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In this episode of Leadership on the Links, Tyler sits down with David J. McGregor, a seasoned turf professional and Master Greenkeeper, to discuss his journey from England to the U.S. and his insights into the differences in golf course management between the two regions. More importantly, David introduces Evoke IQ, an innovative automated budget tracking platform designed to streamline financial management for golf course superintendents and club managers.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:David McGregor’s Career Path – From his start at Wentworth Golf Club hosting European Tour events to leading operations at Westwood CC.
U.S. vs. European Golf Course Management – Key differences in staffing, efficiency, and technology adoption.
What is Evoke IQ? – How this platform automates budget tracking and integrates with existing accounting and payroll systems.
Superintendents as Financial Stewards – How better financial visibility builds confidence with club leadership and improves overall course management.
Soundbytes:
“From the U.S., we admire England’s rich golf history, and from England, they admire the innovation and technology that drive the American golf industry.” (14:58)
“A few years ago, I found myself spending too much time in my office, worrying about reports, invoices, and ensuring we were on track financially. Of course, I want my budget to be accurate, and I want to plan efficiently. But, as I’ve said before, I’m a greenkeeper at heart. Spending more time in the office than on the golf course became a real problem because, at the end of the day, we’re judged by the condition of the golf course.(23:18)
Quotes:
“One of my proudest accomplishments was becoming a Master Greenkeeper in 2019, which was a rewarding milestone and a way to stay connected to home.”
"I was young—only 21—when I made the move to the U.S. I’d been a greenkeeper since I left school at 16. The system in England is a bit different; as long as you start college right away, you can also enter the workforce, which is exactly what I did. I loved greenkeeping then, and I still do, but at the time, I felt like I had nowhere to go.
“To put it simply, it’s a budget-tracking tool that gives you a live budget, 365 days a year, with zero manual input. Gone are the days of checking the old manual ledgers, pulling labor reports, and manually compiling everything to understand where you stand financially.”
“Evoke IQ automates data flow from our accounting system and payroll, linking it directly with our budgets and schedules. Now, when I walk into the office each morning, I can check my screen in just 15 seconds and know exactly where I stand with labor, ledger, and my overall budget. I can then walk out onto the golf course, make decisions in real-time, and know exactly where things are.”
Links Mentioned:
LinkedIn: David McGregor, https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-mcgregor-mg-3a3299308/ Website: Evoke IQ, https://www.evokeiq.com/
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In this episode of Leadership on the Links, Tyler sits down with Christopher Brown, CEO of Teed & Brown, a seasoned professional who transitioned from golf course management to the lawn care industry. Chris shares his journey, from working in the golf course industry to leading Teed & Brown, a rapidly growing lawn care company. With a focus on leadership, career growth, and industry evolution, Chris provides valuable insights into balancing business expansion with maintaining a strong company culture.
You'll hear about Chris's leadership philosophies, the tools and strategies that drive Teed & Brown's success, and why he believes open knowledge sharing is crucial for industry growth. This conversation is packed with practical takeaways for professionals in golf, turf management, and business leadership.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:Career Perspectives: Why Chris made the switch from golf course management to lawn care and how it reshaped his career, and how he found passion in his current role. He described being open to exploring alternative career paths, which offered a better work-life balance and earning potential in adjacent industries like lawn care.
Scaling Company Growth with Team Growth: How Teed & Brown scaled from a small operation to a multi-location business with 130 employees.
Employee Development: The role of structured career paths, performance tracking, and continuous learning in building a high-performing team.
The Power of Collaboration: Why knowledge-sharing and mentorship are essential for long-term success in the turf industry.
Soundbites:
“You have to constantly reset your approach, reminding yourself that each customer is new to the conversation. What may be second nature to you is entirely fresh to them, so you need to present it as if it’s their first time hearing it.” (22:29)
“Many companies struggle because they’re missing one or two of these components. As businesses scale, Structure and Systems often become the biggest challenges. Early on, a simple structure works—two partners in a pickup truck, making daily plans on the fly. But with over 100 employees, well-defined systems and structures become essential for efficiency and growth.” (27:16)
Key Quotes:
"I sleep at night knowing I've got a really good team working around me who helps me do that."
"Our challenge is to deliver our best while bridging the gap between customer expectations and reality—helping them understand what’s possible, what isn’t, and why."
"We aim to be the fine steakhouse of this environment—offering a premium experience that comes at a higher price but delivers exceptional quality. It’s all about ensuring it aligns with what you’re looking for."
"We must excel not just in training but also in providing consistent feedback and measuring performance effectively."
Links and Resources Mentioned:
Teed and Brown: https://teedandbrown.com/
Christopher Brown’s LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cbteedbrown/
Tyler Bloom’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-bloom-603b6243/
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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In this episode, host Tyler Bloom is joined by Alyson Johnson, a dynamic leader with over 25 years of diverse experience across the golf industry. From her early days in sports psychology to running her own agency, The Gilly Group, Alyson has carved out an impressive career in marketing, branding, communications, and sponsorships within golf.
We explore the vast opportunities available in the business of golf—opportunities that extend far beyond playing or teaching. Alyson shares valuable insights on personal branding, the challenges and triumphs women face in this male-dominated industry, and the importance of building diverse skill sets for career growth.
You’ll also learn about the fascinating world of golf course design, her perspective on creating memorable golf experiences, and her advice for women aspiring to succeed in golf careers. Plus, Alyson gives us a sneak peek at an exciting project she’ll be announcing soon.
Join us as we uncover actionable strategies and inspiring stories to help you elevate your career and leadership in golf. Let’s tee off this insightful conversation with Alyson Johnson!
