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Who is Jackie?
Jackie Naghten is a successful individual who has explored various businesses and disciplines throughout her life. As she approached her sixties, the idea of retirement loomed, but she was not ready to give up or stop. This led her to start investigating the concept of "unretirement" and how to continue living a fulfilling and purposeful life beyond traditional retirement age. Jackie's own experiences and insights have led her to believe that her journey can inspire and help others who may be facing similar questions about their own future.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Jacki Naghten: Unretirement speaker, change advocate, mentor.
05:48 Risieng number of older workers face discrimination.
07:26 Purpose brings satisfaction, drive to get up.
11:40 Left corporate job, became consultant, discovered skills.
16:30 Adapt to change and stay flexible.
17:26 Connecting with people is key to success.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
Connect with Jackie at Linkedin
A video version of this podcast is also at
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
unretirement, retirement, business, portfolio, mentors, entrepreneurs, MD (Managing Director), narrative change, change, career, job searching, personal brand, pivot, reinvent, coaching, mentoring, purpose, human connection, networking, technology, students, boomers, generation gap, communication, newsletter, podcast, careers, workplace, relationships, personal development
SPEAKERS
Jackie Naghten, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:21]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, 5 Questions Over Coffee. I'm absolutely delighted today to be joined by Jackie Norton. Now they always say, if you want to improve, if you want to get better in your business, you should employ people who are better than you, and that's how I feel about my guest today. I am really delighted to be having a conversation with Jackie who has a far more impressive portfolio of of businesses and interests than I have met, and so I'm really, really delighted, Jacqui, you found time in your diary to come and join us for a few minutes. Jacqui is what they call the unretirement speaker. She revealed facts and the reality about retirement in the 2020s for the boomers and how to get to your 100 year lifespan. She mentors and supports entrepreneurs who need to pivot and grow, and if she hasn't got enough going on, she's also the MD of a business whose mission is to change the narrative around the 50 plus woman, to become the invisible increasingly disappear at that age, and she's there to change that. And and that therefore means that what is throughout all of her career, what throughout all of her passion is that of change, changing individuals, changing businesses.
Stuart Webb [00:01:36]:
The need for change, managing change, and working out what is required is absolutely one of the critical bits of business that we need in the world today. So, Jackie, delighted you've spent time to come and spend a few minutes with us. Thank you so much for for being on It's Not Rocket Science, 5 Questions, Over Coffee.
Jackie Naghten [00:01:52]:
Well, thank you very much, Stuart. I hope it isn't rocket science. I hope it's not complicated as that.
Stuart Webb [00:01:59]:
No. Nothing is complicated than that. Look, Jacqui, let's start. You talk about being an unretirement speaker. You talk about, leading them. Tell us, what is it? Who who is it that you're trying to help? I guess it's obvious, but what who is it you're trying to help to understand the these changes that you're bringing to the world?
Jackie Naghten [00:02:15]:
Well, I think like most things in life, when you have any, you know, successful people, across all sorts of businesses and disciplines, and they tell their life story. Usually things happen because of what's happened in their lives, isn't it? You know, so you tend to look at yourself and think, well, this has happened to me. You know, I'm sure it must be happening to other people. So in the case of unretirement, I'm in my sixties now. And as I've approached that time and it sort of comes upon you, you know, you're bumbling along in your forties and next thing great. So you're gonna retire now? And I'm like, no. I don't want to retire. You know, what am I gonna do? And so I started to investigate this whole idea about not retiring because when I really thought about it for myself, I thought, you know, because retirement sounds like giving up, finishing, stopping.
Jackie Naghten [00:03:05]:
It feels like the end of life and I didn't feel like that at all. And I think particularly for women Webb we've had, a lot of time caring responsibilities, you know, juggling careers, suddenly as you get to your sixties, you actually have the time that you've always wanted to do things. So I started to investigate this whole issue of unretirement, which I I came up with. And then I found that actually exists out there and people are talking about on retirement, which is really, it's actually been coined by people who are actually returning to the workforce. So they've retired and then they've spent a couple of years in retirement, had a couple of cruises, done an extension, and then they're bored and they've come back. Because the truth of the matter is that for we boomers, and let's be honest, the boomers, we've been a quite a pioneering generation. We are now this is a final frontier for us, pioneering this move into older age. And, typically, as boomers, we're knowing it like it.
Jackie Naghten [00:04:03]:
So we question it. We're having a different, approach to it. We five a different lived experience, in our lives. I mean, certainly from the female point of view, a lot of us have had careers and brought up families, which, you know, wasn't wasn't didn't happen, you know, 50, 100 years ago. So we're a pioneering generation, and it's all changing. And we can see the rock stars are still rocking. The screenwriters are still writing, the actors are still acting well into their eighties nineties. So it's all changing.
Jackie Naghten [00:04:29]:
And so it's against that backdrop that I speak about on retirement.
Stuart Webb [00:04:33]:
And I think that's a really interesting point, Jacqui, because one of the things you just sort of talked about there is it's the experience that you bring. The the the the the fact of matter is that the the people who five retire often know better than anybody coming through all those things that do work and don't work and how to make that change the most practical, the most effective, as they can be. And and it's often that experience that we lose when people just sort of go Webb go off and do the cruises and spend time at home.
Jackie Naghten [00:05:03]:
Some people are very happily retired. Since you were 16. You can't physically do the job, you know, be a roofer anymore or whatever. And some and some many people are very happy to retire and focus on family and different things. But there's an awful lot of us who don't want to do that, and there's an awful lot of people who can't do that because the retirement, the state pension age is going up. And let's be honest, not many of us can live on that state pension. It's sort of more of a, you know, it's about a £1,000 a month. If you've got 25 years to live in retirement, a £1,000 a month isn't going to give you a very, exciting stimulating life.
Jackie Naghten [00:05:48]:
So, you know, that's the facts of the matter. So we've seen it for some time that our pensioners are going back into the workforce to supplement their income. But places like B&Q, you know, have taken on older people with all their experience, etcetera. But it's actually a much bigger issue now, and we're going to have by, I think, Webb about 50, 50% of the workforce is going to be over 50. Mhmm. And so there's a couple of things going on. First of all, there's a thing for people personally, what they want to do in it the birth rate's dropping, and they're suddenly waking up to the fact they might need older people. But meanwhile, what we know is 50 plus people are finding it incredibly difficult to get back into the workforce because there is a generational, sexist, a generational ageism going on, which is the last frontier of sort of, equality in the workplace, which is something that we at noon, with my other hat on, are working on.
Jackie Naghten [00:06:44]:
So, you know, my unretirement interest and speaking about unretirement kind of has a very nice crossover with the the work I do at noon, which is all about the 50 plus women who are very keen to get back to work and think about what they're going to do as they pivot in the midlife.
Stuart Webb [00:07:00]:
And I'm so glad you brought noon in because I was about to ask, of course, what is what is noon? And so therefore, let's let's move on to sort of what it is therefore then that you've seen people who are trying to sort of cope with this on retirement. You've mentioned a couple of times people who've retired and it's not for them, so they've gone back to work. What is it that you you are trying to do to help them with that with that transition? How do you how do you help people to understand whether or not retirement is right for them?
Jackie Naghten [00:07:26]:
Well, I think, I think what we have to think about is very simple. It's what gets you out of bed in the middle? What gets you out of bed in the morning? And what doesn't get me out of bed in the morning is just thinking, oh, I'm going to see some friends for lunch and I'll maybe go to the gym later. I mean, I'm not saying that's not nice to do, but I I it's lacking a sort of purpose, a sort of satisfaction. That's what I found, you know, because I I did have a period of time when I had cancer and that enforced me to have a a year off. And I and and and while you're not very Webb, obviously, I was so frustrated because I couldn't do anything. You know, I hadn't got any point, you know, I couldn't work and all these things. And so I'm just somebody, and there's lots of us around who just like like working. I mean, lots of people work in volunteer positions because they just want to have a purpose.
Jackie Naghten [00:08:11]:
And what we know, I think it's Sigmund Freud who said, you know, there's 2 main things in life out of all of this is love and work, which is really purpose and human connection. And that, you know, that's what working can give you and that's what we as humans, you know, on the whole keeps us going. So, you know, when I say work, it doesn't necessarily have to be financially rewarding work. It could be all sorts of things, but it's finding purpose. And I think that's where people quite often need help. Because as we all know, when we try and write about ourself market, it's very difficult doing that yourself. It's much more helpful if you do it with somebody else who can interpret how you are. And that's where coaching or mentoring comes in because, I can work with people, and they they may be let's say they've been an accountant for 20, 30 years.
Jackie Naghten [00:09:00]:
All they can think about is, like, well, I'm very good with numbers. I can do accountancy, but I don't want to do it anymore. And it's very difficult for them to think, what are the other possibilities. So what I'm very good at is thinking creatively with people about the other skills and strengths that they might have that could take them in a different direction.
Stuart Webb [00:09:17]:
Takes us in so many directions actually. So I think you're absolutely right. The the meaningful connections is hugely important. I think biologists are now beginning to discuss or, you know, you you hear in the media that, loneliness can be the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And Having those meaningful connections can extend your lifespan.
Jackie Naghten [00:09:35]:
I mean, I have to say, I have looked into an article about that. It's a slightly typically, as as you can imagine, typically, a sort of convoluted piece of data when you, you know, get underneath it because it it's not that simple, but loneliness is is an epidemic, you know. And as we live longer I mean, I'm widowed myself. As we live longer, divorce a lot of people are getting divorced in their fifties and sixties because they're thinking, if they're living till they're five and they have a non satisfactory relationship, they're actually getting divorced in their sixties, which is another reason why people often need to work because the financial pots got smaller, etcetera, etcetera. And also for women who were divorced and on their own, typically men tend to find another partner, women perhaps not. They want to go to work or they might not have worked for 10, 15 years. And so, you know, and they have no idea. You know, jobs have changed.
Jackie Naghten [00:10:26]:
The workplace has changed tremendously. And and so it's a little bit scary for, people when they're older to go back into, but they're quite keen to have that connection and to have some purpose.
Stuart Webb [00:10:38]:
So so, Jackie, if we if we if we now look at what how people can get in contact with you, I think I think you've given us your LinkedIn, your LinkedIn, and and the the Noon, which is the organization. Are there are there things that they'll find there that could be helping them to understand this transition that you're talking to people about?
Jackie Naghten [00:11:05]:
Well, certainly at noon, we have a lot of resources on there. We cover divorce, bereavement, cancer, job searching, all of those sorts of things. And there's lots of uplifting stories about, you know, all this because what we learn from in life is stories and it's always interesting to hear somebody else's Stuart. Yeah. And particularly if you're going through a tough time in your life, so for myself, I've got a you know, my story was my husband was diagnosed with a very with a terminal illness when I was 42. And I had to pivot. I had to change everything in my life. My life literally went up in the air, and I had to reinvent myself.
Jackie Naghten [00:11:40]:
I had to give up my corporate job. I went out into the world and became a consultant just based on networking really, you know, without any plan or thought. And so I've learned to market myself. I learned that I had skills I didn't realize I had, and this is I think the point of coaching, etcetera, you know, where you can you've actually got skills you don't realize you have because you think all you can do is add up numbers if, you know, do a balance sheet in accountancy. But, actually, you've got loads of other skills as well. And, actually, these are leading, problem solving, these sorts of skills, which you can apply to all sorts of things. So, you know, if you go to Noon you can find out about the Midlife Women. If you just come to my LinkedIn and connect with me then, I'm more than happy to, you know, I get all sorts of people who I meet, day to day and for various speaking engagements approaching me saying, can you help with this? Can you help with that? Because I've also worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and it's, you know, whether it's a business or a person, quite often a business falters and stutters and it might need to be reinvented or might need to take a different turn.
Jackie Naghten [00:12:49]:
And again, when you're the founder and the owner, it's quite difficult working that out. You need someone from outside to help you work that through.
Stuart Webb [00:12:57]:
Yes. Jackie, is is there a is there a a book or or course that, that really sort of helped you to understand how the unretirement world is beginning to become the new the new retire the the new work?
Jackie Naghten [00:13:13]:
Well, there's a there's a couple of things. I mean, we are, we are shortly going to be running courses at noon, about this. We're working on those at the Moment. I've got a book here which I came across or designing and I came across this about 10 years ago. I mean, that's an old version there. And it was written by 2 guys in, I think it's Stanford University in America, Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. And it absolutely fascinated me because I'm a brand person. And so because my background is retail and consumer brands.
Jackie Naghten [00:13:47]:
And, when you when you talk about brands, you're talking about brands have a sort of personality and they have values, etcetera. And what this book did, it actually looked to people as if they were brands. And so it really resonated with me. Because, actually, these days, people, you know, there's lots of chat about, you know, people talk about their personal brand. And your personal brand is just how you come how you present to the world and what your values are and what you can, you know, what you can how you can help people with. And so I would say designing your life, was all about looking at people that felt they were a square peg in a round hole, and how they could they thought just because they were interested, for example, one of the founders, the writers here. I mean, he was always as a little boy interested in marine biology. He became a marine biologist.
Jackie Naghten [00:14:37]:
So when he was about 35, he suddenly thought, I'm just not really that in this. I don't know why he's actually interested in something completely, something completely different. And quite honest, I mean, I when I was at school, I was good at languages. They said I should work in the foreign office. I would have absolutely useless as a civil servant because those are the sort of boxes, you know, we get put in boxes. And I still feel over today, the recruitment industry puts us in boxes whereas actually people have often have lots of other sides to them. So I would very much recommend that. And I would also recommend just, you know, going, if you're interested to pursue, reviewing your your your opportunities in life is to find a coach or a mentor.
Jackie Naghten [00:15:17]:
There's lots of, you know, TED Talks, for example, are an absolutely fantastic resource, which is all about telling stories about how people have embraced change and changed things. And they're very inspirational. You know? So, yeah, that would be what I would say, you know, go out. Main thing is go out into the world and connect with people. You know, I think you learn a lot by chatting to other people.
Stuart Webb [00:15:39]:
I I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't agree with more. Look, Jackie, I kept you talking for about the last 15, 20 minutes, asking you all sorts of silly questions but there must be one question that you're thinking, well I wish you would get on to this subject. So this is my opportunity to get you to say what is the question that you would like me to have asked. Well, obviously, then when I've, got you to ask the question, you better answer it. So what's that question you would like me to have asked?
Jackie Naghten [00:16:09]:
I suppose, the question I would like you to have asked, or that I think is a good question to ask anybody, as Webb as what has been the biggest, what has made the biggest impact in your life, you know, to bring you to where you are today to to today?
Stuart Webb [00:16:25]:
That's a very good question. So so what has been that biggest impact?
Jackie Naghten [00:16:30]:
Well, I think the biggest impact is really goes back to that story I just told of when my husband was diagnosed with a with a with a illness, which is, that you never know what's around the corner. Mhmm. So, you know, I always say my big piece of advice to my well, to my kids and to anybody who gets in a bit of a twiddle and a twaddle with things is to say, have a plan, the plan can change. You know, because people get But what's a common thread through all of that? It's about change and pivoting. But what's a common thread through all of that? It's about change and pivoting. You know, either pivoting, responding to outside outside influences because something, you know, you've got divorced, you you've got cancer, whatever happened, you know, you've got a sick child, and you have to change and rethink what you're doing, or because you want to. You want something different. You want to be reenergized and do something different.
Jackie Naghten [00:17:26]:
So I think the most important thing is to realize that you, you know, you you can't that that life won't be as you plan. Have a plan, the plan can change and go out and connect, you know, people are the biggest resource that's free out there that you can connect with and just, you know, you might I mean, I'm an you know, we're probably Stuart Natural Connectors. We're doing this sort of stuff, you know, we are sort of probably I'm certainly myself an extrovert. It's not easy for everybody. Not everybody's like that, but certainly if you're not somebody and and a lot of people think, oh, networking, you know, oh, that's a load of old you know? But actually, whether you wanna call it connecting or meet networking, connecting, meeting people, for me your fellow humans are your biggest resort to make change. And, you know, you you you you can't do any any and it's free, you know, to a certain extent. You know, it might cost you a cup of coffee or some of your five. But I've never had a wasted meeting with anybody in my five.
Jackie Naghten [00:18:23]:
And you always learn something. So, you know, that's what I would really encourage people to do. I don't think people realize how, how much that can impact your life.
Stuart Webb [00:18:31]:
I think it was a brilliant thing to say and and certainly something that I'm passing on to a number of the I do some work with some students and I do with them, and I'd give them something very similar, which is, you know, if someone if someone suggests a meeting, take the meeting, you don't know what's gonna happen. You might look at it and think, well, that would be a waste of my time, but you have no idea where it's going, who they might meet,
Jackie Naghten [00:18:54]:
who they might introduce. You never know. Always learn something, and I've learned, you know, probably when I was younger, I was a bit more judgmental, you know, and I've really, really learned. And that's the one thing about older age, you get a bit more wisdom and, you have hindsight. And I would say, I don't think I've ever had a wasted meeting. Because even if you don't get the outcome from the meeting that you wanted, you people. And it's a 6 degrees of separation. You know, if all somebody you've got in common somewhere, I find it quite amazing.
Jackie Naghten [00:19:28]:
And having been on this planet now for such a long time, and recently gone back out into the world, the world of entrepreneurs and founders, I've just been talking to somebody who has a similar background to me in corp you know, I've done corporate finance and productivity. And of course, we have you know, there's all these people we have in common. It just never ceases to fascinate me. And I think your point you make about your students, obviously, the younger generation growing up in a different digital five. And I just worry for that generation sometimes. Do they realize because they do everything on technology, maybe even on Zoom, I still would rather I mean, this is lovely to do this, but it's it's wonderful to meet people in person. It is a different experience. And I think it's really important that young people understand the power of connection, not just on a WhatsApp and through, you know, all this.
Jackie Naghten [00:20:13]:
You know, my my my daughters won't even take phone calls. They don't like talking on the phone. You know, it's gotta be all this. So, you know, I I do worry for the younger generation. I would think it's really important that we make sure that they do understand the power of connection.
Stuart Webb [00:20:25]:
I wonder if we could have another 2 and a half hours on that subject. So I better close this down before we do because I know that's something that I worry a lot about working
Jackie Naghten [00:20:34]:
with you. I think all of us all of us boomers, I mean, if my daughters call me that's so boomer, you know, because I've got a I've got a desk covered in paper because I write notes with a pen, and they get all of that. Such a and then she took a picture of it and said, that's such a boomer desk because I've got paper and pens on it, you know, and they don't have anything. So I think our husbands are very worried about the the young you know, they're they're they're all doing fantastically well, but there were just certain aspects that you do worry. You know?
Stuart Webb [00:21:02]:
I am I am very concerned at the moment about a number of people I meet that don't do the don't when I say to them, have you chatted to them about that? They go, yes. Yes. And I go, well, what did they say? And they said, well, Webb didn't say anything because we did it over text. And my immediate response is never ever managed to resolve any dispute
Jackie Naghten [00:21:18]:
No.
Stuart Webb [00:21:19]:
Resolution, any negotiation over went well when you were doing emails and texts. They always needed something to
Jackie Naghten [00:21:25]:
put the coffee in the wrong place. It's completely a different statement. You know? I mean, how I mean, I have this with my best friend all the time. You know? She doesn't pay attention when she's reading, and you you can just so misinterpret the text. You know, it just doesn't and certainly not for business.
Stuart Webb [00:21:40]:
I'm gonna bring this to an end before we alienate half of the young people that Five persuaded to listen to this podcast because they need to. Jackie, it's been an absolute joy to spend time with you. I really appreciate you making a few minutes to speak with us. I'm just gonna put on the screen now the link to our newsletter. Now if you want to get on to the mailing list Webb you will get an email from me, which actually says who's coming up to talk to us on these, on these LinkedIn five and podcasts so that you get notification and you can actually think about whether or not you want to link with them or spend any time thinking about questions you'd like to put them. Go to this this URL, which is on the screen at the moment, httpscolonforward/forward/ link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. That's link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk forward slash newsletter. And, also, you will then get subscribed to the podcast when it gets released, as a second five of the cherry Webb you can listen to all of this again and rewind and listen to it as many times as you want because I think some of the stuff that Jackie has given us today are absolute nuggets of information.
Stuart Webb [00:22:53]:
They're really applicable to a number of, of the audience. Jackie, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciate you spending
Jackie Naghten [00:23:00]:
My pleasure. And just just and just, sort of just on the point about the younger generation, I do work with a lot of, because I have young children myself. I work with a lot of young people who are often stuck in their twenties as to what they're gonna do. So I'm more than happy to talk to anybody about, you know, any any young people out there who are who are stuck and not sure which way to go. More than happy to have conversation.
Stuart Webb [00:23:21]:
Jackie, I know so many people who would take you up on that. I'm gonna point you in your direction. Thank you so much for spending some time. I know how valuable your time is because when you just talked about as much as you're doing, you must must try and cram in as much as you can. So thank you for a few minutes of your time. Really appreciate you you being with us.
Jackie Naghten [00:23:39]:
Well, thanks for the invitation, Stuart. It's been a pleasure.
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Who is Karen?
Karen Green is a marketing expert who has a passion for helping people sell their ideas, products, and services. She firmly believes in the principles of virology theory and how they can be applied to any sales situation, whether it's an investor pitch, business presentation, or job interview. With a focus on niche marketing, Karen helps her clients achieve their goals and reach their target audience. Her expertise extends to a wide range of industries, making her a valuable asset to anyone looking to sell more effectively.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Broad sales principles apply to various situations.
04:54 Tailoring sales approach to individual buyer preferences.
09:29 In 30 seconds, tailoring emails makes difference.
11:57 Logic and biology in business development book.
14:47 Book by former FBI negotiator with storytelling.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
Copy of Karen’s book by dropping her an email at [email protected]
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
Find out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguest
Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
Help us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!
Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
buying mindset, sales director, buyer's mindset, pricing, corporate buyers, facts and figures, virology model, human interaction, selling, personality profiling, AI, communication, prospecting, negotiation, case studies, coaching, selling toothpaste, retail, sales growth, buyer's profile, business development, webinar, Jeff Walker, B2B sales strategies, human approach, Harvard Business Review, decision making, influencing, marketing, entrepreneurship
SPEAKERS
Karen Green, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:21]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions over coffee. This is a great opportunity for me to sit and chat, with somebody I'm really looking forward to a discussion with. And I do have a cup of coffee, so therefore, good opportunity for me to sit back, let her do the talking, and I'll do the coffee drinking. And today, I'm talking to Karen Green who was a buyer, with with Tesco. Five I got that right, Karen? Yes.
Stuart Webb [00:00:53]:
And then you moved into, the, the supply side where you were a sales director, and now you are an expert consultant and speaker helping us all understand the buyer's mindset and how to go about doing things like, well, pricing and buying and things like that. So, Karen, I'm really looking forward to the conversation. Welcome to it's not rocket science, 5 questions over coffee.
Karen Green [00:01:17]:
Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
Stuart Webb [00:01:20]:
Terrific. Webb, okay. I guess the first thing we have to sort of dive into is is who is what is who is the person you're trying to help? What is it that we're all misunderstanding about buying that you're trying to
Karen Green [00:01:31]:
help us to understand? So on a on a broader scale, because, you know, whenever you talk to marketers, they say you should niche it down, niche it down. But on a broader scale, anybody who is trying to sell something, and you could be selling an idea to somebody, you could be selling a product or a service, or selling your business. So if you're doing an investor pitch, or even if you're trying to sell yourself for an interview, the principles behind behind the virology theory work for for any of those. So, much as, you know, my target audience is obviously, for my clients is more narrow than that, but this can work for any anybody really who wants to to sell more and sell better.
Stuart Webb [00:02:23]:
And what is it those people have done before you try and help them that that have made Webb they've made mistakes in that? Is is it just is it just not understanding the process or is it more than that?
Karen Green [00:02:37]:
It's more than that. And I and I found this statistic, and I asked lots of people. So I'll ask you the the the the number. So according
Karen Green [00:02:49]:
According to Harvard Business Review, what percentage of business to business, because that's really what I work in, business to business, corporate buyers, make the decision based on fact?
Stuart Webb [00:03:03]:
Yeah. So I'm going to have to say according to Harvard Business Review, and and I haven't read this article, but I would imagine it is a very, very low percentage. And I would imagine most people going into a buying situation think that that person buying is basing on all of the facts. And I'd imagine it's basically on whether or not you smiled or did something to make them feel good or treated them like a human or something like that.
Karen Green [00:03:29]:
You're absolutely right. So they say about 5% of
Stuart Webb [00:03:33]:
decisions That doesn't surprise me, I'm afraid. Based
Karen Green [00:03:36]:
on fact. And and that's the biggest mistake that I think I probably was making from, from day 1 of being a salesperson because, my personality is is quite fact based. I'm quite interested in in sales growth and numbers. So I would do all my research, and I'd look at the company, and I'd look at, their values and their mission and their statistics and the market share, and I would know that relatively inside out. And if I didn't, I'd usually have somebody with me who did, like a category manager. And when I was sort of putting together the the basis for my model, the virology model, I actually realized that that's only 1 third of of the of the piece. The the main part of it is, as we say, that that buyers are human. And therefore, what you've got to do is spend more time researching the person you're selling to as a human being than actually the corporation.
Karen Green [00:04:42]:
And then the 3rd pillar, which I think is quite interesting, and it's harder to research, is what is that human's interaction with the company they're working for?
Karen Green [00:04:54]:
So for example, I do a lot of work with food and drink companies selling into UK retail because that's obviously my my background. And you might get a buyer who's been there a long time, seen it all before, doesn't really wanna rock the boat, and therefore, you know, you have to think about, well, they're not looking for promotion, they're gonna be looking just to keep going. They've seen it all before. Or you might have somebody actually who's who's super ambitious, wants to change the world, quite happy to go and do things differently, and that can make quite a difference between the way you, you tailor things. So that's where you kind of if you if you'd look at all three pillars, you will have a better chance. And it means that you can take your your basic sales message, whatever that is, and and tailor it according to the person. And that's and that's the skill, that's the basis for the book, and that's the basis for what I work with clients on to to make to make the difference.
Stuart Webb [00:06:10]:
That's that's interesting. I think it's it's very reminiscent. Of my experience when I was, first first out of, what I did and and and entered a world where I was being taught to be a manager briefly before I started sort of taking taking you know, doing doing things with my own companies. But the one thing that I can remember a a manager mentor of mine saying was when I sort of provided somebody with some feedback, I was doing it based upon my understanding of something, which was all about, as you said, numbers. And and this person looked at me and said, how did they take it? And I said, well, I didn't understand. You didn't seem to care about that. He said, no. You have to tailor your message to what they care about, not what you care about.
Stuart Webb [00:06:54]:
And it was such a I sat there and thought from, well, that sounds that sounds so so ridiculous. I mean, I was I was sort of, you know, late twenties. You know, I was I was one of those sort of, you know, sitting there knowing knowing everything and then thinking, well, why on earth is this person telling me something like that? Because that's clearly rubbish. And and it was absolutely the right advice because people don't wanna hear it based upon your understanding. They wanna hear it based upon their understanding, don't they? They're and and and as as communicators, the thing that we have to remember is that communication is what the listener does, not what we do. We can we can shout it from the rooftop, but if nobody's listening, we've communicated nothing.
Karen Green [00:07:35]:
It's true. And what's exciting, I think, now is the fact that the combination of having LinkedIn and having, AI, and there's there's a couple of AI, systems you can use. I use Humanix. There's also Crystal Knows, and there's a couple of others. You can go and analyze the buyer or the the person that you wanna sell to because it might not be a corporate buyer. It must might just be your boss, for example. And you can work out their personality based on and Humanix uses the the DISC profiling. So you can then say, well, actually, I mean, I'm a I'm a relatively strong red personality.
Karen Green [00:08:16]:
So, and I remember a bit like you when I was younger at at at Tesco, my boss sitting me down and saying, you know, you went and asked accounts for us. He said, talk me through. And I went, well, I took it up like you said, and I gave it to them. And I said, I need this. And he said, did you say good morning? And I went, might have done. Did you ask them how they were? And I'm like, well, why would I? Am I interested? I don't care. And he said, I think if you built the relationship a bit better, you might understand, you know, you might come better. And I was like, oh, okay.
Karen Green [00:08:48]:
Fine. But if you if you know your personality as well so I know that I'm high red. I'm gonna get to the point quite quickly. I'm it's not entirely true because I do have a bit of eye in me as well. So I am relatively interested in people, but I think that's probably come as I've got older. And if you know your shortcomings or your purse your chosen approach, and then you use something like Humanix, which really has changed the way I do, because I obviously work with a quite a large number of clients, so I do a lot of discovery calls. And I can go on to LinkedIn. I can profile them.
Karen Green [00:09:29]:
In 30 seconds, I've got fair idea what they're gonna be five, and it just it just gives it the edge. It really does make a huge difference, to to the way I approach things. I'm not as good as I should be, you know, in terms of tailoring my emails and tailoring this, that, and the other. And and I was, I was watching a, webinar last week actually by Humanex who were talking about how, you know, if you've got a mailing list, I use Hub Spot, and you've got, say, a 1000 people on it, you can segment it by, type and and and all that kind of thing. And and, yes, I probably would do better. And their their open click rates is amazing because they do tailor it specifically to to different types. But and I'm sure once AI gets a little bit better than it you just press a button and then it will do it for us. But at the moment, it's a little bit a little bit weird for me.
Karen Green [00:10:22]:
But
Stuart Webb [00:10:23]:
I'm I'm looking forward to the day that I, that that that on on on my behalf and AI buys everything I've already decided I want. Although at the moment, I've got a son that does that for me, and I just over things appearing, through the post because he just sits and orders stuff that he's decided that I want. Well, most of the stuff is for him is just my credit card. Anyway, so look. That takes me for the next to the next thing, and I think you've got a really brilliant free offer that, that we can we can all tap into to sort of learn some of this stuff. And and for this moment now, I'm going to show this ticket because I believe you have got a really valuable free offer, which I'm really excited about.
Karen Green [00:11:08]:
So so yes. I wrote, my this is my second book actually, Recipe for Success, which was aimed at at food companies. It's available on Amazon if if you are interested. But this is a broader book. This is around know your buyer, sell more, and and sell better. And the first third of the book does go into understanding the why. So, you know, understanding why why are people more likely to be human in a corporate decision making, situation than than driven by by facts and figures. And then it I get into the the disc profiling and different ways that you can actually work out who your who your customer is and and to think about the 3 3 pillars.
Karen Green [00:11:57]:
Because, you know, at the beginning, I was saying we tend to focus on that 3rd pillar about, well, the the logical bit. We still need the logic because if we don't have the logic, then the rest of it will will fall apart because we still you know, there there still needs to be that factual basis. And and then the final part of the book is thinking about, well, how do you go out and do all those different things to do within business development and sales, such as prospecting, sending the cold emails, having the meetings, closing the sale, getting repeats. All of that part is there, but but with the underpin of of how do you tailor it and how do you use biology to make difference. So that's that's the book. It is a it is available on Amazon, but, yes, if you drop me a line, I will arrange for and an address, actually. I'll need your address at the same
Stuart Webb [00:12:50]:
time.
Karen Green [00:12:51]:
So so
Stuart Webb [00:12:52]:
drop an drop a a request and an address to karen@buyerology, that's buyeroldoydot co.uk. And that will be winging its way to you, which is a fantastic free offer. I love it.
Karen Green [00:13:09]:
Yeah. Please please do. I'll get get the message out because I'm really I am genuinely very passionate about what I do, and I think, the more people can who who get that understanding. Yeah. And as I say, you don't have to be an entrepreneur or in business for it to be useful. I mean, you know, some of some of the I don't know whether when toddlers actually get their their, personality. In fact, I should look that up because I've never thought about that. I've always thought, you know, if you're gonna sell something to a toddler, then that's probably and succeed.
Karen Green [00:13:43]:
Selling an idea to a toddler is is probably the hardest thing you'll ever do.
Stuart Webb [00:13:47]:
Well, I think is it is it it's not it's it's an old truism that we're all selling all the time over if you're what you're trying to do is persuade your your significant other to go out to the cinema. There's a there's a there's a there's an interaction of selling and buying interaction going on there, and it's just it's continuous, and we all ought to be better at it, I guess.
Karen Green [00:14:08]:
Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's it's
Stuart Webb [00:14:10]:
Makes make would make for happier relationships, I suspect, if we did actually do some of that. So, was there a particular book or course that actually sort of started you to to to think about? Obviously, other than the 2 books that you've mentioned that you wrote, but was there a particular book, of course, that actually, started you in this journey about understanding how buying be is such an important part of five.
Karen Green [00:14:34]:
So I would say the the best book I've ever read on this is Never Split the Difference. Five I've forgotten who wrote it now. Oh, god.
Stuart Webb [00:14:46]:
I didn't know.
Karen Green [00:14:47]:
I was looking on my shelf to see if I had it, and I think it's it's packed away because I've been it'll come back to me in a minute. But it's written by, he was an FBI negotiator, so he's not he wasn't at the time a commercial person. I mean, he does do a lot of training now. But it's a brilliant book because he does it there's a lot of storytelling in it, and he does talk about negotiating with with hostage situations and things like that. So it is quite interesting, but then he does get into, you know, how to negotiate a a pay five or how to negotiate, with your with your significant other as you're describing. It is a really good book, and it will come to minimum as to who's written it. It's it's a major major major major bestseller.
Stuart Webb [00:15:37]:
But that's, that's interesting, isn't it? Because once again, that you know, it's I I think we're discovering, you know, not that all buying situations are hostage taking situations, but I can understand what the the the the, the the links between those 2 because, obviously, what we've got is 2 people who are trying to reach some sort of an agreement, and I I guess Stuart the normal agreement is the price or whatever over you're gonna pay.
Karen Green [00:16:01]:
It's Chris Fox, by the way. I've just looked it up. Okay. But yeah. And and the point of the book, Over Split the Difference, I think is is a really good one because it's it is a technique that I've seen when I I was, Yeah. When I was working with Tesco. So they'll say, well, we want 50% margin. And you think, well, actually, I was only going in for, like, 30.
Karen Green [00:16:26]:
So if they say, let's split the difference, that's 40. But, actually, your toppest, toppest might be 38. So for them to go, let's split the difference because they've set this ridiculously high target figure to start with is is really poor. And and I actually do use it that thought process a lot where someone moves if someone says to me let's split the difference, I always say no. Just
Stuart Webb [00:16:52]:
Just to see what happens?
Karen Green [00:16:54]:
Chris said. Chris said say no.
Stuart Webb [00:16:58]:
How fantastic.
Karen Green [00:16:59]:
That's funny.
Stuart Webb [00:17:00]:
Get out of that situation?
Karen Green [00:17:04]:
Well, it's you then have to look at the reasons why you wouldn't split the difference. It's quite hard actually because some people think it's think it they're being generous. They go, well, should we you know, if you're buying a car and they'll say, well, should we split the difference? Or I've had clients I have one recently where someone was saying, well, can we split the difference? I Webb, oh, no. No. Because because because you're asking a map. You were asking too much to start with. But you gotta be careful because then that seems a bit rude.
Stuart Webb [00:17:33]:
I love it. Oh, we could talk for this on our list, but we better not. We better not because I think, 1, it would it would eliminate any, any reason for anybody to to try and get your book, and they definitely should get your book. So I'm going to ask you the final question, which is obviously, Five been asking questions and you've obviously beautifully answered them, but there must be a question that you wish I had answered and I haven't yet. So, Karen, what's the question that I should have asked you? And, obviously, you know the answer better than anyone else, so you better answer it for us as well.
Karen Green [00:18:05]:
What's what's the evidence that biology works? I think is
Stuart Webb [00:18:11]:
the best. That's a lovely question. I think it's a lovely question. Is there a good case study that you can bring us?
Karen Green [00:18:18]:
There's there's there's lots there's lots of of case studies I can bring. Certainly, over the last 2 or 3 years, I've had clients come along to me, and they've they've they've said, oh, this is my business and this is it, and I will turn on. I can remember one in particular. And I said, you don't really enjoy right running this business, do you? Because you really don't like selling because you're actually a real nice people person. And she went, you've only spoken to me for 5 minutes. How do you know that? And she got quite but she was very impressed. And we did end up working together for a very long time. And I did obviously explain to her afterwards.
Karen Green [00:19:00]:
I said, well, I've just profiled you, and and you're definite a very green person, and you like getting on with people. And and and therefore, you you know, to to sit across a buyer is gonna be really hard. So what you need is someone like me to protect you and go in and do it for you. And that's what I do actually with with a number of my clients. So so that kind of is an example of of the beginning of of of how it works. But, certainly, at the moment, I'm doing a lot more selling than I would normally do, on behalf of clients. I normally just coach, but I've got a couple of people who came to me and said, well, would you do it for me who are not born sellers? And, yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with it actually Stuart adapt, to the different personalities, and we're I'm off to see, Boots actually on Thursday sitting on the other side of the desk selling toothpaste. So it's gonna be quite interesting.
Stuart Webb [00:19:59]:
Fantastic. Fantastic. Karen, I mean, my immediate response my immediate response is I can't I can't believe, that you won't get 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of requests for that book because, Well, if I
Karen Green [00:20:11]:
get 1,000,000 and 1,000,000, then we'll have to put we'll have to put, like, no more than 50 p 50 will be given away because, we don't want the repeat of, was it? Right.
Stuart Webb [00:20:21]:
There that is that is your that is your your challenge, people watching at the moment. And And if you're watching on replay, you may already be too late. Get that email to karen@birology, b u y erology.co.uk immediately to get your free copy of that book because I think, Karen, that is a brilliant message. I love what you've been telling us. I love the way that you're helping to peep get people. And I really appreciate you spending a few minutes with us, today.
Karen Green [00:20:54]:
Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it. It's been great.
Stuart Webb [00:20:56]:
Lovely. Now look. If you would like to get, an email from me letting you know about the wonderful people that are coming up on this podcast so you can watch five and get in before the offers disappear, send, go to this link, which is link.thecompleteapproach.c0.ukforward/newsletter. That puts you onto our letter list. We will be sending you an email, which gives you information about the upcoming webinars, the upcoming LinkedIn lives Webb you will hear wonderful people like Karen speak. And, Karen, I just wanna thank you once again for coming on and, spending a few minutes, certainly educating me, and I really appreciate it.
Karen Green [00:21:37]:
Thank you very much. Thank you. You've been great.
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Who is Tracy?
Tracy Borreson has a background in corporate marketing but found that the industry lacked authenticity. Determined to change that, she left the corporate world and started TLB Coaching, a business centered around having real conversations and helping companies find their unique DNA. Tracy believes that the standard approach of giving easy instructions and expecting success doesn't work, and instead focuses on helping people figure out what they would do in any given situation. Whether it's through in-person networking events or marketing advisory services, Tracy's mission is to bring authenticity back to the marketing industry.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Marketing professional seeks authenticity and unique approach.
06:49 Choosing convenience over joy can diminish experiences.
10:30 "Need for communication and understanding client problems."
13:16 Target niche markets efficiently to save money.
16:41 Personal brand campfire: audio meditation experience.
18:23 Book recommendation: "The One Thing" - Focus
22:37 Trade show success is about creating experience.
26:46 Embrace failure, learn, nobody died, keep going.
29:15 Failure is necessary for learning and growth.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandsthatspeak/
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Personal branding, Authenticity, Marketing strategies, Customer engagement, Business development, Digital space, Authentic insights, Customer needs, Education-based marketing, Targeted approach, Sustainable marketing, Meaningful relationships, Sales, Customer experience, DNA and actions, Authentic marketing, TLB coaching, Sales strategies, Meaningful activities, Personal brand campfire, Authentic expression, The One Thing, The Art of Gathering, Human connection, Community building, Productive day, Mentor advice, Asking the right questions, Business growth, Mistakes in marketing
SPEAKERS
Tracy Borreson, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:20]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions over coffee. I'm here at the moment. I've actually just finished my drink, but I should be getting another one very soon. I'm here with Tracy, who is obviously well caffeined up. Hi, Tracy. Really good to see you. Tracy is a, is is is really into the authenticity, particularly in the digital space, and, runs, TLB coaching, which I'm sure we'll get to, in the in the future. And she's really, all about trying to make your, your, brand, your your personal brand to become the leading way in which you engage with others.
