517: The Future of Homebuilding with George Gilder

2 sep · Get Rich Education

00:43:42

Futurist, Technologist and Author of many titles including the classic “Wealth and Poverty”, George Gilder joins us to discuss supply side economics and the transformative potential of using graphene material in various industries including real estate.

We discuss economic growth measured by time prices, showing that private sector progress is faster than GDP estimates.

Learn about graphene's properties, including its strength and conductivity, and its potential to transform various industries.

Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper and the world’s thinnest material.

Resources:

getgilder.com

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. I'm talking about the various economic scare tactics out there, like the BRICS, the FDIC and the housing crash. What lower interest rates mean? How our nation's $35 trillion debt has gone galactic. Then today's guest is a legend. He's a technologist and futurist. It tells us about today's promise of graphene in real estate all today on get rich education. when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:40

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:56

Welcome to GRE from Dunedin, Florida to Dunedin, New Zealand and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education, where real estate investing is our major. That's what we're here for, with minors in real estate economics and wealth mindset. You know, as a consumer of this media type as you are, it's remarkable how often you've probably encountered these de facto scare tactics, like the BRICS are uniting and it will take out the dollar and it's just going to be chaos in the United States. You might know that BRICS, B, R, I, C, S is the acronym for Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. Do you know how hard it is to get off the petro dollar and how hard it is for the BRICS, which is basically more than just those five countries, it's dozens of countries. How hard it is for them to agree on anything with things as various as their different economies, and they'll have different customs and currencies. I mean, sheesh, just for you to get yourself and three friends all to agree to meet at the same coffee shop at the same time, takes, like a Herculean effort, plus a stroke of luck, and all full of you are like minded, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the dollar hyper inflating to worthlessness, although it should slowly debase. What about the scare tactic of the FDIC is going to implode, and this could lead to bank closures and widespread societal panic. Well, the FDIC, which stands for Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, they're the body that backs all of the US bank deposits, including yours, and it's steered by their systemic resolution Advisory Committee. Well, there are $9 trillion in bank deposits, and is backed by only a few 100 billion in FDIC cash, so there aren't nearly enough dollars to back the deposits. So can you trust your money in the bank? That's a prevalence scare tactic, but my gosh, if nothing else, history has shown that the government will step in to backstop almost any crisis, especially a banking related one, where one failure can have a cascading effect and make other institutions fall. I'm not saying that this is right, but time has proven that the government does and will step in, or the common scare tactic in our core of the world that is the eminent housing price crash. And I define a crash as a loss in value of 20% or more. Do you know how difficult this would be to do anytime soon? Housing demand still outstrips supply. Today's homeowners have loads of protective equity, an all time high of about 300k so they're not walking away from their homes. Inflation has baked higher replacement costs into the real estate cake, and now mortgage rates have fallen one and a half percent from this cycle's highs, and they are poised to fall further, so a housing price crash is super unlikely, and a new scare tactic for media attention seems to be this proposal by a future presidential hopeful about a tax on unrealized gains. Now Tom wheelwright is the tax expert. He's returning to the show with us again soon here, so maybe I'll ask him about it. But a tax on unrealized gains is politically pretty unpopular. It would be a mess to impose, and a lot of others have proposed it in the past as well, and it has not gone anywhere. Plus tax changes need congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress, there's a small chance that attacks on unrealized gains could come to fruition, but it would be tough. It's probably in the category of just another media scare tactic, much like the BRICS and the shaky FDIC banking structure had a housing price crash. I like to keep you informed about these things, and at times we do have guests with a disparate opinion from mine on these things. Good to get a diversity of opinions, but it's best not to go too deep into these scare tactics that are really unlikely to happen any time soon. Well, there was a party going on 10 days ago at what all affectionately dub club fed in Jacksonhole Wyoming, I don't know what the club fed cover charge was, but fortunately, we did not have to watch Janet "Grandma" Yellen dance at Club fed and and share. Jerome Powell, yes, he finally caught a rate cut buzz. He announced that the time has come for interest rate cuts, and as usual, he didn't offer specifics. Total rager. what a party. later this month, he's going to render the long awaited decision, which now seems to be, how much will cut rates by a quarter point or a half point? Did you know that it's been four and a half years since the Fed lowered rates? Yeah, that was March of 2020, at the start of the pandemic. And then we know what happened back in 2022 and 2023 they hiked rates so much that they needed trail mix, a sleeping bag and some Mountain House freeze dried meals to go along with their steady hiking cycle. Interest rates now, though have been untouched for over a year, it's been an interesting year for the Fed and rates many erroneously thought there would be six or more rate cuts this year. And what about Maganomics? Trump recently said that if he becomes president, he should be able to weigh in on fed decisions that would depart from a long time tradition of Fed independence from executive influence. Historically, they've been separated.

Donald Trump 08:26

The Federal Reserve's a very interesting thing, and it's sort of gotten it wrong a lot. And he's tending to be a little bit later on things. He gets a little bit too early and a little bit too late. And, you know, that's very largely a it's a gut feeling. I believe it's really a gut feeling. And I used to have it out with him. I had it out with him a couple of times, very strongly. I fought him very hard. And, you know, we get along fine. We get along fine. But I feel that, I feel the president should have at least say in there. Yeah, I feel that strongly. I think that, in my case, I made a lot of money. Iwas very successful, and I think I have a better instinct than in many cases, people that would be on the Federal Reserve or the chairman.

Keith Weinhold 09:10

Those Trump remarks were just a few weeks ago, and then shortly afterward, he seemed to walk those comments back, but he did say that he would not reappoint. DJ J-pal, to the economic turntables. It's a long standing economic argument as well about whether an outside force like the Fed should set interest rates at all, which is the price of money, rather than allowing the rate to float with the free market as lenders and borrowers negotiate with each other. I mean, no one's out there setting the price of oil or refrigerators or grapes, but it is pretty remarkable that the Fed has signaled that rate cuts are eminent when inflation is still 2.9% well above their 2% target. But let's be mindful about the Fed's twofold mission, what they call their dual mandate. It is stable prices and maximum employment. Well, the Fed's concern is that second one, it's that the labor market has slowed and see the way it works is pretty simple. Lower interest rates boost employment because it's cheaper for businesses to borrow money that encourages them to expand and hire, which is exactly how lower interest rates help the labor market. That's how more people get hired, and this matters because you need a tenant that can pay the rent. So the bottom line here is to expect lower interest rates on savings accounts, HELOCs, credit cards and automobile loans. What this means to real estate investors is that lower mortgage rates are eminent, although the change should be slow. Two years ago, mortgage rates rose faster than they're going to fall. Now, one thing that lower interest rates can do is lower America's own debt. Servicing costs and America's public debt is drastic. Now, between 35 and $36 trillion in fact, to put our debt into perspective, it has gone galactic. And I mean that in an almost literal sense, because look, if you line up dollars, dollar bills, which are about six inches long, if you line those up end to end from Earth, how far do you think that they would reach? How about to the moon? Oh, no, if you line up dollars end to end, they would stretch beyond the moon. Okay, let's see how far we can follow them out through the solar system. They would breeze past Mars, which is 140 million miles away, the next planet out Jupiter. Oh, our trail of dollar bills would extend beyond that. Next up is Saturn and its ring. The dollar bills would reach beyond that. We're getting to the outer planets now, Uranus still going. Neptune, okay, Neptune is about $30 trillion bills away, and we would have to go beyond that then. So our 35 to $36 trillion of national debt would almost reach Pluto that's galactic. That's amazing. That's bad, and it probably means we have to print more dollars in order to pay back the debt, which is, of course, long term inflationary. And I don't know what's stopping us from going from $36 trillion up to say, 100 trillion, gosh. next week here on the show, we're talking about real estate investing in one of the long time best and still hottest real estate investor states, and then later on, we've got brilliant tax wizard Tom wheelwright returning, as we know here at GRE real estate pays five ways, and if you have any Spanish speaking family or friends, I've got a great way for them to consume all five video modules. It's an AI converting my voice to Spanish in these videos, we have a Spanish speaker here on staff at Get Rich Education, and she said the dub is pretty good. Well, the entire package, real estate pays five ways in Espanol is condensed into a powerful one hour total, all five videos a course, all in one wealth building hour. It's free to watch. There's no email address to enter or anything you can tell your Spanish speaking family and friends, or maybe your multilingual and your primary language is Spanish. That is it getricheducation.com/espanolricheducation.com/espanol or a shorter way to get to the same pageis getricheducation.com/espricheducation.com/esp, that's getricheducation.com/esp.richeducation.com/esp. This week's guest is one of the first people I ever heard discussing the blockchain and cryptocurrency 15 years ago, and then he was early on AI. What got my attention is his education about a promising construction material for building new real estate, though, I expect that our discussion will delve outside of real estate today as well. Let's meet the incomparable George Gilder. This week's guest is the co founder at the Discovery Institute, discovery.org original pillar of supply side economics, former speechwriter to both Presidents Reagan and Nixon. And he's the author of the classic book on economics called Wealth and Poverty. Today he's at the forefront of technological breakthroughs. He's a Harvard grad. He wears a lot of stripes. I've only mentioned a few. Hey, welcome to GRE George Gilder.

George Gilder 15:09

right there better here.

Keith Weinhold 15:11

It's so good to host you, George, in both your writings and your influences on people like President Reagan, you champion supply side economics. And I think of supply side economics as things like lower taxes, less regulation and free trade. We had someone in the Reagan administration here with us a few months ago, David Stockman. He championed a lot of those same things. But go ahead and tell us more about supply side economics and what that means and how that's put into practice.

George Gilder 15:43

Well, it really begins with human creativity in the image of your Creator, essence of supply side economics now super abundant. I mean supply side economics triumphs. We had the whole information technology revolution ignited during the Reagan years and now dominates the world economy and gives the United States seven out of the top 10 companies in market cap. 70% of global corporate market cap is American companies because of supply side economics amazing, and that's why it's distressing to see supply side economics, with its promise of super abundance and prosperity and opportunity, Give way to narrow nationalistic calculations and four tenths of war. I mean, all these Jews are at the forefront. Today, in time, we're going to see human creativity once again prevail in my books, Life After Capitalism is my latest book, my new paradigm is graphene. Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms, two dimensional layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper. It switches and the terahertz trillions of times a second, rather than the billions of times a second that our current silicon chips which and you mix it with concrete, the concrete comes 35% stronger, just parts per million of graphene mixed with concrete yields some material that's 35% stronger than ordinary concrete. You mix a parts per million of graphene with asphalt, the roads don't get potholes in the winter. It's radically Abate, but it conducts signals so accurately. If you go on YouTube, you can find a mouse and said it's spinal cord severed completely, injected with graphene, the spinal signals transmitted so accurately that the you see the mouse doing cartwheels by the end of the YouTube measure. I mean, it's material that's going to transform all industries, from real estate to medicine to surgery to electronics. Electronics been kind of the spearhead of our economy, of the transformation and electronics may be more significant than any other domain.

Keith Weinhold 18:49

Well, this is a terrific overview of all the contributions you're making to both the economic world and the technology world with what you told us about right there. And I do want to ask you some more about the graphene and the technology later. But you know, if we bring it back to the economics, it was in your classic book, Wealth and Poverty, which sold over a million copies, where you espouse a lot of the same things that you still espouse today in your more recent books, that is, capitalism begins with giving, we can often think of it that way. As a real estate investor is where we need to give tenants a clean, safe, affordable, functional property before we profit. Capitalism begins with giving.

George Gilder 19:32

Absolutely. That's a crucial debate I had with Ayn Rand The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and I say, capitalism is subsist on altruism. I'm concerned for the interests of others, imaginative anticipation of the needs of others. It's an altruistic, generous system, and from that generosity. Stems the amazing manifestations of super abundance that which I've been writing about recently. And super abundance shows, measured by time prices, how many hours a typical worker has to spend to earn the goods and services that sustain its life. Yeah, that's where the real cost has time. Yeah, time is money. Money is time, tokenized time, and measured by time, economic growth has been 50 to just enormously faster than is estimated by any of the GDP numbers. However, measured by time government services or ordinary GDP assumes that every dollar of government spending is worth what it costs. Prices both show that progress in the private sector has been four or five times faster than is estimated by GDP well government time, price of government dominated goods, including, increasingly, healthcare and education, is way less valuable than the cost. It's value subtracted, and certainly trillions of dollars for windmills and solar panels, trillions of dollars of subsidies is a net subtraction of value in the world economy. So I am with Gale Pooley and Tupy, both who wrote a book called Superabundance that I wrote the introduction to, and William Nordhaus, the Nobel laureate from Yale, who really conceived and developed time prices and showed that economic growth is 1000s of times greater than has been estimated by ordinary economic data. This is a time of abundance. It's not a time of scarcity. It's not a time of the dismal science. It's the time of super abundance.

Keith Weinhold 22:17

Yes, 100% a lot of that is just the government getting out of the way and really let people be givers, be that go giver and lead with giving, because I have never heard of a society that's taxed its way to prosperity.

George Gilder 22:34

Yeah. Well, that's absolutely the case. And I've been talking previously about graphene, which is the great new material that has been discovered of the last a couple decades. It originated, a lot of the science originated in Jim Tour's laboratory. James Tour of Rice University, and he's had scores of companies have emerged from his laboratory, and 18 of them got started in Israel. Israel is really become a leading force in the world economy. And when Israel is in jeopardy, our economy is in jeopardy. We have 100,000 Israeli citizens working in companies in Silicon Valley, 100,000 all the leading American tech companies have outposts in Israel, and now we face what I call the Israel test, which is how you respond to people who are really superior in creativity and accomplishment and intellect, and the appropriate thing to do is emulate them and learn from them. But too many people in the world see success and they want to tear it down, or they think it was stolen from someone else, or it was part of a zero sum game where the riches of one person necessarily come at the expense of someone else, which is the opposite of the truth, the riches proliferate opportunities for others. That's how the economy grows through the creativity and the image of your Creator.

Keith Weinhold 24:25

And when you bring up Israel, they're one of many nations that's made strong contributions to society and the economy, and we think about other nations that's been an increasingly relevant conversation these past few years, a lot of that centers on immigration. I'm not an expert on how many people we should let into this country or any of those sort of policy sorts of things, but here is a real estate investing show. I often think about where and how we're going to house all these immigrants, whether they come from Central America or South America or Israel or. Anywhere else. And I know oftentimes you've touted immigrations economic benefits, so I think it's pretty easy for one to see how in the short term, immigrants could be of economic detriment, but tell us more about those long term economic benefits of immigrants coming to the United States.

George Gilder 25:17

Immigrants come to the United States and become Americans and contribute American opportunity and wealth. We won the second world war because of immigration of Jewish scientists from Europe to the United States, who led by people like John von Neumann and Oppenheimer who forged the Manhattan Project, and that's really how we won the Second World War, was by accepting brilliant immigrants who wanted to serve America. Now there is a threat today where immigrants come to the United States not to contribute to the United States, but to exploit the United States, or even destroy it, not to go givers. They are givers, and so we want immigrants who are inclined to commit to America and create opportunities for the world, but immigrants who want to tear down America and who believe that America owes them something tend to be less productive and less valuable immigrants and immigrants who really want to destroy western civilization, and the jihadists that we know about are actually a threat to America. So the immigration problem isn't simple, but when we had a system where legal immigrants could apply and enter our country and revitalize it, that was a wonderful system, but having boards of illegal immigrants just pour over the border is not an intelligent way to deal with the desire of people around the world to share an American prosperity.

Keith Weinhold 27:13

We've seen several cases in the past year or two where immigrants are given free housing. There are really great case studies about this in Massachusetts and some other places, how they're giving housing before oftentimes, our own Americans, including sometimes retired veterans, are provided with housing. This all comes down to the housing crunch and already having a low housing supply. So what are some more your thoughts about just how much of a layup or a handout should we give new immigrants?

George Gilder 27:42

Housing technology is going to be transformed by the material science revolution that is epitomized by graphene, this miracle material I was describing. I think part of the problem is real estate enterprise is over regulated, and there are too many obstacles to the building of innovative new forms of housing. In 20 years, it'll be hard to recognize many of the structures that emerge as a result of real revolution in material science that is epitomized by this graphene age that I've been describing, and that also will transform electronics as well, and part housing can become a kind of computer platform as Elon Musk is transforming the auto business by seeing Tesla is really a new form of computer platform. I believe there's going to be an Elon Musk of real estate who is going to re envisage housing as a new form of building a computer platform that makes intelligent houses of the future that will be both cheaper and more commodious for human life.

Keith Weinhold 29:12

Real estate is rather old and slow moving when we think about technology in real estate, maybe what comes to mind are smart thermostats, smart doorbells, or 3d printed homes. When we come back, we're going to learn more about graphene and what it can do in real estate in the nanocosm revolution. Our guest is George Gilder. We talked about economics. We're coming back to talk about technology. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold

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Dolf Deroos 31:19

This is the king of commercial real estate. Dolph de Roos, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:32

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're joined by an illustrious, legendary guest, George Gilder, among being other things, including a prolific writer. He's also the former speechwriter to presidents Reagan and Nixon. He's got a really illustrious and influential career. George, you've been talking about graphene, something that I don't think our audience is very familiar with, and I'm not either. Tell us about graphene promise in real estate.

George Gilder 31:59

Well, back in Manchester, England, in 2004 graphene was first discovered and formulated. It actually was submerged before then, but the Nobel Prizes were awarded to Geim and Novoselov in2010. So this is a new material that all of us know when we use a lead pencil, a lead is graphite, and graphene is a single layer of graphite. And it turns out, many people imagined if you had a single layer of graphite, it would just break up. It would not be useful.

Keith Weinhold 32:42

We're talking super thin, like an atom.

George Gilder 32:45

Yeah, it's an atom thick, but still, it turns out that it has miraculous properties, that it's 200 times stronger than steel. If you put it in a trampoline, you couldn't see the trampoline, but you could bounce on it without go following through it. It can stop bullets. It means you can have invisible and almost impalpable bulletproof vests, and you mix it with concrete, and the concrete is becomes 35% stronger, even parts per million of graphene can transform the tensile strength of concrete, greatly reduce the amount you need, and enable all sorts of new architectural shapes and capabilities. We really are in the beginning of a new technological age, and all depressionary talk you hear is really going to be eclipsed over coming decades by the emergence of whole an array of new technologies, graphene, for instance, as a perfect film on wafer of silicon carbide and enable what's called terahertz electronics, which is trillions of cycles a second like light rather than billions of cycles a second like or Nvidia or L silicon chips, and it really obviates chips, because you what it allows is what's called wafer scale integration of electronics, and today, it the semiconductor industry, and I've written 10 books on semiconductors over the years, but the semiconductor industry functions by 12 inch wafers that get inscribed with all sorts of complex patterns that are a billionth of a meter in diameter. These big wafers and then the way. First get cut up into 1000s of little pieces that each one gets encapsulated in plastic packages and by some remote Asian islands, and then get implanted on printed circuit boards that arrayed in giant data centers that now can on track to consume half the world's energy over the next 20 years, and these new and all this technology is ultimately going to be displaced by wafer scale integration on The wafer itself. You can have a whole data center on a 12 inch wafer with no chips. It's on the wafer itself. And this has been recently announced in a paper from Georgia Tech by a great scientist named Walter de Heere. And it's thrilling revolution that that render as much as Silicon Valley obsolescent and opens up just huge opportunities in in construction and real estate and architecture and medicine and virtually across the range of contemporary industry.

Keith Weinhold 36:20

You wrote a book about blockchain and how we're moving into the post Google world is what you've called it. So is this graphene technology that you're discussing with us here? Is that part of the next thing, which you're calling the nanocosm revolution?

George Gilder 36:36

The microcosm was an earlier book the quantum revolution and economics and technology. I thought I wrote years ago called microcosm.

Keith Weinhold 36:46

Okay, we're getting smaller than microcosm now in nanocosm.

36:49

that was microns, that was millionths of a meter dimensions of the transistors and devices and silicon chips, the nanocosm is a billionth of the meter. It's 1000 times smaller the features and electronics of the future, and we're moving from the microcosm into the nanocosm. New materials like graphene epitomize this transformation. You know, people think that these giant data centers all around the world, which are amazing structures, but half the energy in these data centers are devoted to removing the heat rather than fueling the computation. And I believe these data centers are represent a kind of IBM mainframe of the current era. When I was coming up, people imagined that a few 100 IBM mainframe computers, each weighing about a ton, would satisfy all the world's needs for computation, and that new artificial minds could be created with these new IBM mainframes. And it's the same thing today, only we're talking about data centers, and I believe that the coming era will allow data centers in your pocket and based on graphene electronics, and wait for scale integration, a whole new paradigm that will make the current data centers look like obsolete, old structures that need to be revitalized.

Keith Weinhold 38:37

Around 2007 Americans and much of the world, they got used to how it feels to have the power of a computer in their pocket with devices like the iPhone. How would it change one's everyday life to have effectively a data center in their pocket?

38:54

This means that we no longer would be governments of a few giant companies hearing a singular model of intelligence. That's what's currently envisaged, that Google Brain or Facebook or these giant data setters would sum up all human intelligence and in a particular definition, but there are now 8 billion human beings on earth, and each of our minds is as densely connected as the entire global internet. And while the global Internet consumes error watts, trillions of watts of power, or brains. Each of these 8 billion human minds functions on 12 to 14 watts, or it's billions of times less than these data center systems. On the internet. I believe that technology works to the extent that it expands human capabilities, not to the extent that it displaces human capabilities. The emergence of distributed databases in all our pockets, distributed knowledge and distributed creativity can revitalize the whole world economy and open new horizons that are hard to imagine today, as long as we don't, all of a sudden decide that we live in a material universe where everything is scarce and successes by one person come at the expense of somebody else, as long as that zero sum model doesn't prevail, right? Human opportunities are really unlimited. Most of economics has been based on a false model of scarcity, the only thing that's really scarce is time. Imagination and creativity are really infinite.

Keith Weinhold 41:10

Yes, well, if someone wants to learn more about graphene in the nanocosm revolution, how can you help them? What should they do?

41:18

They can read my newsletters. I have a company with four newsletters. I write the Gilder Technology Report. Much of the time I write, John Schroeder writes moonshots, which is and I have a Gilder Private Reserve that reaches out with our crowd and Israel, and a lot of those graph gene companies in Israel are part of our Private Reserve. And I do Gilders Guide posts, and those are all available getgilder.com.

Keith Weinhold 41:56

if you'd like to learn more about George and his popular newsletter called the Gilder Technology Report. You can learn more about that at get gilder.com George, it's been an enlightening conversation about economics and where society is moving next. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

George Gilder 42:16

Thank you, Keith. I really appreciate it.

Keith Weinhold 42:24

yeah, a forward looking discussion with the great George Gilder. Forbes said graphene may be the next multi trillion dollar material. George will tell you that you want to get into graphene now, while the biggest gains are still ahead. If it interests you in at least learning more, check out his video resource. It's free. There's also an opportunity for you to be an investor. You can do all of that and more at getgilder.com again getguilder.com until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. Don't Quit Your Daydream.

43:04

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 43:32

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com

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533: GRE's 2025 Home Price Appreciation Forecast
23 dec· Get Rich Education
Keith unveils our 2025 National Home Price Appreciation Forecast. Learn the factors driving the housing market and discover why Keith's predictions have been spot-on for the past 3 years. Gain the insights you need to make strategic real estate moves in the year ahead. Don't miss this must-listen episode packed with actionable real estate insights.

The Fannie Mae home purchase sentiment index rose, indicating growing consumer confidence.

Trump's immigration and tariffs policies and their potential impact on housing demand and labor market disruption.

Hear about the impact of the under supply of housing in the US and the potential impact on home prices.

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Keith Weinhold 0:00

Welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, today is the day that I'm giving you our 2025 national home price appreciation forecast. You'll get the exact percent that I expect home prices to rise for Fall next year. Learn the factors that really move prices. Importantly, I follow up and you get the results of previous years forecasts too. Will it be a holly jolly forecast or more Grinch like today on Get Rich Education.

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you know, whenever you want the best written real estate and finance info. Oh, geez. Today's experience limits your free articles access, and it's got paywalls and pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. It's not so great. So then it's vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point because even the word abbreviation is too long, my letter usually takes less than three minutes to read, and when you start the letter, you also get my one hour fast real estate video. Course, it's all completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter. It wires your mind for wealth, and it couldn't be easier for you to get it right now just text GRE to 66866, while it's on your mind, take a moment to do it right now. Text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 3:12

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 3:28

Welcome to GRE from North port, Florida to North Pole, Alaska and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education episode 533 Yes, your favorite slack jawed real estate podcaster here is indeed the GRE founder. I'm also an active Forbes real estate council member, best selling author. I write our weekly Don't quit your Daydream newsletter. And perhaps most importantly, I am an active real estate investor, I am here to help you invest well in real estate, and that is because most Americans have enough saved for an absolutely incredible single day of retirement. Look the content that you choose to listen to will shape your behavior, it'll even gradually alter your identity over time and forge your dreams. Middle class financial advice will keep you squarely in the middle class. They get robbed of the fruits of their labor through taxes. Get robbed of their purchasing power through inflation, and they get robbed of their financial future by staying financially illiterate. I mean, if you're grinding hard and sacrificing experiences to be debt free at 36 well then that means you aren't using other people's money. You, it confirms that you've got no leverage. Why celebrate that? Celebrate financial freedom or a great vacation, or, you know, anything else, like with your friends and family to the Canary Islands. I mean, that's stuff that's worth celebrating, that's extraordinary in this one and only life that you got. I love the old African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. You and I are on this journey together. Dream of living the life where you just give a light touch to some of your investments while they are building your wealth, just adjust the sales of your ship a little here and there. Now. We'll get into the big picture real estate forces in my exact percent home price appreciation figure shortly. But doesn't that sound amazing where you can just do this? I mean, that's what I do. I just give a light touch to my investments. For example, at the beginning of this month, I looked at the statements as they came in in emails from my property managers in various real estate markets, like I usually do now when you have a perfect month as a real estate investor, US landlords, or should I say, housing providers, acknowledging last week's show we develop our own vernacular. A perfect month is when you have 100% rental occupancy and no repair items. Once though you have more than about five rental units, it's hard to ever have a perfect month. It's always good to budget something toward long term vacancy and maintenance. But I had a pretty good month last month. For some reason, my properties needed a few new appliances, a replaced fridge. Here, a new microwave. There, a lot of appliances like a fridge, you know, they can still look pretty close to new, even if they're used. That's fine for a rental. This was just a $280 fridge replacement, for example, in this one rental, single family home of mine. So yeah, just that monthly scan of your property manager statement, seeing that income and expenses look kind of reasonable to you, and then going about your day and the rest of your month. Now, it wasn't always that way for me. As I started and grew, I self managed my own properties for the first six or seven years, and sometimes, you know, something will happen where I want to get more proactive and maybe take, say, a 90 minute block of time to shop for lower insurance premiums if I see those rates rising in a certain market or something like that, but that's how it feels to give a light touch to your active direct real estate investments. Keep that going, because this is all happening while you keep other people's money working for you, the banks, the governments and the tenants.

Hey, something that's become newsworthy, an index measuring consumer confidence in the housing market, rose again last month, and that is the latest sign that potential property buyers and sellers are growing more accustomed to today's mortgage rates and prices. The Fannie Mae home purchase sentiment index that has now increased to 75 points. So the index has risen 11 points or more than 16% in the last year. So there is, however, not one shred of evidence, for example, that sub 3% mortgage rates are coming back anytime soon, maybe not even in this decade or in your entire lifetime. Who really knows? I mean, it's soon going to be three years since the Fed began their aggressive rate hiking cycle and the market and consumer expectations are finally adjusting and settling down, and that right there that factors in just the touch to the housing forecast that I'm going to deliver to you today. And before I get into that, since we are get rich education, do you know what the federal funds rate is like, what it really means? Let me explain this to you in a way where I think you'll not only learn, but I'm going to give you an example so that you can actually remember it. And I'm going to over simplify it, the federal funds rate, that thing that Jerome Powell and his committee set, that is the rate that banks pay other banks to borrow from each other. It's a little over 4% right now. Okay, let's just say it's 4% here's why the federal funds rate is typically lower than mortgage rates. Say that Wells Fargo pays bank of America this 4% federal funds rate to borrow so that Wells Fargo can then turn around and lend the funds to you for a real estate mortgage loan. All right. Well now you can see that Wells Fargo had to pay Bank of America 4% that's why, when you go get your real estate loan from Wells Fargo, you can understand and see why they'd have to charge you, say, 7% in order to make a spread. That is why mortgage rates are higher than the federal funds rate. Wells Fargo made the spread of 3% because they borrowed at four, and they lent it to you at seven, and you yourself you borrowed at seven because your tenant pays your interest and principal for you, and you get the leverage and all of the other benefits. So again, the federal funds rate is the rate that banks pay when they borrow from other banks, and since they need to make a spread arbitrage, this is why mortgage rates are higher. Again, that's oversimplified, but I think that's a way where you can really remember what that is and why that is that way. All right.

Well, with that lesson understood, let's talk about the big national home price forecast for next year. And here's what's interesting. Look at the forecasts that my peers have made. All right, I've already got the forecasts from 16 other housing analytics platforms here, and they have all predicted that home prices will rise next year, all 16 of them, but they've all forecast something different. And everything we're discussing today, by the way, is nominal, meaning, not inflation adjusted. All right. Note that the average of all these platforms, all 16 of them, is a 2.8% gain for next year. All right, if you look at all of them the range, the highest is Goldman, Sachs at 4.4% and the lowest is Moody's Analytics at just 310 of 1%

I'll tell you now that my forecast today, it wouldn't even fit on this chart, it is going to be off the chart. And this is something that might ramp up your intrigue. Maybe you think I would look at this and choose something safe, and since I have the benefit of seeing how 16 others have weighed in that, I'll just pick something in the middle of that. Oh, no, not at all. This is an independent forecast. So since our forecast is off the chart, then that means that what I'm going to tell you today either has to be higher than the highest, which is that 4.4% from Goldman Sachs, or lower than the lowest, which is that 310 of 1% from Moody's. Yes, it is outside of those brackets, busting the bookends today. And as I lead up to it, I will detail the reasons why the calculus that went into this forecast. So before we're done, yes, you will get the exact percent number that I expect existing single family home values to increase by or decrease by next year. It is the fourth straight year that I'm doing this. And now a lot of people make whimsical predictions, you know. But today, you're gonna get something that you rarely, if ever get accountability, because I'm also going to show you the results, you'll see how well my forecasts have actually performed each of the past three years. Sheesh, don't you wish everyone followed up on the prediction that they made now, oh gosh, most housing price crash Predictions Fail Faster than your average New Year's resolution. All right, we need first historic context in order to put this future that we're talking about into perspective. Let's look at how bad other predictions have been this is something that Yahoo Finance recently pointed out, the year by year, reasons that people thought housing prices would crash Since 2012 so we're talking about the past 13 years here, starting in 2012 it was shadow inventory. Remember that that never came true. 2013 higher mortgage rates. 2014 in that year. People thought that housing prices could tumble hard because QE was ending in October of that year. That is quantitative easing, which is dollar printing. I mean, basically QE, that's just the Genteel way of saying inflation. In 2015 they thought a manufacturing recession would make home prices crash. In 2016 home prices were back to their pre global financial crisis high. Well, people thought that seemed shaky. In 2017 I don't know what it was. No one had a good reason. But the word crash just gets attention, so some media tried to scare people with that headline. Anyway, in 2018 it was mortgage rates went from 4% up to 5% seriously like that was the top reason. In 2019 it was that home price growth was cooling off in 2020 of course, it was the COVID 19 pandemic in 2021 it was mortgage forbearance in 2022 it was that mortgage rates hit 7% that was the first time we saw those in a while, even though 7% is still below the long term average of seven and three quarters percent in 2023 it was historically low housing demand. People thought that would bring down real estate prices. In 2024 it was sustained higher mortgage rates and an uptick in inventory. And what's it going to be in 2025 I don't know. Clickbait artists will have some other farcical reason why home prices will crash. Just watch, all right, well, with that, look back every year since 2012 of course, real estate prices definitely don't always go up. In fact, when we look at a longer term history, the national home price appreciation rate every year since World War Two. Like I told you on a previous episode, there were only two periods where home prices fell, that's over a period of 80 to 85 years. There was just 1% attrition in 1990 and then the only appreciable loss period, of course, were those years around the 2008 global financial crisis, where you really probably could consider that an all out crash, prices were down more than 20% nationally, more than 40% 50% in some markets, all right. Well, how did that concerning period compare to now? Well, 2008 is when conditions were largely opposite of what they are now that is back 2008 we had an oversupply of homes, and it was all supported by poorly underwritten mortgages, meaning the borrower really couldn't afford the payment. And also that's when people had low or no equity in homes, so they just walked away, so borrowers had no equity to lose, nor any credit score to protect, and it was oversupplied there about 17 years ago. I mean, that era was so bad and also such an anomaly, that home prices actually fell below the replacement cost, if you can believe that, meaning that you could ostensibly buy existing property for less than the cost that it would take to build a property, then all right. Well, all three of those conditions are opposite. Now today, we have an under supply of homes. Secondly, we have carefully underwritten mortgages, and thirdly, we have record high equity positions, about 300k on average. People are not walking away from that unless things got absolutely dire. All right, with that historical context. So here we are building up to my factors for the forecast, and then the big reveal of the percent figure here, before we're done, to be clear, what I'm providing is the projected sales price of existing single family homes per the National Association of Realtors, stat set. All right, so why existing? And not include the new builds into that? Well, first of all, there are way more existing home sales. Then there are new build sales each year. And see, the thing is, though, that tracking new build that really skews the numbers, because what can happen is, one year, you might have a ton of luxury new build homes. Well then that skews the numbers up too much. Or then there's the more nascent trend of what's happening lately, building smaller homes this past year in order to help with affordability and building smaller that can skew the numbers down. So sticking with existing homes that allows us to keep things more same same. Today, you'll learn about what goes into my forecast and the factors that actually don't matter as much as you would think, like the incoming Trump administration. You'll also hear an important clip from Trump in a few minutes for the second week in a row, I'm bringing you the show from a fairly interesting place, Anchorage, Alaska. This city of 300,000 people, is at sea level. The west side is confined by a coast. The east side is confined by mountains. It's a modern US city. There are high rise buildings and convention centers and freeways and a really convenient International Airport. What's interesting about being in America's northernmost city right now? Anchorage is. That Saturday, just a couple of days ago, that was the winter Equinox for half of the globe, the entire northern hemisphere. And here, the sunrise time is about 10:15am, and sunset about 3:45pm, that right there is just five and a half hours of daylight. That's it, but it feels like more than that. It feels closer to perhaps seven plus hours of daylight, because at high latitudes, the sun barely drops below the horizon, so therefore you get more Twilight on either end of sunrise in Sunset. Well, this is a real estate show, so I hope that's not too much of an astronomy lesson for you here. But anchorage can never get 24 hours of daylight or darkness, because it simply is not far enough north. In fact, when I fly from, say, the center of the 48 states out here. I travel more west than North. The thing for you to remember is that the only places on the globe that can get 24 hours of daylight and darkness are inside the Arctic and Antarctic circles. They're at 63 and 1/3 degrees of latitude or greater, and Anchorage is just 61 I've been skiing here, but suffice to say, with a lot of darkness, it's been a good place for me to study research and put my effort into this forecast that I'm sharing with you today, which you'll hear after the break.

This week's episode is supported by ridge lending group. It's the same place where I get my investment property mortgages and refinancings, you can go ahead and originate your loans at the same place I get mine, that is Ridgelendinggroup.com. Also freedom family investments, you can make a loan and get a stable return of 7% 8% or Even 10% yet still have some measure of liquidity. Why park your funds at a bank? You can learn about their private money loans by texting FAMILY to 66866, if you want 8% or more on your money while it's on your mind, just text FAMILY to 66866, and see if it's right for you. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, more next you're listening to get rich education.

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Tom Wheelwright 24:08

This is Rich Dad Advisor Tom Wheelwright. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 24:24

welcome back to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, with the factors that are weighing into my home price appreciation determination for next year. Here now all of these factors matter, but I'm generally going to start with less weighty factors and proceed more toward the weighty factors Trump tariffs. Could Trump tariffs increase materials costs, the cost of materials that go into homes? Well, yes, of course, they could. Could it also increase the labor costs that go into those homes, if, say, businesses decide to onshore. Sure in order to avoid paying the tariffs, yes, and you would have to pay a higher wage to Americans. That's obviously inflationary, but applying tariffs is slow, and it takes a long time to trickle through, okay? But here's the thing, even the threat of tariffs can produce inflation, and we already have the threat that's something real. And now see if you're a consumer and you want to buy a new washer, dryer set or a microwave, well, you're more motivated to do that today, not in a year, because this threat of tariffs might mean that that appliances price will spike. You might want to buy your new car now, if you anticipate the terrace could be coming and it's going to affect that well, the apartment building owner feels the same way before she or he buys 48 washer dryers for their apartment building. Home Builders and remodelers they want to get their materials orders in now, in some cases, whether that's for concrete, drywall, lumber, any component that goes into a home where they think that a tariff could jack up the price, you really need to be paying attention to whether you think this is going to happen or not. So Trump likely means more inflation, and that correlates also with sustained higher interest rates of all kinds, including mortgage rates. And there's no certainty there. There is just that correlation. Now, a lot of real estate investors anticipate that a president with a real estate investor background like Trump Has he is going to return 100% bonus depreciation and extend his tax breaks, okay, all of these things, especially that bonus depreciation, can really enhance your tax situation, but that's not part of the home price appreciation forecast for next year. Okay, we're just looking at next year here. How about mortgage rates? How is that going to factor into home prices for next year? Mortgage rates hardly matter. And the newer listener that you are, the more of a surprise that is, rates are about 7% now, a lot of experts think they're going to go to 6% in a year. But who knows? I mean, a year ago, everyone thought rates would be substantially lower today. But here's the thing, it's not just a who knows. It's almost a who cares about what mortgage rates will be when it comes to prices. Because, like I've shared with you before, since 1994 mortgage rates have risen 1% or more seven different times, and home prices went up all seven times. Long time listeners like you, you already know this, so for the complete backstory on the why, you can listen to earlier episodes, but the short story is that higher rates, you gotta look at what's happening when there are high rates that's a confirmation that the economy is strong, and when the economy is strong and people feel secure in their job, what do they do? They buy a home. So mortgage rates matter, but a person's personal economy matters more when they make a decision to buy a home or not. A sharp fall in rates that correlates with a recession. So higher rates usually lead to higher home prices, something that almost everyone in real estate thinks of oppositely. On weeks with lower rates this year, we did have lower housing inventory, and with higher rates, we had higher inventory. So that did affect that the next factor is more important than tariffs and mortgage rates, and that is Trump and immigration. Okay? Because this affects the supply versus demand component of housing, something supremely important. Well, more immigrants mean more housing demand, pushing up prices and on immigration, who really knows how many of this surge of fresh immigrants are going to be deported? Will it only be the illegals, or will it be others? Or will it be none at all? Or will it be something else, will trump deport everyone? I mean, that is not easy to do, and it's really expensive. Here are Trump's latest public remarks on how he's going to treat recent immigrants to the US. The interviewer is Kristen Welker from NBC, and she's heard shuffling some papers here too. So don't let that throw you off as you listen to Trump.

Speaker 1 29:39

You raised the point that the logistics are complicated. You said yourself, everything's gone. You mean you need 24 times more ICE detention capacity just to deport 1 million people per year, not to mention more agents, more judges, more planes. Is it realistic to deport everyone? First of all, they're costing us a fortune, but we're starting. With the criminals, and we got to do it, and then we're starting with others, and we're going to see how it goes

Keith Weinhold 30:06

well there, before Trump's first day in office for his second term, see he's already saying we'll see how it goes with deporting immigrants. He now realizes how costly that is. If there is mass deportation, housing demand goes down, but we'd also have fewer laborers, which a lot of those immigrants are, to build the new housing that our country needs. So there's somewhat of a canceling out effect there. It could mean higher home prices because it could even mean higher home prices because most fresh immigrants are renters. They aren't occupying homes that they own anyway, and just how many people we're talking about here, the Pew Research Center estimates that 13% of construction workers are undocumented. That disruption to the labor market that can produce higher inflation, because the slowdown in home building means less supply and higher prices. Now let's get to the biggest factor before I provide my track record, and then the big number, and that is more on the housing supply versus demand. So yeah, it's really fundamental economics. That's the core driver of next year's anticipated home price change. All right, let's start with supply. How undersupplied of housing are we still in the US? Well, an update on the Fred active listing count, and this is for single families, condos and townhomes. It's that we are up off the bottom, but we're still a good 40% or so below the equilibrium point where demand meets supply. America grew its available inventory 27% this year, pretty significant, and next year, it might grow another 15 or 20% that's my best guess. All right then, well, let's try to project future supply by what you have to do is look at new housing starts. That means shovels in the ground. That means taking a backhoe and excavating for spread footings, digging that trench that you're going to pour concrete into, starting homes from the ground up. Well, we don't have enough starts either not enough. In fact, we could be digging a deeper hole with the under supply at our current level of building, US housing under supply will grow by over 200,000 homes per year if we continue at this low level of building. And would you consider all housing types, single family homes, apartments, mobile homes, condos, ADUs, everything? Freddie Mac estimates that we are currently under supplied by a whopping 3.7 million housing units. Now, you probably heard figures like that before, but let me put it into perspective. At two persons per home, our shortage is greater than what could house the entire population of Libya. That's what we're talking about here. And some agencies estimate we're even more undersupplied than the 3.7 million homes. Now, of course, I'm making only a national forecast today. There are regional variations in some Texas and Florida sub markets, they have built plenty of new build single family homes now, let me tell you something scary. What if your income dropped by a third, making 1/3 less in the future than you do right now? Like that would be a moment of panic for a lot of people, you and your family, as you hold that thought when it comes to supply, this year had historically low home sales. When I talk about sales, these are not prices. This is different. This is the volume of sales. Next year, there will likely only be a few more sales than this year, and there weren't many this year. Now see for you, as an individual real estate investor and a consumer that goes grocery shopping, you know, you are interested in real estate prices, but the industry, if you work in the industry, like as a builder or as a real estate agent or even a furniture provider, they are more concerned about the number of home sales. This sales volume that I'm talking about, and here's what's going on, normal is about 5 million home sales per year. It was over 6 million during the pandemic, and now we're down at 4 million. So I mean, in a short period of time to go from 6 million down to 4 million, that is a drawdown of transactions by a third. So just imagine if you are a home builder or a real estate agent, or you're in the retail furniture business and your volume is down by a third. I mean, what would happen to you if your income were down by a third? And you're in one of those industries and you don't have a way to pivot, so that is scary stuff for that subset of people. Well, while all of that was happening to sales volume, lower and lower volume. Home prices have just kept ticking up these past few years. All right. Well, that was supply, and there is one last factor to weigh before I reveal the forecast number, and that is demand. There is a long way to go before there is enough housing inventory for the pent up demand in the housing market, pent up demand from these people that can't quite afford a home. Demographics is destiny. You know, it is one of the easiest things to project, because demographics is a known forget immigration here, because I already talked about that just domestically, the US had its own high birth rate years from 1990 to 2010 and most people don't know about this. Many of those years between 1990 and 2010 there were over 4 million births annually, and that peaked in the year 2007 All right, you might be wondering, so what? That's the past? What about the future? Well, in housing prices, that right there is the future, with today's first time homebuyer now being a record 38 years old, like I told you about a few episodes ago. Alright, if you add 38 to the year that they were born, 2007 that home buyer demand won't peak until the year 2045 so that is a big part of where the demand just keeps coming from, and is going to keep coming from this wave of demographic demand that might not slow down much until the 2050s and what could slow prices is if a major recession that included a lot of job losses were eminent, that could slow home price growth. But nobody expects that. you know something, on future demand, What if health and fitness influencer Brian Johnson is right, and Earth now has the first generation not to die. What would that do to real estate prices? Have you ever thought that through that would really expand housing demand, but that wouldn't affect things for a couple decades. All right, well, let's talk track record and understand that it is pretty difficult to predict the future, and I have made all these forecasts at the end of one year, just before the forecast year even starts, just like I'm doing today, and here's how I've done at the end of 2021 for 2022 I forecast 9-10% home price appreciation the year ended, and in 2022 they came in at 10% so I got that one right. For 2023 before that year even began, I forecast 0% just that home prices would stay flat. And by the way, so many people were calling for a housing price decline that year because mortgage rates had risen. But as we know here on the show, when mortgage rates rise, home prices typically do too. And I also said back then was supply so low, I don't really see how home prices could fall. Well, the year ended, and sure enough, they came in at 0% and all of this is published in on record. You can go back and find all this, in fact, for 2024 you can hear the forecast that I made near the end of last year for 2024 and you could do that by going back and listening to Episode 481 this is episode 533 that was 52 weeks ago, and you will hear that my forecast back then for this year's home price appreciation was 4% this year is not quite over, plus housing data lags somewhat, in fact, through October, however, they were 4.1%

we've almost got that November number, not quite, but it's very likely going to end up being 4% this year, just like I had forecast at the end of Last year, but it's still officially to be determined. Before I gave the awaited fresh forecast for next year with what looks to me like really nailing the forecast spot on three years in a row now you might be wondering something, how did I know? How did I have the foresight to know that and nail those. Forecasts. You know, at this point, I have to concede that there's probably a little luck that has come into play, but this is what I do. I study research and even participate in the National residential housing market. What you're getting is my best estimate. It's not any sort of promise or guarantee. I mean, like all other 8.1 billion human beings on earth, I don't have a crystal ball, and a streak like this has gone on for three years, but it cannot go on forever. So this is what I can best surmise. So really, for 2025 The short story is that I expect more buyers than homes, which creates bids and buoyant prices. I also expect continued inflationary pressure. Those are the two chief factors that went into this. We don't ever revise our forecast mid year. This is it. For 2025 I expect home prices to increase by 5%. Yes, there it is 5% projected appreciation for next year. And to be clear, that is the NARS national median existing single family home price, the same stat set that I have cited all four years again, it is nominal, meaning, not inflation adjusted, so at Christmas or New Year's or your next dinner party, when You see your slack jawed brother in law that thinks the housing market is always going to crash, give the dude a hug and a turkey leg and tell him that I expect plus 5% and pass me the wishbone for good luck on our fourth consecutive housing price appreciation forecast, I really hope that this helps with planning your own portfolio moves, whether that's you owning more income property next year or doing a refinancing, or how you think about your own primary residence. And do you like the forecast that I've done here near the end of each year ever since 2021 if you do let us know, write us or leave us voicemail at get rich education.com/contact let me know you can always get a hold of us there year round with any type of feedback or questions.

Hey, if you appreciate this show here, do you think that you could help me out in one small way? Call it my Christmas gift request. There's only one item on my Christmas list, and it should only take a couple minutes of your time and none of your money. Leave a podcast rating and review for the get rich education podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or wherever you listen, the rating is the five star thing. The review is a few short sentences about why you like the show. I would really appreciate the gift from you, and I will read your review myself too. If you don't know how to do it right inside those listener apps, just open up a browser tab and search how to leave an apple podcast review, or Spotify podcast review, or whatever platform you prefer to listen on it would feel like a little Christmas gift to me after all these years, I'd love your feedback given that way. Tell me what you think, and thanks from me and the entire team here at GRE Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your day dream.

Speaker 2 43:46

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 44:06

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com
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532: Inflation is Your Wealth-Building Friend (Really)
16 dec· Get Rich Education
Are you a real estate investor looking to maximize your returns and minimize hassles with your rental properties? This is a must-listen! You'll discover proven strategies for quickly filling vacant units and attracting high-quality, long-term tenants.

Hear Keith share insider tips on leveraging rent increases to boost your cash flow and property values.

Plus, you'll learn about an innovative financial tool - a Home Equity Investment - that can unlock a lump sum of cash from your properties without any monthly payments.

Tune in to get the edge on managing your rentals like a true pro and building lasting wealth through real estate.

This episode is packed with actionable insights you can apply to take your investing business to the next level.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, talking about the dynamic between rents and prices, how to keep your vacancy rate low and the relationship between landlords and tenants. Learn about how a newer vehicle can give you a big lump of cash from your property without you having to make any payments, then inflation is your wealth building, Friend, yeah? really today on get rich education.

Mid south home buyers, I mean, they're total pros, with over two decades as the nation's highest rated turnkey provider, their empathetic property managers use your ROI as their North Star. So it's no wonder that smart investors just keep lining up to get their completely renovated income properties like it's the newest iPhone. They're headquartered in Memphis and have globally attractive cash flows and A plus rating with a better business bureau, and now over 5000 houses renovated. There's zero markup on maintenance. Let that sink in, and they average a 98.9% occupancy rate, while their average renter stays more than three and a half years. Every home they offer has brand new components, a bumper to bumper, one year warranty, new 30 year roofs. And wait for it, a high quality renter. Remember that part and in an astounding price range, 100 to 180k I've personally toured their office and their properties in person in Memphis, get to know Mid South. Enjoy cash flow from day one. Start yourself right now at mid southhomebuyers.com that's mid south homebuyers.com

when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you get pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers, ugh. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters. And I write ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it is to the point to get it. It couldn't be more simple. Just type up a text message with the letters G, R, E in the body and send it to the phone number, 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. Subscribe to my Don't quit your Daydream newsletter, and your mind will be wired for wealth. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866,

Corey Coates 3:02

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 3:18

Welcome to GRE from Villa Lenovo, Pennsylvania to Villanueva, Columbia, and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold in your listening to get rich education. I'm really grateful to have you as always. When you invest, you are buying a day that you don't have to work. That's what we're helping you do here every single week own real estate, and it's going to allow you to buy back big chunks of time for yourself later. And that's a big deal because your very life is made up of chapters of time. It's actually really cool when you own investment properties in a few different places, then you actually own part of, say, Indiana and Tennessee and Georgia. You own parts of those states. That's what we help you do here. And that sounds cool. Sounding cool, though, is not enough. There need to be good fundamental reasons behind the real estate portfolio that you are building. It's kind of interesting. With rental property investing, you're kind of doing the little things in order to hold together the big profitable picture, because there are all these forces that are simultaneously creating wealth for you when you've got income property with a loan. So yeah, you're just sort of trying to hold it together. You say, don't get your vacant property rented as soon as you want. So you might drop the rent 50 bucks and add a nice new kitchen faucet and ta da, just like that. It's rented, and all while you're doing those little things. Things to hold it together. Whether your property is vacant or rented, you are benefiting from leverage and inflation. Profiting on your loan. You're benefiting from some big forces either way. Well, on today's show, first, we're going to be talking about the little things like the one on one relationship between you and your tenant, and then later on the show today, that's when we'll grow and talk about a more macro force, like new ways for you to think about how you're benefiting from inflation when we talk about rents prices and the relationship between a real estate investor like you and your tenant. Recently, on the show here, I talked about how the 4.6% growth in wages like we do have today, that is a harbinger of you getting future rent growth. And this can get rent growth to catch up with the growth that we've had in property prices. And note that this is what happens. You need to remember that the bid format of buying property that allows for more rapid price escalation than the first come first serve at a set price format that you have when you're trying to rent out your property. All right, when you put up a property for sale, or you're the person that's buying one, that's usually not in a first come first serve process that's more of a competitive bid process. And see that is exactly why, in a hot market, real estate prices can run up fast. But because, say, you're renting out a property, and you're doing that, you're usually not accepting offers from prospective tenants and then taking the tenant that has the highest bid. Well, instead with rents, you're just taking the qualified first tenant that agrees to your fixed rent price of, say, $2,000 Okay, your prospective tenant isn't saying, Oh, I really like your rental, single family home, so I'll pay you $2,200 for instead of the 2000 that you're asking. And see that right there is why, in a hot market, property prices run up faster than rents do. But see when prices run up faster than rents, like they did, starting about four years ago, what happens is that begins to make rents, oh, they look like a relative bargain to people that are seeking housing. So that is the time that pivot point when rents catch up with prices, which is the cycle that I hope we are getting into next. Now. Right now, we have to be at a time of year where tenants tend to stay put. There isn't as much turnover as you approach the holidays, but a few months from now, turnover tends to pick up in the springtime. And before we talk about the economics of what you do when you have a vacant unit, understand that despite the national housing shortage, the rental vacancy rate really is not that low nationwide. Do you have any idea what the historically average rental vacancy rate is? You have any guess there? That's about 7% 7.3% to be exact. That's why, when you run your cash flow analysis for a property using one month per year is usually pretty safe, that's about 8% Well, all right, we've established that the long term national rate of vacancy is 7.3% the current vacancy rate is 6.9% and yes, that number is just what it sounds like. It's simply the percentage of rental inventory that's available for rent, and it maxed out at 11% back in 2009 that's when housing was badly overbuilt, and now with the housing shortage, you'll see that today's vacancy rate is only a little below normal, 7.3 versus 6.9 maybe you're wondering, well, why isn't it even lower, like five or 6% Well, one big reason why vacancy rates are just a little lower than the long run average is all of the apartment over building like I discussed with you two weeks on the show and I told you about my walk on rainy street in Austin, Texas last month, where they're building gobs of 500 foot tall apartment towers that aren't going to be occupied for a while, and I called that area America's apartment oversupply ground zero. But as you know, there are so many ways to parse and dissect real estate markets. The vacancy rate for apartment buildings today is 7.8% nationally, but for single family rental homes, it's only 5.4% that's because their supply is more scarce. But since there aren't many new apartment projects just getting started now, they're just completing when they started about two years ago, I would expect the apartment vacancy rate to come down over the next couple of years. And then, of course, each local area is going to have its own vacancy rate too. I mean, there are so many ways to parse, to bifurcate real estate, and all those figures I gave you are per the US Census. Well, I've explained to you before that when you have a vacant unit, that is the time for you to really push it test the market. Start your asking rent up rather high in order to see what you can get for it. And this is what's known in economics, in the free market as price discovery. This is your time for price discovery, but you usually only want to keep the rent way high for just a few days, otherwise you might needlessly increase your vacancy period. But here's the thing, if your unit is vacant after a number of showings, is it better for you to drop the rent, or instead, is it better for you to make some upgrades to the unit and keep that higher asking rent? Well, like seemingly everything in real estate investing, the short answer for you is, it depends right the upside of you dropping the rent is that it's a lot quicker and easier to do than making an upgrade to the unit. I mean, just snap your fingers and it's done. Dropping the rent might only take a few seconds or minutes, but see when you keep the higher asking rent and you make upgrades, you do more than just increase your rent income. You get a better quality tenant, first of all, and secondly, if you get, say, 5% more rent depending on your leverage position, you might get 10% more cash flow, that money that you feel in your pocket every month. A lot of landlords don't even consider those two attributes right there. See, when you get 5% more rent for a unit your tenant, of course, they only have to pay 5% more, yet you yourself as the property provider, you're getting perhaps 8% or 10% or 12% more money in your pocket because of the leverage. And right there, I essentially just described the third crown of get rich. Education's inflation triple crown for you. That third crown is called Cash Flow enhancement. And really there's another, I guess, a third here wealth building attribute that you've accomplished through achieving a higher rent, and that is, if it happens to be a five plus unit apartment building, you also actually just increase the value of the entire property, since they are valued on the net operating income in the cap rate. So we're talking about vacancy, rent and real estate economics here with three distinct elements that I just described about how upgrading and achieving a higher rent gives you a lot of distinct advantages. The downside of it being that it takes more time. And there's another one. What are we up to here? A fourth upside to upgrading and achieving more asking rent, as opposed to doing the minimum for lower rent. And that is, well, it's your pride of ownership. I mean, you're providing good housing now your whole mission is not about altruism alone, but you'll feel like you're on a more fulfilling mission when you are like I often say, providing housing that's clean, safe, still affordable and functional. There's a fifth reason in that is that higher rents help you deal with higher operating expenses. But maybe it's beyond just the way in which you're thinking. And you know, a lot of people really don't understand this or put this together. In fact, I was talking with a real estate investor last month at the New Orleans investment conference. He was talking about rising insurance expenses on his properties, saying that he had one property that just had a insurance premium increase of 10% and he sounded a little disappointed, saying that, well, I can't get 10% more rent, but I've got this 10% higher insurance premium. So you know, he was thinking that he was losing? No, he's not necessarily losing, because in absolute dollar terms, you're charging your tenant multiples more in rent than what you're being charged in insurance. Say that you're charging 2000 bucks in rent on a unit. All right? Well, on a monthly basis, just say that your insurance payment works out to 200 bucks on that unit. All right. Well, with just 5% more rent, that's $2,100 a $100 increase, but if your insurance goes up 10% from 200 to 220 bucks, that's just a $20 increase. So right there in that example, your rent increase is half of your insurance rate increase percentage wise, but in dollar terms, your rent just went up five times as fast as your insurance did, and you are even more cash flow positive than you were previously. So the point is in your monthly profit and loss statement, your cash flow statement, on your property, even your pro forma, keep in mind that your rent amount, that is the biggest monthly number, and being attentive to it can cure so many ills. And when you realize this, this plethora of positives, if you will, it can make a decision to, yeah, do something like replace that old Berber carpet with new vinyl plank flooring, and make that look more attractive to you, and it's gonna look more attractive to your tenant, and you're probably gonna get a higher quality tenant than what you would have placed otherwise. And when you upgrade a unit, not only is your property worth more, but you usually don't pay a higher insurance premium as a result of making that upgrade at all, despite your higher valuation. In fact, sometimes lower rents are subsidized by deferred maintenance, like a leaky faucet or a big crack in a ceiling, all right, now all of these things are sort of hard economic facts when it comes to the relationship between landlord and tenant. Let me then tell you about a, I guess, softer sensibility. Okay, let's get touchy feely for a minute, and that is the words that we use. In fact, those very landlord and tenant words themselves. Back in 2021 there is a first of its kind, legislation that was proposed in Ohio to change references in their state law from the word landlord to housing provider and from the word tenant to resident. Now I think that the word landlord is a rather strange word. I mean, it's kind of weird that we're still using that term today. In fact, in the small town that I grew up in in Appalachia, it was not an affluent area at all, not even close. It was lower middle class. But even as a kid, I knew that my parents owned their home and that all of my friends' parents owned their homes too. It wasn't until I was about age 13 when the Petroski family moved into town, cowdersport, Pennsylvania. They were nice kids. I befriended them, and they soon started using the term landlord. I might have been about 13 until I had even heard the word landlord, and I still remember then that it struck me as a strange sounding term. Now it was all simple, small, single family homes where I grew up, like these 80 year old Victorian homes. No one tried to divide their yard with fences. People didn't lock their doors. It was great. And anyway, the petroskis lived in a single family home that the landlord, Mr. Hosley, had divided up into three separate, walled off units. That's before the term house hacking even existed. But in fact, landlord, it is a futile and perhaps outdated term, and I'd have to agree that, instead of landlord, the term housing provider, you know what better describes you and I's role and the relationship to our tenants or residents. I mean the word landlord that almost sounds like a person is totalitarian or dictatorial, when in fact, most landlords are people like you, smaller and family owned, not land barons. I mean, HUD will tell you that America has 10 to 11 million individual investor landlords, and they manage an average of just two units each. Okay? So hardly dictatorial, not some tyrant that's going around trying to evict everyone. Not despotic. Let me practice a little with you today, is, I'll try to use the term housing provider instead of landlord, as much as I can here see sometimes what happens in society is that the frustration of poverty gets loaded onto housing providers, and that sets up a system of enforcement that assumes that they have an interest in crushing the people that pay them to keep their property businesses running. And the reason that, say, a food provider like a grocer or an entertainment provider like a basketball team owner, you know, they just don't seem to be as unpopular as a housing provider. And one reason for that is because housing is expensive and it's also non discretionary, meaning that everyone has to have housing. So you might consider using the term housing provider more often than landlord, especially around your tenant, if your tenant thinks of you as a housing provider that has to pay. A mortgage and operating expenses every month, rather than a landlord that turns every dollar of rent income into pure profit, which is never true. Well, if they understand that, you're going to be doing better from a tenant relations standpoint, and that's also completely truthful as well. As far as that Ohio State law and changing the word tenant to resident. Yeah, over the years, I know that a lot of people favor that term, including a lot of our turnkey providers at GRE marketplace. I've rode around in cars with them, and they're talking about their market, and they prefer the term resident to tenant. Now, tenant is a feudal term as well. It refers to someone who occupies land from a lord. The more direct term from feudal times is the word vassal. You might remember that from high school, V, A, S, S, a, l, that means a holder of a land that pays allegiance to a lord. Somehow, to me, the word tenant, it just doesn't feel as futile or like it's almost part of a system of oppression, like the word landlord feels. Landlord feels like some king brooding over his serfs. In fact, the word tenant is actually helpful, because if you tell me that a person is a resident, I don't know whether they own or they rent, but if you tell me they're a tenant, I know that they're renting. So tenant helps, because it's more descriptive and tenant does not sound to me like someone is being oppressed, either. But in any case, consider using housing provider rather than landlord. Here in the soft skills department, it can be hard to remember to do that though you're listening to get rich education podcast episode 532 I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, education is in our name, and I've got more learning for you.

Let's discuss something new and learn about what H E i's are that stands for home equity investment, and see if one of them can help you now, HEI's. They're a pretty new way where you can access a chunk of your home's equity without you having to make any ongoing payments. I mean, does that sound amazing, or what? Okay, it does sound amazing. You get a chunk of money out of your property now without making any payments, but there are some downsides to heis, as you might have guessed, all right. Well, first, let's talk about the way that it works. Okay with an hei. What happens is that a portion of your home's equity is given to you in cash, especially given to you by an investment group. Hey, windfall moment sounds amazing, and it gets even better, because you can use the funds however you like. I mean, what could you do with an extra few 10s of 1000s of dollars or hundreds of 1000s of dollars in cash? Further, unlike some of the better known vehicles, like home equity lines of credit and home equity loans, there are truly no payments for you to make with these heis, again, home equity investment, that's what we're talking about here. And better yet, you can access your funds in as little as a few weeks. And, yes, I mean, this sounds amazing, but you have got to be wondering, what is the catch with HEI's, and there are some what is in it for the investor? Is this investment group? Well, when you're ready to settle the investment years down the road, they are going to be paid out their agreed upon share as the percentage of the sale price or the appraised value. All right. So as you balance that and think that through who is an HEI for, then it's good for a borrower like you, in case you don't have great credit, or if you have a high debt to income ratio, is especially great if you are house rich and cash poor. And the reason that I'm talking about heis now is that more people find themselves in that very situation today, house rich and cash poor, and that's because Americans are sitting on all time, record equity levels of more or less 300k today. All right, that is the house rich part and more Americans are cash poor today. That's due to higher inflation. All right. Well, now that you know the basics of what a home equity investment is and what the upsides are, what about the downsides? More downsides of feeling this near term windfall without you having to make any payments? Well, your mortgage company might block you from taking on an HEI because see what you're doing is you're taking on another lien holder. Understand that with. An Hei, you've now got more of a lien than you do a loan, and much like a reverse mortgage, heis can also have high fees, and additionally, down the road, that investor might take a big chunk of the home's appreciation, that stuff should all be laid out in your terms up front. So that's something you ought to be able to see coming. All right. Well, now we're a real estate investing show here, so you're probably wondering, okay, great, and you've been hearing me use the word home, but can you get it on your non owner occupied property? Yes, at times you can get an HEI on rental property, but the terms are probably going to be less advantageous, then they will be on your primary residence. Now you might see he is referred to as a product of financial innovation, which is sort of synonymous with another term, financial engineering. And you know, whenever you see those terms, you typically want to exercise caution. Now that alone doesn't mean that an HEI is wrong for you. And of course, with any investment type, although it's usually not your main decision driver, you're going to want to learn about the tax consequences as well. And you might note that home equity investments are also known as a Home Equity sharing agreement, and although that's a longer term, it is more descriptive, and it makes sense because you and an investor partner are essentially sharing in your home's equity together. Now, as a GRE follower, you're able to understand what an investment like this would mean to you and your financial future. Since the rate of return from home equity is always yes, always zero, with an Hei, now you can separate out some equity, and now you'll have the potential for dollars that can earn a return somewhere, and you're going to enjoy better liquidity as well. But Caveat emptor, buyer beware with heis.

The GRE studio has been mobilized a lot lately, as I am here in Anchorage, Alaska today. And what am I doing here? Well, besides studying the housing market, not any local one, but the national housing market. I have also been skiing this week. Hey, when it comes to subscribing to our newsletter, which I do write myself, you might not have realized something. I don't overwhelm your inbox. When you start subscribing, you'll get a welcome set of emails that send every other day for about 10 days, but that's just in the beginning. After that, my newsletter is only sent about weekly whenever there's something critical in the real estate investing world that you really need to know about. It's also brief. It's important to keep it short because your time is valuable. And have you ever noticed that even the word abbreviation is too long? Our don't with your Daydream newsletter is always less than a five minute read. It's usually less than a three minute read to get the letter just text GRE to 66866, right now, see even opting in to get my crucial letter is brief. Now you can text GRE to 66866, more. Next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

Oh, geez, the national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings, so your bank is getting rich off of you. You've got to earn way more, or else you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to a 10% return and compounds year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And you know how I'd know, because I'm an investor in this myself, earn 10% like me and giari listeners are. Text FAMILY to 66866, to learn about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualified. And chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com that's Ridge lendinggroup.com.

Tarek El Moussa 30:17

What's up? Everyone? This is hgtvs Tarek El Moussa. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 30:34

Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, it's been said that in your life, what you're not changing. You're choosing loads of investors in the 401K or conventional investment plans. They aren't changing the fact that they're only getting their money to work for them. So they're choosing to deny ethically, getting other people's money to work for them, and that's why they have no option other than to work full time until they're old. Well, when you're that savvy borrower now, you're benefiting from both the asset leverage and the inflation profiting, as we know and the way to keep both your leverage high and the inflation profiting on your debt high is to intermittently change the fulcrum on your lever so that you don't have too much equity accumulating in your portfolio. And you also want to be investing in an inflationary environment be a debt DECA millionaire. Remember that term that I introduced to you here a few years ago, if you had ten million in debt at 3% inflation, you're profiting 300k per year just from that alone. Yes, the paradoxically glamorous life of having 10 million in debt, but it's all tied to income properties, so that your tenants make the pay down for you, and inflation pays it down even faster that debt DECA millionaire, he's obviously got to be a pretty creditworthy person in order to get ten million in debt in the first place. Yep, building lasting wealth is not conventional at all. And for the debtor, inflation is therefore your wealth building, friend. It's why, when you see your favorite can of La Columba cold brew coffee, which is a favorite of mine, gosh, it's nice and frothy. If you know, you know, in fact, I'm gonna crack this La Colombe triple draft latte to enjoy after the sh ow there. Did you hear that? No, I don't have any sponsorship with them, but when you see that cold brew price go from $4 to $5 well, that effect makes most people poorer. Some people think that effect makes everyone poor, but it's not making you and I poorer. It's enriching us. When you see consumer price inflation like that, there's a good chance that asset price inflation is occurring as well, and that's why seeing higher prices at grocery stores is probably a subtle signal that you are better off, not worse off. You're better off because you know how to arrange your financial life for inflation rather than being impoverished by it. Congratulations. Let's drink to that with a La Colombe coffee. What you're doing is you are swimming with the river flow, and almost everyone you know is struggling because they chose to swim against the inflationary river flow. See the way that almost everyone that you know goes about earning their income is that they only earn their income once, and they earn it at their job. In an inflationary world, you effectively have to earn your Fiat dollar twice, once when you work for it, and once again, when you invest to beat inflation, otherwise that dollar is just going to evaporate. And that seems so unfair. I mean, why should a surgeon or an athlete, engineer, programmer, accountant, why should those people that are successful in their field and serve society. Why should they have to develop expertise in a second field? Why do they have to do this just to maintain the wealth that they've already built, that they produced out on the free market? Why can't you have a store of value for the future? Inflation is the answer. So they need to develop expertise in a second field, and that's why listening to content just like this is therefore not optional, but it's actually mandatory in this cycle, CPI inflation peaked at 9.1% two and a half years ago, and despite that, has come down quite a bit. It's. A little elevated. It's still not down to the Fed's transparently stated 2% target, and by the way, there is another Fed meeting in two days. If the Fed cuts rates more, bond yields could go higher, which means mortgage rates tend to go higher. Inflation is powerful. A lot of people will tell you that it is the main reason why Jamie Carter wasn't re elected president in 1980 and today they'll tell you why. It's the main reason that it brought down the Biden Harris administration. But see, here's the thing, if you're able to obtain loans in the United States and some other developed countries, understand that you're in a sweet spot, and that sweet spot is a level of inflation that's actually low to moderate by world standards, and not hyper inflationary. All right. Now I know what you might be thinking. You're thinking like, oh, well, hyperinflation would be tremendous for a leveraged real estate investor. Now, why, though, would I say that we don't want hyperinflation? Well, there are countries with a history of hyperinflation, like Turkey, Argentina, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Iran, they have a history of massive currency devaluation. Let's see what happens then is that financing becomes almost non existent in those places. When that happens, I mean history over hunches. History shows us that in places like that, forget about getting home mortgages, investor loans, a credit card, consumer debt, small business loans, unless maybe a usurious interest rates. If the US had a history of hyperinflation or even sustained bouts of really high inflation, then you know what cooperation between borrowers and lenders becomes nearly impossible. Even those governments of those countries, they have trouble borrowing money, except maybe at maturities of a few months. And you know, I always like to make a borrowing lending example with you and your friend. Okay, you don't want to loan your friend $1,000 for a year in hyperinflation, because if the inflation rate were 1,000% then, after a year, the $1,000 that your friend would pay you back, well, that's only $100 worth of purchasing power. Now, all right, that's why, if the US had one bout of hyperinflation, you know, maybe that would be good, because it would seriously wipe out all of your debts one time. If there became a history of that, though, then you might not get access to loans at all. I mean, who would be crazy enough to finance your growing real estate portfolio in hyperinflation? So the fact that globally, the US has low to moderate inflation levels. I mean, that can be a good thing, that inflation is most of the time, a more surreptitious force. It largely went without notice until the pandemic made it flare up and made that LA Columbia cold brew coffee go up, and made property prices and rents go up all while you're fixed. Mortgage payments stayed the same, totally sheltered from the inflation. All right. Well, if my solution to beat inflation by taking on debt and thinking about it that way, if that's not iconoclastic enough, I've got a different strategy for beating inflation, and I think that I did quickly mention this here about a year ago when Doug Casey was our guest on the show.

But yes, I do have another strategy for beating inflation, and it is controversial. It is almost blasphemy to say this out loud on any finance related show this inflation beating strategy, it's guaranteed to improve your quality of life, okay, no speculation here. A guarantee of improving your quality of life is so simple, anyone can easily do it. In fact, you even have companies competing with other companies to get you to do this, and the answer is to spend your money. Yes, I said it out loud. It guarantees that you'll improve your life. It's simple to do. Various counterparties are competing all over the place with each other. They're falling all over each other every single day to try to get you to do this well, as long as you've invested well first and you have ample liquidity by having a healthy relationship with spending there if that crew. Is to the Spanish Riviera in Majorca, is going to cost you $10,000 this year, but it'll be $11,000 next year. Then spend the money today and beat inflation. Yes, I said it. Spend some of your money if you've been listening to this show and following the guidance here, yes, you can afford to do it. I mean, what is money for anyway? And sadly, some like conventional finance professionals, they are reluctant to tell you to spend your money because they're compensated by the percent of your assets that they hold under management. Inflation makes borrowing and spending, then two irresponsible sounding things, borrowing and spending make complete sense when you do it right, like income properties tied to fixed rate loans.

Hey, why? I've got some cool announcements to share with you now and in future months here on the show, I've got a big collaboration coming up with long time friend of GRE here, Robert Helms of the real estate guys and I together. You'll learn more about that in the future. But first coming up this Saturday, the 21st at 3pm Eastern, over on YouTube, I am going to reveal GRE 's national home price appreciation forecast. So yes, to the nearest percent, I'll tell you exactly how much home price appreciation that you will get, an exact number, how much to expect in the US next year. Or, Hey, maybe I think that home prices will make a rare fall next year, what you're going to get that number, if that's what I forecast, you can go to our get rich education YouTube channel anytime here and make sure that you set a notification so that you are informed again. That's Saturday the 21st at 3pm eastern over on our get rich education YouTube channel, I expect that that information is going to benefit you.

Hey, if you appreciate the show here, do you think that you could help me out in just one small way? Call it my Christmas gift request. There's just one item on my Christmas list with you, and it should only take a couple minutes of your time leave a podcast rating and review for the show on Apple podcasts or Spotify. The rating is the five star thing. The review is a few sentences about what you get out of the show here. I would really appreciate the, I suppose, gift from you, and I will read your review myself too, if you don't know how to do it right inside those listener apps. Just open up a browser tab and search how to leave an apple podcast review or Spotify podcast review, or whatever platform you prefer to listen on. Yeah, it would feel like a little Christmas gift to me after all these months and years of listening, go ahead and provide me with some feedback. Tell me what you think, and thanks so much. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Dolf Deroos 43:10

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 43:38

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get rich, education.com
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531: How to Replace Your Job with Rent Income in Just 3 Years
9 dec· Get Rich Education
From railroad conductor to becoming a successful real estate investor and replacing his day job in just 3 years. On today’s episode, Keith chats with one of our very own GRE listeners, Grant Francke, about what he did to build his portfolio to quit his steady union job.

Hear about the importance of having a clear "why" for investing and setting specific goals.

