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In the final edition of our four-part podcast series, produced in partnership with Cascale, formerly the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, we discuss the need for collective action and pre competitive collaboration to deliver real impact.
Regular host Philip Berman is joined by Joyce Tsoi, senior director of the decarbonization program at Cascale, and Magnus Dorsch, Head of Corporate Sustainability, at online retail portal About You.
Topics covered
2 minutes What inspires Joyce and Magnus in their work?
4 minutes What is pre-competitive collaboration, its importance generally and for Cascale
5 minutes Its importance for About You and their Fashion Leap for Climate project
7 minutes Where is the mutual benefit of a project like Fashion Leap for Climate?
8 minutes What are the challenges of pre-competitive collaboration, and how has Magnus managed them?
9 minutes How does Magnues collaborate with manufacturers for About You’s private label?
11 minutes Cascale’s collaboration with manufacturers.
13 minutes Magnus’ challenge of working with small manufacturers
14 minutes Joyce and Magnus discuss Cascale’s Manufacturer Climate Action Programme - MCAP
What do manufacturers think about the programme?
Discussion about science-based targets
20 minutes What challenges do manufacturers face in decarbonising?
21 minutes Particular issues with manufacturers sourcing renewable energy in South East Asia.
22 minutes Could manufacturers be focusing on energy efficiency as a first step? What about biomass?
24 minutes Magnus discusses what About You is doing to become more energy efficient and source more renewable energy. They are setting examples as a form of social signalling.
27 minutes Magnus and Joyce leave us with inspiring end messages!
30 minutes End
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This third of a four part podcast series, brought to you in association with Cascale – the new name of the Sustainable Apparel Coalition – features a deep dive into how best to tackle carbon reductions in the global apparel industry and take a closer look at Cascale’s shift from tools to programmes.
Our host Philip Berman sits down with Sean Cady, vice president of global sustainability, responsibility and trade for VF Corporation, and also an elected board director for Cascale, and Andrew Martin, executive vice president of Cascale, for our latest podcast on decarbonising the fashion supply chain.
Andrew Martin begins by outlining the importance of science-based targets to Cascale’s work on decarbonisation and why it has set a requirement for its members to commit to these vital objectives. “Alignment and standardisation is part of our DNA,” he tells Phil
Berman.He also highlights how a standardised approach to supply chain decarbonisation can reduce duplication, reduce confusion, and, importantly for Cascale’s members, allows them to accelerate climate action together.
“The membership requirements are there to provide the pathway – the route. And our role is to provide support,” he explains.
Sean Cady agrees with the benefits offered by signing up to this collaborative approach. “These long term targets have inspired our global teams and all of our suppliers to act in a more purposeful way,” he says. “They (the targets) have also provided key measures aligned with VF’s purpose, which ends with betterment of people and planet.
“They drive internal annual work plans that are actionable, and these plans enable us to complete different projects that all ladder up to the methodical, incremental achievement of goals that are driving toward our 2030 targets.”
Sean Cady also discusses the challenge of reducing scope 3 supply chain emissions which, he tells listeners, account for over 99% of VF’s total emissions. “That’s really where we have to focus,” he says.
Phil Berman and his guests go on to discuss the critical role played by the Higg Index suite of tools, the current regulatory landscape, and the growing urgency of mitigating the impact of global climate change from a textile and apparel perspective.
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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In the second of a four part podcast series in partnership with Cascale, formerly known as the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, we look at the potential impact on the textile industry of revolutionary new EU laws on green claims and eco-design.
Regular host Philip Berman is joined by Elisabeth von Reitzenstein, senior director of public affairs at Cascale and Baptiste Carriere-Pradal, co-founder of the 2BPolicy consultancy.
You can sign up to Cascale's public affairs newsletter, that Elisabeth mentions in the podcast, here.
You can get in touch with Baptiste's consultancy company here.
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Welcome to a new four part podcast series in partnership with Cascale, formerly known as the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, about the big challenges facing the industry, and Cascale's role in co-creating solutions at scale.
The first episode is about Measuring for Impact with host Philip Berman in conversation with:
Quentin Thorel, the Group Head of Sustainability of CIEL Textile with its HQ in Mauritius.