Stuart Webb [00:01:01]:
So, Tracy, welcome to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions, have a coffee. Looking forward to this conversation enormously.
Tracy Borreson [00:01:08]:
Me too, Stewart. I've for since the 1st time we chatted, one, I love the whole concept of it's not rocket science. So, hopefully, we don't make it too complicated for people to say.
Stuart Webb [00:01:17]:
Well, look. It's it's it's I always say to people, business is is so easy. Why do we overcomplicate things? And and for me, marketing is is simple as well. People people worry so much about, you know, the the terms and things like that. So talk to me a little bit about what it is you try and do to help people. What is it that you're trying to do with TLB coaching?
Tracy Borreson [00:01:37]:
So my background is marketing, and I was in the corporate marketing arena for a long time. And one of the things that I didn't experience very much of there was authenticity, which as defined by me is people doing and saying what they would do or say, when they would would want to do and say it. And so I kinda meandered around the marketing industry for a long time trying to find my place of where I could have this conversation, and I didn't find it. So I left corporate, started TLB coaching, and it's all about being in the conversation about what would you do. So I believe that every business has a unique DNA, and while the current environment that we live in is very much about one of ease and simplicity and let me just tell you what to do and you can do it and you'll be fine, The problem is is that doesn't work. It doesn't work the majority of the time. Sometimes you get lucky, but the majority of the time, it doesn't work. And so in everything we do at TLP Coaching, whether that is an in person networking event to actually, like, be a marketing advisory services we provide, It's all about helping people figure out what would you do.
Tracy Borreson [00:02:57]:
What would your business do? I did this post on LinkedIn yesterday that I was super annoyed about, because people have started using the, like, service request form on LinkedIn to pitch. And I was like, for real? I got 2 in the same day. So, like, clearly, someone is telling people this is what they should do. Right? This is a way to hack the new LinkedIn so you don't have to have a paid membership or whatever. But just like, would you do that? Would you? Or would you not? Because if you wouldn't do that, then you don't have to do it. And just helping people get back to honestly, I think it's a personal confidence thing or a business confidence thing. Personal confidence creates business confidence. Would you do that? And if you wouldn't do that, honestly, it doesn't even matter if everybody else in your industry is doing it because if you wouldn't do it, you're either going to, a, do it in a completely undedicated way that's not gonna work for you, or 2, you're gonna do something else which makes you stand out from the industry, and that's really what we're trying to do in marketing anyway.
Tracy Borreson [00:04:04]:
So Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:04:06]:
Yeah. I was, I was on a, a meeting with a a bunch of other company directors recently, and we were talking about the disconnect of marketing in organizations and talking about the fact that so often, you know, marketing is doing something which, you know, then can't be delivered by by by sales and can't be delivered by operations. And as a result, what you end up with is marketing fighting and saying to people, but we should be doing this. And the answer is, yeah, that might be what you want. But, unfortunately, the rest of the organization can't do it. You're just making yourselves look unauthentic as you say or end up in a situation where there's there's infighting, and it's not collaborative. And as a result, what do you end up with? You just you've somebody looks at the marketing and goes, great. I'd like that experience.
Stuart Webb [00:04:50]:
But when they get delivered that product or service, it doesn't match what they believed, and they will they will then just turn off. And that would that'll be that'll be the end of their their interaction with that that particular company. So being authentic is so important to the whole experience that you have, not only the marketing, but how it gets delivered, whether the salespeople can sort of live up to the promises. It has to be one thing that everybody can can can live to.
Tracy Borreson [00:05:13]:
Yeah. It's a it's a we exercise. And the we is marketing and sales and customer experience and operations and the delivery truck drivers and whoever else is involved in this company going to market. And it's also the we in the ideal customers and partners and vendors and, like, all of these things. This is a we exercise, and it's something that it's it's just very interesting. It it I'm not gonna say it's not complex because the more people you a thing, the more complex the interrelationships between humans become. But at the end of the day, this is about, okay, we are all here for one reason. There's a famous quote by a, janitor at NASA who was at like, what do you do here? And he is like, putting a man on the moon.
Tracy Borreson [00:06:10]:
Like, that's what we're doing here. And we all have our different roles in that, but when you have that kind of commitment from a we, then, like, it makes a huge difference and not that makes it huge difference internally, which then makes a huge difference externally.
Stuart Webb [00:06:27]:
And and we sort of strayed into it, Tracy, but, you know, at this stage, it's sort of you know, what is it you see people doing, which which, you know, we've sort of talked about it a little bit where where it is unauthentic, where people are not doing something which which is authentic to their to their marketing efforts and somehow makes it look as if they're liars?
Tracy Borreson [00:06:49]:
I mean, quite honestly, I think a lot of the times, it comes back to doing the easy thing. And if you're just listening, I used air quotes in there because it's sold to you as if it's the easy thing, as if you just do this. I have this ex like, personal example that I always reference, which is, like, I hand chop nuts almost every day to go in yogurt or granola or whatever. I I and I like to do it. It makes me feel like a top chef, and I am very far from a top chef. Let's put it that way. And my dad was at my house once, and he was observing me chopping these nuts, and he was like, you need a slap chop. And I was like, I mean, a slap chop would make this easier, and it would make it faster, but it would also take away all of the joy that I have in doing the activity.
Tracy Borreson [00:07:45]:
And so I have not got one. I told him not to buy me one because he's also the type of guy who would be helpful and just get you one. And it's like, no. I like to do I like to do this, and this is the thing where we're, like, so caught up in this ease of use conversation because we just everything want everything to be faster. We want everything to be more simple, and we miss that we're trading away what is meaningful for us to do those things, and then we have businesses who are in business using their marketing departments to just convince people that what you need is my easy thing. Right? You you don't have my easy thing. It fixes all your problems, except most people don't know enough why they have a problem to answer that question, to say, like, yeah. That actually fixes my problem because in my scenario, I don't have a problem.
Tracy Borreson [00:08:38]:
I don't have a problem with chopping nuts. Right? So now your slap chop is irrelevant to me because I don't have a problem with that activity and but the people in this scenario, the company, put yourself in my nut shopping shoes as a business, you don't know enough about what your problem is to say, I don't need your slap show. Right? Like, I don't need your website design services. I don't need your podcast production services. I don't need wherever. I I don't know what I need. So the answer is really in that, like, going back to basics and saying, like, what's the problem here? Because the problem is our problem isn't we'd need to chop nuts faster. That's not our problem.
Tracy Borreson [00:09:26]:
What's our problem? Okay. Let's go to market and see what's out there to fix that problem and let or from the flip side, if you're not looking at it from, like, marketing perspective, now you have really good clarity on the problem. You fix for people, and you tell the market it. Right? Yeah. No. I don't know how many slabchops have been sold. A lot of them. Right? There are lots of people out there who have problems chopping nuts.
Tracy Borreson [00:09:52]:
Sure. Get a Slack job. I don't have 1 though, so that's not the prob that's not a problem for me. There are problems I have, but it's not that problem.
Stuart Webb [00:10:02]:
Yeah. There are so many people that sort of you know, and I I come across this with people who are teaching lead generation. I'm I'm using air quotes as well now. So we're we're all into the lead generation, lead generation services on LinkedIn, which is, you know, the first thing you have to do is sort of, say hello. And then immediately, the message goes back where where you know, hello. And then do you want such and such? You know, I get I must get I don't know how many a day. I've sort of, you know we've seen your podcast. You must need podcast production services.
Stuart Webb [00:10:30]:
My answer is, hang on a minute. You haven't even asked me whether or not that's a problem. You don't know yet whether or not that's my problem. I have problems, but you haven't actually even bothered to reach out and find out whether or not. And I was talking to, you know, a client actually today who was who was actually sort of saying, you know, about their the the the they've they're trying to gen they're trying to write a course for a for a particular standard. And and I said said, well, you know, are are customers coming to you and asking for this course? And his answer was, well, they have they do once we've told them they need it. And I said, and why don't they need it? And he said, well, we're dealing with industrial places, and they're all using the domestic standard, and they don't know that there's an industrial standard. And so the first thing they come to us to say is, can you can you, can you implement this regulation? And they go, yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:11:23]:
We can, but, actually, you need this one. And they go, oh, why do we need that one? And then they start the education, and he said we it's only after they've we've engaged with them and started talking to them that they recognize that what they initially thought they wanted isn't what they want. And that some somehow and I sort of said, like, I love the way you're doing it, but the major problem you've got at the moment is that you haven't yet engaged with the number of people that actually have a problem and don't know they've got a problem. It's exactly what you were saying. Too many people are reaching out and sort of basically trying to thrust down the throat. You that'll solve your problem. You don't even know you got a problem yet, so they're trying to reeducate their educate their their market, which is proving to be the the the thing which is gonna cost them the most, but it's gonna be the most profitable in the end.
Tracy Borreson [00:12:08]:
Well and I think that's that is exactly the point. Right? And is that the thing that's gonna be all most profitable for everybody in the end? No. A lot of people go to market with this education component assuming that if I educate you, then you will buy what I need, but this is not then really education, right? This is persuasion, so let's call it what it is, and it's not that it, it's not that it can't work. Right? It can work. It has worked. It has worked on me, right, but is that what you can find yourself committed to doing for the long term? And these are the things about, like, like, the lead gen on LinkedIn is that, like, this strategy is based on I call spray and pray. And I spray my message everywhere, and I pray that it lands with somebody because there are people out there that have a problem, but I am not doing anything intentionally to find a person who has a problem. I'm just spraying the market with stuff.
Tracy Borreson [00:13:16]:
When you have a very small percentage of the market that has your problem, you're gonna spend a lot of money on that strategy before you find somebody, and if you're a business that doesn't have a lot of money, including the time you're paying somebody to do those activities to do that, then that's probably not the right strategy for you. Can it work? Sure. I'm more of a fan of the shoot the fish in the barrel analogy. You got all these fish in a barrel and, well, I'm not trying to shoot people, but, like, everything is sounds like I'm very into guns, and I'm Canadian, and I'm not, but it's like but these are the points. Right? Like, that's more of a me. I wanna, like, kinda wrap people in a community, and then I wanna see if there's something in there that is is is worth mining instead of, like, I wanna go out and, like, just and so the the secret there is in being able to say, I don't wanna do that. Somebody who tells you I had this guy once on LinkedIn, and I've, like, referenced him pretty much every conversation trying to convince me that if I don't do prerecorded video, I will never have a successful business. And I was like, I hate prerecorded video.
Tracy Borreson [00:14:32]:
I just don't believe what you're saying, and you should spend your energy somewhere else convincing someone else who is opening to listen to you because it's not gonna be me. You can try and peer pressure me all you want. I will never believe what you're saying and just move on, and, again, it's not that, like, video is bad. Right? It's just not something I'm ever gonna do because I'm totally uncomfortable with it. I waste a huge amount of time doing it. It's not for me. So being able to stand up for what's not for you, what is for you when someone else is telling you that that is bunk, and you're like, well, I've built an entire funnel based off them that works for me, and you have the confidence to say, this is my way of doing it, then we're into the realm where you can have a sustainable growth focused marketing program.
Stuart Webb [00:15:20]:
Brilliant. Tracy, there must be some stuff that you've got on, your websites and things like that. Is there a is there a one particular thing that you find that most people would be most interested in that that talk to them about, you know, some valuable advice that you could give. And I I put your LinkedIn profile on the screen, which is linkedin.com/in/brands that speak. Is it is it is it stuff that you you you we should know about that you give away and help people to understand how to do this sort of thing?
Tracy Borreson [00:15:52]:
So the first thing that I personally love is my LinkedIn live show, which is called the Crazy Stupid Marketing Show, which Stewart is gonna be on in the future. The show is based on helping people understand what they're doing from a marketing perspective that is crazy and stupid and not going to lead you in the direction you wanna go and opening the door to perhaps more empowering perspectives that can allow you to do things that are more meaningful and more sustainable for your business. So that is one of the things I love to do. It's on Tuesday afternoons, depending on where you are in the world. It's on. Actually, I have a guest from, Australia later today, and it's technically Wednesday morning for him. But, anyway, it's it's it's a show, and it's on LinkedIn. You can find it.
Tracy Borreson [00:16:41]:
You can also find it on YouTube. Crazy stupid marketing. The other thing that I really love to do, and I do this with, a lot of the workshops that I host, is something called I mean, I call it the personal brand campfire. You can do it equally from a business perspective too. It is an audio experience. It's available on my website, and what it does is it's it's kinda like a meditation that helps get you re centered on who you are and how you show up, and then using that as a foundation allows you to choose marketing strategies, sales strategies, narratives. What I mean, honestly, you could use it to start your day and have a productive conversation with your kids. It helps you get realigned to what would you do and what does it feel like to be in your most authentic expression of yourself and how can you start with that visualization and let it roll out into your day, into whatever you're going to do that day.
Tracy Borreson [00:17:46]:
It could be goal setting. It could be KPIs. It could be pretty much anything. It's about starting from you. So that is something that's available on my website. People can feel free to go and download that. I think it's like a 4 and a half minute thing, audio experience, and, yeah, give it a try. I have some clients who, like, do it every morning.
Stuart Webb [00:18:07]:
Brilliant. What was it that re initially got you, or or or or is there a valuable book or something that you recommend your clients read or that you read yourself that that sort of helps to to center people around authentic marketing?
Tracy Borreson [00:18:23]:
I have 2, and neither of them are actually marketing related books. So the first one is a book I recommend to pretty much everybody that I meet. Again, regardless of whether you are running your own business or you're just a human doing life, it's called The One Thing, and it's a book about focusing on what's important. So again, whether you're trying to do that from a business perspective or a life perspective, it's very empowering. The central question of the book is what is the one thing I can do right now that will make all other things easier or unnecessary? And as soon as I heard that, I was like, this is genius. This is going to be my life. Yeah. It's a great idea.
Tracy Borreson [00:19:06]:
And you will be surprised. Right? I'm like, you can look at what can you do in your, like, list of chores at home? What are the things that you can do with your kids? What are the things you can do in your business? What are the things you can do in your marketing? It is really, like, a very global question that is very, very empowering, allows you to get back to the simplicity of that. Secondly, a book called The Art of Gathering, and so
Stuart Webb [00:19:33]:
to me
Tracy Borreson [00:19:34]:
yeah. Okay. So I love it. I have it on repeat on my Audible. It is a book about people being together. And so for me, I believe that marketing is about creating a community of people, and so that is tied into the art of gathering. And whether you're hosting events or you're looking at this from a marketing perspective or you're having a birthday party or what have you, this book brings about so many interesting ideas of what it looks like for humans to connect with humans, and that is one of the things that I like the most about it.
Stuart Webb [00:20:12]:
I have made a note of the book of The Art of Gathering, and I love the idea behind that. That is one that we'll be getting, that will be getting into my, my bookshelves very soon. And on that one thing, you know, the what a mentor of mine said to me many years ago, they they they they sat me down, and they I'm you know? This was back in the days when I was, a a young young young, you know, research student.
Tracy Borreson [00:20:36]:
So yesterday?
Stuart Webb [00:20:37]:
Back yesterday. Yeah. And they turned around to me and they said, look. If you can get one thing done tomorrow morning before 11 o'clock, that means you've moved forward 1 step. The rest of the day, you can take off. And if you get 2 things done by doing it by 11 and then 1 after 11, you've almost brought yourself back a new day. And I sat there and I thought one thing by 11 o'clock, I can do that. I can do 1 thing by 11 o'clock, and it's become a habit.
Stuart Webb [00:21:08]:
You know, I sit down at the end of every evening. I sit down and I write the one thing that I'm gonna do tomorrow morning before I get onto my emails, before I do anything else, before I receive a telephone call or anything, I'm gonna do that one thing that moves the business forward. And then if I achieve it by 11 o'clock, the rest of the day is mine. I can take the rest of the day off if I like, or I can try and do a second thing. And it's such a simple idea, isn't it, to do one thing? Just one. But it's possible. Your brain can compute one thing.
Tracy Borreson [00:21:40]:
It's true. Although I will also say having be being a check a checklist person, there's a lot of things that we put on a list that we do that aren't meaningful.
Stuart Webb [00:21:54]:
Yeah.
Tracy Borreson [00:21:54]:
That aren't meaningful to the relationship we're building, that aren't meaningful to the businesses we're building. And I think that is probably the toughest arena to explore is that you could go from doing a 100 things that are not meaningful in one day to doing one meaningful thing.
Stuart Webb [00:22:14]:
Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right. The seek one of the secrets I learned when I was doing 1 training course is I did a statistical thing, and I turned around and said, you mean the important thing is to ask the right question? And he went, yes. That's it. It's asked the right question. You can ask a 1000000 questions and get an answer. But unless you've asked the right question, every answer you've got is wrong.
Tracy Borreson [00:22:37]:
It's so true. I remember having this conversation with 1 of the ladies who is on my show, and she got this opportunity to, have a booth at a trade show, and so she had asked me. She's like, okay, I know you know about, like, what are what are the things someone would normally have at a trade show booth? And I was like, well, some of the things people would normally have at a trade show booth are a table and some chairs and some swag and a banner and a video with rotating video of your cup like, this is what people would typically have, but is that what you would have? And she was like, ugh. No. Okay. That's the point. Right? The the point is the question isn't what should I have. Right? Like, it's what what what would I create? Right? What experience do you want people to take away of you from this trade show? Do you want to just do what everybody else is doing, or do you want to look different? And, like, this is my people.
Tracy Borreson [00:23:37]:
We're talking about, so, obviously, she wants to look different, but, like, these are these are the things, and also this is why I believe it's so powerful to be surrounded by a community of people who are curious in that nature. What would you do? This is the thing I always think about. Even when it like I was young, I had nobody ask me that question. Right? I I went into the program. People told me what I should do. This is a good idea. I I did that for a very long time. Got to the point where I was like, well, that's not what I could do.
Tracy Borreson [00:24:07]:
Then had to figure out, what would I do? I'm still in the process of figuring out what I would do. I feel like this is a lifelong journey. But when you surround yourself with people asking you what you would do instead of surrounding yourself with people telling you what you should do, your experience from a personal and a business perspective changes, dress.
Stuart Webb [00:24:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Look, Tracy, up until now, I've been doing all the work asking you all these questions, and there must be a question that you're thinking to yourself. Hey. He hasn't asked me about such and such. So what is that 1 question that I should be asking you? And, of course, once I've, you once you've asked that question, you're you're gonna need to answer it for
Tracy Borreson [00:24:46]:
us. You know, it's funny because I knew this question was coming, and then I feel like I kinda, like, answered my own questions the way along because that's how I do. But I think one of the most powerful things in this process is, like, how do you move? Like, how do you go from where you are today to having confidence in the way you would do things? So that's the question I will ask myself. My answer is practice. You have to practice. It's yeah. So I grew up playing competitive basketball. We're city champions when I was in high school, and so, I mean, it's cities.
Tracy Borreson [00:25:28]:
It's not like, woo, the biggest thing, but it was a championship basketball team And a lot of the times I look at what are the difference between a championship team and a not championship team? And almost always, it's because of practice. Mhmm. Yeah. And it's not also because of just, like, individual practice. A whole bunch of players can go out and practice alone and it doesn't mean that your team is going to jail. It was a we activity and we practiced. We practiced and we ran and we did stairs. We did sprints and we shot free throws and, like, I don't even know.
Tracy Borreson [00:26:02]:
I kinda wish I had counted how many free throws I have shot in my life so that I could get to the point where I can shoot 80% from a free throw line. Like, it doesn't happen the 1st time you shoot the ball. Right? It doesn't, and so many times in business and from a marketing perspective and from a personal development perspective, we think we get this idea. Right? Okay. I'm gonna be authentic. I'm gonna go and and and do it my way, and then we don't because we don't know how to do that.
Stuart Webb [00:26:32]:
Yeah.
Tracy Borreson [00:26:33]:
So you have to go idiot. To the basketball court and shoot. You have to shoot, and you have to miss. You have to get it wrong. There's no 100 percents here. So practice. You gotta practice.
Stuart Webb [00:26:46]:
And and fail. You know? Sometimes sometimes you have to allow yourself to fail because I I said this sorry. Once again, I said this to another client recently who turned around and said something along the lines of what happens if it doesn't work? And I said, do you know how a baby learns to walk? A baby learns to walk by getting up, falling on their backside, and thinking, well, I'm not gonna do that again. I'll do it different. And you don't learn and get it right by by just waiting and waiting and waiting until eventually it becomes right. You have to get out, do something, practice it, and if it goes wrong, well, okay. That's one way that you don't do it the next time. And even if it does go wrong, nobody died.
Tracy Borreson [00:27:28]:
Well and especially okay. I had a boss once working in marketing. He used to always say, we're not saving babies, which I 1, just resounded with me, 1, because my mom was a neonatal nurse, so it was actually her job to save babies. It has never been my job to save babies. Also, I can't handle the sight of blood, and my mom is a nurse. I don't know. Person. There's no problem, but, like, we're from a marketing perspective, folks, like, this is not if you are doing flyers and they don't go out till Tuesday when they were supposed to go out on Monday, doesn't matter.
Tracy Borreson [00:28:09]:
Right? Like, it just doesn't matter. And maybe maybe you learn like, okay. Yeah. They do need to go out on Monday to give people enough time to know because there's people like me who don't check their mailboxes for, like, 2 weeks, which is yeah. That's a thing I do. I have the worst checking my mail. Don't mail me something important, folks, unless you're gonna tell me it's coming. But, like, you learn from getting it wrong, and if you aren't, if you aren't, then you're just a baby who lies there.
Tracy Borreson [00:28:38]:
You're not even a baby who learned how to crawl. Right? Babies learned how to crawl. They learned how to walk. They learned how to ride a bike. They learned how to run. Right? Like, that's a that's a staged methodology, and if you don't experiment at the very first step, you are never going to get to running. So if you are hoping that there's some kind of magic that exists to take you from stage 0, lying there flat on your back like a baby in your marketing, all the way up to running and beating your competitors ahead of all your competitors in the market, it has to come from experimentation. You have to experiment and you have to get it wrong.
Tracy Borreson [00:29:15]:
You have to fall down. So if you also are looking for someone who's, like, going to promise you that this is going to work a 100% of the time and it's not a thing, guys, because you haven't done it before. That same that same methodology hasn't been tried on by your body type, so you don't know that it gets until you try it on, and then you're like, oh, no. This doesn't fit. Let's not do that. But I did kinda like that. Like, I like the color of that shirt, but I don't like the cut of that shirt. So I'm gonna look for more shirts that are that color, but not that same kind of This is how humans get learn how to walk.
Tracy Borreson [00:29:51]:
It's how we choose clothes. It's this is the same methodology for your marketing as well.
Stuart Webb [00:29:57]:
Tracy, yep. I I I love the ideas. I love that. We think we could go on for hours, but we better let you get back to doing something important, and meeting with your customers. Folks, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna wrap up. And and now if you wanna go to, this link, h t t p s, colon forward slash forward slash link .thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. That's link .thecompleteapproach.co.uk forward slash newsletter. Fill out the form there.
Stuart Webb [00:30:25]:
Get onto the newsletter list so that you can get an email from me with some of the brilliant people that we're gonna have on in the future, like Tracy. I'm gonna give you words of wisdom like this. You can't believe. Tracy, thank you so much for spending some time with us. You have such an infectious attitude and such an infectious spirit. I love what you're saying. I really believe if you can't get authentic with you, you can't get authentic with anybody. So thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us.
Stuart Webb [00:30:51]:
I look forward to hearing what people think about what you've said and, being authentic with it.
Tracy Borreson [00:30:58]:
Awesome. Thank you for the opportunity,
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Who is Ben?
Ben Dickie is the co-founder of Hivemind, a platform designed to provide flexible and dynamic access to expertise for executives and business leaders within enterprise organizations. With a focus on transformation and innovation, Hivemind connects these leaders with specialists in a meaningful way. Ben's vision for the platform is to enable executives to access the right consulting support at the right time, ultimately moving their businesses forward. Hivemind also serves as a networking environment for independent experts who have left industry to set up their own consulting businesses or work as independent contractors. Ben's goal is to create a space where these individuals can share and learn from one another, ultimately driving success for all involved.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Hivemind provides flexible consulting support for execs.
04:23 Clients are unique, need change management investment.
10:55 Hivemind offers diverse expertise and adaptable methods.
14:13 Helping organizations create their vision for success.
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https://assess.hivemindconsulting.com/transform1
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business technology consultants, positive sustainable change, Hivemind Consulting Network, enterprise organizations, transformation specialist, innovation specialist, medium and large sized enterprises, independent expert, shared values, independent contractor, change management, investment in change management, transformation readiness, transformation programs, fractional role, communities of excellence, transformation and change, small independent consultants, traditional consultancies, shared learning, networks, expertise, transformation and change community, transformation and change framework, transformation and change literature, small groups working together, Be More Pirate book, pirate culture, future vision, FTSE 100 businesses
SPEAKERS
Ben Dickie, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions over coffee. My coffee is here. It's nearly gone actually because it's, it's been it's been a lot to do this morning. I'm really grateful that we've got time from Ben Dickey This morning to talk to us. Ben is the chief revenue officer and cofounder of the Hind Hivemind Consulting Network, A global network of really business, technology consultants driven by a lot of shared values and a desire to make a Positive sustainable change in in business today. So, Ben, really grateful for you making a few minutes, for us today. Thank you for your contribution to It's Not Rocket Science. Five questions over coffee.
Ben Dickie [00:01:04]:
Delighted to be here, although my, my coffee sadly empty as well.
Stuart Webb [00:01:10]:
What can I say? Sometimes sometimes you have to actually stop drinking the coffee and do work, but, you know, we'll try to avoid that for the next few minutes. Listen. Just just tell us a little bit about sort of, you know, what you're trying to achieve with with Hivemind. Who are the who are the sort of people that you're attempting to to help overcome some of the problems they've got in a different way.
Ben Dickie [00:01:33]:
Sure. Yeah. So Webb founded Hivemind. It's our 10 10 year, anniversary or our 10th birthday this year. Yeah. Yeah. We've got 2 distinctly different, customers as as we see it. So our our focus, I think to answer your question is is primarily with medium and large sized enterprises.
Ben Dickie [00:01:57]:
So execs, Yeah. Executives and and business leaders within enterprise organizations who are Transforming and changing their their their business or or they're looking to innovate. And so With with that customer group in mind, we founded Hivemind really to provide a more flexible, and dynamic way For for execs in in those organizations to access expertise, so external consulting support At the right time and and for just the right amount of time. So enabling them to to interact with Transformation specialist or innovation specialist like yourself, Stuart, to To five, yeah, to to move their business forward in a in a in a really meaningful way. And, yeah, the the our over customer group It's, so it is is the independent, expert. So individuals who Yeah. For for for over variety of reasons, it's becoming more and more, more and more popular over more and more commonplace, decided to leave the, leave industry and set up their own, their own consulting business or strike out as an independent contractor. The network provides, an environment for them to share and learn with, with others.
Ben Dickie [00:03:24]:
It's a network of like minded, individuals with, as as you said, a shared a shared set of, of of principles or or values, but ultimately driven To do the work that they enjoy and and five, and, and to and to make an impact and a difference for, yeah, for for for for clients and and the the wider community.
Stuart Webb [00:03:49]:
And and and we could talk for hours about sort of, you know, the the value of of shared learning and shared networks. But but for for the purposes of this, because I'm I'm hoping that what we got are people who are who are watching us, who are, you know, that That target, customer that you're trying to help, you know, they they will have been working with traditional consultancies, Small independent, consultants themselves. What what is what is the problem that they really face that that you are addressing in a slightly different way of working.
Ben Dickie [00:04:23]:
Yeah. I think I mean, every client That we work with is is is unique. I think they have their own, you know, their their own culture and their own their own ways of working. The common threads that we see, are are specifically around change and and transformation Our, you know, change changing big organizations is really, really hard, and, It Stuart with with the exact leadership and and the vision for, for for for change and transformation. And, and and and I would say then, yeah, having having worked on more than a dozen, large transformation programs, I think most organizations underestimate the, the the impact an investment needed in in change management. So once they've set a vision and a course of direction, It's really all about the people in in the organization and and probably some of the more, yeah, some of the more challenging environments that we've, that we've worked in, are those where change management and the effort required there in investment required there has been, been been underestimated, And and what were successful, where we've where we've been working with them from the beginning is really rightsizing that, After understanding the impact of the the change that they want to make on the on the people in in the business, and, and then proactively managing that on an ongoing, on an ongoing basis.
Stuart Webb [00:06:06]:
So so so it so so the five mind is obviously better at Estimating some of those things. Where where does that where does that expertise come from?
Ben Dickie [00:06:14]:
It comes from the the the 2nd group of customers that I mentioned. So we we've we've now got over 2,000, leading independent Consultant and expert, really practitioners. So, you know, these are these are people who've been, successful and I had successful careers over, over the years that have have now decided to, yeah, decided to To set up their own business or or to become independent, and some of that's, I think being a, Having a fractional role or being able to support 1 or 2 or or more clients is is becoming more attractive to, to to people with expertise in, and Hivemind provides a, Hivemind provides an environment where All of our members are able to retain their own independence, so still free to go and win work outside of five mind and and continue supporting customers that they've worked with previously, but also have the opportunity then to work on, Projects and engagements as a as a collective where, where their their unique experience is, is valuable to One of our end clients, challenges and, and and issues. So we organize, yeah, we organize those experts In, yeah, in in communities of excellence, and, and then look to surface the, you know, the The the leading approaches and and also learn from, from from unsuccessful, unsuccessful interactions as well.
Stuart Webb [00:07:53]:
Yeah. It's those, it as, as as as I've often had to explain it to people when they turn around and ask, you know, so what What what is it that's different about somebody like you? And the answer is, you know, I've got the the the, the the story the war stories to tell, the scars that I can prove But that's not the way you do it. I've I've found a better way now.
Ben Dickie [00:08:13]:
Yeah. It's it's it's exactly that, Stuart. I think all of our, All of the practitioners in in in our communities have probably as many, as as many lessons learned from things that didn't quite go go to planning in their corporate career as as they have got, you know, awards and and stars for, For for for real successful, outcomes that they've achieved and and what we enable when we're taking our clients, The the end clients, the enterprise clients on a on a journey through, through change and transformation or over innovation Is, is is bringing to bear really all of that experience so that we can we can help them avoid, mistakes that that folks in our organization have have made in the past.
Stuart Webb [00:09:04]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Ben, I think you've got a, I'm just gonna pop it up now. I think there's a there's a there's a, a a valuable, piece of free advice or or Guidance, however you'd like to describe it, that I've just put on screen now, which is assess. Hivemindconsulting.com Forward slash transform. What do do you wanna just describe what that, that valuable offer is?
Ben Dickie [00:09:27]:
Sure. Yeah. It's I mean, it's it's Taking on the, yeah, taking the learnings and the insight from, our transformation and and change community. We we built a, sort of a short, maybe five 5 to 10 minute, online assessment that that looks at really looks at transformation readiness. So if you're either A bank to embark on a change in transformation program, or you're in the middle of 1, and it's not going as well as, as as well as it could. It's really just a, yeah, an an online diagnostic to get to, in in six Six core areas. What what might be the root cause of, the transformation program not going as smoothly as it could or or really just to make sure that you've got, You're considering the the core, yeah, the the core elements of transformation ahead of, ahead of getting started and making a big investment and and a big change in the business.
Stuart Webb [00:10:32]:
So so leading into that, is there a particular course or Book or or program or something which which which has led you to to understand how those elements are important to transformation and how to to Better do things as as you're advocating than than than more traditional consultancies might might make it.
Ben Dickie [00:10:55]:
It's a really it's a it's a really good question. The there's, there's huge amounts of, of literature On, on on transformation and change, and there's there's, yeah, lots of of frameworks and methods and and tools. And, I think probably one of the advantages that that Hivemind brings is that we, We we've got such a broad church of of, practitioners and specialists and experts, and so Webb we try not to make the clients fit the methodology and rather understand the client's environment and, and and look to leverage The right the right tools or, or or or methods. I I think the, you you you mentioned is there a is there a book or or a resource, and and One that we, one that we went through last year, actually, in there's there's a there's a book club for the practitioners in in in in your network. And one of the books that that was, that was in in the book club last year was Be More Pirate, Which, I don't know if you've if you've come across.
Stuart Webb [00:12:03]:
Come across that one. That's one to go on my list.
Ben Dickie [00:12:06]:
Really, really odd title, But, actually, a fascinating, a fascinating read and and kind of draws parallels between the, the the pirates of the, Well, the the famous pirates of the Caribbean and the Blackbeards and and how, they were really driving, and and there were there were, Yeah. Lasting impacts of, of of kind of pirate culture in, in in our society today. So, The the real strong message that comes out in in that in that book is how, yeah, smaller focused Groups of, of people working together can can five, you know, a a much can have a really significant impact, and and that's our, Yeah. On unwittingly or knowingly kind of call to how we work at Hivemind having having small groups of, of really dedicated and committed people Working together to achieve really big things.
Stuart Webb [00:13:06]:
And is it absolutely critical that every single one of those persons has a, pirate, a a a patch, And a a peg leg to go with it, Ben, or is now are those now optionals in the pirate world?
Ben Dickie [00:13:18]:
Yeah. It's a so totally optional. And No. No. Good to know.
Stuart Webb [00:13:22]:
Good to know.
Ben Dickie [00:13:23]:
No pirate nicknames are given out. It's a yeah. But yeah. So I Personally recommend having a, having a read of that if, if if you five, like
Stuart Webb [00:13:35]:
It's it's it's on the list. I will go and look at my, My hat and, and my hat and immediately see what I can do about it.
Ben Dickie [00:13:43]:
I mean,
Stuart Webb [00:13:43]:
we you we're kinda coming towards the end, Ben, so there must be 1 question that you're currently thinking, I wish he'd asked me about, such and such. And so this is the bit where I sit back and go, well, you can do the work for once in your life. So, What is the question that I should five asked you by now? And, obviously, once you have, given me what the question is, you will obviously need to answer it. So What's the question you want to, you want me to ask you? And then please give us the answer to it anyway.
Ben Dickie [00:14:13]:
Okay. I think for, yeah, for, I think for for me, The question on where we where we would be how you know, how how how can we how can people get started working with Highfines, and and what's the most what's part of the most valuable work that we do? And I'd say, really, it's it's helping organizations create their, their their future vision. So considering where they are and, and and really working working with an external organization on, On on, yeah, tapping into the knowledge and experience that they've got across their senior executives, Setting a, setting a really strong vision up for changing or transforming the organization is is is probably the most important, Activity to undertake to ensure ensure success, and and it's something that we've, you know, we've we've we've got Really, really strong practitioners. Lots of really great experience in in doing and achieving, and, from from midsize organizations right way through to, to FTSE 100, businesses. And I and I think very, very much along the the the theme of, of of the pirate book with a, you know, with a with a really small initial team and small initial investment, that's the that's the starting starting point to to to kicking off successful change and and transformation.
Stuart Webb [00:15:45]:
Ben, that's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today. Just point people back to that, free assessment, which is, assess.hypemindconsulting.comforward/transformone. And and if you'd like to get on to the mailing list to hear over, brilliant speakers, I I send an email letting people know Who's coming up and and and and so that you can prepare and and get ready to ask questions on the on the live chat? Get on to that list by going to link dotthecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. That's a link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk forward slash newsletter, and, and we'll see you at another one of these in a few days' time. Ben, I really appreciate, you spending a few minutes with us now. Thank you so much for spending some of your I know it's valuable time because you're a busy guy. I really appreciate you coming on and telling us a bit more about the hive mind.
Ben Dickie [00:16:42]:
No problem
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Who is Sneha?
Sneha Mandala started her career with high hopes and determination to succeed. She joined her first job with a mindset to give her all and perform at her best, aiming to see where it would take her in her career. However, as time passed, her enthusiasm and engagement dwindled, reflecting a common struggle many employees face. Sneha's story serves as a reminder of the importance of maintaining passion and drive in the workplace to avoid the negative impact on businesses.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Businesses struggle with workforce productivity and engagement.
06:19 Seek joy and flow at work, succeed.
10:28 We spend 100000 hours at work lifetime.
11:44 Praise for Sneha and invitation to join mailing list.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://www.linkedin.com/in/snehamandala/
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/xVziTz9lpB0
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If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Sneha Mandala, TEDx keynote speaker, coach, adviser, employee engagement, work culture, flow state, suboptimally, CEOs, workforce productivity, engagement levels, HR department, Band Aid fixes, happiness, satisfaction, engagement surveys, flow state, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Steven Kotler, peak performance, corporate setting, 5th question, work culture, work enjoyment, effortless work, mailing list, podcast, work culture transformation.
SPEAKERS
Sneha Mandala, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five questions over coffee. I haven't actually got in front of me. This is a lemon tea. Sneha, I believe you've got something in front of you at the moment. So, Sneha, welcome to It's Not Rocket Science. Five questions over coffee.
Sneha Mandala [00:00:38]:
Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Stuart Webb [00:00:40]:
Sneha is a TEDx keynote speaker. She is A, coach and adviser on, employee engagement, work culture, and she, works with people to get them into a great flow state as part of their work. So, Sneha, welcome to the podcast. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say.
Sneha Mandala [00:01:01]:
Thank you so much, Stuart. I'm sure this is gonna be a fun conversation.
Stuart Webb [00:01:06]:
So so I I mentioned then the sort of The the sort of problems that people have getting into a sort of their state at work. What are the issues that you see with people when they are working, Suboptimally, and CEOs find that they don't have, optimal engagement from their from their people.
Sneha Mandala [00:01:25]:
Thank you. So think about this particular employee. Okay? Imagine an employee who who has just gotten started in their career. Now they're not signing up for that 1st job of the career thinking that they are doomed to fail. Right? They are thinking, I would love to give it my everything. I would like to give it my best. I would like to perform at my We can see where this is going to take me in my career. But, flash forward to a year or 2 in, You don't see the same amount of enthusiasm and engagement in that employee, and this is where businesses suffer.
Sneha Mandala [00:02:01]:
They think they're hiring great people for these jobs, and then a few months in or a year in, they see the productivity lacking. They see engagement levels dropping, and that's what a lot of business owners and CEOs are worried about. We thought we are we were hiring all stars, And now they are on the verge of leaving. And worse, if they're not leaving, they're just coasting here at work. Studies show that, The American workforce on average spends less than 4 hours productive being productive, during a workday, which is just astonishing. Yes. So those are the challenges that businesses are currently facing. You have on one side a leader that wants extraordinary results but is not getting them through the workforce.
Sneha Mandala [00:02:54]:
On the other hand, you have an employee who is feeling dull, exhausted, not very engaged at work. And everything I talk about is how do we make sure that these 2 things are occurring harmoniously at at work. Mhmm.
Stuart Webb [00:03:11]:
So so what are the things that CEOs are trying to do to get that back which are which are not working?
Sneha Mandala [00:03:19]:
Yes. So one of the things that CEOs typically tend to do is they go to their HR department and they say, hey. We would like to increase our engagement levels. We wanna keep our Employees happier, and more satisfied. And what the HR department, comes up with is, sure. Let's Have over Tuesdays and free pizza Fridays or five, ping pong tables in in, lunchrooms. And somehow they would think that, the dissatisfied and disengaged employees would magically become a 100% engaged at work. And the problem is They don't.
