perfect and there are still times where she makes mistakes and has to go back and apologize.
She shares an example of when she really needed to ask herself whether she was operating from fear or power over when she noticed her son wasn’t leaving his room and getting any exercise. She thought about it for 24 hours before deciding that she truly does have a concern about his health and that she needed to approach him about her concerns. They are considering karate, but Jenna also had to stop herself from demanding a solution right away. Her son wants to take it slower and try one thing out at a time before making a decision.
Meghan says the pandemic has brought on really special circumstances when it comes to health and safety. They’re finding it more challenging and are forced to occasionally play the parent power card when it comes to things that could be dangerous. The conversation has to be really honest. Meghan says you can tell your kids that you don’t want to have control over this and you want them to make these decisions for themself. You want them to be sovereign in their decision making, however if you’re noticing that there is a health or safety concern you can make suggestions.
Power is rooted in colonialism, says Meghan. It’s rooted in systemic racism and spreading American Puritan beliefs. And we’ve been convinced that this is the only way to live. It’s a lie and there’s another way to live. Meghan adds that we’re all holding ourselves hostage within this paradigm and we can walk away.
Jenna adds that Summer pointed out how all of our beliefs and societal norms are just made up. The curriculum, the American dream, the 9-5 is all just made up. We could have been following completely different norms and we just go along with it because we’ve always done it. We could have included anything in the curriculum and we would have just accepted it and learned it because that’s what we’re meant to do.
Meghan says, yeah, we’d just be going along. It has so many angles. She says she knows that there are people who can’t walk away from the schooled path though, due to the fact that they have special needs they rely on from the school system. For example, students who are neurodiverse, deaf, blind, etc. Jenna points out that there are also people who don’t have any problems in the school system, and therefore they have a degree of privilege in being able to use public education without being negatively impacted.
Meghan shares that a listener she often talks with has a child with hearing and wants to be referred to a school for the deaf, but the local public school says she can manage just fine there (even though that isn’t the case) and won’t give her the referral - they are essentially acting as a gatekeeper. People then feel lost and unsupported. Meghan says she tries to be careful when talking about unschooling and all the things it can do for us because she knows there are people out there that just don’t have the access to it or can’t for whatever reason.
Jenna points out that living an unschooling lifestyle still has enormous benefits, even if you’re forced to choose a public education. Having respectful, democratic, power balance in the home percolates down and changes the way kids interact in the world. Jenna says she notices the difference in how her children perceive the world from before unschooling and after. She says for her, unschooling goes beyond academics and is more of a lifestyle.
Meghan defines unschooling as living without oppressive relationships, ideally without forced academics but she thinks that’s negotiable. Parents can talk with their kids about the oppressive systems we are subjected to and learn how to advocate for themselves and ask good questions.
Jenna agrees and adds that parents can also advocate for their children within those oppressive systems too. Jenna adds that with her own daughter, she was able to talk very openly and honestly with the teacher to ensure that her daughter’s wellbeing is the priority. In her experience, the teacher was really receptive.
Meghan points out that there will be challenges, having to maneuver dynamics that are not similar to your own family’s mutually consensual relationships vs. the top-down hierarchical place, but that doesn’t mean you can’t go into an hierarchical place and meet the moment there if it’s desired by the individual.
Jenna shares how her daughter noticed a sexist remark in her first week of school from one of the teachers, and it’s good to see that she is noticing those things and forming opinions about that at such a young age. Meghan laughs and says she thinks Jenna’s daughter is going to do just fine!
Meghan’s second take away from the episode with Summer was that she was raised to always trust herself. Meghan says she tried to imagine if she felt like her children felt the same way, and she thinks they do. Summer talked about how she was never explicitly told that she could trust herself, it was more in the way she was treated - she was in charge, she was a sovereign person, she could make choices for herself.
A quote that stood out to Jenna was when Summer said that “a ‘good education’ doesn’t have anything to do with joy, passion, love, health, wellness, and happiness.” Meghan and Jenna ask in unison, “what is the point?” Why even be in this world if there aren’t any of those things. Meghan takes it further by asking what is the point in wealth if you can’t ever spend it, what’s the point in climbing the corporate ladder if you can’t have a family if you want one or travel or start a side business, or have a stand at the farmer’s market on the weekend? We’re supposed to be living, not just working. Productivity is not the natural state of a human being. She says she thinks we’ve learned to be productive in order to survive, and she doesn’t discount the very real realities of being productive in order to pay the bills and travel. We have to be careful not to slip into “bourgeoisie” unschooling where you think you’re in an elite club and ‘above’ school. It can be a slippery slope.
Jenna shares how she didn’t want to box herself in when she created this podcast. She knew that SDE would be much more inclusive and she never wanted to sound high and mighty or dogmatic. She laughs about how she now has a daughter in public school so it’s probably best she didn’t do a podcast dedicated solely to unschooling.
Meghan says that she thinks where Summer was coming from is, if relationship and partnership come first, even if it’s outside of the parent child relationship, if the space the children are raised in is not oppressive, it can still be unschooling.
Jenna says that people who claim that unschooling doesn’t work for them may truly be struggling with trust, because unschooling can’t not work since it’s principles are defined by everyone getting their needs met. Those parents may just need more time deschooling in order to fully trust the process. They may be operating from fear. Meghan adds that power is really hard to let go of.
Jenna admits that she was a control-seeking person before she started her unschooling journey and it caused her to feel anger when someone would cancel plans or anything happened that was out of her control. With the unschooling lens, she is able to recognize those situations of control-seeking and be empathetic to the needs of others. Her daughter recently objected to a snuggle and Jenna (although somewhat saddened by it) felt proud of her daughter’s ability to set boundaries with someone she loves and cares about. Jenna says she still struggles to set boundaries with people as an adult.
Meghan points out that on the flip-side of that boundary discussion, some absolutists in unschooling may use their boundaries as an excuse to be unkind. I think you start to lose some control over those boundaries when they become so inconvenient to everyone else around you. You may notice that fewer people will want to hang out with you.
Jenna quotes Summer, “Any time someone’s freedoms are being sacrificed for another person’s freedom, then it’s not true freedom. She says she's all for boundaries but we need to be respectful of where they overlap with other people’s freedom.
Meghan brings up the part in Summer’s interview where she talked about her mom not wanting to buy factory-farmed meat for her kids and not having a television. She says this can be a really tricky subject. Jenna adds that her family is vegan and in her family they’ve had to make a few boundaries when it comes to meat, like she won’t prepare it, but she doesn’t mind buying her son a burger. It’s really up to the family and the individuals to decide what their boundaries are and how they can meet everyone’s needs.
Meghan talks about her experiences with food. They had food issues in the family. Her family moved to Japan though and she remembers before that move, she was able to be very selective about what her family would eat, particularly no fast food. It was much more difficult to eat that way in a foreign country. She even remembers a time, which she is ashamed about now, where she got super frustrated when someone fed her kids fast food. At the time, she was very righteous in what she felt about food. Living in a foreign country changed her perspective for many reasons and she found herself in line at McDonalds one day with her kids. Her daughter looked up at her and asked if it’s okay that they eat it now. It was a really pivotal moment for her because she realized just how much control she had over the types of foods her kids had access to and the types of people they met up with. It was an explosive moment for her where she realized she had been controlling things for so long. She said at the time she had been listening to Akilah’s podcast and she felt like her unschooling was fake because she was controlling all of the inputs.
Jenna says that in her episode with Naomi Fisher she talked about the inability of parents to release control of everything in their children’s lives because in some small way, we are always controlling their environments. Jenna says she thinks the best way to navigate that is to be aware of it and limit it as much as possible. Meghan says everyone has different levels of comfort in what they’re willing to let go of control in. Meghan adds a point Summer talked about; we all need to keep asking why - why am I doing that? Who am I leaving out? Who doesn’t have access to this? What is being left behind when I reject this idea and move onto this other idea. It’s challenging.
Jenna reiterates, this is your own. Everyone’s needs! Meghan says it’s an emergent practice. Our lives change, people change, our circumstances change. We need to continue evolving in unschooling. Meghan says she loved the point Summer made about how hard it is to unlearn the beliefs we’ve developed about yourself compared to learning math, for example. Summer had said, if you take care of the relationship and the connection and your child’s emotional and psychological wellbeing, the academic learning will take care of itself - it doesn’t need you to manage it.
Most of us learn negative things about ourselves, Jenna says. It’s an accumulation of negative experiences throughout childhood. We try to limit that with unschooling. Meghan adds that those stories about ourselves are pretty solid by the time we’re adults. The goal then is to surround your children with people who are invested in them and whom your children are also invested in. You can do that when you break away from oppressive relationships because when that’s not there anymore, we don’t have this need to hold power over and control over, you’re all free. And when everyone’s free and everyone’s needs are being met, there’s really not a lot that can go wrong there.
Jenna says that her giving up control really elevated her relationship with her husband. They both feel supported in their interests and hobbies and feel free to pursue their passions. It makes everyone much happier. It’s a byproduct she hadn’t originally thought about when deciding to unschool since her focus was more on her children and the impact it would have on their lives.
Deschooling is where it’s at, says Meghan. We are the real problem, us parents. Jenna says that it’s becoming so apparent to her that trust, respect and connection are the foundation of unschooling. Everything else just seems to work out. It’s such a simple concept, but one of the hardest hurdles to overcome without continual deschooling.
Meghan agrees saying all other things are a byproduct of the deschooling process. Deschooling is for everyone. The colonial mindset is perverted and we have the opportunity to change that through our relationships with our partners and our kids.
Meghan asks Jenna what she meant by wanting to deschool longer before taking her kids out of school - what would that have looked like for her? Jenna says that’s a really good question and basically, she thinks she pulled them out before she really trusted the process which made the transition turbulent and confusing. She wishes she would have waited until she could handle her fear and completely throw out the academic learning for a while. She rushed things and ended up trying to recreate school at home.
Meghan thinks it’s better to pull kids out right away, so they aren’t continually subjected to the oppressive system. She says the deschooling can happen together and parents can be really honest with their kids about what they are doing and why. They can tell them that they don’t know exactly what they are doing! Kids are really receptive to honesty. Jenna thinks it would be impossible to have that experience though, if the parent is still having major doubts about whether it’s going to work for them.
Jenna asks Meghan as a wrap-up question; what does deschooling mean to you and do you think there’s a point when you feel prepared for unschooling? Meghan says she doesn’t think there is ever a time when you are prepared for unschooling - you can’t deschool ‘enough’ to prepare. It's kind of like coming up with a perfect time to have kids. There’s always something that could be done more. Unschooling will crack you wide open. The idea of letting go of this entire formula for life and saying, not only am I going to reject that formula but I’m gonna trust that this process that is not laid out, has no rubrik or framework other than just being in non-oppressive relationships with other people and non-forced and coerced academics and just hold on for the ride, it’s hard work to lean into that trust. If you wait, the stories your kids are developing about themselves are still carrying on. She thinks pulling them away from that and deschooling together is a great way to start. Be honest with your kids, because honest parenting leads to freedom. We need to liberate ourselves from these oppressive ways of thinking and realize there’s not just one way to live. There’s a lot of ways to live.
Jenna pushes back on that a little because in her experience, she thinks because her kids were doing okay in the system, it would have been really advantageous for her to wait until she really trusted in the process. She would have been able to completely disregard all academic learning. Meghan says that parents need to be prepared for that - they need to be okay taking a long break from any academics. She encourages parents to sit down with their kids and pick a time frame on the calendar of when they will not be doing any kind of schooled learning, where you’ll all just hang out and have fun.
Meghan says, when you mess up you can apologize and let your children present their grievances. They may need to let that out. It could help you settle any turbulent moments that have come up.
Jenna says she feels like they’re in a good place now. She tries to give herself a little credit, seeing how their entire unschooling time has been during a pandemic and the things she’d imagined they would do together have all been canceled. In fact, they’ve spent a good majority of their time in lockdowns.
Jenna thinks this might also depend on the family - when to pull the kids out of school. Perhaps this will depend on the circumstances, the family, and a whole slew of other variables.
Meghan adds that every parent has a different language they use with their children, but honesty is helpful when talking with kids because kids are so gracious. All they really want is a close, connected relationship. Accepting when you’re wrong is really important. If you can’t be told that you’re wrong, SDE won’t be very successful because kids will call you out when you are inconsistent, don’t make sense, or when something is not adding up.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show
Rogue Learner YouTube Channel
Rogue Learner Podcast Episode 25 with Summer
Meghan - The Unschool Files
Akilah Richards - Raising Free People Podcast
Free Resources for Homeschoolers
Episode 11 and 12 with Naomi Fisher
Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
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GuestSummer
FB @thisbeautifullivingfreedom
www.mermaidartglass.com
I am a mostly self taught successful glass artist and entrepreneur who has had absolutely no formal education or instruction of any kind. I am a student of life itself, and I could not have had a better teacher. Not only was I unschooled, I was raised by the most incredible woman, whom I am honored to call my best friend and mother. Her parenting philosophy of love, respect, humility, authenticity, and nonviolence, is what has allowed me to be and grow according to my own natural development, passions, and impulses. As an adult I have found it fascinating to try an analyze why my relationship with my mom, myself, and life in general, is so unusual. I am extremely passionate about parenting and education. I have spent many years providing childcare to a wide range of children and have spent that time observing and studying adult child interaction, how it compares to my own experiences, and what makes it so different.
Show Notes
You are here because you're curious about self-directed learning. You want inspiration, practical tips, information, and a community of people to share your experiences with our guests. Advice and tips will help us all to create the most enriching learning environment we can for our kids. If that makes you curious.
You've come to the right place. So let's learn how we can best facilitate our children in their learning pursuits. Welcome to the rogue learner podcast.
Hey, hi everyone. And welcome back to the rogue learner podcast. If you're just tuning in for the first time. Welcome. I have been so busy the last four weeks, and we have a ton of catching up to do. I do plan to fill you all in, but I'll wait until next week since today's interview is already a super long one.
Welcome to all my new listeners. I'm so glad you're here. My name is Jenna. I'm the host of the rogue learner podcast. And I'm a mom of two awesome kids. My husband has joined me on the show periodically too. And his name is Chris. We are one year into our unschooling journey in episode 24, my husband and I review our year of unschooling.
So you can check that out. If you're interested in hearing more about our experience, I started this podcast as a way to connect with other people on the same path and to learn along the way, I've been lucky enough to interview some of the most influential researchers in this space. And I hope to continue on with a quality show that provides you and me with some invaluable information that will help guide our decisions about how we live peacefully with our kids.
I thought the show was going to focus mostly on education, but I'm realizing that so much of what I was searching for. A little to do with academic learning and so much more to do with my connection with my kids and family. I hope this podcast inspires your family to connect and live a more peaceful existence together.
One that puts respect for each other above all else. Today, I have the perfect guest on the show to speak on all of these specific topics. Summer is a grown unschooler who has never been to any formal schooling whatsoever. She's a unique find even in the world of unschool. Because many children at least take some formal classes along their unschooling journey.
At some point, her and her brothers were raised by their mother who saw the value in building relationships with her kids and trusted that her kids would become the best versions of themselves if she just supported them and loved them unconditionally. This was before the days of internet and unschooling forums.
So today you'll hear summer's unique perspective on growing up in an uncoerced home. There are so many moments where I actually paused the interview while editing to write down a quote, because she made so many profound. Summer is located in Hawaii. And the day we recorded, they had a pretty big storm blowing through, which means that during the last segment where I ask my guests the same four questions, summer's audio went out.
So we couldn't get a connection after that point. So I missed asking her the last few questions, getting her contact details and saying goodbye. So I do apologize in advance for the abrupt ending to the episode. Last thing before we kick off the show, I'm giving away free to learn by Peter Gray or changing our minds by Naomi Fisher, to enter into the drawing for your chance to win.
All you have to do is leave a written review on apple podcasts. Then email me with the book you'd like to win. And the screen name you left your review under. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. And I really hope you enjoy the interview. If you would like to be added to the conversation in some way, you can connect with me in the Facebook group on Instagram or click the voicemail link to leave a response to today's show and or co-host to show with me by clicking the link that says, join me on the show either way.
I can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's get on with today's show. Here's my interview with summer. Enjoy.
Show NotesJenna: Hi summer. Welcome to the show.
Summer: Aloha Hi.
Jenna: You are in lovely Hawaii and I'm quite jealous. I hear all your lovely sounds in the background.
Summer: Well, the birds morning here, so all the birds and roosters are pretty active.
Jenna: I love it. Um, I'm wrapping up my day. So I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, very tired and drained from being out in the cold.
Summer: That's so fun. I love that we can communicate like through time and space all at time.
Jenna: It's so awesome. Isn't it? I love that. That's the one good thing about technology? Well, I guess there's a few things, but I really like that too. So I am so eager to talk to you because I think it's a really rare treat to find somebody who has thoroughly been unschooled their entire lives.
And not only that, but has never had any formal schooling or formal classes or anything like that in their lives. That's I think quite rare. I think you even mentioned that you haven't met, have you met anyone that has had that same experience?
Summer: I don't think so. I've met a lot of homeschoolers and I've met a few unschoolers over the years, but I haven't actually met anyone that was like a hundred percent unschooled from the start.
Most people that I've met, who are unschooled did do some schooling. Either some public school or some Waldorf for, you know, a little bit of something in the beginning before their parents chose to go the unschooling route. So it's, um, it's my brothers and I seem to be kind of an anomaly and I didn't actually really realize that until somewhat recently.
I mean, I knew there weren't a lot of us out there, but I didn't realize that I was one of the oldest, fully unschooled people willing to even talk or share my experiences. So I've been getting a lot of interest lately.
Jenna: You're like museum worthy, right? Like, like, woo. Look at this specimen. Um, yeah. I think, I mean, for the most part, a lot of unschooling or homeschooling families have their kids take some sort of classes along the way, or yeah.
They go to high school for a year or, and try it out or, you know, they get curious and or then they go off to trade schools or colleges and in their adult lives. Right. So I wanted to actually get started with the word unschooling, because I think you have a different definition than maybe what other people have.
And I think your perspective is really important to be shared because you're the one who's actually experienced it. And I think for parents who are unschooling their kids or sending them to self directed schools, it's really comforting, not, not only comforting, but just it's something that we all are really curious about is to hear from someone who's experienced it, obviously, because we are choosing this for our children.
Right. And so we want to know that this is a good choice and who else to ask, but somebody who's actually experienced it for themselves. So, so yeah. Let's start there.
Summer: Well, I've heard, it's funny. You said that like wondering if it's a good choice because I've had people ask me that before. Like, um, do you think unschooling is good for, for all children or is it just like school where some kids do well and some kids don't and I kind of boggled by that question sometimes.
Cause to me, unschooling is really, yeah. Life without this idea that you have to force human beings against our will to do things you think they should do. So to me, it's like, how can that not be good for anyone? Like life is good for everyone. Life is good for every child. Every child is good for life.
And I, so I don't understand how it can be not good for some people and people are, well, my kids aren't self-motivated and I'm like, I just, I, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around this idea that unschooling wouldn't be good or wouldn't work quotations for some children, because I feel like it's life.
How can life not be good for someone it's just life without this idea that we have to be, he compelled, manipulated, coerced, bribed, forced into becoming something that other people think we should do. Or learning things that we're not interested in learning things that aren't useful to us of following some program that someone else made up somewhere that never even met you.
So I don't see how that could be. It's just doesn't it doesn't make sense to me. I think I come from this really different place of not having this lifetime of programming. So I get questions from parents sometimes, and it honestly takes me a minute to respond because I don't understand the question. I like won't understand where it's coming from.
I'm like, what do you, what do you mean? Why would you think someone would need. It's really interesting to me. So the term unschooling is, I've kind of grown uncomfortable with the term to be honest, because I used to use it very proudly. And it was a term that my family kind of fought for over the years.
I mean, I'm 32 now and my oldest brothers, uh, were they going to be 40? So 40 years ago when this all started for my mom, like there wasn't even a thing. Like no one had even heard of homeschooling in the area I grew up in let alone unschooling. So it was kind of this term that we, we protected and we fought for, and lately I've been realizing that this term unschooling means some really different things to different people.
And it does not mean what I thought it meant. And so that's been a little sad for me. I'm kind of needing to let go of and move on from that term because to me the most basic definition of the term unschooling is no forced education. Like that's the absolute, most basic, you know, boiled down version and it has no force education.
And I'm hearing people sometimes say this thing where they're like, um, well we do some required math and then we unschool for the rest of it. And I'm like, that's not, that's not even possible if you understood, like, to me, if you understood the first thing about unschooling, you would understand that if there's any kind of required, if you're requiring your child to use their brain in ways that they are uncomfortable with on interested in, on ready for or unwilling to, then you go against everything unschooling stands for.
So to me, unschooling isn't like a part-time thing. It's not like a method that you can use on your kids sometimes when you feel like it, it's not like this thing that you can throw in. So that's been interesting for me to like, come to the scene. That people have, like, I don't know what it is that people think unschooling is.
If it's something that you can use sometimes like, to me, it's not something you can use. It's actually, oh, it's a whole way of life. And it's a philosophy based on, on respect, absolute respect and honor of a human being. And it's, to me the obvious, it's almost like a by-product like unschooling to me as more of a symptom or a by-product of choosing to live in peace and harmony with children.
