Avsnitt
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Ready to simplify your daily tasks? In this episode, Pua shares her favorite productivity tools that make an entrepreneur's daily workload simpler and less stressful. She discusses which tools she uses daily and why they’re essential, and she also highlights the importance of creating efficiency while avoiding overcomplicating things. You’ll learn more about the fine balance between productivity and burnout alongside effective strategies to optimize your workflow.
Pua shares her top four productivity tools: ClickUp (for comprehensive project management), Shift (for managing multiple Google accounts seamlessly), Slack (for organized team communication), and Markup.io (for efficient web page annotation and revision tracking). With practical examples and personal anecdotes, Pua provides valuable guidance on streamlining workflows and achieving work-life balance.
Resources discussed in this episode:
AdobeAffinityAsanaCalendlyCanvaClickUpFigmaGoogle DriveLoomMarkUp.ioNotionShiftSlackTrello--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
I think that there is a fine line between working hard to provide a great service to fulfill the contracts that you've been hired for, or the products or the services that you've agreed to deliver. And this kind of chronic overworking that doesn't actually provide any results, you're not going to yield any results if you sit and you just open your email 400 times in a day, and that can make you feel really busy, it can make you feel like you're working a lot. When we implement productivity strategies, you will work less, you will get more done in less time. And so that can also be very uncomfortable.
Pualena 00:41
What's up, welcome back to the Rebel Media Podcast, I'm your host Pua. Today, we are talking about four of my favorite productivity tools that I use for my business. I use these tools every single day, they save me a ton of time, they save a lot of back-and-forth communication. You know, they save us emails that don't need to be sent. And I would love to share these with you. And before I get too far into sharing the actual tools, I really want to take a few minutes to talk about productivity as a framework, as a theory, and why it's so important for us to understand this first before we dive into the actual platforms and apps. Before this business, I had a business with a business partner, my business partner Kimi and I had so much fun we had actually, I feel like we had several businesses because our business evolved quite a bit over the time that we were working together. And one of the things that we offered when we first started out, and although the business framework changed over the years that we were in business together, this was always a cornerstone and a common thread through everything and all the services and products that we offered, and that is productivity. Productivity, efficiency, and time and energy, all of that, and we had a very, I think it was somewhat unique, our framework. And the concept was for us to give you tools, guidance and coaching on how to be more productive. Not so that you could do more work, necessarily, so that you could be efficient with the work that you have. But our overall goal was to give you your time back so that you could enjoy your life outside of work. And hopefully, you're enjoying the work that you're doing. But so many times we end up creating more time because we're more efficient, or we get faster at something, or we implement a productivity strategy that works. And we end up using the time that we've created and filling it with more busy work, which I'm not saying we don't want you to work. Working is great, working is what pays the bills, working is hopefully something that fulfills you and helps you to provide a wonderful service. I don't want you to not work. But I think that there is a fine line between working hard to provide a great service to fulfill the work, the contracts that you've been hired for, or the products, or the services that you've agreed to deliver. And this kind of chronic overworking that doesn't actually provide any results, you're not going to yield any results if you sit and you just open your email 400 times in a day. And that can make you feel really busy, it can make you feel like you're working a lot. When we implement productivity strategies, you will work less, you will get more done in less time. And so that can also be very uncomfortable. So, I just want to lay that framework out for you as just something to be aware of, if you're somebody who's tracking your time and really wanting to implement these productivity strategies, so that you can get more work done in less time, so that you can enjoy the free time that you're creating for yourself. I love that for you. And maybe you're overwhelmed and you want to get a little bit more done in each day. And so if these tasks can take you a shorter amount of time so, that you can do a little bit more work in a day. I love that for you too. I just want you to be aware that this is not meant for you to create more overwhelm, and for you to continue in that toxic cycle of working you know 10, 12, 14 hours a day, day after day after day after day for months at a time. And I want you to know that this is something that I am actively working on. This is something that I am not walking my talk on. I am the person that works 10, 12, and 14-hour days, for weeks at a time until I get burnt out. So, this episode is as much for me as it is for you. And, you know, I started writing this episode, actually, as I was going through my own productivity journey of figuring out like, Why do I feel so incredibly overwhelmed sometimes? Why do I have these never-ending to-do lists? Why am I always playing catch-up? Why am I always delivering things right at the deadline? It's not a place that I want to be in long term. And I understand that we sometimes have these busy phases in our lives in our business. And that could be the case for me right now. But in compiling the tools that I have at my disposal, and the time that I have in a day that I'd like to be spending on my work versus taking care of myself, working out, spending time with friends and family, I need to find that balance. And one of those things was auditing the tools that are at my disposal, and seeing how I can better utilize these tools to create a better, more balanced system for myself. So this is for you. This is also for me, and I'm realizing that I have a lot of great tools at my disposal that I do use every day, and that have made my life and, you know, our team members' lives better, easier, more efficient. So, without further ado, let's dive into tool number one.
Pualena 06:42
This is our project management tool. It's called ClickUp. I've been using ClickUp for about two years now, one of our VAs set up a ClickUp space for us once and I just fell in love with it, it can really just do so much I think I maybe use 4% of what the what the platform can do. It's kind of similar to Notion. I think Notion is more of a blank slate, like you can actually just make it do all sorts of things and this is too. But this is designed for project management for small and large teams. So, you'll notice if you are kind of a project management junkie, if you've done a lot of, you know product development work, you'll recognize many of the tools at your disposal here. And what I like about this is it feels like a combination of all of the project management tools that I've ever used in my entire life. So, you'll have views that look very much like Trello, you'll have views that look like Asana, just you know your standard checklists, you can nest a checklist in a checklist and subtasks, and what I really appreciate about this is how it integrates really well with apps like Google Drive. So, if you drop a link to a Google Doc or to a Google sheet, it will actually embed the sheet as a preview in the space itself. You can have conversations through comments, you can tag people, you can, you know, assign people to tasks you can, there are so many customization options. So, some of the things that we use are estimated time for the task, you can track your time in it, there's actually a timer. You can also just note, you know, I spent an hour and 15 minutes on this. So, if you are using it for people who are hourly employees or contractors, you can use it in that way. There's statuses. So, we will use something similar to the agile project management framework or agile product development framework that you heard about from Talia in the last episode. So, we essentially will have, you know, an open Task List of, I actually should open it right now and we can just walk through it together. So, we have kind of an unprioritized backlog. It's more or less a brain dump, all of the things that we need to do for a specific workspace, whether that's a client project, so every one of our client projects has their own space. We do things for our internal business management, our entire podcast production and promotion flow is in ClickUp. So, we use it for many different things. I've just opened it now let me get into one of the spaces just to walk you through, like for example for our design projects. So, we've got our prioritized backlog, our brain dump the things that need to be done, the open tasks. The next is in progress. Obviously, we can tell at a glance within a certain project what's in progress. The next one is for review. So, if something has been completed and the client needs to review it, we'll put it there. For many of our projects, we also have a column or a list for waiting on client feedback. We've got blockers, so anything that we may be waiting on that is blocking our ability to progress with the task. We've got things in QA or UAT, and then we've got complete, depending on the project, we may add or remove some of these, it really depends. But those are kind of the main ones. And the really nice thing about this is, as with all project management platforms, the idea is for anybody on your team working on that project, at any time, they can log in, and at a glance, they can see exactly where we're at with things. And so you can change the views, you can see it as a Gantt Chart, you can see a calendar view, we can see a timeline. So, for those reasons, it's really important to us that we always have dates, so we can have at least a due date that is like the bare minimum. But I do like to have start and end dates, so that when you're looking at it at a timeline or a Gantt view, you can see sort of overtime, where are we in the overall timeline on this particular task. And then where are we in terms of timeline with the project as a whole, it's really awesome. And some of our clients also have access to this, again, it's a case-by-case basis, depending on the project. But what I love so much, is utilizing their forms for client requests. So, our clients have the ability to submit a form that is created in ClickUp and they can either log into ClickUp and see the form in their project. So, we add all of our clients as guests, or there's a link, and it's just a web link, so, they can bookmark that link or save it anywhere they like, open it up, drop in their requests. So, most of our forms will look something like, so it'll be a Request Design Support Request Form. And what I highly recommend is getting some really clear boundaries from the start if this is something that you're going to do. And if after I explain this, if you're like, that's interesting, I want to know more about how you do that, just shoot me a message on Instagram, drop me a DM or send me an email. And I'm happy to walk you through how we set this up. It's really cool. And I think I found this on YouTube, somebody had set this up for a very similar business structure. So, we have a little description, that essentially just asks them to give us at least 48 hours from the date that the task is submitted until the date that it's due. Again, like when we work so closely with our clients. So, they could always shoot us a message and say, like, Hey, we've just submitted this task. Here's why it's a little bit urgent if you could get to it, you know. So, like, we have, we have exceptions, but for the most part, we have parameters. And so we have a 48-hour turnaround time. And we also have, you know, an ongoing support package. However, if somebody needs a brand new design asset, if they need a brand new page, brand new website, brand new course, email funnel, you know, whatever, we do have a payment structure. So, what I'm trying to say is like this is not an open-ended offer, to have to just submit forms as you please. But what this does do, is it allows us to properly track and manage an influx of requests. So, most of the time, people, you know, the forms are relatively short. There's a field for your name, task description, due date, attachment, and that's it. And so essentially, they can be like, you know, we just got some photos taken, here's a link to the Google Drive folder with our new photos, could you please add these to the site and they submit it. And so that comes through as a task. I'm tagged, my assistant is tagged, and we are able to then divvy out the workload appropriately, and we can communicate with our clients in the task itself. So, we can add comments, tag them, there's just so much I feel like I could go on forever. And I'm beating a dead horse because you're like, I get it. It's a project management tool. Like I'll look into it if I'm interested. So, anyway, ClickUp can do so much. I literally, I live in there all day, every day. It's amazing. And again, if you're interested in learning how we use it for our business, I'd be happy to share that with you just shoot me a message.
Pualena 14:37
All right. It's so you know, it's so funny. I say, um, a lot. And I always think about like, there's all these ads now where it's like, oh, you can have an AI podcast editor, edit out all of your ums. And I just, if you um a lot too, I'm gonna say like most of my ums are left in and it makes me human, if it helps you to know that somebody else says um a lot. I'm here for you. Okay, moving on. Number two, the second, and this actually might be the most used app that I have and use every day because ClickUp is in it. So, maybe I should have said this one first. It's called shift, S, H, I, F, T. And the website is tryshift.com. TRYSHIFT.com. This allows me to manage multiple Google accounts at the same time in the same app. So, I have a support email, I have my personal email, I have, those two are for my business, I have my actual personal email account for me as a human. And I have two other accounts that I manage. And so to be able to have them all in one place, I can see, you know, I can toggle between each one. So, if I'm getting an email to my personal account from, you know, an activity that I'm a part of, or an organization that I volunteer for, that can be completely separate from the emails that I'm getting through our support email, or through my personal, my business email. And it just helps to kind of differentiate things almost from like an energetic perspective. I also have in the past, gotten all of my emails and like, set up Google Gmail, so that everything goes into one inbox. And I thought that worked kind of well at the time. However, this, I like better for a few reasons. One, at that time, I had everything going into my personal Gmail, and I now have almost no space left. And because I'm paying for Gmail for the business, I refuse to pay Google for more storage. So, it just like overloaded my inbox so fast. So, I like that. It also separates my Google Drive for each account, which I think is hugely helpful. And it separates my Google Calendar for each account, which is also hugely helpful. My assistant and I share the support email. So, for me to not have that in my personal inbox. Also, from like a calendar perspective is really, really huge. And one of the coolest parts about this app that is a newer update, there is a unified calendar option. So, if I long hold the calendar in one of the views, it will show me a unified calendar, which I just use all the time, I find it really, really helpful because again, I do use my personal calendar for personal things, my business and my work calendar for work things because everyone on the team can see my work calendar, and that's fine. I love that. But you know, they don't need to see like my beach days or like, you know, it’s just is a wonderful way to categorize things and not have it all just mixing and mashing together. There are other apps that you can also use this space for. So, in addition to having different accounts, you can also bring in other apps. So, for example, I have Clickup in there as an app, I have Slack, I have Figma, I have Canva. A few other things that I use often that, I then just need to open the Shift app, and then I have access to all of my other accounts. Now it does take up a lot of juice. So, I often get notifications from my computer that like, you know, it'll drain the battery quite quickly. You know, things like that. So, just be mindful as you use it. If you have an older machine that doesn't have a lot of battery life unplugged, or if you're rams tend to fill up quite quickly. I do want to give you a little bit of a caution around that. But it is a phenomenal tool and I highly recommend it. I have the paid version. You can there's a free trial version, but it's very limited. It essentially allows you to see if you like sort of the look and feel of the app, but you can't really put a whole lot on there with the free version. Again, if you want a demo like I'm happy to send you a video or a Loom or something like that. Oh, I should have been Loom on here. Okay, I'll save that for the next one. And if you're curious, L O O M is like the coolest screen capture tool ever. Okay.
Pualena 19:43
So, moving on. The number three most used app in my business every day is Slack. And this has been around for so long. I don't even need to talk about it for that long. We used to use it for my other business and we used to tell people it was it was like organized text messaging, where you can categorize things. What I love about it is we have spaces for our internal teams as well as for our clients. And this allows me, so my assistant Kelly is in a timezone that is six hours ahead. And so we have client channels. And when our clients who are also, you know, in different time zones are sending messages, Kelly will get to them long before I will. And this is really, really great. Rather than having a, you know, a phone number or people texting you, I love that we can share the support through Slack, we can also bring multiple members of the company in there. And I have a really big issue with using my personal phone for work things. It's probably some kind of old trauma, you know, I'll resolve it. But one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone gives my phone number to a lead, and they're like, Oh, this is my friend Pua, she does websites, you should call her. It shouldn't bother me. But it does. And I just, I've had too many experiences where clients have my phone number, and they call and they text at all kinds of crazy hours. And I, as much as I use Do Not Disturb or you know, limit my notifications. My text messages are a protected space for my family and friends. And that is just how I want to live my life. It may sound like I'm a terrible business owner or whatever. That is my personal preference. And I stand by it because it creates huge amounts of stress for me to have somebody's message coming through in a text message that I'm seeing on a Saturday or late at night or even you know, in the middle of the night, if I have a client who is on the east coast, they are six hours ahead of me, they're sending me a text message, it's nine o'clock. For them, it's 3 am for me. If I wake up in the middle of the night to use the restroom, and I see a text from a client, I'm not going to be able to go back to sleep, maybe that's on me for checking my phone. But I also want to see like, Have I gotten any messages from my family or my friends like, it's just a protected space for me. And so Slack solves that issue. And it is wonderful because you can set the notifications. It's designed for teams, for companies, and so it understands boundaries and limitations for time. So, I don't get notifications before a certain time in the morning, after a certain time in the evening, on the weekends. I can always check it whenever I want to. But it doesn't come through. It's not intrusive. And it's actually really fun to use, we use the voice messaging between myself and Kelly all the time. It's just, I enjoy seeing Slack notifications come through, which I also think is a sign that I really like my team, and I really liked my business, and I really liked my clients. So, I'm grateful and blessed in that way.
Pualena 22:56
Okay, we are moving on to the final and fourth tool that I use every day. I have a feeling I've talked about this before and I'm gonna talk about it again because it's just that cool. It's called MarkUp.io. And this is a tool that allows you to make comments on live web pages, documents, screenshots, anything that you could comment on, you can. And what I love so much about this is okay, here's how we use it, and then I'll tell you why I love it. When we're building websites for people, let's say I'm building new website.com. And I open up MarkUp.io. And I put new website.com in the little field, hit submit and it creates this space where I can see the live site, I can navigate around. So, there's a button that's called browse. If that's toggled on, you can navigate the site as if you're just on the web. And then you can toggle that over to comment. And you can comment on the live site, change this picture here to this one. And then you can upload a file, upload the image of the new picture that you want them to change. And then you hit submit. I get a notification in my email, saying so and so left a comment. I click that, I can click on the comment. It takes me directly to the place on the live site that it wants me to change. And then I can change it. I can either comment back to them. I can send a video right inside MarkUp.io, and then I can resolve the comment. And I see two lists, a list of open comments and a list of resolved comments. And so it's a really, really awesome way for us to just track and log everything that we have to do on a site. All of it's a great way to communicate revisions instead of in an email or something or even like a, you know, ClickUp form where people are like on, on the about page halfway down the page, could you remove the extra space between? Nope, they're just gonna click on the extra space and see and remove this extra space, and then I know exactly where it is. It's really, really awesome. It saves us a ton of time, and it makes our workflow so good. And it also shows the client, you know, if they look at that log of revisions, it can show them exactly how much work we've done for them and how much they've requested of us. So, you know, sometimes in this world of web design and graphic design, it can be a little bit difficult for the client to sort of quantify the amount of work that we've done for them. And if you don't know, you don't know like it, if you're not familiar with what it takes to make a platform do something, you can't really conceptualize how much work or how little work that one task might be. And we often have people saying like, Oh, it's it, you know, I assume it's just a copy and paste. So, this should be a quick one. And it actually takes an hour and a half, because it's not that easy, or simple, or straightforward. Or you have to like hack things or code things, you know. So, as a service provider, speaking to the general entrepreneurial public, a little PSA, it's never safe to assume that something is easy to do. Because even if it might be, more often than not, it is not. PSA. Done.
Pualena 26:30
Okay. So, anyway, I hope this is helpful. I have a bajillion other apps that I'd love to talk about. I have some very design-specific apps, something that has recently come across my awareness is, Canva just acquired affinity. So, the Affinity Suite is the market standard alternative to the Adobe Suite. It does not have nearly as many products, it doesn't have any I don't think it has any video editing software or anything like that. But it has Affinity Photo, which is like the alternative to Photoshop, Affinity Design, which I think is supposed to be InDesign. And there's one other, now I have to know I have to I have to look it up. Oh, Affinity Publisher, is that InDesign? Anyway, sorry, I'm getting everything mixed up. But anyway, it's the reason why people use Affinity is because you buy it one time versus Adobe is a monthly subscription. And Canva is a monthly subscription. So, anybody who's using Affinity is sort of nervous that Affinity will then become a subscription platform, and then there will be no good industry standard that you can just purchase one time. And I have to agree like I use Affinity as often as I can, unless it's a very Adobe-specific task, in which case, I will reopen my account. Because I just think it's crazy. Like I own Affinity it can do most of the things that Adobe can that I do in my day-to-day. And you know, if I can't do it in Affinity if I can't do it in Canva, then sure, I will pay for a month of Adobe. Thankfully, I don't do a lot of video editing in Premiere yet. But I think that's coming very soon. So, we'll see, I'll keep you posted, we might do just like a design-focused app. So, we used to I had a podcast before also with my business partner. And we would do these episodes called App chats. And I thought that was really cute. And I might bring that, yeah, resurrect that. Like there's Loom, Calendly. I think I've talked about these before, we've done app chats before. But apps are really exciting. And I think it's helpful to know how people use apps because we all use them differently. So, if you do have things that you're already using, use them, you know, there's no need to just ditch what you have to just try something new. But it could be worth, you know, signing up for a free trial or, yeah, reach out though, if you have questions, and you want to see how we use something, and to see if it might benefit you, or help with your workflow, but you don't want to invest yet. Again, I'm super happy to record a video for you, show you how we use certain things. So, just reach out. And I would love to hear what you would like to learn from this podcast. What topics are exciting for you, as a listener, you are, you know the most important person as we move towards this new Rebel Media Podcast era, and you know, I have some great guests coming your way. And I also want to make sure that the things that you're curious about or that you want to learn, or the goals that you have for you, and your business, and your life. I'd love to be able to support you with those with content here if at all possible. So, please reach out, let me know if you're liking the content and what I can provide that will help you to live your best life. All right, I will talk to you soon. Until next time, keep crushing.
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Are you nervous about creating videos for your business and marketing? If you whispered a ‘yes,’ then this episode is a must-listen for you! Pualena’s guest, Bernadette Marciniak, shares how powerful video can be to not only connect with your audience and showcase your authentic self but also how it helps your searchability online. Whether you’re thinking about b-roll footage, a founder’s story video, or capturing your next public talk, this episode will leave you inspired to start using more videos in your business.
Bernadette shares the biggest mindset challenges she and her clients encounter with photography and videography and practical tips for overcoming your hesitation. You’ll also learn practical strategies including where to host your videos, how to get the most use of your content, and the essential elements needed for a great video. If you’re ready to take your website to the next level, grow your audience, or capitalize on your next speaking engagement, this interview is a must-listen and share with your network.
About Bernadette Marciniak
Bernadette is a dreamer, chaser, and storyteller. She’s also an award-winning photographer and Founder of Solhaus Media—a boutique woman-led video and photo agency for visionaries, best-selling authors, speakers, and your business’s #1 believer.
As a brand photographer and videographer, she loves working with entrepreneurs who create impact, elevate the collective, guide others, and whose superpower is leading fellow humans to discover their own magnificence. She’s a former award-winning reporter, photojournalist, and videojournalist. Storytelling plays a huge part in her approach to taking unique, authentic, and distinctive imagery that stands out and scales your business.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Picks and Flicks: Solhausmedia.com/ptfwaitlist--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Bernadette Marciniak | Solhaus Media:
Website: SolhausMedia.comCourse: Picks to FlicksInstagram: @SolhausMediaInstagram: @bernadettemarciniak--
Transcript:
Bernadette 00:00
Having just one video on your website can increase your visibility to Google by 53%. I know!
Pualena 00:14
Bernadette!
Bernadette 00:15
Hello.
Pualena 00:16
Did we meet on Instagram?
Bernadette 00:18
We totally did meet on Instagram, although I stalked you out on Instagram because a few of my friends have been on your podcast.
Pualena 00:24
Oh my gosh, that's right. That’s so funny. I was like, looking at my calendar today to see who I’m like, who am I chatting with? And I was like, oh my gosh, we met on Instagram. You reached out to me. I'm so grateful. And I wanted to make sure that I say, like, Thank you for… I don't know if it was like, weird or scary or not. But I think most people don't reach out. And I'm just so grateful and glad that you did. I looked at your Instagram and your website and your business. And I was like, oh my god, I have to meet you. So here we are.
Bernadette 00:56
Are you podcast hosts just like twiddling your thumbs until somebody, like reaches out?
Pualena 01:02
I mean, that's people are like, how do you find your guests? And some of them are friends. Some of them are clients, and literally sometimes people reach out, and I'm like, You're cool. Let's chat.
Bernadette 01:10
I love that. Okay. Noted. I have to get a little bit braver, then.
Pualena 01:14
Yes. You never know. Right? Yeah. Amazing. Well, you are the owner of Solhaus Media. Your website is amazing. Your services are amazing. I can't wait to dive in. Could you share a little bit with our audience just about what your business is, who you are and how you got to where you are today?
Bernadette 01:35
Yeah, so my name is Bernadette. I am a brand videographer and photographer. I am also the founder of Solhaus Media. It's a media agency, located in the New York City and Los Angeles areas. I'm actually primarily based out of LA, but New York City is my second base. And we provide video and photography to small business owners and entrepreneurs.
Pualena 02:01
Amazing. I love video. I mean, I personally don't love doing video. But I think video is so powerful. And so I'll do it because I see the value in it. I just I have a million questions for you. Yeah, we were chatting a little bit earlier. And you just kind of threw out casually that you were doing a presentation about video for SEO?
Bernadette 02:26
Yeah.
Pualena 02:27
I've never heard about that. Could you share with me a little bit more about what that is?
Bernadette 02:29
Yeah, so, so many people don't know how potent video on your website is when it comes to amping up your SEO. For those of you who don't know, SEO is search engine optimization. It's how Google decides where to rank your website. Having just one video on your website can increase your visibility to Google by 53%. I know!
Pualena 02:55
I say that one more time for the people in the back.
Bernadette 02:58
One video on your website can increase your visibility to Google by 53%.
Pualena 03:05
Oh my gosh, how, though? Because isn't Google like a word-based search engine?
Bernadette 03:11
So no, because it's also looking at like the type of content that you're putting on your site. And so it's hoping that you're creating a nice, dynamic user experience for people who land on your website. But the other thing that people don't really think about is if you are embedding videos from your YouTube, which I have thoughts on when you should embed from YouTube versus uploading video natively to your website. Think about who owns YouTube.
Pualena 03:50
Google!
Bernadette 03:51
Google. Exactly. And when you are putting if you're, if you're putting videos on on your YouTube, and this can be anything from like, you know, you don't have to have a very big YouTube channel. You don't have to be growing a YouTube channel, you can literally use it as a dumping ground for all of your video content. I know that there's going to be a couple of YouTube people that come after me for saying that but I think we should all just be real about what we're using all of these platforms for. And for me right now, at the current moment in this season, I am using YouTube as just a dumping ground for all of my videos. It looks nicer than that because I have it you know, branded and curated. But I literally pull all of my social content reuploaded it as YouTube shorts. Great thing about YouTube shorts and YouTube videos is that you can be very detailed in the description, so you can put keywords, and I personally keyword stuff in there because, again, I'm not trying to impress anybody I'm literally just using it as a feeder to all of these other places that I'm putting the videos on. So I keyword stuff, I put my URL in the descriptions for every single YouTube short that I put up And then when I put those videos on my website, whether it's, you know, specific pages or blog posts, then, I’m really helping Google understand that I am, you know, the one who's behind those videos, and that I'm creating this great user experience for the viewers who are landing on it with both, you know, words, videos and photos.
Pualena 05:29
Oh, my gosh. So do you find that your channel is still growing. Do you grow subscribers, even though you're just sort of using it as a place to hold content?
Bernadette 05:38
I have subscribers trickle in every once in a while, I haven't really done you know, I, I've noticed that when I am consistently uploading, then yes, they will come through. And it's not even just about uploading, because you can upload and then like, save as drafts and push them out, which I think is great, because then you can consistently have content coming out on YouTube. So I'm sure if I was doing it that way, it would help subscribers come in. But really, I haven't noticed a huge difference. I'm, again, not not looking to grow my YouTube channel that way at the current moment. Never say never, though.
Pualena 06:20
Totally. And then if and when you decide to you have all of this content already in there to make the channel look really full and robust. That's awesome. Amazing. So you mentioned that sometimes it's a good idea to embed the raw video on your website, and sometimes it's a good idea to embed the YouTube player. Yeah, what is the difference? And when would you recommend to do each one.
Bernadette 06:45
So for me, when you natively upload a video to your website platform, whether that's Squarespace, show it or WordPress, whatever you're using, I personally use Squarespace, then I do that for aesthetics. That's literally when I want the video to help with the aesthetics of that page. Because otherwise, if you are embedding the video via YouTube, you're going to have all of YouTube's branding on it. And the quality might also be a little bit off, considering it's coming from another party. So for aesthetic purposes, like your hero image, which is the first image that people see when they land on your website, or if you are using like a video as a spacer or like I call them video vignettes on your website, just like kind of a sub for an image, but it's moving and again, more dynamic, that I would definitely just use the native uploader. But if you're going to be uploading a lot of video content to like, let's say your blogs, or let's say you have a lead magnet that lives on your website, then I would embed it via YouTube, for a couple of reasons. One, again, we're feeding that SEO machine, you know the information about your website from YouTube and telling it you know, to Google that it's connected to your website. But also, a lot of the website platforms that we use have a limit as to how many how much video we can be uploading onto it natively Squarespace for instance, they have a half-hour limit, I believe. So like, you know, those little 10-second clips that you have here, they're scattered around your website, they start to add up. And especially if you were going to be putting even minute-long social content onto your blogs, let's say, then that's going to add up very quickly as well. Especially if you're posting blogs consistently. So I reserve that embedding via YouTube for that use.
Pualena 08:51
Awesome. I think this is so helpful just to help people to understand also like how many different ways we can use video in our business. Yeah, and the different ways that people can consume video content, right? If we're using it as a background image on our website, they're not going to be listening, they're going to be watching. It provides a specific aesthetic. So it's, you know, whatever it is that you do, allowing people to experience that in a 3d space rather than, you know, most of our websites are 2d, we've got a lot of graphics images, but they're static. And that to me, is just an elevated user experience. Yeah, and then there's the ones where we can actually like listen to it you know, people are gonna listen to this podcast wherever they listen to it. I've recently started putting it on YouTube almost for the same reason like it's, it's sort of just an archive right now. I'm not looking to grow the channel. I was at first and I have like pulled back on that because I'm like, this is a full-time thing to try to grow a YouTube channel, and I just don't have time for that right now. But it allows for people to find you, which I think is kind of your point, right? Like, how many ways can people discover you and your business? Where they would never have before? So I think this is a good little nudge for those of you who are like, Oh, I know video, I just, you know, one day I'll do it like, let that day be today.
Bernadette 10:21
Yeah, and you know, it might sound overwhelming. But again, we're not trying to grow a YouTube channel, we are literally just, I like your work better. I shouldn't say dumping ground, I should probably say archive, although I feel like when I say dumping ground, again, seems a little bit less intimidating. And like, it's not another project. And there's no harm in putting yourself you know, I know, we hear a lot about like picking one platform and doing it well. Absolutely. I completely agree with that, then, but there's no harm in putting yourself out there on these other platforms, even if you're not using it, you know, specifically to the platform's liking, you're still just making your your content available there.
Pualena 11:02
Absolutely. And I love YouTube, because it's free. You, it literally can be a dumping ground, and you're not paying for storage. Whereas you know, the other two are archival sites that people tend to use, after a certain amount, you do have to pay Vimeo or Wistia. If a client on Wistia right now, who didn't realize that they would automatically increase their, their fee, their monthly fee, if they exceeded X amount of storage space. So they went from having this like, you know, I don't know what it was $20 or $30 a month, uploaded, like several online courses worth of content. And the next bill is in the thousands.
Bernadette 11:50
Oh my gosh.
Pualena 11:51
That was so crazy. So we're like moving everything over now. So like YouTube will never do that to you. You know? Yeah. In fact, they'll pay you if your content’s good.
Bernadette 11:53
Right, exactly, exactly. And you know, if you have a ton of video content already living on your social or whatever, I had at least two years worth that I needed to move over to YouTube when I started this process. If you have a VA, this is a perfect task to hand off to them, because I definitely don't want to be doing it.
Pualena 12:15
Totally. Yeah. And it's well worth it, too I think, yeah,
Bernadette 12:18
the payoff is very, very much worth it.
Pualena 12:21
Awesome. Well, this is juicy. And I would love to hear just kind of what do your clients typically hire you for? And what is your favorite service and share with us a little bit about that?
Bernadette 12:34
Yeah, so I, I provide a lot of videography and photography actually started out as a photographer, but the minute that I let it be known that I also know how to do video and that I know how to do it well, the photography definitely took a backseat not because I don't like doing it or because my clients don't like it. But I am definitely somebody who is kind of a unicorn in that I'm female behind the camera when doing video. Video is definitely still very much a boy’s game. So they appreciate having me there who somebody who empathizes and understands everything that's going on in a woman's mind when she's in front of the camera. So I, my bread and butter started out with being founder stories. And those are they're basically intro videos to you, your brand, your business, what your business offers who you offer it to. That came from my experience in journalism before I became a full-time business owner, I had a background in journalism. So these are very similar videos, you know, talking about who you are and what you do. I also do a lot of event videography and speaker videography. So on the one side of things, I do video in-house for event organizers at their events. Or if somebody is speaking a lot, goes on tour, you know, to all these different stages. They'll also hire me to come and capture all of their keynotes and provide social content, create social content out of it, and speaker reels at the end of everything. And those can often definitely become intertwined like founder stories and the speaker stuff because if you're a speaker, then that kind of becomes your founder story. But those are the two main types of video that I provide still along with brand photography when the occasion comes.
Pualena 14:31
Oh my gosh, would you like to clone yourself and open another location?
Bernadette 14:36
Oh my gosh, I would love to. Although I do travel, so just want to put that out there. I want to clone myself for a few reasons. But yeah, in that spirit, I actually do also have a program for photographers called Pics to Flicks, where I teach photographers how to shoot, edit and incorporate video into their business, the same way, I incorporated video into my business. Because I definitely need more of me, I can't do all of the work by myself. And, and so I know that it's also going to be appreciated, that there's going to be more people that look like me behind the camera,
Pualena 15:17
You are a unicorn. This is amazing! Thank you for sharing your gifts as well. Like, I think that is such a beautiful evolution for you and your business. And I hope that other people are inspired to do that also, because you are, what you do is in such high demand, both just in general, and also, as you said, as a female in this space, to have not just, you know, a fellow female, like, that's amazing to just be out on a shoot with, you’re you know, more probably understanding of angles and things that we may feel a little bit more self-conscious about. But also, in post-production, I imagine that you have somewhat of a different perspective. And I just everything you described is everything that I hope that every business owner can someday have for themselves. A video with an origin story, right? B-roll with things that they do in the community, that, Oh, my God, it's like, drooling when you told me what you did.
Bernadette 16:23
Yeah, I mean, like, when we think B-roll, I see a lot of people, oh, my gosh, I just came across a social post. And I know it has the best of intentions. And it's you know, it's it's great advice for people who don't have a budget for a videographer. But you know, it's a lot of the generic like hands on your keyboard, typing, writing, you know, all of that regular stuff. And that's great. That's definitely content that you should have in your arsenal, I definitely capture it for my clients. But what I'm really after is the storytelling part, people in their community, people in their home with their families, people, you know, at the events that they're going to and speaking it's it's much bigger story than you behind your, your, your keyboard, totally.
Pualena 17:11
And I think that helps people to what helps potential customers come to connect with the person behind the business, which is something that I'm constantly telling my clients, like they need to know who you are, and connect with you. And yes, you can write a great bio, you'd have, you know, go get a photo shoot, but nothing conveys that deeper and faster than video. And I, it's so funny you said that about b-roll because I recently trialed this clip maker for my Instagram promo clips. And it has an AI B-roll feature. And so I tried it. Oh my God, it was horrendous.
Bernadette 17:56
I was gonna say, I can't imagine that. It's that great. But yeah. You know it…
Pualena 18:02
Horrible.
Bernadette 18:04
Yeah. Yeah.
Pualena 18:06
To be able to have your own B-roll too, like, to your point, you know, having, we work with what we got, right? So if we need to go get that stock video, fine, we'll make it work. But it's so powerful to have photos and videos of you. Because a) you don't have to worry about copyright infringement, and you can use it freely. But also, it's just that much more authentic, you know?
Bernadette 18:29
Exactly, exactly, it's going to feel better putting it out there to like, people are going to be able to connect with it, people are going to know that it's you. And especially in this world of AI, I think that we're definitely gonna want to be able to see more authenticity versus something, you know, that's produced by AI. And I know AI definitely has its place. Like I don't know which video clip thing you're talking about. But I've tried a few of them out for my podcast guest spots to get like the captions and everything like that. And it's super useful. It's, it's, it helps, you know, make the work quicker and easier. Although I still ended up going back to doing it kind of manually in one of the other video editors that I use, because it just wasn't finding the sound bites that I knew were the good ones. But then so I guess to that point, you know, we're really looking to put out and find the authentic things out there right now.
Pualena 19:28
Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm still I will, I won't out them but I'm still using them for like the actual clips. Yeah, because you can actually like select and edit.
Bernadette 19:39
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Pualena 19:41
But the B-roll was like a hard pass.
Bernadette 19:47
That’s fine. We'll pretend it didn't happen.
Pualena 19:49
Exactly. I think there was like a, I mean, you've heard my podcast I don't talk about like, I don't know, I don't remember. Why is it Like an angel, like an angel, like, flew across the, the clip, and then there was like a, yeah, it was just so bizarre. Anyway, I am like reliving it right now. And I imagined too, as a videographer and a video, content creator, professional video content creator, the automated things may not feel like you may want more control over all of those aspects of it than maybe somebody who's not into video. But yeah, I agree. I think if we can be authentic, if we can create things that feel, like I always use the phrase human-to-human. We just want to be speaking human-to-human. Even that if that is through static digital content that people are consuming at their own pace on their own time, right?
Bernadette 20:50
Yeah, yeah.
Pualena 20:52
For sure. Yeah. Amazing. So what, as somebody who's in video who sees quite a variety of business owners and humans and people who are using video and photo for all sorts of things. Are there any, as you say, challenges, or is there anything that you might warn people against doing or things to avoid? If somebody's out there thinking about creating video or photo content for themselves or hiring somebody to help them create that?
Bernadette 21:28
Um, that's an interesting question. I think I'm gonna kind of turn that question on its head and say, first of all, I hesitate to say that there are things that people should avoid with video because video is already intimidating enough for a lot of people. And like you were saying, before, you know, you like video, you see the value in it, but it's a pain in the ass to create it. And, like I totally 100% agree. But it also doesn't have to be this big, overwhelming thing. So I like kind of just want to as much as that one social post that I was talking about earlier with, like, record yourself typing record yourself doing this, like, that's a great starting point. And I think that that is where people should begin, and it kind of eases you into getting in front of a camera that just keeps rolling for a while instead of taking snapshots, right? Because I know that people who are even comfortable in front of the camera for photos, video is a whole different thing when you start adding movement and sound into it. But if you are gonna get started with video and you want to take it to that next level, then there are things that you should definitely be doing, like making sure that your audio is top-notch. Podcasts are definitely a testament to this, basically, you know, I know it's just audio, and so like if you have bad audio like that, that's it's done, right, the podcast is done. Same thing for video, if you have bad audio, that video is almost unusable. In most cases, there are still some ways that you can work around it, but having good audio equipment, like a microphone, and I wouldn't, you know, buy like the cheapest one that you can find on Amazon, I have done that, and I've tested them I would not recommend. So good audio, and finding good light. That's also a good tip for photography as well. Always make sure that you're in a well lit area when you're doing video. And don't be afraid to move i So for my founder stories, when I when I'm recording my clients speaking to the camera, they sit very robotically at first in front of the camera, they don't move their arms are like very closely tucked into their bodies. And I say do you usually speak with your arms? And they say yeah, absolutely. I'm, you know, I'm always speaking with my arms and my hands, and I said, Good. Make sure you do that here too. This is not that serious. You know, even though serious videos, we want to see movement, we want to see that authenticity again, right. So ease up a little bit, take a deep breath. It doesn't have to be as intimidating as you're, we're all making it out in our heads to be, and this is advice that I still need to hear sometimes. So you know, I've definitely had a little bit of experience and gotten better at it. But yeah.
Pualena 24:32
I love that so much. I love that you shifted that question to a positive and give us some tips because I think that's, it's so important for people to just understand that there's it's doable for all of us. Like it just I don't know it's it's something that perhaps used to be a little bit out of reach. And it's not that, you know, every computer has a camera, right you could record on your phone. Again, clean audio is important, getting a good mic, there's little things that you should invest in. And it's interesting that you talked about hands because you reminded me of something that I heard. Several years ago now, I had another business and we worked with a lot of course creators in that business as well. And when we are guiding them to create their video content, we would always say, you know, backup, so that the top half of your body can be seen, so that you can talk with your hands without them kind of like showing like just your fingertips because people tend to trust you when they can see your hands.
Bernadette 25:36
Interesting. I have never heard the take about trust, although I can see how we could come to that conclusion for sure. I think there's a multitude of reasons that we should be showing more of our bodies on camera. And I know this is going to be a tough pill to swallow for, you know, people who are struggling with body image. I'm right there with you. I just put out a post on Instagram last week literally about how I hated my new brand photos. My photographer knows, she, I like … we had a very good deep conversation about it. And it was nothing about her work. But it was just about how I, you know, looked in front of the camera. But I will say that the photos that I liked more of myself, were the ones where you saw my entire body because if you are going further away, then I'm not just taking I'm not filling up. I don't know, you know, if you're watching this on YouTube, like if I'm filling up this entire screen right now, I look ginormous. If I move myself back, well, now I look like more of a normal, normal person. And so again, you are kind of building that trust not even for other people. But for yourself. It's safe to be seen whole. And it actually is better to be seen whole.
Pualena 26:59
Oh my gosh, I love that it's safe to be seen whole that is your gift you make this space safe for people.
Bernadette 27:07
I hope so because, like I said, I know what it's like to be on the other side of the lens. I'm putting myself there as much as I'm, you know, capturing other people behind it. Because I don't believe that it's fair to expect other people you know, I sometimes, you know, have it in my mind during shoots, like, can you just do with it? Can you just do and I'm like, no, it's it. There's there's a block happening here. So it's alright, we can take our time we can walk through it. Because I know that I need to do that. Have that same process when I'm in front of the camera.
Pualena 27:37
Yeah, absolutely. I'm thinking about this Instagram account that I follow. It's a woman who used to do, actually she, she owns a CrossFit gym. And she was uh, she competed in the CrossFit Games a few years ago. She it seems like from her recent posts, she might be trying to compete again, which is really cool. She's done, I think in her mid-30s and talks a lot about body image. And she's very open about it, she, you know, as a CrossFitter, she's not your typical like, muscles and abs. And she's like, I love to eat. This is my body shape. This is my body type. And I often feel like, you know, I'm not skinny enough, I don't have enough definition. And so she recently shared that she went to speak to a school about, you know, body image. And she got, a photographer came and took photos of her. And as she was looking through the photos, she was saying, like, oh my god, I look so fat. As she's looking at the photos of her talking about body image, and she was very vulnerable with about this. And she's like, we just have to talk about this and understand that our bodies serve us in so many ways. And she's like, I can say that, but I still have these thoughts myself. So it's always a constant thing that we're all working through. And I think the more that we can put that out there, the more we all can realize that we're not alone in this and that we can show up and that there are safe spaces for us to show up and do what we're meant to do in the world without feeling pressured into just having to like see past it or get over it. Right. We can look at it and we can move forward together.
Bernadette 29:17
Yeah. 100% you, you nailed that on the on the head. Yeah.
Pualena 29:24
Amazing. Well, I am… Thank you, thank you for for also sharing so authentically and vulnerably. About that. I think it's important. And yeah, if if there's anything that we didn't touch on that you're excited to share about your services, about your clientele, anybody that you are looking to connect with. Let's, let's dive into that.
Bernadette 29:45
Yeah, so I am launching my program for photographers again, in just a month from the recording. It's going to be in May. So it's called Picks to Flicks, and if you're a photographer who knows that you're ready to incorporate video into your business, then I highly suggest you join the waitlist. Solhausmedia.com/ptfwaitlist. And you know, it's just as intimidating for photographers to start doing video as it is for clients to start getting in front of the camera. But I will tell you the whole reason that I threw a white flag up, you know, from just doing brand photography is because I had so many of my clients who were asking me, do you offer video? Do you offer video? Or do you know somebody who offers video, and at that point, like I didn't know how to offer, I did, I did know how to shoot video, I had been shooting video for a while I just never told anybody about it. And I'm like I'm leaving all of this money on the table and not serving somebody who already loves to work with me. And I know those clients exist for other photographers. So I want to make video easy, fun, accessible, not like a YouTube bro, teaching them how to do video. So that program is launching in May. And I would love to have you join the waitlist if you're interested. And if you're a photographer. Otherwise, I like I said, I work with a lot of speakers and business owners and I would love to connect with anybody who is either going to be on stages or leading workshops, no matter how small or big the stages that you're going to be appearing on. There's always going to be really good and juicy sound bytes that are going to propel you even further and get you on bigger and more stages in, you know in the future. So yeah, you can check out solhausmedia.com, S-O-L-H-A-U-S-media.com. And connect with me on Instagram at solhausmedia or at Bernadette Marciniak.
Pualena 31:52
Amazing! I just have to say I love that that's something that you focus on an offer in terms of capturing people speaking. And I think people think that if if they are going to be hiring a videographer than the stage has to be big, that they even have to be on a stage at all right? And it's like, I had a client who was a business coach, and I distinctly remember him saying, if you're going to invest in anything, invest in a videographer anywhere you speak. And you just nailed that point home because that is, right?
Bernadette 32:29
That is golden golden advice. Yeah. And like I'll even add a little tidbit, one of the podcasts that I was on, a few weeks ago, the host was telling me that she had been asked to speak in an event where only 10 people out of like, I think there was supposed to be like 50-60, maybe even 100 people and only 10 people ended up showing up for whatever reason weather, whatever it was, and she had brought her own videographer there to capture the Keynote and to like, you know, she said, I have two options, I can be super bummed out that there's nobody here, or I can deliver the speech as if there's 100 people there to the 10 people that are here that you know, are ready to hear that message. And you know, they got everybody close together so that it looked like it wasn't empty and whatnot for the video. And that video from that event ended up getting her on a really big dream stage of hers. Yeah, in just a couple of weeks after that. So, again, doesn't matter. Like even if you're just leading a workshop for less than 10 people, there are going to be so many mic drops. It definitely elevates your credibility, your visibility, and your confidence of putting yourself out there. And so there's really no wrong reason to get a videographer at your speaking events.
Pualena33:54
Ah, I love that. Do you capture photo at these events too?
Bernadette 33:58
I do. I will. I because I am. I'm a Virgo. So I definitely need to be a kind of a perfectionist. And so I'm always thinking about like, oh, well, if they do all of these social clips, they need reel covers to put over them. And so I will make sure that the photos are framed. So that way it can be a good reel cover. But also, you know, just because video is king doesn't mean that photo doesn't have a place you need to have photos for all of these, you know, like print and static places that visuals are still needed. So yes, I will definitely do both photo and video when I'm coming to capture you speak.
Pualena 34:39
Oh, I love that because there's so much more authenticity. When you're actually getting dressed up to do a thing and you're onstage and you have the energy of a crowd. You're You're fired up you have all of this adrenaline that the emotion in that vibration I think photographs so much better than when you, kind of have, not to say staged photo shoots aren't good, because those are so useful. But you know, your outfit changing, it's a long day you're tired, you're kind of like posing. Again, nothing wrong with those, those are phenomenally useful. But I just think repurposing the, as any speaking engagement, you're going to show up as your best self, you're going to dress up, you're going to prepare ahead of time, I spoke at a local Rotary Club, and it was in a cafeteria of a local public school. And it was probably the best presentation I've ever given in my life,
Bernadette 35:35
Right?
Pualena 35:36
And I regret not recording it.
Bernadette 35:39
It’s these places where we're giving the best ones, the best keynotes. Yeah, I completely agree with that, like do not knock an event just for it not being your dream event to use that as a reason to not have it documented. That's probably where you're going to do your best work. And you know what, something else that I didn't mention is that a lot of the times my clients, since they already have me, you know, on location for their speaking engagements, they'll also say, like, well, let's, let's do everything, let's do some B-roll, let's do some brand photos in the city that I'm in, you know, they're usually a little bit more done up than the normal. And so we'll make a whole content day out of you know, their speaking engagement and, and the location that we're in, even if it's, you know, local. And I will say that, the confidence that exudes them after, like doing a keynote and being on stage and then going out to do some more photos and videos, like, oh my gosh, that totally comes through, in, in the visuals when you, you know, pair everything together.
Pualena 36:49
Ah, this is amazing. I'm going to be in LA in October, and I'm going to look you up and we should do a shoot because I think this would be a blast.
Bernadette 36:56
I would love that.
Pualena 37:01
Amazing. Well, I'm also inspired to get a speaking engagement on the books, and to, if you're available, if you're willing to travel, wherever it is, I am just, you've really inspired me to step back into video, step back onto stages and really just capture moments. And I think that that's your gift, as well as is to be able to allow people to reach new audiences, grow their business through something that you capture once and can be used in so many different ways. So thank you for what you do.
Bernadette 37:38
Thank you. Thank you so much for those kind words. I think I'm gonna have to, like, tear up that was the nicest thing that anybody’s ever said.
Pualena 37:47
Well, you are, you called it you're a unicorn. It is so special to know that you have these gifts and you're sharing them, you're teaching them now and I'm grateful to be connected and yeah, stay in touch.
Bernadette 37:52
I would love to.
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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In this enlightening podcast, host Pualena engages with product strategy consultant Talia Marino, offering valuable insights into effective product development processes. Talia emphasizes the importance of thorough discovery and validation, stressing the need to understand user needs before embarking on development. She discusses the iterative nature of product development, advocating for delivering incremental value over time. Talia explores key themes such as prioritization based on ROI, stakeholder management, and the significance of documentation for maintaining clarity and alignment throughout the development process.
Furthermore, she delves into the intersection of creativity and strategy, showcasing how both elements contribute to impactful solutions. Talia shares strategies for overcoming common roadblocks in product management, emphasizing the importance of validation, feedback, and informed decision-making to ensure product success. Tune in for valuable insights on stakeholder management, risk mitigation, and the iterative process of product management.
About Talia Marino
Talia is an accomplished executive product leader known for driving growth and innovation in the enterprise, B2B SaaS space, as well as experience building 0 to 1 products. With a strategic mindset and deep product management expertise, Talia has successfully developed and executed product strategies aligned with market trends and customer needs across several industries, most notably in FinTech and Entertainment. She excels at fostering cross-functional collaboration, influencing stakeholders, and navigating complex organizational landscapes.
She is also well-versed in building and mentoring high-performing teams, fostering a culture of creativity and always driving continuous improvement. Passionate about driving customer-centric innovation, Talia has a keen eye for identifying market opportunities and translating them into actionable product roadmaps. She has a strong focus on delivering exceptional user experiences and leveraging data-driven insights to inform product decisions. In her free time, you will find her traveling the world, wine or champagne tasting, scuba diving, and tinkering with the latest AI tools.
Resources discussed in this episode:
The Crux by Richard Rumelt: Givson Biddle: gibsonbiddle.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Talia Marino | The Product Consult:
Website: theproductconsult.comEmail: [email protected]: The Product ConsultLinkedin: Talia Marino--
Transcript:
Talia 00:00
The very beginning is usually the step people skip them. And the first step is really like discovery and validation, like understanding if the things that you think you need or that your users or clients or whomever need are actually things that they need and are worth solving.
Pualena 00:23
Talia!
Talia 00:25
Pua!
Pualena 00:26
Hi, this is really exciting for me.
Talia 00:30
Same here, it's been a while, like, it's been ages. And it really only has been a couple of months since we last talked, but I'm so excited to be here.
Pualena 00:37
Totally. Yay, I am too. And I'm super excited, as always, I start every episode with like, I'm so excited to talk to Talia, but I am so so so, so super excited to talk to you because, well, for many reasons. But the one that sort of screaming at me right now is as somebody who has operated kind of in a silo on her own by herself, like a solo entrepreneur and now I have a very small team. And we kind of just figure things out as we go, I don't have a lot of form, not formula, sort of formal, like corporate product experience, I worked with you, I was able to do, what was it like three months of weekly sessions with you something like that. And I have to say, you truly opened my eyes not just to project management, not just to product development, but to finding a flow that allows things to go from idea to execution over and over and over again, in such a beautiful, clean and formulaic way. And so I just want to thank you for that. And I'm excited to share you and your knowledge in this time that we have with the other entrepreneurs who are out there kind of fumbling around in the dark figuring out their way, because I think you can really, really impact and change the way people run their businesses in a beautiful way.
Talia 02:12
Wow, that's very kind. And I'm so glad that we had the opportunity to do that together. And it's true. It's like stuff, practices, frameworks, things that you could use in everyday life and running a business in just establishing like, your to-do list for a given day and understanding what's most important versus less important. And then like, going forth, and you know, doing the most and getting the most value out of whatever you're spending your time on.
Pualena 02:40
Yeah, that's it. That's everything. It's making every second count. And yeah, so we sort of dove in, and people were like, I think I know what she does. So, let's clear the air. Could you share, you know a little bit about your background, what you do and how you how you got here?
Talia 02:59
Yeah, totally. So, I am a product strategy consultant. Now, my career has always been in product management, basically, since almost immediately after I got out of college, but I didn't know that was a thing, I had no idea. It was like product manager was a title of somebody who worked in the company kind of fell into it. And that's true of a lot of product people I talk to you, you end up just like literally falling into it. And there's a need in almost all organizations. And now it's like the hot, you know, position of the day the company. So, I'm very blessed to have found that like a dozen years ago or so. And now I'm living my dream job consulting and doing projects with awesome people like Pua. And just helping organizations getting, like I said, get the most value out of what they spend their time on and making sure that they're solving problems that matter for their customers or users, whoever that might be. Yeah, I can also is it helpful if I describe like what product managers do? Because most people, I swear to God, my parents still have no clue what I do for a living. I've described this to them so many times. So, it's not super familiar to a lot of people. And you can't fault them for that. But product managers are effectively responsible for understanding user market needs, figuring out what problems need to be solved for companies, for clients, for users, etc. And it's usually from a software development standpoint, but product managers exist in hardware too, right, because at the end of the day product is responsible for identifying what those needs and problems are, and then writing the business requirements that would be needed to solve those problems. And then working with software engineers, developers, designers to build a solution that solves those problems at a very basic level. And so yeah, at the end of the day, it's really about understanding what problems to solve and then prioritizing them in a way that adds incremental value to the experience over time. And then, you know, obviously, that all rolls up into things like the product roadmap, and again, establishing those priorities, doing something now, versus next, versus maybe never. And an overall product strategy that kind of helps to drive a lot of the organizational strategy at the end of the day.
Pualena 05:25
Epic. I love. I'm sitting here like, like, okay, of all the things you taught me. How much of it can we cram into this 45 minutes?
Talia 05:36
Yeah I know, describing product management that way is almost limiting in and of itself, because it's so many other things, too. But yeah, it's a lot.
Pualena 05:43
But it's so helpful, too. Because yeah, like the whole product space is a little bit ethereal. I think, especially in the service industry, where you're like, what, I don't have a product but you do.
Talia 05:55
Yup, your service is your product.
Pualena 05:58
You also have a client experience. Right? Exactly. Totally. What I love so much about the– is this the right term, like agile project management, is that what we kind of worked on together? So, that to me, is the secret sauce, from taking somebody who's full of ideas that like need to really be in the world, they're great ideas, maybe, hopefully, and through this process, you'll find out and taking them from idea to concept to product, quote, unquote, whatever that product might be, could you share with me as detailed or non-detailed as you'd like, sort of your like, if someone were to say, Hey, I'm full of ideas, but I don't know what to do with them? How do they implement this, where they start?
Talia 06:51
It’s such a good question. And it's often like the very beginning is usually the step people skip the most. And the first step is really like discovery and validation, like understanding if the things that you think you need or that your users or clients or whomever need are actually things that they need and are worth solving. I'm reading a book called The Crux by Richard Rumelt. And he talks about the crux of like, you first need to identify what the like core problem is that you're trying to solve, and whether it's feasibly achievable to be solved before anything else happens. And so really like digging in and understanding, validating whether those things that you think you should be working on, are indeed stuff that people want you to be working on. So, that takes a lot of user research. Data is your best friend, talking to people, understanding really like, where they're falling down, like where they're getting stuck, as it relates to whatever product service or whatever technology you're offering them. Validation is the first piece of that. And then through that process, hopefully, you've been able to identify like, how can I get the most bang for my buck? What do I need to focus on now? How and the name of the game is incremental value delivery, right? So, what do I need to do now, that gets me the biggest ROI in the most concise amount of time? Like how do I deliver meaningful value in a shorter period of time, because you'll build on that as time goes on and continue to iterate as we say, make improvements, enhancements whatever to the experience or the product that you're delivering. And you rinse and repeat that cycle over and over and you're constantly validating that those ideas are worth pursuing, while you do more execution and keep building the things that you've validated are worthy of being solved.
Pualena 08:46
I love that. I love that for so many reasons. The biggest one is that we don't have to guess what people want. We don't have to guess if this will work. We don't have to guess if it's what they need. All we have to do is ask.
Talia 08:59
Yeah, totally and so many people skip that step.
Pualena 09:01
Just something that we find difficult.
Talia 09:05
Which is wild, right? Like, you're like, I know the solution to this problem. And you're like, ooh, do you? Is that even a good problem? Like do other people care about that problem? Like, is it just your idea that you think is brilliant? It's so fundamental and seemingly easy, and yet is probably one of the biggest pieces people miss, because we get so attached and fixated on this idea of a solution to something in our heads before we even know for sure that it's worth pursuing.
Pualena 09:32
Totally. It's very emotional, I think because you have this like, a lot of people have been brewing on their ideas for a while. Right? So, to hear the thing, something that you told me over and over again, you told me a lot of things that really stuck with me. But data is not emotional, right? Data is simply something that you can use to make a decision on. Make adjustments, iterate, test, get feedback. That might not be the right order, but like–
Talia 10:00
That is 100%. And like you're not always going to have data like quantitative data, but qualitative data, anecdotal feedback, you know, that is data in and of itself. And so the more diverse types of data that you can kind of combine and aggregate and synthesize to make those decisions, the better off you're going to be like, the more hedge your bets are going to be, the less risky they're going to be. And the greater the chance that they fit the value that you think you're delivering, is–
Pualena 10:32
I'm curious, in your experience, as you collect this feedback, and data and sort of make decisions on what data is useful, what data you should probably utilize in order to make these changes or not? How, like, we can ask one person, three people, five people, 10 people, 100 people, and you'll get, you know, things that you can pull out that are patterns, you'll get individual pieces of information that maybe one person thought of that was brilliant that nobody else thought of? What is your process for figuring out how to utilize the feedback and the data to make those decisions?
Talia 11:17
Man, that's a loaded question. It's such a good one because you're right. And like, sometimes you only hear the loudest people, like sometimes you only get feedback from the people who are the loudest. But there's good ideas and good feedback brewing from, you know, the silent ones, too. So, you really have to work to get a diversity of perspectives, as you, you know, analyze feedback. So, I think number one, that's, that's important. But something is always better than nothing. So, if you really can only talk to five people go talk to those five people, you know, and then like you said, I think identifying patterns and trends, those are usually good places to start, because they're self-identifiers of maybe the biggest problem spaces that exist, and therefore may be where you have the most ROI.