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Business of Golf: Behind-the-scenes efforts in the golf industry create exceptional experiences for players and fans. Career paths extend beyond playing or teaching to include roles in law, HR, finance, and more. Women in Golf Careers: Women face challenges in a male-dominated industry, often hesitating to apply for roles unless fully qualified. Education on opportunities and strong personal branding can empower women to succeed. Personal Branding: A strong personal brand highlights professional appearance, skills, and willingness to learn. It helps others understand your value and opens doors for career growth. Construction and Course Design: The process of creating world-class golf courses involves transforming sketches into reality, with careful consideration of terrain, soil, and water. Alyson’s work has given her a deeper appreciation for this art and science.Soundbites:
“Many people, not just women, don’t fully understand the wide range of career opportunities in the golf industry. When someone says they work in golf, the assumption is often that they are either a player or an instructor. However, the golf industry offers roles in nearly every field, such as law, HR, accounting, culinary arts, and course maintenance. If people realized they could apply their unique skills to a career in golf, it could help address workforce challenges in the industry.” (24:55)
"For women, there’s an added barrier—many don’t feel welcome in golf, even as players. This lack of comfort extends to using golf for professional networking.” (27:08)
Key Quotes:
“Women are often hesitant to engage due to a fear of seeming inexperienced, whereas men tend to approach these situations with more confidence, even if they’re unsure.” “Men will apply for a role even if they meet only one out of ten qualifications, whereas women might hesitate to apply unless they meet nearly all the requirements. This hesitation often stems from a fear of appearing unqualified or not knowing enough, leading women to hold back from trying altogether.” “Golf opens so many doors and provides incredible experiences.”
“Too often, different sectors within golf work in silos, complicating things and even stepping on each other's toes. To avoid this, there needs to be more collaboration and understanding between different players in the industry.”
“Another challenge is how many players, especially women, don’t realize the range of skills they have. Players are often seen as just athletes, but they are also running businesses—handling marketing, travel, strategy, and finances.” “Personal branding also extends to your overall image. Are you professional in appearance and punctual in your commitments? Do you stay informed about industry trends? Who are you surrounding yourself with, and what projects are you working on? Sharing those projects shows the breadth of your experience and knowledge.”Links and Resources Mentioned:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyson-ramsey-johnson/
Website: https://www.gillygroup.com/
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In this episode, the Bloom Golf Partners team recaps their experience at the 2023 GCSAA Conference & Trade Show in San Diego. The team shares their insights and takeaways from the event, including what surprised them, memorable conversations, and how they see the industry evolving. They also discuss the importance of their team dynamic and how they can better communicate their services to the industry.
What You'll Learn:
Momentum in the Industry Needs to Be Captured: There’s a heightened interest in the golf industry as a career path, with growing opportunities in technology, autonomous equipment, and course infrastructure. Clubs that fail to engage with this momentum risk losing future talent. Career Growth & Relationships Matter: Witnessing colleagues progress in their careers, from assistant roles to leadership positions, was a source of pride and validation of the industry's development. Team dynamics: How the team dynamic and relationships have evolved, and the value they bring as a united front Diversity in attendees: The engagement with show attendees went beyond traditional industry roles, showcasing a broader network of professionals interested in workforce solutions. Clarifying Services is Key: Many people know what they want but don't know where to start. The team’s biggest opportunity is ensuring professionals understand how they can assist beyond just placements—through guidance, career coaching, and strategic advising.Soundbytes:
“We're in the business of helping people—whether it's connecting candidates with the right job or helping clients find the ideal candidate. Even if we can’t assist you directly, we have a broad network and can point you in the right direction.” (37:01) “I think some superintendents may underestimate the value of the national conference, but for those who attend and gain exposure to new tools, tips, and industry insights, the impact on their careers can be significant. The influence of that experience is often underrated, and sending a team to San Diego could be an invaluable investment in their growth.” (39:37)Key Quotes:
"The thing I was most surprised about was how many people whose lives we've impacted throughout the course of our time." - Mitch Rupert "I think the biggest change is going to be on our end and making sure that people understand what we do and what we're capable of doing." - Mitch Rupert "We're in the business of helping people, whether that's candidates find a job or clients, you know, finding a candidate. We also, we also are in the business of just helping people." - Mary Maloney “The industry is changing, and seeing how technology will play into staffing and job roles is something that really stood out to me.” - Ryan McNally "Many professionals know their end goal but struggle with the first step. That’s where we come in." - Mitch RupertLinks and Resources Mentioned:
Website: www.bloomgolfpartners.com
LinkedIn
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In today’s episode, we’re joined by a rising star in the turfgrass industry, Andi Meadows, Assistant Superintendent at TPC San Antonio. With a career that’s a testament to perseverance, continuous learning, and leadership, Andi takes us on a journey from crew member to assistant superintendent. Recently, she was awarded the prestigious $10,000 GCSAA Alan MacCurrach Jr. Scholarship, which will help her complete her degree in turfgrass science.
In this insightful conversation, Andi shares the lessons she’s learned along the way, including the importance of education, mentoring, and embracing technology in the ever-evolving world of golf course management. We’ll also explore her vision for the future of the industry, touching on trends like water conservation and tech-driven innovations. Whether you’re a seasoned professional or just starting out, Andi’s story is sure to inspire and offer valuable takeaways for anyone in the turfgrass profession.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
GCSAA Scholarship Award: Andi received the $10,000 Alan MacCurrach Jr. Scholarship from GCSAA and the PGA Tour to help fund her education through summer 2025. Mentoring and Leadership: Andi focuses on building strong relationships with her team, adjusting her teaching to each person’s needs. Industry Trends and Future Outlook: Andi sees technology, like autonomous mowers and GPS sprayers, growing in the industry. She believes water conservation will become a key focus for golf courses. Technology will also help attract younger professionals, with education and specialization playing a big role in career advancement. Advice for Aspiring Turf Professionals: Andi’s advice: “Your feelings are not facts” – don’t let self-doubt hold you back. Consistency and hard work will lead to recognition. Education opens doors and builds confidence. Persistence is essential in achieving long-term goals.Soundbites:
“Education has allowed me to demonstrate my dedication, my willingness to put in the hard work, and my commitment to personal growth. It’s not just about doing the fun stuff; it’s about showing I’m willing to make sacrifices—financially, personally, and professionally—to reach my goals.” (2:21)
“I've been in the turf industry since 2006, and back then, my world was very small. I didn’t realize how vast the turf community was or how interconnected everyone is. It was surprising to learn that once you put yourself out there, people are eager to embrace you, like a family.” (23:42)
Key Quotes:
“The education I received helped me develop a stronger technical vocabulary, and it also pushed me to hold myself to a higher standard.” “The hands-on experience combined with my education has made it all come together for me. When I learn something and then teach it to others, the knowledge solidifies. It’s not just about taking a class and forgetting the details—it’s about truly understanding and applying what I know.” “The scholarship is for non-traditional students, which could mean a lot of things—not just someone who looks different but someone who’s changed career paths, like me. I’ve always had an interest in turf, but I am non-traditional in several ways.” “A lot of my mindset comes from my childhood. I learned early on that nothing is handed to you, and things are going to be tough. Often, it feels like one challenge leads into the next, but in those challenges are moments of reward, growth, and self-confidence.” “Before I recognized how much opportunity there really was, my perception of the golf industry was pretty rough. Some of the courses I worked at had low budgets, broken-down equipment, questionable staff, and conditions that were less than ideal—like boards on the windows or bars, sitting on decaying porches, and bathrooms that were in deplorable shape. It felt like a job for roughneck types.”Links and Resources Mentioned:
Twitter: https://x.com/turfgrassbadass
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrienne-meadows-34b2a7139/
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In this episode of Leadership on the Links, host Tyler Bloom sits down with Gina Rizzi, a leader in sustainability and inclusion in the golf industry. Through Radius Sports Group, ARCUS Marketing, and VRA Connect, Gina drives environmental stewardship, economic impact, and inclusion.