Because the way that I was raised was so much more than just not going to school like unschooling. Yes. It means no forced education, but it's about where that comes from and why you choose to do that. And if you're choosing to not put your kids in. It kind of goes into a whole thing, but basically in my family, for my mom, she chose to unschool and it wasn't like this conscious choice of like, I'm going to unschool so that it was actually like, I want to live in peace and harmony with my children.
Oh, I guess that means we're unschooling because that is what she felt like was the most respectful and nonviolent way to raise her kids was to not force us against our will. And she didn't feel like she was in a position, like a higher position than her children, like who she felt like, who am I to, to tell another human being how they should be or what they should do with their.
And so it was really more of, um, like, uh, we were a very, like a small tribe, the five of us, my mom and my three brothers and myself. And it was more about friendship and partnership and cooperation and living in peace and harmony together. My mom really trusts our natural human instincts to evolve. You know, she just could see that, like we would walk and we would talk all like with very little assistance and, um, she probably couldn't have stopped us if we tried.
And she just was like, why would anything be any different? Of course they will just continue to grow and evolve. Like everyone wants to thrive and be independent. So why would they not learn all the things that they would need to do that?
Where do you think she got this original thought? I mean, it's such a progressive thought too, especially if you have… you know, like I found it through Googling. I mean, this is not an era of time where there was just information, you know, information laden.
Summer: Yeah, exactly. I mean, we didn't have the internet, we didn't even have computers. We didn't, you know, it wasn't, it was not the time of screens. And so, no, my mom, well, I mean, she tells the story better.
I tend to get the details jumbled up because it's not actually from my own memory, but, um, she had my oldest brother really young. She was 21 and she didn't actually know that she was going to do anything different than anyone else when my brother came along and she just fell madly in love with this tiny human.
And she's like, I don't know. She has a really deep maternal instinct and she just gave her life to us. She did try to put my older brother in like a daycare at one point and she just thought it was the most bizarre thing. Like she's in love with this child. Why would I hand him to random strangers to be raised?
Like, this is weird and why would I leave him in a group of children where there's like one adult and they're not going to get enough love and attention. And I think she really just, something in her just thought it was odd. And it just went against her intuition. And my mom was very heart-based and intuitive and really listens to her gut instincts.
And somehow she was able to get in touch with that and listen to that. And she just knew something in her, told her that it was wrong to just leave her kid with strangers that didn't even love or care for him the way that she did. And why would she. Everything. So to her, it was actually kind of a selfish, um, choice.
And she likes to say, she did it for herself. She didn't do it for us. She did it so that she could hang out with us cause she liked us and a lot of other reasons, and it was just kind of little by little. It was one thing after another, you know, unschooling kind of came a little bit later, but it was like, why would I put my baby in a crib to cry themselves asleep?
Like that's denying their own natural impulse to be connected to me and my natural impulse to be connected to them. Like, why would we have these impulses if they were. And so it kind of came from like trusting life, like growing this trust in life and nature and just the natural bond between mother and child.
And she just didn't, she didn't understand why you should break that forcefully. And she felt like it was there for a reason why we have this draw to our mothers and why we have this attachment is healthy attachment. So it kind of, it stemmed from something different. It didn't stem from education. It stemmed actually more from, from this mother, child bond, this connection, this relationship, she just felt like there had to be another way, like why we don't have to break this and we don't have to push our children away and we don't have to be fighting and angry at each other.
And we can have a peaceful, beautiful harmonious home and be friends and be close. And she was right. She was absolutely right. And it took, you know, it was a really long journey for her. It was like many, many years and a lot of really. Self-inquiry and discovery and working on her own personal issues in order to stay connected with us and to recognize the things that break that connection and why we do them and what they cause and the psychological and emotional trauma that we cause children all the time, like completely unconsciously.
Jenna: Yeah. I think that's what's really difficult for a lot of parents today. And I mean, I speak for myself is this deschooling that has to go on, on the adults side to even get to a point where you can trust and live that lifestyle. I always say it's going to be a lifelong process because they don't.
Yeah, because I, you know, we're inundated with so much information from all areas of our lives that don't live this way and don't have these ideals and it's just a constant reflection and yeah, reframe and...
Summer: It's daily, you were trained like most adults are trained their whole lives to not follow their instincts to not, they're not free to make their own choices.
They're told that they're not smart enough. They're not good enough. Other people know best for you, you know, you should do what other people say and what other people want. And that's how you're trained. Your whole childhood is. To trust yourself, not to listen to your own instincts. And so when you get to be where you have your own children, that's like, you don't even know how to get in touch with that anymore.
And how can you allow your children that kind of freedom if you don't allow it for yourself, that's her kind of her place that she likes to talk about is it's about freeing yourself. And now we have this term D schooling, which I've only discovered recently, actually just in the last year, like, oh, D schooling.
That's a thing my mom's like, yeah, actually you call it what you will, but to her, it's about freeing yourself and right. Because how can you allow someone else to be free if you yourself are not, you know, emotionally and psychologically and, and how can you trust your child if you don't? So it's, yeah, it's definitely beautiful.
I think that people have come up with this, the schooling idea and that there's a lot of resources and support for that now. And that's really cool because, um, I think it's really, really important that it's, the kids are fine. Kids are fine. They're fine. It's the parents really that have the struggle and it's a lot of work.
It's hard work. It kind of reminds me the more and more I get into these conversations with parents. It very much reminds me of deprogramming, someone from a cult. It's like, you're in this cult mindset of what education is and how children learn and how we have to train them to make them behave properly in society.
And that's a whole belief system which is part of a much larger system. When you start to deprogram from that, it's like you're leaving a cult and you have to deprogram this whole thought system in order to be able to see something.
Jenna: Yeah, it's a struggle. I, it is, it is work. It's a job.
Summer:I can’t personally relate, obviously.I mean, to some degree, we all have programming of some kind, you know, so I'm sure, you know, I've got some of it as well. Well, I don't have the same from like the public school system. I was raised to always trust myself. And I was always told that I know what's best for me and that no one has the right or authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't do with myself and my life, with my mind, with my body, with my emotions, with my beliefs.
I was always told that I know that it's up to me, that I know that I'm responsible for myself. And I know what's right for myself and my life. And I was told that through. And when I say, yeah, when I say I was told that it's not just that I was told that verbally, like my mom told me that I was told that every day and how I was treated.
Actually I, what I could say is I was never told otherwise, and it's more like, it is more like I was allowed to keep that and I was never told otherwise.
Jenna: Yeah. That's uh, that, there's a difference there isn't there?
Summer: Yeah. There's a difference. It's not like I had to be taught that I really just had to not be taught the opposite of that.
Jenna: Right. Yeah.
I talked about this with, uh, Naomi Fisher. She's a psychologist who just recently published a book about self directed education. And we talked about how there's a lot of things we learn in school that are not explicitly taught obviously, but things like, oh, you are not good enough or, oh, you, you don't look good enough.
Or, I mean, they're just subtle, but constant and daily reminders. You, you either fit the bill or you don't. And those lessons actually are so much more powerful than the actual academics that go on over time. Constructs the human that comes out the other end, essentially. Right?
Summer: I, that is actually a point that I bring up a lot when I'm talking to unschooling parents, is that I feel like, yeah.
Academic learning. So math and science, reading those things, can be learned actually at any time in life. I mean, anytime you can learn that stuff when you're 80, if you want, like there's nothing stopping you at any point in your life to learn any kind of academic education at all, but there are certain things that absolutely get learned.
At certain stages in life and they cannot be avoided and they are extremely difficult to unlearn later on. And these are these, like these deep, psychological, emotional decisions that we make about ourselves. These beliefs that we develop through really young, super young, you know, we're talking 2, 3, 4 years old, like right in that age range is when most of us make these decisions about ourselves in there based on our environment and how we're treated.
And sometimes it's something really subtle. Sometimes it's something really big and we get lots of these through our childhood. And that's what, like, kind of develops our personalities in a way, certain coping mechanisms, you could say defenses and coping mechanisms is when you're three or four and you hand grandma a picture.
And instead of saying, that's beautiful, she says, that's a funny looking tree. And then all of a sudden in your head, you go, I'm not artistic. And then you carry that around with you, the rest of your life. Yeah. You know, you carry that around with you and it's like you, and then you find more proof for it along the way.
So you get these little seeds when you're young, a lot of people who have these really deep beliefs, they can't even find where they came from. I'm stupid. I'm ugly. I'm not good enough. I'm unlovable. I'm not trustworthy. You know, I'm not respectable, like all these kinds of things. And they happen really young and they say, stick, they just, they stick.
And I think it's really, it's really heartbreaking to me when I see people sacrificing these emotional decisions, like, okay, well, my kid might think they're stupid, but at least they'll have learned. And it's like, no, right. You can learn, you can learn math a lot easier later on, then you can learn that you're not stupid because it's like, yeah, it's hard to explain, but I feel like we all have these real, these beliefs about ourselves.
And oftentimes we don't know where they came from even.
Jenna: I have an example of a moment where I felt really just sorry for our society and where we're at, because there was a child, a teenager at one of the groups and he was talking about all the things that he's good at, you know? And so it can go the other way, but, but he was like, I'm good at English.
I'm good at math and whatever. And I thought, okay, but that also can be like, it's the mindset needs to be. I can learn anything and I can be good at anything. And to me, even just saying, these are the things that I'm good at is limited, it’s subtracting. Right? It's limiting all the things that you may possibly be good at.
Summer: Yeah. Like saying that like I'm good at this thing can kind of be like, you're saying you're not good at something else.
Jenna We'll go into high school and then maybe they get really, they base it off of their grades. Right. So they get really good grades in math and science, let's say, and then they choose a career in math and science, because they've always been told you're just really good at math and science.
But, what I would like to see change is not following things based on a specific credential you've passed, but actually things that you're really truly curious about. And you really want to know more about, or do better with, or provide some sort of value to the world in.
Summer: It's absolutely possible.
I mean, on that same topic, you're just reminding me of like one of the very common questions I get when people find out as I'm sorry. And from, you know, from people who are unschooling or interested in unschooling. And one of the most, some of I should say the most common questions I get are, how did you learn how to read and how did you learn how to write and you know, those basic things.
And then the other question is, well, what are you doing now? What are your brothers doing now? What did you grow up to be? And, um, what are you doing in the world? And are you successful? And are you supporting yourself? And like, that's what people want to know. And that to me is tragic. That is tragic. That that's your concern.
That's your question,is my kid gonna be okay in the world? Are they going to be successful? Are they going to be smart? Are they going to learn if I leave them alone? I really think it's sad that that's your first concern. Not that that's not a concern, but it's really sad that's the first thing that comes up that people want to talk to me about.
No one has ever gone, Oh, wow. You're unschooled. Do you have healthy relationships in your life? Like, are you happy? Have you found joy? Are you living the life that you love? No one asks that. They all want to know about monetary success.
Jenna: Well, that's what our society values.
Summer: So no one is asking about my mental or emotional state.
Like that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. And to me that's like, if you are, if that's why you're unschooling is so that your kids will be maybe more successful, I can't help you. My mom told me when I was little, I remember this conversation and I think it had to do with some pressure from some grandparents or something.
And me being kind of like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, because people would ask me that. And I think it's the worst thing you can possibly ask a child. She said, honey, she's like, I don't care what you do with your life. Like, I don't care if you want to be the garbage man. If you want to work in a gas station forever, I don't care.
I care that you follow your heart and you do what feels right for you and you stay true to yourself. That's what I care about. And it was like the pressure was completely off. I can be myself and whatever that ends up looking like in the world. And so if, if you want anything other than your child to be themselves and live their truth, then you're going to be looking for a method to change and fix them to alter their behavior and to change how they act in the world.
I don't think unschooling can help you with that. At least not in my version of unschooling and at least don't my version of unschooling and my mom's parenting philosophy at all, because it was all about allowing us to be who we already are. It wasn't about making us someone's okay. Are you only going to respect your child's autonomy and independence, if it makes them a better person someday, or are you going to do it because it's what's right, right now for you.
And because it's the only non-violent choice in being with children like it, to me, it's the only non-violent choice. Because any time that you begin to force another human being against their will to do any, anything, and you manipulate coerce, bribe anything, it's violence, it's violence against another human being.
And I don't care how old they are. And so if you're going to make that choice, just because of the outcome, and you're going to be like, well, I'll respect you now because someday it might have a good effect on you. I feel like you're in it for the wrong reasons, but if you respect your child now, because that's, what's right for you is to be a respectful human being.
I feel like that's, what's going to have even more powerful effect on your child because we can feel. You know, you can feel when someone's coming from a place of truth, like children, especially they can feel when you have an ulterior motive or agenda. So if you're treating them a certain way so that they will be a certain way it's going to backfire because they know they can sense it.
I've seen it. I've, you know, spent so many years in childcare myself. Like I can see it when I do that with a child. If I have any kind of manipulative behavior, if I say something so that they will a certain, you know, any of that, it always backfires. It really is about you. It's not about the child. It's about you doing what's right for yourself right now.
Like, do you want to be this manipulative, controlling human being to other human beings, regardless if it's your own child or your partner or your friend. So it's about how you want to be in the world, not how you want your kids to be in the world. And I think that's what's going to affect them is how you are.
And that's what it was with my mom. It's like I learned from who she was not necessarily what she did, if that makes sense. It's about like the place that she was coming from. And that's why often people want some kind of formula or method. Like someone asked me recently, well, what age should I wait before I introduce screens to my children?
And I was like, I'm not an authority. You know, this is not, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Like it's about where you're coming from and where that choice is coming from and how you see your child. And every child is unique and every parent is unique and every situation is unique. So it's not like there's an answer, this formula. And that's the thing is like people have that comfort in school and the school system, because it's like, we know at this age we're supposed to do this and this age, we're supposed to do that. And it's like, you have rules to follow. And parents are comfortable with that because they were, they were raised that way to rely on someone else telling them what to do.
And now you have someone else telling you what to do with your own children and telling your children what to do. And you never have to think for yourself, you can be lazy. You don't have to look within yourself and seek out these answers and follow your own intuition and your gut, and maybe be different and weird.
You don't have to do that. That's hard being sovereign, like being independent. It's hard. It's not easy. It's not comfortable. It's not, you know, you don't just get to like, oh, I just sit around and do whatever I want all day. I'm a self-employed artist. I have my own business and people say things to me like, well, if you do what you love, it's not work.
And I'm like, that is ludicrous. It's like, this is hard work to be self-motivated to be responsible for yourself, to be free. This is hard, but being told what to do and following orders, that's easy. You just keep your head down. You do what you're told to do. You don't question - everything's mapped out for you.
You don't have to dig deep within yourself to find your own truth and your own answers and maybe have some that are different from other people's and challenge other people. Basically with school, it’s set, it's all laid out for you. You don't have to question or wonder. And my mom said, I didn't not send you to school, just put you into another system.
And I feel like a lot of people are doing that. They're taking the child out of school. They want to unschool. They want to homeschool, but they want this very specific thing. They still want a guide book. They want a rule book. They want a method that they can use on their kids that will work. Instead of like finding their own truth within themselves and having this unique relationship with their very unique and original child - it's going to be different for everyone.
If you're actually present with life itself with your child, then it's going to be completely unique from anyone else, even in the unschooling community. So a lot of people are like, they've thrown out this one rule book, but they're floundering because they're looking for another manual, oh, at this age, we'll do this.
And I'll introduce screens at this age because this is developmentally appropriate. And this is, and it's like, it's still just this wanting to follow someone else's directions and not be responsible for your own choices. At least that's how I see it. I think it's very unconscious. I don't mean anyone's doing this on purpose at all.
I think it's absolutely terrifying for most people to take that leap. Like my mom, it wasn't easy. It was hard. She struggled, it was grueling. It's a lifelong thing. She's still doing her own interpersonal work. You can't just stop and be like, I have the answers. Now this is how you raise kids. This is the way you educate.
This is how all children learn. Like we're never going to have those answers because we're all unique individuals. So it's going to be different for everyone. And every relationship is unique. And I think that's where, that's what it's about for me is it's about the relationship and allowing that relationship to change and evolve and teach you and to be constantly learning from that relationship like you do with other relationships.
Jenna: Yeah. I think the problem with it is that most people don't have healthy relationships with themselves. So you can't have a good relationship with anybody unless you have a good relationship with yourself. That's why, you know, it goes back to the D schooling. I just find that such an important piece and almost, you know, looking back if I could change one thing, you know, like in retrospect, I think I would have spent a lot more time D schooling myself before the schooling, my children, like I would have spent maybe a year and I did to some degree, but I would say that like the intentionality was not for home educating.
It was more about like, I wanted it for myself. You know, I was in that stage of life where I was just kind of questioning and reflecting, but not with the intention of getting to a specific point where I could pull my kids out of school. I didn't have that foresight, but I really wish I would have, you know, at the moment I was like, okay, I am ready to home educate.
I would have started deschooling myself and then waiting a long time until I was properly ready to have the trust. You know, and wait till I was confident in my decision because as I was, you know, like pulling it all out and figuring it all out for myself, I was at the same time trying to help my kids along the deschooling process.
And it was actually really turbulent, you know, I mean, and it still is to some degree. So I think that process is just so critical and so instrumental in having a successful beginning.
Summer: And, you know, you talked about how people may do things on a certain schedule based on the system, right? Like, okay.
They go to school at age three or preschool, and then at five they start kindergarten. And these are the things that people say are developmentally appropriate and they should read at age six or whatever. Okay.
We get, we follow these guidelines and then it goes on to, I mean, a lot of adults are still following that law.
That our society made up. It's just made up anyway, you know, and people are still following that model. And a lot of people are breaking out of it now, but then they're still sending their kids to training for that model. So what I mean by that is like, you know, you get out of high school, you go to college and then you get married at a certain age.
You buy a house at a certain age, you have a kid at a certain age, you know, you've got this career. It's like that whole model, you know, that, like the American dream picket fence thing, it's like a lot of people are opting out of that now and having really different lives and choosing really different points in their life to have these experiences.
A lot of people aren't getting married until way later. Some people choose not to have children, people, you know, it's like, we're not following all this same model anymore. And yet we're still sending our kids into the system. That's training them for that model. Um, and so it's kind of funny. Like we're still sending them for the first leg of that rat race, but then we also want them to like, not be part of that rat race.
So, but we're still going to train them. So it's kind of funny. It's like why, you know, I want my children to be successful and independent and, and all these things. And a lot of people like their whole dream is to get out of this rat race. Their whole dream is to not have to work a nine to five. They want to be entrepreneurs.
They want to be more successful. They want freedom to travel. They want more time off. They want more time with their family.
Jenna: Well, maybe they don't want to be shackled by debt.
Yeah. And all of that. Exactly. Student loan debt and like all kinds of stuff. I mean, there's a whole, it's a whole thing.
And so a lot of people are like, well, I don't want that for my children. And then they're still sending them to the first leg of the training program for that life. And I find that really strange. Right?
Jenna: Right. And well, I think that, you know, the people who are waking up to this idea are people who are our age and are now experiencing that for ourselves.
So we're like, wait a minute. This isn't actually what I want. And so maybe my kids don't, it's not actually fulfilling and it's not actually necessary. And that you can set up your life in any which way. And there isn't a right or wrong way. And you don't have to follow these, this timeline as Arbus is totally just made up anyways.
You know, it's like someone just, it's just made up. It's not real. It's not true. It's just an idea. So it's funny that we all kind of have bought into this idea that we have to have this certain kind of life, that life happens in these certain stages. And if you didn't know, and you could just live in the mystery, you would enjoy a lot more what's happening.
And instead of trying to follow this, this whole saying, and there's so many different ways of living too. It's like I started my own business. I was only what I think I started making glass beads when I was about 14. And I started selling my work at local crafters and farmer's markets. At 16, I started my own business. It was making my own money at 16 because no one told me that wasn't a thing. No one told me I couldn't do that. Or that I had to wait till a certain age or I had to finish high school first. And then I had to go get a degree so that I could have a good career so that I could blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No one told me that I didn't have that idea shoved down my throat. So I made up my own path. I started doing what I love as I loved it. It was like, I was able to pursue those things as they came along, instead of like, no, no, no, that's just a hobby for later. That's not really a career. And I remember like my dad actually having those kinds of ideas cause he wasn't super on board with the whole unschooling thing.
My parents split up when I was a baby. I remember conversations with him, like through my teens and my early twenties, where he was like, that's a nice hobby, but you know, you should still get an education and go to college and get a degree so you can support yourself and not become dependent on a man.
And part of me was like, have you met me dad? Like, you know, that's never going to happen, but I understood because my mom had explained to me when I was young about my dad's family, I understood that it came from love and fear. So I didn't blame him, but it was a little bit sad for me, you know, to have him not trust and believe in me the way that my mom did, but he, he came around.
He came around. And at some point in my early twenties, I was looking, working for a glass blowing artist on the big island. And my dad came to visit. I took him to the shop and he saw my friend's place. And he was like, wait, that guy, he pays for that house and all that. And the wife and the car, everything through just making art.
And I was like, yeah, dad. And he was like, he was like, whoa. And it was that moment on, he never, ever mentioned anything about me, should be doing anything different with my life. And now he fully works my glass blowing as a career. Like he didn't see it as a career before he saw it as a hobby. I also, um, one of the things that I probably did differently was I learned as I did things, instead of pre-learning like a lot of people think, I mean, that's what school's for.
Right. It's pre preparation preparation. It's like, you're you pre learn. Right.
Jenna: They even call them preparatory schools.