Pualena 12:04
Brilliant. So, there's something that we talked about this together, and it was prioritizing, the things that need to be done based on ROI, based on the things that are going to have the most impact in the shortest amount of time, that get you incrementally closer to that big goal. Sometimes the priorities that we feel like are important may shift. Which, in our experience, I think, ultimately would shift the end product altogether. And sometimes we have stakeholders or other people who might be present in parts of the process, but not all. You taught me something very, very cool. And it was documentation and understanding at each point along the way, each task, each thing that you want to iterate on or test needs to be documented in a way that somebody can jump in, without knowing what you've done in the last three days and understand exactly where you're at, exactly what this thing is supposed to accomplish and why. And at first, I have to say I was like, I have to document every task, this is insane. So, can you share it because it is incredibly impactful and meaningful? Can you share a little bit about the documentation process, what that even means, what it is and why it's so important?
Talia 13:34
Yeah, I mean, documentation, it comes up in a lot of different forms. So, whether it's like what we refer to in product as a product requirements document, or a business requirements document, or what we refer to as epics and stories, which are like the individual chunks of work that the engineering teams are ultimately going to be working on. The most important piece of what you're trying to elicit in that content is why. Why are you doing this, it helps to have those conversations with stakeholders who are maybe not in your orbit, like you said on a day-to-day basis, but have influence over the decision-making that ultimately is going to drive where, you know, the product, the roadmap the company, whatever, where it may go in the future. So, being able to justify, rationalize the what and the why. Why we’re doing something and why we're doing it in this order, why that makes sense, I think is really key. And that's where your data both qualitative and quantitative really help to kind of drive that message home and give you some empirical proof, you know that the decisions that you're making are founded in really sound rationale. So yeah, it's probably most people's least favorite part of their job is documentation when you say it like that. But I think a lot of product people also like to nerd out on like, really diving into like, why is this important and understanding that the decisions that they're making do actually change other people's lives, like, maybe it makes their work easier, maybe they can spend more time at home because their tasks now take a fraction of the time that they used to because you've automated some of their workflow. So, you know, there's opportunities to nerd out on it to without being completely a snore.
Pualena 15:23
Completely. Well, and I think it's, you nailed it, because it's understanding why you're doing something, which implicitly also helps you to understand why you're not doing something. And right? So, I'm like, there's a client that we're working with phenomenal people, incredible company and business and service. And the other day, they asked us, they were like, I think, you know, somebody told us, we need a thank you page. And I was like, tell me more. And they're like, Yeah, well, I think it was our business coach said, We need a thank you page. And I was like, for what? And they were like, for this workshop. And I was like, do you have two workshops? Do you need one thank you page for both workshops? Do you want a thank you page for each one? Like, what does that look like for you? And they’re like, I don't know, she just said we need a thank you page. So, their why at that moment was, my coach said so. Which means it's time to dig in a little bit into what the ROI would be to create five thank you pages, or one thank you page, or if you don't need it at all, right? And without that, you end up with this laundry list of things that you think you need because somebody else said so or you watched a YouTube video. So, I think that documentation process and you know, for a solo entrepreneur, you don't have to do the A to Z documentation the way that somebody in a 300-person software company does. But I do think it's important because you have to understand that where you're spending each of your seconds of the day matters so much more sometimes than large teams. Right?
Talia 17:03
Gotcha. There are a couple of things that you pointed out there that I wanted to comment on, one being if someone and this happens in large organizations too, the CEO walks over to product and it's like, hey, we have to go do this thing for this client, otherwise, we're not going to close the deal. You're like, cool, I had all of these other 10 things that I already had prioritized, like what happens to those? So, you run into conversations like that all the time, very naturally, within the course of development. And it's all about understanding that why and coaching other people as well, we talk about like the five why's you keep asking the question, why, at least five times to get to the root cause of the problem that they're trying to solve with the thing they're asking you for. So, that's a method in which you can kind of apply to any situation. And you're like, you're totally thinking like a product manager, Pua. Like, the application is perfect. Like, okay, you needed a thank you page. I mean, this came up in the course of our, you know, work together as well as like, Okay, but why do you have to do it that way? Well, because somebody that's how someone wants it, it's like, well, there are probably other ways to achieve the same thing. And probably for far less, you know, in terms of resources, cost, whatever that is that delivers ultimately, a better user experience at the end of the day. And so like, having the freedom and creativity to propose alternative solutions, and like validate the solutions that you are putting into play, I think it is critical.
Pualena 18:35
Yeah, it changed my world for sure. And that's like, very granular, right? Like that is like we are down to the little tasks that we're doing to bring big projects to life.
Talia 18:49
Yeah, well, and that's true, too. Like, the other point is, like, there's this concept of like big wins and little wins or quick wins like you should scatter them out. So, at the end of the day, you're achieving something really great. But along the way, people are getting something, you know, some value delivered along the way too, and be risking those big bets that you're making on big, big things so that they aren't so risky in the end when you ultimately deliver them because you're building up along the way. And validating again, continuous learning, continuous discovery, validating that what you're doing is the right path to get there.
Pualena 19:26
Absolutely, and I feel like I just got so excited that we just dove right into all the juicy stuff. And I'm wondering if it would help listeners who this feels very foreign to, to kind of go from like, big picture to small picture what this actually looks like in a real-world situation. Maybe starting with like, because you did mention stories and epics and even roadmaps, and it all does flow together. And there's a lot of detail in each step. But could you describe kind of what this overall process looks like?
Talia 20:00
Yeah, totally. So, generally speaking, like, within any organization, and again, could be small, could be large, it could be a single person, entrepreneur, you know, taking a look at their service or their product offering. And you usually start with like, what is the goal? What are the objectives of your organization? What is your company trying to achieve? Why are they doing it? Who are they serving, and what is my like bet on return that I get as a result of like serving this community of users, clients, whomever, as a result. So, you start at the company level. And then if you have a product or a service offering that is contributing to how you deliver on those objectives within your organization, that's where product strategy comes into play. And the goal of Product Strategy is that you're driving, you're not only aligned with overall, like goals of the business, but you can help drive return or advancement towards those objectives of the company at a product or service level offering. And so that's how that all fits in. And from there, all you're doing is saying, Okay, how as a product person, can I help drive business, revenue, value for my company? And then you go into that discovery process. What problems are we really trying to solve with our product or service? Who are we really serving? Who's our target audience? Who's our ideal customer? You start to ask those questions. And then you start to identify those kinds of smaller problems and build a long-term roadmap that ultimately helps you get to the place that you want to be as an organization through the enhancements to your product or service. Does that make sense?
Pualena 21:47
Totally, super helpful. And what I really love about this is it forces you, not forces, you get the opportunity to chunk things down in a way that helps you to move towards goals. Right? Like, that's when we went through developing a product roadmap together, it was so eye-opening to see like, if someone's out there, and this is, you could have very specific goals. But you could also have big dream goals. Like I want to write a book. How many people want to write a book? Right? So, okay, make 2024 the year you write a book, and you can create your literal book as a product roadmap. Yep, chunk it down. And then do what you need to do to get there. Right?
Talia 22:39
That's totally right.
Pualena 22:40
That's kind of the scary part.
Talia 22:42
And you can actually achieve what you set out to achieve.
Pualena 22:45
Yeah, like, Oh, my God that I have to write the book. Holy moly.
Talia 22:50
Yeah. But you're totally right. And the beauty of it all is that you have the opportunity to continue to inform your decisions and your strategy along the way. Like, you don't wait until you get to the end and then realize, like you totally made the wrong choice 12 months ago, like you can't continually get to learn, and pivot your strategy as needed based on the new learnings that come along the way, while still delivering value that is actually meaningful, you know, like, you're never just building things because somebody told you to build them, and nobody ends up using them. What a waste of time, resources, energy, all of those things, right? So, being able to do things in smaller chunks, and adjust your strategy as you go along based on what feedback and learning you're doing it’s truly a winning strategy, a winning approach to like how you execute against big dreams.
Pualena 23:44
Totally, and I think that's a relief for people who are more creative-minded, because they think this process can feel stringent and very, almost limiting. Like, if you're like being forced to follow all these rules, that feels like creativity is it's like, the place where creativity goes to die. But I think that instead, it's a place where creativity gets to have the structure that it needs to formulate something impactful because without that, right? Is this helpful? I don't know. But it's fun. Like, right? That's, there's a place for that. But it might not be in business where you want to make money, right?
Talia 24:25
It could end up taking your business because you made a bunch of wrong decisions because you didn't validate the problems you're solving. No, that's totally right. And I always tell people, I am like, the least creative person on the planet. Like, give me a pencil or a can of paint like you don't want to see the end result like you really, really don't. Musical instruments. No, like, I am not creative. However, I would say that product management truly is a creative outlet for people like me, like it is my opportunity to come up with creative solutions, to come up with creative ways to solve problems and design something at the end of the day that is useful and changes people's lives, changes their workflows, makes their jobs easier, whatever it is, like it is really a creative space at the end of the day to be in product and doesn't, it shouldn't stifle creativity, but really be allow it to blossom in a way that that actually is productive.
Pualena 25:22
Completely, yeah. And I think a lot of creatives who turn their creativity into a business are sort of stuck in that space of wanting it to be a creative outlet, which I think is fine. And I think that's kind of like keep your hobby space yours, where it's something that people aren't. They're trying to like demand products from you, based on your creative juices. And for your business, allow your creativity to become a place to make an impact. And you can only know if you're making an impact, if you're having conversations, testing, getting feedback, right? It's that, it’s a loop.
Talia 26:02
100% It's a cycle that hopefully promotes not only the creative part of it but the execution and delivery at the end of the day, right? It gets you to the place where you are actually giving people you know, what you want to give them, and hopefully what they're asking for at the same time.
Pualena 26:18
Yeah, I love that. Question, in your consulting and your experience in this role as well. What are some roadblocks that you come up against with people who, I imagine this type of work brings up some like limiting beliefs or people kind of have a hard time wanting to implement this for whatever reason? What are some of those challenges, roadblocks that you come up against? How have you helped people to work through those?
Talia 26:53
Great question. I think, I mean, the one that I always go back to for product people is like, your job is to influence without authority, like your job is to convince people that the plan that you've laid out, is in fact the right one. But you rarely, if ever, actually have like authority, or like managing a team that's actually responsible for delivering for executing, implementing, rolling out, supporting, whatever, you don't manage any of those teams, you don't manage any of those people usually, but you have to convince them all that the way you've laid it out is the right way to go about something. And that can be so hard, especially when you have like, either founders who are super married to their way of doing things or their vision for how they wanted something to be done. Or you have executive teams that are very, you know, also attached to kind of maybe what the board is telling them to do, or very attached to that thing that they heard from their largest customer. And, you know, despite it not necessarily being overall, the right time, or the right way of doing things, you have to convince them otherwise. And so that's like, the hardest thing, and it's honestly both an art and a science. Like it's a hard skill to hone and takes a lot of let's call it persistence, stamina, being ruthlessly opinionated, courage to express those opinions. Especially when you feel like you're the only voice in a room saying, you know, let's go left when everybody else is saying, let's go right, you know, so it's understanding how much flexibility you want, or should be applied, how much you know, sway you have over the decision making. And one of the things I also learned is, actually, Gibson Biddle, used to be a VP of product at Netflix, and he talks about low fidelity or high fidelity risks, right? Like there's things that are very low risk, and there's things that are very high risk. And rarely are we ever making decisions as individuals within an organization that are like super unchangeable, like irretrievable, you can't step back from them. So, making sure that like, you reduce those high-risk decisions as much as possible by doing little things along the way to de-risk that and that can also prove that you are delivering the right things because you're also getting feedback after the fact. And that goes a long way in helping to convince other people that your approach, your ideas, your kind of path forward that you've outlined, are in fact, the right way of doing things. Right? But yeah, it is. It's an art and into science, and it is hard. It is hard.
Pualena 29:56
That was a beautiful answer. And I think it's, we often find ourselves in those spaces as service providers, right, because this is what the client wants. This is their vision. And all of a sudden, whether it's through user research, whether it's through data collection, we realize that that is not the best way forward. And so our job is to make recommendations based on data, based on feedback, based on tangible things that allow the client to see that there is a better option that will provide a better user experience that at the end of the day, will help them to make a better impact faster and make more money. Who doesn't want that?
Talia 30:37
Who doesn't want that, right? It seems so obvious. And yet, is such like, it's so easy to get caught up in these cycles of like, just being beaten down and told, like, No, you have to do it this way, anyways. And so it's understanding like, when to bend and when not to, you know, again, de-risking along the way, is the name of the game, if you have to go that route.
Pualena 30:59
Yeah. Do you ever coach people around having those conversations?
Talia 31:05
Oh, gosh, you know, it's really funny. So, we're doing, my company, I work for a company called The Product Consult. And we're effectively a consortium of product experts who are working on consulting projects, like the one you and I did together. And we're doing our company off-site in a couple of months. And they were like, hey, like, is there any, like, team building or education, coaching stuff that you guys are really interested in? And literally, what we talked about was like, how do you overcome some of this? How do you tell people that they're the problem without telling them, they're the problem, like, it is one of the hardest things to do. And so we're constantly learning, like, I'm constantly trying to find ways. Somebody put it to me once, it was like when you're running up against obstacles, or there's like a big rock in the way, be water, find ways to go around the problem, as opposed to trying to just like hack at it, you know, you're not going to get very far if you're just like constantly being, you know, your hammer against a rock, but be water, be flexible enough to go around and find a path forward. And that was very tangential way of saying, like, I'm still learning.
Pualena 32:20
Aren’t we all? Yeah, it's a tricky space. And I also think that without people like, without product people, or people who are in positions to help those who are in the decision-making seats to make good decisions, we would have a lot more really bad products in the world. It's kind of like the foundation that keeps the building up. Nobody thinks the foundation, but without it, the building doesn't exist.
Talia 32:50
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot of examples of like, poor products out there, like really bad designs, and you're like, who made the choices? Why on the planet would they ever think that this was the way to go? Like, they probably didn't talk to anybody about it, they probably didn't validate that that was the problem they should be solving.
Pualena 33:10
Yeah, totally. I had this conversation the other day. Yeah, there's like a, or I'm in this group text, and someone sent through a bag that they saw in a store. And they had these two emojis, and no one could figure out if the emojis meant that they liked the bag, or they didn't like the bag, but the bag was super ugly. And so we were kind of like, Oh, tell us more like what?
Talia 33:36
Who designed this?
Pualena 33:17
Yeah. Turns out, the feeling was mutual, 100%, why would anybody go through all of the effort to make like, how did it get through design? How did it get through like, I mean, the people who don't have any influence, right, but production, right, like nobody, I guess in the factory is going to be like, hey, you know, we're getting paid for, but this is ugly. It seems like they didn't ask anybody.
Talia 34:05
Yeah, there's people that should be accountable for that in the organization.
Pualena 34:07
Right? Where’s the QA in this?
Talia 34:13
The classic example I always think of is like parking meters, or like pay to park things that have 16 signs on them that say this windows, okay, but not this window, but this windows, okay, except for in this time, and then you're like, I have no idea if I can park here. Not at this time or anytime today.
Pualena 34:32
Totally and I'm trying to give you my money, but you're making that very difficult.
Talia 34:38
Like, I'm just gonna give up on my plans today. Yeah.
Pualena 34:46
Yeah. Totally, totally. Yeah, it's interesting and I think there's also that kind of mindset of, I want to execute, I want to fail, I want to fail fast. I want to learn from my failures. What do you have to say around that mindset versus like people who are just like, they're just going to put stuff out there and see what sticks, versus the people who have more of a calculated approach to their execution?
Talia 35:14
I mean, you definitely can go to the I'm gonna throw it against the wall and see what sticks way. Like you can, it's gonna be a harder, longer lesson to learn that that's probably not the best way to do things, to add value to, to put your service or offering or product or whatever out in the world. It’s going to be a harder road. And you might get lucky, you know, like, that's truly kind of it, you might get lucky. But you also might not. And you might never make money, and you might never succeed in what you actually set out to do. Or you might do it and nobody cares. And I guess if you're okay with that cool, but like, what's the point? If no one cares, you know? So, yeah, I'd say, yeah, go the opposite way. Validate test, iterate, you know.
Pualena 36:07
Yeah, it feels like a good middle ground between that personality type, and those who are just constantly stuck in like, analysis paralysis, like. They don't want to do anything because of the risk of something failing. So, yeah, this is a beautiful way to say like, don't waste your time putting things out that don't work. And also don't waste your beautiful ideas and not executing them. Because you think they won't, right? It's like, yeah.
Talia 36:40
Yeah. Try and try again. Right? Like that's, that's totally it. There's a delicate balance between the two. Don't get stuck, not doing anything, because you can't make a decision, but also don't make frivolous decisions. You know, that's just a waste of your time, and probably everybody else’s.
Pualena 37:00
Absolutely. Yeah, super cool. Well, I wish that everybody in the whole world had the opportunity to work with you because you are, you make this very tangible, very digestible, you have a really great ability to chunk it down in a way that's easy to learn and understand and to, you know, implement in the spaces that it needs to be implemented in. And I'm curious if somebody's listening to this, and they're like, I think I would like to chat more with Talia about this stuff. Is that something that you offer? How can people learn more about what you do and connect with you?
Talia 37:43
Oh, 100%, I love meeting new people, if only to kind of get to know them and the challenges they're facing and also happy to offer the product consult services, if ever somebody's in need of product help. But yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Send me an email at [email protected] You can also check out our website, which is theproductconsult.com. And yeah, anytime anybody, I will never turn down a conversation ever, and you never know who you're gonna meet and what connections you know, you're gonna make. So, anybody in everybody I welcome to get in touch if this sounds like something that could be of service to them.
Pualena 38:24
Amazing, and you also, on a personal note, I know you have traveled the world. And I would love to know two things. One, I know this is an impossible question. And I'm not gonna ask you what's your favorite country to visit? Because that is literally like the hardest question to answer. What is a country that you haven't visited, that you're excited to go to?
Talia 38:50
Okay, honestly, up next on our list is Zimbabwe and Botswana.
Pualena 38:54
Oh, my gosh, like, is that happening?
Talia 38:58
We're thinking about it for our trip this year. We did South Africa a few years ago. And it was like an incredible experience. And we've just heard such wonderful things about these other two countries in terms of like, Safari, the landscape, the biology, like, definitely among the top of our list.
Pualena 39:17
Do it. Do it. Do it. We did Botswana last year. My dad my sister. It's awesome. Because they have like camps. We can talk about it more. I will tell you everything. Yeah, but you basically there's like shuttles, but they're airplanes. And so you spend a few days in a camp that has a specific landscape or environment. And then you take this little like airplane shuttle and you go to the next camp and it's a little bit different. Oh my god, it's so cool. It is the coolest.
Talia 39:46
Okay, I'm calling you to get all of your recommendations for Botswana. That's so cool. I saw, I was also creeping on your Instagram and saw you visited Montana. Not all that long ago, a couple of years ago maybe? Glacial Park? Yeah, that’s my home.
Pualena 40:00
Oh my god, it was one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life.
Talia 40:08
I grew up there, isn't it? I love it. I mean, not a whole lot of job opportunities to be fair, but it is, it has my heart forever.
Pualena 40:17
Same. I can't I want to go back so badly. I want to go back in the summer because we went in the winter. We went for a wedding. And I'm dying to go back and–
Talia 40:23
Interesting time to do a wedding.
Pualena 40:24
Yeah. So our friends, this is so funny. Like keep listening if you like, our friends family owns. I forgot what the hotel was called. It's like a little rundown hotel next to a railroad track.
Talia 40:40
Oh, in ethics. Is it an ethics and Glacier Park?
Pualena 40:45
Possibly? I'll find it. I'll send it to you. But it was so like, because they owned it. The hotel usually isn't operating at that time. So like, only their friends were staying there for the wedding. So it was really cool. But yeah.
Talia 40:59
How special. Yeah. All right. Well, we can nerd out on Montana and Botswana. Perfect. In our next session.
Pualena 41:07
I love it. Well, Talia, thank you so, so much for sharing all of this, for sharing your knowledge with me. Again, you've changed the way that I operate my business. And I literally sometimes, like use these strategies in my life decisions. So, thank you so much for what you do. And I hope that people who got value out of this will reach out because you're a gem of a human and a wealth of knowledge.
Talia 41:34
No, the feeling's mutual, and honestly, I was saying earlier, it's like for product people you rarely get like real gratification and satisfaction. It's definitely not an instant gratification profession. Usually takes a long time to see that and along the way, everybody's beating you up for all of the other bad things that happened. So, hearing somebody say that, like the information I've provided has been of use in some little way, is just really special and means a whole lot to hear. So, thank you for giving me that opportunity and giving me the opportunity to be on my first podcast. This was like so fun.
Pualena 42:16
You nailed it. Amazing. well, thank you and your info will be in the show notes and we'll chat again soon.
Talia 42:21
Awesome. Thanks, Pua
-
In this emotionally charged episode, host Pua engages in a profound conversation with guest Keao Love, unraveling the intricacies of her transformative life journey. Keao opens up about her pivotal childhood encounter with a St. Bernard, a moment that shaped her understanding of love, pain, and self-expression. This experience shapes Keao's life, shedding light on her experiences with pet loss, self-healing, and embracing her calling as an animal communicator.
The duo explores the broader implications of Keao's work, delving into topics such as navigating grief, the significance of active listening, and the courage needed to honor one's gifts amidst skepticism. Pua skillfully guides the discussion towards the idea that embracing and expressing our unique gifts can lead to deep healing and fulfillment, not only for ourselves but for those around us and beyond. Keao's insights extend to the transformative power of the Listening Circle, a group grief support for pet loss, emphasizing the importance of creating a simple and accessible space for individuals in anticipatory grief. The episode concludes with practical advice on supporting individuals through grief and the meaningful impact of sessions for healing.
About Keao Love
Keao, pronounced kay-ow, is a remarkable animal communicator endowed with the rare ability to see, hear, and feel energy. Discovering her unique gifts at the age of nine, Keao initially suppressed them but later embraced and trusted her clairvoyant, clairaudient, and clairsentient abilities after years of personal healing. Motivated by a desire to set an example for her daughters, she courageously stepped out of the "connection closet." Keao's journey took a significant turn when she had clear visions of a grey and white mutt named Toby, who became a pivotal companion in her life. Toby's appearances in her dreams led Keao to the Hawaiian Humane Society, where she discovered him just in time, as he was scheduled to be euthanized the following day. Toby has since been a constant presence in Keao's life, supporting her in honing her animal communication gifts.
Keao uses her unique abilities to connect with animals, providing insights into their behaviors, dietary needs, and past history, particularly benefiting rescued animals. Beyond domestic animals, Keao has connected with a diverse range of creatures, from gorillas and orangutans to elephants, whales, and even the beloved panda bear Xiao Liwu. Her remarkable journey has led her to read for celebrities and their pets at prestigious events, make appearances on television, radio, and podcasts, including Freeform's Monica the Medium. Above all, Keao finds immense joy in facilitating deeper connections between humans and their pets, encouraging others to trust their intuition in understanding the profound bond they share. Her work invites people to recognize the sacredness in all sentient beings, nature, and wildlife, fostering gratitude for the interconnected love that binds everything in existence.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Aloha Rosaleis by Geralyn Kamahaʻo Camarillo--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Keao Love | Connect with Keao:
Website: Connect with KeaoInstagram: love2connectFacebook: Connect with KeaoListening CircleOne-on-one Sessions--
Transcript:
Keao 00:00
And in that space, the gifts, it was really strong that I needed to embody them.t was almost like, you know, stop wasting your time. And then there is a fear of what will people think about me and they're, you know, people very close to me in my life that don't agree with what I do and in our relationships have shifted and that too, in itself is healing. In the sense of being confident and strong in my own knowing of that is their projection and their experience and not mine. And that I know that the work that I'm doing is healing and helpful to humans and animals.
Keao 00:28
Well, there's everybody's been in this space of what do I do with my gifts? What? How can I offer them and a lot of people are coming out of that, that murkiness and for me personally, I have felt such clarity recently. And I feel like December, December 20, just last year, 2023 was, I don't know, it was just it was difficult and everything just kind of slowed down. And then all of a sudden, in the last probably three weeks, it's like, oh, clouds, you know, parted the sun is out. And me personally, I am writing the book that's been inside in my heart. I told my friend the other day that I'm having Braxton Hicks contractions. It's like, we're coming out. And one of my clients is an author, she's her and her writing partner have written I think they're on their seventh book right now. And she has given me such wisdom and advice on the format and where to start and where to begin. And also, there's been so much healing that we all do, I think in a service-based industry, you do a lot of self-healing. So, there's been so much self-healing, and so much of that has been attributed to using the gifts. And this book that I'm writing, The Thread of Toby, it starts with the story of how my whole life, I was told a story about, I have two dog bites on my face. One is from a little dog when I was two, that bit me because I was hugging it too tight. And then this other one under my lip. This was a St. Bernard that bit me and pushed me down. And my whole life I heard he was just telling you to shut up because you're being loud and he didn't like loud noises and you're playing with a balloon and you were being loud and he just. And my whole life, I heard he just pushed you down, took a little snip out of your face to say shut up. So, hearing that my entire life is like okay, don't love too much, don't be too loud, don't speak out. And it wasn't you know, an intentional thing. But as a child, you hear that you hear that then I start repeating that own story to myself. And then any time I, you know, wanted to come out with these gifts or do something out of the norm, like, oh, you know, don't be too loud, don't that like was concrete in my brain of that story. And I tuned into that St. Bernard, five years ago, I was sitting at my vanity Toby's out my feet, and I was getting ready. And I looked in my magnification, mirrored little, you know, like this 100-time magnification. I'm at that stage in my life. Looking at my scar, and there's it's a little U and a little like T and I put my tooth over it. And I realized he never bit me. I bit my own lip when he pushed me down and what I remember from that was, I hear the sound of him. He was like a 90-pound St. Bernard, I hear the sound, I was maybe seven or eight years old. The next thing I know, I'm being pushed to the ground. I hit my head and I see his face over me. And I think I passed out. I don't know. Next thing I know. You know, I'm crying. I'm bleeding. We're at the doctor's office. And it just felt like I remember as a child I just didn't receive what I probably needed to hear at that time. I maybe didn't receive the nurturing I may have needed at that time. And that stays with you and your body in your energetic self, in your physical body and then in the brain. It's like over and over. So, when I had that realization, I was like, Oh my gosh, he didn't bite me. I connected, his name is Prince. I connected with Prince and there was just this deep, deep understanding and awareness that yes, he pushed me down, he could have took my whole face off, you know, bit my own lip. He was he didn't like the sound I was being a child I was in joy. I was making a bunch of noise, he didn't like it. And this is a dog that we only had for a few weeks, my dad brought a full-grown St. Bernard home from the pound from the, like, the Humane Society. We didn't really know his history. Clearly, he doesn't like loud sounds, but it was just it. That story knowing that was so healing. And then for the past five years, I have been unravelling that story that I've heard over and over. He told you to shut up, he was just telling you to shut up. I mean, that's not something a child needs to hear. And then me repeating that story over and over. As I would tell it to other people, and then to myself, Oh my gosh, it's just, I was wound so tight in that and releasing that having that awareness and I had this profound healing, just recently, as I'm writing about this, that I stopped. I was sitting on the floor. And I just, I closed my eyes. And I asked myself, What did my little child need to hear? In that moment? What was she needing? And then I just in meditation, just kind of went back and said all the things to her that she needed to hear and kind of rewriting that story. Moving forward.
Pualena 07:05
Oh, my gosh. That’s beautiful. I didn't know that at all about your scars or anything. Wow. This is so it's such a full-circle moment because the first time I met you was on a podcast, probably seven years ago now. And you had a different kind of coming out moment where you were. This sounds like we are talking about something else but we are not.
Keao 07:37
Not that kind of coming out.
Pualena 07:39
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but not–
Keao 07:41
Not at all.
Pualena 07:42
Let me call it a spiritual coming-out party, we did call it that. It was this like, beautiful moment. And I have to tell you, not only did I listen to that interview, over and over again, because you introduced your pedal process. And that's something that I like listened to and used as a tool. I can't tell you how many times. I also was, and still am so inspired by your story. And when people come to me or if even I'm feeling like, I'm sort of hiding and feeling like I'm playing small than unmasking my gifts, whatever those may be at the time. I think about the courage that you shared in that moment, and that you continue to share. And it sounds like courage that you've kind of found within at many points in your life, to bring your gifts to the world in the face of potential adversity or skepticism or, you know, it can be scary. It can be hard. And all of these people and connections that you've made, and animals and I can't wait for people to hear finally what you do, because we've been very, we haven’t actually said it yet. None of that would have happened, had you not, you know, said this is what I'm here to do. So, thank you for that for inspiring me time and time again via podcast interview. Yeah, can you share a little bit about what you do and also who Toby is?
Keao 09:21
Yeah, so my name is Keao and I am an animal communicator. And I also, I help people through the many different facets of having a beloved animal in their life, including the grief, including end of life, anticipatory grief, ongoing grief, and that too has been inspired by my beloved dog Toby. Toby who came to me in a dream. Gosh, how long has it been now? 20 years ago. He lived to be 18. And yeah it was about 20 years ago, we were living there in Hawaii, he came to me three times in a dream soak. So very clear, with an urgency to come find him. And we just kind of opened up that energy, Okay, time for a dog. I didn't know what I was looking for but he came in so very clear. When I did find him, I found him the day before he was going to be euthanized at the Hawaiian Humane Society. And he's ever since that day, he has been so instrumental in helping me to really embody the gifts, come out with the gifts and trust them. And when I was very first, on one of your podcasts, I was talking about hiding the fact that I can see and that I was, you know, a medium and I can see energy. And I hid that because I was also at that time a wedding photographer.
Pualena 11:06
I forgot about that.
Keao 11:08
Yeah on the islands. Yeah. Because then now people would ask, so did you know what couples we're gonna make it or not?
Pualena 11:16
Did you?
Keao 11:17
Sometimes you can just, you know. But you're in a different mode then. But it was through the move coming back to California, that my everything just stopped for me and crumbled and I was so depressed. I didn't want to leave and in that space, the gifts it was really strong that I needed to embody them, it was almost like, you know, stop wasting your time. And then there is a fear of what will people think about me and they're, you know, people very close to me in my life that don't agree with what I do and in our relationships have shifted and that too, in itself is healing. In the sense of being confident and strong in my own knowing of that is their projection and their experience and not mine. And that I know that the work that I'm doing is healing and helpful to humans and animals.
Pualena 12:28
I think that's something that everybody needs to hear because there is always going to be someone right, just because you don't necessarily have I'm going to preface this with we all have spiritual gifts. But if that's not something that you–
Keao 12:42
We do.
Pualena 12:43
Right? We can dive deep into that. But even if it's just like, you know, my parents wanted me to be a lawyer or a doctor or, but I want to be an artist, I want to have my own business like anything that requires you to follow your gifts and your path in almost direct, like, conflict with what the people closest to you want to see you do. Because they love you maybe because they want to see you succeed, maybe because they're afraid of their own mistakes being recreated. Even though that's not going to happen, right? There are so many reasons why people project their own stuff on you. And it feels like the path of least resistance to just say, Okay, I'll do that. Okay, I'll go to law school. Okay, I'll be an architect and like, you're screaming at yourself inside, you're unhappy. This happens all the time. And so for people to hear that, you know, it's okay to own your gifts, to use them and to be gentle with yourself, right? Because if that's a path that you've been on, and you're like, Oh my God, that's me. I don't know what to do. Have I gone too far? Am I into deep? Do I just have to retire and then do the things that I want? How would you speak to those people? What would you say?
Keao 14:05
What I realized is the people who love you the most and who want you to do, you know the thing that or you know, be the doctor or the lawyer or whatever or not be an animal communicator. It's because you have a role. You play a role in their eyes, in the family, in the dynamics, in the relationship, you play a role and that person is very comfortable with you in that role. When you have your realization of, there's more to me, there's more to this role. There's gifts that I have that I want to offer. You shift and you change and it can make the other people in your life who love you, uncomfortable. And then that can create friction. And that can create, you know, a disconnect. It is their own perception that is making them feel uncomfortable. And most often, yes, it is done out of love, or maybe their own beliefs, their own belief system. And it does, it can be hard sometimes, it really can be hard. I'm speaking from absolute truth and experience. And then that's when you can pause, and you can really, you know, feel into yourself. And is this the right thing to do? My biggest thing right now in my life as I am getting older. Is this bringing me joy? If not, I'm reassessing. Why am I doing this? Why am I here? Why am I staying in this space? I am not in joy, I'm not fulfilled, I am not living my truth.
Pualena 16:00
You're so good about that. Yeah.
Keao 16:02
Thank you. And I do know we absolutely cannot change anyone else. We can only change ourselves. We are responsible solely for the way we respond to those people that might be you know, trying to suppress us, we are solely responsible for that; we are not responsible for other people's actions, only our own.
Pualena 16:33
It's advice that we hear often that can be really easy to give. And when you're like, Yeah, okay, I know, but and you said a beautiful example of like, thinking about and this is a conversation I have a lot and it can be challenging to see it in the not real space yet. Where it's like, think of all the people you can help and you're like, well, am I going to help a lot of people? I don't know yet because I haven't helped them. And, you know, this happens a lot when people are delaying a launch or unsure of what they are going to do or how they should do it, or why they should do it. Or could do it, I should say. And there's always that sort of like if I don't do this, if I delay this any longer then people are suffering because I'm not able to help them with my gifts. It's something I go through all the time. You know, it's like, what's another week, nobody's using it right now, who's really suffering, they don't even know I'm here. Right? But if you think about so since you've launched your program, and what I really want to sort of go back to something that you said, and I don't know if this will take us off track. Because I do this all the time. I have like five things I want to talk about. But really fast. When you say I don't do things that or I want to do things that bring me joy and reassess, often, to make sure that those things are in alignment still, because we change as people, we can change. And what you say to me a lot as we work together is I just want this to be simple. Whatever we want to do, let's make it simple. And you are such a great example of being able to create spaces and programs and offerings and ways to support those who need what you do with simplicity, with ease. We don't need a complex funnel. We don't need 500,000 recordings before we launch, we, you know, we need a Zoom link, we need to wait for people to learn about you and we need a way for them to sign up. The rest can come if we need to. Right? So, I just wanted to acknowledge that from you. And we can talk about that more if you want to. And you know, thinking about your most recent launch with the listening circle, which I'd love for you to share more about. We sort of like massage this idea for months. And I look back now and I think everything happens in the right timing. And the people that you're helping seem to now breathe a sigh of relief because they know that this program exists and that you're there to support them. Knowing that and looking back and thinking had you just you know, said you know what? I don't know, I don't know about this. Let's just scrap it. Right? These people would literally be suffering. So, I don't know. There's no question in there. We can talk about whatever you want to talk about from there.
Keao 19:37
I really appreciate you, the reminder of how beneficial this is, the listening circle and the listening circle is its group grief support for pet loss. That's what the listening circle is. It helped so much to have you by my side, reflecting what I was wanting to convey, contribute and put out there, it helps so much. Because every time I have something like, oh, I want to do this, and it's in my brain, it's in my head, and you just get on the computer, does it look like this? I mean, it's giving me chills right now, because you're so amazing at that. You're like, yeah, I see that and hear it and you refine it, and you put it, you make it a tangible thing for people to actually come to, or else it still be floating around in the ethers. And you're so good at that. And that really helped. You helped me get a lot of clarity on what I wanted this to look like, and feel like. And number one, it had to be simple. I didn't want the whole scroll down to find just sign me up. Scroll down for two minutes to find the join here button. So, that's been really, really helpful. And yes, I am hearing from the participants in the listening circle, that this is very beneficial because not only are we receiving group support around pet loss for the humans, but their pets are joining us in the circle, the pets who have crossed over the pets in the present. And it's so precious, it is so sweet. Because they're in the circle with us. So, it's very healing. And well, we just really ride those waves because we hold space for someone who’s having a rough time that week, or we're laughing because something happened, you know, and it's very, very intimate right now, it's very small. I really wanted to focus on anticipatory grief, because it's a really hard space to be in. And then I really wanted to also be there for the people who are in ongoing grief support. What I've learned since these circles have been opened in August of 2023, what I've learned is, it was beneficial to combine the circles to have one space so they can all hear from each other and support each other. And that's been pretty effective.
Pualena 22:39
That's beautiful.
Keao 22:41
I just need to say what I've also learned is it's okay to be vulnerable in the space. What I've also learned is everybody across the board, my clients, vets, rescues, veterinarians, everybody's like, Oh, we need this, this is great. But nobody wants to be seen as so vulnerable in a group setting, because pet loss is heartbreaking. And you will cry, which is very good and very healthy. People would rather book a one-on-one session and have that which is perfectly fine. I love that. It's an honor. But that's what I learned. It's like it's there for you. But people would rather have an have a one-on-one session.
Pualena 23:36
Yeah, I get that. I mean, I kind of felt the same before. So, I got to join the first one. And I just expected to just be tech support, like, give me a zoom and just help where I can. I wasn't expecting pet loss. My pets that had passed, passed years ago. Like I didn't necessarily. It's not that I didn't think I would get anything out of it. But I just you know, I was I was there as tech support. And I got to enjoy and I see that like you're enjoying people's grief. But it was really a beautiful enjoyable space where people did share. And I was like, this has to be something that you sort of experience to believe. Because even for me, I was like I don't want to talk about grief in front of people. I don't want to cry in front of people. And I was sort of glad to just have this background role. And what I realized was part of the healing process that you provide, you are a conduit, you are a connector for sure and you facilitate the sessions. And there's another layer of healing that comes from listening to other people's stories and listening to you connecting with other people's animals. And you can think about you know, what you might relate with or you start to come up with questions that you didn't think you had or just realizations. And what's the most impact or at least for me, what was the most impactful was I think there's a lot of guilt that surrounds the space of pet grief because they can't communicate with us in the way that we communicate with each other. And so we're often like, were they okay? Did they were they in pain? Did I do everything I could? Or you can almost create stories for yourself, that may not be true, right? Just like the dog bite, like, did I do this? Is this my fault? Right. And so, yeah, it's just from top to bottom, it is just the most wonderful offering and thank you for having the courage to put it out into the world.
Keao 25:47
Yes, I was going through it myself with Toby and it was so hard, it was so hard because everybody even my veterinarian looked to me for the when, you know, he posed the question, how long are you going to let your friend suffer? I know.
Pualena 26:11
Ouch. Like, excuse me, bedside manner training, please.
Keao 26:20
And then I had to be the one to get the whole family on board. There is a lot of guilt that comes with end of life. I do not have, I have I have zero guilt around Toby's passing. I have guilt around, you know, like, sometimes of frustration, you know, because it, he had dementia, and he was blind and he was deaf. And, you know, sometimes just like, Okay, where do we need to be? No, you know, but just really, you know, loved him up, of course, and he was in kidney failure, heart failure, could barely walk and I knew, it's just, it was a, it was a really hard choice, I knew he wasn't going to go on his own. And that's, it was a very, that is one of the deepest acts of love you can do for your pet, is to help them cross over. And over and over. I mean, hundreds of sessions I've done, the animal, lets the human know, I except when we make this decision together, I receive the help in helping me. I receive that help. And the number one question I get asked after they cross is, are they okay? And I always pause to wait for the answer from the animal because there isn't a blanket answer for this. It's a yes, it's an absolute yes. But I wait to see what the animal, you know, is going to say it's, and they have different feelings that they project upon me because I do connect with animals who have crossed over as well. And it's always a yes, and I'm at peace and I'm no longer, you know, feeling the pain or I'm no longer you know, having ongoing seizures or I'm not, you know, whatever it is, whatever it may be, but you're absolutely right, so many people do experience that guilt. That is something we can unravel too.
Pualena 28:28
Definitely. Yeah, and the way that you facilitate the connections is really interesting to me too. I think before somebody does a session with you or experiences your gifts, I mean, you have a great Instagram and you do post little clips, which I encourage everybody to go find you on Instagram @love2connect. We'll put that in the show notes, you also posted about the Grammys, Oscars, both?
Keao 28:56
Yes, both.
Pualena 29:01
Super cool. We can talk about that. Well, one thing that I just, I don't know the way that you because there's a lot of like I think innocent skepticism is what I'll say, right, people are just like how does it work? I don't understand, I don't have that ability. You might, but we don't let ourselves use it, right? Juicy. We’ll talk about that. You'll say things like I'm seeing a visor like a car visor like the one that blocks the sun when you're driving, what? And a woman was like, oh my god, I put a little or do you remember this? There was someone that she put like a little crane or something in there? To represent her dog. There was something I was like how the heck there's no way like it's and it's not like you're like the dog is saying hello and how are you. It's, I didn't know what to expect, either. And I was like, oh, okay, I get it. It's almost like there's little breadcrumbs and clues. And so yeah, let's talk about that and sort of what that experience is like as a connector and let’s talk about people muting their own gifts.
Keao 30:19
Oh, yes. So, the process and how I connect, I want to say, in talking this through with you, and talking about going back to the beginning of, you know, oh I can see, I've always been this way, you know, I'm weird, I'm different. I thought everybody saw the way I did, when I realized they didn’t as a little girl, like, oop, shut it down. It wasn't talked about, it wasn’t cultivated. Nothing like that, then, you know, it was, hey, you get the validation or the confirmation from other people of yes, that is correct. That's confidence. There's a sense of really building up your confidence to and then trust of what you're receiving, the messages. Through my coming out as a medium, seer, or whatever, animal communicator. That process, going through that whole process of building up that muscle of seeing, it is like a muscle, then owning it, hone and own I think I said last time. Hone your gifts and own your gifts. Honing it and owning it that you start feeling that in the body. Then I created the pedal process for people. I read for people first and I would read through their energy, through their chakras, I could see timelines. I could, you know, kind of remote see energy in the home and I could feel you know, what was going on with them. I wasn't like psychically predicting things, it wasn't like that. I was seeing their energy, seeing blocked energy. Then through that, so through all the gifts, and through all of my journey of what do I call myself now? And who am I? What am I doing the animals were always there, like, Hey, I've got a message for my human. And I would very nonchalantly acknowledge that, for years, until somebody amongst my peers asked who the animal communicator was in the group. And everybody pointed to me, and it was like, Oh, it just came so natural for me. And then once I thought, Oh, I really, really want to dedicate my gifts to the animals, and for the animals. And when that happened, it was like, boom, boom, boom, everything went into alignment. And it was effortless. And I reached out to you, okay, we need to revamp this website. This is what we're doing now. But it was everything you do, I call it layered learning. Every workshop, every retreat, every class you take, every experience you have is layered learning to get you to the space, you know, where maybe you're meant to be or you're aligned to be or you are in your pure joy. Layered learning, you have to go through all of those experiences to get to where you're at. And so I never set out to learn animal communication, it came very natural. And then I chose not to learn from another animal communicator, because I wanted my own process. And it's very unique. And I know, I mean, there are many different ways to connect. For me, I start connecting through their name, if it's a domestic animal. I ask for the name of the animal. Names carry a vibration. Through that is how we get permission from the animal. Then they use all of my physical senses. I feel what they're feeling, emotional and physical. Then I see whatever they're showing, the detail of you know, whether it's leaving a little train in the visor as momento for their beloved that's passed over. Or it's you know, in the present, seeing, I don't know whatever they need to see about behavior issues, then going down their timeline. It's fascinating to me how the animals understand time, they will use years, they will tell us how old they are. They will help us understand, Oh, I don't like getting in the car because when I was four years old, you got into a car accident. They showed, yeah, they will bring us down a timeline and then seeing I just forgetting the word for it. Claire, just forgetting the word because I'm actually seeing. Clairvoyant. There's clairvoyant where you actually see. And then I also hear, and then I also can taste, smell, all of it, they use all of my senses, all of my senses. Every person, every human also has these abilities, we do. If we go all the way back into our humaneness and our evolution, this is how human beings used to communicate, there is a remembrance of, we used to communicate telepathically through a knowing, through vision, through feeling with nature, with the animals, with the trees, with the elements. This is how it was way back when. We can now to this day present in 2024, we can explain how this works. There's actual space in the brain, the right side of the brain, I can never remember what it's called. That is the receptor for telepathic communication. We are also all pure energy, we are pure energy, and so are the animals, the animals are high vibe, energy. So yes, you have to kind of match that should be able to have this arc of and be a conduit of connection with them. And it just, when we're able to help the humans understand, there's, this is a way of communication, and you are also doing this, it's just a matter of taking the time to have that connection. If you want to explore it more and go deeper into it, you must create the time to do so. And then take the classes, take the courses, I do have a meditation on my website that people can do and I'm starting to really teach that and that's going to be another circle soon. Because people are asking they want that. But yeah, that's that's how I do it. I love bringing people in here with me and I love during a session when I get to confirm for them, you're already talking to your animals, you're already hearing them whether they're in the present or they've crossed over. It’s all energy.
Pualena 37:37
So awesome. So, we really all just need to hone in on our own gifts. Unless we don't want to. Because is that another thing? Right? Like, do you think people don't? Because they're scared?
Keao 37:51
100%, yes. That's the thing is the fear. Fear prevents us from honing and owning. Oh my gosh, fear makes it murky. There's fear of some people are like, Oh, I don't you want to know what my animals thinking. I don't even want to know what they think of me.
Pualena 38:09
It's like, you'll filter it for them. So, they don't have to hear it from literally the horse's mouth.
Keao 38:15
I take pride in my delivery. Let me just say that. I take pride in my human communication. I do. I take pride in the fact that the message is being delivered and received. But there's fear, yes. Because, again, Pua, we've been told for so long that, Oh, that's weird, or this isn't normal, or you can’t do that. But it's like, what we're wired to do this. And especially in this day and age, where we have so many other tools that we are connecting through right now that can that there are so many tools that can enhance our lives. Absolutely. AI, all the things We love it, they can enhance our lives. However, let us not remember our own innate gifts and wisdom and our ability for the connection.
Pualena 39:20
Yeah, I think this is a very timely message. Right? Yeah. Like for humanity.
Keao 39:30
I get so fired up because, you know, nobody wants to be, Oh, you know, I can't, I don't agree with you and I can't talk to you anymore and I can't, nobody wants that. It's just like hey, I'm, I'm okay. Join me here. You know, that's my biggest message is there's a remembrance of we're all capable of doing this. And your animals will love it.
Pualena 40:05
There's this imagery in my mind of tree rings. And when you were talking about layered learning and sort of this remembrance of who you are as a tree, the older you get, the more rings you have, which matures you right, there's the old trees with all that bark and all that they're just so much character, the young like thin, Twig, little sprouts that have no rings yet. Those don't go away over time, like the rings that are in the center are still there. It's still, we haven't lost that in us. We just haven't looked at it recently.
Keao 40:52
That's so beautiful circles. And of course, as you're talking, I am seeing the rings. And I'm seeing where there was drought one year, and I see.
Pualena 41:02
It's imprinted in us.
Keao 41:00
I see. Yeah, yes. That's a beautiful metaphor. I love that.
Pualena 41:07
I feel like you came up with that. I just was talking to someone and she was like, I don't remember that. She was telling me about her gifts, very similar to you, and that she had always just kind of been called on to do like funeral services. And you know, house blessing or something weird is going on in my house, can you come do a blessing and someone in the family would be like, oh, can you call her like, there was no reason why they should be calling her she wasn't known for it. It wasn't her job. But for some reason, she kept being called. And I was like, I think it's the people who passed that are calling you and they're like telling their family members to call you. I know that sounds crazy. And she goes no, not at all. And like she was how did you figure that out? And was like, I don't know, I think part of what I do well is like, I'm a mirror. And you know, when you were talking earlier, and people have said this before, like, oh my god, you pulled about what was in my mind, and you put it on the website? And it's like, I couldn't necessarily describe it exactly. It's what I envisioned. And I will tell you, not everybody has that experience with me. I have had clients who were like, Oh, I don't know, not at all, not even close. And the difference is, I take total responsibility for not nailing it as often as I do. And also, most times in that situation, the client actually has a lack of clarity of who they are, who their audiences are, what they do. And so it's very difficult to create clarity out of thin air. You are very clear, you have this beautiful clarity of who you are, in this moment. And that can change, right? And so that's part of the reflection and the creation that I do. And it's not that you have clarity around your exact design, but you have clarity around the energetic role that you play in the world. I experienced that, where I was like, I hired somebody to do something, I wasn't clear, it came back and I was like, you don't get me at all. They were like, well, actually, you don't get you yet, so come back to us when you figure that out. So, I don't know, again, not a question. I do that a lot.
Keao 43:47
Not a question, but that's in conversation. Yes. And that acknowledgment of, I feel like the acknowledgement of you helping people get clear, because I remember when you have worked with me for throughout these seven years in my evolution of showing, you know, the world, okay, this is what we're doing. Okay, this is what we're doing now. Okay, no, here it is. That’s how it’s been, but that's what I'm talking about, like you say the tree rings and the layered learning. I use everything that I've learned and gone through today. It all comes together in a session and it's so beautiful. And even though if you're not clear right now, on exactly what you're doing. Immerse yourself in the learning. Immerse yourself, take a course. Do something different. I'm telling you when you do something out of the norm, that's when you get the clarity like, either, Oh, I love this, or this is not what I'm wanting at all. So, often we sign up for classes, and we think we're signing up for one thing, and we're getting a completely different experience, that happens so often.
Pualena 45:21
Yeah, sell them what they want, give them what they need phenomenon. Right? Like for you, I think people are looking for support and answers, and just how do I stop feeling this way? And, you know, it's sort of that like, I'm in this intense pain, and I just need support. I need somebody who understands, and what they may not know, that they're gonna get from you is this beautiful community of support and learning from other people, as much as learning from you. I think people want you, they want Keao, they want to, you know, they're gonna book a session with you. And they're like, I hear this listening circle is good. I'm a little scared, I don't want to cry in front of the group, I'm just going to listen, I'm not going to talk. And I hope that Keao and I can connect. That's like, before the session, everybody's thoughts. And what they don't realize is the community is such a beautiful part of that experience. And you just wouldn't, I would never have expected to get so much. I just went to one session and it was one of the most incredible live sessions I've ever experienced in my life. So, if anybody's listening to this, and you feel like you or a loved one, or anybody, you know, might benefit from a listening circle or a session with you, how can people get in touch with you?
Keao 46:52
They can go to my website, www.connectwithkeao.com and click on the listening circle, if you are in support of pet loss, and need that grief support. We do carry guilt and these strong emotions around our pet loss because so often people think that it's not so widely accepted and that people don't understand them.
Pualena 47:21
The Oh, it's just a dog. Why are you sad?
Keao 47:23
Yep, I hear that all the time.
Pualena 47:24
Oh, my gosh.
Keao 47:26
I hear that all the time. So, this community Oh, no, you know, this is your beloved and your family member. So yeah. Also, when our grief is witnessed, that's when it's the most healing. When somebody else sees and acknowledges your pain. Ah, that is so healing. That is so healing. If you do not want that, and you want the one-on-one sessions, you can click on the sessions page, and I'd be so honored to be with you and in a one-on-one session as well. Walk you through and connect with all the beloveds.
Pualena 48:14
Amazing, and you also have gifts. I find this to be like the most epic gift ever, like if so, I actually had another client who came on a call with me and just like, more or less broke down out of the blue, what seemed very out of the blue, and I was like, what's happening? And he was like, my cat like we adopted this cat and I don't, he wasn't, I didn't expect to have this connection with him. And I just, I can't get through losing him. It's been a couple of weeks, and I just don't know why. And I was like say no more. I know exactly who to connect you with. And I gifted him a session and I just sometimes we don't know what to do when somebody expresses their feelings to you and their grief. And you're such a wonderful space of support where I think you and I talked about creating resources of like, what, how to support somebody going through grief and what to say and what to not say and like that to me, I think it's useful. We should do that. I forgot about that.
Keao 49:24
That's been sitting idle. It's there. It's there. We need another pullout session, a Pua pullout session. Puaout, out of my brain.
Pualena 49:37
Oh my gosh. Like, honestly, I think even for human loss. Like there are things that you can it's hard, right? I don't know what to say. I want to be there for you. I really don't know how to support you. And that's an awkward space to be as a friend or a family member. So yeah, let’s do it.
Keao 50:01
Right, let's do that. In the meantime, the biggest thing you can do to support someone who is experiencing pet loss is to listen. Ask the question, I see you're hurting, is there anything I can do to support you? I'm here just to listen. You can send a text, I know you're hurting right now, you may not want to talk about this. You don't need to respond. Please just know I'm thinking about you. It's as simple as that. It's as simple as that. They may be in such grief. You know, they may not have dinner, send them send them a gift certificate for food. Bring them food, no need to respond. Just know I'm thinking about you. Please, take yourself as well. Yeah, like, yeah, it's very simple.
Pualena 50:51
There, I think, at least for me, I always go to the call if you need anything, or you know, it's a genuine offer. I'm here, if you need anything, reach out if you need anything. And I hear people often will say like, I'm not gonna reach out, even though I need it. And I had a friend actually her father passed away. And she was like, I thank you, I have a hard time asking for help. And she only said it because we're like, very, very close. But I think a lot of us have a hard time asking for help. I just told someone that this morning. So yeah, that's really good advice.
Keao 51:31
Absolutely, it is. So, when you're in grief, you don't want to think about other things. A simple task can be overwhelming. And so if you just take it upon yourself to send that text, no need to respond. I'm thinking about you. I sent you, you know, I emailed you a link to get dinner. Or you know, if you're nearby, I dropped off some food for you. Little things like that go a long way and then letting the person know that you are there. I'm here. Anytime.
Pualena 52:16
That's so beautiful. Yeah, thank you. That's such a great tool. And just, yeah, it's genuine. It's a beautiful way to help and it doesn't pressure them to say like, text me when you need help. Because you're like, I know what I need. I'm not going to do it. But you know, yeah.
Keao 52:37
And there are so many wonderful gifts that you can also send to somebody who is grieving. Aloha, Geralyn Camarillo, who has Aloha Rosaleis, she makes these wonderful pet talismans, they're just so beautiful. And that would be a wonderful gift to send. I had a dear friend send me a different crystals that support different aspects of grief. And it was so beautiful. The same dear friend brought five different kinds of Kleenex boxes, and tissue boxes just didn't know what kind you liked, so here are 5 boxes of tissue paper, it was so sweet. And what a lot of people do is they go to my website, and they go to the gifting part of the sessions, and they will gift a session to the grieving friend, or loved one.
Pualena 53:34
Amazing. We'll link that in the show notes. If any of this resonates and oh my gosh, I just love you. Thank you so much.
Keao 53:40
Oh, love you Pua.
Pualena 53:42
This is amazing.
Keao 53:47
If it weren't for you, I would still be just kind of floating around and telling people from my rooftop about this. Thank you because I also delayed the, you know, I had this idea. Here it is, you saw it and then I sat on it and you would check in with me. Are you ready to launch it? No, not ready and then I think at what point, is this dumb?
Pualena 54:16
I was like it's not dumb. But it's done with an N. And so all you have to do is tell people about it.
Keao 54:25
I know it's like what, how do I, I mean I dragged my feet on it because it was another reminder. Don't speak up. Don't be too loud. It was another reminder. And so you set a date. Okay, we're doing it on this date. And we actually did it on Toby's birthday, which was September 1st, we launched it. Yeah. So thank you Pua. Thank you for giving this sacred space a place to land.
Pualena 54:56
Thank you. You do beautiful work in the world. It's an honor to work with you. And thank you for sharing time today.
Keao 55:00
Yay, Thank you.
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Join Pualena in an engaging conversation with Cassie Castillo, a licensed clinical social worker and mindset coach, as they explore the intersection of therapy and coaching. Cassie's expertise shines as she shares her journey of seamlessly blending clinical practice at Whole Hawaii Counseling with her passion for mindset coaching. The episode delves into empowering working women against burnout, unveiling Cassie's innovative journaling approach—a dynamic space for self-reflection. Gain valuable insights on navigating burnout, the transformative power of mindset coaching, and Cassie's unique journaling practice.
The conversation extends to the internal struggles professionals face, emphasizing the balance between self-diagnosis and external support. Cassie envisions a comprehensive well-being service, including group coaching and retreats, underscoring the importance of community in overcoming burnout and fostering personal growth. This episode is a holistic exploration of therapeutic and coaching approaches, offering actionable insights for listeners.
About Cassie Castillo
Cassandra, or Cassie, is a compassionate and dedicated professional in the field of mental health. She holds a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and a Master's in Social Work from the University of Hawaii at Mānoa. As a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) in the state of Hawaii, Cassie specializes in working with adults and couples, with a profound commitment to fostering healing through love and empathy.
Adopting a person-centred approach, Cassie places individuals at the core of their therapeutic journey. Her practice incorporates a strengths-based perspective, encouraging clients to recognize and leverage their innate strengths to enhance overall well-being. Hailing from Hawaii, Cassie wholeheartedly embraces the "aloha spirit," infusing it into her counseling relationships to create an atmosphere where clients feel heard, validated, and empowered. Cassie's mission is to guide individuals in their growth towards becoming their whole selves, promoting self-discovery and personal empowerment.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Becoming WHOLE: A Self-Care Journal to bring you more gratitude, mindfulness, and reflection--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Cassie Castillo | WHOLE Hawaii: Counseling and Services:
Website: wholehawaiillc.comInstagram: @wholebycassApple PodcastSpotify Podcast--
Transcript
Cassie 00:00
A lot of the time we can be in our own head and feel like we're all alone. And so being able to, I like the community aspect, too, is to know that, okay, I'm not the only one that's feeling this way. And there's 10 other people that are feeling exactly how I'm feeling.
Pualena 00:22
Okay, what's your name?
Cassie 00:24
Cassie.
Pualena 00:25
What's your business?
Cassie 00:25
Whole Hawaii Counseling and Services.
Pualena 00:28
Who do you serve?
Cassie 00:30
I serve all people of Hawaii. All, 18 and over, I serve you.
Pualena 00:40
What services do you offer?
Cassie 00:42
I offer counseling and side coaching, mindset coaching.
Pualena 00:48
Amazing. That was cool. Okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna think of good questions. Cause those were predictable. I want to talk about your side and your full-time gig. I love that you do both. Do you have like, because you know, some people are like, I hate my job, so I started a side business because I want it to become a full business. For you, it seems more integrated than that. Walk me through that.