We’ll discuss her role in developing state-level best management practice (BMP) guides and creating the first Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) report. Gina also introduces the BMP Hero platform, a groundbreaking tool simplifying BMP guide creation and helping golf courses showcase environmental leadership.
Additionally, Gina highlights her diversity efforts, such as PGA VendorMatch events and the VRA Connect platform, which helps the golf industry connect with more than 5,000 local, small, and diverse suppliers. Finally, we’ll explore her work in economic impact reporting and the engaging “TurfBusters” segment, which busts industry myths with a mix of technical insights and humor.
Let’s dive into this impactful conversation with Gina Rizzi.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Sustainability and Marketing Expertise: Gina Rizzi leads Radius Sports Group, ARCUS Marketing, and VRA Connect, focusing on sustainability, marketing, and inclusion within the golf industry. BMP Hero Platform: Recently launched tool that streamlines the creation of facility-specific best management practice (BMP) guides for golf courses. Inclusion Initiatives: Rizzi’s efforts aim to connect new communities with golf industry opportunities. Technological Advancements: Golf’s environmental and economic impact reporting is becoming increasingly sophisticated.Soundbites:
“It's really about inclusiveness—making sure anyone who wants to be part of the industry has the opportunity, increasing awareness, and giving people a fair chance.” (22:10)
"The BMP Hero platform is a game-changer, simplifying a process that used to take hours into just 30 minutes." (25:13)
Key Quotes:
“There’s a lot of focus on DEI in the news right now. Speaking personally, as a female business owner, I would never want to receive business just to check a box because I’m a woman. I want to earn it based on merit. The same applies to the workforce. I wouldn’t want to get a job just because of my gender—I want to be hired because I’m the best person for the role, period.” “The goal is that if all facilities can have their BMPs, then this is something that the RGCSA can share with legislators and hopefully prevent them from having to undergo these types of irregular kinds of rules and laws or legislation between cities." “When we talk about inclusion in the workforce, it’s about reaching out to local markets, schools, colleges, universities, and associations—connecting with people in non-traditional areas, beyond just sports management programs.”Links and Resources Mentioned:
Website: https://www.radiussportsgroup.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ginarizzi/ Email: [email protected] -
In this episode, Tyler is joined by Mitch Rupert to dive into the groundbreaking findings of the 2025 Workforce Trends in Golf Study. If you’ve ever wondered why the golf industry struggles with talent attraction or how it can position itself as a career destination, this is the episode for you.
Whether you’re a golf course leader, HR professional, or just curious about the future of golf’s workforce, you’ll leave with actionable insights to help grow the industry. Let’s get started!
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Why lack of industry awareness is the biggest hurdle for recruiting new talent. What makes Gen Z and individuals exposed to golf more likely to consider a career in the industry. The role of workplace culture, mentorship, and career development in employee retention. How competitive compensation and innovative benefits can reshape perceptions of golf industry jobs. Practical strategies to attract diverse talent and address misconceptions about careers in golf.Soundbites:
“The barriers to employment in the golf and club industries aren’t necessarily tied to the typical factors like technical skills, benefits, or compensation—areas that often dominate conversations around recruitment and retention. Instead, what stands out to me is a broader issue: a lack of awareness. It’s not a matter of unmet needs, but rather a gap in understanding.” (13:30)
“Like many tools we encounter, this serves as a conversation starter. For employers struggling to effectively communicate with their teams, board members, or key stakeholders, this resource can provide valuable insights. It helps educate them on challenges they might currently be facing, fostering a deeper understanding and more productive discussions.”
Key Quotes:
“63% of working Americans know someone who would consider a job at a golf course. So, first and foremost, it needs to be their internal teams and having some level of an employee referral program could be more than just a workplace perk. It could actually be a pretty effective hiring tool.” “Clubs investing in leadership training are actively cultivating a respectful workplace culture. By empowering department heads and team members to prioritize respect, they’re creating an environment that can have as much impact as compensation, benefits, and other key factors we’ve discussed.” “The first step to changing a problem is to recognize there is one and this feels like a good first step to that.” “Disrespectful management was the top reason cited. When engaging with people, I often reflect on this. In my experience on the front lines, the feedback is rarely about not making enough money. Instead, it’s usually about feeling unappreciated or disrespected.” “92% of working Americans would consider transitioning from a “job” to a “career” if the salary reached $70,000 or more.”Links Mentioned:
2025 Workforce Trends in Golf: https://bloomgolfpartners.com/study/
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In this episode of Leadership on the Links, Tyler Bloom is joined by Chad Allen, Golf Course Superintendent at Chatham Hills, as they discuss Chad's unique career journey, his leadership insights, and his approach to evolving the golf course management industry. He was recently awarded the Emerging Leader Award by GCSAA.
Chad shares how his non-traditional path, which started in substance abuse counseling, has shaped his leadership style and approach to staff empowerment, mentorship, and technology in golf course management.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Non-traditional career journey: Chad’s shift from substance abuse counseling to golf course management highlights the industry’s openness to individuals with diverse backgrounds.
Leadership practices: Chad emphasizes the importance of open communication, staff empowerment, and bridging the gap between front- and back-of-house teams.
