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Welcome to It Was What It Was.
As Barcelona and Inter prepare to face off once again in this year’s Champions League semi-final, we look back at the original - a tie that shaped modern football.
Pep Guardiola vs. José Mourinho. All-out attack vs. tactical defiance. Ideology, rivalry - maybe even good vs. evil?
Fifteen years ago, Pep’s all-conquering Barcelona met Mourinho’s Inter Milan in a Champions League semi-final that didn’t just decide who reached the final - it helped define a footballing era.
In Part One, Rob and Jonathan set the scene: how Mourinho’s Inter came to challenge the most dominant team in the world, the tactics he used, the battles he fought in Italy, and how both sides arrived at this collision point chasing domestic and European glory.
Part Two drops Friday, where Rob and Jonathan break down the epic semi-final itself.
00:00 Barcelona's Football Perfection
01:48 Mourinho vs. Guardiola: A Rivalry Begins
02:47 The Dark Side of Mourinho
03:25 Star Wars Analogies and Football Tactics
06:53 Mourinho's Seven-Point Plan
07:45 Mourinho's Philosophy and Evolution
08:43 Mourinho's Journey to Inter Milan
09:58 Cultural Expectations and Pragmatic Football
12:23 Mourinho's Press Conference Antics
13:44 Mourinho's Linguistic Brilliance
14:49 Mourinho's Training Philosophy
20:04 Key Matches and Tactical Shifts
21:16 Mourinho's First Season at Inter
22:27 Transfer Drama: Stars on the Move
23:51 Barcelona's Dominance and Challenges
26:40 Inter's Journey to the Semifinals
28:57 Mourinho's Tactical Mastery
32:29 Controversies and Confrontations
40:24 The Road to the Semifinals
43:57 Setting the Stage for the Epic Semifinal
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was. It's time for part two of our look at the unexpected role a horse would play in the controversial takeover of Manchester United by the Glazer family.
The episode covers the period of the Glazer acquisition, the impact of their ownership, and the financial manoeuvres that transformed the club.
From Alex Ferguson's complicated relationship with the Glazers to the missed opportunities and recruitment challenges that followed, this episode gives an in-depth look at how Manchester United's fate was sealed - and the horse that might have started it all!
00:00 The Decline of Manchester United: A 20-Year Journey
00:20 Introduction to the Football History Podcast
00:48 The Gibraltar Incident and Its Fallout
01:26 The Glazers' Takeover: A Turning Point
02:24 The Financial Strategy of the Glazers
02:54 The Early Signs of Trouble
03:58 The Glazers' Background and Business Practices
04:48 The Impact of Global Capital on Football
06:24 The Glazers' Vision and Strategy
08:43 The Financial Mechanics of the Takeover
10:41 The Role of Debt in Modern Football
11:54 The Glazers' Financial Maneuvering
14:32 The Aftermath and Long-Term Consequences
16:15 The Glazers' Legacy and Future Implications
18:26 The Financial Crisis and Its Impact on Football
20:57 The Leveraged Buyout Explained
22:52 The Final Stages of the Takeover
30:47 The Glazer Takeover and Initial Success
31:17 Fan Protests and Opposition
34:52 Financial Strain and Missed Opportunities
37:32 The Role of Ed Woodward
43:18 Transfer Market Failures
46:15 Managerial Missteps
53:37 The Glazers' Disconnect and Conclusion
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Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.
In today's episode, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by journalist David Walsh to explore how the modern fortunes of Manchester United are intertwined with one of the greatest racehorses in history.
This is the extraordinary story of Rock of Gibraltar, the famed racehorse part-owned by Sir Alex Ferguson - and how his connections and relationships with John Magnier, and JP McManus would ultimately impact the Glazers' takeover of Manchester United.
David Walsh shares insider details from his investigative work on the story, making this one of the most fascinating sports sagas of recent times.