Ciel Textiles supplies fabrics and garments to some of the most iconic fashion brands in the world such as Polo Ralph Lauren, Armani, Hackett, Barbour, Levis, Tommy Calvin Klein, Lacoste and the list goes on and on…
It employs 23,000 people in four countries, Madagascar, Mauritius, India and Bangladesh and since 2019 has used both the Higg Facility Environmental, and Higg Facility Social & Labor Modules across all of its sites.
And Jeremy Lardeau, Senior VP of the Higg Index at Cascale who oversees the strategic direction and development of the Higg Index suite of tools.
Sustainability data and measurement are critical to drive meaningful action, so we ask whether Higg Facility tools (Higg FEM and Higg FSLM) can help users to improve the way they make sustainable decisions, and whether the Higg FEM 4.0 update has brought necessary changes to the tool? We also discuss why the Sustainable Apparel Coalition (SAC) has changed its name to Cascale.
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In the second episode of this podcast series, produced in partnership with the Apparel Impact Institute about its Climate Solutions Portfolio (CSP), we take a look at the tool it's built to help decide who should get the funding, and what a winning application looks like.
As a quick re-cap, the CSP aims to find, feature and fund any initiative, project or piece of tech with the potential to reduce energy use and/or greenhouse gas emissions at scale in the industry.
And it has up to 250,000 dollars per year to award to projects that have the data to show they have the potential to make an impact.
In this episode, Ecotextile News correspondent Phil Patterson and environmental scientist Linda Greer explain how they developed a tool they call the 'Ready Reckoner' – to objectively compare the overall CO2 savings of different innovations and solutions across all parts of the textile manufacturing process.
Phil Patterson told host Phil Berman that he's come up with a punchier, and more colloquial nickname for the tool.
“Apologies for my language, but it's a bit of an ‘eco bullsh*t detector’ because there's lots of innovation out there but there are lots of people overclaiming the benefits that their solutions can deliver."
“What we’ve created is what we call a gas map of the entire supply chain, which is essentially looking at where greenhouse gases emissions occur, allocating a percentage of those emissions to individual processes within the supply chain.
Patterson and Greer talk in detail about how the tool can be used, and how it can be improved in the future as better data becomes available.
And most importantly they both drop some big hints on what they are looking for in applications, with lots of do's and don'ts.
Applications are open from 1 to 31 March, 2024.
To find out more about the Portolio, do check out its dedicated site where you can also contact their team if you need help with your application.
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In partnership with the Apparel Impact Institute, Philip Berman takes an in-depth look at its new The Climate Solutions Portfolio which aims to find, feature and fund any initiative with the potential to reduce energy use and/or greenhouse gas emissions at scale in the industry.
And it has up to 250,000 dollars per year to award to projects that have the data to show they have the potential to make a big impact.
In this first episode, Philip Berman was joined by Kurt Kipka, the Apparel Impact Institute's Chief Impact Officer, and Linda Greer, who sits on the Institute's advisory panel and is one of the experts assessing the grant applications.
They talked about, why the Institute believe their new approach is needed, why there is no online registry of proven solutions, and what the Institute is doing about it, how the grants are being funded, and previous winners.
In episode 2, which is released on 29 February, there will be lots of tips on how to apply and what their team is looking for.
Applications open from 1 to 31 March, 2024.
If you want to find out more about the Portolio check out its dedicated site where you can also contact their team if you need help with your application.
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In partnership with the Apparel Impact Institute, host Philip Berman takes an in-depth look at its new The Climate Solutions Portfolio which aims to find, feature and fund any initiative with the potential to reduce energy use and/or greenhouse gas emissions at scale in the industry.
And it has up to 250,000 dollars per year to award to projects that have the data to show they have the potential to make a big impact.
Launching Thursday 22nd February 6am GMT!
Subscribe for free now!!
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To coincide with the week of World Soil Day 2023, our third and final episode of our Threaded Together: cotton and sustainability podcast series, sponsored by Cotton Incorporated, looks at the US Climate Smart Cotton Program- a bold, new and exciting initiative in the US, which aims to measure and improve the country’s cottons’ carbon footprint.
We look at what it is, how it works, who can take part, why it's needed, who benefits from it and why it's of interest to the whole value chain in the textile industry.
To answer these questions, host Philip Berman is joined by:
Daren Abney, the Executive Director of the US Cotton Trust Protocol, which leads on the programme.