Career growth: Networking, mentorship, and engaging in industry programs are vital for continual professional development in golf course management.
Technology integration: Chad utilizes tools like GS3 technology to enhance course conditions and demonstrate professionalism to members through data-driven approaches.
Soundbites:
“Many of us are passive when it comes to putting ourselves out there and showcasing what our teams are accomplishing. I’m not a big "me" person; I prefer "we" and "us." I have to remind myself of that because, honestly, I wouldn’t be where I am without my team. But I also recognize that I need to be my own spokesman.” (13:59)
“I think that’s something that’s changing in the industry—moving away from the old “trade secrets” mentality. It’s about focusing on a community of like-minded people who are willing to help one another grow.” (28:46)
Key Quotes:
“While there are hierarchies and chains of command that need to be respected, creating an environment where everyone is comfortable is key. When that’s in place, people can do their jobs without the stress of unnecessary tension.”
“Leadership for me has been shaped by everything I’ve learned through training, my brother’s mentorship, and learning from those who lead by example.”
“Step outside of your comfort zone. You have to do it consistently. Ask questions, take notes, and don’t let anything deter you from what you're trying to accomplish.”
“I’m big on networking and sharing knowledge. I’m an open book—I don’t hide anything. If someone wants to know about my fertility program, I’ll send it over. What matters to me is fostering an open network where people can share information, make mistakes, and learn from each other.”
Links and Resources Mentioned:
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chad-allen-659973226/
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Episode Overview
In this episode of Leadership on the Links, we sit down with Jeff White, CGCS, outgoing President of the GCSAA (Golf Course Superintendents Association of America). Jeff shares his journey from local chapter leadership to the national stage, offering insights into industry leadership, workforce development, environmental advocacy, and the future of golf course management.Jeff reflects on his experiences, challenges, and the lessons he's learned while representing golf course superintendents worldwide.
Listeners will learn:
Leadership Growth: Transitioning to national leadership roles requires adaptability, strong support, and offers significant professional development. Member Engagement: Clearer storytelling and in-person experiences are key to showcasing GCSAA's value and engaging members. Workforce Development: Raising career awareness and offering dual pathways (education and training) are critical for attracting new talent. Environmental Stewardship: Expanding BMP adoption and active policy participation protect the industry's future. Global & Post-Leadership Insights: International experiences broaden perspectives, while planning and mentorship ease transitions after leadership roles.Soundbytes:
"It's been an awesome ride. It’s been everything I thought it would be and more. When I say 'more,' I mean managing the balancing act of scheduling everything—family, work, GCSA, and so on. As you progress from being a junior board member to higher levels, you build a foundation. It’s similar to serving on a local committee or task group; you think you’re prepared for the next step, but once you get there, you realize there’s a steep learning curve. Representing 20,000 members is an incredible responsibility, and I’ve grown so much along the way." (0:12)
"One lesson I’ve learned throughout my career is to be yourself—there’s only one 'you.' I’ve also come to value listening as a skill. Communication is a two-way street. Great leaders know how to listen, really listen, and distill everyone’s thoughts into something cohesive. I’ve admired those who can wrap up a discussion with a single sentence that brings people together.” (38:06-40:00)
Quotes:
"Listening isn’t just about hearing words—it’s about understanding the message. That’s an area where I’m still growing, but I’ve seen how valuable it is for solving tough conversations and holding a group together."
"I think the Career Pathways initiative is on a solid upward trajectory. It's exciting because it represents the here and now, and I’ve seen a lot of initiatives evolve over my time on the board. This one still has room to grow—it’s not in its infancy, but it hasn’t fully matured either. It’s something that will always evolve.
“I’m passionate about the BMPs (Best Management Practices). It’s not a question of 'if' but 'when' these will become essential. Many people don’t understand BMPs yet, but they’re incredibly versatile tools. Whether you use them for internal purposes, like designing a wash station, or for outward-facing goals, like advocacy with local or national governments, they provide tremendous value.
"We need more people to embrace BMPs proactively instead of reactively. I’ve seen other countries where regulations were imposed because they weren’t at the table during discussions. Collectively, we’re working to protect the game, the environment, and our industry. Progress since 2020 has been slower than I’d like, but we’re moving in the right direction."
Links Mentioned in this Episode:
GCSAA: www.gcsaa.org Tyler Bloom Consulting: www.tylerbloomconsulting.com X (formerly Twitter): @white70 LinkedIn: Jeff White, CGCS -
In this episode of Leadership on the Links, we welcome Jay Karen, CEO of the National Golf
Course Owners Association (NGCOA), to dive into the pressing trends and challenges shaping
the golf industry today. With over 28 years of experience in association management and a
mission to champion golf course owners and operators, Jay shares his unique perspectives on
workforce development, emerging trends, and the industry's advocacy efforts.Join us as we uncover strategies to navigate workforce challenges, explore revenue
opportunities from alternative forms of play, and discuss the importance of advocacy in securing the future of golf.What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Workforce Challenges and Opportunities: The golf industry must adapt to changing
labor market dynamics by improving workplace culture and modernizing employment
practices. Alternative/additive forms of play like simulators and night golf offer exciting revenue
opportunities but come with operational challenges. Post-pandemic, sustained demand for golf has led to more aggressive pricing
strategies and a shift toward "offense" in business planning. Despite positive performance metrics, advocacy remains critical to address legislative
and regulatory challenges facing the industry. A coordinated, industry-wide effort on workforce development and recruitment,
beyond individual associations' efforts is required to move the needle.Soundbites:
"We have 15,000 small businesses around this country that are robust small businesses.
They're in every community in America, and we get overlooked in some way." "We rested on the laurels of love of the game, and we're seeing, generationally now, two generations later, honestly, that the value system of people that want to work today is not the same as what it was 30, 40, 50 years ago."Quotes:
"We've completely changed, the high demand has caused a complete mental shift
towards what can I do with my business, and let me see what's possible with it instead of
playing defense, we're on offense." "We have an entire television channel dedicated to our game. We have hundreds of millions, and if you look at the NGF research of how many people engage with the game in some way, as a fan, I might watch a clip of the Masters or Claygolf or I go to top, whatever." "If we want better people that are trained, better prepared people into the golf industry, we got to compete." "We get to have an enormous impact on an entire industry from one little office, and that's pretty special." "We're on offense. And four and a half years, almost five years into this now, we're still playing offense. And as business owners operators, holy cow, that is what you want to do."Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
National Golf Course Owners Association (NGCOA): Website Connect with Jay Karen on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaykaren/ -
In this special year-end episode of Leadership on the Links, host Tyler Bloom and his team take a moment to reflect on their growth, experiences, and the milestones they've reached throughout the year. Each team member shares insights into their personal and professional development, the evolution of their roles, and the lessons they've learned along the way.