Sneha Mandala [00:03:54]:
These are simply Band Aid fixes that help in the short term, but not in the long term. So if I'm an employee and I'm dissatisfied, I see, you know, free pizza Friday, and that's gonna momentarily make me feel, oh, Okay. This place has its own perks, but the moment, a shiny new object passes by so in a another words, A recruiter with a better package, tries to post them, they are ready to jump ship like that. So I like to compare this, with relationships. So trying to keep your employees happy and satisfied using these Band Aid fixes is like dating. But what we are really looking for is not dating. We're looking to put a ring on the finger. We're looking to get them feel committed and engaged to the larger organizational No goals here.
Sneha Mandala [00:04:46]:
So when I work with CEOs, I clearly distinguish that, hey. We're not looking to make them happy and satisfied Because that's not going to, contribute to productivity. That's not going to contribute to create them being creative and innovative and, More, raising the bar at work. We are looking to get them feel more engaged and committed to, to understand what their personal goals are and how they connect to the larger organization picture. And that's when leaders are just five they stop Dead in their tracks, and they're like, what? Were we thinking about the wrong thing all this while? Were we measuring the wrong things all this time. So, for example, when they implement engagement surveys, they're really measuring happiness and satisfaction and not really engagement. So, that self awareness, I feel, is the 1st step to going down in the right direction towards building that higher performance and engagement and employees, And that's the moment for leaders.
Stuart Webb [00:05:48]:
And is there a one piece of advice or valuable offer you can give people to really sort of help them get message?
Sneha Mandala [00:05:56]:
Absolutely. And I have this message both for employees as well as leaders. So Think about this. If you are spending all of these hours, we spend more time at work than we spend with ourselves or with our loved ones. And those are all the hours that you could be smiling. You could be engaged. You could be passionate. You could be committed at work.
Sneha Mandala [00:06:19]:
And, Unfortunately, that's not the case for many employees and in many businesses. So the one piece of advice that I would love to give to leaders as well as employees is that, when you can feel alive at work, why not chase that feeling? When you can make your work Feel not like work. Make your work feel more effortless. Why not chase that? And that is where the whole concept of flow state comes into picture. A flow Stuart, as described by a positive psychologist, is A point in time where you are your mind and your body are performing at their optimal levels because you're so engrossed In what you're doing, your attention as it's is at its peak. Your performance and your creativity levels are at their peak. So this Stuart is the only time when an individual can perform in the highest possible manner While their stress levels are the lowest, isn't that what we all want, that work to be producing amazing results while not burning out. That's what employees want.
Sneha Mandala [00:07:31]:
That's what leaders want. So how do you create the conditions of flow at work? Work. Employees do things. Look for things that you five to do at work And try as much as possible, try to do them in the way you love to do them. Add more drive to your work. Do more of the things that you love to do and add more authenticity at work. Try to do them as much as you can in the way you love to do it in your most natural state. And that is the exact same advice that I would love to give leaders too.
Sneha Mandala [00:08:11]:
How well do you know your employees? How driven do they currently feel at work? How comfortable are they feeling in order to bring their whole selves, their authentic selves at work. And I'm not asking you to change jobs overnight. That's not what I'm asking you to do. But adding a little bit more and, more drive and authenticity to what people are already doing, that's gonna make a ton of difference. That's gonna help them get into that flow state more often, spend more time in it, and, hence, you get extraordinary business results and happy engaged employees.
Stuart Webb [00:08:46]:
Good advice. Is there a a book or a course that really sort of led you to understand, particularly, the this flow state that you're talking about?
Sneha Mandala [00:08:55]:
Absolutely. My, there are 2 gurus really that I follow in this space, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who's considered the grandfather of flow. So he has a book called Flow. Definitely, it has all the foundations and the, neuroscience behind the flow state. I would Love to recommend this to your audience. And Mhmm. The other prominent figure in this field that I highly follow the work of is Steven Kotler. He has done amazing research and really addresses individuals who want to peak their performance while decreasing that those stress and burnout levels.
Sneha Mandala [00:09:33]:
All that I'm doing is taking, all of their research and their work and bringing it into a more corporate setting to help leaders and employees' experiences in everyday, work, really.
Stuart Webb [00:09:47]:
Brilliant. Stuart, that Webb we're we're coming towards the end of my, my 5 questions to you. And and the 5th question is the one that I often use to sort of, as as I say, Get out of jail five, and it's my opportunity to say there must be a question that you wish I had asked you by now already, and I haven't asked it. So I'm gonna ask you, What is the question that I should five asked? And then, obviously, you have to answer it because you're the only one here who can answer that question.
Sneha Mandala [00:10:12]:
Absolutely. The question I would love to be asked any day in any conversation is, what do People care about at work.
Stuart Webb [00:10:24]:
And what do people care about at work?
Sneha Mandala [00:10:28]:
You might think maybe it's their paycheck. Maybe it's connection, community. There's all sorts of different answers that, you know, you could get from different guests on your podcast for this question, but I would argue that in the basic terms, we spend Close to a 100000 hours at work in our lifetime. If you do the math of 40 hours per week on average, Close to a 100000 hours at work in a lifetime. That's equivalent to 11 years of your five. And no person It's thinking that, oh, I wish I spent these 11 years making as much money as possible or have as many connections as possible. No. What they're looking for is, I would love to enjoy and have fun In these 11 years of my life, that's what it really comes down to.
Sneha Mandala [00:11:29]:
What they really care about at their core level is For work to not feel like work, to work to be feeling like play, to work to feel like effortless.
Stuart Webb [00:11:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Sneha Mandala [00:11:42]:
That's what people care about.
Stuart Webb [00:11:44]:
That's brilliant, and I love the way that you put it. That's brilliant. Sneha, thank you so much spending a few minutes with us and for talking us through this stuff. I love what you're saying. Listen, everyone, if you would like to get on to the mailing list And hear about the upcoming talks that we've got with people such as Neha, please go to this link. That's h t p https colonforward/forward/link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. That's just a simple form. You just put this email address in.
Stuart Webb [00:12:17]:
You'll get onto the newsletter list, subscribe you to the podcast. You will get to see brilliant talks like this coming up. And if you've liked this, please like and subscribe and recommend it to Your friends and family. Sneha, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciated the insights that you brought about how to get our work culture to be something more like that flow state that you so, advocate. Thank you so much.
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Who is Edmund?
Edmund Bradford is a successful entrepreneur known for his expertise in online gaming and business consulting. With a degree from Warwick Business School, he has built a global client base, including prestigious universities and large corporations like Airbus. His work extends far beyond traditional business schools, as he conducts Middle East chat sessions and collaborates with diverse clients all over the world. Edmund's innovative approach and ability to work with complex international organizations have earned him a reputation as a highly sought-after consultant in the gaming and business industry.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Business schools and corporations face similar challenges.
05:28 Company teaches engineers profit through transformative game.
07:29 Deliberate practice crucial for learning; failure essential.
10:36 Misuse of strategy in business can mislead.
16:11 Debate on organization's values and stakeholder returns.
18:56 Ask about sustainability cup, involvement, and organizations.
21:30 Encouraging message about sustainability and business growth.
23:44 Announcing guest and expressing gratitude for event.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
www.market2Win.academy
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
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Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
sustainability, marketing, strategies, business schools, corporations, simulation games, university, competition, change management, leadership, consulting, SWOT analysis, deliberate practice, strategic planning, sustainable business, sustainability World Cup, education, training, workshops, postmortem analysis, leading change, force for good, innovation, adaptation, strategy execution, marketing plan, academic, corporate clients, economic strategy, profit generation, business sustainability
SPEAKERS
Edmund Bradford, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:21]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions over coffee, which is what I have In front of me here, I hope my Edmund has got something similar. It's Edmund, well done. I'm delighted today to be joined by Edmund Bradford. Edmund is, a hugely experienced founder, owner, and managing director of Market two Win, which produces sales and marketing and sustainability games for university business schools and corporations. It's gonna be a fascinating conversation. Not only that, he's the author of Marketing Navigation, How to Keep Your Marketing Plan on Course To implementation success, which I think is gonna be brilliant. I'll put links to that in the show notes. He's a guest speaker at many universities, Teaching associate at Warwick University, great university in England, and a judge at the International Business Awards.
Stuart Webb [00:01:13]:
And I know he's gonna make mention of some other Judging and things that he's gonna be doing. So, Ed Edmund, welcome to It's Not Rocket Science five questions over coffee.
Edmund Bradford [00:01:24]:
Thank you, Stuart. It's a pleasure to be here with you.
Stuart Webb [00:01:27]:
I'm I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Edward, do you want to just start off by trying to Describe, you know, who it is that you're trying to reach with with not only the stuff you don't market to win, but also all of the the the the university and And business school stuff that you that you help students with.
Edmund Bradford [00:01:42]:
Yeah. Sure. It's, I'll I'll try and keep it quick because it's not easy, question to answer, actually. I just I should I should tell I should tell him an introduction. But I think we have 2 we have 2 broad, kind of ideal clients if you like. So, One is on the academic side, the education side. So those are those business schools that that you mentioned at the Stuart. University business schools, wherever they are around the world.
Edmund Bradford [00:02:05]:
So our games are online, so they don't have to be, you know, a brilliant business school Like Warwick, they could be anywhere in the world, and our clients are are all over the place. I'm doing a a Middle East chat, after you after you finish here. So, yeah, University Business School is one type of client. And then on the corporate side, yeah, I think sort of, you know, the the the big Corporations are also really good good client for us. Airbus is one of our clients as well. So that type of big, you know, complicated International organization is also a great a great client for us to to work with.
Stuart Webb [00:02:39]:
And and and the work you do with these, Challenges, these these these cups, they're they're they're ways of of helping people as well, aren't they? They're things that you you bring to To to to really sort of help challenge people to think more about what they're trying to do.
Edmund Bradford [00:02:55]:
Yeah. I think, the sort of challenges that they have, I think I think that it's interesting because the the the challenge is very similar. Whether you're a business school or a big corporation, you're both competing in a very, intense, marketplace. Business schools, even in the UK, business schools have lots of competition, especially, sort of master's level, especially MBA level. It it goes right down to to under undergraduate level as well, often competing on a on a global stage. And the same, of course, with with big corporations. We know we know they they live in highly competitive and and fast changing market. So The the kind of challenge they both share in a way is is, you know, how to get control of that and how to develop a kind of proactive strategy to to get through all that.
Edmund Bradford [00:03:44]:
So, and and my my work, if you like, whether it's, As, you know, doing the game stuff or or just standing up there and and doing a bit of training. It's often around helping them to get a a a growth strategy together That will help them. Well, they do it now if it's a corporation or help them do it in the future, if they're if they're a student at the at the university. So finding a way through that. Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:04:08]:
Yeah. And so so what is it that that others are doing which which, you know, you find these approaches particularly with with things like market When I just put your website on the, on the screen for people to see, which is which is going across market to win coffee. Well, what is it You're finding that others are doing Webb where market to win, it does differently. What what what is it they try other people have tried before with which you're trying to sort of help them to get through?
Edmund Bradford [00:04:34]:
Yeah. I think, I mean, it's a it's a very good question. The I mean, the market, even my market, you know, if if I'm talking about developing, you know, strategies, it's a very crowded market. You know, they've got the big consultancies in there as well as, you know, individuals. And actually I mean, I I started Market Twin, 18 years ago, because, one of my big corporate clients at the time, we were doing some some strategy work with them, And we're doing the usual stuff of of coming in there, running a 2 day workshop with lots of, you know, lots of engineers and and over functions in the room. We'd produce, in this case, a marketing plan on a flip chart, you know, and then the we'd walk off, and I I know damn well that they're not gonna look at it for another 12 Until we have the next workshop. So I was I was thinking this, you know, this isn't right. And we actually went into a, a 2 day session with that with that Client Webb they actually it wasn't my session.
Edmund Bradford [00:05:28]:
It was another session run by another company, and they were teaching the engineers, how to understand profit. And what really made a difference was the fact they had a game, a little a little over simple table game that was used to help them learn profit, it was really transformative. The whole experience was transformative. And so I thought about that, and it's 18 years ago, that that what we need what I needed to do if I was going to help, You know, my clients understand, you know, the importance of of getting a business strategy, particularly an external market strategy right, is that, we needed to experience it a bit. And so we Webb developed a game, about 18 years ago, and we we started to to to to play with that. And and now the idea it's obviously evolved over over many many years, and so now the idea is is that we have teams of people playing this online game Against each other in a sort of a a fictionalized world, always based on a real industry, but we kind of gained it. And they they learn, you know, all the issues that you have to deal with as a, you know, as a chief marketing officer or as a CEO in in developing a successful and competitive strategy. So I think, And I think in a nutshell, you know, what what Webb do that others don't, it's the it's the game, and it and it gives them the the the skill, Not just the knowledge from reading books or attending lectures or going to training, but because we're practicing it, it gives you the practice Of of actually applying some of those those really good ideas.
Stuart Webb [00:06:54]:
Yeah. Deliberate practice.
Edmund Bradford [00:06:55]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's all in little cycles. You know? It's not it's not let's Let's read a book for 3 months and then execute for 3 months. It's about let's do that, you know, over you know, ideally, it could be a 2 day workshop, it could be if it's a university running it over over, you know, several weeks, during a during a semester. So, yeah, that that you know, learn it, practice it, learn it, practice it continuously over different decision rounds. Hopefully, at the end of it, everybody comes out with a bit more, bit more, you know, a bit better competence in the area and and, You know, with a bit of, enjoyment of the actual process as well.
Stuart Webb [00:07:29]:
Yeah. No. I absolutely agree. I think the the the act of practice, deliberate practice, I mean, it's it's a huge element of of learning, isn't it? Too many people learn by doing, and we don't give them enough opportunity to learn in Safeway in a safe an environment where failure is actually part of the learning process. I mean, I I often say to people I work with, clients of mine, You know, babies don't learn to walk by standing there and going, right now, I need to Stuart running. They fall on their bottoms several times. And as you get up from that, you think, well, that's not the way to do it. You know, the great quote of Edison, you know, on one of his experiments, it's failed when, you know, he started scribbling notes.
Stuart Webb [00:08:08]:
His assistant said to him, well, why are you talking about that? It was a failure. He said, yes. But if I wanna do that again, I now know how to do it. And that's a great example Sort of learning by doing something and and not necessarily getting it right, but saying, well, now I know what not to do Webb I know what to do different next time. Learning by doing is a huge Yeah. And
Edmund Bradford [00:08:26]:
I I I totally agree, Stuart. And and and I I sometimes learn it. You know, even in my own experience, when from looking at others, you learn more from failures When you do few successes. And and I know I know the world is full of, you know, examples of successful companies. You know, Apple is is is always mentioned, you You know, in marketing courses. But but I find that the companies that have failed, you know, the of this world, you know, the the Something that's sort of gone from success to failure very quick. I find that very fascinating. And how did that how did that happen, and what went wrong? And we can we can learn more from that, like a postmortem.
Edmund Bradford [00:09:02]:
There's a there's a great article on the Harvard Business Review about doing a a postmortem on a on a project. And we learn more from that postmortem Than we do on actually just just, you know, exploring successful companies. Because often, you know, I come five Apple. It's got the budget. It's got the experience. It's got the skills already there that we don't five, so maybe we can learn learn from looking at looking at failures.
Stuart Webb [00:09:23]:
Yeah. I I I I love your your your your idea of the the postmortem, I often I often think that we don't spend nearly enough time looking at those postmortems and learning from them, though. Too too many times people find that sort of, you know, Do the postmortem. Stick it on the shelf in a report. Never look at it again in the same way they don't look at their strategy ever again. It's a document written. I I like sometimes sort of encouraging people to do the what I call the premortem
Edmund Bradford [00:09:47]:
Yes. Which is,
Stuart Webb [00:09:47]:
you know, think about what could possibly go wrong Yes. Right now to avoid doing that. Know? Yes. Let's let's do the postmortem upfront. This has all gone horribly wrong. Right? Now let's find a way of not doing any of that. Yes.
Edmund Bradford [00:09:57]:
That's right. And I think that was that was the the the point behind the article I mentioned, I think, as well. They did. I think they looked at I think they looked at NASA and what went wrong with the with the Challenger, shuttle. And, yeah, and and And as as you know from reading the article, the issue is often about the culture in the organization, and the fact that the culture does not allow Webb know this in the UK. We see it in the post office. We see it in the NHS. The The culture doesn't allow, you know, criticism, whistle blowing.
Edmund Bradford [00:10:23]:
Yeah? It's five, no. So that's not that's not right. You know? It doesn't fit doesn't fit our thinking. So, yeah, so often the pre mortem is that is that idea of saying, well, you know, let's assume assume things go Webb, alright, what that look five, and what would what would bad look five? Yeah?
Stuart Webb [00:10:36]:
Yeah.
Edmund Bradford [00:10:36]:
And and then and then putting that back into back into back into your thinking. So, yeah, I mean, you know, there there's lots of different corners and angles and Those are aspects of of strategy, and and and I find the thing I found and it it probably I it probably intrigued a few years ago for me, Stuart. Haven't been in the business about 30 years. It only took me a few years a few years ago that that the job with strategy is it is is it's the most misused word in business. You you can add the word strategy to anything and think you've done it. So so I can have a pricing by putting the word strategy on the end of it. I can have a promotion strategy. I can have a Facebook strategy.
Edmund Bradford [00:11:15]:
I can have a digital a social media strategy. You know? Can have anything, any Stuart, by putting the word at the end of it, and and, therefore, I think, therefore, that I'm strategic. But the, the research has shown, actually, that that, Particularly, you know, marketers are are actually not very good at this at being strategic. And and worse than that, they don't know they're not very good. That's that's the problem.
Stuart Webb [00:11:37]:
I'm not gonna comment on those of us that haven't yet managed to work out that we are not quite as good as we think we are or indeed we're actually so stupid that we can't work out How good we are or not good at something, we'll leave that to, to politicians. So so so, Edmund, is there a there is there a valuable free gift you can leave people? I mean, obviously, we can go to market to win and learn a little bit more about what you're up to. But is there anything there that you can sort Point us to, which would be a a a great way of getting value from this idea of of approaching things with with a learning head on and the practice to go with it.
Edmund Bradford [00:12:12]:
Yep. Sure. There's 2 there's 2 2 places you can go to. So first of all, yeah, the market to win .com website's really good, if I don't say so myself. Webb are we are starting well, we are starting. What's interesting there is that we are starting a new Competition, in sustainability, which we haven't really talked about yet, but in sustainability. And I think sustainability has got a fascinating impact on strategy. And and, if you wanna participate in that competition, it's called the Sustainability World Cup.
Edmund Bradford [00:12:45]:
Just go to the Market2win Webb, go to our simulations menu, and you'll see the Sustainability World Cup under the simulations menu there. So, so go there. Have a look at that. Get in contact with us if you're interested in participating because that's gonna be running, from April, over few weeks. It's a really good opportunity for for you to Learn some of these these ideas. So that's that's option number 1. And option number 2, we actually have an academy site, Webb we we we put, you know, lots of videos and tutorials, etcetera, on there. And there's a couple of good free ones on there.
Edmund Bradford [00:13:20]:
So if you if you go also to www.market to win.academy, okay, which is a different website, then you'll see some interesting, you know, videos that we've done, on on different aspects of of strategy as well. Okay? So if you sign you just sign in for five, and and some of those tools are really good. Five, for example, we've got a really good Video on on how to do a good SWOT analysis, you know, which is always done badly Webb I when I look at them. So here there's a good video there, You know, your next swatch should be a better swatch than your your last swatch after watching that that that particular video.
Stuart Webb [00:13:56]:
I've I've Stuart my link on On there, which is www.market to win.academy.
Edmund Bradford [00:14:02]:
That's it. Thank you.
Stuart Webb [00:14:03]:
And, thoroughly suggest you go and check some of that because I know I've gone and looked at that, See, looked at the Sustainability Cup, which I hope we might get an opportunity to talk about if I if I if I come to a question in a minute where I ask You sort of, ask a question I shouldn't have asked. There's an opportunity for you, Edmund. Anyway, let's not let's not leap ahead. Obviously, you've you you're an author yourself. You've written a book. Are there any other Books or courses or anything else you think, people should be using as their inspiration for practicing in a safe way their strategies before they put them
Edmund Bradford [00:14:37]:
Yeah. I think, I mean, I'll I'll recommend a few. I think on the, on the sort of marketing side, should we say, There's there's this one, alright, which is which is this sort of bible. Yeah. That's Mark The Marketing Plans book. Okay. So that's by Professor Malcolm McDonald And Hugh Wilson. Alright.
Edmund Bradford [00:14:56]:
So that's that's a really good book in terms of how to write a marketing plan, a strategic marketing plan. That's the one that we mentioned at the Stuart, my one, if I if I can plug it on the execution side. Yeah. So that's how to execute your plan. So those 2 books together, Yeah. It's all about, you know, how to how to think about strategy, write it in a good plan, and and execute it.
Stuart Webb [00:15:17]:
And then do it.
Edmund Bradford [00:15:18]:
And do it. Yeah. And then the final one I'm gonna I'm gonna mention in terms of sort of the strategy stuff, which is which is more on the sustainability side. And, this is one that that that you can tell because I've got lots of, Post it notes in there. So Webb well read. That one's brilliant. I mean, that's about, you know, it's called Reimagine Capitalism, How Business Can Save the World, And it's it's trying to get to that sweet spot, which which we do in the the new Sustain to Win Simulation, which is about, you know, how do we Have a company that that, yeah, generates profits for shareholders, but is also a force for good in the world. Yeah.
Edmund Bradford [00:15:57]:
Very good. Rebecca Rebecca Henderson, professor Henderson, She's done a really good job of of of of talking about how that that can can be done. So those you know, if you if you wanna you know, 3 recommendations there, That that's that's those are really good books.
Stuart Webb [00:16:11]:
Obviously, we could spend the the the next 20 years debating how to make your your your You your organization, both a force for good and yet still return value to stakeholders. But let's, let's gloss over that, Before we get too deep in it, because I think that is a fascinating subject. I know it's a subject of many MBA theses in the past, some of which I'm sure you've been subjected to unless you've, unless you've managed to find your way out of that. So let's let's get on to our 4th question before we we get too deep, and I'd five to Spend more time talking about that one. But but is there a is there a a a a a question I haven't yet asked you? Is there something I haven't yet Sort of come to you and sort of said this is this is the killer question. If I was to give you the opportunity to what ask what that killer question was it, what would it be? And then, obviously, once you've asked it, you will be the only person that we could possibly turn to to answer it for.
Edmund Bradford [00:17:04]:
Yeah. I think I think the the question is what's the what's the hidden skill that you need to be a great leader, I would say. Yeah? For anyone that wants to be a great leader or whatever age you are. And I and I would say and I've been through all this myself, And and I and I was just very, very lucky in my early career, but it's catch with me all all through my life is is change. Yeah? Mhmm. If you whatever function you're in, whether it's finance, Law, you know, whatever you're doing, basically. Alright? Marketing, sustainability, whatever it is. If you wanna be successful in life, you have to Drive through change.
Edmund Bradford [00:17:37]:
And that doesn't mean to say that you need to be, you know, somebody upfront, an Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, anything like that. You know, Richard Branson, a famous A famous face. You you can lead change, as we used to call it in in my old days. You can lead from behind. Yeah? So the quiet you'd be do it quietly. So that is a that's a whole science, Stuart, of of of change. And, whatever you're doing, I think, you know, There's you're never too late to start reading up on that on that particular subject. My final book, nothing to do with me.
Edmund Bradford [00:18:08]:
Final book, I would say, you know, a good place to start is that That man there, John P. Kotter. That I probably don't have his latest book. That's probably an older version. But Leading Change by there we go. Try to get it on the slide. Leading Change by, on the screen, by John P. Coffee.
Edmund Bradford [00:18:21]:
Just go to his website. Go look up Leading Change, John P. Cotter. I think it's, kotter.com or something? But, he's got some really good principles of how to how to lead change. And, You know, everything you do, whether it's in your business life, personal life, whether it's social life, whether you're working in a sports club, you know, Whatever you're doing, it's about it's about, you know, changing things, processes, people, behaviors, organizations. Yeah. And that That is, the that's something everybody needs to understand.
Stuart Webb [00:18:56]:
Edmund, we've we've reached the end of the 5 questions have a copy, but But one thing I'm burning to ask you about is so I'm gonna deviate from my from my normal 5 questions gonna ask you a 6th question. Can you please give us a little more detail on what the sustainability cup is? Just just once again, tell us Webb do we find details, what it is you're looking for in terms of, of people sort of getting involved in that, and then I'll I'll promise I'll let you go, before I start then down the the the the path of how do we make organizations, in this capitalist world be both a force for good and force for change.
Edmund Bradford [00:19:28]:
Yeah. And that's that that that subject, by the way, Stuart, is is is is one that is has a lot of research. More research is needed, and and, you know, there's a lot of discussion about it. Not that's not definitely a closed subject. Yeah. So the the Sustainability World Cup is a is a is a new competition that we're putting together. It uses our new Sustain two Win simulation. So it's game game based game based learning.
Edmund Bradford [00:19:53]:
And, what we're looking for is for teams just like the World Cup. We're looking for teams from around the world To participate in in the World Cup, we're gonna have some nice awards handed out at the end. We've got a five bunch of judges, Stuart lined up, I believe.
Stuart Webb [00:20:11]:
Good. I figured that's right. I figured some of them are excellent.
Edmund Bradford [00:20:14]:
Yeah. Some of them might some Some of their excellent judges. We've got a fantastic set of judges to to to to judge it, and it's it's really it's 2 thing. It's a course and a competition. So, it's it's about playing the game. And just like, you know, just like anyone that plays our games, they they they learn from playing the game, but also so that's a serious side. Alright. I was in that's that's the serious five.
Edmund Bradford [00:20:36]:
But the fun the fun bit is is that because it's a game, There's there's some nice nice awards at the end. And, you know, there's some some great you know, how good it would be, wouldn't it, if if if someone on this call Signed up to play the game and ended up being our sort of sustainability leader, sustainability champion of 2024. I mean, what what a great title to have on their their CV. So, yeah, so a chance to practice some of the ideas, you know, that that that we've been talking about today in a safe environment. Yeah. And to and to to get there, Yeah. Just go to the market2win.com Webb, www.marketwin.com. Not the academy one, so that's on the coffee one.
Edmund Bradford [00:21:13]:
And, look for the simulations menu along the top, and you you see on the drop down, it will say the Sustainability World Cup. Okay. And go there and, sign up or or just drop me a message, and we'll be delighted to send you more information.
Stuart Webb [00:21:30]:
Edwin, I'm looking forward enormously to seeing what comes out of that. I know there's gonna be a sort of a a bit of a social media push, over the next few, few weeks to really sort of launch this. I think it's great initiative. I mean, it's brilliant not only for people in universities, schoolchildren, but also, you know, those who are Currently starting out in business to start to get a team around them to think about these challenges and to really push forward with How do you make your business sustainable? Not only sustainable for an environmental and, a a positive impact upon the world, But how do you make it sustainable so that in years to come, it's not some, unchanged, unwill unwanted commercial organization, But it's something that learns to adapt, change, generate ideas, innovate, and and continue. I mean, the the The the the fact that we don't have enough organizations that have been surviving 3, 4, or 500 years because they have learned to adapt and change and be adaptable, sometimes sometimes surprises me because we we do tend to coffee too short term. So I really hope that people grasp hold of the Sustainability World Cup, Look at it as an opportunity to start rethinking how to make the organization both a force for good in their community, in with their stakeholders, as well as continue to be profitable for years to come. Edwin, I think it's been a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes.
Stuart Webb [00:22:58]:
I know you are so busy. You are gonna rush off now And be all over the rest of the world trying to do the same thing.
Edmund Bradford [00:23:04]:
Yeah. I'm putting into actually, yeah, putting into action, Stuart. Yeah. Putting into action with the classic I love that.
Stuart Webb [00:23:08]:
I love that.
Edmund Bradford [00:23:08]:
The classic dudes. Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:23:10]:
Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. I I really appreciate it. And, listen, just 1 last comment. If you would like to join the newsletter Get information about some of the brilliant people we have. We had a comment about, about the book that Edmund represent suggested. So if you wanna get on, make comments, ask questions of the guest, go to this address, which is, link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk Forward slash newsletter. That's link .completes.co.ukforward/newsletter. You will get, an email from me.
Stuart Webb [00:23:44]:
Very simple. Just sort of announcing what's going on, who the guest is gonna be. So you get the opportunity to join, live on LinkedIn and show that, show that you get regrets like this. I'm just gonna show, Annie Dunning It's just coffee to you. It's always such an education to work with you, Ed, at the University of Portsmouth. So you're you're making your way all the way Warwick University to Portsmouth University in the blink of an eye. Brilliantly done, Ed. Thank you, Annie.
Edmund Bradford [00:24:10]:
That's very nice. Nice to meet you, Annie.
Stuart Webb [00:24:12]:
Coming coming on and letting us know that Ed is a a decent chap, to work with as he appears. And with that, Ed, I'm gonna let you go. Thank you so much spending a few minutes with us. I'm just gonna play the outro, and, I look forward to speaking to you again very soon.
Edmund Bradford [00:24:26]:
My pleasure.
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Who is Alfred?
Alfred Poor is a leading expert on the future of work and the impact of technology on business meetings. He is known for his research and insights on the increasing prevalence of online meetings, citing a report by the Gartner Group that predicted 75% of all business meetings would be held online. He emphasizes the convenience and accessibility of video meetings, particularly in the context of the pandemic. Alfred is dedicated to helping businesses adapt to these changes and thrive in the new work landscape.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Alfred Poor, health tech expert, discusses presentation capabilities.
04:16 Optimize camera angle and eye contact.
10:09 Project evolved to 75% solution for presentations.
12:00 Supporting new tech founders in pitching online.
14:35 Excited to be part of wonderful interviews.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
alfredpoor.com/video-meeting-blueprint
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/Np8ys9oIiRg?feature=share
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Alfred Poor, Health tech expert, Keynote speaker, 75% solution, Video meeting world, Technology, Presentation capabilities, Gartner Group, Online business meetings, Pandemic, Video meetings, Impressions, CEO, Executives, Zoom calls, Communication, Body language, Camera angle, Engaging, Intentional, Virtual events, Speaker skills, Presentations, Virtual presentations, Incremental improvements, Chief Technology Officers, Founders, Funding sources, Technology sectors, Startups, Passion.
SPEAKERS
Alfred Poor, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, Five questions over coffee. I'm delighted to have a returning guest this afternoon, Alfred Port. Alfred is a health tech expert, a keynote speaker. He has So many talents. It's gonna be impossible to list them all today. So what we're gonna do is we're just going to allow him to explain His, his his his HealthBeat and his some his 75% solution, which is the solution he has got for those people who are currently Having to adapt to the video meeting world and how you can make best use of your technology to prove your presentation capabilities. So, Alfred, welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five Questions Over Coffee.
Alfred Poor [00:01:07]:
Cheers to you. I'm so glad to be back.
Stuart Webb [00:01:11]:
I've got a I've got water in front of me at the moment because I probably have There's water
Alfred Poor [00:01:16]:
in here, but you can't tell.
Stuart Webb [00:01:19]:
Excellent. Alfred, I mean, you you I I introduced you there with the the 75 solution. Who who is the the solution aimed at? Who are you trying to help with this solution?
Alfred Poor [00:01:29]:
So the the the the key to that quest answer to that question is in the in the name. The 75% solution actually comes from a report by the Gartner Group. They came out with a report that predicted that for this year, 75% of all business meetings are going to be held online. That's internal and external. That's talking to investors, potential partners, customers, you know, staff, teams, management, whatever. And my whole point is that the pandemic gave us video meetings as a as a target of opportunity. It was easy to do. They're convenient, and and they don't take a lot of technical skill.
Alfred Poor [00:02:11]:
You just open up your laptop and have at it. My problem is that people aren't being intentional about how they present themselves in those settings. And if you're gonna be spending 75% of your meetings online, why wouldn't you want to make the most of that time? You're that's a huge investment of your time and money for your company. Why wouldn't you wanna maximize the benefit?
Stuart Webb [00:02:37]:
Brilliant question. And, you know, I look at so many people who are currently taking those. I I spoke to 1 executive who, Being being female had gone out and equipped herself with an entirely new wardrobe in order to make sure that she was presenting her best self on video, something which I have never considered myself. So, you know, what do you find in the people that are making those mistakes who who who don't try to maximize their their their best time and their best, best view when it comes to video meetings.
Alfred Poor [00:03:08]:
I I for me, the keyword is intention. Yeah. I don't think they're doing it intentionally, and that's the whole point. They're not intentional about the impression they make.
Stuart Webb [00:03:18]:
No. It's it's they're not talking
Alfred Poor [00:03:20]:
to people. Is We've all met CEOs and and executives and founders who you bring them into a boardroom for a presentation and they're just amazing. You put them up on stage and they just kill it. You know? Just audiences in their hand. You put them on a Zoom call, and it looks like they've joined witness protection. You know? They're just I don't think that they stop and think about whether or not what's coming through actually represents their brand, their company, Their their professional and personal image, and it's so easy to do it better. And Yeah. I would argue that when you do do it better, people notice.
Stuart Webb [00:04:02]:
Yeah. So it's that, It's that laptop on the desk with the view sort of strangely up the up the face, isn't it? It's the it's the poor, like yeah. That one. The that's the poor view.
Alfred Poor [00:04:16]:
I mean, you know, I I've yet to find anybody where the up and nose looking at the ceiling camera angle is is flattering. You know, when you look like this, it's more engaging. It's you know, people will be able to pay more attention to you and be making contact with him, you know, eye contact. There's a whole lot of pieces that go into it. But, you know, basically, You need to get your camera up so it's about eye level. You need to look at the camera, and you need to show more. You don't wanna just be this disembodied head because then you don't get the hand motions. You don't get the the body language.
Alfred Poor [00:04:54]:
You know, there's a whole lot missing in your communication, which which we count on.
Stuart Webb [00:04:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I'll find I and and and that's another great tip that you just sort of gave us there with the With old camera, isn't it? Because, you know, I'm now currently looking at you. The camera is actually above my screen. I have to consciously shift my gaze to a camera and not stare at the screen because otherwise, it looks as if I'm looking down. And it's a ridiculous it it just doesn't look right, does it? But If
Alfred Poor [00:05:24]:
somebody if you were in a conversation with somebody at an event or a meeting or whatever, and they were looking down like that and not at you, what would you think?
Stuart Webb [00:05:32]:
Yeah.
Alfred Poor [00:05:33]:
Yeah. Are they are they, you know, withdrawn or, you know, total paralyzed by by Introversion. I mean, you know, what what's going on with them? Why why aren't they looking at me? Now here's a if you want a quick, Almost no cost tip. To solve that, go to the your local store, gift shop, or whatever and get a pair of those little googly eyes that you can, you can stick onto anything, Stuart stick them up next to your camera. It'll give you eyes to look at and it'll make it much easier for you to to focus on the camera.
Stuart Webb [00:06:11]:
Great tip. I love it. Now I know you've got a you've got a valuable free offer it, I'm gonna just display this on the screen now. Tell us, what's on your valuable free offer? What is this thing that you can want Webb to do do with the with our video meetings?
Alfred Poor [00:06:24]:
So I tried to go through and create as comprehensive a list of the different factors that go into how to be more engaging, more influential, in your online meetings and presentations, and I laid them all out in what I call my video blueprint. So if you can go through and check all the boxes in that video blueprint, you're gonna end up having a much better presentation. You're gonna make a much better impression in in the course of it. This is this is my gift to your listeners.
Stuart Webb [00:06:56]:
So do you wanna just, read out what it says, on on the on the ticket going across the bottom of the screen so that you've got it for those people who are listening back and that haven't at the moment
Alfred Poor [00:07:07]:
See Alright. Just take us through
Stuart Webb [00:07:08]:
what we've got here. It's alphreypore.com
Alfred Poor [00:07:10]:
Yep.
Stuart Webb [00:07:11]:
Forward slash.
Alfred Poor [00:07:12]:
Alfred pore alphreypore.com/ video meeting blueprint. So it's video meeting.blueprint not dash blueprint. And alphore.com, nice and easy to remember that part.
Stuart Webb [00:07:27]:
Yeah. I I encourage you to go see that, and I will put this in the notes. It's alphore.com / video meeting blueprint. Dashes in between the the gaps where I pause there. So so go down go download. What what is this is just a series of tips and tricks that you can use that that ensures that you you get the very best out the 75% of the meetings you're currently gonna be having online
Alfred Poor [00:07:51]:
Right. I actually, I would say it's more A checklist for you to be intentional about.
Stuart Webb [00:07:59]:
Yeah. Okay.
Alfred Poor [00:07:59]:
You don't know what you don't know? So This gives you a list of things, oh, I never thought about. You know, should I be wearing stripes when I'm, you know, you know, finely striped clothes when I'm on camera? Probably not. But, you know, have you thought about what you're wearing? A lot of people just go on with what whatever they wear. When you well, first of all, this is my brand. So, but whenever you see me on on online on, you know, in a video setting, it's gonna be solid colors. It's gonna be In the blues and the grays for me, that's all by design. It's not it's not by accident. That's it's intentional.
Stuart Webb [00:08:38]:
I think that's a brilliant that's a great word you keep coming back to. That's the word intentional. You have to be intentional with these things, don't you? Barbara, was there a was it was was it this Gartner course, Gartner report, I mean, or anything else which really highlighted to you the importance of sort of Taking this step because I know that you're a you're a you're a really experienced speaker. Is is the world of speaking currently really being changed I I for this world.
Alfred Poor [00:09:04]:
Absolutely. I mean, this had its genesis years years ago. I've been doing virtual for probably 9 years now. I've done, you know, been a speaker at online conferences. I've produced my own online webinars and other events. I've produced, you know, online series of Presentations by other speakers. I actually produced a series of online trade shows about, for consumer electronics companies. So, and this was all pre pandemic, so, you know, I didn't jump to this because of the pandemic.
Alfred Poor [00:09:42]:
I already had these skills in my in in my kit bag, as you would. But so when the pandemic hit, I saw these other speakers saying, you know, all my on-site Gigs have been canceled. So I started doing workshops for them, showing them some of the key points about what you need to do to trans Trans transition between online, you know, on-site to online presentations.
Stuart Webb [00:10:08]:
Yep.
Alfred Poor [00:10:09]:
Yep. In doing that, it was very very well received, but in doing that, I realized I had a ton more than would fit in a 45 minute presentation. And So the project went through a number of different iterations and now exists as this 75% solution in which is intended to give found give executives and and teams the skills they need Starting wherever they they happen to be with whatever budget and skills and knowledge they have, what they can do to to make a better impression. I I follow what I call my, principle of the three i's for making improvements. Webb can make improvements, and this is beyond just presentations, but it Stuart that's how I came up with it, you want to make, improvements that are incremental. Don't try to do everything at once. Webb wanna make them intentional. There's the intentional again.
Alfred Poor [00:11:04]:
Don't just accept the default settings. And you wanna make them impactful. You wanna choose the ones that are gonna have the biggest impact. And so when I work with a client, I've helped them. It's not a course. It's not some series of things that they have to work through. I work with them custom and find the one thing that's gonna make the biggest difference for them, and we get that working. And then I find the next thing and the next thing and so forth.
Alfred Poor [00:11:29]:
And so it's continuous improvement and just gets better and better.
Stuart Webb [00:11:33]:
I love it. Alfred, I've I've asked you questions, and, you've answered them, but there must be 1 question that you're currently thinking. I wish you'd get around to asking because that's one that really sort of knows it. So what's the question that you're wishing I could ask? And, and then, obviously, asked the question you need to answer.
Alfred Poor [00:11:50]:
Well, I think it is, where's the passion come from for this project.
Stuart Webb [00:11:57]:
I like the question. I love the question.