Cassie 01:19
Yeah. So, the main thing is, or what I got my degree in is licensed clinical social worker. And the idea was always to be able to start my own practice. And so that's kind of where that Whole Hawaii Counseling comes in, is it's actually under my clinical licensure, it's me building up, you know, clients that way, like through insurances. But my passion project, what I really like to call it, is my side thing. So, my mindset coaching. And the idea for that is, for me to be able to service more, so tailored more towards working businesswomen and helping them through burnout. Because I think like, all of us are experiencing burnout, especially with women where we feel like we have to wear so many different hats. And so like helping them understand like, okay, burnout doesn't need to, you don't need to have that factor in there to be successful. And my idea really, is to be able to have these like mental wellness, coaching weekend things where I bring on different providers. So, it could be somebody who's maybe doing yoga or somebody who's doing sound baths, someone who is talking about nutrition. And it's not even necessarily just like me talking about coaching and all of these, like different mental wellness strategies, but bringing in also other people to let them know, like, okay, there's so many different avenues that you can take to make sure that you don't get to this point of burnout. And so that you're also making sure that you're servicing your people at the best that you can, and you're creating these connections at the best of your ability.
Pualena 03:24
Dang. So, I totally now see how they work together. Because it was I wasn't sure exactly, you know, where your full-time career sort of that like clinical practice where that line was, and where your coaching started. Super epic ideas and amazing way to serve literally everybody in the state. I love the idea of addressing burnout. I just listened to a podcast episode. I'll send this to you after. And the woman spoke about the 2024 signs of burnout, which are different from signs of burnout in the past. And the way that it, she called it the canary in the coal mine. And it's sort of like your body's signs that you are experiencing burnout. What are your thoughts around that? Like, how do we know that we're burned out when we're just sort of like, this is just my life? Like, there's no other way for all this stuff to get done? Like, you can't help me. This is just how I have to live.
Cassie 04:35
Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing, right? It's like feeling like you have to live this way. Right? Okay. Like, I just have to grind I just have to hustle. Like it doesn't have to be that way. And I think we're starting to shift as a culture a little more into understanding that it doesn't have to be this hustle culture, right? Like we don't have to wake up and 24/7 be doing something in order to feel like we are being productive. But I still think that there's like this, this underlying tone of like, okay, if we're not doing something, then we must not be utilizing ourselves to the best of our ability. And like, that's something I try to tell. Even my clients I've tried to tell myself too right, is rest is just as important as whatever productive things you need to do in the day. And so like listening to your body, one of the biggest things I noticed when I started to experience burnout is I isolate myself from everybody. And I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go. And that's when I noticed like, Okay, I need to take a step back, reevaluate, like what am I doing? If I noticed that like, my everyday, mental health, like coping things like my journaling, I stopped doing. If I noticed, like, I stopped working out or, yeah, I stopped, like reaching out to my family and my friends, then that those are like, my big telltale signs, like, Okay, you're like, on the precipice of a big burnout, you know, meltdown happening. So, I think it's just being able to recognize in your body, like, what is it that you notice your every day, things are starting to lack? And how do you start to get back into that routine, so that you don't get to that point of like, burning out?
Pualena 06:26
Hmm, interesting. I wonder what mine would be. When I think about that. There's this like, overwhelming feeling of guilt, like, if I know I'm going to start to become overwhelmed. And I hear you, I should be resting and practicing self-care and journaling and making sure I'm getting my workouts in and just having like, quiet, empty space. And yet, in that space, I sit there and I'm like, Oh, my God, I could be doing this. I could be, I should be doing that. Bla bla bla bla. How do you? How would I even start to alleviate those feelings of guilt? And like, I'm just not doing enough?
Cassie 07:06
Yeah. I mean, that's a big one, I think for all of us, right? It's like feeling guilty. And I think like, you and I are very similar in the sense that we like to spread ourselves very thin and say yes to everybody. Right? It's just like, in our personality, it's just like, okay, sure, I'm gonna do it. Because I love you, I want to show that I care. And so I'm gonna say yes to all of these different things. But something I like to do, or something I've started to do is actually build out in my schedule is like, that quiet time that break time. And even if it's only like, 15 minutes, where throughout the day, you're having a time to just like not even scroll, not even think about like, okay, during this 15 minutes, I'm gonna write down my other to-do lists. And it's literally just like, time for yourself. And so I think like, trying to build it into our schedule is one way for it to start naturally. Being able to listen to your body and know like, Okay, this is what I need to do for myself.
Pualena 08:11
I like that it almost aligns with that hustle culture, hustle kind of mentality, or that tendency that we have. If it's scheduled, I have to do it. And it's just another part of my hustling day. And then surprise, you get some you time. Yeah, the issues run deep. Holy moly. I can't help but want to also bring this up. Because you did mention journaling. And I would love, so anybody that's just listening to this, I'm holding up a journal that Cassie created. And it's phenomenal. I could talk about it forever. And I'd love to just have you walk me through it. And, you know, what was your process around creating this? And this question came up, and I almost didn't ask it, but I think I'm going to. So, spoiler alert, I'm going to give people a little like, insight. This has no dates. And there's structure but not. It's also kind of open-ended. And it really is an interesting approach to helping people who feel like they have to do something every day. So, like you said, block out time in your calendar, like make sure you’re journaling and I was like, Oh, if the journaling becomes a thing that I have to do, am I still going to enjoy it? And I had all those thoughts. So, anyway, that was like not a real question. I just gave you a bunch of random things that came out of my mouth. So, let's talk about the journal.
Cassie 09:47
Yeah. Which I think is very much my thinking when I started to even cultivate okay, what was it that I wanted in a journal in my like, most ideal, perfect one? And what I realized is the same thing is like, when I was going to therapy, or I still go to therapy, but when like my therapist was like, okay, like Yeah, journal, and also learning about it in school, I was like, journaling, like, every single journal has like January 1st, 2020, for January second. And I'm like, I don't want to do this, or it's like, it has certain prompts. And it's like, every single day, you have to write your day, which I'm not saying those aren't good journals at all. Because if that works for you, then great, but for me, it felt like another thing like, Okay, I have to do this. If I don't, then I must be bad, quote-unquote bad or I must be, you know, off track. And also, it just felt like you said, another thing that I just needed to check off the box instead of doing it for something for me. And then, on the flip side of that, right, like, having something so structured on the other end, is having something where it's so open-ended. And I was like, wow, this is pretty daunting. Like, you tell me to journal and I just buy a notebook. And there's just open space, like, what the heck am I supposed to even write about? And so I actually was like, Okay, I need a little bit of both, I don't like to have it, where there's any dates in it. So, that's why I was like, I need it to be an open-date concept. And also the structure where it's like your top three, and that is very open to your own interpretation. So, my interpretation of my top three is like, I journal at the end of the night. So, it's like, what are the top three things that I am proud of myself that I have accomplished? Other people might take it as a clear whatever the top three things that I want to focus on the day or the top three people that have impacted me today. Right? So, it's very open to like, Okay, what is it that you want your focus of the day, for me, I like to use like, little affirmation cards as well. So, just bringing in a different tool for me to like, focus on this, like, quote that I use. And then also, there's like, gratitude in there. And also like, your little affirmations, which I always found, gratitude practices, something that really helps. Just to, naturally as people, we're very negative, and we like to look at like, Okay, how is everything going wrong? And I think starting your journal practice and looking at, okay, what are the things that actually went right for me today, can help to start to change how you even look at your day-to-day life.
Pualena 12:46
I love it, I actually didn't realize, like, my three could be anything other than what I used it for. Which, like, I was the kind of person, I journal in the morning, sometimes, but not always. And I love that that's okay. And it was like, what are the top three things I'm going to? Essentially it was like my checklist, like, what are the three things I'm going to do today, and that was big for me because I typically will have a checklist of like, 10 to 20 things in one day. And then I get very overwhelmed. And then I have this overwhelming feeling of failure at the end of the day because it's not possible to check all of those off. And when I was able, or almost, I'm gonna say forced, forced myself to just identify three, like, the rest. If they're done tomorrow, then I'm still winning. And that was a big shift for me. But I also love the idea of alternating between all the things you said, maybe it's three people today, maybe it's three, you know, things that I accomplished that I'm proud of on Friday, or, you know, whatever that looks like. So, that's awesome. You also have two questions or prompts that they've been monumental in shifting the way that I live my life and craft my business. And it's what energized me and what drained me. And being able to identify those on a day-to-day basis, not day-to-day. But you know, as often as I'm able and excited to do this. It helps me to identify things that I want to do more of and that I must let go of. And those two things. And the awareness around those has like really changed a lot for me. So, thanks.
Cassie 14:28
So, I'm glad. I'm glad that you have been utilizing it. And it's helped you. And yeah, and I think I don't know if I also mentioned but there's also open space in it. So, it's not only prompts, there's space where it's open, and I also strategically did it where it was dotted on the line or on the pages instead of lined just because I also realized that not everybody is the type of person who likes to write and so maybe if you're a journaling practice is a drawing or coloring or something where it doesn't have to feel like it's so formatted and you need to fit into this box. That's kind of why I did it dotted.
Pualena 15:13
You're so epic like you are so thoughtful about all of this. And it's funny because I do draw in here, but I didn't realize that I'm probably drawing because there are dots instead of lines. It just, it felt like that day. Or sometimes it'll be like little doodles and a quote, or like, it's so open to whatever helps you that day. And that's what I'm realizing, too is like, I can use this in so many different ways, depending on what I need in that moment. And that's kind of how we should be treating ourselves. Right, like, whatever you need in that moment is okay. And to just honor that. So, thank you. You're amazing. The journal is amazing. How do people get it?
Cassie 15:57
Thank you. It's on Amazon. And I think if you actually, Google my, or Amazon search, my name, my full name, my real name, then it's better. So, Cassandra Costillo, and then it'll pop up as the journal. And then I don't know, you can probably put it in the show notes or something else. I’ll send you the link to it and stuff.
Pualena 16:20
Awesome. Yeah, I definitely will put them in the show notes. Highly recommended if journaling has been a thing that you want to do but you feel like you're the kind of person that can't break the chain. And when you do, you have to throw the whole journal away. And it has two entries in it. I’ve done that so many times. I actually just have them and I'll throw them away. They're just here empty.
Cassie 16:43
Me too. And I literally, I think it actually helped me expand my journaling practice the way that I've started this journaling, because now I have multiple journals for other things like, Okay, what is my business journal going to be? Or what are my journals on the books that I've been reading and stuff? And so helping me expand in that way. But you're right, like, before that, I would start it and if it would feel like, oh, okay, well, I didn't do it for a week, then I'd be like, well, guess I gotta toss it. Guess I gotta start all over.
Pualena 17:16
Yeah, I love it. Something that I realized, you said it helped you expand your journaling. And even just this practice of quiet reflection, weaving that into your day. This allows you to kind of start small. Because you don't even have to fill up the whole page at the same time. And I've noticed that you know, the first time I sat down the first time and I was like, all in, I had my drinks, I had my like, my space, and I did the whole four pages and was like, that was great. I'm going to do that again tomorrow. And then I did half a page the next day. And I realized that even that was beneficial. And then I may have skipped the prompts the next day and just done like a free journal on the empty page. And allowing yourself the space to do that, in small chunks, imperfectly, actually helped to build the habit a lot stronger than forcing yourself to complete something like that every single day.
Cassie18:21
Yeah, like, I get that, you’re right. Because I think that's very, like you said, like, this is how we should be treating our overall life, right? And like, showing up for yourself messy, showing up for yourself even when you don't want to, showing up for yourself, like, even when you only can give 10%, I think that is the idea behind everything, right? It's like just showing up even when you feel like you don't want to. I mean, and in all honesty and all transparency, I was like, just came back from a trip. Do I really want to do this, do I really want to see my clients? And I was like, no, like, just show up, you'll feel better doing it after you do it. And I'm glad I did. Like, I'm glad that I didn't reschedule also, I'm glad that it was just like, Okay, you need to this is a commitment that you set for yourself also, right? And like, that is something that I'm learning is the more that you start committing to what you're saying or the actions that you want to put out, you start to feel better, too.
Pualena 19:27
Let's talk about that. Because I think there's different schools of thought, or I guess we go about life differently depending on how we view obligations, and if it's like, right? I need to do this because I probably should. Versus I know that this is something that lights me up and in the moment I'm not feeling myself or I'm tired. I'm curious like so when we think about burnout as a whole. Sometimes we are living in this like, default state of like, I should be doing this, I should be doing that. I don't want to let people down. I don't want people to look at me like I'm a failure. And so there's that school of thought where it's like, hold on, it's okay to breathe and rest, it's okay to reschedule, it's okay to cancel, it's okay to take care of yourself first. And it sounds like there's a way to differentiate between the things that we feel obligated to do, that we can release without guilt, versus the things that we've committed to because they're exciting for us, they're fun, they light us up, and there may just be some resistance, how do we assess that difference? And move forward with creating that sort of better quality of life for ourselves?
Cassie 20:48
Yeah, that's a really good question. Something I'm still trying to navigate. But I think one of the big things that has helped me decide like, Okay, is it true? Like, is it resistance? Or is it just something that I'm not passionate about? Right? Well, first is like, is it something that you're passionate about? And if you're doing things, and I know, some of us, we have to do things, because we have to, but if it's at the end of the day, like, if it's not something that you're passionate about, that lights you up, then it's like, okay, why are you giving any more energy than you need to? Because you really don't, right? And it's like, a lot of us, we do feel like, we have that obligation of like, we have to do this, we need to show up for this, or we need to go to this thing, when in actuality, it's like, no, we don't. And I think that's the biggest thing, too, is like realizing, you have complete control over yourself. And making those decisions, right of like, okay, I'm going to do this for myself because I want to, versus I'm going to do it because I feel like I have to. And I noticed like, even myself when I would do those, okay, I'm going to do this because I feel like I have to I would end up just resenting whatever I was doing or just being like, why am I here? Right? Like, why did I do this? Why did I say I was going to show up? But I think another part of that, right is like, I'm reading this book. It's The Big Leap. I don't know if you've ever read that. So, that's another thing. So like, for my example, like waking up being like, Okay, should I reschedule? Or should I not? It was me thinking like, is this my upper limit? Like, problem right now? Right, like, knowing that having this conversation with you was one, something that that I know, I was gonna be passionate about, but also that was going to just help me like, connection wise, us connect in a different way than we normally do. I was like, okay, me trying to make up excuses, even though Yeah, I did just come back from a trip or whatever, was just a way of like, my thinking, my limits, jumping in and being like, No, you can't, no, you shouldn't. And trying to distinguish that too, right? Like, is that self-talk that you're having, is it because you're fearful of like, what the next opportunity is going to be? Or is it just like, you know, listening, okay. Is it the fear? Or is it just because you need that push? Like, you need to do that extra thing? And so, this morning, it was me distinguishing, like, no, it's just a little bit of fear. It's just a little bit of like, even though like, Yeah, I know, Pua, I know that this conversation is gonna be fine. It's still a little bit like, well, this is my first like, interview podcast like, I’m nervous. And so like, that was a little bit of that.
Pualena 23:53
Oh, that's so that is actually really eye-opening for me, because, and I wanted to get into this more like, how did you recognize that? Because I find myself often sitting in either hoping that things get rescheduled or rescheduling them myself. Actually, I really try not to cancel or reschedule unless I absolutely have to. Just because I don’t know, I just like to show up for people. But at the same time, like, there have been moments where I'm like, I just can't, I have a marathon of calls today and by, you know, 4 pm I just can't do this last one. Or, you know, and usually, people are kind of like, oh, it works out better for me too. But I realize, as you're talking I'm like, oh my god, this is me. And it often shows up during like right before a consultation like a new client consultation. Where I'm like, Oh, I just hope they cancel. I hope they don't show up. And like sometimes they don't show up and I usually feel a little bit relieved. And I don't actually think it's because I don't want to do the call. I think it's because I'm afraid that I won't be able to support them or serve them. Right? Oh my god. That's crazy. I never thought about that.
Cassie 25:09
Yeah, and I think that's a little bit of like our imposter syndrome because I feel the same way, right? Like, I have a new client. And you know, whenever I see those calls, I'm like, Oh, I kind of wish that they just don't show or I'm on the call and like, in therapy, at least, you have to wait 15 minutes before you can, like, get off and like, call it a no show. But sometimes I like the three-minute mark. I'm like, okay, they're not showing up and then they show up. Right? And yeah, and I think it's the same. It's not because I don't want to, it's not because I feel like I'm not in the field that I'm supposed to be in. But I do think it's you’re right, it's like feeling okay, am I going to be the right fit for them? And I think it's also letting ourselves, you know, when that talk comes in, allowing ourselves to be okay, if we're not the right fit for them, either. Right? And which is hard, because it's like, Well, what did I do? What is wrong with me? Or why am I not the right coach for you, or the right therapist, right, but I think it's just understanding that you're not going to be everybody's pick of the letter, and that's okay. And that also allows it to be a little less scary when you walk in knowing like, okay, it's gonna work out. And if it doesn't, then that's okay. That just doesn't mean that we're meant to be in that the same energy, the same wavelength.
Pualena 26:36
Yeah, that's huge. It's really refreshing also, to speak to somebody who I feel like, if you're a specialist, or if you specialize in any particular field, people assume that you're perfect in that way. So like, as somebody who provides these types of services, to me, to hear you say that you also struggle with this, and it's something that you experience, I'm like, wow, she's human. And perhaps like we don't always know, it's a lot easier, I guess what I'm trying to say is like viewing other people's, even for me, like seeing other people's digital space or website, like I can sort of pinpoint opportunities for growth or adjustments. And it's really hard for us to see it for ourselves. And I'm curious what your thoughts are around, like, even you experienced these challenges where like, you hit those upper limits, or you have these thoughts or experiences, and you really have to focus on creating awareness for yourself. And you also go to therapy. And so having that external support, like what are your thoughts around people, sort of self-diagnosing, trying to figure it out themselves, trying to like, listen to all the guidance and do all the journaling? And like, I'm good, I got it, I'm gonna read the books, I'm gonna listen to the podcasts versus seeking external support and getting accountability. And that, you know, where's the balance? And what are your thoughts around that?
Cassie 28:15
Yeah, and I think, same, I was the same, which is funny because like, as a therapist, they all say, like, the best therapists are the ones that see a therapist, not saying I'm the best therapist, but I would say that actually seeking help has helped me uncover things that I didn't realize I was doing. Also, you know, just having somebody else aside from a friend or family member to talk to and to discuss things that are happening. So, I think it's a little bit of both, right? Like, you can do a lot of this stuff on your own. It's true, right? Like, you can start your own practices, you can start, you know, your own meditations, or whatever. But I think the importance of having a coach or a therapist, somebody who is a third party, not even anything in your life, it helps you to see the same thing that probably your friends in your family are telling you in a different way. Because my therapist tells me things that my friends and my family told me and I'm like, Yeah, I've heard that before. But for some reason, and I don't know the psychology behind it, but hearing it from somebody else, somebody else's voice. It just clicks for you, right and understanding like, oh, okay, this is what I'm doing. These are the things, how I'm showing up, and how I can start changing it. But when you hear it from your friend or your family, you immediately get defensive, and it's like, Why are you pointing that out? Or why are you saying it that way? And so I think it's just helpful, you know, the combination of both. Yeah, you can do your own practices. But again, like seeing somebody getting that professional help to uncover things that you may have been hearing for years and years, but that will just start to click for you, and just start your path and your path of healing a lot better.
Pualena 30:26
I love that. It reminded me of something someone told me. And I had also Okay, whoa, I do this. I have like four questions in my head at the same time, and then I don't know how to ask them properly in a way that makes sense. And so then I say nothing. Okay, question one. Or just statement one, somebody once told me a great coach is someone who asks great questions. It was something like that. Which then, like, skipped my brain over to the idea of like, I'm not sure I understand the difference between a therapist and a coach.
Cassie 31:08
Yeah. That's a good question. Because I think a lot of people don't, right? So, a therapist, I like to look at it, okay. Therapist is, if you are wanting to seek help, seek treatment in a way for something that is like clearly diagnoseable, the easiest example is like ADHD, right? So, like, say, you feel like you have ADHD, where you can't sit still, your mind's going a mile a minute, again, and these are just very generalized. So, for people listening or watching, like just very generalized statements, it doesn't mean that it's going to fit every single person. But if that is something that you want to work on, right, then therapy would probably be a better avenue. However, that person with ADHD could still see a coach. But maybe it's about something very specific, very niche down. So, I want to learn how to utilize my time more effectively. That might be like something that a coach does, doesn't step into the ADHD realm at all doesn't step into, like talking about the diagnosis, but it's very about, okay, like, how are we working on your time management, and that's all we're going to talk about. If it starts to get into anything therapeutic, then a coach should be like, Okay, that's something for your therapist to talk about. And some people see both, some people see a therapist and see a coach. And I just want to clear this up. Like, even though I'm doing the two hats. I never see the same client as a therapist and a coach. So, that is something to think about, like, you can see both, you can see a coach for your business, but you could see a therapist because you're having some interpersonal issues. And so just being able to distinguish, like, okay, is my problem, or my barrier, my challenge, something that I want to talk to a therapist about? Or is it something that I really want to focus on and niche down within a coaching setting?
Pualena 33:15
Interesting, for coaches that are listening and they're like, oh, my gosh, I think I might be blurring the lines. What can they sort of be aware of, so that they can really keep that relationship in the appropriate place and guide their clients perhaps who don't know, and they start, because they know, like, even my business coach, we end up talking about personal things, because your personal life affects your business. And even I can see like, was I asking things of her that really should have been asked of a therapist or you what does that look like for a coach to be able to say, like, you know, we're starting to get into therapist territory. And I recommend you see yours or, you know, go seek one out. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Cassie 34:06
Yeah. So, I think if you're a coach, if you're listening as a coach, and one, it's like, feeling uncomfortable. So, if a question is being asked, or topics start to arise that make you as a coach feel uncomfortable, make you as a coach feel like, Oh, this isn't really what I am comfortable talking about, or what I am necessarily versed in, then perhaps it's something to just be like, Well, maybe you should seek a therapist about that. Or, you know, it's great that you brought this to the conversation, but that's not something that I'm here to talk about. You know, and so just being able to be very clear about that for yourself as a coach like understanding like, what is it specifically that your coaching businesses around. And you're right, like, a lot of coaches, it's going to end in therapy, too, there's going to be a lot of things that come up that aren't specific about why you came to them. But again, it's understanding like, Okay, this is something that's brought up every single time, right? Like, you know, every single time I see my client, and they're telling me as a coach, oh, you know, it was really hard for me to get out of bed, I just don't feel like waking up or something, then it's like, okay, perhaps that's territory for you to start seeing a therapist. Right? I think understanding that therapists are, do have this certain credentials, certain licensing to make sure that if that starts to, they hear that then they have the right resources, not saying that coaches don't, but sometimes it can be very, as a coach, I think feel like, oh, I have to take on all of this. And it's like, no, like, I think that the great thing about all of these services, mental health services, is that there's so much around that you can do and so being able to be like, Okay, I'm gonna, like, give you this person and you know, I'm gonna refer you to this, you know, certain organization or whatever, and knowing that you don't have to be alone in it. And you know, it's this one client isn't your burden.
Pualena 36:16
That's awesome. It reminds me of a quote. It's not a very crazy quote, why can I think of it? It takes a village to raise a child, something like that. And like, why can't it also take a village to keep us whole?
Cassie 36:32
Right. Honestly, though, like, I think that's what the shift of any type of well-being should be. Right? Is that understanding like, you don't mean only need to see one specialist in order for you to feel good or feel like you're best, you have to see all these different people. And you have to understand that like, that is just going to what makes you whole? Well, it makes you full.
Pualena 37:00
Yeah. Which I think is the beautiful part of the business that you offer is when I think about that I'm like, okay, so that means I have to pay for a coach, a therapist, a fitness trainer, right? Like, I'd love to, but that may not be, you know, in the cards for my bank account. However, you are putting together a beautiful service where you're actually bringing in experts from all of these different arenas to support people through your business. That's awesome. Does that exist yet? Can people learn more?
Cassie 37:42
Yeah, it's on the precipice. So, it's, yes, I'm hoping to have something by of this, like, all these different, you know, practitioners coming in, so like a weekend retreat. That is what I'm hoping for, by the summer. For it to happen. I am starting a group coaching. Yeah, a group coaching service, I guess, that is starting in February. So, like very soon, which is this weekend. It is pre-recorded lessons, but you also get the chance to be in a community, have questions getting asked within that space, I'll be in that space as well. And then there's also one-on-one coaching within those eight weeks as well. So, you can get a little taste of like, what coaching would even be like with me, but it just was the idea of being able to bring like-minded women together to be able to share in this space and understand that burnout isn't something that needs to be the norm.
Pualena 38:58
That's epic. Is that online? Can people join it from anywhere? Is it just for people in Hawaii?
Cassie 39:05
So, because it's my coaching part of my business, then yeah, you can be anywhere, you can join it. I will give you the details on how they can like send their information so that they can join but yeah, it is available for anybody around the world. And I think it'd just be a cool space for everybody to be able to share in their challenges and also their wins.
Pualena 39:35
I love that that's my favorite model is group coaching community and one-on-one support, all in one. A lot of people, especially coaches and especially people who serve one-on-one clients exclusively, are very hesitant to go into the group coaching space because it feels like you're giving less of yourself and you are therefore giving a lower quality of service. And I think it's the complete opposite. I think with the community aspect, you are doubling the support. And like humans are community beings, and to have that support, not just for, like, selfishly, for you to go in and be like all these people support me. But to learn from other people, you learn a lot from supporting someone else and hearing their story, and seeing how you support others in the community. I just think it's the depth and the additional layers. And that structure provides, I think, a higher quality experience, one-on-ones great too, very powerful. And it sounds like you're combining them both. And it's just, that's incredible. And I'm super excited for you. It's amazing.
Cassie 40:51
Thank you. Yeah, I know, that was the idea, just, you know, a lot of the times we can be in our own head and feel like we're all alone. And so being able to, I like the community aspect, too, is to know that, okay, I'm not the only one that's feeling this way. And there's 10 other people that are feeling exactly how I'm feeling.
Pualena 41:13
Definitely and I would say too, the thing that I've seen in communities, and from a consumer or client perspective, that there can also be resistance there, because people are like, especially for something like this. Therapy, life coaching, and even business coaching. I have a client who created a community around a group coaching program around processing grief after pet loss, very niche. It's a beautiful offering. And I can see why people are like, this is very personal, like, I don't necessarily want to do this in a group. And what I've seen time and time again, from myself as well is like I'm very introverted. And so people who are resistant to groups and communities often come in and sort of just, they're in observer mode, they're not super participatory. They're not like, you know, actively commenting or supporting people or participating in live calls. And two things happen. One, you still learn, you still get that boost, that experience, the knowledge, just listening, you absorb. But I also often noticed this in myself and others, that over time, you do start to participate more, and it becomes a very beautiful, safe space, and possibly the only safe space in your life, where you feel comfortable sharing in that way. So yeah, awesome. I love it.
Cassie 42:49
Thank you.
Pualena 42:49
Yes. Do you have a website? Do you have social links, anyway that people can learn more about you?
Cassie 42:58
Yes, my Instagram is @wholebycass. I do have a website, wholehawaiillc.com. I'll send it all to you. And you can share that. And I do have a podcast. It's W.H.O.L.E the Podcast. So, I share all things mental health on there. And just a little other avenue where you can listen in on things that not only you're probably dealing with, but that I'm dealing with as well.
Pualena 43:34
Your podcast is so awesome for those reasons, right? Like you share a lot of like, just practical strategies and tips and you're very vulnerable sharing your own personal journey. And your voice is just so lovely to listen to like, it relaxes me so much is that weird to say? I don't know, take it or leave it. And even like your energy here, I feel like I'm like, K, dial it back put like match the energy in the room. Because you're just so, you feel so grounded. And I think, especially when we're in this space where we're seeking a little bit of support, that groundedness goes a long way. So, thank you for being who you are and showing up in all of these spaces. I have to say, so Cassie and I dance hula together. We have traveled the world together. And you're, it's so cool to see you in the space. And I think we all kind of show up differently depending on the spaces that we're in and the people we're around. And I really admire what you do and the way that you do it. And the uniqueness at which you approach all of these things that you do because I think it's very easy to look around and say okay, well, I'm in the same industry as this person and this is how they do it. So, I'm just going to do it that way. You do it Cassie way. And I love that about you. So, thank you.
Cassie 45:04
Thank you. Thank you. That's very nice of you to say.
Pualena 45:11
Of course, I mean, you made a journal. Like, I feel like any business owner that has something tangible. It's like, what you built is real and I can touch it and hold it and give it to people and sell it. And it's, I don't know, I'm just so proud of you.
Cassie 45:28
Thank you. Thank you for having me on.
Pualena 45:32
Thank you for being on. I have a feeling we're going to do this again.
Cassie 45:36
I hope so. It was fun.
Pualena 45:40
Amazing. Well, thank you again, I will put all of your links and everything in the show notes. And yeah, you're amazing.
Cassie 45:47
Thank you. You're amazing.
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Join Pua Pakele and Kari Lotzien on a journey to explore the challenges of work-life balance for business owners. The episode covers Kari's journey from a business owner to a leadership coach. Pua and Kari discuss imposter syndrome, strategic planning, and the three stages of business growth. Kari's approach helps entrepreneurs navigate challenges while maintaining passion and purpose. The conversation also delves into fostering authentic connections in both personal and business relationships.
The discussion further explores the importance of finding the right space for seeking support, particularly for small business owners facing unique challenges. Kari shares illuminating perspectives from her group coaching program, underscoring the significance of celebrating wins and fostering a sense of community. As Kari encourages small business owners to connect and share experiences, the conversation provides valuable insights into navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship.
Listeners are invited to reflect on the connections between their personal and professional goals to help gain a deeper understanding of what contributes to a successful and fulfilling entrepreneurial journey.
About Kari Lotzien
Kari, a visionary entrepreneur, is dedicated to supporting like-minded visionaries in achieving sustained success in both business and life. Her passion lies in businesses that prioritize service and community, believing in their potential to positively impact the world. Undeterred by skepticism, Kari encourages others to embrace ambitious visions for their businesses, drawing from her own experience of incorporating "making the world a better place" into her vision statement.
Visionary entrepreneurs, according to Kari, transcend industry boundaries, with her clients ranging from therapy clinics to insurance brokerages. For these entrepreneurs, business is about more than just turning a profit; it's about providing services that improve lives. Kari emphasizes the broader purpose that fuels visionary entrepreneurship, challenging the notion that it's limited to specific sectors and fostering a community of individuals committed to positive change.
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Kari Lotzien | Be the Anchor:
Website: BeTheAnchor.caFacebook: BeTheAnchorLtdInstagram: BeTheAnchor.caLinkedin: Be-The-Anchor-LtdApple Podcast: Be The AnchorTranscript:
Kari 00:00
Impostor syndrome is not related to the status that you've achieved. There is a cell memory where we feel like we are not enough and whether you have achieved that insane level of success if you have it, you have it. And I think the way to overcome it, I think. the jury's still out on it. But I get emotional about it. I feel like there's a gateway that opens when we see it and others.
Pua 00:27
Boom, here we are, Kari. Yes, this is lovely. We've had I was just saying, like, I wish I had recorded the last three minutes because this is just we're talking about that, that dark corner in our brains where only the tax monster lives, and how we don't want to go there more often than we need to.
Kari 00:48
Right? We have to go in there and find receipts.
Pua 00:50
Yeah, that's where they are like, I can't find my receipt, I know exactly where it is. And I don't want to go find it. Let it die there. Amazing. You said something about a minute and a half ago that I can't get out of my head, and I don't ever want to get out of my head. And it is your number one highest value in business and life. Tell me about that.
Kari 01:14
My number one value right now is freedom and flexibility. And I'll be honest, it was not easy to get there. Because in my past, I owned a brick-and-mortar location for 22 years, and I was very attached to it. And when I started thinking about what I wanted next, and what I wanted life to look like next, and I wanted to be travelling more and seeing the world and being able to pick up and go support my family because they live far away. And I thought I want to do this by designing my business around the life that I want. Hence my tagline. Right, create the life you crave.
Pua 01:55
Beautiful, yeah. And that is often sort of a double-edged sword, right? Because we become business owners for that very reason. We want to have freedom, we want to have total control. That's the C word. Control over our schedule control over everything that we do so that we can have freedom. And yet more often than not entrepreneurs work longer hours harder, they're more stressed out. They're more financially unstable than anybody that I've ever met. Not to say it's not worth it. What are your thoughts around that and how we can navigate that space that would sometimes we find ourselves in?
Kari 02:37
It almost makes me emotional to hear you say that, because I think I was that business owner, I started my first company when I was in my 20s. And I left the security, right, I was working for the government, I had a very predictable job. And it just wasn't aligned, I thought no, I need to have more control of my time. And I want to do the things that I really believe in. So I left the cushy, you know, benefits and all the good things. And I started on my own. And I think at the time, what nobody tells you as an initial business owner is that you don't have someone else telling you what to do. But you can be your own worst enemy. And it happens so quickly that I kind of laughed like I think I talked about with my clients that businesses kind of go through three stages. So, there's the infant stage of business. And it's like caring for an infant like it wakes you up in the middle of the night, it affects your ability to eat and sleep and look after yourself like and you need to have that like you have to have that grit to lean into it so that it survives. And it sucks all of your time. But then it gets to a place where it's like it's at the child phase where you want it to start being independent. But you kind of go oh my gosh, I've created a monster because this business is so dependent on me for every little thing, and I've taken on every role. And I'm probably if I made it past the infant phase, I'm probably pretty good at a lot of things are good enough that it actually turned into a sustainable business. But now I'm my own worst enemy because I can't keep going like this. I'm tired. I don't want to, but I don't necessarily know how to get out of it. Like I've just created my own cave. And I think that's where, you know, I just got passionate about why isn't anybody talking about that part? Right? We kind of skipped over, we go Oh, I was this? You know, living on my parent's couch and things were hard and I was strapped for cash all the time. And then poof, now I'm making multiple seven figures. And I think no, that's not quite the way to happen. Right. I think we just need more support in how do you move past that to just start to let go, and start to build your team, and start to get some support. So, that you do get back to that, what you really wanted when you started the whole thing?
Pua 05:05
Oh my gosh, I can only imagine everybody listening right now is saying, who is this woman? What does she do? Where do I find her? Help me? Because you're right. It’s almost like, what's the word? Like? It's it's not an addiction, but it's like, Huh, look what I can do, what else can I do and you build this huge machine out of the skills that you didn't realize you had. And it's beautiful like entrepreneurs are my favorite breed of human. And at the same time that personality trait can quickly become totally just like a monster like, it eats you alive. So, tell us, what do you do? What's your business? How do you serve people? I usually save it for the end, but how can they find you, if they're like, tell me no more, I just need to speak to Kari right now.
Kari 05:56
So, I evolved, I had a brick-and-mortar practice. I was the owner of a private rehabilitation company for 22 years and then I sold it. And I started really thinking about business coaching, leadership coaching because I really do believe that you can't have a successful business past a certain point, unless you're a great leader, until you can, really, and not just being a great delegator, telling other people what to do, but really developing, sharing your passion and getting other people excited about why you do what you do and the thing that you serve. And it was nagging at me. But wonder if this is a thing. So, I started about four years ago, just supporting other service-based entrepreneurs to grow past the, I call it the teenager phase of business, right? When you're starting to think like, Oh, I'd like to get my time back. I like to be able to travel a little bit, I'd like to be able to not do all the jobs in my business, but maybe select the ones that I really like, and I'm really good at. And I think the difference too, is that a lot of my clients are service-based. So, they love the frontline. So, I work with a lot of health and wellness, businesses, chiropractors, massage therapists, psychologists, as well as like the financial industry, financial planners. And the truth is, the business coaching that's out there, says, Oh, you need to hire people to do the front line. And then you're going to be the owner, and you're going to oversee the business, but a lot of my clients they are the main revenue stream in their business. So, it doesn't work. So, the traditional kind of coaching just wasn't lining up. And then the advice they were getting of, well, you just have to do the work and you have to push through it. And you have to kind of give up the good parts of life, the traveling the family, the friends and I just thought no, no, I don't think you have to do it like that. So, now that's what I do. I teach service-based business owners, the logistics, like the how-to, of being aware of kind of the things that we do that stand in our own way, like you said, I mean, you talked about it. And you said it kind of hesitantly like an addiction. But it really is. And I think that when we're and I mean, let's be honest, we're getting that dopamine hit, when things are successful. And when it actually works. And you face that challenge and something was hard. And then you're like, oh my gosh, it worked. That is how addiction forms. And I think that what happens over time is we keep doing that. And it works, and we're good at it. But then there becomes a day where you think, Hey, wait, I'm not sure if this is where I really wanted to be. And I think that's the place where, with my clients, I lean in and say okay, like, where are we getting in our own way? And why? What do we really want? Because I think a lot of us have never, we don't want to open that up, especially if you've had a successful business. You don't want to say, but I don't want this anymore. Or I want something different. Like there's a sense of almost guilt that, well, why shouldn't I want this, this was what I've worked so hard for. And for a lot of my clients, I'm kind of the first person in a long time that they've said, You know what I really want, you know what I really crave. And they let it out and I just hold that so preciously. And then we start developing strategic plans around not only your business but around your life so that the two fit together so that when we're done working together, your life looks more like you want it to look.
Pua 09:42
Wow. I've never heard anybody describe it that way. And what came to mind is this kind of dangerous cycle where we, as you said, like we just kind of push and we work hard and we stay up late and we wake up early, to create something that will bring us to an outcome, which is usually a sale. And that sale is the reward that actually triggers our internal reward systems that says your hard work paid off, do it again. But that cycle can be very detrimental to our health. And so figuring out like, just because it worked one way doesn't mean it can't work another way. And yet without the awareness of that, like, in like the battle that we're playing against our quality of life, and what actually makes us happy, what we actually value, what we're trying to achieve by having a business versus the sale that was accomplished by this, like, dangerous cycle, I think without the awareness, we just keep doing it. Because you're right, like, we can't give up now, we can't show the people that we were so proud to start this business, and all of a sudden, we're giving up on it, like, what are they going to think? You know, I think there's a lot of that, too. So, thank you for bringing that awareness to people. I think it's really important and not talked about enough.
Kari 11:06
You know, and I don't want to totally own that idea. I need to give credit where it's due because it was actually my husband, whom we've just celebrated 25 years of marriage, it was his grandfather, actually, who introduced the concept. He used to always call me an anchor. And I thought he was insulting me. I thought he was saying like, you're like the ball and chain. And we've gone through hard times, right, which you do when you're a business owner and a mom of young kids and everything is just going so fast. And I was sitting down having coffee with him. And I said, you know, I just it's just all so much. And he goes yeah, but you know, hon, like, you know how to– I know be an anchor? And he says no, no, don't say it like that. And he said, When the seas of life get stormy, and they always will. He said it's not your job to Captain everybody else's ship, and do all the work. He said it is not your job to try and calm the waters of the ocean. It's your job to set your own destination and just be that stability for other people. And that day, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's it. That's leadership. Right? It's not a matter of like, doing all the paddling yourself. It's not a matter of trying to make it really easy. It's just you do your part, you be that point of stability to say, okay, like, where are we going? Are we still on course? How does this all work? And that was just how I started leading. And as like, my background was Occupational Therapy. So, I did a lot of work in neurology and working with our nervous system and knowing that we make the best decisions in life and business, when we're in that place where we're regulated. And I did that type of work for years. And then it was like, this sudden light bulb came on. And I went, wow, you know if we could bring this to the business world, I wonder what would happen? And here we are.
Pua 13:05
Here we are, that's beautiful. You said something earlier, that also got me thinking that, traditionally, we are essentially told the opposite of the advice that you were given, right? Like, your responsibility is to calm the waters for yourself and your team. So, get out there. Right? And you also said that a lot of times, we're given the advice to outsource the front-facing work, outsource the meetings, outsource the communication. And you're so right that a lot of business owners actually, not only enjoy that part of it but that's often what the clients are opting into. They want to talk to the business owner, they want to talk to the expert. And, you know, so knowing that it's almost a relief, right, like, Okay, I still get to talk to my clients. Awesome. I'm so thrilled with that. However, I still have all this other stuff. And I'm sure I could outsource some of it or build a team around supporting clients in other ways. So, what guidance do you share with your clients? Or what advice do you have in terms of figuring out the right things to bring external support in for?
Kari 14:27
I think the big thing is you get to decide. You get to decide, it's your business. Like there's no should, there's no how-to, there's no this is the right way to seven figures. It's really and I think that it changes over time. Like I know, what I loved doing in the business when I was in my 20s was different when I was older. And I moved from really wanting to be frontline. And then I went through a phase where I loved mentorship. I love teaching and taking a new team member and guiding them through and sharing how I think about things and how I would reason. And then I expanded from there. And then all of a sudden I just loved selling, I loved meeting with our stakeholders and pitching how amazing my team was and what we could do. And so I think that part of it is there's not like a one-size-fits-all. And there's not a one-size-fits-all for 30 years. It's what what works for you right now, what's lighting you up? What do you love in your business that gives you energy? And then we look at what are the parts that you really don't love? Right? So actually, I mean, it sounds so simple, but I have my clients go through. And we do just task lists. What are all the tasks that you're responsible for, and we break them down by daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annually. And then I just have them go through and write them. Number one; things I love that just light me up, that gives me energy. Two; are the things that are my neutral, I can take it or leave it, it's fine. And three; I might be good at this. But it is sucking the energy out of me like I just dread the day. You and I were talking about finding receipts and doing bookkeeping. For me, that's it. And then we start there. Right, we start at the threes. And you get to decide what those are. And then we say, Okay, could we combine some of these things into a position or outsource? And then we decide, okay, is this something that you just want it off your plate, but you don't really care how it gets done? Or is this something that you, I talk about, like, you know, when you're passing over a gift to a little kid, and they don't let it go, you got to get into that struggle. I think that's the way it is with some tasks like we we kind of want to hand it over, but we kind of don't. And then we talk through those things like is that something that we maybe want to build a team member, we want to do some mentorship around, we want to make sure that when we pass that task over it has our fingerprints on it. And we talk through that. So, that's kind of the strategic approach that I work with, with all my clients, and then we just build it for them.
Pua 17:10
It's awesome. I love that you use the word mentorship and not like, I mean, training is fine too. Like training a team member feels different from like, mentorship and keeping your, you know, your sort of presence in a specific realm of your business where you feel like that's important. I'm wondering if you ever come across, I'm sure you do, as entrepreneurs, I feel like we have a little bit higher degree of control issues.
Kari 17:41
I think so.
Pua 17:42
And even the things right, like, I can think of a million things where, it's a tricky gauge because there are quality standards, there are standards of service that we hold ourselves and our businesses to. And so when we bring someone else in and allow them the opportunity to take on a role, we want to make sure that that quality is still upheld. And yet, perhaps they'll do it in a different way. Maybe it's better than our way, maybe it's just they'll innovate something right and providing the space and freedom and sort of allowing for that to happen means that we have to step back further than we'd like to. Do come across any sort of resistance to that, or what is your experience with your clients working through through those kinds of things?
Kari 18:36
Absolutely. The two words that you tied to, you said, you need space and freedom to do that. And I think that's a big thing is that we often will work ourselves to the point where we don't have a lot of capacity. And then when we go to delegate, or outsource or take those tasks off of our plate. When it's something that we're holding tight to that's hard to kind of let go of our trust, if we don't have the capacity and space to really share, okay, this is why this is really important to me. This is how I think about it. And then we need to have space so that when the person shares back to say, well, here's kind of the way I think about it. You need to have a buffer zone, that you can actually hear that and when you're at capacity, there's no ability to hear it. And I think that's the main thing is that when you're looking and I don't think we always think about it in this way. And I would say that certainly when I started my business, that's not the coaching that I got. The coaching I got was more that old school, here's what you do, here's when you do it by, here's how much I'm gonna pay you, or else. I just don't believe that that's how strong businesses operate. Even without sourcing, I think that it's more of a dance and you have to establish the relationship and that common trust. So, that even when you go through challenges, which you will. Like, there's going to be times when somebody doesn't do that thing the way that you thought they should, or when they misunderstood what you ask them for. And what comes back is something completely different. There's going, you have to expect that. But then the space allows you to go, Okay, let's have a conversation about this, I realize now that I wasn't very clear in how I communicated that. And then you have that dialogue back and forth. But I think when you're at capacity, you get into that place of fight or flight, which we don't tend to think about when it comes to being a business owner. But then we go, Oh, forget it, I'll just do it myself. Or we set someone up and we're almost angry with them that well, you know, I just need to find better people, or I just need, you know, to find someone who actually has a good work ethic like I do. To me, when I hear that it's like, no, that's probably a sign that you're not in a place where you're regulated.
Pua 21:01
Interesting. I feel like that's, that's gonna be hard for some people to hear it is because it forces us to look within and that's, we're often scared to do that. It will expose things that we're not ready to look at. So yeah, it's a good call.
Kari 21:22
And I think that's a point to that, you know, when you say, it's something we're scared to look at. I think the truth is, a lot of business owners, especially when they're small business owners, and they're in a place where they're in a position of leadership by themselves, you don't have somebody to bounce ideas off of, to have that kind of like safe place to talk things out or to figure it out. And I think that's where, like some of my group programs, it's the best part about it, because everyone's at a similar stage of business. And they can talk openly and support one another. And they're not just, you know, going to your spouse who really doesn't want to hear it anymore. Or going to the wrong person. Right? But I think it kind of gives us practice being vulnerable, because you do you armor up so often because you don't have that safe place to share.
Pua 22:08
Absolutely. Do you ever find that, because we are kind of in this world, and we are siloed, right? It's me, I have my business, I'm making all the decisions, I'm making all of the assumptions as well, like, so for us, when we're putting marketing materials together, a lot of clients will give us language, and like this works well for you because you understand this world. However, I don't know if your target audience is going to get this. And you know, so just an example of like, we're just in here all the time. And when we start to expand, maybe we're hiring a VA, maybe we're hiring a you know, somebody to take on a small chunk of the things that we do, or just to take some of what we're still going to do, but in a support role. And I've found this to be true for myself. And I've heard this with others, where you almost open up too much to that person because they're the one other person in your business, who can finally see the inside of everything and what's broken, what client is challenging, you know, and we start to kind of cross lines a little bit. They're not your business partner, they are not co-owners of this entity. And yet, sometimes we treat them that way. What are your thoughts around that? And have you seen that and experienced it?
Kari 23:30
Well, yes. I mean, I see it in myself sometimes. Right? Like, I think that number one, we're human, and they think we'd naturally have that, oh, my gosh, you get me. And we just have that sense of release. So, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Or I don't I think in most situations, I believe that we have more fear that we've over-shared than the person on the other end would feel. I think in most situations, that's the case. And for a lot of people, it's funny, even with myself, when people open up, I often will send them a message the next day, and just say, Okay, so today's the day of the vulnerability hangover, where you regret everything you said to me. And I think if you find yourself doing that with the wrong person, where you think, oh my gosh, I shared something that I shouldn't have. And now you have that feeling of, you know, the dread, the heaviness that sinks in and you think, oh my gosh, I shouldn't have done that. If that starts to become a pattern, then it's like you're probably not putting it in the right spot. And I think it's a journey because when you're in a small business, many of us have moved between being an employee so we're colleagues with the people that we were working with, and colleagues share different kinds of things, you complain about your boss, you complain about your spouse, you complain about your you know, so many different things. I think it takes a little bit to shake that off. And to recognize that actually, I'm holding a different role now. But I think give yourself some grace. And most of the time, it really doesn't have that much of a consequence. And if it does, people are probably starting to pull away from you, not answer their phones, not respond, and then you go, okay, maybe I need to kind of check in on this. But then when people do put it, I would say more often, people hold back, when they're working with a coach, or when they're in a group of people who truly do understand. And they feel they need to protect and then when they do release it. It takes a little bit, like, they'll judge themselves, and they come back to this feeling of oh, my gosh, I never should have said that. And it's not that I'm not grateful. I'm really grateful. I know that my business is doing well, but and when they're met with no judgment, and people who go no, no, I get it. Right? A lot of my clients right now, it, there's so many themes of people who are caring for parents who are going through illnesses, and they want to be there. They want to help, they want to be of support, but they feel they can't be because they have so many business commitments. And to be able to share that in a really safe space is beautiful. And then to recognize how many other people said, Oh, actually, that happened to me, too. And here's how I did it, or here's what I wish I would have done or, and just to see that support in the right space? It's a beautiful thing.
Pua 26:34
Yeah. You know, that really made me think about just the question I just asked is, are you opening up to a brand new team member or somebody who's just been hired to build you like a landing page? Like, not part of your business even? And is there perhaps another space that would not only be more appropriate, but more sort of supportive and receptive? I'm sure these people are like, Oh, my gosh, happy to listen to you. I don't know how much I can help you, but let it out. But at the same time, is that the best space for you to get the support that you need? And is that a sign that you're looking for a different type of support? And I love that you do group coaching, I love that you have a group program because I think community, especially for entrepreneurs of small teams or solo entrepreneurs is so underrated and can just elevate you, as a person, elevate your overall well-being, your mental health and your business as a result. So, that's awesome.
Kari 27:40
Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of the trading, if you look at leadership podcasts, if you look at leadership training, it's amazing how many of them are directed towards corporate, where they have full teams of human resources people. And I think what about that person who has a team of four, who's trying to do it all themselves? And I think you're right, when I looked, I saw a major gap in the market. And now that it's going and I see the magic that happens in that group coaching program, and I'm really selective too. In our group coaching program, you have to have been in business for a minimum of a year, like your business can't be at that infant stage where it's taking all of you. And you have to be willing to be coachable, to open up and to go through the modules, and to really reflect on the business. And when I was able to curate that, and put this group together, who are from a variety of industries, so I have people from financial planning to virtual assistants to dance studios, and, you know, a really wide array, but when they come together, they're all facing similar challenges. Yeah, it's pretty amazing, actually.
Pua 28:50
That’s awesome. Yeah, it's, it's a sign too that like, just as we're all human, right, we go through like, our own physiological human experience. As a subset of that we as entrepreneurs, regardless of our industry, or our business. The size of the business, I think matters a little bit just depending on the type of community that you're joining. But it's so helpful to talk to people who get it from an energetic standpoint, right? Like you understand the hustle, you understand what it took to get there. Your path may have looked different than mine, but you still worked hard. And you still put in the same type of effort. And to be able to see that but from somebody who's not so close to it, that they can't see the holes, they can't see, both the holes and like the things that you really should be celebrating that you're not like, oh my god, do you realize what you just said, you just did this? And you're like, oh, but it was this and that and not perfect. And I didn't do this and you're like, Hold on. Let's just celebrate this thing that you just did. When you're just brushing over it and you're just gonna move on with your life right?
Kari 29:56
You know, and it's funny like you talk about opening up to the person who created your landing page and I think what, what we see in that sometimes is, Oh, here's another business owner, I can connect with them. Right? So, I think sometimes we search for that commonality, or we search for that common denominator to say, here's how we're like. And when I've seen, you know that in the group, and you talk tied to that celebration, we are so humble that we often don't kind of sing our own praises. This is one of my favorite things about the group is every week we talk about, okay, what were your wins, and people will kind of stumble over them. And then inevitably, somebody in the group will go, whoa, whoa, whoa, you what? And they give it praise. And I see this in, you know, it happened earlier in the group where we had a couple of members that felt like, oh, you know, I'm not a decade into my business. I'm not at the multi-seven figures yet. And they had to just trust, I put you in here for a reason, you do belong. And then, as they started talking about their wins, you could see all of a sudden, these other business owners who she was really looking up to. And they were able to feedback and say, Oh, my gosh, like, that is a roadblock that I didn't overcome until I was five years in like for you to be able to do that now is amazing. And they kind of like forced the praise, like, Please stop, like, appreciate that. And that's a pretty amazing thing to get to witness. Because all of a sudden, like, you know, their shoulders go back, it's like, oh, my gosh, I really am doing it. Yeah, pretty fun.
Pua 31:43
Totally. I love that. I had a business coach who was really big on celebrating because she knew that it would literally change like the chemical makeup of your experience of being business owner. And like, we go through so much challenge that I feel like celebrating, like pausing to celebrate, A. we feel like we're not worthy of the celebration, right? Like, there, we've done this, but we still have all these other things that we didn't do, or it's just a small part of a bigger goal that I'm not at yet. And we minimize and minimize and minimize and to create a space where that can be like, just take a breath of gratitude and a breath of celebration. And sometimes it takes other people to hold the mirror up and say like, you are amazing, you did this. And I love there's a lot of talk about comparison is the thief of joy, and we shouldn't be doing it and it's causing all this stuff. I would say that there is healthy comparison, in the example you just shared. Hey, that's amazing. It took me five years to do this, and you did it in three months, please pat yourself on the back like that, to me is praise. It is you know, comparing your story to mine in a way that helps you to understand the amazing thing that you just accomplished. Because without that, you may have no foundation for where it could have been for other people. So, it's really beautiful.
Kari 33:15
And you know, as you're sharing, I think the other thing, and it sounds like you had a coach that was amazing that way as well, which, what a gift. But to reckon, I think we're living in a world where comparison is so available. And we see you know, you go online, and you see YouTubers who have these insane homes and beautiful lives, and they're traveling all over the world. And I think they showcase that. And we get a really skewed view of how many people are succeeding at that level. And we forget that 99.9% of the world doesn't live like that at all. So, then we don't celebrate.
Pua 33:58
–they probably don't live like that.
Kari 33:59
They don't I mean, right? We know that. When you think about like, Okay, give me your small wins, like what we perceive as something minute, that's the norm. And I think we need as we are responsible to share more of that. So, that we can write this ship that is so off kilter. We need to start just celebrating the small things so that other people feel when they compare. It's like, oh, no, I feel like I am on track. I feel like I am recognized. I am doing a great job. Because if the only things they ever see are the really big extravagant wins. Yours just feels like nothing. So, I think it's our responsibility to put that out there.
Pua 34:45
Absolutely. It's like those videos you see. I'm thinking of a video of a dad had his daughter on the bathroom counter in the mirror. And he was like, repeat after me. I'm beautiful. I'm strong. I'm sure you've seen tons of videos like that. And everyone's like, Oh, what a great dad. Oh, this is such a good, you know, habit to build for such a young child, and yet as adults shouldn’t we still be doing that? Shouldn't we still be looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying you woke up today? You're showing up, you're amazing, you're intelligent, you're smart, you're beautiful, you are making an impact. And yet, we do the opposite. You're not good enough. Who are you to do this? Right, impostor syndrome is just that negative self-talk. And I think it's, we often need other people to remind us that it's okay to celebrate ourselves.
Kari 35:36
And it's not, I truly now, I know, I know for sure. Imposter syndrome is not related to the status that you've achieved. There is a cell memory where we feel like we are not enough and whether you have achieved that insane level of success. If you have it, you have it. And I think the way to overcome it. I think, the jury's still out on it, but I feel that there is a get emotional about it. I feel like there's a gateway that opens when we see it and others. Just before I got on this call, I was connecting with a gentleman that I have just come to know in the last few months, and I really enjoy him. And he's got some huge goals this year. And he said, my mantra this year is be better. And I said, Tell me more about that. Like, what is what is that? And he said, Well, I just want to be better, I want to show up more, I want to be kinder, I want to be braver, I want to be healthier. And it was wild to me because as soon as I reflected that back in him of what I saw in him, I could tell that there was like a switch flipped. Where then all of a sudden, he could see it in himself. And I think the more that we can do that for others, like just acknowledge when someone has changed your day, like small things. I think when we feel seen, it allows us to acknowledge ourselves a little more easily. And I think we're trying to come at it from this point of self-confidence and affirmations and you know, doing the work to change our own mindset. But I truly believe we're community people were designed to be in relationships. So, when we see it in someone else, inevitably, we will see it in ourselves.
Pua 37:22
That's beautiful.
Kari 37:25
It's my thought.
Pua 37:22
Yeah, no, It's so interesting the judgment that came up for me, when you told me that, oh, I want to be better. I'm like, Oh, you're good enough? Like, why don't know that? And yet, I would say the same thing. I want to be better than I was yesterday. And that feels like a very positive goal. And yet understanding that it's okay to progress as long as we understand that we're enough today. And that is so much easier to say to other people than it is to do until we practice it.
Kari 37:22
And you know, it's interesting, because when I heard that, when he first said it, I attached a tone to it, like be better, right? It sounded like military or something like, Come on, get it together. I had the same reaction where I was like, oh, gosh, that just sounds harsh. And then, luckily, I stayed curious. I was like, tell me more about that. Like, what's that all about? And then when he gave it back, I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, it does feel like I'm good today, but I'm gonna be even better tomorrow. I was like, Yeah, I can get on board with that. And how can I? And that's been my thing is asking, like, how can I support you in that? Where would you like me to show up? And then be really committed to that, like I put it, it sounds crazy. But I put it in my calendar. Like, I will write a little note just to touch base. And how's that going? And just making sure that I stay connected. But sometimes don't always remember to do that when things get busy or crazy or stressful or whatever. So, I just put a little note, like a little checkbox to make sure I connect with that person to follow up.
Pua 39:02
Yeah, that's beautiful. I think those touchpoints mean, they're so meaningful. And even the intent and sort of the practice of reminding yourself because we're all so busy that we, in our hearts, right after a conversation like today. I'm like, I want to stay connected with Kari, for sure. And if I don't put that in my my calendar, it's not because I changed my mind tomorrow, and I decide I don't like Kari. No, I just truly forgot. And so those little hacks I think are really, really important. For business. Yes. And for that deeper human connection that I think we're really talking about and that method of support.