Summer: Preparatory schools. Yeah. So they have the preparation for life because what you're doing right now, isn't life somehow. And. So, yeah, preparation. So like, I like to talk about that because I, it's kind of funny to me, there are some things that you need to learn ahead of time that you need to prepare for, obviously, right?
Like, if I'm going to have a surgery, I want that doc to have prepared, you know, like I want him educated, but there's a lot of things that you can learn as you go along. I guess everything in a sense can be learned as you go along, like you work your way up in a way. And so I always find it funny how people are, like, they take these individual elements, like out of an activity out of life, right?
So youextract this one element from life and then you teach it separately, like on its own, completely out of context in order to pre learn it for when it's going to be in context, which makes zero sense to me. Is 0 cents. You're like, okay, we're going to take this thing out of here and learn about it separately so that we can then use it when we put it all back together.
And you're like, well, why don't we just learn it altogether? Like, why are we doing this? Like, why are we separating out these things? We call them subjects, right? We take like one small element out and we try to learn it separately on its own with no application or purpose. Really. It has nothing to do with anything, it's just math all by itself.
And we want kids to like, learn this thing and memorize the saying when it has zero relevance to them or their life zero application, like they can't see the point. And yet you expect them to somehow retain this information. So that someday, maybe, maybe, and this is a maybe like, except for the very basic math, maybe your kid might need that somewhere down the road when it actually applies to real life, but then see, they won't have used it in real life.
So it's going to be another struggle and learning process and they'll have a hard time remembering what they learned because it didn't actually have any purpose or point to them at the time. Uh, so I think that's really funny because I learned things as I went. Some people enjoy pre-learning like my older brother, he likes studying things for what they are for the sake of learning.
I'm not really that way. I like to just jump in and go for it and learn as I go along. So we all have these really unique ways of learning as well. It's fascinating to me how we put kids in this school system when it's like to me, there's just look at me and my brothers. Like, we all have these very unique ways of learning and acquiring and absorbing information and it would have been just a tragedy.
Had we been forced to absorb it in a certain way? Like some of us probably would have been labeled stupid for sure.
Jenna: Yeah. Just having, so I just have two kids. And so, you would think that there wouldn't be such a huge discrepancy in the way that they learn, I mean, they have the same parents they've grown up in the same house, like all the things, but they could not be any more different.
I mean, everything about them is so unique to them as individuals. And it's remarkable to me that they survived the school system and they really did well, actually they were super successful in school, but at the cost of. Still thinking, uh, like what we talked about before the cost was that they have definite perceived opinions about themselves.
And like, for example, my son who is incredibly gifted in anything mathematical logical, that sort of thing, he thinks he's not good at math. And that just blows my mind. I'm like, what are you talking about? And he also always talks about how he's not very good at German, but he learned the language in like 18 months and was able to do the work of a first grader with all the other first graders within a year.
But he has this perception that he's not any good, so that can't possibly have come from us or him, you know, that was external.
Summer: Yeah. And he made it mean something about himself because it's different than being like, ah, I'm not very good at this thing, but you know, it doesn't actually mean anything about who you are.
But like children, oftentimes when something like that happens and they're like, I'm not good at this thing. That means I'm stupid. So it's like, they actually make it mean something about themselves and about who they are as a human being. And that's what we do in our society. That's what the school system does.
We make what you do mean something about who you are. And so kids have this idea that they're not good enough because they can't do the things other kids do, or the things that adults are trying to make them do at a certain time or, or they're rebelling or whatever it is. And so it's like, I can easily say like, oh, I'm not good at that thing, but that's just saying, I'm not good at that thing.
It doesn't mean anything about me. It doesn't mean that I'm any less of, um, less valuable or less lovable or less intelligent. It just means I'm not good at that thing. That's all it means. But in our society and in the school system, that's not all it means. We make it mean like all this stuff about. If you're not good at math, it means that, you know, you're not going to be, it means something about your future.
You know, if you're not good at math, it means you're not very intelligent. And if you think you're not very intelligent, then you're going to struggle in other areas as well, because you're going to be operating from that belief, which will make you probably unintelligent. I know that when I'm afraid of acting a certain way, I act more that way.
Or if I'm afraid of what this person thinks of me, I'll be even weirder around them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think when you're acting from that place of I'm stupid, you'll make mistakes. So when you're, when you're a kid and you have this idea, like I'm stupid and then you're trying so hard to prove that you're not stupid.
It's like you end up making a lot of mistakes. Cause you're so nervous. And you're trying so hard that you're not just being yourself and being natural and present with what is fear based. It's fear-based and you're overcompensating.
Jenna: Yeah. So I know that people are going to wonder though, like, what was your experience with reading, writing and math?
I mean, because you sound like somebody who was like, okay, I, you know, I'm motivated to do this. I want to do it. And then you, you essentially do it. You jumped right in feet first. So what was your experience with, with those specific subjects, you know, cause these are like the things that people are always just so worried about and my experience is so different, you know, I can't relate to that because my kids already do those things quite proficiently, you know?
Summer: Sure. Yeah. No, that is, that's a huge one. It's always about like, what about reading is really the big one that's reading is the big one. If I don't make my kid learn how to read, how are they going to learn how to read? And for firstly, I want to say about that is I feel like a lot of adults have this idea that their kid has to be motivated and make a decision in order to.
And I think that's not how it occurs to me at all. Learning happens on accident, like right. And laugh every second of the day. It's like not something you actually really have to do on purpose in that sense. Like, I don't feel like it's necessary for a child to have this motivation, like, oh, I'm interested in this thing.
I think I'm going to discover more about this. I've made a decision to explore this and learn about this more. That's not how it works. Like if you watch them, when they're tiny, like I babysit this one and a half year old little girl once a week right now, I just love observing. Like this age is so magical.
She doesn't make a decision to learn about something. She just picks a thing up and puts it in the other thing. And she's just doing, you know, she's just doing and experiencing and being in the moment, like she doesn't have to have this whole psychological process. To get to a point where she's learning something, learning is already happening before you even think about it.
Jenna: At that age, II think it's more about curiosity and experimentation.
Summer: It is at every age, every age.
Jenna: Older kids maybe, you know, from, from my experience with a 13 year old and an 11 year old. I know that they have specific things that they're interested in. Right. And then they choose or decide like, I want to get better at it.
Summer: Right, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. That definitely happens. And I have some memories of doing that myself, of being like, I think I want to learn about this and like going for it. So that does happen. I'm just saying that I don't think it's necessary for a child to know they're motivated and make a decision to learn in order for learning to happen.
Jenna: Right. It doesn't have to be a conscious,
Summer: Right, like an active process. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Be like this conscious choice and a lot of parents who are unschooling and they're new, maybe new to the unschooling and their children are young, they're waiting and they're looking and they're watching for their child to choose to learn something.
Instead of recognizing that they're already learning, they're already learning and they're learning without the conscious choice to learn. Like learning is just happening all the time. It's a by-product of living. And so when it comes to things like reading, writing and math and that kind of stuff, a lot of my learning actually happened by accident just through life because it's around and you can't help it.
It just happens through exposure. You know, if you see that symbol enough times, you're going to recognize it. And then you're going to be like, what's that symbol stand for? And someone's going to tell you, and then you're going to know that happens naturally and gradually. And then there's certain points where something grabs your interest particularly.
And then you'll maybe pursue that for a while. Maybe you'll lose interest. So that's how it would go for me. It's like, I feel like I, um, I grew in lots of different directions at lots of different times and would go in this direction for a minute and then backtrack, or then go in another direction. I'd pick up this thing and then realize that it wasn't the thing I was really interested in.
So that was happening all the time without the conscious thought process necessarily behind it. But to answer the actual question, yes. Reading and writing, I was a little bit older. So we had, there was a lot of negative influence from my dad's side of the family. There was a lot of pressure and a lot of negative influence and, um, it had some negative impacts on us as kids.
And I remember I actually have specific memories. I've written about interactions I've had with my grandma and stuff that made me self-conscious and she made me. Worry about myself and if I was going to be okay, like not going to school, because she would ask these questions, you know, and she would interrogate me when my brothers were out of the room and flashcards and be like, trying to teach me and like, like testing me on stuff.
And it would come from her own fear because she loved us, which I understand, but it still had a really negative impact on us. And so my oldest brother had it the worst because he was the first grandchild on both sides of the family. And, um, my mom just did everything opposite of everyone else. Wondered, do you know?
It was like, no, we're doing attachment parenting and breastfeed. It was all this more natural peaceful parenting kind of stuff that my dad's family just had no idea. They just were horrified. They thought we would be dependent and socially awkward and stupid. And like all this stuff, they were terrified, terrified.
So there was this negative influence. So I like to point that out just because my oldest brother, he didn't start reading, I think until he was about 12, because he was so freaked out from the family pressure that he was exposed to and the fear-mongering from them that he would get really nervous around anything academic, because they made it seem really scary.
And so my mom like was just like tried to give him as much space and freedom and remind him that he's absolutely brilliant and fine, and he's going to be fine and wonderful, but it's really hard when people that, you know, you know, and love and trust like your own grandparents, look at you, like something's wrong and they don't trust that.
You're going to be okay. You start to question if you're going to be okay. And So he had a little bit of a harder time with that. But then my second brother, he was the opposite. He started reading when he was four or five years old. And it was just because he wanted to read this one story in this one book.
And he sat my mom down one afternoon and they spent like a couple of hours and that was it. It was like, I want to read this story and it wasn't. I want to learn how to read it was, I want to read this story. And my mom had this really beautiful way of allowing us to show her how we wanted to learn as well.
Not just what and when, but how do we approach learning, really more like letting the questions come from us? So it was very child led in the sense that she wouldn't just be like, oh, you want to learn how to read. This is how you learn how to read. She's like, really? How do you want to learn? Like, do you want to learn the sounds first?
You want to learn how to read whole, you know, like it was like, she would kind of investigate that with us. What was our interest really? Because sometimes a child has an interest in something for a reason that you haven't anticipated and it's coming from. From some other interests or it's just one aspect of it that they're interested in.
And so if you can follow that drive, it'll go a lot further than if you impose your own ideas about what that interest holds for them or why they're learning that thing. So my, um, my second oldest brother, he learned how to read very, very quickly in like one afternoon, one story. And then my oldest brother, it kind of makes sense now seeing them as adults, because he's more physical in the works with his hands.
Like he's a sailor, he's a captain and, uh, runs a charter company and sails boats and likes to build things with his hands. And he just remodeled his whole house. And like, you know, that kind of thing. My second oldest brother is a computer nerd and works for some startup tech company and has a degree in political science and, you know, he's like the brain.
So it's interesting to see that later on in life. You know, when we were kids, Garrett was busy building things and clay was reading and I was making pretty things then, and Kai was making snacks. Like he became a chef. We all had the seeds of our true passions in us all along, but we explored various avenues and aspects of that.
So then when I learned how to read, I tried really young, but I was the kind of kid that was like, if I couldn't get it right, right away, I'd get frustrated and walk away from it. And luckily I was allowed to do that. So I remember pretty young. I want to learn how to read. Okay, let's do it. You know, like, this is what, how do you want to do this thing?
And then I'd just be like, this is, this is too hard. I don't, I don't want to do it. Like I would just walk away. My mom's like, okay, well, whatever. And I was really busy with my other interests. I was very much into creating tiny things, whatever it was like, you know, I was into sewing and fashion design and making clothes for my dolls and building fairy houses in the woods.
I was really into nature, really into plants, edible plants. My mom got me an herbalism class. I had all these other interests going on. And then when I was about 10 or 11, I decided I wanted to read a whole book by myself and I read Jonathan Livingston, seagull. I struggled through it and I was like, okay, but I did it, but I'm not, I don't really want to do that again right now.
So then maybe a year or so later, my friend recommended that I read Harry Potter and I didn't want to tell my friend, well, I can't read, you know, I don't want to read or whatever. And so my mom started reading it out loud to us and I got so involved in the story. And then my little brother was like, well, I want to know what happens.
And he started reading and that's how he learned how to read as well. He was like nine. He started reading Harry Potter. And then I started reading Harry Potter because I was like, there's no way he's going to get ahead in the story. And I don't want to wait for my mom to read out loud to me. So I basically grabbed that book and sat down on the couch and made myself sit that I was like, I'm going to do this.
So there was that decision and that determination. Um, but I had already had so many years of exposure to reading my mom, read to us all the time and was always involved in the present and answering questions and all that. So I had all these years of being exposed to reading and letters and words and looking at pages while they're being read and then trying to read myself on occasion.
So it happened in several batches of learning over the years. And then the final push was just Harry Potter. I sat down and it took me about an hour or two at that point till I was reading super fluently and something just clicked in my brain. And then I was just like, I couldn't believe it. Like, it was the most thrilling experience.
I was just like, overcome. Like I couldn't, I felt like I was, it was like, I would describe it now. Like I felt like I discovered some new, amazing drug. I was just like, this is amazing. And I devoured it. I read Harry Potter in two days, and then I read the second book and two or three days, and it just went like that.
I read probably at least six hours a day, if not more for a couple of years there. And my mom would have to be like, you know, honey, you might want to move your body. You might want to get up and go outside for a minute. And like, you know, she had to kind of like help me because I became really sedentary and just obsessed with fantasy novels.
And then I read so many things. I evenI fell in love with Shakespeare. I read like every Shakespeare play ever written just because I loved them on my own. And then I found out later, as a teenager, that people were forced to read that stuff in school and they hated it. And so I read a lot of classic literature and I loved language and words and writing, and it was just this beautiful, magical thing.
And so when I hear people concerned about their kids learning how to read, I'm always like, that is the last thing I would worry about because. I feel like it's this absolute, amazing, magical thing. Like, everyone's gonna want to crack that code at some point because it grants you this independence and children naturally crave independence.
I mean, you see them, they kind of go back and forth and as they get older, they want more and more independence. No, I want to do it myself. No, I want to get my own thing. No, I want to do this. I want it. You know, like they want independence from you and all of these skills that we're talking about. All these academic skills, those all grant independence.
So at some point they're going to want it because they're not going to want what kid is going to want to be 12, 13 years old sitting in a restaurant and have to have you read the menu. They don't want that. They don't want to be dependent. They want independence. They want to be able to do it themselves.
Jenna: I want to pause there. two things that you said there that, um, really stuck out to me. So, first of all, I know that when kids are, they wait until there's that motivation, there's that thing that they want to achieve and they need this and this and this, you know, criteria. These things have to be met before they can do the thing, right?
Like they have to know how to add or, you know, whatever the, whatever the skill is. And so I've heard this over and over again with unschoolers and home educators in general, that when that happens, the thing that they need to learn, that skill is so rapidly achieved because it's, what's holding them back from getting to their goal, there's a driving force behind it.
That it’s just unstoppable.
Yeah. And what's interesting to me is that we spend years teaching kids how to read some times and then practicing it over and over again. And that could have all been avoided that, you know, that time spent that time wasted sitting and doing these drills and practice and worksheets and, you know, reading out loud in groups and all of that stuff could have been completely avoided if you just waited until that spark came intrinsically, right?
Summer: Yeah, because it will. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people, they don't trust that, they don't believe. And I think it comes down to like your basic beliefs about human nature and what a human being is born with. And I believe that they're born with this evolving spirit. They don't want to be stagnant and sedentary, like no human being is born lazy.
It's just not a thing. It's like, they learn how to walk and talk. Like you couldn't stop them if you wanted to. And without the psychological blocks that get built throughout life, like it would just continue that way. And I feel like, yeah, every child who grows up in a healthy, supportive environment is going to find a personal reason to learn these things that they need because they're going to be needed.
So that's the other thing I think is funny is that people are like, well, they need to learn these things. And I'm like, well, if they need to learn them, then they will, you're saying, need, need means it's actually necessary. Which means they won't be able to avoid it. You're kind of contradicting yourself.
If you think you need to force someone to learn something that's needed, because if it's needed for them, they will. You will acquire these tools that you need to live your own life because who doesn't want that. And then people are like, well, if you're really afraid of your 30 year old son living in your basement and never doing anything, I think that's what people are afraid of.
They're afraid their kids are going to amount to nothing, and they're going to be dependent forever. And they're just going to sit around and be lazy. I just don't really get that because I don't see anyone that's been raised like this that's ended up that way. I see a lot of people in public school.
Like I see that our system is pumping out people who don't know how to live their own life. You know, we have this massive homeless population in our country. We have the amount of, um, medical, like psychological problems that we have mental illness, like all these things. And yet we still trust in the system that is creating that.
And I'm not saying that school alone, I'm talking about the whole system. That school is a part of it. I don't know, I'm like, there's no guarantee you send your kid to school. Like they still might end up this other way, like unhappy and broken and depressed and all the, all of these things. So why would you keep S like there's no guarantee in school.
So why do you feel so much safer? And I wonder why we're not changing how we're raising children, because that's where it starts for me. Like, that's where it starts. If you want a healthy human, you start from infancy and it's about protecting their emotional and mental state, because that's what's going to cause them to be successful.
You can know all the math and all the science and all the English in the whole world. Like you can be so highly educated and you can still be a miserable, awful person who treats people like crap, who hates the world, who locks himself away. Like education doesn't have anything to do. With joy and happiness and passion and love and, and health and wellness.
So I think that it's interesting that we still focus on these things instead of like, let's take care of the real problem here, which is our psychological, emotional health and wellbeing. And I feel like the academic stuff will take care of itself because if you're healthy, psychologically and emotionally, then you, you want to thrive and be happy.
And so you will acquire those skills that you need to do that.
Jenna: I think it's about, you know, like we talked about before, if you don't feel happy within yourself, you can't live a happy life. Yeah.
Summer: Yeah. Fulfilling, satisfying. It really starts there.
Jenna: And I wanted to switch gears just a little bit because I know people are going to be interested about how your lifestyle was, you know, like more about what kind of learning resources did you have in your home? What kind of, what, what sort of things did you guys do? And, and let's talk a little bit about strewing because I know you have an opinion about that. And I, I'm very eager to hear it because I like bringing on different perspectives and hearing different people's opinions.
Summer: Well this, I mean, this strewing thing is very simple. It's actually only something I really heard about recently, but it's very simple. It's just what we talked about earlier is that anytime you have an agenda and you're, you're trying to manipulate your child, it's going to backfire.
I feel like this consciously strewing, like I'm going to leave this here so that my kid might get interested so that they might learn and be successful someday. It's all coming from. And it's still, it's still, to me, I'm manipulative behavior. Now there's nothing wrong with like, oh, you see a book, you know, when you're out and about that day.
And you're like, oh, I think, you know, my kid might really like that book and you grab it and then you leave it on the coffee table when you get home. And that's like, that happens if it happens naturally just from, because that's what's happening in your life and you saw this thing and it reminded you of this person.
And so you've got it for them. That's its own thing. But if you're purposefully doing it with this agenda to get your kids to learn, and you're like purposely leaving things in their way, to me, it's just another manipulative behavior because I would not appreciate it if my mom was doing that to me. I would not appreciate that if my boyfriend was doing that to me, I wouldn't do that to my boyfriend.
If I want him to be educated about something, I'm not going to be like, oh, I'll just leave this book here and he might see it and then maybe he'll get interested. And then we can have this conversation. Like that's really disrespected. I would feel like that's really disrespectful. If someone did that to me, I'd be like, why don't you just talk to me about it?
Why didn't you just show me the book when you it's about,
Jenna: it's about intentionality.
Summer: It's the same thing as what I was talking about before, it's not just, it's not necessarily the action. It's about where that action is coming from. You know, so if my mom comes home and leaves a book on the table, she's like, oh yeah, I just saw this.
I thought you might like it. I'm like, oh, cool, thanks mom. You know, like that's, that's a thing. Like I can feel where she's coming from with that. But if she does it sneakily and she's like doing it secretly in her own head and not telling me about it and like leaving things for me to find so that I might try and change me because that's what it's about.
It's like, anytime you're trying to like, change your child or make them a certain way or get them interested in a certain thing. To me, that's manipulative. And that's in any relationship, that's not just children. And so I like to take these things that we take for granted in adult relationships and, and apply them to children.
How would you feel if your partner was treating you the way that you treat your children? And so there's nothing wrong with strewing in and of itself. I really encourage all parents to just question where they're coming from every time they do or say something like that, don't just take the first answer that pops up in your head.
Like, I mean, really dig into it. You know, why did I say that? Where is that coming from, sit with yourself and look into that. And that's all part of the D schooling process. You know, why did I say that? What did I want from my child at that moment? What response was I trying to elicit? You know? And when fear comes up, like the thought like, oh, they're not gonna question that thought.
Like, why, where did this thought come from? And where did I get this idea? And why do I believe it? And question if it's true for you. And so the thing with the strewing is to me, it's just like, um, it's just like any other kind of method that we get this idea in our head, and then we believe it. And then we're trying to use this method on our children too, to manipulate them into being a certain way, instead of just sharing something from joy and love, which could happen naturally without this psychological process of I'm going to do this thing.
So that they'll see it so that they'll have this, so that'll have this effect and then there'll be like this. So it's kind of hard to describe because to me, it's not necessarily about the action. It's about the process behind it and the cause where it's coming from, right. Adults are extremely manipulative toward children without realizing it unconsciously all the time.
And sometimes they'll be like, well, no, I'm doing this because I love them. And I'm like, yes, Let's look a little bit deeper because that's an easy answer and oftentimes it's a little harder to get to the truth. So don't always accept, you know, that first answer, like sit with the question and like, let it, let it dig into you and show you.
What's really going on.