Alfred Poor [00:12:00]:
And and for me, I've been working doing a lot of work with Stuart ups Because having worked with technology for as long as I have, I've been very excited to see the New companies coming along, the founders with their great ideas and how they wanna solve big problems with them. And the problem is that most of these founders are now having to make their pitches online, And this is life or death for their for their project. If they don't get the funding, and right now, funding is very tough for a lot of technology sectors. If they don't get the funding, that's you know, that could be the end of the dream. And so One of one of the motives behind the the 75% solution is to include founders in this, the ones who are just getting started. Help them think about the things that they hadn't thought about and so that they can be more effective when they're talking to funding sources because, you know, again, for them, it matters the most.
Stuart Webb [00:13:07]:
I love that. I love that. Alfred, as ever, it is brilliant to, to hear your views on things. You have some absolute gems of thoughts, And I love the fact that you bring passion to this, and you bring the the passion to help founders, people who who really have got to nail this and get it right in order to be able to get their company off the ground. I love I love the fact that you do that. I'm just gonna make an appeal at this point. If you are listening to this on replay or if you want Stuart, to To join the LinkedIn lines that we do on a regular basis, please, would you go to this, this link, which is a link .thecompleteapproach.co.uk forward slash newsletter. If you go to that URL, you will find a form that you can fill out.
Stuart Webb [00:13:55]:
Get you onto the newsletter list, and then we can keep you informed of who's coming up on these, weekly, Meetings and join and see the brilliant ideas that come through. There are so many brilliant ideas. Please come on. Please join that newsletter list and see brilliant people like Alfred Poor. And I encourage you, go to Alfred Poor's, website, afripoor.com forward slash video meeting blueprint. Download that blueprint, and make sure that you get a hold of his intentional things that you need to think about for your video meetings in the future. Alfred, I hope that was good, as good a summary as you're gonna get from anybody.
Alfred Poor [00:14:35]:
The best. The best. And I I just wanna underscore to to the audience that, you know, this is your Interviews are just great. You somehow managed to bring wonderful people and I'm actually honored to be part of that, and actually having to having get the opportunity to do it more than once. So, you know
Stuart Webb [00:14:56]:
You're very kind. You're very kind. I look forward to the next time we meet on a video call and, and and chat. But for now, everyone, thank you very much for joining us. I look forward to seeing you again next Time on, It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions of a coffee. you.
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Who is Jacqueline?
Jacqeline Conway is a successful marketing strategist who understands the struggle of feeling stuck in a professional rut. After her own experience of hitting a plateau in her career, she decided to use her knowledge and expertise to help others in similar situations with Conway Consulting. Through seminars and events, they empower individuals to set new goals and find their direction again. Jacqeline's passion for guiding others through professional challenges has made her a trusted mentor in the business community.
Key Takeaways
00:00 University, career, plateau, need direction, success, stuck.
03:54 Many seek mentorship, achieve impressive business success.
09:37 Transitioned from marketer to coaching business while pregnant.
11:33 Key to success is exceptional service for clients.
14:55 Business success is about serving your customers.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://conway.consulting/manifestwithconway
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/dhacjffgiG4
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
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Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
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————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software (and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Conway Consulting, Jacqueline Conway, brand strategist, marketing, music marketing, fashion marketing, search signature marketing, mentorship company, coaching, consulting, entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, real estate, finance, insurance, professional services, plateau, goallessness, seminars, events, inspiration, personal development, manifest, masterpiece, sprint goal, workbook, challenge, service, entrepreneurship, inverted energy, mentorships.
SPEAKERS
Jacqueline Conway, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:20]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five questions Over coffee. I'm delighted today, not only to have my coffee in front of me with, my bears on them, which are my my favorite bears in the world, But also to have Jacqueline Conway with me who is a marketer and brand strategist with Conway Consulting. She has a root a background in music and fashion marketing and has been working with comp clients through Coffee with their one day one sale a day club, bringing clients through their search signature marketing framework called The Brand Project. So, Jacqueline, Absolutely delighted to be here with you, and, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us this morning.
Jacqeline Conway [00:01:06]:
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat about, business and helping people and all the things. So it's Really? Great day to start chatting.
Stuart Webb [00:01:15]:
So, let's start with, let's start with what you do with with Conway. What what is what is who is it you're trying to help, and and and what's the problem they've got that you're trying to help them to overcome?
Jacqeline Conway [00:01:25]:
Sure. Sure. Well, do you mind if I set the table first and just explain what Conway is? Because I'm sure it's a little vague at this point for everyone. So Call Me Consulting is a elite mentorship company. It's, coaching, consulting, events. We do lots of different things, but Webb, support clients through helping them achieve their goals. And my husband, Dave, is the kind of I don't know. We call him the what do we call him? There's a really good slang that my team member calls him.
Jacqeline Conway [00:01:52]:
He's the show that makes the dough, so to speak. So he's the speaker. He's the coach. And then I, you know, help lead all the operations and marketing and product endeavors behind the scenes. So it's kinda like this, like, unification of us together. Like, both of us kinda bring our expertise, to the table to, you know, to create a really amazing experience for our clients.
Stuart Webb [00:02:13]:
And and who are those clients? What what what's the problem you're helping solve?
Jacqeline Conway [00:02:16]:
Sure. Sure. So our clients that we work with are typically already in business. So they're either entrepreneurs. They're potentially sometimes coaches or consultants. Lots of times, there's people working in the real estate real estate industry or finance or insurance, different kind of professional services like that. And the issue is that they're stuck. So typically, what will happen in life is, you know, you You go to high school.
Jacqeline Conway [00:02:40]:
You maybe go to university. You get a pro you get a job. You start working in your career, and it's almost like you start to plateau sometimes. It's like You need that goal or that, like, north star to direct you. And where people sometimes fall down is that they kinda knock down all these big goals and then they Start going and earning money income, have Stuart a family maybe, and then they suddenly Stuart of hit this roadblock where they're, like, not growing in the same way that they were before. And so I find when we run our seminars and our events, that's a common thread. It's something we hear a lot. It's like I've I've got some success under my belt, But I'm just stuck.
Jacqeline Conway [00:03:14]:
I'm not feeling inspired anymore. I've lost a bit of motivation. I need I need something to sort of, like, fuel my My mind and get me get me thinking differently, open up different ideas for myself. That's really common. So, the biggest challenge is really, Like, as we say, Coffee, goallessness. Because if we don't have this, like, really exciting, direction that we're moving toward, we don't We don't have that motivation and inspiration to keep going.
Stuart Webb [00:03:43]:
And and and what are the the the the the the clients you work with? What five they tried Before the hasn't quite worked Yeah. The decision about what you're doing with them in Conway.
Jacqeline Conway [00:03:54]:
Yep. Good question. I would say, Like, lots of them have done over programs or mentorships, like maybe they've done some mindsets, you know, work before. Maybe they've read a lot of books or they've gone to seminars. And so it's not that they're not trying to kind of solve this problem, to, like, really fall in love with a goal or to really get clear on their purpose and Some of the deeper understandings about life for themselves, they are doing these things, but sometimes it just the penny hasn't dropped yet. And suddenly they come into our ecosystem, into our sphere, and they hear information in a whole new way, and suddenly it starts to land. And Truly, you know, not to brag, we do get some really amazing results coming out of our client base. Five, we've seen people come in that are making, you know, maybe 8,000, $10,000 a month in their business.
Jacqeline Conway [00:04:35]:
And Today, they're over half $1,000,000 a month. That's one client that's been with us for about 3 years. We've got somebody that had our a successful finance, Webb management firm and started working with Dave and did a one day seminar and made over 350,000 in a single seminar. You know, we're seeing these, like, this explosive growth, and those results are are common. Like, there's many stories I could share about this transformation. And I think it's just The delivery mechanism of how we present the material. So if you are trying to, like, improve improve your life, improve your business, Coffee that sense of, like, ownership and growth in yourself and you're typically going after that. Coming into Conway seems to just sort of speed that up.
Stuart Webb [00:05:18]:
That's brilliant. That's absolutely brilliant. And I know, you have got a, an offer which would help people to understand a little bit about So which I'm gonna put on screen now. Webb, Stuart talk to us about what this is, in terms of, a quiz, I understand.
Jacqeline Conway [00:05:35]:
Well, it's a 21 day challenge, and it's called well, we have manifest with Conway. It's a 21 day manifestation challenge. And the whole thing is predicated around going after what I what we like to call like a sprint goal. So for the next 21 days, you set, you know, like a challenge for yourself, and it's over personal experience. You don't have to share it with anybody and you choose it yourself. It could be I wanna land, you know, 10 clients in the next 21 days. It could be I wanna, like, Reboot my personal brand in the next 21 days. I want to revolutionize my health.
Jacqeline Conway [00:06:04]:
I mean, you could you could do whatever you want with it. And, so you select that. There's a beautiful workbook that'll help you do that. It has prompts. It helps you work through what that goal is gonna be for yourself. And again, it's not daunting. It's just 21 days. That's it.
Jacqeline Conway [00:06:16]:
And then we'll email you every single day for those 21 days to keep you accountable, remind you to to do the, you know, the challenge work that's included in the workbook. And it's just our gift to help people start to to get that goal and start to feel maybe some of that inspiration that they might be missing right now.
Stuart Webb [00:06:32]:
Sounds, yeah, sounds like something we should avoid doing, actually, to be honest. And, maybe maybe we'll we'll try and encourage a few more people to get on to the to the to the website and, and pick up, that challenge to try and push push through through that. And it sounds like you get some really great results.
Jacqeline Conway [00:06:49]:
That's right. Great results with this challenge. Even, you know, people that send us, you know, their their wins. Someone said that they had, like, Dropped, like, weight. Some like, some people use it for weight loss. Someone was saying that they landed x number of clients, even internally in our team, we used it for a particular launch as a team. We were five, let's use the 21 day sprint model to, like, help us, like, do this launch and then we had, like, the best results we ever had. Because what it does is it just starts to focus your mind to and then To the exclusion of noise.
Jacqeline Conway [00:07:23]:
You know? It's just like, okay, I'm really gonna go all in on this 21 day sprint for myself. And I'm gonna ignore any other Ideas that Five that are trying to pull at me right now. Because as you know, like, we can get distracted. Our focus can get pulled around. Right? And so what this does is it really helps you what we like to say, it's like five extra focus. It's like it helps you just 0 in on this, like, one thing that you really wanna accomplish and achieve, And it just takes all this powerful energy in your mind and focuses it. So that's what it'll help people do.
Stuart Webb [00:07:52]:
Love it. I love it. I encourage people to get on to conway.consulting, forward slash manifest with Coffee, and have a look at that challenge. Is there is there a a a book or program that sort of began to spark your interest in how to help people do this? Was there something which the original, original thing that that got you to this, I think you'd like to share with the audience.
Jacqeline Conway [00:08:15]:
Yeah. Sure. Well, you know, Dave and I have an interesting story. So, like, I used to work in music marketing. Dave used to actually be a carpenter. So we had very different five, about 6 years ago. And Dave was has always been interested in personal development and Read a lot of, like, Napoleon Hill's work and Earl Nightingale's, and Bob Proctor was his, like, all time favorite. And he Said to me in 2017, he's like, you need to come to we need to go to the seminar Webb in LA with Bob.
Jacqeline Conway [00:08:43]:
And me being sort of five the burnt out, tired mom, I was just five, like, you can go to the seminar. I'll come with you, but I'm just gonna go to the beach. You enjoy it, and then, like, we'll hang out at night. He's like, no. No. No. No. That's not how this works.
Jacqeline Conway [00:08:55]:
Like, We go to this together. And I was like, okay. Because I've always, you know, I've always been supportive. So we went to the seminar together with Bob, and we kinda mark that Seminar is, like, really the the date when our life really transformed. So that was the date when Dave decided to become coach, And I remember leaving that event and being just sort of, like, observant of my life at that point. It was almost like I was like, yeah. Why am I doing the things I'm doing? Why am I why am I, thinking I've got everything figured out when I Clearly don't. You know? It it was a very humbling experience, and it was also just, this opportunity to zoom out and really look at my life.
Jacqeline Conway [00:09:37]:
So one day we had the decision to become a coach, I'm a bit an event marketer, and so I said, well, I'll help you. I'll help you with your business. And here I am, you know, years later kind of running the company, but, I was like, I'll help you run, you know, seminars and workshops and, you know, I know that world. You know, I've been in events marketing world for over. So I I'll help you with that. And, you know, he was still working as a carpenter, and then we ran the seminar together. It was actually This the last day of my my very last day of my previous job was the 1st day of was the day of our 1st seminar, which is kind of poetic in a way. And, it was because I was pregnant.
Jacqeline Conway [00:10:12]:
I was going on maternity leave. So that was, like, my last day of work and that was our 1st seminar. And remember Dave tells the story really funny, but he's like, I installed a kitchen that day as a carpenter and I made $400. And then that night, I went and did a personal development talk, And I made $20,000. And, like, we sold 4 clients for $5,000, and that was, like, our first event. And so it was kinda like, wow. You know, there's A real opportunity here not only to help and serve people, but to earn the income that we want and to, you know, put all these amazing skills we have to work as well. So that was our very first event, Webb.
Jacqeline Conway [00:10:47]:
And now flash forward to today and, you know, we work with hundreds of clients. We've served thousands of people. We produce mastermind events all over North America called freedom mastermind and vision maker, and we do these amazing events for people. And, it all started because somebody asked us to just dream, which is really, really cool. So that's why we tell people to do the same thing. Just Start to think, start to dream again because you can let yourself go free for a little while and suddenly, like, a lot of magic can start to pour in.
Stuart Webb [00:11:18]:
I love the story. There must be a question at the moment that you're wondering why I haven't asked you. So so my 5th question to you is is what's the question I should by now have asked you? And, obviously, once you worked out what that question is, you really I'd really love you to answer it for.
Jacqeline Conway [00:11:33]:
Sure. Sure. I would say the question, An important question that any person can ask themselves in business is, well, what's the key to my success? Ask them to themselves, like, who I coffee is the key to my success. And if I was to ask myself that question, what has been the key to our success thus far and what I think will continue to be the key to our success is service. Always focusing on the service of others, helping them gain the knowledge and understanding of, What's what's holding them back? Five, that when I mentioned goallessness being one of the main things that holds people back a lot of the time. And I know that when we lean into this idea of providing exceptional service, excellence in service, just everything falls into place because It's really not about me or the founder. It's always about the clients. It's all about the people.
Jacqeline Conway [00:12:23]:
So we just always keep top of mind What is the best thing for our clients? What's the best experience we can possibly create? How can we surprise and delight people all the time? How can we make them feel seen and heard and appreciated and just put as much energy and effort into into them as we can. So that's what I feel are key to success is, but I think everyone should ask themselves that question.
Stuart Webb [00:12:46]:
Hi. It's a brilliant question to ask. Actually, I really love the idea of asking that question. What is this? And and so many businesses, I think, fail To do that, I I I, I've I've worked with a with a couple of business owners recently, and the first question I asked is, so So what is it that you do which is which is different to others? Why are you in the business? And when they don't give you an answer, you know that Somehow, there's not gonna be the sort of legs to really drive through to some scale, is it? Because people, if they don't have that passion, if they're not keen, if they don't really recognize What they're gonna do to sort of change the five of other people and how they're there to serve them. They can never ever make a success of what they're trying to do.
Jacqeline Conway [00:13:27]:
That's right. Well, a lot of problem a big problem in entrepreneurship is what we like to describe as, like, inverted energy, where people worry too much about themselves And they don't just release their passion and their and their service into the market because if you're struggling with something, if you're having if you're if you're, Five doubting or if you're, like, feeling fearful about I'm not making enough money this month, I'm not serving or I'm not the money's not coming in or something like that. That just means that you're just thinking about yourself. And if you were to go out and just start to serve others and release energy out into the market, the money will come in. It's just just how it works. You deliver service. The money comes in. Is it always to the direct five that you serve in? Not always.
Jacqeline Conway [00:14:08]:
That's always been our experience. Sometimes, honestly, this is kinda nuts, but We'll do workshops for thousands of people, and not very many people will sign up for mentorships. And then suddenly, 5 clients will just come out of the woodwork, Hi, elite clients, and we're like, well, this is very interesting. I mean, that's kind of funny, isn't it? And so We always look at those situations and we always analyze them and we're like, well, how come this didn't necessarily attract the people, but they still came anyway? So you always have to just look at Are you releasing energy? Are you just in service of people? Are you are you, inverting your energy? Or, you know, anytime we have fear, doubt, worry, That just means we've just entered into a state of almost five selfishness. And it's like, well, no. Just get out there and help somebody, and suddenly the problem will likely just go away.
Stuart Webb [00:14:55]:
Well, you hear it heard it here. You know, if you're not in business, to help others, if you're not thinking of your clients first, If you're not thinking what it is you're there to do to serve your customer, you are burning out, and, you need To rethink why you're in business, and I love that message. Jacqueline, I really I really love the energy you've given off today and the way that you put that. I think it's it's fantastic. Thank you so much for just spending a few minutes with us today talking about that. I am just gonna invite people. If, if there is, If you wanna get an email from me on a Monday, it goes out on Monday telling you who's coming up on the podcast on Tuesday so that you can prepare to To watch these brilliant show and catch up with past issues, please go on to our newsletter. That's at link dotthecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter.
Stuart Webb [00:15:49]:
That's link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter, And and get yourself on that list so you too can hear brilliant people like Jacqueline come here and tell us about the wonderful things they're doing Jacqueline, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us.
Jacqeline Conway [00:16:05]:
Webb We
Stuart Webb [00:16:06]:
really appreciate the time you spent.
Jacqeline Conway [00:16:07]:
Thank you very much.
Stuart Webb [00:16:09]:
And, look, we'll we'll we'll we we'll keep in touch. We'll see what other things you're up to at Conway Consulting.
Jacqeline Conway [00:16:16]:
Sounds good. I love it.
Stuart Webb [00:16:17]:
Speak to you very soon.
Jacqeline Conway [00:16:19]:
Take care.
Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe -
Who is Tiago?
Tiago Faria is a digital marketing expert who specializes in helping professionals in the help industry, such as coaches, mentors, and consultants, to achieve profound transformations and charge a premium for their services. His ideal clients are those who rely on passive word-of-mouth referrals and are seeking to expand their reach through digital marketing strategies. Tiago's mission is to alleviate the anxiety of starting fresh every month and help his clients establish a consistent online presence through daily content creation."
Key Takeaways
00:00 Ideal customers: help industry, focused on transformation, digital marketing.
05:38 Investing in ads without proven results problematic.
07:25 Focus on serving individuals to maximize satisfaction.
10:05 Marketing strategy focuses on leveraging existing assets.
15:30 Resolving issues and persevering with a mentor.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://tiagofaria.pt/calls
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/dhacjffgiG4
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
Find out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguest
Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
Help us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!
Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
consultant, business mentor, coach, help industry, coaches, mentors, consultants, service providers, digital marketing, passive word-of-mouth referrals, consistency, marketing strategies, daily content, ad hoc freelancers, digital marketing courses, qualified leads, internet gurus, shiny objects, ideal customer, specific niche, proven offer, lifetime value, vision, outcome independent, accountability, focus, 80/20, distractions, networking, referral programs, proactive incentivizing, emotional words.
SPEAKERS
Tiago Faria, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:18]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions over coffee. I'm delighted today To be joined by Tiago Faria. I hope I pronounced that correctly, Tiago. I'm
Tiago Faria [00:00:29]:
sure you're correct here if
Stuart Webb [00:00:30]:
I'm wrong. We have in front of us our our drinks. Tiago, as you can see, is drinking a nice mug. Is it coffee, Tiago?
Tiago Faria [00:00:37]:
It's coffee. Yeah. It's coffee, In a in a nice Belarusian, mug.
Stuart Webb [00:00:41]:
Oh, oh, oh, wow. I am having, I'm having a very healthy, A cup of water with some lime in it. We're we're starting well. I've gotta keep my voice going out. I've, cold up a couple of days, but Delighted to be welcoming you, Tiago. You're a you're a business mentor, coach, helping people in the in the in the the results outcome Help community. So I'm delighted to to welcome you today to this and to talk about the work and the way in which you help people to achieve what they're trying to achieve. So welcome to It's Not Rocket Science, 5 questions over coffee.
Tiago Faria [00:01:14]:
Thank you, Stuart. It's a true pleasure to be here, and I'm looking forward to these 5 questions. They they look very fun.
Stuart Webb [00:01:20]:
Well, let's start with a nice easy one. So who is the customer that you are trying to help? What's the what's the problem that they've got that you're trying to help them to solve?
Tiago Faria [00:01:29]:
Yeah. So my ideal customer is so as you said, someone that works in the help industry as, some people call it, which is simply people that help others, Get some results, some specific results, or solve some specific problem like coaches, mentors, consultants, even service providers. But those are focused on, profound transformation so that they charge a premium for it. So high ticket, these people who are working that area. And, usually, the the people that I work with are, most of their business usually comes from passive word-of-mouth referrals, and they're kind of worried that Those might dry out at some point, and Mhmm. They're a bit tired of the anxiety of starting every month from 0. And then so they've been trying to resort into some kind of a Digital marketing, strategies. And, so they've been trying to publish daily content.
Tiago Faria [00:02:20]:
They hired some ad hoc freelancers, Bought some digital marketing courses, but somehow, nothing really seems to be bringing qualified leads in a consistent basis. And and, also, they've been been bombarded by the Internet gurus sending them very coffee, confusing strategies. And so they feel that that losing their time, they're getting exhausted and because lack of of consistent results. Just here and there, but nothing consistent. Mhmm. And the that's their biggest change.
Stuart Webb [00:02:48]:
Consistency is a problem because most of us in in these sort of fields find that we sort of go through these feats of famine, don't we? We have we have a period when we have a lot of work. We're very busy, but we then don't get around to doing the thinking about what we need to do for the next period, and then Suddenly, the work five up and you look around and think, well, where is where's all the work gonna come from now? So that consistency is a really important message, isn't it?
Tiago Faria [00:03:12]:
Yeah. Absolutely. It's, it's the the what keeps us going. Right? And and if we don't reach that specific level, it's, it's hard for for us to keep motivated, and then some people just, you know, just quit quit because, okay, she's not bringing exactly what I wanted. I tried so many things. Nothing works. And it's a very easy trap to go into this kind of Chasing the shiny objects. Like, this strategy seems more complex and a faster button.
Tiago Faria [00:03:34]:
Right? I'm gonna try this. Well, I didn't work immediately. I'm gonna try the complete different thing. And it's a trap that you get involved in, and, it's very hard to to get out of. And I was wondering if this is
Stuart Webb [00:03:45]:
So what is it that you, that you think that most these people that your help have done before you you you they they they they turn to to what you try to do to help them together. What what what are the mistakes they've made? What are the things they tried to do which which haven't necessarily worked for me.
Tiago Faria [00:04:01]:
Yeah. So the main thing that, I I was also guilty myself, and the most people I talk to still have this tendency is to to try to help everyone. They they questions themselves as, like, a coach or a, Consultants, and they are not very specific into in terms of who they actually help. And they just keep accepting anyone that just pays them money. Right? So that's they're my niche is whoever pays me. And this is is problematic because, number 1, if you're too generic, No one actually resonates with your message, so it's hard for you to to communicate and then to over to sell it. You're basically trying to I have a view here of of a over, Tagus River in Lisbon. It's like, you you like using a huge five net with huge holes to try to capture all the fish in in this river, But then all of them go through the nets.
Tiago Faria [00:04:50]:
Right? So you end up just catching 1 or 2, you know, by by chance, versus if you try to cap capture a, I forgot how to say, like, a a group of specific fish that, you know, that that share the same same species of five, and then you just use a shorter fishnet, and you capture all of them, Mike. And that's the difference of the approach because you actually know exactly who you're serving, and your message will resonate. They will feel attracted to you because you know them more than better than anyone else. And that that's the that's the the way to go. But, that's the main one of the main issues is trying to help everyone. And then because you try to help everyone, it creates a problem for yourself because you'll just accept anyone. And then most of the times, That persons might not be your ideal client. You might not be able to help them as much as you can, the best you can, or you attract people that you cannot actually helping them.
Tiago Faria [00:05:38]:
It's, it's a problem because, they pay you money. You you cannot generate results. You won't get testimonials. They'll be unhappy. And in in this industry, the results industry or Webb we are, it's it's a problematic, and it's not a place that you would like to to be on. And then so the the second mistake that I I feel that is a a trap we fall into Is is to invest in ads without having a proven offer, something that you already proven that works consistently, that you can generate results consistently, that people Resonate with the the the it's easy to sell, easy to over, and, and you also don't have a proven lifetime value of your clients, like, you don't have you you solve 1 problem, but then you have another solution for the new problem that you create. So you don't have the lifetime value of the client calculated, which is a problem for you too when investing ads Because you don't you don't know exactly how much you can spend on ads, you don't have a proven funnel that will make it all work. So when you when you're at the beginning stages, using ads is like pouring gas on a on a pile of sticks, like Miles Bekker says.
Tiago Faria [00:06:43]:
And you just get you get you just get a Wet five of 6. Right? Nothing will happen because there was no flame. There was no nothing to combust, and that flame is usually the The the proven coffee, an offer that works Yeah. That consistently works. So it's another trap that, many people make.
Stuart Webb [00:06:59]:
You You you're so right, Tioga, and I and I and I I love the way that you're putting it because, I've often said this with customers Webb I when I speak to to to major businesses. I work with some some some very, very big custom and and even the big businesses, when you turn around and say, who's your ideal customer, they'll often turn around and you what, we can serve anyone, and it's not true. You can't serve anyone. It's just not possible. And You can
Tiago Faria [00:07:23]:
serve anyone. I mean
Stuart Webb [00:07:25]:
It it's it's it's it's a way to And you're right that by trying to serve too many people, you don't end up with those hyper hyper happy, very satisfied customers who will then be prepared to go out, Become your your ambassadors who will preach to the rest of the world about just what a wonderful service you do. And if you can target individuals Over down to sort of the right person within, within an organization who will then become the most satisfied customer you can, They will end up being the best advert that you can and with that proven coffee, with a with a with a solution and Five often said this people. I was talking to somebody not so long ago, and I said they told me they hated selling, and I said, well, stop selling. Listen. Well, what do you mean? How will I get customers? And I said Stuart helping. If you have a proven offer, which is a solution to a problem, find the person with the problem, And don't say, can I help you sell it? Reach across to them and say, would you like help solving your problem? And if you've got the solution to their problem, they will ask to buy it from you.
Tiago Faria [00:08:26]:
And
Stuart Webb [00:08:26]:
so it becomes much easier to work with your customers if you've got something you know will solve their problem. You know they've got a problem, and then you just reach out and say, can I help? And they will buy from you if you have got the right solution. And so often people look at you as if to say, I don't even know how to find those people, but it starts with knowing what the problem is that you're solving and knowing that your solution is the solution for that problem.
Tiago Faria [00:08:53]:
Yeah. Absolutely. You really are only as good as as your clients will allow you to be. Right? Absolutely. If you don't generate results, You're in trouble.
Stuart Webb [00:09:02]:
It's Absolutely.
Tiago Faria [00:09:03]:
It's not a long term way to have a business. You really have to focus on bringing only the right people, the ones that you feel I can easily transform this person. She has all the motivation and the skills, the resources. That makes everyone's lives easier, and we rarely focus on that. Right? We are constantly focusing on new clients, cold audiences, selling, sell, sell, sell, sell Webb and disregard this part of okay. But what about the results? What about the Yeah. Congratulations and the testimonials and case studies and etcetera. It's a problem.
Tiago Faria [00:09:32]:
Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:09:32]:
What a what a great message. Thiago, I know you have, you have an offer, and that is a A free call, should anybody want to have a, Stuart to understand a little bit more about what you can to help with and and just tell me, I believe this is the, the Yes. URL they can reach in order to have that free call with you. Tiago, that's t I a g o f a r I a dot p t Slash call. Tell me what happens during that, that call? How long does it take, and what is it you're trying to help your your clients do when you speak to them?
Tiago Faria [00:10:05]:
Yeah. So it usually takes half an hour. I I five to first of all, I love to meet new people in this in this industry. It's just super interesting for me. And, of course, I'd like to have make a couple of questions just to understand the goals, the objectives, what what I've been trying to do before that didn't work. And I try to understand what what are the current assets because my my anti marketing method is based on, you don't need anything else other than what you already have in your current world, like your current contacts, audience, and network, to to have a over fun sustainable to grow a very fun and sustainable business. So we try to look at, okay, what are your current contacts, how many clients you've had before, what is the size of your audience, and then I can calculate, okay, I think we have here something to work on, because if we have past clients, if you have past leads that you've worked with, though, that's usually the starting point for my strategy. And it's actually something that I can share now that is, a valuable five act free, action that Yes.
Tiago Faria [00:11:01]:
The the audience could implement, which is So like we talked to you initially, choose a very specific niche. Right? The person, the problem you try to solve. And then you simply reach out to your current network of past clients, past leads, even your audience, network you have around you. And you simply interview people, 5 to 10 people that you feel are Very well suited for your niche. And you ask them questions, like, about their about their symptoms. What what are the main obstacles? What did he feel? What five you been trying to do that doesn't work? What what do they actually wish to achieve? Because simply by the fact that you're interviewing people in your niche, You will collect the emotional words, the, the actual feelings that people have that later you can use to create your offer. If you reflect exactly what the market wants and needs, it will be so much easier to sell, you know, to create something that they will actually want to buy now. Right? That's That's so key for us to to create offers, because we're so ingrained, and we usually stay in our head.
Tiago Faria [00:11:58]:
And Webb we think we create something, now people have to buy it, which and we should invert that process. And you'll find out very easy that everyone loves to give their opinion, their feedback. And if it's a short call, it's easy yes for them to for you to interview. And you you you get lots of wins out of this simple exercise. You you you craft an offer around that. You go back to them and you can say, hey. Just create this offer that solves the problem you told me you had. What do you think about it? You can actually start selling immediately there.
Tiago Faria [00:12:26]:
And then For people that say yes, you sell it to them. For people that don't want it or don't need it, you can also ask them, but you know anyone else would be interested in this? And so you create here a network of refers and, which is perfect. It's
Stuart Webb [00:12:40]:
Absolutely fantastic. Spot on advice, Tiago. Five I love the value you five there. It is so simple to to implement and and just, you you as you say, reaching out to somebody and just saying, can we spend 15 minutes just just so that I can understand your problem, so that I can I can work out ways you can even do a a networking event that you're attending Today, just, you know, the the when you're handing over your business card, just say to them, what's the major problem that you're facing at the moment in in growing your practice? And if somebody turns around five you just 2 or 3 sentences, use those sentences, use those words to sort of craft your coffee, and then you can put them into those ads that you were talking about, can't you, Tiago? If you're currently facing this problem, people will resonate with that because those are the words that they are themselves using. Once again, you've solved 222 problems with 1 with 1 conversation.
Tiago Faria [00:13:32]:
You became a popular writer. Yeah. It's amazing.
Stuart Webb [00:13:34]:
I think Tiago, what is it that, is it is it a book or a program, a course, something like that, which which brought you to the understanding of of your, and I love the words, the anti marketing method. What was it that that helped you form that?
Tiago Faria [00:13:50]:
Absolutely. I, I got it right here with me. It's a book by mister Jay Abraham, getting everything you can out of all you've got. And that's that's last sentence that inspired me. All you've got. So what do we have around us? Right? It talks a lot about this reaching out to past clients, so to your network, creating referral programs, proactive, and incentivizing people to refer you and become your sales team. It talks about lots of things that are super interesting, like, the basis of marketing and sales, five, the timeless strategies, five, the 3 ways to grow a business, the The lifetime value, creating an irresistible offer that is so crucial, with the help of of people around you, networking referrals. So This this book is really gold.
Tiago Faria [00:14:32]:
It's like, in the all his brain most of his brain is here. And it's a very, underrated book. Think I I haven't seen it that much. But, yeah, I definitely advise,
Stuart Webb [00:14:43]:
JJ. Such a good such a good author, such a such a of knowledge in this in this area, isn't it?
Tiago Faria [00:14:50]:
Absolutely. I really love them when they consume everything he he sends up.
Stuart Webb [00:14:54]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, we've kind of reached the the 5th question of my five, and, this is my, this is my simple one because, up until now, I've had to be thinking of the questions and now what I want to do is is suggest that perhaps there's a question that I haven't thought of that you would like me to ask you and obviously Once you've given me the question that you want me to ask, you'll have to answer it. So this is where I sit back and sort of relax a bit whilst you're doing all the work. So What's that question that I should've asked that you, that you've that you've not been given so far? And and and what is that answer, Tiago?
Tiago Faria [00:15:30]:
Yes, Stuart. It's a amazing question. I was thinking about it. We we sent it before, and, it's something I I would love to that someone Told me before when I was starting out, it would save me a ton of headaches is which is a questions that almost nobody ask who's which is, how to how to go how to go on when Nothing is working. Like, when when things go wrong, when when clients are upset, when, you do some some tail some some tests and it doesn't work, a campaign doesn't work, Five, how do you do how do you how do you go by and, how do you not quit suddenly and then start doing crazy things and reactive and go to? That's not, like, a super important question. And I and I thought here about a simple process that we could think about. But at least I add I did it for myself and probably it will work with someone else, Which is, first of all, with my mentor I worked with my mentor, and he told me, okay. Let's create a vision.
Tiago Faria [00:16:20]:
A vision is so important to have something something clear in your mind Webb you're going, why you're doing what you're doing, How would your life be like after the storm? Right? So know exactly where you're going. It it's it keeps you immune to distractions, to, to accidents, to I don't know. It just keeps you going. It's it's super important. And then getting the skills of, Actually, I I've learned I've learned with, Jim Braun to you should work harder on yourself than on your business. So that's that's something to keep in mind all the time. So I I I I I practiced to myself to to start becoming outcome independent. So no matter what happens, I'm gonna keep doing what I five planned.
Tiago Faria [00:16:59]:
If it doesn't work immediately, it's fine. Just keep going. Just keep going. And also how to how to remain calm. This is also super important too Because things will hap crap will happen for sure in the business, in entrepreneurship. It always does. So if you if you train yourself to become calm and not Reactive all the five. If something bad happens, things become much easier.
Tiago Faria [00:17:22]:
And how do you do that to be to remain calm is to so we have a vision. We should also have a plan of a simple plan, a very simple plan five the strategy I I use here and something that you do daily no matter what. Very simple steps. Like, 3 things you do in a day. 1 for marketing, 1 for sales, 1 for, you know, delivery of your services or whatever. And if you if you stick to it, a simple plan that you know that you can do, that you don't stretch yourself too too thin and you're consistent no matter what happens, Usually, things things things Stuart working and the the, the compound effect effect takes takes takes place, and, You will reach your goals faster than you expected.
Stuart Webb [00:18:02]:
I've just put on screen, Thiago, a question that's come in from from LinkedIn, which is Paul Burton who Said, isn't a consultant just someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time? And I think I think you were addressing some of what, Paul is talking about with, That, that last coffee. And it's true that very often, we as coaches, consultants, mentors, End up telling somebody, what they already know. They know they should have a simple structured plan to their day, that they should spend x amount of time working on their marketing. They should be spending time doing those things. The problem is that very often, despite the fact they've got the watch, they're not looking at it because there's so much going on around them. So The advantage of the outside help that somebody comes in from outside to sit beside that that business owner, that coach, And just remind them of what they're supposed to be doing. It takes away the it takes away their busyness, it takes away their focus from The the the the day to day struggle that they have and reminds them that they've got the watch on their wrist, they need to look at their watch. I object to the to the consultants who take the watch away.
Stuart Webb [00:19:17]:
I prefer to leave the watch very definitely with the business owner, But just remind them to look at it and spend time thinking. I think too many consultants have in the past removed the the the agency from the business owner and said, I'll do that for you. But in actual fact, our job is to help them to do it themselves. I don't know what you think.
Tiago Faria [00:19:39]:
Yeah. I think the key word here for coaches, consultants, etcetera, is your You're, remain your clients accountable. I think that's all we need. Because all information is already available. You can just YouTube, Google everything. There's nothing new that you can create nowadays. It's mostly the the fact that you keep the person accountable. You You unlock when she has some issue.
Tiago Faria [00:20:01]:
You keep her focused, like you said. Like, focused on the 3 things you should do today or whatever is the 80/20, that actually brings results and keep them from all the distractions that that come about the the day. And it's actually that. We're just, accountability coaches, basically.
Stuart Webb [00:20:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Tiago, this I think it's been a fascinating discussion. I thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. I would just just now direct people excuse me. A bit of a frog. I send out a newsletter each week telling you about the The person that's gonna come on and talk to us on, on this call each week.
Stuart Webb [00:20:38]:
And if you'd like to get from me, an email, which Just points out who's gonna be on so that you could join the the call five Paul, and just ask questions that you would like to. The link to do that is on screen now, it's httpscolonforward/forward/link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/ Newsletter. That's link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. Get on there. Join the newsletter list, and then it's available, you'll get notification each week about who's coming on to the call and how to join. Tiago, thank you so much for spending a few minutes With us today, I will just remind you if you've got questions, don't hesitate to post it in the chat at the end of this. Thiago and I can then, come on and answer those questions. And if you need to speak to Thiago, obviously, he's available.
Stuart Webb [00:21:32]:
Thiago, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciate it. I wish you the very best in what you're doing. I think you've said some really interesting things, And I look forward to catching up with you again soon.
Tiago Faria [00:21:42]:
Thank you so much, Stuart. It was a true pleasure, and I hope someone takes something out of this conversation today.
Stuart Webb [00:21:46]:
I surely will. Thank you.
Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe -
Who is Larry?
Larry Goddard is a man of confidence and determination. He believes in facing fears head-on and taking on any challenge with a can-do attitude. His multifaceted nature comes from a decision to pursue his passions wholeheartedly and not be held back by self-doubt. He is motivated by a desire to work with people who share his confidence and belief that they can achieve anything they set their minds to.
Key Takeaways
00:00 Interview with Larry, a talented, visionary leader.
05:35 Active on LinkedIn and YouTube, sharing progress.
10:08 Believe in self, pursue passions, mentor others.
13:48 Paul promotes his book on test automation.
16:17 Excitement for book, follow on LinkedIn, subscribe.
17:49 Thank you, Larry. Talk soon.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://www.packtpub.com/product/enhanced-test-automation-with-webdriverio/9781837630189
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https://youtube.com/live/ra2bB6d6Plc?feature=share
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Stuart Webb, Joshua Berry, It's Not Rocket Science, Five Questions over coffee, author, Dare to be NIEV, CEO, Econic, conversation, workplace, broken, humane, people positive, leaders, strategy, innovation, growth, human resources, new practices, agile, DevOps, lean start up, HR standpoint, remote work, return to work, curiosity, trust, experimental, collaboration, leadership mindset, creativity, purpose of work.
SPEAKERS
Larry Goddard, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:23]:
Welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science, Five questions over coffee. I'm gonna admit that right at the moment in my mug isn't actually coffee. It's, raspberry tea. I don't know what Larry's got in front of him, but Yeah.
Larry Goddard [00:00:35]:
I have hot chocolate.
Stuart Webb [00:00:36]:
I have hot chocolate. So that's brilliant. So, Larry, welcome to in rocket science over over Five questions I've got. Delighted to invite you to spend a few minutes with us today. Our guest today is Larry Goddard. Larry is an incredible, Polymath. I mean, the man that has so many talents, it's almost impossible to understand exactly where we're gonna go with this, but he's a he's a visionary leader, An award winning test architect, an interim CTO, and a a mentor to, the Black Girls in Tech and, the Black Voices and the founder Founders Institute, he is, He's been an expert witness for for international law firm and a technical adviser to a fashion house. Now This is this is more than we could possibly get into at this stage, Larry.