Tune in on Friday for part two, and the implications of the Glazers' takeover - and Manchester United's decline.
00:00 The Tale of the Lost Kingdom
00:25 Introduction to the Podcast and Special Guest
00:35 The Story of Rock of Gibraltar
01:25 David Walsh's Insights
02:28 The Connection Between Sir Alex Ferguson and John Magner
07:36 The Rise of Rock of Gibraltar
17:21 The Dispute Over Ownership
19:26 The Financial Implications
29:04 Ownership Dispute and Legal Battle
29:52 High Court Drama and Stakeholder Tensions
30:50 Public Fallout and Media Frenzy
34:02 Settlement and Aftermath
38:39 The Glazers' Takeover
41:35 Reflecting on Missed Opportunities
49:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Welcome to It Was What It Was for part two of our interview with Brendan Batson, a trailblazer in English football.
Brendon tells Jonathan and Rob about his impactful time at West Bromwich Albion as part of the iconic 'Three Degrees' with Cyrille Regis and Laurie Cunningham.
We discuss his teammates, the tragic losses and his work to combat racism. Brendon also gives us an insight into the personal impact of his former manager Ron Atkinson's notorious comments on live television.
00:00 Introduction and Overview
01:07 Brendan Batson's Early Career and Challenges
03:00 The China Tour Experience
06:20 The Three Degrees Phenomenon
12:32 Impact and Legacy of Black Players
18:37 Knee Injury and Career Transition
20:10 Coaching Courses and Philosophies
24:24 The Evolution of a Coaching Philosophy
24:42 The One-Size-Fits-All Approach
25:50 Player Welfare and Career Transitions
27:59 Tragic Losses and Their Impact
28:38 The Legacy of Laurie Cunningham
32:33 Racism in Football: A Personal Betrayal
38:20 The Complexity of Racism in Football
41:21 The Fight Against Racism: Past and Present
46:17 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This week Jonathan and Rob welcome special guest Brendan Batson, a former Arsenal, Cambridge, and West Brom player - who made a significant impact on British social and footballing history.
Part one focuses on Batson's early life in Grenada and Trinidad, his challenges adapting to the British climate in the 1960s, and becoming Arsenal's first black player.
Join us for part two on Friday where Brendan recalls his time at West Brom - and the birth of the famous 'Three Degrees'.
00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement
01:21 Brendan Batson's Early Life and Migration to England
03:18 Adapting to Life in England and Discovering Football
06:34 Challenges and Racism in Early Years
11:48 The Windrush Generation and Social Context
14:48 Racism in Football and the National Front
19:13 Conclusion of Part One
20:00 Scouted by Arsenal: The Beginning of a Football Journey
21:23 Challenges and Triumphs: Early Arsenal Days
22:38 Facing Racism: The Harsh Realities of the 60s and 70s
25:06 Breaking Barriers: Becoming Arsenal's First Black Player
27:44 Struggles with Racism on the Field
31:36 Guidance and Growth: Learning to Cope
34:32 Career Progression: From Arsenal to Cambridge and Beyond
36:33 Ron Atkinson's Influence: A Turning Point
37:41 Conclusion: Reflecting on a Pioneering Career
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, and part two of our look at Cameroon’s extraordinary journey at the 1990 World Cup.
With their stunning opening victory against defending champions Argentina and making history as the first African team to reach the quarter-finals, Cameroon’s story is one of resilience, brilliance, and pure football magic.
Facing England in a gripping quarter-final showdown against stars like Paul Gascoigne and Gary Lineker, the Indomitable Lions captivated the world in one of the World Cup’s greatest underdog stories.
If you enjoyed the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode.