Kari 39:45
And it sounds kind of artificial. When I share that with people. I was really hesitant to share that at first because I thought it made me sound like I'm just not a naturally caring person. And then when I leaned into it, I thought, No, actually, it just allows me to be the type of person that I want to be. But it gives me a strategy. It's a system and a process that allows me to be the type of person I want to be. And if I'm, I feel terrible when something's gone six months, and I think, oh my gosh, I totally forgot that they had this big thing in their lives, or, you know, somebody had a graduation or they got a promotion, and I meant to connect with them. And then I just forgot. So, now I'm like, Nope, I have a system for that I slotted into my calendar, I make a checkbox, I do all the things. And it just, it aligns. But it sounds so artificial.
Pua 40:36
It doesn't really, I mean, I didn't think that. It truly sounded to me like a great idea. I need to start doing that. And even just saying hi, like, I am now wondering. So, I went to a conference last year. And I met up with a client who I'd never met before. And that was really magical and wonderful. And then through just sitting together with different people throughout the conference, we made a couple of friends. And you know, when you're in spaces like that you like to spend your lunch break together, you hang out at the social gatherings. And, you know, you're always like exchanging information. Oh, we'll keep in touch. Yeah, cool, we'll keep you posted. More often than not, you kind of just don't, and it's nobody's fault. But nobody, you know, has the awareness to start that conversation again. And I think everybody wants to, and they mean to, and one person in this group sends a text every, probably two to three months. Hey, just checking in, how's everything going? And we'll send little texts and updates. And you know, we've done one Zoom call, we have another one scheduled. And without that person doing that, we would not be in touch anymore. And I'm wondering if he has a similar setup, and it feels like Oh, my God, Mel is the best at staying in touch. He's just so natural at it. Even if he was doing that, like the feeling that I get when he checks in is the same. I don't care if he sets a reminder, it makes me feel great when I get a text from him, you know, so? Yeah.
Kari 42:12
Yeah. It's a system. And I think it's the same in business, right? Like, I think how many times we say to our team members, like, Oh, if you know, if you have an issue, like come talk to me, but we don't book the regular touchpoint meeting, we don't check in because it's like, oh, things are going fine. We don't need one. And I think that those routines of connection, whether it's every two or three months, you connect with someone that you met at a conference, so that you just keep that door open. Or if it's someone that you go, No, this is a person I want to connect with every two weeks or every month, you just set that parameter to say, Okay, here's what I'm going to do. But those routines of connection, no matter what, not when you have a problem, not when you have something great to share, but just checking in.
Pua 43:00
Yeah. The other thing is, I think people are afraid they're bothering you, right? I might, you know, Kari told me I could reach out to her any time, it's not that big of a deal. I don't want to bother her with this little thing. Right? And you if you had known that you'd been like, Why didn't you call me? So, having yeah, having regular touch points, I think alleviates that as well.
Kari 43:19
I think with clients too, right, like I think today was actually the last session of our group coaching program. And I was able to say to the audience, like, if you have something amazing that happens, and there's a little voice inside your head that goes, I'd love to tell Kari about this. Please do. And I said like that lights up my day, that's my favorite thing is to get a little win message from one of my clients, even if it's been years. Like, please do that. If you run into a challenge, and you're like, oh, gosh, like I just need this resource, right? I just love to know, a little bit. I'm like, please email me. Like, I think when we attach it and we say, Okay, here's what I do want, here's how you can stay connected, then it alleviates some of that doubt to say, Well, is this okay? Is this not okay? Like, how does this work? And then I also set some boundaries on the other side. So, if someone sends me a long email and says, Oh, I need all of these things. Now it's on my side to say, Okay, would you like to book a session? Or would you like just five minutes of feedback? Right, but I get to decide that. I think that's where the dance of those relationships comes in. But I think the clearer we are I you know, I think it's a Brene Brown quote, right? She says all the time clear is kind. Yeah, and I think there's so many things that we could be so much clearer on, you know, what's okay and what's not okay if you want to send me a text and tell me how amazing your year has been? Like, please do that. Yeah.
Pua 44:51
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I just from hearing you and meeting you and listening to your podcast. It feels genuine, you know, I think people sometimes you're like, Yeah, keep me posted. And may or may not mean it. But again, that's not clear, right? Like, thanks so much keep me posted, doesn't feel like a genuine offer where you're like, This is literally the best part of my day, please give me great days, like, I want you, I invite you to share that with me. And so I think you're right, being clear being genuine. It's all very energetic, and you can feel it. And I think if we are able to tap into that intuitive, like, understanding of something that's authentic and genuine, which I feel like as humans, we moved away from and we are starting to come back. There's a lot of guidance around that and just encouragement for us to reconnect with our intuition. And I believe that that's going to help us to differentiate between the offers that are sort of empty and those that actually are meaningful.
Kari 45:55
I truly hope so. I think you can feel it, you can feel it when people are like, Oh, no girl, I got you or right, I know what that feels like to be in that situation. And to just be there and listen, I think you can feel when it's authentic. And I'll be honest, like this is one of the challenges, I was really reluctant to actually to even call myself a coach. Because I thought the industry was so saturated with people who I don't always know have the best intentions. I think there's some time selling things for a ridiculous amount of money that don't have value. And so I really pulled back, I wanted to be called something different. And then I came up with all these fancy titles that nobody knew what they meant and ended up kind of right back where I started. But I think in the end, it comes back to you. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. It doesn't matter what service that you provide. It's are you representing what you can truly do? Are you not, you know, over-representing yourself selling something that secretly in your own gut, you know, you're not, there's a difference to me between imposter syndrome is you are, you've got the skill, you've got it. You just aren't comfortable in that outfit yet. Versus I think there's a different side of that where people are overselling something that secretly they know, there's no value there. And I listened to a podcast here about two weeks ago. And I always laugh, you know, what, do you ever talk back to podcasts?
Pua 47:29
All the time.
Kari 47:30
We're listening. And I'm like, what did you just say? And then I rewind it, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe you said that. And then I so want to phone them. But I heard this thing like that. It was all about marketing. And they were saying it doesn't matter. Even if you have a terrible product. You just need to keep selling it to people that even if it's terrible, you will find five out of 100 people will buy. I'm still worked up about it. Because I'm like, that's the worst advice ever. Like no.
Pua 47:58
Ever. That scares me that that's out there.
Kari 48:00
And I think you could have saved yourself 95 phone calls and terrible reviews, and a really hard business plan. If you would have just focused on creating something amazing, from the beginning, sell it to two people. And if they think it's amazing, they'll tell people, and then you just grow from there. Like, I don't think it's that hard. And I was just mind-blown that this, I mean, this was a top 10 podcast on Apple podcasts. Like, it was a big thing. And I thought we can't be here. We cannot be having this conversation. Please don't listen.
Pua 48:42
Oh my gosh, yikes. Well, thank goodness for you. And I hope that this becomes a top 10 Apple podcast and people listen to it. And they're like, Oh, I know what she's talking about. I'm glad that I didn't listen.
Kari 48:55
Right? Pua and I are gonna like go to the top and be like, listen.
Pua 48:53
Right? Just starting a revolution.
Kari 48:56
Give great service.
Pua 48:58
I love it. It's really it. I used to work for Yelp. And people would come up to me all the time. They're like, we hate you. And I'm like, Well, thankfully, I didn't invent this. It's just my job. So sorry. And if you give great service, you're gonna get great reviews. I know, it's not that easy. I know. It's I know that Yelp has. I actually like less of a fan, especially as a business owner. But I like if somebody had a bad experience, honor that and help to make it right. Don't get mad at the platform. Right?
Kari 49:29
Put your concerns where they need to go. And you know what, I think that's such a valid point to like, people who will take time out of their day to write a terrible Yelp review are probably not that happy, and what I love like even with Google reviews, how you can click on the actual reviewer and see what other reviews have they left because if maybe they only give one-star reviews. That's the only thing that gets attention in their life. But then I'm gonna push other people like if you have a decent experience, the way that you change that algorithm is don't let the people who are constantly giving negative reviews take the platform. Like it's kind of up to us. And I think as small business owners, it's one of my favorite things to do. Like, if I go into another business where I'm happy with the service, I'll let them know. And if they have created a situation where maybe I'm feeling a little disappointed, or I wasn't super happy with it, I will also take time out of my day to try to let them know without slamming it all over social media or creating a Facebook post or anything. Because I think you know what, no, I know this is hard. It is hard to be in a service-based industry. So, let's just support each other. So, I think like as small business owners, that's like such a simple thing that you can do. It doesn't cost you anything, just leave a decent review for people so that you're shifting that algorithm. And I wish more people, I just wish there was more data. Because I think the results are skewed.
Pua 50:56
Yeah, feedback is data. That's beautiful. Well, I would love for you to share one more time, how people can connect with you, share your podcast, how they can learn more about what you do. And if they're interested in joining one of your programs. Yeah, tell us all the things.
Kari 51:15
Absolutely. So, my podcast is Be The Anchor the podcast, and it's available on all major platforms. My audience for that is primarily small business owners. We're talking about it all, the challenges, hiring, delegating, mindset, all of that. And then my website is betheanchor.ca. And that's where you can find out more about the Anchored Leadership Academy. If you want to book an inquiry call, we can just chat. It's low-pressure, just find out if it's a good fit. And the next cohort will be going through starting in March. So, I'm really excited about that. And yeah, you can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook.
Pua 51:54
Beautiful. Thank you so much. We'll put all that in the show notes. And it was an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. I truly look forward to staying connected for real. And yeah, thank you for what you do.
Kari 52:27
Well, Pua you put out the offer, as soon as you said, Oh, I'm in Hawaii, and just started sharing a little bit about that. I'm like, Oh, God, I'm the type of person that you will see me it might be 10 years from now. But yeah, I just so appreciate the opportunity to connect and for allowing space on your podcast today because you just have such a beautiful way of making me feel welcome and just sharing such a great message, and love your energy.
Pua 52:38
Amazing. We'll do round two in real life when you come here.
Kari 52:40
Yes, let's do it. I would invite you here. I don't know how attractive freezing weather and snow is to you. But you are absolutely welcome to come this way as well. And it'll just be a little bit of a different experience.
Pua 52:52
I need to use my jackets. My jackets and my hats and my scarves like yeah, we don't use those here. They are just collecting dust. I'll be there.
Kari 53:02
Sounds awesome.
Pua 53:03
Awesome. Thank you so much. Kari.
Kari 53:05
Thank you so much.
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Entrepreneurs and course creators often find themselves contending with the challenges of launch delays, a common hurdle for many. Pua takes a deep dive into the intricacies of why these delays occur and how perfectionism, coupled with imposter syndrome, can impede the path to a successful launch. By shedding light on the impact of these psychological barriers, she underscores the significance of overcoming fear, embracing failures, and initiating imperfect launches as essential steps toward building resilience.
Pua advocates for embracing imperfections and learning from inevitable failures. Drawing from her own experiences, she emphasizes the importance of prioritizing content quality over external perfection, urging creators to focus on their message rather than getting bogged down by technical details. The podcast also touches on the pitfalls of involving friends and family in beta launches and suggests a middle-ground approach to gathering feedback while managing expectations. Pua concludes the episode by expressing her heartfelt wish for all listeners to achieve success in their launches and provides guidance on the path to attain that success.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Think Media--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript:
Pua 00:00
Through perceived failures, we often learn the most, we improve the most after them if we're able to. If we're able to take that as feedback, right and not let it emotionally derail us. I encourage you to fail often and fail quickly and recover quickly.
Pua 00:22
Hello, and welcome to the Rebel Media podcast. I'm your host Pua. And today we are talking about, well, I don't have a name for the episode yet. But here are the sort of keywords that are coming to mind as I think about what we're going to chat about today. Perfectionism, upper limits, launch delays, self, and these are like launch delays within our control, not like oh my gosh, I was going to launch with a webinar and my power went out or my email list. Like, there are reasons to delay your launch. Today, though, we are talking about why a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners and course creators and even product people tend to experience this phenomenon right before their expected launch. So, we work with a lot of people, obviously, online course creators are the bulk of our clientele. And there's usually a launch date for your program. This launch date could be based on several things, right? You could base it off of an auspicious date that you like, you could base it off of something that correlates with the subject, right? So, whenever we think of, or whenever I think of special days, you know how there's like National Donut Day, National Go Outside and Hike up a Mountain Day? Well, there is National Rhino Day. September 22, wait, let me Google this. Is it Rhino? Yeah, national Rhino Day. It's September 22. World Rhino Day, okay. It's world. It's global. It's not even national. So, this is like, let me back up. In the past, I was a part of a nonprofit organization called the Wild Aloha Foundation. I co-founded it with a couple of friends of mine. And we focused on having events to raise money for animal protection, the preservation of species, and the whole reason why we started it is because the co-founder and I who are high school classmates are obsessed with rhinos and like we need to save the rhinos, guys, rhinos are going to become extinct if we don't do something about it. And so we would, you know, share, like if there was an organization that was protecting the rhino in South Africa, or Tanzania or something, and she would send it to me, and we would donate, you know, $10 or $20. And it felt like nothing, it felt like we weren't even helping. And I know every dollar counts, everything, everything helps. But we just really wanted to be able to make a more impactful donation. And so we would have these events and every event had a dedicated animal and beneficiary. So, we would switch between like local causes like wine monk seals, and sea turtles. And we would have an event for that. And then we would have an event for something national, like rhinos, or pangolins, or anything that's trafficked, abused, poached. Anyway, this is not about me, this is not about the foundation. But what I'm trying to say is we correlated the event in September, with National Rhino Day. So, we would always have it as close to that day as possible. Woah, I really went off track here. Thanks for staying with me. So anyway, my point is, you typically will have a launch date for something that you're working on. Wow, reeling me back in. So, the entire reason why I'm talking about this is a lot of times right before we get to that launch date, we tend to start, like nitpicking and it's good, right? So, you know, I was working with a client, and he had just, he, he is not the client, the type of client that I'm talking about today. But he launched his program. You know, we spent about three weeks moving his course content over to a new platform and testing, designing the platform, branding it, and he brought his clients and he switched them over. And as he was in that process, or like the hour before, we found a bunch of things that needed to be fixed. And we went in and we like we fix them and that was sort of like the urgency around those final rounds of testing are the things that we may have missed in QA. So, there's that style, the other style is right before you launch, you all of a sudden find all of these things that didn't matter to you before. But now they are so important to you. So, people who are, right, you're about to launch. And all of a sudden you start testing and testing and testing and finding all of these things that you didn't find before. Or right, that's, that's good. We should test, we should test a lot. And then once we launch, we should keep testing and then we should ask for feedback. But the more problematic situation is when you all of a sudden decide you need to make all of these changes. Oh my god, you know what? My brand colors don't actually reflect who I am. Would you mind going back into my website and changing everything that was green to purple? I just liked that better. And then I'm gonna have my designer change my logo. So, we're gonna have to change that everywhere. I just, you know, I don't want to launch with something that doesn't feel aligned. Okay, cool. We'll change everything to purple. And then we're good to go. Okay, great. Actually, you know what I'm thinking about it, I think I'm going to rewrite my welcome sequence, how hard would it be to reschedule my webinar that I'm going to launch with, just to make sure that everything is good, you know, and we get stuck in this kind of, like cycle of perfectionism. And a client of mine, earlier this week, we were talking about this, and he was like, Oh, my gosh, perfectionism is procrastination in disguise. And it's so true. So, let's think about this. Let me look at my notes. Because I did outline this in a way that was very sequential, but I'm already totally off my notes. What is that called? Here are my notes. We want our entrepreneurial ventures to be perfect. But what happens when the pursuit of perfection becomes a hindrance rather than an asset? I really liked that. Okay, so let's think about this. It's okay to want things to look good. It's okay to want things to be impressive. First impressions are very important. I'm not downplaying that fact, at all. However, if we think about something like an online course, or like a product even, and we look at other people in our industry in the same space that we're in or even different spaces, look at what they launched with first, perhaps look at cars, okay. Automobile Manufacturers come out with these new versions of cars. And like, have you heard of a recall where the brakes stop working, or cars start catching on fire, like, these are life or death situations, and these automobile companies still put the car out there into the world. And then they got the feedback, right? Something happened, it wasn't perfect. And they recalled it, went back to the factory and fixed it. Okay, Boeing, two weeks ago, the side of a plane on an Alaska Airlines Flight fell off. And now there's all of these things that Boeing owes. They skipped quality control, blah, blah, blah, blah. Really? Like these are the things that should be perfected before they're launched. And even these people launched without perfection. Now, in those situations, like so not okay. But in our situation where we're launching a course that might have a color that's a little bit off, or a sentence that we might want to fix later, those things should not stop you from getting your product and service out into the world. Right? Perfectionism also doesn't really come from you wanting your client to have the best experience, sorry, you already want that or you wouldn't be an entrepreneur, because entrepreneurship is so hard. It is so incredibly exhausting, sometimes and challenging. And, you know, most entrepreneurs, I know, we're broke for a while. There are all these reasons why we probably shouldn't be doing this. But here we are because we love it. And we have that sort of rebel tendency where we have a solution that we want to get out into the world and we know that it's a good solution. And so we are sacrificing all of these aspects of our life in order to get it out there. That's why we're doing this. So, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be here. So, let's not lie ourselves. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that you're trying to be perfect to provide a perfect experience. You want to help people, you want to make the world better. So, perfectionism is about you. It's about your fear of failure. It's about your fear of negative feedback. It's about you feeling like you aren't good enough, you have that impostor syndrome bubbling up inside of you. And you need to make sure that this thing is perfect. So, people don't see your imperfections. I know it's a tough pill to swallow. I just want to be real. I experienced this too. Like, I'm not saying this because I'm perfect. I'm not. I mean look at this podcast. Seriously. But it's, you know, I think. And the other thing, too, is right, if we put ourselves out there. And nobody buys this thing that we've spent so many hours building, it's not just an emotional hit. It's not just a loss of all of that time and effort. It can feel like a business loss, like you expected to make these many sales to bring in this much revenue to you know, recoup all of this time and effort that you've put into this. And you didn't, right? That's a legitimate fear. And yet, still not something that should stop you from launching. Because when you don't launch, you're also making $0. Right? And the reward, the payback, yes, hopefully people buy it. Hopefully, it's successful, and you can bring in some income from this effort. And if you don't, the real loss is not, it's like sitting in your quote, unquote, perceived failure, and not looking for data to collect, not getting feedback. Oh, I saw that you. You liked my post but didn't buy, can I ask you why I'm just looking for some feedback to improve my launch for next time. Asking for feedback can be difficult. It can force you to sort of put your tail between your legs and do the thing like, talk to people, like we talk to people? No, I don't want to do that. Right? So, I get it. But at the same time, like, you got to launch the thing. Because if you have this phenomenal course, or this incredible product or service, and you've been talking about it, and people are like oh my gosh, this is great. This is life-changing, you're going to change lives, you're going to help moms, you're going to help dads, you're going to help, you know, students and kids and whatever whoever your target audience is, by you not putting that out there. You are speaking into the universe, that you don't think that your product or service is good enough to help. If you believe that this will change people's lives, then you must take action in order to show other people, yourself and the universe that you believe that this is something worth buying. Okay? Okay.
Pua 13:18
So, this is something I see a lot, like a lot, a lot. And it comes through. So, my team and I build online courses, we build websites, we build funnels, we build landing pages, email sequences, all of these things to help you sell your stuff. And we work very closely with the business owners, we get to know you and your business deeply. We often feel like we are an extension of your team. Which is it, kind of is like, what is that word, schizophrenic? Like, I'm a realtor today. I am a business coach tomorrow. I am a life coach. I am a fitness coach. I work with a lot of coaches. But it's so interesting because we have to put all these hats on and sort of research these different industries and businesses and clientele in order to properly build. So, you know, it is a little bit of like, perform. We're like performers, we jump on a call I understand your market, jump on a call, I can speak your language. So, anyway, it's a thing. It's really fun. And when we get close to launch, things can get a bit tense. And I say that gently. And you know what, I'm just gonna come out and say it like sometimes I feel like our clients get frustrated with us and we get frustrated with our clients because they're all of a sudden, asking us for all of these things that over the last few weeks or months weren't necessarily important. They weren't an issue. They weren't anything that seemed important to the client and all of a sudden is the most important thing and must be changed right away. And for us, we're like, Oh, my God, where did this come from? Like I don't, and maybe the clients launching tomorrow. And so, you know, our team is very balanced, we have a lot of projects that we maintain. And I always make it very clear to our clients that we don't, we can't with integrity, promise, immediate responses and immediate action on the things that you're asking of us, with a few exceptions, right? If you are literally launching in five minutes, and we are supporting you with this launch, and helping you to manage your tech for the launch, of course, we're going to be there. And we're going to be, you know, flipping switches and pulling levers. But in general, we do need a little bit of time to execute on things, a day or two, you know, I'm not talking a week or two weeks. And yet, like when we when it gets up to that like right before launch, when all when we've tested, things are good, things are stable, we are ready to open the doors. And then all of a sudden, all these changes get submitted to us. And they're not done right away. And the clients like what's what's going on, oh my god, I'm in here, I'm looking at the website, it's not changed yet. And that is perfectionism, that is imposter syndrome. That is the clients need to feel like everything is so buttoned up, and so perfect, that they're going to start to see holes that may or may not actually be real, and have this, like urgent need to have them fixed right away. And it creates a very sort of, yeah, it creates tension. And it's not bad. You know, we've never had an experience that we aren't able to resolve. But I do want you to be aware of this because it does matter. If you have a service provider that you're working with and, you know, it matters how you speak to them. It matters how they speak to you, it matters, how you approach your pre-launch phase with them and with each other. Again, we're human, it happens. And you know, we've experienced it before, we will experience it again. But just something to be mindful of because I think sometimes people just don't understand why this is happening. And now that you have this awareness, perhaps you'll be able to take some deep breaths, launch, quote-unquote, imperfectly, you know, put your best foot forward but know that the act of launching is going to help you improve things better, faster, and, you know, with greater strides than you nitpicking right before you go live, right? We're also human, this is also an evolution, it's a muscle that we have to sort of train and practice. And this is very common with content creators. So, if you are aspiring to create a YouTube channel, this is huge. This happens all the time. Okay, so we have I like to follow a YouTube channel called Think Media. And they've been around for a long time. They are sort of leaders in the content creation space, they coach people on how to launch and maintain great YouTube channels. They are also really, really savvy with gear and cameras and tech and all of that. I think they were a videography team. And now they do like tech reviews and camera reviews are really really great. Sean Cannell and his team. So they, one of his mottos is just hit record. Think about that. Now. If you were to walk outside, and you're like, oh, I want to be a YouTube creator, I want to be a content creator, I want to have like 100,000 followers on Instagram. How do you do that? You create content, and you post it and you put it out there. And you do it consistently. You do it every day, you do it multiple times a day it becomes your life. Now, how are you going to create that much content and be able to put all of that out there? If you're stuck in a wheel of perfectionism and impostor syndrome? Look at these influencers. Look at all of the videos that you see posted on YouTube and social media. They are not perfect. In fact, the ones that do the best are the less perfect ones, right? The people who have great comedic timing who just hit record and film themselves walking outside down the street, I just I truly believe that the more you can practice your launching, the more you can practice putting things out into the world, the easier it will get in the less you'll feel like you need to tweak every little thing. Before we're talking about content creators real quick. Let's think about how people consume the content. The same thing is true for your online courses or your product. How do people and products I think are a different beast like those are something physical that people are holding the whole product review space, Yelp, not so much. That's a whole different beast as well. But like Amazon reviews, Google reviews for a product that you can take a picture of, if it's broken like something, I do think perfecting a product is more important, perhaps, than perfecting a something like an online course or content or social content. Probably going to get a lot of heat for what I just said. Hopefully, you know what I'm saying. And I don't have to backpedal too much, but Okay, so if you're an online course creator, right, and you are really wrapped up in your gear, in your tech, in your environment that you are recording in and having a light and a DSLR camera that is connected by USB to your computer, and you want to get like the best mic. Let me tell you, this may look like a shore, but it sure is not. This is a FDUCE. It's a knockoff, it looks really slick. You see this right here if you're watching this video, which this is an audio podcast, so you're probably not, although I'm thinking of putting this on YouTube. So, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see this right here. This is Sharpie that I blocked. I blacked out the the Made in China name of this microphone, because who cares? It works just fine. And I have a podcast, I'm not like a sports anchor. So, don't get wrapped up in your tech cake. Here's Okay, here's my point. I don't think that anybody who needs to listen to your course content is going to be nitpicking that you did or did not have a ring light in front of you, or that you did or did not have the most curated beautiful background. It's like, yes, have a professional background. If you have to do in front of a blank wall do in front of a blank wall, you know why, your content is king or queen, or neither or both? It's royalty, your content is what matters. Your content is what people are buying, you can always rerecord later when you've brought in some money and you can upgrade your tech. But without being able to teach people and guide people into the transformation or results that they're looking for. Nobody's gonna care that you don't have any of your fancy stuff. Now, when people consume course content, sometimes they're consuming it in the car, that means they're not even watching you. Okay, I, in the past, purchased a $15,000 course, that when I took advantage of the fast action discount, it was $9,000. Still, that is that's tons of money. I went into credit card debt for it, we can talk about that another day. I don't recommend doing that. But I did it. So, we can all learn from my mistakes, I'll do that in another episode. Now, that course was phenomenal. It was so expensive because their promise was that they could help you to recoup that money by utilizing their techniques and their strategies. Now, that is a sales tactic, again, that I am not super, super obsessed with but their entire course, was audio with subtitles, like across the screen. So, they would have this like, very, you know, blank background or, you know, some sort of stylized background and the words would just scroll. That was it, you listened to it. And then sometimes they did a screen share so it was a course that taught you how to utilize your essentially like fine-tuning your onboarding sequence and utilizing Facebook ads to bring people into your ecosystem in order to get them to buy. It was a really, really cool formula. And it worked like a charm like their content was phenomenal. And where I needed to watch a video they had a video and it was a screenshare, right? The people you, I rarely saw the people I saw them sometimes. You know, I think that's important. Show your face smile, like let people connect with you as a human. But again, don't get so wrapped up in your gear and you're perfecting like your recording because you're just keeping things from people. This podcast, I have said so many things, I have paused, I've said um a million times. And if it was my first one I would be like oh my god, do we need to go in and edit all of those things and maybe you do that maybe you don't? I'm gonna tell you right now you don't need to you know why? People are gonna listen to this podcast and hopefully, I'm hoping that they kind of chuckle when I say something stupid or make a joke of myself or talk to myself which is something that I do constantly because I am a podcast host of one. So, there it is right like that. So, anyway, you get my point. If you want to put something out there, if you want to help people, if you want to get a message out there, if you want to be a content creator, if you want to be an influencer, if you want to be a course creator, if you want to put a product out there, do it, launch it, and get feedback, improve upon the product or service or course or content, based on the feedback and launch again, that needs to be your cycle. The other reason, when you proofread your own stuff, remember back in grade school, when we went to school before the internet before chatGPT, when we had to go to the library to do research, like the good old days, right? Anyways, we could proofread our own paper five times and never catch the same mistake. Or never catch the mistake, right? Like, it's the same thing. If you're proofreading your own stuff, you're proofing your own stuff, you're testing your own stuff, you may not catch something that is important. And you might see things that aren't important that you get fixated on. The best way to improve upon your product or service is to launch, collect feedback from those who consumed it, iterate on that feedback and launch again, and let that be your cycle. Okay, if you have an internal team, if you're queuing things for testing for making sure that emails are deploying and that, you know, you don't have typos, that's great, I think you should keep doing that. But don't get fixated on the little details that don't matter that keep you from launching.
Pua 26:26
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about friends, family and beta launches. Oh, I'm laughing because beta launches have been around for so long, and they feel very outdated to me, I've never liked the idea of a beta launch. And here I am, once again, coming back around to something that exists for a reason. I think beta launching is important to do. Sort of like, okay, this is going to be sort of my personal opinion piece, and take it or leave it. Now. This whole podcast is that I hope you know that. We have helped people through all sorts of launches, we've helped people who have zero list, to build a little bit of a list, to launch to their friends and family to overcome that fear of posting on their own social media. That word comes up a lot. When you know, if you are new to business, you don't have a list for your business, you haven't collected email addresses. But you do have a personal network. And you're probably on social media. And if you're not good for you, but you probably still have a phone with people's contact. And you can individually call your friends and family and tell them what you're doing. You can send a Christmas card, you can send a mailer, like there are so many ways, if you really want to get this out there, you will figure out a way. So, there's friends and family really tricky, really, really tricky. So, our friends and our family want to support us, they want to follow us on social media and help us to get those numbers, they want to have access to your stuff for free because they told you that they'll give you feedback, and then they're so proud of you. And more often than not, they are not your target audience. And so they will likely either not use it at all, or not give you actionable, real honest feedback. They'll say, oh my god, this is so good. You're so great on camera, you, you know, this is gonna help so many people. Cool. Thank you for the ego boost. What constructive feedback do you have that I can use to make this better? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I'm not a parent. So, this is for parents, and I'm not really sure what they need. Okay, great. Thanks so much. You know, it's like, be selective. and honor them, be grateful for their support, if they want access to it, don't sweat off your back, give them access. But just know that if you are doing a launch, and you're discounting it or giving it to people for free, that you may get less feedback from friends and family especially, or anybody that's been opted in for free, versus having to pay even a little bit. And the feedback won't be as good. Now, if you are feeling like you are not in a place where you can launch this at full price, or you do want to get a little bit of feedback and make some adjustments based on that feedback before you do a big launch. And the difference between this could be beta launching to an existing list versus a public launch with ad money behind it. Right, because you want to make sure that you are sending ads for a good product. I totally understand that. You can do a launch where you tell people, hey, this is something that I just created. And as my inner circle, aka my email list subscribers or my social media followers, I would love to provide you with access to this product for 50% off something that I won't ever offer again. And all I ask is, I would love any feedback that you have, as you go through the program, and a testimonial, either written or video, at the end of the program, you're going to be in a cohort together, I'll be there every step of the way with you. This is a one-time and once-in-a-lifetime opportunity where I'm going to personally guide you through the program, live calls, you know, whatever that looks like for you. I think it's worth doing, A. because it removes the pressure of that being this full launch and you get to tell people, Hey, this is new, there might be mistakes, there might be holes, there might be things that are broken and things that you don't understand. We've done our we've put our best foot forward to put something amazing together, and we need you to help us to get it to the finish line. That to me feels like a really, really solid, middle ground. For anybody who feels like you just can't get past the perfectionism. Like, you're like it's just who I am. I just can't put anything out there that I don't feel good about how do you feel good about it, you have real people get real results from it, that will tell you that it's good. Right? If I am a fitness coach, and I have a program to help people who work nine to five desk jobs to be more active. And you want to find your measuring stick, right? What is that? What are your qualitative and quantitative before and after metrics that you can use to assess the results and the transformation of the clients that go through your program? So, for something like this, I don't even think it would be weight loss, they might also lose weight along the way, which would be cool. But I think it would be you know, how are they feeling? What are their energy levels like? How does this affect their relationships, their family time, their productivity? And so having them maybe, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how productive are you at work right now, before the program? At the end, on a scale of one to 10? You know, we've implemented things like quick morning walks before work, walks after lunch with your co-workers, do a 20-minute visit to the gym after work. I don't know this is I made this up. But it's worth having those types of results. And I highly recommend if you do have a course, to do a pre and post-assessment and have these metrics available. Because they're very helpful in case studies, they're helpful to call on for writing your website copy, for social media graphics, and social proof, and just think it's a very, very good idea. And it will help you to understand that you have created something that works. You've created something that is impactful, that makes a difference in people's lives that brings them the results that they desire the results that you've promised, right? So, all right.
Pua 33:14
I'm pretty sure that was the majority of what I wanted to share. I just, I want so badly for you as a creator, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a human, as you know, somebody who's part of a family and a community and yeah, just someone on this planet who is trying to do good things. We don't need to create more frustration, more tension, more self-doubt. I want you to feel empowered, I want you to feel like you're here for a reason, you're doing this because you are called to. And it's worth putting it out there it is. It's it's worth the, oh gosh, am I even gonna say this? I am. It's worth the potential failure. And I see this because through perceived failures, we often learn the most, we improve the most after them if we're able to, if we're able to take that as feedback, right, and not let it emotionally derail us. I encourage you to fail often, and fail quickly, and recover quickly. I know a lot of people who follow sort of like Guru launch plans, which exists because they work there. They exist because they're good. And a lot of times their first launch flops and their second launch flops and that can be a very sort of, I can't think of words today. What is that? Is that? Is that brain fog? Um, and I haven't fasted my brain should be firing. Not disappointing. I mean, disappointing. Yes. discouraging. That's the word. Who wouldn't be discouraged if you have multiple failed launches in a row? Now, if you are able to collect data and able to see where in these launches were you hitting your goals? And then where do people fall off? Right? If it's a webinar, how many people even saw your stuff? If you have no list yet? Please don't feel bad about a launch that doesn't get any sales. We're building, we're learning, right? So, my point is, collect the feedback, collect the data. Assess what needs to be changed, iterate and launch again, right? Yes, it takes energy. Yes, it takes effort. Yes, it takes resources, time, money, sacrifice, right? So, be smart about it. But don't not do it. Okay, how many more ways can I say that?
Pua 35:49
Awesome. I'm going to wrap it up here. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being a rebel in business, doing what you do, following your heart, following that calling that you've had to get you to this place that you are today. Please share your story. Share your story with the world, share your story with me if you want to. Follow me on Instagram that is my social media platform of choice @RBL.media. And I am going to be starting a YouTube channel for real, probably putting some of this long-form content on there and also exploring YouTube shorts. I know YouTube's been around for so long and I've dabbled in it here and there. Maybe this is another dabble and maybe this is a forever but I would love any tips that you have, any guidance that you have around growing a YouTube channel. I'm starting from scratch again. So, you can also find me on YouTube at RBL Media. And as always, keep crushing
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Welcome to the inaugural episode of the RBL Media Podcast. In this debut installment, host Pua engages in a dynamic conversation with Tiago Faria, a seasoned marketing expert. Join us as Tiago imparts invaluable insights into the intricacies of effective communication and the continuous refinement of marketing strategies. Tiago stresses the importance of engaging with people to understand their challenges thoroughly, advocating for the use of their language to craft compelling marketing messages. Drawing on practical examples, he encourages businesses to conduct interviews with potential clients, leveraging these conversations to gain valuable insights into client frustrations and urgent problems that need solutions. Tiago emphasizes the need for continuous refinement and evolution of offers based on client feedback, highlighting the pursuit of delivering exceptional results.
Transitioning into the realm of referral programs, Tiago and Pua address the challenges associated with referrals and offer actionable strategies for successful implementation. Tiago underscores the significance of cultivating active relationships when seeking referrals, providing a step-by-step approach to capturing attention and fostering a culture of enthusiastic advocates.
The episode delves into the power of genuine conversations, stressing the importance of contextual timing in transforming potential clients into valuable referral sources. Tiago shares his personal journey of overcoming content creation fears through a transformative 90-day challenge, emphasizing the enduring benefits of acquiring skills that would typically take years to develop. This episode serves as a comprehensive guide to effective communication, marketing refinement, and the strategic implementation of referral programs.
About Tiago Faria
Tiago Faria, a former Google employee turned business mentor, is based in Lisbon, Portugal. Tiago focuses on the health industry, employing an anti-marketing approach to simplify processes. Passionate about authentic relationship-building, he guides businesses through effective referral programs and transformative content creation. Leveraging his wealth of marketing expertise, Tiago assists clients in overcoming challenges and gaining confidence in their marketing efforts.
Resources discussed in this episode:
BNI: bni.comGetting Everything You Can Out of all You’ve Got by Jay Abraham: goodreads.comJames Wedmore: jameswedmoretraining.comMiles Beckler: milesbeckler.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Tiago Faria:
Website: tiagofaria.ptEmail: [email protected]--
Transcript:
Tiago 00:00
Make sure that in every interaction you have with people, you do the task, and you do brainstorm about who else you can help. Not only interactions with clients, maybe also with your friends, with the networks, with the connections get in the habit of doing that. What's the worst thing that can happen? Nothing.
Pualena 00:20
Welcome, officially, to the Rebel Media podcast. I am thrilled today to be chatting with Tiago Faria.
Tiago 00:30
Awesome, perfect.
Pualena 00:31
Did I do it? Yes, incredible. We just met and I took a peek at your website. And I just kind of, I have a million questions for you. And I would love for you to just give us a brief introduction to who you are and what you do so that the audience can also get super excited for the conversation that we have coming up in the next hour.
Tiago 00:55
Yes, perfect. Thank you so much for having me. It's a true pleasure and honor. It's amazing how how we're gonna interconnect. We're just chatting offline. You're in Hawaii, I'm in Lisbon, Portugal. This is insane. That we're here. And we're going to have some fun. Yeah. So, my name is Tiago. I'm from Lisbon, Portugal. And I'm a business mentor for in the help industry. So, I help coaches, consultants, mentors that want to help others succeed in some sphere of life and business. And I'd love to adopt the what I call the anti marketing method, because I myself, have had been struggling with, you know, the shiny objects and losing myself with Google ads. Because I started I worked at Google for eight years. So, I came from that background. And when I started my own business, I hit against a brick wall. Because you know, I was trying to do overly complex things for my own business and my clients with funnels, ads, and all those crazy things. And it was not working because you know, consulting, very huge corporations that are overly very proven offers that they already have, it's very much easier than creating your own business from scratch. So, I was, you know, for three years, I was struggling with that. And then adding with the fact that I was already exploring many of those gurus that are, you know, showing you multiple, fast tactics and amazing tricks that will work from night to day. And I've been trying to simplify my processes for both for myself and my clients. And it wasn’t until I read this book from Mr. Jay Abraham, getting everything you can out of all you've got focused on this last sentence all you've got. So, I started thinking, Okay, what do I have? What do we all have at our disposal ready to start, you know, creating an amazing business and sustainable and fun business? And I figured out that we all have contacts will have contact list of previous clients, leads, we all have a friends list, we have an audience, we have a network of people that could be potentially highly networked and connected with each other. So, I started simplifying and finding ways to okay, how can I leverage everything I have in my own world, to forget about all the complex marketing strategies and just focus on what we have to create an amazing business. And that's how it all started. So, I started doing it for myself, leveraging my contact lists, talking to people around me, talking to my previous clients, etc, in order to not only collect valuable information for them, because when we start creating our offers and our businesses, we stay in our own mind, and we try to create everything from scratch and then launch it to the world. And then sometimes nothing happens when we should be doing the opposite. We should start talking to people around us that are valuable potential clients, asking them questions like, What are your main frustrations? What do you been through? How is it day to day for you? What is your main objective, how has it been lately, if we talk to people we collect extremely valuable Intel, that afterwards, we can use to create our own offers and reflect what people actually want in the market. And just the fact that you're talking to people around you opens up many doors, you collected valuable data, you can go back to them and say, Hey, I just created this amazing program that solves the program problem that you told me you had, maybe there's a match here, so leveraging your current connections, and offering your program to people who need it, but also to people who don't need it. There's also another solution, which is leveraging referrals, which Jay Abraham defends strongly and I really love this creating proactively referral program and incentivizing people around you to send you clients, and then you offer a commission or a fee for that. So, you can basically overall, you can leverage everything, all the people around you, to help them help you create your own offer, give it to people who need it, and also for people who don't need it. Everyone needs money, everyone loves to help each other. So, we can also leverage our contact lists and audience lists in that sense. So, that's the basics of the anti marketing method.
Pualena 04:41
Beautiful, so you are a rebel, and what you do. Because you came from the marketing world and you were like, Ah, I think that there's an easier way. I think there's a more approachable way especially for new entrepreneurs. Like anybody listening to this, who has thought okay, I'm going to launch my business and the first thing I'm going to do is make a website. And the second thing I'm going to do is run ads to my website. That is so common. Everyone's so when do we start Facebook ads? How do I run a Google ad and I'm like, hold on, let's get some results for you? Let's get some clients through the door. And we do have so much at our disposal for little to zero cost. And that is such a smart place to start. I love your approach so much and I would love to dive into that. And I don't want to forget to loop back also to referrals, because I think that's also super powerful. And I have a few questions for you on that, too. So, from somebody who came from Google, and you've seen the power that that platform has to connect people, and if you pay Google enough, they'll put you at the top of the list. But share with me a little bit more about the success that you've seen for yourself and your clients doing things the more organic route and taking a more sort of hands on personal intentional approach to bringing people into your business.
Tiago 06:09
Yeah, absolutely. So, as I was mentioning before, it all starts with, okay, being very clear about who you actually want to serve, like your niche. I don't know if you say in the US niche. So, who exactly are you serving? What is the person and what is the specific problem that you are trying to generate a transformation for? Right? It all starts there. Because if you've got it very clear, all the rest becomes even more simpler, your communication becomes simpler, you know exactly who you're talking to. Selling to those people becomes very easy, because you know, which points to touch. Exactly. And also delivering your programming services becomes easy, because you know, exactly the path to deliver from A to Z. So, it all basically starts there. And by that starting point, everything gets unlocked. And what I like to do with my clients is okay, so what do you have a list of clients, you have a list of leads, let's let's reach out to them and interview them. So, the first thing to do is schedule an interview with five to ten people around you, very simple. Just you can post on your social media if you want, or you can send a message saying, hey, I want to create this new program around this specific topic. And I'd love to have your feedback, I would love to have your opinion. Do you have 10 to 15 minutes for us to book a quick Zoom call? And you'll be surprised by how many people say yes, it's very easy. Yes. People have to give opinions. People have to give help to who they know, or they have to, you have to have some sort of relationship with those people, right? And it's going to be very easy. Yes. And then during those interviews, the goal is to really ask those questions to uncover like, what are the frustrations? And what does it feel like to get the emotional language, emotional words, because those are the ones that we will later use in our marketing and communication, that will resonate very easily with those people, right, we're going to use the same language as our potential clients. So, you don't have to really sell too much. Because you're basically saying, Look, you have this problem, and I know how to solve it. So, it's an easy match. And the fact that you have a very clear, specific niche helps you do that. So, for example, if you are a relationship coach, and you position yourself as just a generic relationship coach, or whoever comes is a good point, it's very different than you say, Look, I'm helping men that are on the verge of divorce, and I help you turn it around, and you know, have an amazing marriage for the rest of your life. So, it becomes very clear exactly who you're talking to. And if you interact or interview those people, you get all the amazing language that they wish to have the things that are suffering day to day, what actually keeps them awake at night. And so it's amazing what it can uncover. But it seems like a very easy thing to do, right? Just talk to people around you. But we don't do it because it's too easy, right? It sounds too easy. It's very easy not to do as well, right? And some mistakes that I've been doing. And it's a mistake I've been doing for too long. And now it completely unlocks everything and my clients feel the same. So, it's an exercise that is most of the time it's transformational. Because oh my god, I never really talked to people around me about what how they feel and how they felt working with me, etc. Those interactions, you know, unlock multiple opportunities, because you get the language, you can sell it back to them a new program, you can ask, oh, by the way, do you know anyone else who will be interested in this? So, just tapping into your current clients and previous leads, like it's already you can unlock three, seven, ten people into your world and become amazing clients. But not only that there is the contact list of your clients and previous people you've worked with. But you can do the same in your audience. So, if you have a following on social media, most of us already have at least 1000-2000 people. I'm pretty sure that you already have three to seven people that are ready to buy now your new offer that you never communicated in a specific way before you ever told them that you had something first sale, right? And the way I like to do it is using those kinds of hand-raising posts, where you say, I'm looking for like five people who want to reach this goal. So, if you're this, this, and this, like if you have those specific characteristics that qualify you for a good client, then just send me a message or comment below from some word. And that gives you the excuse to start conversations, again, like to talk to people. And then you can uncover through chatting, like cause what do you make for problems, what I've been trying to do that didn't work. And then it's an easy way for you to then Okay, after that, after the conversation, you can bring her to your worlds have a video call, show your program, sell to them, become clients, and then leverage referrals again, even if the person says no, referrals are always there for you to tap to make business. Either way that it happens. So, if the person says no, okay, totally understand this is not exactly for you. But by the way, do you know anyone who this will be a great fit, actually have a referral program that will, you know, give you a commission? So, there's all the all these things that we could play around with, using everything we have at our disposal, but just leveraging it in an intentional way, right? And be very strategic about the way you approach people. And, and don't take no for like, Okay, I've just lost his client, screw this. No, just take it as okay, it's not a good match for this person. But maybe she knows someone will be interested. So, this positive approach really makes your business start growing faster, without needing ads.
Pualena 11:31
I love that. Yes, I love that. It seems that you have a very, sort of formulaic and simple approach to business growth. And it can be applied to anybody in any industry. Right? It's that sort of like a centralizing to the things that you have already, the things that you need most. And what I love about that interview process is, you're so right, we often operate in these silos where we kind of, we know what we know. And we think that we can describe the problem because we've probably gone through it, and we've studied it, and we have all of this language that we use to talk about it. And oftentimes, that language loses people, because we're using terms that they're not familiar with, or that they don't resonate with or there's a coach, I think this is James Wedmore that says this, I could be wrong. And he says, sell them what they want, give them what they need, right? And that's like using their language to connect with them to create that sort of relational dialogue, or I guess, if you're having a conversation, where you can say, like, instead of, do you need to, I always use fitness as an example. Because I think it's fairly relatable, right? I used to be in the fitness space. And we used to teach high-intensity interval training, which if you have no idea if you're just like, I just want to get healthy. And you're like, cool, are you ready for intensity interval training? And they're like, Nah, whatever that is, I don't want to take it. Yeah, so I love that approach. And something that you said, it really resonated with me from a content creation perspective. Because something in this web design world that took me so long to wrap my mind around was, Why can't people write copy for their own business? It is so difficult to write your own bio, to write your own mission statement, to write your own sales pages. And that's a sticking point for so many people. And I think it is because we are too close to it. And so when we let other people describe to us what the issues are, what their pain points are, what the results are that they're looking for, that's our copy, but they write it for us, we don't write it for ourselves. Right?
Tiago 13:55
It's unfortunately, we have this natural tendency to think too much about frameworks, you know, the way we operate like the root causes of the problems, this is your root cause of your problem, this is why you were feeling this. But when we should actually not we should use that afterward in our programs in our services to help people but before that, like you said we need to go exactly where they are and have the conversation they're already having in their minds, right, what keeps them up at night? And the most essential key that I think it will be very helpful to drill down now in this conversation is that we should focus on a problem that the person is experiencing, a symptom, an actual symptom that she's experiencing now. A now problem, not like, oh, one day I'll solve this problem. I don't know. But it has to be something that they want to solve right now urgently. Because those are the problems that people are willing to pay well for and really to say yes for. And if you talk to that exactly the specific problem that you're feeling, they will listen to you like I'm exactly the situation Tiago understands me, and if he understands me as well as he is showing it means is capable of helping me solve this problem. And yeah.
Pualena 15:06
Do you have any examples of that?
Tiago 15:08
Yeah, so I was actually thinking about it. So, the example of someone that wants to, if you create a program about losing weight, since you've talked about losing weight, or fitness, etc, if you say, Look, I'll help you lose, you know, 10 kilos in the next, whatever, three months or something like that. That kind of messaging is already very generic and people don't actually believe it that much, because they've tried so many things before it doesn't work. You say, yeah, one day, I lose those kilos. And I just don't feel like doing it now. And it's very easy to say no because I've tried many things before they believe it or whatever. And it sounds very generic, right? Versus if you try to tackle a now problem that they're facing. So, imagine they're overweight, they might be having some other issues that are, you know, related to that. Like, for example, they have some severe back pain or some knee pains that doesn't allow them to go upstairs, or they cannot just pick up their own daughter, the babies anymore because of the back pains. You know, if we find out, okay, what are my people suffering with daily that keeps them up at night? And then they feel I might, I need to solve this right now. Those are the problems that we should be going after. And you only find it out by talking to people, right, by interacting with them and asking exactly what are their main frustrations? And how does it make you feel? Can you describe it to me a bit more? You know, asking those probing questions is how you extract the emotional words and imagery that will work very well in the future. And if you talk to 10 people more, you start seeing maybe a pattern of those symptoms. Okay, this is the way to go. Or you find a very specific symptom that one or two people are feeling. And you feel okay, this is exactly the way I want to go. And maybe more people, for sure more people feel the same. And yes, I think the key to creating an amazing offer is finding that now problem that people want to solve right now. Right, and that they're willing to pay very well for it.
Pualena 17:08
Yeah, that's phenomenal advice. And I also love what you said about, you know, when you're talking to people looking for patterns, I think that's a big thing. And taking the time to just reflect, you know, after a call, oh, my gosh, this is the third person this week who has said this, perhaps I could weave that into my messaging. And you also said, you know, just because somebody said no to opting into whatever paid programmer service, you might be talking to them about, it doesn’t mean that was a total loss? Right. They also could be giving you language for your messaging. They also could be a great referral partner, as you said, and something that I question I have for you in terms of referrals–
Tiago 17:47
They also can give you objections that you might have to solve, later on. Right, like, wow, this, maybe people are stopping here because they don't believe in a specific process, or they don't like to do the specific steps. So, I need to, by design, remove that objection in my own offer. That's another way. Sorry to interrupt.
Pualena 18:05
Absolutely. No, not at all. I think that's great. And it's something that we often talk about, you know, like, where are people falling out in the funnel? Where do they? What loses their interest? And if that piece of the funnel happens to be on a call with you, it can be difficult for us to look back and you know, ask like, what did I do wrong? You maybe didn't do anything wrong. Maybe they weren't the right fit. But it is worth reflecting and saying like, what? What could I offer that would help somebody in this situation to turn that into a yes? And I think that can be a sticky place, right? Because we don't want to try to solve everybody's problems and be a yes for everyone. Some no’s are very healthy. So, what are your thoughts on sort of understanding your niche well enough to know that, you know, I feel confident in my offer, confident in my service, and yet being flexible to sort of listen to pain points and make adjustments as needed?
Tiago 19:08
Absolutely. I think that's crucial. And the offer you create, for the first time is not going to be the offer you'll have in the next six months, one year, five years. It's constantly mutating because once you bring people to the process, you will see flaws in your process and your systems and your frameworks, you will start adjusting things because it just didn't work very well. I have to try this different approach. Maybe I'll have to bring some expert from outside who is better than me at a specific point in your program. And if you start seeing exactly where people are starting to clog, you know, starting to the normal programs, we'll always have a specific place where people struggle a bit more so and you'll find that only by working with them. And then you have to be very intentional again on improving your offer as much as possible to make it easier and faster to generate results because in the end, we're in the results business, right? This helps industries, we’re in the results business, we need to generate results to people otherwise, you know, we're not going to get testimonials, we're not going to get success cases, we're not going to get referrals that as much as, as we want. And it's hard to keep a business, sustainable business in this industry, if we don't generate results, you know, it ends up, things go badly, and you just didn't really need to focus. And this is something that is not too discussed in this industry. You know, we talk too much about marketing about having clients and close as many clients as possible. But we talk very little about the other part of generating transformations and working a lot on your program to make sure it's as best as possible. Because if you have that, you can be terrible at marketing, but those clients that go through your help, they will be amazing advocates, they're like, oh, my god, yeah, this is amazing. I want to work again with you. And then to create new offers for those people to solve bigger problems. And you already have clients that love you, and they want to keep working with you. And you just keep building new things to help them with the next problem and the next problem. And those people will for sure tell lots of great things about you to others, right, and refer people to you. And then marketing becomes much easier if we focus on, you know, generating results. So, that should be something that we should work on every day, not just the marketing, and the sales, we should also have at least part of our day focused on okay, how can I improve my program? Where are people getting blocked? What are the main objections that I should bring, again, to my sales and marketing processes? Yes, I rambled a bit. But I think you got the point.
Pualena 21:39
No, yeah, I think you're dead on. And if we focus on results, first, the rest will come, right? If you have one client, you're like, I think I want to be a coach, a relationship coach, and you work with one person, you get them a phenomenal result. They become a case study, they can give you testimonials, they can provide feedback so that you can improve your program. And it got me thinking about how many times we've referred people and said, You know, I'm thinking of a company that I use to get something printed once. And so now anytime anybody asks me, Oh, who do you use for printing, I always say go here, their websites terrible, but their product is amazing. And it's like, you know, they're having a good website would be really helpful for them. And I hope at some point, they decide to revamp. But the result is so good that the terrible website doesn't really matter, I'm still going to use them. I'm still going to email them when it should be a form on the website, like, there are so many wonderful services that do have terrible marketing. And I would much prefer that over somebody who has amazing. I mean, if you have amazing marketing and a beautiful website and all these promises that you don't deliver on, that's the definition of a scam, you have to have both. And if you don't have both, you have to at least have the results and the integrity behind your business. So, I'm so glad that you brought that up.
Tiago 23:14
Absolutely, of course, the ideal scenario would be to have great marketing and great sales, amazing delivery. And that's the goal, right? The Holy Grail for a lot of us, but I think you're completely right that at the beginning stages, leveraging what I told you about the anti marketing, or whatever what you have, but then focus a lot on creating amazing results for people. And I think that's the, it launches you to, you know, everything opens up later. And you can start thinking about scaling and blah, blah, blah. But it's really crucial. And it's a natural tendency that all of us have to focus a lot on sales, sales, sales, sales, marketing, marketing, and then okay, they're already in my program, okay, I can think about new clients, new clients, new clients all the time, right? And it should not be that way, we should think about the opposite. We should think about treating like kings, our clients, right? Make sure they are super happy. And make sure that they bring us more clients. Because like this, we have to, we can start thinking less about new clients all the time, we can start thinking okay, the lifetime value of all our current clients, like what else can I offer them? What other problems can I solve for them? And then being proactive about asking for referrals, not being afraid of it. Many people are like, I've talked to many businesses that depend totally on referrals. And it's passive like they expect people to talk to each other as the goodwill of people. And that's not a business. It's like just a hoping business. And maybe one day we'll they will dry up, the referrals stop working. So yeah, the focusing on the clients. Being proactive about referrals is super crucial.
Pualena 24:48
Yeah, I want to talk about being proactive about referrals because that is a pain point for a lot of people as you said. But one thing before we move to that, what I love so much about what you just said is in the website design world, which is like we are, that's what we do. There are so many people that come to us before they begin their business. And they think the first thing they need is a website, they may have everything planned out, like, I'm gonna launch this coaching service, I'm gonna have this online course, I'm gonna have this product suite or the services. And so we're building around that. And what ends up happening is people get very caught up in making sure that their website and their Instagram and their whatever is absolutely perfect, before they start serving any clients at all. And it can almost become this, like, it's something that we hide behind. Because we're afraid to be vulnerable, we're afraid, maybe we're afraid to talk to people, maybe we're afraid that we're going to fail, maybe we're afraid to tell our friends and family that we just left our job and we're doing this now. And it just becomes this cycle where we don't actually serve anybody because we're so stuck in creating the marketing assets. So, if you're listening to this, I encourage you to reflect and if you feel like you might be in that space. Who can you serve today? Who can you get a result for? Who can you focus on that allows you to get experience and get a testimonial and get a result under your belt so that you can all these other things will come easier, as you said? So, anyway, just wanted to throw that out there anything more to add on that before we move into referrals?
Tiago 26:34
I was gonna say something about it. But now I completely lost it. Never mind, we can go ahead. It will come back.
Pualena 26:44
It'll come back. And we can always jump around. Yeah, so let's talk about referrals. Because one of the things that I hear a lot, and this has happened to me as well, is we have a referral opportunity, you know, an affiliate program, we create special links for people. And we say oh my gosh, I'll give you 50% commission if you share this or you know, whatever that looks like. And it's a great deal. It's a no-brainer, all you got to do is talk about it to a couple people, tell somebody that you know who might be interested. And it's crickets. Nobody shares. What is your experience with that? And what are your thoughts around having a more intentional and more active referral program?
Tiago 27:30
That's a great question and happens a lot indeed. I think the first thing to think about is okay, who do I have an active relationship with, okay, so some like it cannot be just random people on your network, like an Instagram friend or a Facebook friend, it has to be someone that you've been having an established relationship with at some point. It could be a client that you have, or a previous client from before, friends, or somebody you've been networking with proactively already for a while. And like you said, for you to be able to get the attention of the person, of course, you cannot just say look, I'm gonna give you money, if you give me some clients. No, you have to start thinking about, for example, with clients, remember how we worked before? How did it feel? What are you up to working together? What were the main results you got? How did it make you feel before, and your clients will tell you something, and then you can follow up with that and say, That's great. So, do you know anyone who would also benefit from those results that you got, like, remind people, the person that, you know, the benefits of working with you. And then but like this, you can start, you know, slowly capturing the attention of the person, because she's already connected. You also have to help the person to think a bit of who could they refer to you. Because most of the time, we don't have it done on top of our mind like, I don't know, have to think about it. But if you start making a brainstorm with the person, like let's think about like your friends, or do you have any association that you do go through or some networking group or, you know, your previous job. So, you know, you make a quick brainstorm with the person that you're talking to, in order for them to be more, thinking a bit about it, otherwise, they won't think about it and just goes through. And of course, mention that you have an amazing incentive for them if they bring a client. Those are the things that I feel like you should do like position yourself as someone who really helps people, remind them that the result amazing results you can provide to people, help them think about who they know in their own world and describe exactly who is the ideal client that you can help generate the fastest, easiest results. And it's much better than just simply sending an email look at this referral program. Send me clients, I’ll pay you this. So, it's actually having conversations with people. And by taking the time to book calls with them. And of course, not only the clients that you do work with before people around you, but even if you, like we said, even when you are talking to a potential client that doesn't know you, and imagine the person says yes to your program, that's the perfect timing already for you to also say, Oh, that's awesome that you're going together. By the way, do you know when no one else will be interested in this? I actually have a referral discount. So, if you come to our program, and you bring someone else I can give you actual discount for both of you like the percentage something like that and that is already a way for you to, you know, get in the habit of systematically asking for referrals in the perfect timings, timings where people are more warmed up and looking forward to working with you and knowing exactly what they will get. And also the other approach is what we talked about, like transforming, you know, the person who's talking to you, so you get to know you into potential yeses through yeses, it's like asking, so I know, this is another ideal scenario for you, but you actually know someone who will be who would benefit from this program that I'm building here. I truly believe in this software is like, I want to generate transformations. For people, it's I know this works very well. So, then you can brainstorm again with that person before saying bye. And you'll see that some most people are willing to help. If you are in the right context, if you ask the right questions, etc.