Stuart Webb [00:01:26]:
So I'm just gonna start with saying, talk to us a little bit about the sort of people you're trying to help and the problems they've got.
Larry Goddard [00:01:35]:
Yeah. I I I think, from from my point of view, I think I don't wanna look at the people who, They wanna do things, but, have this fear that, oh, if I do this, this is going to happen or it's gonna fall apart. I'm I think I I think I would use the word confidence. I don't think I'll be I wanna deal with people, you know, that want that confidence in themselves that I could do anything. Because although my I have to say, I'm multifaceted. And and it all comes from, you know, just deciding, you know, I wanna do this. I'm going all day, and I'm I'm doing that. So
Stuart Webb [00:02:11]:
And and talk to us about some of the some of the people you've helped. Some of those, of the you know, you're obviously working with with people who are starting businesses, and you're doing a lot of public speaking. Tell us about some of the sort of advice you give to those people. Especially,
Larry Goddard [00:02:27]:
I could say especially with the mentoring side of things where, you know, I help them deal with all these people. And I do it a lot from the, Fungus Institute. And those are people who actually looking to open some business. They are funded. They're to get funding for the business only. And one thing I tell them, I tell them is, you know, don't be afraid to take that step. That's the first thing. And 2, the other thing is once you have an idea, you need to put your idea somewhere.
Larry Goddard [00:02:56]:
If you just keep it in your head, Things just things just doesn't match up over that period. You need to document it. You need to relook at it again. And in short, yes. This is what I wanna do, and these are the steps that I want to take. And then you We really do again, you come to people like myself and others. You know, we would tell you, guide you hold your hand and guide you along the way It took your part, not from our vision, but your part.
Stuart Webb [00:03:29]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I love that idea. Be did if, You know, I've I've often said, you know, that, a a bad message out in the world It's far better than a perfect message still inside your head. You know? The the keeping something inside yourself and just waiting for the perfect moment is is always wrong, and I'm just trying to remember who it was that once said it. You know? The best time to start was 20 years ago, but the 2nd best time is now.
Larry Goddard [00:03:56]:
Exactly. Because what's up in your head? It's just you are all annoyed. If you put it on paper, yes, it's still your idea, and you are all annoyed. But now you now have Something visual that you could look at, and you could say, oh, you know, I think I shouldn't go here. I should do this before I do that. But once it's just in your head and it goes around, You spend years waiting for and and and as I always tell people, there is nothing ever called the perfect moment. The perfect moment is right now.
Stuart Webb [00:04:24]:
Yeah.
Larry Goddard [00:04:24]:
Yeah. You know? That's the perfect moment. People tend to we are fine a lot too. People tend to try and Bill is perfect. And I'll just use the word product for the conversation. I want the bill is perfect product before They put it out to the market. No. You need to bill a product, put it out to the market, get some feedback, and improve on the product.
Stuart Webb [00:04:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. That that, that's so often the the the the fault that people have, isn't it? It's it's Trying to make sure something's absolutely perfect before the put it put it out, and it will never be perfect because, you know, first of all, you you have not I got had every single idea you're ever gonna have, but your customers, if they love it, will tell you what they like, what they don't, and what they want to see improved.
Larry Goddard [00:05:11]:
Exactly.
Stuart Webb [00:05:13]:
So, Larry, I mean sorry. Go ahead.
Larry Goddard [00:05:15]:
No. No. No. You you go ahead. Sorry. Now
Stuart Webb [00:05:19]:
so so tell me, what what are you you're also developing new software tools as well at the moment. What where are you where are you gonna be telling us all about this in the future? Where can we continue to watch what you're what you're up to and and your best ideas coming forward?
Larry Goddard [00:05:35]:
Well, like, I think I have my my LinkedIn profile, and then I have my YouTube channel. You You know? So that's where I put everything. So as time goes by and I improve on things or I build things, I put it out on the on the YouTube channel. I talk about it on on my LinkedIn profile. So if you're following me, you know, there you would see you're gonna see everything as it progress And go forward, and you'll get to see all the little bits and pieces that I get myself involved in. You know? So that that's where you'll find me. So I'm I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on YouTube.
Larry Goddard [00:06:08]:
And I'm on Twitter. Sorry. X.
Stuart Webb [00:06:11]:
X. Of course. Yeah. And I I've just put, Larry's, LinkedIn profile now at the bottom of the page, which is, linkedin.com.in. Larry g. So that's Larry G. Follow Larry on LinkedIn. He does do some really interesting stuff.
Stuart Webb [00:06:28]:
I'd say it's he's really got some very interesting things going on. And, yeah, he is an interesting character. So where did you get some of the inspiration? What book or course or, what was it that that really inspired you down your path, Larry?
Larry Goddard [00:06:46]:
Well, I have I have a thing. I mean, I'm one of the old school guys. It had nothing to do with A book or anything is just back in the day. You know, and computers, especially, have now come out because a a a novelty in the day. And just something that interested me, and I started to take my interest in it from since then. And so over the years, I have, you know, looked into it and always do something with it. Mind, I've not always I've never always been in tech. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade.
Larry Goddard [00:07:15]:
So It's it's after I moved from, I'm from Trinidad Tobago, by the way. So after I moved from Trinidad Tobago and came to the UK to live, Then I realized I I had a rude awakening that the call and mechanic don't mix. So So and and that is where my journey is to and that is when I changed my I took my my my hobby. I made it into my career. So a lot of it 90% of what I know is self taught. I thought literally taught myself, I got the software, Back in the day, and I got copies of a lot of things. It wasn't until now. I got a copy of the software.
Larry Goddard [00:07:54]:
I bought some computers. I, you know, I build them up. I start. And and and that's and that's going on and on. And as the technology change, I continue to follow it. And then, you know, the world opened up to open source. So then I started to delve into that, and Then I got to see what people are doing, and we got to use what people were using. And and and think and that's where Classy GS comes up comes about.
Larry Goddard [00:08:16]:
You know, I was tasked with, getting a a job done for Cambridge University at the time back then, And it was it was one of them surreal moments. I realized, oh, I know I I know what I should do. And I decided I started building this framework. Well, the rest is history, as you said. You're quite happy about it from that rough draft and being used to now it's a a node module. You could just, You know, just install as a known module in their place. That's one of the things I do. Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:08:47]:
So so the the the the current The current set of things you're doing, they've just they've just been something you've never been trained for any of this stuff. This is just something that you just know, you just wanna do. What's the what's the 1 piece of advice that you that you that you sort of took from somebody? What was it that sort of made you think, well, I'm just gonna give it a go? You you you there's nothing that's held you back. So it must have been something that somebody did or said or or at some stage pointed out to you that made you think, I could give it a go. Is it something from your parents?
Larry Goddard [00:09:21]:
It it it's one of the things my mom actually used used to say to us, you know, growing up. She see all you say, you know, don't matter what you're doing. Always try to be the best there is. You might never make it, But you will get very, very good at it. You know? And I and I took that I took that through. And then I started and that is where I was, like, about 10 years old or or something and down to the end of the street that I was living on growing up in Lebanon, that guy used fixing cars down there. Now I was trying out, you know, oh, that's really good stuff. Imagine a 10 year old back then, you know, in the early seventies, turns out, oh, that looks good.
Larry Goddard [00:09:56]:
And I just briefly walk into the and say, can you teach me how to do that? And he look at me and say capitalist. Yeah. He actually look at me and say, Son, go home. Why are you down here?
Stuart Webb [00:10:07]:
And yeah.
Larry Goddard [00:10:08]:
But when I I kept going. And then one day, you're saying, okay. You know what? Watch that for me. At the beginning of it, I, yeah, at the beginning, I started washing parts and, you know, and and and following and then the thought that he taught me. And and I think one of the things from that is I think everybody should understand is if you want to do something, no matter what it is, You for yourself have to have a bad belief in you that you could do it. And following my online normal advice, either that's how I think. And I thought I think now, like you rightfully see, I I'm into a lot of stuff. And especially now with the whole AI and the whole framework and building things in it, You know, I'm mentoring people.
Larry Goddard [00:10:48]:
I'm thinking it's all about I could do this. I'm not going to do this. I want to be the best there is. You know, like, somebody said to me once, This is how I just think. I just think like this. If I am a mechanic, I want to open the dictionary. And when I type a new mechanic, I must see a picture of myself there. No.
Larry Goddard [00:11:06]:
I yeah. I got resonate with me. Not really resonate. That means it it simply means what you're going to do always put your best foot forward. And and there's nothing as a stupid question. The only stupid question I have is the one it did not ask. You know? And and it's and it's true that and I follow that all the way through. So as new technologies come out, I I pick up on it.
Larry Goddard [00:11:30]:
I I I do some research. I, you know, I look at the white papers. Yeah. I get involved in in it in a lot of different ways. Going to, expose and and things like that. So that as well keeps, You know, keeps my head in the game with with everything that I'm doing.
Stuart Webb [00:11:47]:
Brilliant.
Larry Goddard [00:11:47]:
And and as you see that and I and as you see that, I think I might just mention this one time, and it's true that, I've written a book, so I don't actually have a book on the market. And it's all you know, talking about, again, automation and and doing other bits and pieces. And from that as well, you know, somebody asked me, hey. Could you and I thought about it. And then, in my head, I say, Why why think about it? Here, you have an opportunity to to write a book. Just go for it. And then why did I just say, yes. I'll do it, and this is the end result.
Stuart Webb [00:12:19]:
And when are we seeing that?
Larry Goddard [00:12:21]:
It's it's out now. I mean, I could see if you look at my my LinkedIn profile. I mean, I can I I could I could even share the the cover, the book you? I'm not sure where I can do that. Great.
Stuart Webb [00:12:30]:
Yeah. Please do.
Larry Goddard [00:12:32]:
I mean, I will send it come up for you in a email or call. I don't think I could drop it in this chat yet. Hello, Blake. And, yeah, I'm. So it's the book is live. It's on, Amazon. It's, it's on Pat Pat Publishing for the publishers. And and yeah.
Larry Goddard [00:12:47]:
So it's there. It's called it's called, enhanced test automation with WebDriver IO. That's in that's in the name of the book. If you look at Amazon right now, you could just you could find it with that.
Stuart Webb [00:13:00]:
If I I if I could find it in the moment, I'd show it, but there we go. We're not gonna be able to do it. Had 1 comment in as we've been talking. Paul has commented and said, it's so true. Test in test automation, it is never too Soon to start. And, yeah, what can I say? The number of, of live software projects that I have been involved in where We started testing far too late, and we tested with the wrong people, and it all ended up in complete disaster. But that's another story for another day, And I won't bore you with it bore bore you with an hour range.
Larry Goddard [00:13:33]:
Guys have I don't think I that just you randomly choose that, but that is my co author, by the way.
Stuart Webb [00:13:40]:
That's a good one then.
Larry Goddard [00:13:42]:
Yeah. That's that's my call. You both know that.
Stuart Webb [00:13:46]:
I'm so glad
Larry Goddard [00:13:47]:
reach out there.
Stuart Webb [00:13:48]:
I'm so glad that Paul's listening in. Paul, he's also said to us at this very moment, enhance test automation. Okay. That's the name of the book. It's enhance Test automation with WebDriverIO unlock the superpowers of hybrid testing frameworks. Paul, Larry, I'll make sure that goes into The show notes so that people can get a copy of that if they want to. Look, I've, I've asked you a series of questions at the moment, Larry, and I'm sure there's probably one that you're thinking I haven't asked, and when's he gonna get around to asking it? So this is my way of saying, Here's your opportunity to to tell me the question you would have liked me to have asked, and then, obviously, you have to answer it for us. So what's that question?
Larry Goddard [00:14:32]:
I think I think that question should, you know, should be, what are you working on now, and where do you see yourself going with it?
Stuart Webb [00:14:39]:
Okay. So what what are you working on now? Where do you see yourself going with it, Larry?
Larry Goddard [00:14:44]:
Yeah. At at the moment At the moment, I'm working on a project called Classy GS. It's it's out there. What it does is our test automation framework. By the way, it's using WebDriverIO and and things like that. And where where, where I'm going with it is, Because, you know, AI is the whole new talk at the time, the new kid on the block. Yes. I'm heavily involved in in in in AI as well.
Larry Goddard [00:15:11]:
So right now, going forward, I'm going to remove some of the existing parts from it and replace it with AI powered technology and and make it, you know, up to scratch and activate the, you know, for the future going forward. And in in doing that, it will also It will also gives me the opportunity to improve on what is there and see, you know, what's new coming out. And as you can see, we're in the AI space. So A lot of new text. You know? You have. You have the you have the Microsofts. You have the the the the Chrome, the Googles. I know everybody bringing out their own copilots and and things like that.
Larry Goddard [00:15:47]:
So going forward and for the future, it's about locking into those products and seeing how best we could use it to, You know, to to help the testing community. So I would spend a lot of time, you know, going forward doing that for for the for the community. And it's and it's all open source. So not like I'm building something that people have to pay for it in a day. I'm building it, and I'm giving them that just as part of me. That is me saying thank you for all the knowledge I got from you guys over the years, and This is my contribution back to the community.
Stuart Webb [00:16:17]:
I love that. I love that. I look forward to seeing that in the in the world. Larry, it's been fascinating sort of having you on for a few minutes. I really do hope people check out that book, and follow you on LinkedIn because you've got some fascinating insights into the world. I'm just gonna mention at this point, if, if you would like to get onto our mailing list so that every A week, pretty much, I put out an email which just says who's coming up on the, on the podcast so that you can be prepared to follow them, To ask questions as Paul was here to sort of interact with the guest on Tuesdays, please go to this link, which is link.thecompleteapproachdot c0.ukforward/newsletter. That's link.thecompleteapproach.c0.ukforward/newsletter. Get on to the list.
Stuart Webb [00:17:04]:
Allow me to send to you our upcoming, live interviews with interesting characters just like Larry, and then you too can be here to, to interact with people like that. Larry, thank you so much for being with us today. Really appreciate you taking out a few minutes of your day. You're a busy guy, so I guess, I guess we better let you get back to changing the world, changing the lives of some of those mentors that you're working with. And thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us.
Larry Goddard [00:17:34]:
Yeah. The pleasure is all mine, Stuart. And, you know, like I said, it was a pleasure to to to do this, and, I and I will continue doing so, and I will follow I myself will follow your newsletter and, you know, jump in and see what some of the other guests come and have to say as well. Another thank
Stuart Webb [00:17:49]:
thank you very much, Larry. Speak to you again soon.
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Who is Joshua?
Joshua Berry is a visionary leader who is determined to fix the broken state of the workplace. With a strong belief in creating a more humane and people-positive work environment, he is committed to revolutionizing the world of work. Joshua understands that true change starts from within organizations and often seeks out leaders in strategy, innovation, growth, and human resources who share his passion for transforming the how and why of business operations. Through his book and various initiatives, Joshua aims to support these individuals in their mission to bring about positive change within their organizations.
Key Takeaways
02:10 Exploring new practices, adapting without supporting people.
04:13 Innovation hub hindered by division manager.
07:22 Daring to be naive for progress and joy.
10:26 Allow employees freedom, reap the rewards.
14:01 Impact of intangibles on bottom line ignored.
17:54 Promote and grow by building trust.
20:43 Books, openness, curiosity, inner work, progress.
23:58 Work: a space to grow people, organizations.
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Stuart Webb, Joshua Berry, It's Not Rocket Science, Five Questions over coffee, author, Dare to be NIEV, CEO, Econic, conversation, workplace, broken, humane, people positive, leaders, strategy, innovation, growth, human resources, new practices, agile, DevOps, lean start up, HR standpoint, remote work, return to work, curiosity, trust, experimental, collaboration, leadership mindset, creativity, purpose of work.
SPEAKERS
Joshua Berry, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:20]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science. Five Questions over coffee. I'm delighted to be joined this afternoon by Joshua Berry. Joshua is the author of Dare to be NIEV, which is a really interesting book, and the CEO of Econic. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Joshua, welcome to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions over coffee.
Joshua Berry [00:00:39]:
Thank you, Stuart. Got my coffee, and we are ready
Stuart Webb [00:00:41]:
to rock. Yep. Yep. Yep. We are it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon for me. This is probably not what I should be drinking. I won't sleep, For the rest of the afternoon, which is normally what we like to propose. Anyway, Joshua, yeah, now welcome to, to to the podcast.
Stuart Webb [00:00:55]:
Good luck to have you here. Just, just for just for clarity, kind of, what is it that you're trying to do with Dare To Be Naive and and your work at Econic? Who who are the who are the customers you're trying to help them out? What problems do they have? What is, what is what is the sort of problem that you're helping them solve?
Joshua Berry [00:01:11]:
Sure. You know, I believe in a lot of ways, the workplace, is broken. Right? We can go long strides in making, the world of work Even more humane and more people positive. And a lot of the times, the people that we work with are leaders in strategy or innovation or growth Or human resources, I think some of those leaders who are most also passionate about shifting the how and why of their businesses. And, you know, that's that's routinely where we meet them. And a lot of what, as you mentioned with the book, that we're trying to do is to help more of those People as they are trying to shift those ways of being within their organizations.
Stuart Webb [00:01:53]:
And and, You know, come a lot of these these people would have tried things before they get around to reaching out to you. What what Things do you see them doing? What problems do you see them getting into before you're able to help them overcome those problems?
Joshua Berry [00:02:10]:
Good question, Stuart. I think there's there's a lot of people who are out there who know they need to do something different, And so you they rightly are looking at new practices for their organization. Maybe they are, Looking into using agile or or DevOps, or they're looking at lean start up or or new ways to do innovation in the organizations. Maybe from an HR standpoint, they're looking at remote work is a big example right now and return to work. They are experimenting with new ways of trying to shift how they do business. But I'd say one of the biggest Challenges, and sometimes the mistakes that they run into is not well, 2 of them, I guess, we can get into. The first one is That they realize that while they're trying to adapt to these new practices, they're not actually taking the opportunity to help those people adapt as they're trying to practice Those new things. Right? Like, the the whole idea of, you know, if if you dig into some of those practices, they're saying, We want our people to be more curious.
Joshua Berry [00:03:15]:
We want them to be more trusting. We want to be more experimental. We want a bit greater collaboration. And yet if you just pursue adopting one of those new says and just push it down to people and use a traditional approach to it, you're missing out on this amazing opportunity to also involve people in practicing those behaviors, Which you're actually hoping to get from some of those practices. So that's that's a big piece of it. I think the second one is, not also taking the opportunity to Do shifts in leadership mindset behavior. A great example is in the innovation space, trying to get people to be more creative or experimental or even spinning up innovation labs, But not investing equally in helping shift the mindset of leaders because they also need to work on those things that help create a safer space for people to innovate or, become more iterative in their decision making or or a number of those things. So they they try to get people to do new practices without starting to adapt and adopt new practices themselves.
Stuart Webb [00:04:13]:
I particularly love that last majority. I was involved some years ago in helping to set up, an innovation hub in the business and, You know, the people that I was working with incredibly enthusiastic, but there was a there was a division manager who would, Who would insist that everything that came through this innovation hub had to come through him for vetting before he was prepared to green light it to go forward for commercialisation And this attitude was basically, this is going to somehow destroy either part of my revenue stream or Something else that I that I hold is a pet project so I will just stop everything. So the Innovation Hub came up with, I think in the 3 months that we sort of started trialing this, a 106 Innovations of which one was given the green light, and it was one of those moments where I had to go to the chief executive and go, it's a brilliant idea, this innovation hub, but there is a problem. And he looked at me and said, do you know where the problem is? And I said, yes. I know where the problem is. He said, where is it? I said, it's in that office. He looked at me and went, I don't know how to solve that problem. And I went, and that's nothing I can do to help you.
Stuart Webb [00:05:20]:
You're absolutely right. The mindset is so critical, You know, the the number of chief executives would go, well, if we can just make it work, it will be fine, but I don't really wanna disturb anything that's going on around here because It will make other things problematic for me.
Joshua Berry [00:05:35]:
You you nailed it there, Stuart. We are in the middle of a fundamental Shift that is happening in the world of work and how work is done. And and what you're seeing is we've had things that worked for many decades that relied more on a command and control sort of approach. Right? Our ability to streamline and predict and forecast. And now we have tension, right, between, our ability to even predict the future or need things. And so Rightly so, the best leaders are saying, I need people to be more adaptable and agile and nimble, and, hence, they do all those practices that I was saying before. But it runs into this clash as you just said with people who are still trying to hold on to some of those vestiges of what got us to to where we are right now. And so we're in this interesting liminal space, and and I think you have to acknowledge that there are some of those beliefs about what maybe assessors for that person, maybe there's even internal things that that your former leader needs to work through to be able to get to a spot to make it okay for some of these new practices that that I think most employees and people want to bring into the world.
Stuart Webb [00:06:41]:
And and I guess this is the sort of the thrust of the book, dare to be naive, that that That you've you've recently got around to giving to the world and there's going to be a a link where people can go look at this and have a a look at, the book, which is here, at joshuaberry.com/ dare to b hyphen naive. I'll put that in the show notes for those people who didn't manage to catch you at this stage, but talk to us a little bit about, you know, the sort of advice and that you talk about in that book. And maybe give us some an insight of something we can go away and do, with that advice today to help move on some of these mindset shifts we need to do.
Joshua Berry [00:07:22]:
Yep. The idea of of daring to be naive is really about letting go of I already know everything. Right? And it's also about tapping into those things that represent not just what's reasonable, but also what feels intuitively Correct to look at, right? So back to the example that you used before of your leader, there's There's a lot of things that go into protecting ourselves and making us try to feel safe and smart and right and perfect and all of those things. And What we challenge in the book is a lot of times the beliefs that have led us to where we're at today, some of them have become limiting beliefs To what is possible for the future, and it's only until you have a shift into saying, you know what? I might be wrong, or you know what? There might be another way. And sometimes even things that might not have been thought before, that we're truly going to have progress. And so the book is about All those times where we probably self limit ourselves, we screen ourselves to present only those things that seem acceptable to the rest of the world, and how we might continue to move through that. Through some of the research and interviews that I've seen, a lot of people Fear being seen or labeled as naive, and yet that fear of being seen as naive actually prevents you from having a greater impact and greater joy in your life. Back to your question about maybe prompting for a free tool.
Joshua Berry [00:08:56]:
One of the things that we practice in the book, and you can find it on that dare to be naive.com or the or the link that you shared, is When we look at our practices, similar to the things that we talked about before, too often, we're not digging into what the beliefs are that power those practices. Right? And so there's a simple 2 by 2 matrix that we use to to help people, and and you can find it there, or you can email me afterwards if you can't find it. And, the tool is basically, what is the current practice? Let's take, for instance, work from home right now. It then challenges you to say, what are the beliefs, either known or maybe just observed or accepted, that are powering that practice. Right? And then it challenges people to talk about and reflect on what is shifting in those beliefs. Right? So so maybe it's maybe the practice is work from home, and the beliefs are a mixture. Oh, people can't be productive, or maybe they can be productive, or whatever it might be. You then create conversation either for the leader or for the team to be able to talk about how are those beliefs shifting or evolving, and then from those evolved beliefs, what are new that we can begin to experiment with.
Joshua Berry [00:10:10]:
And so being intentional about understanding how our beliefs inform our practices and having a simple process to To kind of dissect those and dig into those is, one of the things that we explore in the book through a myriad of different examples and ideas.
Stuart Webb [00:10:26]:
Brilliant. Joshua, I'm I'm I think you've you've you've really highlighted one of the things with you is pretty critical In the workplace today, which is the the the mindset should've shift. We talk about a lot about servant leadership and things like that, but, you know, leaders still have got to get their heads around Allowing people to to to to become themselves at work, can't they? One of my, one of the people I've Spent some time looking and and and talking to is a guy called John Timpson who runs A series of shops around the UK that are about shoe shops and he has only 2 rules for the people that work for him and that is Show up and look the part and put the money in the till. And that's it. You know, pretty much after that, his managers, the people that are on the front line, got Free reign to do a whole load of things, to really adapt their business practice and process in order to sort of truly serve the customer. As a result, He's grown enormously, and he has people working for him who worked for years and will never work anywhere else. Because they turn around and say, When it comes to spending money, he gives me free rein to do what I want. And, you know, so long as so long as they make a profit, and so long as he can sort of see they're making a profit, he gets out of their way as a As a a chairman of a large company, he just gets out of their way and leaves them to it.
Stuart Webb [00:11:47]:
That's a that's an attitude very few leaders have managed to grasp and put put put on in their organization. I think it's it's inspiring when I hear people like you sort of talk about some of this stuff and how to make that happen.
Joshua Berry [00:11:59]:
Yeah. You hit upon it there, Stuart. And one of the stories that I cover in the book, talks about a manufacturing facility, actually in France, that The CEO took it over, and it was a traditional manufacturing facility, right, where, time clock cards and you get penalized if you show up late. All of the materials and supplies are locked up in the closet, and you gotta go take your coupon to be able to get new supplies and materials. And, when Jean Francois showed up at that factory, he started to say, why did we design an organization that assumes Humans are wrong or bad or trying to be lazy or trying to get away with things. What would happen if we designed An organization from the opposite that assumes humankind was good, And they stripped away the controls. They stripped away a number of those things, and you know what? People started to show up earlier. They started to care about what they were doing.
Joshua Berry [00:13:02]:
Quality went up. Engagement went up. Their market share went up. There was amazing impact and a great return on that investment. And so we cover in the book that, like, it it isn't 1 or the other. We we we talked about it as 2 ROIs. You can get ripples of impact and a return on investment. And similar to what your leader, that you're just highlighting there, with the cashiers, It isn't, oh, I'm only going to do it as long as I'm gonna get these results.
Joshua Berry [00:13:33]:
We're not telling you to ignore those sorts of things, but it's amazing How many stories are out there of when you do choose to prioritize treating people as human, treating people as wanting to give something, and honoring people, that a lot of times a decent ROI also comes on the backside of that. And sometimes it's hard to have the faith or the optimism or the hope to be able push through some of that, that's the dare to be naive. Right?
Stuart Webb [00:14:01]:
It's a it's a great message, Shashank. I I I love the fact that I think One of the things that you're sort of highlighting there is that the return on investment is so often in things that are difficult to measure or or almost in those intangibles. You know, If you can reduce churn, if you can keep somebody working for your organization longer, you know, you reduce recruitment costs, you recruit Retention costs you recruit, you you reduce your your retraining costs. You get people who are better attuned to your customers, your ethos. Although it's something difficult things to measure it that people just therefore just don't measure and as a result they go, okay, well if we can't measure it, we'll ignore it And yet it has huge impact upon the bottom line. If you are constantly having to recruit team members and they're just they're there for a month or 2 and then go because they've been treated horribly, We don't measure that, but what we don't what we don't as a result, we miss out on is the is the impact that that has on the bottom line. People just turn around and go, I can't understand why it Costs us so much and yet, you know, going back to sort of a simple retail store, if if if those costs are built in, they raise the price And yet people will look around and go, I don't know what's don't know what happens, but down the road, that warehouse, everything's much cheaper. And everybody always seems to be the same.
Stuart Webb [00:15:17]:
I don't know what's going on. That's something that just is so often not measured even by HR departments who are trying to sort of find these things and work out what they are.
Joshua Berry [00:15:26]:
I think you're right, Stuart. There is definitely a concrete ROI that you can see from those good actions from retention and loyalty and Productivity, etcetera. I will throw out there, and this is probably maybe a little controversial for at least for me, 8 o'clock coffee. I wonder if sometimes even our thought of retention is maybe the wrong term. Right? Because it it sets up an organization and an employee as some as a person to be retained. Right? Stewart, I don't know your relationship status, and we don't need to get into this. But Imagine with my spouse if I went into thinking about what is my retention of my spouse. Right? Like that's From an unconditional love standpoint, like, that's probably not something that I'm going to go for.
Joshua Berry [00:16:13]:
And yet we I know it's not a perfect analogy here, but When we start to think about the act of care and concern for the people who are serving us in this organization, employees, And the consumers and people that we're serving, what would happen if we started from another standpoint instead of saying, I need to retain this person, and we said, what would I need to do to make this person want to be here? And I would be okay if they didn't. We work with a great leader of HR who said before, this this individual works in a community, has several Fortune 500 companies. She said, the future belongs to a place where I might have someone who works Down there at Union Pacific, down there at Mutual of Omaha, and some of their time over here with me. If I understand that that's how the community is going to be or even shortsighted, understand that I'm helping prepare people who go out into the community that I want to live in, why wouldn't I prioritize the growth and the deference, right, that we're able to do it? So, it's, it's it's it's a challenge that's out there. It's baked into a friend yesterday was telling me, you know, it's baked into the word the war on talent. Right? It it implies that there has to be this this tension or this otherness that happens to it. And and I think More and more successful leaders are testing the ideas that there can be a different relationship there.
Stuart Webb [00:17:39]:
Yeah. And I think we just had that comment come in that the retention is a word Jesus control. And you're right. It's it's a it's about it's about, that introduction of a lack of trust and falling back on our beliefs. And and I'll I'm Sorry, Greg. I'm sorry. I don't know who the user is. It's just doing that on mobile.
Stuart Webb [00:17:54]:
I'll find out as we get back out of this. But but, you know, I can remember In some of the companies that I've been working with, I have had words with managers when I say to them that one of the ways that I measure them as a success is if there are people that come through and get promoted and they go out into bigger roles because as far as I'm concerned, their job as a manager is to ensure that the people that They are working with their coach to go on and do better and and, you know, actually, the manager looks at you as if to say, but but I don't measure on people leaving and I go, Yeah. This this what I'm trying to do is turn around and say if that person leaves, they leave to a different part of the Company or they go and do something else. You've you've they they got a a a somebody who will be grateful to you forever for what you've done for them, And you will always be able to speak to them and go, do you have a young person that's ready for the next I'll take them. I'll move them on in exactly the way that you've been moved on, And they'll be throwing people your way and you'll get the best talent in your department because there will be people who trust you and it's back to trust. It is it is largely around getting them to trust that you really do have their best in at heart and their best interests and that Grows the entire operation, grows the organization as a whole.
Joshua Berry [00:19:09]:
That sounds like an amazing legacy, right, to be able to leave behind 100%.
Stuart Webb [00:19:14]:
So, Joshua, there must be some, book course or or program or or something which really started you down the path of of starting to think like Share that with us so that we can all go on the same journey that you've gone on.
Joshua Berry [00:19:30]:
And
Stuart Webb [00:19:30]:
with this, I'm gonna take a sip of coffee. This is gonna I'm gonna need you to call for You know,
Joshua Berry [00:19:35]:
if if any if any of my family is listening or friends who know me too much, they know I have a book problem. And So, there there is quite a bit, quite quite a number, so I I will try my best. More recent ones that have influenced some of this belief, One is, there's a couple authors. Diana Chapman is the main one that comes to mind of the book called 15 Commitments to Conscious Leadership, is is a great book that has helped me think through some of those shifts. I would say There's been a lot of inner work, that I've gone through because you do have to yourself. And so there's a number of programs whether it's been through the Purpose Guide Institute or, or other coaches, or or people that I've worked with who have really helped me start to understand What are the stories that are in my head that prevent me from entertaining so many other ideas that might be out there? So, For instance, you know, I needed to there's no such thing as a book problem. Thank you, Melissa. Melissa is ahead of me on reading books this Sure.
Joshua Berry [00:20:43]:
Anyway, so I can't claim I have a book problem, I guess. When I think about, specifically, though, the Ability to be able to, like, recommend books, I think there's so many. And I think just the act of people being open and curious And learning and wanting to try and dig into something different, I think that is what's helpful. And then as I mentioned, any programs that focus on inner work and what the stories are that you're telling yourself. You know, in our organization, we experimented with increased not only our financials, but even pay over the last couple of years. If I hadn't done some of my own inner work To understand what are my hesitations to share that as as as the owner and CEO of the company. Like, there's no way we're going to move beyond that. And so Yeah.
Joshua Berry [00:21:32]:
Any leaders who are starting to say, like, if this feels like a thing I wanna do, but all the rest of the world and everything is saying no, Spend a little bit of time doing some inner work just to truly understand what are the things you gain and what you lose by holding on to some of those beliefs that may actually be Time to sunset.
Stuart Webb [00:21:50]:
I think you're absolutely right, Jeff. In terms of in terms of that, one of the things that I did, with a guy that the company that we grew from, Well, initially, about 3 of us through to about 60 people. I basically took the entire company and I said, right. I'm gonna teach you how to read the company accounts. And, once a month on a Friday, I'm gonna stand up and talk about what's going on in the business, and you can ask me any questions you like. And I was astounded. First of all, that that I thought that the you know, I had a couple of people who turn around me go, What what what if they ask about so and so? And I go, well, I'm gonna be honest. I mean, you know, there's a problem.
Stuart Webb [00:22:28]:
They might as well know about it because they might know how to solve it. And that was exactly the attitude I got. There were people who were standing up and going, well, why are we doing that? Why are we spending money on that? We could do that. You go, okay. Fine. We can we can cut that or I've got an idea of how we could sell this and I'd go, terrific. Yeah. Let's get together and talk about exactly what we do do to turn that into a prop.
Stuart Webb [00:22:49]:
People who you would you'd imagine would never never be interested in doing such things, but, wow, the opportunity is is just, It's just it's just fantastic to take people on that journey.
Joshua Berry [00:23:02]:
I I I love that. You know, the the purpose of Econic, is truly to create the space for people to practice the behaviors that grow themselves and the organization. And you just nailed it right there. Like, I I believe that my community, for sure, my family, I know will be even greater if they get an opportunity to build their financial acumen, their business acumen, as you Jared. Right? And if we continually see that what we're doing you know, if if there was a question that I would hope you'd ask me, Stewart, it'd be, what is the purpose of work? And that was the question
Stuart Webb [00:23:36]:
I was about to get here, to get to you. We're gonna leave in now.
Joshua Berry [00:23:40]:
Swooping the tables. Swooping the tables on you, Stuart.
Stuart Webb [00:23:44]:
Leap in now because the last question I was gonna ask you, Joshua, is a is a question that I haven't yet asked you. What is it? And now you need to answer it. So No. I'm glad we got to that stage. We're not be needing to do anything more any more work.
Joshua Berry [00:23:58]:
Well, okay. What of the purpose of work? And I I truly believe in in today's world where where I think there's fewer and fewer institutions that bring people together for that growth. I think work can Begin and and continue to be a place for people to practice, right, those opportunities to grow themselves, right, and that work. Whether it's whether it's social experiences, whether it's collaboration, whether it's trust, whether it is creativity, curiosity, whether it's finding meaning. Right? There's there's really few places that we spend more time than work, and if we take the opportunity to say, You know what? All of our work, all of our projects, all the things that we're working on are not only a space to be able to grow the organization, but maybe first and foremost To help grow the people who are working through that, again, I think growth becomes an outcome of that and you have all the other great ripples of impact that happen that are beyond that. So, yeah, I I think that's that ties back to the mission, that that I'm definitely working on and, I'm excited to be able to share with everybody today, Stuart. So thank you.
Stuart Webb [00:25:13]:
Listen, Joshua. This has been a really fascinating discussion. I'm gonna I'm just gonna point out once again. You need to go check out Joshua's book, which is at joshuaberry.com/uh, dare to be naive. There with hyphens in between each of those words. Otherwise, it would just run into 1. Very You
Joshua Berry [00:25:32]:
you can also just go to dare to be naive .com. There is a
Stuart Webb [00:25:35]:
Or dare to be my e.com. So, please, go go check out Joshua's book. And, my thanks to you, Joshua, for coming and spending a few, minutes with us here. Listen. I'm just gonna just gonna wrap this up by saying if you would like to get a pre notification, we send we do one of these pretty much every Tuesday. If you'd like to get notification before the event so that you can join on the live and ask questions as you've seen, we've had comments and questions coming in during this discussion. Why don't you go to this link which is, httpscolon/linkthecompleteapproach.co.uk / news lecture. That gets you onto the mailing list.
Stuart Webb [00:26:13]:
You come out once every week with a little bit of a a blurb from me just telling you who's coming up And you can be on the LinkedIn live and watch out for that, each week and then obviously you can obviously also subscribe to the podcast and hear these when they get Issued as a podcast. Joshua, thank you so much, for your time. I'm just gonna leave the link back up. It's been a fascinating discussion. I love what you're doing with Econic, and the the book. Please, keep us informed. Let us know what's going on, and we look forward to watching the progress, in the future.
Joshua Berry [00:26:47]:
Thank you, Stuart. This has been fun. And if I had to leave you with one last thing, do you know the secret to taking good coffee on the go?
Stuart Webb [00:26:56]:
That's secret now.
Joshua Berry [00:26:57]:
It's it's not where you're going. It's where you've been.
Stuart Webb [00:27:03]:
Thank you, Joshua. Goodbye. Please take your jokes with you. I gotta I gotta get us out with a quick quick wrap up for you.
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Who is Adrienne?
Adrienne Bellehumeur is a seasoned professional based in Calgary, Alberta, known as "Texas North" due to its association with the oil and gas industry. With expertise in working with clients in various industries, Adrienne primarily focuses on assisting oil and gas companies, including those in the process of going public in Canada or listed on the US exchange. Her main area of expertise lies in running compliance and internal control operations, as well as handling financial process work. Additionally, Adrienne excels in using her skills in documentation to solve a wide range of problems faced by her clients. While her clientele spans across different sectors, her current work heavily revolves around the oil and gas industry.
Key Takeaways
[00:02:18] Doing more with less: a universal problem.
[00:04:04] Knowledge lost; document lessons, automate, avoid stagnation.
[00:07:27] Wasted money on known problem; lack of communication.
[00:10:35] "Documentation is a problem-solving tool for career success."
[00:14:43] Book summarizes career best practices for all.
[00:18:13] Poor cash flow due to delayed sales.
[00:20:39] Subscribe to link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/newsletter for updates and free downloads.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
www.bellehumeurco.com/6steps
A video version of this podcast is also at
https://youtube.com/live/1ZKGoZUxiNA?feature=share
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
documentation, grow your business, 24 hour rule, mass market, advice, guidance, compliance, internal control, financial process, oil and gas, scalability, employee engagement, headcount, systems, knowledge, inflation, interest rates, business owners, high interest rates, high inflation, people's heads, do more with less, lessons learned, automate, minimal effort, sale price, knee-jerk reaction, fancy systems, knowledge management programs, consistent habits, routine.
SPEAKERS
Adrienne Bellehumeur, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:21]:
Hi. And welcome back to It's not rocket science. I've gotta get that in the middle of the frame. Five questions over coffee. I'm here today with Adrian Bellhuma. Adrian is an expert on documentation and how to best use that documentation to help grow your business. And she's the author of the 24 hour rule, which is the 1st real mass market, book, which gives advice and guidance on the best use and best of documentation to grow your business. So I'm really pleased to have Adrienne here with me on the podcast.
Stuart Webb [00:00:54]:
Adrienne, welcome to It's Not Rocket Science 5 questions over coffee.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:00:58]:
Thanks so much, Stuart, for having me. This is great.
Stuart Webb [00:01:01]:
Well, it's terrific to have you. Adrian, let's, let's start by sort of understanding a little bit about the The sort of audience that you you that you help the the the people that have got pros problems that you are trying to help them solve those problems.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:01:16]:
The clients I work with are well, I'm I'm in Calgary, Alberta, so we are considered Texas North, that's our nickname. So I work with a lot of oil and gas clients here, of but and Of companies of all sizes, to be honest, whether it's company that is just in the process of Going public in Canada or large, companies US to on the US exchange. The bulk of my business is actually running Compliance, internal control, financial process work, but I do a lot of other, types of using using the skill of documentation to solve to solve problems. So but it's it's a range of, it's a range of clients, but we we have a heavy focus on oil and gas right now.