Dr Cristine Morgan, Chief Scientific Officer at the Soil Health Institute, which is partner on the programme.
Dr Jesse Daystar, Chief Sustainability Officer at Cotton Incorporated, which is partner on the programme.
Daren Abney tells listeners: "I think this opportunity really came about because the US government is seeing agriculture at scale as an opportunity to address climate challenges."
Soil health expert Dr Morgan explains later in the podcast: "The main thing that we want to do is improve the soil. We want to get carbon out of the atmosphere and we also want to release fewer greenhouse gases into the atmosphere."Here are the factsheets recently released by Dr Morgan that she says demonstrate how soil health management systems are making cotton growers more profitable.
-Factsheet: Economics of Soil Health Management Systems on Eight Cotton Farms in Georgia Factsheet: Economics of Soil Health Systems on Eight Cotton Farms in the Texas Southern Great Plains Webinar: Economics of Soil Health Systems on Eight Cotton Farms in the Texas Southern Great PlainsOther partners in the programme include, Cotton Council International, Agricenter International, North Carolina A&T State University, Alabama A&M University and Texas A&M AgriLife Research.
Cotton Incorporated is a US-based, not-for-profit company, that provides resources and research to help companies develop and market innovative and profitable cotton products.
Cick here for Episode One of Threaded Together: Cotton and Sustainability
and
Click here for Episode Two of Threaded Together: How best to measure cotton's environmental impact.
For a look at our complete podcast archive, click HERE.Subscribe to our podcasts and radio shows by following us on Apple, Google, Spotify and Amazon Music, to automatically get alerts when we launch a new Ecotextile Talks Behind the News podcast.
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In the second of this three-part podcast series: 'Threaded Together' about cotton sustainability, host Philip Berman talks to Dr Jesse Daystar, from Cotton Incorporated and Joel Mertens from the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, about the best way(s) to measure sustainability in the cotton industry and how it can drive change.
Jesse and Joel discuss the purpose of a life cycle assessment (LCA), the different types and, in light of the recent KMPG review of the SAC's Higg Product Module, how they should be used, how they can get misused and their limitations.
Cotton Incorporated is a US-based, not-for-profit company, that provides resources and research to help companies develop and market innovative, and profitable cotton products.
It’s probably best known for its Seal of Cotton trademark which was created 50 years ago, in 1973, and has become an iconic symbol to consumers and is globally recognized by the textile industry.
Subscribe to our podcasts and radio shows by following us on Apple, Google, Spotify and Amazon Music, to automatically get alerts when we launch a new Ecotextile Talks Behind the News podcast.
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Many fashion brands and retailers talk a good game on circularity, but will they ever consistently pay a premium for materials made using 100% textile-to-textile recycling?
Acting CEO of Renewcell Magnus Håkansson joins Ecotextile Talks to discuss the company's current challenges in receiving a higher price for a product offering the circularity so often discussed at textile sustainability conferences.
Despite great industry excitement when Renewcell moved to a full-scale production facility earlier this year, in readiness for full commercialisation, the Swedish innovator has encountered a difficult few months since the summer of 2023.
Share prices have tumbled amid concern that the appetite for Renewcell's proprietary Circulose pulp may not perhaps as high as expected - despite several take-off agreements having suggested this would not be an issue.
The latest instalment of Ecotextile Talks sets out to better understand the situation behind a slump in optimism about the scaling up of a much-discussed company which aims to help fashion firms move away from linear practices.
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In a new three-part sponsored series entitled, Threaded Together, podcast host Philip Berman looks at Cotton Incorporated's role in improving the sustainability of cotton in the textile industry.
Cotton Incorporated a US-based, not-for-profit company, provides resources and research to help companies develop and market innovative, and profitable cotton products.
It’s probably best known for its Seal of Cotton trademark which was created 50 years ago, in 1973, and has become an iconic symbol to consumers and is globally recognized by the textile industry.
In this first episode Philip Berman talks to Dr Jesse Daystar, a Vice President and Chief Sustainability Officer at Cotton Inc; Mary Ankeny, the organisation's Vice President of Product Development and Operations; and Dr Joe Sagues, Assistant Professor in Biological and Agricultural Engineering at North Carolina State University.