Pualena 31:27
I love this. I've noticed three themes that we've been touching on throughout this conversation. One, obviously, use what you got, which people like to not, for some reason, like to make life hard. Two, talk to people. At this point, people also don't like to do that for some reason. And I do think it's that sort of fear of vulnerability. And once we start to have these conversations, everyone gets easier and easier and easier. And it's just a matter of like, start with the first few and get a little uncomfortable and realize that it's actually not that bad. And three, ask for what you want. Right? Like, we've all heard ask for the sale. But you can also ask for the language, ask people what their pain points are, ask people what they want results in, ask people for the referrals, the right referrals for you. I love that you said that. And that that's part of your framework for having referral conversations. Because there's also a tendency for people to sort of misunderstand what it is that you do and what you offer in the result that you provide, and send you people that aren't appropriate for your product or service. So, I love that you have that as part of your framework.
Tiago 32:46
Absolutely, otherwise it's going to be a bit more of a waste of your time, right? If the person sends you irrelevant, or unqualified prospects, so the ideal scenario is that if you describe exactly who you want, who you can help the best, right? If you position like that, look, I can help this kind of people that have these characteristics, the best and I can generate them the easiest, the fastest and smoothest transformations possible. Then you make them think about it, like, brainstorm together with the person. And you make sure that they will send you only like, ideal clients. That's that's really the goal. Yeah.
Pualena 33:21
Absolutely. I used to be in a networking group called BNI, and it was completely relationship and referral-based, right? And so part of the meeting was to go around and you have, you know, a minute or so to say, like, who do you know, who X, Y, Z, right? And it's like, you identify your perfect referral partner or your perfect referral client, and describe that to the group so that they can very intentionally connect you with people that might be a good fit. And I'm no longer in that group. But I always remember that as a really beautiful way to phrase it. Everybody started with you know, here's who I am, here's what I do. Who do you know, who might need a new website? Who do you know, who might be starting a new business and could use consulting on marketing, you know, whatever that looks like. But–
Tiago 34:12
That's a great lesson.
Pualena 34:14
It's so easy too. Like it doesn't have to be complicated. We don't have to, like, list out our ideal client avatar in 10 different ways, we can just very simply say, this is the person that I'm looking for right now.
Tiago 34:28
Absolutely. And get in the habit of doing that. I think that's something that we tend to forget if we don't have a system in place. We should really write down whatever we do every day, or we make a script for sale script and at the end like a referral, ask for a referral. Make sure that in every interaction we have with people you do the ask and you do the brainstorm about who else you can help. Not only interactions with clients, maybe also with your friends, with the networks, with the connections, get in the habit of doing that. What's the worst thing that can happen? Nothing, nothing. People say No, I don't know anyone. Okay, cool. You just kept going. And it really is a habit that you gain. And it's one of the most profitable habits that you can create in your life that I still don't do as much as I should. But I know that's the way. And it really works when you do.
Pualena 35:14
Absolutely. It's a muscle, right? And I think part of building a muscle is, I'm going to say, combating our fears, and its perceived fears that may or may not really exist. And what is the biggest fear that somebody could have in a conversation like that? Somebody says, No, somebody says, No, thank you to your program and no, thank you, I don't know anybody who I want to refer you to. Like, okay, next. We're going to be okay, we're gonna survive that no. And the more often we have those conversations, I think we'll either be super surprised at how helpful people are. And, you know, we'll surprise ourselves at how resilient we are. If we hear a no and we're like, Oh, that wasn't so bad. Alright, let's do this again. That was kind of fun.
Tiago 36:02
Exactly. And maybe that no is a temporary no. You know, maybe the person six months from now, a year from now will remember, Ah, Tiago helps exactly on this. And this person just told me he needs this help. You know, you never know. So, you never know. You just keep gaining that amount of muscle flexing the muscle, like you said, and doing it consistently, every single day. Unfortunately, that's the key for everything in business is doing consistently, something every day. Very boring. Miles Beckler, a guy that I follow one of my first mentors, he said that successful businesses are boring. So, because you find something that works, no, first of all, you do something consistently until it explodes. And then you find something that works, and you go double down on it and just keep doing what works and is that it's completely true. Of course, then you can be creative and do other things. Once you figure out something that's working in the great systems around it and make sure it's working on its own, then it can be creative. But until then, we always want, us as entrepreneurs, we're creative creatures, right? We always want new things, oh, this is fun, oh this is more fun. But we should limit it a bit, at least until we find something that works, and then create systems around it. And then have fun with other things, at least have to be more systematic in their approach.
Pualena 37:20
Absolutely. Let's talk about consistency because you have a couple of experiments that I read about. And it sounds like they really paid off, you did some content creation challenges. And I'd love for you to share sort of your what sparked that idea? And what was that experience like? What were the results like after that was done? And while you were going through it? Did you have any roadblocks or fears or aha moments?
Tiago 37:58
Yeah, absolutely. They came from Miles Beckler, one of my first mentors. The concept is like, do something for 90 days that you don't like to but you feel that is a necessary skill to gain until you become just good and forget about all your fears. And it's actually true. It's like, using brute force to get rid of limiting beliefs you have or to gain quickly a skill. It's an incredible approach. Because first of all, you commit to yourself and maybe to others around, you can tell your spouse, you can tell your friends look, for 90 days, I'm going to create a one piece of content. And no matter what, even if I go on holidays, even if I'm sick, you just commit yourself to do it. And I started doing a 90-day challenge on YouTube. Because I never felt that was a content creator. And I've always felt that I was… No, actually I started on my blog post. So, I started with my blog because I never felt that I was a writer or just a consumer of content. And I wanted to get rid of that limiting belief. Because I wanted to start the business that I'm doing now. Back in 2018, I was still at Google. I was working at Google when I started a blog. And I saw that the 90-Day Challenge, okay, let's do it. And it has multiple benefits. Because first of all, you start, you know, slowly deconstructing the belief that you have that you're not good at something. Of course, your first blog posts or videos, or whatever, are going to be horrible, you're going to hate them. But you're still going to publish it and forget about it and keep going for the next one. And you slowly start seeing that okay, this is getting easier now. I don't take three hours to create a blog post. Now it's this one and a half as you started getting the momentum, you see results because at some point, no matter where you are like if you're creating blog posts, you'll see the platform's giving you more eyeballs like Google will start exposing me for more people. More people will find my blog, you start seeing some results. Okay, this is cool. You position yourself as a content partner with those platforms, which benefits you as they expose you to more people. You start this by removing the idea that you're not good at something you gain a skill very quickly in a condensed space of time, instead of years, you can become prolific in a space of 90 days. And then after those 90 days, okay, I'm amazing. And I can write very well I know exactly what works better, how to make a good intro, how to make a great headline. Because only through the motion and through the action do things start happening. You get feedback from people that read it, or when you share it on social media. And yeah, it has multiple benefits. And then after that blog post, I made a video because I was very shy, I was very introverted. I couldn't I even hated public presentations or sales presentations in public. So yeah, I need I needed to destroy that belief. And I did a 90-day challenge on YouTube, which I afterward extended to 120 days, just because okay, just stretch a bit more and things were working and I was enjoying the process. And yeah, then nowadays, I'm super comfortable on camera, like I make lives. It's amazing how much magic you can create if you commit to something for a long enough period of time consistently, every single day. I was on holidays, I was sick, I was still okay, I need to shoot something today, no matter what, even if it's a short video, two minutes or one minute. Just shoot something because you'll feel the sense of accomplishment, you did something good that you progressed. And at the end of the end of the challenge, you'll have a huge library of content that you would never think you would ever create. And if they're like it's published, it's out in the world and you feel proud of it. And then it opens up so many opportunities, you start getting more traffic, people notice you more. The pieces of content I created before on my blog posts and on YouTube, still, nowadays, they bring still clients that find me, because I focused on search engines, right? YouTube, Google, instead of just creating reels on Instagram that disappear the next day. I focus on creating assets. So, yeah, multiple benefits that came from those challenges.
Pualena 42:05
Did you find that people started to expect that from you and look forward to it? And then when you stopped, did you get anybody asking, you know, where, where's my daily video?
Tiago 42:16
Yeah because I was also sharing with my email list. So, people notice that for sure. And then the one thing that I forgot to say is that, especially with the video, I was the first 30 videos, I was forcing myself to be something I was not. I was trying to be something, showing myself as an authority, someone bigger than I am now. And at some point someone commented on one of my videos saying Tiago, why are you using the, in Portuguese we have informal and formal way of saying you like Tu or Vocé. And I was using the formal way because I was, you knwo business or I have to talk formally to people. And someone asked me why are you using that? It's like so, so distant, you know, why are you doing that? And that made me think, man, what am I doing? I'm not being myself. And I'm not talking exactly to the persons that I want to be talking to. So, in the next video, I opened up and I said, Look, you, I'm talking to you right now. I started using the informal way, this is the kind of person I want to help. And this is how it's going to be from now on. And I slowly started finding my voice, started being my genuine me, bringing my best self to the video. And it was it from that point onwards that more opportunities started coming. Because the more you are yourself, you know, the more you are authentic, the best it is for when you're creating content, it really attracts much more people, it's easy for you because you're not forcing yourself to be something you're not. You can just bring your true self and then have fun. It was something amazing to happen.
Pualena 43:48
Absolutely, I love that. And what an interesting turning point that you may not have experienced if you didn't do that challenge.
Tiago 43:55
It would never. I mean, all would take me years, maybe?
Pualena 43:59
You might still be very formal, and inauthentic.
Tiago 44:03
In a suit and tie.
Pualena 44:04
No, you're very good on camera. And you're very personable. And I think it's helpful to get a glimpse of what it would be like to work with you, when seeing you you know on camera, on video. I'm wondering, did you ever miss a day?
Tiago 44:21
No, no those channels. If I missed the day, I would do it the next day, two posts you know, two videos to compensate for it. But it only happened like once or twice if I was on holidays and it was in my wife's country and I was sick some of those days. But I was, I felt bad if I didn't do it during that, ah, I missed it. Which really is like a challenge. It's a game. And it's–
Pualena 44:49
Right? 90 days is a long time. Like I think people get like it's so easy to opt in and be like I'm in 90 days let's do it or even 30 days or 7 days like, I think we, we get a very attracted to the idea of accomplishing, like what that'll look like at the end. And when we're, you know, a few days in we're like, oh my god, am I really doing this? Is this my life now? So, there's this challenge called 75 hard. Have you heard of it? It's sort of like a very intensive personal development transformation challenge, where you have a certain number of things that you have to check off your list every day, which is like, drinking a gallon of water, do two workouts, read a 10-pages in a book. It's insane. I think it's totally absurd. I did it once and I was like, so burned out by the end. And I don't think that these challenges are nearly that intense or crazy. But there is a point where you're like, I just want to throw in the towel for whatever reason, you're sick, you're traveling, you're not into it, you're not feeling motivated or inspired that day. And it's those days, when you do the thing that you look back and you're like, oh, my gosh, I feel so accomplished. I did something that was difficult. I did something that I didn't want to do that day, and look at what came from it. And I think those are the lessons are in the hard days. And the celebrations are in the easy days, right? It's like, there's definitely balance. But to hear that you've done two 90-plus-day challenges is really inspiring to me.
Tiago 46:32
And one on marketing as well. There's also daily emails for 90 days. So, of course, it was in separate occasions, right? It's not all at the same time. I gave myself a break. But you mentioned there's something that is super crucial for me the days where you didn't feel like doing it or you're almost on the brink of quitting. Two things that I think helped me and probably will help someone who tries to do it is to think, Okay, you're not just to remove yourself from the equation. You're not doing this for yourself. You're doing this to serve a specific set of clients that need your help, like you're here to serve people, and they need your help, they need you to be present, they need you. You never know which kind of content will resonate the most with them and make them change their perspective, the way of thinking, and ah, shit I should be doing this. I should talk to Tiago. I should do something about it. So, think about the clients who you're serving, you're here to serve. And I actually put a sheet of paper when I was doing it like I'm talking to Tiago or whoever it was. He's facing these issues and I need to solve all these problems. So, I'll talk about everything around everything that he is feeling in this bit in the business. And the other thing is to think of why you're doing this long term, right? What is your vision in three years? Where do you want to be, not just a number of like a revenue you want to achieve, but the life you want to obtain, the kind of life you want to live in the future? So, whenever you feel down or you feel like I don't feel like doing it, you think of those two things, and then you get inspired again. And then okay, I'll just do it. At the end of the two-minute video to solve a problem for my virtual client. I think those were very helpful for me.
Pualena 48:22
I love that. That's super inspiring. I am considering, I'm gonna say I’m just considering doing a similar challenge because I'm the same way like content creation, to me is a sticking point. And the more that we can practice actually doing the content creation in whatever form that might be video, writing, podcast. Exactly. It allows us to, I think the biggest takeaway is probably the confidence that we can. Right? It's like, we all have the ability, we think we might not be that good at it. We might be slow at it. Over time, those skills get sharpened. But it sounds like to me the biggest sort of result at the end was conquering that fear right? You said you didn't like speaking in front of people, you didn't like being on camera. Now look at you, right, I think that is a sustainable, long-lasting impact that something like this that can have its set of challenges makes it totally worth doing
Tiago 49:31
You gain a skill for life basically that's why so powerful. In a condensed period of time, okay, you might suffer a bit, you might hate the initial process. But if you just hold on to it for long enough and you finish the finish the 90 days, you're basically a new person. Exactly. I actually became a new person by this skill again of creating content not just for creating content, but also to create video courses. You know, it's very important for you to deliver your content, to have video calls with your clients. It's an important skill that I would need to gain, it probably would take me years to gain that confidence if I hadn't pushed myself in that way. So, in the was everything.
Pualena 50:09
And where would we be? We would have no Tiago in in the world. We wouldn't know who you are. I wouldn’t be talking to you today.
Tiago 50:18
Exactly. You wouldn't be talking to me today. But I think it's not only for for content creation, you can use it for anything that you feel there's a skill that you need to quickly gain. Then our copywriting, you know, right writing everyday, sales page, if you want to become good at it, or asking for referrals, if you're not good at asking for referrals, force yourself to at least once per day, talk to someone and ask for a referral. And then you'll gain that skill, you can never have it again that it's amazing. I think it's underrated, this kind of scale that you can create.
Pualena 50:52
Yes, for sure. Well, on that note, how can we be or how could I and this podcast, be a good referral source for you? And who, you know, let us know who to send you to, people who are listening, if they want to reach out if they are interested in learning more about what you do? What are the best ways for them to connect with you?
Tiago 51:14
Of course. So, I'm in the beginning stages of internationalizing my brand, I think you saw my website. But thank God, there's Google Chrome and you can Google Translate. Yeah, so you can you can go to TiagoFaria.pt, is for Portugal. You can look for me a bit there. Or you can even book a free call with me on the top right corner. If you want to have a brainstorm, just talk about what we discussed here. And, you know, I just love to meet new people in this area. Or you can just shoot me an email if you want to ask him a question and the comments at [email protected]. Yeah.
Pualena 51:49
Fantastic. I hope everyone takes you up on that because it is a joy to chat with you. You offer a phenomenal service. And so many people, I think just need just to sort of esentialize and do all of the things that you shared today. You know, use what you got, talk to people, ask for what you need. So, thank you for sharing that with our audience. And I look forward to staying in touch. You are amazing.
Tiago 52:21
Oh, thank you so much. Cool. It was a true true honor. I had so much fun. And I really hope someone takes something out of this talk that we had just implemented, right? It's the crucial thing is to take action, right? And maybe create a 90-day challenge or something and then and then let us know in the comments or shoot us some message or something.
Pualena 52:39
Yes, please let seriously if you're listening to this and you're like, Okay, I'm going to do a 90-day challenge. I'm going to implement something, let us know. We would love to hear what you took away from this. You can reach out to me on Instagram @RBL.media and I will pass the message along or directly to Tiago. Please feel free and thank you again for sharing with our audience. I am so grateful.
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In this week's episode, host Pua engages with Bridgitte Mallinson, a dynamic entrepreneur and founder of GutPersonal. Bridgitte shares her journey as a two-time founder, emphasizing the unconventional growth of her businesses, rooted in empowering women to achieve optimal health and wealth. Bridgitte's personal health challenges led her to discover the importance of gut health, prompting her to start GutPersonal and provide solutions through physical products and education.
The episode explores her unique approach to affiliate marketing, creating an affiliate experience that fosters a sense of family and shared mission. Bridgitte highlights the significance of setting daily intentions and the ripple effect of aligning with one's body and gut health. Bridgitte's story is a reminder to embrace imperfection, take messy action, and prioritize our health as the foundation for achieving our entrepreneurial dreams.
About Bridgitte Mallinson
Bridgitte Mallinson, MS, RDN, is the visionary founder and CEO of GutPersonal, a supplement company committed to eradicating gut issues permanently through personalized approaches. Overcoming her own lifelong struggle with gut health, Bridgitte brings over a decade of expertise as a registered functional dietitian, specializing in functional medicine and nutrition. Her mission goes beyond health, aiming to elevate the well-being and prosperity of both women and men.
GutPersonal stands out as not just female-founded but predominantly female-funded, reflecting Bridgitte's dedication to fostering a community where women excel. Leading a team of experienced clinicians, marketers, and operational experts, she embodies the spirit of women who strive for both professional success and a life they passionately love.
--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Bridgitte Mallinson | GutPersonal:
Website: gutpersonal.comInstagram: @gut.personalTikTok: @gutpersonalFacebook: GutPersonalPinterest: @gut_personalGut Health Quiz: gutpersonal.com--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
Putting yourself, exposing yourself to new audiences, I think is one of the biggest challenges that content creators in general, the people are out there they exist. How do we connect with them and show them where we are?
Pualena 00:17
We are live, here we go. Oh my gosh, I wish you guys could see this, Bridgitte is bringing the fire. I, you know, we just met like four minutes ago. And we're best friends. And I love it. And I don't even want to give you an introduction, I would just love for you to share with us who you are, what you do, what is GutPersonal. And I will share with you all I'm sure in due time, why I'm such a big fan.
Bridgitte 00:46
Oh my gosh, I love this so much. I feel like we are kindred spirits already we are having a partay. So yeah, I am a two-time founder. My first business I started during the pandemic. So, I'm a, what you'd say a newer entrepreneur, but have had a lot of success already. And I'm so excited to share that with your community. Because I feel like, you know, we all see people doing it in different ways. And like growing a business. And I've definitely grown it in an unconventional way, like, really organically and just being myself and sharing the vision. So, I'm really excited about that. I want to take you guys back to my health journey because really, both of my companies are rooted in supporting women to feel amazing in their body, and also through wealth. And that's kind of a side aspect. But I was a registered dietitian. And I always felt like there was something missing in my education, but really something missing in my body, I was going to all these different doctors and wasn't really getting answers. And I know a lot of women can relate to that. And men but mainly us women where we're not getting answers of what's going on in our body, whether it's our gut health or our hormones, or just mystery symptoms. And so I wasn't getting answers. And then I went into functional medicine. And functional medicine finally gave me this platform of understanding my body of it's, it's not like a disease, but there's something going wrong, right? Like, it's not labeled as this unconventional medicine. But there are things that are going on in my body that are causing thyroid issues, migraines, sleeplessness, constipation, bloating, like you name it, I had everything ADHD, like I couldn't focus at all. All of it was rooted in my gut health, poor gut health. And I did a poop test, which actually, we still do at GutPersonal we do poop testing, to figure out like, what was the root cause. And why I'm sharing this is because it was such a pain point for me, in my life, and of trying to figure out what was going on in my body and how I could feel my best. And so because I heal my body through this information that I got, heal my gut, I started my businesses on that. And I really, you know, have had this purpose and this passion of growing the business. Which is why when we started my first business, we hit seven figures, and it was a service-based business. So, course creation, group programming, and then one-on-one. We hit seven figures in 16 months. And basically being a solopreneur. Let's go, baby. Yes. And then I started GutPersonal out of this need of like, I wanted to help millions of women instead of just hundreds. And so and I wanted to do that with a physical product. One that I knew people were going to take, they would notice a really big difference. Of course, you've noticed that already with just taking your magnesium. So, we launched GutPersonal two years ago almost to the day.
Pualena 04:02
Amazing. Happy anniversary.
Bridgitte 04:04
Thank you. So, I've been in Yeah, a couple of different areas of business. And I just love it.
Pualena 04:10
Amazing, I love your story. So so much. And what really draws me to you even through our verbal or written communication over the last few weeks, is your energy. And I feel like that probably is who you are inside. And I would love to hear you know, as you were working through these physical challenges, did you feel like there was an energy that was like, you weren't able to tap into that because you were so exhausted and sort of feeling uncomfortable? Like, what was that like?
Bridgitte 04:42
Oh my gosh, yes. And this is honestly where I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who are trying to grow business but they feel like crap in their body. It's like, that is the foundation our health is the foundation of feeling amazing. And so for me, yeah, I was in grad school becoming, you know, I was already a dietitian, and I was expanding, you know, my education. And I couldn't like, kill it in other areas of life, like I could literally just survive and be in grad school. And that was kind of it. And it was after grad school where I was finally able to be like, alright, like, I need to put attention towards my health. When actuality when I was in grad school, I needed to have probably paused and said, like, oh, no, I need to focus on my health first. My health comes first, my health always comes first. And I think that's a lesson for entrepreneurs too, is like, your health, it needs to always come first because then your business will skyrocket. And so that's honestly a lot of people that we serve our entrepreneurs with GutPersonal. So yeah, it was, you know, and I think energy too, is like all about intention, right? Like, I am so jazzed for the most part on life, but I'm so jazzed about our mission and what we're doing in the world that like that shines through. And I think with growing both of my businesses, we've been able to grow so quickly, because people know that my energy is authentic, that my purpose and my passion for my business come through when I speak about it, whether it's on social media or a podcast, you know what I mean?
Pualena 06:23
Absolutely, I cannot agree more that like, for an entrepreneur who loves your business so much, and wants nothing more than for their clients to be happy and served and to, you know, shout their names from the rooftops, we often put our clients before ourselves, and then after that, we put our families before ourselves, and sometimes we put our clients before our families. That is, we have such a backwards way of looking at life as an entrepreneur, and it's nobody's fault. It's just sort of like the hustle that we agreed to, you know when we registered our business and decided, like, Oh, I'm not gonna work nine to five anymore, like, I'm gonna be free, and then you're just tethered to your work at all times. And I hear this a lot. And I've also experienced this, where there's just that, like, you can't shut it down. But also, you're not very efficient. And you're not actually getting a lot done. But you're just sitting there staring at your desk and tinkering around and feeling tired. And like, you're just busy all the time, but nothing's happening. Can you share a little bit about how like, just finding alignment within your body and your gut health and sort of your overall wellness can create a ripple effect to help us not to feel like that so much anymore?
Bridgitte 07:43
Yeah wow, that is so important. And I think it comes back to our intentions. You know, it's like setting intentions. And I think when we're busy, or we're in this hustle of like, entrepreneurship or just even life, right, like, I'm a new mom. And if it like, there's a lot going on, if I don't set a daily intention of how I want to feel, and actually I have my team do this, too. So, everyone can steal this hack. At the beginning of the day, I actually have my team tune into, how do they want to feel for that day? And what actions are they going to take? And that's what I do for myself. Because if we, if we don't set that intention, and we just like rollover from the like, day before, and let's say the day before, we felt scattered and busy and all these things, and then we move into the next day, not reflecting on that, and then setting an intention for the day, then it doesn't work, and then we're not leaving a really intentional life. So, I think it starts with intention setting and then tapping into the energy and the emotion of how you want to feel helps you be more productive. Because if I say, like, I should even pull up my slack right now and see what I said. But I think I said I wanted to feel present. And I wanted to feel, gosh, I think presence was a really big one for me today. And so if I have the intention of presence today, I'm not going to run through my day, like kind of what you said of like the blah. I think I also said I wanted to feel inspired. So, like right now sitting on this podcast with you. I'm like, How do I feel really present with you right now and then also feel inspired or inspiring? So, I really think it's setting intentions.
Pualena 09:33
Love that, I couldn't agree more. It's something that we, it's free. It's a tool that we have available to us every day and something that we can definitely tap into. And on that note too, I think. I mean, let's talk about like you have physical products. That help people with their gut health. I am a super fan. I have tried your magnesium. It is phenomenal. And yet, I really want to tap into this today, because I think it's so cool. So, speaking of thinking outside the box and being a rebel in what you do in your industry, and as an entrepreneur, you have physical products that are sort of, you know, supplements and health products. And your audience seems to be very much comprised of entrepreneurs and business owners and, you know, busy moms and people who tend to sort of forget about their own health and wellness until they meet you. And I'd love to hear sort of, you know, as somebody who has a product that every human could benefit from, how did you decide? Or how did this become your niche?
Bridgitte 10:45
Wait, can you come on to my marketing team? Because I feel like you just gave me a lot of clarity of like, wait a minute, I don't even think I ever have realized that in three years.
Pualena 10:54
I could be wrong.
Bridgitte 10:56
No, no, you are 1,000%, right. Which makes, I mean, people, if you're listening to this podcast, you've probably gained a lot of knowledge from you. Because sitting with this demographic for three years, I've never thought about it like that. So, thank you, I'll pay you in magnesium later. You know, it's funny, because I think, you know, from my story, it's like, you serve who you are. Right? And I think that in some ways I am that rebel. You know, I don't subscribe to typical marketing, you know, we've grown GutPersonal, let's just, you know, the physical product company, almost a $2 million without any ads. You know, we do it a lot through affiliate marketing, which is kind of unconventional, right? And, I mean, another unconventional thing that as a founder, like, I'm always tuning into my gut instinct. And so I think we have to have these people that we hire or that, you know, coaches or business coaches or, you know, like people that we learn from, but I think what's unconventional about me and where I am a rebel is I always take it through my own lens. I take it through my body, and like, how does that feel when someone says we should do it that way? You know what I mean? So, I think that that's a piece of the rebel entrepreneurship that I that I do. And that's been really successful for me. And I think we just speak to that person and their pain points of like, they are really busy. And they are, you know, health does come last some time. So, yeah, that's a revelation for me. Thank you.
Pualena 12:39
Yay, of course, that's awesome. And I think you do several things that are really innovative, and out of the box. One of them is your affiliate experience. And I say that, like most people have an affiliate program, you have an affiliate experience, where like, affiliates can sort of be these, like, external contacts that you give a link to, and then they share the link, and then they get the money, like, it's transactional. But I feel like for you, and for the gut, personal affiliates, you kind of bring them into your ecosystem, and they become a part of your team. I mean, you have calls all the time you have all of these resources and ways to support them. And I just the way that you do affiliates, Could you walk us through that? Because it's so epic?
Bridgitte 13:25
Oh, my gosh, Thank you.
Pualena 13:29
Absolutely, Thank you.
Bridgitte 13:31
So, like, you know, I've always thought about our customers and our affiliates. Well, let me take you back, actually. So, my first business, I ended up you know, I'm a dietician, and I was seeing one-on-one clients and had all the services. But then I went into business coaching, because I was having a really successful company, and a lot of other dieticians, were asking me, holy shit, how are you having, you know, my first month in business was $42,000. And my girlfriends who also went online at the same time, were like, Oh, my God, how did you do that? And so I started business coaching, and I've really loved it. And I do business coaching still. And it's a big passion of mine because I just want to see women win so much. And I think wealth creation is a way that we can win. It's a way that we can, gives us more freedom and decision-making and time. And so when I was creating GutPersonal I was like, my vision for this company is not only health for millions of women and their families to amplify that. It's also wealth. And so again, when I was creating GutPersonal, one of my intentions and it goes back to this is like one of my intentions is to create wealth for women. And so how do we do that? We build a bomb ass affiliate team, where they come in, they feel like they're part of our family, and that they can also be a part of it in, in growing wealth. And, you know, we actually decided to take on female investors as well, which just speaks to that mission of creating wealth for women. So, I think when I was building the affiliate program, and when we build it now, we have 250 affiliates who, you know, I think of all of them as an extension of our brand. And I, it's funny, because I’ll voice notes, some of them, and they'll be like, Oh, my God, I cannot believe your voice noting me. And it's like girlfriend, you are a part of this team. And so I think, if anyone has an affiliate program, it's like, set those people up for success. So, if I'm gonna have a call with my team about a launch plan, I should probably have a call with our affiliates on a launch plan. So, it's clear communication. Yeah, that's how we kind of do it.
Pualena 16:00
I love that. And the thing too, like, we work with a lot of course creators who have amazing courses, and they're like, you know, I have guest teachers, and I've given them an affiliate link, and they don't share it, what's going on. And I think people, you know, we can't expect other people to love our business as much as we do, unless we bring them into the fold and give them all of the tools so that they can fall in love with it, right? Otherwise, you're just another business where they have a link, and they're not going to share it. Because why would they? Right? So, I think that's really beautiful to actually like, treat them like part of your team. And even more importantly, I think for you, they become part of this beautiful family, where not only are they inspired to share because they get like, you know, commission or whatever. But it's like, how can you not share? That's how we want affiliates. That's how we get affiliates to win. Right? That's it's a win-win. Affiliate is Win-Win, always. So, you do a great job.
Bridgitte 17:04
I love that. And I think especially with course creators, I think what goes wrong with the affiliate program are probably two things. One, they're not giving enough commission, you know if you are really working on scaling your course, and this is your zone of genius, so don't let me speak to it too much.
Pualena 17:21
No, go for it!
Bridgitte 17:22
But like, when you're working on a scalable, let's say it's an evergreen course, and you're giving someone 10%, they're, you know, maybe they're getting $20 per sale if it's something that's super scalable, that you don't have to put a lot of one-on-one time and give them 50 - 40, 50% of the sale, which you are like, Yas, Queen. That's like a huge mistake I see most course creators do. And then also, they're not thinking it of it when they're creating their launch plan. I think affiliate marketing sometimes can take an afterthought. And so for me and my team, it's always like an aspect of the launch. So, you know, we're going through, okay, what's our email marketing? What's our social media marketing? What's our affiliate marketing strategy? So, making sure you're bringing it more to the forefront? And that you also have someone on your team, whether it's you as the founder, or if it's your director of marketing, or, you know, now we just hired a director of partnerships, because it's scaling so big is that they're focused on affiliate marketing in the service. So yeah, that's what I would say about that.
Pualena 18:39
Beautiful, again, they're part of the team. They're part of the family. They're part of the communication. And, you know, the way that you guys communicate with your affiliates, you communicate often, and you offer a lot of opportunity to connect, which I think is another it's a community that in and of itself. Beautiful. I love that. Let's talk about and you said that you did a little bit of course creation, right? Is that in on the business coaching side, or the GutPersonal side?
Bridgitte 19:13
GutPersonal. So, we do have courses and our most successful course has always been a part of our group program. So, our group program I launched three years ago, I mean three and a half at this point. It's like dating. I'm like, I'm in the early entrepreneur, and I'm like, Oh, my God, three and a half years ago. So, that's been our most successful course launch. To be honest, you know, I could learn a lot from you on launching courses in and of themselves. What I've, you know, my first business what I was really great at is launching one-on-one coaching and high ticket and now of course, the supplements have scaled. But I think there's always the area of opportunity, especially with the courses where there's so much you could do. And, you know, people, and I'm sure people who work with you are scaling courses to be, you know, six figures, multi-six figures, and millions of dollars a year and we haven't gotten our courses to that. I think it comes back to like, focus. You know what I mean? We haven't really focused on that. So, where your energy goes, oh, gosh, I'm gonna butcher this.
Pualena 20:22
I love this quote.
Bridgitte 20:24
What is it? Can you say it? I always butcher it.
Pualena 20:27
I'm scared. Where energy go?
Bridgitte 20:31
I got it. I got it.
Pualena 20:33
Where– you got it. Okay, do it.
Bridgitte 20:35
I got it. Where intention goes, energy flows. Boom baby.
Pualena 20:38
There it is.
Bridgitte 20:42
I screwed that up on a stage in front of 1000 people once and I was like, Yeah, that was pretty good.
Pualena 20:48
You know what, I love it. It's when speakers are not showing their human side, it makes me really uncomfortable. So, good job.
Bridgitte 20:57
So, we haven't intended to like really grow that part of our business. But yeah, the one that's part of our group program like does really well. And it's kind of our bread and butter.
Pualena 21:09
Awesome. I, you know, courses have limitless potential. And I think that's part of the overwhelm of what keeps people from really focusing on him because they can serve so many purposes. And for what you do and how much you focus on intention. It sounds like the course is serving. It's providing the service that it needs to provide at this moment. And if there's, you know, the intention to serve a specific part of your business in a new way, you know, next year or being able to put that course in front of a new audience, like you always have that at your disposal. But it sounds like it's a success, whether it's, you know, seven figures or four figures, it doesn't really matter. It's more of if it's given results and changed people's lives, right?
Bridgitte 21:57
Yeah, absolutely. It's beautiful.
Pualena 22:01
I love that. And I love that you, again, like a lot of there are so many supplement companies and health and wellness products, and companies that strictly focus on promoting the products. Yeah, the products are probably great. They're probably, I think that there are a lot of companies out there that put a lot of great intention into their products. But less people and less founders and business owners focus on education. And that to me, like, I can be coerced by an ad to buy something and take it because I think it's going to be good for me and like, cross my fingers hope for the best and not really know if it's working. If we're armed with education, we can then make decisions that feel like they're actually intentionally solving challenges or, you know, enhancing our life. How have you found that piece of your business to benefit your clients?
Bridgitte 23:00
Oh, my God, this is so good. We really come from a place of empowerment. And I always think about not only what's going to sell, right, because we're growing a business, you know, I have huge goals for selling the business for $300 million. Yes, to show other women that we frickin can do this unconventionally. So, when I'm thinking of, how do we grow the business, it's not only okay, how do we grow, you know, our revenue, but then how do we grow our impact? And people have to feel I believe, in the health space or any space empowered to make a decision. And so we come, we support them in their journey of empowerment through education, of saying, you know, I think a big pain point that our audience has is that they think they have food sensitivities, and that foods are causing problems for them. And that's actually not the case. Even though if you ingest a food, let's use gluten, for example. If you ingest gluten, and it gives you a reaction, that's actually not the gluten that's causing the reaction, your gut is a mess if you're sensitive to foods, and so a piece that we are continually educating on I was literally talking to someone in the DM’s today who was like, I think I need a food sensitivity test. I was like you actually don't. And you need a poop test because the poop test is then going to tell you what’s going on in your gut. And so we educate through the DM’s like in one-on-one education, we educate you know, through social media, and then we also host you know, free master classes, and then we do have a membership where, you know, people can come more into our community. My golden retriever is trying to protect me right now. He's growling.
Pualena 24:58
I heard poop Yeah.
Bridgitte 25:00
Yeah, he’s like what the hell? That they can educate, get educated with us in many different ways. And we do a weekly live and you know, some things I hear from entrepreneurs is that like, oh, that's dead. You know, like, for example, like lives are dead, don't do lives anymore or masterclasses are dead don't do that. We're not really concerned with what's always with what's working, what's not in terms of education, we're just continually asking ourselves, like, how can we educate more? If that makes sense?
Pualena 25:34
Definitely. Well, I find to like, you know, everybody says Facebook groups are dead. But I'm in a bunch of Facebook groups that are very much alive. And I think it's less about the platform and more about the community and the content. And if you are, like, I will go wherever you are, if you're on YouTube, I'll put YouTube on my phone, just to find your content, like it's putting yourself, exposing yourself to new audiences, I think is one of the biggest challenges that content creators in general, the people are out there. They exist. How do we connect with them and show them where we are?
Bridgitte 26:11
Oh my god, I am like this whole time, I'm like writing notes over here, like, that is exactly how I feel, but I'm not a marketer by trade. You know what I mean? I'm a founder. I'm that visionary. And I feel like the way you're just putting things down, I'm like, yes. Okay. Tell me. which podcasts of yours to listen to? Because you're so good at this.
Pualena 26:34
Oh, yay. Oh, I'm glad it's helpful. I don't know. I just, love good energy. I love people who do cool things. So, it's easy to just, I don't know, shoot ideas around and talk about it. You have great energy too, which is, I think part of what has built your business. Yes, your product is phenomenal. Yes, you are very knowledgeable. And you attract people who want to be in your energy. And I think that's part of your content strategy as well, whether it's on paper or not like you being in front of people, and being part of the education process is probably a huge part of why you succeed.
Bridgitte 27:13
Yeah. Thank you for the reminder. Yay.
Pualena 27:20
Yeah, that's awesome. So, as a founder, a visionary, a content creator, a product developer, a fierce and badass woman with huge goals and have a mission to change the world. What would you tell somebody who's like, Man, I have this idea. I've been thinking about it for a while. I don't know how to do it. I feel like I'm ready. What do we do? Like? What's the first step? What do you tell that person?
Bridgitte 27:52
The first step is to take the step, you know what I mean? I think, like, just taking that first step, and celebrating wins, right? When you take the small step, when you take that action, you have to celebrate yourself, you have to be proud of yourself, because then that attracts really good energy. And I was actually on a call with someone today. So, like I was saying earlier, I do business coaching still. And it's not something that I put out there a lot. But I was on an intensive session with someone. And I was talking to her about being proud of herself. And just releasing the things that feel heavy, and attracting the things that feel light. So, for example, in her business, she's a visionary, and she was doing all the operations. And so I asked her, I was like, Okay, before our next session, I want you to write down what feels heavy and what feels light in your business. And a lot of the times for us visionaries or founders, what feels really heavy is the how, and that's something I have never allowed myself to feel weighed down by. So, we hire people for the how, whether we need a business coach or someone to help us think through the how, or we hire someone in operations, whether it's a VA or an OBM. But what trips a lot of people up is like, Okay, I need a business now, how do I create an LLC? Like girlfriend, just start making money, like just get started doing what feels good. Like start putting your services out there on Instagram, like, you know, or like maybe you're a content creator or you're an entrepreneur and you're scared to make a real like start on stories or take one of your stories and make it as a real and I think was always helped me as well as just messy action. Just take the action. It's not going to be perfect. act. But perfection is something that we will never achieve. So, why strive for it?
Pualena 30:05
Amen. I love that, you know, my favorite exercise and sort of thing to tell people to do if they're feeling uninspired or nervous or scared, is find your favorite content creator, somebody that you aspire to be like, or that you really appreciate their work. And go back as far as you can on their platform. If it’s Youtuve, go all the way to their first video and watch it, you will feel so much better about where you're at and what you're about to create. Because it's part of their journey, that janky video, got them to the 4 million followers they have today. Without that video, they would not be in front of you. So yeah, messy action.
Bridgitte 30:48
God, I’m gonna do that. I'm gonna go through my old videos, so I can feel inspired.
Pualena 30:52
Right? Yeah, that’s like, Oh, I remember doing that. It's really funny, too. Because sometimes, in the moment, you're like, God, this is so terrible. But here we go. And two years later, you look at it, and you're like, hey, that’s not that bad. Tha’s pretty good.
Bridgitte 31:07
Literally, yes, absolutely. I love that so much.
Pualena 31:13
Oh, amazing. Well, I know that we are coming up on time. And I honestly could keep you forever. Like, if you don't have to leave, please don't. But I want to make sure that we are able to talk about, you know, what inspires you, what's next for you? And how can people join that movement and join you on that journey?
Bridgitte 31:37
Yeah. So, what's next for us in me is, you know, like I said, I'm a new mom, my daughter is three and a half months is being in this season of this and that, of I can be a very successful entrepreneur, and I can be a mom and I can be a great wife. And I can be a great friend, like I can be all those things and just learning you know, learning about myself as an entrepreneur and learning about myself as a mom and editing as I go. And we're going to the, we’re skyrocketing with GutPersonal, you know, we have five incredible women on my team that I just love, and I love, you know, growing the business with them. And, you know, I really hope that like next year, we've tripled the amount of people we've helped, we've helped 5,000 women already. And that numbers really important to me, because as I shared with you, like my mission is to help a million women in their families feel better in their body. And so yeah, I'm hoping we triple that for next year. And if anyone wants to try our products, we have a discount code for your community. It's RBL10. And you just go to guypersonal.com/rbl10. And
Pualena 32:50
I think it's RBL10
Bridgitte 32:54
As in RBL. Sorry, I'm so sorry. RBL10.
Pualena 32:57
That’s awesome. Thank you I'm stoked.
Bridgitte 33:01
See guys the action on like, oh, I can't even read what your podcast is. RBL 10, make sure you go to gutpersonal.com. If you're feeling not so great in your body, we have a great quiz. That is awesome. I know your favorite product is our magnesium.
Pualena 33:19
It is. Oh my gosh. I like I promise you Bridgitte did not pay me to say that. This is my favorite magnesium of all time. And I have tried all the magnesium’s. Like if you're caught like high-cal magnesium. I'm so sorry. But if you are a cal-magnesium person, you should try this and you'll never go back. It's so tasty. It is really like it's a delight to drink. You don't have to be like, Okay, here's my magnesium and like force it down. It is really enjoyable.
Bridgitte 33:53
So glad. That's the goal. That is the goal.
Pualena 33:57
Oh, amazing. Well, I'm so grateful to be connected with you. How can I support you?
Bridgitte 34:04
Oh, my God. I mean, keep taking the magnesium girlfriend, share about the mission. And yeah, I'd love to have you in our family more, affiliate family.
Pualena 34:15
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for inspiring people. I love this and that. I wrote that down. It's like, I wrote it on my desk with my marker. Because I think we often think that we have to be one or the other and we can't have it all and we can't be both or everything. And this is a beautiful testament to your mission. Allowing people especially women who love to serve everybody but themselves that we can practice self-care, we can heal our bodies. We can do all of these things to keep ourselves functioning and happy and feeling really good. And also be there for our families, serve our kids not serve our kids. I hate saying that because then I feel like anyway you get what I'm saying, but yeah, we serve. We serve people around us from a place of love. And we want to make sure that it's truly from a place of love and not from a place of black. Right?
Bridgitte 35:11
Yeah, I think that the, you can have it all, is something that I tell you know, my clients all the time. It's something that I that I preached so yeah, I loved that. And I love this conversation and we could go on and on. So, if anyone has any questions, we can do a part two.
Pualena 35:26
Oh, my gosh, it's happening. I'm just gonna send you the link as soon as we're off. Again, you're phenomenal. And we will chat again soon.
Bridgitte 35:36
Sounds good. Thanks.
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In this episode, Pualena and Dr. Anjali Agrawal explore her unique role as a non-cracking chiropractor, emphasizing gentle adjustments, functional nutrition, and ergonomic insights for holistic health. Dr. Agrawal shares her transformative journey into chiropractic care, recounting a pivotal moment that redirected her career path. From being an audible junkie to embracing low-force techniques, she highlights the effectiveness of these adjustments for long-lasting results.
The conversation delves into the significance of addressing physical, nutritional, and chemical stressors for resilience and preventing strain accumulation. Dr. Agrawal's insights extend to nutritional support, dispelling myths about pregnancy, and her comprehensive workplace wellness course, challenging common health misconceptions. Pualena expresses awe at Dr. Agrawal's approach, referring to her as the answer for those seeking ways to feel better, move better, and enhance longevity. Dr. Agrawal's holistic approach integrates movement, nutrition, and lifestyle choices, providing a valuable perspective on optimal well-being.
About Dr. Anjali Agrawal
Dr. Anjali Agrawal is a holistic healthcare practitioner, combining chiropractic and nutrition to specialize in pediatric and women's health. With a background in Biochemistry/Cell Biology from UCSD and a Doctor of Chiropractic from Palmer College, she is certified in Internal Health and the Webster Technique. Her approach integrates gentle hands-on techniques, physiotherapy, and nutritional supplements.
Dr. Agrawal discovered chiropractic's holistic benefits during a summer job, where a chiropractic adjustment miraculously cured her cold. This personal experience led her to pursue a chiropractic career, fueled by a passion for family health, fertility, and comprehensive prenatal and postnatal care. She is dedicated to providing a whole-body approach, offering her expertise in chiropractic, nutrition, digestive health, and allergy relief/neurological stress reduction therapy.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Dr. D.D. Palmer: library.palmer.edu/ddpalmer--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Dr. Anjali Agrawal | Back In Balance:
Website: backinbalancehealth.comYoutube: @Dr.AnjaliAgrawalLinkedin: Dr. Anjali AgrawalEmail: [email protected]--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
So, I'm just sitting here, I'm like, please let everybody in the planet learn about this woman, you are really the answer to every humans out there Googling, how do I feel better? How do I eat? How should I move? Like, how do I create longevity for myself? And you are the answer.
Pualena 00:31
Okay, well, we are live. I am here with Dr. Anjali. I am thrilled and so excited. I did a little bit of research on you beforehand. And I absolutely love what you do, how you, the framework that you provide your services around is really fascinating. And so I will let you introduce yourself and just share, I wish you guys could see her setup. I'm looking at a lot of spines and skeletons and amazing, really interesting things. And so you guys can just close your eyes and imagine that as you listen to her introduce herself. But please share with us who you are, what you do and how you got here.
Anjali 01:13
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. First of all, I am Dr. Anjali Agrawal, I am a non-cracking non-popping chiropractor, helping families make more empowered decisions regarding their health and wellness from their journey, from conception to adulthood. And I utilize gentle chiropractic adjustments, I integrate functional nutrition, and some interesting testing modalities and my background in corporate ergonomics to help come up with recommendations that are individualized to each person.
Pualena 01:50
Beautiful beautiful, please go on. I'm sorry, today.
Anjali 01:54
Oh, no, I was just gonna say I, I got into it. Because while I wanted to go into healthcare, you know, as many kids say, they want to be doctors and I stuck with that. But I didn't know what my options looked like outside of the traditional medical model of being a doctor and I pursued the volunteer opportunity at Stanford Hospital throughout high school just to explore what that looked like. And while I knew I still wanted to pursue healthcare, I was a little disheartened by the fact that I felt like those were my only options. And so luckily, I came across the chiropractic world after I was enrolled as pre-med, and came to look for a summer job really, and found an office that needed Front Desk support for the summer. And so, I started working at a chiropractic office. And that whole experience was really the pivot for my healthcare journey.
Pualena 02:59
Interesting, I cannot wait to dig into this. What. So, you know, when you were looking at the different facets of health care, and we, as you said, you know, as kids, you're like, I want to be a doctor, I want to help people, I want to heal people, which I'm sure after knowing you, I mean, we just met but I, you seemed just very, like empathetic and compassionate. And so I imagine being able to help and heal people was probably part of your motivation. And I'm so curious, what about the chiropractic field drew you in versus what you saw in the medical field?
Anjali 03:37
Well, it was a few different things. What I really liked about the chiropractic approach was that you were working on the whole body, right? And so whether or not someone came in, with a specific complaint, which is typically what happens when we say, well, I have low back pain, or I'm getting a headache, or my elbow hurts, whatever that might be, we tend to have a very focused complaint that we're coming in with, or that seems to be calling our attention. And what I really liked about chiropractic was that, at least what my training was, and how I practice today is that when someone comes in, we still look at the whole spine, because everything is connected. Like if you remember the story, the song as a kid, you know, the hip bone is connected to the knee bone and all of that. And it's true, right? Everything is connected inside our bodies. And so the idea was that just because you have a specific complaint, it doesn't actually mean that the source of that complaint is from the area where you feel it, right? So, I often give headaches as an example because almost everybody has experienced a headache at some point in time. And with headaches. You know, it could be a variety of reasons, right? Like, it could be that you're dehydrated. It could be that you sat in front of the computer too long or maybe you slept funny on your neck. It could be that you're stressed out about a deadline at work or something happening in your home life. So, that really ties into the philosophy behind misalignments in general, which the founder of chiropractic, Dr. DD Palmer said that it's based on thoughts, traumas or toxins, right? And we often think of pain as being, we think of musculoskeletal pain as being a musculoskeletal cause. But if we go back to the headaches example, it really could be any one of those three types of stress. And that's what's really exciting to me because no two bodies are the same. But no two presentations for the same body are the same either. So, somebody could come in one week and say they have headaches and then a couple of months later, say like, oh, I injured myself, and now I have low back pain. Which is, yes, there might be a musculoskeletal component to it. But I get to investigate further and identify, well, what are your eating habits like? What is your digestion like? What is your mental stress level like? What is your work setup like? Do you sit in front of a laptop? Do have external equipment? So, we get to dig in from a much broader perspective, to really make the changes for that person, that would be most relevant for them, right? So, rather than feeling like you have to make all of these changes to your life, which may or may not be realistic for you, or doable on a long-term basis. But if we can narrow that down and say, here are three things that you can change, for you to give you the most impact, to improve your health and well-being, then that makes it a lot more doable for and motivating for that person to carry forward with those recommendations first, and then we can work on the other aspects as we go along.
Pualena 06:54
Oh, my gosh, I love this so much. You're like so, one of my really good friends is a chiropractor here. And she was telling me, you know, what she does, but her sort of framework is and mindset is, and I was like, Oh my gosh, you are like the digital strategist for the human body. Because like alignment, or lack thereof, can affect all these other things that we don't think are connected, right? It's like, I love that and actually love, like, you are really motivated to find the root cause, like a true root cause rather than sort of fixing the localized pain, or what we assume to be the source of what our discomfort is coming from, right? Amazing, oh my gosh.
Anjali 07:45
I like that, the digital strategist for the human body. I need to use that.
Pualena 07:48
It’s almost like, you know what alignment, alignment is key. Alignment in your brand. Yeah, I love it. Amazing. Um, so I do want to get into I think everybody listening is like, tell me how to sit properly because I am a digital entrepreneur, and I am at my computer way too often. And like, we're all aware, we're here, right? We're like, I need to get up and move. I need to get up and adjust my eyes, let my body relax, but sometimes we don't. More often they're not, unfortunately. And I, there was one other question and I was like, Pua don't forget, and it'll come back to me. But let's talk about that. Because I know that is something that you focus on, right?
Anjali 08:32
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Well, the reality is that we weren't designed to sit or stand for long stretches of time, right? So, when standing desks started becoming more prevalent, people got really excited because they, you know, sitting was the new smoking was kind of the saying that was going around, and standing is great as well. But we weren't designed to stand in one place for hours a day. So, what tends to happen for people is that when they are sitting, they tend to slouch because, you know, we can only hold ourselves upright for so long, before we start slouching in front of the computer. And then when people stand for long stretches of time, they'll load one hip, like, they'll stand more on one leg versus the other, or they'll kind of lean forward on their desk just to take some of the pressure off. So, what I encourage people to do is rather than thinking of sitting up straight or standing straight, because that tends to put us in a very rigid posture, right? We get really braced for sitting up or standing up. Yeah. And that's really tough to do. And that's not actually good for us because you're actually contracting the muscles to maintain this seemingly unnatural posture. So, what I encourage people to do instead is simply think of taking taking a deep breath every hour. So, in order to take a deep breath, we naturally will bring our shoulders back we'll relax our arms will kind of expand our chest and letter head settle into a good position. So, don't think about sitting or standing straight, just think about taking a deep breath. And that automatically will put you into a more relaxed neutral position. Regardless of what your posture is, right? You could do the sitting, standing, moving around, like, you don't have any parameters to limit you with this exercise.
Pualena 10:24
Oh, my gosh. So, it's funny, because a lot of times if we're, if I'm talking to somebody who's sort of movement based, or they give us some kind of protocol, like, if you're driving don't do this. This is even good when you're driving. Right?
Anjali 10:35
Exactly, especially when you are driving because you're stuck in traffic, probably.
Pualena 10:40
Oh, my gosh, I love that I am such a, I'm guilty of having a standing desk and then like, beating myself up for not standing at it enough. And I have this like, balance board thing under the desk. Is that, is that a good idea? Or bad idea?
Anjali 10:58
That’s great, yeah. Because the balance board encourages your core to be involved. And it encourages movement, right? So, you're not really in a static posture then. So, yeah, I do want me to go into tips for?
Pualena 11:10
If you're willing to, don't give us all your secrets if you don't want to, but if you want, we are here.
Anjali 11:18
Well, some of the basic things. So, the idea behind taking a deep breath every hour is kind of based on the concept of muscle memory patterns. And so muscle memory usually starts to kick in after about 45 to 90 minutes of a static posture, right? So, if you continue sitting for a couple of hours, if you continue standing for a couple of hours, if you're even if you're walking around and moving for a couple of hours, if you're kind of in that same posture, right, if you're running a marathon or going for a long hike or something like that, your muscles will start to adapt to that to that movement or to that posture. And so the idea behind or the benefit to sit/stand desk is really that you could continue working in a different posture, right? So, if you've been sitting, even if you stand up for a few minutes, and then sit back down, you can continue working without having to take a break in that sense. But ideally, if you could actually take a break every hour when you take your deep breath, if you could change your posture, and do a stretch, that would be amazing, because then you're not just getting the movement, but you're actually elongating the bustles by doing a stretch, and then returning back to your activity. So, what I like to encourage people to do is take a one-minute break, or maybe a two-minute break, take a deep breath, change your posture or do a stretch, and then return back to your movement. With the idea being that you could effectively accomplish a lot more by the sets of better biomechanics in less than 15 minutes a day, as compared to trying to allocate 30 to 60 minutes to do a full-on yoga session. So, not to say that yoga is not helpful, because I think it's amazing. But I think people often get stuck into this mindset of thinking that I can sit for eight hours a day, and then it's okay, I'm just going to work out for an hour or I'm going to stretch for half an hour an hour. And then I should be good. But the reality is that it's really hard to undo and practically impossible, I'd say to undo 6 to 10 hours of anything with an hour or something else, right? Like, just mathematically that doesn't work out that way. So, if you could give the micro brakes to your body, you will actually retrain those muscles to maintain a more neutral posture. So, that you don't go into muscle fatigue. And then we don't start to get to that slouched or lady-over position, because your muscles don't get as fatigued.
Pualena 14:03
You are changing lives. I mean, if we think about it, too, right? It's the like, gut reaction that I got when you were like, you know, take a break every hour, one or two minutes. And I was like, but what if I can't, you know, it's like, I'm in the flow, I'm not going to take a break. And that is crazy talk. Because you're literally if I'm sitting even at an 8 or a 10 hour day, that's 8 or 10 times you're gonna rest. Like it's not crazy. We're not asking people to do something super insane. And it's, you know, as easy as a deep breath, standing up walking around, right? And I think it's so important for us to like, reconnect with the fact that we are humans. And the work that we're doing is not more important than our own wellness. Right. No matter what you get up to, right? Yeah. Totally. I really appreciate, and I love really just sort of small and approachable protocols that allow us to just implement right away without, you know, I'm gonna plan, I have to plan ahead of time to like, start doing this thing. And I'm going to start on Monday, it's like no, just start now get up, if you haven't gotten up for a couple of hours, like, take a deep breath, and get back to it. Oh, my gosh, amazing. Thank you. We will share more about the course that you have because I'm sure you have tons and tons of tips and strategies for people to literally create more alignment for themselves. And I imagine when we align our bodies, everything around us the things we're working on our relationships, our family life, all of that. Do you see a trend where that sort of tends to also shift back into place for people?
Anjali 15:50
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of energy to be in pain or be a discount for right, whether or not it's severe pain or not, even if you have a mild headache, I think sometimes that's even more draining than having something big happening because you're just getting this nagging sensation in the back of your head for as much as you can focus on it. And so I think that, from what I've seen, and one of the big reasons that I really enjoy integrating the nutrition work along with the adjustments is that because the structure and function are connected, right, the nerves are going to every part of our body, whether it's an organ, or a muscle, or our skin, which is an organ, but you know, it's going to every part of our body. And so you cannot separate it, to say that this is just going to a muscle and it's not impacting another part of how my body is functioning, or another system in my body is not just the musculoskeletal system involved. And so what I think people often don't think about is that, let's say you are getting low back pain. Yes, it's certainly possible that it's a musculoskeletal issue. And maybe we need to get your back back into alignment or the ability to work on the muscles and do some soft tissue work. But it's also where your kidneys and adrenal glands are located. So, are you drinking enough water? Are you taking care of your body in that capacity, and kind of going back to the three types of stress whether it's thoughts, traumas or toxins? When we address the physical trauma is how Dr. Palmer identified physical or structural stress. And when we identify toxins, which is how we identified nutritional or chemical stress, then you tend to have a lot more bandwidth to handle the mental and emotional stress, which sometimes people don't have as much control to make as dramatic changes with right? So, you might have work stress or home stress. And it may not be in your immediate capacity to change jobs, or to do something differently about your home life. But you certainly can do something differently about what the physical alignment of your nervous system is like, you can do something to improve the digestion in your body, to absorb the nutrients better, to make better choices in terms of the foods that you're eating. So, that it allows your body to absorb the nutrients in a more effective and optimal way. So, we can make those changes to give you the bigger reserve to handle your day-to-day life in a more adaptable way. So, that you're not just running on fumes all the time, right? So, you have more reserves. It's kind of like how so many kids can bounce back so quickly from many things, right? They may not sleep great one night, but the second night there. Or the next day, even they're kind of they figure it out, they're back to normal, seemingly normal, or they might not eat something that's great for them, but they can bounce back from it. So, likewise, it's my goal to give adults that bandwidth to bounce back from these day-to-day stressors as well, so that it doesn't accumulate and create more, more of a drain on their systems.
Pualena 19:15
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think we don't realize what we take on sometimes, right? We're pretty resilient beings. And we abuse our bodies quite a bit. And yet, we're all here, right? And so it's sort of creating awareness around those things and protocols for solutions and things that we have no idea about, which is why you're here.