Stuart Webb [00:02:03]:
So tell me, what are the sort of problems that those clients have had, and and what have they tried to do to solve the problem that that that they've not necessarily been that successful with before you get involved with them.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:02:18]:
Yeah. Well, it's I mean, it's very topical right now, and I hate give a buzzword, cop cop out response, but doing more with less is a huge theme right now. And I'd say it's a it's Almost a universal problem with inflation, interest rates, really changing the game and how, companies make decisions. So, Again, it's talked about a lot right now, but I don't think it's just just a buzzword. I would say it's the the biggest problem that Clients right now are are struggling with is how to do more with their their staff, first of all. I mean, we Employee engagement is at a all time low right now. People are not looking we are in an age where people are not looking to increase their headcount. In fact, we're looking to decrease headcount pretty much everywhere and just operate with a leaner, structure.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:03:11]:
I have other clients that are that are in a maybe in a different category than a more mature business. They are looking To scale or leverage what they're doing, but still not not really looking they don't we're not in a environment of spending a ton of money, so I this This do more with less theme, is massive whether it's, an existing business scaling kinda scaling back, Using their people better, using systems better, using knowledge in people's heads better. It just seems like a universal and even even Business owners that are looking to scale, right now with high high interest rates, high inflation, It's a more it's a people wanna do it right without just spending a ton of money throwing throwing, you know, Throwing money at at the problem, which is really not what I'd advise to do either.
Stuart Webb [00:04:04]:
And re and really one of the great problems that that, That we we've we've we've we've found ourselves locked into for a lot of years, isn't it? It's the fact that we don't often document All of the lessons learned and things that have happened in the past and how we do things well enough so that when you do get that Turnover of engagement or when you do need to downsize and you do need to automate things through systems, it's not possible to do that because the knowledge is lost. So the knowledge is is lost because it's locked in people's heads, and it's only by sensibly and by, Well, I'd like to say with minimal effort, but that's what it is. With minimal effort getting into a document which is easy to understand, keep refreshed, Keep people sort of, up to speed that a business owner is able to do that. And it and it it's critical to to not only growth, but When it comes to that stage of when you need to, as a business owner, start thinking about exit, if it's all locked away in people's heads, you cannot possibly move the business forward.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:05:03]:
Yeah. It certainly can hurt your sale price as well, in the event of a of a even even informal documentation can be used to increase your sale price as well. So that's that's a great point. I mean, any, tier audience that's often looking to leverage their business, I mean, Doc, just getting things on paper is that's a huge part big part of my business too is actually
Stuart Webb [00:05:27]:
business
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:05:28]:
point of leverage. Even even myself, if I'm looking to bring someone new in our team or, Using an administrator, all of a sudden, the stuff that I've done from my own head has to be transferred. I mean, it's it's very interesting how Important documentation becomes oh, even when you expand to just 2 people doing doing something. I mean, my my advice, I guess, Stuart, what I see in and and why I'm so motivated in this area is that most most businesses have really knee jerk reaction to these projects Where it's kind of, oh, let's just go doc run and spend a fortune either documenting or fancy systems or almost overkilling, the problem as opposed to just consistent habits, that is less costly. So that's Part of my soapbox I'm getting on and the motivation for my work, I know you wanna ask about why we're what companies Could do better. Yeah. The knee jerk reaction of rushing out and spending a fortune either documenting or systems or these Fancy knowledge management programs. And then what happens is, of course, they just get cut.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:06:40]:
This is cut when, when the Buzzword changes. So I've I've my whole math my entire methodology is about Consistent habits that are actually quite an Habits. Quite routine.
Stuart Webb [00:06:55]:
Habits are really important with this, aren't they? If it becomes what it as you say, it's it's one of those things where if somebody turns around and says, We need to make we need to get our documentation up to date, and everybody rushes around and starts doing it. Yep. And then it you know, the the fatigue flags and and everybody gets fed up Doing it, and then you get to the point where somebody leaves and it's okay. Well, we'll you know, let's not worry about that. We'll get on with what we got on with, and then we'll just 2, 3 years later, somebody says, All our documentation's out of date. Let's get all our documentation out of the day. It it it just is a cycle. I've seen it 3 or 4 times of businesses I've been involved with there.
Stuart Webb [00:07:27]:
We we we we we haven't got this. Yeah. Learning, learning and a a a habit with, you know, Making it just part of whatever is going on, you just keep a note of of the latest thing and record record it. A a great example of this, I was working with a business recently, and there was a huge amount of effort to get a particular problem solved. And then somebody sort of was looking through the Wiki, and they came across an entry which was essentially, I guess the best thing could be described as, oh, this is a bit of a known problem. We ought to solve it and think about solving it at some stage. And I asked the question, Well, when did that get written? Well, the date stamp is this date, and I went, so let's get this right. We've just spent Nearly a quarter of $1,000,000 trying to solve a problem that was known about.
Stuart Webb [00:08:22]:
Yeah. But we'd all forgotten about it. And I went, didn't anybody think of Checking the Wiki before we started down this path, and they went, no. We kind of don't really bother too much about it. We just look at it when we're really, really stuck. It was one of those moments when I thought the habit of constantly sort of doing documentation has been lost in this organization, And it would have saved a good quarter of a 1000000. Yeah. We would have we would have been 4 weeks ahead of schedule had we not spent 4 weeks Forgetting that there was some documentation and not even bothering to look at it.
Stuart Webb [00:08:55]:
A horrible experience.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:08:56]:
It's it's, it's very Basic, basic skill in some ways. I mean, we're we and we assume, our workforce knows how to do it correctly. My Experience as a business owner and consultant, is is actually it's the contrary. It's very few people that really understand mechanics are doing it well, and that's actually why I do so much have so much effort writing and training others and, promoting best practices and habits around because my experience is that it's it's not as well done or understood as a skill, and it and it does take work. It's not something like breathing. Not every you're not gonna just hire experienced people, and they necessarily are great at it.
Stuart Webb [00:09:43]:
I'm just making a note of, of things that I need to remember in the future, Adrianne, to Check. Come back to. Listen. You must have some valuable free advice that you, that you you could give to the audience listening at the moment. What what would that be? And I I think there is A an interesting, download that I can refer to now, which I'll show on screen.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:10:03]:
Sure. There's a download here. So my book, I'm gonna I'm gonna do,
Stuart Webb [00:10:09]:
this to James.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:10:10]:
Oh, I'm just going the wrong way.
Stuart Webb [00:10:11]:
I went right
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:10:15]:
for smarter organizations. So it's actually don't I I don't wanna freak out your audience that it's a book on documentation. It's actually a fun read. It's much more, aligned with solving business problems. That's actually how I view documentation. It's not just a exercise you put on the shelf. It's it's really about solving problem. That's what I That's what I do for a client.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:10:35]:
Whether a client is going public or it is or you're stuck in a vortex of meetings or you have, Peter is retiring, and he built your systems from scratch 15 years ago. I mean, there's so many different scenarios which you apply documentation to, and I Truly believe that it's just a tool for problem solving, also a set of skills that you carry your entire career, and and in your life as well. So my book is structured along these 6 steps, of of capture, structure, Present, which is about writing and and visualization, communicate, store and leverage, and lead and innovate, and, I give Tips, and skills along each of these things. So my download will give your audience a bit of a flavor for some of these techniques, and if you're interested more, certainly check them out in the book. I mean, I would say if if I could leave your audience with One very simple technique in documentation, that is no technology required, no fancy education, and they will get their money's worth from, joining your, this this podcast today, is the 24 hour rule, and that is a very simple it's actually I believe the golden rule of documentation is that you have To process, you have to do something with information within 24 hours of either hearing it or even have it it can be applied to ideas as well. The 20 the 24 hour rule, is is the again, golden rule documentation, also a great productivity tip. One of the worst losses of of good of knowledge, momentum on projects, opportunity comes within 24 hours. We don't we are really good at processing information in 24 hours.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:12:32]:
But if you really wait past that window, Your short term memory and your your energetic connection to that information starts dropping. So I'm sure, Stuart, you've been to meetings. Everyone Came out with brilliant ideas and, all this they solved the world, and then they they just head out for the weekend and really forget to action anything. Those are Very classic examples of how good information opportunity momentum gets lost because we don't We don't process it effectively. And in my experience is a lot of great information is lost within That that 24 hour window. Certainly, meetings is a great example, but you can apply it to business I mean, sales. It's usually when you don't When you don't follow-up on a sales opportunity or even process it or connect with someone you met at a conference, you are your likelihood of doing that diminishes actually quite rapidly in 24 hours. So it's a very different take on how documentation is usually so Formal and, so, corporate, but this is a this is a new take, of driving better habits will change Change your documentation across the board in so many different areas of your business.
Stuart Webb [00:13:48]:
I like it very much. I agree. I really do. I really do. Was there a particular, book or experience or course or something which really sort of got you into understanding the the the value of commendation in in a in an organization?
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:14:05]:
I I actually wrote the book because I thought there was A hole in the market. I've again, I I as a I'm a I'm a CPA. I started, your it's and it's a very documentation, patient, intensive career, actually. You do need to loan your auditor, or you you have to you have to know the document. And, usually, you're plunked. And I my experience is you're plunked into, into the work world. People expect to do how to do it. And I actually remember it really drowning, When I worked for I worked for a lot of banks and all the just sea of documentation.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:14:43]:
I I remember not actually having a good grasp on it, So I was very motivated to write a book that I think would be helpful, but it it it would be helpful for people new in their career, but also really all levels. I've I mean, certainly, it it's it's almost, a it it's levels the playing field, really. It's not everyone Almost it doesn't matter if you're a senior executive or, just starting your career. We could all benefit from some of these best practices. The the book actually draws from the worlds of information management, organizational design, which is effectively better process, and And productivity, personal productivity, is kind of a smooshing together of these 3 disciplines, and, actually, that's why That intersection is really where this world, I call it dynamic documentation, is defined. I I would say I mean, one big influence is David Allen's getting things done. It is, and he's influenced a lot of people. He he really that productivity component, he's the one who Really kicked it off.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:15:45]:
There's been a lot of great productivity books since then, personal productivity, but I would his is still This is still kind of the the kickoff about just over 20 years ago of that new discipline, which is so needed in today's work world. We do we do need Teach people how to be more productive.
Stuart Webb [00:16:04]:
Absolutely great. Look. We're reaching towards the end of the, for the interview. Adrian, I really thank you for spending some time with us, but But there must be 1 question that's currently, currently keeping you, keeping on the edge of your seat thinking, why hasn't he asked me about? And so, therefore, I'm gonna ask you now, What's the question I should have asked you, which I I haven't yet? And then, obviously, you have to answer it because otherwise, we'll all be going away wondering why it is we didn't get a good answer to that question. So What is that 1 question that I haven't yet asked that you'd like me to?
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:16:34]:
The oh, wow. That's a hard question, Stuart. You can ask me to
Stuart Webb [00:16:37]:
I like to I like to leave the hard questions for other people to, to ask as well as answer, Adrian. That's, that's that's my that's my secret of my success.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:16:45]:
You can ask me, What's the simp my favorite simple framework for document I know it's a very question, and I'll I'll I'll, I I have lots of
Stuart Webb [00:16:55]:
people
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:16:55]:
to ask me, but yes.
Stuart Webb [00:16:57]:
Please give us that description.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:16:59]:
Alright. I'll give another simple this is also very helpful for your audience, and I use it extensively in my training is that documentation has been traditionally viewed as big d documentation. That means, like, Policies, records, formal, big systems, transform big big initiatives like that. Documentation is equally about little d, everyday disciplines and habits that we talked about, including the 24 hour rule, How we take notes, how we store things regularly, how we can write, how we communicate. To have great documentation, you need to balance Big d and little d. You can you can implement the fanciest sales system in the world, but if your sales team doesn't have the habit of recording sales prospects, it's not gonna fly. I vote so I'm a huge believer. My very simple framework is that you keep you Basically have to keep the 2 in balance, big d and little d, to have very successful initiatives, projects, and organizations as well.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:18:07]:
So I'll just leave with that last little framework easy framework for your audience.
Stuart Webb [00:18:13]:
Adrian, I happen to love that, and it reminds me. Just gonna give a very real example. I led, I led 1 business that was currently in undergoing a huge amount of, trouble. The, the the problems were were myriad, but one of the major problems I had to solve was the fact that their cash flow was poor. And the the the one of the keys to solving their cash flow was to discover that these salespeople Captured most of their sales on bits of paper and then uploaded them to the computer system when they got back into the office. And they were traveling, So they would have what I call what I eventually came to call briefcase time. That was orders that were ready that customers wanted to pay for In a brief case for 1, 2, or possibly even 3 weeks, by which time the customer had even forgotten they'd made the order And then we cancel it when they saw it come through on an email because they thought it was no longer an order or it was a duplicate. And that was one of the major problems that that business had, and all we had to do was get them to upload it on a slightly more regular basis than leave it in their briefcase for 3 weeks.
Stuart Webb [00:19:23]:
And the 24 hour rule became an absolutely critical rule for us. All orders from paper into system Improper documentation so that we actually understood what the order was within 24 hours. You're absolutely right. Big d and little d, Absolutely critical to every organization. I love that. I'm gonna be starting to I'll steal that from you if that's okay with you. Okay. Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:19:43]:
Absolutely. Big d and little d or
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:19:45]:
You can talk
Stuart Webb [00:19:46]:
day long.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:19:46]:
Big d, little c, you can use it you can use it in different capacities, but they do always have to be in balance. And we talk a lot about big d, so I'm Bringing a lot more attention to those little d habits, skills, and
Stuart Webb [00:19:58]:
different ones. Brilliant. Adrian, look. This has been a really fascinating discussion, And I think you've brought documentation to life, which I know is not something which I expected people to be hearing from me because documentation is not something that most businesses find themselves thinking It's a good use of their time. It's a critical use of their time if they wanna grow, critical use of their time if they wanna avoid some of the problems you've been saying. Look. We're we're reaching the end, but if you would like to get on to our newsletter list so that you get to hear about brilliant interviews With people like Adrian so that you can participate by asking questions when we're live or by being aware of the recordings when they come out on podcast form on Apple Spotify. Here's the link you go to.
Stuart Webb [00:20:39]:
You go to httpscolonforward/forward/link.thecompleteapproach. That's thecompleteapproach word.co.ukforward/newsletter. That's link.thecompleteapproach.co.ukforward/newsletter. Get on that newsletter list, get to hear about great people like Adrian who are coming up, and about the brilliant sort of things that you'll hear When you see Adrian's, notes coming out, because I'll link to that book and I'll link to her 6 steps, a free download. Adrian, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciate you coming to us all the way from, from Calgary. I guess it's still nice and warm there at the moment.
Stuart Webb [00:21:19]:
I've been to Calgary, and I know it could get a little cold. But I guess for
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:21:23]:
a moment,
Stuart Webb [00:21:24]:
it's still up.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:21:26]:
Adrianne, thanks.
Stuart Webb [00:21:28]:
Thank you so much. You're gonna play us out, and then, we'll Speak to you again soon.
Adrienne Bellehumeur [00:21:33]:
Thank you.
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Who is Sophie?
Sophie Dearden is a professional who specializes in helping businesses with their hiring and recruitment needs. From small solo printer setups to larger companies, Sophie understands the struggles they face when it comes to bringing in the right talent. She assists smaller businesses that lack experience or HR departments by providing alternative methods of hiring. Additionally, Sophie aids larger companies, particularly those in industries like engineering, construction, and recruitment, where there is a significant skills gap or shortage. In the UK, she has successfully placed gas engineers and electrical engineers in companies facing these challenges. Sophie has extensive knowledge of the employee market and understands the difficulties companies face in offering competitive salaries to attract skilled professionals. With her expertise, she not only helps businesses with recruiting skilled individuals but also assists in staff retention strategies.
Key Takeaways
[00:03:17] Companies struggle to fill gaps in their workforce, leading to burnout, low morale, and high turnover. Traditional hiring methods are expensive and time-consuming. Hence, many companies turn to recruitment companies after failed attempts to fill the gap themselves.
[00:05:17] Big rebrand, hiring remote professionals, task delegation.
[00:11:24] University in England, ski instructing in New Zealand, art degree, gym failure, successful sales company, sacrificing relationships, shutting down company, working with virtual assistants, learning from past experiences, Tim Ferris's book, starting Resource Worldwide.
[00:15:45] Flexibility and cost-effectiveness of hiring remote professionals
Valuable Free Resource or Action
www.resourceworldwide.com
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
https://www.youtube.com/live/Jj64xdzEeig?feature=share
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
struggling small businesses, right skills, talented individuals, technical or skill, hiring individuals, solo printers, home office, physical location, budget, alternative method of hiring, skills gaps, skill shortages, engineering companies, construction companies, recruitment companies, gas engineers, electrical engineers, employee's market, candidate driven market, salary requirements, HR department, retention of staff, organic growth, add more responsibilities, burnout, morale, team, infrastructure, competitors, gap, hiring, recruiting, recruitment company, expensive mistakes, rebrand, current website, tips for hiring, remote professionals, Philippines, cost-effective option, local area, upfront fees, sliding scale, A player, career progression opportunity, culture of the company, vision of the company, sense of purpose, poor retention, timely, expensive.
SPEAKERS
Sophie Dearden, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's not rocket science 5 questionnaire with Profiolo today. I'm having just some nice lemon water because I've got a bit of a sore throat of that. And I'm delighted to welcome Sophie Deird and Sophie is the co founder of resource worldwide there are businesses on a mission to really help, struggling small businesses find the right skills and talented individuals no matter her technical or skill they need to be. And so she's gonna talk to us a little bit about some of those problems. So welcome to it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee.
Sophie Dearden [00:00:56]:
Thank you so much. It's great to be here. I'm super excited to talk to you and, hopefully share some new information and insights to anyone that's watching.
Stuart Webb [00:01:05]:
Brilliant. So, Sophie, tell me what is the sort of problem that you are currently trying to solve? What's the What's the problem that your customers have that you really help them to to to solve?
Sophie Dearden [00:01:17]:
So we work with a fairly sizable range different businesses. So anything from solo printers right through to kind of multiple 7 or 8 figure companies. And the one consistency across the companies that we work with is essentially they are struggling to hire individuals into their businesses. And it can be for a range of different reasons. Obviously, smaller businesses sometimes they don't necessarily have one any experience or a HR department to help them with recruiting. They may not necessarily have an office. A lot of solo printers in 2023 are able to start a amazing businesses, run amazing businesses even from their home office, for example. So they may not have a physical location. They may not have a budget to bring somebody in full time. So we'll come in and we'll help those business owners with hiring in our way, which is an alternative method of hiring. Or with the larger companies that we work with, we find that there's real skills gaps and skill shortages. So we work a lot with engineering companies, construction companies, recruitment companies, for example. Let's talk about engineering We have recently been placing gas engineers, electrical engineers into companies here in the UK because there's just a real skill shortage of that specific, niche. Alternatively, the skills are available in the UK, but the cost, but it's very much an employee's market or a candidate driven market, the cost of which the salary requirements are is so high, the companies just can't afford to pay them. that's the type of company that we start to work with, people who have got problems with recruiting skilled professionals, recruiting at all, and also retention of their staff as well.
Stuart Webb [00:03:03]:
So what's the sort of thing that you find business owners have tried to do or failed before you sort of help them? Where have they where they've been putting their efforts, which have not resulted in the right higher or getting the right sort of skill in their business?
Sophie Dearden [00:03:17]:
a lot of companies, and again, if we're talking about kind of our more established businesses here. A lot of companies grow organically. So they may have somebody in their business who's been there for a long time and they've kind of started to build up a team And what happens is they just add more and more responsibilities onto their existing team members. who might not actually be the right skill set for those responsibilities, their assistant team members come in and start to get burnout, for example, the morale of the team can drop. The retention then can drop. People might start moving looking for different positions. So when a company will step back and look at their infrastructure and go, okay. Actually, we've got a gap here that we need to fill, or it may be that their competitors are offering service there, not yet, sir, they're not offering. So for whatever reason, there'll be a gap that becomes available in the company where they need to hire. Traditionally, they'll look at either hiring themselves, but like we kind of touched on already, a lot of companies don't have HR departments. that ensure how to hire. they may look at using recruitment companies. Both of these different ways of hiring traditional recruitment companies I'm talking about, they can be really expensive and also timely. So if you try to hire yourself or you hire for recruitment company, the recruitment company gets it wrong, It can take a really long time to find the right person, and it can be really, really expensive mistakes to be making along the line. So the the biggest reason that we find that people come to us is because they've tried one of those 2 methods to fill this gap already. and they've failed in their attempts to do it themselves?
Stuart Webb [00:04:52]:
No. I know you're currently going through something a bit of a rebrand, so I'm sure I'm about to show your current current website down below where people can get more information about what resource worldwide do. But are there any tips that you can offer that that might help somebody who's currently in the process of trying to hire somebody with the right skills that you might give them to sort of really help them sort think through some of the issues they need to solve.
Sophie Dearden [00:05:17]:
Yeah. We are going through a big rebrand at the moment. So, hopefully, if you if you check this website out right now, not gonna be that relevant to what I'm talking about because that we've changed direction so much because of the demand for our service in the last 12 months. We've grown significantly. and we started the business working with solar printers and placing virtual assistants into solar panel businesses. And now we've really evolved and we're placing remote professionals into much bigger organizations. the the best tips that I can or the first tip can share is just to be really open minded about how you're hiring. So what we do is we hire remote professionals in four companies from the Philippines. so as long as the role can be done remotely, we can find someone with the skill set to do it. And the reason that we use the Philippines is because there's such huge supply of skill sets for the roles that we're looking to fill. And also it's a super cost effective option for clients because over in the Philippines cost of living significantly less than it is here in the UK. So the first thing I would say is if you've been trying to do the same thing and you've been trying to higher in either your local area and you're not getting the right applicants through or you're getting the right applicants through, but the amount there expecting to be paid is significantly more than your business can afford. There is another solution, and that's where we come in. Secondly, you can use the recruitment companies and they charge big upfront fees and they haven't necessarily delivered the best candidates. Again, that's something we hear a lot from our clients. Then again, the alternative method that we have, there are no upfront fees. and also if it's the wrong fit, we replace them for free for free. There's no kind of sliding scale on it. So be open minded to how you're recruiting Secondly, be really, really clear on what you're actually recruiting for. So have identify the skills that you need, but also identify the type person that you want to attract and what you can offer them. So very often in recruitment, people will just go, oh, I need this person to fill this gap. But actually, you've got to look, if you're trying to attract an a player into your business, what is it that you're gonna offer them? And I'm not talking about pay package and benefits. I'm talking about career progression opportunity. I'm talking about the culture of the company, the vision of the company. How can you help give them a sense of purpose? This is something that when we're recruiting for our clients, we talk about all the time because we wanna make sure when we present the opportunity to the candidates, we're a the very best quality and the very best talent that we can because we're providing them with a real career opportunity. Again, when you're looking to place someone into your business, whether a physical staff member, a remote staff member. If you can attract someone who's gonna be there long term, who's gonna grow into the role, who's gonna grow with the company, it's a much better situation to be in because like I keep saying, if you are recruiting someone, you have poor retention, it's very timely and it's very expensive. So just really thinking about that whole package that you can be offering when you're recruiting your team members. And involve, if you've got staff, involve all of your team or at least all of the department within this, really spend some time having a look at how your staff are spending their time. Because in our experience, if people are doing jobs that they're not either qualified to do or they don't really want to be doing, slightly their productivity is gonna drop. So an exercise that we often will get people to do is we will either get them if they're a solo owner or we'll get the the team that they're looking to fill the gap in to spend some time writing down all of the tasks that each one of them is doing. If they can spend, say, 3 to 5 days writing down all of the tasks that they're doing and then just eliminate first any task that they don't need to do, anything that's not helping reach the company goal or company vision. Sometimes it's tasks that they were doing 5 years ago that were relevant. They're not relevant now, but they're still doing them. So eliminate them first. Is there any tasks there that can be automated? So anything that AI can look after or anything technology. There's so many amazing programs, so many amazing ways to automate your business out. So is there any of those tasks that can be automated? And lastly, is there any of those tasks that can be outsourced in the way that we always make that last decision? or can be handed to someone else is we get people to highlight the things that only they can do and that only they want to do, and it's gonna give them energy and make them more productive again, a thing that we see in larger departments, and we see this as solopreneurs as well. If anyone listening is a solopreneur, you'll know what I'm talking about. I've been there myself, and you feel like you're head is in the weeds. And you're just there and the business is churning, but you're not really growing and the revenue is not really growing. It's probably because you're not doing revenue generating tasks because you haven't got enough time. That continues as the company grows in size. So anything that your team members are doing, that isn't revenue generating or isn't specialist to their skills, but they've just picked up along the way. Those are things that should start to get delegated to a never team member. And that's again, where remote professionals come in. They're very flexible. So it can be part time. It can be full time. it can work on your time zone or any time zone, essentially, So if there is that flexibility element of it, but it's definitely something that most companies haven't done for a long time is actually reviewed what tasks everyone is doing and how productive they're being in doing those tasks.
Stuart Webb [00:10:32]:
Do you know that I I did speak a lot of us lower language, you'll have to hear about automating and delegating those things because there's too many people spend too much of their time doing stuff that I either shouldn't do, or, you know, don't or cling on to something. I often say that too many business owners, even in very large businesses choose the path of least assistance because they're quite determined. Nobody else could do this as well as me. And in actual fact, many people can do it as well if not better than them, and they should be concentrating on, as you say, the revenue generation rather than admin or something else that they think is important, but in actual fact, it's just not really what that a business needs them to be focused on. And there must be something, a book, of course, some some some moan in your life that sort of brought you to the realization that you could help businesses like this. Is is there anything you could point us to that would would help us to understand?
Sophie Dearden [00:11:24]:
Well, for me, I'll give you my kind of short inversion of my longer story. but I went to university in England. So I moved to New Zealand when I was sixteen for 4 years and did ski instructing and had lots of fun. My parents wanted me to go to university. I said I'll go to university, but I want to do a course that I want to do. And that was art. And I did get a 1st class in an art specializing in painting in the renaissance period. but it's not really a career. I mean, I could have had a career as an artist, but opted looked at the financial possibility of success there and opted not to. so I finished my degree and I was kind of left wondering what I was supposed to do with my time. And I set up a gym anyone that's ever worked in the gym bit of personal training space or know that you work insanely hard for very little money. It's moved now. Online coaching, you can make a lot of money in that space, but online coaching wasn't a thing 15, 16 years ago when when I had my gym. so 6 months in, the gym went bump and I was kind of a graduate and in, I think, I was about £31,000 worth of debt from the gym. So I started to work in sales and very quickly, found that I had a real natural ability and ended up setting up my own sales company. So In my twenties, I spent 8 years working 80 to a 120 hours a week, skiing is my favorite thing to do. I didn't go skiing for that 8 years. I made money. I made good money. I had a great lifestyle. Lots of nice handbags, nice fancy cars. lots of VIP parties, but I've lost relationships with friends and family. I missed my parents' 25th wedding anniversary, for example, And my belief at the time was if I work really, really hard now, you know, work hard for 10 years and then the rest of your life, your have all these things that no one else is ever gonna have because they didn't work as hard as you worked. And it's a very old fashioned. It still gets thrown around a lot on social media. you notice the whole, like, you the harder you work, the more that you get, but actually the harder I work, the the more that I seem to lose. And meeting my husband through that company, made me realize. So a year after I met my husband, I actually shut that company down. And that whole experience made me commit that when I set up another company, and it took me a few years before I set up another company, but it made me commit to doing it in a way that, yes, there was going to be great financial a reward, but would never sacrifice my time again. So I had that mentality in place when I set up my next company. And that's what got me looking at working with virtual assistants very early on. I just had a newborn baby. I'd set up a new commerce company, on my maternity leave. and that pattern started to play out again, you know, I put the baby to bed and I'd be working till 1 o'clock in the morning and my husband would get back from his job and I'd say, Hey, I need you to help me pack these orders up. So the pattern was coming back and I thought, I'm I'm gonna learn from my previous company. I'm not gonna do that. So that's why I started working with commercial assistance very quickly outsource and make sure I was using my energy and my time only in the tasks that could generate the revenue. So It was that experience was really, really key. And then secondly, the book that I read around the time that I'd started to think about winding that company down, was Tim Ferris's 4 hour work week. I couldn't imagine it to be true. there's lots of bits in it, which I think are slightly outdated and slightly exaggerated now anyway. But just the concept that you could build company and still have that freedom and flexibility to spend your time traveling having experiences now for me with my family and my children, I thought, well, if if they can, if he can do it, then surely I can do it as well. So I did in my own business, and it was so impactful and so powerful. I got really passionate helping other business owners do the same thing, and that's when resource worldwide was born.
Stuart Webb [00:15:24]:
Brilliant story. I love it. I love it. I love the book. so if there is a question that I'm sure you are currently thinking he still hasn't asked me about. And so, therefore, I'm not gonna give you the opportunity to ask the question that I should have asked. And of course, once you've asked that question, you really do need to answer it for us. So what's the question I should have asked you, which I haven't yet?
Sophie Dearden [00:15:45]:
I think it's more a question, that people would think about themselves before deciding to hire remote professional from outside of the UK. and the question would be, well, why would I hire someone from outside of the UK? when there's, you know, lots of people in the UK that I could hire instead. and again, I'm not necessarily speaking to the solar printer here who's looking to make their 1st hire. I think most entrepreneurs looking to make that 1st hire, it makes sense on every single level to probably invest in a remote professional as opposed to hiring someone because it gives you the flexibility. It's so much more cost effective, all of the things that we talked about. But in answer to that question, we don't believe that you should hire a remote professional over someone in your home country. work a lot. We actually have probably about 70% of our clients in the States. We are just starting to develop our UK market further, at home territory, but just because we've built everything from word-of-mouth, to now, hence, why the marketing piece is coming into play. Most of our clients ended up being from the States. and it's the same it's the same there. It's not that we don't think you should hire in the UK or higher mistakes. And there's massive, massive value in hiring locally. But with the changing landscape, of recruitment and the way people work, there's a huge opportunity to tap into this massive network of talent and skill. that's just a bit further afield, literally, you know, the click of a button, the the cert, the the push of an email. And that's working with remote professionals. And where I really see this and how I see and I'm actually on a podcast next next week, which is where we're talking about the changing landscape of recruitment and retention. in the States, specifically in the construction and real estate industry. the way that I see this and we've seen, we've been running for 3 years, right, and the way that we're seeing this space change and develop sped up because of COVID, of course, everyone's understanding of how accessible actually it is to work remotely, is that if you balance having in house team members who also can work hybrid days or or local team members, but you also have remote professionals. you can build a much stronger company, and you can have a little edge on your competition. So let's say again, back to the skills, let's say that you are a digital marketing agency and we just did a place traditionalizing agency who specifically wanted an expert in Shopify Plus And WordPress. They're based down in Surrey. They've been trying to hire for this role themselves for the last 8 months. locally through recruitment agencies, and they just haven't been able to fill it because of, like I mentioned, the demands of the costs, Sorry, demands of the salaries. the candidates were being offered a position with them and then being coached by another company afterwards because it was so competitive. and then the candidates, 2 of candidates they did start just weren't actually up to scratch at all. So they came to us. We placed a team member in with them 3 months ago. It's they've took him from part time to full time within a month. So it's gone really, really well, but they also have all of their in house team So they've used him to fill a skills gap. They now come to us to fill another skills gap. But what it means is it means there's going to be more money in the company because it is more cost perspective to hire from the Philippines. So that's gonna go towards team bonuses. It's gonna go towards team days. It's gonna go towards more, marketing so that they can expand clients. The services that our guys are able to give them means they're able to expand their services. So again, they're able to build the business out. So it's more looking at how can I use this form of recruitment as a way to deliver better service to my clients, how can I use this form of recruitment as a way to enable the staff currently work with me to have a better experience of working with me, and how can I use this this remote recruitment to actually build my business and achieve my business goals in a more efficient way than I've been doing. So I think the 2 should work together, and we do the same thing. We've got CMO here in K. We're about to hire, operations manager again here in the UK. And by the end of next year, we'll have 4 or 5 key senior team members in the UK. but we also have a team of 12 out in the Philippines. So I think that working together is what's gonna give you the edge. as opposed to it's one or the other.
Stuart Webb [00:20:11]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. So if you thank you so much for bringing that to our attention, I really hope that we get see a lot more of what you're doing and really changing the way in which we're operating as teams. I think it's great. just very quickly before we end. if you would like to get notification of when we do these, chats and if you want to get on the mailing list and you get a copy of this when it comes out or local and Apple Podcasts and places like that. You can go to httpscolonforward/voltash link dot the complete approach. dotco.ukforward/newsletter. That is httpscolonforward/forward/ link dot the complete approach dotco.ukforward/ newsletter. Get on there, let me know about you would like some, some notification and I will send you the email and I'll send you notification of when we do these calls with really interesting people like Sophie, and you can get notification when it comes out on our podcast So if you thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us, I really appreciate you taking us through all of that. I hope when we get to see the website, it will be really spot on, and sort of speak to what you're trying to do, but we'll come back and we'll check-in with you later.
Sophie Dearden [00:21:21]:
Amazing. Thanks so much for having me to do it. Really enjoyed it.
Stuart Webb [00:21:24]:
Really appreciate it. Thank you, Sophie.
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Who is Jo?
Jo Cowper is a business strategist who specializes in helping entrepreneurs and business owners achieve their goals. With a focus on those who have big ideas and dreams but feel stuck in their current situation, Jo provides structured guidance and a proven system to help them overcome obstacles and make significant progress. By helping her clients navigate the challenging journey from where they are to where they want to be, Jo empowers them to take the next steps and reach their true potential. With Jo's expertise, business owners no longer have to dwell on "if only" and can instead turn their aspirations into reality.
Key Takeaways
[00:02:39] Two common challenges when pursuing ideas.
[00:05:01] "Workbook for success: find encouragement and clarity."
[00:09:10] Three steps to turn big vision into reality: clarity, mindset, community support.
[00:13:09] Sign up for the email newsletter at thecompleteapproach.co.uk
[00:14:20] Joe discusses clarity and show link. Good luck!
Valuable Free Resource or Action
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
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Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
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Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
big vision, turning vision into reality, clarity, writing it down, mindset, conviction, goals, trusted individuals, encouragement, support, supportive community, significant difference, big vision workbook, exercises, finding energy, messages, encouragement, clarity, printing out workbook, generating ideas, free workbook, own pace, backward planning, end goal, necessary steps, series of questions, smaller goals, creating a clear path, strategy, accountability
SPEAKERS
Stuart Webb, Jo Cowper
Stuart Webb [00:00:24]:
Hello again, and welcome to It's Not Rocket Science five Questions Over Coffee. I'm delighted to be here with both my coffee, which I probably should be stopping drinking.
This is about the 6th one so far today. Joe, I believe you've got something more like tea in front of you, by the looks of things, which is excellent news. So welcome to the podcast, Joe. Joe is a vision coach. She helps people to take the business they have and transform it to the business they really wanted to have, which I think is a wonderful subject for discussion. Joe, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to the podcast. I hope you're going to enjoy it and please tell us what it is you do. Let's start with my first question. Who do you help and and how do you help them?
Jo Cowper [00:01:12]:
Thanks, Stuart. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's great to be here today. I help business owners, founders, people who have got small businesses and big ideas, people who have really got a big picture of what they'd like to achieve in their business. But perhaps they've had this vision for years, perhaps for a long time, they've been thinking, I could do more than I'm doing right now. I wish I could just take this next step, I wish I could be just serving these slightly different customers. I wish I could be doing these slightly different things. But these ideas haven't yet come to anything because it's hard. There's a long way to go from where they are to where they want to be. There are lots of what, unforeseen stumbling blocks along the way. There's lots of distraction. You're running a business, you're already working flat out and somehow this stuff never comes to fruition. And I help people make that jump in a way that is structured and to follow a system that means that you can actually get where you want to be from where you are to where you want to be, rather than staying stuck where you were in the first place for an endless amount of time thinking, if only. I wish.
Stuart Webb [00:02:16]:
I love it. I love it. Tell me, you often must come across people that have been trying to do this for years. You said that people are stuck because they can't quite make the lead. You've come across those people that are somehow not quite getting there. What is it that you find that they've done that tries to get them out of that position and move forward, which you can help them to overcome?
Jo Cowper [00:02:39]:
Sure. There are two things that can really often happen when you try and do this yourself. And I know I've experienced these two things myself. It's totally normal. One of them is that you just keep on having ideas after ideas after ideas, but you don't actually make the time and space that it's going to take to transform those ideas into anything more solid than that. And so you have all of the excitement. You've got all the vision, you've got this really clear sense, I could definitely do this. But you don't actually ever take that step. Or you start trying to take some step, but then real life comes in, work takes over, you don't get there. And then a couple of years down the line, nothing has happened. That's the first common thing that can happen. And then the second common thing that can happen is you think, yes, I've got this brilliant, great idea, I'm going to do it straight away. And you set off. But you haven't actually done the thinking that needs to be done along the way and so you're throwing yourself a million miles now into this thing and for whatever reason, perhaps you haven't thought it all through fully. Perhaps it doesn't really quite stack up. Perhaps once you get it out of your head and put it into reality it doesn't quite make sense. I mean, I think there's something that you'll find. One thing that I'll do with my clients all the time is get them to really write down stuff about their vision, about their customers, about where they are now, ask them to really tough questions and these are often things that you think you already knew. It's easy to tell yourself when you're doing all in the privacy of your own head, I know this, this is easy, I can answer this question. When you come to actually try to make sense of it, you say there's a gaps in here. Actually it doesn't make quite as much sense as I thought it did. And so what I'll do is pose these questions in the right order and insist on filling the gaps so that instead of wasting off 1000 miles an hour, you can actually tackle it in a way that's systematic and that you can see is turning your big vision into a real reality.
Stuart Webb [00:04:26]:
I love it. I absolutely love it. Joe, I hope I've got this right. You've got some great ideas, I think, on your website that can help people with this sort of visioning. What can you tell us about how you can help them? And I'm going to put up the link that you showed us or you told me about before we started. So I hope that I've got the right link and you're about to tell us about what you can get from your website which can help people with this first steppers as they start this journey.
Jo Cowper [00:04:55]:
Good, I hope it's the right link too.
Stuart Webb [00:04:56]:
I believe it is technology, Joe. We'll get there, we'll get there.
Jo Cowper [00:05:01]:
Well look, there's something there, right there. There's an incentive. Go there and see what you find. Now what I've created actually is what I've called a big vision workbook and this is about giving yourself a support kit for success because having the big idea isn't hard. Anybody can have a big idea, right? We've all had dozens of big ideas, I'm sure. But the tricky bit is going through the tough moments that come between having the great idea and feeling totally discouraged after guardian know, this is too hard, I can't do this. I don't know why do they ever think I could in the first place? I feel so alone, all of this stuff. So I've created this workbook so that you can, from where you are right now, prepare your own toolkit for success, the stuff that's going to support you when it gets hard. And so in this workbook, you're going to work through seven different exercises, all about finding the energy, the messages, the encouragement and clarity that's going to keep you going all the way towards that vision and starting to put in place an action plan that will help you to get from where you are to where you want to be. It's totally free. It's something you can do in your own time. Totally recommend that you print it out because that goes back to what I was speaking about before. That when you actually put pen to paper and you write stuff down. I'm looking around myself with all the paper where I've written stuff down, the ideas will flow more freely.
Stuart Webb [00:06:18]:
I tell you the other point about what you've just said about writing it down, and that is when you've got those ideas, I find it really helpful to stick them on the walls around me because they're very visual reminders. You cannot have things just put away in a drawer. They have to be out around you so that you can see it. So having something written down so that once you've written it, you sort of put it on a wall or put it on your desk or whatever, it's so much more useful to you than just leaving it in a drawer and going, well, that's great, I've done all that. I can get back on with the day job now. You've got to have these things in front of you, haven't you Joe?