They enjoy a wide-ranging discussion covering issues from, the biodegradability of cotton and its impact on microfibre pollution, to pioneering research into composting cotton textile waste to capture CO2.
Subscribe to our podcasts and radio shows by following us on Apple, Google, Spotify and Amazon Music, to automatically get alerts when we launch a new Ecotextile Talks Behind the News podcast.
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Following a report outlining the potential benefits for fashion brands looking to integrate resale into their business model, Ecotextile Talks hears from Andy Ruben, founder of recommerce specialist Trove, who shares his insights on where the greatest opportunities lie.
In a conversation dominated by statistics rather than rhetoric, Ruben speaks to Ecotextile News editor John Mowbray at an industry event in Boston to discuss how Trove worked with sustainable tech platform Worldly to identify the fields in which second-hand apparel can directly improve the economic and environmental outputs of brands.
Rather than casting apparel resale as a solve-all solution, Ruben shares data suggesting successful approaches will always need to be tailored according to variables such as retail price points and will likely prove far more effective for certain market segments.
“When you make items that have value beyond the first sale – which tend to be higher price point items because people can't access them on the first go around – they [consumers] covet those brands, they're strong brands, they want them on the second go around,” Ruben states, referring to the resale suitability of premium, luxury and outdoor apparel.
The episode also dives into how the research, published in Where Are Circular Models Effective Sustainability Strategies for Fashion Brands?, was devised and conducted.
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As a formal partnership between the Sustainable Apparel Coalition (SAC) and International Apparel Federation (IAF) is signed, a key figure involved in the collaborative process speaks to Ecotextile Talks about what the duo hope to achieve.
Andrew Martin, executive vice president of the SAC, sits down with podcast host David Styles to discuss what a memorandum of understanding (MoU) between the two organisations might mean for the fashion and textile industries at large.
When asked about the purpose of the partnership and how the SAC and IAF will quantify success, Martin stated: “It has to be built on relationships, partnerships, the longer term. So I think the big numbers that will come out of it will be things like: are we starting to see a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, as one area.”
The SAC executive vice president also spoke candidly about a need for meaningful change in relation to climate targets cited by some brands and retailers. “I'll be quite bold and say, unless they actually have very strong purchasing practices, very strong relationships with their suppliers, they won't hit their science based targets. They just won't.”
Other topics covered in the episode include audit fatigue, decarbonisation efforts and the value of industry partnerships, as well as the process of attempting to bridge influence gap between manufacturers and the brands and retailers they produce for.
* Episode glossary *
MoU – Memorandum of Understanding
SAC – Sustainable Apparel Coalition
IAF – International Apparel Federation
Higg BRM – Higg Brand & Retail Module
STTI – Sustainable Terms of Trade Initiative
GIZ – Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit (German development agency)
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In an extended episode of Ecotextile Talks, the way in which the apparel sector responds to natural disasters is placed under the microscope.
Podcast host David Styles is this week joined by two guests to discuss reports which respectively shine a light on the past, present and potential future of the industry’s collective response to crises caused by catastrophes such as earthquakes or extreme weather events.
First, Penelope Kyritsis from the Worker Rights Consortium discusses the findings of a white paper exploring the responses of major apparel brands to the devastating earthquake in Turkey earlier this year.
The report brings together the perspectives of 16 fashion brands and 202 suppliers situated in the affected region, with various trends and contradictions highlighted.
In the second part of the programme, Styles is joined by Jason Judd, executive director of Cornell University’s Global Labor Institute, to outline the key strands of a recent study which argues climate breakdown could lead to apparel sector losses of $65 billion without appropriate planning and precautionary measures being taken.
In addition to spotlighting the potential disruption facing the sector – especially in the most ‘climate vulnerable’ garment producing nations, such as Bangladesh, Cambodia, Pakistan and Vietnam – Judd shares his insights on how the sector can best prepare to counteract such risks.
This topic, along with many others, is also the subject of our news videos available via both the Ecotextile Views homepage and @ecotextileviews YouTube channel.
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The latest instalment of the Ecotextile Talks podcast series explores the motivations behind a campaign calling on the fashion industry to move away from conventional care and content labels in favour of digital alternatives.
Steve Lamar, president and CEO of the American Apparel and Footwear Association (AAFA), who is one of the most prominent industry voices behind the #CutTheTape campaign, sits down with Tom Bithell to share his views on why digital solutions such as QR codes ought to be implemented as soon as possible.