We discuss the concept of inflation profiting on debt and how it contributes to wealth building

Leveraging cash-out refinances and 1031 exchanges as a strategy to scale up and diversify.

Resources:

Check out Grant Francke’s book “The Unlikely Investor” here.

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/531

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GRE Investment Coach, start here:

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, it's a highly relatable show today because you're going to meet a fellow GRE listener and real estate investor like you that use the principles of this show to build wealth, and he reached real estate financial freedom even faster than I did today on get rich education.

Mid south home buyers, I mean, they're total pros, with over two decades as the nation's highest rated turnkey provider, their empathetic property managers use your ROI as their North Star. So it's no wonder that smart investors just keep lining up to get their completely renovated income properties like it's the newest iPhone. They're headquartered in Memphis and have globally attractive cash flows, an A plus rating with a better business bureau and now over 5000 houses renovated. There's zero markup on maintenance. Let that sink in, and they average a 98.9% occupancy rate, while their average renter stays more than three and a half years. Every home they offer has brand new components, a bumper to bumper, one year warranty, new 30 year roofs, and wait for it, a high quality renter. Remember that part and in an astounding price range, 100 to 180k I've personally toured their office and their properties in person in Memphis, get to know Mid South. Enjoy cash flow from day one, start yourself right now at mid south homebuyers.com that's mid south homebuyers.com

Keith Weinhold

when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's a replete with paywalls, and you get pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers, ugh. And no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. That's why this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it is to the point to get it. It couldn't be more simple. Just type up a text message with the letters G, R, E in the body and send it to the phone number, 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. Subscribe to my Don't quit your Daydream newsletter, and your mind will be wired for wealth. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 2:57

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 3:13

Welcome to GRE from Washington Crossing Pennsylvania to cross City Florida and across one area, nations worldwide, you're listening to one of America's longest running and most listened to real estate shows. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to get rich education here for you every single Monday, every week, without fail. This is the voice of real estate investing Since 2014 you know, being successful in real estate such that you can quit your job when you're young enough to enjoy it is counter cultural, even kind of Bohemian. I mean, just imagine telling yourself this or saying this to somebody else. First, I had a lot of debt, then my situation got even better, because we had a surge of high inflation, and it's all making me rich. To that, most conventional financial wisdom would reply like, Dude, are you nuts? Maybe. But I'll tell you what, I'm not normal. I wouldn't want to be normal. That's a real pejorative, right there. Normalcy is, like, slanderous. Yep, you gotta get iconoclastic. Well, it's all grounded in fundamentals. Yep, inflation dilutes your debt for you, and it's almost perfectly predictable that that's gonna happen too by following principles just like that aligned with GRE 's inflation triple crown, and that real estate pays five ways. The guest that you'll meet today, yeah, he did reach financial freedom faster than I did. You're gonna hear about how he did it. It's like I've said on the show here before. I am divulging to you the information that I wish I had when I started out, because if I had this when I began, I would have reached financial freedom sooner. You know, after I bought my first ever income property, that fourplex, I didn't buy my next investment property for almost five years. Okay, it was not a fast timeline for me, but after about four years from buying that seminal first property, I started analyzing what it was doing for me, and I well, not only wanted to buy more, but I would soon learn that really the lessons I extracted from that property, I ended up articulating that in ways that no one else that I know of has. Today's listener guest is from a Midwestern MSA of 343,000 people that we haven't discussed on the show before, at least in any detail. And that's also the market that he invests in. Let's meet him.

Keith Weinhold 6:05

From time to time, we like to have a GRE listener on the show to learn about how the show has changed their life, and also discover you know just what you're out there doing as a real estate investor. And this is because other listeners can find these episodes so relatable. Today's listener guest is from Nebraska, and he listened to GRE in the commute to and from his job for years back when he still had one, because he's a success story. Since he has replaced his day job income with rental properties in just three years, which is a remarkably fast timeline, and now he's got more time freedom for his passions or for his family and kids. So we're gonna learn about how he did that. Hey, welcome to the show. GRE listener GrantFrancke, Thanks, Keith. Honored to be here. Frankie is spelled F, R, a, n, C, K, E, and Grant, this is great that you've been on this fast timeline to produce financial freedom. But before we talk about that, let's back up. Tell us about your beginning like your family situation in your now, I guess former job.

Grant Francke 7:09

great question. So I started it out as a conductor for BNSF Railways. So I was a trained conductor. I started out there pretty much right out of high school. It's a great job if you don't have any family or kids because you're gone all the time you work crazy hours. Yeah. So it was great before I was married, but then I got married, I was like, I don't really love this as much. And then once we had our two kids, I was like, I've got to find something else that can get me that time, freedom to spend more time with them. And stumbled on real estate and started going that route.

Keith Weinhold 7:40

Some people don't have that mindset. They justify working overtime because, well, I'm away from my kids, but I'm working for them, but with financial freedom, you really can have both a time for your children when you want it and the income that you desire a railroad conductor. So I believe that's different from a railroad engineer, right? The railroad engineer is the person that kind of drives the train and changes the speed in the conductor. They're the one that's sort of making sure that the staff and the cargo and the passengers are taken care of. Is that what a railroad conductor does?

Grant Francke 8:12

Yep. So we only did cargo freight, so I was in charge of, like, how fast we could go, what was all in the train, talking to the dispatcher and making sure we're going the right directions and and taking the right sightings, and then if anything broke down on the train, we'd have to go back and take care of it. But yes, the engineer is the one who he physically drives a train, and we're kind of like the co pilot.

Keith Weinhold 8:32

You talked about how you were away, and it takes an awful lot of hours. You based there in Nebraska, geographically, what kind of routes Did you run?

Grant Francke 8:41

It's 300 miles from Lincoln. So I was based out of Lincoln Nebraska. So it's about 300 miles, yeah, so we did to Kansas City, cook Nebraska, some places out in Iowa, up north, to Sioux City. And those trips ranged from 36 to 48 hours, round trip for us to be gone and back.

Keith Weinhold 8:58

making the economy run there, but this was, you know, rather time consuming, obviously pretty disruptive to one schedule there when you're working long shifts or away for these long periods of time. So okay, it sounds like you got the idea that you wanted something where you could control your time better. There are so many ways to produce income in an informal sense, there's entrepreneurship, which might be something like you could have launched your own app or started a donut shop. Then there's something more passive when it comes to investing. I mean, most people that are working at a job, they even think, Oh, hey, I have my investing bucket covered because I invest through my employer in 401k and that's good enough. But somehow you must have had this notion in you that this wasn't good enough. So tell us about how and why real estate.

Grant Francke 9:42

I've always been like, somewhat handy. So I was gonna go and just be a GC or a handyman. I was Googling around, and I found a post that said that the best customers for handymen are landlords, because they keep you busy and they always got work. I was like, Oh, that's great idea. So I stumbled upon a podcast. Where it was a handyman who became a landlord, he recommended a book on there called Rich Dad, Poor Dad. So I went and got that book, and then my life was changed after that.

Keith Weinhold 10:11

It's amazing how that little purple book influences so many of us. Okay, so that sort of opened you up to the concept of real estate investing and Rich Dad content is terrific. A lot of times, though, it doesn't really get down into the nuts and bolts too much. So just in your educational journey, where did you progress from the rich dad school of thought?

Grant Francke 10:30

Yeah, so Rich Dad, Poor Dad kind of taught me about that not spending your giving your time for money is creating that loop of the money. So after that, you know, I started off just listening to all the podcasts. You know, I'd listen to your podcast, bigger pockets, Kathy Fettke, I'd listen to all those just on repeat, reading all the books that I could get my hands on. Because I was just once, I started learning about real estate. And it did scratch that entrepreneurial bug that I did have. It kind of gave me the both of the passive income and being able to build a business for myself as well. So I just went through all the education that I possibly could, podcasts, books, you name it. I was obsessed with it.

Keith Weinhold 11:08

Yeah, all right. Well, it's all about doing the right thing before you do things right, like we say here on the show. All right. So it sounds like you were confident that you were doing the right thing. You were in real estate. Tell us about the start, especially buying that first property. What was that like?

Grant Francke 11:25

Yeah, it was nerve wracking, right? It was a small, up down duplex in Lincoln, Nebraska. It's really one of my only properties I've actually gotten that's been on the market on the MLS. Just got an agent went and bought it and it was a good deal, like it cash flowed. Well, I took it down. I was managing it myself, and I still do manage my portfolio myself. I do vividly remember, like sitting in the living room of that doing my showings, and I just did after three or four showings, I couldn't get it rented, and I was listening to one of your podcasts, and you were talking about the different ways that real estate pays you, besides the income, and that really kept me motivated. This is a long term journey. This isn't a short term get rich quick thing. You know, by getting a tenant in there, it might take a month, but then they're going to pay down your note, you're going to get the tax benefits, you're going to get all those different items Flowing into you from real estate. So I remember that vividly from that first deal is listening to Keith in the living room.

Keith Weinhold 12:16

Yeah, being a profiteer in real estate, it's a little, maybe just a little like the iceberg analogy. Maybe only the top 20% of the iceberg is visible in what you see as profit. You're thinking about monthly income, and maybe you're thinking about appreciation. You don't see everything else below the iceberg that's underwater, I should say rather, like the inflation profiting on the debt and the loan amortization in the great basket of tax benefits, you sent me a paper letter earlier this year. One thing you wrote about is how the show influenced you, because you vividly remember sitting on the floor of your first ever vacant rental unit. So presumably it was in this Nebraska duplex, one of those units we're talking about here in this the show kept you motivated. You thought you were failing because you didn't get the unit rented after the first three showings, which I think we know now is sort of funny. That's really normal, even in a good rental market. You know, it could take more showings than three until you get the right match between a tenant that wants the unit and a tenant you'd accept. I mean, the tenant themselves, they have to accept all sorts of things. Uh, maybe they don't like the parking situation. Your unit layout has to be right. In my first ever property, which, as you know, was a four Plex, one problem I had is some tenants just didn't like the fact that the only bathroom in these four Plex units was upstairs. And then it's funny, as soon as you get the showing, say it's the sixth showing that you get it rented out, the problem's over. It's solved. You're back to 100% occupancy. And you wonder why you ever thought you had a problem. That's just sort of how that goes.

Grant Francke 13:43

Yeah, hindsight is always 2020. It's really stressful in the moment, but just keeping in mind that the different ways it pays you the different avenues of income that come from it, and that's even something like it was conceptually, I understood it, but it really didn't take effect for me till it was like five, six years down the road, and you go, look at your loan balance, and you look at what the inflation's done, you're like, well, that's a substantial amount of money that you've made just passively getting your tenants to pay down your debt.

Keith Weinhold 14:09

Yeah, some don't even think about the fact that your tenant is paying down your principal for you, an advantage that homeowners don't have, because homeowners, they just have $1 that goes from their cash pocket over to their equity pocket every month. But in your rental property, your tenant is doing that for you, and then inflation is, in almost all cases, paying down your loan silently, even faster than what that tenant is doing for you.

Grant Francke 14:31

It's amazing concept. Once you can can, can wrap your head around it

Keith Weinhold 14:35

all right, so you started with this duplex in your local area, Nebraska. Is there anything else to say about that first property, or is it more about the growth from there? That's more, yeah, it was

Grant Francke 14:46

the growth from there. That one was just like I said, kind of a base hit, and then we started scaling up after that. So my next purchase was another duplex, and I happened to find it on Craigslist, back when that was a thing, that you could find properties on Craigslist, and it was actually a retired engineer, rare. Order that was selling a duplex. I was like, Oh, this is great. We hit it off really well. Had a great transaction. I closed on time. I did what I said I was going to do, and then I was looking around on the assessor's website, and he had five more single family houses that were clearly rentals. I told him at the closing table. I'm like, Hey, if you ever want to sell those rentals, just let me know. You know, I'd love to scale our portfolio up. He ended up offering to sell or finance me those five properties with a minimum down payment. Well, just because we had just a great relationship, I showed up, I did what I said I was going to do, we ended up getting seven properties from that guy.

Keith Weinhold 15:33

Wow, that is huge, a way to scale up fast. So just with your behavior, your work ethic, the fact that you did what you said you were gonna do, you know, that engendered some sort of interest in the other party to offer you, seller financing. What percent down did you put on that next batch of properties?

Grant Francke 15:50

We did 10% down, great, and we had 5% interest on it, and we had a balloon payment due in, I think it was seven years so funny story about that. He sold all his rental properties. He was going to Florida to retire and just relax and and be a retired guy. He called me about two and a half years later. He's like, Hey, I still have the bug. I found a property I want to buy. Is there any way you could refinance the seller financing and close out my notes so I can use that capital to buy something? I was like, Yeah, Larry, I get it. Yeah. Let me see. I'll talk to the bank and see what I can do. But in those two years, I had done enough improvements in those properties and raised the rents, took care of them. When I went to refinance those five properties, I was able to pay two of them off, so I only had a loan on three and pay him back on the proceeds. So throughout that transaction, I pretty much had two properties free and clear, and then three houses on 30 year notes from Fannie and Freddie.

Keith Weinhold 16:44

How did you come up for the down payments with all this? Was this something you were able to do with income from the job as a railroad conductor?

Grant Francke 16:52

Well, that refinance was more like a burr model, so I was able to do all that with the equity inside that property. So those five single families that are refinanced. Was just all the equity inside those properties. So I didn't have to put any more money out. It was just the equity that was able to pay off the other two. And then I had the three on the notes, from appreciation, from appreciation, and, yeah, forced appreciation. So I was fixing up the units, raising the rents, you know, changing out flooring, redoing bathrooms, doing all that myself while I was still at my w2 job.

Keith Weinhold 17:21

Okay, really getting hands on, because you do have this bent of sort of a GC or a handyman, something that I personally didn't have, maybe this would have accelerated my wealth building faster had I done that. You're realizing that a source, you know, it doesn't have to be your own money from your own job. When you've got leverage, and you had 10 to one leverage on these, I believe it was what five single family homes that you had added seller financing that really multiplies you wealth substantially faster compound leverage, rather than compound interest. But a lot of people just let that equity die in their properties, rather than pulling it out a tax free event through a cash out refinance and moving it along.

Grant Francke 18:03

Yep. So we kept that process on. We buy a duplex that was needs some repairs. Nothing like crazy rundown, but you fix it up over 6,12, months, you do a refinance, and you just keep that ball rolling. And it makes the whole process really easy.

Keith Weinhold 18:15

I know that you are pretty open to discussing your assets, discussing your unit mix. So tell us about more of that expansion. What you brought it up to, and the exciting time when you've replaced your salary because you had enough income from the units.

Grant Francke 18:31

Yeah, so we would just keep that snowball method going of refinancing those two paid off properties we had, we had a line of credit against those as well, if we needed that for a down payment, or if we wanted to pay cash for something, we could use that leverage, that money from the bank and buy the property, do the refinance at the end, and pay it all back. And, you know, be out of pocket with minimal cash out of pocket for us. We just kind of kept that process going. And then once we had about 30 units, I would say so, about three years. So I started buying in 16, and then in September of 2019 is when I resigned from BNSF Railway and went full time.

Keith Weinhold 19:06

That's a great timeline. You mentioned some paid off properties there. And you know how I'm the proponent of leverage in good debt in all of them. But really you talked about despite the fact that you had, I think, two paid off properties, it sounds like single family homes. Early on, you were still able to leverage the fact that they were paid off as collateral for getting more loans. So you are still using those as other people's money despite the fact that they were paid off.

Grant Francke 19:31

Absolutely we still use it to this day. That's if we need a down payment, if we need a chunk of cash. That's where we go to is grab those from that line of credit.

Keith Weinhold 19:39

Talk to us more about sort of the sourcing of the financing. There were you getting together with some local banks in order to get good terms where you can collateralize some of your existing portfolios assets?

Grant Francke 19:52

So we used to use a small community bank here in Nebraska. I started with them, probably 2018 and I've been with them since you just create a really good relation. With them. They trust me. They know what I'm doing. They know if I bring them a deal like I'm not hiding anything, I'm not showing them certain numbers, it looks better like they trust what I'm doing. I trust that they're going to take care of me as well. It's always good to have a few in their back pocket. But if you have a really good relationship with one small community bank, it can take you pretty far.

Keith Weinhold1 20:18

Tell us about how you built that relationship with the community bank. I think a lot of people hear about how to do that. This doesn't mean going bowling with a banker and having to be your buddy for watching the NFL on the weekend. So I guess, how do you demonstrate that you're a capable business person to a local bank in order to get good treatment?

Grant Francke 20:37

That's a great question. So my first couple deals, I created a full deal pitch deck sheet that I brought in in a laminated folder of pictures, timelines, my past history of what I've done. So I started off on the right foot of showing them that I was very professional. And then the same thing, like with Larry, with the seller finance properties, I showed up. I did what I said I was going to do. I didn't close late. I always was on time. I was on time for my meetings. I was on time for my closings, just staying top of mind with them too. So if I didn't have a deal going on, I'd stop in when I was depositing some laundry change and just chat with my banker or chat with the check guy, and just make sure I stay top of mind with them.

Keith Weinhold 21:14

Yeah, it's a little bit like how people classically think about as interviewing for a job. It sort of sounds like you took a page out of that book, and you're sort of interviewing for a loan, if you will, tell us about your portfolio size now, and kind of what that asset mix is like.

Grant Francke 21:30

yeah, so we're up to about 120 units now, all in the Lincoln Nebraska area, all multi family, small, multi family. We saw those single family houses we hold on to. But otherwise it ranges from duplexes, four plexes, some six, eight units are mixed in there as well. So we're still just buying, like, just boring cash flowing deals. That's one thing I always say is, like, I just buy boring real estate. I don't want anything super stressful or super crazy, like, I'm not infilling to build ADUs. I'm just buying boring cash flowing rental properties.

Keith Weinhold 22:02

It really can be pretty boring. Real estate is really slow moving. Yeah, it's almost like the more boring the area of the nation that you invest in, the more likely that it's not a trendy place. And, you know, people are wearing Carhartt rather than Lulu Lemon. It's almost like that's an indicator of what a good market is we're talking with Grant Francke. He's a GRE listener. He's telling us how he built his portfolio from being a railroad conductor to going ahead and doing this on the side and leaving his day job. When we come back, we're going to talk about, was he nervous and like just what level did he have to get to before he had the confidence to quit his job and replace his salary. You're listening. To get rich, education more. We come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold 22:02

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Caeli Ridge 24:35

this is Ridge lending group's president, Caeli Ridge listen To get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and remember, don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 24:55

Welcome back to get rich education. It's one of my favorite types of episodes because we're talking about a GRE listener, much like you, with what you can do, where he started, what the architecture of his portfolio building was, and a big part of that is you don't really want to be debt free in real estate. You want to be financially free. You want to build enough income in order to replace the income from your day job. I want to talk about that part grant replacing your salary. That sounds really good in concept, we know that's what you need to do. When I personally was at that point, I still remember how scared I was to walk out from my cubicle where I was employed at a State Department of Transportation and walk across the hall and tell my boss's boss, Therese, that I'm giving my two weeks notice. I've got to admit, I was still scared. My heart's still racing a little bit just bringing it up and talking about it. So why don't you tell us about at what point you replaced your salary?

Grant Francke 25:55

My wife's an accountant. She's really good at like, Excel spreadsheets, so we made an Excel spreadsheet that factored in the tax benefits of real estate that I would get as a full time real estate investor. What my income was. I went to the lowest paying job at the railroad just to see if we could live off of that paycheck. So once we hit that cash flow number, which was, it wasn't a great big number, it was like 4800 a month or something, once we hit that number, she said, All right, I think we can do it. We're good to go. So I went in, and I only had one of my buddies at the railroad that knew I was going to resign that day. I was going to go in and resign, then clean out my locker. I got there, it was like, well, I'll just clean my locker out first and then make sure this is exactly what I want to do. I got my locker cleaned out. Everything was in my truck, and I walked in, and it was the most terrifying thing that I've ever done, you're walking away from a great union job with a heck of a pension that I've been there for at that time, 13 years, you know. So I had some seniority built up. I just went back to like my family again and thinking about all the times I'm going to spend with my kids, with my wife, the trips we'll be able to take, the memories we're going to be able to make, and the hard work that I put in those first three years of just grinding doing all the work myself, managing all the properties myself, that gave me that push. I was like, No, I can do this. These numbers make sense. The math adds up, and we're going to make it work. That's

Keith Weinhold 27:13

great. And by the way, I also walked away from a union job with the pension guaranteed retirement benefits, and they were guaranteed in the state's constitution because I had a state government job, so that pension wasn't going to go away, and I just went ahead and walked away from all that. Yeah, it certainly is a scary thing. It takes a certain level of confidence in order to go ahead and quit your job. But here's what I think, Confidence comes on the person that you made yourself be to on the side, build this portfolio and become the type of person that can demonstrate to a local bank that you're credit worthy and that you're an ethical operator. That's sort of a skill set that you build, such that if something went wrong and you had to go get a job again, you just sort of have a skill set where you know you could get another job. That's the confidence to quit.

Grant Francke 28:05

Yeah, once I had that confidence, built up and confidence in myself, you're kind of trained as even a man, just to not be proud, you know what I mean. But once I was proud of myself and what I built, it gave you that confidence, that I could walk in and say, No, I can do this on my own. I don't need this job. I'm done with it.

Keith Weinhold 28:20

Right to not need an employer. So not only walking away from a union and pension benefits and a paycheck, you're also walking away from paid vacation days and paid holidays. But yeah, I mean, part of that confidence is like, I know that I can, you know, furnish this myself. I'm not dependent. I don't need someone else. And that's really that feeling of freedom.

Grant Francke 28:42

Yep, absolutely, it's a very freeing feeling.

Keith Weinhold 28:45

On this show, a lot of investors start out with single family homes and part of that scaling process, and I really help encourage, hey, the rate of return from home equity is always zero on doing a cash out refinance, or a 1031 exchange, and at some point, say, maybe your single family homes, you probably have a few that are less desirable than others. Maybe you have a few single family homes in your rental portfolio that have higher interest rates. You just have a few where you just can't seem to keep them occupied very long. They're the ones that are ripe for doing a 1031 exchange or a cash out refinance. Why don't you talk more about sort of those next sets of properties where you might relinquish a couple single family homes and get into some of those properties, a four Plex, a six Plex, an eight Plex, a 10 Plex, and just sort of some of the differences in managing, since you're still self managing, is that right?

Grant Francke 29:37

Yeah, we just actually completed our first 1031 exchange about two months ago. Great. Oh, yeah. So we actually sold two duplexes. So we sold four units and bought 17 in the 1031 exchange. The cash flow is going to be as we buy them right now. We're getting a little bit better cash flow. But you know, the ability to scale that and the management side, for me is much easier. If I would rather manage 117 unit than 17 single families, spread out all the way around. I only have one lawn to work worry about, totally on one roof. I have one sewer system to worry about. It seems scary in the beginning, but now that why I'm at where I'm at, I would much rather take down a 10 Plex than 10 single family houses.

Keith Weinhold 30:19

100%. oftentimes single family homes, you know, they tend to be scattered. They're probably not all going to be in the same development that introduces management difficulties. Of course, I circumvent that because I totally use professional management for all of my properties. So that's really not problem or a hold up for me, where it sure would be with you. Yeah, there really is that mental leap. I've owned a few properties that have been 10 plexes or in that area, and there are just things to do with there that we know we don't need to deal with in single family homes or duplexes, there might be one central communal laundry room that you have to manage. And you know, how are you going to keep that clean? I had one particular eight Plex building while the kids just had their bicycles parked here and there in the front yard, and it looked junky. And my property manager built a screen, just like a fence, where you had to keep your bicycles behind there, and that really increased the curb appeal of the place. If that's a single family home, you don't really care so much about that grant. I once had an 11 unit building. It had four units on the top floor, four units on the middle floor and three units on the bottom floor. There was a laundry room where the fourth would have been. So we had 11 families live there, and there were about 14 parking spots for this 11 Plex building. And figuring out who was going to park where was a real mess. Some people had more than one car. Some people had seniority, so they felt like they should have gotten some of the spots we had the building next door where people tried to park at our 14 spots. That was such a mess. I told my property manager to you, go figure it out. You go assign the spot. So my point is, there are a whole bunch of dynamics when you kind of get into this 10 or so unit area that you just don't have with rental, single family homes.

Grant Francke 31:58

Absolutely. Yeah, I've had to have many conversations with people telling them I manage properties, not parking. I don't just figure it out be adults. I don't want to hear about your parking dilemmas, which I get too. You know, you also have, you have noise complaints, and you want to make sure everybody's being respectful of their neighbors when you get into those bigger buildings. So there are definitely pros and cons. But boy, if I, if I could have a 10 single families on the same street, that would be, you know, ideal management wise, that would be a lot easier, but it's just tough to get everything together.

Keith Weinhold 32:24

Is there any other guidance you can give with scaling up? Because a lot of people just continue to let so much equity accumulate in any one property, and they're not scaling up, you're sort of leaving some meat on the bone. There any other strategic things one can think through?

Grant Francke 32:38

Just take advantage of your cash out refinances when you can, I'm a proponent of leverage, but not over leveraged to where your negative cash flow on it, if you can cash out, refinance, pull your equity out, and still be making some money off of it, that's really going to allow you to scale over time, a lot larger than just holding that one duplex and waiting for it to give you that cash flow, that financial freedom. You really got to take that equity out, spread it out over multiple properties, and then watch them all scale up at the same time.

Keith Weinhold 33:05

There's probably less risk when one does that. People are averse to making that move because they think about how they're taking on more debt. But the more you cash out and scatter it into more properties, you've got more diversification geographically, if you want to. And really, I think the mindset that helps people with this is, when you do a cash out refinance, you didn't lose any equity. You really transferred some of your equity.

Grant Francke 33:30

yep, tax free too, which is something you harp on, like it's tax free money. You get to walk away and not pay taxes on it.

Keith Weinhold 33:38

It's really amazing. All right, well, so you have a substantial portfolio of about 120 units in is it all in and around Lincoln Nebraska?

Grant Francke 33:47

Yep, Lincoln Nebraska and a couple small communities around there, some more college type towns that have industries in them as well. But all the Lincoln Nebraska area.

Keith Weinhold 33:55

we don't talk about Lincoln Nebraska here on the show very often. What kind of personality does the market have? Whether that's, you know, like you mentioned, is there a preponderance of student housing? Are there particular economic sectors that really help float and drive that market? Tell us about Lincoln as a real estate investment market.

Grant Francke 34:13

Like I said, with boring real estate, it's a great boring real estate town. We've got a couple universities in Lincoln. It's a big ag area, obviously, so surrounded by the the ag industry. But it's also got some great tech jobs that are coming in. It's just a very steady it doesn't have a lot of the ups and downs. You know, 2008 was obviously tough with everybody, but there wasn't this massive housing correction here. We're just kind of slow and steady, which is that's kind of my pace.

Keith Weinhold 34:39

typical of what I call a stable market, where, conversely, you tend to have the volatile markets that are on the coast. I'm going to imagine in 2008 it didn't go down in value nearly as much as markets, but in the big housing price run up in 2021, I'm going to guess you got some really nice appreciation, but probably not as much as a lot of the other markets as well.

Grant Francke 34:58

Yeah. Absolutely that depreciation, then that inflation run up, was pretty substantial. But, yeah, it's just a really boring real estate market that just steady. There's some great rentals. There's a lot of people that move into, move into town, from Lincoln, from outside, that go to school or start out here, and then they go somewhere else. So it's great town.

Keith Weinhold 35:16

What about some other things in the character of the market? What are property taxes, like one or 1.2% per year based on the value of the property. That's about a national average. How does Lincoln look that way?

Grant Francke 35:29

Yeah, it's a little bit higher. Right now, there's been some fighting in our legislature about how they're trying to fix that, because we have a really fairly good budget in Nebraska tax wise. So they're fighting to get us some relief now, but it's a little bit, I guess, like 1.3 or 1.4 right now in Nebraska.

Keith Weinhold 35:43

a little higher than the national average. But really, the more important metric, one I talk about a lot, because it's so simple, is approximately, let's say, for a rental, single family home, is what is the ratio of the rent income per month to the purchase price?

Grant Francke 36:00

Yeah, it's tough to find those 1% deals anymore. Those are tougher to come by. I think if you're buying a single family right now, you're probably going to be, at that .75% of the income to the property. If you get into multifamily. We're still finding deals that are decent around that 1%

Keith Weinhold 36:15

so with the 710, of 1% rent to price ratio as an example, on a $200,000 purchase price property, that would be a rent of $1,400 so you can find something like

Grant Francke 36:28

that. It sounds like that's usually about, yeah, for single family, I think that's what we're seeing. But like I said, multi family, we're getting pretty close to that 1% still with with some added rent.

Keith Weinhold 36:37

Do you think about branching into other markets? Like a lot of our investors do, not everyone lives in an investor advantage market like Lincoln, but even those that do say, if they live in a Columbus, Ohio or in Indianapolis, Indiana, they might want to add a couple markets for diversification, maybe Metro in Alabama and another one in Florida. Do you plan to continue to grow right there, since you have these great local relationships with local banks.

Grant Francke 37:03

I mean, it'd be tough. There is a couple of markets we've looked at, like San Antonio, I really like that one. And then Louisville, Kentucky. I've been there a few times, and it's just a great town. And I think there's some really good industry down there too. So those are the two that would be on my list. I haven't taken a massive action on getting down there yet, but if I were, that's probably be where I go.

Keith Weinhold 37:21

Of course, San Antonio is going to have those higher property taxes, but I just visited San Antonio last month. They really look to be the beneficiary of this near shoring movement, with more companies relocating to Mexico, this is great. We talked about how you grew your portfolio. Are there any other strategies overall that you employ any mindsets that you make actionable, either that you learned about on this show, or just anything else that you do in there grant your keys to success, your formula.

Grant Francke 37:49

The big thing for me is like, my why? Like, why did I do this? And why was I doing it that was huge for me in the beginning, and my, why was my wife and kids like? I wanted to spend more time with them. So when you know your why, like, all these tough things that happen, because, like, you know pipes are going to break, tenants are going to be tenants, and things are going to go wrong. So if you know your why and why you're doing that, it makes it so much more easy to get through those difficult times. So it's really a mindset thing, which is kind of odd thing to say, but it's a mindset thing, because things are gonna go wrong, so you gotta have a strong why behind you.

Keith Weinhold 38:22

Did you write down your why?

Grant Francke 38:24

I did? Yes, I'm big in goal setting as well, so I write goals and like, every year and then quarterly as well. So writing down my why and knowing that, it helped me when I was working on those properties and driving back and forth, listening to get rich education, just knowing why I was doing this, it made it a lot easier.

Keith Weinhold 38:42

Yeah, there's something about writing it down. I've even learned that using blue ink on yellow paper, somehow there is something about doing that in particular that really helps create this imprint in your mind. But however you do it, yeah, writing it down is so important, and that way this goal doesn't become a morphous or malleable when you do that.

Grant Francke 39:03

yeah, it sets it in stone. You can look at it. It's actually physically there. It's not something just conjestually in your head. It's actually something that's taken place.

Keith Weinhold 39:10

You have had such success. Gosh, congratulations on that, such that you even created a resource. But before I ask you about that, is there just any last thing that you'd like to talk about in your journey overall, whether that's goal setting and having a good why, or any GRE concepts, or just really anything else that's led to your success, to have 120 units.

Grant Francke 39:32

it really goes back to, like I said, my why, and then the education. So I do want to thank you again, like, for all the podcasts and and all the information you put out. It was uh very, impactful on me as I was learning the reason that why GRE always spoke well to me is like you would talk about conjectural things, about real estate and cash flow and all this, but it was also the larger economic process of how things worked, how things mixed together. So having that in my brain too and in my back pocket really gave. Me the confidence to attack these things when inflation started happening. I'm like, Oh, that was nothing I ever thought about. But I've heard you talk about it for hours and hours on the end. So I'm like, I understand how this works now, and I know how I'm positioned. I can use it to my advantage as well. So a lot of those things helped me out scaling up and just taking all those resources that we got from the show.

Keith Weinhold 40:17

Yeah, we're actually beneficiaries of inflation here, which is certainly pretty counter cultural. With your success, you put together a resource, and I definitely want you to share it with our audience, because this is something I really think they can benefit from, because they can relate to your story. I'm pretty confident.

Grant Francke 40:35

appreciate it. Yeah, so I wrote a book. It's called the unlikely investor. It's available on Amazon, but it's just a book that I took, kind of my story from a w2 employee to scaling up to where I am. Now, some of those tips and tricks in there. I have maybe plagiarized some stuff from Keith's podcast, and we talked about some the different pillars of wealth that you get from real estate. But it really just kind of goes into the mindset part too, of finding your why, goal setting, and then the basics of real estate investing on up through scaling up to a decent sized portfolio.

Keith Weinhold 41:07

Oh, I know, in every instance you credited me in the book.

Grant Francke 41:11

I do. I did, yeah.

Keith Weinhold 41:13

I really don't care. It's more about, you know, people getting the information, rather than me getting any credit for that. That's great. And you know the name The unlikely investor? When I learned that that was a title of your book, for a moment, that threw me off. I'm like, I wonder what that means. But you know what? No, I think I know what that means. You can tell me, but I'm an unlikely investor. I went to college for geography and regional planning. That was my double major. I thought I'd be a geography teacher. It's just really unlikely that I got into real estate, I didn't have this bent in me anywhere within academia. So why do you call it the unlikely investor?

Grant Francke 41:49

That same story, you know, I had a great w2 job, I had a great union, a great pension. There's really no reason that I had to go out and do this. It's very unlikely. You know, if you look at the numbers of our peers that actually do what we've done. It's extremely unlikely that we did it, so it was a great call to action of like, No, you can do this. It may seem unlikely, but it's possible.

Keith Weinhold 42:09

Oh, well, I think that title is 100% appropriate. That was good to talk with you more, and I really want to thank you for coming onto the show, because you're going to help out a lot of people with your story and you the listener. If you find it relatable, check out. Grant's new book just published this year. It's called The Unlikely Investor Grant Francke, it's been great having you here on GRE

Grant Francke 42:33

appreciate it. Keith, it's an honor.

Keith Weinhold 42:40

Grant mentioned the tax breaks when you leave your job quickly, so as not to gloss over that when you're at the point where you're getting close to leaving your job, if that's even a goal of yours, some people want to get in real estate just for some additional income. But like he said, it was at a point where he and his family needed just $4,800 of rent income per month. That was back a few years ago there, and your number will almost surely be higher than that with the inflation that we've had. But you know, figure that in once you quit your job, you're probably going to identify for what's known as the real estate professional designation, as outlined by the IRS, what that is, is the status that gives you some really nice tax breaks. And one way in which you qualify is that real estate needs to be your principal activity, meaning you expand more of your time per week in real estate than you do any other discipline. Now, I'm not a CPA, but frequent guests here, Tom wheelwright and I, we have discussed the real estate professional designation on a prior episode, and every year, there's a form that I quickly fill out myself confirming my ongoing real estate professional designation. Now you're probably not going to be able to qualify for that when you still have a day job, because that's going to be your principal activity, where you spend most of your time each week, and also before you do quit your job, if that's a goal of yours, well, it is a good time to first qualify for loans Fannie and Freddie like the steadiness of a w2 income. So qualify for your last few loans before quitting. There might even be a seasoning period in there as well. Now, when it comes to today's guest grant, when he reached out to the show here, you know there's something about his approach that engenders this willingness to want to collaborate with him. I think I shared with you before that we get 50 times as many requests to be a guest on the show as we have available slots, but Grant, I guess, exudes this professionalism while being humble, and it just makes you want to see him win, and yeah, no wonder his local banks want to make him loans. I gave a formal written endorsement of Grant's new book earlier this year the. Forwarders, written by Brandon Turner, the book titled The unlikely investor. I mean, I might be an even less likely real estate investor than Grant because he's somewhat handy. That's a skill a handle. He's got that I don't have. I am a writer and well then somehow became, I guess, an unlikely podcaster or two in the book. He also writes that if you're unhappy in real estate investing, it means that your system is broken. So if you're seeking an approachable, relatable book, one where you can really, like, put yourself in the author's shoes and tell yourself, you know I can do that and I can be that. Well, then check out grant Frankie's book called The Unlikely Investor. More great shows coming up for you every Monday here. I'm grateful for your listenership. I'm your host. Keith whitehold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 2 46:03

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 46:23

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com
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530: Why We Hate Jeff Bezos
2 dec· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses the paradox of falling home prices and rents in Austin, Texas, despite it being the fastest-growing city. He highlights the over-supply of apartments, with new towers next to old bungalows, and notes that apartment rents are down, while single-family home rents are up.

He also explores societal attitudes towards wealth, noting the double standard of admiring celebrities while vilifying entrepreneurs like Jeff Bezos.

The over-supply of apartments has slowed down rent growth, affecting single-family home rents.

Wage growth has outpaced inflation, potentially boosting rents.

Millennials are increasingly renting due to the inability to afford homes.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, I just walked one of America's most interesting real estate streets. I'll tell you what I saw then what it takes to get rents to increase in the US more real estate investing content, then it's about jealousy and envy. Why we hate Amazon founder Jeff Bezos for his wealth, yet love performers like LeBron James and Taylor Swift for theirs. It's a case study on wealth, entrepreneurship and celebrity today on get rich education.

Speaker 1 0:39

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit getricheducation.com.

Corey Coates 1:25

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:41

Welcome to GRE from sinking spring Pennsylvania to Manitou Springs, Colorado and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are inside episode 530 of the GRE podcast. What's the minimum wage? I don't even know. Around here, we don't talk about how to live below your means, but grow your means, and you're gonna learn how to earn maximum wage. Austin, Texas is the fastest growing city in America. I've got some really interesting real estate observations for you, since I walked it two weeks ago and well, touring the Texas State Capitol Building was cool. And then on Austin's Sixth Street, I hadn't seen that much beer pong since college, but you know, rainy street, R A, I N, E Y, just south of the downtown, near the river, that was Austin's interesting Real Estate Street, the fastest growing city in the United States has falling home prices and falling rents. What a paradox that is in the fastest growing city. I mean, how do you balance that weirdness? Yes, the census tells us that Austin is the fastest growing and even as a gentrified hipster Haven with murals on the walls, street corners, there food trucks, coffee shops. You know the coffee shops that make you feel like you're in an indie film. It doesn't matter. They simply built too much there in Austin. So all of that that cannot compete with classic supply versus demand dynamics, old fashioned Milton Friedman stuff. And really, what I saw in both San Antonio and Austin is emblematic of the new apartment supply surge. What's going on on rainy street? I mean, that's what I call America's apartment over supply ground zero. Cranes are in the air all over the place. They're building 500 foot apartment towers right across the street from one story bungalows there on Rainey Street. It's a weird scene. Well, the apartments, they're going to be vacant for a while, and part of the weird scene is that there are outdoor live country music acts on the east side of rainy street, and they're playing out of these old one story bungalows converted to bars. It just feels like they're going to be raised and knocked over anytime and then country music, that's something that you associate with, like cows grazing within a mile of you. But that is not going on here, so these huge, new, shiny glass and steel apartment towers are right across the street from it. So it's this weird cultural mix of both country flare and urbanism in Austin and now there were also some clubs with DJs playing. There something more modern. I mean, like 20 year old R and B songs that everyone knows the words to by artists like Usher and Akon. Remember. Or a con or Ja Rule. Remember Ja Rule? Maybe they were playing Jay Z and ice cube too. But, you know, maybe shabu Z would have made more sense on that scene. In any case, it is an unusual scenario there in Austin. So a lively place, a growing place, but apartment buildings got out ahead of the growth. And yes, it all comes back to supply versus demand. Yep, that age old rivalry between what we've got and what we want now broadly, America has an overall lack of housing supply and the under building that is the most prevalent in northern states. And of course, under building, what that does is it increases the number of buyer bids on the few available properties. Well, in turn, that pushes up their home prices faster than the rest of the nation. Now the states with the most appreciation, they generally have the least new housing inventory being built. And of course, conversely, states with the highest available housing supply have the slowest home price appreciation. Austin is ground zero for that. So with the eclectic rainy street there, it's really representative of how you have some cities that are over built with apartments. You have a lot of apartment completions, but not very many new starts of apartments like I mentioned before. No, in fact, let's zoom out nationally. Here. Apartment list tells us that apartment rents are really flat. In fact, they're down seven tenths of 1% over the past year, available single family homes? Well, they're in more scarce supply than apartments, and the CoreLogic single family rent index tells us that their rents are up 2% annually. All right, something that completely makes sense for a change. The overbuild of apartments has slowed down their rent growth even more. But here's the thing, the overbuilding of apartments that's actually slowed down the rent growth in single family homes somewhat. And you might think that those two things aren't related, apartment rents and single family rents, but they're a little related. Just say a tenant they might ideally want a single family home, but there just aren't many of them out there for rent nationally. So then if a good new apartment is substantially cheaper, well, some proportion are going to accept an apartment as an alternative, and that's one reason that single family rent growth is just a modest 2% rather than a more normal 4% or so that you might see as a historic average. But yeah, I mean, really, the story is all these apartment completions, where a lot of them are going to be vacant for a while in some cities now, long term, apartments are going to be fine. I'm totally confident of that the demographic demand for apartments is going to be there because our population is growing and because there aren't many new apartment starts. So really that means over the next couple years, apartment supply versus demand is going to come more back into balance, while we could keep having this ongoing deficiency, though over for the single family rental homes. Perhaps the best thing that you and I can have happen to increase real estate profitability is to get rents up. So let's take a look at that. Let's look at the prospects for getting rents up in, just say, the next year or two. And there is a real bright spot here for that, and that is the fact that wages have outpaced inflation every single month for almost two years now, yes, wages and incomes are up those higher wages and higher incomes can therefore afford higher rents. And like with a lot of things in economics, it moves slowly, and there is a lag effect. And this is, you know, it's really how it usually works when there is a wave of inflation. What happens is, first, inflation outpaces wage growth, and now that we've come down off the big inflation wave, we're in the era where it has flipped, and now wage growth outstrips inflation. Well, the most recent stats, they tell us that America now has 4.6% wage growth and just 2.6% CPI inflation growth. Now is wage growth higher than the real diminished purchasing power of the dollar, not just the stated CPI inflation, because you got to remember, CPI is only the level that the government is willing to admit to, but in a sense, who cares? Because look, as a real estate investor, while your principal and interest payment stays fixed every month and inflation can't touch it, we know that wage growth is up 4.6% and that's the part that really. Matters. So if that means that you can get a 4.6% rent growth in the near future, after some lag effects settle in, well that might increase the annual cash flow, the money you feel in your pocket, say, 7% or 9% annually. So this wage growth trend, it portends really well for rent growth, ultimately flowing through to your cash flow growth. So we know that home price appreciation is amazing and has been amazing for us, investors, leverage and all of that, but there expects to be more upward pressure on rents, and that is led by robust wage growth. That is really happening now, and workers are demanding the wage growth to cope with higher consumer prices. Now, when it comes to the prospect of more home price growth, let's listen in to Shark Tank shark Barbara Corcoran, she recently talked about what would make home price growth go ballistic, as she puts it. This was her on Fox Business Channel with Neil cabotto. It's about three minutes in length, and then I'll be back to comment.

Speaker 2 11:08

Barbara Corcoran. Now the Corcoran Group founder, Shark Tank aficionado, much, much more brilliant read of real estate too, Barbara, great to have you. A lot I'm throwing at you, Barbara, and you always handle it, definitely. But first off, on the rate environment right now, between all these headlines and everything, rates have been backing up. And, you know, we just saw a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. It's up to 6.84% from 6.78% last week. That was before the market rate run up. So how do you view the environment right now for lending?

Speaker 3 11:43

Well, I think what we're losing right now we desperately need is more first time buyers. Less than 24% of the people buying now are first time buyers at an all time low. So rates have been bouncing around a while. Now, 6 to 7% so people are confused. They don't have big expectations. They're no longer waiting for a tremendous rate drop. If that happens, got it would be incredible for the market. But in the last year, or pardon me, in the last month alone, we have sold three and a half percent more houses despite what's going on in the interest rates. But the first time buyers aren't much a piece of that.

Speaker 2 12:16

You know, I notice as well us existing home sales, like you say, up 3.4% October. It's the first year over year gain I think we've seen in better part of three years. So what was going on there? Because that surprised me.

Speaker 3 12:30

Well, it doesn't surprise me because there's more houses on the market, so there were 25% more choices for the buyer coming out into the market and looking and on top of that, the buyers themselves have gotten accustomed to the rates being what they are, and they just got tired of waiting. But I am wondering if we'll ever see a 5% number, because anything with the 5% in front of it is going to make this market go ballistic. But right now, you're already seeing the signs. In the last month.

Speaker 2 12:59

You know, you've reminded me in the past that sometimes it's psychological. A lot of folks, and a lot of them look at that 7% handle on a fixed rate mortgage get close to or over that it could tax this recovery or whatever you want to recourse call it. But what do you say.

Speaker 3 13:13

well if it went higher? Of course, it would slow down the whole market. Would slow down the whole economy. It would slow down all the support services for the housing market, it would be a terrible thing, but I don't think people are thinking it's going to go much up, if you really listen to the experts. That could happen. But I don't think you're going to see interest rates above 7% again. I'm hoping that it's going to go and hover around six, or even go lower.

Speaker 2 13:36

All right. Well, you have a better track record a lot of those so called experts. I'm going to go with you, Barbara. But you know, the one thing that is out there, the worry is that Donald Trump, say what you will, of him, he has aggressive plans to spur the economy, you know, the tariff thing, the talk that, you know, he is going to pour a lot into tax cuts that could juice the economy so much so that some worry it's going to, you know, get prices going higher. We don't know for how long or how much, but that that that will be the inevitable consequence of what he's offering. Do you agree with that?

Speaker 3 14:06

I do agree with that. I think inflation is on everybody's mind, and I think it's risky, so I think we're going to find out. I guess it's like a horse race. We'll see what happens.

Keith Weinhold 14:15

Yeah, Barbara thinks mortgage rates in the fives. I guess under six then that would make the market go nuts and really push up prices. She reiterated how first time home buying is at an all time low, that proportion of the first time homebuyers are down, down, down, keeping those people as renters. So we've got the Trump bump and still an inflationary bump behind higher and higher real estate prices going into next year, most likely. But I mean, now you've really got to be selective and filter the kind of information that you listen to and put credence in what. We just had a presidential election a month ago, and people love to speculate about the future and what they think say tariffs are going to mean for inflation and then what that's going to do to interest rates. And you know, all that stuff is just notoriously difficult to predict. It is really tough. I mean, look, I've attended two prominent economic and real estate conferences the last few months, and there are some good insights at meetings like that. But here's the thing you've got to keep in mind, everyone has an opinion, and no one knows the future. George Bernard Shaw's got a great quote. He said, If all the economists were laid end to end, they would never reach a conclusion. So I mean, we're still going to talk inflation and interest rates here on the show, because their effect on your economic life is profound, but guessing about where they're going to go, especially interest rates, that is almost an exercise in futility. There are some things that we know will almost surely affect you. I mean, I'm talking about something like demographics that is more predictable, or the benefit of leverage, where, if you have too much equity in your properties, you can do something about that right now, and that way, what you do is you actually create your future, instead of guessing and speculating about what it might be. Or say you can create your future. You can learn about a program like you know when the opportunity Zone program came out a while ago, or a new tax incentive program for real estate investors. These are things you can do. You can sink your teeth into them with what you have right now, the resources, the toolkit that you have right now, and actually do something about and one thing that we do know is that increasingly, millennials cannot afford to buy a house, and you know, it just basically means that their future is poorer. They have to live with other people into their 30s. Instead of forming a family, they don't have kids. The marriage rate takes a hit. I mean, these numbers have collapsed since the 1980s the home ownership rate among them has gone from about 50% down to 30% so millennials and Gen Z ers too, they know that their future is really shaky and it's concerning. So you have this same cohort, people in their 30s doing two jobs, taking on three jobs, some of them balancing four jobs. They don't want to do that. They don't want to work 12 hour days, six days a week, while they're trying to pay down their college loans. They're doing it because they have to. They can't form a down payment for a home. The average millennial is 3637 years old. And their parents, and my parents, they're all baby boomers. And, you know, they Baby Boomers were the richest generation that we've ever seen. So what we've got going on here now is the first generation that will not be as rich as their parents, and that's really strange. We're all used to this sort of human progress. I mean, if your parents were middle class people, and you're less well off than them, or your tenant is well, then what does that mean? Well, it means that you're gonna be renting for a while. See this demographic stuff. This is really happening. There is no speculation here, and it's why I want you to set up your investor life to provide rental property to others. It's a smart place to be positioned. In fact, a lot of media agrees. Yahoo Finance just published an article titled, rental home investors are poised to benefit. It basically details why rental properties are going to be next year's attractive option for would be home buyers. This month, analysts at Raymond James and Associates, they say that they see mortgage rates remaining higher for longer given the outcome of the election, again, no one can really predict mortgage rates. But anyway, they reiterated their outperform ratings. That's the rating that they gave it out perform on these two companies, American homes for rent and invitation homes. And they're these institutional homebuyers, they do the build to rent space, and they noted Raymond James that is noted that we are increasingly confident in the longer term outlook for single family rental fundamentals and the industry's growth prospects. That's the end of their quote. So that's what the analysts of financial planning firm. Raymond James and Associates, had to say. And suffice to say, there is a lot of positive momentum for rental property, especially in the single family space coming up next. Why we hate Jeff Bezos for his wealth, but love performers like Harry Styles, Rihanna, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa and Olivia Rodrigo, despite their wealth.

Hey, check out all of our real estate investing resources at get rich education.com. It's the home per our podcast, this very show that you're listening to right now. Also videos, blogs, how to get our newsletter. Be sure you're doing that. Connections with our recommended real estate service providers, a way for you to contact us over there, and also how you can connect with our completely free, yes, truly free, real estate investment coaching, all of that and more. Is it get rich education.com. I'm Keith Weinhold. More next you're listening to get rich education.

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Dolf Deroos 22:48

this is the king of commercial real estate, Dolph de Roos. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 23:08

Welcome back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, a Taylor Swift loving friend recently said the weirdest thing to me, I don't buy from Amazon. I hate Jeff Bezos. He doesn't need any more money. Yeah, that's what they said that struck me as so odd. Well, Taylor Swift is a billionaire with a B and a net worth of $1.6 billion and going up. And you know, we're doing this everywhere in society. Why do we vilify wealthy entrepreneurs like Bezos yet glorify wealthy actors and athletes and singers like Taylor Swift? Let's look into this, because I've actually got some answers for why so many people apply this double standard to wealthy celebrities and well known people. And I know I've mentioned to you before that Taylor Swift and I were actually born in the same hometown of Reading, Pennsylvania, West Reading, actually vilifying business people yet glorifying performers. That seems to transcend, you know, any of these celebrity personality or character flaws. So let's put all that stuff aside that's distracting, that devolves and gets us off topic. Let's just focus on the wealth part and the resentment of that wealth, because often it's not that people dislike Bezos for say, the decline of small retail though there is that for any of his personal traits, but specifically they hate his wealth, but by the way, yet they have an Amazon account. Well. As a society, we just love celebrities despite their wealth, if they're stage performers like Rihanna, Taylor Swift, Dua Lipa, Olivia Rodrigo, Harry Styles, LeBron James. I mean, we applaud Stephen Curry's three pointers and show a otani's home runs when Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurts got a $255 million contract extension. We loved it. Fans plastered their walls with his poster, but yet, at the same time, while people are doing that, society often disparages successful entrepreneurs and business owners for their wealth, like Bezos or Barbara Corcoran, who we heard from earlier, or Spanx founder, Sarah Blakely, so I analyze why society does this, so let's see what we can learn from it. And I should add, of course, that like with most anything, you can find some exceptions out there, some outliers. I mean, Warren Buffet's net worth is over 100 billion and yet seems like everyone wants to sit around a campfire and listen to his sage investing wisdom, and some athletes are despised, for sure. And then there's a guy like Ryan Reynolds who kind of spans both worlds and lives his best life in Hollywood and in business, but really our emotional divide. It begins with the primordial human senses of jealousy and envy. And, you know, there's a cartoon floating around out there, and the cartoon has just two frames. In the first frame, it shows a guy standing in front of the room with a crowd of people that he's speaking to, and he asks, Who hates the rich? And everyone in the crowd has their hand up raised high. Everyone hates the rich. And then the second frame of the cartoon shows the same scene, and the guy in the front of the room is saying, Now, who wants to be rich? And yeah, everyone's got their hand raised up again. So let's be realistic. Ask most people that resent the wealthy, all right, what income do you think you'd need to be to be considered rich yourself? Oh, maybe they would answer say, five times as much as I make it now. Oh, yeah. Well, I bet if right after that, you offered them a 5x pay raise for the same job, they would take it, but yet they resent the wealthy, even though 5x would make them wealthy. Now there's a component of optics here, too. You, with your own eyes, get to see Taylor Swift perform at a concert. Her work is visible. It's satisfying. You might be emotionally moved by that. And from all accounts, Taylor does put in a ton of work to perform that well, sing that well, and put in the physical endurance of these three plus hour concerts. That really is amazing. I don't denigrate her for owning a Dassault Falcon private jet like she does. I mean, I don't disparage any wealthy person for wealth alone. I think deep down in your heart, it's where a lot of people want to be. Robert Downey, Jr. He performs his we'll call it his magnum opus, on screen as Iron Man Tony Stark in Marvel movies, and he's been paid up to $600 million for that role across many movies, but yet, you know, we find that satisfying, which is weird. I mean, Taylor Swift, she is herself, but actors like Robert Downey Jr actually pretend to be someone else. So we praise an actor like Robert Downey Jr, and he's best known for pretending to be someone else, but yet we despise say, Apple's leader Tim Cook, for his wealth. Why in the heck would that be I mean, how do you justify that? Well, it's because Tim Cook's performances aren't visible. It's optics. You didn't get to see the process of how Bezos revolutionized Amazon's 24 hour delivery to your doorstep or drone delivery. What bezels is doing on a computer is not exactly a spectator sport. Okay, we don't get to see the work that Apple Steve Jobs did for our iPhone, or what Tim Cook does for our iPhone or iPad or MacBook. So therefore it's less satisfying because it wasn't visible. And yet, Tim Cook's highest endeavor, it's less glamorous than that of an actor. And yet Tim Cook completely acts like himself. For all ways I can tell, unlike an actor and Tim Cook, he really shapes the world that you and I live in today. I mean, he has definitely influenced your life more than some fictitious superhero has. There's also an element of imitation here, and this is really important, because look, you and I really for all intents and purposes, we cannot be like Taylor Swift or LeBron James. But you know what we can be a little like Jeff Bezos or Tim Cook, at some point in your life, you get real and you tell yourself that you cannot be like Lebron James. You cannot sprout to be six foot nine and be the all time leader in NBA point scored, you're not going to be like Taylor Swift. And had the highest grossing musical tour of all time with more than 7 million tickets sold. Now you couldn't sell any tickets to people that would want to see you sing. I sure couldn't. But see, you can be a successful entrepreneur. You just have to do, and when you have to do, and you know you could do those things. See, this means that you and I don't have any cop out. So sometimes we refute an entrepreneur success to try to let ourselves off the hook from actually doing you know, I think it's human nature to sort of protect our ego and tell ourselves, ah, I can't be like them. But that's false, because being wealthy is a choice, something I actually didn't believe when I was younger. If you wanted to you, yes, not some other listener, but you could have a successful business and perhaps even parlay your success into being a yacht owner, you could actually be that now, yacht owner, that's not some goal of mine. But see, instead of resenting a yacht owner, you can be inspired by that success. You don't have to launch a space company and fly people to Mars. You can do something here on earth. You can own a successful e commerce company, or rent out cars to people, or provide what people truly need and righteously serve a lot of people with housing. As a real estate investor, you can do all those things, even if it's just 1% of the level that Bezos does with E commerce, even if it's 1/10 of 1% see, you can get a piece of that. This is similar to how popular culture denigrates landlords and yet over sympathizes with tenants. Sometimes the tenant is right, but the landlord is often not some mega corporation. They're usually a mom and pop investor that took on risk and took out a mortgage loan to provide property for a complete stranger. Now let's say that you achieve what we'll call success, quote, unquote, success as a real estate entrepreneur, because you just added your 20th rental unit, right? You had 19, as soon as you go to 20, then is that the right level at which you're supposed to start being denigrated? But up to that point, it was okay. I mean, see, this can sound a little silly. In fact, just last week, at the New Orleans investment conference, I met a GRE listener and investor, Jenny from Indiana. She actually owns 19 rental units. They're mostly single family rentals. All right. Well, is it okay to own 19? But then she should start being resented once she adds her 20th property and serves that many people, that doesn't make any sense, and neither does resenting Bezos, I mean, he grew up in challenging conditions with a 17 year old mother and An alcoholic father. Bezos worked, innovated, took risks, raised money. His Guiding Light at Amazon has been an ethical three words, serve the customer. That's a good thing. He came from disadvantaged conditions to serve the customer. And the good news here is that you can do this too. You don't need to have a certain body type or an IQ. Serve the tenant, serve the market. I mean, I have seen successful entrepreneurs that are overweight, short, old, young, tall, female, male, even dyslexic, and they have all crushed it in business among the world's 8 billion people. You yourself see life in a way that no one else sees it. So at some point you learn that you really can't sing like Taylor Swift, or jump over a car like LeBron, or be as funny as. Meet bargatsi, but you can be you, and that's enough, but you have to do and, oh yeah, not give up every time things get tough, but nobody's stopping you. An entrepreneur is a crazy person who risks their own money for freedom, rather than exchanging their freedom for money, you took the leap critics stand on the sidelines when they're disparaged only because they're wealthy. It says more about the critic than it says about you, the successful entrepreneur and real estate investor. So instead, you can ask yourself the question, what is stopping me from creating my own version of that success? We misdirect our emotions when we vilify entrepreneurs and glorify stage performers merely based on what's more visible, more emotional and more imitative, rather than the Creator of the products and services that put real value in your life. So don't be ashamed of applying yourself and using your ingenuity in your strategy, in your careful risk taking for earning more income for yourself. We shouldn't disparage Bezos, LeBron, Taylor Swift or Dua Lipa for the wealth, because it is the same kind of success that we all wish that we could have.

coming up in future weeks on the show here we're getting closer to the end of the year where I will reveal get rich education's home price appreciation forecast for next year right here on the show. And I'm gonna give you an exact percentage national home price appreciation number. You're gonna know what to expect. I've done that for you for a few years here now I think this is gonna be the fourth year in a row where I'm doing it. It's sort of becoming a tradition, but coming up before that here on the show, I've shared with you how you know it's usually going to take you five years or more to go from your day job to financial freedom through real estate investing, but we've had some nice appreciation the last few years, and some GRE listeners are doing it faster than five years pretty soon, here, I'm gonna have a conversation with the GRE listener that applied principles that he heard here on the show, and he quit his job for real estate in just three years, he's gonna be here with me and tell you how he did it. Thanks for listening.

Hey, go ahead andtell a friend about the show here, take a screenshot and post it on your social media. I really appreciate you sharing the GRE Podcast with your friends and others until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Speaker 4 37:56

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice, please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 38:24

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.
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529: How to Be the Best in the World at Anything
25 nov· Get Rich Education
Former NFL player, Broadway playwright, best-selling author and in-demand public speaker, Bo Eason, joins us to discuss the power of storytelling and achieving greatness. Bo emphasizes the importance of setting high standards, such as aiming to be the best, and seeking out mentors. He shares his upbringing, where his father instilled confidence by telling him he was the best, which influenced his success. Bo highlights the significance of personal, physical, and unapologetic storytelling to build trust and connect with others.

Adopt the mindset of striving to be the best, not just settling for mediocrity.

Make the Gold Medal the standard, not the end goal.

Develop and share your personal, compelling story to build trust and attract opportunities.

Resources:

Text "PERSONALSTORY" to 323-310-5504 to receive a free video course from Bo on uncovering your powerful personal story.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:02

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, how do you become the best in the world at anything that you want to do in your life? Today's remarkable guest will tell you how so you can become the best version of yourself. He's become the best in more than one endeavor, including playing in the NFL. We'll also learn about the persuasive power of story and how you can find your very best personal story that you do have inside of you. It's a show rated PG for personal growth today on get rich education

Speaker 1 0:41

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:27

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education. You Keith,

Keith Weinhold 1:43

welcome to GRE from Europe's Iberian peninsula to New Iberia, Louisiana and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. As always, I'm grateful to have you along this week. This is get rich education. Most investing is left brained, but most decision making for your investment, choice is right brain. If you don't know the difference, left brain is about the numbers. It's analytical and logical. So left brain people, they're good at math and critical thinking and language as well. If you're more right brained, then you are more creative and emotional, and you tend to be good at recognizing faces and the attribute of diplomacy that's right brained. And it's a right brained kind of episode. Today you're going to learn how to be a performer and be the best at whatever you want to be. I mean, the best, whether that's as a real estate investor, business person, apartment building syndicator, or a real estate agent that's trying to sell homes, it'll even help you become the best parent, child, best spouse, best at basketball, best at table tennis. And you know, you are part of a really well educated and influential audience that we have here. Maybe you're trying to be the best physician or politician or even social media influencer or the best church minister that you can be. And in fact, as it turns out, people that are trying to raise money end up consulting today's guest quite a bit. And as you'll see, this guest really can tell a story. You'll learn that he has achieved elite success, even best in the world, success in a number of different areas. He's had like, three or four successful people's lives, yet he's the same guy. He's sort of like, in a sense, President Elect Donald Trump. Love him or hate him. Trump found success in real estate and then in media, with his show The Apprentice and then as the 45th and 47th president. Well, those disciplines there for Trump, they're somewhat related. Well, today's guest became the best in areas that aren't even related to each other at all, which is even more amazing. So therefore, maybe today it's really more of an Arnold Schwarzenegger parallel. I mean, Schwarzenegger, he was first the successful bodybuilder, winning Mr. Olympia, then he went on to become a successful actor. He married into the Kennedy family, and he became the California governor. Well, before I introduce you to today's guest, well, we are a wealth building show here, and as we talk about being the best in something, you know, I really want to ask you a question, Are you content with being middle class? You know, despite the way that inflation has ravaged it us, middle class life isn't all that bad. In fact, it's pretty good in a lot of ways, from the iPhone to the luxury of having a gym membership. I mean, that's just middle class stuff. Sheesh. Life is so good that when it's time to reset a password, people treat that as some sort of existential crisis. And you know, this is the time of year that even the middle class indulge in, say, pretty elaborate Christmas decorations. In fact, I increasingly notice that it's more and more common to hire a Christmas decorating contractor to decorate your real estate for you. They'll get ladders and a lift truck to hang lights in your tallest trees. That's something that the middle class does. Here's a new one. There's at least one mainstream, I guess, paper products company that now makes toilet paper with perforations that are wavy instead of being straight across, because it's easier to tear that way. So I think that you could make the case that American middle class life really isn't too bad, but in your life, if you want to be all that you can be, or anywhere close, you're not going to settle for something that's just better than not too bad. You can want more, and you should want more because you're capable of more, if for nothing else create the type of value for the world so that you can have more free time for yourself. I expect to have a terrific time and learn some things here where I am today in New Orleans for the 50th anniversary of the New Orleans Investment Conference, we've got speakers and exhibits covering real estate investing, economics, a lot of gold investing material at this conference Bitcoin and even stocks. And of course, I invited you, the listener here the past couple months, to come to the conference and meet in real life. As this is about to kick off, I wonder if I will find someone to go running with me. I always go running along the Mississippi River. Here in New Orleans, there is a trail paralleling the river right here, close to the event site. Yeah, I think I'm recovered from a mild back injury by now. Gosh, it was so weird. I hurt my back at the gym last month. And here's the thing. Somehow I heard it while doing my warm up exercises, of all things, sheesh. In fact, this is a triumvirate of fitness paradoxes here in doing this. Number one, warm ups are activities that you do before you work out to prevent hurting yourself, but I hurt myself in the warm up. Secondly, I never seem to injure myself while running steep, rocky trails or skiing down slopes outdoors, but indoors where the floor is level, that's the place where I seem to get injured. And then thirdly, the gym is where you go to improve your fitness, not lose fitness. So yes, that is the triumvirate of paradoxes there. Well, our guest, you know, he really knows the power of story, and just listen to him. I bet he'll tell a better story than hurting my back at the gym. Let's meet him.

Today, we have a guy with massive ambitions who I know is going to bring out the best in you during his lifetime, he's chased what it means to be world class, not just in one discipline, but in five different disciplines, and he's achieved a true level of greatness in all of them. He has played in the NFL for four seasons with Houston, then went on to become a San Francisco 49er, next, a super successful Broadway playwright, then an in demand public speaker, most recently, an eight time best selling author, and he has gone on to write screenplays for movie stars, so get ready to hear him talk about the one factor that's been the driving force behind his success in all of these disciplines. Hey, welcome to get rich education. Bo Eason.

Bo Eason 9:13

Keith, thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 9:14

Well, it's the first time that we have a former NFL player on the show, and Bo played the same position that my favorite football player of all time did, Ryan Dawkins, that is the safety position. But we're not here to discuss football so much as how you can build the architecture of success like Bo has and Bo your success is astounding, and our listeners hope that some of their virtual proximity to you rubs off on them today, I do too, and it's remarkable because you've reached the pinnacle of success in some of these disciplines that don't even seem to be related to each other at all. So what can you reveal here? Is there one common driver that led to them all?

Bo Eason 9:58

Man, you know what? That's. A great question, going back the way my dad woke us up as kids. So I'm the youngest of six kids, so I grew up on a ranch, on a farm in northern California. My dad was a cattle rancher, and I four older sisters and a brother who's a year older than me, so every morning he woke up all six of us to go do our chores, you know, on this ranch at five in the morning, and he would wake us up by rubbing our backs. He pulled back the covers. He'd rub our backs really hard, like, not easy, not like gentle, like dads of today, like this was a cowboy, you know, with dirty hands and rough hands. And he would rub our back and he would whisper in our ear and tell us that we were the best. And so for the first 18 years of my life, every morning he'd come into me in my brother's room. He'd wake up my brother in the same way he woke me up by rubbing his back and whispering his ear, you're the best. Get up, you're the best. And after you hear that for 18 years, my brother went off to college. I went off to college. My sisters all went off to college. And I always think back to those eight first 18 years, because when I would come home and visit our parents. So my brother got drafted. He was the first round pick of the New England Patriots. He was the quarterback for the New England Patriots took them to their first Super Bowl. So that best term worked out for him. And then I was a second round pick for the Houston Oilers, and got to play with them for several years. And this term, I always thought back to it, like, Why was my dad saying that? Because when we were growing up, when we were playing Little League, and we're playing sports, when we were kids, we actually weren't the best. But he wouldn't say that we were like, I would strike out every time in Little League, I was so bad at baseball, and every time he would yell at me through the chain link fence that I was the best, and my teammates are like, You got to be kidding me, Bo What is your dad even saying You're the worst? And he's telling you you're the best for most of our lives, the first half of our lives, it was a source of embarrassment to me and my brother and I remember going on a date one time, a double date with my brother. In fact, I couldn't even drive my brother could, and we went on a this double date with the thomasini sisters. So we were going, and my dad walks out to the car with us, and we're like, What the heck is my What's dad doing? Why is he coming out to the car with us? He came out there to tell us that we were leaders and that we were the best before a date. And I'm like, Dad, go in the house, right? And then finally, you know me and my brother, we weren't recruited as football players coming out of high school. Not one person, not one college recruited us, but we had these dreams of being pro football players, and at that time, 350 colleges played college football, but no one wrote us a letter. No one recruited us. So my brother went to a junior college, and then he ended up, after that, got a scholarship to the University of Illinois, and then became a first round pick. Well, I went to a school called UC Davis in Northern California, which was division two football and no scholarships. So basically, no one was on scholarship. There. You just walked on and you played football for fun. Well, that's where I went. And then, you know, cut to four years later, my brother's a first round pick. I'm a second round pick, and we always looked back from that point on, deciding, like Dad always embarrassed us, friends in front of our dates, in front of everybody. But then at that point, 21, 22 years old, we looked back, we said, Man, you know what? We just kind of surrendered to, what he saw in us, and we were the best. We were the best at our positions, and the only reason we were is because we had somebody who saw our greatness and pretty much spoke it into existence. Now, when you grow up like that, Keith, you think you assume that every other kid has grown up like that too, right? But that wasn't true, right? We thought it was true. You know, it turns out that the other guys we were playing with, the other guys who are our teammates, they did not grow up like that. So I would say that that principle was huge for me and my brother, just somebody who saw something in us that we couldn't see for ourselves, and he did it up to a point where we began to see it for ourselves. He just was very patient. And, you know, I find myself doing this with my kids. I have three kids, and they're all going to be d1 athletes, two of them are already, wow. Yeah, and it's because that's how I woke him up, too, like so I know that's kind of a simple story, but it really set the foundation for us, and here's how it did, Keith, it told me what was expected of us, even when we weren't the best. He was expecting us to live into what he saw, and we did, and I found my kids to do the same, like I was looking at my kids, and I was like, Man, are they going to be athletes like me and my brother are at that level, because that was their dreams, right? But I didn't know if they had what it took. As I woke them up every morning, I could see them starting to live into their potential or live into their birthright. So I think to start off with Keith, that was a principle that is a mainstay. It taught me not only what was expected of me, but what I could set the standard for other people, and then they would live on into that standard, been able to do that. So those couple of things were huge in my upbringing.

Keith Weinhold 16:02

Well, this is remarkable, and I think you're already giving the parents in our audience quite a few ideas. Bo, this phrase, you're the best kind of got indelibly baked into your being and who you are, your dad even chasing you around on a double date, reinforcing you're the best and you know, Bo, I think that a person can be simultaneously grateful for what they have yet at the same time strive for more, as often say here on the show and adopting an abundance mindset with wealth building. Don't live below your means, grow your means. Now, I was watching an NFL football game just this past weekend, and a commercial came on for the IBEW, the labor union, and Bo it struck me as so odd that a trainee at the IBEW smiled, and they were all gratified that they were part of the IBEW. And they said, this is like now I have my golden ticket to the middle class, which I mean, because being middle class isn't like altogether awful in the United States, but it just sounded like this was the be all and end all, and hey, now I have a guarantee of mediocrity in my life that struck me as so odd. I don't think their father was telling them you're the best like yours did.