Jo Cowper [00:06:51]:
I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I really couldn't agree more. And that's actually in my full program. That the paid for program as opposed to the freebie. That's one of the important things that you get to at the end. That you'll literally have a one pager of all the stuff that you know that you need to commit to and do. So that whenever the next opportunity, the next distraction comes along, you've got this one pager which printed out, you stick it on your wall. No, that's where I'm going. Okay, that's why I'm going there. So important.
Stuart Webb [00:07:18]:
I love it. Was there a particular book or course or time in your life which helped you to sort of make the realization that you have to have these visions and you have to sort of move towards these things on the journey that you've just spoken about?
Jo Cowper [00:07:36]:
Well, the system that for me has been transformational in this is a system called backward planning and I learned about this on Gosh, I think on a border way day several jobs ago and it really stuck with me. And it's this idea that you start with the end in sight. You don't start by thinking, right, kind of going roughly over there what should we do now? Now you get really clear on the destination and then you work back. I can't get another image sorted out to get my hand in the screen but you work back and so you ask yourself a series of questions to always frame this. In order to do this I will need first to have achieved blah. In order to achieve that I will need first to have achieved blah. And what you do that is you reliably come back to an action that you can take, you follow it down to its conclusion, you'll come to an action that you can take right now or a goal that's small enough for you to work towards today. Today like now. Now that you know is leading you all the way to where you want to go and then you just keep on following that. You've retrofitted your path and you follow it brilliant.
Stuart Webb [00:08:37]:
Love it. Love it. Joe, I've spent the last ten minutes sort of asking you a bunch of questions and there must be one, I suspect that you're thinking when's he ever going to get to the really important question? So here is my opening to you. There must be a question I haven't asked. There must be a way that you are wanting to express something but I haven't yet asked it. Please tell me what is the question that I should have asked you by now? And obviously once you've told me the question you have to answer it because I don't know the answer. What is the question I should have asked you? What is the answer to that question?
Jo Cowper [00:09:10]:
Okay, so I think that the kind of burning question is what does it take to go from being somebody who's got a big vision? We've all got a big vision. What do I have to do? What can I do right now? If I really want to turn that into something real and I want to do it this year. I want not to be sitting here in twelve months time still thinking I've got all these great ideas, I've got these great ideas. What can I do straight away without having to pay anything to anybody, without having to buy any service, without having to take a massive leap and change my website, change my direction? What can I do easily now? What could anybody do? And the answer to that yes. Well, there are three things that anybody, anybody could do right now. First one is get really clear on that vision. So write it down and the work I've spoken to about will help with that. The second thing is your mindset. It's also well, jumping into this is what I'll have to do, this is the strategy I'll have to enact and I have to say for years in my career and in my business, I honestly fell into this trap of thinking, strategy is enough, I know what to do, I'm going to do it. It's not without that mindset, things will get hard. You really need to work on this conviction. What's going to keep you going? What do you really believe in? What is it to you? So mindset. The third thing that you can put in place for yourself right now, that will be a game changer, is tell people who you trust, people who will encourage you about what you're trying to do, because they will encourage you. They will get your back. They will give you a kick when you need it and say, look, hey, didn't you say that you were going to do this thing? Didn't you convince me of that last week when didn't believe you? Didn't you just tell me it was going to be great? So come on. And so having the clarity, the mindset and the people, the community around you is what will make the difference between you still sitting in the same place in a year's time thinking, wouldn't it be great, wouldn't it be great if I was working differently, living differently, helping different people make it happen?
Stuart Webb [00:11:10]:
Brilliant. I do absolutely buy in. And you're absolutely right, strategy is great, but implementation is better and accountability is the key to making those things happen. Because if you keep it in your head, once again we go back to the sort of it's in your head, nobody is going to turn around and go, whatever happened. And then you feel that, oh yeah, I should go on with it, shouldn't I? Having somebody who's just going to hold you to account is so valuable. It doesn't need to be anything more than just a two minute sort of reminder that that's where you were supposed to be going to kick you back into action. It's the most valuable thing in the world, isn't it? Everybody needs to have some form of accountability to make sure that they're delivering on the promise that they set themselves.
Jo Cowper [00:11:56]:
I think so. And having people who get it, they understand that you want to do this crazy thing, so why don't you just go and get yourself a job like everybody else? They understand that you've got a drive, you've got a vision, you really want to make a difference, get people around you like that and you'll support each other. It doesn't have to be a lonely business.
Stuart Webb [00:12:17]:
Love it. Love it. Joe, it's been an absolute delight having you here listening to this because I think what you're talking about is the thing that just about every business owner needs to have in their life. They need that vision. They need the transformation from where they are into what they really actually set out and wanted. So thank you for coming on and describing it. Thank you for giving us this free tip and for telling us about how you can help them get there.
Jo Cowper [00:12:46]:
Thank you, Stuart, for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's my first ever LinkedIn life experience as well, so I'm excited to go back and see what I've done to my LinkedIn feast.
Stuart Webb [00:12:56]:
And you got through without actually sort of collapsing and the whole world ending as you expected, didn't it?
Jo Cowper [00:13:03]:
Yeah, and I didn't even touch my tea, so I feel should have made a coffee, shouldn't I?
Stuart Webb [00:13:09]:
So, listen, everybody, thank you so much. If you would like to get onto our email list so that you receive an email pretty much every week which says who's going to be on the podcast. Sort of interesting people that are going to be coming on so that you too can get brilliant advice like Joe has been giving us today, go to this link, which is link thecompleetproach Co UK. That's link thecompleetproach Co UK newsletter. That's link the completeaproach Co UK newsletter. That will take you to the newsletter sign up page. You just get a simple email from me, basically saying who's on what they're going to be talking about. Please come and ask whatever questions you want. Joe, thank you so much for coming on and allowing us to listen to your wonderful vision stuff. I do encourage people to go back to Joe's website, six Degrees East Co UK home hashtag vision. That's home hashtag vision. That's where you'll find that free booklet, seven Steps, seven pages, something like that.
Jo Cowper [00:14:16]:
Joe seven Steps.
Stuart Webb [00:14:20]:
Getting your clarity. That link will be in the show notes as well. So thank you, Joe, so much for coming along and talking to us, really appreciate it and good luck with the rest of the afternoon.
Jo Cowper [00:14:32]:
Thank you, Stuart. Been a real pleasure. Thank you much for having me. Have a great afternoon. Please.
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Who is Emma?
Emma Westley is a marketing expert who understands the challenges that startups face, especially during uncertain economic times. With her expertise, she helps companies do more with less by coming up with creative solutions that allow them to market their products efficiently within limited budgets. Emma firmly believes in the importance of providing value to customers and helps businesses develop marketing strategies that resonate with their target market, ultimately adding value to the company and its customers.
Key Takeaways
[00:03:01] Reducing budgets and unrealistic expectations thwart success.
[00:05:11] Part-time senior freelance work gaining traction.
[00:07:59] Flexible work schedule for multiple companies.
[00:14:50] Fractional work attracts people with many interests.
[00:17:12] Emma discusses fractional senior management, subscribe.
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
fractional work, self-development, time management, flexibility, leadership, teamwork, communication, urgent matters, problem-solving, Talk Like Ted, marketing, startups, "rule of three", Apple, internal presentations, It's Not Rocket Science Five Questions over Coffee, technical difficulties, Emma Wesley, Emerge IO, chief marketing officer, part-time work, job market, budget constraints, productization, positioning, marketing unicorns, senior management, podcast, newsletter subscription, growing businesses.
SPEAKERS
Stuart Webb, Emma Westley
Speaker A [00:00:21]:
Hello and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five Questions over coffee in front of me. I have a good strong cup of coffee because I need it right at the moment because there was a slight technical failure before this started which I had to fix. Always love it when a plan comes together. But I'm here today with Emma, emma Wesley, who runs Emerge, Emerge IO, a small business marketing company. She is a fractional chief marketing officer. She works for small businesses as their marketing officer and I hope we can have a really great session talking about that today. Emma, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B [00:00:58]:
Thank you Stuart, nice to be on. And I unfortunately don't have coffee because I don't drink coffee, but I have tea. So I hope that's acceptable tea is.
Speaker A [00:01:06]:
Tea is as acceptable as anything else is. I would suggest that glasses of wine whilst you're doing this are probably a bit one stage too far, but that's how you so Emma, tell us about the sort of people you help with their business growth.
Speaker B [00:01:24]:
Sure. So I predominantly focus on b to B companies. I've done a 20 plus year stint working with B to B companies. So that is my lane, I will stick in it. But I mainly help startups, tech startups and early stage AI startups for example. And then additionally service based companies, professional services or other service based businesses, small businesses and maybe creeping up into the medium sized as well.
Speaker A [00:01:58]:
What's the problem they've got that you help them to solve?
Speaker B [00:02:03]:
So I think at the moment especially the biggest problem is doing more with less. That's something that probably a lot of startups will know anyway for years. But especially at the moment, with continued uncertain economic times, limited budgets, maybe not getting the funding that they need. All of those factors are sort of coming together at the moment. And what quite often happens in these sorts of situations is marketing is hit with budget cuts. And it is this whole, like, doing more with less money, less resource. But those companies still knowing that they've got a viable, a good solution with platform or a service that they know will add value to the customers that they're trying to sell into.
Speaker A [00:02:54]:
And what have they done to try and overcome those problems that you help them to sort of fix with your services?
Speaker B [00:03:01]:
So very often when I get into a company start working with them, what I see is they've tried sort of doing everything but just scaling budgets back. So if for example, they're doing paid, some sort of paid marketing, all they've done is just reduce the budget on that marketing and hope for the same results. Or the other big danger is on the resource side and this has been going on for years, but it's happening more and more at the moment is companies trying to find these marketing unicorns so they'll think, okay, we need someone in to help and what does that person look like. And so they start listing out all the sorts of responsibilities that that person will have. And when it comes to marketing, it'll be SEO, content marketing, paid marketing, lead gen, demand gen, and the list goes on. And what they end up getting is maybe a candidate. Although a lot of them struggle trying to find the right people. But they'll get someone in who's who's not right for the business and has not got the right skill set and they're just expecting too much of this. Person because one person can't always cover all of those different areas and yeah, they just end up either handholding them or not achieving the goals and especially the, the business goals, because with that process, they'll often find that their marketing stuff is not aligned with their business goals as well.
Speaker A [00:04:39]:
And that's where you come in with your service and what you do to help.
Speaker B [00:04:46]:
So mainly in terms of the amount of time I spend as a company, so I'm fractional, and this term fractional is gaining a lot of grind at the moment.
Speaker A [00:05:00]:
And I just wanted to make sure everybody understands fractional, because that is a bit of a new term. So I think we need to define it, tell us what fractional means. And it doesn't mean that you're only half a person, I presume, or maybe.
Speaker B [00:05:11]:
Even a quarter, I don't know, maybe soon, maybe that'll be part of the AI cloning revolution, will be cutting myself in half or something. So there's a few different definitions at the moment because it's such a new term and I think companies and people like myself are sort of trying to work out what that term actually means. I've been doing it for about five years now, and it certainly wasn't called fractional a couple of years ago. So it is sort of a term that people are getting used to, but essentially it's being part time at a company, usually at a more senior level. So at a leadership level, or at least director level, but not being a part time employee, so you're still a freelance resource, so the company isn't having to pay benefits or overhead associated with even a part time employee. So you're still a freelance, self employed or whatever. And yes, you're working on a part time basis, but at a more senior level. And what I find with the companies that I've worked with is I'm definitely embedded in those companies. I feel like I'm a part of the team. When I work for a company, I'm really focused on it. I'm committed to their goals. I wear the T shirts, as would often be described, but maybe that afternoon I'm doing the same thing for another company. Or on a Tuesday I do it for one company, on a Thursday I do it for another. Something like that. So it's a difficult concept to get your head around and it certainly only works for certain types of companies, very often remote companies that are used to asynchronous working, that sort of thing. And certainly something that's gaining traction at the moment, partly because of the market, the way the job market is changing currently as well.
Speaker A [00:07:24]:
This is a balancing app for you. You know that you have to switch mindsets, you have to switch focus and you're as present and you are as involved in company A as you are in company B and you don't allow any distractions from one. But how does the business owner manage their involvement with you? Because on a Wednesday a need might crop up and you're not technically working for them on a Wednesday. So how do they manage that aspect of their lives?
Speaker B [00:07:59]:
So I find the best way is actually being more flexible for companies. So rather than doing it on set days, I work set days for set companies is just saying you've got X amount of time or X amount of my sort of resource. But I will be flexible with that throughout the week. So I will still commit to going to their meetings on their schedules. If they've got specific leadership meetings or team meetings that need to happen, I will attend those. And it does take a little bit of as a fractional, it takes a little bit of juggling, a lot of sort of different calendars and different ways of working for different companies. But once you get used to it and you find the right balance for yourself as well, then it works. And from a company perspective, they can just call on me if they need support, if it's urgent or whatever, and as long as I can do something relatively soon, then that's fine. So just as a quick example, regardless of how many sort of companies I'm working for at any one time, I will have all of their email clients open at the same time. So if something urgent pops up, I can jump on it or I can assess it, at least I can look at it and go, okay, that doesn't need to be fixed immediately. And then obviously communication is key. So if somebody does try and get in touch with me, what I can do is at least ping them and say give me five minutes and I'll call you. Or at least that sort of regular communication so that people know where I am and if I am or I'm not available. And then finally I think there are for companies as well, it helps them focus, so it helps them sort of understand actually is that important, is it urgent? A bit like going back to the whole urgent priority matrix. It makes them think a little bit more about actually is it important, does it really need to be fixed at the moment or can it wait? And very often what happens is in that waiting, the issue is fixed or a solution will come up. Jumping on things straight away is not always the best approach.
Speaker A [00:10:30]:
I know that you've got a valuable free offer for people, and this is a sort of 30 minutes session free with you in order to sort of get people clear on some of the things they want to sort of sort out in their business. So do you want to tell us about the 30 minutes session?
Speaker B [00:10:50]:
Yeah, so I've called it a pick your brain session, which a lot of people will obviously recognize and sure, lots of other people get asked about, you know, can I pick your brain? And it's a 30 minutes session either for companies that want to explore what fractional is, you know, is it right for them, would it work for them, especially if it's in the marketing area? Maybe it's for startups that are feeling a bit constrained, a bit pinched at the moment with budgets and thinking, I know I need to do that, but I don't have enough money for it. So what are the other options resource wise that I can pull in or I can leverage? And then on the flip side, I also do these sessions for other fractionals. So people looking to get into fractional work, maybe if they've just been made redundant or they're thinking about actually a slightly different way of working, I can sort of share some of the things that I did certainly did wrong along the fractional journey. Any other sort of tips and advice for how to get started and things like productizing services or packages, positioning, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker A [00:12:08]:
Brilliant. So there must have been some book or course which started your journey into sort of learning this. So what was the spark? What was the thing which started you in this journey towards both marketing and fractional? Marketing Officer.
Speaker B [00:12:26]:
I don't think there was any one book that sort of got me into fractional, but there is one book that I always come back to in terms of how I work and how I do my marketing, especially with startups. And it's a book called Talk Like Ted by Carmine Gallio. It'll seem completely random, but basically this guy, Carmen Gallio, he's been through lots and lots of Ted talks and he's analyzed which are the good ones, which get engagement, how do people pitch their talks. It's fascinating insights into the world of Ted, I suppose, as well. But the thing that I really grasped onto and love is he talks about this rid of three and how the brain is primed to think in threes. There's some sort of mathematical side to it in terms of pattern recognition, but also it's a good number for people to grasp as it's not too few, but not too many, basically. And so I just use it for everything. When I'm actually doing my marketing work, positioning statements or trying to come up with marketing plans, I use the rill of three. If I'm doing my own sort of thinking through concepts, I always try and sort of bucket into three concepts. I think in the book he also mentions that it's something that Apple use quite a lot and especially their leadership follow this rule, especially when they're doing sort of internal presentations. And it's so simple, but it really works. It's brilliant. It's really good for remembering things as well.
Speaker A [00:14:21]:
Yeah, it is a good concept. Emma, we've been chatting for a little while and there must be a question that's burning in your head that I haven't yet asked you. So rather than me sort of trying to guess what that is, I'm just going to ask you to tell us what the question is you would like us to have discussed, and then obviously you've then got the job of answering it as well. So I haven't got any work to do in the next few minutes. So over to you. What is the question I should have asked and then would you please answer it?
Speaker B [00:14:50]:
Yeah. So going back to the whole fractional thing, I think one of the interesting questions at the moment is why so many people are attracted to fractional as a way of work. And I've been having quite a lot of conversations recently with people either getting into fractional for getting started or have been doing it maybe a few years or a longer time. And I think I'm coming up with this sort of common personality thread of people who are drawn to fractional are people who like to juggle many balls, but it's not that they want to go part time or they want to sort of necessarily reduce the amount that they're working. It's that they just want to do work differently. And they want to also have time for self development, learning, being able to just having that head space to go right. I saw this tool the other day that someone recommended. I'm going to go and actually dig into it and learn a little bit about it. And ironically, that sort of self development actually then helps the clients that fractionals are working on because you're getting it for free as a company because you're not having to pay for that development time. But I see that as a really common thread with people like myself, that I just want a little bit of space for myself, but I'm not going to go off and just go to the pub or something in that time. I'm actually going to do something that's useful for the clients and for the business.
Speaker A [00:16:32]:
They get a lot of value from that.
Speaker B [00:16:34]:
Yes, definitely. Without realizing.
Speaker A [00:16:39]:
And I guess they got access to a fairly senior, well experienced person for a fraction of the price they pay because otherwise they can only afford 20% of the budget for a senior person, they'd end up with a very junior person. And so they're getting a huge amount of experience for a lot less capital outlet.
Speaker B [00:17:00]:
Yes, definitely. That's the first and foremost thing of fractional, is getting that senior experience, but at a fraction of the cost. Yeah, absolutely brilliant.
Speaker A [00:17:12]:
Emma, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us and opening our eyes to the new world of this fractional senior manager. I'm just going to invite people, if you would like, to get onto our newsletter list so that you get to hear about what we're doing and who's going to be coming up in the next week or so, please go to the link on the screen. At the moment, it is https link thecompletroach co uknewsletter that is link. Thecompletroach Co UK newsletter. Join the newsletter. You'll get an email about once a week which just sort of explains who's coming up, what they've got to talk about and how you can get more detail about who they are. And obviously, at some stage you'll also hear about when this gets released, not only live like it is now, but when it comes out on the podcast. And I would really ask you, please subscribe to the podcast and tell all your friends about it because that helps us to get even better guests. More information out to you about how you can grow your business. Emma, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. Really appreciate you spending the time and I hope that the fractional work continues to go well.
Speaker B [00:18:27]:
Yes, fingers crossed. I think it's definitely a gaining movement, so hopefully more companies will pick up on it. And thank you, Stuart, for having me on.
Speaker A [00:18:37]:
No problem at all. Thank you very much.
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Who is Sean?
Sean Courtney is a creative problem solver who believes in bespoke solutions for individuals and businesses. As a dyslexic, Sean struggled with call center scripts and created a guided call guide that helped him flow through calls smoothly. This innovation helped him pass his audits and grow his potential in the business, leading to many promotions. Sean's focus is on creating bespoke solutions to help unlock the superpowers within the neurodiverse community.
Key Takeaways
[00:02:34] Improved call guide reduces anxiety, improves performance.
[00:05:50] Diversity advocates, unmasked, ADHD book, Dyslexia fonts.
[00:09:32] Simple and cost-effective solutions for inclusivity.
[00:11:26] Subscribe to our newsletter and podcast.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
www.missing-piece.uk
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
https://youtube.com/live/qfYZRdZxgVU?feature=share
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
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Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
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It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Inclusion, diversity, neurodiverse employees, keynote speeches, team leaders, social anxiety, structured environment, call centers, newsletter, podcast, Sean, positive feedback, bespoke solutions, dyslexia, call guide, superpowers, self-esteem, outside the box, cost-effective solutions, simple solutions, coaching course, productivity, longevity, missing peace, coffee, inclusivity, diversity within websites, fonts, colors, tools, empowering, unlocking potential.
SPEAKERS
Sean Courtney, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science. My questions over coffee. I have my coffee muki in front of me which has got coffee in it. I need that coffee mind at the moment. And I'm here with Sean Courtney. Sean is neurodiverse. He is really trying to help drive the inclusivity and options for people who have got diversity. Sean, I'm really grateful to have you on the podcast. I love the fact that you're empowering diversity and unlocking potential. So welcome to it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee.
Sean Courtney [00:00:56]:
Amazing. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Stuart Webb [00:00:59]:
Brilliant stuff. Look, sure. Talk to us a little bit about how you do help those customers of yours and unlock that wonderful potential.
Sean Courtney [00:01:09]:
Yeah, perfectly. So, I mean, the first thing I started to realize is that one size doesn't fit all. So what I do is I create bespoke creative solutions for the individual or within a team based solution if it is working within a business. One of the things I've created was known as a guided call guide. The Dyslexic myself, I struggled when I was working in call centers to follow the standard script that they give you. So I created a guided call guide which allowed me to understand when I needed to pause, when I needed to allow the customer to speak. And after a while, that call guide allowed me to flow through the call really well and signed. But I start to pass my audits, which made my potential within the business grow, making it more possible for me to be promoted within the business. So, yeah, just bespoke solutions that really like to release the superpowers, I call it, within the neurodiverse community.
Stuart Webb [00:02:12]:
I absolutely love that. I love the fact that you were able to do that and I know there must be a bunch of people who struggle with that. So do you find you now find yourself in situations where you are able to get in front of those sort of customers and help them to do exactly that? What things have they done that you're able to sort of spot and help them with?
Sean Courtney [00:02:34]:
Yeah. So there's a couple of examples there. So one of the things that I've done is I've worked with a young lad that's working in the call center at the moment, struggling to sort of pass his audits. They got to go through the same sort of disciplinary action as anybody else would need to. Reached out, had a look at his call guide, and by making the call guide more of a structure, so it's a more of a flow guide, if you will, in order to follow it made it easier for him to understand what he was doing. There was a section that is just literally introduction and it takes all the way through to the end of the call in the sense of the call guide itself. It's also color coded. So rather than having to remember where he is in the particular call guide, if somebody was to say, I'm sorry, what was that? He said, you only have to remember the color, which makes it easier for him to pick up where they left off and it doesn't send them into sort of a panic situation and start to cause things like telephone anxiety and kicking off anxiety. That makes it very difficult for them to continue the call, so it makes it more controlled and puts the power back in their hands in order to be able to do their job more effectively.
Stuart Webb [00:03:46]:
Sean, I absolutely love that. I think that's brilliant. And if we can't find more call centers out there that needs advice from people like you, I don't know what we're all doing wrong. Sean, listen, tell me you've got a great website. What advice do you put on your website? And I'm going to put the website now for people to have a look, which is missingpeace. UK, what sort of advice do you have on that website which you think would be valuable for the audience to know about?
Sean Courtney [00:04:18]:
I think the thing to take from the website is the website is a bit of more of a journey, so it introduces what it is that I do, and the idea is to increase self esteem. The idea is to take that self doubt and stick it in a box and put it away. As a neurodiverse person myself, I'm literally sort of wired to think outside the box and that is exactly what my website is promoting. I've been in many corporate meetings with many managers who said, look, we need some solutions and we need you to think outside the box. The neurodiverse community do that without even thinking. That is exactly what they're wired to do. So some of the creative solutions that I come up with are based on the fact that I am neurodiverse and I think that's what my website promotes. There's some great information on how to get in contact with me so we can have a chat. And I think it's a nice, simple, to the point, straightforward, structured website for you to have a look at and see what it is that I do, how I promote my business and what is on offer should you need my help.
Stuart Webb [00:05:21]:
Brilliant stuff. Brilliant. Sean, you've given us a short history there of your own journey, but there must be other courses or books or other things that you would like us to be able to know about in order to help explain both diversity and your own journey. So what would you advise for people to sort of understand or read or get to know better?
Sean Courtney [00:05:50]:
There's many different people out there that are really sort of flying the flag for diversity. Some of the people that are on sort of LinkedIn and Facebook include Ellie Middleton. She has amazing little unmasked. It's called Unmasked and they send you a little leaflet out where you can read about what it is that she does. A little PDF, a book that I helped, that helped my colleague who's ADHD was a book from Leanne Mascara called ADHD A to Z. What an amazing book that was. I got that on Audible just purely because of how my Dyslexia works. Sometimes one of the things I would research are Dyslexic fonts. Some people don't realize that there is an open Dyslexia font which is easier for people like myself to read because the letters are weighted at the bottom and they're slightly moved apart. That's not the only font that will help you with Dyslexia, obviously. There's comic stands as well. All these fonts are available but never really used. And sometimes it can make the difference between having to take somebody to one side and explain what it is that you want them to do when you're giving out a form at work or literally giving them the update. Or the sheet that you want them to understand and allowing them to just pick it up and ask the same questions anybody else would.
Stuart Webb [00:07:15]:
I think that's really valuable advice, actually, Sean, I must admit, I've seen now there are some people who are beginning to think about diversity within their websites in terms of changing fonts, changing colors, allowing people to sort of use rulers and things like that in order to sort of allow them to focus on one line or one section at a time without being distracted by a lot of things around on the website. So people are becoming aware of this, but you're right, there's not nearly enough known, not enough thought, not enough consideration for how to make these things more widely available so that everybody's included. And I know that inclusion is one of the important things that you think about in the way that you're doing work within the Missing Piece.
Sean Courtney [00:08:00]:
Absolutely, yeah. Inclusion is key. I mean, that's the thing that Missing Piece is setting up to change. I want the inclusion to be the main message. We're going into businesses and starting to do keynote speeches is something I'm bringing Missing Piece into. So I'm hoping to go into as many businesses as I can and do some talks on diversity and inclusiveness because once it starts at the top and works your way down, it doesn't become such an awkward subject. It's nice and simple to kind of teach the team leaders and teach the team and understand that okay, you may have somebody in the industry that you're working with that may be neurodiverse. It just means that they do things. A little simpler example would be maybe start 15 minutes early to avoid any social anxiety. Finish 15 minutes early to avoid the same thing. Give them a set place to sit in order to allow them to have that structure in place. And that sort of works really well for them. But unfortunately, sometimes that's missed when you have call centers, that hot seat.
Stuart Webb [00:09:10]:
Brilliant stuff, Sean. Look, I spent the last few minutes asking you questions and you're probably wondering when I'm going to get to the important one that I haven't asked. So I'm now going to give you that opportunity to tell me the question that I should have asked you and then obviously you get the pleasure of answering the question that I should have asked you. So what's that important question that I should have asked that I haven't yet?
Sean Courtney [00:09:32]:
I guess the most important question that you haven't asked yet is what is a simple solution and what is cost effective? There's a lot of things that are cost effective within this simple changes. What missing piece is trying to promote is that businesses don't have to break the budget in order to make sure that they're being inclusive. The chances are they're already doing it. That just needs tweaking. It's just making sure that if we work together that we are creating changes that are going to be implemented. It's a little bit like anything, you go and do a coaching course and you take all that information. If you don't implement it, nothing's going to change. Phil M. Jones once said that knowledge isn't power. The implementation of that knowledge is power and that's what makes the difference. You can have all the knowledge in the world. So when we go out and we do keynote speeches and we talk about how things can change and what you need to do, it's important that people implement those changes because they're going to make the world of the difference. Not just for your business, because you're going to increase the productivity of these individuals within the industry, but also for the longevity of the staff within the business.
Stuart Webb [00:11:01]:
Brilliant stuff, Sean. Thank you so much for being here for just a few minutes and talking about that. I think it's such an important object and I think you're doing a great job to promote it. I'm hoping that we're going to get you a lot more people following you because of your appearance here on It's Not Rocket Science Five Questions Over Coffee. So thank you for spending a few.
Sean Courtney [00:11:19]:
Minutes with us and thanks for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure and no problem. Thank you again. Thank you so much.
Stuart Webb [00:11:26]:
Look, everybody, I'd just like you to subscribe to our newsletter because that's how we can get to tell you about some of the great guests that we've got coming up on this podcast. So go on to the link that you can see on the bottom of the stage that's link thecompletroach Co UK newsletter and of course, like and subscribe to the podcast and tell all your friends about how you get to hear about great people. I know, I know lots of comments from people about some of the great guests we've had, like Sean who are bringing you really interesting comments and discussion points that business owners need to know about today. So get onto the website, link thecomplete Approach Co UK newsletter. Subscribe to the newsletter, you'll get an email from me about once a week just telling you who's coming up, what they're going to be talking about, and you get on and help to promote their businesses and connect with them on LinkedIn. Sean, thank you so much for being with us. Really appreciate you spending a few minutes. I know you've got a great topic to talk about here, so let's hope that we hear more businesses who are listening to what you've got to say about it.
Sean Courtney [00:12:28]:
Amazing. Thank you so much.
Stuart Webb [00:12:29]:
No problem.
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Who is Sonny?
Sonny Kurmi is a professional who helps clients bridge the gap between where they are and where they want to be. He is an expert in creating plans and strategies that help individuals move closer to achieving their goals. With his experience and knowledge, he helps clients to better understand their future and create a path towards achieving their aspirations. Sonny Kurmi is a true professional who takes pride in his ability to help others achieve their dreams.
Key Takeaways
[00:02:29] Helping clients bridge gap between goals & reality.
[00:03:28] Speak to financial professionals or read books.
[00:07:46] Teen job offer leads to career magic.
[00:10:20] Interview with "Sonny" from Sonny, appreciated.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
https://youtube.com/live/z7TrGSsBuVw
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
Find out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguest
Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
Help us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!
Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Lloyd's TSB, accountancy, finance, financial advice, financial advisor, goals, budgeting, client conversations, family background, networker, business advice, LinkedIn, unqualified help, problem-solving, Google, Netflix, financial triangle, Money Explained.
SPEAKERS
Sonny Kurmi, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:21]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five Questions Over Coffee. Are Am here with my coffee mug. I'm here with Sonny. Sonny Comey is sonny is a great networker and a financial charter planner and he has got some great advice for businesses. And so Sonny, we're going to spend 5 minutes now talking to you about your business and about how you help businesses. So welcome to it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee. Sunny.
Sonny Kurmi [00:00:47]:
Well, thank you. Good morning. Thank you for opportunity, Stuart. Appreciate it. Of course. Nervous as well, which is always good, isn't it?
Stuart Webb [00:00:58]:
It's just the internet. Tell me, what are the things that you help your customers do?
Sonny Kurmi [00:01:06]:
Ultimately, I think literally in a sentence it would be be less scared and in more control of their financial future. In a nutshell, that's exactly what I do in one sentence.
Stuart Webb [00:01:22]:
Okay, and what are the problems that the businesses you help have made? What have they tried to do without getting the help that you provide them with?
Sonny Kurmi [00:01:35]:
I think the problem that they make probably would probably more so be speaking to unqualified family members, relatives, friends, or using the likes of Google to try and understand what their problem is. Two, how to resolve it with things like Google or whatever it may be. It will only answer the question that you've asked. But if you don't know what question that you need answering, how are you going to get the answer? Does that make sense?
Stuart Webb [00:02:17]:
Yeah, the problem is that the answer is very much dependent upon the right sort of question, isn't it? And you need somebody with experience like you to ask the right question, don't you?
Sonny Kurmi [00:02:29]:
That's exactly it, isn't it? It's about having that conversation, because sometimes for the clients themselves, you've got to sit down with them and actually get them to start thinking about what is it that they want to achieve and then understand where they are today and then kind of bridge that gap or at least create the plans to at least move them one step closer. But I'd say, yeah, most individuals probably don't know what they want to be doing in 10, 20, 30 years down the line. And that's kind of like where I come in and other furniture devices as well. It's by helping them understand the future where we are today. And then we're obviously in between the planning approach.
Stuart Webb [00:03:11]:
Okay, I get it sonny, there must be something, some valuable piece of advice, something you can give people now that will help them to understand that without sort of get them started on that journey of understanding how they do that and build their wealth portfolio.
Sonny Kurmi [00:03:28]:
Yeah, no, of course. Ultimately I would always be an advocate of speaking to professionals. Now one thing that I think is quite important to mention here is there are a number of different types of financial advisors. They all get paid in different ways but ultimately having a conversation with someone is free. There will be people that your friends know, your family know, pick up the call and just say, look, ultimately I wanted to get more control over my finances or start saving for the future, whatever it may be. But I don't know where to start a conversation with someone that's a qualified professional will always be able to assist in regards to getting the ball moving. But if someone wants to do it off their own back, there's a number of different books that one can read. There's a lot of information and resources. You see the word I used, there was information and resources that are out there and that might give you a great understanding of exactly what is planning, what is finance, what is debt, what is budgeting, what is savings, what's investments. You can get bombarded. But it all comes down to time. It all comes down to what you're trying to achieve. Why is it important for you today? And how much time have you got to allocate it to that time?
Stuart Webb [00:04:54]:
Brilliant. Look, there must be a book or a course or something that you took or read which really sort of started you to understand your journey. What is that thing that you can recommend to the audience that might help them to understand how they should be putting their financial future ahead of whatever else they're doing at the moment?
Sonny Kurmi [00:05:13]:
Yeah, no, one of the concepts is a quite good one, actually. It always stays with me and it is fairly textbook, but it's still quite relevant in today's world that we live in. It's the financial triangle. That's something that people can just quickly research and it will show you the hierarchy as the pyramid gets to the top. What you should be thinking about later down life, what you should have, ie. Your foundations. That's a great concept to potentially follow here. I say it ultimately to be the right thing for the right person. But something that I've watched, which was I find quite interesting, especially for people that want to just get a quick overview of certain areas or finance is a program called Money Explained Netflix. They've got three different series and that is quite fascinating, I have to admit. That was quite good because it's 20 minutes per clip and it gives you just a little bit of an understanding of that one topic and the world that we live in today. So those two things I would say go and see, go and view. I think it will definitely add value to who you are.
Stuart Webb [00:06:40]:
That's the first time anybody's mentioned Netflix on it's. Not rocket science. Five questions of coffee. So well done to you, Sonny, for bringing us something new on that one, Sonny. But in terms of other things, there must be one other question that you're thinking at the moment I should be asking you that I haven't. So what's the question and please answer it for us.
Sonny Kurmi [00:06:58]:
What's the question? And please answer it for us. I'd probably say, how did I get into what I did today? And why do I do what I do? It's probably the question that I think you haven't asked me, but I think it could be of value. So the first part of me answering my own question here is how did I get into the industry? Or how did I get into what I do today? The simple answer is family. My family background is finance. I actually started in the financial services industry at the age of 16.
Stuart Webb [00:07:39]:
Wow.
Sonny Kurmi [00:07:40]:
I actually do my work experience at the age of 15.
Stuart Webb [00:07:43]:
And you're only 21 now, of course.
Sonny Kurmi [00:07:46]:
You're so kind, but no. Yeah, no. I did my work experience at the age of 15 at Lloyd's TSB in halfship. And I got on quite well with the local regional director. And he offered me a job near enough, the day I turned 16. Day after, shall I say. And that's exactly what I did. I worked for Louis CSB, my first ever job, at the age of 16, the day after my 16th birth, should I say. And that's how I got into the industry. I studied. I did account and finance at university. Hated the accountancy side, but loved the finance side, which is great. I've ended up in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, my first job after university. And again, that was doing financial advice. And that's how I got into what I do today in terms of the job that I do today. So I was quite lucky. At the age of 20, I knew what I didn't want to do. I e accountancy and go down that route. And I did know what I did want to do for a lifetime and was to become a financial advisor. Why do I do it? I'm able to change people's lives. And that feeling so that feeling of being able to assist people either move one step closer to their goals or achieve their future goals, that feeling is just I don't think there's no words that can explain that. It's like magic. That's the way I can explain it. I can do magic in some senses. I can help people by achieving their goals or move one step closer, giving them information that's simple and easy to understand and changing their lives. But that's quite cool.
Stuart Webb [00:09:31]:
I like that. I like that a lot. Sonny, where can people find you to find out more information? And there must be a LinkedIn profile or something that people can follow your activities. And actually, I've got to admit, I love following your activities. You have a great daily three things I did doing today or did yesterday that you post every day, which I think is just a great thing to follow. So where can people find you?
Sonny Kurmi [00:09:55]:
Yeah, like you said, I am on social media. i.e. LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. I have a website. I'm on Google. My business google? Yeah. I mean, there's a number of different ways that people could find me, but I'd say, yeah, LinkedIn website, google either my company name or my name and I should pop up.
Stuart Webb [00:10:20]:
So that's Sonny. Sonny Kurmi Sonny. Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. I'm just going to pop up now. Look, if you would like to hear about more of what we're sort of doing here on It's Not Rocket Science Five Questions. Have a copy, get onto the newsletter. It's as https link the complete approach Co UK newsletter. Follow everything we do. We'll have more great guests like Sonny in a week or so time. Sonny, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Really appreciate it. Lovely.
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Who is Bri?
Bri Smith is a financial coach who helps parents manage their finances. She specializes in helping people understand their finances and set financial goals. Many parents come to her with the misconception that they have bad credit, but Bri teaches them that the real issue is not knowing how to manage their money. She helps her clients make a plan for their finances and teaches them how to achieve their financial goals. Bri believes that wishful thinking doesn't make anything happen, and with the right plan, anyone can achieve financial success.
Key Takeaways
[00:01:43] "Social Media's Get Rich Quick Scheme Pitfalls"
[00:06:01] "Unleashing Financial Success with Cash Flow Quadrants"
[00:09:11] "Subscribe to our newsletter for exclusive content!"
Valuable Free Resource or Action
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
https://youtube.com/live/d6G5lnviv2s
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletter
Find out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguest
Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
Help us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!
Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:
If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Warren Buffett, budgeting, saving, credit management, financial planning, goal setting, get-rich-quick schemes, investing, education, personal finance, Robert Kayosaki, Cash Flow Quadrants, financial success, client consultation, one-on-one program, group setting, financial breakthrough calls, budget creation, money management, generational wealth, newsletter subscription, upcoming guests, podcast rating.
SPEAKERS
Bri Smith, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:18]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's not Rocket science. Five questions have got me. I've got a slight hoarse voice today, so I'm sucking on lemon and honey water. Brie, I know you've got a lipton tea in front of you, so we're both not quite coffeeed up, but we're both ready to talk to you today about this five questions of a coffee. Brie is a wealth strategist who works with parents to really build generational wealth in their families. That's a brilliant thing to talk about. BRI. Welcome to it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee.
Bri Smith [00:00:51]:
Thank you for having me. I love being here.
Stuart Webb [00:00:54]:
Thank you. So let's start with the sort of people you help to work with. What are the problems they have? What is it that you're trying to help them to overcome?
Bri Smith [00:01:04]:
So, a lot of parents that come to me, their main problem is that they think that they have bad credit, so that's usually what they see as their main issue. But usually it's just that they don't know how to manage their money. They don't know where their money is going, they have no plan for the future. So they have a lot of goals and they feel like they're unachievable because they stay in the same place year after year because they're getting no closer there. Just because they don't have a plan to get there. And wishful thinking doesn't make anything happen.
Stuart Webb [00:01:33]:
Yeah, I know that feeling. So what are the things they've tried to do to overcome these issues on their own without sort of resorting to help that you can give them?
Bri Smith [00:01:43]:
I think a lot of them try and find stuff on Instagram or Facebook. They get into, like this forex trading or crypto trading or whatever it is, that they think is this get rich quick scheme that's going to give them $10,000 tomorrow. Right? And so they try these things out and then they find out that, yeah, maybe initially you get $500 so that then they can steal 5000 from you. But then they find out that they're really upset because they were getting into something that they don't even understand. And when it comes to investing, you're just gambling if you don't understand what you're getting into. Gambling are two different things.