Throughout the episode, Tyler and his team also discuss the importance of their work in recruitment, particularly within the competitive golf industry. The team reflects on the challenges and strategies involved in hiring top talent, emphasizing the importance of communication, open-mindedness, and adaptability throughout the recruitment process. They also stress the need for ongoing support and career development for candidates, recognizing that relationships go beyond just the hiring process.
The team takes pride in their achievements this year, reflecting on the pride they take in helping clients build strong teams and the long-term relationships they've cultivated. As they look forward to the future, they express excitement for expanding their capabilities and continuing to create opportunities for growth within the industry.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Challenges and Strategies in Recruitment: The team discusses the competitive landscape of the golf industry and how they’ve adapted their approach to meet evolving needs in recruitment.
The Importance of Teamwork and Communication: How building strong internal relationships and open communication channels contribute to success in recruitment.
Open-Mindedness and Adaptability: The speakers highlight the need for flexibility and a willingness to consider diverse candidates, which has been key to their success this year.
Ongoing Career Development: The team stresses the importance of continuous support and career development for candidates to ensure long-term success and satisfaction.
Looking Forward: Reflections on the team's achievements and aspirations for expanding their impact in the industry.
Recruitment Success Through Teamwork: Effective recruitment within the competitive golf industry relies heavily on strong teamwork, clear communication, and adaptability to meet both client and candidate needs.
Quotes:
"A parachute is better when it's open."
"You're hiring a person, not a resume."
"You can't be afraid to tell your story."
“Not every effort yields immediate results, especially in recruiting. Adapting strategies and remaining persistent are crucial.”
Links Mentioned in this Episode:
Tyler Bloom Consulting: www.tylerbloomconsulting.com -
In this episode of Leadership on the Links, Tyler sits down with Nick Mazzella, founder of The Mazzella Partnership and a leading expert in golf course project management and renovations. Nick shares his journey, from managing small-scale public projects to working with historic venues preparing for major championships. With his deep industry knowledge, Nick discusses the art of balancing large-scale transformations with smaller, strategic improvements that elevate a course without breaking the bank.
You’ll hear about Nick’s favorite tools and technology, his dream projects, and why he believes relationships are at the heart of success in the golf business. This conversation is packed with practical insights and thoughtful reflections, making it a must-listen for anyone passionate about golf course design, management, or leadership.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Big vs. Small Projects: How Nick approaches large-scale renovations and smaller, budget-conscious improvements.
Client Relationships: Why understanding client needs and building strong connections drive successful outcomes.
The Role of Technology: A deep dive into the Trimble Catalyst GPS tool and its impact on field efficiency and cost estimation.
Industry Trends: Nick’s perspective on the exciting opportunities in the current golf course design and renovation market.
Leadership Insights: The importance of team-building, mentoring, and fostering relationships within the golf industry.
Soundbites:
"There's no replacement for actual time in the field and understanding what it takes to make these things happen." (2:46)
"Project management is a science. The vertical [construction] world is completely different than golf. And I'm glad I'm on the golf side." (17:11)
Key Quotes:
“There’s nothing quite like the excitement of working on a historic venue with a major championship on the horizon.”
“Success in this industry is about the people—the relationships you build and the passion you share for the game.”
“Whether it’s an $8 per square foot renovation or a $30 million project, the goal is always to deliver value and quality for the client.”
Links and Resources Mentioned:
The Mazzella Partnership: www.mazellapartnership.com
Nick Mazzella LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-mazzella-a6938a13/
Tyler Bloom’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-bloom-603b6243/
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In this episode, Tyler sits down with style experts Eric and Lisa to discuss the importance of personal style and how it can elevate your professional image. Eric and Lisa share their journey of combining their talents in fashion and hair design to help clients feel confident and polished.
They dive into common misconceptions about style, the benefits of a closet purge and capsule wardrobe, and practical tips for busy professionals to balance comfort and sophistication. Eric and Lisa also share their most rewarding client experiences and how personal style can boost self-esteem.
Listeners will learn:
Why personal style matters beyond just looking good How to simplify the process of building a versatile wardrobe Quick wins to elevate your professional image without a complete overhaul Where to connect with Eric and Lisa for a complimentary style evaluationThis conversation is a must-listen for anyone looking to level up their personal brand and make a lasting impression. Tune in to hear how personal style can be a powerful tool in your professional development.
Soundbytes:
"First impressions matter—you only get one chance to make a good one. Even if people are familiar with who you are, if they haven’t met you in person yet, how you present yourself when you walk into a room speaks volumes. Your energy and confidence might be there, but if your outfit—say, jeans and a t-shirt or a casual golf polo—doesn’t quite align with expectations, it could create a disconnect. People might subconsciously think, Hmm, I expected them to be dressed differently. Those snap judgments, however unfair, are something we all make." (19:44)
"Only keep pieces that you love and make you feel good and elevated." (32:09-32:22)
Quotes:
"Personal styling is so much more than just clothes. It's helping people overcome obstacles, mental roadblocks, they didn't even potentially even know what they had.""Many people say, Oh, I’m not into style; it’s not my thing. But the reality is, we all wear clothes every single day, so it makes sense to choose outfits that make us feel comfortable and confident. Whether you’re running errands at the grocery store or going out to dinner with your significant other, your clothing should help you feel at ease and project confidence in your presence."
Links Mentioned in this Podcast:Erlise Hair and Wardrobe Consulting - https://www.erlise.com
Tyler Bloom Consulting: https://tylerbloomconsulting.com/
Connect with Eric Saranto - https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-saranto-a61a93303/
Connect with Lisa Smith: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-smith-85983868/
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In this episode of Leadership on the Links, host Tyler Bloom sits down with Scott Pavalko, the Superintendent at Castle Pines Golf Club, as he shares his journey from his early days in Ohio to leading at iconic courses like Muirfield Village and Cog Hill. Scott discusses the unique challenges of transitioning to Castle Pines, managing turf in diverse climates, and his commitment to continuous improvement in golf course management.