Bo Eason 17:21

No, they definitely did not. I'm always shook by that too, where people will sometimes come to me and they go, Bo, I want to push back on being the best. I just want to, you know, be kind of a good player, kind of medium wealth. And I'm like, Well, if you want to push back on me, you should take that up with Mother Nature, because if you just go back to the day that we were conceived, you know, if we want to have a little refresh of course on the day we were conceived, you were going to find out that there was the odds of us even being born were 300 million to one, and we were the champion of that first race that we entered right like 300 million to one odds, you're the champion, and yet here we are, you and me number one. You know, the gold medalists of those odds, and now we're supposed to be born into a world and be mediocre. I don't think Mother Nature set it out like that. I don't think that's how it happened. I think the standard is the gold medal, not the silver medal. You know, it's the gold medal. Now, some people win silver medals. If they lose the gold that's fine, that's great, but the gold medal is the thing. And I think the minute we lower ourselves from that. We're just trying to give ourselves a soft landing, I think, and then we don't ask enough of our potential, which is, if you're following Mother Nature, your potential is 300 million to one odds, and you already won that gold medal. So what are you doing? You know? What are you doing? So, as I progressed, Keith, so I went from football, I played in the lake for five years, and I didn't know what I was going to do, right? So I just started again. I just said, so instead of being the best safety in the world, because that was my first declaration, I just said, I want to be the best safety in the world. That's it. So I was able to achieve that. And then when football was over, I did the same thing for playwriting and performing. I just said, I don't care. I know I don't have any experience in this, but I'm going to declare right now, and I draw it up, that I'm going to be the best stage performer of my time. So that principle has worked every time, but I had to use the term the best. And I don't know why. I guess it was just locked in my brain. But here's the next thing, the next principle that I think is important for the audience. And this goes for wealth building. This goes for whatever you want to build, whether it's your family or, you know, an apartment complex. It doesn't matter we're building stuff. And here's what I did the second. All around I said, I want to be the best stage performer, the best playwright of my time. So I didn't know how to do that. So I moved to New York City because I knew everybody did plays there. They did Broadway, they did off Broadway. And I asked everybody in my class, who's the best at this this was in 1990 who is the best at this stage performance. And every kid in my class, and there were kids I was a little older because I was playing football, I said, Where is the best stage performer of our time? Who is it? And they all said, Al Pacino. And I said, Cool. Where is he? And they said, Well, I don't know where he is. He's on a movie set somewhere, or, you know, rehearsing for a theater show. And I said, I want to know him. I want to meet him, because only the best can tell me how to be the best. Only the best can tell me how to take his mantle of being the best stage performer. Wow, most people don't think that, or say that. You said Brian Dawkins, me too. I'm like, who's the best safety in the world? Let me go talk to that dude, because that dude knows what, like Ronnie. Lott, was that for me? Jack Tatum, Ronnie. Lott, those kind of guys I ended up playing with. Ronnie. Lott, you know you end up playing with these guys. You know the guys you're looking up to? Well, within a week of me asking these kids in my class, where is Al Pacino? I'm having dinner with Al Pacino, in New York City and I go, Dude, what do I do? What do I do? You tell me, I'll do it. And he goes, Okay, Bo, I'll draw it up for you. We'll draw it up. You know what that's going to take, but that's going to take you 15 years, and I go, perfect. That's my kind of timeline. I'm good like that, you know? And he goes, Okay, so he drew it up and I did what he said. He told me who to work with. Basically, he's telling me to put my butt on a stage. More than any other person can put their butt on a stage. So I go, I can control that, that I know how to control, because that's what I did. As far as training to be the best safety. I wasn't the best safety, but as the years went by, guess what? I passed up everybody who was ahead of me. You know, you're the top safety in the league. Well, same thing for being on Broadway, he told me what to do. I did exactly what he told me to do. And 15 years later, I am opening a play in New York City that I wrote that I'm the only guy in and I swear I was so nervous before opening night to run out and look Keith I had played against the biggest and baddest dudes on the planet. You know, I wasn't as scared as going out on a stage to face those dudes. I would rather face refrigerator Perry or Walter Payton than going out on a Broadway stage. And I went out on starting the play, I am having an out of body experience because I'm the only one. I'm talking to the audience. The New York critics are in the house. Everybody's in there. And I make eye contact with a guy right on the row. He's sitting right on the aisle. It's Al Pacino. I had seen him in 15 years. He told me what to do. I did what he said. He's in my play, I wrote, and I'm the only guy, Al Pacino, the best stage performer of all time, is sitting right there on the aisle. That's so cool. And he's nodding his head. He's like, Yeah, I'm doing you did it. And so a you have to have a declaration, and that declaration has to be the best. So the declaration of being the best safety, being the best playwright, being the best stage performer, those things actually come true because you have a declaration which you're living into existence instead of following some to do list, right? I did the same thing for playwriting. I did the same thing with Al Pacino, and that career really set me off because I performed that play 17 years. One play 17 years it immediately gets bought by Castle Rock pictures as a movie. Frank Darabont bought the play as a movie. And I don't know if you know who Frank Darabont is, but he's the guy who wrote and directed the Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile Saving Private Ryan collateral. He's the guy who his team's TV show he created is The Walking Dead. So this dude was nominated for 12 Academy Awards for writing and directing. He bought my play to produce it for him, and so he hired me, who's never written a screenplay, to write the screenplay for him. This dude has been nominated for 12 Academy Awards for lighting, and he hires me. I go, Dude, don't hire me because I've never written a screenplay. I don't understand it. I don't get it. I'm not a great speller. In fact, I do. Don't even have a computer. And he goes, I don't care about that. I think you can tell the story. Yeah. And I go, okay, so he was hiring me basically based on my guts or my heart, and we did that. So he bought that. I wrote the screenplay for him. Then Leonardi DiCaprio and Toby McGuire come to the play. They come running backstage, they say, Bo, we want you to write a movie for us. And I go, You know what, you guys, I don't write movies. They go, we pay a lot of money for our screenwriters. We think you can do it. And I go, Yeah, based on that money, I think I can do it too. And so the crazy part about this whole thing is it all falls back to this ability to share myself, to tell a story, to tell a story that has physicality to it, that has heart to it, the ability to do that has really given me all these occupations. And then people came to me like business owners from Wall Street. They would come to the play like with their wife, because their wife wanted to go to the theater and they were watching my play. Well, they would come backstage, Keith, and they would say, Hey, man, I want you to bring this to my fortune 500 company. And I'm like, wait, what do you mean? What do you I don't this is a play. I don't take this to Fortune 500 companies. This play, you got to come to the theater. They go, No, we don't want to. I want our sales force. I want our leadership executives to learn to do what you do on stage. I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. Me and my wife, we're like, going, I don't understand what you read. They said it's the funniest thing, because typically, when you're on Broadway, the people who come backstage to see you, they shake your hand, or they get you autograph and they say, Wow, you're a terrific performer. Or what great writing. That's what they usually say, right? Not my play. They come backstage and they don't say, I'm great. This is what they say, Can you teach my people to do what you just did? Yeah, on stage, we're like, of course, because I was taught I could retrace my steps. And I can teach business people, leaders, doesn't matter the business coaches, whatever I can teach them to express themselves in front of other people, which then makes them wealthy, because in the end, I learned Keith that whoever tells the best story wins.

Keith Weinhold 27:33

Yeah, I want to get to the power of story after the break before we do that when one knows that the best that word is out there for them, I think oftentimes they're stricken with fear. Fear is a great obstacle. How do you overcome the fear from listening to you? It seems to me that your mechanism for coping with fear and becoming the best is facing it, getting in there and getting the reps.

Speaker 2 28:00

Yeah, 100% there's a great quote, the world was not created by great men, the world was created by a demanding situation where great men then rose. So we don't know our greatness until we're faced with a demanding situation. So if you're nine, you have no obstacles in your life, you're like, Wow, this is really fun. I'm living on a farm. There's pals, there's horses. What a nice life. And then Bo created his own problem. He created a declaration that said, I want to be the best safety in the world. Well, right then, right when I got creative. Now, Bo's life became a demanding situation where I had to grow strong and I had to eat right, I had to exercise, I had to run faster than anybody else. So I created all these demanding situations for my life. But that's the only way to reveal character. No NFL team is drafting anybody who doesn't have a characteristic that makes you a successful NFL player, and the only way to get those characteristics is to lose is to get your butt kicked, is to face your opposing players that's putting yourself in a demanding situation. So us, you know, as successful guys and successful gals, we kind of get satisfied and so that we forget to keep putting ourselves in demanding situations. That's where the fear comes in. Because once you're in a demanding situation, you get scared. You're like, oh, do I have what it takes to do this? And then you discover by going forward that you actually do. You do have what it takes, and fear is like a made up thing, and you start to realize that you're the creator of your own fear. So look, when I wrote the play in New York, I had never written anything in my life. Like I said, I couldn't spell good. I didn't have a computer, but here's what I did have. I had the ability, because I already did this in my life. I knew how to put myself in a demanding situation and then take a step forward. I knew how to do that based on my football career. I knew it so the principles of being the best safety in the world and being the best playwright in the world are the exact same principles. You have to have the declaration. It has to be at a standard that's way out of your comfort zone that puts you in that demanding situation. Then you have to start running the miles. Then you have to hire an expert coach that sees you clearly, and it is a critical thinker like can see you and go, Bo, stop that. Do that. Stop doing that. And do that just like a nutritionist. Hey, I want to live longer. I want to be there for my daughters when they walk down the aisle. Okay, then you better stop eating this and start eating that. You have to have these experts in your life to fulfill on your birthright of being the best. So now you just break your life down. I just broke my life down like five different times because I enter a new era, like screenplays. How am I going to write a screenplay? I don't know how. I don't understand, but here's what I do. Know how to do. I know how to work. I know how to be the best. Those principles are pretty much the same as safety and playwright. So the guy who buys my play to hire me as a screenplay writer is the greatest screenwriter in Hollywood. So he's the guy paying me, he's the guy coaching me, he's the guy looking over my shoulder going, Bo Don't say that. Say this, say less, do this. Those are just first three principles. We're talking about the best. The standard has to be sky high. Otherwise it's not going to be demanding. It's not going to require enough of your humanity to fulfill on yourself. So it's got to be there. Then you've got to take the time to run the miles to do this thing, and you cut your time in half, or less than a half, by having somebody who is an expert mentor or an expert coach. A guy like Al Pacino, a guy like Frank Darabont who just goes, Bo do this. Don't do that. A guy like Ronnie Lott, both don't do that, do this. And I just do what they say, because, guess what, they're the best in the world at what they do. You guys, those principles, I found I just keep repeating them over and over again. Now a lot of you might be saying, Bo, that's a little much for me, because I don't know Al Pacino or I don't know Ronnie Lott, and I don't know Frank darabonda. You guys, I didn't know him either. I didn't know him either, but I do know this the best in their field, whoever that is, don't say you want to be the wealthiest person on the planet. Well, the wealthiest person on the planet is more available than you think. Guess why? Because everyone thinks they're too busy and they don't ask of their time. You ask of their time. No one's asking of Al Pacino's time. Guess why? Because they don't want what he has. They want to be famous. I wasn't interested in fame. They want to get an agent in Hollywood. I wasn't interested in that. I was interested in what Al Pacino had, which was he was the best stage performer of his time. That they're willing to tell you, because they know if you're asking that question, they want to be involved with you.

Keith Weinhold 33:44

right, because you dared to ask. And they can probably perceive your ambition, and people can sense that, and they love that, and it sure can be scary to say, but fear should be your guide. You should follow your fear. We all know that that's where the growth is. It's like the gap in the game. It's been said that the gap between where we are and where we want to be lies our greatest opportunity for growth. We're talking with former NFL player Bo Eason about being the best. We're going to come back and talk about the power of story. Next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

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Matt Bowles 36:08

Hey everybody. This is Matt Bowles from Maverick investor group you're listening to get rich education with Keith Weinhold and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 36:27

Welcome back to get rich education. We're on a mindset journey today to help you level up, be a better person and even be the best.Talking with former NFL football player Bo Eason, and Bo, you're such a powerful storyteller, and I think it's a really important time to be a powerful storyteller. Trust in institutions seems to be at an all time low, from the government to the media. This is partly why the rise of influencer culture has become a thing. So tell us about how a powerful personal story can build instant trust and connection in seconds. Even when it seems like trust is at an all time low.

Bo Eason 37:07

it is at an all time low. That's what Gallup does a poll every year on trust. The question they ask is, do you trust your neighbor? And it's at its lowest it's ever been. They started this in 1972 but it's down to single digits. This is your neighbor. This isn't somebody across the street. This is this isn't somebody in the next town or the next state you know, or the next country. This person you share a backyard fence with.

Keith Weinhold 37:34

right? Like you're afraid to ask them to check for packages on your front porch when you're on a vacation or something. Yeah, the trust

Bo Eason 37:41

below. But everybody gets depressed by the statistic. I get excited about it because there is one group of us that can restore trust. It is the storyteller. It's not just the storyteller, you guys, it's the person who can share themselves personal story, not just a story, although stories, you know, work, and they've always worked for 1000s of years, but personal stories move the dial the most. Give you the most Trust, the most credibility. Personal stories like if I say to you a sentence like this, when I was nine years old, I had this dream, so I decided to draw up a 20 year plan to achieve my dream. If I tell you a sentence like that, you and me, even though it's a simple sentence, right? It's personal to me. Well, personal equals universal. Whenever you're telling a personal story, it affects your audience that much more, because your audience locates themselves inside of your story. That is the science of storytelling, and that's why you earn trust by sharing yourself personally. Now most people don't want to do that. They push back, especially business people, especially left brain, analytical type people, they say to me, Bo I'm not going to share myself, because who cares about my story? And I say everybody, you're just telling the wrong story. You have to tell it very personal and very specific to you, and it has to be a pain point. It has to be a low point in your life. That's where you start the story, because if you start at the top, there's no place to go with story. It's like, think of rocky everybody. Sylvester Stallone was a very smart guy. He was an unemployed actor, and he said, I'm going to employ myself for the rest of my life. Guess how he plays the role of Rocky? He writes the role of Rocky. Who does he put in front of him, Apollo Creed, the greatest heavyweight champion in the world, a character named after a god that's called great storytelling. He put Mount Everest in front of him. And if you notice, that's what he's always done every movie he writes. He's given himself a career because he puts himself at the base of Mount Everest every time. Well, that's where I want you to put yourself. What is your story? Where did you get rejected? It's always at a younger age. You know, Michael Jordan's story is the same as Tom Brady's story is the same story that I have, which is, we all were rejected in high school. We all were told we weren't good enough to play a high school sport. So what did we become the best in our fields? That's what always happens. That's always the story of an elite athlete. So I want you guys sharing yourselves with these stories, and these stories are kind of the ones you kind of don't want to tell because they reveal certain things about you that are kind of humiliating. But humility is the best connective tissue that us human beings have. Isn't that weird? Embarrassment is a great connective tissue success. Isn't that connective? Isn't that weird?

Keith Weinhold 40:58

Yeah, I mean, embarrassment is self deprecating. Most people like that, and everyone can relate to failing.

Bo Eason 41:05

Yep, there's three rules I live by when it comes to storytelling. You guys knew. Number one, it's got to be personal. It's got to be personal. The more personal, the richer you are. It's got to be personal. Guys, I've talked you into this, if I haven't already. Number two, you guys, if you're thinking about wealth, I would think about it in those terms right now. Secondly, it's got to be physical. Stories are physical living things, living, breathing, human things. You can't tell a story like a boring people tell stories they Well, when I grew up, I was poor, and then I walked over to the store, they wouldn't let me have a candy bar. It's boring, it's stupid. It is not physical. You have to embody the story with your physicality. You have to become your story, you guys. I know this might sound crazy to you, but the more physical you are in your life. Now, listen to me, the more physical you are in your life, the more money you make. People don't trust what comes out of anybody else's mouth anymore. They don't trust it. They trust your body 100% of the time. I wish you could see my body right now, because it is alive, and you could probably feel it even though I'm you can just hear my voice. You can hear the physicality of the residents of my voice. Now, the more physical you are in your life, the richer you are, and that's across the board. I don't care if you're a ballet dancer, I don't care if your speaker. I don't care what your occupation is. If you are physical and unapologetic about your physicality, then you're going to make a lot of money. But if you're walking around on eggshells, people know it. If you're walking around apologizing for your masculinity or your femininity, and you're like, you know, you're just half stepping everything. You see people like this all the time. What do you do with them? You dismiss them. But when somebody walks in and you turn your head, you know to look. You heard somebody come in behind you, you turn and look, why? Because they have a presence and they're unapologetic. That is a learned trait, or I should say it's relearning human trait. I've been trained by the greatest movement coach in the world, you guys. The only reason I was trained by him 17 years I was trained by him because every time I saw somebody acknowledge when they won the Academy Award an actor, they would acknowledge this guy. And I go, who the hell this guy that everyone keeps acknowledging keeps thanking for their Academy Award for some performance. I want to know what this guy's doing. I want to know what he's doing with these performers. And he told me where I went and met him. He goes, No one has ever won an award for what they said. No one it's what they did physically. That's how you win. And he's the guy who taught me well. So you guys, number one, the story has got to be personal. Number two, the story has got to be physical, unapologetic. It's so attractive when this happens. That's what I train people to do, because that's what I was trained to do. And then when all these CEOs and stuff started coming to the play, that's what they wanted, that now, you guys, they didn't know to ask me that. They just said, Can you teach my people to do what you do on stage? I go, of course, because I was taught the thing they wanted most was they wanted people to trust their sales people or their leadership team. They wanted all their employees, including them, to be physical in the world, because that is powerful. And you're going to watch this. You can watch this in elections. You can watch this in politicians. The reason they hide behind those podiums is their body betrays them. Their body betrays them. If I ever got hired to coach them, which I've always turned them down, I would put them out in the open like an animal so we can see their whole body, because that we can trust but we don't trust somebody standing behind a podium. Very critical.

Keith Weinhold 45:23

Well, there's a lot there. Yes, so much is conveyed through body language. People like decisiveness and commitment. You talk about how to make a story personal. When you had mentioned when you were nine years old, you laid out a 20 year plan for your life. When you said that me as a listener, that just makes me naturally want to lean in and ask a question about that and let you go on, for example. But when you talk about how stories need to be made personal, why don't we wrap up on how does storytelling work in business? Then say that a real estate investor is trying to attract co investors to his apartment building deal. For example, how would you use story there?

Bo Eason 46:07

Oh, yeah, great question. So many of my clients are people that raise money, whether it's for profit or non profit. They are in the business of building a company, and so they're always asking for money. Well, there's a guy used to run a studio in Hollywood, I think it was Warner Brothers, and he did an experiment. He was building a studio. So he needed millions and millions of dollars, so he went to all his rich friends, and he put a contract out in front of them. One contract only had numbers and percentages and columns written on it. Here's how much you'll invest. Tell us how much you'll make after five years all that stuff. The other contract was the same deal, no numbers, no monies, no percentages, only story, a story of belonging, a story of making a difference. He says, 100% choose the story contract, not the numbers, purpose. There's nothing. There's nothing to connect to. Yeah, I work in the finance world a lot. You guys, people, you know, high wealth, they always want to talk about numbers. And I'm like, rich people are all right brain. You know that? So every billionaire, every millionaire in the world, is right brain, not left right their right brain. But the people managing their money or raising their money are left brain. So they want to talk about numbers. And I'm saying, you guys, you can't talk about numbers, because rich people don't know what you're talking about. Rich people want to belong. They want to see themselves inside the business that you're building. So you better have a hell of a story, and that best story wins no matter what, Best Story wins. If you and me are both building a skyscraper in New York City. If I got a better story than you, guess what skyscrapers gonna get built? Mine. That's got nothing to do with money, because money is everywhere. Money's like air. It's more abundant than air and water. There's money everywhere. But what are rich people attracted to story? Why do you think they call it show business? Show, I'm the show, you're the show. You're the storyteller. The Business People bring the money to the show so rich people don't know how to make movies, they don't know how to tell stories, but they want to give you the money so that you can tell yours. Of course, that's how this thing works. That's why show and business always go together. There's a great saying rich men, when they sit down to dinner, they speak of art. When artists sit down to dinner, they speak of money. Artists sit down to dinner, they speak of money. When finance people sit down to dinner, they speak of art. So they're completing one another. You've got to be an artist. You've got to be able to tell your story, because their dreams and their big bank accounts relying on your vision of what you're going to build that makes you an artist, that makes you here go build what you've got to build here. I want to be a part of it.

Keith Weinhold 49:28

Yeah, I've never heard that before that's remarkable in using story to connect with others, something that seems to be bleeding and so badly needed for connectivity today. Well, Bo this has been great, talking about the best, talking about the power of story. You do so many things to help people in their own growth journey and to expand their own mindset. Tell us about your resource for that.

Bo Eason 49:56

You know what? Because the first thing that when I say, look. Got to find your personal story. Most people go, I don't have one. Well, that's just not true. Everybody has a story. I've worked with 1000s of people, and everyone's got a great, dramatic story. They just don't know it. So I'll send you a free story guide. It's a video course. It's going to give you some prompts, and we're going to find your powerful, personal signature story, so you can begin to use it today. So all you got to do is text me. So text PERSONAL STORY, the word PERSONAL STORY, one word personal story. Text that to this number, 323-310-5504. that's text. Personal story. One word, personal story, to 323-310-5504, text me that, and I will automatically send you a story guide. To start to uncover this thing,you'll start to realize, Wow, I do have a cool story that I can begin to tell whether I'm in the Oval Office or whether I'm in front of 1500 people at us in a speech, you can open with your personal story. It works and it attracts people to you. If I was in your guys shoes, you're interested in building wealth. Me too. If I'm building wealth, guess what? I'm beginning with personal story, and then I just get to go right to the top, because people are only interested in other people who have a vision bigger than the people have for themselves. And that's you. That's you. And your personal story, you have a vision that is bigger than the people have for themselves. If you can do that, guess what? People got to buy into that, they got to invest in, that they got to be around that. They got to marry that.

Keith Weinhold 51:47

Oh, you're so right. I really think this is going to help a lot of our listeners. You the listener, you probably have several good stories inside you, and Bo can really help bring them out, who have the benefit of seeing him on video, he's a really powerful speaker. I've had that same benefit of seeing him on video. You've only listened to him so far. Check out his resource if you think you can benefit from it. Bo, he said, It's surely been valuable. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Bo Eason 52:15

Keith, thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 52:23

Oh, such sharp insights from a motivating guy, Bo Eason, this week. And hey, if you have kids, are you going to wake them up by hard, rubbing their back in the morning and telling them you're the best? Well, it seemed to work for a little review about what you learned. Bo talked about how the standard is the gold medal, not the end goal, but that the gold medal is actually the standard. That's his mindset. So Bo made sure he met Al Pacino. When they got dinner, he found out that Pacino was the best, so he sought out the best and made sure to get around him. And a lot of people are scared to do that or even ask about the best. And, you know, I just can't help but think that that's like my life experience with women. In high school, I was just so shy and deathly afraid to ask anyone out. But in college and beyond, you know, sometimes I would ask out the most attractive woman, and they would usually say no, but, you know, I can't believe some of them actually would say yes. And see, the more that you do this, the more confident you get. And women like confidence, and can feel that coming from you. And then, so therefore your fear dissipates and it becomes easier to overcome. You have a unique fingerprint in this world, and you yourself. You do have an interesting story. I just know that you have it in you, but the chances are you've never even told your highest and best story to one other human being on this earth, not even once, and perhaps I haven't either. Bo said his stories need to be personal, physical and unapologetic, and his video, course, helps you find your personal story. And if you didn't catch that again, you can get it by texting one word PERSONALSTORY to 323-310-5504.

Coming up in future weeks here on the show, it's probably Yeah, more left brain strategic real estate investing content than right brained emotional content like today's show. But one right brain topic coming up on the show that I want to share with you. I want to tell you why, as a society, we hate Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, because he's wealthy. But yet, society does not dislike wealthy singers like Olivia Rodrigo, Taylor Swift and Dua Lipa. We love them even though they're wealthy. We. Don't resent an actor like Robert Downey, Jr for making $600 million as an actor in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So it's all about why we vilify successful entrepreneurs for their wealth, including landlords, yet somehow we glorify successful actors, athletes and entertainers for being wealthy. It's a case study that I've been working on. I shared some of it with our newsletter readers last week, and I'll have more on that here on the show. Signing off from the Grand New Orleans investment conference, the nation's longest running investing conference. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 3 55:43

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively

Keith Weinhold 56:03

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education.com.
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528: Real Estate is Up 490% Over the Last 40 Years
18 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses trends in the housing market, including the rising average age of first-time homebuyers and the mix of markets seeing price increases versus declines. He analyzes the potential impact of the incoming presidential administration's policies on real estate, particularly around inflation and interest rates. He is joined by Investor, Co-Founder and CEO of Family Freedom Investments, Dani Lynn Robison to highlight high-yield investment opportunities available, including up to 10% returns.

Home prices have fallen in six US cities.

The average age of a first time homebuyer rose to an astounding 38 years old.

Discover the top 10 states with the highest home price appreciation over the last 40 years.

The Trump Effect.

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Complete episode transcript:

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Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, home prices have fallen in six US cities. The average age of a first time home buyer soars to an astounding 38 years old. Then we take the long view breaking down how real estate is up a jaw dropping 490% since 1984 the Trump effect on real estate, then how you can earn an eight to 10% cash on cash return, hassle free. All today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:36

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:21

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:38

Welcome to GRE from St Louis, Missouri, to say Luis, Obispo, California, and across 188 nations worldwide, even Uzbekistan. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are inside. Get rich education every week. It's the show where I pretend that I'm not wearing pajama pants while here on the microphone. Hey, if you want to get rich, then focus on one thing. If you're already there and want to stay rich, then that's the point in which you want to diversify, because then you're already living your Daydream and you don't want to lose it. We'll talk about President elect Trump later in this week's show, and what it means for the future of the real estate market.

Donald Trump 2:20

Thank you verymuch. So this outfit you know is when they when he called us all garbage. How stupid. What a stupid word. That blows deplorable away. Don't you think.

Keith Weinhold 2:21

well, our content will surely be more substantive than that funny piece I expect to host Donald Trump here on the show for you in the future. After all, let's not forget, before politics, he was most known as a real estate investor, but he's going to be busy for the next four years, so it could be a while until you see him here, before we get to the Trump effect. Last week, the NAR released their annual report. It's called the profile of buyers and sellers. My gosh, what a surprise when it revealed that the average age of a first time homebuyer rose to an astounding 38 years old. 38 I mean, we're not talking about a person that's like, severely underemployed or something. We're talking about the average here. So for many, I mean, they are still a renter into their 40s. That is common now. I mean, at this rate, pretty soon, are Americans going to become homeowners once they hit retirement? I mean, my gosh, is that where we're headed? Or when one looks at their rites of passage, the milestones in their lives, will one achieve grand parenthood before buying a first home? Where are we going here? Not only is 38 years old, the all time high, as you might have expected, but that is up from age 35 just last year, amazing. And like I've discussed before, of course, the major reason that that age is up is due to lower affordability, and that's from higher prices and higher interest rates. The housing shortage is another factor here too. And all right, if that's not enough, the average age of us homebuyers, okay, this is just overall homebuyers, first timers and everyone else. That was 49 last year, and this spiked up to 56 this year. 56 and now back to first time homebuyers, the average income has also hit an all time high, $97,000 that is the average income of a first time homebuyer now. So what's important to keep in mind here is people are going to have to rent longer they're already. Renting longer. And some will choose to rent longer as a preference, and for others, they must rent longer. You can be the one to provide them with this rental housing, not the big hedge funds doing it, not private equity doing it. Invest in real estate. These trends mean higher occupancy rates and upward pressure on the rent amounts that you're going to be able to charge over time. I mean, this is demand, demand, demand for rental housing. They wish that they could buy that $300,000 starter home in the Midwest in southeast, but they have a hard time affording the down payments and qualifying for the loan they're after so you can rent it to them and be a profiteer longer. However, right now, there are six US cities where home prices are falling and now these are pretty mild corrections, but let's see if you can guess what the top reason for this is the number one reason about why these prices are falling among the nation's 50 largest metros. These are the six cities that have seen price corrections. New Orleans leads the way down the most down 4% Austin, Texas is also down almost 4% San Antonio down 2.7%, Tampa, Florida down one half of 1% Jacksonville down three tenths of 1% and then finally, Dallas, Texas, also down three tenths of 1% and in fact, I am visiting three of those six cities during a 10 day stretch that I'm on right here, right now. Over the weekend, I was in San Antonio, Texas. Today, the mobile GRE studio is in effect again, as I'm bringing you today's show from here in Austin, Texas, where I'm spending four days, and then I'll be in New Orleans in two days here. Well, the top reason for these falling home prices is in a word, supply. In fact, it's an oversupply in a lot of these six cities. And again, those six are New Orleans, Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, Jacksonville and Dallas. In fact, here in Austin, they are a, basically a national leader in over supply, they simply overbuilt, and it's going to take some time to absorb all that they've built. In fact, due to overbuilding, you've even got rents falling here in Austin, and I may look at some vacant apartments while I'm here to get the temperature of the market. Now, for some context, understand, though, that I spotlighted six falling markets out of the 50. All right, well, what about the other ones? Yes, that indeed means that 44, of America's 50 largest metros have seen year over year price increases, and one big reason for that is that many metros have housing shortages. Shortages are the norm, and by the way, all these figures are per the Zillow home index. In fact, a number of markets are up over 4% 5% 6% year over year, and the leaders all have seven to 8% year over year. Home price appreciation, they are San Jose, Hartford, New York City and Providence and a lot of the appreciation leaders are, yep, under supply, the opposite of what I'm seeing here in Austin.

Now, before I get to the headline of this week's episode, how national home prices were up a breathtaking 490% over the last 40 years. Let's talk about the Trump effect. It's still two months before Donald John Trump will be sworn in as a 47th president of the United States, and like macroeconomist Richard Duncan and I touched on on last week's show, Trump loves tariffs. Everyone knows that, and a tariff is like a tax on imported goods. Now follow along here. Higher tariffs mean then higher consumer prices, because the company or manufacturer has to pass that cost along to you. Higher prices means inflation. Higher inflation means that the Fed tends to keep interest rates higher longer in order to combat that inflation. So a Trump presidency means higher inflation in interest rates. Again, yes, at least those two things are correlated. And now think this through. Do you sense some cognitive dissonance here, under Trump's first term, back from 2017 to 2021 he wanted lower interest rates, and Trump was like highly vocal about how he wanted Jerome Powell to keep rates low in order to keep the economy healthy so the higher rates that Trump Tariffs are expected to bring then versus the lower rates that Trump wants is dissonant, incongruent, not in harmony. Bitcoin surged on the news of a second Trump presidency, because Trump is pro crypto. No see treasury yields, they also spiked upon the Trump presidency news just two weeks ago, I explained here on the show why higher inflation means higher treasury yields, which means higher mortgage rates. And it turned out that that was quite a timely explanation. The Trump election can mean a lower tax environment. We are hopeful that Trump will extend bonus depreciation, a really nice tax break for real estate investors. We could see some federal lands repurposed for housing construction. Trump said that he wanted to do that in order to add more housing supply. And no, don't worry. I don't think they're going to shut down and pave over Yellowstone and plug Old Faithful Geyser or anything like that. Okay, there's a lot of federal land that's, I guess, less remarkable, land that's being grazed on, and land suitable for more housing. Look for more move to loosen up zoning and regulation, and that's something where you'll find bipartisan agreement we've got to build to address the housing crisis. I mean, Trump has actually called zoning a killer, like he used that phrase you might see Trump extend the opportunity Zone program as well. The result could be more apartment construction in some of these blighted or low income urban areas, no matter what, and no matter who our president would have been. I mean, you're still gonna see housing supplies struggle to keep up with demand, because you just can't build fast enough. And you know something here, you never really know the future. People always want to speculate about the future that can be worth talking about. And you know that makes people think that they have the answer, but they're often wrong about one thing leading to the other, like how tariffs will end up meaning higher mortgage rates. I mean, you just don't know that for sure. Policies can change. Promises might not get followed up on, Black Swans can interject, and interest rates are one thing that are just wildly difficult to predict. And if you ever want to make another person look wrong, like if you desire to do that, here's all you need to do, ask them where interest rates are going to go in the future, and make them put that in writing. Okay, that is a guaranteed way to make somebody wrong. So everyone wants to know the future, but you've got to think through this in terms of probabilities and not certainties.

Now here's something encouraging, California voters, they shot down rent control expansion, though you might live in California, we are not exactly passionate about investing in California property for pretty well documented reasons, but sometimes things that start in New York and California in those particular states, they can expand to the nation. So it's worth paying attention to some of these things, and California voters resoundly rejected what is known as Proposition 33 rent control expansion. Almost 62% voted no on that. So you've got bipartisan alignment on how rent control backfires on renters in this was the third time in six years that California voters shot down rent control expansion. Great. That is great because rent control, it's not good for you, the investor, long term. It's not even good for the tenant, and it's certainly not good for the community either. I mean, they are collectivist state price controls.

Well, let's look at another place where prices are not being controlled for sure, and that is the fact that overall, US home prices have appreciated a whopping 490% since 1984 Yes, 490% over the last 40 years, therefore almost a 5x price increase. Let's break this down, and then I'll tell you what it means for the future too. This is the shift in US home prices from August 1984 to August 2024 so therefore it starts from mid Reagan presidency, when the median home price was $81,000 at that time. Okay, so this is our starting point, 1984 that's the year Ghostbusters hit movie theaters. Kareem Abdul Jabbar broke the all time NBA scoring record. And shows that debuted on television that year were Miami, Vice night, court, punky, Brewster. Are Charles in Charge? Have you heard of these shows? Another TV oh boy, another TV show that debuted in 1984 Well, Chase, are you ready for this? Let me give you a hint, Temple University. And how about jello? Pudding pops? Yes, I'm talking about the Cosby Show, which just feels kind of different to talk about anymore, ever since Bill Cosby's illicit misconduct there. And no, we are not going to play a snippet of the Cosby Show theme music. Please don't play it. You know, we totally do something like that here, but we're not this time. Okay? Well, with home prices surging and astounding 490% since that year, 1984 Okay, let's break down the areas that have appreciated the most and least and see what that means. And you might remember that in our newsletter, I sent you this map that shows the level of each individual state's 40 year price search. Oh, this is great. It's just the best real estate map I've seen in a while. What it shows is that coastal states are where home prices have risen the most. In general, the top 10 in appreciation in order are Washington State up 810% yes, that's more than 8x in the last 40 years. The next highest home appreciation over the last four decades in order is Oregon, Rhode Island, California, and then it's Hawaii, Montana, Massachusetts, Maine, Idaho. And 10th is Utah, all right. Well, why have coastal states had this higher real estate run up over time? Well, it's where building constraints exist that limits the housing supply. That's both geographic constraints, like, for example, the ocean's edge literally limits build space there. Well, the coasts are also where you tend to have more building regulation. Coasts are where incomes have risen the most those residents can afford more for housing. So home prices are then higher. I mean, just look at the leader Washington state. That's where you've got the headquarters for Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, Expedia and more. They're all there now, taxes, though, they do tend to be highest in coastal states as well, so you're paying more for property, and you're also paying more in all types of taxes in a lot of cases. And as we know, rental properties usually don't work as well on the coasts, coastal rents haven't risen as much as home prices, and these places, they tend to have those laws and regulations that often favor tenants over landlords. And if you're looking at the map here like I am, you're going to note that some Rocky Mountain states have flexed their appreciation muscles as well. Now, Tennessee and the Texas triangle, they kind of decided to join the appreciation party fashionably late, as you look over 40 years. Yes, Tennessee and Texas, they really only started their big appreciation climb about a decade ago. All right, so those are some of the big winners every year since Punky Brewster debuted on television. Well, with today's rise of remote work and lower home affordability, the nation's interior, that's what looks increasingly desirable for property ownership the Midwest, the Great Plains, parts of the south and parts of the inland northeast. That makes these areas look like comparative deals where prices haven't wildly run up over the decades. And though you hear about return to Office policies, because a few major companies announce these return to Office policies. I mean, remote work is still up fully 15% year over year, and housing preferences are shifting as employees look to suburban Metro outskirts for more affordable homes so they're freed from the need to factor in these lengthy commutes in their lives like they had to previously. Now, among states that don't have strong in migration, one that could really shine is a place like Ohio. Ohio has appreciated less than most states still at 334% over the past four decades. Again, 490% is The National number. Ohio boasts tons of diverse industry, a low cost of living. They've got the seventh highest population in the nation. They have a stable population count for rental property owners. It has strong laws favoring landlords and Ohio. Is just a day's drive from half of North America's population. All right, so a smart listener like you is probably asking yourself a question right now, like, Okay, how does this 40 year stretches 490% rise in national home prices compare to inflation, and how does it compare to incomes? Over this time there's been 201% overall inflation and us, median household incomes have risen 260% and yeah, that 201% inflation number is suspect, just like most any inflation figure is inflation could certainly be higher than that, because most inflation measures likely understate the true diminished purchasing power of your dollar, and see the 490% rise. Although it sounds like a staggering number, and it still kind of is. It's also like, well, of course, it takes almost five times as many dollars to buy a home today, because each dollar's value is way down. What else has changed in the last 40 years? Well, houses are larger now than they were then. The median home size has grown 150% since 1980 and at the same time, the family size is smaller, fewer people live in each home, so everyone has more space. And I discussed those types of things in detail with you before, so I won't get into all of that again. Today's homes have better amenities too. So really, the point is, if you are paying more on an inflation adjusted basis, you are getting more and it's also more likely that two parents are working today rather than one, in order to make those payments more affordable. And that fact right there that is not a great lifestyle outcome. Another way to say it is that it takes two to afford a home today rather than one. But yet, hey, that is society. All right. So with that understanding, let's look at the future. I completely believe that real estate values can soar another 490% over the next 40 years. I mean, even 600 or 700% is not out of the question, and there are a lot of reasons for this. I mean, chiefly, we're starting from a base here of a low housing supply, and we've got strong demographic demand, and we can almost certainly expect more monetary inflation the next four decades. The inflation rate is the one thing that nobody knows. 40 years ago, mortgage rates were 14% today, they're only at about half of that level. And see today's median home price of over 400k like that figure would have seemed unfathomable to people back in 1984 but indeed, the price nearly 5x So similarly, another 490% or about 5x again, means that it is completely fathomable for the median us home to cost $2 million in another 40 years. That's about 5x of today's prices. And although that might sound unrealistic Now, that sounds just as unrealistic as today's price did to anyone from 1984 so really a super interesting way to think about home price appreciation. There, you might even make the case that home values, not prices, home values, they're not up that much at all. I mean, most of that is just that prices have adjusted for inflation, the value is about the same, although I'd still say that the value is up somewhat. So really, that's my thought there, and I duly regret bringing Bill Cosby into this whole thing. I ruined it.

I've been coming to you here from Austin, Texas, where I've been checking out the real estate market. I've got more for you straight ahead. It is a really profitable idea. I'm Keith Weinhold. There will only ever be one episode, 528, of the GRE podcast, and you're listening to it,

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Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS. 42056, they've provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com, that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.

Robert Kiyosaki 26:05

this Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold,and there is I respect Keith, He's a very strong, smart, bright young man.

Keith Weinhold 26:25

Welcome back to GRE. We are grateful to have on the show today, the co founder and CEO of the whole operation, Freedom family Investments. They are seven, soon to be eight. I just learned real estate centric companies based in Centerville, Ohio. The other co founder is her husband, Flip, whom you've heard on the show before. Hey, it's terrific to have back. Danni-Lynn Robinson,

Dani-Lynn Robison 26:50

thank you so much, Keith. I love talking to you.

Keith Weinhold 26:54

It's the same here. You've been in real estate since 2008 and one of the things that you do is you have this perfect track record of always returning capital to your individual private investors, loans that they make to you, and paying 100% of the returns as promised, even if you yourselves end up losing money on a particular deal. And in fact, you the listener, you probably heard me talk about how I personally participate for a high yield return with them myself, with Danny Lynn's company backing me. You've heard that ad near the middle of GRE episodes, and you yourself can do this too. Individual investors can get a high yielding return, and it's paid to you as cash. So Danny Lynn, tell us about how it works. Generally.

Dani-Lynn Robison 27:40

I love that you started off with that particular statement, because I will tell you that every time I've been on a podcast of yours, the number one thing I hear when people get on the phone was you said on that podcast that even if you lose money, that I still get my return. And I have never heard of that before, so tell me more. So that was a perfect lead in because I think that what we're trying to do is just do a very good job of serving the people who help us build so as you said, we're on company number seven. We're building company number eight. And the reason that we've gotten to the stage that we are today is because we've had private lenders and people who invest in our syndication, our Master notes and our funds program, that investment has allowed us to buy properties, flip properties, buy apartments, flip apartments, and allowed them to get a return at the same time. And I've talked about the fact that we do volume as we've grown, we'll do 10 deals in any given month, and maybe one or two of them are like we find something, you know, in the wall that we didn't expect. Maybe we walk in and the past tenant left it in shambles and caused more damage to the property than we anticipated when we first went in. That's the nature of real estate, and that's the risk you take when you're an active real estate investor. So we knew when we were building our businesses that if we just did volume, that was going to happen, and we weren't going to run away from that fact, or take risk upon us or our investors by not mitigating it, by not doing volume. So you'll see situations where somebody does one flip a month, and that happens to them, and it's catastrophic when you're doing 10, and it happens which it will then you know that the other eight are going to bring the profit in. And so that it is easy for us to say, Thank you, Keith, for investing in us. This particular deal. We didn't lose any money on, but these eight we made a lot of money on, and that ensures that we can always pay you back in full on time, even if we lost money on a deal. And I think when that is explained to people on the phone, they start understanding why we can pay back everything as promised, even if we lose money, because we are still profitable as a company. And so that process of doing volume and having people. People trust us with their funds. As we've grown, has allowed us to get to Company Number eight, because, as we talked about right before we press record, one of the best things for us, Flip says, I love being Santa Claus. And Santa Claus is when you get that email or that check in the bank account that says, I just made money and I didn't have to do anything. I just partnered with Flip, Danny and the freedom team to do what they do already. I provided the money. They did the work. We all won together.

Keith Weinhold 30:29

Why does no real estate rehabber ever find gold bars behind a wallwhen they go in in order to turn over a property? Right? It's usually, you know, evidence of a leak or something bad, usually not something good going on back there. But yes, you do this volume across all these companies. So therefore, when you do find a leak behind a wall, and that particular deal didn't work out for a 100k rehab home, it sure can't bring down the entire operation. Danny Lynn, I've invested with you in your private money lending program for years now, and just been very open with my audience. I've let them know that I've been receiving an 8% return from you paid in cash. But one reason I'm having you back now to help our audience is because you now offer yields up to 10% so even better than when I got in. So tell us about that.

Dani-Lynn Robison 31:24

So we are always having conversations with our investors about what's going on in their investing journey, what are they looking for, and we want to create those win wins. And right now, with everything that's going on in the market, what we learned is liquidity is one of the most important pieces, because there's here, there's some uncertainty, and people want to invest. They don't want their money sitting idle and losing, having an eroding to inflation. They want to put it to work, but they want to have access to it. And so we have been changing and tweaking our programs to meet the needs of our investors, and making sure that we are buying properties that can then have that arbitrage to get us the profit we need to pay back our investors, but while we're still making a profit many times right now in this market, that does mean we're buying multi family properties, because there's so many different advantages to multi family properties, it does take a lot of underwriting to get there, but that's where, for the last, I would say, six to 12 months, we've been really focused in on that in order to increase the returns and have everybody just creating that win win.

Keith Weinhold 32:32

I'm really glad that you talked about multifamily properties, because I've talked with the audience about how the sector is beaten down. In a lot of places, you can get 30% discounts on multifamily apartment buildings, and we know that the long term demand is going to be there for occupancy in apartment buildings. Demographics is destiny, and we talk about this timing of having you on and now you're offering up to 8% discussing this, say, two and a half years ago, I don't think the timing was as good. That's when CPI inflation peaked at 9.1% so you really weren't getting a real yield. You need to subtract inflation from your yield in order to get a real return. And now you're getting a substantial real return. Since inflation is near 2% top online savings accounts, those top interest rates, they are falling with each successive federal funds rate cut, and most expect that those yields are going to continue to fall. People invest in bonds all the time, but the yield on the 10 year T note has been around 4% or quite a while. You don't have to settle for yields like that. And Danny Lynn, I love that you brought up the word arbitrage. This should be an arbitrage play for you the listener. But of course, for Danny Lynn, it needs to be an arbitrage play as well, because if she and her family of companies over there are paying you a yield of up to 10% they need to make arbitrage ontop of that themselves. And if you're a new listener, you might be skeptical of how you could reliably do that in real estate, but when you understand that real estate pays up to five ways at the same time and 30 to 40% total rate of returns without inordinate risk, are not dream land, the reality you can begin to understand the arbitrage. But Danny Lynn, can you tell us a bit more about how you do create that arbitrage to reliably pay a return of up to 10% How do you yourselves beat that in there?

Dani-Lynn Robison 34:26

That's where it comes down to multifamily. For us, the single family market has slowed down a little bit, and so multifamily is enabling us to do bigger things. But on a long term basis, we've built our companies up enough to a point where we are businesses are producing the cash flow that we need so we can pay our investors a higher return using the cash flow of the properties, and our long term wealth as a company is coming from down the line of the appreciation, especially in multifamily, the forced appreciation, and that refinance and that when. Fall. So everything that we structure is preferred returns, meaning we always pay our investors first and we come last when it comes to multifamily, those five ways start to compound over time, and that's what we really win, is because we know we're waiting, but we're waiting for a big return in 3,5,7, years. Sometimes we're waiting 1020, years, and our investors in the meantime are getting a really nice return better than they can in most other places, because we're willing to forfeit our current returns in this scenario, because our other businesses are producing the cash flow that we need.

Keith Weinhold 35:38

That's terrific. Tell us a bit about the program details. Then how is this note? Right? Because the investor, as soon as they make an investment with you, they do hold on to a note. Just tell us about how that's secured before we get into the details.

Dani-Lynn Robison 35:53

So it depends on the investment opportunity. Some investments are going to be secured by a note by the property. Some investments are going to be secured by a note by the business. Some investments are going to be secured by the fund itself. You're an actual owner, like or the syndication, an actual owner of what that fund is participating in. So every piece of security is a little bit different. So when you jump on the phone with us. We're asking a lot of questions, and the number one question that we ask is, what are your goals? Because if you do want liquidity, we know exactly where you're going to go. And some people are wanting liquidity for peace of mind, so that they can earn a higher return, but have access to the cash if they want it. Some investors are saying, Hey, I know there's about to be a lot of opportunities. So I want my money earning for me, but I want to be able to grab it, to be able to invest in these future opportunities that are going to come my way when I want access to the capital for that reason. Then there's other investors that are set it and forget it. Look. I like you guys. I trust you guys. I've vetted you guys. I've done my due diligence on you guys. I want to sit my money in there for three, five years. Some want tax benefits. And so what we do is we have, like, this table of investments with like, little check boxes. And as people tell us their goals, we're like, okay, they're there. They're by the end of the conversation, we're saying, here's the two investment opportunities we think fits what you like and what is going to meet your needs? What do you think? And then we start going with question and answers back and forth so they can fully understand it.

Keith Weinhold 37:27

We're talking about how to get a high yield paid to you regularly in cash with Danny Lynn Robi son, co founder of freedom family investments. Yeah. Danny Lynn, why don't you tell us then about this up to 10% return. But you do have some option based on people's needs for the duration of the investment, which gets into the liquidity and the minimum investment amount and being accredited versus not accredited. So tell us about some of those distinctions, differences and trade offs.

Dani-Lynn Robison 37:55

There's the accredited and non accredited piece, which is really the first piece that you should be talking about when you jump on the phone, because the answer to that question depends on where, like we first check the box of which investment opportunity is going to be right for you. Accredited investors can invest in both. Non accredited investors can only invest in non accredited options. So accredited, I'm sure you've explained many times on the podcast, is a million dollars net worth, minus your primary residence, or earning $200,000 for the last two years, and you expect to earn it again. Or if you're a married couple, earning $300,000 a year for the last two years and you expect to do it again, that would be an accredited investor. So if you qualify there, we've got multiple opportunities. Then if you're wanting liquidity, then, again, that's a checkbox for us that says liquidity fund. That's where you want to be learning more about you want to learn about those interest rates the liquidity fund is seven, eight and 10% based on how long you want to put your money to work. So some people say, hey, one year is good. That gives me exactly the liquidity I need, and that's going to give me a higher rate of return, which is 8% some people think three years is liquid. It's interesting to me, what people perceive as liquid, because anybody who's invested in a syndication knows sometimes that's five, seven and 10 years. So they view a three year investment at 10% Hey, that's liquid to me. I didn't have to lock it up for five, seven and 10 years. And then some people, 90 days is liquid. And so we have the liquidity fund seven, eight and 10% depending on which class you want to go in, 7% is 90 days, 8% is one year. 10% is three years. That's for accredited investors. We have our masternote program, which is for non accredited investors, that is 8% for two years, and 10% I think, for three years, and then we have Lincoln village, and that one is closing soon. I think we're at the final $1 million to raise. That is 12, 13, and 14% but that also includes tax benefits. The end, it is a five or probably seven year timeline, because it's a 48 unit apartment in Columbus, Ohio, if we refinance in three years, yay. Everybody wins. But I always set expectations it could be a longer timeline. And so those are the main opportunities that are available based on accredited, non accredited and your returns.

Keith Weinhold 40:20

Well, the yield on the 10 year T note is 4% but here, the yield on the one year private note is substantially higher. Well, Danny Lynn, do you have any last things to tell us before you let us know how we can learn more?

Dani-Lynn Robison 40:34

I think what's important is a trust. When I'm on the phone, I get three questions. Where do I start? Which path is right for me and who do I trust? And one of my biggest investors says Danny, I think number three question of Who do I trust is the most important one. So I think it's really important to get on the phone to ask questions, to ask, Hey, what didn't I ask that I should have asked? What should I know that I don't know? Because sometimes you don't know the right questions to ask, and so we have this graph of all the things you could be looking for in an investment that people don't even realize might be very important to them. So I think what is most important is just taking the first step of starting the conversation. Once you start the conversation, you start to learn, you start to get educated, you start to understand what your true goals really are, and then you can make an A confident decision, as opposed to what many of us do is, you know, sit on our hands for a little bit because we're just nervous. We're so nervous about losing money or we don't know who to trust, and we're so busy that a year passes by and we just didn't take action. So I just encourage people a 15 minute phone call might change the game for you and allow you to get started

Keith Weinhold 41:45

right indecision really is a decision in itself, a decision to not do anything and have some of your cash be atrophied to inflation. Tell the audience how they can learn more

Dani-Lynn Robison 41:58

They can text the word FAMILY to 66866 and that is going to connect you with our team, and we're going to reach out, hopefully, set up a call and get that conversation started.

Keith Weinhold 42:09

Oh. Danny Lynn, this is going to help a lot of people. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Dani-Lynn Robison 42:13

Thank you, Keith,

Keith Weinhold 42:14

yeah, well, I think you know that I'm more of a borrower than I am lender, but I'm a lender in this case. So for liquid funds, this has been a reliable source for an 8% liquid return without any hassle. I mean, it's about as passive as it gets. Of course, when you store money in a bank. You're giving the bank a loan as well, even though you might not have thought about it that way. Well, if you're looking for something a little less liquid, like a three year investment duration, you are going to get a higher return than 8% here. There are good options here if you're accredited or not accredited, and you don't have to invest in one specific apartment project either, like Lincoln village that Danny Lynn mentioned, and over there at her company, like she said, yeah, those are the three questions you can ask. Where do I start? Which path is right for me, and who do I trust? And on the phone really part of that second question, which path is right for me can be to ask Danny Lynn's team about how to get this highly passive return in the most tax efficient way for you.

There's so much vital content coming up here on the show in the future. Next week, it's the first time we'll have a former NFL player on the show is we'll discuss success principles that you can use in business and life, highly motivational stuff coming there in future weeks. So much more economics and real estate investing. Content is coming, including I've got an analysis of online search results, and you'll see what amenities tenants are really searching for today when they look for rental housing. And of course, as the year gets closer to the end, next month, I am going to reveal GRE 's home price growth forecast for 2025 and just as importantly, I will follow up with last year's prediction too. We'll look back at it and then see how it really turned out for high yield returns on your savings. You don't have to settle for disappointing interest rates where you spin your wheels because you're barely beating inflation. Learn more. Set up a call. Just text FAMILY to 66866 I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream

Speaker 2 44:45

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential. For profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 45:13

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com you
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527: Countdown to Disaster—Four Threats Facing the U.S. with Richard Duncan
11 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses the current state of the US economy, noting that while it is considered strong by conventional measures, there are four major threats on the horizon that the country is not doing enough to address. He’s joined by our guest, macroeconomic expert, Richard Duncan to discuss these topics. Richard proposes a solution that could strengthen the US's competitive position against China.

Shifting from Capitalism to Creditism.

Also, hear about the risks facing the real estate and stock markets in the near-term, such as the historically high wealth-to-income ratio and the ongoing quantitative tightening by the Federal Reserve.

Learn more about Richard’s work through his video newsletter, Macro Watch. Use discount code GRE for 50% off at:

RichardDuncanEconomics.com

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/527

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or e-mail: [email protected]

Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, per conventional measures, today's us. Economy is strong, but there are four vicious threats on the horizon, and we're not doing enough about them. Our macroeconomist guests will discuss that with us today. How alarming is it, and what's the solution to our crises, this week on get rich education,

Speaker 1 0:27

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:28

Welcome to GRE from Fort Wayne, Indiana to Fort Lee New Jersey and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are back inside get rich education. We've been here for you, every single week since 2014 coming off of an election last week, this spurs more macroeconomic thought, monetary and fiscal policy, and more than that. And you know, one thing that I'm always looking for are signs of inflation versus deflation, because we live in a long term inflationary world. Well, you wouldn't keep a million bucks under a mattress because it would only be worth 300k in a few decades. But in deflation, you would flip your strategy and actually be a saver. You might keep millions out of the mattress, because deflation would actually increase the purchasing power of every single one of your dollars. Now, I've got a pretty unpopular take for you here at some point, probably now you've got to give the Fed credit for a soft landing. And what does a soft landing mean? Exactly. It means bringing down inflation without putting the economy into a recession. Well, inflation is down to about 2% now, unemployment is still low, near 4% and GDP growth for last quarter came in at 2.8% okay, yes, I sure understand that those benefits are distributed unevenly, but at this point, how much more of a soft landing Do you really want? And by the way, this sure doesn't mean that I love the Federal Reserve. I mean, they get no credit from me for not jumping on inflation sooner, when it peaked two and a half years ago, or even before that point, well, those high consumer prices as a result of that are still with us, and that's a problem, and they got that part wrong. We're about to talk with our global macroeconomic expert, really. He is one of the foremost authorities in the entire world today. We're going to talk about four major catastrophes the US economic future faces. One of those four is our ballooning national debt and deficit. And to review that for you, first, the debt is our overall accumulation of debt over the years now at 36 trillion. And when it comes to these awful, dreadful debt and deficit issues, I will ask our guests the question, when is it game over? Where is that tipping point? What would need to happen and the deficit? Okay, that refers to the annual shortfall, the annual thing, that shortfall that our bloated government keeps coming up with at the end of every year, all right, so therefore revenue minus spending equals deficit. Another way to say that is income minus expenses equals a deficit when the expenses are greater than the income. Well, that figure is near $2 trillion we're spending 2 trillion more than we raise in revenue each year. And here's an example. I'll use real world numbers rounded off to the nearest trillion. So if the government's annual revenue is only 5 trillion and you have to subtract out spending, which is 7 trillion, that could. Gives us an annual deficit of 2 trillion, pretty simple stuff, and that more or less gets added onto our overall debt of 36 trillion. Another major problem is this growing competition from China. Yes, I know that people like to discuss their demographic problems, but still, their population is more than four times the US population, and you learn about what other advantages they have over us and what we direly need to do to catch up. In our guests opinion, these issues incur some rather detailed explanations. So I'm really going to let our guest expert takeover for a while today, this weekend, I will be in San Antonio, Texas. San Antonio is an uptrending real estate market because they are really a beneficiary in distribution with their proximity to Mexico in the near shoring movement that's taking place. And then I will be in Austin, Texas, for a few days, Austin is one of the few major US metros that have seen rents substantially decline recently. I'll bring you next week's show from Austin, where I might talk more about that. Then, from the 20th to the 24th of this month, I'll be in New Orleans at the famed New Orleans investment conference, where they're pulling out all the stops at the 50th anniversary of the event, and that is the longest running investment event in America and perhaps the world. I hope to meet some of you there in New Orleans, just like I do each time I'm at the event. Let's talk about the bigger picture economy that your real estate and investments float within next.

This week's guest is the author of four books analyzing the crises that brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in recent decades. One of the books forecast the 2008 global financial crisis with great accuracy. We're going to discuss future crises here today, before we're done, he has worked as an equities and Investment Analyst, and then he went on to hold some rather esteemed roles at the World Bank in DC and as a consultant to the IMF in Asia. He joins us from Thailand today. He now publishes a video newsletter called macro watch, and long time listeners know that today's guest was also this show's very first guest that was back on GRE podcast episode seven, only 10 years ago now, in November 2014, and he's really become quite the friend of the show, and we've looked out for each other ever since. It's terrific to have back global macro economist Richard Duncan

Richard Duncan 7:46

Keith, hey, thank you for having me back. It's great to speak with you again.

Keith Weinhold 7:50

Oh, it's so good to have you here an entire decade of our lives. And as times change, economies are surely dynamic, and you're so good at spotlighting crises and explaining them in a way to people that they can understand. So Richard, why don't you talk to us now about risks facing the nation? Yes, I'm talking about the United States.

Richard Duncan 8:15

A lot of podcasts focus on all the problems the United States is facing, and it is certainly true that the United States is facing very serious risk. So I'd like to start off this conversation telling you what I think the greatest risk facing our country are. There are four main things I'd like to hit on. The first is something you mentioned to me before in our exchange of emails, is that the US government does have a very high level of government debt relative to GDP, and the budget deficits are large. So that's problem number one. Problem number two, in my opinion, looking at this from where I live in Asia, is that the United States is at risk of being conquered by China in the not too distant future. Risk Number Two. Risk Number three, we have very serious domestic political divisions within the United States. Risk Number four is that our post capitalist economic system, which I call creditism, must have credit growth to survive. If credit contracts, then our economy will spiral into a Great Depression that will be probably worse than the one of the 1930s so those are the big four problems that we have, and it doesn't do anyone any good just to talk about our country's problems if you don't offer a solution to them. So in my opinion, all of these problems can be overcome by accelerating economic growth in the United States, while all of these problems would be made very much worse by anything that causes us economic growth to slow down. The way to make the US economy grow much faster is to have the US Government finance a very, very large investment in the industries and technologies of the future over the next 10 years, starting immediately. The alternative austerity would cause the economy to spiral down into deflation. We'd like your listeners to think of austerity when they hear the word austerity. I'd like them to think of the word death. It's austerity is equal to death. Yeah, the US doesn't have to be a declining power. The first American Century doesn't have to be the last. It can be the first of many. The solution for driving the US economy to grow much more rapidly and solving all four of the problems that I mentioned above is a US sovereign wealth fund. Thank heavens. Both parties now support the establishment of a US sovereign wealth fund. On September 5, former President Trump came out in support of establishing a US sovereign wealth fund, and on the following day, the Biden administration said, then working on this for months and had a plan that they were developing. So this is fantastic news for the United States. It offers great hope for solving all of our greatest problems. And I'd like to spend, you know, a few minutes explaining to your listeners what a US sovereign wealth fund is, yes, urgently necessary, and why both parties have now come to understand why this is important to establish.

Keith Weinhold 11:27

Yeah, please tell us why you think the US sovereign wealth fund is so urgently needed, and what it is because for even longer than the 10 years since you were first here, for about 15 years now, you have championed and promoted this US sovereign wealth fund. You discussed it on CNBC Squawk Box and all over the place. Last year, you presented about it in a speech in DC to 15 members of the House, Ways and Means Committee. So tell us about the US sovereign wealth fund and why you think it's urgently needed.

Richard Duncan 11:56

Let's begin with, what is a sovereign wealth fund? Well, effectively, a sovereign wealth fund is where a country invest in individual companies or even in startups. There are sovereign wealth funds all around the world. Norway has the largest, Singapore has two very effective ones called gdic and Temasek, which had been enormously profitable and successful, and it made the people in Singapore much richer. So a sovereign wealth fund in the United States would be an investment bond financed by the United States government with the US. This investment fund would take stakes in existing companies and also in startup companies, hopefully on a very large scale. Now, some people have asked, Why is this framework necessary? Why do we need a sovereign wealth fund to do that when the government is already making investments in the military, for instance, and funding some R and D research? Well, the difference between what the government is doing now and a sovereign wealth fund is with a sovereign wealth fund, the government would actually keep equity stakes in these companies that they invest in, meaning that when these companies they invest in become enormously profitable, the profits would be owned by every American. The Americans would have the equity stakes in all of the investments that this sovereign wealth fund makes. And it would be a situation where the government provides the financing, but the private sector manages the companies. The government just finances these companies in new industries and new technologies, and the government has the ability to invest on a very much larger scale than the private sector does. For example, The United States has a lot of great companies in the private sector that have accomplished really, truly great things in recent years and long past as well. But these private sector companies cannot invest on the same scale that the Chinese government can. The Chinese government is investing on a much larger scale than any of the American companies could ever dream to invest on. And that's explains why China is overtaking us now technologically, and if they continue to invest at a rapid rate that they're doing currently, then before long, there are going to be far ahead of us technologically and therefore economically, and more worryingly, militarily, the US government has the ability to invest truly on a multi trillion dollar scale over the next decade in new industries and technologies, things like artificial intelligence, quantum computing, nanotech, biotech, genetic engineering and developing energy sources like fusion, and it has the ability to do this on such a large scale that it would be certain to succeed. And once these companies start creating cancer vaccines or fusion, for instance, they would be enormously profitable, and they could be listed on. NASDAQ at multi trillion dollar valuations, and the American public would own equity stakes in these companies, and would then would directly reap the rewards of these profits that these companies would generate. That is what a sovereign wealth fund is, why it's desperately needed, is, well, first of all, we should do it, because we can easily afford to do it. And the results, the breakthroughs, the technological breakthroughs and medical miracles that these sorts of companies would produce, would we really have the shot of curing all the diseases and radically extending life expectancy, developing sources of limitless energy that would bring down the cost of energy radically. Just across the board, it would induce a technological revolution that would turbo charge us economic growth, create UNDRIP wealth, and at the same time, shore up US national security in the face of this growing threat from China. So for all of those reasons, it is urgently necessary. In my opinion.

Keith Weinhold 16:04

both Norway and Singapore have had similar models to this. US sovereign wealth fund, and we certainly think of those two nations as prosperous places, tell me more about why it's a success so the government finances it does that incentivize companies to therefore take more risk?

Richard Duncan 16:25

It allows them to invest more. It allows them to invest on a much larger scale than that. Could if they have to rely on their own funding sources. Rather than investing millions of dollars, they could invest billions of dollars or 10s of billions of dollars. For instance, at the moment, the National Cancer Institute in the United States, this annual budget is $6 billion a year. $6 billion a year is not curing cancer. If we look back a few years ago, the Fed was creating $120 billion a month through quantitative easing per month. So with just 5% of one month of QE, you could double the National Cancer Institute's budget. Now that's not what this sovereign wealth fund would do. That just illustrates the scale. How much greater the scale would be that the government could invest on relative to what is currently being invested at the moment by the government and by the private sector combined.

Keith Weinhold 17:28

Do any critics ever ask about Wait? Is this too much government intervention into the free market? Is this a move away from capitalism? What do you say to those sort of critics?

Richard Duncan 17:38

I say to them that capitalism died in World War One. It certainly didn't survive the 20th century. Now the government. In the 19th century, we had capitalism. The government had very little involvement in the economy then and gold was money. But now gold is no longer money. The Fed creates some money. Government spending is something like nearly $7 trillion out of a GDP. That is around just not quite $30 trillion yet. So the government has been directing the economy going back at least since World War Two. This hasn't been capitalism for a very long time. Under capitalism, the private sector made investments, and some businessmen would make profits from their investments, and they would save that profit as capital and reinvest that capital. That's how capitalism grew. That's why they called it capitalism. It was based on capital accumulation and investment. But that's not how our economic system has worked for decades. Our system now is not driven by investment and saving by the private sector. It's driven by credit creation and consumption and more credit creation and more consumption and our economies has now been transformed from capitalism. It has evolved into creditism, with the government playing the directing role. So total credit in the United States, just last quarter blew through $100 trillion for the first time. By what I mean by total credit is the same thing as total debt. Total credit is equal to total debt. So this is all the debt of all sectors of the economy, the government sector, the household sector, the corporate sector, the financial sector, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac all the sectors of the economy, it just went through $100 trillion and Breda ism has created very rapid growth, especially all around the world, not only in the United States, because it has allowed the US economy to grow so rapidly and to import so much from other countries that this is why The Asian miracle occurred. I've lived through the Asian miracle because the US has been running massively large trade deficits since the early 1980s and all these countries in Asia have been running massively large trade surpluses, and all this spending that the Americans have been doing has been fueled by this rapidly. Radically expansion of credit. Total credit first went through $1 trillion in 1964 now it's $100,000,000,000,000. 60 years later. Now our system is not capitalism. The government is very involved. Anytime there's any problem with the economy, the government steps in. In 2008 the government prevented a new Great Depression when the private sector the households defaulted on their debts and caused all the banks to fail, and Freddie Mac did fail and had to be taken over by the government. So at that time, we narrowly avoided a Great Depression, because the government increased its budget deficits by more than a trillion dollars a year for four years in a row, and the Fed expanded. The Fed created three and a half trillion dollars between the end of 2007 and 2014, expanding its balance sheet by about five times. So that's not capitalism. We don't have capitalism. So people who are worried about us abandoning capitalism. They're behind the times that happened a long time ago. That shouldn't be a concern. They should be aware now that we are competing against players who don't play by the capitalist rules of little government intervention in the markets we're now competing against China, and China is one giant sovereign wealth fund intent on dominating the world by investing very aggressively in new industries and technologies. In the year 2000 the United States invested, I think, 10 times as much in research and development as China did. But now China is actually investing more in research and development and the US is and that explains why China is ahead in so many areas of technology. They had 5g years before we did. They are the leaders in electric vehicles and batteries. We have to put up 100% tariffs to keep out electric vehicles from China because they're so much better than our electric vehicles. They dominate solar panels. And are worse, they have hypersonic missiles and we don't, and I'm sure they have other military advantages that we don't, because they invest much more aggressively in new industries and technologies than our government does. And if we don't rectify this quickly, then we are soon going to be overtaken by China militarily, and our national security is at risk, much more than most Americans understand. But this realization has slowly grown on policymakers in Washington, and now both parties are worried about this, and this is why we have this growing fear of China, and why we have proposals to limit technology transfers to China, and this is why we've done things like the chips and science act, where the government has agreed to finance a $280 billion investment in new industries and technologies a couple of years ago, with 50 billion of that going into setting up manufacturing facilities within the in the US to create semiconductors, rather than relying solely on Taiwan to obtain all of our semiconductors, because China could take Taiwan at any moment, and then then he would end up with all the semiconductor chips that go into powering artificial intelligence. And whoever develops Artificial General Intelligence first is going to rule the world, and therefore it had better be the United States rather than China, because we don't want to live in a world dominated by China, believe me.

Keith Weinhold 23:26

Well, a lot of macro voices agree with you. About two months ago, we had the president of the Mises Institute here, and the way he characterized things are in the United States. 100 years ago, we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism, and today we merely have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. Do you see the US sovereign wealth fund being able to solve all four of the United States big problems that you outlined, debt and deficit conquering by China, political division and creditism. Can it solve all four of those?

Richard Duncan 24:04

Yes, it can. So as you know, Keith, a couple of years ago, I published my fourth book. It was called the money revolution. Yeah? How to find the book? Sure, yeah. How to finance the next American century. It was a subtitle. Now I argue that it would be very easy for the US to invest on a multi trillion dollar scale, new industries and new technologies over the next decade, and if we do that through a sovereign wealth fund, then would generate so much growth and be so profitable that instead of causing the government debt to increase, it would actually make the economy so much larger and generate so many more tax revenues, and the government would make so many profits from these companies that it has equity stakes in that it would reduce the government debt in absolute terms, and radically reduce the government debt relative to GDP, which would grow far faster than it has been growing in recent decades. This problem, number one, solved the high level of government debt. A high level of debt to GDP just make the GDP grow a lot faster, and the ratio of debt to GDP will go down. Problem number two is the US is at risk of being conquered by China. We can out invest China. We can invest more than China can afford to invest. We still have the best universities and the best entrepreneurs and scientists. So if we invest on a large enough scale, we will win, and China will not conquer us. Third, if the economy is growing at 7% a year instead of 1% a year, that is going to alleviate a lot of the domestic tensions that exist currently, much of the reason there's the origins of this domestic political divide that we're now suffering from in the US is because such a large part of the population has been left behind when all the factories moved overseas, countries like China and Vietnam, we de industrialized, and the people who Used to have good factory jobs, good, unionized, high paying factory jobs. All those people were left out in the cold, and they're not happy about it. And so if our economy were growing much more rapidly, these people would have much better jobs and much higher salaries, and they would be much happier than they are at the moment. And the final one was our post capitalist system of creditism requires credit growth to survive. So if the government is financing these investments on a multi trillion dollar scale, it's going to make credit expand, and that's going to keep the economy expanding. So yes, it would solve all four of those problems.

Keith Weinhold 26:35

One of those four problems is the debt and the deficit. I want to dive into that more with Richard as it becomes more and more problematic in the United States, and just how far we can kick this can down the road. You're listening to get rich education. We're talking with macro economist Richard Duncan. More, we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

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Jim Rickards 28:40

this is Author Jim Rickards. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 28:55

Welcome back to get rich education. We are going big this week, talking about the global economy, although mostly centered on the United States, with macroeconomist Richard Duncan. You can learn more about him at RichardDuncaneconomics.com and Richard I want to talk about the debt in the deficit. The debt is the United States overall debt as it accumulates year after year, and the deficit is just the annual thing, and it's so interesting and concerning. When I look at this, when you look at the line items in the United States government's annual spending, we now see that interest payments are taking the second largest chunk, only to Social Security. Social Security's number one interest is the second biggest expense, even more than defense spending and on Medicare. So I just wonder, as I see the interest payments going up and up and up and projected to be our greatest expense every year. You know, one thing I think about Richard is when our interest payments alone exceed our. Revenue somewhere down the road, is that when it's game over, or is that when we're on the way to game over? So can you talk to us about really, where the concern crops up with the deficit, like I talked about, and with the debt that's now at about $36 trillion

Richard Duncan 30:17

deficit and debt is a real problem. It was the first problem that I mentioned when we kicked off the conversation. There are two components of that. One is the fact that government debt has been increasing very rapidly. At the end of 2007 total government debt was around $9 trillion by 2014 it had doubled to $18 trillion because the government had to respond to the collapse of the private sector in 2008 and prevent us from having a great depression at that time, and then after 2014 it has doubled again, from 18 trillion to $36 trillion now, much of that was due to the need for the government to keep us from having another Great Depression during COVID When government stimulus amounted to about $5 trillion and the Fed created a similar amount over just a two year period. So now we have a much higher level of government debt. But the second component of that is that interest rates are very much higher than they used to be. The federal funds rate went up from 0% a few years back to a high of five and a quarter, actually a range between five and a quarter and five and a half. And recently, the Fed cut the federal funds rate by 50 basis points. But you can still say it is 4.9% let's call it 4.9% so interest rates are far higher than they used to be, but they don't have to remain high. The reason interest rates went up is because the Fed increased the federal funds rate. And the reason the Fed increased the federal funds rate is because we had high rates of inflation. Inflation peaked at 9% or so in 2022 but most recently, the CPI has come back down to 2.4% and the Fed's favorite measure of inflation, that PCE Price Index, has come down to 2.2% and that means that the federal funds rate, which is 4.9% is more than twice as high as the inflation rate is. That shows us that we have very tight monetary policy, and the Fed should be able to reduce interest rates very rapidly going forward. They've told us in their dot plot projections that they expect that interest rates will end this year the federal funds rate at 4.4% and then in next year, at 3.4% and 2026 at 2.9% so that reduction in interest rates will bring down the cost of the total interest expense that you mentioned as being so high currently, the risk, however, is that we get a rebound in inflation. We're inflation to surge again, then interest rates won't come down. In fact, they could go higher. So all of my career, more or less, has been spent in Asia. And the main theme that is run through the global economy, the development of the global economy over the last three and a half decades has been globalization, globalization in the form of us running very large trade deficits with other countries. Literally, the US current account deficit since the early 1980s has been $15 trillion meaning countries with the trade surpluses have had a $15 trillion trade surplus, and that's why they've all been transformed economically as a result of their trade surplus with the US, but what the US got out of this was the ability to buy things made with very low cost labor, and that was extremely disinflationary, that drove down the inflation rate in the US, and that allowed interest rates in the US to come down to very low levels that we've seen during most of this century, Up until the time COVID started. The real danger is now, if we do impose very high trade tariffs on China and our other trading partners, then that will cause a very serious spike in inflation. And it won't just be one off, because, of course, when the tariffs are put in place, that will immediately cause everything to be that much more expensive. The US companies importing goods from abroad would have to pay that tariff, then those US companies would pass those higher expenses on to the consumers, so we'd get an immediate spike in inflation. But that would also mean that the companies abroad it wouldn't be so profitable for them to have their manufacturing facilities abroad, they would try to bring those back home. And given that the unemployment rate in the US is so low already, only 4.1% there's not enough labor to allow these manufacturing facilities to come back to the US and start producing goods in the US. So that would cause an upward spiral. In wages and the wage push inflation spiral of the type that we had in the late 1960s and early 1970s so that is a In other words, tariffs would put an end to globalization, and that would cause a such a severe spike in inflation and interest rates, it would essentially be the death nail for creditism, which requires credit growth to survive. The end of globalization would mean this end of this 30 year global economic boom that the world has enjoyed, and therefore it is a very severe threat, and it would push up the interest expense of the US government, which you let off with, instead of lower interest rates, bringing down the interest expense the government has to pay every year, we would have instead higher interest rates, which would make the amount that the government has to pay on its interest even higher than it is at the moment, and make the budget deficit even larger than it is at the moment, and Make the government debt grow even faster than it's growing at the moment. So let's hope that doesn't happen. Instead, the better approach is to invest, to have the government finance large scale investments in new industries and technologies make the economy grow much more rapidly and we can grow our way out of this debt problem that we're currently in,

Keith Weinhold 36:21

yes more inflation, whether that comes from higher tarrifs or any other sources, will lead to higher interest rates to counteract that higher inflation, which will Yes, pump up the deficit in the debt that much more. And you know, one thing that I like about Richard is, you know, a lot of people complain about things, or say, what are we going to do? Or Things look bad, and Richard is saying some of that, but he offers a way forward with the US sovereign wealth fund, like he talked about before, investing our way out of it. So Richard, if we don't invest in this debt and deficit situation gets worse. It could be a hard question to answer, but I'd like your best guess at how far can we kick the can down the road? When is it game over? How big do our interest payments on the debt and deficit have to get?