Jenna: Yeah. I want to get to this question and we're going on, you know, almost two hours. I want to be respectful of your time. I think I'm going to have to have you back on because we have so many topics to cover, but I definitely want to talk about this one. So please explain to me a little bit about how your mom handled boundaries in your home because I think as unschooling parents, I mean, some people take it to an extreme where there's like no guidelines or house rules.
Summer: Or kids become dictators and it's just like all over everything, anytime, anywhere, whatever you want. And there's no kind of structure to the household.
Jenna: Yeah. I've seen that. Right. And you talked about living harmoniously and peacefully and joyfully. And to me, when I first started this journey and started reading about these parenting styles within the unschooling community, it occurred to me that that wasn't going to work for me because I do value peace and harmony and that doesn't seem to coincide with having boundaries and being able to live communally.
Summer: A lot of people assume, you know, like when I remember when I was younger too, and like my mom would talk to people and it was all about like, to her, it's all about freedom. And people would assume that we just had this chaotic household, you know, food fights and up all night.
And you know, like who knows what they were thinking it was insanity and absolute chaos. That's not how it was at all. And this is where it comes down to. Like my mom is, she really operates from the heart and from her intuition and her gut. And so it wasn't as much of a psychological process for her, which I think is really, really beautiful because then she didn't have quite so much in the way she wasn't trying to follow someone else's model.
She was really making it up as she went along. And she was very clear about that with us. So it was really, we operated, um, see equality goes both ways and respect goes both ways. So oftentimes what I'm seeing is I'm seeing people in, in an effort to allow their children freedom, they're giving up their own freedom and that's not freedom because anytime that someone's freedom is being sacrificed to another person's freedom, then that is not true.
Freedom. My mom had this beautiful way of somehow finding this balance of like where all of our freedoms, curbed, each other's freedoms, like where, where do those freedom. And affect one another. And so that's really interesting and it's difficult to explain sometimes, but I like to explain it in the sense that like, we didn't always have physical freedom because you can't just do whatever you want.
Like you can. Like I heard recently about an unschooling mom who was struggling because her two sons were just tearing up the house and destroyed the couches. And she was living in a rental and they broke a wall and like all this stuff, but she's like, but I'm trying to unschool and let them be free and all this.
And I was like, that's not, has nothing to do with unschooling actually has nothing to do with that of schooling. In my family, we really operated like a small tribe, like a democratic house where we would sit and discuss things together. And we would all be part of the decision making process. And we would all have to make adjustments and sacrifices for each other.
So it wasn't like my mom was this dictator, like in when there's equality, it means that not one is above the other. So our freedom was not more or less important than her. She had this beautiful way of kind of being that facilitator. And it always made sense. And she was always willing to hear us out and our concerns and considerations and to change and adjust and grow.
And we tried so many different things, you know, it was kind of like, we all had to help out with the chores. That's kind of how it works. And when you're living in any community, you don't just get to leave your dishes in the sink. Like everyone has to do their part and clean up after themselves. It's not fair to leave that all on one person.
So we worked out so many different ways, you know, like there was a time when mom would make a list and we'd all sign up for the chores that we wanted. Um, there was a time when we tried all doing our chores in the morning, there was a time when we tried doing them at different times of the day. There was a time when we tried rotating, there was, we tried so many things to find what worked for us.
So it wasn't just like she would make up these rules and implement them. It was very much like we were all figuring it out together all the time. And it was all about how can we live in peace and harmony together? So that's what, what came first was the peace and harmony of our home. And there were very few times in my life I can remember my mom like putting her foot down and I feel like she was totally justified and it made sense to us and we respect.
Jenna: Yeah, I think the difference is the top down approach. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was more like, and that's, we've had those similar conversations in our family a million times, like, okay, it was working, but now it's not, let's see how, how can we change it? Because I still feel like I'm being burdened more than the rest or, you know, whatever.
Summer: Yeah, no, you constantly have to be willing to change and evolve because especially with children because they are developing so quickly that it's going to be changing and evolving all the time. And you're never going to come to this place where you're like, okay, we've got it now.
It's like, it's an ever evolving growing thing. It's like a garden and you, you don't get to just stop. And it never ends, it’s not stagnant. And you just, like, we found the way it's like everyone's different. And every combination of people is different. So every family is going to have to kind of find that way that works for them.
But we. You know, we had a routine and we found the things that worked for us, and it was really beautiful, happy, and peaceful childhood, is how I remember it. And my mom was only a few times really that she had like certain things that she would put her foot down about. And, and that had to do with when it came to protecting our health and wellbeing.
And when she felt like something was harmful or dangerous was the only time that she would really step in and kind of pull the mom card. And I'm super, super grateful that she did. And like, I feel that that's a parent's job is to protect their child so that their child can develop according to their own natural instincts and, and brain development, you know, but there are certain things that get introduced that can alter that, that can affect a child's natural brain development in, in negative ways.
Um, felt that that was her job to step in and prevent that so that we were allowed to develop free reading. Naturally.
Jenna: Can you give an example?
Summer: Well, you know, I, yes, but I also don't want to be like judgmental of other people who feel it, those aren't harmful because everyone's a little bit different.
Jenna: Just for your own life experience, like, was there, what was the moment that you remember?
Summer: Yeah, we didn't have video games and that's, uh, well, people are, you know, the screen time thing is a really controversial topic and I don't usually talk about it cause I feel like it's something everyone kind of has to discover for themselves if it works for them or not. And some people are doing fine with the unlimited screen time and that's fine.
But in my childhood also, it's very different. Like 30 years ago, technology wasn’t very good. So we didn't have handheld devices and stuff. So it's a different game. Now my mom actually threw out the TV when I was little, she just saw the effect it had on my brothers. And she was like, this makes you guys so weird and uncomfortable and agro.
And she's like, why am I even doing this? So to her, again, it wasn't like a psychological process of if this is good or bad, or if I should let them because of this and that and the other. And it wasn't like that. It was really just like her mother's intuition stepped in and was like, this is having a really negative effect on my children.
And they were at that age where it wasn't like you had a conversation about it, you know, two, three years old. And it was just like, ah, we're just not going to have TV. And so we didn't, I have TV. And then when I was a little bit older, we did movies. Yeah. Documentaries and stuff. And we work that out as a family, like how much and when, and that kind of thing.
So it was another one of those things that we, uh, discussed altogether. And then there was a time when my brothers were going to their friends to play video games. My mom was not going to say they couldn't do it when they weren't in the house. You know, like she had this really cool way of saying like, this is our community space and we need to do what works best for everyone in this space, outside of this space, you're a free sovereign individual, you know?
Right. So within this space though, like we do have guidelines and rules for what works for everyone. It's kind of like, you know, the democratic free school, summer hill. I remember watching the movie. It's a great movie by the way, um, summer hill, the movie, and there's this scene where they're like, they make up rules together as a school.
And one of them was like, you can't skateboard inside. Cause someone got a splinter in their foot. And I was like, yeah, that's basically how my family worked. It was like, no, we don't do video games in this house because then Garrett and clay, if they play video games, they become mean and nasty and they treat Kaia and I really poorly, and that's not right.
And so it was like, that's not okay in this house. And mom also, and this is where it gets really hard to have this conversation sometimes because it's so easily misunderstood. And I have a hard time communicating it properly, but there's things that my mom just didn't support and that was one of them.
So she wasn't going to buy us something that she felt was unhealthy and she didn't want around herself. So she just didn't support it. She didn't take it away. We never had it in the first place. And they went and played video games with their friends, and that was okay for a little bit. And then they would come home really angry and unkind to me and my younger brother, which broke my heart.
I remember this because they were the most wonderful. And they would come home and it was awful. And then my mom would be upset and I remember her crying and crying in front of them and telling them like, this is really painful for me to see you like this. And I don't want to be around you when you're acting like this.
I don't want to be around you when you're like this and we're hurt and we love you and we miss you. And if you want to play video games, then just don't come home for an hour or so afterwards, so that you can detox and be yourself when you get home. And that's what we worked out actually.
And they agreed to that. So I think everyone has to find the different things that work for them. And nowadays, you know, like people are talking about how much educational value there is in screen times and video games. And I don't argue that. Of course there is, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs to do unlimited screen time.
It doesn't mean that it's healthy or safe. It doesn't mean that it's not, I'm not saying one way or the other. I just know that it did not work for my face. And then when we got a little bit older, we got a computer. When the internet came out, we got a computer and internet and we all figured out how to use and share that time and use the internet to research things and watch cool videos.
And the educational resources online now are absolutely amazing. I use them a lot myself. We were a low tech family, low tech lifestyle because that's what worked for us and my mom. It was all about whatever supported the peace and harmony of the home. So whatever was disruptive to that got investigated and then thrown out or not, depending on the outcome of our family investigation into that thing.
And then, you know, my mom was a super, super health nut, so there were things that she wouldn't buy for us. And also she was really, really passionate about animal cruelty. And so there were things she wouldn't buy because they participated in that. And she's like, I'm not going to contribute when you can raise your own money and buy that if you want.
You know, so that's kind of where freedom comes in. Between the parent and the child is like, I, I really do feel that a parent has the freedom to say, I don't support this and I don't want to participate in this, but that doesn't mean that you can force your child not to, if they find the means to do that on their own.
So that's kind of an interesting and different thing. I watched a video with an unschooling mom who was like, she made a video of her and her son and she was going into a McDonald's to buy her son a hamburger. And she was like, I'm going to buy it even though I don't eat meat and I don't believe in McDonald's. This is what my child wants.So I'm going to do it for him because he's free.
And I was like, yeah, he is free, but you are also free to say, honey, I don't want to go into McDonald's and buy that hamburger for you. So you can figure out a way to do that on your own. Like there's freedom goes both ways. And equality goes both ways and your child is free to not like that.
You know, they're free to be upset about it. So it's kind of, it's a really hard thing to explain because to me, it gets kind of more energetic and emotional, like how that works and that communication and that relationship and with my mom and I, like, I never felt like she was encroaching on my freedom.
I felt like she was standing up for herself and I learned how to do the same from seeing her do that. So like she set this example of being strong and staying committed to her convictions and holding to her principles without imposing them on us. And so I also learned how to do that. Like how to stand up for myself and say, this doesn't feel right for me.
I don't support this. I don't want to be involved in this, but without imposing it on other people, that's how she was. And I think that was just super, super beautiful. And there were times where she didn't want to buy factory farm meat. And it was like, she didn't just say, no, she was like, this is why.
And she took us to an animal sanctuary and we watched videos of factory farming and we all were like, yep, that's right. We don't want to be part of that either. Mom. Thanks. You know, so she always explained her position and made it clear and also was like, you know, like with the video games or like, I'm sorry, I don't want to participate in this.
And I don't want to support you in something that I feel is harming you, but you're free to do as you please. I just don't want to be part of it. And we respected her for that. I feel like that was one of the things that earned my respect immensely was her being her own independent, sovereign being and allowing us to do the same.
And finding that balance and that line where you're not crossing into each other's space and trying to control each other, but you're also staying true to yourself and your own beliefs and your own convictions.
Jenna: Then also, if you do, then you go back and have a discussion about how you are, sorry.
Summer: Yeah. Oh absolutely.
My mom had an immense amount of humility. She was very vulnerable with us and very open and very honest and always, and sometimes she would be like, yeah, I don't know why I said that earlier. You guys, I'm really sorry. I was just like, whatever, like she apologized all the time and she also would tell us she didn't know what she was doing.
We would sit together as a family and she'd be like, guys, I don't know what to do about this. This is really hard for me. Like, what do you think we should do? Like that was the video game thing. Her being like this isn't working for everyone. You know, like this is really hard for me and this is painful and this is how it feels.
And this is what I'm seeing in you. And this is what I'm afraid of. And this is, you know, and it was like just this very open, raw, real, honest, vulnerable communication, and constant humility of being like, I don't know how to deal with this. Help me out here. Let's do this together and not being like, she always had all the answers and then being willing to change it, to get changed a little while down the road.
You know, I think, um, my little brother got like one of those handheld video gamey things when he was, I don't know, we were a little older. I think my older brothers had moved out and stuff and we had a different thing. So it wasn't always like never any video games in the house. It was just like, we were constantly finding what worked for us and how to function together as a family.
And I think that's really important that you never come to this place where you're so attached to things, being a certain way that you're not willing to change them for them.
Jenna: I think the best way to wrap up this conversation is back to sort of where we began with the fact that it really starts with relationships like relationships with yourself, relationships with each other.
Because if you are staying in tune with that, like if that is in balance, that should be your guiding light. There's no, there's no book or, you know, structured rules that are going to work for every single family. You are unique, your family is unique, but if you're feeling like everything is harmonious within your family group, then you're probably doing all right.Like that's a good sign.
Summer: I've told a lot of moms, like you take care of the relationship and the rest will take care of itself. Um, and I don't feel like it's a choice between. Sacrificing, you know, academic learning for the relationship or sacrificing. But I do feel like you often people are sacrificing their connection, their relationship with their child for that, for academic learning.
But I feel like if you take care of the relationship and the connection and your child's emotional and psychological wellbeing, the academic learning will take care of itself. It doesn't, it hasn't really need you to manage it. It just needs you to be available and willing, but it really doesn't even need you to know that it's happening.
Like learning does not require your attention. I mean, your child's learning doesn't require your attention. Um, in that sense, like, it doesn't need you to know that it's happening or to focus on it or to monitor it or like keep track of it or anything like that. It can happen without you knowing anything about it.
And all it really needs is that connection, that relationship with you, because then your children feel safe to come to you and ask you these questions. Which is how they learn, you know, and sit down with you and let you teach them something that they're interested in because they feel safe and they trust you.
And so if you have that connection, that trust and that mutual respect, then they'll be fine. They'll learn everything they need to learn because they'll have that security and they'll have that safety and you can go anywhere from there.
Jenna: I think that's a great, that's a great way to wrap it up. That is like the, that is such a great last word.
I love it. Um, before you go, though, I have four questions that I ask every guest on the show. Would you be open to answering them?
Summer: Sure.
Jenna: Okay. So the first question is, what are you curious about right now? Like what are you digging into.
Summer: Well, I, that's a good question. I mean, I'm always curious about my glass blowing.
I was blowing glass all day yesterday. I made a whole bunch of big pieces and I was experimenting with a whole new color and design patterns. So I'm very curious to see how those turn out. I don't get to pick them up until this afternoon, but right now I'm also really into my garden and I'm building a chicken coop.
So I'm curious, I'm learning about chickens and how to keep chickens. So that's been fun and my neighbor is having a baby and she's a good friend of mine. So I'm actually learning a bit more about that whole process, pregnancy and birthing. And I've always been fascinated about that and I'm made with free and doula and that kind of stuff.
Jenna: That is my like number one. Well, I guess number two, passion aside from education, I am like obsessed with the birth process. So anyway, um, so onto the second question? What is your favorite way to learn?
Summer: Oh, um, I really don't know how to answer that question because I feel like I learn in so many different ways and sometimes unconsciously, but I primarily like if I'm going to learn something on purpose consciously, I, I think I'm mostly a visual type of learner I like to be shown.
And then I like to try it myself.
Jenna: I think that's so funny. A lot of people say that, you know, like that's a hard question to answer. And, but I think that just is the. That comes from unschoolers. Like, I don't think everybody would answer that way. So I always kind of like grimace and like laugh a little bit internally when I hear the people to be like, that is such a hard question. I'm like only an unschooler, I think, would say that.
Summer: It really is because I think that we weren't told that we had to have a certain way to learn either. So like a lot of people will grow up in the school system and they get this idea that they learn a certain way. And unschoolers often times we’re like, I don't know. I just learn stuff.
Jenna: So, again, I'm very sorry about that. Abrupt ending to the interview. I just wanted to say that I am so grateful that summer joined us on the show today and gave us so much food for thought. So many things to think about and consider in our families. And also I wanted to tell you how you can connect with her.
If you have any questions or want to, you know, reach out to her directly, you can find her on Facebook at this beautiful living freedom, or she has a website for her glass art it's called mermaid art glass.com. So thanks again for joining me, Summer. And I look forward to talking to you again in the future.
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Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show
Episode 024 - Reflections After One Year of Unschooling
Summerhill (The Movie)
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Show Notes
On today’s show, Chris and Jenna wanted to talk about their takeaways and experiences after one full year of unschooling. Chris shares how he had expectations in the beginning that homeschool would be a replication of the schooled environment, only more customised, lively and fun. He now admits that it was a pretty silly idea. He realized that everyone learns differently and therefore we require different learning environments. It took a while to observe and understand our own family dynamics and what we each need as individuals. It took a long time for us to find the right rhythm for each of our children and we got frustrated along the way, mostly because we had our own expectations. It takes more than a few weeks of trial and error.
Jenna says her first takeaway was that they should have spent more time deschooling. They jumped into homeschooling quickly and purchased a curriculum. Of course, that meant the learning wasn’t flexible or adaptable in any way and it was still information that “someone else” wanted their kids to learn. She says it sort of took up a lot of their time - it took them a while before they realized that a curriculum was not going to work for them. She wishes they had spent more time just being and observing their kids to see what they were into and what stimulates them. For example, they now know that their daughter needs activities outside the house regularly, whereas their son is happy at home. As an unschooling parent, it’s even difficult sometimes to provide the right environment for all your children when they have such opposing needs. Jenna says that they definitely didn’t give themselves enough time to deschool and really trust the process. She thinks that would have resulted in a much smoother transition. She remembers flip-flopping between thinking it was all working and then being scared and worried that it wasn’t. They had a lot of fear come up. She thinks it would have been best to just get to know the kids, learn more about their interests and relax together before inviting them to try new experiences like online classes, activities, or any other offerings.
Chris says he thinks taking our time and flip-flopping was okay. He adds that it was our learning process. He says one of the things he’s really walked away from this year knowing is that we have the gift of time with unschooling. There is no hurrying through life. Taking our time to get to where we are today was not wasted. When Chris looks back on his own life, he can remember many instances in which he truly did waste his time because he was pursuing topics, careers and education that wasn’t actually relevant to him or that he didn’t want to study. He says that he rushed into university studies because of the timeline society gives us on when things ought to be completed. In homeschooling you can make mistakes because you can change course easily and without any serious repercussions. Chris says that our kids have 7-10 years (or the rest of their school years) to focus on things they’re interested in.
Jenna challenges Chris by saying that seeing those years (as schooling years) is actually a schooled mindset and just goes to show that we still have a lot of deschooling to do. Of course, with unschooling there are no guardrails on how long you spend learning about things that interest you. The learning never really ends or begins. It’s a continuum.
Chris laughs and adds that he basically just argued against his own point - we actually have the gift of time! There are no rules about when we are “done” or “ready.” It’s all individual. He remembers feeling very immature when he moved out and started university. He simply wasn’t ready to make a decision that would impact the rest of his life.
Jenna says she can’t emphasize it enough that families considering homeschooling really take the time to deschool. She says she thinks her children got a bad impression of what homeschooling would be like since she herself wasn't really clear on what they were doing. She also hadn’t spent the time connecting with the kids and improving their relationships first. This is a necessary step! It’s gentle and respectful. She believes it can actually be damaging to just jump feet first into a curriculum and have expectations because this is how the kids start their journey into this lifestyle. It’s not a great first impression! She advises families to just relax, research, read about how we learn, then take another break, breathe, and really take your time. It’s very important.
Chris talks about how we also have the luxury of time spent with our children. We get to be more involved with what they’re doing and have a better connection with them on a daily basis. He asserts that many people forget that this is also education - bonding with your children. This was actually a benefit Chris hadn’t really thought about because he was focused more on the educational/learning side of things. We only have one life with our children, so having more time with your kids is a huge gift.
A challenge Jenna has found particularly difficult is shifting her habits. She says old habits die hard and she has struggled to eliminate specific language from her vocabulary or body language that no longer serves her. If she could go back and give herself advice, she would tell herself to take it one day at a time and to not be so hard on herself. She’d focus on changing one small thing at a time. She wishes she would have been easier on herself. Such a radical mindset shift takes time and as adults we’ve had years of conventional thoughts planted into our heads. She says she is happy with their progress, but there is still more work to do.
Chris says that actually ties in well to his last point. He says it was to treat children like adults and what he means by that is the children have been able to take ownership over their lives and their learning. It may feel really scary and confusing for them at the beginning (when they’re coming out of public schools) because they’ve grown accustomed to having everything planned out for them up till now. Once they take ownership of their lives, it’s easy to see that children aren’t mindless robots - they do in fact have their own dreams, desires, and wishes. They deserve the exact same rights as adults do. It’s arrogant of us to think we know better than they do about what is right for them. What’s better for the adult, is not always what’s best for the kid.
Jenna talks about how imperative it was, before offering the kids any new learning experiences or activities, to gain back their trust and respect. They have only known our recommendations for them to be attached to adult expectations, so in order for them to trust our offerings, they need to know we are presenting them without any strings attached - that we are just caring adults who truly have their best intentions at heart, not our own. Jenna also wanted to mention that she’s noticing a vast difference in unschooling experiences among families who have always unschooled vs. families who are leaving the public school system to unschool. Deschooling is not a perfect science and some kids require much longer than others. Jenna feels like their daughter, even after a year of unschooling, is still in the deschooling process. She still has a lot of schooled expectations of herself. Chris and Jenna ponder why that may be. A couple of ideas come to mind for them; their son may have more easily accepted this new lifestyle because he truly needed it. He was coming out of middle school and had a lot more stress and anxiety, which he was happy to get rid of. Their daughter on the other hand, only went to school half-day, so she may not have seen the change as a relief. An additional thing that may have lead their daughter to actually wanting to attend school again is the fact that her ideal learning environment couldn’t be offered to her last year due to the numerous lockdowns they experienced in the UK. Their daughter enjoys learning with friends, spending time with animals, and being in nature, all of which was severely limited during their first year of unschooling, sadly. Her impression of unschooling was that it is isolating, boring and unchallenging. Chris says they have the gift of time though - she can try out school and there is nothing to lose in giving her more options.