Scott offers valuable lessons on leadership, focusing on the importance of adaptability, resilience, and relationship-building. He reflects on his own leadership evolution and how mentorship, strategic decision-making, and clear communication have been integral to his success. You’ll also hear about the balance of managing high expectations from both staff and members, while prioritizing family and work-life balance.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
Turf Management Strategies: Key considerations for navigating climate challenges and managing turf in different environments. Continued Growth: The significance of ongoing learning and making incremental improvements to elevate the member experience. Being Adaptable: How to lead through change, adapt to new challenges, and manage high-stakes decisions with clarity and confidence. Leadership Evolution: The role of mentorship, relationship-building, and strategic thinking in long-term career success. Work-Life Balance: Insights into managing a demanding career while maintaining resilience and prioritizing family life.Soundbytes:
"I was very naive as to kind of what the turf industry was." (5:21 - 5:25)
"My dad's saying was, you kill him with kindness, and that was kind of his motif." (40:01)Quotes:
"I think it's just listening and being willing to learn. Not everything's the same, but the fundamentals are.""I think it's just the way I'm wired and it's what I love about the job is just always trying to find ways to get better. And then if we can't find ways to get better, then let's try to find ways to keep doing what we're doing more efficiently or find ways to just give people better balance in life or whatever it may be."
"He's the Michael Jordan of Superintendents, and he's the most humble person you will find."
"I could not be more proud of how these guys responded and it was really incredible to see. It wasn't without its hiccups. I mean, everybody invested a lot of time and probably some of them to the detriment of their personal life, the sacrifice that was put forth to put this tournament on. Which happens every week on the PGA Tour."
Links Mentioned in this Podcast:Tyler Bloom Consulting: https://tylerbloomconsulting.com/
Connect with Scott on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-pavalko-310a8989/ -
In this episode, host Tyler Bloom sits down with Bill Langley, the General Manager of The Club at Quail Ridge, to discuss Langley's extensive career in the club management industry. Langley shares his journey, from opening and transitioning clubs to managing large-scale resort and development projects over the past 30 years.
Langley emphasizes the importance of building strong relationships and camaraderie within the club management community. He shares insights on effectively managing up (with the board), down (with department heads), and across (with other directors) to align the team and drive success.
The conversation also covers Langley's strategies for engaging with golf course superintendents and committees, including the value of hands-on site visits and a calm, rational approach to navigating high-stress situations. Langley stresses the need for superintendents to develop strong presentation and communication skills to effectively advocate for their needs.
Throughout the discussion, Langley's passion for the club management industry shines through, as he reflects on the unique opportunities for mentorship, collaboration, and professional growth that the field provides. His advice to his younger self and others aspiring to leadership roles underscores the importance of maintaining composure, building connections, and embracing the dynamic nature of the business.
This episode offers valuable insights for club managers, superintendents, and anyone interested in the inner workings and camaraderie of the private club industry.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
How to attract young professionals: Engaging and retaining young professionals in the club industry is a challenge that requires initiatives like meet and greets, continuing education, work-life balance, stability, and benefits are important factors in attracting and retaining talent.
General managers play a crucial role in managing up, down, and sideways, and effective communication is key.
Member relations: Building relationships, remaining calm, listening intently during stressful situations, and networking with stakeholders is essential for success in the industry.
The camaraderie and networking opportunities in the club industry are valuable and can lead to lifelong friendships.
Superintendent Insights: Visibility and improving communication are key skills for superintendents to develop with stakeholders.
Soundbytes:
"Silence is a tactic." (12:92 seconds)
"The first person that gets mad loses." (14:01 seconds)
"Don't be a shrinking violet." (27:08)
Key Quotes:
"Our challenge is how do we get them in? How do we get them engaged and how do we keep them engaged?"
"You're never going to have to work an overnight shift here in the club industry. You're not going to be at risk of getting transferred from one hotel to another."
"Your success in this industry doesn't have to be a linear pathway."
Links and Resources Mentioned:
Bill Langley’s LinkedIn Profile: LinkedIn
Tyler Bloom’s LinkedIn Profile: LinkedIn
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Many professionals find themselves at a career crossroads, contemplating a career change or transition. Whether it's moving from a superintendent role to a sales/marketing position, or exploring opportunities beyond the golf course, these transitions can be both exciting and daunting.
Eric Snelsire, a seasoned veteran of the golf industry, has experienced his fair share of career pivots. From his early days as an assistant superintendent at prestigious clubs like Oakmont Country Club, to becoming a superintendent at facilities like The Links at Lighthouse Sound, and eventually transitioning into sales and marketing roles, Eric has navigated the challenges and opportunities that come with changing paths.
For those considering a career transition in the golf industry, Eric's story serves as a testament to the importance of self-reflection, skill development, and a willingness to embrace new challenges. By approaching these transitions with a positive mindset and a commitment to continuous learning, golf professionals can unlock new opportunities and find fulfillment in their evolving careers.
Transitioning to Sales
One of the primary challenges Eric faced during his transition was the perceived stigma associated with moving from the superintendent role to a sales position. "I would say that there's a little bit of an ego first for me having the background that I had of working at US Open Golf courses that there was almost a negative connotation of transitioning into sales like I had given up in my career, so to speak," he shared.
This perception, unfortunately, is not uncommon in the industry, as some may view a move away from the golf course as a step back or a lack of dedication. However, Eric was quick to dispel this notion, emphasizing the valuable skills and experiences he gained as a superintendent that ultimately prepared him for success in his new role.
Developing New Skills
Another significant challenge Eric encountered was the need to develop new skill sets beyond agronomy. As a superintendent, the focus is often on maintaining the golf course to the highest standards, but as Eric noted, "Superintendents need to kind of take that leap of faith and say, I'm really a leader in this organization or club that I need to be at the table. And if you fear confrontation or those situations, just understand that there are going to be decisions made that are going to impact you that you're not going to have a say."