Richard Duncan 37:10

the game is never over. No matter how bad things become, humanity will survive and carry on. So even in the Great Depression, people made it through, even through World War Two that resulted, largely as a result of the Great Depression. A lot of people died. 60 million people died, but the game didn't end. So regardless of how bad the economic system system were to become, humanity will survive and there will be a solution. Now, a lot of people put forward that, the idea that they point out that we have this high level of government debt, and their solution is to reduce government spending. The government spends something like $6.8 trillion last year. That was the amount the government spent. The budget deficit last year was 1.8 trillion so in order to eliminate the budget deficit, the government would have to spend $1.8 trillion less. In other words, it would have to cut its spending by 27% but the government cut its spending by 27% they're going to happen. The economy would immediately spiral into a depression. So even that reduction in spending wouldn't balance the budget, because the government revenues would collapse, and they would have even fewer tax revenues, so the deficit would still be there, the economy would collapse, and the unemployment rate would be 20 plus percent, and would just fall further behind China and be at greater risk from a national security perspective, and much more miserable As a society overall. That's why it's always say people should consider think of the words austerity and death at the same time, because austerity would bring about the collapse of our economic system and the Great Depression unless your civilization would survive it. trying to answer your question more directly, how high could this go? Well, governments don't default on their debt when push comes to shove. If the government's having a hard time paying interest on its debt, the Fed will just print more money. And in a case where between 2008 and 2014 when the Fed created three and a half trillion dollars, they printed a lot of money at that short space of time, and they got away with it without having high rates of inflation. The highest rate of inflation we had during that period was 3.8% in 2011 and by the early months of 2015 we had deflation again for a few months. Prices actually fell negative CPI for a few months in 2015 so if we have a global economy, as we do at the moment, full of we have nearly 8 billion people, I would guess 2 billion of them at least live on less than $5 a day. So the US could get away with having a lot of paper money printing without having higher, very high rates of inflation and the government could finance itself that way for quite a long time. Of course, if we have a closed domestic economy brought about by extremely high tariff barriers, then we would end up with hyperinflation in the United States. But even with hyperinflation, it would be very painful for people who have all their cash in the bank or under their mattress, but people with assets, those asset prices would appreciate more or less in line with the inflation, and it would erode the government debt relative to the size of the economy, because the GDP would grow in nominal terms very rapidly because of the hyperinflation, and the debt, which is not inflation adjusted, would be evaporated away by the inflation.

Keith Weinhold 40:43

right? that's why here at GRE we are all invested and aimed toward prudent use of leverage with assets like real estate and we sure have been the beneficiaries of that wave of inflation that followed COVID there. Richard, well, we're talking about the debt and the deficit somewhat, which, interestingly, has actually doubled since the first time you were here on the show. When you were here, 10 years ago, it was at 18 trillion, and today it's at 36 trillion. We talked about, how far can you kick the can down the road back then? Well, here we are, 10 years later, and it's doubled. Talk to us. You know, you talked previously about the greatest risk to the United States economy. Tell us now, as we are investors here on this show, about the greatest risk to the real estate and stock market, I would just say within the next year. What are some of those risks to those particular markets?

Richard Duncan 41:38

We've already discussed the main risk that high tariffs would potentially cause a new spike of inflation and force the Fed to hike interest rates rather than cutting interest rates. But there are some other risk as well. One is the fact that we already have a very high level of wealth relative to income. Let me back up a second. You were talking about debt doubling since we first spoke 10 years ago. Here's another statistic for you. Just in the last four and a half years, the total wealth of the Americans, all of their assets minus all of their liabilities. In other words, household sector net worth. Since the end of 2019 it has increased by $47 trillion in four and a half years. That's about a 40% increase. Now, $47 trillion is enough to pay off the entire US government tip, which we've been worrying about with $11 trillion left over. So not everything is as bleak as it sounds on the surface. We've had a huge explosion of wealth in the last four and a half years that's been driven by property and also by stocks. The problem now is, is that the level of income the asset prices, are very inflated relative to their historic norms. And one of the ratios that I always keep an eye on is called the wealth to income ratio. It takes the household sector net worth. In other words, the wealth that we were just discussing, which, by the way, is now $164 trillion of wealth owned by the Americans. The wealth divided by income, disposable personal income, this wealth to income ratio is now an extraordinarily high level. The ratio is 785% whereas the average of that ratio going back to 1950 has been 550% the previous two peaks were in the year 2000 when it hit 620 during the NASDAQ bubble, and then that bubble popped, and the stock market crashed, and we had a recession, and it went back to 550 and then it surged to a new peak of 680 during the property bubble. And then that bubble popped, and we almost went into a depression, and that a lot of wealth was destroyed. We had a severe recession. The government had to bail us out from and that ratio went back to 550 again. Now it is just off the charts relative to its previous peaks, because people 680 now it's 785 so people used to suggest that higher asset prices were justified because interest rates were near 0% but even after the Fed hiked interest rates from near 0% to about 5% The asset prices have stayed inflated. That does suggest that asset prices are very inflated and therefore very vulnerable to any sort of shock that could occur, whether geopolitical or economic or domestic political problems. So that's a concern. Another concern is quantitative tightening is still occurring. Quantitative tightening is the opposite of quantitative easing. When, with quantitative easing, the Fed creates money and pumps it into the financial markets, and that tends to make asset prices go up, and it also tends to make interest rates on government debt stay low, because if it pushes up bond prices, it pushes down. Bond yields. Well, now the opposite is occurring. Over the last two years, the Fed has destroyed roughly $2 trillion it created $5 trillion from the end of 2019 till about 2022 during the COVID pandemic, and the policy response to that, the Fed created $5 trillion but now it's destroyed 2 trillion of that five that it created, and is still destroying dollars at the rate of about $60 billion a month, or $700 billion a year. And as it does, as it destroys dollars, it takes dollars out of the financial system, which all other things being the same, tends to make financial conditions tighter, putting upward pressure on bond yields and downward pressure on asset prices. So as this continues, this is a concern, because reduce the liquidity in the system by another $700 billion if it continues for another year, having said that there is still an enormous amount of excess liquidity in the system as a result of all of the money that the Fed has created, going back to 2008 I estimate that the excess liquidity is somewhere around three and a half trillion dollars. If you look at bank reserves and the reverse repos at the Fed is about three and a half trillion dollars of excess liquidity, and the Fed actually has to pay interest to the banks on their bank reserves to hold interest rates up. That's how the Fed controls the federal funds rate now. It pays the banks roughly right now, 4.8% interest on all of the banks bank reserves, and so the banks will not lend money to anyone at less than 4.8% interest, because the Fed will pay them 4.8% interest. Why would they lend to anyone else for less if it suddenly stopped paying interest on these bank reserves, these banks would look around and where would they invest their three and a half trillion dollars in? No one's going to pay them 4.8% or even 3.8% or 2.8% interest rates would plunge because of all the excess liquidity that exists. So this excess liquidity has been a thing that's been driving the economy since COVID started, and it's why we've managed to avoid recession, which everyone is expected to arrive any moment now for the last two and a half years. So there are concerns, but there are also, as always, other reasons for optimism.

Keith Weinhold 47:24

Well, that wealth to income ratio that Richard talked about, that's a calculation that you yourself can do. One's net worth is almost eight times their income now, which is at a historic high, which is one concerning point that Richard brought up. Well, Richard, I want you to tell us about your terrific video newsletter, macro watch unless you have any other last thoughts first.

Richard Duncan 47:51

well, just one last word on the US sovereign wealth fund. Thank you very much for giving me a chance to discuss that and to explain why both Democrats and Republicans are now in favor of establishing a US sovereign wealth fund, one of the few issues that has bipartisan support. And this must come as a surprise to many of your listeners and most Americans, in fact, why have both parties agreed on really setting up a US sovereign wealth fund? So I'm glad I've had a chance to explain it and why it's so urgently necessary. I'd just like to emphasize the extraordinary benefits that this delivers to the American people, both individually and at a national level, individually, in terms of medical breakthroughs and better health and much more rapid economic growth for the economy, so much more wealth and much more national security as well. So I hope the Americans will get on board with this idea and give it their full support, because it's exactly what our country needs to solve all the four issues, the major issues that I laid out at the beginning of this conversation. But with that said, if your listeners would like to learn more about my work, Macrowatch. Microwatch is a video newsletter. Every couple of weeks, I upload a new video discussing something important happening in the global economy and how that's likely to affect the stock market, property, currencies and commodities. They can find macro watch on my website, which is RichardDuncanEconomics.com that's RichardDuncanEconomics.com Macro Watch has been going on now for 11 years, they'll find more than 100 hours of videos in the microwatch archives. They can begin watching immediately, and they'll receive a new video every couple of weeks. And I'd like to offer your listeners a subscription discount. If they go to Richard Duncan economics.com and hit the subscribe button, they'll be prompted to put in a discount coupon code, if they put it in G, R, E, they can subscribe to macro watch at a 50% discount. That's great. That's GRE so I hope they'll check that out, and at the very least, they can sign up there for my free blog and follow my work that way.

Keith Weinhold 49:56

And I have benefited from consuming macro watch content myself over the years, allowing me to sort of stretch my thought process and go macro, which we don't always do as real estate investors. Oh, Richard, it's been valuable as always, and you really offered a solution, a way forward here, something that's really refreshing. It's been great as always, having you back on the show.

Richard Duncan 50:18

Yeah. Thank you very much. I look forward to the next time

Keith Weinhold 50:21

me too. when it comes to the term capitalism, if that's truly a system that we're no longer in, you know, it seems to get replaced with the word meritocracy, and that is a word that I like, meritocracy, where producers get rewards for being productive, but even that is under attack, and the government just always seems to be stepping in with a safety net. Seemingly everywhere you look, it won't let banks fail. We saw them jump in early last year with Silicon Valley Bank and other bank failures, the government won't let homeowners fail either. I mean, you don't have to think back very far with mortgage loan forbearance in the COVID era, on issues of the debt and deficit. Even Fed Chair Jerome Powell himself has called it unsustainable. That's the word that he used. Like Richard said today, we won't default. We'll just print more. So when it comes to the inflation versus deflation tug of war, the future keeps looking inflationary, but at what rate of inflation? That's what I don't know, and no one really knows. If you like Richard Duncan's content, and you sort of wished he and I's conversation would go on. Well, he is a regular guest here, so I expect him back. But if you're telling yourself, I want more of his content and I want to make it visual at the same time to help really bring this to life, well, visit RichardDuncanEconomics.com hit the subscribe button and get 50% off. That's five zero, 50% off with the discount code. GRE. Happy Veterans Day. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 2 52:17

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Keith Weinhold 52:46

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526: Make America Rich Again, Coaching Call
4 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses the inefficiency of compound interest in wealth building, advocating for compound leverage through real estate investments. He illustrates how a $100,000 investment in a $500,000 property at a 6% annual return can yield much higher returns due to leverage (see the math below).

He also explains how mortgage rates are influenced by long-term bond yields and discusses the benefits of real estate over stocks.

A coaching call with GRE Investment Coach Naresh highlights the process of investing in real estate, including financing considerations and the role of a coach in guiding investors.

Here’s the math on a 5:1 leveraged RE return at a 6% appreciation rate:

Year One: $500,000 x 1.06 = $530,000. Subtract $400K debt = $130,000 equity

Year Two: $530,000 x 1.06 = $561,800. Subtract $400K debt = $161,800 equity

Year Three: $561,800 x 1.06 = $595,508. Subtract $400K debt = $195,508 equity.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:00

Keith, welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, make America rich again in play numbers. You'll get a fresh take today on how compound interest does not build wealth and compound leverage does. Then you'll learn about how bond market moves affect mortgage rates. Finally, you get to listening to a call between one of our investment coaches and a GRE follower today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:33

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:19

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:35

Welcome to GRE from Altoona, Pennsylvania to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing Since 2014 you're going to hear some things that you've never heard before today, and some listeners tell us that GRE is unlike any real estate information they've ever heard. And with what I want to tell you today, well, again, it's information that I've never heard anywhere else, either. So what I endeavor to regularly do for you here on this show is to tell you what I wish I had known sooner make America rich again, nope, that is not my presidential campaign platform for my run in the year 2032, or anything like that. It is this, don't get your money to work for you. In fact, if you want real wealth, don't work for money or get your money to work for you. Don't make either of those things the focus anyway, avoid growing your money through compound interest, because that's not the formula either. Now you and I have covered that ground before, if you're new here, and that material makes you say what you might have thought things like that were the holy grail of wealth building, nope, and today, for the first time on the show, in over 500 episodes, I'm gonna put some real numbers to that to show you exactly what I mean. Let me explain to you how to invest to truly win in a way that you've never seen in your life. You're not gonna improve only your life, but generationally, your entire family's life. At your job, you are like a dock worker. You're trying to pull your boat up to the dock so that you can then make a short, easy hop onto the boat and get away. And you'll learn how I did that and how I would begin investing today if I could start all over again. Now, after I had graduated college and had a job, I used to think, Well, yeah, I'll invest through a 401K in mutual funds, because it's easy and it's just deducted right from my paycheck. Well, when you do the easy thing in life, there's usually not much reward. And back then, I thought, Well, why would I invest in real estate anyway? I mean, a stock and mutual fund return on investment is about 10% over time. Real Estate is more like five or 6% plus real estate has all these maintenance hassles, and in the stock market, your 10% return enjoys compound interest. I don't really know how that works over on the real estate side, all right. Well, let's look at some numbers with how this would all work anyway. Here we go with $100,000 invested in stocks at 10% after year one, it's grown to $110,000 in year two, you don't just have 120k you've got more, because the 10% compounds on the 110 10k so now in year two, you've got $121,000 and I bet that you don't see any problem in this yet, right? Hey, things are going great. And after year three, you're up to $133,100 All right, so there we are. You begin with 100k and after three years, you've got then $33,100 in profit, your gain, on top of your 100k All right, that's what compound interest does. Well, let's take a closer look at that. $33,100 first, okay, I could attack it a slew of reasonable ways, if I wanted to, we could subtract out the constant drags on that of inflation, emotion, taxes, fees and volatility. But let's just take one volatility. We smoothed out our 10% return saying that you achieved it every year in that example there, we know that does not happen in the real world. Stocks are volatile, and the more volatile the return, the lower the return. Because instead, if you were up 20% one year and then down 20% the next year, which stocks are known to do you're not even you're down your 100k would instead go up to 120k in year one and down to 96k in year two, a loss, like I've told you before, that right there is the difference between what's called the compounded annual growth rate and the average annual return. But we'll just leave stocks number right there. We'll say that despite all five drags, volatility, of which is just one, the compound interest still somehow gave you this $33,100 gain. That number is about to look really disappointing, and this is about to get really interesting.

Let's compare that to real estate, and we'll say that despite that, it only returns, say, 6% per year here. Well, how do most people buy real estate? They do it with other people's money. OPM, remember earlier that I talked to you about how you don't create wealth from getting only your money to work for you, like you did in the stock example. Yeah, here's how you ethically use other people's money to buy real estate. When you invest 100k in a rental property. That's your 20% down. You get to borrow 80% from the bank, 400k so now you control a $500,000 property. And here's the thing, its entire value appreciates a 6% all 500k not only your 100k invested, yes, so you're now about to get the return on both your 100k and all of the bank's money. 400k that you get to leverage returns from both are about to go to you. Oh, yes, let's run these numbers, instead of compound interest, you're about to get compound leverage, using those borrowed funds to amplify your own return. So with your 100k invested on a 500k property at 6% after year one, you've got 130k after year two, $161,800 and after year three, $195,508 why? Because, again, your 6% return was accumulating on the 500k property. All right, so after year three, with this $195,508 you're gonna subtract out your 100k down payment, and your gain is $95,508 All right, that is compared to your compound interest based stock and mutual fund return of just $33,100 if you'd like to see the math for that leverage. Return that is in the show notes. Look for it there. See, by employing other people's money, it's like when you were a kid and in the evening, your body cast a shadow five times taller than you actually were. That's how leverage allows you to magnify returns and appear to be a bigger, taller investor than you actually are. Yes, your 20% down payment on real estate gave you five to one leverage amplifying your returns. If you listen to the show for a while, you understand that, but you never saw that numeric dollar per dollar comparison like we just did. So after three years, how about 33k profit on stocks and 95k on real estate? Real estate returns almost three times as much. But in reality, it's probably more than a 3x win for real estate because you're 95 Gain over three years in real estate, equity is actually going to be higher, because your tenant is also paying down your principal balance on your 400k loan every single month for 36 months in this three year example, if your property is vacant, 10% of the time they paid it down for you 33 out of 36 months, and as we know, at the same time, inflation pays down your loan even faster than the tenant does. Real Estate is also more tax advantaged than your stock gain, because you never have to pay capital gains tax on your 95k profit with a 1031 tax deferred exchange. And on the downside for real estate, upon owning the property, you will need to pay closing costs of maybe four to 5% of the purchase price. All right now, in this 95k gain for real estate versus 33k gain for stocks, I did some rounding there. Yes, even if your stock return was in a 401 K type fund, well, you would still have to either pay the tax now with a Roth or later with a traditional retirement plan. So you're still paying the tax. The higher real estate return is also more likely because real estate is less volatile than stocks, and I've got more vitally important things to tell you about how you just grew wealth about three times faster with leverage than with compound interest. And yes, this is exactly the kind of stuff I wish I knew when I had just started out. Now if you think you don't have the money for a down payment. I'll get into that. But first, a big review here, and I've woven threads of this review through previous episodes. First, don't focus on getting only your money to work for you. And second, stress compound leverage, not compound interest. Optimize using other people's money. And when you take out a loan for rental property, you get to use other people's money three ways at the same time, three different entities, you're using their money. Number one, it's for the bank's loan, like we discussed. Number two, you're using the government's money for generous tax incentives. I only touched on one of the tax incentives. And then, thirdly, you are using the tenants money to pay down your mortgage loan and pay all of your properties operating expenses, like maintenance repairs, insurance, property taxes and pay your property manager to make this all mostly passive for you. I don't manage any of my own properties. I think you already know that. And on top of that, hopefully you'll have a little residual income after expenses every month, your monthly profit of rent income minus expenses, that is called cash flow. And when I talk about doing this ethically, use an experienced property manager. Never get called a slumlord. Provide housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional, okay, some really core, enduring, GRE mantras in there. But what if real estate goes down in value? It's not common, but I did have it happen to me around 2008 we won't even talk about what happens when stocks go down in value, but when real estate values went down in 2008 it just didn't matter that my rental property's values were temporarily suppressed because my rents were higher than my expenses, I was still making income each month off the property. That's a good way to own property, if you can. I'm not motivated to sell an asset. I mean, are you motivated to sell an asset that's paying you income every month during a time when it's capital value dip, so probably not. And by the way, there is nothing new or esoteric here. You just haven't had it explained to you in this way before. This 33k from stocks and mutual funds versus 95k from real estate you haven't seen that before. This is simply buying houses with plain vanilla 30 year fixed rate loans, and it's just simply long term buy and hold. This is not flipping, as I like to say. This is not day trading. This is decade trading, as you continue along in your real estate journey, keep stacking more properties, and it's gonna go faster than you think, because you've got this power of compound leverage, and your tenant also pays you income that you can use toward buying the next property, and then as a backup, you have that trapped equity that keeps accumulating in your property. And the reason this goes faster than you think is that you can also release that equity by removing it with a completely tax free event, a cash out refinance, all while you still hold onto the asset and you. Use the untrapped equity to put down payments on more property. Now, what if you think you don't have the money to start or get as big as you want, as fast as you want? Well, I've met a lot of people that when they understand this compound leverage concept, they withdraw their 401 K funds, pay a penalty and pay the taxes, and they put those funds toward real estate. I mean, you would owe taxes on it anyway. Now that part may or may not be ready for you, but you know, once I understood this, what I did is I stopped contributing to my 401K and I instead got into compound leverage. Yeah, this is how to make America rich again. Now, what if you think you don't have 100k to invest in property like we did in our example? Well, there are perfectly good $200,000 properties at GREmarketplace.com where you could make a $40,000 down payment. But you still might be thinking, I'll just say that the real estate market is just really competitive now, and that your small down payment maybe it can't compete with a deep pockets all cash offer, because all cash buyers can close really fast, but no your small down payment can still compete with all cash offers, because Some sellers don't want a quick sale for either tax reasons or myriad lifestyle reasons that they might have, I like to say that using debt is like using fire if it's misallocated, like with 23% credit card debt, that's what the average credit card interest rate is right now, 23% well that can burn down your financial house. But if you know how to use the debt in a controlled manner, like from income property that others paid down for you, oh, that fire is contained in a stove, and that fire or fireplace will heat your home. If I could start all over again with what I know now, it would be to embrace good debt, because tenants pay down this debt for me, so use it as leverage to build a real estate empire. Think of it this way, besides the employer match, every dollar that you lock inside a 401K is $1 that you cannot use to leverage other people's money. Back when I started investing, I should not have contributed to a conventional retirement plan beyond the employer match myself. So I used leverage to pull my boat up to the dock more than three times faster and escape the day job when I was still young enough to enjoy it. And once you know the difference, why would you want to do life any other way? You might have heard that real estate has made more people wealthy than any other investment today.

You've learned how now, sometimes it is hard to stop and turn off a mindset if the same thing has been believed for a long time. I think we've all experienced that. If you believe something for a long time, well then it's hard to change your mind on that, and you might even fight and defend that core belief. That could be the case here with me, denigrating the wealth building capability of compound interest. And if you're still wrestling with that yourself, a great compliment where I discuss this more in depth and in a different way, can be found on an episode that I did earlier this year that is on GRE Podcast, episode 507 episode 507 is called compound interest is weak. I'm here to talk to you about things that are really gonna move the meter in your financial life, like what I've covered with you so far, and what I'm gonna help you learn next. You know, there's just some information out there, even real estate information, it's just not that useful. Say, for example, mortgage purchase applications were down from last week, but yet they were up month over month. Well, that might matter to certain sub industries, but it doesn't move the meter in your life with how you're going to actionably build wealth.

Hey, before we move on, I want to give a major shout out to this show's long time, steady, capable sound engineer, Vedran. He just hit the 10 year mark of filling that important role for us here. Yet 10 years almost since the inception of this show. He's been with us since November of 2014 so since about episode five, and he's edited every single episode since then, and he recently told me that he looks forward to the next 10. Congratulations, Vedran. Also, thanks to you, the listener, the follower. Here, we held three GRE live virtual events this year, webinars. You. You are really taking action. Back in June, we broke a record with 307 registrants for that event. And then our latest event that was held about 10 days ago saw another record broken, 528 of you registering, and I say thanks, because you make me feel good. You're showing that I'm helping make a difference in your life. And now maybe you're thinking these events or this platform, it's getting too well known, and if you show up to a future event that you might not get to ask a question, no, that's not the case. Not everyone that registers shows up for the event live, and then you can ask a lot of your own questions with a personal free coaching call as well. I'll let you listen into a coaching call later on, today's show. In fact, now I've shared with you a few times before that changes to mortgage rates don't follow changes in the federal funds rate that Jerome Powell and the FOMC said. I've also told you that mortgage rates closely track long term bond yields, but let me tell you about what all that really means, and this is going to help you understand and perhaps even predict the future direction of mortgage rates. In fact, it's unusual. You know, the largest market in the world is not the real estate market, it's not the stock market, it's the bond market. And What's unusual is here we are on episode 526, and we've really never discussed the bond market. Well, you're probably aware that a month and a half ago, the Fed dropped interest rates by a half point. Their next decision is in just three days. Now I don't think they should drop rates again, though they could. That's because since the rate cut, GDP and job growth have been strong. That's why I don't think they should do it. I mean, rates usually get cut to help a wounded economy, so why lower them now? I mean, recessions usually see rate cuts. But here's what even fewer people understand when the Fed cut rates a month and a half ago by a half point, why have mortgage rates soared since then? They were about 6.1% and then the Fed made their cut, and mortgage rates recently spiked up to 6.9% well, many still feel that the long term trend for all types of interest rates is lower. But you know for one thing, rates are really hard to predict. The Fed only controls short term rates. Long term rates, like the 30 year and 15 year mortgage are tied most closely to the yield on the 10 year treasury note, and here after I'll just call that the 10 year All right, so what is this and what controls it? Well, don't let that name intimidate you. This is get rich education. So let's break down each word yield on the 10 year treasury note. Yield just means interest rate. 10 years is the period of time that this loan is made for the duration the US Treasury issues them so they receive the loan and a note is an IOU. It was also known as a bond. That is what's held by the person or the entity that loaned the money, the person that loaned this money to the Treasury. It could be you yourself, or it could be a foreign nation. So you hold on to this note because you made the loan to the Treasury. That's the breakdown of every word of the phrase the yield on the 10 year treasury note. Okay, so to say it a different way, if you hold a 10 year treasury note, that is basically your receipt, your proof that you made a 10 year long IOU to our federal government and it is going to pay you an interest rate known as a yield. All right, that is the simplest explanation I can give. Well, a month and a half ago when Jerome Powell cut short term rates, the 10 year was 3.7% at that time, and at the beginning of last week, it was up to 4.2% that's the highest since July. And again, 30 year mortgage rates most closely track the 10 year all right, as you and I sort of hold hands through this together next, let's ask what made them rise. And you know, some think this is harder to understand than trying to understand why YouTube viewers constantly fall for ludicrous housing price crash videos. Okay, but relax. This is easy. When the economy gets hot, all these things tend to rise in value, real estate, stocks and also productivity rises. Employment rises. Is an inflation that tends to rise as well. Because a 10 year investor needs a real return above the rate of inflation, this yield must rise as well. That's it. You got it. You got it. So therefore, when a rosy jobs report comes out, the 10 year tends to go up. When a strong retail sales report comes out, the 10 year yield tends to go up or a high flying CPI is released, the 10 year tends to go up. And therefore, because it rose in the past month, investors have expectations for a strong economy and more persistent inflation. So conversely, expect both the yield on the 10 year treasury note and the 30 year mortgage rate to fall when the economic outlook gets more dim. It's important to understand that, like a lot of things in the stock market, yields on the 10 year they tend to be more of a reflection of future economic expectations than the current economy. And this should be pretty easy for you to remember, because when you think about it, that makes sense. Since you've lent out your money to the federal government for 10 years. I mean, you're really interested in what that 10 year future is going to look like. So yes, though this is somewhat less exciting than watching a motorcycle jump over the Grand Canyon now that you listen closely for the last few minutes. Congratulations. Now you know that the 10 year can tell you both what investors expect to happen in the future, and can tell you the direction of 30 year mortgage rates. And, yeah, I mean, this is just more the type of material that I wish someone had explained to me sooner, in a way, just like that. And you know, are you interested in doing things that at the end, they make you say, You know what, I just got 1% better this week. I mean, think about the kind of person you'll be if you make yourself just 1% better each week. Now you better understand how leverage beats compound interest and what makes mortgage rates move. Go out and vote tomorrow as far as next, listen into one of our GRE investment coaching calls. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.

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Zack Lemaster 29:08

this is rent to retirement. Zach Lemaster, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 29:22

Welcome. Back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, there will only ever be one GRE podcast episode five under 26 and you're listening to it. Let's let you listen into a coaching call between GRE investment coach Naresh and GRE follower, Brenda, and then I'll be back to wrap it up at the end.

Naresh Vissa 29:41

hey, Brenda, good to Good to see you after emailing back and forth. Thanks for setting up this call.

Brenda 29:47

Yeah, thanks, Naresh, thanks for setting up time to talk to me.

Naresh Vissa 29:49

Yeah. Well, tell me what made you schedule this call, like, Why did you hit that button saying I want to talk to the real estate investment coach?

Brenda 29:59

Yeah, well, I've seen some of the newsletters that come from GRE I'm familiar with some of the podcasts, but then I had gotten into the newsletters, and then I saw that there was an option for a free consultation to talk to you. And I thought, Well, I'm not sure what this really means, or what we talk about, or how you can help me, as far as, like, the vision, or how do I set my goals? Or what is it exactly that I would do with you with GRE, like, what kind of consultation Do you provide?

Naresh Vissa 30:29

Yeah, well, so that's you came to the right place. So let me tell you a little bit about GRE, a little bit about me, who we are, how we operate. So get rich. Education is an education company. As you know, you listen to the podcast, you read the newsletter. It's free. The podcast is free. The newsletter is free. You can go to our website, read our blog, go through past podcasts. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to our social media, Tiktok, Instagram, Facebook, X, you name it. That's all free content available for you, and this service, the real estate investment coaching, is completely free of charge. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but you'll never pay as a dime. I'm here to help you throughout and along your real estate investment journey. Think of me as a super connector, someone who can introduce you to all the right people, whether it's specific markets you want to invest in. Providers. There, wholesalers, flippers, lenders, appraisers, although your lender will take care of the appraiser part, if you need a second lender, financing, CPAs, attorneys, anything at all, just come to me and I can introduce you to the right people, or at least point you in the right direction. I'll try my best to do it 100% of the time. I don't, or I should say, I don't, have answers 100% of the time, but I do have answers most of the time, and I can forward you and refer you, point you in the right direction. So think of me as a super connector. Think of me as your silent partner in deals, because I get any equity in the deals who you don't have to pay anything to think of me as an advisor, a consultant. Again, this is a completely free service. There's you're not going to get like, a bill in the mail saying, Hey, you talked to Naresh five times, so you owe us $1,000 for that. Now, there's none of that. So the most common question I get after telling people this or, like, well, then, I mean, you can't be doing this for free. Like, why are you doing great? Like, like, yeah, what's the catch here? And they also have, I mean, I'm sure you're wondering, how do you make money? Well, if you listen to the podcast, if you go to our website, you'll see advertisements, sponsorships. We are paid marketing fees, advertising fees from partners. So you listen to the podcast, I'm sure you hear many of those commercials. We make our money on the back end, so we can keep services like this and our newsletter and our podcast free on the front note, like I said, GRE is not is an education company. We are not a broker or a wholesaler or a flipper or a builder or an agency or a realtor service or any of that a brokerage, where we're not of that, we're purely education, education based through our educational content or free educational coaching, which I offer too. So that's what you are. Got it .we work with all those other companies. So we can refer you to all those other types of companies that can help you on your real estate investment journey. But we are not any of those. Now me, personally, I am an investor myself. I own eight properties in southeastern United States. I got started in 2017 I bought my first property in a single family home. That was rehab. Back then, rehabs are very hot. That was what you should get in, that what made sense to get into. And I scaled pretty quickly. I went from one to eight in a matter of it's been seven years since I bought that first property, but I actually went from one to eight in a matter of more, like two and a half years, I just kind of went so I bought, like I said, southeastern United States, bought my last property in 2020 I'm saving up for my next property because I personally now only, like new construction, I rehabs have their place, certainly For certain investors. And at the time, I got six rehabs, rehab properties from 2017 to 2019 so I personally, though, am now saving up because new construction is more expensive than than rehab. So I'm saving up for my next real estate property, which is most likely going to be a new construction. So that's a little bit about my investing background. I've been a real estate coach Since 2019 came in 2021 to GRE and have run the coaching side ever since. So that's a little bit about me on the real estate side, on the coaching side. Now, my background is not in real. Real Estate. I like, I said, I got in 2017 before that, and I still do work in tech. So I worked in tech from 2000 really, from 2005 and still do work in tech. So it was through my tech work that I got involved in real estate, because I would do back end tech work for real estate companies. And doing that work, I was like, Oh, I started learning about real estate, and then I said, huh, if this doesn't seem hard or difficult. And I also got an investment coach who helped me, like I said, with that competitor, they also had investment coaches or investment counselors. So I had a coach who helped me a little bit, but that's what the coaches are for there to help investors like me, especially newbie investors, or even veteran investors. They're there to help investors with the networking part, with the who are offering the best deals, special deals, special interest rates, who's honest, who's dishonest? That's what I'm here to do. So that's a little bit about GRE About me, about my background, how our coaching program works. So now, Brenda, it's all about you. I want to hear I'm sure you have tons of questions based on what I just said, but before you ask those questions, I'm just going to start out with, how much cash do you have ready to invest? Because really, I could be of most service if you're looking to invest, otherwise, I can't really be of much service. So how much cash do you have ready to go to invest? And then I'll answer, I'll say something about that, and then I'll let you ask whatever questions you want.

Brenda 36:35

Sounds good. Just a cash ready for deployment is 100,000 but I'm assuming that doesn't all have to go to one property, right? Or depending on the property?

Naresh Vissa 36:46

Yeah, so, so is that lick? So what I should have clarified my question as how much liquid cash do you have on not like a 401, K, or properties that you have to cash out refinance, or it's just if you today, if you were to take a property and and you had cash ready to do so be $100,000 Yeah, correct. Okay, so, so a few things that's very good, because with 100,000 that gives you optionality. You can either go for a rehab property, and we have rehab property right now. Our hottest provider is in Memphis, Tennessee, and you can get a rehab property. Worst case scenario, let's just say the property, the average property, is about $100,000 and so you just put down a 25% down payment. So let's just give or take, let's say $30,000 I tell our investors. I say, Look, if you want to buy your first property, or Yeah, your first rehab property, you need at least $50,000 cash, liquid in the bank, ready to go. That's just because you want that cushion. You don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. So I say, if you want a rehab property, you need 50,000 if you want a new construction, single family 100,000 because the new constructions are going to cost you at least $240,000 at least. So if you take 25% of that, plus closing costs and cushion and everything, just if you want to be a good investor, you have to be disciplined. And you have to be disciplined enough to be able to save the 50,000 or the $100,000 if you want to make it as a real estate investor. So 50,000 for a rehab property, 100,000 for a new construction. If you want a duplex, you need, I say, a new construction duplex, which is probably our hottest new construction asset class right now in Florida, 150,000 for a new construction. Down payment or not. Down Payment task, ready to go for a new construction duplex, because those are selling for about 490,000 give or pay. So it's 50,000 for rehab that you should have in the bank. 100,001 in the bank for a new construction, single family. 150,000 for a duplex. Anything beyond that, then we can talk. You know, later you wanted a squad or something else, but that's generally what I say. And I tell, I tell investors. I say, Look, if you only have $30,000 in the thing, let's connect after you get up, because I don't want you putting all that 30,000 into a rehabbed property, whereas, who knows, maybe the economy might go into a recession and it stays vacant for six months. I don't want you to have to go through that. So let's stick to those numbers. So you said you have 100,000 so you have options. You can you can get either a rehab property or you can get a new construction. So it's completely up to you. It's about your new construction. Single family, it's completely up to you. I personally, I, like I said, I started out with the rehabs, and then I've kind of graduated up to new construction. God, they the lowest risk you can take with 100,000 is by starting with a. Be just a low price rehab where you put in $30,000 and full, you know, down payment burden, costs, everything else you put that, you know, 30 grand, if it first property, you put that 25 to 30 grand in, and you treat that as a learning experience. And you go through the experience, and if everything goes smoothly, then you can buy the second property, and you can decide whether, hey, do I want to continue with this rehab, or I'd still have enough capital for the new construction single payer. But I would start small. If you're new, if you're an advanced veteran investor who has six figure, well into the six figures in the bank, ready to go. I tell those people. I say, hey, let's just go for new construction. Let's go for the new construction. Single family. Let's go for the duplexes. Some of them have 700 $800,000 in some cases, a million dollars plus. I say, hey, let's let's just go for the quad to the construction four Plex. The incentives are great, etc, etc. So in your case, 100,000 you certainly have choices. And what I'll do after this call is, well, first I want to hear, based on what I said, What are your thoughts on anything, whether it's renew, construction versus rehab, and then what I brought up earlier about coaching?

Brenda 41:12

Yeah, I actually thank you, Naresh, I really like what you said about starting small. I have purchased two single family homes in the past, their rentals, but I never went through a coach. I just kind of did it on my own, and luckily, things worked out. But certainly having a coach and starting out small, just to kind of go through the process, it's really helpful. Here's the situation that I think is just a little bit different, and I know that this would probably be something that I talked to like a lender about. But in your experience, I actually just came from an 18 year career. Actually, I was in tech myself, but I'm now transitioned from a corporate w2 into more, but 1099, what's classified as like a independent company, you know, type of income, what has been your experience with other clients that transitioned from that type? Is it easier? Is it harder to obtain loans? Is there going to be different requirements? 25% does that still stand?

Naresh Vissa 42:13

Yeah. So I could give you a full, you know, lecture on this, or something called the housing expense ratio and something called the total obligation ratio. I'm not going to get into those details, because the lenders, I can refer you to lenders, and they can explain all that, and those ratios mean a lot to getting you pre qualified. But what I will say is, unfortunately, if you are 1099, you are at a disadvantage, because it's not steady, consistent income, unless you can show two years of steady, consistent income. I mean, really is the last for your last two years of tax return. So if it's a new 1099, gig, yep, you're gonna have to wait until you have two years of consistent high income. If you've been doing it for a while, then send your last two years. And if it's, you know, if it's looking good, then, then you'll get approved. The other option, and this is, this is not a personal question or anything, but it married couples can go together on one loan. So if this actually helped me out a lot, because my wife is a high income earner, and I have my own business, and my business does pretty well, but if you're 1099 as as you know, there are all sorts of things you can do with your tax return that are completely legal and to where you pay yourself as little as possible, so that you can cut your income tax. So in any case, that's like 1099 workers are a disadvantage for mortgage because all they care about is your pay stub, your you know, how much income did you have? So there were times when I put my wife on the mortgage and she's got a high income, and so you can put a spouse on there, and you can both do it together. Now you're allowed 10 loans per person, so if you want a spouse go on a mortgage that counts, even if it's for one mortgage, one property, that counts as one for each of you. So for two working husband and wife. For a couple where both spouses are working with good income, I say look, you'll want one spouse to do 10 properties and another spouse to do a completely different 10 mortgages. That way you can do 20 combined. Now, if you do it together, then you'll only be able to buy 10 combined because you're older than so 1099, workers. We get that question a lot, and it actually it is a problem, because the standards changed after 2008 so either wait the two years and have your consistent records to show high income, or if you already have it right now, then you can get approved.

Brenda 44:54

Got it. Got it. This would be for just conventional loans. What about other loan products? Like, I think I've heard of the DSCR loan where maybe just the rental property would cover, you know, part of the I'm not sure, like, I guess you're guaranteeing that the property will make enough money to cover the payment of the loan.

Naresh Vissa 45:12

Yeah, DSCR and loans are hard to get approved. Really, what I should do is introduce you to some of our lending partners. If you're interested. DSCR is meant more so for people who have utilized you want to use those 10 loans first, so because if you go you're going to have a higher interest rate if you go with the deal. So those DSCR loans, or Portfolio loans, are meant for people who have used their 10. Their spouse has used their 10. They've got capital low rolling in their ultra high net worth. So they're fine, okay, just get me another loan. I need the tax benefit. I need the tax break. I'm fine paying a 10% interest. So they'll go for a portfolio loan or a vsdr loan. In your case, first property, your first investment property, first turnkey we want to go for a loan.

Brenda 45:58

Got it makes sense. And then another question, so this was about the financing. But another question that I meant to ask earlier is, I know you mentioned, like, you know, I am not like a realtor or anything like that, but how does it work? Like, I'm think about when I'm purchasing a home, personally, I kind of say, hey, I want to three bedrooms, four bedrooms, this many baths. Like, how does that work with you? Like, do I give you criteria of what I'm looking for, or, you know, based on my goals? Do you kind of craft a plan? How does that work?

Naresh Vissa 46:29

Yeah, so I actually sent you an email just right before this call it. I think you got the email, and it includes a link to about 20% of our inventory. It's not all of our inventory. That inventory is just there. To get you started to see the types of properties that we have available. We have some constructions and the markets that we cover, again, it's only about 20% of the inventory. If you go to our GRE marketplace, you can see all of the markets that we cover. Your biggest source will be, I send out emails. So your biggest source will be, if I email you, I'll email you like a property. It'll be, Hey, I just came across this deal. It's like, it's my VIP email list. So you'll get my, you know, VIP emails, and that's going to be your, your best source. You also get Keith white holds newsletter, which promotes properties from time to time and and we only promote the best. We there are hundreds of properties we can promote. We only distill it down to the best of the best. So don't think, oh, like, there might be another property that narration knows about. Now we promote through our social media, through my email list, through Keith's newsletter, through the podcast, through the webinars, the best of the best. So that's the best way to to find out,

Brenda 47:49

got it your inventory or what you currently right,

Naresh Vissa 47:52

and with your permission, I can add you to my VIP email list. If it's okay, yeah, that would be cool. I'll go ahead and add you, and you'll start getting those emails in real time. I only send out an email maybe once every three weeks, so I really only want to send the best of the best. I want to waste people's time.

Brenda 48:07

Great. So what if you do send me an email and I'm like, Yeah, I love it. I think this is fits exactly what I'm looking for. Do I email you back? Do I contact you? Like, how do we stay in contact?

Naresh Vissa 48:18

So email is the best form of communication, because in real estate and business in general, we want documentation of everything. We don't want any miscommunications. So if you see something you like, email me. I'm available. You have my phone number. You can text me, you can call me, you can email me. I'm very accessible, but email is preferred, because that way it's in writing, and I'll know exactly what you want, the address, everything. So let's say you see a property that you like from an email that you get from Keith or from me, and you email me to say, hey, I'm interested. What are next steps? I will get you in touch with the actual like I said, we're just an education company. I'll get you in touch with the actual builder or the broker or the agent on the property, and they'll be able to answer way more questions than I can answer way more and that that's for anything. If your question is about financing, I can get you in touch with several good, low rate lenders, and they can answer all your questions about financing. Your question is CPA Tax stuff. I can get we have, uh, several good contacts who can help you out there as well.

Brenda 49:20

Got it, got it. So then what, what does our communication look like from there? Like, do if I say yes, I want it, then you get me in contact with them, and then I kind of work with whoever it is that has this property. And then hopefully we just close on the property. And that's it, right? Am I understanding that correctly?

Naresh Vissa 49:40

Sure? So, so all correctly? Yeah, I'll refer you over to them, and they will, they will take care of you. Should copy me on all emails that way. Okay, what's going on? Copy, you remember, I'm your coach. I'm here to help you, like it's free, so copy to an email so I know what's going on. If there's a problem, I can jump in. In many cases, I hold a leverage over a lot of these. People, if a problem happens, I can step in and say, Hey, treat her better. Or, you know, you should waive this cost, or whatnot. So copy, because the people who get into trouble are the people who didn't copy me on the emails. And many, many time, time just goes by, and then they come with their problem as they Hey, if you came to me a year ago, I could have actually helped you with this. Now, the statutes expired, and it's, it's a complete mess. So always, even after you're done posing on the property and you have a tenant in there and just copy me on me.

Brenda 50:30

Got it. Okay, So kind of bring you along the journey. Okay, so let's say I'm at the end, like, do these providers help me? I'm assuming in some of these cases, you've mentioned places that are far from where I live. So do they help provide additional resources, like, who's going to manage my property, or who's going to find me a tenant? Like, could they help me with that?

Naresh Vissa 50:51

Absolutely. So the entire point of GRE of this investment coaching program, the entire point is so that you can become what's called a laptop landlord. You can literally live free and have just take a step back and have your properties run on their own. So the idea is not for you to invest down the street and become a property manager and a landlord down the street. It's you can be anywhere in the world. Buy properties anywhere. Like I said, I live in Florida, but by Prop, I've never visited any of my properties. I've never met a tenant. So that's what you want to do, and that's what we help people do. If you want to buy a property across the street and become you can do that yourself. Go through all the loops yourself. We are here to help you invest in Ohio, in Tennessee, in Florida and Texas and all these places that you may not have even visited every other life, but you can still have a very fruitful investment journey. So we set all that up for you, the property management, every all that it's going to be taken care of, so that your hands off. That's why it's called turnkey real estateReal real estate investing.

Brenda 51:56

Got it. Okay, sounds good. And typically, how long does this process take? I mean, I'm sure it's different for everybody, but what can I expect, like from beginning, from when I talk to you, to when hopefully I have a property that I'm signing off on?

Naresh Vissa 52:12

In some cases, it's literally taken two days. In other cases, it's taken there's not even an answer, because people did end up buying Okay, yeah, so, so, yeah, in in the case of, like, our Memphis burr properties, which are rehab properties in Memphis, I recommend that you watch our burr webinar. I can send that to you after this call, if you'd like. But I had people who watched the webinar talk to me. I introduced them that same day to the provider in Memphis. They talk to their provider in Memphis, and then the next day, they pick the property, and the day after that, they sign a contract. Oh, okay, so it's all about the investor. If you're a serious investor, it can be very quick, like me, I was very serious. That's why I scaled. I bought eight and two and a half years, eight properties in two and a half years. Other people, if you want to take your time, it could, you could literally take your time and never buy any and a lot of people are doing that, because in 2019 they said, Oh, you know what, I'm gonna wait. There's gonna be a crash and this and that. And so they waited, they waited, and prices skyrocketed, and now they said, You know what, I'm I'm priced out of the market, so I'm just not gonna invest in real estate anymore.

Brenda 53:16

Yeah, it's that analysis paralysis. I've experienced that. Yeah, yeah, got it. Okay, cool.

Naresh Vissa 53:23

All right. So any other questions?

Brenda 53:25

No, this is really helpful. It's kind of good to know, like, kind of where you step in and kind of where you hand off, and again, the timeline is different for everybody, but it's kind of good to know that I could literally be standing here two days later and have a property if I want. So good.

Naresh Vissa 53:42

Yeah. So as we end this call, next step, so I told you about new construction versus rehab. Are you? Are you interested in both, or leaning towards one or the other? Right now? Just

Brenda 53:54

probably the rehabs, because I think, like what you said, I like the idea of the E step into like, let me see how this process goes first before kind of committing a bigger chunk of capital to something larger. Yeah, I agree.

Naresh Vissa 54:06

Okay, so here's what I'm going to do as next steps. I'm going to send you a link to the webinar we did for our hottest rehab asset class right now, hottest rehab provider out of Memphis. It's the Memphis Burkey webinar. I went ahead and just emailed that to you. So watch that webinar. It will answer like every question imaginable regarding the provider, how they do their process, the properties, everything. So watch that webinar and then shoot me an email after you're done with the webinar on what you're thinking just you can watch webinar today and you want to shoot me an email right after, just let me know what you're thinking, and we can go from there. I think that's would be the next step. Just watch that webinar, and then we'll, we'll reconnect.

Brenda 54:54

Sounds good? Okay, I like that.

Naresh Vissa 54:57

Okay, very good. Well, I sent that link to you, and. And that's about it. If you have no more questions like I said, you can add my phone number to your phone book and feel free to reach out whatever you want.

Brenda 55:07

will do. Thank you so much.

Naresh Vissa 55:09

All right, thank you. It was great.

Keith Weinhold 55:11

Yeah, I hope that you found that helpful in making America rich again. Namely, you. Of course, no two coaching calls are the same. Some GRE followers will perhaps have more questions than Brenda did. There. We are here to learn your situation. We know the mistakes you've got to avoid, and we can connect you with the best income property for you across the nation. We really filter it down to the best of the best, and besides being a truly free coaching call, we don't try to upsell you to a paid course or anything like that, because we don't even have any product to sell really. So even if you wanted to buy something from GRE, I don't know if you could, maybe unless you buy a GRE logo t shirt from our website or something like that. So keep all of your funds for the property down payment. As far as now, you can book a coaching call at GREmarketplace.com and select the free investment coaching area. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 3 56:21

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 56:41

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get rich, education.com
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525: Immigration Surge Tightens Housing Demand, How to Avoid Paying State Income Tax
28 okt· Get Rich Education
Keith highlights the unprecedented surge in immigration and its impact on housing demand. The conversation also covers state income tax policies, noting that nine states have no income tax, and the impact of international tax laws on US citizens abroad.

Immigrants now make up more than 14% of the US population, the highest proportion since 1910.

The US is facing a significant housing shortage, with an estimated 4.5 million housing units needed.

Housing shortages are expected to continue, with homelessness rates rising by 12% year over year.

Learn about the challenges of being a US citizen living abroad and the potential for double taxation.

Resources:

Connect with Tom's team at WealthAbility for a free consultation on permanently reducing taxes.

Show Notes:

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, both an immigrant surge and a big wave of US born residents is tightening housing demand near unprecedented levels. Then we're joined by show regular Tom terrific again, but it's not Tom Brady on how to legally avoid paying state income tax and the fact that if you're from the US, if you move out, you must still pay tax on your worldwide income, plus more tax strategies that you can benefit from today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:34

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show, guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 1:20

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:36

Welcome to GRE from Athens Georgia to Athens, Greece and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, get rich education. Founder, Forbes real estate council member, best selling. Author, long time real estate investor and holder of a humble bachelor's degree in geography from a college in Pennsylvania that nobody's ever heard of. It's that time of year where you now have Halloween decorations in your front yard competing hard for space with political campaign signs. What's your HOA gonna do now? Welcome in this slack shot operation right here is the get rich education podcast. I think you know that by now it's episode 525

Brace yourself, immigration has absolutely exploded. I've got the latest numbers on that, and there's a chart recently published in The Wall Street Journal that shows it all legal and illegal. We're a real estate platform, so the question I'm asking is, Where in the heck are we going to house all of these people? In addition to soaring immigration, we'll look at our own domestic US born surging population that are forming households now, and that part might have flown under your radar. This is an urgent issue. All of this isn't just coming. It is already here, this explosion of housing demand, it will indelibly shape both broader society and real estate's supply demand component for decades, it is really approaching the unprecedented we look at net immigration to the US since 2000 it's really these past four years where the numbers have shot up like a rocket through 2020 immigration averaged around 1.2 million people per year, but since 2021 it has more than doubled to around two and a half million net immigrants per year. But the number of illegals arriving among them has gone up as much as 10x starting in 2021 and the overall figures they keep rising. Last year, there were over 3 million immigrants, about three times the total number that we averaged in the first 20 years of this century. So a 3x total net inflow, legal and illegal. And these figures in the Wall Street Journal chart, they are sourced by the CBO. Now you might think that the immigrants that did not enter legally could eventually get deported, but some of them that are already living and working here, gained something called Temporary Protected Status that keeps them here. Well, our central question remains, Where in the heck are we going to house all of these immigrants in a nation of almost three 40 million people? Do you have any idea what our foreign born population is up to now, okay, so not the descendants of those people, just the foreign born population here now, out of the 340 million total US population, any guess? Venture a guess. Last year, the US foreign born population reached 47.8 million. And that figure 47 point 8 million, that is five times more than in 19 75x Do you even realize that's almost double the population of the entire continent of Australia, now crammed into the states. That's how many immigrants, 47.8 million is. It's also the same as the population of all of Spain. That's another way of saying it all in the US today. And by the way, that is my geography degree at work, right there. Hey, the geography muscle is one that I just don't get to flex enough. Immigrants now make up more than 14% of the population. That is one in seven Americans. And that proportion, right there is the most since 1910, per Pew Research. Well, where are the immigrants from? Alright? Before I get into that, if we go back about 60 years, immigrant growth accelerated after Congress made changes to US immigration laws in 1965 that was a key year before 1965 the law favored immigrants from Northern and Western Europe, and it mostly barred immigration from Asia, all right, Well, so here in modern times, where are immigrants from? Mexico is the top country in 2022, 10.6, million immigrants living in the US were born there. That is almost a quarter of all immigrants. And then the next largest origin groups in order are those from India, China, the Philippines, and then El Salvador. All right, so there are a lot of new immigrants here, like a demographic shock wave that's going to drive the demand for housing. But there's way more to this housing crunch story. Combine this nascent immigration influx along with America's own high birth rate years. And this is something that you might not be aware of, though, what I just talked about that might have been somewhat informative to you. You probably had some idea that immigration is higher now, because it's been in the news cycle for a few years here, but something that you probably don't know. And yes, fertility rates are down today, but there was a boom of US born residents from the years 1990 to 2010 and then you might say, well, so what 1990 to 2010 that was in the past? But no, actually, it is just the beginning, because when it comes to housing, it has less to do with the birth year. Currently, what you have to do is add perhaps 25 or 35 years to that birth year, because that's the age of when that person tends to start their own household. And the average age of today's first time homebuyer is 35 to 36 years old. Well, the US is peak birth year occurred in 2007 then adds 35 or so to it. And that means that, on average, they will buy their first home in the early 2040s and a lot of them were going to start renting in the 2020s and 2030s So suffice to say, a lot more Americans will need homes. Well, what else will those high birth years from 1990 to 2010 mean now and into the future? Realize that over 13,000 Americans are turning 35 every single day, both now and years in to the future, record highs. Yes, every single day, just another demographic figure that's on the rise, and there are deaths to account for as well. But the population aging into home ownership is projected to exceed the population aging out like with deaths for a long time, this will pump housing demand. The US has about 144 million housing units today, and we are going to need more housing of all types. Well, between all the fresh immigration I discussed and this US born surge, you've indubitably got the recipe for a ridiculous amount of demographic driven housing demand. And you know, maybe over the past few years, at times, you or some of your friends or family, they've wondered why housing prices have risen fast, why rents have risen fast, and why? Even a tripling of mortgage rates couldn't stop it. It could only slow it down. It's because of this demand that is just coming, and it's going to keep on coming from both the US born demographic surge and an immigrant surge. And here's the thing, as we know this is all amidst a still lackluster US housing supply today, so greater demand, yet still a meager supply. Zillow estimates that we're still four and a half million housing units short, and the housing deficit is growing, although other outlets have estimates that, you know, they really are all over the place. These estimates as to how great the shortage is, 3 million is probably closer to a good amalgamation of how severe the housing shortage is, all right. Well, how do we reduce the housing deficit? We need to start more construction, but it had its recent peak in 2022 and it's fallen since then, in single family homes, because builders faced higher interest rates then and new apartment building starts, they have fallen too. And two years ago we had a lot of apartment building starts, actually. And as you drive through major cities today, you might still see cranes in the air. You still see a lot of active apartment building construction, actually, but more of those projects began two years ago. They began to freeze as interest rates rose, and now they've just got to complete what they've already begun. It can be two years from an apartment construction start to a completion. So as some of these complete, there will be some absorption time there on apartments. But the starts are way down on apartments. This year, we should have at least double the number of apartment starts being started than what we have now. So this sets us up for more future shortages, regulation and zoning. We know that that slows down building for most any housing type, single family, homes, apartments, condos, whatever it is. And nimbyism is a condition that's especially pervasive in the construction of new apartment buildings. Neighbors don't perceive new single family homes as a threat in their neighborhood like they do apartments, whether that's warranted or not. That's how people feel. That's the sentiment. That's the type of neighbor that shows up at a public meeting and speaks out against new apartment buildings. So to summarize what you've learned so far, it's really the confluence of four housing factors coming together here, two of them for higher demand and two for lower supply. The two for higher demand are more immigrants and a surge of US born people from 1990 to 2010 that are just starting to get old enough to need their own place. That's the higher demand side. And then the two factors on the paltry supply side are both a lack of current supply and not enough building for the future. Either it is an increasingly dire situation, and it can even be in your face. Actually. How is it in your face? Well, it's one reason that you see more homeless people on the street in your nearest city, although you might see more US born homeless than you do immigrant homeless. HUD tells us that the homelessness rate has jumped 12% year over year. That's the fastest homelessness increase rate they've ever reported. I talked to you about that before, and I'm waiting for HUD to release their new number in December. They released that annually. You know, amidst this demand, supply imbalance, in fact, anymore, let's look at it this way. Let's flip the script. Consider what could possibly stop insatiable US housing demand from exceeding supply for decades. And when you do, when you think about what could stop that, it starts to get absurd a sudden, new construction technology that pumps out homes like a popcorn machine, climate change that roasts us into human popcorn, not the good kind, and AI or VR, so advanced that We're all going to live inside some sort of force field. How about an even worse pandemic, or even a world war that would have to kill at least 10s of millions of people, or something like that, or aliens or asteroids destroying Earth? Or how about a depression level economic contraction. But see all these scenarios that would derail the housing demand trend. They range from the pretty unlikely to the downright ludicrous. Starts to sound like a Sci-fi flick, and amidst a lot of those afflictions, your life's biggest concern wouldn't be your real estate investment portfolio. It would be primordial human survival. Now, before I summarize your big takeaway here, let me tell you immigration, it has near term downsides, like a lack of housing and a demand for public assistance. And yes, I know a huge pack of new immigrants can appear sort of like a Walmart at first glance, huge, chaotic and full of people that seem like they've given up on life.

But that is certainly not always the case. A lot of immigrants are ambitious long term new young people drive an economy. Immigrants have long been a backbone of innovation. A lot of our tech giants were started by immigrants or their children, and also a lot of immigrants find those construction jobs that can help us build our way out of the housing shortage crisis, but that is going to take a long time. The bottom line here is that if you're looking for your own home, waiting probably won't help. As an investor, own more properties now, own lots of rental housing, you're going to have something that everybody needs. Housing demand is expected to exceed supply well into the future. Both this US born surge of people and the immigrants, what they do is they tend to be renters for years before they become buyers, if they ever become buyers, from here today, it's a realistic scenario to expect then soaring real estate prices, higher rents and lofty occupancy rates for years.

Well, Tom terrific is back in the house, and we are talking taxes. Brady's in the gun bulletin to his left. He's got the hoo man on the right wing with Dobson to the right Collie and Tomkins left. Brady throws it to the end zone for kenbrell Tompkins. Leaping. Kenbrell Tompkins, Brady's back.

That's your quarterback. Show ponies, where's the beat? All right, that's enough. Scott zolak, Bob Sochi on the call there 95 the sports hub in Boston. No Tom. Brady is not the Tom terrific that we often have here. Brady simply doesn't know enough about taxes. We've got the tax expert with us, the extraordinary Tom. We're right. What about that spirited play call at the end there? Did he say unicorns show ponies? Where's the beef? I don't really get all that. So getting back to real estate and taxes here, look, here's the thing, when you see what your government spends money on, and you're disgusted by some of these spending programs, doesn't that give you a supreme motivation to want to reduce your taxes? Well, we're going to talk about state income taxes where they're high where they're low. There are currently nine income tax free states. Are more states looking to drop their income tax to zero and join them? Or is it going the other direction, where they're looking to raise them if you live in one state and invest in another. We'll get into how that looks too. Canadian listeners, sorry, we don't plan to have provincial income tax discussion today. Now, I seem to have become here no more for my real estate investing voice than anything else. Last month, I was in Pennsylvania for a while, and I ran into one of my high school teachers. He was the art teacher, but he also taught a class called journalism in publications. That was an elective class, and I took that class as a high school student. I think I was a senior then, well, our job was to lay out the yearbook, writing, positioning and centering this text here in that image over there. Well, I told my old journalism and publications teacher that he's been a substantial influence on me because, as you know, I write our Don't quit your Daydream letter to you about every week. And I just love doing that, I've always thought of myself as more of a writer than a talker, and I myself really enjoy writing and laying out the body and images of our newsletter and sending it to you about weekly on crucial information that you must know About, real estate investing, economics and wealth mindset. It's got a dash of humor, and every single letter can be read in less than five minutes, often less than three minutes. I would love to have you as one of our 1000s of weekly readers, and it is free. You can get it simply by texting GRE to 6866. come along and join us for real estate investing information and fun. Just take a moment and do it right now while it's on your mind. Text, GRE to 6686 lots more. Straight ahead. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get Rich education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com, that's ridgelendinggroup.com.

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Chris Martenson 21:42

this is peak prosperity's Chris Martinson. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 21:58

This week's guest is, to me, the world's foremost tax pro. He is an international authority on how you can permanently reduce your taxes, and he really makes taxes easy, fun and understandable, like no one else that I've ever met does. He runs a terrific educational platform too. It's called wealth ability. Welcome back to get rich education. Tom, we're right.

Tom Wheelwright 22:21

Thanks, Keith, always good to be here.

Keith Weinhold 22:23

Yeah, it's so good to have you back, because taxes are such a dynamic topic. And one place where I wonder if it's going to be dynamic, Tom, is we have a number of states that don't have any state income tax, which is something that people have to pay on top of their federal income tax. Federal alone can be up to 37% some of the states with the fastest population growth, like Tennessee, Florida and Texas, don't have any state income tax. So what I'm wondering, Tom is, are more states considering abolishing the income tax like those states have done.

Tom Wheelwright 22:59

We've actually seen a lot of states in the last couple of years reduced their income tax rates. So Arizona, where I live, is one of them. We went from over a potential tax rate of like eight and a half percent potential to an actual tax rate of 5% there was actually a proposal passed that would have increased it down to a tax rate of two and a half percent. Our former governor, Doug Ducey, his goal was to abolish the income tax in Arizona, and we did get down to two and a half percent. There are a number of states, typically in the middle of the country. You don't see any states on the coasts doing this, outside of Florida, that are reducing their tax rates. So you do see states doing that. You see other states that are increasing their tax rates. Recently, I was reading about Bill Belichick, and he said, Massachusetts is always hard getting the top earners, the top free agents, into New England. Because he says, This is taxachusetts, because they have a surtax on millionaires. Well, of course, all football players are millionaires. That is an issue. People are leaving states like California, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and they're moving to low tax states such as Arizona, Texas, Florida and, you know, the whole southern belt.

Keith Weinhold 24:15

with Belichick having Tom Brady. It didn't matter if he couldn't bring in the best players, because Tom Brady made stars out of nobodies. It seems like he could complete a pass to any no name wide receiver or tight end for two decades there in New England. But can you tell us more about maybe interesting dynamics with state income tax? For example, I know that California has punitively high state income taxes, and then you have other states that have tax rate tables and some that have flat taxes, like, I think Pennsylvania has about a 3% flat income tax. Colorados is 4.4 so can you tell us more?

Tom Wheelwright 24:51

Yeah, there are, you know, the federal income tax has graduated rates. We go, actually, from a zero rate to currently a 37% rate, which is not really 37% rate. It's really 41% because there's a 4% add on tax that pretty much you're gonna pay. So it's really over 40% California has a graduated tax rate, but it goes up to 13% Minnesota has a high income tax. New York has a high income tax. So Massachusetts, we're seeing high income taxes. The states that provide have big governments and provide lots of services have high tax rates. That's why we see it on the coasts. Interesting enough. Minnesota. Minnesota is the liberal state in the middle of the country, and so they have liberal states tend to have very high tax rates, and conservative states tend to have very low tax rates.

Keith Weinhold 25:45

Now we have a lot of real estate investors here that have learned that the best deals are outside their home state. So that investor might be domiciled in a Minnesota, but investing in, say, Arkansas, tell us about how the state income tax affects them.

Tom Wheelwright 25:59

So it's kind of like being a US citizen, right? You live in the US. You're taxed on your worldwide income. You live in Minnesota. You're taxed on your worldwide income in Minnesota. So by virtue of where your residency is, you are taxed on all of your income. Now you'll get a credit, typically, for taxes paid to another state. Well, let's say that your tax rate in your state is 10% and then you invest in a state with a tax rate of 3% well you're going to get tax credit of 3% so you're still going to pay 7% in your state, plus 3% that state. You're still going to pay your 10% it's just going to be some of that's going to go to another state. Some of it's going to go to your state. But in total, your tax rate is likely to be wherever you live. That's youroverall state tax rate. I'll give you another example. Let's say that you invest in Texas, you live in in Minnesota, you're going to pay Minnesota tax rates on your income, you get no credit because you have no tax in Texas. What's worse is, though, you have property tax in Texas, but you don't get a credit in Minnesota for your property tax paid in Texas. So you have much higher property taxes in Texas than you do in most states. Right? Because every state has to raise revenue, right? In Texas has decided to it largely on sales tax and property tax. So that means that you don't get that offset. Property taxes are pretty serious in Texas. If you're an investor in Texas, you know that property taxes are pretty serious, but you don't get any kind of benefit in Minnesota, but you still pick up the income in Minnesota.

Keith Weinhold 27:38

In some Texas jurisdictions, property taxes can be 3% annually based on the property's value, pretty punitive. There in Texas, Texas is a good example. That's where we have often high property tax rates, but zero state income tax. So with these other states that have zero state income tax, are they subsidizing that with property taxes or sales taxes, or in what other way are they making up that?

Tom Wheelwright 28:03

Of course, for example, we were talking earlier about Tennessee. Tennessee doesn't have a personal income tax, but if you have your real estate owned through a limited liability company, you do have a 6% tax on the income of the LLC. So even though it's a pass through entity for Tennessee purposes, it's taxed. They have all sorts of mechanisms to raise revenue. All states need revenue. Now, some states raise less revenue per capita than other states. Those are the states that people tend to move to. But don't forget those other taxes. I mean, sales taxes. Sales taxes can be very high, right? And you pay sales taxes typically don't pay them on food or prescription drugs, but you typically pay them on pretty much everything else, and including leasing a car, they're going to get their money. It's just how they get their money.

Keith Weinhold 28:50

Well, we've been talking about ways that you could potentially legally escape taxation, depending on what state that you live in. So in a domestic sense, and Tom we pull back and we think about that in an international sense. A lot of Americans don't seem to realize that if they're, I guess, born and raised and get citizenship in the United States when they become an adult and get older and they go abroad, they have to continue to pay US taxes if they move to Norway or Dubai. Can you tell us about that?

Tom Wheelwright 29:21

Yeah, so US citizens are taxed on worldwide income as long as they're a US citizen. Here's what's really interesting in the US let's say you give up your US citizenship, you're still subject to taxes on your worldwide income for 10 years. Wow, after you give up your citizenship so you no one get any of the benefits of being a citizen. You've given that up, and you still have taxes for 10 years. Earlier this year, we did an episode, and we talked a little bit about this unrealized capital gains tax, right? People don't think, well, I'll just leave. Doesn't work that way. You're still going to have the capital gains tax for at least 10 years, and the only way to get rid of it is to give up your citizenship and wait 10 years. It's a pretty restrictive law, because most countries only tax if you live there, if you're a citizen of France, but you move to Belgium, you're taxed in Belgium, you're not taxed in France. Not true with us.

Keith Weinhold 30:19

Yeah, that's remarkable. I didn't know about that 10 year thing. Even if you renounce your citizenship, those taxes will follow you for 10 years regardless of where else in the world you live. Um, I'm just maybe this is a little bit of devil's advocate. I mean, this sounds preposterous when we first think about how Americans are taxed abroad for the rest of their life, but maybe thinking of it philosophically, if it does make sense in any way, which is really hard for me to say, but maybe it's because, okay, well, you were born and raised in the United States, where we have this very mature infrastructure and stable currency and good educational system, so you got to be a beneficiary of that. So when you're 30, you can't move away and never give us any tax money to support that. Again, what are your thoughts with that?

Tom Wheelwright 31:02

different countries have different tax systems? What I will say is, just like the state discussion, you do get a credit for taxes paid to another country. So if you have income taxes, let's say you're living in Portugal and you pay Portuguese income taxes, you're not going to pay taxes twice. You're going to pay the higher of the two rates, either the Portuguese tax rate or the US tax rate, but you should not be paying tax twice. Now, if you're going to do that, you need a really good team of tax professionals. You need a good US tax professional, and you need a good tax professional where you live, and those two tax professionals need to talk to each other on a regular basis, because otherwise you can end up paying double tax, and that is the worst of all worlds. You do not want to end up paying double tax. So make sure that just know that if you're going to invest in another country, or you're going to live in another country, you need double the tax advice.

Keith Weinhold 31:05

I am just going to speculate that there are an awful lot of people that don't consider taxes before they move, whether that's domestic or international, not that that should be the top consideration, but a lot of people probably aren't even thinking about it.

Tom Wheelwright 32:13

A lot of people aren't. That's true. Now, are there ways to reduce your taxes internationally, particularly if you're in business? Yes, there are ways that you can reduce your taxes. So know that there is still tax planning available. But I hear about people saying, I'm going to invest in the Dominican Republican, or I'm going to invest in Dubai, or I'm going to invest somewhere else. Just know that you've got now two sets of laws that you're working with you're working with US laws, and you're working with that country's laws. And so make sure that you've got good advisory on both sides. When we're talking about moving for tax considerations, we should cover Puerto Rico. Tell us about the advantageous tax laws for Puerto Rico, and if they're going to sunset, they're there for the foreseeable future. So Puerto Rico, depending on how you earn your income, you can potentially reduce your income tax rate from the current 37% rate in the US to 4% yeah, that's basically an agreement with Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is still the US, but it's got special laws that it's almost like a treaty, right? Even though it's a territory of the US. And what happens is, is that if you set it up properly, you got to live there, by the way, you can't just pretend. You got to live there six months in a day out of the year, over six months a year. And if you do, then you get a 4% tax rate on the income you earn while you're in Puerto Rico. If you earn income while you're in the mainland, you're going to pay tax on the mainland, but the income you earn in Puerto Rico, you're going to pay 4% tax. And there are certain types of income that that works for certain types of income, it doesn't just make sure that this is one where you need a Puerto Rican tax advisor as well as your US tax advisor. Capital Gains also have they have a potential tax rate of zero. So there are obviously details you have to follow again, make sure, before you get into that, know that there are huge tax benefits for living in Puerto Rico. No question. You know, it's the Puerto Rican discount. What can I say? We say in Arizona that California has a beach tax and we have a desert discount. The same was true in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico has a Puerto Rican discount. That's what it is.

Keith Weinhold 34:24

Yeah, you're going to be getting on a plane a lot in order to go anywhere. I know an awful lot of entrepreneurs that have relocated to Puerto Rico. You do too. Tom, you the listener, probably do as well. It's really important to have the right team before you make such considerations. And before we're done today, Tom and I will talk about how you can connect with him and learn more. But Tom, since we last had you here, you updated your terrific book, which I have on my bookshelf called Tax Free Wealth. Tell us about the updates and changes you made to the book.

Tom Wheelwright 34:56

We do a new edition of tax free wealth every time there's a major change in the tax law. So the second edition was the 2017 tax law, because that was a major change. Since 2017 though we've had six major changes to the tax law, we had a bunch of major tax law changes during COVID And so what we did was we actually took the 2017 and all the new ones, werolled them all into a new edition. By far. This is the best edition of tax free wealth by a long shot. I mean, I think tax free wealth, you know, got good bones to it. It's a good book. Got almost 4005 star reviews on Amazon. This is the one I like the best, by far.

Keith Weinhold 35:18

Tax Free wealth, I read the original edition, and it's not like watching motorcycles jump off ramps, but for a tax book, it's actually really a good read there. He really brings life and some good examples to how you can permanently reduce your taxes. Tom, you and your terrific firm wealth ability have been helping people do that for years. If you the listener, want to Tom's team and Tom's referral network to help you permanently reduce your taxes. We have a resource for you atget rich education.com/taxwe can actually set up a free consultation to confirm if indeed they can help you in your situation. And Tom, why don't you talk to us some more about the importance of having the right tax pro on your team, and how they're not actually an expense, but really they're an incentive to you, because the fastest way to get an ROI is actually by reducing your taxes, because it can be done almost instantly.

Tom Wheelwright 35:36

Yeah, for sure. And what's important is that you have a relationship with a tax advisor that does give you tax advice. That's why it's called a tax advisor. They actually give you tax advice, and they willing to give it to you. And they're not waffling. They're not saying, Well, I don't know, or they're not backing off. They're saying, Well, look, if you do this, this is what you get. You have to choose whether you want to make those changes to your situation, but they're going to give you, you know, what changes you can make to your facts in order to reduce your taxes. I think the most important thing, though, is that you have a partnership with your CPA, that this is a true relationship. And we've actually changed the way we work with clients. We used to charge for projects. We used to charge for tax returns. What we want is a relationship, so we basically charge a monthly fee for the relationship. So that's a recent change in our model, you're going to see more and more CPAs go to that model, because it is a much more comfortable model for both the CPA and for the client. But what we want to do is we want to emphasize the relationship. We don't want you to feel like every time you pick up the phone, you're going to get charged. We don't want you to feel like, well, all that tax return fee is just killing me. No, it's not a tax return fee, it's a monthly fee. It's an annual fee, billed monthly, is what it is. And that way you have something come up, you don't have to worry about them and get a bill for it. You have even an IRS audit come up. Once you're a client with us for a year. After the first year, we'll then allow you to pay a small monthly fee so that when you get audited, you won't pay us for handling the audit. We call that an audit defense plan. I talk about that in tax free wealth. To me, we've been operating this way. So my firm, which I worked with people like Robert Kiyosaki, we've been operating this way for several years, and it is the best way to work with a tax advisor, because you always have that relationship, and you never have to worry. I'm not going to get this big tax bill, this big fee, like you do for an attorney, right? You don't call your attorney, because you can get a big fee, right? Every minute it's going to be a big fee. This is a great way to work with a tax advisor and make sure that you can be proactive, and they can be proactive. It's really a great way to help build the relationship over time, which is something that you're going to want to have over time again. If you want to learn more and have that free consultation, you can start at get rich education.com/tax.

Keith Weinhold 38:56

Tom, it's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Tom Wheelwright 38:59

Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 39:06

Nine states don't have an earned income tax. Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. And the way to avoid state income tax is clearly to start by living in one of those states. I don't believe that moving to one just for tax reasons, is a good idea, though, like I was saying earlier, do you agree with how your government is spending your tax dollars? If you don't, then you owe it to yourself to reduce your tax burden, otherwise, you are just helping to fuel reckless spending. And when you lower your tax burden, not only do you stop fueling reckless spending, of course, you increase your own personal return on investment. You know in fact. This paying any more tax than you have to fuel a kleptocracy. I think it's at least worth asking the question then, because this is get rich education, little learning moments, some vocab rehab. Here, you can think of a kleptocracy as being synonymous with a fevocracy. The strict definition of a kleptocracy is a government whose corrupt leaders use political power to expropriate the wealth of the people and land they govern, typically by embezzling or expropriating government funds at the expense of the wider population. All right, well, is that a little too strong for the behavior of our elected leaders or not? I'll let you decide that. But see, most of the 1000s of pages of the US tax code does not outline the taxes that you have to pay. Did you realize that the vast majority of the IRS Code is a guidebook to help you reduce your taxes that are in those tax tables. Well, now my own tax return is hundreds of pages long, and a lot of it outlines how my taxes have been reduced for that tax year. Well, Tom's excellent book called tax free wealth is sort of a digestible way to make the reading more fun than any psycho that would read the entire IRS tax code, but to make it even easier than that, it's really a good opportunity to connect with Tom's team and see exactly how they can help you reduce your tax In your specific situation, and is especially helpful for real estate investors and business owners. You know that I often like to leave you with something actionable. You can book a free consult at getrich education.com/tax that's get richeducation.com/tax.

Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 2 42:06

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:34

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com you
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524: How is Your Tenant Doing? and Creative Deal Structuring with Zero Down Payment
21 okt· Get Rich Education
Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

Keith discusses the financial health of tenants, noting that 75% of new renters earn over $75,000 annually. He is joined by GRE Investment Coach Naresh Vissa to highlight the incentives offered by new build property providers, including interest rates in the 4's and up to $30,000 in immediate equity.

New build homes now cost only 1% more than resale homes.

Rent-to-income ratios remain stable at 31%, despite wage growth outpacing rent growth.

Current market conditions offer a unique opportunity to build wealth through real estate.

Attend the live online event on Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern to learn more about the new build property incentives.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we check in on the health of your tenant. How are they doing financially? Learn why new build homes now cost about the same as existing homes. Then learn about creative financing and how to put zero money down on an income property today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:26

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold, writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who keep top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:11

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:27

Welcome to GRE from Lewiston, Maine to Lewiston, Idaho and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. Don't live below your means. Grow Your means, you need a proven wealth building vehicle that pays you multiple ways, like real estate or a business, because in order to build legacy wealth, otherwise, how many Papa John's coupons are you going to have to collect that's living below your means, something that's not sustainable long term, not where you want to be. And you know something your first million that takes a while for you to reach a net worth of a million dollars, that can take over 30 years, like the first 30 plus years of your life. Let's say then you are age 32 until you reach the million dollar mark. Well, your next million Okay, so a $2 million net worth, that's not going to take you another 32 years, but maybe, if your sole source of income is trading your time for dollars at a job, you won't hit the $2 million net worth Mark until age 40 to 45 but instead, if you've got leveraged rental property, ah, now you've got other people's money working for you, and a 5x multiplier on your skin in the game, and that's something that a 401K is never going to give you. And instead of hitting 2 million at age 40 or 45 like the day job worker, well, you can hit a four or $5 million net worth mark at that age, setting you up for an early retirement, or at least that option to do so your life is going to feel different when working is An option, not an obligation, and all that sure can happen even sooner. If you think you are behind, from what I was just talking about, there, you find yourself behind those net worth figures. Well, the vehicle of real estate pays five ways. Is what's going to allow you to catch up, and you might be simultaneously measuring your wealth in cash flow as much or more than in net worth terms. Anyway, chances are you do, though, have more wealth today than you have ever had in your entire life, and that's because here in late 2024 we're at a time when just about every asset imaginable is at or near all time highs, real estate, stocks, gold, Bitcoin, and perhaps the number one traded commodity in the world, oil, is one of the few substantial outliers where that is not true. Well, now that we've checked in on how your wealth building is progressing. How about the financial health of your tenant? That's important because you want them to have the ability to pay your mortgages and your operating expenses for you. Well, there seems to be a weird narrative that tenants, you know, like they're always these jilted wannabe homeowners, or like they're auditioning for a season of Survivor, barely living above the poverty line, destitute and eating macaroni and cheese three times a day. Now, there are some of those cases, for sure, but 75% of new rent. Have incomes above $75,000 well, then maybe they eat at the Cheesecake Factory monthly. Even the wealthiest Americans are turning into forever renters. We have seen the rise of the millionaire renter. More than 11% of renters have an annual income over $750,000 that is pretty Wall Street Journal. Gosh, I guess that caviar and truffles are in the home. And what are they doing for cheese? Forget Kraft Singles. My guess for them is that only artisanal cheeses are eaten off of little wooden boards. The census itself recently published research declaring this headline, incomes are keeping up with rent increases. Now you might find it really surprising that tenant rent to income ratios haven't materially changed over the last dozen years. Last year, US renters shelled out a 31% share of their income on rent, and that is actually much like they have for a long time. In fact, between 30 and 32% every year since 2011 that's what the figure's been and to be clear, what we're talking about here again is the rent to income ratio. It's simple. It's just the proportion of your tenants income that goes toward rent. 31% or you might think, Well, wait, how can this be? Because there sure are a lot of headlines around rent burdened households. And for a while there previously, we had wage growth lagging rent growth, although wage growth is ahead of CPI now, and it has been for quite a few months. All right. Well, here's what's happening. Really, it's three things, renter incomes are growing faster than homeowner incomes. Secondly, the struggle is real for low income renters. And thirdly, new construction units. In recent years, they tend to be created for middle and upper income households. All right, so let's break this down. The first phenomenon occurring, renter incomes are growing faster than homeowner incomes. Yes, younger Americans, they're more often renters, and they have more income growth than older generations do. Secondly, like I was saying, the struggle really is a thing for low income renters, they tend to rent apartments more often than single family homes, and census stats show the rent burden household growth in those is occurring with those that make under 75k a year. That's where their distress is, and of course, it's especially bad among those making under 50k a year, and many of them don't receive rental assistance, and inflation has affected that group worse. And then the third reason for these stable rent to income ratios are that new construction units in recent years, they tended to be created for middle and upper income households, so we haven't built nearly enough affordable housing driving demand and rent prices, and again, that crushes those lower income households. And hey, I do want to credit terrific rental housing economist Jay Parsons for bringing some of this to light. The bottom line here and what you've learned about the financial health of renters today, actually, you didn't learn anything. All I did was talk about cheese, really, though, the lesson is that Rental Affordability has become more bifurcated. It's worsened for the lowest income households, but overall, rent to income ratios are still steady near 31% I mean, really, who knew that stability could be so predictable? Now there's another sort of misconception, or I guess anomaly really, in today's real estate market, and that is the fact that new build homes don't cost much more than older resale homes. In fact, today, the median new bill home sells for 421k That's not much more than that of an existing home at 417k that's only about a 1% difference. It's really an unusually small disparity, just a 1% premium for a new home today over a resale home. All right. Well, what is going on here? One reason for this is the very well documented interest rate lock in effect existing homeowners aren't giving up their property. Another is that the new build properties are smaller than they were in years past. Helping keep their prices in check. And a third reason for why new build homes cost almost the same as existing homes today, weirdly, is that home builders they are giving buyers incentives to purchase new build homes today because buyers often need down payment and closing cost help in order to get in. And we're going to talk about one especially good new build incentive program for these brand new properties later in the show today, and what you can do with creative financing there. The real lesson here is, if you can, you want to give more consideration to owning more new build income property today than you might have in years past, because they're down to about the same price as resale properties, only costing 1% more, on average, and this is all based on data from the census, HUD and the NAR. So again, just about 421k for new builds and 417k for resale single family homes today, they are the median prices

you can follow get rich education at all the usual places on social, Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok X and YouTube. To highlight one of those, you will find particular value in the get rich education YouTube channel that is me over there, video of me speaking directly to you and showing you things there visually on YouTube that I cannot do here on an audio podcast. Also, if you have a particular thought, comment, question or concern, understand, we can't personally respond to them all, but you can go ahead and write in or leave voice communication at getricheducation.com/contact we do read and listen to them all that's getricheducation.com/contact in order to reach us. And thank you so much for all of the sincere congratulations and wishes that you left over there for us on the GRE podcast, hitting 10 years of contribution to real estate investors, serving you every single week without fail and never playing any repeat episodes, always serving you with a fresh episode. Much more. Next, I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President changley Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com.

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Robert Helms 13:57

Hey everybody, it's Robert Helms of the real estate guys radio program. So glad you found Keith Weinhold in get rich education. Don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 14:19

Well, I'd like to welcome in a GRE investment coach. He's got both the formal credentials, and he's doing the real thing too, holding a master's degree from Duke's business school, and then, before coming to GRE in 2021 he worked at both banks and financial publishing companies, but importantly, for years now, he's been an active real estate investor, just like you and I. Hey, welcome back onto the show. Naresh Vissa.

Naresh Vissa 14:45

Thanks so much for having me back on looking forward to talking real estate. There's a lot going on for sure.

Keith Weinhold 14:51

You know, I always give you an illustrious bio to live up to before you speak, but then you do always live up to it. Well, Naresh. Before we narrow down, let's pull back and take a wide angle view. Give us your take on the direction or trends. What's important in today's market for real estate investors?

Naresh Vissa 15:11

Keith, the market has changed a lot, and it's very much investor friendly right now. The reason is because, and we've talked about this, I think, in my last two or three episodes where we previous saw rising interest rates and stagnant interest rates that were relatively high for let's say a millennial. That's been a hot topic called millennials aren't able to afford home buying what we're seeing now because the Federal Reserve cut interest rates tremendously, significantly and almost unexpected. The First Cut they did was 50 basis points, which I think was a mistake, just like I think it was a mistake for them not to raise rates one more time last year, in 2023 one or two more times to help bring inflation down further, I think they're making a mistake by jumping the gun, and instead of a 25 BPS cut as the first cut, doing a 50 BPS cut. The reason why I bring this up is because mortgage rates are plummeting. They have plummeted, and they continue to plummet. So as a home buyer, where the economy still isn't we're not at peak employment. In fact, the unemployment rate is still in the fours, so the economy isn't the greatest which means home values aren't at peak levels. Per se, some people are making the case that we could see home values could be coming down while interest rates come down. So right now, what that means is, when you have falling interest rates and either stagnant home values or maybe even some declining real estate values in some areas of the country, that markets that we focus on other markets we don't focus on, when you combine all that, this is that inflection point where it's actually a really, really good time to jump in. There is a little bit of political uncertainty in that we don't know who's going to win the election. We don't know who's going to win Congress. What's even more important than who becomes president is Congress. Which party wins the house, which party wins the Senate? Because you've written about it in your newsletter, Keith, the Democrats and the Republicans have very different housing policies, and we could do an entire episode on each party and what their housing policy is. I will keep it simple. Here's the cliff note version. If we have the same party in all the chambers of the government the same political party, then we'll see a tremendous impact in the real estate market. I think if the Democrats sweep then you're going to see real estate home values go back up, inflation go back up. Because Kamala Harris is, she is a main proponent of giving basically a $25,000 off coupon to first time homebuyers. So that's across the board all 50 states. Basically you got $25,000 off. What I've learned with coupons, I'm sure you know this, Keith, most coupons actually are a terrible deal. You get something in the mail that's a coupon. You either spend it or you call the service provider and they jack up the price. So you think you're getting a good deal, but they end up jacking up the price even more than what market value is, and that's what's going to happen to housing where you're going to have so many young like I said, millennials, Gen Zers, who are looking to buy their first home, they think they're getting such a great deal because of this $25,000 off coupon, when, in reality, after about three months of this program, you're going to see we're going to be back to 2021, end of 2021, beginning of 2022, all over again, where homes will enter into bidding wars. Now, if there's a split, President is one party and Congress has split, then there's actually going to be almost no change, which could be a good thing. We're not going to see much change at all. It's just going to be the mostly the status quo. Really the only change is going to be on tariffs, If Trump were to win, or foreign policy, those are going to be the two main issues, regardless of which party wins, if there's a split. So the bottom line is that right now, despite this uncertainty, I've heard from a lot of GRE clients, oh, I don't want to do anything because of this election. I've asked for the logic and like, the election, should it really change? Because right now is still an excellent time, like I said, with stagnant home values with plummeting interest rates, really through the end of the year, and as the Fed keeps cutting rates, which I think they're going to engage in a prolonged rate cut cycle for quite a while, and rates are only going to keep going down. So that's my general view of the current state of mortgage rates, the Federal risk. Reserve the election housing markets?

Keith Weinhold 20:03

Yes, Naresh is talking about a newsletter that I sent to you last month where I basically show that, historically, presidential elections really don't affect the real estate market price appreciation much at all. They might affect stocks in the short term, though, which are more volatile and Naresh, do you want to tell me a bit more about why you seem to be rather bullish this year for real estate investors, of course, things change. Last year you were more bearish. You had more negative sentiment about the investor environment. So are there any other reasons why you see more positivity today, other than lower interest rates?

Naresh Vissa 20:37

Yeah. Well, last year, like I said, where I touched on, we saw peak interest rates. So the Fed stopped raising around the end of last summer. I want to say maybe July of 2023 it was, yes, the interest rates stayed high. There was almost no movement until relatively recently, let's say over the last three months, when it was factored into the market that the Fed was going to begin its rate cutting cycle. So the reason why I don't want to say I was bearish on real estate last year, because we have some providers, for example, partners of ours, who offered really, really good and they still are offering really, really good incentives, which help offset the high interest rates this time around, like I said, with the unemployment situation, we're in the force in more layoffs. Archive, the media isn't talking enough about layoffs, large companies, large tech companies, manufacturing jobs. Layoffs have been rampant for the past two years. This is not a recent phenomena, and it's finally showing up in the unemployment data. And if you look at real unemployment data at a website like shadow stats, it's really more than 4% and the number of people are working multiple jobs. That's not really factored into the unemployed. You know, one person working three jobs, for example, you gotta have a way to factor that in, which government hasn't figured out lately. So the point that I'm making here is that if you have a job right now, if you're making cash flow, if you have a job, then you're going to find this as an opportunity with the lower interest rates, with knowing that home values have somewhat declined recently, this is a good opportunity to jump in and get good cash flowing real estate. Now, I did touch on the previous question about Kamala Harris's real estate plan, $25,000 coupon, which will certainly lead to real estate. You can call it real estate appreciation. You can call it inflation. But one thing that I should talk about the other side, which is if Trump and the Republicans were to sweep, then we're going to see mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, illegal immigrants, and that's going to affect the housing market tremendously. And how is it going to do that? Because it's estimated that at least 8 million people are going to be deported over the four year period. Those 8 million people right now are all renters. Close to 100% of them are renters. I think that would actually be somewhat deflationary, at least in the rental market, maybe not in the housing market per se, because a lot of these people aren't necessarily home buyers, but in the rental market, we could likely see a stagnation of rental growth mixed in that's making the assumption that building picks up, and Trump has already said. Both Trump and Harris have said that they're going to incentivize home builders to build more multifamily, build more apartments, build more. In Trump's case, he did these opportunity zones, which he wants to do more of, build more single family housing. It's definitely a supply side issue more so than a demand issue, but both supply and demand always contribute to the equation as a whole. So what does all this mean? Again? Forget about the election. Forget about November 5, which is election day. Right now is a really good time, because interest rates are plummeting. Home values have remained stagnant. In some cases, home values have come down. And the best part, we work with providers who are still offering really amazing incentives. And on october 24 at 8pm we are hosting a webinar to share what I think is our best incentive program yet. That's Thursday, October 24 where you can get class, a new build of properties with interest rates in the 4's that's with that you're not even buying down the interest rate, the interest with special deals, special incentives, special financing, interest rates in the fours, up to $30,000 in immediate equity because of these incentives. And the best part, we even have an option that's zero money down, zero money down there are incentives that are giving back cash at closing. So it's, you buy a property, you as a buyer, get cash back at closing. There are just too many incentives to name here. I've named, I think, five different ones. And this is not a case of you pick one out of the five. In some cases, you might qualify for all five. So october 24 it's before the election. It's live. I'm going to be on live with a special guest who is a very well known, seasoned real estate investor and licensed real estate broker, one of the most well known real estate personalities in the country. So I highly recommend our file go to GREwebinars.com GREwebinars.com to register for that free special event.

Keith Weinhold 25:46

Now you, as a real estate investor, are probably encouraged by this environment of lower and lower interest rates as well you should be, but sometimes it can help to ask yourself the question, okay, how do lower interest rates affect who I'm purchasing a property from. In this case, with the event narration I are talking about, it's new build properties and home builders. They see more competition now coming from the resale market due to the fact that interest rates have fallen so interest rates are thawing out the locked up resale market thawing out this lock in effect, and that's because existing home sellers, well, they're a little bit more willing to sell because the replacement home no longer has an interest rate that's as high over there in the resale market, and lower rates also, of course, mean that more buyers qualify to buy resale homes. So see new home builders, they now have more competition from the resale market, so consequently they're more willing to give you a strong incentive to buy from them. So take advantage of what Naresh and I are talking about coming up in just three days here on Thursday.

Naresh Vissa 26:53

Yes, and I want to reiterate, GREwebinars.com GREwebinars.com this is a online special event. We've done several of these in the past. I've done, I think this is maybe my fifth online special event. Again, I've never seen incentives like what our provider is going to be sharing on this webinar. And you can only get these incentives by attending the webinar, or registering for the webinar, watching the replay after we're talking the rates in the 4's, they will buy down the rate for you. So it's a great deal to have somebody else buy down your rate. You'll get money back at closing if you opt for that. So that's basically a rebate that you'll be getting as the home buyer. Just really, really good overall incentives being offered. And like I said, we set this up because this is a perfect time. We are in a situation, the first time since 2020 since the pandemic, where we're seeing plummeting interest rates, stagnation of home values, kind of uncertainty, because we're in this time of purgatory, just like we were in 2020 before the election. Just think about how many investors, most real estate investors, say right now, they say, Oh, I wish I bought everything in 2020, right? Well, we're in a similar situation now, where, again, home values, interest rates, and this state of purgatory of what's going to happen. We're in a very similar situation. And just think about that emotion, because I hear it almost every day, or when I tell people, Hey, I own real estate myself, and I bought most of my properties before 2021 the last property I bought was in 2020 and they say, Oh, wow. Like, you're a genius. You're so smart. Like, how did you know to buy man and again, similar environment, even 2009 2010 2011 even 2012 similar environment where interest rates were very low. 2009 was when they were plummeting. And you think back of I was too young back then, but I know, Keith, you were an investor back then, but you bought in 2009 you did even better than buying in 2020

Keith Weinhold 29:00

That's right. And in fact, in all the years that I've been buying real estate, I have never bought a property with incentives as good as what you and your co host are going to be talking about at GRE's live event coming up on Thursday night, just starting with a full 10% of the purchase price in credit back to the buyer, and there's more to it. You'll learn all about it again on GRE 's live event for new build, turnkey income properties with zero money down potentially. It is co hosted by Naresh in the guest that I had here last week, Zach. Again, it is on Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern. You can register now at GREwebinars.com and you will be hearing more from Naresh then. Naresh has been great having you back on the show.

Naresh Vissa 29:49

Thank you, Keith and I'll see everyone on october 24 GRE webinars.com to register. Thanks.

Keith Weinhold 30:01

yes, you'll hear more from Naresh and co host Zach on Thursday's live event each year, homebuyers often take a step back in the fall, this time of year. Understand though, that year over year, they are up about 4% per the NAR as of this time. And when it comes to the political effect on housing. You already know what I think. I don't put much emphasis there. Today, I am better off than I was four years ago, and it has nothing to do with who the President was or was in Congress, and in the preceding four years, I became better off during that time period too, because what happens in my house and what happens in your house is more important than what happens in the White House. As Naresh and I are talking about new build property here, and you're hearing about extremely attractive incentives. Hey, let's not let the point be lost. New build properties can be profitable for you over time due to lower maintenance costs. New builds have lower insurance premiums, and that's on top of how we discussed you could get low interest rates in in southeastern high growth path of progress markets in our upcoming live online event, and at the least, you will learn about creative deal structuring, and you know, when it comes to zero money down like that very concept, there was a time in my life where I thought, yeah, that sounds about as real as athletic brand beer, or about as real as lab grown meat, but all three actually exist. Here's what's exciting, we have partnered with major builders that are sitting on excess new build inventory right now, like Lennar and DR Horton, to help bring you institutional level pricing. Your name does not have to be BlackRock. And this is something we've never done before here at GRE these new build properties in those fast growing areas of the southeast, they're often single family rentals. And yes, you know what I like to say about single family rentals. Stainless steel appliances are great, as long as you or your tenant never touch them. But to be clear, there are two levels of incentives we've been promised. So we've got to have this event now before they vanish. You can potentially use both, first, up to a 10% credit at closing, so yes, on a 250k market value property, as much as a 25k credit and then secondly, a 5% down payment we've paired with credit unions in local markets that make Portfolio loans to investors, and that is up to five properties max. And to get that 5% down, you must qualify, just like you would for most any mortgage loan. And by the way, do you know what a portfolio loan means? That means when the bank or credit union makes the loan, it'll go sell that off to a secondary market and have it packaged into a mortgage backed security. What the bank or the credit union does is they keep that in their own portfolio. A portfolio loan does not mean that the lender makes a loan against your existing properties in your portfolio. That's what I used to think when I was a new investor, but that is a misnomer. That's not what a portfolio loan is. Well, with these incentives, if you get a 10% credit and only spend a 5% down payment plus four to 5% on closing costs, hey, there you are. You are in with zero down payment. It's a chance for you to get your fit together. Yes, what fits you is zero down right for you. I mean, you know that I am a staunch leverage proponent, but if that's not right for you, you can use your 10% cash back discount elsewhere, like buying down your mortgage rate to about 4% maybe even three point something percent. And see right here, this is exactly where the deal structuring gets fun incentives like this don't last. When the inventory is gone, it's gone show up live, and that way you can also have any of your questions answered if you have them, yes, our online event is an even bigger deal in fantasy football. Well, I trust that you learned something useful today on this week's episode of the get rich education podcast, to review, it's how tenant rent to income ratios are actually stable near 31% on why new build properties only cost about 1% more than existing properties today. And all about creative deal structuring, where you can own brand new new build income properties potentially with as little as 5% down and perhaps zero down payment. It's a really good opportunity. We sure have mentioned it before, but one last time, all the action takes place Thursday, October 24 at 8pm eastern at GREwebinars.com. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith weinhold, don't quit with your Daydream

Speaker 2 35:27

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 35:55

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building Getricheducation.com.
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523: How to Vet a Property Manager
14 okt· Get Rich Education
Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

On this week's episode, Keith shares how to vet and onboard a property manager, emphasizing the importance of their role in tenant relations and net operating income. He is also joined by our guest, seasoned investor and turnkey expert, to highlight the benefits of new construction properties with zero money down, leveraging builder incentives and portfolio loans.

Learn the key qualifications to look for in a property manager, typical management fee structures and questions to ask.

Hear about the benefits of new construction homes, including consistent income, quality tenants, and growth potential.

We discuss the potential for 10% builder credits and 5% down portfolio loans.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, how do you vet a property manager and maintain an onboarding relationship with them over time? I just hired one, and I'll tell you how I did it. Then there's a trend to exploit in today's real estate market, with the opportunity to place zero money down on brand new build property today on Get Rich Education.

00:27

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show, guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:29

Welcome to GRE Yeah. This is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing for more than 10 years now. This is episode 523, and I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, let's talk about how to vet a property manager. After all, they are what make your real estate investment mostly passive. I recently hired a new property manager. Of course, I have one in each geographic area where I own property. Now, instead, you can self manage from a distance, but sooner or later, you probably won't feel that's the highest and best use of your time. As friend of GRE and host of the real estate guys radio show, Robert Helms says, Life is too short for property management. And you know, when it comes to managing your property, still today, you can't just have an AI do that, and to be your property manager is the most important piece of your team, because they're the ones that handle all the tenant relations, collect your rent, and They control your occupancy rate too. I think you can make the case that a property manager is even more important in larger apartment buildings than they are in, say, single family rentals up to fourplexes, and that's for a few reasons. Number one, because managers drive your net operating income your noi in apartments. Okay, so that doesn't just drive your income. That drives the very valuation of the property, since apartments are the NOI divided by the cap rate. And secondly, one bad or noisy tenant can make other apartment tenants miserable. Yet if there's one noisy single family home tenant, well others might not even know about it or hear them. So a manager is more important in large apartments than smaller units. But let's not let the point be missed. They are crucial, just vital either way. And when it comes to qualifying a property manager, you know, before you reach out to that manager, do some research on your own. First, like first, I like to see if I have any friends that use that management company, and I like to get feedback from them. Also like to read reviews and see what current investors that use that property manager say about them in forums. And you know from real world experience, if you've been an investor for any period of time, it's a little sad to say, but getting reviews that are merely adequate or average, that might be good enough. There are many places in life where I accept mediocrity, although property management is probably one of them, because it's just a tough job where that manager has to adjudicate, use their judgment and walk a line between two antagonistic parties, and those parties are you and Your tenants. So adequate is good enough. Management is just one of those industries. It's kind of like airlines always seem to get bad reviews too. If there's a rating system out there for umpires and referees, it would probably be the same users only comment when there's a problem. Well. So when vetting a property manager next, I like to know how long they've been in business. I also like to know how many properties that manager currently manages, how many units they have in their management portfolio. And with this latest manager that I just recently hired, it happened to be 325 properties. That's a good number. And this manager also happens to be one in a network of a nationwide management franchise. So there are some systems and some economies of scale that I'm getting, and there are a lot of mom and pop managers too, and they can often do a good job as well of scaling and automation. A lot of managers, for example, they leverage a software like app folio, where you as an investor, you can log in and see your investor activity and your owner draws there. So this particular new manager that I hire, they have those 325, properties that they manage. But speaking to geography, I learned that their brick and mortar presence, their main office, it's a full 45 minutes away from where I have my properties all clustered. That's not ideal to have my properties far flung from their hub, because you want your properties to get adequate attention. And you can imagine, if your properties are too far for where most of their operations are. Well, then your properties might not get enough attention, but I learned that they already have 20 properties in the immediate area of mine, and that their maintenance man also happens to live near my property, so in this case, 45 minutes from the satellite office. Although it's not ideal, it did work for me. This new manager that I hired has the tenants rent be due on the first of the month, but they have a grace period to pay until the fifth and then the owner draws. They're made around the 10th of the month and the owner draws. That means when the manager makes their payment, to me, the investor, which is after they collected all the rents, minus their management fees and maintenance expenses. All right. Well, all that stuff is pretty typical, and let me tell you now about their management fee structure. And again, this is pretty typical. And by the way, I don't try to negotiate fees with managers in most cases, maybe, unless I have an awful lot of properties with them, they have a monthly management fee of 8% now 10% that's a pretty common fee out there as well, meaning that if rent is $2,000 they take $160 each month in a management fee. That's that 8% and then additionally their leasing fee is one half month, meaning that when they screen and place a new tenant for me, they get $1,000 at that time again, on this example of a $2,000 rent, and I pay a $150 re leasing fee, meaning If they release the unit to that same tenant after, say, their first year or two lease expires, ask your manager if they do markups on maintenance bills. For example, if they subcontract a plumber, and those plumber charges are $500 over to the manager. Does a manager tack on, say, 10% to that charge and then charge you $550 or not? Preferably, the answer is no markups like that can be another profit center for property management companies. However, what this manager does is instead, they have a trip charge of $55 for when their maintenance guy visits the property, and I was okay with that. That's reasonable. Also ask your property manager, if they do regular inspections of your properties, that means that they physically go inside the unit from time to time to confirm that everything is on right, that your tenant is trading a property with respect and that there aren't any deferred maintenance items cropping up, like delaminated flooring or some kind of water leak that needs attention. And this particular manager that I just decided to hire, they charge $75 a year for two of these annual inspections, so they physically go inside the unit every six months for a comprehensive check, which is a really good idea. And I love that they do that. Another tactic that I take when vetting a property manager is to ask them, you know, just a detailed question or two, really feel out their operations. It can be a good idea for you to do something like this. For example, I told this new manager that you know, in the past with other management companies or ones I still use, you know, I've seen managers they try to charge me for clearing a clogged sink drain. Well, I've let managers know I shouldn't. Not be seeing charges like that at all. In almost every instance, clearing clogs that should be charged to the tenant, not me. I mean, obstructions don't float up from water and septic systems. So in most cases, that is what's happening. So you know, the tenant is at fault for getting something clogged in there in almost every case. Now, one exception might be that, I don't know, tree roots encroach on plumbing or something like that. Okay? But the point is, when you ask about something like that, you're showing your property manager that you're savvy and you can't be taken advantage of. Okay? They have got to be the ones that pushes back on the tenant, sometimes not pushing on you every time, just because they feel like you're the one that can afford the expense more than the tenant. So that sets some expectations for the ongoing relationship. Also talk to your property manager about your communication preferences over time. Now, for me personally, I don't want an intrusive text message unless it's something that's pretty urgent. I prefer email communication, and the manager does not need to email me every time they need approval of expenses less than, say, $300 now, when you get more faith in your manager later, you might want to bump that number up to $500 or whatever your number is. Now, at times I do like to call my property manager on the phone. Sometimes you'll just get more information from them. This way, a better feel when I called a different property manager that I currently have, you know, one thing that they mentioned to be on the phone, they were like, oh, Keith, I've been meaning to call you. You've had a vacant unit for weeks, and we should probably lower the asking rent 50 to $100 All right. Well, I agree that we should do that, but I feel like the vacancy would have lingered longer at the higher asking rent had I not called. So really, this is the sort of light touch that you should give your properties over time, and it's the reason that why, even with professional property management, it's not completely passive. Instead, it's a little contact. And I also like to tell my property manager that I have mortgages on my properties. I have every property mortgaged, and always have. You can choose to have your manager pay your mortgage for you, or you can pay it yourself, and that's a bit about vetting and managing your property manager. And I hope some of those ideas go a long way toward helping you, really, they're the frameworks about what's important and establishing expectations with them. Up front this week a great guest and I will discuss trends in today's real estate investment market, and then we'll tell you about an event that you can join and how to specifically exploit an especially promising real estate opportunity that I have never seen before. That's next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 420056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund to help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866.

Rick Sharga 14:46

this is Rick Sharga, a housing market intelligence analyst. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 15:11

This week, we've got the privilege of hearing from a seasoned real estate investor. He himself is in single family, multifamily and commercial. He's also a licensed optometrist, and he practices on a volunteer basis, giving away his time and expertise there. In fact, he started investing in real estate while working as an optometrist and captain for the US Air Force, and that on the side, real estate investing allowed him to retire early from medicine, and today, he's an industry expert in real estate market analytics and how to use real estate as a means to create the lifestyle that you, the listener, desire for your family. Hey, welcome to GRE Zach Lemaster.

Zack Lemaster 15:54

Thanks so much for having me on again. It's good to be back, and always a pleasure to you know, talk real estate, I learn a lot from you in the content you put out. So I'm a big fan, and I appreciate you having me on.

Keith Weinhold 16:06

Well, thanks for saying that will. I'm sure we're going to learn from you today too. You've got such a great take and feel for the pulse of the residential real estate market. Tell us about your take, whether that's price, direction, rents, occupancy rates, supply, interest rates, demographics, whatever you think is important, tell us about what a real estate investor really needs to know in this era, Zach.

Zack Lemaster 16:30

man, and this could probably be a whole day conversation, Keith, I think you've done an excellent job covering this every time you put out information, so we won't belabor the point. But I guess my general take is that, you know, we're moving into a section in the the market cycle, I believe, where we'll probably start to see a little bit more of a normalization of a real estate market. I mean, it's just been so strange, right, to pull data points over the past two years, and actually, really four or five years of like, there's really some unique things happening, and there's a lot of people that have projections around how housing prices are changing and things like that. The only really thing, I think the big takeaway from the past two years is that home sales have plundered it. People talk about real estate crashes, real estate prices really didn't change that so much. And actually in a lot of the markets, like where we focused on they went up because, you know, supply and demand. These are areas where there's a huge discrepancy and there's an undersupply of housing, and those are kind of the areas you want to be in the path of progress. But one thing that we did see over the past few years is that there's a plummet in home sales, and that's both with less buyers because of the interest rates and less sellers holding on to their low interest rates. People are less likely to move in those scenarios. So I think we're going to see more of that as we start to see interest rates coming down over time, and we'll probably see more inventory hit the market, but also a new influx of buyers. So I don't know if there's going to be much of a change in terms of pricing, but generally speaking, I think there's from the investor side. A lot of what we talk about is retail, but with the investor mindset, which is your audience, I think what we will likely see is that there's probably a lot of people that were sitting on the sidelines that will jump into the market. There's going to be more buyer competition, of course, that drives prices. And one thing we know for a fact that we'll dive in deeper today about Keith, is that there are builders, because a lot of what we do is in the new construction, build to rent industry. And we could talk about why that is, but that's just a solid asset class to maintain consistent income, quality, tenants, growth and potential in both home appreciation and rents. But I think what we're likely to see is that over the past year, there's been a lot of builders giving out these crazy incentives because they've had excess inventory and they've had a slowdown on the retail sales, and it's been a really unique opportunity for investors to come in acquire good assets at with these crazy incentives of below market pricing, which we'll talk about, that is likely going to disappear over time, as they move more into the retail sales, and those channels start to open up more because there's more buyers and so in the niche that we work in, that's kind of the takeaway that I think is developing, really over the next, you know, A few months here.

Keith Weinhold 19:00

yes, this reduction in sales volume that we've had like you touched on which lower interest rates could help thaw. Almost everyone agrees that interest rates are going to fall more slowly than they spiked in rows in 2022 and you know what's funny, Zach, I can be in the front of a room talking about the condition of the economy in the real estate market, and I can say to the audience act, I can say, if you think there's uncertainty right now, a substantial amount of uncertainty, raise your hand. Adversely. Everyone raises their hand. But you know what? They did the same thing two years ago, and they did the same thing five years ago. So my point is, yeah, investors invest through the uncertainty. Because uncertainty always exists. It just shifts around as to where the uncertainty is. The listener might be trying to validate sort of one thing in their mind and get it to balance out right now. Zach, when we talk about this lowering of sales volume, and you mentioned builders that are sitting on some inventory yet we have a lack. Of supply. Can you balance that out for us and tell us how that is that some builders have inventory that they're sitting on that's supply, and yet we have an overall lack of supply.

Zack Lemaster 20:10

yeah, and I think the other key piece into that is lack of affordability, right? And so all those things kind of play together, just to tie up your last point. There's always uncertainty in real estate, but there's also the fundamentals of real estate. Keith, you know, this is a long time investor, investing all across the country, as long as you stay focused on the fundamentals, which, at the end of the day, is really investing in good locations with good teams, where you have positive cash flow, right? And you likely have a positive outlook from an economic standpoint for that market, to keep the house rent in to keep rents going up. Like that's really all there is to this to be successful long term that can exist in any market cycle. So I just encourage people to stay focused on that. But ultimately, your question about inventory supply, we talked about big things of like lack of inventory. I mean, we have a deficit of I think the last stat I saw was seven and a half million houses, you know, deficit or something like that, but that's really on the global economic picture for the US, right when we break it down to the kind of the micro economic scale with each individual regional market, because we work with regional builders as well as national builders, and we're also builder. We also put up our own houses as well to a somewhat small scale, but a lot of those builders started the houses that are now completed, you know, at this point, sometimes six months ago, more likely 12 to 18 months ago. And they had anticipation as the Fed was talking about interest rates lowering, you know, they maybe were planning an X amount of sales for those exact houses. However, from the retail standpoint, there really hasn't been that movement. So we still have a lack of homes that we need, but we also have a lack of people that can buy those houses, because there's a lack of affordability, right? And all these builders also have X amount of houses that they sell to institutional buyers, the blackrocks and some of these buyers that will come in in and we'll talk about why that's relevant to us and how we've pioneered our way into operating like one of those for the individual investor and bringing those same buying incentives to the everyday investor. But there's also been a large decrease on investor activity from an institutional level buying. So just because we have a reduction in inventory and we have a low supply does not necessarily mean that we're just gonna, you know, builders can just sell all their homes because of that. There's a lot that plays into that, and you need to look at each geographic market. But ultimately, if you're looking at the fundamentals of investing in real estate, where you can still be, and we try to be below the meeting house price point, below that $400,000 price point, again, that's where we have the largest demographic big affordability issues right now. I think that's a safe place to be, right? Because you don't see the fluctuations that you do on the more expensive homes, the more expensive markets. I think you have the large, large demographics for both renters and retail buyers, and you also have more runway, right? More runway for prices to go up. So that's kind of our the niche area that we're when I'm talking about excess supply. That's the area that we're really focusing on.

Keith Weinhold 23:03

Oh, that was beautifully explained in how to tie that supply story together there. Zach, of course, there are so many ways to divide up the real estate market, one of those being that price tier. And typically for us as cash flow real estate investors, we look at a single family home. Yeah, it's going to be under 400k in order to generate income, I have an announcement to make here to you the listener on Thursday, October 24 one of our GRE investment coaches, along with Zach here, are co hosting GRE 's live event for new build turnkey income properties with zero money down. Yes, I'm stealing some of your thunder there. Zach, zero money down. Registration is now open at GREwebinars.com and the momentum has been building for this event that you can attend from the comfort of your own home. Tell us about what you'll be covering at our live event. Zach.

Zack Lemaster 23:58

yeah, and I'm very excited to do that. Keith, I appreciate you having me. Han, again, I think all the investors, if you're interested in new construction or just creative finance and some ways to make some unique deals happen, like you have to attend this webinar just to at least learn. First, we'll talk about different markets right now where we see the best opportunity. So if nothing else, you learn about some of the best markets to invest in. But really what we're going to unveil is how someone, regardless of where you live, geographically or your investing experience, how you can make a creative deal happen on a turnkey deal that you can get below market value and possibly buy with zero money down, or at least have a good portion of your down payment cover to really skyrocket your ROI. So this is a scenario, Keith, we really get to have your cake and eat it too, because you get a brand new constructed house. It's turnkey, where everything is done for you in a great market that has appreciation book on rents and prices. But you can also buy it with low to no money down and really be a creative investor. And I know that we're going to talk about all the details with that.

Keith Weinhold 24:58

Yes, let's talk more about. Out the potential for zero money down here. I mean, I think that's the most compelling value proposition with what we're doing next Thursday.

Zack Lemaster 25:08

sure. So we'll just go through a numeric example so people can kind of wrap their head around like what this entails. We already set the stage for you know why builders may have excess inventory. And what we do with our business is we partner with both regional and national builders, some of the largest national builders as well as as I mentioned, we build our own homes as well, but we partner with some of these national builders that have excess inventory in markets that we know are productive investment opportunities. A lot of these happen to be in the southeast, because that's where the population is growing, and we're seeing that's where favorable landlord legislation is and federal taxes and growth potential, all the things right, positive cash flow, but we focus on those areas. And we can go to these national builders, because as a group, you know, we buy hundreds of houses every single year, and we can basically approach them like an institutional buyer and say, we want the same access to those wholesale deals that you would sell to BlackRock, but we want that for ourselves, and we can pass that on to the individual investor. That's kind of the value add. But specifically, what we're talking about is a scenario where some of these builders will offer up to a 10% credit at closing. That is huge. And just to I mean, for someone that is just new, the real estate game is kind of learning about this is I've been investing personally for 15 years now, I've never seen things like this in any market cycle that's through multiple different market cycles, but I've never seen anything this attractive. So this is not normal. I want to say that's to start. But essentially, you can get up to 10% of a credit on a house that you can use however you want to. And so there's a few different ways that you can use this key. So if you're buying a $300,000 turnkey new construction home, you could, in theory, get $30,000 off and buy that at 270 of $30,000 of immediate equity. That might be a good strategy if you're looking to lower the mortgage payment on that or if you're looking to, say, refinance that property or sell it quicker, you have that immediate equity in that house, right? The other thing you could do with that 10% is you could use it to buy your interest rate down we have and that will get you below 4% you could literally buy your rates down into 3% with that much, if you want to put that much money into it, it'll cover your closing costs and buy the rate down significantly. So no matter what the Fed lowers, the rate to you are back actually down to one, 821, rates by buying your way there with that huge credit that obviously causes, you know, cash flow to skyrocket near ROI, to go way up. The third option that you can do is you can actually take that money, just get it back as a credit at closing. So if you're buying a house, say a $300,000 house, you're putting 20% down, which would be $60,000 on that house, you get $30,000 immediately back. That means you're into the house for 10% or half your down payment. That also skyrockets your ROI. So the point is, is there's a lot of creative things that you can do with these type of exciting credits, and they vary between five to 10% based on inventory, but they go up to 10% on some of these new construction inventory options. One last thing here, Keith, and this is hopefully I haven't lost anyone, but this is where things get really creative. As a company, we also work with different lenders throughout the country to bring the best financing options to investors. And we have a group of credit unions. They're all local to that geographic area that have Portfolio loans. Meaning these are not Fannie, Mae, Freddie Mac loans. These are loans they hold in house. These are true investor loans. You still have to qualify for them, but if you qualify, you can put as little as 5% down, meaning the they will finance up to 95% of your property. We have tons of investors doing this consistently, and you can do this on up to five properties, five investment properties, if you qualify. And so that means, in theory, you could buy a brand new construction house with a 5% down loan. You get a 10% credit back at closing that covers your down payment, your closing costs, and likely puts money back in your pocket. So that's not only buying a new construction, turnkey house with no money down it's actually getting paid to do so now there's a lot of economics to understand and cash flow, you know, with a high leverage and things like that, but that's a concept, and it's very exciting.

Keith Weinhold 29:09

Yes, that last option that you mentioned seems to be the most compelling. I know. You've got investors that are learning about this and have already taken advantage of that, and again, that last option is getting the 10% credit that you're getting from the builder, coupling that with a 5% down portfolio loan from a local lender, which effectively would give you 5% cash back at the closing table. However, your closing cost of prepaids might be something like 4% so really, in a best case scenario, not only are you zero money down, you're getting about 1% of the purchase price, or $3,000 in this example back at the closing table. Now, of course that's going to affect your cash flow, but you got to think about what's important to you. So when one thinks about what's important to them, as an investor, with some of those options that you laid out there, Zach, I really highlighted the last one. What are some of the trade offs, the pros and cons of choosing these different incentives that the builders are getting right now?

Zack Lemaster 30:05

I'm so glad you asked this, Keith, because someone could be very excited about the idea of no money down, but that may not actually be the most strategic benefit to them. The nice thing is that there's so much incentive to buy right now with these type of, you know, kickbacks, these these incentives that, like you can structure a deal that's specific to you in your goals. But I would really encourage the audience to understand what is your exit strategy, or what is the next three to five years? Why are you buying this property, and how to strategically apply that? And if you don't know, if you need some guidance through that, let us help you kind of understand the different scenarios, but I want to work backwards first and mention one more thing, the no money down option would be really attractive because cash flow is going to be limited. In that scenario, you still have a loan that's covering 95% of the house, right? You would expect it, and you don't have to only put 5% down, right? You can put six, 7% down. So it's, you know, maybe break even cash flow. It's up to you. But the investors that really like that option, including myself, is the people that want to grow and scale their portfolio and stretch their capital the furthest. They maybe don't care so much about cash flow right now at this moment, they know that cash flow will increase over time. But if you're someone who really takes advantage of the tax benefits of real estate, this is way to, like, honestly, without any money out of your pocket, just taking some action, you can create this huge tax benefit, right? Because if you're buying five properties with virtually no money down, and let's say those are each $200,000 properties, you could essentially buy a million dollars worth of real estate that you own and control 100% of and you get the huge, immense tax benefit. So if you're doing things like Cost Segregation studies, like we do, you can create hundreds of 1000s of dollars of tax deductions without any money out of your pocket, just being strategic this way. But let's talk about some of these other options, because that was a real question. Where would it make sense for people? So again, if you say that 10% on a $300,000 house, that's 30k if you wanted to take that as a price reduction right out of the gates, that would obviously lower your mortgage, that's going to lower the mortgage payment amount to allow you to cash flow more. But I think the real the strategy, or the play there, is that you have built in equity in a house. This means that if your plan is to maybe put a HELOC on the house, do a cash out refinance in a few short years, as that House continues to appreciate again, because it's in a growth market, you're just going to cut that time in half because you have built in equity or if you plan to sell it. I mean, there are some scenarios where you could turn around and almost like, flip this in theory. You could do it. If you really run the economics, they want to be hugely profitable. But theory could be profitable if you sold the house with, you know, even immediately, because these builders are still selling these houses at retail, setting comps at full market value. So if you have 10% and you're paying a realtor 5% commission, they're still closing costs. But you could, you know, net some capital, but better scenarios, probably, if you're holding it for two or three years again, letting it continue to appreciate, your option is to sell it, then you're into capital gains, or again, 1031 exchange it. You know that might be good option to have built in equity. Or if this is going to be a long term hold for you, and you're just like, I love this area where I'm investing, I want to maximize cash flow. I want to have a long term loan that has a really low interest rate, then actually applying the majority of that capital to buy your rate down. That's going to obviously maximize cash flow, and that's also going to lock you in on a 30 year fixed loan at a really low rate, maybe you want to buy the rate down. So that's really the two options. We see most investors either taking the capital back and using the zero money down option, or buying the rate down, because that's going to allow them to really cash flow well, and they're just going to hold that property for a long period of time and let real estate do what it does. Those are kind of the different scenarios. I think that makes sense for different investors and understanding where to apply this incentive. Sure, if you go for a high loan, to value loan at 95% or even 100% you really then pursue the infinite return strategy, have maximum leverage, or complete leverage in the property, have all the inflation profiting benefits magnified because you're borrowing more, but that scenario is going to reduce your cash flow. So it's all about what's important to you as a real estate investor, was that before you go, just tell us a little bit more. I think the listener is going to learn more on next Thursday's webinar, but just give us a bit more on property types, whatever else one might want to know. certainly. So this is mainly in the southeast, okay, so these would be markets like Texas, Alabama, Carolinas, Florida. We have some stuff in Tennessee, but, I mean, this is really the growth markets right where we have landlord friendly legislation, low taxes, we have affordability, but we have huge population trends moving to these areas. Those are the areas we want to be. Those are the areas where builders are building in because supply and demand. Those are areas where we're positioned for strong growth over time. Overall, our average rental increase is 6% year per year, and that's going back on data over the past decade. He's really good then, yeah, usually double national average there. So those are because we're specifically positioning ourselves in areas where. Where there's increase in rental demand and in population and economic growth, average home prices. I mean, we have new construction homes as low as 200,000 by the way. Side caveat, we also have some rehab homes that are in that 131 50 range that you can still use the low money down. Those don't have as high up incentives as the new construction do. But average price for new construction, two to 300,000 give or take. I mean, just buying them, if we're buying them with a conventional loan, with 20% down, you know, you're still looking at eight to 12% cash on cash returns. Let's just talk about the cash flow. So they're really good properties that cash flow well, which is hard to find today, and they're in good locations. I think that's really the main point I want to drive home as we finish up here is, these are single family residencies in good locations. You guys, I've invested, as you mentioned, in the nice century gave me, I mean, real estate allowed my wife and I to retire from our career paths as optometrist through investing. That did not happen overnight, but it did happen over a period of time, and it did take a lifetime, either, though, that's the thing I want to mention, over a short few years of intentional, dedicated investing, we learned that really focusing on growth markets and new construction houses allow for the best quality tenants, the most predictable returns and the best growth and rents and appreciation of the houses over time. To build equity, those are the kind of assets that we want to hold long term and will help you build wealth in a short period of time. So that's kind of been the direction of our business model. Is focusing on quality inventory in good locations with good teams that still have cash, good cash flow. But you mix in some of these incentives, Keith, and it's just like, it's a no brainer. And I do think this is the biggest thing, is sense of urgency here. This is unlimited inventory. This is not something that's normal, as I mentioned, and this buying opportunity that we're so excited about is not going to last forever, as we started this conversation, talking about the market shifting as interest rates continue to come down over time, that will continue to bring more buyers into the market and just less motivation from builders to offer these incentives. So guys, now is the time to take action and make really good investments now that will set you up for success for many years.

Keith Weinhold 37:03

The time is now. This is one of the best deals I've really learned about here in the recent past at all this could be of any benefit to it all. You really want to jump in on this, because, like Zach said, this won't last forever. Well, Zach, before I ask you for your closing thoughts again, for you to listen or be sure to sign up for GRE 's live event. This is for new build, turnkey income properties, potentially with zero money down. It is Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern. Register at GREwebinars.com any last thoughts? Zach

Zack Lemaster 37:03

Keith, I just appreciate all the information you're putting out there, we are all thrilled about real estate as an asset class. It's been an interesting past few years. But again, just going back to the fundamentals, guys invest in good properties and good locations with good teams. And I promise you, if you do that consistently over time, you will reach financial independence or whatever financial goals you are striving to achieve. There's more millionaires or main real estate than the other asset class, and it's the most predictable Path to Wealth. There's no secret about that, but it does take consistency in any market cycle. So Keith, thanks so much again for having me on.

Keith Weinhold 38:12

Oh, those are great parting words, and you the listener, are going to get to talk more with Zach and one of our investment coaches. Next Thursday, it is live at the end, you will have a chance to have your questions answered in real time, in case you want to talk to Zach more. Hey, it's been great having you here. There's something in the market cycle there that we can really take advantage of. Builders have some excess inventory and see the money that they have tied up in them is something that they're paying a fairly high interest rate on to. And we have now partnered with some of the biggest builders, Lennar DR Horton and others, to get you this institutional grade buying power buying at scale for lower prices and better incentives, like Zach and I said, new builds in the southeastern US for purchase prices of 200 to 300k offering you up to a 10% credit at closing. So in a 300k rental single family home, you can then use as much as 30k and choose what you want to do with that. You could buy your interest rate down to 3% that's probably better if you're going to hold it long term or use on your closing costs and have some to use toward your interest rate. Or alternatively, you could just take it as a price reduction. A 300k property is now 270k maybe you can even enjoy the discount and sell it in the next, say, two to three years for a profit. You're likely not going to be immensely profitable that way, but you don't know what the market will do over time. All right, so it'll typically be a five to 10% credit, and that depends on the property that you seek here. All right, so that is the builder credit bucket there. And then, in addition to that, if you qualify, you have some good, say, credit and assets where you can get a financing option through local credit unions, and that is local to the area that your property is in that will extend you a portfolio loan. If you qualify, you'll learn about how to do this. And this means you could put as little as 5% down, and you can do that on up to five investment properties. Okay, so with those buckets, or those two incentives combined, you could then get a 5% down loan with a 10% builder credit so that 5% bank could cover your closing costs and even just put a little money in your pocket. You should sort of think of all of that as a best case scenario. You might be pretty excited about no money down, and you probably should, but, you know, attend the event and weigh the pros and cons and see if that is the right avenue for you. A lot of it comes down to what do you want to optimize your cash flow or your leveraged equity? This is an action taking time for you to get a good chance at being set up for financial success for years. I mean, it is opportunities just like this. I mean, you learn about these concepts on the benefits of real estate investing here on the show. And now here's something really tangible where you can get ahead. I mean, personally, for me as an investor, I've never had an opportunity like what we're talking about here. Before. If you so desire, you can own new build property and learn how to get it tied up at the event. Make sure to sign up and put it on your calendar. That is next Thursday, the 24th from the comfort of your own home, GRE 's live online event for new build properties in growth markets, potentially with zero money down. It is free to register, and as of now, there are spots available at GREwebinars.com Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

42:10

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:38

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com.
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522: A Wealth Mindset in Real Estate Investing with Garrett Gunderson
7 okt· Get Rich Education
Firebrand speaker and author of “Killing Sacred Cows”, Garrett Gunderson, joins us to discuss wealth mindset and value creation. Also, Keith touches on the impact of falling interest rates on various loans and the economy noting that lower rates can benefit savers and investors.

Historical data shows that home prices have only fallen 6 times in the last 83 years, signaling the rarity of significant price declines.

Learn about the Rockefeller method, which involves using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow wealth.

Garrett advocates for investing in real estate, businesses, and intellectual property rather than mutual funds or ETFs.

DM Garrett on Instagram to receive a free copy of his book on the Rockefeller method.

Resources:

GarrettGunderson.com or

Alon Instagram @garrettbgunderson

Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/522

For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

GREmarketplace.com

Get mortgage loans for investment property:

RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

or e-mail: [email protected]

Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866

For advertising inquiries, visit:

GetRichEducation.com/ad

Will you please leave a review for the show? I’d be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”

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GREmarketplace.com/Coach

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, talking about what falling interest rates really mean to you. 10 years of the GRE podcast, politics are overrated. How often do home prices fall? The latest in AI generated podcasting and then wealth mindset and wealth preservation all today on get rich education.

00:27

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:28

Welcome to GRE from Evansville, Indiana to Victorville, California and across 488 nations worldwide for an entire decade of your life now, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, what does it mean that we're in an era of falling interest rates from the recent peaks, rates of all types have fallen. Mortgage rates have fallen. The Fed funds rate has fallen, and that prime rate has fallen too. I mean the prime rate that you pay, that's basically the Fed funds rate plus 3% and why the prime rate matters to you is that can affect credit cards, home equity loans, automobile loans and small business loans, every one of them down, down, down. So to any savvy investor that knows what's going on in the 21st century? This can mean celebration for your wallet, for your finances. And look in old days, lower rates, that would be bad news, not good news. And why is this? Well, in olden days, and some people still have an outdated mindset, lower rates are bad because savings accounts used to make sense back in the day, and lower interest rates means lower rates for savers on their bank, savings accounts. Yeah, those 5% online only savings accounts are going to four and a half with the Fed's half point rate cut last month. Well, 100 years ago, you could be a saver. That made some sense, because their interest rates could reliably beat inflation over time, but not today. Today, since inflation transfers wealth from lenders to borrowers and inflation redistributes wealth from savers to debtors. For those like us that understand this and act accordingly, we are indeed the beneficiaries of lower interest rates. Now, there are other effects out there in the economy. Cheaper loans could lead to more m&a activity, more mergers and acquisitions that can benefit investment banks like your Goldman Sachs that facilitates those transactions. Well, what happens to real estate prices amidst lower interest rates? What happens is that they tend to rise now here on the show, you remember that since 2022 I have discussed what has surprised a lot of people. Amidst rising interest rates, the environment that we used to have, home prices tend to rise. And it has happened again. When mortgage rates tripled, prices kept right on rising. So you might wonder, well, wait a second, which is it or I'm confused, amidst rising interest rates, home prices rise and amidst falling interest rates, home prices rise too. And the answer is yes, look at history over hunches. To our newsletter readers, I recently sent you that great chart, a table, I guess it showed the national home price, rate of appreciation or depreciation for every single year, going back to World War Two and from 1942 until today, those 83 years, how many times do you think that home prices fell over the last 83 years? There were exactly six, six of the last 83 years, only six where home prices fell. Paradoxically, interest rates don't have much to do with home prices, and this is all per Case Shiller statistics. Over the last 83 years, there were only six down years. 72 were up. Five were even. And of those six down years in the last 83 five of the six down years were tied up in a once. I mean, it took a once in several generations confluence, a cataclysm of events to occur during the global financial crisis, 2007 to 2011 all at once. Back then, it was a housing supply, surplus, disgustingly lawless mortgage market, cheap credit and a preponderance of debt in the banking system since World War 2, 83 years ago, there was only one other year when home prices fell, that was 1990 when they fell by 1%. If you're waiting for Home prices to fall substantially, it is super unlikely that that is going to happen. Just look at history, and today's market has more than the housing shortage in loads of protective homeowner equity, which means low delinquency rates, and we have permanently inflated higher prices baked into replacement costs of all kinds, land, architecture, engineering, permitting, regulation, labor, building, equipment, construction materials all over the place, but us, you know, as real estate investors, we might be more interested in rent appreciation than prices just four years ago, you know, just then to pay $2,000 to rent a single family home. I mean, that was quite a nice place in the Midwest and South. And today I have modest single family rentals built 50 years ago that are about 1200 square feet, and now they rent for $2,000 $2,000 a month's rent that is common today, and we are rooting for rents to appreciate faster than home prices. And if you want to get our newsletter, you're probably on that list by now, and reading it, I just send some of the best charts in real estate maps to you. You can sign up free right now. Just do it while it's on your mind. Text GRE to 66866, that's text GRE to 66866, for our Don't quit your Daydream Letter. Political season is heating up. We are at a time where we are one month from a general election, and that means we're electing a new president, vice president, 1/3 of the Senate, the entire house of representatives and various state and local officials. Yes, politics matter. Politics affect real estate. So why don't I discuss this more here on the show. Well, I explained that to you a while ago. It gets divisive, and it rarely affects people as much as they think. And as you know, I avoid even using words like Democrat, Republican, left, right, conservative and liberal. And why do I do that? Because they are divisive terms. The problem isn't so much politics. It's when people get infected with the partisan mind virus. Yes, they put party over country. For example, a partisan political instigator will swear to god that the economy is great now, but as soon as, say, a different party wins an election, even if the economy is the same, although now say that that same economy is awful. In fact, a couple years ago, I quit my job as a writer for a publication that you've heard of before. I no longer contribute to them. They put party before country, in my opinion, I wrote an article for them about two years ago, and my article made it sound like an eminent recession was a question, not a foregone conclusion. Well, the editor let me know that their consensus of writers feels like a recession is eminent and that I need to change my article to reflect that that's because they don't like the administration that's in power, so I quit rather than edit my article. I mean, if you just ask an American the question, this question, do you wish that America were less divided? Well. Any sane person would answer that question, yes. Well, then why would you go attach divisive labels to the other side and attack them? It makes no sense. That's where the division comes from. So really, it ought to be about solutions and ideologies and not political parties. So this is another reason why, during political season, I don't play those games, and we stick to investing the economy and wealth mindset. I mean, virtually no other country in the world drags out their presidential election cycle this long. I mean, it's like a year and a half. Remember all those debates last year and names like Nikki Haley and Vivek Ramaswamy that were in the news all the time. I mean, other countries get this entire process over with in six weeks. Let's take a page from them, and that way we can have more constructive things in our news cycle. Well, I am coming to you from the makeshift mobile GRE studio today, like I do some weeks, because this morning, I woke up in reading Pennsylvania. Reading is, in fact, my birthplace, and besides being the pretzel capital of the United States, one way that you know about reading is from the Reading Railroad property in the board game Monopoly. Yeah, it's one of the properties that you can buy and, I guess, collect rent on. And, you know, here we are a real estate show. So maybe it's appropriate that the namesake of my birthplace is immortalized as a property on America's best known real estate game. And it also might be appropriate that I'm back here because the 10th anniversary of the launch of this show is nigh this coming Thursday, on October 10, 1010, it will be 10 years since episode one of this show. And yes, the math, I suppose, checks out, because there are about 52 weeks in a year, and you are listening to episode 522, right now. Well, listen to this. This could blow your mind. Have you heard an AI generated podcast? And I don't just mean sort of where a robot reads a blog in monotone and then you listen to that audio file that's embedded in the article. No, that's not what I'm talking about. Here's what I mean. A few weeks ago, I learned that macroeconomist Richard Duncan, who was the first ever guest on this show back in 2014 Gosh, all these tie ins to GRE 's origins today? Well, Richard published some PDF charts, and he uploaded them to notebooklm.google.com, that's how you find this. And he clicked generate audio overview, and within three minutes, it had created a podcast with two virtual people having this pretty intelligent, engaging and even humorous conversation about his presentation on interest rates. I mean, wow, just listen to the first minute or minute and a half of this AI generated podcast here. And again, this is from about a month ago. So they're talking about the upcoming Fed rate cut that did indeed happen.

13:23

All right, ready to dive in. Today, we're tackling the big question everyone wants to know, will the Fed actually cut rates on September 18? It's the question on everyone's mind, for sure, and more importantly, for our listeners, what's it going to mean for them to help us unpack this whole thing. We're looking at this report. It's by economist Richard Duncan, called why the Fed will cut September 12, 2024. Duncan always brings unique perspective. He cuts right to the chase, which I appreciate. right! So let's jump right in. Duncan starts by talking about inflation, which, let's face it, we've all been feeling the heat from this past year. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. Inflation hit a pretty brutal 9% last year. I think my grocery bills are still recovering. Oh yeah, tell me about it. But the latest number shows down to 2.5% that's both by the CPI and importantly, the PCE Price Index, right? And that PCE is the one the Fed really keeps their eye on, exactly, which is why I wanted to ask you about that. Why is the PCE like the golden child for the Fed, why not just stick with the CPI? Everyone knows that one. well, It's all about getting the most accurate picture of inflation. Think of it like this. The CPI is like taking a quick glance at prices. You know, just a snapshot in time. Okay with you, but the PCE, that's more like a movie. It captures how our spending habits change as prices change, and that gives the fed a better look at those underlying trends driving inflation. So it's like the CPI with a little bit of a crystal ball. It's trying to anticipate what's going to happen. It's got it okay? So inflation seems to be cooling down, which is good news, right?

Keith Weinhold 14:56

Gosh, that's just really good, a totally realistic sounding AI generated podcast just from some PDF files. The macro economist Richard Duncan uploaded remarkable and you know that the quality of that is only going to get better. That's probably about as bad as it's ever going to be right there. And in fact, in another 10 years, listeners could find it rather cute or quaint that we find this remarkable today. A big thanks to Richard Duncan for allowing us to play that and also expect Richard to be back here with us on the show again before the year ends, and here on the 10th anniversary week of the GRE podcast, you know, it makes me wonder how expendable my job as podcast host is going to be. I hope that I'm here with you in another 10 years, and I completely plan to be. Well episode number one of the get rich education podcast back from 2014 is called your abundance mindset. So it's apropos to visit a mindset topic today I'm going to do that with firebrand Speaker This week's guest, Garrett Gunderson. Here shortly, do you want to live a life that is small and safe and sheltered? I doubt that you really do, but you know, safe decision after safe decision, that's what most people end up doing. Do you want your kids to live a small, safe, sheltered life? I mean, most parents want safety for their children, but they're going to have an outsized impact on others when they study and then take the right risks. We're discussing those types of wealth creation mindsets with Garrett. He's a really talented guy. He was last with us six years ago. He's done some stand up comedy. Many have remarked that Garrett looks like Jesus Christ. He's the author of some popular books, including killing sacred cows. Let's talk to Garrett. This week's guest is a pretty well known author and speaker. He helps you make, keep and grow your money to help you live your best life. He's an especially dynamic speaker, public speaker, and I'm confident that you'll be able to hear that on the show today, because he has a great knowledge base, and he speaks with this conviction on topics that make him so compelling. Hey, it's been a few years. Welcome back to GRE Garrett Gunderson.

Garrett Gunderson 17:38

good to be back. I thought that was a very honest, like, pretty well known, like, I'm not really well known pretty well. That's just enough to annoy my wife. Like, I'll be going through an airport and someone come over and talk to me, and she's like, ah, but I love it, dude. I love conversations with people that I don't know, and I just get to meet because if they engage in my work, it gives us a chance to connect. And sometimes it makes me look cool to my kids, which is always a good thing. You know what I'm saying, like my son will be with me and someone say, hey, love killing sacred cows, or, Hey, are you that guy on YouTube? I'm like, it could be me, or you might be thinking, I'm Jesus. You know what I'm saying. I look familiar, though.

Keith Weinhold 18:14

Yeah. Now you can tell your kids that I said you are pretty well known. And you know, Garrett, you're also a really keen and perceptive person. You can tell if somebody's poor within 60 seconds of what they say. Tell us about that.

Garrett Gunderson 18:31

Oh, man, that video has so much hate. Man. I put that out like it was my son's filming, and I'm just sitting in our kitchen, and I was just thinking about a conversation I had earlier that day, and in the conversation, it was like, more about complaining about the world, saying that they couldn't afford things, saying they didn't have the time, blaming everyone for their situation. And I was like, man, it's pretty easy to tell. And 60 seconds, I mean, I guess maybe is a rash statement, because maybe it takes three minutes or 300 seconds, like five minutes, and get deep enough, but you just find that there's a certain language to poverty, and whether that's just poor in spirit, whether it's poor in mind, or whether it's poor in the bank account, typically it's devoid of personal responsibility. It's leading the levels of inspiration. And this isn't to say that if you're wealthy, that you only speak inspiring conversations. I mean, I complain sometimes that happens. I get frustrated. I get disappointed in myself for not being nicer to a customer service person and like, have to really manage that sometimes. But ultimately, it's this language that is almost like a Marxist type of language, you know, that comes from a place of like, I want this. I'm owed that we deserve this. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, like, who's going to produce that? And so it's something that's a fairly easy thing to detect with just a few questions. Like, if I'm given one question, I can tell in 60 seconds for sure.

Keith Weinhold 19:57

Yeah. I think a lot of times people start complaining. About something. People find money a scarce resource when they start, you know, complaining about gas prices or something like that, I think that's just really a classic one. It tells me where they're coming from. I mean, it tells me what their mind is occupying.

Garrett Gunderson 20:12

Right. And if we're not excited about our future, if we're not developing our skill sets, if we're not really engaged in the world of value creation, it's easy to get frustrated about tax it's easier to get frustrated about inflation. It's easier to get complaining about interest rates or loan rates and all those kind of things. But what I find is the best way to outpace inflation is through skill set, and if we truly invest in ourselves and invest in other people so that we increase our quality of life and our enjoyment of it along the way, we increase all the skill sets that matter. You've mentioned that I'm a decent public speaker and that I'm articulate. That comes from going through writing courses and hiring speaking coaches and just getting the reps and doing comedy and the things that will help me to become a more effective communicator. And then it's really about becoming a better cash flow investor. I know that you teach people a lot around, you know, real estate and investing, and that's one of the big three assets in my mind, that helps people generate and create cash flow. But most people are trapped in this indoctrination where they set money aside and forget it. They wait for 30 years and hope for the best. They're very one dimensional of just paying off a loan and then hoping the retirement plan is going to get them there. And that's why they end up in this mindset where they're like, oh, I don't feel in control, because the outcome of my income is something that's dictated by the economy and not my own willpower, not my own skill set, not my own value creation. And I think that's why retirement is such a bad and faulty notion. My main statement in life is create the life you don't want to retire from. Now, I get it. In the industrial age, people need to retire because they were being worked to death and they weren't living for very long. It was an immensely valuable concept back then, a blue to collar world back then? Yeah, right. But in today's world, what if people just invested more time in selecting your career that mattered or had enough faith and took a leap on themselves to start becoming a better investor or start a business or be an entrepreneur where they get upside potential, instead of just begging for safety and security, instead of just wanting the entitlement of benefits, instead of just trading time for money, like that's an industrial age concept that we watched, whether it's our parents or grandparents, go through trading time for money, but we're in a world where that's not required any longer, because we do have technology, we do have artificial intelligence, we do have these things that are starting to displace The jobs that no one really wants to do because it beats down the body, and there's a lot of opportunity for those that are willing to grasp it and go for it, but it comes down to one key thing, value creation. And if we're going to be devoid of value creation, it's easy to tell in 60 seconds whether someone's poor because value creation was not part of their concept or their purview.

Keith Weinhold 22:40

And value creation is about expanding that upside. And a lot of poverty mindsets just complain about the downside their expenses. And you can't really do that much about your expenses. You can only lower them so much. Anytime you do, you're probably diminishing your quality of life anyway. And really, I think a lot of this mindset of lack Garrett comes back to the fact that, simply, most believe that money itself is a scarce resource. I probably believe that at one time, when I was younger, maybe you did too. And as I like to say, although I wasn't the first person that said it, the only place that you get money is from other people. So most people, which tend to be employees, think their way to increase their income is only if their employer gives them a raise, or maybe if they find a new employer that pays them maybe 10% more, or something like that. So they're limiting their upside over there because they think money's a scarce resource, because it's got to come from an employer. Somehow they're not thinking about, why don't you really expand your upside and start an Amazon business, or rent cars through Turo or Airbnb rentals, or what we do here at get risk education, help people with long term housing rentals. So it just kind of comes back to the fact that, you know, people's mind is closed off, and they just simply want to believe that money is a scarce resource.

Garrett Gunderson 23:57

They're adding to computer screens as we talk about this, you know, I mean, there's never been more money in the world than there is today. It's the most money there's ever been. We keep adding it. There's, you know, so much of it out there. But even if they stopped printing it, or they stopped adding it to balance sheets, there's an infinite number of times they can exchange hands. So if we use it to buy computers and clothes or food and shelter or entertainment like comedy and concerts, the more times money exchanges hands, the more values created. It's exchange that facilitates and creates wealth in the way that we create exchanges, serving others, solving problems and adding value. And here's the deal, we can have two parties do exchange with one another and both end up wealthier. It doesn't need to be a win, lose transaction. As a matter of fact, when people transact, they agree that what they bought was worth more than their money, or if they sold it, they agree that the money was more than what they sold. Otherwise they would have kept it. We don't do equal exchange. I wouldn't give you $1 for $1 right? There's no reason to exchange. It's unequal, which means, if you can provide something more efficiently than. I can for myself. I can pay you, which frees up my time to do what I most efficiently and effectively can do. I did triathlons because I was an idiot back in the day. Sorry for those triathletes, which is like a lot of work, man. And I don't love swimming, but I remember going to buy a triathlon bike. I just bought, like, a road bike. It was a big upgrade from having a huffy from Walmart, you know, like, oh, this $4,700 this is a while back, but it was carbon fiber. It was, like, amazing. And I thought, you know, I could never build this. So this $4,700 is actually really cheap, because I'm giving him $4,700 to build something that I can then go build something like write a book or do some consulting or do a speech that can inspire someone. And so that exchange was valuable. It's like if you bought killing cigarette cows. For me, you're saying that it was worth more than $20 I'm saying it was worth less because I already have the knowledge in my head, and so we both can end up wealthier. Unequal exchange is what facilitates wealth. What it lets us do is tap into our best abilities and tap into other people's best abilities. And that exchange ends up growing over time, and the more times money circulates because of Good Services and experiences, the more output there is. So look at today. Hundreds of years ago, if you wanted to listen to music, you had to hire a quartet. Now it's free for almost anyone, if you have any device of any sort, if you're willing to listen to a commercial here or there, you can listen to anything that you want. For the most part, you don't even have to pay for it. So think about that advancement. If you want to be anywhere in the world, you could be there in almost 24 hours or less, back in the day, that would have taken, you know, years for that matter. I mean, we have so much more wealth because we keep building upon previous wealth, previous ideas, and those blueprints we continue to grow from with new innovation and ingenuity. Therefore, the quality of life for someone that's middle class today is infinitely more than the middle class of hundreds of years ago, the amount of people that are hungry today versus years ago, even though we have more than 8 billion people on the planet, has gone down as a percentage, not up as a percentage. That's because of velocity and exchange. It's because of this notion that money's not scarce and resources have the way to be replenished, as long as we're stewards. Now, if the bison, if we kill too many of them, then they can't replenish, right? But if we manage that properly, you could actually eat the bison, use the skins, do all that kind of stuff, and still have that exist in the future. These people that don't believe in that believe that there's like a finite pie, that if one thing's gone, it's gone forever, not understanding value exchange, reproduction, apparently, and basic science either. And again, we can overdo those things and damage an ecosystem. So there is a balance.

Keith Weinhold 27:36

Yeah, that's right, when you talk about value creation, then you're really not talking about a person going out and trying to get their piece of the pie. Really more accurately what you're talking about. Here are ideas for expanding the entire pie.

Garrett Gunderson 27:51

Spam the pie. Expand your means you can budget and reduce. You said it eloquently. You said, Hey, there's only so much you can do in reduction of expenses before it just starts infringing and taking away from things that you value in life. There's a finite game there, but the expansion gain through co creation, through collaboration, instead of through competition, is absolutely an infinite pie that continues to grow as we add more value, as we serve more people, as we solve bigger problems, as we more deeply impact the people that we impact as we reach more people, these are things that can lead to more dollars. So I have this thing called the value equation. It's our mental capital, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, insights, strategies and tools multiplied by our relationship capital, people, networks, organizations, communities, friends, family, mentors, equals our financial capital. So financial capital is a byproduct of our stewardship of our mental and relationship capital. And the bridge between mental relationship capital is what we call business, or we call investing. So ultimately, Money Follows value. How do we add more value? Have a better idea. Impact more people. More more deeply. Impact the people you currently serve. Collaborate and offer more like it's an infinite pie and an infinite game. If we play it that way. We're talking with speaker and author Garrett Gunderson, about the mindset of wealth creation. More. We come back with Garrett. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold 29:01

hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they've provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings if your money isn't making 4% Percent, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work. With minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family 266, 866,

Hal Elrod 30:54

this is Hal Elrod author of The Miracle Morning and listen to get it rich. Education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:10

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with firebrand speaker and author Garrett Gunderson. You can learn more about him at Garrettgunderson.com. Garrett before the break, we were talking about the mindset in opening up one in order to create more wealth over time. Here, a lot of times, one way we talk about that is, don't just get your money to work for you. Get other people's money to work for you. You could actually use other people's money ethically three ways at the same time, in real estate, using the tenant's money for the income stream the government's money for generous tax incentives, and then the bank's money for the leverage, which is actually a greater wealth building force than compound interest. That's one example of how we do that here. But when one has become successful, oftentimes they want to make sure that that's lasting. They want to build a legacy, something that they can carry on. And I know you articulate that through the Rockefeller method. So do you want to tell us more about that?

Garrett Gunderson 32:05

I wrote this book. What would the Rockefellers do back in 2016 this study between really wealthy families versus their wealth lasted, versus wealthy families that decimated it, and the best study was really the Vanderbilt because they had more money than the US Treasury. One the railroad family, yeah, transportation. And you know what? They destroyed that Cornelius died, and then his eldest son doubled the estate nine years and then he died, and that was the last time their estate grew. It started to decrease after that. And 54 years later, the first Vanderbilt died broke, and so the last Vanderbilt family union didn't have any millionaires at it. I know everybody knows about like Vanderbilt University. They donated like, a million dollars to get that started. But, you know, that was pretty inconsequential compared to their overall net worth. But they didn't have a formula or format to create sustainable wealth. They own 10 mansions in in Manhattan. They don't own those anymore. They own the breakers in Rhode Island. The state of Rhode Island owns that now. So they lost this massive amount of wealth where the Rockefellers are just entering their seventh generation of passing on, well, seven generations, wow. And people that worked for the rock bellers, like the executives, they're still passing on, well, for this generation after generation. And most people don't make it past the third generation. And we could look at, you know, people like Walt Disney. We could look at people like JCPenney. We could look at people, you know, like the the Kennedy family and so many others that have used these two things to really create sustainable wealth. Number one is they use trust. The Rockefellers coined the term own nothing and control everything, whether that's a revocable living trust for people who are just starting out and don't have a substantial amount of wealth, or a domestic asset protection trust for those that have a decent amount of wealth, those are the two main popular ones. There are some offshore trusts. It gets onerous and complicated once you go offshore, but it does protect your assets. The second piece is using whole life insurance, so they have this death benefit that's on the insured, and they put that on their heirs, so that every time an heir dies, it replenishes the trust, and potentially even grows it, because there's these threats to the family wealth, there's taxes, there's inflation, there's interest rate fluctuations or market, you know, economic turmoil. So what they're doing is they're creating that level of stability, and they give them preferred interest rates to borrow from the trust versus a bank. So now your family can actually earn interest instead of paying interest. And yes, if your family is paying interest, they're paying it back to their future generation at Preferred rates. And so you could be one generation away from never needing a bank again and actually being able to capitalize on deals a whole lot faster. Specifically, we use whole life, because it transfers the risk to the insurance company. There's six or seven companies that are participating, mutual companies that have been around for over 150 years, always paid dividends. It protects your cash value from taxes. It protects it from liability and bankruptcy in over 40 states, fully and partially in every state. So what happens is, for an asset allocation decision. You can start moving some of your fixed income portfolio to this and have a better, more robust benefits type of situation, and then actually start to implement this Rockefeller method so that you can create generational wealth.