00:00 Introduction and Initial Setup
00:19 Chaos and Preparation for the World Cup
01:25 Cameroon's Opening Game Against Argentina
02:45 Diego Maradona's Challenges
04:56 Cameroon's Tactical Adjustments
07:35 FIFA's New Rules and Refereeing Challenges
11:35 Cameroon's Historic Victory Over Argentina
15:04 Advancing Through the Group Stage
20:41 Facing Colombia in the Knockout Stage
23:39 Cliffhanger: Preparing to Face England
24:32 England's Quarter-Final Prospects
25:25 Scouting Cameroon: Underestimations and Realities
27:32 Tunnel Tensions and Early Game Dynamics
29:37 Cameroon's Tactical Surprises
33:46 England's Tactical Adjustments
40:54 Cameroon's Legacy and African Football Challenges
50:07 Concluding Thoughts on Cameroon 1990
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This week on It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson look back at one of the most iconic footballing stories of all time: Cameroon’s 1990 World Cup.
Jonathan and Rob look at the chaotic preparations behind Cameroon's campaign, discussing last-minute squad upheaval, internal conflicts between teammates, and the unexpected recall of a man who would become a legend: Roger Milla.
In the build up to the tournament's opening game against defending champions Argentina, there were turbulent training camps, political interferences, and a complete lack of confidence in the squad. That would all change in the summer to come...
Join us on Friday for Part Two.
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
00:00 Pre-Game Nerves and Disorganization
01:02 Introduction to the 1990 Cameroon Team
01:25 Historical Context of African Teams in the World Cup
02:26 The Dramatic Campaign of Cameroon 1990
04:40 The Goalkeeper Dilemma
07:25 African Football's Struggles and Triumphs
14:37 Colonial Impact on African Football
17:44 Cameroon's Chaotic Road to the World Cup
24:09 African Players in European Football
24:58 Cameroon's Discontent in the 1990s
26:02 The Build-Up to the 1990 World Cup
31:43 Roger Milla's Unexpected Return
40:07 Goalkeeper Rivalries and Team Dynamics
43:33 Pre-Match Chaos and Last-Minute Changes
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.
Today Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author James Montague to discuss his new book 'Engulfed' - exploring Saudi Arabia's massive investments in sport.
James gives unique insights on the history of Saudi football, the Vision 2030 project, and how Newcastle United's takeover fits into the larger picture. You'll find out how strategic use of 'soft power' has transformed Saudi Arabia's global image through sport.
The trio examine the rich football culture in Saudi Arabia, the country's evolving social landscape, and the geopolitics influencing these changes.
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
00:00 Introduction
00:17 James Montague's Early Works and Reviews
01:28 Re-release and Sequel: Engulfed
01:59 Saudi Arabia's Emergence in Sports
03:26 Sports Washing and Soft Power
06:47 Historical Context and Saudi Investments
11:10 Mohammad bin Salman's Rise to Power
23:57 The Khashoggi Incident and Its Aftermath
30:13 Saudi Arabia's Football Culture
31:24 Challenges of Covering Saudi Arabia
33:52 Women in Saudi Football
35:15 Jimmy Hill's Influence on Saudi Football
40:33 David Icke's Saudi Adventure
46:10 Vision 2030 and Saudi Football Investments
52:26 Neom's Football Ambitions
57:34 Conclusion and Book Promotion
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was.
It's the final installment of our three-part series exploring the rise and fall of the American Soccer League. Jonathan and Rob dive into internal conflicts within the ASL, the 1929 Wall Street crash, and how its devastating effects exposed the vulnerabilities of the fledgling league.
But all is not lost - with another significant attempt to establish professional soccer in the U.S....
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
00:00 Introduction to the Series and Bela Gutmann's Influence
01:13 The Rise of the American Soccer League (ASL)
01:51 Innovations and Controversies in American Soccer
06:23 Financial Growth and International Tensions
08:17 The Playoff System and League Complications
10:53 The Struggles of Smaller Franchises
15:06 The Breakaway and Formation of the Eastern Soccer League
17:31 Chaos and Competition Between Leagues
22:24 The Soccer War and Its Impact
23:57 The Decline of the American Soccer League
25:27 The Wall Street Crash and Its Consequences
27:20 The Struggles of Key Figures and Teams
29:36 The Final Collapse of the ASL
34:25 Analysing the Failure of Soccer in the US
38:08 Comparing US and European Sports Models
45:36 The Future of Soccer in the US
49:17 Conclusion and What's Next
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In today's It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue to explore the fascinating story of soccer in the United States.