This shift in mindset, from solely focusing on the golf course to becoming a strategic business partner, can be a difficult transition for some. However, Eric emphasizes the importance of self-evaluation, continuous education, and developing leadership skills to ensure a successful career transition.
Despite the challenges, Eric's career journey also highlights the strengths and opportunities that can come with a career change. His diverse experience, from working at elite clubs to public facilities, has given him a unique perspective that he now leverages in his sales and marketing role.
Soundbytes:
“There's a place for everybody. If being at the elite clubs, like, early part of my career was something that you desire, you know, there's sacrifice to be made like that." (8:35-8:45)
"Superintendents need to kind of take that leap of faith and say, I'm really a leader in this organization or club that I need to be at the table. And if you fear confrontation or those situations, just understand that there are going to be decisions made that are going to impact you that you're not going to have a say." (25:40)
Quotes:
"When your crew knows their work isn’t just about maintaining grass, but about creating a memorable experience, that’s when you see real pride and commitment."
"It's not just about a well-groomed course; it's about understanding how every maintenance decision impacts the playability. If you want a course that meets the needs of every golfer, you have to plan every detail with that in mind."
"Being part of our local GCSAA chapter isn’t just networking; it’s about sharing challenges and solutions with people who are in the same trenches. It’s invaluable for growth and camaraderie."
"Every course has its own challenges, but when you work your way up, you learn to adapt to different budgets, expectations, and standards. The fundamentals don’t change; it’s just a matter of raising the bar."
"If you’re starting out, focus on mastering the basics of agronomy, build your network, and remember that your reputation is everything in this industry." -
In this episode, Tyler talks with Matthew Shaffer, a renowned former golf course superintendent, about his career path and the lessons he's learned from various roles, including at high-profile clubs like Merion Golf Club and Augusta National, and humble beginnings.
He credits his time at Hershey Food Corporation for shifting his perspective. At Hershey, he learned to see a golf course as a business asset rather than merely a space to protect. This exposure, combined with the mentorship of legendary superintendent Paul Latshaw Sr., gave him a "recipe for success."
Passionate about the profession, he describes his dedication and innovation to growing grass, mentoring, and equipment as essential to his role.
Developing a team in today’s environment
Given the shortage of turf graduates, clubs must consider candidates from diverse educational backgrounds, such as sciences or teaching, for positions traditionally held by turf specialists. He emphasizes that creativity and adaptability can make non-traditional candidates strong assets.
During his time at Merion, Shaffer described the value of strong mentorship in creating a positive reputation and providing a supportive environment that allows team members to lead, make mistakes, and learn through correction.
Shaffer advises clubs to focus on cultivating their own talent, acknowledging that good team members may eventually leave but can contribute significantly in the meantime. He shares examples of successful mentors, such as Duane Schell, who excelled at developing people despite limited resources.
The importance of communication, work-life balance, and leadership will be critical to retaining and developing today's assistants. Shaffer insisted on communication skills, even sending his team members to Dale Carnegie courses, despite their reluctance. Noting that while each person had a unique style—some stoic, others chatty—all shared qualities of resilience, focus, and a commitment to learning through their mistakes.
Understanding club culture and respect for everyone's roles
Maintaining an adaptable skills and clear communication with stakeholders given evolving club expectations, like the shift from a "brown and firm" aesthetic to "green and fast."
During the hiring process for superintendents, it’s crucial to be transparent, helping the club understand its role in supporting the superintendent, rather than placing all responsibility on them. Shaffer advocates for educating Green Committees and hiring parties on resource limitations, suggesting that clubs often need to reassess their own priorities and funding distribution to achieve desired outcomes.
He acknowledges the challenges that General Managers (GMs) face and underscores the value of understanding their roles, noting that success in golf course management relies on a strong relationship between the superintendent, GM, and golf pro—a "three-legged stool" essential for stability.
Strong communicators tend to navigate challenges better and foster trust with members and the General Manager around maintenance practices.
Whether you’re a seasoned professional or just starting out, this episode offers actionable takeaways on leadership, innovation, and navigating the challenges of the golf course industry.
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In this episode, we’re diving into the power of personal branding—not just as a tool for visibility, but as a journey in personal development with Rachel Gogos, owner of BrandID. Rachel shares her career journey, from starting in higher education and working at the United Nations to launching her agency focused on personal branding and business strategy.
The importance of self-discovery in personal branding
Rachel shares when we truly understand our strengths, vision, and how we want to be perceived, we’re better equipped to attract the right opportunities and have a greater impact on our audience.
Building a personal brand isn’t just about creating visuals or a website. It starts with self-discovery. Doing the inner work helps us to communicate who we are and what we stand for with authenticity and confidence.
Starting with a clear sense of mission and the legacy you want to leave behind. This could be a game-changer for superintendents aiming to elevate their career, as it aligns their daily actions with a bigger purpose and helps others understand their unique value.
360-degree approach to gain valuable insights
Using a 360-degree assessment allows individuals to see themselves from others' perspectives. This technique could help superintendents understand the strengths others see in them that they might overlook, which could be particularly helpful in interviews or networking.
Focusing on strengths rather than weaknesses can accelerate growth. Superintendents, often perfectionists by nature, could benefit from identifying what they naturally excel at and finding ways to use those skills to differentiate themselves.
Personal branding doesn’t have to be boastful
In fact, sharing expertise and experiences humbly is a powerful way to build credibility without feeling overly promotional. Superintendents can educate and inspire through their personal brand, which would naturally attract more opportunities and align with their authentic selves.
Having a clear, authentic intention in one’s messaging makes a difference. For leaders who genuinely want to contribute positively to the industry, it’s important to keep promoting these values without worry. It resonates, as Rachel said, and reinforces trust with your audience.
From using websites and visuals to create a compelling experience to empowering employees as brand ambassadors, strong branding is as important internally as it is externally. Plus, we’ll touch on trends in brand-building, like using video, organic social media, and focusing on educational, inspirational content rather than constant selling.
By the end of this episode, you’ll have a roadmap to building a personal brand that not only attracts your ideal clients but also brings clarity to your purpose, team and impact—enhancing your personal and professional life. Let’s get started!