Jenna saw another unschooling blogger say she’d never let her kids go to school because she knows how damaging and oppressive it can be. While Jenna definitely agrees that schools can be damaging and oppressive, she wonders if not letting them attend school is a controlling behavior? She thinks that not allowing her to go to school would only lead their daughter to wanting it even more. Chris says that the worst thing we can do is put pressure on our kids if they go to school. Without the pressure though, your children can have a totally different experience even if they choose to attend school at some point. He wishes he had been reassured as a kid that if he didn’t learn something he was “supposed to learn in school” it wouldn’t have ruined his life. He had grandparents who were very controlling and demanding and inflicted fear on him that if he didn’t learn something or get good grades, he’d end up with a job he didn’t want. It’s our job to take the pressure off of them, not shaming them for bad grades, and helping them understand that the things they’re required to learn in school are not essential to their wellbeing.
Jenna feels like sending their daughter to school is hard, but she does think there are ways to do it with unschooling principles in mind. Firstly, you can be an advocate for your child when issues come up. Secondly, the school can be collaboratively decided on with the child. Third, and most important, the child has the ability at any time to leave school or choose a different environment to learn in. She says it would have been suppressive to insist her daughter stay home after requesting to go back to school.
Chris agrees and adds that we have to see her time in school the way we would see any of her other chosen activities, whether that be online classes, sports, or an apprenticeship. With an unschooling mindset, we can see the experience as just one piece of her overall desired learning experience and remind ourselves that the rest of her time is just as important and valuable. This is a completely different way of thinking about learning and education, and immediately makes this experience different than traditionally schooled children. We can’t demonize it. As unschooling parents, we can also talk with our kids about the challenges of a school system. Unschooling parents can also talk about how their kids can advocate for themselves.
One of Jenna’s favorite things about this year was seeing how their family relationships improved. When you treat one another with respect, conflicts are rare. It was a wonderful year of growth in that respect. The other big “aha” moment she had was in seeing how learning actually happens. As an educator she was always advised to teach children in a linear, continuous fashion where knowledge is built up over time. She says that’s not what she witnessed. It was bursts of enthusiasm and curiosity that she saw driving the learning. It was long and short bursts of interest and rabbit holes which either lead to more topics or came to an end. The skills you develop from each learning burst are then transferred to other learning endeavors. She talks about how educators always talk about the “summer slide” and how children forget what they’ve learned so we can’t let them fall behind. That’s not how learning works. People go all in when they learn about something they’re interested in. They get books, listen to podcasts, talk to other people with the same interest! It’s unstoppable.
Chris points out that so many people do this at the university level. They go all in and decide they want to learn about a specific topic, only to realize later that they don’t actually like it as much as they thought they would. By then, they’ve spent a lot of money and time on it so they feel trapped and just stick with it, even if it’s not what they want to do anymore. Unschoolers have the gift of time. They get to explore their interests all their lives and not just when the stakes are really high and they have to commit their entire lives to a specific career.
Chris says one of his favorite things about unschooling is seeing the projects and activities that the kids are proud to share with us. It used to be that they were proud of their good grades, but that only reflected how well they listened in class or how well they prepared for a test. The real achievements come from things they accomplish on their own and from their own desire to do so.
One last thing Jenna remembered about her unschooling experience that she’d like to share is that her kids have noticed the changes in Chris and Jenna’s parenting and even compliment them about it. They say they like how they can talk with us and we listen and that they like that we are their parents. It’s the most rewarding thing about unschooling.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Showhttps://www.self-directed.org/tp/deschooling/
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
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Guest CoHost
Emily Gregoire
IG @the.rainbow.room_
YouTube @theunschoolingdiary
Holistic Microschool Owner/Creator, Unschooling/Multicultural family of 6, lifelong self directed learner with a deep respect for babies and children as creative, curious, natural learners. Heavily influenced by Montessori philosophy. Member of 100 Roads a group of educators and edupreneurs.
Show NotesEmily got started in self directed learning years ago. In fact, she earned her degree in self directed general studies. When she had children, she realized she was going have to find a different way because her husband, who is a chef, had very abnormal working hours. She began reading and researching education styles that were more focused on holistic learning models. In Nevada, a program became available to individual students where they could receive $5,000 as a voucher to use for alternative education. Emily was really fired up and started forming coalitions and began informing people about this option, but the program sadly fell through. But the fire was lit, and Emily had met so many other like-minded families throughout the process that they decided to all work together. Her daughters became involved with what was Wildflowers Learning Studio from there. Sadly the teacher leading the learning center passed away from cancer, so Emily decided to carry on the torch. During Covid, she opened the Rainbow Room where she had 10 students in the mornings and 10 students in the afternoon.
Jenna asks if it was difficult to find students for Emily’s micro school? Emily says it was interesting because the people who showed interest originally weren’t always the ones who actually registered. She found the best way to recruit students was through local mom groups who were looking for a learning model that could extend from their current nurture-based parenting methods. For these families, the concept doesn’t seem so wild because they’ve already done the research and have experience pushing up against the status quo. She doesn’t want to educate or sell parents on the idea, she wants to be the solution. She says she built the solution she was looking for for her own daughters.
Jenna asks Emily to tell us about her children. Emily says she has 4 girls, Juliettta (9), Ophelia (7), Louie (5), and Lucianna (2). She grew up with 5 siblings and jokes that if it’s not chaos, it’s not parenting. She says her path was like collecting nuts through the forest. She read Free to Learn, which then lead to her reading another, and then another book. In the Rainbow Room, Emily tries to create a robust and healthy environment where you can’t help but learn. Jenna adds that being able to cater the environment to the students is what makes microschools really unique.
Jenna asks Emily to share her first takeaway from the episode with Mara Linaberger. Emily says it was great hearing Mara’s experiences and learning about all the different microschools that are out there. Her favorite part of the episode was when Mara said that her vision for microschools is to create something where we can do all the best practices for students, all of the time. Emily highlights that anyone working with kids are most likely trying to do what’s best for their students all of the time, but because of all the demands and overload on teachers, it’s just like too little butter spread over too much bread. With microschools, you can better define what is working and what isn’t. She advises microschool leaders to under commit and over perform. She started out with a really small morning slot and let the school evolve over time into what it is today. She felt like that was a good way for her to keep true to her original concept for the microschool. Jenna says it’s much easier for a microschool to commit to and stay true to a vision because of the small number of students. That is the impossible dream that schools promise, but they can’t serve each student due to their size and the learning environment created with such a large population of kids. Emily kind of cautions microschool owners to really be clear on their vision and stick to it, because the fear of not having enough students or appeasing others could easily set things in a direction you didn’t intend on. When she meets with a family, Emily looks for that spark. It should feel like a perfect fit, she says she’s very heart-centered in the way works with the families interested in the Rainbow Room for their child. She was happy to see the Rainbow Room evolve to include 10 multilingual/multicultural families out of the 20 registered.
Jenna says that one of her takeaways from the episode was that she sees microschools filling a need for kids like hers, who are searching for a consistent, stable and reliable community which they can be a part of regularly. Jenna adds that she thinks this is where microschools could be a wonderful asset to unschooling/homeschooling families. She asks Emily if she has had a lot of homeschooling or unschooling families reaching out to her for something like that? Emily says that that’s exactly what she experienced because when she tried to collaborate with families in co-op-style format, she had a lot of people excited at the beginning but then cancelling at the last minute or their enthusiasm faded. It was frustrating for her kids because they were looking forward to seeing other kids or learning something. She discovered that families were happy to pay for something reliable, which meant that Emily could prepare things for students and offer this social time for her kids without wondering if people were going to show up. And yes, to answer Jenna’s question, the families that are enrolled at The Rainbow Room are homeschooling/unschooling families who have signed a waiver in the state of Nevada stating that they are solely responsible for their child’s education. Emily adds that she also likes how she can incorporate structure but with freedom. They have certain routines each day, but they aren’t bound by the clock. Things can start and end with the natural flow of the kids’ interest or lack thereof. It’s a balancing act.
Jenna had a flashback from her teaching days as Emily described the ebb and flow of their day in the Rainbow Room. She says it was often the case that she had to interrupt the kids during an activity because of the strict scheduling and alternatively, if the kids weren’t really interested in a certain activity, she had a difficult time finding a quick substitute activity to fill in the gap. Therefore, she experienced a great deal of wasted time. She sees how microschools and SDE learning centers have the huge advantage of flexibility and individualized planning.
Emily shares how excited she gets when a question leads to another question and she can quickly pull up a YouTube video, grab a book or another resource and see where the learning goes.Emily says she likes to focus on the environment in the classroom first and foremost. That’s where most of her planning time goes. It’s funny how some projects she thinks the kids might really like are total flops, while other little classroom materials can lead to long investigations and self-initiated experiments.
Emily shares how her insecurities crept up at the beginning around having “evidence of learning” for the parents to see. She wondered what she was going to show them. But then she realized that was part of her deschooling process and she had already had extensive conversations with these parents about their expectations, so it was a fear that wasn’t in line with the values of The Rainbow Room. She said it was very important to know that her and the parents were on the same page and why they were sending their kids to her microschool. She believes it is all about open communication with parents and clearly defining the expectations. Jenna says that on the flip side, it’s important for families looking into microschools to ask questions and make sure it is the right fit for their family and that it aligns with the SDE principles.
Emily agrees and says that she’d love to see a space where there are multiple options for kids housed under one institution. One real example of this model exists in Colorado. They’ve taken an abandoned mall and converted it into a community college where people can attend sewing workshops and stem projects, or meet up to eat lunch in the food court. Her dream is to see a community space where many microschools come together and serve a greater community of people. Another example she refers to is Workspace Education.
Jenna says that idea sounds nice for two reasons; first, the students would be immersed in a diverse group of people and would be able to view themselves as valuable members of a greater society. It also eliminates some ot the potential for groupthink within a really small microschool ecosystem. And secondly, it allows students the option to find a smaller community within that larger community space that works best with their learning style and goals. An example she shares is of how her son is thriving with this online self directed school he attends, while her daughter craves a space where she is known and she knows the kids in her classes well.
Emily notes that she feels the same about craving a space that could work for families collectively. She dreams of a facility where we could cross-pollinate ideas and not isolate ourselves with our small groups of kids. She asks, can we not create these family, or rather human spaces, where people can work and learn and jive together - here we can socialize and play? She says she hopes that's the future.
Jenna says she was just talking with a potential upcoming guest for the podcast about how we can make SDE accessible to anyone. Her very off-the-cuff idea was to make this look more like a community center. Jenna adds that it would be great to see a buzzing community of classes, workshops, etc offered by volunteers and paid employees or apprentices, and where each class is seen as vital to the wellbeing of humans as any other. So yoga is just as important as calculus and meditation is considered equal in value to reading. Jenna sort of jokes that perhaps this is a utopian dream, but she hopes it’s not. She hopes this vision becomes a reality.
One of the things Emily mentioned with homeschool meetups is that there is a lack of reliability in them sometimes, which can be disappointing for kids. Jenna had a similar experience because her Wednesday meetup varied each week in terms of who could come, which meant that she couldn’t guarantee that her daughter was able to see her friends on a weekly basis. This did not work for her and oftentimes left her daughter quite sad. It really turned her daughter off from meetups and made it less inviting. Jenna says there’s flaws in that method, and sees the value in a more regular, reliable meetup like a microschool or SDE learning center.
Emily says that in the workspace education group she mentioned earlier, which was inspired by her mentor Cath Phrase, had the idea that families would sign up together for a co-learning space and everyone would contribute. Within that same space, they provided the option for parents that worked to drop off their kids and have them attend an Acton Academy. She wishes there were more spaces which were open to that sort of thing.
Jenna says that microschools and SDE learning centers could provide parents with a bridge to unschooling as they continue to deschool. She feels like perhaps part of the reason parents are scared to jump in feet first is because they have so much pressure to be and do all the things for their children. Jenna asks if there are any last takeaways that Emily would like to share from the episode. Emily says that she likes Maras model and would be happy to see more people opening microschools. She adds though, that there is more work needed with the legal side of things. She says it would be great if there was a plug and play language that could be used in every state to explain exactly what microschools are and require. The term “microschools” seems to be simple for people to understand, so it’s a good word to use to describe them. We just need some cohesive language about what they are and how they function so people can run them legitimately across all 50 states.
Jenna says it’s what Mara was saying too, it’s very complicated because each state has varying laws about homeschooling and microschools. Jenna shares how she heard about Canada’s government providing homeschooling families with money to buy resources and such, but unfortunately by the time politicians were through with it, the stipulations on how the money could be spent made it impossible to use on resources that mattered to unschoolers. For example, families could buy textbooks which aren’t exactly applicable to unschooling principles. So yeah, we have to be careful when we vote for new laws that we know what it actually means.
Emily says that’s a really good point. We even have to protect our rights as homeschoolers. Who knows where it will all go from here. Jenna says she hates to leave on a negative note, but we can’t ignore the fact that there’s still work to be done and there are issues and we do have to fight for this. We need to be involved in our local politics and make sure laws are passed that only further the vision we have for our children.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowEpisode 002 Rogue Learner Podcast - An Educator’s Transition Away from Traditional Schooling
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
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Guest
Mara Linaberger
Founder & COO, Microschool Builders, LLC Dr. Mara Linaberger believes that each of us has chosen to be here at this moment in time for a specific reason—that we are each on a mission that we choose for ourselves. And that figuring out what we love, what we’re good at, and how we can be of service is the engine we need to fuel a lifetime of joyful learning. Mara also believes that school often slows down or stifles that excitement for students. So she is on a mission to create a global network of 100 microschools in the next 20 years—to harness education toward helping amazing children to develop their highest potentials while making learning fun again! Mara is a life-long educator, author, technologist, artist, ballroom dancer, and musician, having spent 25 years in service as a public school educator, teacher trainer, and administrator. Completing a doctorate in Instructional Technology, she went on to earn a Superintendent’s Letter of Eligibility in Pennsylvania. Launching Mindful Technology Consultants in 2013, she continues to train teachers at the masters level on the use of digital portfolios as alternative assessments and on bringing mindfulness practices into the classroom. Mara is the international two-time best selling author of HELP! My Child Hates School and The Micro-School Builder’s Handbook. Mara currently lives in Harmony, PA, with her husband Michael while she travels far and wide, directly supporting clients in her global Microschool Builders programs.
https://www.facebook.com/mara.linaberger
https://www.instagram.com/microschool_builders/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzqdwPI1kFylYq19kQ1F18g
https://twitter.com/mlinaberger
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maralinaberger/
Show NotesJenna says that she thinks many listeners of the Rogue Learner podcast are interested in knowing more about alternative and progressive education models, but who aren’t able to homeschool, may be interested in looking into microschools. She asks Mara to give an overview of microschools for the audience. Mara says that many people would characterize it differently but she sees it as the reinvention of the one-room schoolhouse. It’s usually a parent or educator who decides they want to work with a small group of students in a community. In most cases, micro schools have multi-age groupings, lots of self direction on the part from the students, more time outdoors, more time for field trips and hands-on projects. You can picture it as a one-room schoolhouse with technology, the ability to communicate with others and collaborate beyond our communities, and the ability to travel. They are really a great alternative for many kids. Jenna says it seems like a good alternative for people who want to build something different for students that is easier than creating a school which can accommodate up to 600 students.
Mara mentions that the word micro school was coined in 2010, but is not a new idea. She says Montessori, Reggio Emilo, Waldorf, and Sudbury are all labeled ‘alternative education’, but she thinks that word is loaded because they can be seen as schools which parents send their kids to when they’re getting into trouble or they just don’t fit in. She says that micro schools do accommodate those kids, of course, but there are plenty of other people who are looking for smaller, more personalized, more community-based, gentler, kinder, slower micro schools.
Mara says she’s seeing an influx of parents who are choosing micro schools with kids who are highly sensitive, diagnosed with adhd, gifted, kids with learning deficits or challenges. In the smaller learning environment, she says it’s a lot easier to meet the needs of each individual child as opposed to the public schools which sometimes serve hundreds of students.
Jenna points out that the one thing schools can provide is a sense of community, however in public schools the number of students is often so large that it’s impossible to feel connected and valued as an individual. She says that’s where micro schools can fill a need, the need for community. It would provide a space where you can focus on the wellbeing of the child, not just tests.
On the topic of testing and assessment, Mara says that it’s not used to measure the value of a child first and foremost, but unfortunately children adopt this type of thinking. They think an A means your good and a C means your bad. What an A means, is that you mastered the content and a C means you haven’t mastered the content and it should be used as a guidepoint for the teacher. It lets the teacher know whether or not the way they taught the content was good for the student. With micro schools, there is less emphasis on assessment because the facilitator/guide/mentor is with the child all day everyday in most instances and can observe the progress of the child without formal assessment. They can organically assess whether the child is attaining knowledge. In many micro schools, children will show what they’ve learned by putting on a show for the community, keeping portfolios, or videos. There are so many ways for kids to demonstrate what they know, tests are just one of them. Unfortunately for many kids now, tests create a personal sense of worth and value which is not what they’re intended to do.
Jenna says she agrees and points out that with unschoolers and homeschoolers, we are organically observing our children’s growth over time. It’s easy to see how they’ve acquired new vocabulary or are reading at a higher level. If proof is necessary for some reason, it’s easy to acquire it without formal assessments.
Mara says that some of the micro schools she works with are required to give formal, standardized assessments because of the state they live in, however the way that they approach it is as a celebration of how far the students have come. She says that in most cases children grow even further than what they would be expected to in a public school after a year, so the kids feel some sort of validation from their approach to learning.
Jenna says bureaucracy is there and sometimes there are gatekeepers. She says she likes how Mara flips it around, and uses tests as a celebration of all you’ve learned rather than a valuation of the child’s worth. It’s not used to measure a child up to anyone else’s standards, it’s more of a look at how far the child has come.
Jenna asks how Mara got involved with micro schools. Mara says that eight years ago she was working as the director of staff development, technology integration, new teacher induction, and data and assessment for a local school district. She thought that by moving up into administration, she’d be able to help change education and make it a sainer place for students and educators. At the end of her first year, a new superintendent was coming in and the budget was not balanced and so Mara’s position was eliminated. It was the first time she realized that she was dispensable. She looked for employment elsewhere, but came to the realization that she couldn’t reenter the public school system. She set up a consulting business and did some teaching online, but she also began to investigate the system of education because she was curious about how she could have been part of something that didn’t really value the skill sets she brought and was so easily cast aside. She started questioning what she could do with all of her experience now and knowing that education really wasn’t designed to create autonomous, happy, well-adjusted learners. It’s designed to create workers who can follow the directions they are given, knowing that that’s not really working for kids anymore and won’t work for us in the future because of how rapidly our planet is changing and requires a very different kind of ‘worker’.’ It requires someone who can think autonomously, who can be creative, and come up with solutions for problems.
Mara actually had dreams about one-room schoolhouses and she got curious about that. So she investigated that further and discovered they were still a thing. She read some books written by people who were running them. She went to visit one of them off the coast of Maine and actually got hired to open the school for three students. She stayed for three months before resigning due to the extreme isolation the island had from the mainland. While there however, Mara got to experience how a community of well-intentioned citizens could run a school even with a limited budget. She then wrote a book about making better school choices for your kids, and that led to her writing about how people could go about opening their own school. That book has grown into a full-blown business. Mara now has seven clients who have opened micro schools, which are networked together. She has six new clients who will be opening schools this fall. Mara says her vision, for the work that she’s doing, is to help people who want to get a small school open as a viable business that will pay the owner well and offer real value back to the community of learners and the community in general. Her hope is that all of the owners can work together and collaborate, so the kids are getting a global experience while at the same time still being grounded in their community.
Jenna says she loves the vision and can see how these schools will be popping up everywhere because she sees a need for them, especially for the teen population. In her own experience, she’s found that her kids are yearning for a place to meet up with a constant community of people on a day to day basis. Jenna says she sees how this could really work together with home education to create a real turning point for education.
Mara says she actually has a micro school owner who road-schools with her students. The students choose a location they’d like to go as a culminating activity for the learning. This last Spring they went to Mexico after studying the culture. She says what micro schools can offer road schoolers, homeschoolers, and world schoolers is a place where kids can drop in and feel like part of a community whether it’s for a few weeks or a year. Microschools are really powerful for families who are still a bit fearful to jump in alone or who are not able to do it themselves and are willing to pay someone else to offer that sort of experience to their child.
Jenna asks what it is like to open a micro school and what type of person does Mara look for in her clients. Mara says she prefers to work with educators or parents who are very familiar with self-directed learning. She has a nine-step process for opening a school. The first step is identifying the market - looking for which types of schools are offered in their community, what they do well, what they don’t do well, and most importantly what’s missing that kids want and need. Then she helps the owner identify who their ideal students and families are. Second step is mapping out the business. This requires figuring out the legal entity to select and discovering the school codes for their area. Some states will allow schools to open up as a private school, while others operate as a learning resource center for homeschoolers or as tutoring centers. The third step is marketing. Mara stresses that many people might get into this thinking that finding a space and mapping out the learning day is the place to start, but because it’s a business it’s really important to make sure there’s a buyer for your product, just like any other business would do. Jenna laughs and adds that she herself learned that the hard way as a long-time entrepreneur.