Anjali 19:44
Well, yeah, that's the interesting thing is that we only feel about 10% of what's happening in our bodies, right? So, we don't feel all of the chemical reactions that are happening beneath the surface. So, I give the analogy of an iceberg, right, because you only see the tip of an iceberg, you don't see the bulk, the massive iceberg that's beneath the surface. And similarly, in our bodies, we don't feel our body taking calcium from our bones or teeth and giving it to our blood. Like, we just don't know what's happening. So, when people ask us how we're feeling, we actually give them very skewed response to that question, because we just don't know. And so, if we ignore the indicators that are coming up on the dashboard to say, like, Hey, this is feeling a little achy, or, you know, I feel like I just need to cross my legs, because it's just become a habit to do so. Or I'm just feeling tired. If we don't pay attention to that queue, and we just push past it, or we somehow deal with it, right? Either you drink some coffee or you decide you're going to stretch a little bit, but you don't actually address the cause of the issue, then you continue putting more stress on the body that you're supporting it. And the challenge is that people often equate age, with their symptoms in the sense that like, like, you know, like–
Pualena 21:07
Oh, I’m just getting older, that's why I’m sore.
Anjali 21:10
Yes, exactly. Like, and age is certainly a factor, I won't discount it entirely. But working with so many kids I work with even newborns who are dealing with challenges of their bodies. But even if we talk about older kids, like teenagers who are dealing with challenges, and then I have people in their 80s, who I aspire to be like one day because they're doing so amazingly well, in their bodies and their overall health. So, age is a factor, but it's not the only factor. But I think the reason age becomes a factor is again, because we just continue stressing our bodies more than we support it. And our bodies will adapt to a degree and compensate to a degree, but then it reaches a threshold for where it says, Okay, I can't keep going at this rate, we need to do something. And if you don't pay attention to that whisper or those initial signals, unfortunately, we don't have a dashboard in our bodies like we do in our cars. But if we don't pay attention to that, then that has to accumulate, or that has to manage and take resources from other directions, other systems in order to continue pushing forward. But either the symptom gets worse, and/or you start to get more symptoms, and then you just have to figure out what your threshold is for what you can tolerate before you decide you're going to do something different about it. So…
Pualena 22:36
Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if we had a dashboard? It's like, I feel we used to have a dashboard that we all were like really keyed into. And over time, it's like society and stresses of life to sort of teach us to turn it off. Right. Like our intuition. Amazing. So, I would love to get into the nutrition side of what you do as well. But first, I want to touch on a part of your catchphrase, subtitle, whatever you want to call it. The non-cracking part of being a chiropractor that is so fascinating to me, please share.
Anjali 23:20
Well, yeah, when I was in school for chiropractic school, I was an audible junkie in the sense that I really felt I truly believed that the adjustment did not take place unless I could hear the movement happen, or the hearing that release happen. And we were taught, you know, our professors would tell us that it's really not about the sound, it's about the movement. And I didn't really believe them. And I started in practice, over 16 years ago. And when I, within my first year of practice, the chiropractor who I was an associate for, she had learned a different technique for adjusting the low back and pelvis, which didn't involve the traditional being on your side. Many people call it kind of the pretzel loop, because you're on your side and then going into that position. So, when I learned that technique from her, I thought that was really cool, because being a fairly petite person and working on people who are often larger than me is like, oh, that gives me another way to adjust the pelvis and low back. So, even though I didn't hear the audible release with that, I felt like it was a very effective way to actually work on the pelvis and low back and I would see the difference before and after the adjustment. And then I started getting a lot of people who were really nervous about getting their neck adjusted. So I had to figure out a different way to adjust their neck because I don't want to put them into more stress by by doing something that's uncomfortable for them. And so I was using a low force tool to adjust people but I used it very sparingly, prior to that, and then as these people started coming in expressing concern about that, I would adjust the rest of their body, the rest of their spine manually, and I would adjust their neck using these low force techniques. And interestingly, what started happening is that people actually started holding their neck alignments better for longer stretches of time. So it's like, okay, this is interesting because it was kind of like the win-win, right people were happy to not have to make as many appointments, I was happy that their body was holding their alignment because I don't really want to be someone's Band-Aid, either, right? I don't, I don't want someone to be dependent on an adjustment in order to be able to live the life that they want. So, I started looking into this more, and I was adjusting the pelvis and low back using this low-force technique as well. So, it was really only the mid-back that I was adjusting manually at this point. And then, over time, it started shifting where I was adjusting the whole spine using low-force techniques. And what that means is basically, that with most adjustments, besides the direction of the adjustment that you're trying to work on, you are primarily using speed and force. And I'd say the majority of chiropractors that have given me manual adjustments over the years, most of them are not very fast. And so most of them will use a lot more force rather than speed. And what that means is you're basically, you as the chiropractor, you're using more of your muscle mass to push past someone's tight muscles and get that adjustment to happen. And that usually means that the adjustment will happen. But because the body has moved very quickly, and in a way that required a little bit more force, the body kind of wants to bounce back to what it has remembered more quickly. So, the analogy is like a Theraband versus Theraputty, right? So, Theranad, when you stretch it, it wants to recoil back pretty quickly. As soon as you let go, it'll go back to its original shape. Versus putty. If you stretch it out, it may go back to its original shape, but it takes a really long time to get there. And our muscles and our ligaments and joints are a combination of the two. So, we need a little bit of the quick release. But we also need the slow aspect of it, which is kind of the difference between movement and yoga, right? In yoga, you're holding a stretch to get that elongation of the muscles, versus just movement where you're getting the quick change, but then you're going back to the original position. And so what the low force techniques allow us to do is use more speed, rather than force. So, you're allowing that change to happen. But the body takes time to go back to its learned muscle memory patterns. And so if we can spread out your adjustments, because you're holding your alignment, better for longer periods of time, then we don't have to retrain your body quite as frequently as we would compared to the traditional chiropractic methods or techniques used.
Pualena 28:17
Oh my gosh, okay, let's, and I promise everybody listening, we're gonna get into like, courses and you know that stuff. But and I hope that everybody is as fascinated with this as I am because it matters. It doesn't matter who you are digital entrepreneur, construction worker, like, we all have bodies with spines. And so this is just I think it's it's really interesting. A couple of things. One, just to sort of clarify for our listeners when we talk about like holding the alignment, right? And please correct me if I'm wrong, you are the chiropractor. But it's sort of like when we are somewhat misaligned. And we come when we get an adjustment. There's like a somewhat, I'm going to say force, that might not be the word but right, we're like, forcing the spine back into its proper place. And then over time, it kind of wants to go back. And so that's why we keep coming so that it continues to align, right? Is that sort of kind of on par with what? Please explain.
Anjali 29:18
Sure. So, the idea behind misalignments of the spine. And the reason that people, you know, often say that once you start going to a chiropractor, you have to go for the rest of your life. And that's only true because we continue stressing our bodies, right? So, we weren't designed to have ongoing stress. We were really designed to have episodic stress. The whole concept of fight or flight because of a bear showing up in your path, right, but now the stress is virtually 24/7 for almost all of us, right? Probably anybody listening to this podcast, because unless you were in some remote area of the world where you don't have access to all of this stuff, you're probably dealing with some aspect of it and stress, again, can be the physical structural, so we're probably having somewhat static movements in our day or maybe lack of movement, static postures in our day, what we eat, the air we breathe, the water we drink, all of that impacts our chemical and nutritional stress. So, perhaps we're not making the right food choices for our bodies, perhaps we're breathing in air that has been more polluted than what our bodies could keep up with on a day-to-day basis, perhaps the water is not as clean as what our body might need. So, all of those parts can impact it. And then, of course, mental and emotional stress is, is there as well. And so the idea behind stress is that that is what causes our body to shift its alignment of the vertebrae in our spine because our vertebrae and our nervous system are always responding to all those different stresses and trying to manage all of that. And so when you get the vertebrae corrected in its alignment, our goal as your chiropractor, the goal is to help ensure that we can support your body in as many ways as possible so that you can hold your alignment as well as possible for as long as possible. And that's why we talk about, in our practice, we talk about moving well, eating well and living well. So, moving well we talk about what are the day-to-day things that you could incorporate, such as taking a deep breath every hour, what are the day-to-day things that you can do to help your body hold its alignment better? What are the nutritional/ chemical changes that we need to make for you? Do we need to provide you with better-quality supplements? Do we need to make food modifications based on your body and your digestive system? What are the ways that we can help your mental/emotional well being whether it needs doing a gratitude journal or doing some exercises to engage the brain in a different way? Really trying to focus that for each individual, so that you can maintain your alignment as best as possible. But yeah, that's the idea behind when you have a misalignment and then holding in alignment would be how well you can maintain that alignment for.
Pualena 32:12
Beautiful. Thank you, please don't let me explain chiropractic things anymore. And it's great, like, I love that we get to just sort of clarify how our bodies function because we literally are our bodies. And yet, I think a lot of us don't understand the way that it works, and how we can best support ourselves. So, thank you this is so epic. And on that note, I would love to sort of touch on the way that you also provide nutritional support for people. And that is also this very, like mysterious space where there's so much noise. Don't eat carbs. Eat this. Don't eat that. Like there's just organic, not organic. What? And it's so interesting, because, and I would love to dive into this with you in terms of not just what's best for us as individuals. But also I think thinking about like, what is our genetic makeup and sort of historically, our personal ancestors, right? Does that affect the way that we process different kinds of nutrients and foods and what we want to eat and how we crave things or, you know, yeah, let's talk about it all.
Anjali 33:39
Alright, excellent. So, in terms of genetic expression, or genetic tendencies, I feel like I feel like a lot of us want to assign it's not necessarily blame, but we want to explain why something is the way it is, right? So, if someone has a family history of diabetes, we almost feel like we're destined to get it. So, it becomes okay, if we get it. Or as we get older, it becomes okay, if we have arthritis, because that happens to many people. And so, one of the things that I like to clarify for people is that just because it's common, doesn't mean that it's normal, right? And I think that really came to light for me because people would say, Well, I'm experiencing this, but it's okay. It's just because I have X, Y or Z, or I would see that a lot because I focus a lot with prenatal care. So people would say like, Oh, I'm just getting food cravings, but that's okay. I'm just pregnant or I'm experiencing nausea, but it's okay. I'm pregnant. Right and right, you are pregnant or you're X amount of years old or you have a family history. Yes. But if that were true, if that were normal, then that would mean that everybody in your family would have it or that would be that every pregnant person would experience this or that would be that every 75-year-old person would experience this. And that's not true, right? So, we are unique individual human beings and there could be different parts of our DNA and our bodies that make it more likely or less likely to experience things. But at the end of the day, it is all governed by enzymes and these chemical reactions. So, we have the ability to magnify or suppress those enzymatic reactions by taking control of what we're doing. And what the tricky part is, is that really making it customized for each person, because there are many good things in the world like, but eating salads isn't right for everybody. Taking vitamin D isn't right for everybody, taking calcium isn't right for everybody, right? So, rather than just going out and making these decisions based on what your neighbor is doing, or what your sister is doing, or so and so posted on Instagram, that this is the new thing to be considering. There is a lot of noise. And I think it gets really overwhelming. And I think what people end up doing is really just finding research to support their views on things, and then just going forward with that, as opposed to just saying, What does my body need? And how do I get a better analysis of what's happening in terms of my internal reactions and shifts in the body and kind of going back to the iceberg analogy of where we only feel about 10% of what's happening in our systems? When we talk about blood work, because that's what most people think of when it comes to their health, right? You go to your doctor, they take bloodwork, it comes back normal, they said, Well, everything looks great, you're fine. And you're like well, great, except I don't feel great internally, right, there's still something happening in my body. That is now not explained, I don't know what to do. And with nutrition work, what we look at is we can do a functional analysis of bloodwork, which is a little bit different than the critical analysis that most practitioners will do. So, we can look at that. However, if we look at the health spectrum, so if this is somebody in perfect health on one end of the spectrum, and somebody close to their deathbed, on the other end of the spectrum, symptoms don't appear when you're in perfect health, right symptoms really start to appear, typically about halfway down that spectrum. And bloodwork is really only testing that last 10% because our body's highest priority is to keep our blood happy like it will take resources from anywhere else in our body, in order to keep our blood happy. So, part of that iceberg thing of only feeling 10%, I gave the example of not feeling the calcium being taken from our bones or our teeth and going to the blood. So, if our blood needs calcium, it will likely take it from our bones or our teeth. If our blood needs magnesium, if it needs potassium, whatever it needs, the body will try to find it from other systems in our body to keep our blood happy. Which is why when you get a blood test, and it says that everything is quote-unquote, normal, or looks good. It doesn't actually tell you where is your body taking resources from in order to keep your blood happy. And if it's showing up normal in the blood test, it just means that it hasn't depleted your body is not depleted enough where it's actually draining it from your blood as well. So–
Pualena 38:46
Woah and if it's depleted in your blood tests, then you're in trouble. Right?
Anjali 38:50
Right, then it’s more urgent in the sense that your body is really needing not infusion specifically, but it needs these nutrients ASAP, right? And so what I've done, I've integrated functional nutrition nearly the whole time I was in practice. And I used to use a lot of different companies for different types of tests. So, I had to prioritize what I was really wanting to get information on. Because cost is always a reality for almost everybody that I work with. And so I had to prioritize what was really my goal to get information on. And we could test virtually any other tissue of the body, whether we're talking about hair, our saliva, our skin, our urine, our stool. We could test anything and that would give us a much better indication as to where our body's taking resources from. However, even with those tests, they were pretty limited in terms are focused on what a few things that they were looking at identifying and so I came across a different testing company about six years ago that does hair and saliva testing. It is hands down the most comprehensive analysis that I've come across. And so it looks at all the different systems in our body, it looks at food sensitivities, which is different than food allergies, but it looks at sensitivities. It looks at how our body's absorbing nutrients, what is happening with our hormone levels, if we've had pathogen exposure, that that hasn't been cleared out of our system, like if someone had mono, and it just kind of laid dormant into their systems, and then it also looks at what are the specific nutritional supplements, that would actually start to bring your body towards balance, which is fascinating because most testing just tells you what's wrong, but it doesn't actually tell you what to do. And if they do tell you what to do, it's usually based on a cookie-cutter protocol, like if this is high, take this, if this is low, take this. And this one is actually a completely customized recommendation based on what's happening with your body. So, no two recommendations have ever been the same in my last six years of doing this analysis. So, that's really how I look at testing for each individual, but that is looking at how are they digesting the nutrients? What are the changes that we could make for their day-to-day thing, so maybe it doesn't mean… Maybe it means having, I don't know like whole grain instead of refined grains, maybe it means having a certain type of vegetable, maybe it means that they have to steam it a little bit rather than having it raw, maybe it means they have to have a raw instead of having it cooked. Right? So really identifying for that person. So, you're not just making random choices based on the overwhelming amount of information that is present.
Pualena 41:51
Oh, my gosh, I am blown away. But truly, this is just very eye-opening, because I agree I think a lot of people see a blood test as the pinnacle marker for where you're at in your health. And so the test that you're talking about do you have a link? Could anybody take it? Is it something that's special through you? How do people sort of start that journey? And I hope they want to start with you. Because I think having you to guide people through the results and how to sort of utilize your very holistic and well-rounded approach, I think is a phenomenal service.
Anjali 42:33
Oh, thank you. Yeah, that's only available through practitioners. It's not. I think it's too confusing to order a test. Yeah. So that's only available through practitioners. But you can go onto my website and get a 15-minute complimentary call. And then we can certainly talk about if that's what you would like to explore further, then I'd be happy to set you up with that.
Pualena 42:56
Amazing. That's phenomenal. And I just I really appreciate the grounded approach that you have, you know, and I don't think that other people are wrong in their approach necessarily, but I think most, not most, the people who appreciate something that is grounded in science and research and something that is a very, it's just databased, you know, that's it feels like it will be a, it will yield results, I think is what we're looking for. Right? That's what everybody wants. Yeah. Yeah.
Anjali 43:31
Yeah, so my goal is always that within two weeks of working together, that you would start to see some kind of changes, whatever that would be based on your history and your goals. But I want to know that what I'm suggesting for you is working also, right, it's not my goal to just have you keep coming in and not see changes happen.
Pualena 43:51
Definitely. Amazing. So, does this mean that if somebody does not live in your area and can't necessarily come in as a traditional patient or client of yours? Do you offer sort of online services, either one-on-one group coaching? Walk us through everything that you have to offer for people who may live near you and may not?
Anjali 44:15
Yeah, so I'm in the Bay Area in California for the people who live or work close to me. Yes, they could certainly come in to be chiropractic patients or practice members. I have not figured out how to do chiropractic adjustments virtually, yet.
Pualena 44:33
If you do, you will be a bazillionaire.
Anjali 44:37
Right? But certainly for stretching, movement. I do virtual ergonomic assessments for people at their home office or their workplace. I set up with a number of companies to do virtual assessments in that capacity or going through stretches and things like that would be helpful for people to be able to again target to see what would be most helpful for them. I also have the YouTube channel for stretches available as well. And then for nutrition, certainly I can do that in person or virtually it doesn't matter where people are located for that. That is, well, I should say it's still most conducive to being in the United States. For it, I haven't figured out all of the aspects to be international for all countries, some countries are easier to navigate in terms of getting the testing or getting the recommendations, more feasibly to them. But certainly, in the United States, it’s not a problem.
Pualena 45:35
Amazing. And you also have some courses coming up. Tell us about those.
Anjali 45:42
I do, yes. So, the first course that is launching is the workplace wellness course. And that is really designed to help people regardless of whether or not you work in a traditional like computer desk, or in an office setting, or if you're working from home, whatever your day-to-day movements tend to be, it is to help better support that. And it is we call it supporting workplace wellness, through moving well, eating well and living well. And so we go into these different facets of how you can start to make some changes and understand your body better, whether it's looking at how you're moving it, how to set up your workspace, so that you can stand in the kitchen with more ease so that you can work in front of your computer with more ease. Understanding digestion and how it actually works. So, that before you take an antiacid, or before you take a digestive enzyme, you understand what the process actually is like, and looking at what it actually is presenting like if you're having trouble breaking down proteins or carbs, or fats so that you can make more informed decisions about your health and well being. And then we talk about living well, in the sense of what does it look like when you're in pain? What is the impact of that? What is the impact of you getting sick? How do we help support your body navigate that? And how do we look at supplements, because not all supplements are created equally. We talk about that. So, if you're going to the local store and making choices that you can make better-informed choices of what you're taking. We talk about different exercises that you can incorporate on a very easy basis. You don't need any equipment for them. And it's different from the stretching because this is actually neuro-sensory integration or things to help your brain function better. It's so that we can better support your mental and emotional well-being as well.
Pualena 47:45
Oh my gosh, oh, you are not even done. I am so sorry. I just can’t wait for everybody to–
Anjali 47:48
No, that was the first course.
Pualena 47:51
I'm sitting here I'm like, please let everybody in the planet learn about this woman, you are really the answer to every humans out there googling, how do I feel better? How do I eat? How should I move? Like, how do I create longevity for myself? And you are the answer. Please. I'm so sorry. I cut you off. This is amazing.
Anjali 48:18
Not at all. I appreciate your enthusiasm. The second course is about navigating the five trimesters of pregnancy and I call it the five trimesters because I consider conception that trimester and then going through the three trimesters of pregnancy and postpartum care. And it's more about breaking the myths associated with that whole journey. And also understanding how moving well, eating well, living well, plays into those different trimesters because we often are not aware of what our options are. So, if somebody is having infertility challenges, if they are experiencing the morning sickness, or nausea or fatigue in first trimester, these are times when people are not often talking to many people about what they're going through. And so you may not have a lot of resources available to you, in terms of what your options could look like, and even a second trimester, for many women, it tends to be a smoother experience. But if you're dealing with things like heartburn or some back pain, unless you have somebody who is informing you to maybe try chiropractic care or seek out more holistic measures, which is dependent on your OB, or two people baby, specifically telling you to seek out alternative resources, you're still feeling pretty limited because there's not a whole lot of support that can often be given during those periods or those months of your life. And that whole journey, and that even for postpartum care, right, a lot of things get written off as being normal even though it's common and not normal. So, a better understanding, how do you avoid postpartum depression? How do you or at least minimize it as much as possible? How do you avoid the hair loss that often comes after having a child? So, those are the things that we would talk about in that course.
Pualena 50:25
Oh, my goodness, seriously. And what I love so much about what you've put together is, traditionally, if you are a chiropractor, or anybody who provides that type of care, you can only engage with people who are in your area, who decide to come in to see you, who can afford that kind of care, right? It's like, it's a very limited pool of people if you think about the entire planet. And you are now creating spaces. And this is like, the whole premise behind this podcast, is how do we take our unique gifts, and talents, and experiences, and skills, and passions, and create opportunities to serve more people and to change lives, literally, for anybody on the planet who you could be potentially exposed to? So, thank you so much for diving into the world of online courses and saying yes to serving audiences that are beyond your, you know, physical proximity. I think it's beautiful work that you do is absolutely fascinating. I could literally talk to you for days. I do not want this to end. And just thank you for your generosity too and for sharing so openly. And just your passion for helping people is very, very palpable. And I just really appreciate it.
Anjali 51:51
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciated getting to chat with you. And likewise, I could talk with you forever.
Pualena 51:57
Well, we should do a part two. Definitely. Yeah. And you know, if anything else comes up, let me know. I'm happy to share with our audience. How can people learn more about you? How can they maybe experience some of your offers?
Anjali 52:14
Well, I think the best place would be to either go to my website, which is backinbalancehealth.com Or the YouTube channel, it's Dr. Anjali Agrawal, or on my LinkedIn page, Dr. Anjali Agrawal.
Pualena 52:29
Amazing. Thank you so much. Do you have any final thoughts or anything that you want to share that we didn’t touch on?
Anjali 52:35
No. Well, the gift that all your listeners is I'd love to share a downloadable PDF, which has some stretches on there that you could do which is also on the YouTube channel, but it's on a printed or it's in a PDF format. And then on the flip side of that is actually some basic guidelines for how to set up your desk because most people are in front of a computer at some point in their day. And so just a set of guidelines to look at when you're setting that up. So, I'd love to share that with your listeners.
Pualena 53:05
Phenomenal. We will definitely include that in the show notes and you are incredible. Thank you for doing what you do. And let's definitely stay in touch.
Anjali 53:16
I would love that. Thank you so much.
Pualena 53:17
Amazing.
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In this episode, Pualena emphasizes the need for businesses to stay ahead of the curve and future-proof themselves for success in 2024. She offers valuable insights into the trends that are shaping the future of online businesses, such as the increased accessibility of AI tools and shifts in consumer behavior. Furthermore, Pualena provides practical advice on setting up a content calendar for the upcoming year. She highlights the significance of storytelling and the resilience of a brand in connecting with the target audience.
Pualena shares her thoughts on the importance of providing high-touch affiliate experiences and how entrepreneurs can adapt to the changing landscape by embracing innovative collaborations and strategic networking. By sharing her expertise, Pualena encourages entrepreneurs to think creatively and strategically about their businesses and to take advantage of the opportunities presented by emerging technologies and changing consumer preferences. This episode is a must-listen for entrepreneurs who want to gain valuable knowledge and practical advice from Pua on how to future-proof their business and take advantage of emerging opportunities.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Kodak Film Company: kodak.comFujiFilm: fujifilm.com/us/ChatGPT: chat.openai.comMarie Forleo: marieforleo.comAmy Porterfield: amyporterfield.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
Create before you consume. So, get up, do your thing, go workout, drink your coffee, whatever you do in the morning, and then create. If you need to write emails, if you need to create social media content, whatever. And then like later on open your Instagram instead of rolling over in bed reaching over for your phone. And as soon as your eyeballs open, you're tapping on that app.
Pualena 00:27
Hello, and welcome back to the Course Creators Academy podcast, what will soon be the Rebel Media podcast in January of 2024. Super excited for that shift, same content style, more amazing interviews, and just sort of broadening our topics to include interviews with, it will still be mostly online entrepreneurs, people who are perhaps using online courses, and also people who are just building incredible businesses, with or without an online course. And I just wanted to create a more inclusive space. And you really focus on how entrepreneurs are using their unique brilliance, their talents, their skills, their passions, and going against the grain, to provide phenomenal services, innovative technology, and products. I just am so excited for what we have in store for early next year. So, you're here, you are most likely an online entrepreneur, probably a course creator. And today I want to have, I'm gonna say a discussion or a conversation. And it's always just in the solo episodes, me pretending that you're sitting with me and that we're chatting about these things. Of course, you're going to just get sort of my experience and my perspective, and bringing in tidbits from conversations that I've been having. And I think this is a really important place for us to sit and reflect as we are wrapping up the year and getting ready to jump into 2024. And thinking about, you know, what does our business look like next year, and, you know, New Year sort of energy and kind of, there's a little bit of added pressure with the turn of a new year, right? A turn of a quarter people don't really even blink an eye like, you know, March to April. Is that ever really focused on other than maybe your financials or your internal roadmap for your business, but everybody on the whole planet celebrates this transition from our current year to the next year. And I think that we often put a lot of pressure on ourselves to make these big changes or utilize this opportunity, as a global transition, to be able to announce or make shifts or bring new energy, or new products or services or, you know, whatever that looks like for you and your business. We often will take this opportunity to do those things. And I don't think that that's bad. Why not? I mean, everybody else is celebrating and, you know, there's really expansive, exciting energy around a new year. And so I think it's a great time to make shifts that will continue to bring your business forward and progress things in the right way, or even in the wrong way. Because you know, we either win or we learn. So, I want to just talk through ways that you might consider setting yourself up for success in 2024, based on trends, based on things that we've seen, and things that we anticipate might be coming soon, and how you can jump on that, create a beautiful ecosystem for your clients to be able to continue moving forward. You know, since I've been talking and sort of rambling, this is the longest intro ever. Thank you for sticking with me. I'm thinking about the Kodak film company and I often use this as an example of companies that were thriving. I mean, when film cameras were, before digital cameras, when all we had was film, Kodak, and like I think it was Fuji film. Were the two like top camera companies and film companies and they essentially had like, well, they did not have a monopoly on the market. There were other film companies but they were the leading film producers, by far. Everybody like Kodak was a household name. As soon as digital cameras came into the picture, I think, I studied this in school 20 years ago. I don't quite remember the details. I should have looked this up but this just sort of came to mind. Kodak did not really pivot. And if they did, nobody knew about it. Right? Everybody still knew, okay, so I'm gonna get my digital camera from, you know, remember Coolpix? Or like, you know, all the big camera companies came out with them, Sony had these cool little point-shoots. They were like waterproof, little digital cameras. They made them so affordable and accessible, that anybody that was using film was starting to explore the digital space. And then, of course, there were digital SLRs, they weren't as good back then as they are now. And for a while, I don't think that they truly replaced film and the quality that you could get from film and the artistry that you could get from film. And I still think today, yes, you can capture phenomenal images, and you can just put it on auto and start to shoot. If you are trained in capturing images on film, you are a true artist. And it's a dying art, I think. And it's sort of vintage, like, there are people who still shoot on film, and it's this very niche market. So, I think Kodak kind of understood that digital work couldn't replace film. But what I don't think they counted on was that most people wouldn't care. Right? Like, I think a lot of people were like, awesome, I'm gonna go on a vacation with my family and I get to capture memories. Are they professional quality, amazing photos? No, but people didn't want that, they didn't need it. So, Kodak's inability to successfully pivot with the market caused that company to plummet. And I don't even know if they're still around. Are they still around today? I imagine they might be in some capacity. But I still like I don't see Kodak as a leading camera company. I see them as a film company. And if I ever were to acquire a film camera, I would probably, you know, look for Kodak film, maybe. I'm gonna see, is Kodak still in business? All right. Yeah, they still continue to provide commercial digital printing products and services, motion picture, film, and still film. This was January 19, 2023. Interesting. So, they're still in the film business. Wild. Anyway, my point is, let's not be Kodak, let's pivot and shift with the market and continue to innovate and utilize these new tools at our disposal.
Pualena 07:40
2023 was a big year for AI. And we're gonna get into that. And I think, I mean, AI has been around for many years before. And I think similarly to digital cameras, AI was not as readily accessible. I mean, ChatGPT is free for everybody. Canva. So, I have a paid Canva account and I don't quite understand what I have available to me versus the free account. But what I think I can gather is the AI features and apps in Canva, which include like, you can text to picture and you can say, like, create me a picture of a dog with sunglasses playing ukulele. And it will create you like four versions of that, they're really cool. They're not perfect, but there's, it's incredible what it can do. And I think if you have the free version, you get like a limited number of something like, you know, five prompts or five requests versus 500. I don't know what it is. But what I'm getting at is AI features across the board are either completely free or very reasonably priced. I mean, there's also expensive stuff like podcast editors and stuff. But I think that this is the year that AI became very accessible to the general public. And it's not going away. And so that's a trend that we can look at. But yeah.
Pualena 09:10
I think there's, so, here are a few things that I've been chatting with other people about recently. And one of them is shifts in consumer behavior. This is sort of a, it requires a little bit of observation, and perhaps talking to people in Hawaiian and we call it “kilo”. And typically that's referred to as like you're going to observe a natural event or you know, like standing out on the shoreline and observing tides, to be able to make decisions for things like that. So, that's sort of like the traditional way to kilo but I think about kilo when we talk about consumer behavior because it's subtle, it's very subtle, but it changes actually quite quickly. So, if we think about the way that we consume advertising now, versus even a year ago, or three or five years ago, you know, we're not necessarily consuming a lot of TV advertising. Even like Hulu, or YouTube, when you see ads playing between videos or in the middle of videos, we are sort of passively consuming that and there is a threshold for where a business should probably be before they run ads on those platforms. And otherwise, you're wasting your money, right? Because those ads need to be thoughtfully produced. And considering the audience, right, they need to consider that you have a passive audience that you're watching a specific topic, a specific show, a specific video, and they need to capture your attention in a couple of seconds. Or you can either skip the ad or just sort of go do other things, while the ads running. There's a lot that goes into that kind of advertising, and it's no longer 30-second commercials. Although those still exist, we still see them, and some people still have cable. So, that's not totally dead. But, you know, there's that type of advertising. But what is more common, what we see more often, and what has a lower point of entry, both cost-wise, and just accessibility is things like Facebook, and Instagram, and LinkedIn, and TikTok. And we have like, official ads, right? So, there's like actual companies that are creating ad copy and ad campaigns and putting them out, creating graphics and video and captions. And then there's the influencer market. These are people who are using their platforms as one gigantic advertising platform, and taking like, they aren't paying Instagram to run an ad and place that ad in front of a targeted audience. They are curating their own audience, and then creating content to drive people to affiliate links. That didn't exist before, at all. Affiliate links didn't exist before. So, now we not only have this official copa– So, there's like levels, right? There's official official, right? That's like TV ads, even I would say Hulu, and all of those kinds of high-level broad audience ads, where you're just probably paying a lot more money to get in front of these audiences. And then we have YouTube, right? Anybody could run an ad on YouTube. But you'd probably want to be thoughtful about it so that you're not wasting your money, then we've got like Facebook and Instagram ads also can be relatively expensive. And then there's also the influencer market. The cost you're paying as an influencer, perhaps before you're big enough to get free products into you, you're buying products, you're reviewing products, you might be spending a lot of energy, creating your content to grow your audience. So, even if it's not necessarily a financial investment, in that straightforward term of paying a platform to run an ad, you're probably still putting money into whatever it takes for you to create engaging content. So, that's not an exhaustive list. I mean, there are tons of ways that people are consuming and getting exposed to new products. And this is so great, because 10 years ago, if you innovated something, you had a very small network, and you had to hustle and you have to go on your to constantly, like, get in front of audiences and do presentations and talk to people and, you know, send out mailers and, and now, if you create a product, you can get it in front of a pretty big audience pretty quickly, as long as you know how to work the system. Now, on the other side of that, as a consumer, we have become much more passive, right? It's much harder to capture our attention, a great hook, like a commercial hook that worked. I don't know 5-10 years ago, won't work now. People are just so like, tuned out and just kind of scrolling like zombies. And it's sad. It's a little bit difficult to think about because as humanity, we are like not paying attention to anything or anyone ever, we're so distracted. And I just think there's just too much input. I saw a great quote this morning from Marie Forleo. And it was very ironic as I was scrolling my Instagram, and she posted something that said, create before you consume. Create before you consume. So, get up, do your thing, go workout, drink your coffee, whatever you do in the morning, and then create. Write your, you know, if you need to write emails if you need to create social media content, whatever. And then like later on open your Instagram, instead of rolling over in bed reaching over for your phone, and as soon as your eyeballs open, you're tapping on that app. It's okay, if that's you, it's okay. I do it too. And I'm going to consciously really work towards not doing that. Anyway, but like, that's it, right? That's how passively you're consuming content. I could see 10 Instagram stories in the first minute that I woke up and remember none of it. Which also means repeated messaging is much more important now. So, before, right, it would be like don't spam my feed, like, why are you posting so many things? Or, why are you talking about the same thing over and over and over? Now, if you spam your feed, quote-unquote, nobody will even notice. For two reasons. One, we're distracted, we're consuming passively. But two, that algorithm is not going to put your stuff in front of the same people twice. So, people probably like if you have 1000 followers, I don’t know, 50 of them might see it. 100 people if you're lucky. So, repeated messaging is actually really important now. And it's unfortunately, forcing us to create more content, which means we have to be smarter about creating our content. Something that I chatted with one of my clients about yesterday, is putting together like, you know, we have a long holiday weekend coming up. Actually, by the time you listen to this, the holiday weekend will be over. But you have weekends in your life coming up, regardless of when you're listening to this. It's worth, let's say you get up on a Saturday, and you spend a little time with your family or you get up before your family wakes up. Whatever this looks like for you to steal a couple of hours for yourself. In like a beautiful setting, if you're always working from home, don't do this at home, go to your favorite coffee shop or, you know, get out in nature. It's so funny, right? Because I'm like, go to a park. Like, if you really think about taking your laptop to a park and jumping on your hotspot, and there's like flies flying around you and wind and there's like sun, so you can't see your screen, and there's like too much glare. Anyway, it's so funny because I've tried this a few times and I'm just like this is not, parks are meant for you to just enjoy nature, it's not meant for you to take your computer. So, do what you need to do to get out of your environment and find somewhere that's conducive to getting some work done, and create your 2024 content calendar. And here's what I would strongly recommend, okay, I'm gonna give you top to bottom, exactly how this could work for you.
Pualena 17:48
There are 12 months in a year. Every month, next year, and okay, I'm gonna preface this by saying you might not want to lock yourself into all 12 months of next year. Your business could change, your outlook could change, I hope that you're, going to call it like your basket of knowledge is going to get bigger, you're going to learn new things, you're going to want to talk about different things. So, an option is to give every month of next year a theme. What I might suggest to do instead though, to sort of leave room for this adjustment is to start with six months and then do this again in like April. But if you want to do the whole year and make adjustments as you go, if you need to, great. If you don't need to and you want to schedule the whole year, and just like call it good. And you're confident that that's going to, like be good for you, which I think is completely possible for a lot of us. Do that. Okay, so then you have 12 themes for your content. That's it, 12. Take each theme, flush it out, write some bullet points about it. Now break each month down by the week and this is where you get to make some decisions for yourself on how you want your content to be created, how you want your content to be delivered, what platforms you're on, this was very different depending on your business and your personal preferences. Some people will theme their days, right? Let's say I have a daily blog. I'm just going to, say that, people do it, hey love it. That sounds terrible to me. But if I have one, right? So, if I have a daily blog, and every month has a specific theme, does every day of the week have a theme, and then does every week of the month have a theme? Because then you create this grid for yourself and you can start to essentially fill in the blank. It's like a giant year-long Madlib and your content creation then becomes formulaic. Okay, so let's say the theme of January is, of course, I'm totally drawing a blank. Let's see, the theme of January is… Okay if I'm an interior decorator, January is houseplants, as I sit here and look at a plant. And the first week is selecting the best house plants for your lifestyle. And you can go from, you know, fake plants, to succulents, to plants that need to be by windows. I don't know, this is becoming a really bad example. But you know, I hope that you can see what I mean by this, even with a bad example, and sort of so like, okay, maybe every Monday is like, actionable tip, right? Hey, do you have a black thumb? Great, go to Target and get yourself a fake plant and put it in your environment, and see how that changes your mood. And then, you know, next Monday is, do you have a fiddly fig and it's not doing so well, scoot it over closer to a window and see what happens. Like it. That's totally up to you. But what I'm saying is if you have a framework, the content creation then becomes fun. Because then you can just tap into the things that you're passionate about the things that you know, the things that you understand deeply, and fit them into each of these categories. Instead of sitting there and being like, what am I going to create today? What am I going to write about today? I'm not inspired today. And then you can batch-create your content. We've talked about this before. But I think now is a perfect opportunity, as we are at the end of the year to look ahead of next year and see like this actually doesn't have to be overwhelming. It doesn't have to be hard, and it doesn't have to take that much time. Right? Okay. Anyway, if you want to hear more about that reach out to me, we got to move on.
Pualena 21:55
Okay, so, let's talk a little bit about trends, like changing trends and stable trends. So, what I mean by that is, Instagram is probably not going to go away next year, although it might, which is why we always say build your email list. Because if Instagram decides to just say, you know, what? TikTok, you’re King, I'm leaving. Please don't let that happen. But it could. Anyway, I don't think it's going to. I think we will have Instagram the same way that we've had Facebook since 2004. Wow, 20 years of Facebook, that's crazy. So, being on a platform is a decision that you can make and feel like you can sort of plan around that. What we aren't always able to do, is see what features are coming on that specific platform. The trend that Instagram is used by many people will probably be the same. The trends of how people use Instagram will probably change. Okay, so, it's pretty important to keep up with the way that we consume content, you know, long-form versus short-form videos, long-form versus short-form text. I know people who blog, and they write like two paragraphs, and they just include all their keywords for that topic. And that blog has only one objective. It's not a resource, it's not for people to actually get value, although they probably could get some, it is 100% for search engine optimization to drive people back to that person's business. Is that still viable? And like, you know, why would they do that? Why would they create a blog with no intention of providing value? Perhaps it's because people aren't really reading blogs anymore. People aren't really subscribing to blogs, right? That been around for so long. And when we build new websites for clients, a lot of times the clients are like, Oh, I think I need a blog. Can we do a blog? And it was like, tell me why you want to blog? Oh, well, you know, I heard it's good. I heard it's good for SEO. If you have a blog, that's good for SEO, it's a very active blog that's very consistent, and you're providing lots of value. Is that something that you're willing to commit to? Oh, yeah, you know, I guess I could do that. It needs to be like I love writing. Or I have a team member who, her entire job description is around this blog, like a blog is a commitment, especially now because the reason why we have blogs is different. So, you know, if you have, you know, you're a personal chef and your blog is recipes. I actually think those kinds of blogs can still work quite well and they might still attract subscribers. But people are typically only subscribing to audio and video content now. And if they are going to subscribe to written content, they might be subscribing to like Kindle, you know, like they want to read, not really reading blogs. They’re reading articles, they're reading books, listening to books, it's very different. Correct me if I'm wrong, this is just based on my experience, and if blogs are still, you know, alive and well, and if you know for yourself that you, people are still subscribing to blog content, please let me know. And I'm so happy to come on here and change my tune. But I truly think that that is the intention for blogs is shifting quite a bit. Now, if you do love to write and you want to have a blog, it is still pretty good for SEO, right? Because people are like, they're going on Google. And they're like, how do I edit a podcast video? And if you've written a blog on how to edit a podcast video that might show up in the search. People are going to see that they might, you know, end up clicking through to your website. So, that actually still works as a great lead-in to your business, to your website, to your services, to your products. If you're going to write a blog about how to edit a good podcast video, you probably want to do a YouTube video. And if you are thinking about what kind of content to create, YouTube is probably going to be more effective than a blog. But again, it's a commitment. If you're going to have a YouTube channel that you want to grow and you want to use to attract business, it's going to need to be consistent. YouTube is a lot more work too. You need to edit it and have a little intro/outro. The little clips at the end, tagging, great captions, thumbnails. All of that is very important on YouTube. So, just think about the platform and the type of content you're creating, and the commitment that you're willing to put forth. Okay.
Pualena 26:54
Your brand must be resilient. And, you know, double down on your brand. Use your colors, use your fonts everywhere, put your logo on things, and get them made like hats and sweatshirts, and T-shirts. Like if you think about your favorite entrepreneur, and I'm thinking of a couple of people who you don't typically see doing this, like Amy Porterfield and Marie Forleo. Like, they're often you know, their clothing is very curated, and their videos are beautifully edited. However, I can see their logos in my head. So, they must be using them somewhere they must be repeating that messaging somewhere, right? It is so important that your brand becomes a household name for your target audience. And if it's not yet, we got to do all the things we talked about earlier, to bring it in front of people repeatedly, so that they understand who you are, what you do, and hopefully feel like they can trust your brand to support their challenges, whatever that is. Whatever problem that your services or product solve, these people, who are your target audience, should be thinking about you. Right, like, so I'm grateful that I have a network that if somebody is like, hey, I really need a new website, people they text me all the time. They're like, Hey, Pua. I just got one like, a few minutes ago. Pua, this is so and so, she needs help with her website. She's a doctor in New Hampshire. Pua this, you know, so and so this is Pua, she does great work, she might be able to help you with your website. That to me is so beautiful. I'm so grateful because that means that they trust you as a service provider, somebody who has a great product and they're willing to refer their friends to you. You are the one that comes to mind when somebody comes to them and they're like, oh, I need x y&z, right? So, that is who we want to become in our networks in our spaces. And allow your brand to sort of represent you and your company and your product and your services. Double down on it, right? Utilize storytelling. Your brand should tell a story. And then people should be able to tell your brand story to other people. Right? Oh my gosh, there's this great company, I ordered their magnesium, the CEO, she's awesome. I saw her on a Facebook Live or a podcast. And you know, she created this company because she had this problem. Storytelling is what connects people to who you are and what you do. And if your brand doesn't have a story, if you don't have a story, I think that's not true. I just think you haven't taken the time to sit down and reflect on how you got here and what– everybody has a story. You're here. Like how did you get to do what you're doing? Sit down and tell somebody that and then figure out what parts of that story feel really compelling and vulnerable and authentic and worth sharing, right? That's so important is to bring storytelling into your brand experience.
Pualena 30:15
Networking and collaboration. Okay, so I had a really cool conversation, this episode is essentially just me pulling my notes together from all of the conversations that I've had over the last few weeks. So, I was talking to somebody about affiliates. And you're going to hear from her actually. She's coming on the podcast in a few episodes from now. And she has a phenomenal affiliate program. And I told her, you don't have an affiliate program, you have an affiliate experience, you have an affiliate family. The way that this woman runs her affiliates and provides them with resources and calls and support and keeps them keyed into, you know, new things that are coming and ways that the products have been helping people like I just, it's a really high touch affiliate experience. And there's a lot of effort that goes into it. And I think it's well worth it, she does really phenomenal job. And that, to me, I think is one of the only ways to create a successful affiliate program. No longer are people going to say like, oh, my gosh, I have this link. And if I talk about your program that I know almost nothing about people are just going to buy it, and then I'm gonna get some cash. That’s not a thing. So, as a business owner, you need to understand that that's not a thing. You can't be like, Hey, I'm launching this course and I haven't, do you want an affiliate link, and you can share about it, you know, like, post about it on social media, and I can give you a couple of like, social media tiles, and, you know, you can, can just post it, and then you know, if people buy it, then you're gonna get 50% Commission, like, it's such a great way to make some cash. And people are like, oh, yeah, cool, send me the link, send me, here's my email, send me the tiles. They're never going to post it for you and if they do, it's not going to pan it out, pan out, pan out, pan in, what is it? It's not going to result in sales. They're not trained, their audience is not your audience, they aren't putting effort into it, they're just doing it as a favor to you to show you that they care. And they do care. They love you. That's why they're doing it. But it's not going to be successful. Because for all the reasons I just said. So when we're looking at networking and collaboration, and figuring out how we can bring other people into the fold and create this, like, community around your product and service. And think about this, too, like people have their own stuff to worry about. They have their own jobs, their own businesses, their own families. They aren't thinking about your business 24/7, the way that you're thinking about it 24/7. So, why would they be sharing it in the same way that you're sharing it without any guidance, or buy-in, or understanding why this is such a no-brainer to share and why it's so important for them to get people to opt into whatever it is that you're selling, right? So, we need to be thoughtful about our collaborations, especially as we move into this, even more passive consumption and passive content space. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going away, I think people are just going to get more and more sort of zombied out. And the way that I think collaboration is going to continue to move towards and successful collaboration is– like true collaboration, right, it's not sharing an affiliate link. It's not saying like, Oh, come be like a guest teacher in my course. It's co-creating, literally, like two business owners coming together and saying how can we combine our unique brilliances, and our talents, and our skills to serve this audience? Like true collaborations. Now, this happens a lot in online businesses where let's say like, I'm a web designer, and you're a business coach, and we come together and we create this program, this six-week course with live calls and coaching and like course area and recordings and this community, and, you know, you get business coaching, and then you can also instantly apply that to your digital space. And it's this experience, anyway, there's that and then there's also a lot of product collaborations, and I think that needs to be more and more on the table. So, for example, I do Jiu Jitsu and I see a lot of like, our school, we're really lucky to have this really awesome person, and he's a black belt. He owns a GI company and he does a lot of great collaborations with local businesses. So, for example, he did a collab with a local brewery, beer, and Jiu Jitsu GIs? You would never think that that collaboration would exist. And it was, it was so epic, you know, and the beer company had like a tagline and their logo on the GI and, and, I think they did like a launch party at one of their locations. Collaborations can be very creative. And I think they can just, you're utilizing each other's audiences, right? So, there might be some people who frequent this brewery who do Jiu Jitsu but aren't aware of this other company, this GI company, and now they are and vice versa. And maybe somebody hadn't tried those beers. And then, but they often purchase GIs from this company, and they go to this event and they are exposed to those new products. You know, it's, I think it's really beautiful. It's really effective. And it's so fun. It's a way for you, especially if you're a solo entrepreneur, to sort of get out and connect with other people and collaborate and sort of create this expansive experience with somebody else.
Pualena 36:22
Okay, this has gone on too long. I am going to wrap it up, we might do a part two. We being me. I might do a part two because I had a few other things on my list and I was just sort of sitting here reading it live and wanting to flesh them out a little bit more before I talk them through. And maybe I can have a guest to talk to about these things so that it's not just me. Either way, I will bring you more of this juicy goodness. And thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. I look forward to staying connected with you and seeing how your business grows and thrives into the new year. All right, talk to you soon.
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In this insightful episode of the Course Creators Academy podcast, Pualena delves into the dynamic landscape of online course creation, offering valuable trends and strategies for course creators. She emphasizes the pivotal role of personalized learning experiences, encouraging creators to understand and cater to the specific needs of their target audience.
Pualena sheds light on the growing influence of artificial intelligence (AI) in content creation, describing how tools like ChatGPT can be harnessed to generate course outlines and content. She advocates for a nuanced approach, where creators use AI as a foundation but infuse their unique personality and expertise into the material, making it their own.
The episode also tackles the challenge of ensuring quality in a space flooded with service providers, urging creators to showcase their personal value and guide clients in researching the product market thoroughly. Pualena emphasizes the power of repetitive messaging in a saturated market, stressing the importance of consistent and repeating communication to capture and retain audience attention. Looking ahead to 2024, she predicts a trend toward collaborative learning platforms, where creators join forces to develop courses, bringing diverse perspectives to the table. The episode concludes with a heartfelt call for reflection and celebration of personal and professional accomplishments as the year draws to a close.
Resources discussed in this episode:
ChatGPT: chat.openai.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
Find your target audience, identify them, and get very clear on who they are, and be relentless with your messaging. Now, I don't mean to spam your feed, that's different. No, you want to keep delivering value. You want to keep being consistent. But you don't want to assume that because you've posted about something once that everybody who needs to see it has seen it and has understood it, and has taken action on it.
Pualena 00:29
Hello, and welcome back to what is now the Course Creators Academy podcast and what will soon be the Rebel Media podcast, or the RBL media podcast. I think I'm going to say rebel. And on our last episode, I was kind of flip-flopping back and forth between, do we call it Rebel Media? Do we call it RBL media? And quite honestly, that is also something that I experience in my business every day, most people are referring to it as RBL media. Sometimes I also refer to it as that if I'm giving out like the URL, or my email address because there are no “ee’s”. So, we will ease into and sort of feel into what this podcast is called verbally. But the, it will be all it will be spelled RBL Media podcast, and I'm really looking forward to asking guests this question. What makes you a rebel in business? And if you're sitting there and you're like, Oh, my God, I want to answer that question, shoot me a message, shoot me an email. And I would love to have you on the podcast because this is all about providing a space for business owners and entrepreneurs who are just thinking outside the box constantly, which I think is most entrepreneurs, and giving them a space and a stage to share their message with the world to just, you know, inspire people. And I love the idea of having you know, people that you may have never heard of. And after being on the podcast after you hear them, you may become their biggest fan. So, why not? Right? So anyway, that is going to be very exciting. But for now, it is mid-November, 2023. Well, when did that happen? How did this year, like just fly by? I was talking to a friend of mine and she has young kids, she has three daughters. And one of her daughters is, I think she just turned 13, or she's turning 13. And she goes, I can't believe I have a teenager like five years ago, which to us as adults, five years ago doesn't actually seem like it's anything. 2018 could have been last year, right? Like, it feels like it's a blink of an eye. But if you have a 13-year-old, five years ago, you had an eight-year-old, and the difference in age, and just the personality and how your child exists in the world when they're eight versus when they're 13 is completely different. So, just I don't know, time. Time is funny. And that brings us to the conversation today. And you know, I think we're talking about trends and what we're seeing and what's working and what's not working in this online course space. And when we talk about online courses, I do think that it often includes a heavy percentage of coaching, consulting, and elearning in general is sort of an extension of the coaching industry. So, I think these can be kind of cross-pollinated across the board. But I'd love to just recap like, from what I've learned working with our clients, and trends that we've seen, what, you know, what can we expect? What should we be focusing on? What can we be working on, as we think about moving into the new year into 2024? So, what sort of comes to mind when we think about how this industry has evolved? And what trends we're looking at, there is a heavy emphasis on personalized learning experiences. And if you're thinking about this from an online course perspective, you know, it's not necessarily building a specific course for a specific person, but it is building a specific course for a specific target audience, a specific type of person, right? Your audience is typically one person, one consumer of this content. And they are typically you know, they have certain traits, they have certain qualifications that makes them your ideal buyer, your ideal target audience. And the way that you know, coaches, consultants e-learning, and e-course creators are developing personalized content is through their experience, right? We talked about this last week, or in our last episode, ask questions, pull your audience, do user interviews, and understand what those pain points are for your people. We do this so much as entrepreneurs, especially as solo entrepreneurs, you know, maybe have a business coach. I hope that you do, who you speak with regularly, you can ask them questions, you can bounce ideas off of them. Ideally, you have some kind of community where you're able to share and ask ideas. But many of us, even if we have these things, maybe our business coaches are focused on helping you hit a specific set of goals, or, you know, they're helping you with your finances, or whatever that looks like, we often aren't able to get good, reliable feedback and data on the things that we're creating. I take that back, we are able to, but we often don't. Because it takes talking to people. Sometimes it's like, single entrepreneurs who work from home and you know, their little home office in their cave, we are kind of introverted, and we don't want to talk to people or you know, it can be scary. I don't want to ask somebody what their thoughts are because what if they don't like it? Or what if they have a suggestion that I'm not able to follow through with? Making, like, yes, I acknowledge those fears, acknowledge those perceived roadblocks, and find a way to slowly but surely work through those. And the best way to do that is to take action and talk to people anyway, right? We want to ask people, what are they struggling with? what are their pain points? How did they feel? What were they going through before they took our course, that's great for your sales page, right? Use list pain points that are in the language of your clients and consumers. Again, using the fitness model, the fitness example, Hey, I have high-intensity interval classes, my classes are 30 minutes, and you come in, you do you know, a series of four intervals, and then you leave and then it's gonna increase your metabolic rate at rest and blah, blah, blah. And everyone's like, I don't know what that means. Nor do I care. I just want to lose weight. What are you struggling with? Low Energy, I feel slow, I feel tired. I feel lethargic. I don't like the way that I look like these are pain points that people are, real people are struggling with. We want to use their language, right? How do we get their language, we talk to them, we ask them questions. And then we create content around what it is that they need. So, when I say personalized learning experiences, you're creating this user experience around a specific type of person, a specific challenge, a specific result that this group of people who share this, you know, one experience or trait or desire. That's who we're talking to. Okay? So, you can think about it as one person, if you want to. This results in higher satisfaction and higher engagement levels amongst your learners. If I feel like you are talking to me, if I'm taking a course, I'm taking your high-intensity interval training course that you've called, feel great in 30 days, I don't know, terrible title. But that's speaking to the result that I'm looking for. Right? I want to feel good. I want to make sure that I'm taking my health into my own hands. And I would like guidance through that. I can't afford personal training, but I can afford to purchase this 30-day course, right? We want people to feel like we understand their problems and their challenges, what they're going through, and their desired results, so deeply, that it feels like they're talking to me. Right? So, these personalized learning experiences are helping me to stay motivated, to feel heard, to feel understood, and to stay engaged. This all still works. Okay. So, if you're thinking of creating a new course, or redesigning your course next year, those are some things to consider.
Pualena 9:52
Now, I don't think that we can talk about course creation trends without mentioning AI. This year AI has blown up, AI is not like terribly new, but I think ChatGPT and a couple of other early adopters to this technology that, you know, had the resources and the capability to get them into the hands of the general public. For an affordable amount. I mean, ChatGPT is free, you can also pay for it. But that, to me is like that put AI on the map because then every single human potentially was able to understand the power of AI. And the thing is learning every day. Yes, creepy. Yes. How do I feel about AI? I'm not sure. However, it's cool. If it ends up taking over the world, and, you know, taking on its own intelligence, becoming smarter than us and then destroying us. Yeah, I think that's a real possibility. And I think it’s a little concerning, but from a content creation perspective, it's very useful. And I think that you know, you can open ChatGPT. And there, there are two kinds of course creators who use AI and I'm just gonna use ChatGPT because it's something that I use often, I also use other types of AI, and the same rules, I think will apply. So, if I am creating a new course, one kind of person goes into ChatGPT and says, write me an online course outline for a 30-day course for high-intensity interval workouts. Actually, I'm just gonna do this right now. Write me a 30-day online course outline. You should spell correctly too, for a high-intensity interval training course. With a new workout and new every week, every day. And a new theme or focus every week. It's all in the prompt. So, right now, ChatGPT is generating a response, and it is wild. Wow. So, it broke it down by week. Wait till you see this. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, it's calling it the 30-day high-intensity interval training, parenthesis HIT online course outline, week one foundation and form, day one welcome and introduction, three bullet points overview of the course, introduction to the HIT concept, and setting personal fitness goals. Day two basics of HIT, explanation of high-intensity intervals and rest periods, importance of proper warmup and cooldown. Day three, bodyweight basics day for active recovery. Day five, equipment introduction basics, nutrition for HIT. Day seven, weekly reflection. Week two, cardiovascular endurance. Day eight cardio basics interval. So and all of these have at least two to three bullet points underneath. And this is it's decent, it really is. In, like, cool, like this is, kay so, right, there's two kinds of people, one, somebody who is going to take this and they're just going to build with it. This is the outline. It did all the work for me; I'm creating this course. Boom, put it out there, create market, create market. Yeah, this is great if you want to get things out fast. Okay, the other person who uses ChatGPT to create your course outline, you are using it as a starting point. But you realize that people are buying into you as a personal brand, you as your personality, your ability to inspire them to motivate them, your knowledge, your experience. So, you're going to take this as a starting point. And you are going to weave your personality, your knowledge, your experience into this and you are going to change things. Okay? Yes, great idea. The weekly outlines pretty good. Maybe day to day you have a different approach to HIT training. Maybe you want to break this up differently. Based on your experience I actually don't want to introduce equipment on day, whatever five, right? So, I think that is the way to go when it comes to AI. Use it. It's a phenomenal tool. It exists to support us. It doesn't exist to replace us. Okay? I talk to a lot of copywriters and some of them have come on this podcast and I always ask, do you think AI is going to replace you and your job? Everybody says no, at this point in the game, copywriters are pretty confident that they can write better than a machine. Now, it depends, right? If you want to just pump content out and like, yeah, ChatGPT can write an entire copy, an entire landing page copy. And you can put it out in the world and it might work. But at this point, I also think that most people can tell when something's been generated by AI. A lot of the AI-generated images, headshots, right, people are doing that they're like, their profile pictures are AI, really, really good, like, really scary how close it is to a photo. More often than not, I can still tell that it's AI. And it might take really small adjustments. And maybe there are some programs out there that can create something so good that I won't be able to notice. And I think the time is coming quickly. And I guess, I don't know when we're able to sort of integrate reality and AI so well, that you can't differentiate them anymore, I think that's going to be a really interesting turning point for humanity. Until we get there, I recommend using AI as a, yeah, a support tool, and not a way for you to sort of get out of doing the work. Because energy is still very tangible. Wow. Is it? It's actually not it is like the least tangible thing. What am I trying to say? I think people feel energy, they will feel your energy, they will feel ChatGPT’s energy, they will feel my energy, right? Everything's different and your people are following you. They are opted into your email list. They are waiting for your content because they like you. They trust you. They appreciate your perspective. Okay, so just something to think about when we've talked about AI. All right, and like to be fair AI is more than just writing copy, wordsmithing, making images, like AI can there's like AI podcast editors, so I have a human team. Astronomic Audio is my podcast editor, Alex, and his team, huge shout out because they are absolutely phenomenal. And, I mean, they might use AI to support the work that they do. But they are a team of humans who are completing the projects and doing the editing work. There are plenty of platforms out there that probably cost less than what I'm paying, and I don't want to use them because I trust that the quality assurance and the energy and sort of the perception of the humans who are editing the podcast that's meaningful to me at this at this point in the game, but there are you know, AI podcast editing tools that will automatically pull ums and likes and blank spaces and pauses out and you know, make your your life and your job a lot easier if you're especially if you're self-editing or editing your own podcast. But again, I just, if you can have a human and their energy and sort of their special touch, I just at this point, I don't see AI fully replacing that yet. So, thank you Astronomic Audio.