Highlighting the pivotal role of immigrant communities in the sport's development, the episode also examines key figures like Bela Gutmann and the significant tours by foreign teams that attracted huge crowds.
Join us for the conclusion of this three-part series on Tuesday.
00:00 Introduction to Bela Gutmann's New York Era
00:51 The Pre-History of American Soccer
01:36 Challenges in Establishing Soccer in the U.S.
02:26 The First Professional Soccer League
04:24 Financial Struggles and League Dynamics
07:16 Formation and Early Years of the American Soccer League
20:53 Innovations and Comparisons with Other Sports
24:19 College Football's Dominance and Soccer's Struggles
25:39 The Role of Universities in American Sports
26:14 Challenges in Early American Soccer
26:53 The Rise of the New York Giants
27:44 Fall River Marksmen's Dominance
28:25 Economic Struggles and Soccer's Impact
29:29 The League's Early Successes and Challenges
30:14 Expansion and New Teams
31:13 Player Transfers and Immigration Issues
33:19 The American Menace and Scottish Football
34:49 International Influence and Jewish Tours
41:07 The Impact of Jewish Players and Fans
44:23 The Maccabees and Tactical Evolution
47:49 The League's Growing Popularity and Issues
50:32 Concluding Thoughts and Future Outlook
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In this episode of It Was What It Was, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson dive into the early history of soccer in the United States.
They look at efforts to establish professional leagues, the influence of immigrant communities, and the geographic and cultural factors that made it difficult for football to gain a foothold - compared to rival American sports.
This episode is the first of a three-part series. Join us on Friday as the story continues!
If you’re enjoying the podcast, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to American Soccer
01:08 Early History of Soccer in the USA
02:00 Challenges and Attempts to Establish Soccer
02:38 Soccer's Struggle for Popularity
06:06 The Role of Universities in American Football
17:16 Immigrant Influence on American Soccer
17:43 Regional Hotbeds of Soccer
24:18 Formation of Early Soccer Leagues
27:43 The Rise of Fall River and Early American Football
28:31 Economic Challenges and League Suspensions
29:18 Comparing Football Cultures: UK vs. US
33:11 Baseball's Influence on Early American Soccer
38:53 The Birth of the US Football Association
41:36 Challenges and Growth of Early US Soccer
46:52 Bethlehem Steel and the Industrial Influence
51:01 The Challenge Cup and Regional Rivalries
52:09 Concluding Thoughts and Future Prospects
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was.
Rob and Jonathan are joined by David Corner - the man whose life was changed forever by the 1985 League Cup Final between Sunderland and Norwich.
That match is remembered for a costly mistake that led to Sunderland’s defeat - a moment that saw David singled out, subjected to intense criticism and even physical abuse from his own fans.
David shares his story with Jonathan and Rob, reflecting on how that experience shaped his life, the challenges he faced in the aftermath, and how he found the strength to move forward.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was.
With Liverpool and Newcastle set to battle for the first major trophy of the English domestic season on Sunday, we’re taking a journey through some of the greatest League Cup finals of all time.
Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper each share three of their favourite finals - games filled with drama, controversy, and unforgettable moments that have defined the competition. Have we missed any of your favourites? Get in touch with @ItWasPod
On Friday we have a special episode featuring David Corner, reflecting on Sunderland’s heartbreaking defeat in 1985.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was.