Mara says that as a micro school owner, you’re essentially providing an alternative for kids to their public or private school, so you really want to build something that is exceptional. Microschools give us this rare opportunity to do things we know are best for children, to use all of the best practices, all of the time and not to just pay lip service to them. The single best thing you can do when you’re thinking about building a micro school is to clearly identify who that ideal student is. She even tells her clients to draw a picture of that kid, or if it’s a real kid, take a picture of that kid, and paste it on your wall. If it’s a real kid, talk with them and let them describe to you their ideal “school”.
Jenna asks how the schools look on a day to day basis in terms of curriculum and facilitators. Mara says there’s a really broad range. She says there’s a number of microschools embracing the non-compulsory, democratic model like Sudbury schools, but there are also some who use curriculum in a light way. She has some school owners who use an online math and reading curriculum for the core foundational skills, but there are also those who let the kids master those skills organically too. They create lessons where and when they’re needed based on the needs of the students. The way Mara likes to work with micro school owners is to ensure the business is grounded and viable, the day to day and curriculum is really up to the owners and the needs of the community and students. Most of the owners look at offering a whole-person approach, addressing the mind, body and spirit. They don’t simply focus on academics. There’s an emphasis on spending time outdoors, doing physical activities, learning how to eat well, traveling, student leadership, conflict resolution, and sometimes religion (depending on the school). Jenna adds that she feels like most educators of today, including her, would like education to be geared toward the wellbeing of the whole child, not just their academic “success”.
Mara says that within her circle of people in the education system, she sees a block in people’s thinking, where they just can’t get past the scope and sequence of what a child must learn in a year’s time. She doesn’t get why people think there is only one way for kids to be taught or one type of learning that they all should have access to. Mara mentions how we are failing to prepare kids in public schools to question things and then later when they come upon a piece of news, they aren’t able to look into the source and evaluate what story is being told here. Jenna adds that schools offer no way for students to actually participate in the world and scrutinize it because it’s such a controlled environment.
Mara talks about how kids figure out what they have to do to get A’s and get their work done so they can feel good about themselves and so that their parents don’t hassle them. They go through the motions and they are not learning to think critically, they’re not learning how to have civil discourse, and how to vet sources and resources. She explains how microschools offer students the time and flexibility to talk about important world events as they come up. Jenna adds that there’s also no bell, so students can talk for as long as they deem necessary. Although microschools do have a general rhythm to their day, they all vary. For example, one of the microschool owners has a one hour window of time where the kids can arrive at school. The first hour they spend doing service work, like repairing things in the school or caring for the school’s animals. After that, they have tea and time for journaling. It’s a very gentle start to the day. This, as opposed to entering the room and starting a math lesson.
Jenna asks how Mara supports the microschool owners once they’re up and running and they have students. She says she offers two levels of service; one where she helps the business owner get their ideas on paper and the other is a membership group called the collective. They meet weekly, they get technical support in business, marketing, HR, and legal counsel. They are planning to meet once a year in person and find ways for kids to travel to one another's schools. The owners share resources with each other as well. The kids from all schools also meet via Zoom once a week too.
Jenna asks Mara if she has a favorite microschool that has been built under the microschool builders umbrella. Mara says she doesn’t have a favorite, but she can share some of her favorite things about some of the microschools so far. One of them does weekly skateboarding and surfing in Southern Florida. They are location independent, so students do all of their academic work online, independently and then participate in the in-person meetups too. They go on field trips together regularly - kayaking and farm plots are just a couple of examples. She has clients with schools that focus on the Sloyd principles and a couple which incorporate the outdoors into most of what they do. So, it varies a lot.
Jenna asks if Mara sees microschools gaining popularity worldwide or if it’s a US phenomenon. She says yes, it’s absolutely going up. There are other organizations doing similar work - helping people create microschools in their communities. They have a different focus. Acton Academy is one of them which began in Texas and has over 200 schools all over the globe. She says their ideal client would be a couple of parents who want to build a school where their kids can attend. She says she is getting calls from Australia, Europe and South America. It’s definitely a worldwide trend - people are craving small schools.
Mara mentions Clubhouse being a place where she’s met microschool owners. Jenna adds that she can’t seem to get into Clubhouse. It takes up so much time and feels like a huge time suck. Mara agrees, it takes a lot of discipline, but she acknowledges how wonderful it can be as a resource and a place to spread your message about self-directed education and create an awareness about microschools. Mara says one of her personal challenges is to not just talk about the future of education, but to take action.
Mara sincerely hopes that with the growing number of microschools up and running, the public education system might stop what they’re doing and decide that smaller, more personalized education, based in the community might actually benefit kids more.
Mara talks about how she looks for clients who already understand the student autonomy piece, because the rest (the entrepreneur skill set) can be learned. Jenna laughs about how Mara’s role is precisely what self-directed learning promotes. Mara says, that’s exactly what she wants to happen is for the owners to do the same thing she’s doing with them for their students - she plays into their strengths and facilitates their passions. Mara says her work is so rewarding. She never thought she’d be using her school running skills she acquired from the school district to help individuals build their own schools.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowMicroschool Builders
Wintergatan on YouTube
Tasting History on YouTube
How to Make Everything on YouTube
Breathe: A Vision & Framework for Human-Centered Learning Environments by Dr. Bernard Bull
The Cult of Smart: How Our Broken Education System Perpetuates Social Injustice by Fredrik deBoer
Sloyd Principles
Acton Academy
Ways to ConnectJoin me on the Show!
Leave a voicemail!
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Guest Co-Host
Jessica McGough
Hi All! I am a nature enthusiast and aspiring adventurer and was born and raised in Sonoma County, California. I attended college in northern California and then spent five months in Massachusetts where I participated in an AmeriCorps/Student Conservation Association program to work on environmental education and complete trail work projects in 2010. I taught at the preschool level as a college student, which is where my passion for working with children was ignited. I possess my California Multiple Subject Teaching Credential and taught kindergarten for three years, third grade for one year, and have also substitute taught in all of the elementary grades.
My identical twin daughters were born in 2016 prematurely at 30 weeks gestation, and I have greatly enjoyed focusing my energy on them over the last handful of years. Taking a step back from teaching in the traditional school setting and having children of my own has been an enlightening process. In this phase of life, my thoughts and perspectives on education have shifted immensely. This transformation has led me to the exciting, innovative, and inspiring world of self-directed learning and unschooling.
Thankfully, I have found my new place in education as a facilitator for Galileo, the amazing online self-directed global school. I am also an aspiring children's book author and hope to release my first book in the coming months. My family hopes to adopt a more fluid and adventurous lifestyle in the near future consisting of new and exciting places and experiences.
Instagram @jessicadmcgough
Clubhouse @jessicadmcgough
Show NotesJessica was an educator for several years, working with children in preschool thru elementary school. After having her twin girls, her perspective on education changed dramatically and she began researching and reading more about alternative education. She read ‘Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom’ by Kerry McDonald, Teach Your Own by John Holt and Pat Ferenga, and The Call of the Wild and Free by Ainsley Arment. She’s spent years immersing herself in alternative and self-directed education. She and her husband have chosen an alternative education path for their daughters when they become school-aged. She is so happy to have found an independent-study charter school in California where they live and they will be trying that out for the first year of school for their daughters. She has been so excited to find a job for herself as a facilitator at Galileo, a self-directed online global school. ($100 off your first month’s tuition if you mention Rogue Learner)
Jenna asks Jessica if there was a specific moment in her teaching career where she felt like something wasn’t working or she didn’t agree with the way things were done in the conventional school system? Jessica said she started out her teaching career teaching kindergarten. She was on a team of seven kindergarten teachers and found it difficult to implement some of her own ideas in the classroom because the more experienced teachers weren’t willing to try new things. They were stuck in their ways and not open to change. She found that difficult. She also said there were times when kids were labeled “difficult” or “low performing” based on the fact that they couldn’t sit at their desk for hours or didn’t know their ABC’s. Parents questioned her about that, and Jessica didn’t have a good answer for the parents. She was just doing what she was directed to do. She had a student in kindergarten who could already read, but couldn’t sit still. A third grade student she once had was an avid reader and would read his book during instruction. Jessica wanted to let him read his book, but felt as a public school teacher her job was to make sure he paid attention during her lessons, otherwise he’d miss something important. After she had her twins, she realized she couldn’t return to work in a traditional school setting. She didn’t want her own girls to be a part of the system, so she couldn’t imagine teaching in it herself. She thought about sending her girls to alternative schools like Montessori or Waldorf, but again, that wouldn’t give her kids the opportunity to really decide for themselves which learning style best suits them.
Jenna adds that she and her kids toured several schools as well; Montessori, Waldorf, and a Free School in Frankfurt. She says there seems to be an evolution that occurs in parents and educators where they realize kids don’t need them in order to learn. Some take a more gradual approach toward self directed education, while others dive right in from the very beginning. Jenna adds that having your own kids really helps you to see that kids are learning all the time and are naturally curious.
For Jessica, one of her “aha” moments was while listening to episode 11 and 12 of the podcast where Naomi Fisher talked about how even Waldorf or Forest Schools can offer a great alternative for kids who enjoy that style of learning, but again, it has its limitations because it doesn’t suit all learners. The best thing we can do is find the environment which is best suited for the individual needs of each child.
Jenna adds that as parents we need to be open to offering all the educational possibilities to our kids and let them decide for themselves which educational experiences are best for them. Whether that be through a Waldorf education or homeschooling, it’s our kids' journey not ours. We need to trust them to make the right decision for themselves and learn to adapt to them as their needs change. Holding back options from our kids is contradictory to an unschooling mindset because it’s a form of control. Jenna’s daughter decided to go back to school because she missed structure, working with classmates and having a set curriculum. She felt out of control when all the decisions fell on her shoulders. It was just too much.
Jenna can relate to her daughter’s needs for structure. Jenna says that when she went into entrepreneurship, she realized it wasn’t the best working environment for her. It requires a lot of self-determination, motivation, and keeping to a self-inflicted schedule. This is hard for her. If she was able to do her job as an employee, she thinks she’d probably prefer it because she thrives in environments where the schedule is set, her goals are clearly stated, and she’s surrounded by inspiring colleagues. Just as adults are given the chance to try varying work environments, children need the same freedom to explore educational environments and see which ones work for them.
Jessica says she thinks it’s so great that Jenna is giving her daughter the chance to discover what’s best for her. Jenna adds that she had the example laid out before her by her mother, who always let her make her own choices about school and trusted her as a teen. It was just the norm in her house growing up.
Jenna asks Jessica to share her first takeaway from the episode with Heidi Dusek, episode 020. Jessica’s first takeaway was how she related to Heidi’s comment about becoming a mom and feeling the pressure to decide between motherhood and adventure. We’re told in our society that we should get adventuring out of our system before we have kids, but Jessica thinks you can keep adventure in your life throughout parenthood. It goes in phases. Sometimes adventure just looks like going out to eat with your baby in their carseat. She shares how once her twin girls were one year old, they took a trip to Hawaii and it was tough, but the memories of that trip are still fun and she’s still glad they went.
Jenna talks about Heidi’s definition of adventure being any new experience or anything that feels a bit like a risk or that you could fail at it. Based on that definition, Jenna’s very first adventure as a mom was an outing to Walgreens with her son. It felt really risky at the time and she was swelling with pride when she got home.
Jenna’s first takeaway was about creating an environment where the kids can thrive. Jenna tries to offer up opportunities (without expectations) that lets the kids do what they will with it.
Jessica mentions her next takeaway was when Heidi mentioned how the community is a resource for our kids and provides our kids with meaningful social interactions. She also likes how Heidi mentioned the studies showing why some families don’t adventure together; in that study, parents revealed that they are afraid of not having the answers to their kids’s questions and refrain from adventuring with their kids because of it. Jessica notes how that’s similar to parents thinking they can’t homeschool because they lack the knowledge to teach their kids everything they may want to know. Jenna talks about how we need to rely on experts in our community to fill in the gaps where we aren’t able to instruct our kids, or learn it together. New experiences are not only useful to kids, but they can serve as valuable learning opportunities for the entire family.
Jenna talks about how being a parent of an 11 and 13 year old, she has to find ways to create shared experiences with her kids where everyone is a willing participant and that gets harder as kids get older. At least, that’s been her experience. They all have different interests and ways they like to spend their time. A shared adventure for her, may look like trying to play Fortnite with her son or doing a makeover with her daughter. Sometimes a fun shared experience comes from the parent taking risks or being uncomfortable, not the children.
Jessica says how she liked in the last episode how Heidi and Jenna talked about spending smaller chunks of time together that are meaningful as opposed to setting a specific amount of time to hang out together. She thought Heidi’s comment about quitting an activity while everyone is still having fun was a really valuable tip and a great reminder to parents to be flexible and adjust your expectations.
Jenna says there’s a real balance we need to strike because we know our kids, and that’s what makes each or our experiences unique. Sometimes our kids are not in a good mood, or aren’t dressed well for the weather, and it’s okay to end the trip early. But alternatively, we also know when our kids could benefit from a gentle nudge to keep going. Jenna shares a couple examples of when her kids have needed an early finish and times when everyone was having a good time despite the adventure taking way longer than anticipated.
Jenna mentions how Heidi talked about her experience with lockdown sort of gave her a peek into the world of homeschooling and provided her with the time to get to know her kids better. Jenna wonders how many families had a similar experience, because lockdown definitely played a role in kick starting the self-directed learning journey for her own family. Jessica says she has talked with so many families who found the system inflexible and learned that there are alternative methods to educate their children than through conventional schools, so she knows Jenna and Heidi are not alone. A lot of families saw their kids deep dive into hobbies and interests that they otherwise didn’t have time for. Families got a chance to get to know one another better.
Jenna says that she was frustrated when people argued that school is necessary for kids to have social lives, because school does NOT have to be the sole provider of social interaction. Jessica said her experience teaching actually illustrated how socialization in schools is oftentimes a negative experience. For example, she had a 3rd grade girl bullied for her weight on the playground. There are so many ways for kids to socialize, and homeschooling provides socialization across age groups and backgrounds, which research shows is actually better for kids. Jenna says she likes that homeschooling provides kids with the option to choose who they spend their time with, as opposed to being subjected to forced socialization where it can actually be detrimental to their wellbeing. (ie; bullying, criticism, austrosizing) Jessica thinks many adults can’t recall what type of socialization went on in schools and are slightly out of touch since they aren’t working in schools. Most of the time, teachers are actually discouraging socialization in the classroom because they have a curriculum to get through. Or, socialization is forced and controlled. Many times, there are negative consequences for students when they do want to socialize in class.
Jenna liked Heidi’s question for her kids; “what do you want this experience to look like?” Jessica also mentions how she liked the idea of creating “to go” bags or bins so you can just get up and go. She also thinks it’s important though, even with all that forethought and planning, to keep some level of spontaneity in your life. She mentions the book “Memory Making Mom” by Jessica Smartt as a great inspirational book for adventure, tradition, and spontaneity. As a planner, Jessica needs reminders to be spontaneous and flexible at times, so she found the book very helpful.
Jenna feels like her family doesn’t have any traditions to speak of. They change things up every single year, and she says as a multicultural family that’s moved to three different countries, she finds it difficult to repeat traditions year after year. It’s something she wants to work on because she does think they’re important. Jessica feels like simple adventures can become amazing traditions, and a bit unconventional. You have to see what comes up naturally for your family and not put pressure on yourself to do it every single year. Jenna laughs about how she doesn’t think her family has any traditions, but she’ll let the audience know if she thinks of one.
Jessica liked the simplicity of the RV trip Heidi and her family went on. Jessica’s family has recently downsized and they live very simply, so that part of the interview really resonated with her. Jenna agrees, she says the more stuff you have, the more stuff you have to take care of. Since her family has moved so many times, they have to keep their possessions to a minimum too.
The episode with Heidi was recorded a while ago, and Jenna wants to mention how Heidi recently went on a trip to Hawaii with her family of five for just $500.
You can connect with Jessica on Instagram @jessicamcgough. Jessica also wants to let the audience know about InspirEd, a global online event hosted by Galileo Online School. The event will be for parents and educators looking toward alternative and forward-thinking educational models, like self-directed learning. Some of the guest speakers for the event will be Kerry McDonald, Naomi Fisher, Peter Gray, Pat Farenga, and Michael Saylor. Go here for more info about that event and to register for the inspirEd global summit. (Register before July 12th and it’s free!)
You can listen to the interviews from the global homeschooling summit 2020 hosted by Galileo here.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show‘Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom’ by Kerry McDonald
Teach Your Own by John Holt and Pat Ferenga
The Call of the Wild and Free by Ainsley Arment
Galileo, a self-directed online global school ($100 off your first month’s tuition if you mention Rogue Learner)
“Memory Making Mom” by Jessica Smart
Ordinary Sherpa - travel hacking with a family
InspirEd, a global online event
Episode 11 and 12 with Naomi Fisher
Global Homeschooling Summit 2020
Ways to ConnectJoin me on the Show!
Leave a Voicemail!
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Guest
Heidi Dusek
A catalyst, healthy disruptor and unshakeable optimist, Heidi’s passion lies in challenging the status quo, driving change and delivering experiences. Known as a translator between sectors whose background transcends education, health, nonprofits, university, business, philanthropy, design and podcasting. While stacking talents and lived experiences is her superpower, she continually embraces each role with a lens of empathy, trust and curiosity as critical threads embedded in the fabric of designing an authentic and memorable life.
Today she and her husband live in Wisconsin with 3 children and spend a considerable amount of time outdoors, remodeling their third generation farm house, mastering un-tourism, and creating connections with people around the world. Her podcast Ordinary Sherpa inspires families to connect through simple adventures.
Ordinary Sherpa podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ordinary-sherpa-family-adventure-coaching-and-design/id1539255067
website/subscribe to email newsletter: https://ordinarysherpa.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ordinarysherpa/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ordinarysherpa/
Show NotesHeidi grew up on a farm with a large family. She remembers meeting and greeting people often and spent the majority of her time outside. When she became a mom, she felt the need to choose between adventure, career, or motherhood and decided that would not be her story.
Heidi defines adventure as anything that creates a new experience and something that feels like a risk. (As in you may try and fail) She thinks it’s important for families to adventure together because it’s healthy physically and mentally and helps build resiliency, adversity and not let fear dictate your decision-making. Adventure is the most novel way for us to experience all of those benefits while having fun and connect.
Jenna asks Heidi for practical and easy ways families can incorporate adventure into their lives, particularly right now during the pandemic. Heidi says it starts with intentionality - having a list of possible things the family can do when there is spare time, so they can refer back to it when boredom strikes. An example she gave is that her family decided to have a whole weekend around the theme; apples. Her family came up with lots of ideas about how to incorporate apples into their weekend, like cooking with apples, shooting apples with a bow, and dunking for apples. She doesn’t always do a lot of planning, so on unplanned weekends she refers to the list.
It’s also helped her family explore local attractions. She found many great places just in her area within 20-50 miles.
Jenna asked if Heidi’s family keeps bags of essentials prepared and ready to go? Heidi says they definitely do. They started out with a beach bag and added a hiking bag and camping bin to the “ready to go in under 10 minutes’ essentials. They also have a weekender checklist. Jenna wonders, is part of the success of adventure, being prepared? Heidi says yes and no. There’s room for both.
Jenna shares how her and her husband are never really fully prepared when they go on outings, yet they make it work and ultimately learn a lesson every single time they have an adventure. That’s one of the best things about adventuring, is the lessons learned along the way. Heidi shares a story of when her and her husband assumed that all their kids had all put shoes on when they left to go camping, but one of her kids hadn’t. Luckily they had a pair of crocs in the car (in the aforementioned beach bag). The unpredictability of adventure is what makes it fun. Jenna shares how her family went on a trip to Tenerife with friends and although she had checked the weather, it was a weather station at the top of the volcano on the island. Jenna had packed clothing for temperatures in the 50’s but it turned out to be really warm there. She had to buy some tank tops and she laughs about that now.
Jenna asks, how do you include your kids in the adventure planning? First off, Heidi prefaces her suggestions with the fact that she doesn’t feel like an expert, she only shares what has worked for her family. You all know your kids best and can better determine their strengths and weaknesses. She looks at fare sales, and then gives her kids a few options. Each of her kids have different interests and goals for adventuring. She asks them, “What excites you about these places?” and “What do you want this experience to look like?” Heidi adds that her role in adventuring with her kids is to provide the environment where they can thrive, not necessarily plan out each detail of the process. Jenna adds that the people in those environments provide our kids with more knowledge and insight that we (as in just the parents) can offer.
Asking locals for directions or recommendations is a great way for kids to learn communication skills and become more comfortable talking with people of all ages, cultures, etc. Engaging with local communities is part of the learning process. It also provides children with an opportunity to interact with strangers safely.
Jenna asks, do you ever split up to accommodate everyone’s needs and interests? Heidi says, “yes!” She points out that it’s actually great sometimes for the kids to separate because they had a nice break from each other. Jenna adds that her family has a lot to talk about when they do different things. Heidi says sometimes her kids get FOMO after splitting up and hearing what the others got to do, but it’s a great moment for them to reflect on their choices. Jenna thinks it’s also a great opportunity to change plans for the next few days to incorporate that activity. Jenna’s family loved white water rafting and she thinks they should have scheduled more of that on their trip to Colorado. Heidi cautions though that sometimes it’s great to end an activity when everyone is still having fun.