Pualena 18:42
Okay, moving on. Ah, looking at my notes. Okay, I let's talk about like, so those were kind of the big end-of-the-year trends to me, right, like keep it personalized. AI is in everybody's face, it's the elephant in the room. It's like people are, it exists, it's here to stay. So, let's talk about how we're going to use it. And, on that note, right, like everybody can potentially access AI. Everybody can potentially, you know, sign up for an e-learning platform and create a course. And this has been true, you know, in the coaching space, right? Even before all of this, anybody can be a coach. And there's like a, it's a Wild Wild West, anybody can create a product, right? Like that's the beauty of living in this sort of space of freedom. And yet, there is a significant issue around the lack of standardization of quality. I see this all the time in the web design world. Anybody can be a web designer, and the challenging thing is, as you know, especially the target audience of entrepreneurs, startups, business owners, people who are, you know, we value where we spend our money. We want to make good financial decisions. And sometimes we have to make sacrifices either in quality, how do I say this? Okay, so like, if you hire a web designer to build you a website for $500, you most likely are going to get a $500 website, that is going to be very different from a website that costs you $5,000. Perhaps all you want is a good start and you can go in and make the adjustments you need to make, more often than not, you will be left with a big heavy bag of frustrations. And it's a shame also that like, you know, it doesn't take much to learn how to use a drag-and-drop template, and then kind of label yourself as a web designer, put yourself out on these freelancing websites, get a handful of clients that you can sort of like, serve, to like, give them the bare minimum of what they've asked for, they won't be super satisfied, but there'll be like oh well technically you delivered. Right? And that's because it's very challenging to figure out how do we standardize quality in this space? How do you standardize quality in coaching and consulting? Which is why having these, you know, landing pages and websites and certifications, and highlighting those, highlighting what you know, highlighting testimonials and how you help people solve problems, and how you deliver your results. All of that is really important and as consumers, we have to be vigilant and do our due diligence. And, you know, I always tell my clients, before they hire me, feel free, go look at my portfolio. Click on those websites, they're real people, they're real businesses, and ask them what was it like to work with me. What was their experience? If they had a bad experience, and they tell you, they had a bad experience, I welcome it. Feedback is data. I'm sad. Like, I don't want anybody to have a bad experience. But the other thing is, like, if they say, Oh, Pua is, you know, she's really friendly, we did a weekly call every week, I was very involved in the collaborative process of building together. And that person's like, oh, well, I'm just looking for somebody to send all my information to, they're gonna put a website together for me, and then they're gonna give it back. That's not how I deliver websites. Like we have a very, like unique and customized experience. Learning about the business owner is an important part of that process for us. So, that's great, because then we realize they're not the right fit. That is absolutely perfect. I love that. I yeah. So this, I don't know, I think it's just something to be aware of if you are a consumer, and if you are a course creator, coach, consultant, service provider, how can you build that standard for yourself, and showcase it to your potential clients? How do you invite them to do their due diligence? How do you show them what you're capable of, and help them to figure out if they're the right fit? Right? So, that one is more of just something for you to think about. We can definitely dive deeper into that and talk about some strategies. But I think it's worth mentioning because it is an issue. And if you're listening to this, you probably have a very legitimate concept for your business, you provide high-quality services, you have ideas for great, you know, products and courses that you want to put out there. And people need to know you're the real deal. And once people get burned enough, also, they're going to have this sort of wall up when it comes to investing in, especially coaching. They're so like, if especially web design, right? Most people I talk to have been burned by a web designer, they've paid 1000s of dollars, it wasn't what they expected, they got locked out of their website, their web designer disappeared, you know, and being on the other side, there's like, it's just so crucial to find the right fit. Find a service provider, a coach, a designer, who you resonate with, who you appreciate their aesthetic, who you feel that you can have open communication with, who you just feel like is a good person and means well, yeah.
Pualena 24:43
All right. Let's look at the next one. Okay, so on that note, because there are so many people out there providing all these services and you are essentially, I'm going to use the word competing, against countless other people in your industry doing almost the same thing, right? And this can be challenging from a messaging perspective, from a positioning perspective, how do you differentiate yourself? How do you reach your target audience that may already be inundated by other people targeting them for the same services? How do we, you know, increase how you show up on search, all of these things need to be considered. And on the other side, we have consumers, we have your target audience, and all of these people sitting in this pool, they're on Facebook, and they're getting all these ads thrown at their face. They also have just like major overwhelm, like just overwhelm of choice, right? I need to hire a business coach. Okay. Well, I'm gonna Google Business Coaches in Honolulu, holy moly. And that's not even considering the business coaches that are all over the rest of the world, who work remotely, who would be willing to work with my timezone. How on earth am I going to choose? This is where we just have to get creative and relentless with our messaging. If you think about how you consume social media, I can be on Instagram for 10 minutes, and not even remember what I looked at four seconds ago, literally. I could do it right now to prove it to you. So, if I am in your target audience, and I start to receive posts from you, the algorithm starts to show me your content, because of some hashtags that you used and something that I searched. And slowly, but surely, I'm seeing more, and more, and more, and maybe the sixth, or the seventh time I see a post from you, I'm like, oh, business coach, scroll on, oh, this is coaching my area scroll, oh, business coach for web designers. I feel like I saw something about this a couple of weeks ago, right? And so the messaging has to be repeated. Oh, you have a download a free download for this. I'll tell you right now, this gets me all the time, free web design proposal templates. I probably have 50 of them. I love to look at web design proposals. Do I use them all? No. How many have I used? Two maybe, and I didn't actually end up using them at all, like, they just gave me ideas. But because I am the perfect target audience for people who are coaching web designers, or they have a platform to organize web design tasks or invoices, you know, whatever that is, find your target audience, identify them, get very clear on who they are, and be relentless with your messaging. Now, I don't mean to spam your feed, that's different. No, you want to keep delivering value, you want to keep being consistent. But you don't want to assume that because you've posted about something once that everybody that needs to see it has seen it and has understood it and has taken action on it. You'd be surprised how many people I talk to and they're like, Well, I have this, this free webinar and I posted about it on my Instagram, but nobody signed up. I was like, Honey, I bet you if 10 people saw that, zero people actually saw it. And then next week, when you post it again, 20 people see it and one person might stop scrolling. It's not that your post is bad. It's not that your caption is bad. It's not that you don't have great copy or images. It's not that you're providing a bad service. It's that people are so distracted, and they are so passive. We know this by now. But I think it doesn't hurt to say it again, just in case you're sort of beating yourself up over, maybe you had like a launch that didn't pan out the way that you thought it would and your marketing channels are limited to whatever you have free access to, which is often social media email list. Those things are great. They're very powerful. You just have to be relentless with your messaging. Do not underestimate the power of repetition. Okay?
Pualena 29:17
Okay, let's take a look ahead a little bit. And, like, what's in store for this space, in 2024? I'm not a fortune teller. I am not a seer. I don't have any insight information for many platforms. So, this is speculation. This is just, you know, based on the past year, the past four years, what I've seen the direction that I think we're probably going in is, I would say collaborative learning platforms. You know, being able to and we already see some of this right? And I think it goes beyond the kind of affiliate partnerships, which is something that has been really popular in the last few years. But I think more like true collaboration, right, I'm going to develop a course, with another coach. I’m going to sort of integrate the people who have successfully achieved this transformation and they will then become part of the curriculum for this next version of my course. I'm going to have, you know, this person who graduated from my course six months ago, come in and teach a couple of modules, or maybe they are opening their own business and we want to have like a 50/50, split and co-create this together. Lots of options for that and I'm seeing a lot more of that style of content creation and just like raw collaboration. I think it's beautiful. I think it's powerful. You get to utilize each other's networks, and contacts, and followers. It's really cool. And like, above all, it seems super fun. Right? There's one thing, maybe you have fun recording your own course, alone in a room with a tripod, and a mic and a camera and a computer, and then you edit it and then you know, for some people, that's fun. I actually think it's like, it's kind of fun. How much more fun would it be to do it with someone else? Right? So, I sat and I pondered this for a bit. And that was really the trend that I could come up with that I feel like is exciting. It's like, find collaboration partners, I think it's just if that's the direction that we're going, then I'm stoked for next year. And yes, keep track of AI and all that it can do and all that is available to you with that like that's not going anywhere. And yet human-to-human connection and interaction, I think will continue to prevail. So, that's the good news. I hope I'm right. Yeah, I think you know, as we wrap up the year and sort of reflect on the learnings from the year and the strides that you've made, and the challenges that you've, you've overcome, and may still be working through and really celebrate. Celebrate, celebrate, celebrate. And if you need to just sit and reflect, you know, I'm not, I'm personally quite– reframe. I have a lot of room for, not room for improvement. What do people say? Whatever, you know what I mean, there's a lot of room for improvement for me to celebrate more. Celebrate the small wins, the big wins. And what ends up happening is when we don't celebrate, when we don't acknowledge the things that we've accomplished or the steps that we've made towards a specific goal or achieving something or getting better at a skill set, we forget that we did it at all, right? And so just, you know, take some time to really think about the things that you've accomplished and the ways that you've impacted people and the relationships that you've made, and the personal growth that you've experienced. Now is the time, I know we're gonna start to get into like, you know, New Year's resolutions and blah, blah, blah. End of the year, it's just a natural time for us to start reflecting. And I really encourage you to just be intentional about that, and carve out some time to do it, it is so worth it. It's so meaningful and it can really provide you a beautiful way to wrap up the end of the year and move forward with just a good energy around, feeling proud about what you've accomplished, and who you've become over the last 10 to 12 months. It's really cool and really beautiful to share this space with you. So, thank you for being here. I appreciate you. And I cannot wait to quote-unquote, see you in the next episode. Talk to you soon.
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In this episode, Pualena continues her exploration of effective product development by guiding listeners through the process of conducting user interviews. She emphasizes the importance of finding candidates to interview who represent your target audience. She also underscores the importance of empathy to understand user challenges without justification.
Once you've completed interviews, Pualena highlights the critical step of data analysis and how to identify patterns and pain points. She introduces a systematic technique of using digital boards to categorize feedback, making it easier for designers to make informed decisions. Pualena stresses the value of transparently sharing findings with your team to foster understanding and collaboration.
The episode concludes with Pualena encouraging an iterative approach to product development. This involves testing and creating new versions based on user feedback. This episode equips listeners with valuable insights into mastering user interviews for exceptional UX design, setting the stage for a user-centric approach to product development. This episode equips listeners with valuable insights into mastering user interviews for exceptional UX design, setting the stage for a user-centric approach to product development.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Hotjar: www.hotjar.comFullstory: www.fullstory.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaTranscript:
Pualena 00:00
So, we all those people in your life are like, Oh my god, she'll be really honest but I don't know if I can handle that. That's a great person to do a user interview with. The person who is so brutally honest that you are almost like, Oh, god, I just, they're gonna just make this thing, poke so many holes in it that I'm gonna have to start over.
Pualena 00:25
Hello, and welcome back to what is currently the Course Creators Academy podcast. And what will very soon become the Rebel Media podcast. And I am, I guess, announcing that officially today. I believe last week or the last episode, a couple of weeks ago, I may have introduced the idea of doing that, and I've decided to move forward with it. One thing that I've been considering is, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, please feel free to reach out to me on Instagram @RBL.Media. Do we call this the rebel media podcast? Or do we call it the RBL media podcast? So, this is a thing that has been sort of a surprise in my business. RBL is Rebel without the “ee’s”. That's just Rebel Media actually was a company name that was already taken. And after talking with, you know, consulting with certain people, people that worked in like the business registry office, et cetera, my business coach, we decided on RBL as sort of a play on the word rebel. And everyone's like, Oh, what does RBL stand for, and most people say RBL Media. So, a lot of people don't realize that that's what it stands for, which is cool. I don't mind I think, you know, at some point, I should develop an acronym. But we'll cross that bridge a little bit later. I wanted to let you know that that change is coming. I'm really excited about it. And this episode, I think, is also going to give us a little bit of a sneak peek into the types of content that I'm really excited to deliver. And, yeah, let's get into it.
Pualena 02:17
So, I recently participated in a boot camp for UX, which is User Experience. And if this is a phrase that's new-ish to you, I'm sure you've heard people throw around the phrase is UX UI, which stands for User Experience, User Interface. And it's, to me, this was a little bit of a newer concept, it's been around for a while, but I really did not dive too deeply into it. And from, you know, a design perspective, and it, you know, essentially, User Experience is exactly what it sounds like. And if you are a freelance designer or developer, you most likely have some process around this, even if it's not the traditional sort of industry-standard setup that UX professionals in big, you know, software development companies and big tech companies will utilize. But I did have the opportunity to learn that process. It's really interesting, very thoughtful, I understand why it exists. And I wanted to share a little bit of that with you. Because as we move into 2024, that is the direction that this business is going to go in, we are going to heavily focus on UX for our design clients and our design projects, and allow for more, I want to serve more entrepreneurs, more business owners who are innovating and creating really impactful products and services. And that goes beyond just course creators. Course creators are amazing and we will always serve course creators because we believe so strongly in the power of online courses, and more. So, let's dive into user experience from a more broad perspective. This can absolutely be applied to online courses. It absolutely should be applied to online courses. But that being said, what is UX? The one definition of this is essentially referring to the overall experience and satisfaction that a user has when they interact with a product, service or system. That's it. So, if you've ever sat down and spent time brainstorming your client journey, or what experience we want them to have as they move through our digital space or your storefront or indulge in your products or your services, you've done UX concepting of some sort, so like don't get too wrapped up in the technicality of it. That's essentially what it is. It encompasses user perceptions, emotions, responses, and the way that they engage with a particular design. And it does not matter, again, if it's a website, a mobile app, a physical product, any form of tech or interface, what we're shooting for is a positive user experience. Typically, that comes with ease of use, efficiency, effectiveness, and fulfilling the user's expectations, and hopefully exceeding them, right? So, UX actually, in and of itself, UX design is a field that focuses on creating designs and interfaces that prioritize this user side of user satisfaction and usability, through user-centered research, testing, and an iterative design process. Okay, so here's a few differences that might come up between the way that you currently serve your clients and the way that you might consider to serve your clients through a more UX-focused lens, is perhaps we don't do a whole lot of research. Research is a big part of UX. And if we think about it, research is a big part of any product lifecycle. I used to live in Shanghai, in China. And I, for a few months, worked at an international marketing firm. And our only job was to help U.S. companies enter the Chinese market. We worked with like Lay's potato chips, we have like, oh, gosh, it was a nut company, they had almonds and peanuts and cashews anyway, I can't remember. We'd like drink companies. So, we would get in touch with these American companies who wanted to have their products in the markets in China. And my main job was to write these beefy market reports, they were between like 60 and 100 pages, and I would go to these markets, I'd go to like little gas station type markets, big supermarkets and everything in between, and I would go and I would find all of their competitor products, and I'd look at their price points and their, the sizes and the labeling, and then they would, you know, the representatives from these companies would fly over to China, and we would take them to these lavish dinners, and we would go to these trade shows. And it was it was a really interesting job. And research was like more than half of what we provided to these people, because it's so important to understand your market, you need to understand your competitors. And I say that we're like, oh, there's no competition. I agree with that. I'm just going to call them competitors because that's something we can relate to. It's just other people who do something similar. Let's just leave it at that. Okay? But understanding, you know, what, where's your price ceiling? Right? Like, how much can you spend developing your product, before you're gonna push yourself so far into like this, this price bracket that nobody is gonna want to purchase from you? These words, there is a much more eloquent way to say what I'm saying I hope you guys understand. Right? So, you need to figure out like, what are your materials costing? And how do we want them? How do we want people to experience the product, right? What is your brand? What is your packaging? Do you use humour? Do you use beautiful aesthetics? Like what is that? So, even though we're talking about this in a website, digital format, it's important to understand that this is applicable across the board. Okay? And user experience requires research. Research, testing, and an iterative design process. User-centered, I forgot to say that.
Pualena 08:57
Okay, so now that we've beaten that dead horse and defined UX 400 times, let's talk. Today I want to talk specifically about one part of the research process of UX that I've been doing with a project recently, it's really fun. And you know, you don't need to go through a full UX Boot Camp certification program, to be able to apply some of these really useful strategies as you design your own products and services. Or if you're a freelancer, applying this to how you serve your clients. This particular research strategy is called user interviews. And it's something that is incredibly eye-opening. It's a way to essentially test the user experience that you're developing with real people as you develop it. So, you can do user interviews while you're in sort of that wireframing prototyping phase, all the way up until you have a working viable product and you want people to look at it and test it and give you feedback. And this can happen, you know, well into the post-deployment phase as well. So, you have a product or a page or website, it's out there in the world. And you're like, Huh, I wonder if I can make this better, do some user interviews, come back, re, you know, iterate on some new features and design. So, I wanted to walk through this a little bit, because I think it is extremely useful. A couple of things to keep in mind. When we do user interviews, we are essentially saying here, hold my baby, and then tell me about him or her. And they'll be like, well, your baby's kinda cute, little bit fussy, smells pretty good. Could smell better. I mean, you know, I don't really know what its personality is going to be. But it seems alright, I hang out with him again. But I, you know, I'm good for now. And you're like, What, you don't think this is the cutest baby in the world, you don't think that he or she is the smartest, most interesting, capable, wonderful baby and you don't want to spend all of your time with this baby? I just don't understand. That's essentially what we're doing when we're giving people our products. So, first and foremost, we want to come into these user interviews, knowing that people are here to give you feedback. I attended a UX conference two weeks ago, which is why all of this is sort of like top of mind for me as well. And UX is sort of a budding industry here in Hawaii, it's not, there's not a lot of tech here, there's not a lot of software development. If there is, people who are working in those spaces are living here, but they have remote positions, somewhere like Silicon Valley, New York, LA, you know, it's, anyway. It was very interesting to hear people's experiences and perspectives. And there was a guy who had been in the UX product development and design world for, you know, 25 or 30 years. And separately, he also was very, into yoga and breath work and meditation. And he led a session that brought both of those together. And one of the exercises that he taught was box breathing, which at this point, I think we've all heard of, essentially you are inhaling for four slow and steady counts, hold your breath in for four counts, exhale for four counts, and then hold it out for four counts. And you repeat that, you know, 3 to 10 times or whatever helps you to just sort of feel grounded and centered and ready to move into whatever you have coming up next. And he was like, you know, I recommend doing this before you go into your client meetings, before feedback sessions, maybe even after feedback sessions. So, I and it's actually phenomenal. I used it this past week before some user interviews and it was. And before some meetings, right, we sometimes you come into meetings, and we have these expectations and then when the expectations aren't met, we feel defeated or frustrated. And so like, it really is a very powerful tool. So, I just wanted to throw that little nugget in there, take it or leave it. But essentially, like, know that you're going into the user interviews with people who have been asked to provide feedback. And so, good people, the people who are good at providing feedback will give you both positive and constructive feedback. They might poke holes in something that you feel strongly about and that's the power of user interviews. We often iterate on things that we think are good ideas. Oh, I love this design. And when we design something we are, it's like artwork, right? We feel very drawn to it, we feel very connected to it, and we feel so proud of it. And I've been in user interviews where they're like, this feature does nothing for me, or this feature is very confusing, or I missed this completely. And it's something that I'd spent hours designing and I realized I had to scrap it. Maybe you can adjust it. But sometimes we have to get rid of things that we've worked very hard on. Sometimes things that we think are good ideas are bad ideas. And it just we just have to roll with that. You know, and the other thing is like, you may hear something from one person and they're like, I absolutely hate this. And then three other people say, Oh, I love this. So, there's a whole post-interview, organization structure and prioritization of new features and what yeah, anyway, so I digress. Let's talk about key reasons why these user interviews are important. And there are three. The first is empathy. Right? We are allowing ourselves to step into our users' shoes and understand their challenges and their motivations. How they experience things, how they use things, what's going on in their mind, right? If we're doing web design, walking, like letting them go through a page, and just observing, seeing what they click on, seeing what they read, how fast or slow they scroll through, what questions they have. And the thing about user interviews is we don't want to lead the witness, we can talk about specific questions that we want to have prepared. But we want to see how the users explore the product on their own, right? Or else it doesn't, it's not as meaningful. The second one, so it's empathy is number one. Number two, uncovering insights. You can uncover extremely valuable insights that might not be apparent through other research methods. Because you actually have real people in real life going through your product. I call it a product. I'm like interchanging website and product. You know what you have, you know what you offer. Take the language I'm using and apply what you need to what you have, okay, I just, I realized that that can be confusing. Insights, uncovering insights, is number two. Number three, validation. It's a way to validate your design decisions and ensure that they align with user expectations or not. Okay? Again, we are not here, what I don't want you to do is find a bunch of people who you know, will agree and tell you that everything is super beautiful and it's such a great product and a great website and I just love everything. Find people who you trust, trust their yes and trust their no. Trust that they'll say, this doesn't work for me. It's beautiful but doesn't work. Or could you add this here, because I feel like I would click here to find this feature and it's not there. You know, and people at this point, they know what they're used to. And they know what will be helpful and what will be frustrating. It's also they're not as close to it as you are, maybe they've never seen it before, which would be even better. And it's a really important step to get those perspectives.
Pualena 17:07
Alright, so now that we have a sort of foundational understanding of what these interviews are going to provide for you, let's talk about planning and preparing for these interviews. What we don't want to do is develop a page, call your friend say, Hey, will you jump on a quick Zoom with me and walk through this page? I'm saying this because I've done this. I was like, I'm gonna do user interviews today. And I didn't prepare and it was fine. They gave me some good information but I could have gotten a lot more, you can get a ton of good information from these sessions, and you want to show up prepared so that you can optimize and maximize that time. You want to start by defining your goals. Yes, this is an annoying first step, most first steps start by defining your goals and we usually skip that. This is very important. You want an objective when you come into these interviews. What do you want to learn? What specific problems or questions do you need answers to? A great question that we can ask someone is, what would you need to x? Right? So, I'm working on a project right now. And the project is designed to either collect donations and/or encourage the user to share. So, we can say, would you donate? If they say no, we can ask, what would you need for that to turn into a yes? Or you can say on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to donate? And they're like a 4. And you're like, what would it take to get to a 10? Maybe they say an 8. Cool, what would it take to get to a 10? Would you share this on a scale of 1 to 10? 7? What would it take to get to a 10? What do you need? Sometimes people won't know. Sometimes people might feel weird telling you. So, it's important to create a really, you know, welcoming, safe space. And that's why also it's important to find the right people, we’ll talk about this after. Anyway, define your goals, know what specific problems or questions you need answers to, and let's say you have a whole website with like a lot of different services and consultations and online courses and books that you can buy. You may want to do several rounds of interviews and focus on the one or two things that you would like to launch first or that you would like specific feedback on. So, if you're launching a course and you have a page, a sales page that's specific for your course you can ask, would you buy this course after visiting this page? On a scale of 1 to 10? How likely are you to buy it? No, I'm an 8. Cool, what would it take to get to a 10? Just for the course, right? You can do it for the book. You can do it, but I would get specific. It's definitely more helpful. But again, it depends on your goals. Recruitment is number two. Carefully select your interview participants. This is crucial, they should represent your target audience. If you don't know who your target audience is, it's very helpful to spend some time crafting your user personas. And if you are following, you know, top-to-bottom UX development strategy, you will have a user persona that comes before these interviews. It comes before the design phase, all of that. At this point, if you're listening to this podcast, my assumption, which could be wrong, is that you have a pretty clear idea of the audience that you serve. So, we want a sample of that audience. If you are a coach for dog owners, you don't want to find people who have cats and don't like dogs. Because their feedback will be very different. I mean, duh. But it's worth it's worth mentioning, right? Please be open to the feedback that can come from a difficult person. So, we all those people in your life are like, Oh, my God, she'll be really honest but I don't know if I can handle that. That's a great person to do a user interview with. The person who is so brutally honest that you are almost like, Oh god, I just, they're gonna just make this thing, poke so many holes in it that I'm gonna have to start over. You don't have to take action on every bit of feedback that you receive. But bring somebody in that will tell you the truth. Don't ask your mom, she loves you too much. Don't ask your spouse. Don't ask your siblings. Unless, you know like, yeah. Anyway, let's move on. Number three, create an interview guide. Ask Google, ask chat GPT. Honestly, prepare a list of questions to guide the interviewer. There are like standard UX questions I just gave you one a few minutes ago. These are typically open-ended questions. For example, can you walk me through your experience on our website? What feelings did you have as you scrolled through? What we don't want to do is say, did you want to click on the give button? Did you see that there? Go scroll back up, scroll back up. Right? This is an observation-based exercise. It's really so, when we're talking about websites, these are really easy because we can jump on a zoom, say, could you share your screen and walk through this site, and I'm just going to observe. And then you do that. And then you ask some open-ended questions. And you've got a big bucket of feedback to take action on or at least to, you know, analyze, and then decide how you want to prioritize your updates. So, yeah, create an interview guide, it's going to help you, right, as you do more interviews, you can change your guide, add to it, adjust it. It does help to have similar questions to ask each person because that serves as sort of a foundational baseline, where you can start to pick up patterns and themes. And number four, choose the right tools. Consider the tools that you're going to use for your interviews. Again, Zoom is great, right? In-person meetings are great. If you just have if you need to use like the telephone, and you don't do FaceTime, and you have a product and you want to watch people use it. If they can always tell you about it, it's better than nothing. You know, get creative, do what you can with what you got. Another really cool thing, if you're in person, like you're going out to dinner, and you guys are waiting for your food and you've already ordered and there's like a lull in the conversation, you can say like, Hey, can I show you something I'm working on, and then they bring out their phone. And then you can watch them go through it on the mobile view, which a lot of times on Zoom, we don't actually get. You can force them to do it by like narrowing the screen down, you know, but it's really helpful also to get people who are experiencing your digital product on all different platforms, different web browsers, different devices Have somebody do an iPad, Microsoft Surface, you know, an Android phone, an Apple phone. The other thing is very important. Consider the web browsers that you don't think are important. We launched a website. It looked great. We tested it. We tested it on Safari and Chrome and on mobile Safari and mobile Chrome and that's pretty much all I tested it on because I was like, what else do people use in 2023? Apparently, a lot of people use a lot of other things, okay, and this website, thankfully, looks decent on most other web browsers. But someone uses Firefox, and it looked absolutely crazy. It did not look even like the same site. Now, you can use tools like, write this down, Hotjar, Fullstory, these are tools that allow you to see statistics on how people are using your site. So, it sort of serves as a user interview-ish type tool, because you can, like watch recordings of people scrolling through the site, you can see where they click. Sometimes you can even see where they come from, you can see where their location is, geographically, if you want to know if you have clients or visitors in Australia versus U.S. and Japan, you know, it's, it's not meant to be creepy. It's meant to give you data. And something that can be very interesting is what platforms are using to see your you know, what, if sometimes, it'll tell you if it's mobile or desktop, and then it'll tell you what web browsers they're on. So, perhaps this person who looked at it on Firefox is the only person in the world who uses Firefox still? Or maybe they're not, right? So, it's really important to start to gather this kind of data.
Pualena 26:17
Okay, let's talk about the interview itself. Like, you know, it can be one thing if you're talking to your friends. If you want to interview your friends, you can. My recommendation, again, is to find somebody who's a little less biased in your favor. And, you know, say like, I have this project, my target audience is this, does anybody know someone who might be a good fit for a user interview? And you know, post that on Instagram or Facebook or ask you know, a trusted friend, networking group, and talk to people who are strangers. Who fit your target audience. And here's some tips. Number one, build rapport. Do not just jump right into the interview if you don't know the person. It's, I mean, yeah, you can get to business. You don't want them to feel like you're wasting their time. Take like two to five minutes, max, but have casual conversation to help them feel comfortable and to learn a little bit about them. Right? We want to know, you know, for your course about dogs, does this person have a puppy an older dog? Is this their first dog? Have they always had a dog? Do they have multiple dogs? Where did they get their dog? Oh, you got it at the Humane Society. That's awesome. I know. I love, I'll only adopt strays as well. Where do you live? Oh, I live in New York City. Oh, wow. So, do you live in an apartment? Yeah. Oh, so you have to you know, can't just open the door and let the dog out, you have to walk them up and down the street. Right? Yeah. But it's nice. You know, I get to talk to the people. I like my doorman, right? So, you start to have these, like, kind of small talky conversations. But it gives you background information that can be really useful. Right? Maybe in your course, you talk a lot about letting your dog out in the yard. And you realize that a lot of people in your target audience live in apartments and they can't do that. Right? And you learn that from small talk. So, there you go. Okay. ask open-ended questions, we talked about this. Encourage the participants to share their thoughts. A great question can be, What do you mean by that? Does this navigation bar work for you? Kind of I mean, it's a little confusing. What do you mean by that? Okay, get them to talk, get them to give you more information. Listen actively, and take notes. When you take notes, you're actually trying to listen, sometimes, especially on Zoom, I have this weird habit of like looking them in the eye because they feel like that's not rude. Like it's like eye contact. And if I am typing or writing, I'm looking down or at the screen next to them, and then I'm being rude. And eye contact isn't real on Zoom. And we have to remember that and we can even say, I really appreciate you answering these thoroughly, I'm going to be taking notes on what you say. So, if I'm not, you know, looking up or if it doesn't look like I'm paying attention, I'm just looking at my notebook. So, you can let them know so you're not being rude. But sometimes when I'm looking at people on Zoom, is when I tend to zone out. So, actively taking notes is helpful for me. Maybe it's helpful for you. Okay, number four is empathize. Show empathy, when they share challenges and experiences. This will help you to build trust with them. And this is something if you need to write empathy on the wall in front of you when you do these interviews, do it because the last thing we want to do is defend our choices. Right? Oh, you know, I don't really like this purple here. Oh, but purple that's supposed to represent like the, I don't know. It's a terrible example. I can't think of anything. But we don't want to like, give justifications for things that aren't working for them. Because the whole idea why they're giving you this feedback is because you want their honest opinion. So, we want to listen, we want to empathize. Thank you so much for sharing, I definitely understand. Tell me more about that. Right? Always help them to feel as comfortable as they can. Okay. All right, let's move now into the post-interview phase. We need to analyze the data. And this, like, don't skip this, you have all of your lists of notes, and you're like, cool, I'm just gonna take this and take action. Nope, nope, nope. The analysis is just as important as the feedback itself. What you want to do is create a space that helps you to identify what features or parts of these pages, or websites or products need to be tended to first, if at all. So, we want to transcribe, we want to summarize the interviews and make summaries of key points. And the thing we want to do is look for patterns and trends. And you can do this in a bunch of different ways. Like most old school, and way that works phenomenally well. If you're taking handwritten notes, then go get a highlighter or two, and start to highlight themes and patterns. Okay? I like to use like a mural board or a fig jam board, and break things up into themes, and then create little stickies with pieces of feedback and drop them into the themes. So, for example, we built this page, and the page has this beautiful long scrolling experience, where different pieces of information sort of appear in these animations as you scroll. And a lot of people commented on the length of the scroll. Some people like it, oh, it's so nice, I get to have a journey and I get to like, slow down and relax and read this and other people are like this is way too long, there's no way that I'm going to scroll all the way through just to get to the bottom of this. So, the theme is page scroll. And then you drop everything that anybody says on a little card and you put it in the box, the page scroll box. Maybe you have like a branding, you know, typography, is the font legible? Do you like it? Does it match? So, any theme that starts to come up over and over again, you start to create these boxes, and then you drop the feedback in those boxes. And that gives you a great visual of like, where people are actually really focused. And where multiple people had things to say? So, maybe one person commented on the colors, but ten people commented on the fonts. There's something with those fonts, either they love it, and we should do more of it, or it's hard to read and we need to change it immediately. Because everybody talks about it. Right? Identify pain points. Where our users struggling over and over and over. That's probably a great place to start with your updates and iterations. Ideation. Number three, ideation. Use the insights to brainstorm potential solutions and design changes. This allows you to make changes that are founded on data rather than changes that in your head, you're like, I'm going to change this because I think that's the right thing to do right now. And the last one, share findings, if you have a team or a stakeholder, transparency here is really key because it allows people to see why you are requesting the changes that you're requesting, especially if you're on a team. Sometimes as leaders or as people who are very close to these things like design concepts and the decision-making spaces. And then we say like, okay, team, let's change all of this. And they're like, are you kidding? That's going to take hours, and we just did it? And you're like, yep, but it needs to be changed. So, let's go and they just roll their eyes and walk away. Instead, you could say, I know, I thought this was a great idea. And you know, we built it. We thought it would work. However, I just did ten user interviews and every single person said that it was too hard to read. So, unfortunately, we have to change it on every page in every location. Oh my gosh, that sucks, we worked so hard on this, but I totally get it. Okay, let's go. Right? Your team also wants what's best for your users. So, if you clue them in on that decision-making process, they will most likely be on board. Okay? All right. Last one, iterate, and test. You have your user insights. It is time to iterate. That just means, do it, build it, test it. And testing is a whole thing in and of itself. We can talk about it in another episode if you're interested. It is also a step that we often either skip or abbreviate to the point where, you know. Testing isn't that fun. Like, I don't know, is there a way to make it fun, I think it could be really fun to like test the thing you just built, right? It's like it came to life. So, you've identified things that need to be updated. Maybe somebody needs a menu where there was none before. So, we build the menu, we have to make sure that all of the links work, and that they go to the right pages or the right section on the page. Do we like the way that when we click on this menu item that just drops us further down the page? Do we like the way that it drops us down? Or does it just instantly go there and cuts to that section? And it's not a very good transition, right? So, you want to test and potentially, in that testing phase, you might be doing more interviews. Before you know, if you're doing a prototype before you actually pull the trigger on going into development, maybe you want to ask a few people, hey, does this change satisfy the need that you expressed to me in that interview the other day? And they can say yes or no, then you're not wasting resources on development if you didn't nail it, right? So, and like these interviewees, we, they may become your biggest fans. Usually, people say, like, you know, let me know, if you want to jump on again, I'd be happy to give you more feedback, when you make changes, or, you know, a lot of times people start to feel a little bit invested in the project because they've been a part of it. Something I didn't mention was compensation. So, you know, if you feel like you want to, if you have the resources for it, and you want to either offer, you know, some sort of like, thank you or compensation for these interviews, make it clear that like, they'll get, if you are going to pay someone, you know, you get paid, regardless of the type of feedback, we're not paying you to just validate our decisions, we really want to make sure that this is a viable product. And so your honesty is appreciated. Yeah, those are definitely options. And I encourage you to start doing user interviews, start to build a pool of people that you can call on when you want to test things or ask questions. It's a really solid way to deploy new or updated features or pages or entire websites that can launch at a really high level. You already know that a lot of the bugs are going to be worked out. And so when you do those public launches, especially if you're pushing ad spend towards them, that you're launching something that is viable. It's people understand it, they enjoy the experience of it. All right. I'm going to wrap this up here. Thank you so much for listening and for making it this far. I will keep you posted on the rebrand of the podcast and I am grateful that you are here. We'll see you next time.
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Pualena introduces the concept of agile project management for digital products, specifically for online course creation. She discusses the strategy behind the methodology, the tools available to use, and the benefits of using an agile method. You’ll hear how organizing your workflow, tracking your time, and creating an adaptable framework helps you serve your clients better and sets your business up for long-term success.
Some of the themes Pua shares in this episode include prioritizing your ideas in a backlog, breaking tasks into smaller chunks to show progress, and tracking your time to create more freedom. She also highlights how an organized system can help entrepreneurs, especially creatives, avoid and manage challenges such as scope creep and setting boundaries. And, for listeners who stay until the end, you’ll have an opportunity to provide input on the scope of the podcast in 2024!
Resources discussed in this episode:
ClickUpTrelloJIRASalesforceAsanamonday.comBasecampGoogle Calendar--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript:
Pualena 00:00
You want to make sure that the setup is intuitive for you and give yourself time to learn the platform, learn the features, do a free trial. And once you've decided on one that works for you, make sure that you're then able to communicate that to anybody that joins your team.
Pualena 00:24
Hello, and welcome back to the Course Creators Academy podcast, I'm your host Pua. And today, we are talking about something a little bit different. I have been very lucky to have a sort of mentorship relationship with somebody in the product development space, and project management space. And I've been learning some really, really cool tips and tricks and strategies on project management. And, you know, since I miss solo entrepreneur, I have not really been on any, you know, product development or design teams, at least not from a, I guess, corporate or traditional standpoint. So, my experience in this space has very much been from a freelancer standpoint, which does typically sort of take on some of the traditional project management roles and strategies, but it's very flexible. And the only people that I really need to be accountable to are my clients, I don't necessarily have a design team, a development team, a project manager, or I actually do have a project manager, I don't know if anybody listening is a past or current client, but I do have a Kelly, and I hope that every business owner can find a Kelly because she is out of this world phenomenal. She is a project manager, client support, all things tech troubleshooting, she's amazing. So I do have one person that I sort of internally report to. Other than that, you know, it's, it doesn't necessarily… the only person who, who is affected, if my internal organization is not super, super stringent, is me. As long as you know, the client work gets done, things are, you know, tested and they're of quality, it can sort of stay in my head, right. So if we think about it, if I'm building a page, and I know all of the things I need to do, I need to test, etc., I just do it, because nobody needs to understand where I am in the project other than, you know, the regular check-ins with the client. So, in our project management platform, we typically have four columns, we have to do in progress, in review, and done. And any task or ticket can sort of migrate between those statuses. And we can leave notes, you know, Kelly, and I will drop comments to each other. Sometimes our clients are also in our project management platform, which happens to be ClickUp, I highly recommend it, I will drop a link in the shownotes. If you're interested in checking out. ClickUp It is a very robust, very powerful, very easy to use, easy to learn, and beautifully customizable platform. And I'm happy to share how we use that. But it's, we have this sort of very simple setup. Now I have been coached by somebody who has been a part of several corporate-level product teams, and she's teaching me about something called Agile Project Management. And so I thought it would be really interesting to apply that to something like agile project management for digital products, and more specifically for online course development. And when we take a broader look at what this is, it's, you know, a way to organize your tasks. And whether you're developing a product, a course, a book, a podcast, you know, social media campaign. You'll all have these, this is useful for everything that you're creating within your business. But this is the Course Creators Academy podcast and so I thought it would be interesting to apply it to the course space and just really do a very deep dive into what this is. And I will caveat this by saying agile project management is a very general term for something that is very, there are many ways to set up an agile project flow and agile workflow. There are many structures and it really depends on the type of project you have, the type and size of your team and the training that you are, able are interested in sort of investing in and investing in for your team. Because this is, you know, something that if there's just one person who's not bought into the system, the whole thing will, will fail. And this is true for any project management system or platform.
Pualena 5:19
Quick story, I used to work for Yelp. I was an intern when I was in grad school. And the, it was very interesting and sort of humbling, because a lot of business owners would come up to me when I was working these marketing booths at like, street, you know, food truck fares, or you know, I'm, I'm an intern, I'm 22. And people come up to me, they're like, I hate Yelp. Like, well, could I offer you this cool little, like, dog bandana. And I can let my manager know your feedback. But you know, we didn't develop the app, we're just here to spread the word to the people. I don't know it was interesting. But I, I mentioned that because we used I'm not sure if they still use it, the CRM of choice for Yelp at that time, which I think was like 2013 was Salesforce. And I was expected to go into Salesforce with every interaction, every new business that I came across every business owner that I met, and input their contact information and details about our conversation, what they do, and how we, you know, what, what they did with us or for us, or what we did for them. And I realized very quickly that this only works if everybody uses it. Otherwise, your day-to-day workflow becomes very inefficient. And you're asking questions. And the reason why you're asking the questions is the answers aren't where they're supposed to be. So, when we talk about things like meetings, we want meetings with other people to be a high-value activity. When you are having a meeting with your team, or your clients or any collaborative space, this should be full of, you know, high-level conversations, and brainstorming and idea, ideating. And all of those things that happen. And that's sort of the magic that evolves when humans come together and start to create together and bring their creative energies together. When meetings are less efficient, is when they are sort of just regurgitating things that could be an email or you know, a list of updates, you should be able to read updates. And that's where solid project management platforms and systems and processes come into place where if you have a project management flow, that is maximized, maximally efficient, and effective, people are in there making updates at such high detail, that you can go in and see exactly where the project is, and exactly where each to do task or item or ticket is at any given moment. And it's essentially a live up to date snapshot. So that in these meetings, you can ask high-level questions. Hey, I see this ticket is here in the blocked column. And it's been there for two days, let's talk about the blockers that you're experiencing, and how we can move this ticket through. Right? That's really good brainstorming material for an internal project team meeting, not tell me where we are with this project. And believe me, I have been there, it's really, really easy to get there. And it's really, really, it takes some time, I like to say, you really have to slow down and fine-tune this process in order to speed up it's worth it because it makes your process and your entire workflow more efficient, but you do have to dedicate the time and energy to transitioning to this workflow, and putting the practice in and sort of holding your team accountable and giving them the resources that they need to be successful with it. All that being said, what exactly is an agile workflow or agile project management?
Pualena 09:23
So, understanding agile project management may mean to understand where it came from, and at the very foundation, it is an iterative and very flexible approach that originated in the realm of software development. Right. So, it is built on the Agile Manifesto, which prioritizes individuals and interactions, working solutions, and customer collaboration. So, in essence, it's about embracing change, right? And how do we put change into a framework? Right, software development is innovative. Innovation. It's it signifies change, right? We are changing the environment in which this software is going to live, we are changing the way that it impacts its users. And when we go through these development cycles, what we're doing is recommending change based on a number of factors, whether it's feedback, whether it's testing, whether it's data brought in from, like, observe the way that people are using specific platforms, or if your software already exists, you can poll your existing customers to see where their pain points are or where they're getting stuck, where there's opportunity to shift and change. For course creators, right, we are innovating as well. We are creating courses because we want and see a need for something in the market that either doesn't exist or doesn't exist in the way that you envision your course to serve. Right. If I’m a fitness trainer. Here we go again with that example. There are, I would guess, millions of online courses about fitness, fitness trainers, CrossFit people, gymnastics people, yoga instructors, people who do foam rolling and stretching, it is anything that you want is already out there. It already exists. Why do I need to make another course on tabatas? Buy my course you get 20 Tabata workouts for $9.99? Why do I think people need that? Because I believe I have a framework, I have a solution to a gap in the market. I'm creating change. Hopefully, I'm creating a little bit of competition for the people that are already out there. Because my product is so good that we may take customers from other people, that's business. We're not necessarily going out and like individually poaching people, but somebody may resonate with the way that you teach tabatas more than they resonate with the person that they're already purchasing a Tabata course from, you know, this is a terrible example. But, you understand what I'm saying. So, I digress. Agile, project management is about embracing, and formulaically migrating through a proposed change. Okay. So, when we talk about online course development, we want to talk about all of the components of creating your course, that may need to go through some sort of transformation, whether it's creating it for the first time, updating existing content, getting feedback, et cetera, et cetera. I am going to sort of go back and forth between traditional agile setups. And what we probably will do as single entrepreneurs or small business owners, because while you probably don't need to be as detail-oriented for the way that you set this up, it can be very helpful to keep you on track. And more importantly, should you bring somebody on your team, whether it's a video editor, a content developer or an admin position, we want them to be able to jump right in. And with a few training sessions, deeply understand how you've set up your agile project management, and how they can just jump in right away and start using it. So the way that I've learned to set this up, is we've been using Trello, between me and my coach, although things go from Trello for our learning purposes, and I will move them into ClickUP. The platform doesn't matter. It's the system that you use. So we've created these statuses. And we've got essentially a prioritized backlog. So that is your brain dump, you are just figuring out what needs to get done. And you throw it there, right? It doesn't necessarily have a prioritized order yet. I will get there. But if you have anything that comes across your plate, either you're starting a project and you know, these are the things that you must do in order for this thing to launch. Or as you're building and things come up or as people are giving you feedback, you continue to add things to your backlog. Now every day you want to get in the habit of prioritizing this backlog, otherwise it will things will get lost. There are methods to prioritizing which I won't get into here because that's probably another episode in itself. But you do want to start to figure out what your framework for prioritization is, I believe we've talked about the Eisenhower decision matrix on here, which is essentially, the act of assessing your tasks based on urgency and importance or lack thereof. So that is a legitimate way to look at prioritizing your backlog. But for now, I'll trust that you understand how to make things a priority, whether it's energetic output, whether it is urgency dependency, again, we can talk about that more in detail. So you're going to, it will become a prioritized backlog. From there, essentially, ideally, you'll take the ticket or the task at the top, and bring it into a column called in progress. It is what it says: you're working on it. And it will stay here until you're ready to test. So if you're creating your course content, drag that over into in progress. And if you need to break that up into smaller tickets, do that, right, because we want to be able to see progress. So if you are creating written course content in the outline form, you want to you know, under that ticket, you'll say Create Course Outline, okay, in progress, then you'll move it down the line of the statuses and to done eventually. Then from there, maybe you need to create your video scripts. From there, you need to film your videos from there, you need to edit your videos, you need to create your worksheets, right? So all of this falls under creating your course content. But you do want to chunk it down a) so that you understand within that larger framework what needs to happen. And then also so that you can visually show progress to somebody who may jump in and look at this, right, because if they just see, you're still working on your course content, and it's been in progress for six days, that's a it's sort of a red flag, like what is keeping you stuck here, versus if they see that it's broken down into mini chat mini tasks, or mini chunks that are slowly being worked on and completed. You're showing progress. The next status here is blockers. So let's say we are in the middle of recording our videos, and your camera breaks. You drag that into blockers and your blocker is camera broke. And you need a solution. Okay, so anything in the blockers column? It's also a red flag of like, how are we going to troubleshoot this? And what do we need to do to get it back in progress ASAP, because anything in blockers is basically paused. It's not moving forward until there's a solution. So when you start your day, and you're looking at, you know, all of the tasks that you have ready to tackle, you may consider starting with the blockers just to make sure that you have eyeballs on it to say like this is troubleshooting in progress, or I haven't looked at this, it's still in the blockers and nothing can move forward or this task can't move forward until I figure it out. And then creating tasks that help you to do that.
Pualena 18:08
The next status is in QA or in UAT. QA is quality assurance. And a lot of times you know, this is a very common phrase in the software development world. But it may not be something that you're familiar with as a solo entrepreneur, somebody who may just be entering the course creation space, the digital space. And it is a very important step. Essentially, you're testing. UAT is user acceptance testing, same idea. They have slightly different definitions. But we are going to simply look at this as testing your product. So, when you've got your course content created, when you've built it into your platform, you want to test it thoroughly to make sure that every bit of this user experience is smooth. Until you've thoroughly tested you should not take anything to market. And a very key step in this process is to clearly identify what those steps in the testing are that make your product accessible or acceptable to take to market, right? So, oftentimes this is referred to as the acceptance test criteria. And you absolutely cannot pass this through to the Done column, which essentially is like the launch column the to you know, deliver to market column until all of those test criteria have been checked off. And these are criteria that you ideally want to identify at the start of the creation of this task. So if you are creating a task for developing, you know, the back end or the customer facing online course, area, you have all of these criteria that you want to include in that maybe you have smaller tickets within that larger task. In the creation of that task, identify the test criteria, I want the clients to be or my students to be able to receive announcements by email, I want them to see this, be able to see the status of where they are in the course, I want to send them reminders, if they haven't logged in for 30 days, you know, all of these things. If these are parts of the UX that you have envisioned for your course, they must be identified in detail, in the test criteria of those tickets. Okay.
Pualena 20:56
I don't want to lose you. And I know that this may, I might be starting to use information or language that is it's feels a little bit foreign. It's okay, it's sort of, it felt foreign to me as well until about a week ago. And it's, you know, language that, again, the product development industry is familiar with. And, so just in in a best practices situation, should you take your digital product to another company or start to talk to other people, maybe they want to invest in it, maybe they want to purchase a license, they may use similar terminology. So it's to your advantage to just at least let it become a little bit familiar to you. You don't have to use it in your day-to-day processes and efforts. Okay, where were we? We touched on tools just a little bit. Yeah, again, this is not a one-size-fits-all all methodology. So, you know, if you want it to geek out on this a little bit, and look at different agile workflows, and what they are, what they mean how they're set up, you may want to look at strategies like Scrum, Kanban, and Lean are sort of three of the commonly used methodologies. Each of them are a little bit different. And they have a different place in the overall sort of marketplace of design and development. But each one, you may find one, you're like, wow, I really, I really jive with how this is set up. And then you may look at one and you're like, this does not make any sense to me at all. So you know, watch some YouTube videos to get a little bit of visual representation of what each of these may include. But it really can help you to get organized to really get a good feel for your flow for some of the like design and development sprint that you might want to do. And it's really, really helpful when we look at overall big-picture planning. You know, a lot of people are doing 2024, content calendar planning, and having a very, very solid project management system can be really helpful in creating a content calendar that is realistic based on all of the things that you have going on. So one thing that I want to mention, within every single ticket or task or to do item, we want to talk about time, in two ways. We want to be able to estimate about how long it's going to take us to complete this task. And then we also to the best of our ability, want to start to see, in actuality, how long did this take me? Now this was one that I really had to, like, swallow my pride on. And that's because I was always sort of proud that I am an entrepreneur, and I don't have to report my time to anybody. I don't have to trade my dollars for hours. And so never again, do I have to track my time for anything ever. You know, and it was it's not that. I'm not that opposed to it. You know, I I'm not that bratty about it, but it was sort of triggering for me because I spent all of this time and effort really creating this, this lifestyle that on the surface could allow me to work anywhere to you know, have flexible hours and, and all of this and then all of a sudden I'm like so you want me to track my time like absolutely not. And what I realized is when we track our time, we are actually creating more freedom for ourselves. We can very clearly say based on historical data of tracking similar tasks, I know that a task like this will take me about this long, I can schedule it in, I can estimate when I will have it done. And I can plan accordingly. Which means if I want to, you know, go surfing one morning from 10am to 12pm, I know that when I come back and I get back to my desk about 1pm, that I won't be able to either complete this task that I've realized, you know, over time, will take me three hours, or I won't have time today to complete this task. And it's a very, like, it's a yes or no. And if I'm planning my week, I know that I'm surfing on that day. And so I'm not going to quote to the client that I will have it done today, I'm going to quote that I'll have it done, let's say today's Wednesday, I'm gonna quote that I'll have it done on Friday. And I will deliver it on Thursday. Right, we want to over… no, under promise and over deliver. One of the worst things you can do. And I've been guilty of this, and I've actually lost clients from this is saying, I will deliver this to you on this day, and then defaulting on that and not doing it. If you are going to do that if you need to life happens, I get it. Communicate, holy smokes. And again, I definitely learned this one the hard way. We are all a work in progress. And if you resonate with this, it's not too late. This does not define you, you get to keep improving who you are and how you work every single day.
Pualena 26:33
Okay, whoa, that was a tangent. Let's get back on track. Here we go. Let's talk. So we talked about tools, right? Again, like, explore what works for you. Here are some of the most commonly used project management platforms, it doesn't mean that these are any better or worse than things that I may not list off that you may be excited to try or that you're already using. ClickUp. I think it's like the industry standard. If it can literally fit anybody's needs. They do have a pretty great free option. There is Trello, obviously, JIRA. So Trello is a product of JIRA, and JIRA is a they have a lot of project management tools. So you might want to just check them out. Asana is one that I've used in the past, and I know many people use it, there is Monday.com, there's I got there so many. My brain is like overwhelmed. There's also like, like, Apple has free ones, Google Calendar, you have tasks that you can create, like, you can use a spreadsheet, right? It doesn't, the platform platforms are designed to make these processes easier. Things like ClickUp actually have agile workflows built into some of their templates, which is really cool. But it's not complicated to set up. And what matters is that the system works for you. Okay, it just takes some some playing with I will say two, there is a little bit of a learning curve. So if you are a solo entrepreneur, I would give yourself a month to try these platforms, there's Base Camp, I forgot about that. You want to make sure that the setup is intuitive for you and give yourself time to learn the platform, learn the features, do a free trial. And once you've decided on one that works for you, make sure that you're then able to communicate that to anybody that joins your team. So, anybody that may, you may need to train on that platform, just make sure that you understand it deeply enough to be able to communicate how you want people to use it.
Pualena 25:41
All right, just a couple of things to keep in mind, and reasons why this workflow can work so well. So, we're going back to the framework of creating this around or for an online course. Something that we like to do as entrepreneurs and creative people is continue to add, add, add, add, add ideas, and features and resources and worksheets and downloads. And this adds to the scope of the project. And even if we don't have clients, if we are our own client, we can impose scope creep on ourselves. So scope creep is something that let's say like, it happens to us a lot actually, as web designers, especially for people who are you know, we're web designers for online course creators and so we do our initial call. Cool, you need a website, you need one course you need a funnel to your free lead magnet perfect those are the deliverables will define what each of those include. And let's do this. As we build Oh, instead of a PDF, I want a mini course for my lead magnet. Okay. All right, technically, that does not infringe on the contract. So okay, we'll build that. Oh my gosh. You know, as I build my big course, and as I build out this mini-course, that sort of is supposed to feed into the big course, I realized that the big course actually needs to be three small courses. But that's okay, right? Like we've already done the content, all you need to do is break it up. Okay, well, I guess Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then we'll actually each of the small courses also needs its own sales page and its own sales funnel, can you break that over, you know, and so it just becomes this, this monster that's never done, and it never ends. And it's always the fault of the service provider, not setting their own boundaries. Yes, as a client, you should be mindful of this and not take advantage of people who just say “yes” to you. But that happens, right? That was a kind of an extreme example, usually, it's a little bit more subtle. And perhaps both parties don't even realize it's happening until you have all of these new deliverables in place. And this happens, because you don't have a solid sort of visual plan and specific tickets on what exactly you need to be working on from start to finish, and timelines. So due dates, estimated time for delivery, all of these things really, really matter. So when you set up your agile workflow, you know, these are exactly the things that I'm focusing on here. If you want to add to that, you're adding new tickets, and you were very intentional about making sure you know where that fits in, if that's going to cause a delay in your launch plan. Like you're going in and you are making those adjustments, like manually so that you are have full awareness around the impact of adding to your plan. Okay.
Pualena 31:48
Okay. Yeah, I am just looking through my notes. I think that covers it, I feel like that was a lot. And I hope that this was valuable. I hope it didn't confuse you. Again, there are so many resources out there that walk you through agile workflows, it can be a little bit jarring. And like, just, it's a different way to look at a project and create a system around a project. And if you're somebody, I think creative people tend to not be super like, organized, for lack of a better word, right? We kind of like to fly by the seat of our pants, and say ”oh I love this idea and this idea and this idea.” And so what I encourage you to do, if this feels like you, that sounds like you, and you often find yourself craving a little bit of structure, and you know, things like structure and deadlines will actually help you to stay accountable and enhance your creative energy and your creative flow. Knowing that you're not going to stress about all the things that you keep in your head. And I'm with you on this, we can find a balance, right, we can figure out how to take something so strictly structured as an agile workflow and create a space that gives you just enough structure to feel like you're in control and that you have sort of start and end each of these projects instead of these ongoing brain children that never actually come to fruition. It allows you to actually follow through with what you say you're going to do, which you know how many people are out there? Oh, I started writing this course. I started filming this course. And I never finished it. I started writing my book, never finished it. I thought about launching a podcast and I got like my cover image designed by someone on Fiverr. And I bought a microphone and headphones and a, you know, nice camera, but I never actually started my podcast, right? So, it keeps us accountable and sort of nudges us along our proposed timelines. Especially for people who are solo entrepreneurs. We need something because we don't have someone to push us. Right.
Pualena 34:19
Okay, well, thank you for listening to this if you found this valuable. Oh, something I wanted to post anybody who is kind enough to stay all the way to the end of this episode. We are wrapping up 2023. How that is happening. I don't even know like did this year, not just start. It is past mid-October and it's just blowing my mind. And I am sort of thinking about the pivots and the shifts and the ways that I wanted to align things in the new year. And one of my themes for next year is simplicity and alignment. And I have a business RBL Media RBLmedia.co is my website and I have the course creators Academy podcast. And this all made sense because I was a digital media creator and designer and developer for people who have online courses. And I am shifting my target audience, sort of broadening it just a bit. And would love to also broaden the audience and broaden the focus and the sort of impact that this podcast has to include maybe like people who don't have courses or want courses, or are course creators. I love talking with business owners, from all different industries who are innovating and are creative and who are rebels in their space. And so I'm considering changing the name to either the RBL Media Podcast or Rebels in Business Podcast or something that aligns my brand, brings in that rebellious energy. Because I think business owners are innovators and as innovators inherently we are rebels because we think outside the box and so I would love your thoughts on that any sort of initial reactions that you have, as I talk through that with you hear any feedback, any ideas that you have around what that could be? And I am excited to bring you along that journey with me. So, on that note, keep crushing and I will talk to you soon.
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In this episode, Pua dives into the critical decision of choosing the ideal platform for hosting online courses. She emphasizes the importance of user experience, urging listeners to eliminate any potential roadblocks that might hinder clients from achieving their desired transformations. While Pua expresses a personal preference for Kajabi, she acknowledges that it may not be the perfect fit for everyone and briefly touches on alternative platforms like Thinkific, Teachable, Podia, and others. The episode provides invaluable insights into factors such as scalability, the need for an all-in-one solution, and the significance of marketing tools and analytics in ensuring a seamless client experience.
Throughout the episode, Pua underscores the pivotal role of content in driving client success. She encourages listeners not to allow the choice of a platform to impede their content creation process. Pua also offers practical advice on testing content before committing to a platform. The episode concludes with an invitation for listener feedback on potentially rebranding the podcast to align with Pua's business, RBL Media, and a special offer from Kajabi for interested listeners.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Course Platforms
ThinkificTeachableKajabi PodiaUpload Courses (takes % of sales)
UdemySkillshareCourse Creation Features
Click FunnelsWordPressLifterLMSAnalytics
HotJarFullStory--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript
Pualena 00:00
Think about your user experience. Think about any roadblocks that might come up that keep your clients from getting to that transformation and depending on the industry, and then the service that you provide, maybe the smallest hindrance can make or break their experience and their ability to get that transformation that they desire and to achieve the results that they want.