Soundbytes
"As leaders or business owners, we can only build our team and culture as much as we ourselves have grown. To create winning teams, we need to keep developing personally, whether we own the company or not." (14:59-16:00)
"Building a personal brand isn’t about creating a facade—it’s about understanding who you truly are, the reputation you hold, and the qualities people associate with you, then consistently showing up as that person in all areas of your life." (22:42-23:05)
Quotes
I truly believe that when things come together easily, it’s a sign that our path is being guided—a green light from God to move in that direction."
"We can only grow our team and culture as far as we've grown ourselves. If we want to keep building winning teams, whether we own the company or not, we must continue investing in our personal growth."
"The more we work in our strengths, the more fulfilled and joyful we feel day to day. Recognizing our weaknesses helps us round out our team by placing the right people in roles where we may not excel."
"This isn't about crafting an image or results; it’s about clarifying who you are at your core—your reputation and the qualities others associate with you—and showing up consistently across all areas of your life."
"Share content under your personal brand, even if you work for an organization, because people want to connect with people. We’ve seen this firsthand—our personal posts generate far higher engagement than those on our business page."
Links Mentioned in This Episode:
Tyler Bloom Consulting: https://tylerbloomconsulting.com/
Connect with Rachel Gogos on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelgogos/
BrandID: https://thebrandid.com
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In this episode, we sit down with Jon Urbanski, an accomplished golf course superintendent, to discuss his impressive career journey, insights on team culture and leadership, and his unique experience hosting the 2022 BMW Championship at Wilmington Country Club.
Jon shares how he went from considering a career as a math teacher to finding his passion in the golf industry. We discuss his journey from a summer crew member to one of the industry's top superintendents, highlighting his passion, service and commitment to building a strong team.
Building Team Culture
He reflects on the importance of building a positive team culture by fostering open communication, offering growth opportunities, and supporting work-life balance. Jon's leadership approach focuses on being a coach and cheerleader to his team, creating an environment where everyone can thrive.
Foster open communication and build genuine connections to create a supportive team culture.Encourage work-life balance and provide growth opportunities, such as conferences, to boost team loyalty and inspire continuous development.
A Career Highlight
Hosting a major event like the BMW Championship was a career highlight, where he experienced the payoff of years of preparation alongside his team and volunteers. He emphasizes how rewarding it was to involve his family in the week’s events and the pride he felt as his club and community embraced the tournament.
Jon also dives into his industry involvement, including his role as past president of the Philadelphia Association of Golf Course Superintendents. He advocates for more superintendent presence at golf events and highlights the value of networking, volunteering, and giving back to the industry.
Tune in to hear Jon’s inspiring story, his thoughtful approach to leadership, and what’s next as he continues to make an impact on the golf industry!
Soundbytes
"I firmly believe that some of the best moments for building team success happen in those hours and minutes before or after the workday, when we're just sitting around in the conference room and having casual conversations. Those moments are crucial for creating team cohesion and solidarity. But I also believe in encouraging everyone to get out, enjoy themselves, and spend time with their families. The golf course will still be here."01:30
"I think it really comes down to seeing others succeed. When people thrive in our program here, it’s a win for Wilmington Country Club and strengthens our future. This success helps us recruit new talent, as we want people to come here, get trained, and eventually move on to their own roles—whether as superintendents, in horticulture, or in arboriculture. We truly strive to support that growth." 11:40
Quotes
"Timing is everything; it's important to approach feedback thoughtfully, asking questions to understand someone’s thought process rather than jumping right in."
"I admire those who volunteer nationally with organizations like GCSAA or PGA; they dedicate so much time away from work and family to support our industry."
"It's fantastic to see golf professionals, superintendents, and managers featured on broadcasts—our service industry deserves that spotlight."
"I find social media incredibly useful, especially 'Turf Twitter,' for tips and team discussions—used correctly, it’s a valuable tool."
Links Mentioned in This Episode:
Tyler Bloom Consulting: https://tylerbloomconsulting.com/
Connect with Jon Urbanski on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-urbanski-2a59401a/
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In this episode, Brian Chapin shares insights from his unique career journey from golf course superintendent to general manager (GM) during the pandemic, and eventually to VP at LaBar Golf, where he joined in 2022.
His path offers a valuable perspective on moving from hands-on turf management to overseeing broader club operations, providing a holistic view of club success.
Emphasizing career development, Brian advises superintendents to stay open to non-traditional roles, like GM, as the entire club experience is critical to a golf course's long-term success.
Shifting Gears
LaBar Golf, originally founded in 2012 as a renovation company, expanded significantly during the pandemic and now offers irrigation, safety, and fleet management services. Brian highlights how LaBar Golf’s commitment to attracting and retaining top talent is driven by adapting to career aspirations and fostering growth.
He notes a shift in the industry, with clubs investing more in infrastructure like drainage and irrigation systems for sustainability rather than aesthetic updates.
Brian also discusses the rewarding but challenging nature of construction roles, with extensive travel being a consideration. Going forward, LaBar Golf aims to spotlight opportunities in golf construction and support superintendents pursuing career growth.
Soundbytes:
"I challenge anyone to identify a top 20 or top 30 club, or even the top two or three in any given state, where the golf course is outstanding but the rest of the operation is poor. Don’t be that club." 2:01
"You must prioritize what's best for the golf course every day. For instance, when a tournament is scheduled and we receive two inches of rain, restricting carts is never a popular decision, but it’s often the right one. This skill set translates well to being a general manager. In contrast, other positions within the club may focus heavily on keeping the membership happy, which can make them uncomfortable with making difficult decisions." 14:00
Quotes
"Superintendents have such great skill sets for leadership, they're forced to be macro to think macro in micro, but like they're they to blend that really well."
"We’ve shifted our perspective, in part due to your guidance and leadership, to better understand how to attract and retain top talent. Ultimately, that's the name of the game for any business: how to attract the best people."
"We’re willing to adapt because a cookie-cutter approach to recruiting, retention, and development is a guaranteed way to fail. You need to meet people where they are, be creative, and think of different ways to leverage various skill sets and availability. It's essential not to get stuck on the notion that someone is a failure just because they're not here for two or more years."
Links Mentioned in This Episode:
Tyler Bloom Consulting: https://tylerbloomconsulting.com/
LaBar Golf: https://labargolfrenovations.com
Connect with Brian Chapin on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-chapin-708079184/
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