Jenna asks what ways does Heidi think that adventuring creates a better family connection. Without all of the distractions of daily life, she feels like she gets to really get to talk with and learn from each other. It also creates a shared experience. Heidi adds that not all experiences are good ones, but they are great moments to build trust with each other. Jenna adds that those crappy moments give us a great opportunity for parents to model how to deal with those sticky situations. Heidi adds that she has seen a lot of generosity in those difficult moments as well.
Jenna asks, what are some adventures families can do without leaving their neighborhood? Heidi gives an example of how her family made luminaries out of ice and rings of fruit for the birds. They try to think about things that will get them outside. They also do family game nights - her daughter recently chose kickball. Days ago, they went ice skating on a pond in their neighborhood. Jenna feels like the thought of a specific time allotment for adventure can be off putting. She says some of her best moments with her kids are in small incremental time slots throughout the day. She feels like forced game nights and activities are not superior to short, but authentic moments of connection. Heidi says yes, keep it simple!
Jenna asks, why do some families not embrace adventure or outdoor activities? Heidi says over 50% of parents surveyed said they don’t adventure with their kids for fear of not knowing the answer to something their kids ask them. Our culture and the public education system create this “need to know the answers” mentality. The current research showing the brain's neuroplasticity is another reason why it’s so important to adventure. New experiences help our brains form new connections.
Jenna says that as self-directed learners, we know how following our curiosity is so important, but she knows from experience that we can also get into slumps and wonder, “what else can I do?” It’s always important to try new things.
Jenna asks, what is the most memorable trip you’ve had with your family? Heidi said living in an RV was such a great learning experience. It was such a simple life. It was an eye opener. Life is so complicated and going back to a simple lifestyle made her realize it’s more about sharing moments together than anything else. They are very curious now about an RV lifestyle. Many of her best memories came from moments in their adventure that weren’t planned for, like witnessing a moose fight in the Tetons after snowshoeing.
Jenna remembers a time when her family stayed in a small, bare bones cabin and it really made her reflect on their lifestyle too. It made her realize nothing really matters as much as the connection with each other.
Heidi enjoyed quarantine time because she got to spend more time with her kids. Both her and her husband are thinking about homeschooling permanently because the structure is really limiting and uninspiring. We don’t do school well. We aren’t the teacher-pleaser kind of people. Heidi’s son started up 4-5 new hobbies with all the free time he had during quarantine. He isn’t thriving in the school environment. They are thinking about worldschooling, taking a year off, or something else.
Heidi and her family are thinking about an RV trip or Hawaii in the future.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowJoin me on the Show!
Rogue Learner Homeschool Directory
Healthy Minds App
Ordinary Sherpa Website
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Guest Cohost
Sue Monteiro
I am a violinist and violin teacher with an online teaching studio. I have been a homeschooling mom for 16 years. I also run a musical themed online book club called "Learning Music With the Authors" where we read literature based on music and history and discuss the books with the authors. I also have a podcast of the same name where every month I go over the book introduction and review along with author interviews and interviews with musicians as well as present puzzles for the kids who read the books. (They can win prizes if they complete the puzzle!)
monteiromusicstudio.com
IG @homeschooling_music
https://www.facebook.com/belo.som.3/
"Learning Music With the Authors" Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/42jn5QtMTjHyV7qL89NKCm?si=_BX43J2LSUC4C19S2Upfpw&dl_branch=1
Show NotesJoin Me On The Show!
Listen to last week’s show with Lucy first?
Sue shares how unschooling really saved her and her son. After sending her son to kindergarten for a week, they decided public school wasn’t for them. Her son didn’t want to go each day and was running away from the classroom. Rather than addressing her son’s concerns, the teacher blamed Sue for her son’s behavior. After pulling him out of the traditional kindergarten classroom, she opted for a hybrid homeschooling program. Her son still wasn’t happy there. She ended up taking him out of that program as well. They spent a year unschooling. They went to the zoo, museums, and the beach. After receiving some pressure from her mom, Sue sent her son back to school. The school wanted to test her son to assess his reading level. The teacher said he had an advanced vocabulary and Sue liked the teacher because she was really respectful with her son. Sue liked the teacher and her son attended the school for a year. Once the year was over, and it was time to switch teachers, Sue found herself in the same position she was in when her son was in kindergarten, so she pulled him out again and has been unschooling him ever since. He is 16 now. Jenna relates to Sue’s journey, as she also felt like there were distinct phases which led them toward an unschooling approach. Jenna asks Sue to talk about her first takeaway from last week’s show with Lucy AitkenRead, which was centered around children’s rights and the third wave of unschooling. Sue liked the emphasis on children’s rights because she agrees that children just don’t have rights in today’s society. She shares a fascinating story of when she was asked to volunteer in a middle school. She had a group of student’s, whom she was meant to teach viola and violin to. They were completely disrespectful, even walking out of the classroom and calling her names. She was at a loss for what to do. Finally, she just asked them, “why are you here?” The kids’ reply was, “do you think we have a choice to be here?” This was a loud and clear message for Sue that kids don’t have choices and are not respected. This is the reason for their behavior. They are forced into subjects and classrooms, even if they have no interest in learning the material. Ultimately, this experience convinced Sue that her son should not attend school. Jenna relates to that experience so much. She says she reflects often on her experiences in the classroom, and wonders what she was doing there. She spent countless hours trying to make her lessons more engaging and more interesting than what the kids would actually rather be doing. But ultimately, she wishes she could have just asked them what they want to do and what they are interested in. Sue says we can learn a lot from looking back at our own childhoods. Many of the harshest things Sue remembers being said to her during her childhood, came from the lips of adults. A lot of the time, she thinks the way we talk to children gets passed on from generation to generation. Jenna adds that this is why deschooling is so important. It gives you a chance to reflect on your anger, fear and frustration. It helps you to better control your knee-jerk reactions and get to the bottom of how your emotions influence your reactions. It’s a lot of work and takes time. Jenna shares how she felt a lot of rage when her kids were young. She noticed it was partially an assumption that her kid’s behavior was ill intended on their part. Muddying the kitchen floor, for her, was seen as disrespectful. After loads of reflection and heaps of daily practice, she was able to change how she viewed these behaviors, and thereby freeing her from the rage. Sue shares a similar experience. Her son used to ride his bike around the neighborhood, up and down people’s driveways and take off. Sue was really angry, but realized that anger was a result of her feeling fearful that he would get hit by a car. Her solution was to find a safer place for him to ride his bike. Jenna shares a few of her favorite resources for peaceful parenting and consent-based education. Jenna says learning more about children’s rights and respecting children supports our efforts of putting it into practice. (See “resources mentioned in today’s show” at the bottom of this page for all the links. Jenna shares a quote from Lucy’s episode that really resonated with her and got her “all fired up.” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.” Sue adds that she loves that quote too, and the key is talking to our children and asking them what they need. It starts with the parents. She felt like there was really nothing she could do by volunteering for one hour in the middle school orchestra. It was much deeper than that. Jenna reflects on how she remembers learning about classroom management in her Elementary Education program. The answer to “classroom management” is so obvious to her now. It starts with respect. If the teacher is respectful of her students and truly values them, then “classroom management” is a non-issue. Sue mentions how much she liked Lucy’s comment in the show about how teenagers have a fire that can change everyone’s lives, but people are sadly afraid of that. She believes teenagers are so capable and she sees compassion in them. Jenna says she was scared of the teen years upon entering them, as many people are, based on societal perceptions. She discovered though, that her connection with her kids is only growing and the intellectual conversations are fun and she really values their opinions. Something Jenna may not have articulated clearly in the episode with Lucy AitkenRead - families have their own sets of values. Values shape how we live our lives. That may mean we eat plant-based, attend church services, travel the world, or volunteer in our communities. Many of these actions will inadvertently shape our children’s own values and perceptions as they grow. And in this way, we DO HAVE to acknowledge that parents control certain elements of our children’s lives. Where it gets tricky for me, and where some parents may begin to feel unsure about the line between autonomy and. community, is when our kids push up against our own personal core values or boundaries. They want to eat meat, jump on the furniture, spend their entire day playing video games, etc. But this, at least for me, is where unschooling can be so valuable to parents. We are well versed in our kids’ needs, abilities, and preferences. We’ve spent time developing trusting relationships with them where they feel respected and trusted to do the right thing. Unschooling is our superpower. All of these extraordinary advantages guide us to making informed decisions based on respect and community well being. And something we need to remember about that, is that our family decisions will vary so wildly from one another. Just because we all unschool, does not mean our families share all the same core values and that our children all have the same needs. That would be ridiculous, and is probably why most of us left public school systems, because we KNOW humans are unique and therefore require unique environments to thrive. So basically, I guess what I’m saying is, If we want to resolve conflict in a way that honors our own family’s needs, we'll have to search within our own family for the answers, not rely on a set of rules. And we need to be flexible, ready to adapt as needed. Sue shares how she teaches violin and viola lessons online and also offers amazing book clubs and podcasts about music history for teenagers. In her latest book club, students got a private Q & A with the author M.T. Anderson discussing his book, The Symphony for the City of the Dead: Dmitri Shostakovich and the Siege of Leningrad. Resources Mentioned in Today's Showhttps://discolearning.com/register/brain-garden-rewiring-your-negative-brain-patterns-for-respectful-parents-and-unschoolers/
https://sophiechristophy.wordpress.com
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfNS-if7LkeWmth64np73pemgRnp8CgvjfmeBpPdVAYjtMDBA/viewform
https://sparethekids.com/about-the-workshops/
https://shameproofparenting.com
https://www.instagram.com/krissyscouch/
https://www.instagram.com/parentstogether/
The Symphony for the City of the Dead: Dmitri Shostakovich and the Siege of Leningrad by M.T. Anderson
Vivaldi’s Virgins: A Novel by Barbara Quick
Ways to Connect
Email me: [email protected]
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Guest
Lucy AitkenRead
YouTube
IG @lulasticblog
Lulastic.co.uk
https://discolearning.com
Show NotesTopics Discussed in Today’s Show:
Lucy is a mom of two, a 10 year old daughter and an 8 year old son. She is originally from London, but now lives in New Zealand. They moved there to bring out a little more of their wild. Her kids have never been to school. The moment her daughter was born, they began thinking about life without school. Her and her family took a year-long trip around Europe and one of the things they firmly decided on during that trip was that their kids were not going to attend school. Through her reading and experience in a German forest kindergarten, she was able to draw a map of how their lives could look and now they’re living it.
Jenna mentions that many families seem to know right from the beginning that they want to unschool, however her progression to this lifestyle was a very gradual one. Jenna asks which book Lucy read during her travels that she picked up at a second-hand shop. Lucy said she read John Holt’s book How Children Learn and Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff, which were both very influential. The Continuum Concept had a huge impact on Lucy’s mindset about childhood.
Jenna reflected on her own paradigm shift and how moving away from her hometown may have been a catalyst for her to be able to let go of influences and really dig into her own values, and essentially reinvent herself.
Lucy adds that in one traditional culture, teenagers leave their town and change their name. Sometimes you need to physically move away from your heritage, reputation, beliefs and values in order to step into the new invitation in your life. It’s a grand gesture. It is important and significant and symbolically represents a whole new leaf that you’re turning.
Jenna says that she thinks she wouldn’t have had the courage to leap into this lifestyle had she stayed in her hometown. She remembers seeing a documentary about a ritual in Africa, in which the community members who are approaching adulthood are taken away from the village for some time and while they’re away, the village builds them a house. When they return, they’re presented with the house and are now seen as adult members of society. It’s a really important moment in their lives.
Lucy adds, it feels so important to have these communal rituals. She says it’s no wonder our industrialized, capitalist society has so many problems when our culture is devoid of these rituals. It’s so obvious.
Shifting gears, Jenna asks Lucy to describe Childism. Lucy says that childism is a form of prejudice, a manifestation of ageism. It’s a marginalisation of children. Jenna asks, how would it impact our society if children were respected and treated as humans? Lucy says it would be one of the most transformational things to happen to our society, because if you’re raised with a sense of your own rights and dignity you will then treat others with that same respect, worth, and value. It’s also really influential on home education because you can maybe be doing all of the right things in terms of learning and education, but if you don’t believe that children are worthy of rights and dignity, then that will leak out and affect how children learn and the classroom culture. Jenna adds that children’s rights are so fundamental to self-directed learning, and you can’t really have one without the other. Lucy says you’d just be undermining the child’s sense of direction and self-determination because you don’t actually believe that they have everything they need within them.
There are simple things we do every day to undermine a child, Jenna asks if there are any examples Lucy can think of. Lucy says one that is really obvious is adults doing things to children; putting on clothes, picking them up, etc. Lucy says one way of respecting even an infant's autonom is by letting them know when you’re going to pick them up and giving them a chance to respond, either physically or verbally. When they’re toddlers, make sure they can see your face and hear your voice when engaging with them about getting their clothes on, picking them up or taking them somewhere. A good way to think about your actions is to ask yourself, “Would I like this done to me?”
Jenna mentions how comical it actually sounds when you think of another adult pulling you by the arm. It’s akin to a man telling a woman to smile when they’re walking down the street. Lucy says it’s another one of the hierarchies we have in our society, which is that men get to tell random female strangers in the street to cheer up or to smile. Sexism sits right alongside childism.
Lucy’s advocacy for children really started to unfold when she was working for the NGO sector and noticed the total blindness to the very many ways that our society is infringing on children’s rights. Colleagues of hers would say these blanket statements like, “Oh, I just hate children.” Lucy realized that children really are one of the last groups of people in society where you can just come out and say, “I hate ….” “And until we recognize that and change it, all the charities in the world trying to work on human rights stuff are just peeing into the wind because this stuff has to begin on day one with our children. This has to be a generational shift that recognizes and honors children as valuable, worthy members of society. Otherwise we’re not going to see those shifts towards empathy and respect that will change everything.”
Jenna states that Lucy makes such a great point. She’s never considered how people view children before. Jenna points out that teenagers are marginalized most. Lucy asks, “What if we lived in a paradigm based on connection, based on the idea that our wellness is wrapped up in the wellness of other people, that really we are one throbbing being; all of humankind. We can strip away the labels.” Teenagers play an important role in challenging society. They have a fire that can ignite the change we need to see.
Jenna was thinking about how much is missed out on by keeping teens busy with things adults have decided for them. It’s such a shame, and it’s a missed opportunity for creativity, innovation, and contributions from this age group to our society. Lucy adds that it’s no wonder that so much self-combustion happens during the teenage years if that’s the only way we can honor their being. Jenna points out that by having teens in institutions all day, it strips away any opportunity for them to contribute to society in a meaningful way until they’re in their 20’s.
Lucy was truant a lot in her teenage years, and for a long time she thought she was just naughty. Now, she realizes how her teenage self was right in removing herself from a toxic place. Jenna shares how her son, at age 13, has such a great awareness of what he can and can’t handle. He recognizes the need for rest, and is respectful of his own needs. She was very proud of him for that because it’s a skill that many people never really learn. Lucy says it’s so beautiful and how sad it is that he experienced physical pain from the stress of an institution. Lucy says she has shared a lot about the trauma of school. She gets a lot of comments on social media about how schools aren’t that way anymore and their school is a really positive experience for their children, but Lucy points out that on the whole, it’s still a system that’s problematic and it really hasn’t changed that much. She shares how a teacher friend of hers is expected to dole out detentions for his students who don’t wear their sports socks to P.E. The missing piece is still that children are worthy of rights and dignity.
Jenna asks about the third wave of unschooling… is there one? How is unschooling changing? Lucy hopes that the audience will contribute to this conversation. Unschooling has been packaged up and named, yet it’s existed since the beginning of time. Children have always learned skills that were important to their culture, raising children without punishment and without a forced curriculum. This was the first wave of unschooling. Community wellbeing was at the forefront until industrialization. The second wave of unschooling happened in the 70’s and 80’s and originated from John Holt’s ideas about learning. Consent and autonomy were pulled out from that wave. There was a shift politically toward free markets and privatization. Neoliberalism pushed for individualism, as opposed to societal wellbeing. Lucy wonders if this influenced the unschooling movement in a way that led toward individual freedom at the cost of community wellbeing. The conversation now is centered around how freedom and equality are at work in our unschooling currently. She feels like we are possibly entering a new era that is trying to bring together the idea of autonomy and sovereignty being important, but also honoring the community and trying to create a self-determination that happens amidst community. She recommends the book, Raising Free People by Akilah Richards. Akilah Richards describes this concept in her book as compassionate autonomy. The book really sums up where we’re at now and what the invitations are for unschoolers. Lucy feels like it could be a third wave of unschooling. Lucy believes that so often conflict within the unschooling community stems from families not agreeing on what to expect from children and what they can manage.
Jenna shares that for her, she has a real conflict about autonomy vs. parental responsibility and she mentions how labels (like unschooling) can sometimes make people feel excluded if they aren’t abiding by all the principles of the group, and then create self-doubt on the side of the person not checking all the boxes within that label. For Jenna, it was difficult to find the balance between keeping her children safe and healthy, while still offering them autonomy. Lucy says it’s probably a really common experience. Lucy asks that when Jenna peered into unschooling, was there too much child-centeredness and too much forgetting of parent’s needs? Jenna says it’s not just the lack of emphasis on parent’s needs, but also the lack of a parental role in keeping them healthy and safe. An example is that if your child ate candy all day, it would mean that the parent is not protecting their child’s health. Jenna feels like she has a responsibility to her children to keep them healthy, as she would do for herself. In the second wave of unschooling, Lucy thinks that there is a really strong sense that there is only one way of unschooling, and it requires absolute autonomy even at great cost for some families. Lucy has experienced the power of abundant thinking in her home, where you're not creating a scarcity mindset. So, for example, if you have chocolate in all of the drawers in your home, the kids don’t want to eat chocolate all day because there are much yummier things that their bodies desire, but in some homes that would be a catastrophe. But that doesn’t mean that those families aren’t unschooling and doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get to experience the support and inspiration that can come when you are within an unschooling movement. Lucy says it pains her to know that there are people out there who weren’t able to feel the cultural identity, love and respect that can be found within unschooling communities because they didn’t feel worthy of the label because they weren’t unschooling in the way that those online groups, forums and blogs seem to think is the only way to unschool.
Jenna describes an example from an interview she did with a grown unschooler where the mother made the decision to take away a specific video game from her brother because it was causing stress in the home and she didn’t like the aggression it brought about in her son. Lucy says, who are we to judge if it brought about more peace and deepened the connection and the honesty within the home, that is incredible. Jenna says that she wants to keep relationships at the forefront of her mind during the course of her unschooling journey. That may mean eliminating something from our home or altering it, but that’s sort of irrelevant. Lucy adds that if the foundation of your home is based on children’s rights, you won’t have a situation in which the adult is making authoritarian decisions because you’ll be leaning into each conflict, analyze your reaction and feelings, you’ll have honest and transparent dialog back and forth with your kids, and together you’ll muddle through it. Lucy would like to see in the third wave of unschooling that unschooling families embrace children’s rights that each family can be absolutely trusted to embody the principles of unschooling as best they can with the most shared power and respect of their children - a lot more trust and a lot less judgement.
An example Jenna shares is how her son articulated a goal of him not swearing while playing video games. After weeks of discussion back and forth about how to address this problem in their home, her son is making an effort to stop swearing because it affects everyone in the home. This is a good example of how community wellbeing is an essential part of unschooling life. She adds that conflict and friction are part of their home. She adds that everyone may handle the same situation differently and that’s okay if it feels like it’s working for them. One thing Jenna feels she has learned in the last seven years of traveling and living in different cultures from her own is that the human experience is unique. Every person has their own way of experiencing the world and a lot can be learned from each other because of it. Shaming people does not bring about change or evolution of any kind.
Lucy shares how conflict and friction are not problems. It does not mean that it is all going wrong. Lucy focused on joy above everything at the beginning of her unschooling journey. And although she is still committed to joy, she embraces conflict and sees conflict and tension as an invitation to get more intimate with each other. Jenna feels like sometimes joy comes as a result of conflict. Lucy shares a quote from Walt Whitman, “We contain multitudes,” meaning we’re conflictual beings and we contain peace, joy, grief, frustration and peace all at the same time, as do our homes and children. There is a surrender that comes from knowing it’s all part of us, existing simultaneously.
Jenna asks, “what piece of advice can you leave listeners with who are unschooling or beginning their journey but are dealing with fear in some capacity?”
Lucy says that fear is completely and utterly NORMAL. We are a school-fixated culture. School is the provider of almost all social relationships. So to do something outside of it, is an incredibly radical decision which takes a huge amount of courage. “Unschooling wobbles” as Lucy refers to them as, are completely normal. A few techniques to deal with our fear is through affirmations, breathing, and self-kindness practices. Befriending fear is important too. Get curious about it. Give fear the respect it’s asking from you. Tap into support systems and watch inspiring content on YouTube. Fear is like conflict, if we get curious about it, it’s an incredible opportunity for self-learning and healing. There are so many layers to peel back and wounds that can be healed from getting to know it.