Keith Weinhold 35:12

All right, so the Rockefeller method using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow your wealth, so as one's building their portfolio, amassing wealth, increasing income streams as they go along in their investor journey. Is there anything that they should keep in mind as they try to integrate some of these things from the Rockefellers?

Garrett Gunderson 35:12

Yeah, a lot of other insurance people try to sell these index universal life policies, but those won't work because they have too many levers of risk, and especially when you're building cash value, you might use that cash value to buy real estate. Then you might use the rental income to put the money back into the policy so you can buy more real estate in the future. So it becomes like a medium storage shed or unit for your cash that's protected, but now it comes with the death benefit, which, here's one example, for a real estate investor, instead of just, you know, rolling it over to the next property and rolling it over to the next property when you eventually sell, you can use a charitable trust. And a charitable trust, you can donate that highly appreciated piece of real estate, get a partial tax deduction, sell it and fund the trust and pay zero tax on your gains. No matter what your basis is, there's no tax on the gains. You're the first beneficiary of the trust, meaning you can take an income between 5% and 50% from the trust while you're alive, depending on the underlying assets, and then when you die, the charity keeps whatever's left over. But if you have a life insurance policy that will replenish what that donation was, therefore giving you 20 30% or more increased cash flow with an asset by making a synergistic allocation. Now, that's a lot of information in a short period of time, but it's more about planting seeds. And don't worry, I'll give everybody a copy of the book at no charge, so they can kind of read it at their own pace, or you can listen to it at their own pace, versus me condensing it into just a couple minutes.

Keith Weinhold 36:56

Oh, thanks. All right, well, we'll learn more about that resource at the end that sounds like that can be really helpful to a lot of people. And I guess Garrett, even though you're not as real estate ish as me, as we wind down here, you know, I think the place that you and I find the most common ground is we often say and help people with the things that sort of fly in the face of conventional guidance. I mean, you really just don't have to think about it that much more than if you just do normal stuff, average, mediocre stuff, you're only going to have a normal, average, mediocre outcome. So can you tell us about any last things that can help get people thinking differently and debunk some of this conventional guidance that really will never help get you much above lower middle class?

Garrett Gunderson 37:40

Yeah, if you're putting your money in mutual funds and ETFs, you're making a bunch of other people money. I mean, the big three is you want to focus on generating cash flow so you can create financial independence. Because if you have enough cash flow from assets to cover your expenses, every active dollar can build more assets. That's an exponential benefit to you. So now that you don't have to be forced to work, you've got a lot more freedom. And the big three for me are real estate businesses or intellectual property, which is kind of, you know, something that is part of business to a degree, but I consider a different asset class. Those are the big three. I have no money in the stock market. I have money in my businesses. I invest in myself. I invest in my vision. I invest in a team, instead of investing in things that I have no control over and I don't get cash flow from and that the economy can change, or that Wall Street's making money on whether I make money or not. So that's just one notion that I think we could probably, you know, agree, flies in the face of what everybody's teaching. That's the masses. But when you look at the wealthiest people, it's how they're implementing and what they're doing.

Keith Weinhold 38:39

And I think another place that conventional guidance really tells people to prioritize is paying down debt or paying off debt. I mean, making your debt free scream at age 34 you know, maybe that's not so bad, but maybe not. I mean, did paying down low to moderate interest rate debt and making that priority sacrifice your lifestyle and your family's lifestyle the entire time while you were doing it, and did it have a steeper opportunity cost, because you were not investing those dollars in things that can earn a greater return than their interest rates were they're using some of the vehicles that you talked about. So, you know, I guess what I'm getting at Garrett philosophically, one way I said it, is that the risk of delayed gratification is denied gratification?

Garrett Gunderson 39:23

Yeah, I mean, if we become sacrifice, how do we ever overcome that habit? I'm I'm scrimping, I'm sacrificing, yeah, I'm deferring. And then one day, what you're supposed to flip the switch be like, Okay, now I'm abundant. I'm gonna enjoy this money that doesn't happen. So that habitual notion of reduce, cut, eliminate, no one shrinks their way to wealth. It's a game of expansion and production. Yes, be efficient, be intelligent, be a steward, but don't become a miser, because misers, no matter how much money they have, never get to feel what it's like to live their richest life. It's always about elimination. Instead of enjoyment and utilization.

Keith Weinhold 40:02

Oh, that is just beautifully stated. I really can't say it any better than that, and that really brings it back full circle as to the best personal finance is probably growing your means rather than practicing living below your means for decades, and then you'll never get that time back. Well, Garrett, you've generated so many good educational resources. Why you've been the successful author and speaker. Tell us more about that.

Garrett Gunderson 40:26

Garrettgunderson.com is where a lot of those resources are. I write a blog like it's 2006 because I love to write and just get information out there. I've created a money persona quiz. So if you go forward slash tools on Garrettgunderson.com you can figure out what's the success or sabotage that happens subconsciously with how you deal with money. It's very informative and useful. I've written 10 books. I offered that if people DM me on Instagram, Garrett B, Gunderson, two R's, two T's, middle initial B and just say, Keith, get rich. Keith get rich. So I know it was on this program, I'll hook you up with the audio and a PDF of the book on me, so that you can hopefully just understand this Rockefeller method and improve your life and start building a legacy right now. Because if you're already doing real estate, that's great, let's make sure to preserve, protect and even perpetuate that wealth with some of the structures that could be integrated.

Keith Weinhold 41:17

Well Garrett, yeah, you have a lot of great resources and just a really wide spectrum of understanding of concepts all across a personal finance field. Is there any last thing you'd like to let our audience know about?

Garrett Gunderson 41:28

Just create the life you don't want to retire from. Design a life that you love. Create enough cash flow from assets to have that economic independence so you have choice and freedom daily of what you do and swing for the fences in that purpose, you know, that's probably the best advice that I could give.

Keith Weinhold 41:43

Why would you want to live your life any other way? Garrett Gunderson, it's been valuable as expected. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Garrett Gunderson 41:51

Thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 41:58

Yeah, a lot on both mindset and long term wealth preservation with Garrett Gunderson today, now, 15 weeks ago, on episode 507 you'll remember that episode called compound interest is weak, where I made a takedown about how compound Interest actually is not serving people. Leverage does serve people. Garrett also makes a takedown and critiques this myth about how people think compound interest builds wealth. A little review. There some comprehension from 15 weeks ago, compound interest has most people counting on the average annual return when they should be focused on the compound annual growth rate. A little review. Remember the average annual return means if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% next year that you broke even. That's the arithmetic thing. But that is a lie. The reality is in this CAGR, the compound annual growth rate, it reflects, if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% the next year, you're at minus 1% the geometric thing. And that's the reality, and that makes a retirement lifestyles worth of difference, and a retirement ages worth of difference like I thoroughly broke down for you in episode 507 coming up on the show here in future weeks, a familiar name like Tom wheelwright returns, and then new guests, like a former NFL player here on the show, if you want to reach out to Garrett Gunderson on Instagram for his best free resources, even the audio and pdf of his Rockefeller method of generational wealth preservation, again on Instagram, you can DM him at Garrett B Gunderson, he let me know later, all you have to do is send him my first name, Keith, and he will hook you up there. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I am supremely grateful and even in awe of your devoted listenership for an entire decade of your life and mine, here's to another 10 years. Don't quit your Daydream.

44:21

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 44:49

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth. Building, get rich, education.com, you.
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521: Terrible Predictions, "End the Fed" and Capitalism with Mises Institute President Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo
30 sep· Get Rich Education
President of the Mises Institute and author of “How Capitalism Saved America”, Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo joins us to uncover the current state of capitalism and if it still exists in America.

Earlier in the episode, Keith discusses the inaccuracy of economic predictions, citing examples like the 2023 recession that never happened, the negative impact of misinformed predictions on investment decisions and business growth.

Persistent housing price crash predictions have been consistently wrong despite global pandemics and higher mortgage rates.

Dr. DiLorenzo advocates for #EndTheFed to reduce inflation and restore free market principles.

Learn how voluntary exchange between buyer and seller through market prices communicates information and influences production.

Resources:

Learn more about Austrian economics and Ludwig von Mises through visiting mises.org

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/521

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, reviewing some terrible economic predictions and why it matters to you. Then the President of the Mises Institute joins us. Does capitalism still exist in the US and what would happen if we ended the Fed, today on get rich education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

welcome to GRE from Syracuse, Sicily to Syracuse, New York, and across 188 nations worldwide, you're listening to one of the longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, now a lot of media companies and pundits and influencers like to make predictions. Listeners like learning about predictions and by engaging just a little of that each of the past few years on one of the last episodes of the year. Here, I forecast the national home price appreciation rate for the following year, many media outlets, pundits and influencers have made terrible, just absolutely terrible, predictions about interest rates and other financial forecasts. Last year, a majority of Pro prognosticators firmly forecast six or eight Fed rate cuts this year, for example, well, we're going to have far fewer, and that's because high inflation kept hanging around. Then there's the 2023 recession that never happened, yet both Bloomberg and the economist actually published some rather ignominious headlines, as it turned out, they published these in the fall of 2022 Bloomberg, big headline was forecast for us, recession within year hits 100% in blow to Biden, well, That was false. That didn't come true. I mean, 100% that doesn't leave you any room for an out. And then also published in the fall of 2022 The Economist ran this headline why a global recession is inevitable in 2023 All right, well, they both believed in a recession, and they believed in it so deeply that it got fossilized. Well, an economic archeologist like me dug it up.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 03:31

We are going to die

Keith Weinhold 03:35

well, but I didn't risk my life like Indiana Jones did there. This archeology, it only involves some Google searches. Well, here's the thing. What's remarkable about America staving off a mammoth recession and leaving all the other g7 nations in the economic dust is the fact that merely predicting a recession often makes it come true. Just predicting one often turns a recession into a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, recession forecast headlines alone, they can spook employers from making new hires and slow down manufacturing, and it can also disillusion real estate investors from expanding their portfolios. Well, the US economy grew anyway, besides the farcical prognostications about myriad interest rate cuts in a quote, unquote definite 2023 recession that never happened. You know, there's also a third forecast that so many got wrong. And you probably know what I'm gonna say. I've brought it up before, because this hits our world, those erstwhile and well still ever present housing price crash predictions. I mean this facet of the gloom boom really ramped up from 2020 One until today, even a global pandemic, new wars and a triplicate mortgage rates couldn't stop the housing price surge and the rent surge. A lot of doomsdayers just couldn't see, or they didn't even want to see that a housing shortage would keep prices afloat. They didn't want to see it because they get more clicks when they talk about the gloom government stimulus programs also buoyed prices, and deep homeowner equity cushions will still keep prices afloat. Ever since 2021 here on the show, I've used that rationale and more to explain that home prices would keep appreciating, but that the rate of appreciation would slow down, and it has slowed down since 2021 see YouTubers tick tockers. They notoriously use woe begone housing crash headlines, because that gets more clicks and then some of the rationale behind this. The reasoning is just dreadful, like, what goes up must come down, all right? Well, this is like, why does it matter? Who cares about wrong predictions anyway? What's the point? Well, people become misinformed. People waste their time on these things and see no one loses money on dismal economic predictions. But the damage is done, because when investors don't act well, then they didn't get the gain that they should have had. Businesses didn't get the gain that they should have had when they could have made new investment and hired new employees sooner. And of course, a recession is going to happen sometime. They occur, on average, every five to six years. It is just a normal part of the business cycle will collectively these three faulty economic predictions, rate cuts, a recession and a housing price crash. I think if you bundle them all up combined, it could be as bad as one doomsday prediction about worldwide starvation or the Mayan apocalypse. Remember that the wide to K bug, the acid rain, even that the internet is just a fad that ran a buck 30 years ago. World War Three is eminent, robots overtaking humans, or how about running out of crude oil. I mean, we're definitely all supposed to have jet packs in flying cars by now, right? But yet, did anyone have the clairvoyance to predict the stock market crash of 1929 or September 11 terrorist attacks, or Trump's surprise, 2016 presidency or Bitcoin hitting 70k A while back, or the coronavirus. So really, overall, the bottom line here with predictions is that no one knows the future. Control what you can maintain equanimity, add good properties, gradually raise rent, reduce expenses, create leverage and expect inflation truly the best way to predict the future is to create it in just that way. Well is the USA capitalistic nation today. That's what we'll discuss later with this week's guest. When Chuck Todd hosted the show Meet the Press, he interviewed AOC about this. Yes, I'm talking about us. House Rep from New York, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, what she say? You

08:34

have said you are democratic socialist. Can you be a Democratic socialist and a capitalist? Well, I think it depends on your interpretation. So there are some Democratic socialists that would say, Absolutely not. There are other people that are democratic socialists that would say, I think it's possible. What are you? I think it's possible. I think you say to yourself, I'm a capitalist, but I don't say that. You know, if anything, I would say, I'm I believe in a democratic economy, but.

Keith Weinhold 09:03

okay, well, I'm not sure if that clears it up at all. And I've listened to more of that clip, and it just makes things more confusing. But I think that most people have trouble drawing a line between capitalism and neighboring economic systems. Where exactly do you draw that line? I don't know exactly where to draw it. When I think of capitalism, I think of things though, like removal of interventionist central planning and allowing the free market to run with few guardrails. And then there's an issue like labor unionization. I don't really know about something like that. This is a real estate show. I'm still forming an opinion on a topic like that. In you know, some of this gets political, and that's beyond the scope of get rich education. The Fed was created in 1913 that central planning, its central banking from 1987 to. 2006 Alan Greenspan reigned as Fed chair. Those were his years, and he became even more interventionist. And then his successor, Ben Bernanke, maybe even more so with quantitative easing and such. Let's talk about, should they end the Fed and capitalism with this week's expert guest. You very well may have heard of the late, famed Austrian American economist Ludwig von Mises today, the Mises Institute carries on his legacy, and this week's guest is none other than the President of the Mises Institute. He's also the number one best selling author of how capitalism saved America and his newer book with a title that I love, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Economics. Hey, it's great to have you here. It is. Dr Thomas DiLorenzo.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:00

pleased to be with you. Thanks for having me.Th

Keith Weinhold 11:02

Well, Dr DiLorenzo, for those that don't know, just tell us a bit in an overview about Austrian economics and what Ludwig von Mises stood for.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:02

Well, Ludwig von Mises was the preeminent critic of socialism and fascism in Europe, and in his day, he fled the Nazis literally hours before the Gestapo broke into his apartment in Geneva, because he was the preeminent critic of fascism and socialism, and he was also Jewish, and so he had to get out of town. And he miraculously ended up after wandering through Europe with his wife in New York City, and he taught at New York University for many years, until he died in 1973 and but the Austrian School of Economics is a school of thought. It has nothing to do with, necessarily, with the Government of Austria, the country of Austria, just this the founder of a man named Carl Menger happened to be from Austria, but probably the most famous or well known among Americans would be Friedrich Hayek, who won the Nobel Prize in 1970s he was a student of Ludwig von Mises and critics of interventionism, critics of socialism. We teach about free markets, of how markets actually work and how governments don't work. And that's in a nutshell, that's what it's about. And you could check out our website, mises.org, M, I, S, E, S.org, you can get a great economic education. We have a lot of free books to download. Some of them are downloaded 30 or 40,000 times a month. Still, it's even Mises old books like human action, first published in the 1960s and so you can get a great education just by reading our website.

Keith Weinhold 12:42

Well, congratulations, that's proof that you're doing an excellent job of carrying on the Mises legacy into the present day, a lot of which is championing capitalism. Do we have capitalism in the United States today?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 12:59

I was an economics professor from 40 years before I got this job as President of the Mises Institute. And I used to say we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism at the beginning of my career. But now I'd say it's the opposite, that we have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. And socialism, this data is not defined anymore as government ownership. That was, you know, about 100 years ago, the socialism. It's basically government control of industry and in addition to government ownership. So the instruments of the welfare state, the income tax and the regulatory state, is our version of socialism, or central planning, if you will. And it's the Federal Reserve the Fed, which is a government agency that orchestrates the whole thing, really, it's a big, massive central planning industry that controls, regulates basically every aspect of any kind of financial transaction imaginable. They list in their publications over 100 different functions of the Federal Reserve. It's not just monetary policy. It's a big regulatory behemoth, and so that's that's what the Fed is. That's what I think we have today. A friend of mine, Robert Higgs, a well known economic historian, says our system is what he calls participatory fascism. And fascism was a system where private enterprise was permitted, but it was so heavily regulated and regimented by the government that industry had to do what government wanted to do, not what its customers wanted it to do, so much, and a large part of our economic system is just like that, and we get to vote still, so that's where the participatory and comes in, and the pin of Robert Hinz.

Keith Weinhold 14:41

yeah, maybe at best, I can think of today's system as capitalism with guardrails on but the guardrails keep getting taller. And I think of guardrails as being, for example, regulatory agencies like the Fed in FINRA. In the FDA.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 15:01

It is the beginning of my career. You know, I studied economics and a PhD in economics, and there was a big literature on what's called regulatory capture. And it was sort of a big secret among US economic academics. There was all this research going on and how the big regulatory agencies created by the federal government in the late 19th, early 20th centuries, were captured by the industries that they were supposed to be regulating. Right? The theory was they would regulate these industries in the public's best interests. But what has happened from the very beginning is they were captured by the industries, and they benefit the industry at the expense of the public. But today, that's caught on thanks to people like Robert Kennedy Jr, frankly, has been a very popular author. He sold a gazillion copies of his book on Anthony Fauci, and in it, he explains in tremendous detail how the Food and Drug Administration was long ago captured by the pharmaceutical companies. And he's not the only one. I think that that is being more and more recognized by people outside of academic economics, like me, and that's a good thing, and that's sort of the worst example of crony capitalism. It's not real capitalism, but crony capitalism making money through government connections, rather than producing better products, cheaper products and so forth.

Keith Weinhold 16:21

I watched RFK Jr speak in person recently, and I was actually disappointed when he effectively dropped out of the upcoming presidential race. And I do want to talk more with you about the Fed shortly, but with all these regulatory agencies and how I liken them to guard rails. You know, I sort of think of it as a watchdog system that's failing. You mentioned the FDA. I know RFK Jr brought them up an awful lot, the Food and Drug Administration that are supposed to help regulate what we put inside our own bodies in our diet. But these systems are failing. We have regulatory agencies in industry, industry in regulatory agencies. I mean, look at the obesity rate. Look at all the ultra processed food that's allowed. Look at all the seed oils that are allowed in food that people actually think are healthy for them. So this system of capitalism with guardrails is failing almost everywhere you look.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 16:22

I wouldn't call it capitalism. I wouldn't use the word capitalism at all, other than crony capitalism, people can relate to that. You know, a lot of these regulatory agencies were lobbied for in the first place by industry. That while the very first one was the Interstate Commerce Commission, it was in the 1880s it was meant to regulate the railroad companies. The first president was the president of a Railroad Corporation, the head of the Interstate Commerce Commission. So talk about the fox guarding the hen house. That was from the very beginning. And so in a sense, this word capture theory of regulation, which Kennedy has used, they weren't really captured. They always were created by the government. The same is true of all the so called Public Utilities. It was the corporations, the electric power companies, the water supply companies, that lobbied for governments to give them a monopoly, a legal monopoly, in electricity, water supply and all these things that were called natural monopolies, but there was nothing natural about them. There was vigorous competition in the early 20th century in telephone, electricity, water supply, and that was all set aside by government regulation, creating monopolies. For example, in electric power, there's an economist named Walter primo who wrote a book some years ago showing that always have been several dozen cities in America that never went this way, that always allowed direct competition between electric power companies. And what do you know, better service and lower prices. As a result, they did dozens of statistical studies to demonstrate this in his book.

Keith Weinhold 18:58

Okay, well, that's a great case study. Why don't we talk about what things would look like if we took down one of these agencies? We're a real estate investing in finance show. Sometimes it's a popular meme or hashtag to say, end the Fed. What would it look like if we ended the Fed?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 19:18

Well, the Fed was created in 1913 in the same era, with all these other regulatory captured agencies were created, right? And it was created basically to cartelize and create a cartel for the banking industry to make it almost impossible to go bankrupt. They've been bailing out foolish bankers for 111 years. And of course, the biggest example was that as the crash of 08 after they they handed Goldman Sachs and other big investment banks billions of dollars. That was a direct assault on capitalism itself, because capitalism, as you know, is a profit and loss system. It's not a I keep the profits. You pay for my losses system. You're the taxpayer. But that's what happened with that. So the Fed would. Fall into that the Fed is actually the fourth central bank in America. We had three other ones. First one was called Bank of North America. Its currency was so unreliable, nobody trusted it went out of business in a year and a half. And then we created something called the Bank of the United States in 1791 same thing. It created boom and bust cycles, high unemployment, price inflation, corrupted politics. It was defunded after 20 years, and then it was brought back to fund the debt from the war of 1812 and so we had a Second Bank of the United States. It did the same thing, boom and bust cycles, price inflation, corrupted politics. Benefited special interest, but not the general interest, and President Andrew Jackson defunded it, and so we went without a central bank from roughly 1840 until 1913 so we've had experience of that. And what we had been was competing currencies, and that would be sort of a stepping stone. If we got rid of the fed, we wouldn't have to abolish the Fed altogether. We could amend the charter to the Fed to say you're no longer permitted to buy bonds. Can't buy government bonds anymore. That's how they inflate the money supply, right? By buying bonds. That's totally unnecessary. And we could just just that would be a great step forward, and we would sort of whittle away our $80 trillion debt, if you count again upon count the unfunded liabilities of the federal government,

Keith Weinhold 21:26

if we did end the Fed, what would the price of money? Which are interest rates really look like? Would a new market rate be sent by individuals and companies on the free market like Bank of America, with a customer or borrower settling on an interest rate that they both agree to.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 21:44

You know, the Fed uses sort of Soviet style economics, price control. The economists and are all getting all over Kamala Harris for recommendations for price controls on rent and other things. Well, the Fed price control. They control the price of money. That's what they do. And so there's a big, kind of a comical thing that here you have all these economists, if they were to teach economics in the week one, they would teach about the bad effects of price controls, and then they get a job at the Fed, and they spend their whole career enforcing price controls on money, and the interest rate would be determined by supply and demand for credit and inflationary expectations. That's what the market does. And you wouldn't have these bureaucrats at the Fed tinkering around with interest rates, creating tremendous arbitrage opportunities for Wall Street investors. With all the movements and interest rates, you'd have much more stable interest rates, and and you wouldn't have this ridiculous system where the Fed says we need to always have forever at least 2% inflation. And of course, they never meet that, and they lie about it. I don't believe for one minute that the price inflation right now is 3% or under 3% that's ridiculous, right? And so things should be getting cheaper. Everything should be getting cheaper because of all the technology we have. My first PC I bought in the early 80s for $4,000 and it was a piece of prehistoric junk compared to my cell phone today, that almost for free. Almost everything should be like that agriculture, but the reason it isn't is the Fed keeps pumping so much money in circulation, that it pumps up the demand for goods and services, and that's what creates price inflation. And by its own admission, that's what it does, even though it's charter, it's original charter said they're supposed to fight inflation. All of a sudden, about 10 years ago or so, they announced, south of blue, we always have to have at least 2% inflation. Congress had nothing to do with that. President had nothing to do with that, and the people of America had nothing to do with that. It was dictators like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke that just make these announcements. And where does that come from when we live under the dictatorship of the Fed? And of course, the people who are hurt the most by the Fed are elderly people are living on relatively fixed incomes and are forced to become Wall Street speculators they want to make any more money other than their fixed income, where, you know, during the days of Greenspan, when they're pursuing zero interest rates, maybe the mortgage industry like that, but the people on retirement income were starving as a result of that. So it's been sort of an economic war on the retired population.

Keith Weinhold 24:24

Things should get faster and cheaper to produce, like you said. However, there's definitely one thing that's not getting faster to produce, that's housing build times. Housing build times have actually gone up, which is sort of another discussion unto itself. But we talk about the Fed and then setting prices. People wouldn't stand for setting the price or having price controls on oil or lumber or bananas, but yet we set the price of money itself. People have just become accustomed to that. Yet it's that money itself that we use to buy oil and lumber and bananas the fed with that dual mandate of stable prices and maximum employment. If we did abolish the Fed, what would happen to the rate of inflation?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 25:12

Well, we would have less inflation. It's supposed to what we replace it with. There's some system would be a replacement, but we wouldn't have the boom and bust cycles that we have now. There's been research in the past 100 years or so of the Fed, and what the academic researchers have concluded is that the Fed has made the economy in general more unstable than it was before we had the Fed and price inflation. That's a joke. The dollar is worth maybe three cents of what it was in the year 1913 right when the Fed was created. So it has failed on all accounts. And so if we got rid of it, we would reverse that. The idea would be to start out with a competing money system. And I'll tell you a quick story is, you know the word Dixie from the south, you know land of Dixie that was named after a currency by a New Orleans bank called the Dix D, I x 10 in French, and it was 100% gold reserve. It was backed by something real and valuable, and it was so popular as even used in Minnesota. But that's why the whole south, the states in the South, were using this currency, because it was so reliable. But during the Civil War, the national currency acts imposed taxes on the competing currencies and taxed them out of business and established the greenback dollar, as it was called, as the Monopoly money of the country. We didn't get a central bank during the Civil War, but we got that. And so that's the kind of system that we would have. Friedrich Hayek wrote a whole book about this, about competing currencies, called the denationalization of money. He poses that as a good stepping stone to a freer market in money. And like you said, Money is the most important thing. Is most more important than bananas or shoes or any of these other things that we might have price controls on.

Keith Weinhold 27:01

All right, so we're talking about the case for ending the Fed. What is the counter argument? I mean, other than the government wanting control, is there a valid, or any academic counter argument for keeping the Fed in place?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 27:16

The Fed has an army. I call it the Fed's Praetorian Guard of academics. There was a research article published by an economist named Larry White at George Mason University several years ago, and he found that 75% of all the articles in the academic journals regarding money, monetary policy and so forth, are by people who are basically paid by the Fed, one way or the other. Either they're fed economists, or they've been invited to a conference by the Fed, or they're an intern some relationship with the Fed. The late Milton Friedman once said, If you want a career as a monetary economist, it's not a good idea to criticize the biggest employer in your field. So there's a lot of nonsense about that. And so yes, you'll have all sorts of rationales, but it basically comes down to this, that we think we can do central planning better than the Russians did under communism, because the Fed is basically an economic central planning agency, and there's no reason to believe Americans are better at it than the Russians or anybody else. And it basically comes down to that, you know, studying the past 111 years that's showing Well, yeah, they've been trying that for 111 years. They've made the economy more unstable, and they have failed miserably to control inflation. And why should we give them another chance? Why should we continue along this road? We shouldn't So, yeah, there'll be all kind of excuses the late Murray Rothbard, who was one of the founders of the Mises, who once answered this question by saying, It's as though people said, Well, say the government always made shoes. 100 years ago they took over the shoe industry. People would be saying, who will make shoes if the government doesn't make shoes? The government has always made shoes, right? But the government has not always monopolized the money supply. It's only like I said, we abolished three Feds in our history. In American history, they weren't called the Fed, but they were central banks. And the Fed is called a central bank, and we've done that three times. We've abolished more central banks than we have kept in American history.

Keith Weinhold 29:17

We're talking with Dr Thomas D Lorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. About, is there really any capitalism left more when we come back, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at RidgeLendingGroup.com, that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family to 66866.

Kristen Tate 31:11

This is author Kristen Tate. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:27

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. You can learn more about them @mises.org and Dr DiLorenzo. Frederick Hayek, an economist that you mentioned very well known and a student of Ludwig von Mises, he believed that prices are a communication mechanism between a buyer and a seller. Say, for example, there's a new style of single family rental home that everyone wants to rent. So therefore the rent price goes up when other builders see that the rent price goes up, that brings in more builder competition, and with more competition, that brings rent prices down, and then the world is filled with abundant housing, rather than a scarcity of housing. So that's how I think of a free market system within capitalism as working, as defined through Hayek.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 32:22

You know, the consumer is king. Von Mises once wrote about the same point where he said that people mistakenly believe that it's the bankers and the CEOs and the businesses that control what gets produced and so forth, but it's really the consumer. You build a housing development then people don't want those houses. You'll find out real fast who's in charge. It's not the mortgage brokers. It's not the bankers. It's not you, it's the consumer. That's the free market system, and if you do without it, and not using the free market system, whether it's for money or anything else, is kind of like trying to find your way around a strange city with no street signs, and the prices are the street signs that tell us what to do, exactly like you said, if there's strong demand for a certain type of housing, that'll drive the price up, and that'll tell the home builders, we can make money building more of these. And they will do that. Nobody tells them. The Chairman of the Fed doesn't have to tell them that the President doesn't have to tell them that Congress doesn't have to issue a declaration telling them to do that. That was the Soviet Union where they tried that. And that's the great thing about the market, is that the consumer can tell the richest man in the world like Elon Musk, go play in the traffic. Elon Musk, if they don't like his cars or whatever he's producing, even though he's the richest man in the world. And he understands that he's a pretty successful businessman, I would say, and so so he understands that the consumer is his boss.

Keith Weinhold 33:53

Well, what else do we need to know? You have published a lot of celebrated books, from how capitalism saved America to the politically incorrect guide to economics. What else might a real estate investor or an economic enthusiast need to know today? Oh,

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 34:10

well, I think everybody needs to be their own economist. You can listen to the talking heads on TV and on podcasts and all that, but educate yourself and become your own economist. Because a lot of the people on TV, as you might see on the news, they have an ax to grind, or they have a sort of a hidden financial interest beyond what they're saying, Be your own economist. And that's why I'm selling my website, which is everything on it, it's for free, mises.org, and there are quite a few others too. You don't have to go to school, you don't have to get a degree. You can get a good economic education, for example, on money. We're in the middle of giving away 100,000 copies of a book called What has government done to our money. I'm Murray rothbar. You go to our website, scroll down to the bottom, and you can fill out a form online, and we'll send you free books and. You can educate yourself that way. And so just in general, I think that's what people need to do. I taught MBA students for many years who are people in their 30s or maybe even early 40s, who didn't have economics degrees, but they were really into it, and for the first time in their careers, they decided maybe I should understand how the economic world that I live in and work in every day operates rather than going through your life and your career without you. Might know all about real estate sales, but it's also useful to know about the economy in general and how things work.

Keith Weinhold 35:35

And when one becomes their own economic student and they take that on, I think it's important for them, like you touched on to not just consume the economic news that's on CNBC or other major media, because that doesn't really tell you how to create wealth. It might inform you, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how to take action. For example, on this show an educational channel, you might learn about a story about rising inflation like we had starting three or four years ago. And here we talk about how, okay, if inflation is going to be a long term economic force, you may or may not like what the Fed is doing, but rather than save money, borrow money, outsource that debt service to the tenant on a cash flowing asset like a single family home or an apartment building. And that inflation that you're learning about on CNBC will actually benefit you and debase your debt with prudent leverage on a property, for example, so not just consuming the news, but learning and educating yourself and acting.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 36:34

Oh, sure, well It just so happens that last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a real estate professional. They're all talking about, Oh, are we going to have a slight drop in interest rates? And I reminded them that there will be a part of the market if they see it, if we do have a slight drop in interest rates, we'll look at that and say, well, maybe this is a new trend. And so I'll sit back and I'll wait. I'm not going to buy now, because I think the interest rates are going to go down even further in the next six months there were, there would be some segment of the market that thinks that way. And so that's just one little thing. Another thing I would mention is that one of the basic tenets of free market economics is that voluntary trade is mutually beneficial. People buy and sell from each other, because both sides benefit. And that's very important for any business person to keep in mind as you structure business deals, because you know about business deal that is successful is basically, I will give you what you want, and you give me what I want, and we're both happy. And that's that's one of the main tenets of how the market works. Voluntary exchange is mutually beneficial. So think about how to make it mutually beneficial, and you'll succeed in making a deal.

Keith Weinhold 37:45

Well, it's been an excellent discussion on Is there any capitalism left, and how would it look like if we turned the course and created more capitalism here in the United States? It's been great having you on the show.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 37:58

Thank you.

Keith Weinhold 38:05

Yeah , again, Learn more @mises.org or look up books by Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. His viewpoint is that there are now merely islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism where those conditions were inverted last century. We've got to end the complex between the government and corporations that these watchdogs are basically powerless when the fox is guarding the henhouse. Dr dilorezzo says we could change the Fed charter so that they couldn't buy bonds, which should reduce inflation. So he does offer a way forward there, a solution. In capitalism, he consumer is king. This is a good thing. You yourself are empowered because you get to vote with your dollars. So therefore what you buy more of society will see and make more of but a prosperous, progressive economy that should be able to produce goods and services that are constantly cheaper because they get more and more efficient to make with innovation, but centrally planned inflation makes them more expensive, at least in dollar denominated terms. So progress should make things cheaper? Well, then everything should take fewer dollars to buy, homes, oil, bananas, grapes, but it doesn't, and it won't anytime soon, like I mentioned in the interview, there single family build times are taking even longer. That's not more efficient, and they're sure not getting cheaper. In fact, the National Association of Home Builders tells us that from permit to completion in 2015 it took 7.2 months to build a single family home. By 2019 it was up to 8.1 months and then. Last year, the time required to build a single family home from permit to completion was 10.1 months. That's not the side of an efficient economy. So basically, therefore, in the last eight, nine years, the time to build a home has gone from 7.2 months up to 10.1 months. That is a drastic increase in a short period of time. Just amazing. And we now have data after covid as well, broken down by region. The longest build time, by the way, is in New England, where it is 13.9 months to build a home from permit to completion. Gosh, such inefficiency. But despite all that stuff that you might find discouraging like that, I want to go out on a good news note here some encouraging sentiment for you, if you champion free markets, then invest in us rental property down the road, there is no centrally controlled ceiling on what you can sell your property for. Most places don't have rent control. In fact, there's been no federal rent control on private property since World War Two. And somewhat ironically, you benefit. You actually benefit from government backed loans at these low fixed rates, and now they're moderate fixed rates. You often get these through Fannie Freddie or the FHA. See you benefit from that particular government backing as a savvy borrower for rental property. And on top of this, you use the GRE inflation triple crown to flip over that not so capitalistic inflationary force. You flip it upside down and use it to your benefit, profiting fantastically from inflation. So you know how to take the situation you're given and use it to your advantage rather than your detriment. Big thanks to Dr Thomas DiLorenzo today, longtime econ professor and current Mises Institute president, more ways to build Real Estate Wealth coming up here for you on the show in future weeks, as always, with the dash of economics and wealth mindset. Until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

42:28

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 42:56

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.
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520: How to Use Other People’s Money for Your Rental Property Loan
23 sep· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses his journey from an entitlement mentality to realizing the importance of wealth creation through real estate investing and shares the real estate shockwave that nobody is talking about.

We are also joined by Caeli Ridge, President of Ridge Lending Group, as she explains the differences between owner-occupied and investor mortgage loans.

Hear about the ease of entering real estate investing with no formal qualifications or high income required.

Learn the concept of demographic shockwaves and how the aging population will influence housing demand in the future.

How to ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property.

Learn about the key differences between owner-occupied mortgage loans and investor mortgage loans, particularly the use of rental income in qualification.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, I'll discuss when I was an employee with a scarcity mindset, the real estate shock wave coming that no one's talking about, then, how you can ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property today, on get rich education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold rights for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

welcome to GRE from Springfield Ohio to Springfield, Missouri and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. It's great to have you back for another week, and I genuinely appreciate your listenership, and I am grateful to have such a large audience. I've got to tell you, admittedly, coming out of college and in my first couple full time jobs, I wasn't always a good employee. I guess I had somewhat of an entitlement mentality. I'm not sure where that came from. I don't know that I can blame anyone else on planning it inside me. I don't know where I got this notion. It sure wasn't from my parents, but I kind of felt like somebody owed me a job just because I have a college degree and I'm good at showing up on time, yeah, like, I'm just a good representative for your company. I mean, now I can see that no one owed me a doggone thing. In fact, I owed my employer value. An employer actually takes a big risk on you when they hire you, paying you to train you until you're productive there. I mean, the hiring process itself is even expensive. Well, though I felt like someone owed me a job just out of college, somewhat Oppositely, I never expected any sort of high income at all, and I had quite a modest income in my first couple years out of college, just like a lot of recent college grads do, until it grew into something more. But my humble geography degree, it conditioned me to think lower income. I knew that going to college in Pennsylvania for geography in what interested me, I mean, that's what I went with, what interested me not what I could make money in well, then I couldn't find a job in my geography field at all. No one would really pay me to describe Asia's mountain ranges to them. So what I ended up doing is working under engineers at a construction and engineering firm, a few of them, one engineering firm really liked me and designated me as their new marketing person. Of all things, they wanted me to call prospective clients on the phone and meet them cold in person, because they just thought somehow, when they met me, that I could win new business for the engineering firm, just I guess, based on how I communicated with other people at other engineering companies, even though I couldn't even talk the language of engineering. Well, anyway, these disciplines engineering, and really it was construction inspection that I did for a while. You know, that stuff, even the marketing stuff, it just didn't fill my soul. And you must have felt this way at your job before. If you don't feel it perpetually, you aren't aligned with your purpose on this earth, and you're spending so many of your faculties and so much of your waking conscious life at that job. Well, motivation to escape that is what got me reading about wealth mindset and real estate investing. Since anyone can do it, no degree needed, no certification, zero formal qualification. And now I think I mentioned this to you before, but it's worth bringing up here again, a turning point is when I read one life changing sentence, just one little what is it? A. Five word sentence in a rich dad book, that pivotal paradigm shifting, course correcting sentence was, being wealthy is a choice. And when I first read being wealthy is a choice, I just didn't believe it. I thought that Robert Kiyosaki, the author, was wrong. Well now I know that he was right. I had thought that being rich is unobtainable. You had to be born into it, so unless you won the lottery, you can't achieve more than middle class. Well, I was wrong about that. Now I can't really say something like, oh, well, a college professor said that rich people are bad or, you know, I don't have that story. I can't blame anyone else for growing up with a limited, scarcity mindset, really, other than myself in the context that was created around me. I mean, growing up in Pennsylvania, I just knew that the carts family and the domileskeys, they had more than us. And that's just the way it would always be. It's sort of preordained, and other families had less than us, and these family trajectories were just cast in stone as to how it had to be. But the good news is that it's not, and this is still what makes America great, the fact that it takes zero formal training, zero risk parents, and not even a high salary for you to do something like get a three and a half percent down payment loan for owner occupied FHA fourplex or 20% down for a single family rental that produces income from day one in The Southeast or Midwest, you can plant that seed that get other people's money working for you seed in just that way, even if you're interested in something as unprofitable as geography. Now, a huge reason that people disparage the wealthy is rooted in jealousy and envy, and that is not good. There's no goodness in those emotions, and that is because people don't think it's obtainable for them. It's obtainable for almost anybody. Learning that it is within your reach that completely breaks down your resentment of the rich. Yes, indeed, being wealthy is a choice. Well, people are obtaining wealth in today's real estate market. Here, Redfin reported that through the latest quarter ended real estate investors bought fully one in four of the nation's most affordable homes. That's up 3% year over year. And as Redfin puts it, it's a sign that investor activity is stabilizing, and as homeownership remains out of reach for many Americans, real estate investors are coming out of hibernation to take advantage of robust demand from renters. So investors are buying a greater proportion of affordable homes, some of them through our marketplace, GRE marketplace. Now over the long term, let's think about how US housing is going to be positioned for sustainable demand. Demography is destiny. That's a quote attributed to 19th century philosopher Auguste coon Tay, it means that the size and structure of a population will influence its future. So then all we need to do is track the age of a population over time to sharpen and give clarity to a forecast. It is axiomatic that in 10 years, a 25 year old will be 35 No kidding. Well, what's important about the age of 35 is that is the average age of today's first time homebuyer. It's between 35 and 36 All right. Well, the US is peak birth year occurred in 2007 we know that just look at demographics. Well, then add 35 to it. Add 35 years to 2007 This means that, on average, they will buy their first home in the early 2040s a lot of people are going to be forming their first household, whether it's rent or buy around the year 2040, I mean, the peak in all of American history, a lot more people will need homes. In fact, more than 13,000 Americans are turning age 35 every single day for the foreseeable future for more than a decade. This year is the first year where we've ever had over 13,000 Americans turning 35 every single day. And that is projected to continue to happen every single year through 2035 and that's as late as the Census Bureau projection that I have goes on. On that stat this baked in demographic housing demand. Hey, if we don't get serious about building more housing fast, and it's likely that we won't, this will be analogous to a demographic shock wave that hits the housing market. The population aging into homeownership is projected to exceed the population aging out, as in the death rate for a long time. This will pump housing demand, and that's not all. I've only talked domestically so far. This doesn't even account for additional demand from immigration. And immigrants tend to be younger and are renters for a long duration, or just forever. On top of immigration, the average number of people per household is falling as well. In 1960 3.3, people live per household in 1990 it was down to 2.6 by 2023 it was down to 2.5 this means that more housing is required just in order to shelter the same population. But of course, the population won't stay static. So to keep piling on with the housing demand here, the overall US population is projected to grow as well, from 342 million today to 383 million in 30 years. That's per the CBO. The demographics for senior housing are even more bullish. And of course, when I use the word bullish like this, this bullish sentiment that's from the investor side. If you're looking to buy your first home or find a place to rent, this is all more discouraging than perhaps all of our perpetual struggles to live a balanced life or lose weight. This baked into the cake. Demand is almost perfectly predictable, and it's of seismic importance to the real estate market. And yet, despite that fact, you know, more investors curiously fixate for month after month on something like the Fed's interest rate decision or the next jobs report. I mean, this is both harder to predict and way less significant than the sustainable demographic demand for rental housing that you got right there. So really, to sum up, this segment demographics reveal that housing demand should stay high for decades, long term, then you should expect higher home prices, higher occupancy rates and higher rents. And you can benefit by owning many rental properties. And our guest and I are about to discuss how you can do exactly that own many rental properties, and how to do it efficiently with less cash out of your pocket, including how you can start using other people's money before you even own a property when you're trying to qualify for a loan on a rental property, in some cases, you can Use a portion of the tenant's rent income toward your qualification income. Let's talk with this week's guest. There's one place that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation that's time for a big welcome back to their president, Caeli Ridge.

Caeli Ridge 13:23

Keith Weinhold, my friend, thank you for having me happy to be here, sir.

Keith Weinhold 13:26

Oh, it's so good to have you here. You're a longtime friend of the show and so many of our listeners that you've helped originate investor mortgage loans. Caeli leads Ridge lending group. They're an investor centric lender. She does such a good concise job of explaining specifically what real estate investors need to know in optimizing your loan positions. In fact, on a previous episode, she once broke down every single line of a closing disclosure form for us one by one, detailing each individual closing cost and prepaid item and in there, besides being specific income property loan experts, they're really thorough and helpful that way. Well, Caeli, tell us about the key differences between owner occupied mortgage loans for buying a primary residence and investor mortgage loans for a rental property.

Caeli Ridge 14:17

The key things are that on a rental property, probably the biggest difference is going to be that for a rental property, there's additional incomes that potentially we get to use to help offset that new monthly liability, aka the mortgage payment, p, i, t i, principal, interest, tax and insurance, we have access to income potentially to help offset that. So in the debt to income ratio category, it can be a huge boon or a huge benefit, depending on what the individual's qualifications are. Additionally, in that same theme, we're not just confined to a conventional Fannie Freddie loan for investors. We have things like the DSCR debt service coverage ratio that you would not be able to apply to a primary residence, but also allows for income to help identify whether the property qualifies for financing.

Keith Weinhold 15:04

So for prospective investor borrower is wondering whether we'll have enough income to qualify for that property or not. Is it a certain percentage of the tenants rent income that is used in the investor borrowers qualification income?

Caeli Ridge 15:19

absolutely, so conventional full doc mortgages they are going to receive in the acquisition year formula, because there's two formulas that will be used in underwriting. One is called the acquisition year. The other one is called the Schedule E I'll focus on the acquisition year. This is applicable from the date that they acquire the property and until that tax year's Federal tax return is filed. I needed to find up to in a minute they get up to 75% of the gross rents minus the proposed p, i, t, I, principal, interest, tax and insurance. Now I say up to because it depends on two primary criteria that the borrower must possess in order to get the full 75% so think about it this way. There's three buckets. Okay, the first bucket gets the full 75% of whatever the gross rents are. The easy math example that I give, let's say that the gross rents are $1,000 a month. The PI ti proposed payment is 500 a month. If they're in bucket number one, and they get the full 75% of 1000 they have 750 bucks, right? And from that they're going to subtract out the $500 of mortgage payment. In that example, it would leave them with a gain positive 250 so that individual came to us with a debt to income ratio of x as a result of purchasing this investment property, their DTI is going to go down because they're $250 richer monthly. So 75% is the maximum you can use in the acquisition year. That individual in that bucket has to demonstrate two things. One, they have a primary housing expense, whether that's a mortgage or they rent, either is fine. And then second, they need to be able to demonstrate that they can they've had 12 months of history in owning investment property. So if they have both of those two things, they get the full 75 if they have one or the other, they're in bucket number two, which gives us an offset. They cannot have the full 75% they don't get the full gain, but I can offset. So going back to my example, using $1,000 of income and $500 of mortgage payment, they can't have the 250 gain, but I can give them up to 500 making that a zero, right? It's covered completely the mortgage payment. It's not increased any debt or anything in the example. So DTI would stay exactly the same as where they began, when we started. And then finally, bucket number three would mean that individuals that have neither of those two things, no primary they live rent free, no primary house expense, and they do not have 12 months demonstrated history currently, of being an investor. They get zero of the rental income, so they've got to support the full new payment within their DTI and keep it within that 50% threshold. So that was a long explanation to the question, but I think that that pretty much covers it.

Keith Weinhold 17:56

Now, That's really helpful. Okay, that can help the borrower's debt to income ratio. I guess a lot of cases is going to be helping it out by a small amount. What if, say that investors buying a new build rental property and there is no tenant, hence no rent income there yet.

Caeli Ridge 18:11

I'm so glad you asked. So on a subject property basis, that is the property in which they're purchasing at the moment in time. It's called the subject property. Those properties do not need to be tenant occupied. We can use assumptive rental income from the appraisal on a rental property that will come with some additional forms. It's called a 1007, it's just the number on the page. Those are rental income comps. The appraiser has given us an average of what those rents are going to be, and that's what we're going to use the 75% calculation on.

Keith Weinhold 18:41

Okay, that's really good to know new build or resale rental property, that's going to work the same with either one there. Now I know oftentimes that one wants to qualify. When we look at non order occupied properties, rental properties with conventional conforming loans from Fannie or Freddie, typically, one puts 20% down on those properties we've talked before. I think one can put as little as 15% down, although they would have PMI in that case, or alternatively, rather than putting 20% down, last time I checked, they could put 25% down and get a lower interest rate. So can you talk to us about the interplay of the percent down payment for rental property.

Caeli Ridge 19:21

I'll start by saying, more often than not, when you do the math the capital expenditure, or in this case, the difference between 5% down 80 versus 75% divided by the monthly payment difference, you're going to find that the leverage is going to outperform the higher 80% will outperform the lower 75% but absolutely, to your point, the payment is going to be less for two reasons. At the 75% level, the interest rate will be lower because you've got more skin in the game. The interest rate, loan level, price adjustment for 75% is going to be more attractive than it will be at 20% down. So the rate will be lower. And of course. The loan amount is lower, so both of those combined characteristics are going to create better cash flow, it's true, and a lower monthly payment. However, the math that I always want to promote, that people are doing is looking at it side by side, all you have to do, and it's actually much easier than people, I think, assume. So you figure out the capital expenditure difference. Let's just use 100 grand, okay, because his math is simple. So you've got $5,000 in additional capital that you'd be bringing to the table for the 75% option, right? Versus retaining the five grand, the payment difference is 50 bucks a month. Okay? Whatever the number is, all you're going to do is take the five grand and divide that by the payment difference, and that will give the individual the number of months it takes them to recapture that capital for the savings. Generally, my opinion, per an investment property is that if that number is in excess of 36 months, it's going to take you over 30 or three years to recapture that capital versus the savings. I'd keep my money because I can do one of a few things with it. If I chose to, I could cash flow the 50 bucks myself every month for 100 months, if that was the math. Or I could apply that five grand and use it with some other monies, perhaps, and buy another investment property, or put it in different investment asset class that would provide a return so more often than not, when they do that math, my belief is, when I do it, I'd say even 95% of the time, the higher the leverage is going to be, the better return numbers.

Keith Weinhold 21:27

We're philosophically aligned that way. We're leveraged proponents here, typically the smaller down payment, 20% is going to be better for you long term than 25% even though you'll get a somewhat lower interest rate on a rental property, putting 25% down rather than 20% when we pull back, we look at the interest rate difference between an owner occupied property and a rental property. What is the spread between the interest rate? Of course, you're going to pay higher interest rate on a rental property because it's a lot less likely that the borrower is going to walk away from their own home than they would a rental property.

Caeli Ridge 22:02

exactly and this is a great segue into those LLPAs that I always like that we spend some time talking about. So llpa, loan level, price adjustment. So for the GRE listeners, this is a more complicated concept, so I'm going to try and quickly break it down. Keith loves it when I get so wordy. So llpa is a positive or a negative number that associates with the individual characteristics of the loan transaction. So one of those characteristics, obviously, is occupancy. The loan level price adjustment for a primary residence versus an investment property is quite different, and for the reasons exactly that you described, there's a lot less risk in a primary then there will be in a rental. Because if an individual needs to choose between defaulting on where they live and an investment property, if it came down to that, obviously they're going to maintain, yeah, so they got to choose. So skin in the game, risk, etc, generally speaking. And there's all those other variables too, credit score, loan size, loan to value, property type, purchase versus refi, those are all unique llpas That will have their own unique number. But in general terms, an owner occupied where you live is typically going to price out an interest rate about one percentage point lower than you would find on an investment property, generally, if we're comparing apples to apples.

Keith Weinhold 23:15

talking about that risk difference for the lender, just like in the 20% versus 25% down. Example, there's less risk for the lender when you put 25% skin in the game. Hence the lower interest rate there too. Caeli, tell us about fitting the right mortgage type to the borrower. And of course, there are so many types. There's 30 year versus 15 year, fixed rate mortgages versus Adjustable Rate Mortgages, interest only, DSCR loans like you touched on. So tell us about getting that right fit for that individual borrower.

Caeli Ridge 23:49

This is a bit of a rabbit hole. So what I would start by saying is we do at Ridge take a lot of time on the front end and identifying not only what their needs are, their goals are, but obviously what their qualifications are, and marrying all of those things together and coming up with a roadmap that I like to call it, depending on where the individual is in their journey of real estate investing, as the tax returns may continue to be filed, and how aggressive they want to be with their deductions, maybe some cost segregation. I know I'm getting a little bit technical here, but because we maintain and have all of those products, it's very, very uncommon, or very rare, that we find an investor, potential client, that we do not have some sort of loan product to satisfy what their end game or end goal is. And you know, maybe we continue to graduate them. Let's say that they start in a DSCR because they can't qualify for Fannie Freddie today, but that is their ultimate goal. We're going to provide them with the insight and the background or the feedback that plants the seeds and gets them to that place in six months or a year, or whatever. So I hope I answered the question, depending on their individual needs and goals and qualifications, of course, really will dictate which one of those is going to be applicable.

Keith Weinhold 25:00

We've got a lot more to discuss, including, is it easier to approve w2 incomes from a day job versus 1099 from contract or gig work? And more, we're talking with the nation's foremost expert on income property. She is the president of ridge lending group, Caeli ridge. More, we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com. That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you, the national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor two, earn 8% hundreds of others are text family, 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family, 266, 866

Robert Kiyosaki 27:00

This is Rich Dad, Poor Dad Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 27:18

Welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Ridge lending Group President Chaley ridge. These discussions are great, because debt, through leverage, builds wealth even faster than compound interest, as I've discussed, and Caeli is really the linchpin in her company, and help makes that happen with reliable income property loans and Caeli today, there are a lot more people with sharing economy income, gig economy income, or doing contract work, and they're paid with a 1099 form that shows their income for that year, versus a w2 employee wage job. So can you tell us about whether it's easier to approve those that have a w2 income and that versus the 1099

Caeli Ridge 28:03

I don't know that I would classify it as easier as harder. It's just different. So on the 1099 first and foremost, if you don't have a 24 month history of having that kind of income, you're not going to get a conventional loan. And assuming that we're going to kind of keep on that path of Fannie Freddie's. Because remember, guys, if you can't fit into those boxes. We've got 10 others that we can look to to get the financing for. But if we're in the Fannie Freddie, that's really where this is applicable, the 1099 and the w2 I mean, they're really equal in terms of the overall process. The difference would be that with 1099 you must have that 24 month history. The calculation is that we're going to take an average, it gets a little bit convoluted, like anything else that is leverage or financing related, but a 24 month average of 1099 unless we can show that that individual, let's say that they're self employed and maybe a Schedule C, and they've got their 1099 coming in through that way. If they can show five year history of having license or being self employed that way, that instead of having to use a 24 month average, we'll use a 12 month average, and that may be to their advantage. Let's say that the most recent year filed is in a bit of a decline from the prior year. Let's just use 2022 and 23 let's say 23 is a little bit lower than 22 a 24 month average is not going to be as big a number than if I were to just to be able to take the 12 month average of the most recent year. So if that individual can demonstrate they have five years of being or receiving that kind of income, then instead of being a 24 month average, I get to choose and just do the 12 month average. So that would be one thing about the 1099 that I would say otherwise, yeah, they're just different. I don't know that one is harder than the other. As long as the qualifications are there, they're there.

Keith Weinhold 29:43

When I think about this, I guess it does make sense from the lender perspective. If you're paid and shown income there on your 1099 from sharing economy work, gig economy work, or being self employed, that's more volatile work than having a day job. Um, as an employee.

Caeli Ridge 30:01

Sure, absolutely. And if you can demonstrate that you have that history and you've been able to consistently earn and have those numbers, it's okay, yeah, but without the 24 months, you're not going to get a conventional loan. You're gonna have to look at DSCR or something else.

Keith Weinhold 30:15

We're talking about what it takes to qualify for income property loans today with Ridge lending Group President Caeli Ridge, when we talk about that qualification bar that needs to be met. Caeli, you see so many loan applications in there. You have a team. You look at and deal with so many situations when you're free, you even pick up the phone, sometimes yourself, and you will talk to individual borrowers. So what do you see in there as the top reasons for not qualifying for an income property loan.

Caeli Ridge 30:42

The top reasons for not qualifying for a conventional loan probably is debt to income ratio, yeah, more often than not of the three basic criteria, which are assets, enough cash to close or reserves, credit and then DTI, I would say it's the DTI category that more often than not, is the culprit for qualifying or not. And it may be as simple as how they filed their last year's tax return and saying, Okay, before you file 2024 don't do that until you send Ridge a draft, so that we can get ahead of what you may not have known to look for last time. They could be very simple, little easy fixes. And you know, sometimes maybe it's they don't want to pay the extra taxes, which sometimes that might be required. In which case we say, okay, let's pivot over to the DSCR options. In which case, by the way, just as a quick sidebar, I'm finding that gap is starting to narrow a little bit to the point that it's a lot more affordable in terms of the investment property and what cash flow is expected than it used to be. The differences between a Fannie Freddie rate and a DSCR rate is starting to narrow a little bit. So if you have to be DSCR, I would not shy away from that just because you assume I think it's going to be more reasonable for cash flow properties.

Keith Weinhold 31:52

Yeah, I'll tell you, when I was an employee as a day job worker grinding in my eight by 10 cubicle, as it was back in the day, and I was buying income properties. Yeah, the main thing I would get held up on is that my debt to income ratio, my DTI, was too high, and my salary was pretty strong, although not fantastic, not astronomically high, but I felt like I was a guy that was pretty good, pretty prudent with my finances. And yeah, it didn't feel good to be told hey, Keith, to lower your DTI. You need to pay off your 3% automobile loan that's at a nice fixed interest rate. I didn't want to have to do that, but I was willing to do that to retire the small loan in order to qualify for the big loan.

Caeli Ridge 32:36

That makes sense. I might just offer a comment in that regard. What you may have experienced at that time could have been what we call an overlay in the industry. So, yes, like anything, right? Lenders aren't created equal. Because we're so investor friendly and focused, we are going to go by the purest form of those Fannie Freddie guidelines. It's called a seller's guide. And as an example, let's just say that Fannie Freddie gives you 75% of the subject properties, gross rents, whereas B of A or I'm just picking on B of I don't know why, but some other lender may impose an overlay. It's like layers of risk and saying, No, we're not going to give you any rental income credit whatsoever, even though the guideline says that we can do it, our overlay says, No, we can't. So depending on who you're working with, credit unions are a little notorious for that being a little bit more restrictive in their box of guideline. So it may not always be what you think. So if you've had a lender, tell you DTI wise, you don't qualify, but you feel like this is not quite right. You should double check that, because it may be an overlay.

Keith Weinhold 33:34

Everyone is interested in interest rates. It's been so interesting with what's happened the past few years, ever really, since the covid Emergency cut took place in 2020 and the volatility that we've seen in interest rates, then we saw interest rates max out in this cycle at about 8% almost a year ago. What does this declining interest rate environment mean at a mortgage loan company? And what do you see for the future of rates there?

Caeli Ridge 34:02

Well, rates have been coming down. If you guys are watching the headlines, you're seeing those sound bites. We have started to see some more refinance activity than we were seeing before, certainly additional purchases as we start to see interest rates come down, I am of the opinion that we're going to continue to see some improvement in the rate department, dependent on some of the jobs reports that we'll be getting soon, so we'll see. But My money is on that, we'll continue to see some nice tailwind in the rate department throughout the rest of the year, and who knows what's going to happen? I mean, this is our election year, etc. We'll see how the rest of it plays out.

Keith Weinhold 34:33

How does a prospective borrower get their financial house in order themselves before getting a hold of you and your team there, what are some of those checklist items that they should do themselves at home first?

Caeli Ridge 34:47

like I said a bit ago, so you've got those three primary criteria. If you're wanting to qualify for those conventional full doc loans, think about your credit Do you know what that credit score is? Now, depending on some other variables, it doesn't have to be 800 Credit scores to qualify. I mean, we've got clients as low as 650 that are able to get financing conventionally, because they've got compensating factors, similarly for assets on the investment property side, the down payment and the closing costs and the reserves, none of those things can be borrowed or gifted. And that's very different than if it was an owner occupied, gifted and borrowed funds are okay for an owner occupied, for an investment property, they have to be sourced and seasoned, meaning your own funds over the last 60 days. So think about that. What your down payment is going to be an estimate of closing costs and make sure that you have the appropriate amount of capital. And then finally, that debt to income ratio. That's a slippery or one to try and calculate that for yourselves. But if you think about your minimum payments on your credit report. That's really all that goes into it. Minimum payments, not the debt load. The minimum payments on the credit report divided by the monthly income, gross income, you should be able to come up with a number, and 50% is that threshold. So if you can kind of just take that kind of mental back of the napkin of your own, you should have a pretty good gage on whether or not you think you're going to be in this box, or if getting into the game, or continuing to be in the game, is going to require some alternative loan types.

Keith Weinhold 36:05

Inflation has been such a story for the past three or four years, but some people aren't aware that there's actually been credit score inflation. Last time I checked, the average credit score had been slowly rising in the United States. What's the highest credit score that gets one the lowest rate.

Caeli Ridge 36:22

We're staying in the Fannie Freddie department, 760 and above is all the same bucket, if the individual qualifications are identical, if this one has an 850 credit and this one has a 760 credit, exactly the same in the interest rate department.

Keith Weinhold 36:35

And then, once they've engaged with you, what about locking in their interest rate. What duration did they have prior to closing? Tell us about that timeline.

Caeli Ridge 36:45

So an interest rate can be locked on a 15 day lock, a 30 day lock, a 45 day lock, even a 60 or 90 day lock, typically it's a 30 day lock that's the average. The shorter the period of lock, the better the rate and or points that you would pay. And the longer is the adverse right? The higher the rate of the higher the points. I like to look at locking an interest rate, usually when we get the appraisal back, because an appraisal can be the piece that might delay or there may be some issues. So I generally like to see the appraisal first. We've been in such a volatile area with interest rates and what might be happening in the ups and downs, etc. I've broken that rule quite a few times over the last couple of years, I would say today, floating may be to our advantage, just because we feel like rates are on the run and that they may continue to improve. Keeping in mind, once you lock in your interest rate, it is locked. Ridge does have a policy that if interest rates were to fall five, eight of a percentage point or point 625, you would have a one time automatic float down option. It's highly unlikely, and that's why we can kind of put that in there. But if it happened, we would honor that. Otherwise, when you're locked, you're stuck with that rate. You can't expect that if an eight through a quarter point comes off of or rates come down that much, that you're going to get a different rate. The only way to do that would be to let the existing one expire for 30 days and then relock market, which is not advisable.

Keith Weinhold 37:59

Yeah, you the investor, has to think about how important a lock really is to you in this declining interest rate environment, almost everyone expects mortgage rates to fall more slowly than they rose. They spiked up so fast in 2022 Caeli, how does our audience engage with you? Get Started and go on their path to getting investment property loans.

Caeli Ridge 38:24

Three ways to reach us. Obviously, we've got our website. Please check us out there. There's a lot of good information, ridgelendinggroup.com you can email us at [email protected], and then finally, toll free is 855-747-4343 855-74RIDGE is that easy way to remember, and we'll be here on standby. Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 38:43

Ridge is the same place where I get my income property loans. It's been great having you back on the show. Thank you. Yeah, strong. Well laid out material from cheyley here, as always, let me give us a perspective on creating value by having a good loan rather than not having the debt. Remember that just four weeks ago, here on Episode 516 it was the episode about is every debt worth paying off? And the short answer is no. I got a couple questions from listeners of that episode basically asking the same thing. Well, just say that interest rates are 6% and basically they're asking, well, if I pay all cash for a property or for a car, it doesn't matter what it is, then I avoid paying 6% interest. So right there is my six points of arbitrage. Well, to that, I say, okay, but look what if you think you can achieve a 12% investment return? Borrowing at six to invested 12 is a 6% spread. That's 6% arbitrage as well. But here's the thing, you've got a big advantage of doing this with the loan rather than the paid off condition. This is because. With the loan, you still have the use of your money. You haven't given it away. You still have your money, plus the six points of arbitrage in the paid off condition. You've got six points of arbitrage and you don't have the use of the money any longer. That's the big difference, and that's the value of having a loan, as long as you can service the payments. Getting back to mortgage loans, in today's episode, there are so many loan types for property, conventional, Fannie, Freddie's, dscrs, Portfolio loans, bridge loans, rehab loans, recourse and non recourse loan types, balloon loans, arms and a lot more. Caeli and I didn't discuss their all in one loan, which is like a big, flexible HELOC that you can put on your property. It's such a good product that can help you. You can ask about their all in one loan. When it comes down to what are the factors you need to be most attentive to? They are your assets, reserves, credit, income and debt to income ratio, unless dependent on the loan type that you want. So much attention is paid to interest rates, and some attention is warranted. They surely matter. Be mindful, though, that a quarter of a percent interest rate change on a 30 year loan per 100k borrowed that is just a difference of about $15 in monthly payment, $15 if you go from, say, 6% down to five and three quarters percent, so it takes a rate drop of a full 1% for a savings of about $60 then once you have some of Your finances in order, you can go ahead and do just what I've done for my own properties. For your next income property loan, you can give them a call or start at Ridgelendinggroup.com Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

41:58

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:18

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, getricheducation.com.
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519: Threatening New Taxes You Might Need to Pay. Tom Wheelwright Explains.
16 sep· Get Rich Education
Tom Wheelwright is back by popular demand, our most recurring guest in GRE show history. He’s a CPA, an International Authority on Tax, and Best Selling Author of “Tax-Free Wealth” amongst many other titles. We focus on the potential unrealized capital gains tax, which would tax the increase in property value even before sale. Tom explains the implications of this proposal and the broader impact on tax policy.

We cover the Democrats' proposal for capital gains tax at ordinary income rates, capital gains on gifts, and capital gains when you die.

The proposal for a billionaires tax, which would tax unrealized gains at $100 million, could potentially extend to lower net worth individuals over time.

Real estate income can result in a negative tax rate, increasing cash flow after taxes.

Learn about the benefits of working with a knowledgeable tax advisor.

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Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, this week we're talking about the value of the raw land that comes along with your property, the importance of an as built survey in real estate. Then it's tax topics with pro Tom wheelwright, the specter of an unrealized capital gains tax, higher capital gains tax rates, how gambling is taxed, and how to permanently reduce your overall tax burden. Today on get rich education,

00:33

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:18

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:34

Welcome to GRE from Essex County England to Essex, Massachusetts and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education before we talk taxes, let's talk about the land, the raw land, the lot that comes along with your property. Investors don't spend much time thinking about it. Yet the land is sometimes worth more than the home or structure that's on it, per the FHFA, land constitutes 32.2% of the value of the average US single family property in a metro area. Now the inexpensive land prices nationally, they are predominantly in what I'm classifying it as three US areas, the Midwest, the southeast and Appalachia well, where you have inexpensive land. Oh, that also happens to be where the cash flow for long term rentals resides. Land costs more by the water because people want water activities, water proximity and water view. So the lower costs are inland, and land also costs more by the water, because coasts and shorelines constrain development, sprawl that limits supply and a limited supply of buoys up prices. Consequently, the highest land values are mostly in the Northeast Corridor, from Boston to DC, Miami, coastal California and Honolulu. Yes, Manhattan values are flat out extortionate for raw land now, Seattle, Madison, Wisconsin and Boulder, Colorado. They are three places with really high land values as well. Seattle and Madison are on geographic isthmus. And isthmus is a narrow strip of land with water on both sides. It's interesting how Nashville's nascent population influx made its land values surge inside a cheap sea of southeastern US land values now costly land areas like these ones that I've been talking about on the coasts, they could work well for short term vacation rentals like Airbnb and VRBO, your classic waterfront and beachfront weekly rentals, but they do not work for long term rental cash flow. Texas Land values are sort of low to medium. Land near the Mississippi River and its major tributaries have low costs because rivers are efficient transportation networks, prohibitively high land costs. That's one reason, actually, why alternative building methods just really aren't as cost effective as some people think. I'm talking about things like 3d printed homes, prefabbed homes, tiny homes and shipping container homes, well, all of them have got to sit on land, just like conventionally build homes do. And there is a land cost. Talk to a tear down specialist, and they'll tell you that in some older homes, 100% of the total value is in the l and. And in practicality, it's actually even more lopsided than that. The structure can have negative value because demolition is not free. So for you to get an idea yourself, your property tax bill, it's going to show you your split. That's where you'll see the assessed values broken out for both your structure and the land. So the bottom line here is that cash flowing properties have low land values, typically 25% or less of the total property value. That's generally what you want to look for. And I swear the only thing that's more barren than raw land is the creative naming process for new developments. There is such a lack of creativity in these development names. I'm talking about names like Willow Creek Estates, stone bridge crossing, or what else do they name a new housing development? How about VISTA, view heights? They all have these idyllic sounding names that somehow just all sound like each other. Well, we're talking about raw land when you get in contract to buy a property, the seller side is expected to provide you with an as built, it often still comes in the form of an old fashioned piece of paper and as built survey, what it is is a plan view, a bird's eye or aerial view of your property. It's not a photograph, but a drawing, and it shows you the dimensions and the placement of structures on your property, and it includes things like fences and other features like easements. Now, lenders don't always require an as built before granting a loan, but it's a good idea to ask to see one before you wrap up your next deal. If you want to in your offer, you can even require that a recent as built be done by a surveying company. All right. Well, what exactly do you look for on an as built once you have one in hand, first see that the house or apartment building that you're buying is properly set back from the property lines to meet zoning requirements. If the six foot side setback is only five feet 10 inches, then you'll have to address that before you buy even if it's five feet 11 inches. Now it's possible that the jurisdiction that you're buying in will grant a letter of non conforming status, but if not, the structure is going to have to be adjusted. Another item to look for on an as built are encroachments. This is where part of a neighbor structure protrudes over the lot line and onto your property. And encroachment is really only acceptable if you're willing to grant the neighbor an easement in perpetuity for their encroachment onto your land. But why would you want to do that? The third thing that I want to mention that you should look for an as built is the existence of easements. An easement that just means that another party has a legal right to come over onto your land and use it. Yeah, and easements are actually quite common. It's not as threatening as it might sound. A common one is that as your as built would show, say, a five foot wide by 60 foot long easement. Is there that a utility company has access to. Well, that's something that makes sense. It's for the common good, but just be mindful that an easement cannot have a structure with a permanent foundation built on top of it, alright, because an electric company or a water company might have to excavate there. Most people think of easements on the raw land, but there are also aerial easements, for example, an overhead power line where the roof eaves are not allowed to intrude on that airspace. So to review what you learned so far today, the best cash flow properties typically have low land values, often about 25% or less of the tolerable property value. And an as built survey is an aerial view drawing of your property and its dimensions on an as built look to see that it meets zoning requirements like setbacks and look for encroachments and easements. It is resale properties where it's more important to look at as builts than it is for new construction properties. As we're about to bring in tax pro Tom Wheelwright shortly, business owners and real estate investors really get so many of the best tax breaks in the US Code. But you've got to know. How to find them, or else work then with a CPA that does know how to find them, that really knows how to navigate their way around the tax code, people that make high salaries pay high taxes, as much as 50% you remember I did that episode a few months ago, high salaries don't create wealth. Taxes are one big reason why, say, for example, a chiropractor makes $1.2 million a year in salary. But if that chiropractor becomes an investor by buying and selling other Chiropractic Clinics or investing in real estate, their tax rate will drop by half or more, and that's because capital gains tax rates are about half of ordinary income tax rates. So see, you don't want to be a super earner. You want to earn enough money to invest and become a super owner, but tax policy could change Tom and I will discuss that first. Then we'll talk about reducing the amount of tax that you pay. Today is a new punishing unrealized capital gains tax coming that you will have to pay. What this means is that if you have a $500,000 home, and it rises in value to $550,000 well, you would have to pay tax on your $50,000 of profit, but you haven't sold your home. So this feels so wrong, because you haven't realized any profit at all. This is what unrealized capital gains tax is. And also, where are you going to get the cash to pay the tax on your 50k of profit just because your home rose in value yet you didn't realize it? I mean, might you have to sell your home in order to get the cash to pay the tax. And then what if you though could pay the tax on your unrealized capital gain so you do pay it, but then the following year, the home goes down in value. Well, would you get a refund then? So the unrealized capital gains tax proposal is a mess. Let's learn about it and more. This week's guest is a best selling author, CPA and an international authority on tax. He's brilliant because he actually makes taxes fun, easy and understandable. He's familiar to you because he's the most recurrent guest in show history. Welcome back to GRE Tom Wheelwright.

Tom Wheelwright 12:48

thanks always good to be on your show.

Keith Weinhold 12:50

Tom probably with more than 30 show appearances here now you are 6% of GRE episodes.

Tom Wheelwright 13:00

That's a little scary. But you know, taxes are your single biggest expense, so why not?

Keith Weinhold 13:05

It's appropriate. And yeah, I guess all these appearances are certainly an endorsement of how much you help our audience. It's also a reflection of how tax and legal are not my strong suit. So it really helps to have you here absolutely the all time, assists leader in GRE history then and Tyler. An awful lot of timely tax topics going on that are probably first and foremost in more people's news feeds than they usually are. As we're here during presidential campaign season, the one that it really seems to revolve around the most is this potential tax proposal on unrealized gains. I've been around long enough where I seem to see this proposal come up more often, but it never seems to go anywhere. So first, why don't you tell us what unrealized gains are?