The current “extraordinary” situation cannot be perpetuated, he asserts, with enough label tape being produced annually by the apparel sector to “stretch from here from Earth to the moon and back 12 times”.
This, the AAFA boss states, makes labels themselves – regardless of the garment they are affixed to – a “sustainability burden”.
While material usage is a key tenet of the campaign’s case, during this episode Lamar is also pressed on issues such as who would be responsible for the publication and management of garment care and content data as well as the ethics of leaving some consumers at the mercy of the ‘digital divide’ – affecting those members of society without the means or knowhow to access information online.
This topic, along with many others, is also the subject of our news videos available via both the Ecotextile Views homepage and @ecotextileviews YouTube channel.
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Earlier this summer host Phil Berman sat down with Carolina Ledl, Lenzing’s head of product and application management, to discuss the company's ambitious plans to start producing its Ecovero-branded viscose in its manufacturing plant in Indonesia.
Lenzing first launched its ‘EcoVero’ branded viscose in 2017, in response to growing a demand for more transparent viscose fibres. And with the expansion of its dope-dyed ‘Black’ version now imminent, Carolina explains what the company’s €100m expansion plans in South Asia will mean for sourcing both raw materials and reducing energy consumption in this regional manufacturing facility.
She also talks about why the Indonesian plant will shortly start producing ‘Ecovero Black’ and reveals how it uses less water, electricity, and heat than other conventional viscose dyeing processes.
You can subscribe to our podcasts on Apple, Google, Spotify and Amazon Music, and get automatic alerts whenever a new episode is released.
This episode is produced in partnership with the Lenzing Group.
For more news on Lenzing’s plans, explore our written content on Ecotextile News:
https://www.ecotextile.com/2023083131112/materials-production-news/lenzing-plots-a-greener-future-for-indonesia-plant.html#jextbox-login-module-0
https://www.lenzing.com/newsroom/press-releases/press-release/lenzing-successfully-completing-the-conversion-and-upgrade-of-its-indonesian-site
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In the latest episode of Ecotextile Talks, Jeffrey Thimm from Global Organic Textile Standard (GOTS) discusses an initiative exploring the potential of combining artificial intelligence and satellite technologies to monitor organic cotton production.
Podcast host David Styles discusses with Thimm how GOTS reached the point at which, with project partners the European Space Agency and tech firm Marple, it is watching over cotton production in India from space.
Despite what may seem like a futuristic endeavour, Thimm is adamant that this type of project is a much-needed breakthrough capable of increasing trust in the cotton sector.
“This is a way to increase the integrity of the organic cotton sector. To increase the integrity of GOTS as well,” he asserts.
“And so, not only the brands can be confident that their supply chains are what they believe they are – sustainable according to GOTS standards – but also that consumers can continue to have faith in the benefits of participating in the organic system.”
Another topic raised in the episode is the allegation – attributed in the Indian press to ‘anonymous sources’ – that the project represents a national security threat. This entire debacle, Thimm states, can be attributed to individuals or organisations “engaged in fraud”.
The conversation also reveals that once the latest stage of the experimental project shares its initial results, expected to be at the end of 2023, there may well be other applications for the technologies involved – beyond India and the cotton sector.
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The latest report from Cotton Campaign insists the time has come for the fashion industry to act conclusively on forced labour in Turkmen cotton fields, with human rights lawyer and researcher Allison Gill telling Ecotextile Talks that legal obligations must now be met.
Speaking on behalf Cotton Campaign, an interdisciplinary coalition of human and labour rights organisations focused on cotton supply chains, Gill sits down with podcast host David Styles to discuss the past, present and potential future of Turkmenistan’s use of forced labour and the nation’s relationship with the global apparel industry.
After a decade of what she regards as negligible progress in Turkmenistan, the human rights expert is realistic about the monumental challenge facing those who wish to engender real change but admits she hopes kernels of optimism may soon be evident – if the fashion industry collectively acts.
Publicly shunning Turkmen cotton and funding comprehensive supply chain due diligence, the human rights expert asserts, is the minimum required to start the ball rolling on meaningful progress.