Stuart Webb [00:02:26]:
The thing that worries me so much about these get rich quick schemes is about the gold rush down in San Francisco. Back in the day, the people that got rich were the people that sold the shovels and not the people that were digging for the gold. It is easy to see the people that you're working with getting rich, but somehow it never happens to you, does it?
Bri Smith [00:02:47]:
Exactly, and I love that analogy because that's exactly what is happening. The people that are selling the shovels, the people that are selling the methods, so to speak, are the ones that are getting rich from it. And it also just messes up the whole financial space because it's unregulated. So a lot of people are just really getting scammed and don't know who to trust anymore.
Stuart Webb [00:03:09]:
Love it. Brilliant. I'm glad you're there trying to help them through it. Tell me, is there a valuable piece of free advice or something valuable? And I think there is something because we talked about it before. Something valuable you can do to help people to sort of overcome this. And I think this might have something to do with it.
Bri Smith [00:03:27]:
So, yes, people can book a free financial breakthrough call with me, and basically what I go over there is like, what are your goals? What is it that you're really trying to achieve? And can we create a custom plan for you to reach that? So instead of me trying to sell different financial products and say, this is what's going to fix your problem, I really like to get into the root of it with my clients and fix their poor money habits and also teach them about money because they never learned about it at school or at home. And they just need a plan to get to where they want to go.
Stuart Webb [00:04:00]:
Now, it sounds like a lot to cover in one call. So is that a long call? Is that a short call? Do you try and cover everything or do you just try and work with people with what you can do to help them at that point?
Bri Smith [00:04:10]:
So during that call, we're really just getting very clear on what their goals are. So what are your goals and what is your current situation? So basically, where are you? Where do you want to go? And can I give you a plan that will help you get there? This is what I have to offer to help you get there. And do you think that's a good fit for working with me? Because working with me is going to be much longer. I have an eight week course, and then I have three month program where people work with me one on one if they don't like the group setting.
Stuart Webb [00:04:42]:
Wow, okay, good. All right, thank you for that explanation. So, Brie, there must be a book or a course or something which brought you to this position in your life where you started to understand finances. What was that book or course or whatever that you really sort of embraced in order to get to the stage where you took this on for yourself.
Bri Smith [00:05:02]:
So there was not a book or course. That was the problem. I'm a CPA, so I'm a certified public accountant. I went to school. I double majored in accounting and finance, concentrated on personal financial planning. That gave me a lot of my base. But then there was also so much more that school didn't teach me. So I listened to a ton, like hundreds of hours of different podcasts from the NPR station or just wherever I can get information. I've read a ton of different books. So it wasn't like one that was like, oh my God, this is the best one ever. It really answered all my questions. It was really a bunch of them that kind of helped me piece together the different parts that I needed for my financial plan to work.
Stuart Webb [00:05:45]:
Is there something you can recommend that people I mean, other than working with you, Tara? Is there something out there that you think would be useful for people to start to at least understand, so when they come to you and talk to you, they've got the basic questions out of the way so that they can actually sort of have a conversation.
Bri Smith [00:06:01]:
They don't have to start with anything. But I would recommend Rich dad, poor dad by Robert Kayosaki. Everyone reads that. It's a great book. But also the one that slept on is Cash Flow Quadrants by Robert Kayosaki. So when I read that one, it was recommended to me by a client. I was doing their taxes, and in 2020, they made one hundred K. And then in 2021, when I was doing their tax return, they had made over $500,000. And I said, how did you go from being a school teacher making like $50,000, combined with your husband making $100,000, to you both now bringing in over a half a million dollars a year? That's a big jump. And she said that the big difference. For her. What changed her life was cash flow. Quadrants by Robert Kayasaki. She also had a very wealthy dad and brother who she's investing with and things like that. So not to say that we can all go from just five X our money in one year like that. She did have help, but nonetheless, it's still possible. If one person can do it, we all can do it.
Stuart Webb [00:07:08]:
Brilliant. I love the story. I love the story. So, look, we've had a couple of couple of minutes now where we've just talked about these sort of things, but there must be one question you're thinking that I haven't yet asked you, which you would like me to have asked. So what's the question that I should have asked you that I haven't? And please, once you've asked the question, would you please give us the answer?
Bri Smith [00:07:32]:
So the main thing is, what is the biggest thing that's holding people back from reaching their financial goals? And I will say that is just like starting with a budget. That is one thing that anyone can start. That is the one thing that I want everyone to take away, whether you work with me or not. Please do a budget so that you understand your money, you know where it's going, and you can start telling it where to go. Because if you don't tell it where to, it will find places to go for you. And that is just not ideal.
Stuart Webb [00:08:00]:
Yeah, I think it was. I can't remember if it was Warren Buffett that said you should spend what you've got left after you've saved, not the other way around. So, simple budget that enables you to work out exactly, make sure that you put this amount about it, money about aside and saved it, and then once you put that aside, that's the rest you've got to live on and manage within that budget is the way to sort of get richer and richer every year. Warren Buffett seems to have done okay.
Bri Smith [00:08:29]:
I love Warren Buffett. I have read his autobiography or his biography and he has a lot of great wisdom to give to everyone.
Stuart Webb [00:08:38]:
Yeah, well, he still lives in the same house that he's lived in for a long time. So it's another great story. To make yourself better, more wealthy, is not spend your money on large, expensive houses, isn't it?
Bri Smith [00:08:54]:
Well, I don't know. I'm going to get a large, expensive house and he could get a lot of large, expensive houses if he wants to, but I think it's just his preference. But, yeah, I'm going to get a large, expensive house. I don't know about Warren, but I know about BRI.
Stuart Webb [00:09:11]:
Been great chatting to you for a few minutes. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us talking about this stuff. You have a good day. And I would really encourage anybody who's currently not listening and subscribing to this, would you join our newsletter. That way you get onto the mailing list which tells you about when we have great people like Brie coming up and giving you advice. And that is if you go to https link the completeapproach Co UK that's link thecompletroach Co UK newsletter that gets you onto the newsletter. You can get to know about people like Brie. And you'll hear Brie on the podcast in a couple of weeks time when it's published on Apple podcasts. Please go and like and subscribe there and give us a nice rating as well. Brie, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Look forward to seeing more of the stuff you're doing online and more of the stuff you're doing to help people increase that generational wealth.
Bri Smith [00:10:10]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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Who is Ann?
Ann Hobbs is an experienced writer who has mastered the art of writing books that speak directly to her reader's needs. Before putting pen to paper, she takes the time to understand her audience's problems and comes up with solutions that will make their lives easier. This strategy ensures that her writing is structured to address specific issues and provides a clear path to resolution. Ann's books are easy to follow, engaging, and packed with practical advice that is delivered in an enjoyable and relatable way. If you're seeking a guide that will help you transform your life, Ann Hobbs is the author you should seek out.
Key Takeaways
[00:01:40] Writer has good language skills, but lacks book structuring abilities.
[00:02:22] Know your audience when writing a book.
[00:03:44] Identifying the reader is crucial in successful writing.
[00:04:27] Before starting to write a manuscript, identify the reader, their problems, and how to solve them to make writing easier and help you structure the book.
[00:06:46] Publishing a book has a powerful impact on selling business programs.
[00:07:44] Writing a book takes effort, money, and help; many people want to write a book but don't follow through, admiring those who do.
[00:08:31] Author shares three steps to master ghostwriting, emphasizes importance of understanding reader and their problems in writing process. Also mentions writing a book in five weeks while ill.
[00:09:37] Editor cuts 30,000 words from a manuscript with multiple target readers, causing reluctance due to the author's effort.
[00:10:41] Writing is not just about grammar, it's about having a voice.
[00:11:55] Motivation comes from helping others and changing lives through sharing information in a book.
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://mailchi.mp/f31a5f07b6af/3-steps-to-master-your-writing-booklet
A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :
https://www.youtube.com/live/nIBMoc1LV44?feature=share
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Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
audience, problems, desire to help, effort, writing a book, power of publishing, credibility, authority, program, motivation, scare, life-changing, valuable information, save time, social media, growth programs, proposal, knowing the reader, problem-solving, manuscript, English language skills, voice, podcast, advice, simple steps, target audience, persona, manuscript editor, cutting words, mastering writing, ghost writer, understanding reader's needs.
SPEAKERS
Ann Hobbs, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It Not Rocket Science five Questions Over Coffee. I have my coffee mug in front of me. I'm here with Anne from Forward Thinking Publishing. I think Ann is going to give us some great insights into how we as business owners can go about letting people know about our experiences, our expertise by publishing. So, Anne, welcome to it's not coffee. Five it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee.
Ann Hobbs [00:00:52]:
Yeah, thank you for having me. I've got my coffee mug, too.
Stuart Webb [00:00:55]:
Excellent. Tell me about the sort of people that you help with your business. What is it you're helping them to do?
Ann Hobbs [00:01:04]:
So, mainly I work with business owners that really want to kind of promote their business by writing a book, and that has to be done in a specific way. So one of the problems that they know what they do and they're expert at what they do, they just don't know how to write a book. So that's where I come in.
Stuart Webb [00:01:26]:
And tell me, what sort of things do they find themselves doing to try and get out of getting things written down that don't help them? What is it you help them to sort of straighten out in their heads?
Ann Hobbs [00:01:40]:
Yeah, I think they know how to write. It's not a question of the writing. As an editor, I never correct the language or the writing. That's always quite perfect. It's how they kind of structure the book. They just don't know how to write a book. And that's a lot different to I don't know how to write, because they obviously do. They just don't know how to write it in a book and how to get it into kind of a book.
Stuart Webb [00:02:12]:
And what do you see as some of the main problems with people actually therefore writing a book? What are some of the things that you see that go wrong?
Ann Hobbs [00:02:22]:
Yeah, so one of the main issues that I see when I have a manuscript is that people don't think about who the reader is. Then they try to solve so much of their expertise in one book, they're not speaking to anybody. Like, kind of marketing. If you're not speaking to anybody, you can't market it. And this is the same kind of with the book I know within two sentences of a manuscript who the reader is that I know they don't know who they are.
Stuart Webb [00:02:59]:
Yes.
Ann Hobbs [00:03:00]:
Amazing.
Stuart Webb [00:03:02]:
I know. I was taught many years ago when it comes to starting any piece of writing, in order to really get it clear in my head exactly who it was that I was writing to, that I had to sort of get a picture of them, give them a name, and then start any writing with Dear Ann or Dear Fiona. So that whenever I was writing it, I was writing it very specifically to a person, even if that person was a fictitious person or an Avatar or a persona, whatever. But by having that clear picture and writing Dear so and so at the beginning of my writing, that enabled me to be absolutely clear about writing something very specific to a specific person.
Ann Hobbs [00:03:44]:
Yeah. And people don't want to do it because they don't want to unleash. They think by speaking to one person, they're only speaking to one person. But I can write a book in four weeks because I know the subject, I know who the reader is. And it's very simple, kind of with the writing. So, yeah, the number one problem that I see is that they don't know who the reader is.
Stuart Webb [00:04:07]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Well, I know you've got some valuable free advice to give to people who have got that sort of problem. And I've got the link on the screen at the moment. Do you want to talk us through what is on that particular booklet that you've got? The Three Steps to Master Your Writing Booklet.
Ann Hobbs [00:04:27]:
Yes. So it takes you through kind of and know your reader, what is their problem and how you're going to solve it. So these are the questions that before you stuart a manuscript, you should be looking at before you even start kind of the writing process, Ann. Think about who they are, what their problems are, how you're going to solve it, which will make the writing so much easier in a couple of weeks when your know these questions. So that will really help you to figure out how you're going to get the book all structured. So that will tell you how to do it all from the structure.
Stuart Webb [00:05:10]:
Do you know something, Ann? It is the same story for so many things, isn't it? I was only talking to somebody on one of my growth programs yesterday, and they're trying to pull the growth lever at the moment of getting their proposals accepted. We were talking about the key things to put into a proposal, Ann. The three key things that I said that they had to do was know exactly who the person was that was going to be going to be reading the proposal. What was their problem that they had and what was the solution that they were looking for, how you were going to provide that solution. It's really the key to business, isn't it? Know the problem you solve and demonstrate that you can actually understand that problem and demonstrate that you've got the solution to it. It is the key to everything.
Ann Hobbs [00:06:02]:
Yeah, it is the key to everything. But when you write a book, people seem to forget that. But if you get it all right at the beginning, then your marketing becomes very clear. Then you can sell that book. So that's what we do. We produce a great looking book, but we also help your with the marketing by getting it set up in the correct way.
Stuart Webb [00:06:31]:
Great. Brilliant. Was there a particular course or program that brought you into publish that really sort of helped you to understand exactly how you could do this?
Ann Hobbs [00:06:46]:
Not really. I understood the power of a book when I published one because kind of like all my clients, they want to kind of get their advice out there to help people, which I did. But then when I went to networking events, I didn't understand the power of it. Selling became very easy for me. I sold like a 2000 pound program in like ten minutes with my book. They didn't even want to read the book, which was I was really upset they didn't want to pay ten pounds for my book, but they paid two grand for a program. So it's the power that that book gives you as a business owner that you don't realize until you've published one.
Stuart Webb [00:07:32]:
It's the credibility builder, isn't it? It's the thing which actually really builds your credibility to have a book or something like that behind you, which allows you to sort of say, I really am an expert. I know. Because I've written a book about it.
Ann Hobbs [00:07:44]:
Yeah, because it takes effort, it takes kind of your money as well. So people really see that. But there's a lot of people that want to write a book, but they just don't. So they really admire those people that have taken the time, worked it out, got the help they've needed, and they've got kind of something to how for it, which not a lot of people will want to do well, they want to do, but they don't do.
Stuart Webb [00:08:14]:
You mentioned at the end it's possible you said you can write a book in 30 days, which I know is possible because I've done something similar. Do you have techniques, tips that you give people on how to sort of be able to crank out a book in such a short space of time?
Ann Hobbs [00:08:31]:
Yeah. It's all in my three steps to master. And I did it because I was a ghost writer for someone which I knew the subject, but I didn't know all of the subjects and so I had to put all of those like who is the reader? What is the problem? What am I going to solve? I had to do all of that and I wrote that in actually five weeks because I got ill after four weeks. But I mean, I did that in five weeks. But it's going back to those basics. Who is the reader? What's their problem? So I have to put all that into practice to get that book all written brilliant.
Stuart Webb [00:09:11]:
I love it.
Ann Hobbs [00:09:12]:
Quite eye opening because I stood there because when I first got the proposal, I like, how am I going to write this? So I have all the same questions all my clients have and I just thought, no, back to the reader.
Stuart Webb [00:09:28]:
Absolutely love it. I think you're absolutely right. It is so critical we get that focus on the person that you are speaking to isn't it?
Ann Hobbs [00:09:37]:
Yeah and especially when I see a manuscript I had one and it was 90,000 words. I asked him who the reader was and it was like five different people so I'm like that's not going to sell anyway. But then I had to cut out the words. I had to cut out like 30,000 words. And it pains me because it took him so much time to write these words, but they just didn't. Once you worked out who the reader is that reader was they didn't actually but I had to take out so many words, they didn't kind of belong there anymore. So that what pains me is that I'm having to cut a lot of words out once your realize who the reader is.
Stuart Webb [00:10:20]:
Yeah, I love it. We're coming towards the end of our interview and I've only got sort of the one question left for you really which is there must be one question that I haven't asked which you would quite like me to have asked at this stage. What would you have liked me to have asked you? Which I haven't so far.
Ann Hobbs [00:10:41]:
I think a lot of the time people say can I write it? Am I really good at English? Am I good at this? I wasn't really good at school. So these are the blocks people come to me with. And I say, it isn't about where the comma is or if you've kind of used the Capital Letter. It's about having a voice. And if your voice shines through that kind of your manuscript, then that's where the power is. And no one's going to be upset if the comma is in the wrong place. But if your voice doesn't shine through, I think that is really important. Other than the English language.
Stuart Webb [00:11:25]:
I think it comes back to that thing that you started with, isn't it? It's knowing who you're trying to reach. If your know who you're trying to reach, if you know what their problem is and you really want to help, then all you have to do then is put the effort behind that. And then a book comes from that because you are reaching out to help somebody, even if that is with money intention. But because you're looking at ways of helping them, it becomes easier to put that across, doesn't it?
Ann Hobbs [00:11:55]:
Yeah and it helps you with the motivation, it always does. If I'm thinking about that one person ann, I'm like I've got the information that they need, if I don't write it, then I'm not doing them any favors. So that always kind of motivates me into getting it out there because it is scary. It is scary putting your stuff out in a book and I understand that but I'm looking about that person if I can change someone's lives, even if you know how to do social media and you tell them it's going to save them so much time so why not get it in a book.
Stuart Webb [00:12:36]:
Yeah, brilliant. I love it. I love it and that's great. I love what you've been telling us. I love what you're speaking about. I think it's brilliant. Everybody, if you're watching this and thinking, I'd love to know about who's coming on so I can get on and ask questions of these people and really catch up with some of the great advice you're getting, go to this link, which is https link thecompleetaproach co UK that's link thecompleetaproachnewsletter that gets you onto our newsletter list. You will get an email every week which lets you know about who's coming onto the podcast, what great advice they're going to be giving you so that you can get your questions into the people that you need to speak to. Really would encourage you to do that. And I'd love to thank Ann this day for coming and spending just a few minutes with us about how we can go about very easily creating a book. And it's so simple, with just three simple steps. Anne, thank you for that advice.
Ann Hobbs [00:13:36]:
Thank you for having me, Ann. Stewart.
Stuart Webb [00:13:38]:
That's absolutely no problem at all. Speak to you again soon.
Ann Hobbs [00:13:41]:
Okay, bye.
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Who is Suzanne?
Suzanne Jabour is a grief integration specialist who helps organizations create supportive cultures around emotions, particularly grief. She believes that grief is not something we can ignore or suppress, but something that needs to be integrated into our lives. Suzanne works with companies to address their culture around emotion and protocols for supporting grieving employees. She provides a menu of support options to choose from and encourages conversations about grief. By doing so, she helps create a culture of support and wholeness in the workplace, which not only benefits grieving employees but also improves customer service. Suzanne's ultimate goal is to help individuals integrate their grief, so it becomes a part of them and their lives moving forward.
Key Takeaways
Addressing Grief in the Workplace: "We want to integrate our grief. It becomes a part of us and a part of our life as we carry forward...None of that really works with grief...One to three days is nowhere near as long as it takes. It doesn't even take that year that sometimes we're given grace through. It takes much longer than that for many of us, especially if you've had a really catastrophic loss." - This quote emphasizes the importance of understanding that grief cannot be compartmentalized and ignored, and that it takes much longer than a few days or even a year to process. It also highlights the need for workplaces to have protocols in place to support employees going through grief, as well as a culture that embraces emotions and offers support without the burden falling solely on the grieving person to ask for help.
— Suzanne Jabour [00:02:07 → 00:08:46]
Grieving in the Workplace: "We need some scaffolding to be able to be successful at work."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:09:27 → 00:11:21]
Supporting Your Team Through Grief: "We're all experiencing grief and let's brainstorm. Let's talk about some of the ways we could support each other when we're having those difficult moments or those difficult days."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:11:21 → 00:12:23]
Supporting Grieving Employees: "I'm all about it, own it. Go to them and say, oh my gosh, I listened to this podcast and I realized I totally didn't support you the way you needed. What can we do now? What support do you need now? Right? There's always time to say, oh my gosh, I didn't know any better."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:13:46 → 00:15:25]
Grief at Work: "The biggest thing for business owners, I think, that impacts people at work, is the brain fog."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:17:02 → 00:18:29]
Grief Resources: "One of the people's work that helped me really get through those early, early days is Megan Devine, and her book is It's Okay That You're Not okay."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:19:00 → 00:21:07]
The Importance of Grief in the Workplace: "So it matters because grief gives us an in to talk about some really complicated things that are actually really important for all of us."
— Suzanne Jabour [00:21:55 → 00:24:19]
Valuable Free Resource or Action
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6013019a02a2d7779026a55e/t/64092e6c2df4700a16d5dadd/1678323312188/e+book+final%3F.pdf
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/newsletter
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Subscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcast
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If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://scientificvaluebuildingmachine.online
It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Transcript
Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
grief, Grief at Work, ebook, brain fog, practical support, program, business owners, Suzanne Jabor, grief education, lack of support, long-term support, consult, newsletter, processing grief, vulnerability, emotions at work, team members, loyalty, bereavement leave policies, culture, menu of support options, disengaged employees, anticipatory grieving, team-building, business leaders, follow-up, cycles, returning to normality, nonfiction comprehension, Facebook, Instagram, Megan Devine, David Kessler, post traumatic growth, meaning in grief.
SPEAKERS
Suzanne Jabour, Stuart Webb
Stuart Webb [00:00:22]:
Hi, and welcome back to It's Not Rocket Science five Questions Over Coffee. I'm really delighted to be welcoming Suzanne Jabor today from a lived experience. Now, Suzanne is somebody who's passionate about helping people to understand and overcome grief, and she's a grief education. I think it's going to be a really fascinating discussion because it's something that we so rarely deal with, and as business owners, it is the thing that we need to deal with, because if it's not somebody within our organization, it could well be us that's having to go through something like this. And we just often want to put this away in a shed and hope that it just goes away. And that's not really the right way of dealing with some of these feelings. It really doesn't help the organization. It doesn't help you. So I think it's going to be a really fascinating discussion that Suzanne really want to welcome you to it's Not Rocket Science five Questions of Copy. And thank you for spending the time with us.
Suzanne Jabour [00:01:17]:
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate, especially people whose work is focused on business, taking the time to talk about this topic because it's so important, it has such a huge impact.
Stuart Webb [00:01:27]:
Yeah. Well, I will tell you that when my father died, it was a problem for my business for a short while until I eventually learned to overcome it. So I know how it can affect people who are trying to run businesses, who are also trying to, as I said, compartmentalize this thing and just ignore it and hope it just goes away, which is just if that's happening within your organization, it's happening with one of your employees. It's the wrong way of dealing with it. So, Suzanne, you've seen this. You've helped people talk to us about the sort of things that people are doing and how you're trying to help them, to educate them on their grief and the way to deal with it.
Suzanne Jabour [00:02:07]:
Yeah. So the thing that's the most important for me is exactly what you're talking about. This kind of whole idea we have that we can put grief in a box, we can just kind of ignore it, we can pretend it's not there and it will eventually go away, is unfortunately not how it works. Really the only way to get to I talk about integration being the goal. We want to integrate our grief. It becomes a part of us and a part of our life as we carry forward, which is, I'm sure, what you've done with your dad, right? You haven't left him behind. You haven't moved on or gotten through anything. You've learned how to live with the loss, to carry that grief with you and carry him with you. And what happens at work often is work many places is a place where we're not encouraged, really, to have emotions anyway. Employers want us to kind of show up and get the job done and figure out what the problem is, make a plan, solve the problem, move forward. None of that really works with grief. And so if that's your office culture, it can be really challenging for grievers. And if your office culture is more accepting of emotions than that, even then the really big emotions that happen in grief, which are mostly, to be honest, the ones on that negative or bad side of the list if you think about that weird paradigm we have of positive and good emotions and negative and bad emotions? The ones that we've been taught from our childhoods for most of us to ignore and not express and tamp down are the ones that are coming at you in a tsunami when you're in early, especially those early days and those acute days of grief. And for most places, certainly in North America, and I'd love to hear about what it's like for you in the UK. There's kind of a standard one to three days off, and then you're expected to just show up and be your normal self and get your job done. And one to three days is nowhere near as long as it takes. It doesn't even take that year that sometimes we're given grace through. It takes much longer than that for many of us, especially if you've had a really catastrophic loss. And so that sort of sense that you should be able to show up and do your job really does a disservice to everyone because you're then as the griever, feeling all these expectations that you can't meet, which is then more grief and loss, right? Because you're already mourning the person you lost. And then if it's someone who the loss of them changed your identity, which is what happened to me, you're mourning yourself, your loss of yourself, and now you're mourning that you don't have these capacities at work that you used to have, but you're supposed like, it just gets so complicated. So if instead we can have talked about it ahead of time, we can have protocols, we can have developed the skills and mindsets that allow us to at least witness all of those emotions that are coming up and at least have an open forum where people could talk about them, maybe a quiet place where they could go when they feel overwhelmed. Preferably not the bathroom, right? There's many of us that have cried massive tears in a bathroom stall. It's not all that dignified, right, somewhere quiet to go when you're an overwhelmed. That's not the bathroom. I love to think about it as like a menu of things you could choose from that you might need support with, and we can talk about details of that if that's interesting. But what I do with companies is just come in and look at what the culture is around emotion because that's where we need to start. And I know that's scary and I know we don't really want to, but it makes us better humans. It makes us better business leaders. It makes us better employers and customer service providers. And then once we've got to that point where we can maybe have a conversation about grief without feeling like we're terrified and we want to turn and run away, then we can look at what are the practical things we can do. A lot of companies come to me because they have someone who's important to their team who's had a significant loss and they realize they want to do something more than like the referral to the Employee assistance program, right, that referral to sort of the three free counseling sessions. They know that's not going to be enough, but they don't know what else to do. So that's where I can step in and really go, okay, great, let's look at your culture. Let's look at this. If it's based on an individual, let's start there and then from there we can make some really robust protocols that people know they can hook into. So the other thing that happens that's really hard for grievers is if there's no conversation that's ever been had in your workplace, there's no protocols in place. You're having to go in the hardest moments of your life to try and advocate for what you need. And that's really a big burden for people. So they tend to not do it because they're in full on survival mode. They can't also go and say they can't even necessarily identify what's happening to them. So they can't go and say, well, I'm really having significant brain fog and I'm struggling with keeping track of my calendar. Could we set up a shared calendar? Like they can't even articulate any of that because they're in survival mode. But if you as the boss, the supervisor, the business owner could say, hey, I know you're grieving. Here's our grief protocol. What of those things would really help you this week? Let's put those into place. And it's an offer that's made as opposed to someone coming to have to ask. That's really powerful. And the ripple of that is that it shows all your other employees who aren't grieving that you care about them, that their whole self is welcome at the office. And if they're struggling with a loss, big or small or just struggling with something else, they know there's an ability to come and get support. So it creates that whole culture of support and wholeness that I really think is a big part of that sort of quiet quitting epidemic and people showing up and just being barely engaged. If people feel seen and heard, then we also want to show up in a really robust way as best as our capacities are that day. And we know the vast majority of people are doing the best they can in any given day with the skills and capacities they have. So if we're working from that assumption, then we can really make real shifts around how we support both our staff and we have customers who are grieving too. So if you have customer facing folks, if that's your business, even if it's business to business, the way that you interact with people who have experienced a loss I just was talking with a friend the other day who'd experienced a significant loss. And honestly, we're all sharing notes. So I know which companies I will not go to because they didn't have capacity to help him when he needed it, and I know which ones I will. So if you think that grief is not impacting your business, I'm here to tell you you are wrong. Because especially right now, coming out of the last three years, we've all experienced we all have grief for something. Whether we've lost people or multiple people or all the other things we lost, we all have it. So we need to be talking about it.
Stuart Webb [00:08:46]:
Suzanne, it's really interesting, and it's exciting to hear you say, I guess the question that follows on from that we could turn this into 200 questions of a coffee. We're not going to. I could probably but we were so you mentioned it at the end there. What are the things that people are doing wrong? Because you've already sort of said there are things that people are trying to do to sort of overcome this. And it's often a business owner sort of doing something and you think that they have just missed the point, or they've just misunderstood, or they're trying valiantly to do something, but it's misguided. What are some of the things you've seen that have sort of made you stop and go, no, I really think you need to stop and turn around and go somewhere else?
Suzanne Jabour [00:09:27]:
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest one that I hear from grievers is that there's just no support at all. So they get the sort of I'm sorry, they might get sent flowers, maybe not. They might get a card, maybe not. All of those things are great, and we need support. Beyond that, we need practical support. We need some scaffolding to be able to be successful at work. So that's the biggest one, right? Is that the same fear that we feel in our real lives when we're faced with someone who's grieving and we don't know what to do, we don't know what to say, we don't know how to respond? That happens in the workplace. So that's one end of the scale. One end of the scale is they get no support at all. That's a big problem. The other end of the scale is they get support, but it's not what they need. So it's not kind of griever centered. It's happened without a conversation. Perhaps someone has said, oh, you must be overwhelmed, so let's take this task from you. Well, if you're taking the task that they really like, then now they're left with, not the things that they really enjoy at work or the companies that are trying that want to help and want to give support that offer, and they take things away, or they provide scaffolding. There's no follow up plan put in place. So I actually was talking with one woman who ended up quitting her job and going somewhere else because she had lost a child, so she'd lost a son. And they provided all kinds of support, really robust support at the beginning, but no follow up plan to then take that scaffolding down so she could step back into the fullness of her role. So she ended up leaving because she became that woman who'd lost a child who everyone had to help, and she didn't want that to be her identity either. Right. So it's kind of like, from both ends of the spectrum, we kind of go wrong. And really the key, key thing, if you can hear anything, is do it all in consultation with the griever. Yeah.
Stuart Webb [00:11:21]:
Brilliant.
Suzanne Jabour [00:11:21]:
And understand that they may not have the capacity, especially in those really acute early days, to articulate or even comprehend what they need. So that's why if you've talked about it ahead of time, I mean, think about what a powerful team building exercise that would be if you had a team meeting where the conversation was, we're all experiencing grief and let's brainstorm. Let's talk about some of the ways we could support each other when we're having those difficult moments or those difficult days. And if you don't have the skills to do that, then you can bring in someone like me who can easily facilitate that conversation and just get the ball rolling. Right. Because then we're sending all kinds of messages. Like, it's also, as we know, as business leaders, right. It's not just about what you say. It's about the messages you're sending. It's about that idea that we value your whole person and your whole experience. Whatever's going on for you is, okay, you're a valued part of this business, and we need you, and we need you at the best of your capacity, whatever that is. Right. So there's kind of, you know, there's pitfalls both ends of the scale.
Stuart Webb [00:12:23]:
Yeah. You said something really valuable there that I think which is doing these things in advance, isn't it? Because doing it too late and having that conversation before I think it's absolutely brilliant that you stress that, because I think that is one of the things that I think, once again, I don't want to get into too. Much personal stuff. But there was a situation with me where somebody who was in the process of they had a terminal condition and they were starting the grieving process before the grieving before the person has left. And essentially, I sort of eventually realized this person was grieving the healthy situation. They were sort of anticipating and sitting, going, well, the healthy what I had before has gone and everything was rosy. Now I know it's not going to be rosy. And they were grieving that, and then there was going to be a second grief after the death. And so it was one of those, this is going to be a long term thing. And the follow up has to be very critical because they will go through several cycles of feeling good and feeling bad and things will change and then it becomes, well, how much longer do we do this and what do we do in order to sort of return to normality? Which is the critical step on that path, isn't it?
Suzanne Jabour [00:13:46]:
Yeah, absolutely. And that can take a really long time. Like for me, I came to this work after the death of my son, which now is two and a half years ago, which is not all that long in the grand scheme of things, but in our sense of how grief works. I should be back to normal, right? I should be totally fine. Well, of course that's not the case. I still have capacities that I go, wait, I used to be able to do that and I can't. So that's okay. I can do lots of other things, but that sort of sense of and in a situation you describe where it's complicated, right? You're having to support someone through anticipatory grief, and then they're going to have the grief when the person finally dies. That person is going to need support for a long time. And you don't want to lose them, right. They're a valued part of your team. So you want to do what you can. And I just want to riff off to something. You were saying that there's a point where it's kind of too late. I don't actually think that's true. I think you can do a lot of really good mitigating of what you might not have done brilliantly, because we all are doing the best we can as we learn new things. So if you're coming out of this conversation today of listening to us and thinking, oh my gosh, I totally blew it with my person who lost someone fairly recently, I'm all about it, own it. Go to them and say, oh my gosh, I listened to this podcast and I realized I totally didn't support you the way you needed. What can we do now? What support do you need now? Right? There's always time to say, oh my gosh, I didn't know any better. Now I have this inkling I might not have stepped up the way I would have wanted to. Where do we go from here? Right? And that's that vulnerability piece, that honesty piece about we don't know what we don't know, until someone says, hey, you don't know that. And then we need to recover. And that's okay.
Stuart Webb [00:15:25]:
I absolutely love that, Suzanne. Thank you. I've just put a message up on the screen for people to see if the questions and I'm just going to throw this open. I hope you don't mind, Suzanne, but even after this recording is finished, if they've got questions, they can easily post them to you by contacting you on LinkedIn, where you're obviously tagged on this particular episode. Or if they need me to contact me, I will then pass them on to Suzanne so that you can actually get those questions answered. So please don't suffer in silence, as it were. Ask the questions. And I love the advice you've just given Suzanne, which is, it's never too late to just turn around and own that situation.
Suzanne Jabour [00:16:04]:
Absolutely.
Stuart Webb [00:16:06]:
Now, I'm just going to hide that question for a minute. I'm hoping that you've got some valuable free resources that you can talk to us about. It's on your website, which is on screen now, which is a lived experience. So that's a lived experience. And I hope I've spelled that right. It's difficult for me to be absolutely sure.
Suzanne Jabour [00:16:26]:
I've got I know I realized I picked a really complicated to spell thing. It's all those letters that you don't usually type. I'm sorry.
Stuart Webb [00:16:36]:
It's easy to say, but difficult to get right when you're typing. What have you got on there that could help us sort of understand a little bit better some of the things that we could be doing as business owners, business small business owners and people who are working together with clients and customers and also within organizations so that we can be better grief supporters.
Suzanne Jabour [00:17:02]:
Yeah. So the most important thing that your listeners will find there is a very short, I promise. It's about six pages, a little quick ebook, and it's called Grief at Work. So you just look for the Grief at Work ebook. It's in the top banner. Click there. It's about six pages of really distilled a starting place. Right. So I talk a lot there about some of the symptoms people might be experiencing, really practical ways that you can support them. The biggest thing for business owners, I think, that impacts people at work, is the brain fog. And if you haven't ever experienced and no one's ever told you about it, it's a thing. And it's a really big thing for a lot of grievers that sense that just your brain is foggy and you can't remember things. And it's of course, linked to sleep deprivation and all our issues with sleeping and eating and all the things that keep us healthy and whole that we don't do very well in early grief. So that would be the thing to really click on there. And then there's another page that's called Grief at Work that just gives a little brief outline of what I offer as my program. So what I would come into your company and offer you. So that would be the two things. And then if you want to keep digging, my blog posts are all there so you can learn more about how grief worked for me. And now when I'm doing a blog post, I try and include a section on the bottom with some suggestions and ideas for someone who's grieving, for someone who's supporting them, and then for a business owner. So there's some really rich information there, but I would start with the Grief at Work ebook. That's the place to start. Brilliant.
Stuart Webb [00:18:29]:
Thank you, Suzanne, so much. You talked a little bit about how you sort of go into this, and I don't want you to expose too much of that because I think that's a thing which probably is personal to you. But is there a particular book or course which you think helped you when you were starting your grief journey that you would recommend other people to start using to get through the grief process and help them to understand what they should be doing?
Suzanne Jabour [00:19:00]:
Yeah, that's such an interesting question for me in those early days of grief. And one of the things I still struggle with is nonfiction comprehension. Like remembering what I've read, is still really hard with nonfiction. So I relied really on Facebook and Instagram posts because they're short and chunky and you don't have to read very long. So one of the people's work that helped me really get through those early, early days is Megan Devine, and her book is It's Okay That You're Not okay. And she's on Facebook and Instagram. She has a website, email, podcast, all the things she's really great for those early days. And the other person that has helped me really the most on my grief journey is David Kessler. And that's actually who I did my grief educator course with. I knew that from my own experience, which is how my company ended up with the name it had. I knew my lived experience was going to be enough for me to be able to help people. And I also wanted to have a foundation in understanding grief in a broader sense and what other people's experiences might be. So I sought out a grief educator course, and I did that with David Kessler, who's written I think he's written six books now about grief. His latest book, which is really fabulous once you're out of that kind of survival mode, is called Finding Meaning. And it's all about sort of that sense of post traumatic growth that we know is possible if we choose it and if we have the capacity for that. So his most recent book is about sort of how do you integrate that person, how do you find meaning from this experience, from this loss? And that's really helped me a lot, sort of after that first year and a half, two years, when I started to really well. I mean, I looked for meaning right from the beginning because that was going to be my path, my way with grief. But for a lot of people, they don't make that choice then, because they're so in survival mode and they just need to get through every day. But once you're ready to kind of look at the broader impacts of that loss in your life, that's a really helpful resource. And he also is present on Facebook and Instagram has a great website, courses, an amazing online support community. So both of those people really helped me a lot.
Stuart Webb [00:21:07]:
And Susanna, I hope we'll find your website and your pages to do exactly the same thing, because I think you're bringing us some real valuable insights here and I don't want to diminish those in any way. But look, we've covered some interesting ground, but I always finish these interviews with my fifth and I often admit, a get out of jail free question, which means I don't have to do any work here. This is about you, and I want this to be about you. So there is a question that you must be thinking, he hasn't yet asked me, and so now is the opportunity for you to say, the question you really should have been asking me is this. But then, of course, you obviously have to answer it because otherwise we won't know the answer. So what is that question you would have liked me to have asked, which I've so far failed to do?
Suzanne Jabour [00:21:55]:
I think the question that is the most important to me that we've touched on a little bit is why does it matter? Because I think with this topic that we so are sort of conditioned and enculturated to kind of Turntail and run away. We're all so scared, we feel so much fear around it. It's really easy for us to think, well, but that doesn't really matter. Why does that matter? Why do I need to do this? It's uncomfortable. I don't like it. She's talking about emotions at work. I'm out. Like, I don't want to do this. Why it matters is that these people who are grieving are valuable parts of your team and they're valued customers and they are important to your business's success. So everything that I'm talking about, we all want to do because we're most of us on a path of trying to become a better human. The other reason it matters is because this impacts your bottom line. When you look at the cost of having to do recruitment and interviewing and training and all that stuff and getting someone up to speed as opposed to retention. It is much cheaper if we're only going to look at it from the bottom line, right? From a business financial perspective, it is much cheaper to offer short term, medium term, long term scaffolding and support to existing valuable team members than it is to find somebody new. And especially in this climate where it feels easier for people to leave and find something else that feels like it's shifting a little bit now here anyway. But it's been an employees market for a long time these last few years, so people seem to feel more able to go. You know what? I've had a shift in my perspective and a shift in what I'm prepared to do at work and what I'm prepared to put up with. And I'm not prepared to put up with this anymore. So it matters because grief gives us an in to talk about some really complicated things that are actually really important for all of us. And the ripple effect that you create, this system of having scaffolding, this system of supports for people who are struggling, a culture where it's expected that sometimes we will struggle and we have all these things in place for when you are. That's a huge shift in culture. And when we shift that culture to having a business where people feel seen and heard and valued, then we're increasing loyalty for our staff and our customers. And ultimately that's what we all want. So that's why it matters.
Stuart Webb [00:24:19]:
Love it. Suzanne, that's been what a way to finish this particular episode. Suzanne, you have educated me. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes on this call with me today. I really appreciate the effort that you've gone to to talk to us about this. I will just now be very quick and just say, look, if you would like to join the newsletter list and get notification each week of just some of the most brilliant guests that we get on this, so that you can ask them questions during their interview or connect with them afterwards, get onto the website, which is link thecompletroach Co Uknewsletter simple form. Fill it out. You get onto the newsletter list, I send you an email once a week which says, who's coming on this week? You get access to be able to talk to some of the most brilliant people I've found on the planet. Suzanne, thank you so much for coming on and spending a few minutes with us. We really do appreciate all the time you spent with us and for some of that really educational advice.
Suzanne Jabour [00:25:24]:
Thank you so much for having me. You're so welcome.
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