Tom Wheelwright 13:51

it actually goes beyond that. Interestingly enough, what the Democrats are proposing is, first of all, they're proposing capital gains rates at ordinary income rates. So they're proposing doubling the capital gains rate. That's actually as important as anything else. The second thing is, they're proposing capital gains on gifts. So if you give it, if you give your business to your child, you have a capital gains ordinary income rates. They're proposing capital gains when you die. So not only an estate tax, but also a capital gains tax. So then you get taxed twice when you die. So about 80 to 90% of your estate goes to the government when you die. If you're a business owner, as an example, then they're proposing eliminating the 1031 exchange, which would mean that on a trade of real estate, you'd have a capital gains tax at ordinary income rates. Then they're talking about this unrealized capital gains so if you do nothing but build your business or your real estate, the increase in value is subject to capital gains taxes at ordinary income rates. Now you know their proposal is, we have this tax. Tax when you're over $100 million that is not seem to be in the news feeds right now, but that's what it is. They call it the billionaires tax, and they're calling it an alternative minimum tax on billionaires. But clearly, 100 million is not a billion. That's only a 10th of a billion. And the biggest issue, of course, is if you tax unrealized gains at 100 million, soon you're going to tax them at 10 million, then it's going to be 1 million. Because history. That's the history of our tax law. The history of our tax law. Remember, in 1913 when we passed the 16th Amendment, it was passed because it was only a tax on the rich, right? It would never have passed if it was going to be a tax on the average person. And yet it passed. Because great, we're okay taxing somebody else, as long as it's not our tax. We're okay taxing somebody else. That's pretty much what's going on with this unrealized gains tax is, oh, well, it's on somebody else and they have enough money. It's no big deal. Therefore, I'm okay with that, because why shouldn't they pay more tax? That is what this is about. The challenge is, is, as we saw with the income tax, eventually it will reach the average person, or at least the average entrepreneur, real estate investor. Because think also, let's say that you build your wealth in real estate, and then when you retire, you say, Well, look, I don't want to be doing active real estate anymore. I'm going to trade my single family homes or my apartment building. I'm going to trade for a Walgreens a triple net lease, well under their proposal, that would be taxed because, again, no 1031 exchanges over $500,000 so that means that if you accumulate your wealth through business or real estate, you pay a much higher tax rate than if you accumulate your wealth by investing in Wall Street through a 401k because if you invest in Wall Street through a 401K, you only have to pay tax as you pull that out, you're not going to be paying tax on the value. Now that's assuming that they don't tax the increase in value of your 401K, which is also obviously a possibility. Interesting enough people talk a lot about the constitutionality of this. The challenge with that is that we already have taxes unrealized gains. If you're a dealer in stocks, in securities you do mark to market, that is meaning that you're going to pay tax on unrealized gains. And so there is actually precedent for this, and that's the scary thing, is that they could point to that precedent and say, Well, wait a minute, it's just an income tax, it's not a wealth tax, that's what they're going to say. They're going to say it's an income tax, not a wealth tax, because it's on appreciation, and appreciation is income. That's how they're going to go down this road. Will it start at $100 million Absolutely, that's where it will start. Will it then drift down? Who knows? But likely that's the history of our tax system. Yeah. I mean, we've talked before about the phenomenon of the camel getting its nose under the tent. However, in this case, I didn't realize there's already precedent for unrealized gains, in a sense, as potentially, if this is approved for those with $100 million net worth, and in next it's 10 million net worth, $1 million net worth and so on, like you described there, when you talk about capital gains tax rates being stepped up so that they're at ordinary income tax rates. It's actually somewhat of an interesting philosophical discussion, in a way. It sort of makes sense that a person's gains from investment could or should be taxed at the same rate as one's income when they go to their day job. However, why don't we do that by lowering income taxes rather than doubling capital gains? Wait a minute, no, because it's a double tax. Let's say that you're a business owner. Why does your business increase in value? Well, because you're making income, but you're already being taxed on that income. It's called income tax. What we do in this country, which a lot of countries don't do, by the way, is we tax it a second time. We call that a capital gains tax or a dividends tax. We tax it twice now. Now we're going to have that second tax at the same rate of the original tax. So if you think about it, you're being taxed on the same income twice because it's your income that determines your value, so you're being taxed twice. It's really not the same. It's fine if you're invested in the stock market, and that's where your capital gains are. That's a hard one to argue too much, although it does take liquidity out of the market, because the problem with capital gains tax is being taxed over 28% it's about 28% is that you actually lower the contribution to the Treasury because there will be fewer capital gains. There will be so many fewer capital gains that you actually lose money. The Tax Foundation, taxfoundation.org, I'd refer people to, has done lots of studies on this, and it's very clear. Here that high capital gains rates actually reduce the amount of money that comes to the government. So this is purely political. This has nothing to do with let's generate more revenue, one of the challenges so you have to score this, right? So that means that you're scoring what's the revenue that's going to be produced? You have two types of scoring. One is called static scoring. The other is called dynamic scoring. Static scoring means that we're going to look at the capital gains we already have, and we're just going to, if we double the rate, we're going to double the revenue. So that's assuming that we're going to have the same number and amounts of capital gains as we add at the lower rates, right? Dynamic scoring means that we're going to take into account how people behave motivationally when you double the tax rate. Yeah. Well, let me give you an example. So I'm a business owner. My wealth is in my business primarily. Do you think, really, I'm going to sell that business and take the capital gains immediately and be done with it? But if I have a high capital gains rate, I'm going to sell this over 20 years. So I'm actually going to defer my capital gains as long as I can, because I don't want to pay those high capital gains rates. So that means less money to the government. That's what it means. So it actually reduces on a dynamic scoring if you look at truly how people behave and have behaved in the past. So this isn't a new thing, right? We've had high capital gains rates before. It's not like we don't know. It's not like we haven't seen this before. It's that, for whatever reason, politically, they've decided that, wait a minute, the rich are out of favor. We need to tax the rich more. That's a very popular line, and therefore this is a way to do that, even though it by all calculations that are dynamic, it would actually reduce the amount of funds that come to the Treasury.

Keith Weinhold 22:00

That does make sense about the double taxation. Case in point, with an apartment building, if you increase its noi, you have more income than pay tax that if you increase the noi, therefore you've increased the value of the building. Consequently, the capital gains tax that you might have to pay down the road Tom, maybe current capital gains tax are higher than I thought, is the 28% capital gains tax. Number You mentioned, current or proposed. What is that?

Tom Wheelwright 22:24

Well, right now we have a 24% capital gains tax, okay, we have 20% pure capital gains tax, plus we have a 3.8% net investment income tax. Doesn't apply right now if you're a real estate professional, but applies to everybody else under the Harris proposal formally adopted Biden's plan under the Harris proposal, then you would get a actually 39.6% rate, plus 5% net investment income tax, regardless of whether you're your real estate Professional. So that is 44.6% that's the 45% the 28% number I threw out is that's the number the Tax Foundation says is the maximum you can raise it to without losing revenue.

Keith Weinhold 23:11

That puts things into perspective, as real estate investors, for a long time, we've appreciated substantial tax shelters. What are they being the 1031, tax deferred exchange, like you mentioned, that's been around for more than 100 years. Does that have any realistic shot of being shot down? Of course, Trump shot down substantial parts of the 1031 outside of strict real estate investing.

Tom Wheelwright 23:32

He did, and he actually set the precedent for eliminating it. So by doing that, because he eliminated it on everything except real property, right? I mean, actually, and even before that, there was a time, and there's still ways you can do it with paper assets. But it's not a 1031 exchange. So 1031 exchange has it evolved. It's gotten it's shrunk. It keeps shrinking. Even three or four years ago, no realistic possibility of eliminating 1031 exchange. The challenge, of course, is it would have an impact on the liquidity of the market. However, big deals never do 1031 exchange. Ever you don't see big multifamily developments sold in 1031s. The only time you see that happen is when they've used the Delaware statutory trust. And then you've got some of the investors who use it. And some of them who don't, you can do that in the Delaware statutory trust, but the regular developers, I haven't seen a 1031 done by a syndicator in years. So could they eliminate? Yeah, they could.

Keith Weinhold 24:33

yeah, that would be concerning. Are there any other presidential hopeful proposals that have to do with taxes that are germane, and our audience should know about?

Tom Wheelwright 24:41

my heavens. So the Democrats want to raise taxes by $5 trillion they want those taxes to all be on investors. And the reason I say that is because typically, people who make less than $400,000 which is their threshold, are not major investors. Most of their money goes to spending. Money. If you're making under $400,000 you can easily spend $400,000 a year. Oh, yeah, okay, that's not that hard, especially in today's world. It's a transfer from high net worth individuals who invest their money in long term projects like real estate, like energy, like business, and it's going to be a transfer to people who spend the money and they're going to spend it, my prediction is that if the Democrats get their way, we enter into a long term period of stagflation, high unemployment and high inflation. Because if you transfer $5 trillion from people who aren't spending it in the first place to be able who do spend it. You've got $5 trillion of new money going into the marketplace. Now it could depress asset values. So that could be good for investors, okay? Because you don't have as much cash available to the I'll call it the investor class, to go into real estate. If that's the case, then you have $5 trillion less, right? I mean, it's not a huge portion of the market, but it's big enough. If you take $5 trillion out of investment capital, then that would put a downward pressure on asset prices, which would include real estate.

Keith Weinhold 25:29

we're talking about potential changes to the tax code. It's always a germane discussion, because taxes are the biggest expense in your life. We're talking with Tom wheelwright. We come back, we're going to talk about the real estate tax laws as they are now, for example, how your rent income is taxed differently than your job income, and also, what are taxes like on sports, gambling. You're listening to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold 26:45

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Blair Singer 28:29

this is Rich Dad, sales advisor, Blair singer. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold. And above all, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 28:48

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with tax pro Tom wheelwright. He's been talking to us about some of the proposals that presidential candidates have here in a campaign season, and whether these things become true or not. Sometimes it seems like just the fact that they're proposing. They're proposed, or if they get instituted at a small level years down the road, it can blow up into something bigger. So Tom tell us more about some of the proposals that are on the table.

Tom Wheelwright 29:12

So we talked about the democratic proposals, which also include things like a $6,000 tax credit for babies. It also includes an enhanced Child Tax Credit. Also includes some other there's lots of provisions in there, right? So it's a transfer. It's just a transfer of money from one group of people to another group of people. On the Republican side, we haven't talked about that now they want to extend the 2017 act. They've been very clear, that's what they want to do, which is an estimate $4 trillion so the other direction. So basically, you're talking about a $9 trillion swing between the two parties. We've never seen this before, ever in a presidential election. Now, that big of a difference, one major tax increase, one party proposing major. Tax increases, the other proposing major tax decreases in the same election. It's something that I'm glad people are paying attention to, because it's a little overdue in this election cycle. Because really, when you talk about policy, that's probably the biggest policy difference between the two parties.

Keith Weinhold 30:18

Now one thing we've learned over time from talking with you is these presidential wish lists, if you want to call them that. Well, these tax changes are things that require congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress currently. So what do you think the prospects are of really any of these things becoming new law?

Tom Wheelwright 30:36

First of all, remember, most of the 2017 act expires at the end of 2025 so something will have to be done next year. They don't have a choice, either that or is just expires, and then we're back to what we had. We have smaller standard deductions, we have alternative minimum tax again. We get a deduction for state income taxes, right? That comes back the one. We lose our 20% Small Business deduction, the only thing that stays permanent is the corporate income tax rate that was permanent in the original bill. So there is going to be something, you're right, if there is a divided Congress, and I say that if, because if one party sweeps, then, especially on the Democratic side, the Republicans don't seem to be as cohesive as the Democrats are on these things. And if the Democrats sweep, I would say, remember, we don't have Kyrsten Sinema, we don't have Joe Manchin from happening. And so would the Democrats sweep all these through, not all of them, but you're going to see a major tax increase for sure, on the Republican side, would you see the 2017 act extended? You'll probably see it, but you're right that otherwise, if it's a divided Congress, we're going to have something in between. We thought we would get a divided Congress in 2020 though, remember and we didn't. So I would not count on a divided Congress

Keith Weinhold 31:59

erstwhile 2017 Trump tax cuts in JOBS Act brought the highest marginal income tax bracket from 39.6% under Obama down to 37% as I remember it. Some thought Biden would take it back up to 39.6 but he hasn't and it's just stated 37 All right, so if Republicans stayed in power, presumably that 37% would go ahead and carry on. That's what we think about as our w2 income. Tom, why don't we talk about the taxes that actually exist today? I think a lot of real estate investors just don't understand the difference between how your w2 job income is taxed versus your taxes on real estate rent. Can you talk to us about that?

Tom Wheelwright 32:42

The reason it's confusing is because they're both considered ordinary income, right? The difference is, is that one is business income and one is non business income. Your wages are non business income. You don't get deductions against non business income, but you do get deductions against business income. So your rental income is considered business income for purposes of the Internal Revenue Code. What that means is you get deductions for taxes. You get deductions for interest, you get deductions for maintenance, you get deductions for depreciation. That's why, when you have your income from your rentals. Typically taxed much lower than your income from your salary, because you get no deductions against your salary like you do against the rentals.

Keith Weinhold 33:30

Maybe it would help to introduce an example here. I don't know if this will complicate things too much or not. If a real estate investor has, say, a single family rental property with $2,000 of rent, income, $1,000 mortgage, $800 in operating expenses. How is that tax that leaves them with $200 of cash flow?

Tom Wheelwright 33:50

You have $200 of cash flow, but then you probably have depreciation on top of that, which is a non cash deduction. And so let's say your depreciation is $500 that means you actually have a $300 loss that, in many cases, you can use to offset income from your w2 so you actually have a negative tax rate. In other words, you're making money from taxes. So actually, is that an increase to your cash flow? So it's a way to think of it is, I have $200 of cash flow from my tenant, if I have a $300 loss for tax purposes, let's say I'm in a 33% tax bracket. I have $100 of income from the government. So that means my cash flow is really after tax. Cash flow is $300 not $200 whereas if you have the same $200 of income from your wages. Let's say you have just the net, right? Let's start with the net. You have $200 well, you're going to be taxed. And let's say that again, your 33% tax rate, that means you're after tax, right, is going to be roughly $125,000 okay, under $30 so $130 we're. $300 so it's like twice as much. In fact, all of that difference is because of the tax law.

Keith Weinhold 35:06

Gosh, that was a great breakdown. I'm really glad that I introduced that example, $2,000 in rent, minus $1,000 for the mortgage, at $800 in operating expenses, again, leaving you with $200 in cash flow with that example. There's probably more going on here with taxes. Because, of course, with that $1,000 mortgage amount, some is going to be principal, some is going to be interest. In part of that interest can be tax deductible.

Tom Wheelwright 35:31

I'm assuming it's all interest, because if it were not, we'd have a higher taxable income. Remember, your principal payment is not deductible. So in your example, I was assuming that the $1,000 mortgage payment was all interest. If it was only $800 then you'd have $400 of income before depreciation. You don't have $100 loss, because, remember, your principal's not deductible, so therefore you have to add that back into your taxable income.

Keith Weinhold 35:58

Will you talk to us about how to apply depreciation to this income versus expenses. Example, is there anything else you can speak to when it comes to that $800 of operating expenses in this example, and those expenses include things like property insurance, property tax itself, maintenance repairs and utilities.

Tom Wheelwright 36:19

Right but also, for example, you might run your rental real estate business out of a home office in your home so you could have a home office deduction. You might have your use your car for the rental purposes, and then you get a deduction for your car. So there are additional expenses that aren't even in that $800 that you could pick up that would not otherwise you'd never get a deduction, and you're really not spending any more money. You're just using it for business, and therefore getting a business deduction. So it's really all about what do I get to deduct? Remember that if you own a home for yourself, you don't get to really deduct the taxes. You have a limit on how much you can deduct. So taxes are limited in deduction. Mortgage Interest may or may not be limited. Remember also that if you have a mortgage, you're limited to how much a $750,000 mortgage being deductible, whereas if you it's a rental property, it could be a seven and a half million dollar and mortgage, and you still get the deduction, so you're not limited like you are. On top of that, again, it's a business, so let's say that you put solar panels on your personal home, you'd get a 30% tax credit, but you'd get no depreciation deduction. If you put solar panels on your rental house, you get the same 30% tax credit, but now you also get a depreciation deduction of probably another 30 $40,000 in the first year. So there's always more deductions in a business setting than a personal setting.

Keith Weinhold 37:56

Well, real estate has been around a really long time. Often laugh when people talk about non conventional investments and put real estate investing in their real estate's about the most conventional investment that we can possibly think of. It's been around a long time. We think about a newer thing that people do with their money, but I sure don't call it investing. That's sports gambling, and it's something that you and I haven't talked about before. Here Tom in 2018 the Supreme Court opened the way for states to legalize sports gambling, and at last check, 38 states, plus DC and Puerto Rico have legalized at least some form of sports gambling. So now it's a more germane conversation for you and I to have than it was a few years ago. Can you tell us about sports gambling, taxes and how it's treated.

Tom Wheelwright 38:41

So remember, all income is taxable. So that includes gambling winnings. They are taxable. In fact, you'll get a 1099 just like you would if you rendered services, you'd get a 1099 or you have interest income, you get 1099 you get 1099 from gambling. What you actually have to show is that you actually have gambling losses. So you have to track those gambling losses to show the IRS that you got gambling losses. But your gambling losses can never be more than your gambling winnings. You never get to generate a tax loss on gambling. What that means is, is that if you win $10,000 during the year, and you can prove that you lost $8,000 during the year, you're going to be taxed on $2,000 but if you can't prove the 8000 you're going to be taxed on 10,000

Keith Weinhold 39:33

so you the gambler, have the burden of tracking this, and I guess tracking your losses. I'm not a gambler. How would one track their losses?

Tom Wheelwright 39:42

I would keep detail ledger. Personally, I probably have a separate bank account just for gambling. Gosh, I'm not a gambler either, so that's what I would do. I would have a bank account just for gambling, by the way. It's also a good way to budget your gambling so they, you know, get in trouble, right? So just set up a separate bank account. Don't put whatever money you say, I'm comfortable with this money, I'm going to gamble with this money put in that bank account, and then you have a ledger that shows the money that went in and the money you lost, the money you won, and don't do anything but gambling in that bank account.

Keith Weinhold 40:15

Hey, that separate account's a great way to hide it from your spouse, not that I'm suggesting. Not bad.

Tom Wheelwright 40:22

Interesting. You went there.

Keith Weinhold 40:23

I'm not a gambler at all. Can't even believe I was thinking that far ahead. What are the gambling tax rates like?

Tom Wheelwright 40:31

They're ordinary income tax rate. So gambling winnings are just ordinary income. They're the same as your wages. They don't have social security taxes their income, just like any other kind of income, nothing special. And this all applies to whether it's sports gambling or general gambling, like lotteries and sweepstakes? Just remember, all incomes taxable unless the government says it isn't all income, okay? And then there's some types of income that are taxed at special rates, like capital gains, but gambling has no special rates. By the way, gold also has special rate for when you sell gold, it has its own tax rate. Gambling has no special tax rate, so it's just your ordinary income rates.

Keith Weinhold 41:11

To me, it seems like it's hard to break even with gambling over time, and then when you take the tax adjusted earnings that you get from it, you know, over the long term. I just don't think Harris and Bally's Casino is really incentivized to inform gamblers on how punitive this can be with ordinary income tax rates applied to gambling winnings.

Tom Wheelwright 41:30

No, but they will send you your 10909g I guarantee that, that's for sure.

Keith Weinhold 41:34

Well, Tom has helped business owners and real estate investors permanently reduce their taxes. He does it like virtually no one else in the world does by keeping it simple, by helping you find deductions that other CPAs can't do. You can learn more about how Tom and his team can actually help you. You can get a free consultation. You can do that at getricheducation.com/tax. And Tom tell us more about the importance of a business owner or a real estate investor or anybody else really being connected with the right kind of tax professional that can permanently reduce your taxes.

Tom Wheelwright 42:12

So remember that if you want to change your tax, you have to change your facts. It's that simple. What you have to do is you need to know what facts you need to change. That's where a good tax advisor comes in. Is what facts do you need to change in order to change your tax now good news is, wrote tax through wealth. So you got an idea of what that is, but the tax law is very detailed. You must dot your i's cross your t's, so to speak, so that you make sure that you meet all of the rules, such as documentation, for example, for your business expenses. When you do that, you're going to get a better tax result, especially if your tax advisor is also preparing your tax return. Because really, your tax return is just part just how you implement your tax strategy, right? That's how you do it. So we launched, just recently, a franchise of tax advisors, and now we actually have much, really good control, quality control with our tax advisors, and they use our software system. It's very important that you have somebody, if not us, find somebody who you know you can actually give tax free wealth too, and say what cares make sure that we're doing it this way. But if the easy button is really the getricheducation.com/tax.

Keith Weinhold 43:27

Tom Wheelwright, It's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Tom Wheelwright 43:33

Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 43:40

Yeah, key insights from Tom as always, taxes are complicated. Tom's Network helps sort it out for you. We've already covered a lot of ground on this week's episode with raw land values as built, proposed tax plans and how to reduce your tax burden within the existing tax system. Tom and I talked, and he will be back yet again with us later this year for more tax wizardry. Now, just recently here, Kamala Harris proposed a smaller capital gains tax hike than Biden. She's starting to put sort of her own policy spin on things, breaking with the President on the size of a proposed increase on the capital gains tax rate that is a 28% top tax rate when investments are sold for those that make a million dollars plus. So that's more than the current 23.8% top rate, but less than the 39.6% rate that Biden had supported all income is taxable. Therefore it is axiomatic that the fastest way to increase your ROI is to work with a tax advisor that can find you all of the biggest deductions right away. You can read Tom's book Tax Free Wealth, get a good system of documentation going and get connected with Tom's team. At the end of an episode at times, I like to leave you with the most actionable resource on the topic that we covered. You can schedule a free call to see how Tom's team can help you out. At getricheducation.com/tax. That's getricheducation.com/tax. Until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

45:33

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 46:01

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.
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518: Is Now the Best Time to Buy Real Estate?
9 sep· Get Rich Education
A prominent Florida Builder and #1 Wall Street Journal Best-Selling Author joins us to discuss the benefits of build-to-rent properties, including affordable housing and attractive mortgage rates.

He has already done all the work for investors, offering new build income properties that are sometimes rented.

We discuss the importance of median value and affordability index in choosing profitable areas for long-term real estate investments.

Learn about new build income properties with rate buydowns as low as 3.75%.

Important market dynamics and investor strategies, including the trade-offs between cash flow and equity growth.

Show Notes:

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GREmarketplace.com

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, a great way to forecast the future of the real estate market is to look at the level of new building. I've got a surprise to reveal there then a focus on one of the hottest in migration states. That's popular because it promises cash flow for real estate investors today on Get Rich Education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful Get Rich Education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads in 188 world nations. He has a list show guest top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich Education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the Get Rich Education podcast. Sign up now for the Get Rich Education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

Welcome to GRE from Plains Georgia to White Plains New York and across 188 nations worldwide, you are listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we are an educational platform. And if you haven't yet, I really suggest that you spend 100 hours learning how to invest in real estate. The average person works 2000 hours a year for 40 years. That's 80,000 hours of working for money. I implore you to spend 100 hours learning how to keep it and grow it and leverage it and create income and tax advantages from it. 80,000 hours of lifetime work, 100 hours learning real estate investing. Now, when someone like a presidential candidate produces, still vague talk about building 3 million starter homes in four years. That actually appears just about impossible. Within the existing structure. We would need 2 million housing starts per year from 2025 to 2028, in order to overcome our existing shortfall. And we haven't exceeded 1.8 million in any year in the moderate era, and that's even when demand was extraordinary and interest rates were low. Just you know, look at the reality of what home builders need to actually do, and this is even if they don't have any excessive not in my backyard. Pushback, builders have to procure land, meaning they need to lay out cash far before building, and then they need to jump through zoning and building hoops in counties and cities, in towns, in communities, and sometimes those hoops can reach preposterous levels with substantial delays. Builders need to secure financing, and for most, interest rates are still in the 9% plus range. And then builders need to acquire a whole local network of contractors and subcontractors, and then they need to keep those contractors and subcontractors busy, or else they're gonna lose those workers. So builders have to work to maintain their teams once they found them. And if that's not enough, this is all amidst a historically bad skilled labor shortage, meaning those workers can be enticed to go work for somebody else. As you know, skilled worker demand far exceeds skilled worker supply. So for builders, it takes years of planning and development. In a lot of cases, they sit on land for many years before the market conditions are right for the actual build. Well, look, at least there is finally acknowledgement among our highest elected officials that we do need to address the core problem, but our elected officials proposals aren't really so good, and our country's housing problem is largely a regulatory issue. Later today, we'll talk to a builder that's already done all of this for you, so it's not preconstruction that has new build income properties complete, available sometimes even rented already, and they help you buy down your mortgage rate to a level that's really low. You'll soon learn about it. But first, let's talk more about adding new housing supply in the larger apartment segment. It's something that can help you see the future here, but it isn't getting enough tension outside of multifamily industry circles, and that is the fact that apartment starts are plummeting to 11 year lows. And this is a real surprise to some people, multifamily completions are outpacing starts by the widest margin since 1975 and I mention this because, you know, you probably keep hearing and reading about how apartment construction is at all time highs, but really, that is a story from two years ago. It takes about two years to go from an apartment construction start to a completion. Well, today we're seeing that huge surge of apartment starts two years ago morph into completions. That's the piece to be aware of here. And to give you some idea about the new apartment building, slow down through July, we have completed 314,000 multifamily units, and we started just 193,000 units. That's all according to census stats that year to date. Start total is the nation's lowest since 2013 when we were just building our way out of the global financial crisis. Also a larger share of apartment supply. In this next cycle, it's likely to be affordable housing, because that's where the tax incentives are in the last wave of apartment construction a few years ago, it was more higher end stuff, and the result is today, apartments are oversupplied in a lot of markets, leading to falling apartment rents, or just somewhat stable and frozen apartment rents in heavily overbuilt places like Austin, Texas and a lot of others. But this slowdown in New Starts of larger apartments is why some have bullishness on the multifamily outlook for 2026 and beyond supply is the biggest headwind for apartment investors today. While it is an enormous tailwind for renters, it's good for them, but those dynamics appear likely to shift again. It took an almost perfect storm of variables to push apartment construction to 50 year highs, and it's difficult to see a scenario where construction could re-accelerate back to those peaks. Today's apartment completion levels could mark a high. It's generational. You may never see it again. So to summarize, in the world of large apartments, supply is still up, even outpacing demand in a lot of markets. It all came from a big building wave that began when interest rates were low two years ago. They're mostly upper end places. Apartment syndicators also got hit with higher rates that reset on them, and you've seen the value of some apartment buildings fall 30%. It is bad. But long term, I expect that apartments are going to be fine. New lease ups are absorbing what's out there. The demographics show that renters will continue occupying apartments. Interest rates have already fallen and they're expected to keep falling, and you don't have very many new apartment starts, it's that last piece that a lot of people aren't aware of. So that's the forecast over the next few years for five plus unit apartments. When it comes to the market dynamics for one to four unit properties. I'm going to discuss this with one of the voices of GRE marketplace today. They are a build to rent provider building new construction, single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes for tenants that they sell to investors. Hey, I'd like to welcome in a home builder and property provider serving Florida, basically statewide, known as North America's leading build to rent property developer, and he believes in what he builds and offers others, because he's been a real estate investor himself for more than two decades. Hey, Jim, welcome back onto the show.

Jim Sheils 09:45

Keith, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 09:47

Jim, we have a lot of exciting things to talk about. What you're doing in Florida. You've really helped out a lot of our investors and followers so far. You have some really interesting things to tell us about. Rate buydowns and just how low those rate buydowns are on some new build properties. And I sure want to get to that. But first, why don't we just pull back big picture, and from the 30,000 foot national view, before we talk about Florida, what are some of the important dynamics you see in the real estate market here in late 2024

Jim Sheils 10:16

Yeah, it's been interesting. The media is always late to the party, as you know, Keith, I've seen some interesting stats. You know, affordability nationwide has gone from 480,000 about eight months ago, and now it's down to about 405, so we've already seen the affordability index come down nationwide, and it's hit really well here in Florida. One of the reasons why is there's definitely been some price adjustments on higher priced property in Maine markets, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, areas that we don't build because the numbers didn't work. So that's been really good to see that affordability also, rates are just starting to drop. But here's an interesting thing. A year ago, Keith, the average mortgage payment for the average person buying a home, was 57% of their total income. Now that has dropped to about 44% of their total income. So I'm always looking at affordability and overall median pricing, and that's been a really, really good thing for us. As I had said, second tier markets where you can get affordability, but also great amenities, great lifestyle is where we've always focused on building, and it seems like that is really continuing to have a solid pulse. I love visiting some of those bigger markets, you know, taking my kids to Disney, but I'm glad we stayed out of there, because it seemed a little more temperamental, and we're glad we're in the more second tier markets.

Keith Weinhold 11:39

You cited an affordability index there earlier. Now, affordability still, historically, is not that good, but it's not as bad as it used to be. Tell us more about that index.

Jim Sheils 11:49

Yeah, I always have looked at, you know, the affordability index. Let's just use an example, Orange County, California. I think the median value of a home there is $1.1 million. In Jacksonville it's 305, and so you get a score for based on what is the average family income per price of the home. And it's kind of like your report card. And there's certain areas that have an A, and there's certain areas that have an F. You know, we have lots of investors come to us with you guys too, from New York or Seattle or Orange County. And this is something I look at, what is the affordability index, and just know how they figure out the score on your affordability index. What's the average price of the home in that area, and what is the average family income for that area? And the correlation of those two numbers shows whether you have a good score or bad score.

Keith Weinhold 12:39

And now that we've looked at the national picture somewhat, you mentioned some of the major metro markets in Florida, some of which you specifically stay out of, and that's simply because the numbers don't work for long term rentals. They don't provide cash flow. Tell us more, just in general, about some of the areas that you've chosen and why is there profitable for long term real estate investors?

Jim Sheils 13:03

Yeah, this median value, this affordability index, is so key when we're able to get into home still, you know, Jacksonville is barely over 300,000 as the media now, we're able to cash flow right off the bat. So like Jacksonville is still as the population growth, the economic growth is occurring. It's desirable coastal community, and supply and demand is in our favor. We don't have enough housing, so that's where we focus all of those factors, not only here, but on a smaller scale, in Palm Coast, in Ocala, where we've done a ton with the GRE community. And then southwest Florida. We don't go to Southeast Florida, too expensive, too overbuilt, too high on insurance, but that Greater Fort Myers area, which did experience the highest growth anywhere in the country during the pandemic, which was interesting to watch, we're still seeing a lot of good fundamentals down there. And again, at that affordable range, it makes a big difference when you're buying at a medium priced home is, let's say 320,000 opposed to 580,000 makes a huge difference to whether it will cash flow off the bat or have a negative cash flow. And as you know, Keith, even though we're doing new construction high growth areas, we want to see app cash flow right away.

Keith Weinhold 14:13

Now, you are a builder, you are adding much needed inventory to the national housing supply, where we've had a shortage of millions of units per years, depending on what source you cite in quote there, a lot of the estimates as to the housing shortage really are all over the place. But many sources state that Florida inventory levels just statewide. Here they are back about to pre pandemic levels. So they have recovered. They are back to about 2019 levels. And I think one important thing for people to remember is, well, 2019 was a pretty good, balanced housing market.

Jim Sheils 14:50

It was a normal market. We liked 2019 you know, that was a good market. There was growth, but it was sustainable, more predictable, steady. So I'm happy to be back in 2019. You know, 2020 21 levels there were, there was less than a month's worth of inventory on the MLS that it was dire. Yeah, it was just such a skewed thing. And you've studied this for a long time. So everyone if you say, Oh well, it went from this to this. I love how you talk about 2019 because by all statistics that was a very normal market here in Florida. So we're happy to get back to that, because you have to have a certain amount of inventory level to balance the playing field. We want to see growth, but I'm more of a long term player, as you know, we don't need to see huge spikes, because that can get a little volatile.

Keith Weinhold 15:36

Now, as a builder, talk to us about builder sentiment since, like we talked about before, we are in a falling interest rate environment, mortgage rates are already down about one and a half percent from the recent highs, and the Fed hasn't even begun lowering rates yet. So talk to us more about what those lower rates do to build their sentiment. And we're not just talking about rates for buyers here, which matter, but it's the rate that builders like you that have to pay the typically factory in here too.

Jim Sheils 16:06

Yeah, it's an interesting market right now, Keith, and here's something I want to give great encouragement from as you know, we do build some for the institutions and the larger groups. The little guy, the small investor, has the guerrilla warfare advantage over them right now, because, as you know, we right now have announced financing. We're able to have this builder forward commitment where we're buying large tranches of money for residential mortgages. That means, you know, individuals like we work with all the time, Keith, that buy a few properties, we can get them this incredible financing right now, at 3.75 we're beating the market. You know, you go into a B of A and try to get a duplex finance, you're probably looking at six and three quarters. And we're able to do that because it's residential real estate. Some of our bigger guys, they would buy all of our inventory. But we can't get a institution qualified for these individual investor loans for residential real estate. They have to go to the commercial world. And as you know right now, Keith, the commercial world is screwy. People aren't lending. The rates are really high, and even these big guys have to sharpen their pencils and do their numbers and they go, Gosh, it's not panning out until rates drop. So that means these bigger groups are on the sidelines. And we all hear the complaints, all the big guys are buying all the properties they own 40% well, they're on the sidelines, and our little troopers and investors are building their portfolios in ways they cannot so it's exciting to see now for us too. What's lucky and unlucky is a lot of good builders out there that we're friends with. They can't get financing. The banks have gotten so stringent. So they might even have a good balance sheet and a good track record, but the banks are getting really stringent where Chris and I are. As you know, we were partially acquired by Sumitomo forestry about a year and a half ago. They're a 331 year old company, and when we decided to team up with them, they said, We love Florida and we love build to rent, go, and so now we have zero bank debt, and they've given us a green light to build out all of our inventory. We have five, over 5000 lots in Florida, and we don't have the bank slowdowns. So to find a good builder, you have to make sure they have financing in place, because they're going to be a great builder out there that just can't get the funding to do the job for you. So that's another thing you want to look for.

Keith Weinhold 18:16

Right. And last time I checked, you've got more than 925 current independent income property investors, many of those whom are GRE listeners. Well, we're going to talk more about just how low those rates are. Who participates in the buy down? I already know that most of it's the builder, and just part of it is you, the investor. You're listening to get residuation. We're talking about Florida, build to rent property more when we come back, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their. Investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.

Garrett Sutton 20:28

This is Rich Dad advisor, Garret Sutton, to grow your wealth. Listen to the always valuable. Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 20:45

Welcome back to Get Rich Education we're talking about half of progress real estate investing in high growth Florida, with a renowned build to rent provider there. And I think a lot of this really comes down to trust with the fluctuating interest rate environment that we've had, some people don't trust certain builders or that investor to go ahead and put down a deposit on a vacant lot and wait 12 months or more for it to be built. But we're not talking about pre construction here.

Jim Sheils 21:16

No, no. Since we steamed up with Sumitomo, you know a lot of good builders again, they can't even start the project until they have a a buyer with a deposit down. That's the requirement for the bank to give them the money to start building. We don't have bank requirements, so we're building on our own dime, and so we are having properties completed before you even have to make an offer on them. So these are finished properties, sometimes a tenant already in place. I know just this month, there's been a few GRE people very happily stepping into pre rented homes. So you don't have to wait that period. If you're ready to move your money or have a 1031 exchange, we can fulfill those no problem, and close within 30 days Our in house financing, Keith, which I know we're about to go over, I want to make sure people know this is for not only our single families, but our duplexes and our quads as well.

Keith Weinhold 22:02

Tell us more about that in house financing that's something of great interest to people, and especially with these mortgage rate buyouts.

Jim Sheils 22:09

Yeah, everyone says, Oh, I wish I had locked into a mortgage before June of 2022 right? I mean, for every time we heard that, Keith, well, now you can and what we're able to do since we have the balance sheet we have now, with teaming up with this bigger company, banks will allow us to do what's called a builder forward commitment and buy large tranches of money. We're in the money buying business, I guess, now, and we have to commit to large amounts of money, but by doing that, we're able to pay fees upfront to buy down the mortgages. So right now, our most popular rate is 3.75. You as the buyer, and these are called discount points, which I've heard Keith talk about. You're bringing in a little under two discount points to get the 3.75 rate. And you say, Okay, well, Jim, we're bringing in a little less than two points. What are you bringing in? We're not really supposed to talk about that, but here's what I can tell you, do this test, go to one of your mortgage friends, or your B of A or Wells Fargo, and ask it what it will take for you to pay to buy down a rate for 3.75. Now, first of all, they will not allow you to do that much. We are on a more high volume schedule that will allow us to do that, but let's say, if they would, here's what the feedback we've got. If you were to try to do this on your own, Keith, you or I just walking into our bank, you would have to pay anywhere from 12 to 15 points to make this happen. Gosh, and that was the advantage of working as a collective group like we do together, you and I in our investor community, because now that we're able to do volume, it benefits us

Keith Weinhold 23:39

all. No one really knows where interest rates are going to go. I think it's pretty foolish to try to predict them, but very few people think they're ever going to drop to the levels that we saw during the depths of the pandemic, 3.75% if you get locked in there, it's pretty unlikely that the future market is going to meet that down the road at all and tell us more about that product type, the single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes that this is available on. And of course, they're all new build.

Jim Sheils 24:09

Yeah, we do a combination of new build on all of these. We found, Keith, a lot of build to rent. Companies really only focused on the single family home, but we found, you know, to increase rental yield and overall returns. There was really a lack in the market for duplexes in residential areas and quads, again, and those are close to commercial deals, without the commercial financing, they allow more affordable rent in more residential areas that people can afford and want to be in. And we found through the pandemic, these had a greater calling to them than, let's say, a large apartment complex. You know, people want to be a little more spread out, have their own yard, like in a duplex, and they get that there, but they get it at a fraction of the price that a complete single family home would be at. So we found, as you know, most of our investors, our average client, buys three to eight properties with us, and no surprise, they. Buy a mixture of single family duplex and quads. I know we agree on this. Keith, the single family home has had the best history of all of great equity appreciation, and the duplex might lag behind that a little bit, but it's got a better cash flow. So I will always do little trade offs and combo my own portfolio to make up for two of those. And that's what our counselors usually coach our people. I know yours do as well.

Keith Weinhold 25:23

Yeah, the economies of scale for the real estate investor really can be there long term with duplexes and fourplexes, and you're really helping fill a need. Some months ago, I talked about the mmm multi families, missing middle, about how so few duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes are being built today, as compared to when you had about three times as much construction in those property types that you did in the 1980s a lot of that's really gone away. You're really bringing it back. We talk about some of the areas where these are built. You know, Jim years ago? Well, really about 10 years ago, when I began this show, I was often talking about how I want to be invested in Metro statistical areas that have a population of at least 500,000 to 1 million people, in order to get a diversity of economic situations there, because you do need rent paying tenants. But so much has changed since then, starting four to five years ago, with the work from home movement, I'm more open to more outlying areas than I had been previously. So tell us about some of these areas that you choose to build in. In Florida.

Jim Sheils 26:29

yeah, you know our hub market where we started doing rehabs many, many, many years ago was Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, and we still are headquartered here, but Jacksonville, again, is the most affordable coastal city, I believe, still on the East Coast, which brings great fundamentals. It hits both of your things, Keith, where it is larger, but it has more of a sprawl and that larger population and the fundamentals look really well again, that overall median price is still very low. And we branch down to Palm Coast, which is a little more of a higher end area, but a bedroom community, to Jacksonville, the silent soldier, the one that really surprised us the most. I think you remember, this was Ocala. In fact, when Christopher said, Do you want to go start building Ocala, and this is about a decade ago, I said, Wow, Ocala, isn't there only, like, some horses out there? Yeah, now he's a horse guy. So he laughed, and he said, Oh, sure enough, I put my foot in my mouth. But Ocala, the amount of growth that we've seen out there has been incredible. And Ocala is really well placed because it's just below Gainesville, where the, you know, there's the medical centers, the university, and it's just north of the villages, which is the second largest retirement community and growing. Not only that, it has its own economic infrastructure, but it's really well placed in the difference of a price of a home for a starter family in Ocala compared to like Northern Tampa. There is no comparison. You're talking half. So we like that. And also with rents, it's got a great lifestyle. And then southwest Florida again, Southwest Florida, Keith, we're very lucky that we took some risk there. A lot of builders would like to be building down there, but as you remember, we took some big risks in 2020 we talked to some of our friends and said, this can be really good or really bad for real estate. We went with the really good and we loaded up on, well, a lot, over $20 million worth of land at the pre jump prices. Now we're into land right down there so we can get them built right for you guys still make a margin for ourselves that other people that they're trying to get land today, they just can't do and Southwest Florida has been a really good market for us. Had that hurricane there a few years ago, and all of our new construction properties did well. In fact, of almost 300 properties that were under construction, we had four that needed insurance claims, and those four, Keith, well, we had just put up the freestanding walls. We hadn't been able to tie the roof on before the winds and the winds knocked the walls over, and that's it. But there was no flooding, and that's why you get an insurance break. And all the markets that we're in, we always hear, Oh, you can't get insurance in Florida. And I kind of giggle and say, on which properties? Because there is a very different treatment for a new construction property built 2004 or newer, compared to a property built 1957 on lower ground.

Keith Weinhold 29:02

Yeah this is such an important thing to bring up. Property insurance premiums have been hiked substantially on Florida, existing, older build properties, not the post 2004 ones like Jim is talking about here and yeah, for those that don't know, Ocala, there in Central Florida is known as an equestrian area for horses and your business partner, Chris, that's his big hobby. So yeah, when you first went there, you were with Chris. You were like, are you just trying to get there because you want to be around horses more and what? But now there's actually a good fundamental reason for this, where it makes sense to build there. Well, Jim, why don't you talk about how you've specifically helped one of our listeners, or the typical buyer there in how that process looks, including an approximate timeline to get them from the time where they submit an offer all the way through to closing.

Jim Sheils 29:52

Yeah. Well, you know, our team and your team work together. We want to make sure we set people's goals and expectations. Up front. What are you looking for? What are you trying to get into? If someone says to me, Look, I'm looking to get into a great starter home with the lowest basis and highest cash flow, I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Ocala. They say, Look, we're looking more long term. I'm more of an equity growth player. Yeah, I want cash flow. I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Palm Coast, or southwest Florida. Together with our teams and our property counselors, we try to assess what are your needs and where are you wanting to go. Now, all of our vehicles will get through there, but some a little better than others, depending on the plan you want to put together. And so once we do do that, what we like to do is go through properties that seem to match what they're most wanting. We'll go through the performance. We'll look up the site maps, we'll go through the different fundamentals of that direct area, and then, if it seems to make sense, first thing we got to do is get you pre qualified with our in house lender. All is that a go? Well, then we can make an offer, get it in. We have a whole onboarding process. You know that we've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time, and now we're over. I know I laugh because we talked recently and you said, I think you're at a 925. Investors, we're over 1000 now, so we're continuing to grow. But again, we've tried to make it fluid, where our people are part of the process, but never alone. We answer the questions on the financing help get you the directionals on the insurance now, you can use whatever insurance company you want. 99% of them use the company that we recommend. We have no financial affiliation with them. But everyone asked years ago when Chris and I started this, well, who do you use for insurance? Who do you use? So we just gave them who we used, and this person usually undercuts and better coverage than most. So all those pieces Keith with going through that and again, this is about a 30 day process of getting qualified, once you pick the property, submitting the contract with your 10% deposit, doing your onboarding for Property Management and Insurance pieces. And then, obviously you don't have to come here to see us for closing. We do all of our traveling closings for you. And most important thing I like to set up with PM is, where do you want the money wired?

Keith Weinhold 31:59

That's a great question. Well, yeah, I mean, this is a great answer for so many of our listeners, those super attractive rate buy downs. And then the big thing is, is, in many cases, you're not waiting and waiting and waiting months for the build to take place. Well, Jim, before I tell our listeners how they can connect with you over there, do you have any last thoughts overall with anything that we did touch on or did not.

Jim Sheils 32:22

I want to encourage people, if they're not looking to get in the next to real estate in the next two to three years, not a big deal. But if you're looking to get in sometime over the next year, then I would really look at what's happening, things you talk about with the rates and the interest, because I do believe that institutional money within the next six months, it'll be interesting when we reconnect, Keith, that are going to start coming in and buying up more residential real estate. However, their hands are tied right now. They cannot get the financing that the smaller guy can. So whether it's with us or someone else, take advantage. Take advantage. David and Goliath, this is a great opportunity where the big guys cannot keep up with you, because they can't get the financing and insurance rates that you can so take advantage.

Keith Weinhold 33:03

Well, I specifically wanted to have you on today because it is an opportunistic time. They serve Florida with new builds. Learn more about their properties and even get some under contract. If you so wish, you can do so by contacting your GRE investment coach. If you don't have one yet, you can do so at GREmarketplace.com it is free or at GREmarketplace.com/florida. Jim, it's been great having you back on the show.

Jim Sheils 33:32

Thanks having me. Keith, good seeing you.

Keith Weinhold 33:39

Yeah, an excellent update on Florida build to rent properties. A lot of our listeners are asking about these new build properties with 3.75% mortgage interest rates, and you are not the majority participant in the rate buy down either. Next week, who I consider the foremost tax authority in the entire world will be back here with us. Tom Wheelwright is going to discuss presidential candidates, tax plans, whether you should be scared about a tax on unrealized gains and a lot more. Also on a future episode, I'm going to talk about the land that is the vacant land that comes along with your rental property, what to look out for and what to avoid. It's really a little discussed subject that we haven't talked about here before. To learn more about Florida, build to rent property with those attractive rate buydowns, start at GRE marketplace.com Until next week, every host, Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

34:45

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have. Potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 35:13

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Getricheducation.com
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517: The Future of Homebuilding with George Gilder
2 sep· Get Rich Education
Futurist, Technologist and Author of many titles including the classic “Wealth and Poverty”, George Gilder joins us to discuss supply side economics and the transformative potential of using graphene material in various industries including real estate.

We discuss economic growth measured by time prices, showing that private sector progress is faster than GDP estimates.

Learn about graphene's properties, including its strength and conductivity, and its potential to transform various industries.

Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper and the world’s thinnest material.

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getgilder.com

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. I'm talking about the various economic scare tactics out there, like the BRICS, the FDIC and the housing crash. What lower interest rates mean? How our nation's $35 trillion debt has gone galactic. Then today's guest is a legend. He's a technologist and futurist. It tells us about today's promise of graphene in real estate all today on get rich education. when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:40

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:56

Welcome to GRE from Dunedin, Florida to Dunedin, New Zealand and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education, where real estate investing is our major. That's what we're here for, with minors in real estate economics and wealth mindset. You know, as a consumer of this media type as you are, it's remarkable how often you've probably encountered these de facto scare tactics, like the BRICS are uniting and it will take out the dollar and it's just going to be chaos in the United States. You might know that BRICS, B, R, I, C, S is the acronym for Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. Do you know how hard it is to get off the petro dollar and how hard it is for the BRICS, which is basically more than just those five countries, it's dozens of countries. How hard it is for them to agree on anything with things as various as their different economies, and they'll have different customs and currencies. I mean, sheesh, just for you to get yourself and three friends all to agree to meet at the same coffee shop at the same time, takes, like a Herculean effort, plus a stroke of luck, and all full of you are like minded, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the dollar hyper inflating to worthlessness, although it should slowly debase. What about the scare tactic of the FDIC is going to implode, and this could lead to bank closures and widespread societal panic. Well, the FDIC, which stands for Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, they're the body that backs all of the US bank deposits, including yours, and it's steered by their systemic resolution Advisory Committee. Well, there are $9 trillion in bank deposits, and is backed by only a few 100 billion in FDIC cash, so there aren't nearly enough dollars to back the deposits. So can you trust your money in the bank? That's a prevalence scare tactic, but my gosh, if nothing else, history has shown that the government will step in to backstop almost any crisis, especially a banking related one, where one failure can have a cascading effect and make other institutions fall. I'm not saying that this is right, but time has proven that the government does and will step in, or the common scare tactic in our core of the world that is the eminent housing price crash. And I define a crash as a loss in value of 20% or more. Do you know how difficult this would be to do anytime soon? Housing demand still outstrips supply. Today's homeowners have loads of protective equity, an all time high of about 300k so they're not walking away from their homes. Inflation has baked higher replacement costs into the real estate cake, and now mortgage rates have fallen one and a half percent from this cycle's highs, and they are poised to fall further, so a housing price crash is super unlikely, and a new scare tactic for media attention seems to be this proposal by a future presidential hopeful about a tax on unrealized gains. Now Tom wheelwright is the tax expert. He's returning to the show with us again soon here, so maybe I'll ask him about it. But a tax on unrealized gains is politically pretty unpopular. It would be a mess to impose, and a lot of others have proposed it in the past as well, and it has not gone anywhere. Plus tax changes need congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress, there's a small chance that attacks on unrealized gains could come to fruition, but it would be tough. It's probably in the category of just another media scare tactic, much like the BRICS and the shaky FDIC banking structure had a housing price crash. I like to keep you informed about these things, and at times we do have guests with a disparate opinion from mine on these things. Good to get a diversity of opinions, but it's best not to go too deep into these scare tactics that are really unlikely to happen any time soon. Well, there was a party going on 10 days ago at what all affectionately dub club fed in Jacksonhole Wyoming, I don't know what the club fed cover charge was, but fortunately, we did not have to watch Janet "Grandma" Yellen dance at Club fed and and share. Jerome Powell, yes, he finally caught a rate cut buzz. He announced that the time has come for interest rate cuts, and as usual, he didn't offer specifics. Total rager. what a party. later this month, he's going to render the long awaited decision, which now seems to be, how much will cut rates by a quarter point or a half point? Did you know that it's been four and a half years since the Fed lowered rates? Yeah, that was March of 2020, at the start of the pandemic. And then we know what happened back in 2022 and 2023 they hiked rates so much that they needed trail mix, a sleeping bag and some Mountain House freeze dried meals to go along with their steady hiking cycle. Interest rates now, though have been untouched for over a year, it's been an interesting year for the Fed and rates many erroneously thought there would be six or more rate cuts this year. And what about Maganomics? Trump recently said that if he becomes president, he should be able to weigh in on fed decisions that would depart from a long time tradition of Fed independence from executive influence. Historically, they've been separated.

Donald Trump 08:26

The Federal Reserve's a very interesting thing, and it's sort of gotten it wrong a lot. And he's tending to be a little bit later on things. He gets a little bit too early and a little bit too late. And, you know, that's very largely a it's a gut feeling. I believe it's really a gut feeling. And I used to have it out with him. I had it out with him a couple of times, very strongly. I fought him very hard. And, you know, we get along fine. We get along fine. But I feel that, I feel the president should have at least say in there. Yeah, I feel that strongly. I think that, in my case, I made a lot of money. Iwas very successful, and I think I have a better instinct than in many cases, people that would be on the Federal Reserve or the chairman.

Keith Weinhold 09:10

Those Trump remarks were just a few weeks ago, and then shortly afterward, he seemed to walk those comments back, but he did say that he would not reappoint. DJ J-pal, to the economic turntables. It's a long standing economic argument as well about whether an outside force like the Fed should set interest rates at all, which is the price of money, rather than allowing the rate to float with the free market as lenders and borrowers negotiate with each other. I mean, no one's out there setting the price of oil or refrigerators or grapes, but it is pretty remarkable that the Fed has signaled that rate cuts are eminent when inflation is still 2.9% well above their 2% target. But let's be mindful about the Fed's twofold mission, what they call their dual mandate. It is stable prices and maximum employment. Well, the Fed's concern is that second one, it's that the labor market has slowed and see the way it works is pretty simple. Lower interest rates boost employment because it's cheaper for businesses to borrow money that encourages them to expand and hire, which is exactly how lower interest rates help the labor market. That's how more people get hired, and this matters because you need a tenant that can pay the rent. So the bottom line here is to expect lower interest rates on savings accounts, HELOCs, credit cards and automobile loans. What this means to real estate investors is that lower mortgage rates are eminent, although the change should be slow. Two years ago, mortgage rates rose faster than they're going to fall. Now, one thing that lower interest rates can do is lower America's own debt. Servicing costs and America's public debt is drastic. Now, between 35 and $36 trillion in fact, to put our debt into perspective, it has gone galactic. And I mean that in an almost literal sense, because look, if you line up dollars, dollar bills, which are about six inches long, if you line those up end to end from Earth, how far do you think that they would reach? How about to the moon? Oh, no, if you line up dollars end to end, they would stretch beyond the moon. Okay, let's see how far we can follow them out through the solar system. They would breeze past Mars, which is 140 million miles away, the next planet out Jupiter. Oh, our trail of dollar bills would extend beyond that. Next up is Saturn and its ring. The dollar bills would reach beyond that. We're getting to the outer planets now, Uranus still going. Neptune, okay, Neptune is about $30 trillion bills away, and we would have to go beyond that then. So our 35 to $36 trillion of national debt would almost reach Pluto that's galactic. That's amazing. That's bad, and it probably means we have to print more dollars in order to pay back the debt, which is, of course, long term inflationary. And I don't know what's stopping us from going from $36 trillion up to say, 100 trillion, gosh. next week here on the show, we're talking about real estate investing in one of the long time best and still hottest real estate investor states, and then later on, we've got brilliant tax wizard Tom wheelwright returning, as we know here at GRE real estate pays five ways, and if you have any Spanish speaking family or friends, I've got a great way for them to consume all five video modules. It's an AI converting my voice to Spanish in these videos, we have a Spanish speaker here on staff at Get Rich Education, and she said the dub is pretty good. Well, the entire package, real estate pays five ways in Espanol is condensed into a powerful one hour total, all five videos a course, all in one wealth building hour. It's free to watch. There's no email address to enter or anything you can tell your Spanish speaking family and friends, or maybe your multilingual and your primary language is Spanish. That is it getricheducation.com/espanolricheducation.com/espanol or a shorter way to get to the same pageis getricheducation.com/espricheducation.com/esp, that's getricheducation.com/esp.richeducation.com/esp. This week's guest is one of the first people I ever heard discussing the blockchain and cryptocurrency 15 years ago, and then he was early on AI. What got my attention is his education about a promising construction material for building new real estate, though, I expect that our discussion will delve outside of real estate today as well. Let's meet the incomparable George Gilder. This week's guest is the co founder at the Discovery Institute, discovery.org original pillar of supply side economics, former speechwriter to both Presidents Reagan and Nixon. And he's the author of the classic book on economics called Wealth and Poverty. Today he's at the forefront of technological breakthroughs. He's a Harvard grad. He wears a lot of stripes. I've only mentioned a few. Hey, welcome to GRE George Gilder.

George Gilder 15:09

right there better here.

Keith Weinhold 15:11

It's so good to host you, George, in both your writings and your influences on people like President Reagan, you champion supply side economics. And I think of supply side economics as things like lower taxes, less regulation and free trade. We had someone in the Reagan administration here with us a few months ago, David Stockman. He championed a lot of those same things. But go ahead and tell us more about supply side economics and what that means and how that's put into practice.

George Gilder 15:43

Well, it really begins with human creativity in the image of your Creator, essence of supply side economics now super abundant. I mean supply side economics triumphs. We had the whole information technology revolution ignited during the Reagan years and now dominates the world economy and gives the United States seven out of the top 10 companies in market cap. 70% of global corporate market cap is American companies because of supply side economics amazing, and that's why it's distressing to see supply side economics, with its promise of super abundance and prosperity and opportunity, Give way to narrow nationalistic calculations and four tenths of war. I mean, all these Jews are at the forefront. Today, in time, we're going to see human creativity once again prevail in my books, Life After Capitalism is my latest book, my new paradigm is graphene. Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms, two dimensional layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper. It switches and the terahertz trillions of times a second, rather than the billions of times a second that our current silicon chips which and you mix it with concrete, the concrete comes 35% stronger, just parts per million of graphene mixed with concrete yields some material that's 35% stronger than ordinary concrete. You mix a parts per million of graphene with asphalt, the roads don't get potholes in the winter. It's radically Abate, but it conducts signals so accurately. If you go on YouTube, you can find a mouse and said it's spinal cord severed completely, injected with graphene, the spinal signals transmitted so accurately that the you see the mouse doing cartwheels by the end of the YouTube measure. I mean, it's material that's going to transform all industries, from real estate to medicine to surgery to electronics. Electronics been kind of the spearhead of our economy, of the transformation and electronics may be more significant than any other domain.

Keith Weinhold 18:49

Well, this is a terrific overview of all the contributions you're making to both the economic world and the technology world with what you told us about right there. And I do want to ask you some more about the graphene and the technology later. But you know, if we bring it back to the economics, it was in your classic book, Wealth and Poverty, which sold over a million copies, where you espouse a lot of the same things that you still espouse today in your more recent books, that is, capitalism begins with giving, we can often think of it that way. As a real estate investor is where we need to give tenants a clean, safe, affordable, functional property before we profit. Capitalism begins with giving.

George Gilder 19:32

Absolutely. That's a crucial debate I had with Ayn Rand The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and I say, capitalism is subsist on altruism. I'm concerned for the interests of others, imaginative anticipation of the needs of others. It's an altruistic, generous system, and from that generosity. Stems the amazing manifestations of super abundance that which I've been writing about recently. And super abundance shows, measured by time prices, how many hours a typical worker has to spend to earn the goods and services that sustain its life. Yeah, that's where the real cost has time. Yeah, time is money. Money is time, tokenized time, and measured by time, economic growth has been 50 to just enormously faster than is estimated by any of the GDP numbers. However, measured by time government services or ordinary GDP assumes that every dollar of government spending is worth what it costs. Prices both show that progress in the private sector has been four or five times faster than is estimated by GDP well government time, price of government dominated goods, including, increasingly, healthcare and education, is way less valuable than the cost. It's value subtracted, and certainly trillions of dollars for windmills and solar panels, trillions of dollars of subsidies is a net subtraction of value in the world economy. So I am with Gale Pooley and Tupy, both who wrote a book called Superabundance that I wrote the introduction to, and William Nordhaus, the Nobel laureate from Yale, who really conceived and developed time prices and showed that economic growth is 1000s of times greater than has been estimated by ordinary economic data. This is a time of abundance. It's not a time of scarcity. It's not a time of the dismal science. It's the time of super abundance.

Keith Weinhold 22:17

Yes, 100% a lot of that is just the government getting out of the way and really let people be givers, be that go giver and lead with giving, because I have never heard of a society that's taxed its way to prosperity.

George Gilder 22:34

Yeah. Well, that's absolutely the case. And I've been talking previously about graphene, which is the great new material that has been discovered of the last a couple decades. It originated, a lot of the science originated in Jim Tour's laboratory. James Tour of Rice University, and he's had scores of companies have emerged from his laboratory, and 18 of them got started in Israel. Israel is really become a leading force in the world economy. And when Israel is in jeopardy, our economy is in jeopardy. We have 100,000 Israeli citizens working in companies in Silicon Valley, 100,000 all the leading American tech companies have outposts in Israel, and now we face what I call the Israel test, which is how you respond to people who are really superior in creativity and accomplishment and intellect, and the appropriate thing to do is emulate them and learn from them. But too many people in the world see success and they want to tear it down, or they think it was stolen from someone else, or it was part of a zero sum game where the riches of one person necessarily come at the expense of someone else, which is the opposite of the truth, the riches proliferate opportunities for others. That's how the economy grows through the creativity and the image of your Creator.

Keith Weinhold 24:25

And when you bring up Israel, they're one of many nations that's made strong contributions to society and the economy, and we think about other nations that's been an increasingly relevant conversation these past few years, a lot of that centers on immigration. I'm not an expert on how many people we should let into this country or any of those sort of policy sorts of things, but here is a real estate investing show. I often think about where and how we're going to house all these immigrants, whether they come from Central America or South America or Israel or. Anywhere else. And I know oftentimes you've touted immigrations economic benefits, so I think it's pretty easy for one to see how in the short term, immigrants could be of economic detriment, but tell us more about those long term economic benefits of immigrants coming to the United States.

George Gilder 25:17

Immigrants come to the United States and become Americans and contribute American opportunity and wealth. We won the second world war because of immigration of Jewish scientists from Europe to the United States, who led by people like John von Neumann and Oppenheimer who forged the Manhattan Project, and that's really how we won the Second World War, was by accepting brilliant immigrants who wanted to serve America. Now there is a threat today where immigrants come to the United States not to contribute to the United States, but to exploit the United States, or even destroy it, not to go givers. They are givers, and so we want immigrants who are inclined to commit to America and create opportunities for the world, but immigrants who want to tear down America and who believe that America owes them something tend to be less productive and less valuable immigrants and immigrants who really want to destroy western civilization, and the jihadists that we know about are actually a threat to America. So the immigration problem isn't simple, but when we had a system where legal immigrants could apply and enter our country and revitalize it, that was a wonderful system, but having boards of illegal immigrants just pour over the border is not an intelligent way to deal with the desire of people around the world to share an American prosperity.

Keith Weinhold 27:13

We've seen several cases in the past year or two where immigrants are given free housing. There are really great case studies about this in Massachusetts and some other places, how they're giving housing before oftentimes, our own Americans, including sometimes retired veterans, are provided with housing. This all comes down to the housing crunch and already having a low housing supply. So what are some more your thoughts about just how much of a layup or a handout should we give new immigrants?

George Gilder 27:42

Housing technology is going to be transformed by the material science revolution that is epitomized by graphene, this miracle material I was describing. I think part of the problem is real estate enterprise is over regulated, and there are too many obstacles to the building of innovative new forms of housing. In 20 years, it'll be hard to recognize many of the structures that emerge as a result of real revolution in material science that is epitomized by this graphene age that I've been describing, and that also will transform electronics as well, and part housing can become a kind of computer platform as Elon Musk is transforming the auto business by seeing Tesla is really a new form of computer platform. I believe there's going to be an Elon Musk of real estate who is going to re envisage housing as a new form of building a computer platform that makes intelligent houses of the future that will be both cheaper and more commodious for human life.

Keith Weinhold 29:12

Real estate is rather old and slow moving when we think about technology in real estate, maybe what comes to mind are smart thermostats, smart doorbells, or 3d printed homes. When we come back, we're going to learn more about graphene and what it can do in real estate in the nanocosm revolution. Our guest is George Gilder. We talked about economics. We're coming back to talk about technology. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with less. Ridge you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family Investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866.

Dolf Deroos 31:19

This is the king of commercial real estate. Dolph de Roos, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:32

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're joined by an illustrious, legendary guest, George Gilder, among being other things, including a prolific writer. He's also the former speechwriter to presidents Reagan and Nixon. He's got a really illustrious and influential career. George, you've been talking about graphene, something that I don't think our audience is very familiar with, and I'm not either. Tell us about graphene promise in real estate.

George Gilder 31:59

Well, back in Manchester, England, in 2004 graphene was first discovered and formulated. It actually was submerged before then, but the Nobel Prizes were awarded to Geim and Novoselov in2010. So this is a new material that all of us know when we use a lead pencil, a lead is graphite, and graphene is a single layer of graphite. And it turns out, many people imagined if you had a single layer of graphite, it would just break up. It would not be useful.

Keith Weinhold 32:42

We're talking super thin, like an atom.

George Gilder 32:45

Yeah, it's an atom thick, but still, it turns out that it has miraculous properties, that it's 200 times stronger than steel. If you put it in a trampoline, you couldn't see the trampoline, but you could bounce on it without go following through it. It can stop bullets. It means you can have invisible and almost impalpable bulletproof vests, and you mix it with concrete, and the concrete is becomes 35% stronger, even parts per million of graphene can transform the tensile strength of concrete, greatly reduce the amount you need, and enable all sorts of new architectural shapes and capabilities. We really are in the beginning of a new technological age, and all depressionary talk you hear is really going to be eclipsed over coming decades by the emergence of whole an array of new technologies, graphene, for instance, as a perfect film on wafer of silicon carbide and enable what's called terahertz electronics, which is trillions of cycles a second like light rather than billions of cycles a second like or Nvidia or L silicon chips, and it really obviates chips, because you what it allows is what's called wafer scale integration of electronics, and today, it the semiconductor industry, and I've written 10 books on semiconductors over the years, but the semiconductor industry functions by 12 inch wafers that get inscribed with all sorts of complex patterns that are a billionth of a meter in diameter. These big wafers and then the way. First get cut up into 1000s of little pieces that each one gets encapsulated in plastic packages and by some remote Asian islands, and then get implanted on printed circuit boards that arrayed in giant data centers that now can on track to consume half the world's energy over the next 20 years, and these new and all this technology is ultimately going to be displaced by wafer scale integration on The wafer itself. You can have a whole data center on a 12 inch wafer with no chips. It's on the wafer itself. And this has been recently announced in a paper from Georgia Tech by a great scientist named Walter de Heere. And it's thrilling revolution that that render as much as Silicon Valley obsolescent and opens up just huge opportunities in in construction and real estate and architecture and medicine and virtually across the range of contemporary industry.

Keith Weinhold 36:20

You wrote a book about blockchain and how we're moving into the post Google world is what you've called it. So is this graphene technology that you're discussing with us here? Is that part of the next thing, which you're calling the nanocosm revolution?

George Gilder 36:36

The microcosm was an earlier book the quantum revolution and economics and technology. I thought I wrote years ago called microcosm.

Keith Weinhold 36:46

Okay, we're getting smaller than microcosm now in nanocosm.

36:49

that was microns, that was millionths of a meter dimensions of the transistors and devices and silicon chips, the nanocosm is a billionth of the meter. It's 1000 times smaller the features and electronics of the future, and we're moving from the microcosm into the nanocosm. New materials like graphene epitomize this transformation. You know, people think that these giant data centers all around the world, which are amazing structures, but half the energy in these data centers are devoted to removing the heat rather than fueling the computation. And I believe these data centers are represent a kind of IBM mainframe of the current era. When I was coming up, people imagined that a few 100 IBM mainframe computers, each weighing about a ton, would satisfy all the world's needs for computation, and that new artificial minds could be created with these new IBM mainframes. And it's the same thing today, only we're talking about data centers, and I believe that the coming era will allow data centers in your pocket and based on graphene electronics, and wait for scale integration, a whole new paradigm that will make the current data centers look like obsolete, old structures that need to be revitalized.

Keith Weinhold 38:37

Around 2007 Americans and much of the world, they got used to how it feels to have the power of a computer in their pocket with devices like the iPhone. How would it change one's everyday life to have effectively a data center in their pocket?

38:54

This means that we no longer would be governments of a few giant companies hearing a singular model of intelligence. That's what's currently envisaged, that Google Brain or Facebook or these giant data setters would sum up all human intelligence and in a particular definition, but there are now 8 billion human beings on earth, and each of our minds is as densely connected as the entire global internet. And while the global Internet consumes error watts, trillions of watts of power, or brains. Each of these 8 billion human minds functions on 12 to 14 watts, or it's billions of times less than these data center systems. On the internet. I believe that technology works to the extent that it expands human capabilities, not to the extent that it displaces human capabilities. The emergence of distributed databases in all our pockets, distributed knowledge and distributed creativity can revitalize the whole world economy and open new horizons that are hard to imagine today, as long as we don't, all of a sudden decide that we live in a material universe where everything is scarce and successes by one person come at the expense of somebody else, as long as that zero sum model doesn't prevail, right? Human opportunities are really unlimited. Most of economics has been based on a false model of scarcity, the only thing that's really scarce is time. Imagination and creativity are really infinite.

Keith Weinhold 41:10

Yes, well, if someone wants to learn more about graphene in the nanocosm revolution, how can you help them? What should they do?

41:18

They can read my newsletters. I have a company with four newsletters. I write the Gilder Technology Report. Much of the time I write, John Schroeder writes moonshots, which is and I have a Gilder Private Reserve that reaches out with our crowd and Israel, and a lot of those graph gene companies in Israel are part of our Private Reserve. And I do Gilders Guide posts, and those are all available getgilder.com.

Keith Weinhold 41:56

if you'd like to learn more about George and his popular newsletter called the Gilder Technology Report. You can learn more about that at get gilder.com George, it's been an enlightening conversation about economics and where society is moving next. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

George Gilder 42:16

Thank you, Keith. I really appreciate it.

Keith Weinhold 42:24

yeah, a forward looking discussion with the great George Gilder. Forbes said graphene may be the next multi trillion dollar material. George will tell you that you want to get into graphene now, while the biggest gains are still ahead. If it interests you in at least learning more, check out his video resource. It's free. There's also an opportunity for you to be an investor. You can do all of that and more at getgilder.com again getguilder.com until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. Don't Quit Your Daydream.

43:04

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 43:32

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com
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516: Is Every Debt Worth Paying Off?
26 aug· Get Rich Education
In this episode Keith shares the survey results on what the highest rising cost for landlords is and what to do about it. He challenges the conventional wisdom that all debts should be paid off.

He talks about how the rising costs of homeowners insurance and property taxes are the most significant expenses for single family landlords

76% of single-family landlords plan to raise rents over the next 12 months, with 35% expecting increases over 4%.

Learn about the concept of debt as leverage and its role in wealth building. The importance of liquidity, interest rate arbitrage, and the ability to outsource debt payments.

How inflation impacts debt.