“Companies and businesses should absolutely not be using Turkmen cotton goods… They have a legal obligation not to do so,” Gill argues, before contextualising the reality in Turkmenistan comparative to other nearby controversial cotton-producing hotspots such as Uzbekistan and China’s Xinjiang region.
Despite the latest report describing children as young as eight being compulsorily engaged in physically gruelling work, Gill admits that a key discussion among the Cotton Campaign partner organisations was how to ensure the publication was able to “convey the information so that it grabs people's attention”.
She also labels the newest findings “ground-breaking”, given that much of the information was sourced by monitors working undercover in the secretive Eurasian nation – risking their freedom or even lives to do so.
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As an apparent global push to include extended producer responsibility (EPR) frameworks in legislation gathers pace, podcast host David Styles catches up with Claire Kneller, managing director of WRAP Asia Pacific, to discuss the Australian Government’s approach.
Claire joins the latest episode of Ecotextile Talks as a representative of the consortium behind Seamless, an initiative aiming to convince fashion brands and retailers to voluntarily contribute four cents per garment to fund textile circularity programmes and avoid a mandatory levy being imposed by central government.
“Textiles is on the minister's list. It has been for a while,” Kneller explains. “Perhaps unsurprisingly, the industry was not taking enough action. There are things happening in the industry, on an individual brand and retailer level, but by no stretch of the imagination is it enough activity.”
It was this perceived stasis that led Australia’s environment minister, Tanya Plibersek, to put the nation’s fashion companies on notice: they have 12 months to act or risk much harsher measures being imposed legally.
Success for the scheme, Kneller believes, would be 60% of the industry signing up to contribute by June 2024.
“That's actually not that many companies,” she notes. “That's probably between 15 and 20 businesses, depending on which ones you get. So it's not a huge number, but the market in Australia is extremely consolidated at the top end.”
While WRAP Asia Pacific’s managing director is optimistic this level of uptake can be achieved, she issues industry with the cautionary tale that failing to do so may result in a higher contribution than the 4 cents per garment being proposed in this preliminary voluntary phase.
“Industry has the opportunity for it to continue as an industry led scheme. Once it becomes a co-regulatory scheme, it's quite a different setup… What currently is drafted as a four cents per garment levy might be 40 cents per garment under a regulatory scheme. Now I'm not saying it will be, but it could be because it really is out of industry's hands.”
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In our latest Ecotextile Talks podcast, Philip Berman catches up with John Murphy, Hohenstein’s technical director for Europe, for an update on the company’s testing and certification process for its new Oeko-Tex organic cotton standard that was launched in April.
The new testing procedure has been created to verify the labelling of organic cotton textiles, but with additional criteria that meets with the stringent Oeko-Tex Standard 100. It claims to ensure that cotton samples contain less than 10% genetically modified material, comply with limits on hazardous chemicals including pesticide residues, and guarantees its organic origin down to farm level.
Asked why he thinks the cotton industry needs a new organic label certification process, Murphy suggests that as the demand for organic has grown rapidly, so has the need to ensure that the labelling is reliable, particularly for consumers.
“We saw a need from the industry for a new independent label for organic cotton,” he tells Ecotextile Talks, explaining that Hohenstein took its time to develop the process to make sure of its integrity and that it was trustworthy.
In addition to the qualitative DNA analysis of the sample material (i.e. does a product contain genetically modified cotton, yes or no?), Murphy notes that a second important step involves quantification – determining the proportion of genetically modified cotton in a sample. The aim, he says, is not only to check production, but also to make sure the raw material is traceable throughout the supply chain.
The result is a quantitative method of GMO testing, which, for the first time he says, allows for differentiation between contamination and purposeful addition of conventionally grown cotton.
Pressed on the feasibility of this process, Murphy raises an important point around the delineation between contamination, which maybe is accidental, and that which is purposeful and potentially verging on the fraudulent. Asked how the testing manages to differentiate between those two processes, he clarifies that there is always slight contamination with cross-flying lint in production. “We’re not trying to eliminate cross contamination – that’s very, very difficult,” he says.
“What we are trying to eliminate is suppliers who may dilute the organic cotton with conventional cotton to try to increase volumes and this test will differentiate between accidental contamination and genuine contamination.
“We’ve set limits of less than 10% for accidental contamination. We’ll look at this limit which has been set for now and see how relevant it is over time.”
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- Visa fler