Resources Mentioned in Today’s Show
Leave a Voicemail
How Children Learn by John Holt
Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff
Raising Free People by Akilah Richards
Lucy’s YouTube Channel - Life Without School
Lucy’s Unschooling Course - Disco Learning
Ways to Connect
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
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Guest Co-host
Erin Rosemond
IG @ever.learning
Show NotesJenna has Erin Rosemond joining the show today as a guest co-host. She has been home educating for 18 years and has four children. She became interested in home education early on when a friend of Erin’s mentioned she’d be home educating her son. That conversation happened when her oldest son was just a baby. Erin explains how they were self-directed from the beginning as her family is very self-directed anyway. She would describe herself as unschooling, yet she never felt the need to label what they were doing, outside of digging into content for her own homeschooling practice. Jenna adds that she also is cautious in labeling her family’s home ed lifestyle as she likes the freedom to know that they can be whatever they need to be, without needing to label. The label is helpful when searching for resources online, Erin adds.
Jenna asks Erin about her 1st takeaway from episode 016 with Zak Slayback. Erin had many takeaways from the episode, but her first was about Zak’s comment about narrative violations. The expectations people have about going to school don’t actually match up with the results. Erin found that in her job recruiting young people, she has often found that her hiring is not always based on credentials (although a range of people with and without qualifications are applying), but rather they are just a better fit for that role.
Erin reflected on the amount of active learning that actually takes place in a college year and was shocked to come to the realization that it’s really only a total of 23 weeks. (six months) It made her look even further into our k-12 education and realize it’s no different there. We spend hours of our lives wrapped up in the huge production that is our education system, but the number of engaged hours spent learning is so few.
Jenna adds that the lack of efficiency in schools helped reveal to her husband how unschooling could actually work and that by practicing academic skills for years (that their son had already mastered) was a big waste of his time.
Jenna talks about the research illustrating how 4 hours of work is sufficient and how assigning specific hours to our learning time is virtually impossible since we all have different times of day in which we're productive, particularly if you’re talking about doing hard work. More info about “The Making of an Expert” can be found here. (not mentioned in the show, but I found it relevant to SDE nonetheless.) Jenna feels like she didn’t have enough practice as a child and young adult in setting her own goals and then planning out how she could achieve them. She wonders how this may have helped her now in her entrepreneurial endeavors. Erin has always sought out entrepreneurial positions where she feels like she has some autonomy. She acknowledges some of that might be attributed to her personality, but she also remembers having some of her best ideas and creative thoughts outside of school, while on the bus home.
Regarding socialization, Erin agrees that school doesn’t provide a better environment for interactions with diverse populations than home education. In her experience as a homeschooling mom, there was ample opportunity for her kids to socialize with people of all races, religions, and especially socioeconomic statuses. She’s often seen people buy houses or move houses to live in a better school district, so people are purposefully avoiding diverse schools if they can afford to.
Erin adds that many people think of home education happening within the home and only amongst family, but she calls it a myth. Jenna’s experience this year, albeit unique because she’s living abroad, has lead to many conversations about different customs in the Uk vs. USA. She feels like homeschooling allows you the opportunity to seek out experiences with a variety of people, even more so than school can. Erin adds that although some aren’t exposed to a variety of cultural and diverse experiences when they’re young, it doesn't mean that they won’t or can’t later on in life. She refers back to a quote from the last episode where Jenna points out that there really is no expiration to learning. You always have the opportunity to travel and learn about people and places at any time in your life. Jenna says that’s a good argument for schools to not offer diverse learning environments, because kids can always learn it on their own time when they’ve graduated.
Jenna’s second takeaway had to do with a quote from Peter Theil’s book “Zero to One” that Zak mentioned. It referred to competition leading to complete and utter apathy toward their goals. Jenna experienced this with her photography career. It is highly competitive and she remembers the creativity and idea generation plummeting when she’d be surrounded by other talented photographer’s work.
Erin talks about an author she heard discussing how when she’s writing, she purposefully cocoons herself from other’s work so she can keep her ideas original. Jenna talks about how her daughter also feels a degree of intimidation upon seeing expert level work from others and sort of shuts down because she fears that the only reason the person has successful work is because she has an innate ability. It seems to Jenna, that her daughter sees talent in a very black or white manner, you either have it or you don’t. Jenna talks about how someone once told her that baby’s learn to walk, not by crawling, pulling themselves up and taking steps, but rather by falling down. She feels like school doesn’t give children room to make mistakes or fail because there is so much riding on their ability to perform.
Erin’s third takeaway is about the schooled mindset, which she interpreted as people going along life, completing all the various steps society expects from you and never considering another way due to the fear of it not being tried and true.
Erin shares how she walked into three separate libraries in her area just before school was meant to start for the year, and the book exhibits were full of resources and picture books about bullying and adjusting to school. Erin thought it was kind of odd that we’ve accepted this as part of what’s necessary for society. Jenna added that bullying is a result of how schools are organized, so it seems like a mute point to continue teaching about how to combat it. Erin also added that we’ll continue to need assemblies about bullying so long as we have such a high student-teacher ratio and we compare kids to their peers. Jenna compared it to healthcare and how we treat the symptom rather than the cause of the disease.
Jenna’s last takeaway was in regards to Zak’s advice about emailing hiring managers directly and finding mentors or apprenticeships as a way of gaining first-hand experience in the field you're interested in. She plans on encouraging her own kids to network with professionals working in the careers they are eager to have one day. First, she hopes to give her kids numerous opportunities to work alongside adults so that her kids feel comfortable and confident interacting with people older than them. Erin describes two examples of mentorships that were particularly nice for her kids, one with an artist and another in woodworking. Jenna would like to find a mentor for her son involving coding and game development. Her daughter began a mentorship with a pet sitter before the pandemic started and Jenna found that it offered more than just information about pets for her daughter, she learned so much from her conversations with the mentor. Sadly, she didn’t get to continue because of the lockdowns.
Jenna is noticing a transition with her kids, where meeting up with a large group of other home education families is not fulfilling the needs of her kids. They are yearning for connection with people who have similar interests as them. Erin points out that sometimes those mentorship experiences can provide a much richer form of social activity than a home ed group. Erin points out that a lot of people find connection and social engagement online these days. Jenna has noticed that her son feels comfortable and happy with his friends from Galileo and the gaming community, which is all online. She quit bringing him along to the home ed groups because they were not serving him in any way. Erin thinks there is often a bit of a bias towards extroverted and organized types of socialization.
Resources Mentioned in Today’s ShowResearch about 4 hour work day
Episode 016 with Zak Slayback
The Making of an Expert (not mentioned in the show, but interesting article I found when researching productivity and flow)
Join me on the Show!
Leave a Voicemail!
Free to Learn by Peter Gray
Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
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JOIN ME ON THE SHOW!!!
Guest:
Zak Slayback
Author published at McGraw-Hill; former research fellow at the University of Pennsylvania; principal at 1517 Fund, a VC firm spun out of the Thiel Fellowship. Zak is a career & communications expert whose content has been highlighted or featured in Fast Company, Business Insider, The Muse, Newsweek, and the New York Observer. He was an early team member at the startup apprenticeship company Praxis, where he was charged with recruiting new business partners and placing apprentices. He left the University of Pennsylvania in 2014 after pursuing a major in Philosophy.
twitter: @zslayback
personal site: zakslayback.com
clubhouse: @slayback
Show Notes:
Zak Slaybach started the Deschool Yourself project with his co-host Jeff Till. They talked with a handful of people who had experience with education in k-12 and higher education. Zak’s interest in doing the podcast came from his unique experience of working with young adults from different backgrounds and placing them in jobs that required degrees, although these young people didn't have degrees. He noticed a trend where the people who had the most training and academic backgrounds were least prepared for the jobs they were placed in. It was a narrative violation because he’d expected that the best performers in school who’d been accepted to elite colleges would have the best self-governing and organization skills, but in fact that wasn’t the case for the majority of the people he worked with.
The pattern which unfolded was that unschooled or homeschooled people were far more capable at self-directing in their jobs, and he found himself seeking them out. It also made him curious about the link between homeschooling and successful job placement. Zak started researching the history of education and how children learn. He named Peter Gray and John Taylor Gatto’s writings as being most helpful.
He remembers one particular experience where he spoke with the CEO of a company where he was trying to place young adults without degrees in jobs at the company. The job description in the job advertisement said “degree or equivalent work experience required” and he asked the CEO what he meant by that. The CEO said equivalent work experience meant just a semester of work experience, so 4-6 months. He explicitly told Zak that someone would learn more about the business by spending time in the company than they would at university. The degree is nothing more than a filter. It is not a leading indicator of a good hire.
Jenna asks Zak why his company only hires degreeless adults. Zak explains that he worked for the Peter Thiel Fellowship which gives away $100,000 to young adults with new business ideas to start a company rather than going to college. There’s a line in Peter Thiel’s book, “Zero to One” that reads elite students climb confidently until they reach competition sufficiently intense enough to beat their dreams out of them.
Jenna actually recalls when her daughter was preschool-aged, she was an amazing artist who did art because it was fun and she enjoyed the process so much. As soon as she entered the school system and began comparing her work to her peers, she stopped producing art and lost her individuality because she thought other people’s work was better than hers.
Zak adds that hyper-competition leads to people not pursuing their ideas and/or copying each other. Some of young people who were selected for this fellowship have gone on to develop things like Figma, OYO Rooms, Ethereum, Longevity Fund, and Luminar.
Jenna asks Zak about gatekeepers in the US being less prolific than in Europe. From her experience living in Europe, it still seems imperative for companies that young people get college degrees. Zak agrees that it’s used as a filtering mechanism for companies to weed through applicants. He doesn’t think it’s been all that successful for Europe though in producing innovative tech companies, with the exception of Spotify which was developed in Sweden. He points out that goals for US companies vary from European countries in that US companies are always striving for growth, whereas European companies are all about keeping pace and business sustainability.
Switching gears, Jenna asks Zak about his book “The End of School.” Zak explains that the book actually started as a personal challenge to write every day, once a day, for thirty days. That turned into a longer three month challenge. He says you naturally begin writing about the things that are on your mind at the time. He encourages people with knowledge and new perspectives to not be afraid to write about what they learn and not to self-censor too much. Jenna adds that this project is a perfect example really of how self-directed learning works, following your interests. That’s actually how the Rogue Learner podcast was born.
Zak talks about some of the problems he sees in traditional schools. He starts with talking about what he calls “the schooled mindset” which means students are looking at life in levels. They are essentially leveling up in life, yet each level does not promise anything “better.” He refers to Nathaniel Brandon who asserts that it’s not the achievement of a goal that makes people fulfilled, it’s the progress toward the achievement of meaningful goals. School has us reaching toward goals, but not meaningful ones. For example, we set goals in school like; land this job, get this promotion, pass this class, get that ‘A’ on the test. Jenna points out that a lot of the goals students are trying to achieve are set out by their parents as well. And to some degree, Zak points out that this comes from the pressure in our society where children’s success in life reflects back on their parents.
We’ve reached a point for the first time in society where two generations have been thoroughly schooled. Parents are expecting their kids to live better lives than themselves, but the metrics for which we measure “better lives” isn’t based on overall well being, life expectancy, etc., rather it’s primarily based on how credentialed they are. More credentials does not equate to better or more fulfilling lives, unfortunately.
Jenna adds that there is a lot of wasted time in school and it comes from the idea that we all learn in a linear fashion, which isn’t the case. There’s no expiration date for when a person can learn something. Zak feels as though he was able to become educated in spite of schooling not because of it.
Jenna mentions how the most engaged and curious students in her classroom most often were those kids who had access to diverse experiences and people in their home lives. The kids who went places on the weekends and enjoyed board games with grandparents on the weekend were the students who most enjoyed learning. With homeschooling, she feels that “the weekend” can be possible everyday. You can mix with various age groups, go to interesting places and spend time with your loved ones every single day if you want.
Zak says if he were given the choice between hiring a student who attended a magnet school and participated in a variety school-based extracurriculars vs. a homeschooled student who’d worked at Chick- Fila, he’d likely choose the latter. He adds that the reason is they would likely have the required soft skills necessary for their work. Jenna mentions how the soft skills are easier to acquire when you’re interacting daily with adults of all ages from varying backgrounds and experience levels, whereas in school you’ll likely only get the chance to talk with teachers in a top-down, authoritative situation. The teacher has a lot of control over the conversation in the classroom.
On the topic of socialization and diversity, Jenna says she finds it tragic that in most cases students are lumped together by zip code because it prohibits us from mixing with different races and socioeconomic classes than our own. In home education groups however, we are meeting with families from all different cultures and backgrounds from all over the county. The argument that combining disparate zip codes within a school district allows for diversity misses the reality that segregation still naturally occurs within the school itself. Zak says removing the geographical association with schools would be the best way to go forward, however it would generate an immense amount of pushback from teacher’s unions and property owners. Jenna states that school systems can’t truly be equal when they are geographically appropriated because the wealthier families will always have a leg up by being able to move to the more desired school districts. Zak adds that the argument that home education is expensive may not be as valid as families think when you consider the price for living in a “good school district.” Plus there are so many free resources available and even options for parents who both work full time.
Jenna asks, what are some ways parents can deschool, particularly those who want to trust in self-directed learning but find it challenging because of their schooled mindset? When a child begins to develop a curiosity and pursue it, deschooling has reached its end. Peter Gray’s work was transformation in bringing a language to this concept for Zak. Zak has seen most success in families where the parents have guardrails in place which allow students to access their interests by imploring them to use their own skills or money to access it, while also providing numerous opportunities for them to absorb information about their interests. An example of this would be Lenore Skenazy’s story from the Let Grow organization, who let her kid ride the subway home in New York and was dubbed America’s worst mom. Deschooling is hard sometimes, but be patient with yourself and your child.
Jenna asks what is the best way to prepare young adults for the ever-changing workplace? Zak says as many apprenticeships or mentoring opportunities as possible. Turn to hiring managers in the field you want to pursue for feedback on skills and requirements your students should be acquiring. Young adults should get really good at cold emailing people. You can sign up for Zak’s masterclass to learn how to write professional emails. Finding out how you can add value to the company and explicitly telling the hiring manager that, will help the company place you and give them an incentive to let you intern with them. You can find out what skills would add value to the company by doing a bit of homework in advance and acquiring those specific skills beforehand.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowDeschool Yourself Podcast
Pints with Aquinas
Zak Slayback Website
The End of School by Zak Slayback
How to Get Ahead by Zak Slayback
Free Resources for Homeschoolers
Masterclass: learn to write professional emails
Lenore Skenazy’s: Let Grow
Nathaniel Brandon
Zero to One by Peter Thiel
Episode 11 and 12 with Naomi Fisher
Ways to ConnectEmail me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Show Notes
Announcement: Jenna is looking for guest co-hosts to help her with the key takeaways from her guest episodes as she currently does with her husband. You can connect with her here if you’re interested in finding out more information.
Jenna will be giving away 1 book for every 5 reviews given on Apple Podcasts. If you leave a written review and want to win a copy of Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher or Free to Learn by Peter Gray. If you’ve left a review, just send an email to [email protected] letting me know the screen name you left it under and the address where you’d like to have the book shipped. A copy of the book of your choice will be mailed directly to you if you win!
Jenna and Chris want to share some changes happening with their family in the hopes that by sharing how they’re dealing with difficult or challenging circumstances, it will help others who may be going through the same thing.
Our daughter recently requested she go back to school. During the pandemic, she found it challenging to meet her academic goals alone. Although we don’t love the idea, we are open minded and support our children’s wishes to learn in a way that best suits them.
Jenna points out that the pandemic played a huge role in the social side of things this year. Moving to a new country and the precise timing that the pandemic started made it impossible to develop life-long relationships and build friendships.
Their daughter likes having her schedule dictated for her, which Jenna feels is a result of having been in school for so many years. She finds it challenging to self direct her learning, because she’s never practiced it before. Jenna would love to hear feedback from the listeners to find out if any children who’ve always been unschooled develop this need for structured learning.
Over the next six months, they plan on having a lot of dialogue back and forth with their daughter to make sure being in school is still the right choice for her. They have picked a school, together with their daughter, which they think will be a good fit for her specific learning goals and emotional needs.
Although they support their daughter’s decision, they do worry about her creativity being stifled by the one-size-fits-all approach that is conventional schooling, but hope by picking a charter school which encourages students’ individuality she will have the opportunity still to really shine.
One of Chris’ takeaways from the episode with Peter Gray last week was that children and humans were born with the innate ability to learn and it doesn’t need to be forced upon us. The idea that education was built for obedience is still evident today in it’s rigid and inflexible system, which discourages questioning and discourse.
The second key takeaway; the school system was not designed for critical thinking and robs children from exploring their interests in a way that doesn’t take away from their sleep requirements. Oftentimes, youth are working on their hobbies and extra-curriculars late into the evenings because during the day, they have a curriculum forced upon them in school, most of which is not necessary for life. We’re essentially building a society of unhappy people learning topics that don’t interest them and working in jobs they hate.
Jenna asks listeners to consider what they would have pursued further in school had they been allowed to learn about anything. Take a moment to reflect on that. Where would it have taken you? How would your life be different right now?
The third take away from the Peter Gray episodes was that the act of being evaluated, no matter the reason, creates fear and stress on the one being evaluated. It takes the fun out of learning and demonstrating competency of a concept. By evaluating students, we also take away the desire to take chances because they are more inclined to meet the EXACT criteria for the assignment so they don’t compromise their grades. Testing kids all the time stifles critical thinking, problem solving, and creativity.
Jenna heard a professor interviewed on The School Sucks Project podcast who offers his students complete autonomy over how they learn the material in his class. You can check that out here.
Chris asks: why are we so concerned about performance? Why are we so concerned about grading and evaluating people?
Jenna emphasizes the point Peter Gray made about how quickly one can learn a new skill or concept if it’s needed for their particular goals, careers, etc. She uses the SATS as an example. Unschooled children can study with a tutor for 3- 6 months and pass the SATS, so why is it that students who have attended 12 years of traditional schooling also feel compelled to or need to hire tutors to pass them? It’s mainly because they don’t remember everything they learned over the course of their education because it was memorized for a test, regurgitated, and then forgotten.
Final thoughts shared were about how reassured Jenna and Chris feel about their choice to unschool after listening to the interview with Dr. Peter Gray.
Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's ShowBecome a guest co-host
Episode 013 and 014 with Peter Gray
Free to Learn by Peter Gray
Changing our Minds by Naomi Fisher
The School Sucks Project Podcast
Ways to Connect
Email me: [email protected]
Facebook Instagram
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038
Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner
Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg
Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner
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Show Notes
The fifth optimizing condition is free age mixing with children across all ages. Throughout history, children have spent most of their time in the company of other children, not adults. Sudbury Valley School offers this model. Children learn from one another. Kids don’t inherently self-segregate if they aren’t forced to. Age gaps provide learning opportunities for younger children by way of the older children boosting the younger ones up to an activity level they wouldn’t otherwise be at if they were with their same-aged peers. The older children learn how to explain things which cements their own knowledge. They also learn to care for others and lead. Kids even learn to read through games with older kids, because the game demands they learn it. This is a natural motivator for learning to read. It’s important for kids to have older children as models, maybe even more so than having adult models.
Jenna adds that for her, it’s been challenging to provide age-mixing for her kids during the Covid-19 pandemic due to all the restrictions on social gatherings. As a solution, she provided an online self-directed school alternative which allows for age-mixing and guidance from facilitators. You can learn more about Galileo here, or sign up to try it out with the code “Rogue Learner” and get $100 off your first month’s tuition.
The sixth optimizing condition is immersion in a stable, moral, and caring community. Even with the other optimizing conditions in place, if a child doesn’t feel a sense of being part of a larger community of people. They learn that the purpose of life is not just to serve their own selfish needs. It helps them become good citizens later on.
Jenna says that American schools can provide this sense of belonging through school spirit and mascots and ultimately provides validation to those raising questions about socialization and the lack of a sense of community for homeschooled children.
Peter Gray talks about the research supporting how school climate is the most important factor in determining how schools would perform academically, and closes the gap between students who do well and not well in school. Feeling comfortable and accepted in a school was critical.
Jenna points out that after interviewing people from all different backgrounds, she was surprised to uncover a trend in which people felt relatively happy in elementary school, but as they began entering secondary school, they lost their motivation and felt like a small fish in a huge pond.
Peter Gray notes that the pressure and stress put on children is however, happening earlier and earlier. His own half sister resigned after years of teaching in middle school because administrators dictated exactly how and what she taught even though she had evidence to support her methods were effective. Although kindergarten used to be a place of play and socializing, it’s now become drill and practice with worksheets and messages that children are already behind.
Jenna follows up with a question regarding the 3 R’s. If children are given full autonomy over their learning, how do they learn math, reading and writing?
Peter Gray asks, “Why are we so concerned about math in the first place?” Most of the math we need in everyday life can be learned in context by cooking, playing board games, and making change when you buy something. Research of the “summer slide” shows that children’s ability to solve computational calculations decreased over the summer, yet their ability to solve problems involving reasoning and problem solving increased, and increased at a faster rate than that of which it would have in the course of the school year. You can find some of Peter Gray’s blog posts on Psychology Today about math, particularly this article about a survey he did with unschooling families. We live in a numerate world and to the degree the child is being brought up in a numerate world, the child will learn about numbers and will learn to do those calculations that are necessary to do. Any other calculations can be learned at any point in life when the child finds them important to what they want to do in life. There are two times to learn something, when you’re so curious about something that you just can’t stop yourself from learning it, and the other is when you need to know it. There’s no critical period for learning anything other than your native language without an accent. You learn most efficiently when you need to know it.
- Visa fler