Understand the benefits of debt in real estate investment, including the ability to own more properties and create arbitrage opportunities.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. The economy is affecting real estate in some interesting ways. Now, vital trends revealed from a survey of single family landlords. Then the heart of today's show is every debt that you have worth paying off. The answer is no, with some surprising reasons all today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies, disclaimers. Oh, had no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself, it's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text, GRE 66866 and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called The Don't quit your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:34

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:51

Welcome to GRE you are listening to the voice of real estate investing since 2014 I'm your host, Keith Weinhold back to help you build your wealth for another week. This is Get Rich Education. That's just one of many things that makes this show different from other shows, or just consuming news stories. Here, you stay updated on important real estate investing trends, but you learn specific strategies to actionably build your wealth. That's the difference, and it's with the most generationally proven medium of real estate, all without you having to be a flipper and often not a landlord either. Now, presidential candidates make lots of promises during their campaigns, that includes with real estate here recently, even if you're listening 10 years from now, I'll tell you how to put something like this into perspective. Kamala Harris unveiled her plan to spur the construction of 3 million more housing units. That's a good thing. America needs more housing. She also wants to give federal assistance, and by the way, that means your money. She wants to give federal assistance in the form of a $25,000 down payment help for first time home buyers. I see that as a bad thing, and see there's no partisan bias here at GRE a lot of media outlets, they will filter something like this is all good or all bad, because they get better ratings when they rile people up, and that results in a divided America. But the problem is that the 25k of down payment help that can be delivered faster than new homes can be built, and that risks pushing up home prices faster, sooner, which arose the very affordability that's trying to be helped here now a presidential candidate, be it Kamala Harris or anyone when they have this enthusiasm to also limit price gouging at grocery stores here, like this candidate does. I mean, that's the beginning of price controls, and when there are price controls, no farmer is going to want to produce cherry tomatoes or Fisher is going to want to produce wild caught salmon if they have a significant price ceiling limiting the supply of those things. Therefore, I mean, when we had price controls in the high inflation 70s, that created shortages. And it's important to keep in mind that presidential campaign promises, they often don't become policies that are enacted even if that person is elected president, and even if they are, much of this still requires congressional approval, and we still have a divided Congress, and any tax changes require the approval of Congress. So really, this stuff is just a presidential wish list, giving you some perspective here. Now on the topic of shortages, there still is not enough available supply of US homes, active listings, those seeking a starter home often get more worn out than your grandpa after two games of checkers. But inventory levels are not as bad as they used to be, we still got a ways to go to claw back close to a more normal, balanced pre pandemic housing supply level nationally, we are still 29% lower. There are now still 29% fewer active listings than there were in pre pandemic times and most individual states still have inventory levels lower than that, too, compared to five years ago, when we break it down by state, some have a more paltry supply than others, though, places with the scarcest inventory, they seem To be those states where maple syrup gets produced, as it turns out, and I sure hope that this doesn't mean people need to sleep in the sugar shack. Connecticut is down 75% that means they have 75% less inventory than five years ago, pre pandemic, Illinois down 66%, New Jersey down 57%, Virginia down 53%, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Michigan all with 51% less inventory than they had pre pandemic. Ohio down 43%, California and Missouri each down 31%. The main problem here is that the Northeast and Midwest have not had enough home building in order to keep up with housing demand. I guess what? There were too many snow days in the Northeast and Midwest, or were builders constantly distracted by potholes and cicadas? Conversely, there are three popular investor states where for sale inventory is just a tad higher now than it was five years ago. Texas is up 6%, Florida up 5%, Tennessee up 2% and this doesn't mean that these states are oversupplied with housing, it just means that they have a touch more than they did in 2019 so they're closer to balance. The important overall thing to remember here is, of course, that nationally, buyers still outnumber sellers. So between the lower mortgage rates that we've had in the past year and the low supply, this keeps the environment ripe. There will be more offers and more potential for home prices to increase faster than its current rate of 4.1%. That 4.1% year over year, as per the NAR, it's important for you to understand that there's virtually no way that prices can revert to their pre pandemic levels. Home prices are not going back to where they used to be five years ago. In fact, there is more pressure on them to rise from here not fall, and there are a few reasons why prices cannot go back to where they were. The rate of inflation has slowed. You've seen the price of lumber come down, but wider inflation has been indelibly baked into the pricing cake. Homes now have higher, permanently embedded costs of labor, materials and land that all have more stick-to-itiveness to them than Simone Biles on the balance beam. Prices are not coming down anytime in the near future. You might remember that right here on this show in in our newsletter, back in late December, eight months ago, I forecast that national home prices would rise 4% this year, and I still really like how that looks. I'll get back to the investment side here shortly, but real quick, in light of the new rules about how real estate agents are compensated if you're about to buy a primary residence, you may not have any experience negotiating with a broker. In last week's newsletter, I sent you a template you can use and that can help you simplify the process as a buyer and help you avoid being taken advantage of. I sent you that template last Thursday. Back here on the real estate investor side, after a high tide of inflation, you know, you and I, we have all surely enjoyed the splash of both higher property prices and rents. That looks to continue. But what about your higher property expenses, too? Let's talk about what you've got to do to avoid getting crunched by expenses. A survey of single family landlords was recently conducted by lending one in resi club, and they asked this question, what is your expense that increased the most the past 12 months? The number one answer is fast rising insurance premiums, with half of respondents citing that as their biggest expense increase item. And that's hardly a new development, not surprising. The next biggest expense was property tax, 27% of respondents cited that. That's mostly a reflection of higher property values and their consequent tax assessments. 235 single family landlords completed this survey, by the way. So they were the proportion of landlords that answered about what was their fastest increasing expense. Half of them said insurance, easily the most well, the rate of increase in homeowners insurance costs was roughly 10 to 12% nationally last year. That's according to the Insurance Information Institute, and the top two reasons for this are more severe storms and higher replacement costs. The good news is that further rate increases are cooling off, though, all right, but still, what are you to do as a rental property owner that's stuck with a higher property insurance bill? I've got a great answer for you, and it's so incredibly simple. You pass the expense along to your tenant with a rent increase, and then others can deal with what happens downstream from there. And I'll tell you how to go about doing this shortly, which is also so incredibly simple. But if you're reluctant to pass along the increased insurance expense to your tenant, understand that you and your tenant are just like two ports along a river. As this wave of inflation flows along, it flows from the reinsurer to the insurer, to you, the property owner, to the increased rent, to the hike in the tenant wage, to the employer, and then the employer hikes prices on the consumer. That's how the river flows. No watered down returns for you. Now, of course, this River's headwaters are sourced with the government, because that's where inflation comes from. Inflation means an expansion of the money supply. You and your tenant are really two ports along the river. Don't let the expense water dam up and flood you, and the written reason that you give your tenant for the rent increase is drum roll here, higher insurance costs. Yeah, that's it. It's super simple. There's no need to be inventive here. Honesty is therefore the best river raft. Hey, come on now this remorseless geography degree holder has got to let loose with something like river references from time to time. So that's the greatest expense increase item, what to do about it and how you should go about doing it. Now this same survey of single family landlords, they showed that 76% expect to reach high watermarks and raise the rent over the next 12 months, including 35% of landlords who say the rent increase will be over 4% and planned rent increases of one to 7% are most common. That's the planned rent increase range one to 7%. Look, you didn't get into real estate to subsidize others living expenses. There is nothing unethical about adjusting to market level rent. Rent hikes are like a lock lifting your ship through the Panama Canal. All right, so what do we make of this. I mean, gaging, overall investor sentiment is we head later into the 2020s, decade. What is the landlord temperature? As I see it, expenses are up. Higher. Rents follow. And last quarter, home values increased in almost 90% of us, Metro markets, yes, property values are up in 89% of Metro markets. But how do single family landlords in this same survey feel? Well, 60% of them say they will buy at least one investment property over the next 12 months. So most single family landlords they want to buy more. And when that's broken down by region, the most single family real estate investor optimism is in the Midwest, Northeast and South. And really single family landlords are optimistic in every region except the West. And this makes sense. Cash Flows are less lucrative in the West because prices have long outpaced rents there, the survey really shows that most aren't wildly bullish or excessively bearish on the real estate market. They expect it to stay balanced. Many plan to buy properties raise rents, and the survey shows that they, too, expect a 4% home price appreciation rate. That's what it showed, and they anticipate falling interest rates. Now, personally, I often disagree with what the masses think. I mean, contrarians to the mainstream, they are often the profiteers. But in this case, I guess I'm more agreeable with the survey respondents than a perfectly brewed cup of coffee in the morning. And well, maybe that's because single family landlords, the very people that were surveyed are not mainstream. The housing market is actually pretty normal in most every significant way, except, of course, the ongoing lack of housing inventory and affordability challenges for first time homebuyers. And if you're a newer GRE listener, even normal times can be thrilling for a real estate investor when you achieve a 40% plus total rate of return from how real estate pays you five ways. Yes, if you're new here, I know that sounds like an unachievable return, but 40% plus is actually realistic without high risk when you understand your five simultaneous profit sources with income producing property. In fact, when someone asks why you invest in real estate, you can just hold up five fingers. The broader economy shows a lot of signs of normalcy as well, GDP, growth, consumer spending, unemployment, the inflation rate, but the sad exception here is this widening gap between the wealthy and the poor, so I guess that more people charter yachts and yet others increasingly pour mountain dew on their fruit loops in the morning for breakfast. Now, complete uncertainty never disappears, but after disruptions from covid, high inflation and new wars, a lot of people see calmer times ahead. Elections matter, but some people seem more concerned about who the next President will be than the parent of a Sephora obsessed teen. Presidential elections aren't known to rock the real estate market, and actually, history shows that the more sensitive stock market is only temporarily affected by an election. Sometimes I just ponder and quietly think to myself, hmm, when the liquid death drink brand thrives from Hawking wildly overpriced water in a can, I posit just how bad can the economy really be? The bottom line is that most single family investors are meeting higher insurance expenses with rent increases and they want to buy more income property over the next 12 months.

Hey, if you like this show here, and you get value from it every week, I love it when you just simply tell a friend about the show, it's as easy as having them download our dedicated Get Rich Education mobile app for both iOS and Android. If you think you have any friends that would benefit from the vital episode here, I'd be grateful if you shared the show with them, use the Share button on your podcaster, or even take a screenshot and post it to your social. Straight ahead is any debt worth paying off? I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.

Keith Weinhold 19:47

Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k, you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.

Dani-Lynn Robison 20:49

This is Freedom Family Investments Co-founder, Dani-Lynn Robison, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 20:57

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, you're listening to Episode 516 is every debt that you have worth paying off? The short answer is no. I have held millions of dollars in debt from a young age, and I just keep holding on to more and more. Look what happens to your net worth when you pay down one of your debts, absolutely nothing happens to your net worth. It stays the same. All right. Say that the total value of all of your assets gives you a sum of one and a half million dollars. That's the combined value of any of your real estate, cars, retirement accounts, gold, Bitcoin, all of it, anything of value one and a half million and totaling up all of your debts equals just a half million. That's your mortgages, automobile debt, credit card debt, everything. All right, so you've got one and a half million in assets and 500k in debt. So you've got a million dollar net worth, okay, well, next, say that you decide to pay down 100k of your debt. All right. Well, what's the result? You've got only $1.4 million in assets and just 400k in debt. Well, the result is that your net worth is still a million bucks. You've now got fewer assets and less debt, so you just broke even. But it could be worse than just a break even, because what if, one month after you made this debt pay down. You now need that 100k back for living expenses, but you can no longer get it returned to you because you lost your job, so no one will qualify you for a loan again, or you still have your job. But lending standards have tightened and changed now your 100k is on the other side of a wall that you can't access. So debt pay down isn't just a question of net worth, it's liquidity. And there are some more layers here that we're going to get into paying down mortgage debt. It also builds home equity. Well, that is usually a bad thing, because, as I'm known for saying, home equity is unsafe, illiquid, and its rate of return is always zero. Do you know the crowd that sometimes forgets this and really gets penalized? It is seniors, retirees. All right, what happens when a person is older and they've had a paid off home for a while. People get a reverse mortgage. They need funds for living expenses. Well, reverse mortgages, they have high fees, and also you can't get nearly all of your equity out. You'll often only get up to 60 to 65% loan to value, meaning that 35 to 40% of that hard earned equity that you worked decades for. First it became trapped with no return, and now it's essentially gone. Poof. For all those years, your home is paid off, even if it began as early as your 30s, like it does for some people all that time your equity wasn't earning any rate of return. And the earlier in life you learned that the ROI from home equity is always zero, the better. You didn't see any bill for this loss. You just never saw the gain that you should have had. And that's part of the reason why this myth that home equity is such a great thing perpetuates and carries on for generations. All right, well, we are just getting warmed up here at a key financial question in your life. That question is, is every debt that you have worth paying off?

24:58

Did you know millions of Americans live with debt they cannot control. That's why I developed this unique new program for managing your debt. It's called Don't buy stuff you cannot afford. Let me see that. If you don't have any money, you should not buy anything. hmm sounds interesting, sounds confusing.

Keith Weinhold 25:24

Well, there's a little something to be said for that. But what about interest rate? If that 100k that you paid down was for credit card debt? All right? Well, that was probably a good thing. 44% of American credit card holders carry debt month to month. Now I'm going to guess for you the GRE listener, it's even less likely than that that you carry debt month per month, where you would be subject to credit card finance charges. The average credit card interest rate in America is about 25% today, and it is unsecured debt, meaning that it's a debt type that's not backed by collateral. Now, yes, you can beat a 25% return if you're leveraged in real estate, but your liquid cash flow drain is drastic on credit cards. The other problem with credit cards is that you have to pay your own debt. Later, I'll talk about when others pay your debt for you. And if you have decided that you have some debts worth paying down because its interest rate is too high for goodness sake, pay the one with the highest interest rate first. I know there's a school of thought that says, pay the debt with the lowest balance. First, that is nonsense. Now, sometimes, if you know specifically what you're doing with credit cards, you can play some little games with them. I mean, personally, after I finished college, I kept transferring credit card balances with 0% APR, Intro offers, introductory offers that were for a limited time at 0% and then I kept track of that so that intro rate didn't expire. But this isn't any sort of long term wealth building strategy. Higher balance transfer fees have made that strategy less lucrative. Now too, banks have tightened that up. When it comes to interest rates, it's about that arbitrage. Ask yourself really two questions when it comes to arbitrage, which is just a fancy sounding way of making a profit or a spread. First, you need to ask yourself, how good of an investor Are you? What percent return can you reliably earn from your investments? Say you think it's 15% then if you're plus 15 but the interest rate on your debt is 8, well, then you've got 7 points of arbitrage or profit. So keep the 8% debt. And then secondly on arbitrage plays. Ask yourself, can I afford the cash flow if I keep this debt around? Because if you're 15% return, just say that it's all tied up in the appreciation of a property. Well, that's not very liquid, so you're going to need to have the free cash to make the payments on your 8% interest rate loan. Let's talk about other times not to pay down the debt. Say you're trying to build up an emergency fund of at least three months, or you want to contribute to your employer match in your company's retirement plan, you may very well want to fund those things before you pay down debt too. Now some say, hey, you know something. Just forget about all these numbers like rates of return and interest rates. You know, debt just makes me feel anxiety and feel stress and sleeplessness. There is emotion here, so let me just get it paid off. Or I'm afraid that if I've got some money and I don't pay off my debt, that I'll just lose all of the money to sports gambling, and to that, I say, come on, be an adult. Set some boundaries. Dog ears, some cash for entertainment, and have a firm line. Learn how to use that to your advantage. Debt is like fire. It can burn you if you don't know how to use it, and it can heat your home if you do know how to use it. And if debt gives you sleeplessness. Here, this will help you sleep your debts, principal balance is being debased for you as you sleep, every single one of your debts is being eroded by inflation. Right now, as you listen to me, your principal balance is quietly, debasing and passively, eroding with your say 500k of total debt. We have 10% inflation over a couple years. Well, that erodes its weight down to 450k all without you having to get involved and make any pay downs at all. As wages go higher, and so do prices and rents and salaries, as they all spiral higher, it gets easier to pay back those principal balances. And debt is the most powerful wealth building force that I know of, because debt is leverage. Compound interest is weak. Leverage is powerful. Debt allows you to own and control five times as many properties as you could if they were all paid off. And if you don't understand this, or if your jaw hit the floor, what I just said a minute ago, that compound interest is weak. I just discussed this for you in clear detail nine weeks ago, on Get Rich Education podcast episode 507. So go and check that out. One attribute of real estate debt is that as you get properties where the rent income meets or exceeds the expenses, congratulations, you have reliably outsourced all of your debt payments to tenants. See, most of my debt, personally, virtually all of it, it isn't really going to be paid back by me. It's my tenants, and that is another reason to keep debt in place and only make the minimum payment. Let's talk about another reason to pay down your debt when a payoff or pay down actually does make sense, even if it's at a low interest rate, it's when an outside force kind of makes you pay down your debt. And here's what I'm talking about. Say you're trying to buy a property, whether that's a primary residence or rental, and that you've got say, Oh, just $11,000 left to pay on your car loan at a 5% interest rate, even though you can't outsource the payments. That's a pretty nice low 5% interest rate, you're confident that you can beat that and earn more elsewhere, so you'd rather enjoy the positive arbitrage instead of paying that off. And I'd feel the same way. But here's the twist, your mortgage loan officer says you've got to pay the $11,000 down to zero because your debt to income ratio is too high. So if you want the mortgage, the big loan amount, you've got to pay off the car loan, the little loan amount. Well, that's a case when it makes sense to pay off that automobile loan debt then, and also, when it comes to your credit score, you might need to improve it to qualify for another loan so you can get a low interest rate and 30% of your FICO score is made up of your amounts owed. I'm answering a vital question for you today, and that is, is every one of your debts worth paying off? I'm sharing information, perspective and experience with you here, and this experience was built, just like all experiences, and I didn't always have the experience, of course. Now my parents and I split my college loan costs, 5050, I still had student loan debts for a few years after graduating, and you know, I can't remember what my student loan interest rates were maybe 6% blended because I had a few different student loans, some of which I did transfer onto those 0% intro, APR credit cards, by the way. But after my student loans were paid off, and I started investing in real estate and understanding terms like leverage and arbitrage, you know, I started to wonder if it would be desirable to have those student loans back rather than paying them off so fast I could have owned another property or two sooner, and I'll never know the opportunity cost of not benefiting from the returns on owning more Property sooner. And of course, student loan debt is one of the few debt types that cannot be written off in bankruptcy that tilts back a little toward paying them off sooner than later. What you just heard me talk about here for the last 15 or so minutes is a message that hundreds of millions of people need to hear it's that not every debt is worth paying off or even paying down. So to help give you a summary answer to our question, is every debt worth paying off? The answer is no, and the key considerations are liquidity, interest rate arbitrage inyour ability to outsource the debt. Debt is good when it helps you buy a cash flowing asset or create arbitrage. Debt is probably even good when it helps you buy a home for your family and have a sense of permanency and a mantle to place baseballs and hang Christmas stockings from and build memories. And now this is all because every single one of us either uses debt or we forego the opportunity to use debt. Well, when we forego using debt, we are now subject to a resultant opportunity cost, and this is why a central and enduring mantra here at GRE is that financially free beats debt free. Financially free means that you have enough residual income streams to meet all of your expenses and live just how you want to live. Debt Free means that you don't owe anyone anything, but if you put debt free before financially free, you are going to grind and live below your means and eat dirt and miss opportunities for decades.

And speaking of leveraging your way to financial freedom with assets, the way that we actionably help you here is by recommending income producing providers and properties for you. And you probably noticed over time that GRE marketplace properties here are less expensive than elsewhere. And you might wonder why exactly is this? Well, there's a few reasons. Investor advantage markets have low prices. Also, there is no agent you get to buy directly. Thirdly, providers provide homes in bulk, keeping your costs down. And then finally, there are no owner occupied emotions involved here with buying and owning rental properties, so you don't have sellers that are making unreasonable requests. So this helps answer why GRE marketplace properties are often good deals. Now it seems like states with the best cash flow in real estate are the same ones where people are more likely to wear bib overalls. That's just how it is. In fact. Hey, case in point, I just learned about some brand new, new build single family rentals in southwest Missouri at GRE marketplace. They're available for you to own regardless of where you live. They make ideal rentals, and they come with free property management for the first year. And because they're freshly built. Expect the likelihood of a quality tenant, light maintenance and low repair costs for years. Let me just quickly mention two of them to give you a feel. The first one is in Carthage, Missouri. The single family rental is three bed, two bath. Rent 1550 the price is 206k it's 1200 square feet, built this year. You get a $1,200 rent credit with it. So it's going to take a 51k down payment, and it produces cash flow. The second one is in Carl Junction, Missouri, four bed two bath in this single family rental. The rents $1,875 the price $250,500 1683 square feet built this year. 62k down and produces cash flow. And like I said, both come with free property management for the first year, and we can help set up an entire real estate investment plan for you, whether it's with these properties or others in multiple states, where we help you make it easy on yourself and contact a GRE investment coach. It is truly free always. There aren't going to be any hidden coaching bills that pop up in the mail. We don't have some paid coaching program. We're trying to upsell you. We don't have anything to sell, and our coaches are like advisors, consultants, super connectors and like silent partners on your deals, and they get zero equity in the deal. And our coaches don't wear Bib Overalls either. So they keep it really relatable for you, make it actionable and make a real difference in your life, start at gremarketplace.com. That's where you can contact a GRE investment coach, and we'll see how we can help you out from gremarketplace.com just click on the free investment coaching button. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I'll be back to help you build your wealth, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

39:46

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed or investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 40:06

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com.
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515: Unpacking the Myths: How Rent Control Affects Housing Quality and Availability
19 aug· Get Rich Education
Independent documentary filmmaker and policy analyst at Reason Foundation, Jen Sidorova, joins us to discuss how rent control impacts tenants, landlords and the housing market. Her latest short film project, “Shabbification: The Story of Rent Control”, reflects how rent control has a direct effect on housing quality.

Almost half of rentals in NYC are rent-stabilized.

We highlight the challenges faced by small property owners and the potential consequences of these regulations on the housing market.
Bathtub in your kitchen, anyone? Yes, you read that correctly. In some cases maintenance has been deferred for so long that units have not been updated to code.

Learn about the history of rent control and stabilization laws in New York.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/515

You can follow Jen on Instagram @jen_sidorova or check out her writing at reason.org

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I discuss the effect that now lower mortgage rates can have how to get a strong return with private lending. Then, for this week's guest, she is a public policy expert with reason.com maker of a new film called Shabbification that spotlights the perils and even horrors of rent control in New York City, and she's a young Russian immigrant that lives in one unit of a Buffalo fourPlex and rents out the other three today on Get Rich Education.

When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 1:40

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 1:56

Welcome to GRE from Ankara,Turkey to Anchorage, Alaska and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to Get Rich Education. Today's guest was one of four panelists at a conference that I attended recently. The panel was named innovative solutions to the housing crisis, and her story struck me as interesting, so I invited her to be on the show today, we'll learn that with rent control in New York City, when landlords cannot go inside their own properties and aren't allowed to sell their own properties, seven states have price ceilings on rents, and I'll tell you here At GRE we avoid investing in these places. Listen closely, California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Maine, Oregon, Minnesota and then DC too. Now sometimes rent control isn't too restrictive. For example, you can raise the rent no more than the rate of inflation plus 3% per year, or the rate of inflation plus 5% per year. And also, it's not all parts of those states where it applies. In fact, you typically do not find the policies statewide in those states that I mentioned, although you do in Oregon, it's statewide in Oregon, and there you can still raise the rent 7% plus the rate of inflation each year. And the good news is that 37 states actually have laws against rent control, specifically saying that you cannot enact it. So not only do 37 states not have it, they just wouldn't even allow a law for it. And there is a strong consensus, like I mentioned here on the show before, among economists that rent control, it reduces the quantity and quality of housing. Today, we'll focus on just how dilapidated rental units become under rent stabilization, which is a lot like rent control in New York City. And we'll discuss New York State and Buffalo. And by the way, I find something amazing. I mean, just say you would ask a question of any citizen of the world, no matter where they live, from Indonesia to Japan, to Bangladesh, to Nigeria to the United States. If you would just ask any citizen of the world, what is the capital of the world? I think that the best answer that you could come up with is New York City. I'm in the United States, and there are people right here in this country that have such little understanding of New York City, and what goes on there, and where it even is, it just amazes me. Maybe it's my own bias, because I'm a geography guy, but now, for example, to get from New York City out to Buffalo, that's an almost seven hour drive to the northwest two different parts of New York State. These are two very different places. We'll get into that shortly. But first in the wider real estate world, I did a little research since first mentioning this to you last week here, where mortgage rates have fallen fully one and a half points from the recent high. All right. Well, with every half point drop in mortgage rates, like I learned from First American, that's my source. With every half point drop in mortgage rates, about 1.1 million additional American households can qualify to buy an entry level home that's defined as the bottom 25% priced here. That's the number, and I checked their math. So with a full point drop in mortgage rates, then 2.2 million more American households can qualify to buy an entry level home. So we could very well have more buyers here soon, but yeah, when all these homeowners are still locked into three and 4% mortgage rates, I don't know that you're gonna have that many more sellers. So with demand exceeding supply, look for more upward pressure on home prices, especially higher values for those entry level homes that make the best rentals. Now, I'm talking about borrowing right there. And what happens when rates go down for mortgages, when they go down for borrowing? Well, rates on savings accounts, they typically fall as well. And this is a scenario that a lot of people expect. Now, most of my real estate activity is a borrower. I'm always here touting the virtues of how leverage builds wealth, and I know that I don't want to be a saver. So for my more liquid funds, I am a lender, and I'm reliably paid a stable 8% interest rate. And I think I've told you before that for years now, I make loans to real estate companies, and they use my funds to rehab properties and for other operations. Yes, an 8% return that I'm getting, and it's almost like getting an 8% yield on a savings account, and it's not expected to fall when interest rates fall. Well, the primary difference is that I often have to wait a few months if I want my full principal return, but not years. So it's not as rigid as a bank CD, but it's not as liquid as an old fashioned bank savings account. So the private real estate company that I've long made loans to works pretty diligently to maintain asset value and assure optimal returns. They'll tell you that they've never missed making a payment for their private money lending programs. And I did a little research, and I found that their fund utilization is 99.6% that really means that they deploy almost all of the capital if you want, you can potentially get a high yield at the same place I do. Sometimes you can get more than 8% or less than an 8% return, depending on what liquidity terms you want and what other terms you like. The company is Freedom Family Investments. They are real estate centric. If you want, go right ahead and learn more. You can do that by texting FAMILY to 66866. Remember, you're the lender, they're the borrower. And again, for most investment types, I want to be the borrower, but for liquid funds, and the fact that the rate of inflation is now down, an 8% return has a higher real yield now than it did two years ago and one year ago. And again, I'm happy to share it with you. It's Freedom Family Investments. If you want to learn more, do it now while it's on your mind and text FAMILY to 66866.

This week, our guest is a public policy expert that's also involved with a film called Shabbification, the story of rent control. Hey, welcome to GRE Jen Sidorova.

Jen Sidorova 9:16

Good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Keith Weinhold 9:18

Yeah and congrats. Shabbification screening in a lot of places, like the Anthem Film Festival at Freedom Fest last month and this month in New York City, tell us about the film.

Jen Sidorova 9:31

Yeah, so in Shabbification, I follow small property owners like myself who are subject to regulation, and most of them are owners of rent stabilized properties in the city of New York. Right, I follow three specific landlords. I They take me to their homes, they take me to their properties, and they show me around, and you can visually see what regulation has done to their property. Yeah, one of these properties was occupied by a tenant. From 1969 up until 2021 wow. And the landlord was never allowed to be in the property, so obviously no repairs were made. And you could see visually that the apartment was like from the 60s. It's like a museum, but not in a good way, because it's really falling apart, right? So it's like, almost like a Tenement Museum, or, you know, another museum New York City, where we they actually preserve those dates. But in this case, a private landlord actually owns that space, and they're having a difficult time. And so what my specific Shabbification With my film is about is a very specific regulation in New York City that happened in 2019 that applied to rent stabilized properties. What it did that is that it won't allow landlords to put them properties on the market even if they rent stabilized tenant vacates them. They're no longer allowed to put their properties on the market at all. And more than that, they are also not allowed to raise rent, even if they do repairs. So sometimes the cost of repairs in New York City for one bedroom unit can be 200,000 and they're only allowed to raise the rent by like roughly $90 a month, and only for 15 years. So it will take them, like, 200 years to recoup their investment. And obviously that doesn't make any sense, so stories like that is what my short film is about. I myself am a small property owner, so it was very special for me to go and kind of tell the story of people like me.

Keith Weinhold 11:36

That's amazing. So rent stabilization something that New York City has a history of. I sort of think of that as a genteel term or rent control. And a lot of times when your rent can't be raised above a certain amount, you get these long term tenants, in some cases, for decades, and in this case, over 50 years, with this particular tenant in New York City and landlords don't have much of any incentive to improve property when rent control is in place, because they know they cannot get a commensurate bump in rent.

Speaker 1 12:11

rent control and rent stabilization are a form of government enforced limit on the rents. And in New York we have two laws that govern that we have more but the most prominent ones are the rent control law of 1969 and the Rent Stabilization Act of 1974 so back in the day, there were issues with availability of affordable housing, and the government was trying to fix it, and that fix was supposed to be temporary. It was supposed to eventually run out once the tenants who were currently in place at the time in late 60s and 70s, once they move out, landlords were able to put those properties back on the market. And eventually, that's kind of what was going on up until 2019 when housing stability and Tenant Protection Act made it so that the landlords could no longer put their rent stabilized properties on the market anymore. So essentially, all rent stabilization became permanent in the state of New York, and actually, in the just a couple of weeks after my film, in April of 2024 we had another law. It's called Good Cause Eviction, and that one regulates every landlord or enterprise who owns more than 11 units. So once you own 11 units or more, you're subject to regulation. You can no longer evict your tenant without a good cause. And there's a bunch of other rules that apply, including the limit on how much rent you can raise year to year. So yeah, that's certainly what's going on. That's roughly the landscape all regulation in New York.

Keith Weinhold 13:44

Yeah, some of this is really punitive, because if rent control comes into a market, that's one thing sometimes that landlords want to do. They want to sell their property, and in some cases, there's a roadblock against that. You know, Jen, I looked up the definition of Shabbification. I just simply googled the term. Urban Dictionary had one of the first hits, and fortunately, it was a G rated definition there in urban dictionary, it was defined as the opposite of gentrification. So therefore with Shabbification, it's where a neighborhood goes through deterioration and despair. So tell us about some more of those bad cases of deterioration, in despair, in Shabbification. Just how bad does it get?

Speaker 1 14:30

Well, one of the properties that we went to was basically from 1910 it was in Chinatown, and we saw was that the bathtub was in the kitchen in that property, oh my gosh. And I believe that was a way for them to do renovations fast and cheap, like 100 years ago. And because that property falls under rent stabilization, and there's obviously limits on how much rent you can charge. So. Landlords of those properties never really make renovations. Sometimes you could see cases like the director of photography, who was in the film, he lives in a rent sabilized property, and in his case, he has a shower unit in his kitchen as well. Instead of a tub, he has a shower unit. And it kind of is, as he described as one of those telephone booths, like, you know, red telephone booths from London, and then kind of just sits in the kitchen, and you obviously cannot really have company or friends visiting or dinner or anything if you have something like that. But those are the setups that we frequently see. Also a lot of things like uneven floors or just, you know, the property, if it's not being taken care of, there might be, like, a hole in the wall, a hole in the ceiling, or the ceiling is falling out. And those are really graphic images. And we do, we do capture them on camera a lot in Shabbification, and that comes from, kind of, my attraction to urban decay. I do enjoy, you know, touring older buildings, or maybe buildings that are preserved as a ruin, maybe like an old prison and or like an old mental asylum. I do do that a lot. It's just a hobby when I travel. So I was always attracted to that esthetic, and that does show in my film as well. I think I love studying the tragedy because I love studying how the hope died, because it's fascinating to me. It's very specific to usually a town or a city, and then just is so telling, and it's such a teaching moment for us as a society to kind of revisit those stories and figure out why did that hope die. And you can see a lot of that in the film.

Keith Weinhold 16:41

it's a great way to scratch one's itch for I suppose, seeing real life haunted houses, if you will, in Jen's film Shabbification here. Well, Jen, we've been talking about the conditions of the tenants. Why don't we talk more about how the landlord is portrayed in Shabbification.

Speaker 1 17:00

since this is the story, primary of the landlords, not so much on the tenant. You know, normally in this sort of films and these sort of documentaries, the story falls in tenant, because the tenant is the one who is seen as likable and sympathetic person, and that's how, and that's usually a more preferable framing angle. But in my story, my story is a story of a merchant class, or like a more, like a war on the merchant class, the war on landlords. Because in the state of New York, no matter how small or large of a landlord you are, whether you own one unit or 1000 by a lot of people in New York State Legislature as a landlord, you're seen as evil. They think you've done something wrong and you have to be punished. So that's the attitude to a lot of landlords, and although they're not that many small property owners, and sometimes we're not seen as a sympathetic I think this is the story that we need to tell, because some of them are like me. I am an immigrant to this country. Once I got an opportunity, I got my first rental property in Buffalo, New York, and right away, I've been renting out three units and lived in one, and I still do own it. Five years later, I live alongside with my tenants. When I go on vacations, they feed my cat, and when they go travel for work, I do take care of their properties. I water their plants, do things like that. So we do live as a small community, and this is something that a lot of people do in Buffalo, because it's a working class city. It's very hard to be able to afford a single family home. Right away, what you can do is acquire one of these properties, either a two unit, three or four unit, because when you're four units less, then you can do an FHA loan, which I did, and you can put minimum amount down, which I did, and then day one, right away, the income from the tenants was paying off my mortgage, right? That's kind of how I can build generational wealth. But not only that, that's how I can start my journey of home ownership and hopefully building generational wealth in the future, as I've said. And I also have my own passion for buildings, and we did a lot of renovations with my family on that property. So there's a lot of heart and soul in that space. And laws like rent control and Good Cause Eviction, they put a cap on people like me and how much we can grow. Because, as I've mentioned, the Good Cause Eviction in New York, it puts a cap on how far and how big people like me can grow. Because once you have 11 units, that's my cap. Once I have 11 units, I have subject to regulation, and somebody like me cannot afford having a tenant who would just never move out. So yeah, I think these laws, they intended to protect the needy. They intended to protect the families, but they do just the opposite. They. Just limit how much we can grow, and they also just make an environment within our properties very toxic, because tenants now basically have more rights than we do.

Keith Weinhold 20:09

Yeah, well, you're really humanizing the plight of the landlord here, Jen with your four Plex over there. For those that aren't familiar with the geography in western New York in Buffalo, sort of the opposite end of the state where New York City is. And, yeah, I mean, landlords are usually portrayed in media is these people that are sort of greedy and bumbling and they won't fix the broken air conditioner. And, you know, it's, it's unusual to me, Jen, that a lot of people tend to resent landlords, whom are often small business owners, but yet they champion other small business owners. And talk about how, you know, small business ownership is the very heart of America. I'm trying to figure out why that is, you know, maybe some tenants that just don't really understand how things work. Just think, well, why should I have to pay this landlord. All I'm doing is sort of renting air or renting space. But you know, one group of tenants that does not seem to resent landlords, Jen, in my experience, that is people that were previously homeowners and are now tenants. They don't seem to resent landlords, and that's probably because that tenant that has experience being a homeowner. They've seen bills for property tax and property insurance and mortgage principal and mortgage interest and maintenance and repairs. I think that's what makes the difference.

Jen Sidorova 21:33

Yeah, definitely. It's almost like, you know, when I lived with my parents, I didn't pay attention to the bills, like election bills or water bills or anything. But once you start living on your own, you now see how it gets deducted from your account, and then it changes you, adds you towards consumption, changes right? You now turn off the light when you leave and do just small things like that. And that's a similar psychology that works with people who previously owned their own homes. I think what the dynamic that's happening here with tenants is there's always going to be more tenants than landlords, so tenants have a lot more political power, and we see a lot of that in New York. We have a lot of tenant groups, tenant unions, who are very hold a little, a lot of political power. And it's one side of it, another side of it is that a lot of these policies do benefit large landlords, in a sense that once the small property owner is no longer able to keep up the property and they just foreclose on it, a larger landlord can always pick it up. And for large landlords, these costs of litigating with the tenant, or the cost of fixing a unit, or even the cost of having somebody live without paying for a few months, these are just the costs of running business, whereas for somebody like me, it's a significant chunk of my income, right? So at the moment, I think it's like 25% of my income is coming from the rentals, so it's significant. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, on the other side of political power, I just legislators who do not want to see private rentals. You know, small property owners having rentals and Damn, motivations are something else. It's almost like, if there's one conspiracy theory that I believe in, is that one you know, is that there is a war on the merchant class among some legislators, especially in the state of New York, who really just do not want to see small property owners providing housing to the community, and they would rather see it in in the hands of larger developers, and that's just the nature of how political process works, sometimes.

Keith Weinhold 23:45

in the broad business world, large institutional corporations, they're often pro regulation for just the reason you talked about it helps put smaller operators out of business that can't bear the expense of dealing with the regulation. But yeah, your film Shabbification, it helps underscore the fact that rent control, it stifles the free market in the process of price discovery. I mean really that price discoveries, that is the process of supply versus demand, with the referee being the price and finding that right rent amount, and amidst this low housing supply we have, it's just really bad timing for any jurisdiction to enact rent control. Existing landlords stop improving property. Builders stop building new property, and it can make landlords want to sell, like we touched on earlier. But also I'd like to talk about making the other case, the case for rent control. When we come back, we're talking with public policy expert Jan siderova, the maker of a film called shabbatation, where we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at. Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President changley Ridge personally. Start now, while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com that's Ridge lendinggroup.com.

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Caeli Ridge 26:32

This is Ridge Lending Group's president, Caeli Ridge. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and remember, don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 26:52

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with a really interesting guest, Jen Sidorova. She's the maker of a new film called Shabbification. This centers on rent control and dilapidated housing conditions. And Jen, you know, I've talked about here on both this episode and another episode a few weeks ago about the deleterious downstream consequences of rent control. It benefits a small group of people in the short term and ends up with deteriorated neighborhoods in a lot of municipalities, but I like to look at things from the other side. What is the case for rent control?

Jen Sidorova 27:27

So I think the the original story behind the rent control in New York City was that in the 70s, it was just really dire situation, kind of what we're going through right now. Right now in New York we have the housing crisis that's the worst in the last 50 years, so basically right around the 70s again. So the current vacancy rate is like 2% and at the same time, we have between 20 to 60,000 rent stabilized rent control units that are vacant because landlords just do not want to put them in more on the market, because talking just in New York City here, yeah, just New York City. And New York City has roughly 1 million of rent stabilized or rent control properties altogether. But yeah, so what is the case for rent control, right? So in my opinion, what is the most problematic saying about rent control or rent stabilization right now, the way the current laws are in New York City is that the property itself is being stabilized or controlled. It's not the person. It doesn't matter how much money you're making. If you're making half a million dollars, you can still live in an apartment that's like 500 $600 a month, right?

Keith Weinhold 28:38

You can have your second lavish vacation home out in the Hamptons, and it doesn't matter.

Jen Sidorova 28:42

Yeah, you can live in Texas for like, nine months out of a year, and come back to New York City for the summer, and then people do that. That's like, not, I'm not making it up. It's a real thing. People are basically hoarding these rent stabilized rent control units, and they just never let them go. And that definitely pushes out young people out of the city. It pushes immigrants out of the city, because people, yeah, all the newcomers. So that's what's going on. So instead of having a property itself being controlled, what could be done? Maybe like a voucher program, maybe like a housing voucher program, but we can only do this if we let the rent control and rent stabilization laws sunset. So once the current tenants move out, that has to be put back on the market, right? So what we could do is the housing voucher program maybe, so that we will always have people in the society that need a little bit of help, but it shouldn't be in such a way that they it's the landlord who is paying for it, right? So if there's a housing voucher, they can live wherever and however that program works in the sense that whoever picks up the rest of the bill, as long as it's not a landlord directly. Yeah, so that's how I see it. And I think just other things that can be done is better zoning regulation that allow more buildings to be built a lot of New York City. Is like a museum, right? We have a lot of historic buildings, a lot of preservation of all the buildings, but we have to reevaluate that, because we don't necessarily have to have the East Village look like a museum if we don't have enough housing, right? So we have to reassess of how much of those policies we still want to hold on to, and then maybe also building codes. Sometimes it's really hard to expand or have more units within the same building. If I have a four unit property and I want to convert it into five units, I am subject to whole different regulation and a whole different bunch of coding, whereas my square footage remains the same. So I think we have to revisit that, because a lot of these new materials that we work with when building are safe right now. So maybe we could let people do more with their properties, and that way we provide more house.

Keith Weinhold 30:50

Yeah. Well, some of this comes down to, how do you get politicians to say no to rent control, which I believe is part of the motivation of your film?

Jen Sidorova 31:01

Right, So the motivation behind myself was that I bought my property in 2019 I went under contract in 2019 and I fully acquired the rights in March of 2020 and between the August of 2019 and 2020 we had a new law passed that was housing stability and Tenant Protection Act 2019 in New York State, and that kind of put a cap on how much I can raise the rent if the tenant remains the same. And at the time when I found that out, I was like, well, that's kind of quirky, but whatever, what can I do? But then a year from that, like in 2021 we had a new mayoral candidate who was a socialist, openly socialist person, and they were advocating for rent control. And at the time, I had an opportunity to go to do a film workshop, and I was thinking, so what is that I really wanted to write film about? And I was this, definitely rent control, because it's relevant for me. It's the story of my people among small property owners, and that's how I did it. And I really want policy action. The idea behind this film, the goal is policy change, right? But this short film is only the beginning of my project, which is exploration of the topic prevent control in the state of New York and everywhere else in the country, and we keep interviewing more people, more experts, and to convert into a larger film, and then hopefully, like a full feature documentary, in order to educate both policymakers and the public about what rent control can do. And eventually, we do hope for policy change in New York, and hopefully, with this film, no more new rent control can happen, or at least when politicians start those bills, they take a look and talk to me and make some changes.

Keith Weinhold 32:52

Well, you're really doing some good work there. I appreciate that. I mean, rent control is analogous to price controls, and we see what happens when there's price controls per se foods like you've seen in other nations in previous decades, and that's how you end up with bread lines, because producers don't want to produce bread when they would have to take a loss and they can't profit on selling that bread. You see a shortage of housing come up just the same, like you do with bread. Well, tell us some more about Buffalo and its market. You had touched on it previously. I think they have lots of older two to four unit buildings there. It sounds like you found one of the four plexes where you could do the owner occupied thing. FHA, three and a half percent down 12 month owner occupancy period. Minimum credit score only needs to be 580 at last check, which is the same way I began with the four Plex building. But yeah, let's learn more about the buffalo housing market. Just a little bit there with rental properties and then the rising tide against Airbnb, like you touched on last month when we met in person.

Jen Sidorova 33:56

Right, so a lot of those properties, a lot of those older homes, were built around the late 1800s beginning or 1900 and that's how they used to build back in the day. Because what would happen is that a large Victorian home with two primarily stories, with two large floors and then maybe an attic and a basement, but one family would live on one floor and another on the second floor. So they were originally built for two homes, but at that time, both families would own that space, right? So there would be co owned by two families. Mine was also an originally a two family home that was converted into a four unit because the previous owners made an addition a lot of young families, that's how they start when they cannot afford a single family home. That's how they start with home ownership and the money that they make for with the rentals. That's how they pay mortgage partially, or maybe that's how they pay the taxes, depending on where you live in the city, sometimes tax burden can alone be very high. So as I've mentioned, we had some mayoral candidates talking about rent control, but recently we started having Airbnbs being regulated in Buffalo. And so there's a few districts in the city where Airbnb is regulated, and my district does not fall into that, and I actually am on four of my units. One is occupied by me. Two are long term tenants, and one which is the newest and the nicest one. I decided to make Airbnb interesting because I did not want to risk, you know, giving it to a long term tenant, because it's just such a nice unit. It's a lot of investment that went in there, so I didn't want it to be provided by somebody who would never leave, because the, you know, environment is just so toxic. You just don't want to take chances, unless you like, really believe in the time. But I don't know people are out here. So I decided to keep it Airbnb. And so because some of the other parts of the city are regulated, and mine is not. I am the beneficiary of that regulation because I get a lot, all of those clients, right, all those Airbnb client so in that sense, funny enough, I am benefiting from some parts of the city being regulated because my my part is not. So all the clients go to me. I do have an Airbnb right now, but we're definitely at the risk of all of the city being regulated. And I think a lot of people complain, right? People who lived in the city for a long time, allegedly, they started complaining to the city council about not recognizing their neighborhood because of Airbnb. But I think what legislators need to understand is that my generation, millennials and Gen Z. That's how we live our lives. We share our assets, right? It's like a big millennial and Gen Z thing that the Airbnb itself is a millennial thing, that this is just will be recognized, that assets like cars and houses, they can be shared, you don't have to have that many of them, even from the unit in the unit that I live in. When I I went out on a trip to Long Island last week, and I airbnbied my own unit. And so that's just how it is. That's just a little lifestyle. And when I see new people who stay in Airbnb on my street, it doesn't bother me. I kind of enjoy a little bit of a variety. But, you know, sometimes it's almost like a culture clash or a generational shift when it comes to thinking about properties and housing ownership. Yeah, that's just my experience.

Keith Weinhold 37:33

Younger generations embrace the sharing economy, and that is quite the mixed use building that you have there with your four Plex in Buffalo, you've got one unit that's a primary residence, a second unit that's a short term rental, and then two long term rental units. There's some diversification of income and utility, for sure. Well, Jen, tell us more about how our audience can connect with you, and especially how they can watch Shabbification.

Jen Sidorova 38:00

So Shabbification, right now is in the film festival circuit, so it's not available to watch yet. Although, if anyone reaches out directly to me through Instagram, my handle is @Jen_Sidorova, which is my first underscore, my last name, anyone can just reach out directly to me and I will send them a screener, and they can watch the full film. And also on my Instagram page, I do put a lot of like other content about buildings, and a lot of like videos so and some, you know, B roll footage that we haven't used in the film, but you can watch it in my Instagram. So yeah, definitely check it out. I also do write for Reason Foundation, and you can find it on my profile, my policy writing work. You can find it at reason.com and it's just under my name, pretty much Instagram and reason website.

Keith Weinhold 38:51

Jen, thanks so much for your Shabbification project. I really think it's going to help people see an important part of American society in a different light. It's been great having you here on the show.

Jen Sidorova 39:02

Thank you so much.

Keith Weinhold 39:09

I talked to Jen some more outside of our interview. Her buffalo four Plex has a high flying 1.04% rent to price ratio. I crunched it out that is super strong for a four unit building, but it is older, and like she said in the interview, she did make some substantial renovation to it, yeah, rent control is a bad plan. You know, on an episode a few weeks ago, I mentioned to you about last month's White House proposal for a sort of rent control light, that was such a bad plan. I told you that it only applies to property owners of 50 plus units, and rent increases were capped at 5% a year. Well, I dug into that release from the White House briefing room, and it's almost like they know it won't work, because. Oh my gosh, this is almost humorous. Economists and any long term thinkers will tell you that rent control doesn't work because you won't get any new builds. Well, the White House release Wood said it won't apply to new builds. It's almost like someone told them, like, hey, this won't work for that reason. So then they wrote that sentence in there, which just undermines so much of it. And economists will also tell you that what doesn't work because owners don't want to improve property well, yet, the White House release actually said it would not apply to substantially renovated property. I mean, my gosh, with these carve outs and all the other caveats that are in it that I described a few weeks ago, this White House rent control planet has no shot of going anywhere. It is lip service virtue signaling, and also would not get past a divided Congress. Really bad plan. In fact, how doomed to failure is wide scale rent control. Well, don't worry, the federal government hasn't regulated rent on private buildings since World War Two. Yeah, it's been 80 years, and it took World War Two scale conditions to bring it. Thanks again to today's guest, Jen Sidorova, with reason.com. Again, like I mentioned earlier, if you want to deploy some of your more liquid funds for a potential 8% return at the same place where I've been getting an 8% return for years, you can make a loan to a long standing real estate company for their property rehabs and other operations. This might really help you out. You can learn more by texting FAMILY to 66866, lots of great shows coming up here at GRE to actionably build your Real Estate Wealth until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your daydream.

Unknown Speaker 41:53

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Keith Weinhold 42:21

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514: Zoning Out: How to Combat the Housing Crisis and Build Wealth
12 aug· Get Rich Education
Research Director for California YIMBY, professional city planner and author of Arbitrary Lines, Nolan Gray, joins us to discuss how zoning impacts our communities, affordability of retail and commercial real estate.

Zoning laws contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it.

Shifting from NIMBY to YIMBY mindset requires understanding benefits of growth.

How zoning laws prevent new development, causing housing shortages and limiting entrepreneurship.

California's statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units can be seen as a successful zoning reform example.

We discuss how cities like Austin and Minneapolis have seen price stabilization by allowing for more mid-rise multi-family housing near transit and job-rich areas.

Learn how to connect with local policymakers and planners to advocate for policy changes that encourage more housing supply.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/514

You can follow Nolan on X @mnolangray

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, if you don't take the right action, inflation will make you poorer. Then the affordable housing crisis keeps your tenant as your tenant is zoning. What's ruining American cities in keeping starter homes unaffordable or just plain extinct in some areas, how do we get more apartments and more density built today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Ugh. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:38

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:54

Welcome to GRE from Calgary, Alberta to Tirana Albania and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. When most investors think about inflation, they get it mostly wrong. Their strategy is inflation hedging. And you know, even if you successfully hedge inflation, you are really missing out. You've really got to get fired up about beating inflation. When did you get your first job? Like your first real job in your life? Let's say you did that when you were age 18. Well, that work that you did when you were 18, that created value for somebody else. And you could have done anything with your valuable youth, but instead, you chose to provide value by focusing your time and your energy to sweep floors or enter data into a spreadsheet for somebody else. You were paid for that work that you did. You were paid in dollars, well, if you just tried to store your finite energy that you expended for that employer into dollars, you will lose. Your value will be coerced away from you by your government that just incessantly and relentlessly debases the dollar that you earned at age 18, because they just keep printing more of them. Well, that money printer, which creates the inflation is then an extraction of your resources. Yeah, they extracted your resources, of your time, energy and ingenuity away from you when you were 18, and even the work that you do today, its value will get extracted away from you too. If you say, store dollars under your mattress, if you instead invest it so that its growth rate keeps up with inflation, well, then all you've done is hedge inflation. My point is, get upset about how the system extracts resources from you. And my other point is, don't hedge. Hedge just means that you're treading water. Position yourself to win instead, because you can when you buy income producing property with a loan, you don't just hedge against the inflation. You win three ways at the same time. You probably know that's called the inflation Triple Crown, a concept that I coined. You can watch the three part video series on net, free. It's now easier than ever to access, learn how to actually profit from inflation, not just hedge yourself against it. You can watch that, and it's friction free. There's no email address to leave or anything. Simply watch learn and maybe even be amazed at how you can do this. Those three videos are available. At getricheducation.com/inflationtriplecrown, that's sort of long, so you can also get there with getricheducation.com/itc. Again, that's getricheducation.com/itc. Before we talk with our guests about how zoning is making the affordable housing crisis, even worse, housing values and rents are really looking stable in today's environment. CoreLogic tells us that single family rents are up 3.2% annually. That's the highest rate in a year. And when it comes to prices, the NAR tells us that existing single family home prices hit a record high of $426,900 and that is an all time high. And note that that's existing homes, not new. So median existing homes are basically 427k now. And what does that really mean? Well, that is up 4.1% year over year, the real estate market continues to be it's sort of this tale of the equity rich versus the affordability challenged. Are you equity rich or are you affordability challenged? Well, the more property that you own, the more equity rich you are feeling, that you're going to feel, and oftentimes you're renting out property to the affordably challenged. Of course, the big buzz and a potential really turning point in the economy here or not, it really began about 10 days ago. That's when America reported weak jobs numbers, and that set the unemployment rate from 4.1% up to 4.3%. Citigroup and JP Morgan are now predicting half point Fed rate cuts in both September and November, not just quarter point cuts anymore. I mean, gosh, if there's one thing that we really know, it's that nobody really knows anything. Starting about two years ago, everyone thought a recession was eminent. Bloomberg even said there was a 100% chance that we'd have one by last year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Everyone thought there would be six or seven Fed rate cuts this year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't even completely count out of rate cut at the next meeting. I mean, sheesh, before that time, we still have two new CPI reports to come out and another jobs report. So, you know, over the long term, this is just how people act. They tend to get ahead of themselves and overreact, and that's really more of a stock market investor sort of thing. And yeah, despite the volatility, you know, us real estate investors are here more chill than Snoop Dogg was at the Olympics. All this fear, what it does is it pushes money into bonds. And when money goes into bonds, it makes mortgage rates go down, and they recently hit 16 month lows near 6.4% and if rates stay low, millions of additional Americans will be able to qualify to buy property that couldn't before, and that could really put more upward pressure on property prices, more than this 4.1% year over year appreciation that we're currently seeing. We know that lots of investors are buying properties like you, getting equity rich and serving the affordability challenge. In fact, 60% of Home Builders indicated that they sold homes to investors from February through April, while 40% reported that they didn't sell to investors. And investors now represent wholly 25% of both new and resale residential transactions and among builders that sold to investors in the past 90 days, 69% of them sold to mom and pop investors. Mom and pop investors, they're loosely defined as those that own one to 10 rental units. They may very well be you. Institutional investors, those that own 10 plus investment properties in this home builders definition here. Well, those institutional investors, they accounted for just 4% of investor sales nationally. So again, more home builders are selling to small real estate investors, those that own one to 10 units. Well, now in almost 10 years of doing the show here, we've never had a full discussion about zoning, and really this is the time. Okay, this ends today because we describe how it's contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. I mean, anymore you really can't find a brand new build 250k starter home anymore, unless maybe it's a tiny home, which then really isn't a full home, and you sacrifice your lifestyle. Well, zoning is a big reason why the Supreme Court decision that deemed zoning constitutional that occurred in 1926. Yes, that's going to turn 100 in the year 2026 that Supreme Court decision that infamously referred to apartments as parasites. Wow. But yet is some zoning good? I mean, say that you and your family have your nice, quiet, single family home on an idyllic half acre lot. Well, if that's the case, should it be allowed that Bitcoin mining facility with its loud cooling fans is built right next to you I'll ask our guest expert about that, and what about say less offensive transgressions, like a condo board that says that you can't rent your unit out. How much zoning is too much or too little? I mean, is someone just being overly sensitive if a duplex is built next to their single family home and they complain about that? So we'll get into all of that. And it really comes down to limiting this McMansionization risk type of nimbyism, not in my backyardism. That's what it is. Again, you can watch the three free videos on how you can substantially and actionably profit from inflation, not hedge, but profit from inflation. It's the inflation triple crown. Be sure to check out those three videos at getricheducation.com/itc. I learned about this week's guest through reason.com we met in person at last month's Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. He is the research director for California Yimby, yes. Yimby, not NIMBY, that is yes in my backyard. And he's a professional city planner. He's the author of the book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Welcome to GRE. Nolan Gray,

Nolan Gray 12:24

thanks so much, Keith. It's a pleasure to be with you, Nolan,

Keith Weinhold 12:26

you wrote one article for reason.com with such an interesting title, five words, Abolish Zoning-All of it, you're pretty emphatic there at what you'd like to have happen before we discuss that, why don't you tell us in your words what zoning is?

Nolan Gray 12:44

So for the past 100 years, America's cities have been running a grand experiment and how they're governed. Essentially, what we've done, beginning in the 1920s is we said for every single parcel in the city, we're going to assign an allowed use. So most people, if you've played Sim City, you know this might be residential, commercial, industrial, but it goes into so much more detail than that. Different types of residential might be allowed in different parts of the city, commercial, etc, and the vast majority of most American cities, the only form of residential that's allowed is a detached, single family home, right? So that's one half of it, the second half of what zoning is doing, it's placing arbitrary density limits. So the amount of actual housing or amount of floor area that you can build on any particular lot. And it's important to distinguish this from other forms of land use regulation, because in many cases, these rules aren't actually based on any health or safety concerns, but instead a sort of social project of engineering what a correct city should look like. And as I argue in the book and we can discuss over the course of this conversation, is I argue that these rules have actually had incredible harms for our cities and are at the root of our current housing affordability crisis.

Keith Weinhold 13:45

I think zoning initially, it began in New York City about 100 years ago.

Nolan Gray 13:50

Yeah, so New York City adopted one of the first modern zoning ordinances in 1916 a handful of other cities did so as well. So I'm coming to you from California, Berkeley, California also adopted zoning in this year. And essentially, what happened after New York City adopted it was the federal government put together what's called the standard zoning Enabling Act. They mailed that out to every single state in the country and started putting a lot of pressure on states to adopt zoning and allow local governments to adopt zoning. And then, with the rise of the Federal financial system, as part of the New Deal, housing programs. In many cases, local governments were required or strongly, strongly incentivized to adopt the zoning codes to be eligible for certain federal benefits.

Keith Weinhold 14:29

You know, maybe philosophically, one might think, Nolan, well, America stands for freedom, and I should get to do what I want with my plot of land. But if everyone can do whatever they want with their plot of land. I mean, does that mean that my neighbor then could start a sloppy hog farm, or the neighbor on the other side of me could start a battery factory with smoke stacks? So do those sort of things help make the case for zoning?

Nolan Gray 14:57

Yeah, that's a great question, you know. So before the rise of zoning. And we actually had a lot of rules for these classic nuisances, these classic externalities, things like smoke, smells, noise, or even just lots and lots of traffic generation. We had rules to say, Hey, if you want to operate certain types of uses, you need to be in a certain designated area where we're going to tolerate a much higher level of externalities. Zoning does that, but it also does so much more. And it's those other aspects that I think are ill conceived. So for example, of course, we don't want a slaughterhouse next to a single family home, but zoning might also say, Oh, by the way, you're not allowed to have a duplex next to a single family home. You're not allowed to start a home based business. You're not allowed to operate certain commercial uses out of certain strip malls in certain parts of the city. You're not allowed to build anything unless you have a certain amount of number of off street number of off street parking spaces, which can make adaptive reuse of historic properties very difficult. So I think absolutely there's a core of land use regulation that makes sense, that's focused on neighbors, not imposing costs on each other, but our current system goes so much further than that, in many ways, imposes new and unconceived costs, including increasing housing prices, limiting housing options in many of our neighborhoods, making it harder to start a business or to have neighborhoods serving retail in many of our neighborhoods.

Keith Weinhold 16:09

So perhaps zoning has just simply gone too far, and you touched on it earlier. It seems to me that about three quarters of the area of most cities have zoning restricted only to single family home building, for example, and they ban apartments completely. So maybe, as we try to find the right balance of how much zoning is right, tell us more about really the thesis of your book and why we should ban zoning completely.

Nolan Gray 16:38

Of course, we need certain regulations for externalities and nuisances, and to certain extent that can be resolved through litigation, but ideally you look for it and you say, okay, look, there are certain areas where we're going to tolerate certain nuisances and other places where we will not. But beyond that, I think so much of what our land use regulations do is actually causing harm. It's preventing property owners from using their property in ways that are not in any meaningful sense, harmful to their neighbors. It's created this context where now if you want to build just about anything in the typical American city, you have to go through multiple public hearings, you have to do an environmental report in some states, you have to get the permission of local elected officials, you have to undertake all these actions that heavily politicize every new development. And so what we get is so many of our neighborhoods and so many of our cities are locked in amber. And this is partly why, over the last few years, where we've seen a huge amount of demand flow into housing, we've simply had these extreme shortages because markets could not respond with the supply that many of our communities needed. So for example, a starter home in many US cities today might be a townhouse, it might be a two bedroom condo, it might be a single family home on a 2500 square foot lot, but those are precisely the forms of housing that in many cases, our zoning codes make illegal to build. So we're essentially saying if you can't afford at least a certain level of housing, you're not allowed to live in many parts of the community, if in the community altogether, or the same with businesses, if you want to start a small business that might not necessarily have any impact on your neighbors, you might require a special permit. You might require a hearing. You might require to attend a hearing where your competitors are going to show up and oppose your project, purely on a cynical basis. So what it's done is it's created this incredibly disruptive system that's prevented our cities from being entrepreneurial and adaptive, and I think this is the root of a lot of the problems that we're facing today.

Keith Weinhold 18:17

Oh, you really surface some good points there Nolan, when I think of over zoning, and we talk about how a lot of times you can't build anything more than a single family home, that certainly creates a lot of problems. Gentrification is sort of a bad word, kind of sprucing up community so much, raising the value so much, that one problem is that familial bonds decay when children that grew up in, say, Southern California, can no longer afford to live there, so they have to move to lower cost Las Vegas, a four to five hour drive away. Excessive gentrification. You touch that, it also harms mobility. If you want to move from Atlanta to Boston for a tech job but you can't find housing, you're not going to move there, so therefore, talent doesn't get matched up with opportunity.

Nolan Gray 19:07

That's exactly right. I mean, this is a at the national scale. This is an important piece of the puzzle, which is we've made it hardest to actually move to some of our most productive places. So as you mentioned, places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, New York City, for all their problems, these are incredibly productive places where folks can move to and get high paying jobs and other good educational opportunities, but in many cases, these are the most expensive cities in our country, and it's in no small part because of the many rules and regulations that make it so hard to build housing in those contexts. So you're exactly right. Folks actually turn down higher paying jobs or better opportunities and move to places simply because the housing is more affordable, and you pick up on a really important piece of this, which is in many cases, this is breaking apart families. So a lot of folks who are born and raised in a place like California, their parents might have been able to buy their home in the 70s or 80s or 90s, but they can't afford a home. They have no long term path to actually staying in the community. And so what you're actually seeing is neighborhoods and communities being ripped apart. If the situation in places like California has actually got to be so bad that many of the people who are in a certain sense, beneficiaries of the status quo, maybe they own their home and they're seeing the value go up and up and up. They're also saying, Oh, my children can't afford to live near me. I don't ever get to see my grandkids. The person who serves me at the hospital or at the supermarket can't afford to live here, and we're having trouble keeping folks on. The crisis got to be so bad in certain places like California that we're starting to see tremors of reform. But one of the things I like to say is, if you want to fall into a California style housing crisis, most parts of the country don't need to do anything the rules you have on the books have you moving in that trajectory, right? But if you want to remain a place where we can build more housing, where folks can buy their own home or buy small apartment buildings and start to build wealth, you have to allow for more supply to come online.

Keith Weinhold 20:42

Sure, zoning so that you can't build anything other than single family homes compounds the affordability crisis. There really just isn't any such thing as a 250k starter home anymore, anywhere. You represent California, yimby and you live there in the state where people think of ground zero for excessive regulation and taxation and zoning too. I do read more about some zoning being relaxed in California, allowing for the building of an adu on a property, for example, to help build the density. But before you talk about some of the cracks that are actually starting to help break this down. Can you give any bad examples that are especially problematic there in your home state, Nolan?

Nolan Gray 21:27

For the past 50 or 60 years, California, has been stuck under a NIMBY paradigm, not in my backyard, right? Every single new project is politically contentious, has to undertake an environmental report, has to undergo multiple public reviews, it takes years and years to get a permit, and that's if the housing is legal to build at all. As you know, in so many parts of California, there's very little to no new construction happening, and that's because of the rules on the books that make it so hard to build. To the extent that we allow new housing to be built, we have a whole bunch of mandates that force the housing to be a lot more expensive, and even if all that pencils again, it can take two years to get fully entitled in a permit. And so of course, the only housing that actually ends up getting built is quite expensive. And some folks say, Well, if we allow new housing to be built in California, it's all expensive. Well, yes, if you only allow a trickle of new housing in a very expensive context, of course the new housing is going to be expensive. But if you look to places like Texas and Florida, for example, that build lots and lots of new housing and don't have all of these costly mandates, they actually can build a lot of new housing, and actually can keep prices relatively under control and create that new supply of what we call missing middle, low rise housing. So as you mentioned, the tide, I think, is turning in California. The silver lining of things getting so bad is that the culture is shifting. And what we've seen is the emergence of this new yimby movement, or yes, in my backyard. And these are folks are saying, hey, not only is not building more, not this horrible threat to my community, but it's actually this enriching opportunity. It's good to have a growing, healthy, affordable community where folks are building, folks are able to move to high opportunity jobs, and folks are able to have choice in the neighborhood they live in.

Keith Weinhold 22:55

We're talking about zoning and how that's made the affordable housing crisis worse in the United States with California, yimbys, Nolan, gray Nolan. Tell us more about just the exact sorts of codes that are problematic. We touched on apartment building bans, but I think we're also looking at things like off street parking requirements. You need to have so many off street parking spaces before you can build. Otherwise you can't build. You need to have a minimum lot size of a half acre or a quarter acre in order to build here. So can you talk more specifically about just some of those exact problems on the tactical level that are compounding here?

Nolan Gray 23:34

Yeah, that's exactly right. So where are the housings illegal to build altogether. In many cases, there are a whole bunch of rules that increase the price of that housing. So in urban context, for example, where you might want to be building apartments, many cases, you might have parking requirements that say, Well, you have to have two parking spaces per unit or one parking space per bedroom. In many cases, that's what consumers might demand, and you would have to build that to lease out those units or to sell those condos. But if you're building in a context where you might be near a transit line, or you might be near a university campus, or you might be near a major job center, many of your renters might say, hey, actually, I would prefer to have a more affordable rental or a more affordable condo, because we know that there's no such thing as free parking. You know, if it requires a structure or excavation work, parking can easily add $50,000 to the price of a new unit, and so some consumers might want to pay for that, eat that cost, have a parking space. But many consumers, when we relax these rules and say, Hey, developers, you have the incentives and the local knowledge needed to decide how much parking to build. In many cases, we find that they share parking with other uses, so commercial during the day and residential at night, or they allow renters to opt into parking and to pay for parking, but what you get for many households is a cheaper unit. Now another rule that you mentioned, which is very important, is minimum loss size rules. This is certainly a lot more relevant. More relevant and suburban and rural context. But what we say is, if you want to be able to have a single family home, you have to be able to afford at least a certain amount of land. Now, when if you have a context where you don't have water and sewer installed, and you're operating on septic and well water, you do need larger lots as a matter of public health, but in most suburban context, these rules essentially serve no function except to increase the price of housing and the ability to determine what type of housing can be built where is the ability to determine who gets to live where. So if we say, well, you're not allowed to live in this neighborhood unless you can afford a 10,000 square foot lot or a 20,000 square foot lot, what we're essentially doing in 2024 where land is a major factor in affordability, is we're saying that a whole bunch of middle working class households are not allowed to live in these neighborhoods, or they're not allowed to ever become homeowners and start building wealth in the same way that past generations did. And you look at places like Houston, for example, where they don't have zoning, but they have a lot of zoning-like rules. In 1998 they reduced their minimum lot sizes from 5000 square feet citywide to 1400 square feet citywide. And what this did was this kicked off a townhouse and small lot single family home building boom that has helped to keep cities like Houston affordable a whole new supply of starter homes that again, offered that first step on the ladder of home ownership and wealth building.

Keith Weinhold 25:52

Over the decades, home prices have outpaced incomes. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is inflation, with wages not keeping up with the real rate of inflation, but the other are barriers to development. We're talking more about that with Nolan gray. When we come back, you're listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com. That's RidgeLendingGroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation, let the Liquidity Fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account. The minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.

Robert Kiyosaki 27:50

This is our Rich Dad, Poor Dad author, Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and the reason I respect Keith, he's a very strong, smart, bright young man.

Keith Weinhold 28:14

Welcome back to Get Rich Education . We're talking with California, yimbys Nolan gray about zoning and how these barriers to development are compounding the affordable housing crisis, and there sure are a number of barriers to multi family production. I really think that's what wild it comes down to. You touched on it earlier, and it's something that I spoke about with our audience a month or two ago. Nolan, and that is, mmm, multi families, missing middle these two to four unit properties, duplexes to fourplexes, where they're only constructing about 40% as many of those here in recent years than they did 20 to 30 years ago. The way I think of it is when you lift barriers to multifamily production, of course, you incentivize builders. If a developer buys an acre of land for, say, $90,000 and they had planned to build one unit on that All right? Well, there's one set of inputs in income that a developer can look at. But instead, if you allow them to go from building one unit on this plot of land to two units on it, it increases their profit potential, and it incentivizes developers from that side as well.

Nolan Gray 29:23

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so there's been some great work by some friends over at the American Enterprise Institute. What they've done is they've created a nationwide map of mcmassionization risk. So when we have these conversations, we say, hey, let's allow for a range of housing typologies in more neighborhoods, duplexes, triplexes, small, low rise, multi family buildings, townhouses, the types of things that were commonly built in a range of neighborhoods before the rise of zoning. Every city in America has a neighborhood like this. That's a mixture of housing typologies. It would be illegal to build that today, but in many cases, we subject it to preservation requirements because we value it so much that we want to keep it. In any case, what happens when you don't allow that type of gradual incremental infill that keeps our communities affordable. What you get instead is the existing single family homes are converted into much larger, much more expensive single family homes. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with that. Many people might want to buy a smaller 19 fizzies bungalow and turn it into a much larger, 2500 square foot single family home, and God bless them if they want to do it. But what we have is rules on the books that say housing can only get more expensive, it can never get more affordable, or you can never unlock the wealth that's tied up in your land by building an adu or by building a duplex, or by creating more housing options for a range of households. And so that's really, really key. You know, the choice is not between, do we want our communities to change or not? The question is, do we want our communities to remain affordable and maybe change and have some more buildings built and more growth and more development. Or do we want our communities to change in the sense of they become more expensive? Folks retire and they move away, the neighborhood gradually becomes significantly more exclusionary, and young folks who moved grew up in the community can no longer afford to stay. That's the option facing many of our communities. And I think the yimby response to this is more housing construction is good and it's healthy and it's part of a thriving community.

Keith Weinhold 31:02

Yeah, Nolan, when we come at this from the familial perspective, like I brought up earlier, it seems like the more zoning there is, the more it benefits seniors and incumbents, the more it benefits the silent generation, the baby boomer generation, and maybe Gen Xers, and it disadvantages millennials and Gen Zers that really don't have their place yet.

Nolan Gray 31:24

Yeah, you know, it's tough. I would say it even hurts seniors, right? I mean, if they want their young adult children to be able to live near them, or, many cases, seniors like the option to be able to build an accessory dwelling unit in their backyard and maybe rent that out to friends or family, or maybe even you move into the adu and allow young adult children to move into the primary residence, or even just rent it out and have an additional source of income to supplement fixed incomes. There's reasons why folks, I think, at all different stages of their life, benefit for more flexibility in the rules that govern what can be built.

Keith Weinhold 31:52

Psychologically, how do we turn one's mindset from a NIMBY mindset to a yimby mindset? I mean, if someone's got their single family ranch home that they want to live in in their senior years, and they want to see its value appreciate, so they don't want duplexes and fourplexes built next to them, rather than them saying no to turn them into saying yes. I mean, how do you get those people to understand that? Well, like this is the way for the next generation, for you to be able to live near your children and grandchildren?

Nolan Gray 32:21

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think when you go to these public hearings around projects, you hear relentlessly about the cost of new development, right? Folks speculating about traffic and runoff and other factors parking. We get that perspective. We get bombarded with that perspective. But what we don't get is the alternative perspective of the benefits of a community, remaining relatively affordable, remaining a place where teachers and nurses and firefighters can still afford to be able to own a home and live places, allowing for the kids who grew up in a neighborhood or a city to remain there. And in fact, even just the selfish appeal to the homeowner, there's not actually any evidence that new development happening around you necessarily reduces the price of your single family home, and in some cases, it could actually signal to the market, hey, there's actually development potential on this so when you do decide to maybe sell and move on, your land is potentially going to be more valuable because it has more development potential than it might under a strict exclusionary zoning scenario. So you know, of course, you try to make the altruistic case to people. Hey, think about future generations. Think about folks who maybe want to move to this community or stay in this community, but aren't going to be able to if we don't build housing. But even so, I think there's selfish reasons. If you want to have somebody who's going to check you out at the supermarket or serve you at a restaurant or be a home care nurse, eventually you got to have housing for folks like that. In many cases, new development happening around you is going to increase your land value. Now I would just try the rage of appeals and work people through it. And in many cases, you know, I think people will understand, yeah, okay, I understand we got to have some growth. They might have a perspective on what it should look like, and that's okay. But as long as we can get some consensus that we got to have some growth to accommodate demand the form it takes, we can have a healthy discussion over.

Keith Weinhold 33:57

Yeah, real community is the integration of all different types of people, and not school teachers living an hour away where they need to make a two hour round trip drive every day. Well, Nolan, as we're winding down here, can you give us any more successful zoning reform examples that maybe other communities can look to you touched on the success stories in Houston a bit. Are there some other ones?

Nolan Gray 34:21

Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the most successful things we've done in California has been statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units. Yeah, that's been key. That started in 2017 and that took a lot of legislation to get us to a place where we are today, but that's resulted in something like 80,00 ADU's permitted, since 2017. That's powerful stuff, right? That's 80,000 households that might have a home, or might be able to rent out a unit to young adult child or an aging parent. Really, really powerful. So I would suggest that folks look into that. That's the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Empower homeowners to add additional units to their properties, and by the way, we also allow you use to be added to multifamily properties, and we're seeing a lot of that happen as well. At other contexts, many cities, dozens of cities across the country. Have removed their minimum parking requirements, acknowledging that, hey, this is a huge cost that we're imposing on projects, developers who are close to consumers, who have, they have the incentives and local knowledge to get this question right. Let them decide. So that's been, I think, a big success. You know, certain cities like Austin and Minneapolis, for example, they've actually sort of kept their markets back under control amid all the chaos of the pandemic real estate market fluctuations by allowing for a lot more mid rise multi family on their commercial corridors and in Job rich areas and in places near transit, that's where we have a huge shortage, is these studios and one bedrooms. So young professionals who, if they can't find that unit, they're going to go bid up the price of a two or three bedroom unit, they're going to roommate up and be living in potentially overcrowded conditions. So Austin, Minneapolis, we, relative to peers, they built a lot of housing and have seen prices stabilize as a result. So there's a lot of different success stories, you know, I would say, if you're at all interested in this, talk to your neighbors about this issue. See what sorts of solutions might make sense for your community. You know, in a suburban or a rural community, ADUs or minimum loss size reform might make sense. And an urban community, removing your parking mandates, allowing for more multifamily, allowing for missing middle, make more sense.

Keith Weinhold 36:06

There sure are some encouraging signs. There was there any last thing that a person should know, especially a real estate investor type audience that's interested in buying a property and renting it out to a tenant for the production of income? Is there anything that our group really ought to know about zoning and the direction that things are moving, what to look for and what to be careful of?

Nolan Gray 36:28

Well, as your audience probably knows, you know that first essential step for your mom and pop local real estate investor is often a duplex, a triplex, a four Plex, historically, that was an absolutely essential source of middle class wealth building. Yeah, right. And you can see these in so many historic neighborhoods. And to the extent that we've made those exact typologies so incredibly hard to build, we've cut off this very valuable source of democratic, decentralized wealth building that we need to actually encourage as real estate investors and professionals, in many cases, you're an authority figure with your local policymakers and your local planners, and you can say to them, Hey, here's my perspective on what's happening in the market. You know, we have a shortage of a certain type of small scale multifamily or making this case. You know, I talked to a lot of elected officials, and when I say starter home, I think they still think of the bungalow on the 5000 square foot lot with the two car garage. But a starter home in 2024 might be a townhouse, two bedroom condo, a small lot, single family home. These are the types of stories that real estate investors and professionals are trusted advocates on, and you can make that case and explain to local policymakers. Hey, here's the change that we need or explaining. Hey, I wanted to add an additional unit to a property that I own, or I wanted to redevelop a property I own to add a lot more housing. And these were the barriers that I faced that's incredibly valuable information for your local policymakers and planners. And I would say, you know, look around many US, cities and states now have very active yimby or, Yes, in my backyard groups. Go connect up with them. You could be a valuable, trusted expert for them, somebody that they can learn more about the situation with real estate markets, and they can be more effective advocates for policy that I think a lot of us would like to see.

Keith Weinhold 37:58

And when it comes to changing NIMBY people to yimby people, and we look at esthetics and adu in the back, that really doesn't change aesthetics on the street front. And I've seen very smart, careful designs of duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes that really look just like single family homes from the Street View level. So there really are some ways around this. You've given us some really good ideas today. Nolan, hey, well, someone wants to learn more about you and your work and zoning. What's the best way for them to do that?

Nolan Gray 38:30

Well, I'm on the platform formerly known as Twitter. I'm @mnolangray, M, N, O, L, E, N, G, R, A, y, so feel free to find me there and reach out. And I have a book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Check that out. If you're at all interested in this, always reach out. Love to hear from folks. Thanks so much for having me, by the way.

Keith Weinhold 38:50

All right, well, I hope our audience didn't zone out. It's been great. Chat with you. Nolan, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Yeah, a thought provoking discussion with California yimbys Nolan Gray there it's essentially illegal to build affordable housing in a lot of areas with the way that these zoning laws are written, allowing for more dense building that can limit this ugly urban sprawl, and this makes me think about an Instagram account that I follow. It's called how cars ruined our cities, or some names similar to that. It shows, for example, a picture of how a highway interchange in sprawling Houston has an area so large that you could fit an entire Italian town inside of it. And these sprawl problems compound when a lot size must be, say, at least a quarter acre or a half acre. The tide is turning toward allowing more dense building in some places like we touched on, but it's too bad that it took a. Visible housing crisis to make this happen. I mean, visible like more homeless people out on the street. It took that almost for municipalities to start doing something about all of this. Our guest has quite a following on X. Again, you can find his handle there @mnolangray on X and the image on his account cover it shows someone holding up a sign that reads, zoning kills dreams. Hmm, big thanks to the terrific Nolan gray today until next Monday, when I'll be back here to help you actionably build your Real Estate Wealth. I'm Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your Daydream.

Unknown Speaker 40:44

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for

profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 41:12

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, GetRichEducation.com.
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