Mikel Arteta’s transformation of Arsenal, Unai Emery’s tactical mastery, Xabi Alonso’s meteoric rise at Bayer Leverkusen, and Andoni Iraola’s fearless pressing at AFC Bournemouth all highlight a remarkable trend: A new wave of coaches shaping the modern game, many of them from the Basque Country.
But why does this small region produce so many elite managers? Is it the coaching philosophy, the deep footballing culture, or something ingrained in the Basque identity?
This is the story of how a new generation of Basque coaches are redefining football.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was.
This week - we discuss the rise of Basque coaching. But we begin not in Bilbao or San Sebastián, but with a Catalan: Pep Guardiola.
After revolutionising football with Barcelona, dominating in Germany with Bayern, and redefining the Premier League with Manchester City, Guardiola has become the defining coach of his era.
But after a turbulent season at City, questions are emerging: Is this the beginning of the end for his football? Have opponents finally caught up with his ideas? Or does he have another reinvention left?
This is the story of how Guardiola reshaped the modern game—and what comes next. Part two, on the Basque coaching revolution, will be released on Friday.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was. This is the story of a new dawn - where one national team took full control of their destiny, cementing a legacy that continues to shape football today.
Following their World Cup triumph (in our last part), the U.S. Women's side entered a new era of independence and power - and with it came major shifts.
Coach Tony DiCicco became a casualty of the team’s growing influence, making way for fresh leadership and a transformed vision. But tensions were surfacing behind the scenes, with a showdown between star player Brandi Chastain and new coach April Heinrichs...
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and consider leaving a five-star review to help others find the show.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..
Approaching the end of the millennium, the U.S. women’s national team had already won a World Cup and Olympic gold, but they were still fighting for mainstream recognition. That all changed when they took centre stage at the 1999 Women’s World Cup.
With 90,000 fans packing the Rose Bowl and millions watching around the world, the final against China became a defining moment - not just for the U.S. team, but for women’s football as a whole. Brandi Chastain’s iconic penalty, the sold-out stadiums, and the sheer spectacle of the tournament proved that women’s football wasn’t just growing - it had arrived.
This is the story of how the 1999 World Cup reshaped the sport forever.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast..
Despite not playing their first professional match until 1985, the U.S. Women won the inaugural World Cup in 1991. But even as champions, they faced inequality—most notably at the 1996 Olympics, where they were only promised pay if they won gold, while the men earned bonuses for any medal. Tennis icon Billie Jean King stepped in to fight for change.
This is the story of how the U.S. women’s team fought for more than just trophies.
Part two, covering the iconic 1999 Women’s World Cup, is released on Tuesday. And if you missed our intro episode with USA legend Carli Lloyd earlier this week, go back and check it out.
If you’re enjoying the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.
In our new mini-series, we begin the journey of how women’s football in the U.S. rose to global dominance. And who better to start with than Carli Lloyd - one of the game’s greatest competitors and a key figure in that evolution?
From the early struggles for recognition to back-to-back World Cup triumphs, Lloyd’s career mirrors the relentless fight for respect and progress in the women’s game. She takes us inside the mindset that made her a two-time World Cup winner, an Olympic gold medallist, and the architect of one of the most iconic performances in women’s football history - her stunning hat-trick in the 2015 World Cup final.
Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.
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Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast.
In this final chapter of our series, we complete the journey that began with Gary Neville reflecting on the legacy of the Busby Babes. We explored who they were before the 1958 Munich Air Disaster, the tragic day itself, and now, we turn to the aftermath: How Manchester United rose again.
Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper take you through the incredible story of resilience and redemption. After recovering from his own life-threatening injuries, Sir Matt Busby rebuilt his beloved club, guiding them from devastation to glory. With the emergence of new stars like George Best and the leadership of Bobby Charlton, United’s revival culminated in their crowning moment in 1968, when they became the first English club to lift the European Cup - just a decade after their darkest day.
Thank you for joining us. If you’ve enjoyed the series, please subscribe and leave a five-star review.
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- Visa fler