Pualena 00:30
Hello, and welcome back to the Course Creators Academy podcast. I'm your host Pua. And today, we are talking about course platforms. This is a question I get a lot. And usually, it's, it actually comes up in casual conversation, oh, hey, what do you do? Oh, you know, I do web design for course creators, oh, my gosh, I'm thinking of having a course or I have a course or I have a lot of content that I want to turn into a course or I have a book that I want to turn into a course. And so it's almost like, you know, people want to be an author, people want to write a book, people want to have a course it's become that thing. I want to, I'm planning on launching a podcast soon, I'm planning on writing a book soon I'm planning on writing, or creating a course. And what the sort of hang-up for people is, or what a perceived hang-up is, is not knowing what platform to use. I say that because it's the same thing with podcasting. It's the same thing with writing a book. What do you need to write a book? I mean you just start writing it on whatever you have, wasn’t Harry Potter started on a napkin? Same with a podcast, most computers come with recording software. You know what I am recording this for you on GarageBand. Do you know what GarageBand is? It's the free recording software that has come on every Mac laptop in the last 15 years. So, I say that because having your course platform decided on, is a great step. But don't let that stop you from beginning to create your course content. Okay, so let's say that you're like, got it, I'm good. I just want to know what the platform is that you want to recommend or what to look for. And I will say like, if you've listened to this podcast for a while, you know, that my course creation platform of choice is Kajabi. It has been the, I've sort of been like a loyal Kajabi user and I am involved in their community, a lot of my clients come from the Kajabi community, I've built my business around that platform. And so I do have a little bit of a bias towards it. And I feel really good about that decision. I know that not every platform is perfect. I know some platforms out there, offer different features, they may be better than Kajabi at certain things and worse than Kajabi at certain things or their focus may be different. But overall, if you are, and I'm gonna say, a somewhat established business owner, Kajabi could be a good fit for you. I don't think Kajabi is for everybody. So, it's interesting, because I have people who look at my website, and they're like, Wow, what did you build that on? I was like, it's built on Kajabi. It's like, my website is actually built on Kajabi’s like old builder, which is we can go there and in another episode, but it's, you know, people are like, Oh my gosh, maybe I should check out Kajabi. And I'm like, Oh, cool. Do you have a course in mind? Are you going to do like a membership? What do you do? And they're like, No, I just want a nice website. Cool, then definitely Kajabi is not for you. Because it's very, it's if you just get it for a website. Number one, I love you Kajabi. But you don't have the best website builder. I just know how to use it really well. And it's expensive. If it's just for a website, and you're not using any of the other features like you are wasting your money. What I will say because a lot of people do say oh Kajabi is way too expensive. There's no way I can afford that. And if you are a startup, or if you are just sort of like you have ideas in your head about wanting to do a course. Don't sign up for Kajabi yet, you're just not ready. On the other side of that if you are ready to start like moving on your course. There is sort of power in like knowing you're paying for a platform and you want to use what you're paying for because it is a bigger investment depending on where you're at. I also like you want to be bringing in the number of clients that makes it feel like that investment is not going to like sink your business. So Kajabi starts at 150 a month, that is the like basic plan, if you pay annually, I think that drops down to 120 a month, something like that. And then it goes up from there. Now, if you have piecemealed together your business, and you have a website, and you have an email manager, or a CRM, and a, like another course platform, you know that like these little subscriptions, really start to add up. So, let's take a look at like some of the features that you would have in a course platform. Again, I am most familiar with Kajabi. So, I'm going to highlight what it can do. But if you're looking for an all-in-one platform, as a course creator, or an entrepreneur who has e-learning components to your business, you may consider releasing some of the platforms that you subscribe to, and looking for an all-in-one solution like Kajabi, to sort of streamline your business. Course creation, obviously. And this comes with the ability to automate announcements and emails, your community, your coaching platform, all of that you're like the communication to your clients. All of that can be automated within the course creation process, a website builder, email marketing, sales funnels, community analytics, there is a mobile app, let me come back to that. You can process your payments through Kajabi. And I say that because Kajabi has a sort of checkout feature. It does integrate with other payment platforms. So, you will be relying on an integration with Stripe, or PayPal, they are soon to be releasing Google Pay, Apple Pay, other things, I can't remember exactly what's included in that, and it is a little bit behind the times on that I will say but they're getting there. So yeah, like, if you're paying for all of these things separately, and you decide to bring it all under one roof, you probably will pay honestly less per month with the 150 or the 120.
Pualena 07:30
So anyway, I do sort of want to give a caveat as well. If course creation is on your list of things that you want to do. And you're thinking about signing up for a platform that you're going to have to pay for. Get as far as you can, with your course creation, before you sign up for the platform. One of my favorite things to do with our clients is to encourage them to create their entire course, or at least start creating their course, before we even sign up for Kajabi. So, what we do on our end is we will do wireframing and making sure that we have all of the automations, all of the emails drafted and get everything ready to plug and play the moment the client signs up for the platform. So, and this often doesn't work exactly as we think it will, which is good. Okay, so I have an affiliate link for Kajabi. My affiliate link offers a 30-day free trial where if you sign up on the website, you get a 14-day free trial. And so my game is can I get this client's entire ecosystem developed and built out in the platform within like one to two weeks, so that they have the ability in week two or week three of their trial to start selling their course. Ideally, you are never actually paying out of pocket for your subscription. You have those 30 days to actually it's not even in those 30 days, those 30 days are on us. It's before the 30-day free trial that you are creating all of your content. Now it's very easy to get stuck there, right? Because you're like, ah, there's no skin in the game. Like I'm not paying for anything yet other than Pua. And like, you know, I can take my time. So, there that's there's another like realm of motivation there. But if we can get everything ready, create your course, and then create a marketing and client acquisition strategy to begin to implement as soon as things are built that allows you to potentially recoup the cost of the platform and never have actually have to pay for it out of pocket. The caveat to that is you must have a list to sell to. A lot of people are like, Okay, well, I'll create my course, and I'll like, get my website together. And then I will just post it on Instagram, and I'll like, make a story about it, or I'll put it on my Facebook, or my TikTok and then like people will buy it, you know, like, you know, three of my friends will probably buy it. Here's kind of the mindset around that. Now, I will say I do not offer marketing, advertising, promotional services, ours are strictly in the like design and development phase. I wish I did. It just, it's not my realm of genius and I don't have the capacity to bring on a team to handle that yet. But if you don't have a list to sell to, if you don't have a strategy for promotion, this plan won't work. Plain and simple. You can post on Facebook till the cows come home, your friends will want to support you, maybe a couple of them will buy your product, if they're not your target audience. It's that's just just not gonna fly. So, it does sound great. And for some people, it's an awesome plan. Now, it's interesting, right? Because the people who that will work for, if they have a list, they're probably somewhat established. And so paying for the platform before they're making money on it, it is not as high up on their priorities, like, it's fine, I'll pay them 150 a month, like, let's just do it, right, let's just build it and take our time. So, I do want you to understand that those are sort of some of the details that come into play, when we're talking about this kind of timeline and strategy. Not so, on that note, right? You're like, Okay, fine. Well, I'm a new business. I'm not established, I don't have a list. So, what options do I have? This is why we really like to build an email opt-in sequence, like a, I had a colleague and a friend, Nick Trevelyan, phenomenal coach, he calls this The Three Step Hero Funnel. And it's basically just, I don't know, if you've heard of like the OVO offer value offer structure, where you offer something, right, you have like a landing page. Very simple. Hey, get my free PDF download. There's offer number one, deliver the value, right? Drop your name and email, or like, click here to get it. And then you click and there's like, there could be like a little pop-up or squeeze page, collect the information that you need from them, name and email, send them the download, and then give them another offer. Right? Give them more value. Hey, thanks so much for downloading this PDF. I hope you enjoy it. Please join my Facebook group. It's a community of people just like you who are doing X, Y, and Z in this industry. Right? There's another piece of value from that same sequence, we are then going to deploy a series of emails. The first email has the PDF. The second and it's you know, hey, welcome, thank you so much. Here's your PDF, here's what to expect. Here's how to use it. Maybe a quick link to the Facebook group one more time. Email number two, right? Hey, just checking in to see if you were using the thing I gave you. Here's some tips on how to use it well. Respond back, I read every email, right? That's a strategy. If you do, if you don't read every email, don't say it. Just be honest. Okay? And then email number three, more value, next steps, right? Here are all the ways that you can engage with our business. Some things are free, some things are for purchase, choose your own adventure. A very quick and dirty description of/or explanation of The Three Step Hero Funnel. But essentially, that's all you need. And so if that's the first thing that you create, that is what you're going to share on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and texting your friends. And it's in talking about it all the time. Because if you aren't willing to pay, which is fine, for your reach, then you must do it organically with the network that you have. And talking about it and posting about it and making sure that people are aware that that's what you do. And this is what you have to offer. And you will build a list of people that hopefully are within your target audience. So, that when you do launch your paid product, your course you have a list to sell to. So, that really should be your first step is getting that three-step hero funnel built and starting to share. So, for people who are not established business owners, who don't have a list, that's usually what I recommend, hey, let's get this three-step funnel all fleshed out. Get your download, ready to go. Email copy. What do we want to say on those pages? What do we want them to look like? What are those offers, and what is the value that we're providing? Get all of that ready to build, then you initiate your free trial, we build that, and you share it as we continue to build. So, for those people, ironically, unfortunately, you may be paying for your subscription out of pocket for a few months until you get your course content and your website content ready to go.
Pualena 15:29
Alright, I digress. Let's go back to platforms. So, here are a few things that we want to start looking at when we're making a decision on platforms. And I do want to sort of name a few of the other course platforms that are out there that I've had limited experience with. And they're great, there are dozens, THINKIFIC is one, and Teachable is another and Podia is another and I say all of these three, almost in like rapid fire, because they're very similar. And these are three probably of the most common platforms that are specifically for online courses that you own, right? There's platforms like Udemy and Skillshare. Those you can have your course uploaded to those platforms, and they take a percentage of your sales. These platforms you pay for, but you keep your sales minus credit card fees. And there are other platforms also, that offer course creation features, but they're not course creation-specific platforms. Things like ClickFunnels has a course area. It's alright. WordPress, you can have a, they're actually some pretty decent course plugins, LifterLMS is one that I would highly recommend. If you are on WordPress, and you want to do a course, there is a podcast episode with the LifterLMS founder. His name is Chris, something I'm really bad at remembering people's last names. Chris, please don't take offence to this if you hear this. And I will find this and drop it in the show notes. But I highly recommend checking that episode out if you're on WordPress, and you like WordPress and you want to stay on WordPress and you want to have a course. Anyway. So, like know that Kajabi is sort of my jam. But it is not the only option that you have. Okay, I really want to drive home that this is not like a Kajabi-sponsored episode. It's just what I'm most familiar with. So, let's talk about some, like features and benefits that you might want to be looking for in a course platform. Do you want an all-in-one solution? I think most people would say yes. Because it's kind of like a shiny object, right? Like, oh, that sounds great, then I don't have to log into all these different platforms. Yes. And if you have a setup that is set up well, and you were able to manage it. Perhaps you don't need an all-in-one. Like, don't fix something if it's not broken. But my question for you is, can your current setup scale? If you are the one who holds the passwords to all the things, and you've got like this Zapier thing that goes to like a type form thing, and your type form is on a certain subscription that only takes however many entries and you have to manage like are we getting close to the subscription limit and on this platform and that platform. And if I change platforms, we have to change my Zapier and blah, blah, blah it can get very complicated. So, if you have a simple setup that you or your team can effectively manage at scale, keep it I guess, if you want to. If what I just said resonates a little bit too deeply with you and you actually have a hard time managing all the platforms that you have and getting them to talk to each other. And you're doing more manual work than you need to. And you know that you don't have to do this much manual work but you are. Perhaps an all-in-one solution, or at least sort of streamlining and combining some of your options is something to consider. So just throwing that out there.
Pualena 19:30
User experience. This is a big one. And I want this to be true for you and your customers. And I enjoy Kajabi for that reason, because overall, it's pretty easy to use on both sides. Yes, there are things that people find and complain about and there's problems and like every platform will have problems. You can't make every human happy. But I think that if in general, you have a pretty simple system, which I like, keep it simple, even if you're a ginormous business, bringing in 10s of 1000s of dollars a month or a week or a day, you can still have a very simple setup. If you need complexity, if your business relies on, you know, segmentation and tracking of like very, very specific analytics, and actions, and triggers, and emails, and all of that, like maybe Kajabi is not for you. Kajabi is for entrepreneurs and small businesses. Okay, so remember that if you are a large corporation, or if you have scaled your small business to be something massive, Kajabi may not be enough for you. I know a lot of larger businesses or small businesses that bring in very, very high revenue, who use Kajabi in conjunction with a couple of other platforms that fill the gaps, and they're perfectly happy. So that is an option as well, like Kajabi may not be your all-in-one, or any whatever platform you choose, right? But scalability definitely is a big one. Marketing tools, what do you need for your business to succeed? What tools do you need? What analytics do you need, what functionalities do you need in order for all of your systems to talk to each other properly and your clients to feel served and seen and appreciated and like they aren't just another number in your business space. If you want people to have a phenomenal experience, from their very first exposure to you to their very last interaction, your marketing tools can make or break that. So, do you have an email manager that can help you automate some of your nurturing of your leads and your clients, instead of you having to do it on your own, but still allowing them to feel like they've been served. I'm not saying this to trick them, you can provide a fantastic service that is largely automated. Because you understand your target audience, you understand their pain points, you understand what they need in order to get the resources that they need to get results. And if you have that deep of an understanding, then you can create some automated sequences and resources and communication, to meet them where they're at, to understand what they need when they need it. And to help them make decisions on how to move forward through your ecosystem of digital products or physical products or services. Right? Tied into this is analytics. And I will say Kajabi has mid-range analytics, mid to low, it's just very simple, right? They're not, you can't drill down super deep into many of the analytics that other platforms pride themselves on. I won't get too deep into the weeds here. But a lot of people will integrate Kajabi or utilize other tools, Google Analytics. If you're sending emails, if you're looking at like page views for your pages, you'll use things like Hotjar or FullStory, just to give you like more depth and more insight into how your users are experiencing the spaces. So, something to consider. And again, whatever platform you land on, you may need to have one or two other platforms that help you and support you in achieving the goals of your business. But largely, if you are a small business and entrepreneur, you are focusing on serving your clients, and you don't want to focus on all of your tech and making sure that it's all working. So, an all-in-one platform can alleviate a lot of the time and energy that you spend making your platforms cooperate.
Pualena 23:58
Okay. I know that this was probably drinking out of a firehose, and you're like, maybe you don't feel like you know what platform like you’re less sure now than when the episode started. I talked a lot about Kajabi. I briefly mentioned some other platforms. I mentioned things that you want to consider when you're making a choice of a platform. And I want to leave you with this. If you're listening to this, it's probably because you have a course and you want to choose what platform to launch your course on. It is that simple. And I mentioned in the beginning, not to let your decision of a platform get in the way of you actually taking action and creating your content. I stand by that. Now I want to leave you with a quote, and a caveat, the quote is, “Content is king or queen.” Your content is what matters. So, if you have this thing inside you, and you're like, I want to have a course, because I can help people, by teaching them this or walking them through this or providing this guidance or coaching or experience. That is what matters most, find a way to get that content into a way that is digestible, and accessible to the people that need it most. Because until you do that people are out there suffering because you have not put your solutions into the world. Okay? Now, what matters almost as much is the ability to successfully deliver a transformation. There is responsibility on the client, I will not deny that. If you have the best course in the world, and the client doesn't have the right motivation or accountability or just inner drive to take that content, consume it, and then take action on it, so they get the result. That's on them. But we can make that easier. And that's what platforms do. Platforms allow you to provide a user experience that removes hurdles, it allows clients to like, log in easily and access their content easily. And like, I'm sure many platforms have this feature, where if I log into my course, and I click this button, resume, it takes me back to instantly where I was before, like Netflix, right? Instead of having to go back from the beginning, where was I only like a bookmark, right? So, think about your user experience. Think about any roadblocks that might come up that keep your clients from getting to that transformation and depending on the industry, and then the service that you provide, maybe the smallest hindrance can make or break their experience and their ability to get that transformation that they desire and to achieve the results that they want. Really, really think about that and consider it when you're making these decisions. Because investing in a platform could allow you to grow and scale because that user experience is so good. On the other side of that, you can test before you buy. Test your content, give people a live four-week session of what your course is going to be. Deliver in a Facebook group, those are free, deliver it in a Google Drive, you know, like, there are ways to test this for free. So, don't let the platform thing again, oh, I can't test it until I've chosen my platform. Not true. Definitely test it before you choose your platform. I strongly recommend that.
Pualena 28:06
Okay. This was a lot. I hope it was helpful. I look forward to chatting with you again. I'm considering changing the name of this podcast. And I would love your feedback. So, right now, my business is Rebel Media. RBLmedia.co is my website. RBL.media is my Instagram. And yet I have this Course Creators Academy podcast. And so I, and I have a Course Creators Academy Instagram account that I'm sure people find. And then they're like, why is this not current? And I should probably delete that. Or, like, hide it? I just looked at it on my phone. I'm going to stop. So anyway, I like the Course Creators Academy podcast as a title because it just tells you exactly what it is. And it identifies my target audience. However, I love my brand. And I'm curious to my listeners, there might be like two of you. Or there might be 200 or 2000. I actually have no idea. But what do you think about like, the Rebel Media podcast, or Rebel and Business podcasts? I don't know. I've been like really thinking about this. So, I would love to have you participate in what this podcast becomes. I think, you know, part of what makes me really excited about this podcast is bringing guests in that are experienced in all different types of businesses, and they're at different stages in their business journey. And so having something that's more targeted to the general small business owner, or the aspiring business owner or the entrepreneur, yeah, I just think that there is a shift about to happen and I love your thoughts and your feedback because you are why I do this podcast. So, feel free to reach out to me. Instagram is probably the best place for that @RBL.media or you could reach out to my email [email protected] R-B-L-media.co Or just like a contact form on the website. I really need to just streamline, do you agree? Yeah. So, I'd love your thoughts. So after listening to this, if you think that you are ready to pull the trigger on a course platform, and you are sold on Kajabi, then yay, I have something really special for you. Again, I don't want to make this feel like I'm pressuring my listeners into the Kajabi platform. It's just, it is a platform that I use. And so, I there's benefit if you decide to move forward in that direction. I super would love and appreciate any questions that you have about that. Please feel free to reach out and yeah, enjoy. Definitely sign up for the trial anyway, even if you, you know aren't sure or decide not to move forward. Just you can play with the platform, see if it'll work for what you need. And again, if you have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to reach out and I will wrap this up. Thank you so much for listening, and I look forward to seeing you in a couple weeks.
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In this episode, Pua delves into the world of coaching, exploring the nuances of coaching, differentiating it from therapy, and discussing the challenges and stigmas associated with the coaching industry. Pua emphasizes the importance of highlighting transformations over features and benefits when marketing coaching services. She also offers valuable insights for both coaches and consumers, encouraging due diligence and transparency in the industry. Pua touches on the potential integration of online courses for coaches to scale their impact while maintaining the essence of transformation-focused coaching.
Pua emphasizes the importance of coaching by discussing the challenges and stigmas associated with the industry. She shares several red flags to watch out for in language used by coaches and how to recognize credible coaching programs. Pua also encourages coaches to focus on showcasing transformations and highlights the need for due diligence when seeking coaching services.
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Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.Media--
Transcript
Pualena 0:00
If I'm a coach, and I know, I am aware, either because I listened to this episode, or because I have talked to other humans in the digital business space, I know that there is a little bit of a stigma around coaching. I feel compelled to be a coach. It's my calling. I've, you know, provided great transformation for people. Maybe I have some certifications. It's something that I know that I'm passionate about. And I would like to pursue. Please pursue it. We need coaches, coaches change lives.
Pualena 0:39
Hello, and welcome back to the Course Creators Academy podcast. I'm your host, Pua. I am the owner of RBL Media, Rebel Media. It's interesting because I started this company wanting to call it Rebel Media. And the way that the name of the company turned out was RBL. And everybody asks me, What does RBL stand for?" And I always say, it's Rebel without the “e’s”. Because, you know, rebels don't need vowels. And it's such a weird response, that sort of, it came to me spontaneously one day, and I've always thought I should figure out something for this acronym, RBL. It could be something really cool. I just, you know, rebels in business and in life. Somebody, please give me something better than that. But I digress. Today, I am very excited, as usual, to continue a conversation. I mean, it'll be a monologue, because I'm here in a solo episode. But it's a conversation that has been ongoing. For me and many spaces for, I don't know, 10 years now. It's been a very personal conversation at one point in my entrepreneurial journey. It's been a conversation with my clients, with other entrepreneurs and people in this space, conversation with people who are not entrepreneurs, who don't necessarily engage with or in, or practice any sort of coaching. So I didn't even introduce the topic yet. But here we are, we are talking about coaching today. And I'm coming to this space, from more of a theoretical standpoint, today, it's not necessarily going to give you a ton of actionable steps to take action on if you are a coach. Actually, that’s not true, I think it will. But more just having a, sharing thoughts and experiences, both building websites and courses in digital spaces for coaches and also having briefly participated as a coach in this space. And I think coaching in and of itself is sort of a buzzword, it's a little bit depending on who you talk to. It's either a buzzword or a bad word, to be honest. It's either, you know, oh, I know, I need a coach, or do you have a business coach? Do you have a life coach? Do you know a business coach? Do you have a fitness coach and coaching has become this thing that is sought after, both from the client's perspective of, Oh, I heard I'm supposed to have a business coach if I have a business. I, you know, fitness coaching has been around for a long time. And I think that space is very cut and dry. And again, I will use that as for many examples today, because it's an industry that I both used to work in and also seems fairly relatable, especially for the coaching conversation. I think it's a good comparison because there are many parallels. And you know, I think it's a conversation worth having because of all the reasons why coaching is a bad word. Right? Let's talk about that. Let's like, it's sort of the elephant in the room when people are like, introducing themselves. Oh, what do you do? I'm a life coach. Okay. Right? It's, and we don't want people to have that reaction. We also don't want people who are fantastic life coaches to say, to feel ashamed to tell people, I'm a life coach. And it's very interesting. So, I used to have a business that I co-founded with a friend of mine, and this business had many iterations, it went through many different names. And one of the names that we came up with was best life ever. And we were business coaches. We were, you know, time and energy and productivity coaches, and we did corporate consulting and workshops and so we were not life coaches, but because our business was called best life ever. And you know, we named it this because work-life balance is not a thing like you must integrate it all. And if you have a wonderful work life, you have your best life, right? It's part of your best life. And so that was sort of the idea behind the name. But everybody on the planet thought we were life coaches, and I remember just like cringing, when people would come up to me, and they'd say, like, Oh, are you still life coaching, and I'm like, I never did that. And I would get so defensive. Even still, to this day, people will say, like, Oh, we're sorry, were you still doing that life coaching thing and like, ugh. But I want to talk about that visceral reaction, because there are phenomenal life coaches out there, there are people who are literally changing lives every second of every day, through the act of life coaching, and business coaching, and all the other kinds of coaching. And I want to talk about why we have this reaction and how we can shift, especially if you are a business coach listening to this. I hope that you're listening to this. I hope that you can get something out of this, to be able to talk about your business with pride and to know that the transformation that you provide is worthwhile and that your services are worth investing in. That's my hope and my vision for the future of this industry. But in order to get there, we need to talk about the reasons why people have these reactions to life coaching and business coaching and coaching in general.
Pualena 06:49
Why do you think that the reputation of the coaching industry has become so negative? Is that justified? Is it possible for this industry to reverse itself? And when I asked people about this, many times, the first or, you know, one of the first answers that comes to the table is well, you know, I'm not opposed to the idea of having a life coach or being a life coach, or knowing somebody who's a life coach. But, you know, what's the difference between that and therapy? And how do I know like, What are the qualifications that somebody needs to become a life coach, because at least a therapist has to go through med school and get you know, they're qualified, they have to have their degrees and certifications. And it's sort of a, like, it's a medical field. Coaching, if you want to be a coach, you put up a website, and then you start telling people, you're a coach, and you're a coach. So, I think that's a big part of why, you know, it's the wild, wild west, like there's no real bar for becoming a coach. Yes, there are certifications, yes, there are programs and, you know, qualifications that you can get, it's optional. Some consumer, some clients will look for this, but not all. And here's the thing is, over the years, as social media has taken over things, like you know, print mailers, and ads in the paper, we have been granted the opportunity to be and do anything we want and market ourselves for very, very little cost or for free. I can decide I'm a business coach, I can open a brand new Instagram account, I can put my new website up there and open a scheduling platform Calendly, whatever, and say, Hey, guys, I'm a coach now. Go ahead and sign up, $100 an hour, right? Like anybody can do that. And so there is a huge gap for how we do our due diligence and figure out if somebody is qualified and legitimate. I think that is one of the biggest reasons why this industry has the reputation that it does.
Pualena 09:27
So, the other thing is, like, what is a coach, actually? This is a very ambiguous term. And I think that's also part of why people don't get it. What's the difference between a coach and a therapist? I had somebody explain it to me as a therapist is there to, let's google it, shall we? What is the difference between coaching and therapy? Should I say life coaching? Therapy focuses on mental health, life coaching focuses on goals. The major difference between therapy and life coaching is the focus of the work. Therapy focuses on mental health and emotional healing. While Life Coaching focuses on setting and achieving goals. Interesting. I'm curious, if you're listening, if you agree with that. I can sort of see where they're coming from with this. This is just the very first thing that popped up on Google, it's probably sponsored. The source is zencare.co. I mean, it does kind of makes sense. So let's think about it. Like, is there are therapists trained in mental health and emotional healing? What kind of training do life coaches have around setting and achieving goals? I think life coaches also touch on mental health, emotional health, you know, anyway, it's a big conversation, right? And I think, you know, a big part of that also is identifying and defining what coaching is, and what kind, and we're gonna focus more on life coaching today. But, you know, business coaching, fitness coaching, so let's look at fitness coaching, from this definition of, you know, if I have a goal, am I seeking out a coach in order to help me achieve that goal? I think that makes sense. If I want to compete in a jujitsu tournament, next summer, I will want to have a coach who I can tell this goal to and they can give me a prescribed formula or, you know, training plan in order to get me to this tournament next year. That sounds pretty legitimate. Will a therapist, let's see if I tell a therapist. Yeah, I see. Yeah, I think this definition makes sense to me in this moment. So anyway, when we think about coaching, what I would love to encourage you to do, is think about coaching from a transformation perspective. So, I see this all the time on Instagram, or social media in general, I'm sure it's on, I don't have TikTok, but I'm sure it's on TikTok, people who decide, okay, I'm gonna go into the coaching industry, regardless of if they have certifications, training programs, if they have a coach of their own. I see this so much where people are like, yeah, so I'm a life coach now. And I do coaching and I think coaching is something that everybody needs. And so if you're interested in coaching, I can tell you what coaching is, and how coaching, you know, was beneficial for me and why I think coaching is beneficial for you. Tell me, if you think that that is at all effective for attracting an ideal target audience for piquing somebody's interest? Like I say, No, it is not. You know why? Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna go invest in coaching today. Although they might, but I don't think they do. Most people say, I want to do this, I want to get better at that. I want my life to be better. And so in order to get there, I want to do this. These are results. These are transformations. These are goals that people are looking for. So, if you're a life coach, and you have a niche to help people get through, you see, here's the other thing, right? Like, I'm thinking, as a life coach, there are realms of life, right? Business Coaching, divorce coaching, marriage coaching, what's the difference between marriage coaching and marriage counselling, and couples therapy? Right? There's like, all these realms of life that people may invest in, in coaching and I have so somebody on my team said, you know, do you know of a good business coach, and I am sitting there and I'm, I know of business coaches, but I want to know what her specific goals are, because then I can actually connect her with the person who is works in that realm. So think business life, even fitness coaching, what kind of fitness coaching do you want? Do you want to lose weight? Do you want to be healthy? Do you want to maintain whatever fitness you have now? Do you want to participate in a specific sport or a specific activity or event? Do you want to run a marathon? Do you want to, you know, paddle canoe race even like it's there's like so many niches and nuances to this space? So, being very specific about as a coach, you know, what? What is your transformation? What is your niche? I am a life coach who specifically supports new moms. Perfect. You don't have to say I'm a new mom coach. But you do have to identify your specific realm of expertise. On the consumer side, you do also have to specify your goals right? And we can think about people who are just really struggling. And they're like, I don't know what my goals are, I don't know what I need. I just know that I'm unhappy, I'm depressed, I'm feeling terrible. And I heard from somebody that I should look into getting a life coach. If that's your story, think about the kind of coach that you would resonate with. Possibly, you know, what their story is, what their specialty is, what their expertise is, because everyone's going to have an expertise. Or, and if they don't, I caution you not to work with them. If they're like, no matter what your problem is, I can help you. Red flag fully.
Pualena 15:51
So, on that note, let's talk about your expertise, your niche. How do you know what that is? Some people know some people are like, this is something that I've experienced, or this is training that I have invested in that I've received. And so this is the niche or the arena that I want to serve in. Great. Now, this is a this is another, not an industry red flag, but something to consider. Let's say I am an interior design coach. I don't know how that's different from an interior designer, but whatever. So, I decide that I want to be an interior design coach because I bought a house and I designed it. I designed the inside and I thought it was so cool and beautiful. And I had a couple of friends come over and they also told me that I did a great job. And so I'm like, You know what, I'm so good at this, I'm going to now be an interior design coach. That's my story. That's my qualification. It is very important. Like, if that's cool with you, as a consumer, to invest money into somebody who has done that for themselves. Good on you, go for it. Maybe ask for pictures of their home just so you can make sure that their design style resonates with you. But you know, make your own decisions. For me. That's not enough. I don't just want somebody who has been through the problem and come out the other side. I also want someone who has helped others through and can deliver proof of their results. At this point. I don't necessarily want to invest in somebody that's new to the game. I know that's unfair. Well, is it? I know it's difficult to become, to be a new service provider in any realm. And put yourself out there without the experience or the track record. But there are ways to do that, right? I'm not interested in being somebody's beta tester. But many people are. If you're new to the space, do a presale, do a beta launch, give it away at a significantly discounted price. And get people those awesome results. Get testimonials, get case studies, get qualitative results that prove ROI. And then go out there and serve. Right? I would say, you know if you are serious about your goals, if you are ready to invest in your own transformation, potentially you want to find somebody that's established and that's okay.
Pualena 18:37
Okay. So in this wild, wild west, it is up to the consumer to do their due diligence. How do you do this? Well, for one, reach out, get on discovery calls or breakthrough calls or free consultations, or whatever they call it, and have a good list of questions to ask, you know, what, how did you get into this space? How long have you been doing this? Who's your favourite client? What client did you have that you did not like? Have you ever had to fire a client? Like, ask? And why? Right? Ask these good, deep questions that allow you to understand who this person is. What makes them qualified to deliver this type of coaching? And do you like them? Do you resonate with them? Can you listen to the sound of their voice for an hour? That's important, right? Does their guidance feel like it's in alignment with your goals and the way that you want to move forward? Does their style of feedback feel good to you? Right? Some people need tough love. They need to be told, you know, do this or this is your consequence. Other people thrive on positive reinforcement, right? So, do your due diligence. The other thing that I strongly encourage you to do is to reach out and if you do your initial call, you're like I think I kind of liked this person. Before you say yes. And this is going to be tough, because some coaches are going to offer you know Oh, if you say yes and sign up within 24 hours, I'm going to give you this price. And after 24 or 48 hours, you know, it's going to go up. And, you know, it's an urgency, I would say, negotiate with them, if you can, you know, can we extend this because I would like to reach out to some of your current or past clients to get their feedback and just make sure that you'd be a good fit. There will be people who will say, you know, my client list is completely confidential, I'm not able to give you that information. And I would push back a little bit and say, you know, I don't mind waiting a few days, if you're able to reach out to some of your clients and ask them if it's okay, to share their information, I just like to talk to them. It can be a very quick email, Hey, I just did a call with so and so I'm thinking of working with them, I'd like to hear your honest feedback of what it was like to work with them. I've had, I have clients do this for me, and I tell them to do it, I say, you know, here's a list of my some of my recent clients, feel free to reach out to them to ask what their experience was like, you can curate that list, right? I have worked with clients, and we were not good fits for each other. And, you know, I've had to let them go, they have let me go. And I wouldn't give people those names, right? But I've had far more very, very happy clients who have gone off to be really successful. And those are the clients that I would definitely connect them with. I also have a portfolio on my website, and it doesn't bother me, if somebody who might want to work with me reaches out to all of those people to ask what their experience was, like. If I am confident in my service, that should not be an issue. I understand if there's confidentiality, but as a service provider, I would have a list of clients that you can sort of ask that of, most people won't mind. You know, I think it's a great call. I've been burned by a coach, spent 1000s on this coach, and was not able to get a refund, we weren't a good fit. They, you know, to me, it felt like a scam. And I actually think that they were, they're a good person, they were doing their best, but it was not a good fit. Their coaching style did not feel in alignment with my goals. And that can be enough to make something feel scammy. Would I recommend this coaches anybody else, I wouldn't necessarily, but not to say that they don't have their own target audience that they can successfully coach. So, just something to think about.
Pualena 22:43
Okay, let's wrap this up, by sort of drilling down into the space that we are in now with buyer psychology, paid advertising, all of the noise that we are battling against, both as a consumer and as a service provider. If I'm a coach, and I know, I am aware, either because I listen to this episode, or because I have talked to other humans in the digital business space. I know that there is a little bit of a stigma around coaching, I feel compelled to be a coach, it's my calling. I've, you know, provided great transformation for people. Maybe I have some certifications. It's something that I know that I'm passionate about. And I would like to pursue. Please pursue it. We need coaches, coaches change lives. So, I do want to encourage you to follow your dreams here. This is not supposed to be a discouraging episode. I just want to make sure that you are armed with all of the information that you need in order to go out there and be successful. So, when we're talking about our coaching services and our business, I encourage you to again, focus on the transformation and find ways to highlight transformations that you've provided for other people, maybe you have a podcast and you interview your clients, maybe you have you know social media features client features, quick little, you know, people will go live on Instagram, let's say with, and interview their clients, maybe you have a blog, or you write articles. So, it's something to be aware of in terms of anything that you sell. You want to share the transformation as often as possible, as opposed to sharing benefits and features of your program that has a time and a place and you can always do that. But I would do that probably like 15% of the time. And it's really important to create a trusted space that provides value. So, if I am following you in on on Instagram, and you always share your Motivational Monday tips just really resonate with me. Keep doing it, do it every Monday, because I'm going to come there, and I'm going to check. And I'm going to look forward to your Motivational Monday posts. And I'm going to look forward to your shareable Tuesday tweetable as or, you know, whatever, but continue to provide value, and showcase your expertise in that way. Rather than it people can feel when you're essentially begging them to sign up, oh, you know, I have this, here's the link in my bio, we can do coaching, you know, anytime that you want. I can even do like a free session for you. And, you know, if it feels like you're begging, people will not, that doesn't sell, you know, buyer psychology does not respond well to begging. And if it is transformation-focused, people will be able to see right away, like, do I relate with the story, do I resonate with the story and this guidance and how they got to this transformation? That's what sells. So, I highly encourage you to talk about that, even if you're selling a product.
Pualena 26:18
So, let's talk about multilevel marketing for a second, another bad word that's potentially, you know, a potentially bad word. Many people do it, many people are really successful with it. Many people are really turned off by it. Those who I see are successful in the multilevel marketing space, are showcasing people using their products, and that those transformations. They're not talking about sign up under me and you can get $100 this month, and there's a special promotion and blah, blah, blah. No we want people to relate with the actual transformation. They don't need the logistics of what it means to sign up under you and what they get, as a person who sells that stuff that actually scares people. People want to know that this product is so good, that it works so well, then, of course, they're going to sign up under you because it's so easy to help other people achieve this transformation through their own channels. Right? So, showcase yourself using it showcase other people using it, talk to other people about it. Again, testimonials, interviews, blog posts, all of those things. And then as the consumer, if you are looking for coaching, fitness coaching, business coaching, life coaching, whatever, know that you can be tricked. Okay? And as a service provider, know that people are out there tricking other people, and it's going to make your job harder. But it just means that you need to be stand firm and the transformation that you provide, and continue to highlight that authentically and vulnerably. Because people will see through the BS eventually, as a consumer know that people throw 1000s of dollars at advertising in order to get their ads in front of your face. So, if you're seeing repeated messaging over and over and over, and it's starting to look appealing to you, do your due diligence, right, don't just buy spontaneously, unfortunately, in this space, that's just not something that we can do anymore. And if you're a coach, and you're offering those fast action discounts of you know, give them 24 hours, or else the price doubles, I'd really like to encourage you to rethink that. Maybe you can extend the time, right? Maybe, you know, let me know, within seven days, and give them the time to do their due diligence, encourage them to do it. You want to be so confident in your service, that if people are out there asking questions, and Googling your name, and scam, that nothing will come up because you are acting in Integrity with your business, your services and what you say you'll do. All right. So, how does this loop back to Course Creators? Well, many coaches become course creators. Why? Because we start coaching because we are good at something or we're good at providing this transformation for people and many coaches start with this sort of one-on-one experience, or maybe they start with group coaching. Think about it as in fitness, right? You can have a personal trainer, there's, you know, a group fitness class, right? And there are, you know, levels and tiers and subscriptions and pricing and offerings, all of these things. And eventually, we cannot scale our own time and energy anymore. Which is a lot of times the reason why people create courses. Now courses for coaches tend to be a little bit of a different animal. Coaching is effective, because it's the prescription or the formula that you're providing, right, based on your experience, based on your training, and you can customize that to your clients if you need to or want to. But you are there as the coach as the person to hold them accountable to give them the guidance, to carry them from start to finish. And beyond. Courses that are asynchronous, puts that responsibility back on the client. So, they either need to be self-motivated, or you can provide them with the tools to motivate themselves and to stay accountable. Or they won't do it. Right? So that's why a lot of coaches have online courses, in conjunction with communities or group calls to weave in a little bit of that personalized experience a little bit of accountability, a little bit of community. And that is something that is worth considering, you know, people do courses because they're like, Okay, I can't take on any more. So I'm just going to do this course and sell it, people will get the transformation on their own. It's just out there, I don't need to do anything. Remember, though, that if your service is transformation-oriented, selling an asynchronous course, without any accountability, without any way for them to get the results that they desire, may potentially end up with them being very dissatisfied with your course. So. we can talk about this in length in a future episode, but it is definitely something to consider. Now. If we want to put the onus on the client, we absolutely can we just need to be very transparent about that. Right? Hey, this is an asynchronous course, you get to go through this as quickly or as slowly as you'd like. This is the prescription that I suggest, right? Do a module every week, do a lesson every day. Here are some worksheets. Here are some feedback channels potentially, right? You can ask questions here. Here's a community of people that can lift you up, ask questions there, how are you going to manage your community? How are you going to respond to questions and feedback? So, there's a lot to consider as a coach in the online course space. But I do think that it can greatly enhance your service. And take a little bit of the time and energetic pressure off of you to be there, delivering every step of the way. If you do think that, you know, one-on-one, coaching is really the way to go for you. And really the best way for your clients to get results, perhaps providing a course that has supplemental content that can help you know, if you spend the first two sessions, teaching the same thing every single time. Maybe you can provide a course and say, you know, here's the introduction modules, go through these, listen to them, watch them, do the worksheets, so that your coaching clients can show up prepared so that they can show up understanding those foundational concepts or tools or whatever it is that you teach so that you can dive in at a deeper level from the start. So, anyway, just a few thoughts on how you can utilize online courses as a phenomenal coach in this industry, in this space. And I hope that this sparked some ideas for you and was a meaningful conversation slash monologue. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. Reach out on Instagram RBL.media. You can shoot a message to support at RBLmedia.co. Visit our website, my website RBLmedia.co. And I look forward to chatting with you again soon. All right, take it easy.
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Host Pua invites Joel Cochran, co-host of the "Proclivity Podcast," to share his transformative journey from a speech communications graduate to a wellness advocate. He discusses recognizing the critical link between mindset and self-identity. Joel founded Proclivity to liberate individuals from negative self-perceptions. His conversation with Pualena ventures into the significance of vulnerability in leadership, the need for clear communication, and the power of setting expectations and seeking help in business teams.
The episode also delves into effective feedback strategies and the importance of creating shared understanding. Joel offers valuable advice on project naming, emphasizing curiosity and openness. He introduces the "50-10 rule" for time management, using Siri as a productivity tool to optimize focus and enhance overall efficiency. In sum, the episode delivers practical insights on leadership, communication, and personal growth through Joel's own experiences and actionable tips.
About Joel Cochran
Joel Cochran is a professional with a background in speech communications and a deep passion for helping people overcome negative self-identities. He is the co-host of the "Proclivity Podcast," where he explores the intersection of mindset, wellness, and personal growth. Joel's journey has led him to establish Proclivity, where he focuses on helping individuals break free from limiting beliefs and achieve personal transformation.
Resources discussed in this episode:
The Proclivity Podcast--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Joel Cochran | Proclivity:
Website: proclivity.coInstagram: proclivity.coEmail: [email protected]: [email protected]--
TRANSCRIPT:
Joel 00:00
Cool, I went from I need help, to I got you, to we got this. I recognize I need help. I tell you that I'm right there with you. And then we end with, we got this. So now we've solidified with, we're a team. And then if I come as the leader, as the CEO, and I say to somebody, I need your help, regardless who it is, the smallest to the highest, and say, I need help, instead of “Hey, will you do this?” That's a big difference. Because I'm saying to you, no matter how high up I am, how low you may be in the totem pole, I'm asking for help. And when we do that we normalize receiving it.
Pualena 00:43
So here we are. We're on the Course Creators Academy podcast. I have Joel Cochran here, who does a million things. No, you do a few things really, really well.
Joel 00:57
I like that, that resonates with me a lot more.
Pualena 01:00
Yeah, it's and it's true. We've been friends for a few minutes if you total everything up, but lifetimes it feels like and we’ve really
Joel 01:10
It is.
Pualena 01:11
I just appreciate what you do in the world in the many spheres that you are in. And I definitely binge-listened to your podcast.
Joel 01:23
Yes, good old Proclivity podcast.
Pualena 01:26
It’s fabulous. Could you tell us what your podcast is?
Joel 01:29
Yeah. My podcast is with my business partner, Emily Rodela. And it's the Proclivity podcast. If you haven't given it a listen, give it a shot, we talk two parts, both psychologically and physiologically when it comes to health and wellness. So, you might have nutrition coaches that may talk about some lifestyle and some of the psychological mindset to food. And then you might have some life coaches who may talk a little bit about nutrition and the importance of food. Well, we just separated and said, Hey, Emily, you're the greatest at this in terms of the nutrition and the physiological side. And I'm the best at the mindset side. So, instead of me spending time on trying to figure out nutrition or the physiological side, I just pass it on to her, or, you know, clients on to her, and vice versa. And that one-two combo really allows us to help people get unstuck from the identities that they have surrounding food, fitness, themselves, relationships, being parents, so on and so forth. Because in the end, what we find is that, most of the time when people are coming to us, it's just what's boiling at the top. And we're trying to turn off the burner. Because if we turn off the burner, then there is no more. Well, I just don't have time, or I'm super busy, or, you know, this doesn't work or that doesn't work. No, it's just we have the we have a poor identity of ours.
Pualena 03:01
Absolutely. It's such a brilliant combination because I think a lot of people. I mean, if I'm thinking about times where I would want to reach out for support, it's generally not when you're feeling super awesome. It's usually when you're feeling like garbage. And we assume that there's this issue that's making us feel bad, or we don't know what the issue is, but we're calling on help to like, dig into our trauma when maybe there is that, but there's also like, I'm not sleeping well, my nutrition is making my body feel terrible, which is adding to these challenges. And as I listen to the way that you guide people, both it's like, it's very holistic. And when I say that, I feel like that word sort of triggers this kind of, I don't even like the word woo-woo because I love it all. But you know, there's that like very intangible space that people relate within a holistic sense. For you guys, I feel like you just have this entire human experience that you address. It's so good.
Joel 04:13
Aw man, I can't wait to tell Emily. How much compliments we just got. I received all of those compliments 100% Pua, thank you.
Pualena 04:22
Oh, my gosh, you're both awesome. Definitely. Everybody. Go check out the Proclivity podcast. Is it the Proclivity podcast?
Joel 04:30
Yup, nailed it.
Pualena 04:33
Excellent.
Joel 04:34
That's a great question. So I graduated from the University of Nevada. I live in Reno, Nevada, and I graduated in 2009 with a speech communications degree and a minor in community health science. At the time, I was like, What am I going to do with that? And now here I am, you know, however many years later, like oh, that's exactly what I'm doing. Communications and yeah, health.
Pualena 04:58
Right? I was going to say you are communicating and helping us be healthy.
Joel 05:04
Yeah, funnily, nailed it 2009 Joel, well done. And so at right around that time, too, I got into CrossFit. And really, at a pivotal time in my life where I was gonna, like graduated college, what am I going to do here? It allowed me an outlet. It's something to focus on. Because I was really in like, a dark space at that time, I was in a relationship that really wasn't working. And I graduated, didn't really know what I wanted to do. And so it gave me a direction. And I fell in love with CrossFit and became a trainer and a coach and then started a business a Vence company called Human Performance Project. And we put on CrossFit competitions we bought, at the time $35,000 worth of mobile rogue equipment. So, we had an entire rig that we could set up in a parking lot. And we had all the barbells and all the weights and all the rings and all the things pull-up bars that you needed. And we would run competitions, and we ended up running one of the largest CrossFit competitions here in Reno, Nevada in terms of payout at $32,000. At that time, it was one of the largest payouts. And with integrating myself into that space, I ended up rubbing elbows with two brothers who are looking to open up a really large CrossFit affiliate here in Reno and they wanted me to come on as their general manager. And I came out in as their general manager, and we grew the first location, and then they want to open a second location. So then, went and grew that, and did that from basically 2014 to 2020 was really ingrained in nutrition, and that health and fitness. Yet, there was something that was still missing. Because I would see so many people, I mean, 1000s and 1000s of people, I think by the time I left, I had done over 4001 on-one introductions. So like, I'm meeting up with you, and we're talking about your health and that duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. So, all those reps really got me the ability to know people and know their problems and their pain points. And I realized, like, it's not nutrition, it's not fitness, it's not even lifestyle, is that these people have such poor, like, identities with themselves. Like they don't see themselves as the hero, they don't even see themselves as a good person. And so, they were using fitness as a way to try to work through that identity. But then when they didn't show up to a class because he had to miss class or whatever the case is, they fell back to the same identity. And then they felt terrible about themselves. And so, it was then when the pandemic came, that I went, you know, it's time for me to separate here and I'm gonna go start my own business. And that's when I broke off and started my own business, focusing on lifestyle and mindset. And I started working with different coaches and invested, you know, somewhere around the range of north of $40,000, and business coaches and lifestyle coaches. That's what brought me to where I'm at now, which is running Proclivity and helping people to identify poor identities, poor behaviors, and tell them to break free from their past when it comes to the stories that they have.
Pualena 08:44
That is beautiful. I feel like there's so much to unpack here in terms of, you know, like, just, we're such complex beings. And there are so many parts of us that we can support and sort of create optimal health around. And we're not going to find that all in one place. And that's what I think people are looking for. In, you know, this fitness class that I'm trying out or joining a CrossFit affiliate, and we feel there's that like adrenaline rush of like, I finally found my people, this is gonna fix me, and then you miss a class. And then you miss two classes, and then you miss two weeks. Right?
Joel 09:27
Yeah, well, and you know, what we say is that the imposter starts coming in. And so the imposter, some people might call it your shadow. And the reason they call it your shadow is because you're always going to have a shadow. And some people try to run away from their shadow. And so they're just constantly moving. But that's shadow is always going to be with you. So, when we actually started recognizing like, oh, wait a second, I can accept my shadow or I can accept this imposter. I don't have to listen to it. Yet, I can recognize that it's here. And the problem is that we tend not to accept all parts of who we are. We tend to want to, if you put a line in the middle, we tend to want to only accept all the parts on the right side. And that's, I started the business and I lost all the weight. And, you know, I'm a great mom and I got a second degree, third degree or whatever, look at all the things I do. But on the left side, are all those times that we stumbled, the times that we didn't get to the finish line, the times that we did gain weight, the times that we said that really bad thing, the time that we really felt poor about that decision. And if we try to run away from those, and we don't actually accept those pieces and parts of us, then we can't fully accept ourselves, we're only accepting this part. So, then we continue to chase the carrot. I need to keep stacking because if I stop, I'm gonna look back and see this part of me that I don't like. So, I have to keep stacking the odds, in favour of me doing great. And this is why so many people topple over when the business project doesn't work, when they don't get the promotion, when the investment doesn't come through. Because now they put all their chips in being able to stack on this right side. And it just ended up stacking more on the left. And that they don't accept that side. And they don't know how to accept that side. This becomes a big turmoil in their life. And this is where we'll see physical manifestations of inflammation, you know, heart disease, indigestion, all these things that might pop up, and people were like, but I'm eating healthy, and I'm doing these things. But you're in full turmoil with yourself. So, quite interesting.
Pualena 12:04
Very. And I think it's so, it's probably magnified with social media and all of the comparisons that we're seeing. Really interesting, though, I had a conversation the other day about vulnerability for leaders, and how if you are in a position where you know that people are looking up to you, whether you're a business coach, or a thought leader, or a content creator even, and people are mimicking what you're doing or following your guidance, when you share that, you know, I didn't start out this way, I released 450 videos before one went viral, or I even would appreciate if someone said, you know, I grew up in a very wealthy family, and my father invested in my business. And so I got a leg up. And I know that that's not the case for most people, you know, if those kinds of stories if we normalize that, I'm wondering if this misalignment or this imbalance that we feel inside could start to shift and we realize that okay, people do struggle and struggles okay, and I can relate and identify with that as much as I can identify with my successes.
Joel 13:23
So true. Yet, we'd have to be vulnerable.
Pualena 13:27
But who asked you?
Joel 13:29
Of all, you know, yeah,
Pualena 13:32
It's hard, it really is.
Joel 13:33
Vulnerability is one of the most powerful emotions that we have, it's the most most connective emotion, if you've ever been vulnerable with somebody, and it was fully received, how safe and how incredible does that feel? It's like one of those like, whoa, like, I'm totally connected with you now. Ya know it's that late night for, you know, guys and girls to, you know, half a bottle down a wine or whiskey, and you're going like, Man, I'm gonna be vulnerable, I'm gonna open up because all the walls are broken down. And then we say the thing, you know, that we're struggling with, but we need a half a bottle of wine or whiskey to be able to get to the point of being able to open up. Being able to do that in the workspace, in your relationship, to be able to show and I don't necessarily agree with when people say weakness, because when we classify something as weak, saying, I have too much on my plate. And I'm not being able to be as mobile, as I know I can be that and I was calling that weakness, right? I'm just feeling weak. Whoa, no, you just aren't as mobile because there's so much on your plate. And so why don't we call it what it is? Hey, I have so much on my plate. I'm not being able to be mobile. And so, therefore, I'm feeling stuck. And so what I'm asking is I need help to be able to remove some of this from my plate, so I can be more mobile so that I actually can get more things done, that need to be accomplished. Yet, we first have to come and say, I need help. And help is the most courageous word that we have, and can use. And when we start classifying help as courageous, instead of weak, things can start changing.
Pualena 15:24
Beautiful. Is that a space that you intentionally curate, for your team to, you know, come to you and say, I didn't do this thing? I'm feeling stuck, you know? And is there? What guidance do you have for people who may be in leadership positions or just like stepping into? There are a lot of solo entrepreneurs who are on the cusp of bringing on a team who may never have led people before, and they're just looking for ways to do it right? Or ways to sort of course correct.
Joel 15:58
Totally, such a great question. And we normalize the sentence, I need help. Or can I get help in our business? And our response is, I got you. As simple as that. I need help. I got you. You don't have to explain it. You don't, no, I got you. And if I can't get you, right, because I have too much or that would press too much onto my load is I got you, let me get you in touch with whoever it needs, whatever situation. And we got this. Cool. I went from I need help, to I got you, to we got this. I recognize I need help. I tell you that I'm right there with you. And then we end with, we got this. So, now we've solidified with we’re a team. And then it, I come as the leader, as the CEO. And I say to somebody, I need your help, regardless of who it is, the smallest to the highest. And say I need help. And so Hey, will you do this? That's a big difference. Because I'm saying to you no matter how high up I am, how low you may be in the totem pole. I'm asking for help. And when we do that, we normalize receiving it.
Pualena 17:28
Oh, that's so good. And I feel like it comes across in a more genuine way than you know, we, we try to use language like could you do this? Would you mind doing this? Consider this. And even that I feel it, you know, well intended as it may be, sometimes can come across a little bit antagonistic, or, you know, condescending, this is very vulnerable. Hey, I'm unable to handle this. And I would love to be able to lean on you. That's how that feels. And it's beautiful.
Joel 18:00
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we, I work with a lot of teams in being able to be careful with that language, because the language really does matter. And one of the things that we, the first thing that we work on teams with when we do like a corporate wellness program, is getting everybody on the same language. And so what we were referring to is known as soft talk or soft language. And so soft language is the use of softening words, to create ambiguity or uncertainty about a certain topic or choice or decision. And we hear it all the time, particularly for my corporate folks out there. When you get an email or you send an email that says, Hey, Dan, I'm just checking up on that project, wanted to see where we might be at? Just in might, two soft words. Hey, Dan, I'm checking up on that project. Where are we at? Took out might, took out just. Which one is more firm? The second one. So, now what we do is instead of dancing around, what some people may look at it and go, Wow, that's I mean, that's really forward. You know, what are they going to think? What you're actually doing is you're doing a favor to them, because you're giving them the power of choice. Hey, Dan, where are we at with that project? Dan now has the ability to say we're at this point. Great, roger that, now I know we're at. When we're saying just and might and kinda and we probably need to get that done within maybe the next month. That person is uncertain because you haven't given them a direction by eliminating soft words, we are able to be firm, when we're firm with our talk, it gives them a choice. Because if we stand in the middle of the road, for too long, sooner or later, we get run over by a car. And this is what happens with so many people at work. They're just standing the wall, I don't know, and I'm kind of waiting on it, I'll just wait until they respond to me, and then wham, they get ran over. And then who do they blame? They blame the car. Where I'm sitting there going, like, what were you doing in the middle of the road, you know, get on one side or the other. And by being able to say, this is what I need, or I need help, we're now giving power to the other person to make the decision. We're actually disempowering the person when we speak in a soft language that is ambiguous and uncertain.
Pualena 20:53
Awesome. I'm thinking of like, a million different ways that I could implement this right now. And the one thing that's coming to my mind is feedback. Because I feel like you'd have a lot of good suggestions about feedback. And this is always something that's kind of top of mind for me, because it is so much a part of what we do, right we are, we do design work. And so we're often giving each other feedback, gathering feedback from clients, providing feedback to clients. And it's always a little bit of a dance, because feedback for things like design, for things like content, you know. If our clients give us content, and we're like, oh, God, like, that is not going to work on this page. But maybe they spent a lot of time writing it. People are very attached to what they create. And I myself, like if somebody's like, I hate this page, like, Oh, my God, should I just quit this job, go find work somewhere, like, so, it's a dance on both ends. I'm curious what your thoughts are on providing feedback and also receiving feedback.
Joel 22:06
So, I would say the base is, and this is for any leaders out there, or anybody that you're, you know, whether you have a large corporation, or you have a small business, but anybody in between, we first have to understand the definition of communication. When we're talking about feedback, before feed, whatever, we have to understand first and foremost, communication. So, the definition of communication is a shared meaning between the sender and the receiver. So, if I'm talking, I'm the sender. If you're listening, you're the receiver, we need to create shared meaning. Now, here's the example I'm gonna give you and if you guys are listening on the podcast, you can't see I'm holding up a white water bottle. And if I said to Pua, hey, this is an orange water bottle. What would you say?
Pualena 22:57
I disagree. It's white.
Joel 23:00
Oh, okay. Now we could get stuck on the colour. Or I could say it's definitely white. I have no idea what you're talking about. Or it's definitely orange. I have no idea what you're talking about. Pua is this a water bottle?
Pualena 23:15
Yes.
Joel 23:16
What's the reason? Or what's the main focus of a water bottle?
Pualena 23:23
To hold water.
Joel 23:24
I agree. I agree. So now if I'm with Pua, and I say, Hey, will you hand me my water bottle? And I'm thinking it's orange. And she knows it's white. We've created shared meaning that's a water bottle. And the main focus of that water bottle is to hold water, where I want to be hydrated. So, now I've created shared meaning. And I can let go, that it's orange or white. I can move past it. But so many people get stuck on the small things. No, that's orange. No, it's white. No, it's orange. Instead of getting past it and going, okay? We don't, aren't agreeing there. That's okay, what is the main outcome or purpose of this then and being able to get to the same point. And then when we do feel like we're getting to the same shared meaning, to be able to ask this and this is very good for relationships as well guys. So bonus points, is being able to ask, what did you hear me say? Or if I'm the receiver, Pua, what I heard you say is that this bottle is meant to hold water and can help hydrate me. Is that correct?
Pualena 24:48
Yes.
Joel 24:49
Shared meaning. Now we're at a shared meaning. So when we're talking about feedback, the very first thing that we want to do is make sure that we have shared meaning before we proceed forward. Because I've worked with this with people who invest in houses and people who run businesses, that when they do ask for help, they don't ask for specific help. Hey, will you paint the walls? Hey, will you paint? Will you help me out and paint the walls with three coats of painting, and make sure that the trim at the bottom is brown? And do two coats there? And allow it to sit and wait and rest for two hours before adding the third coat? Does that, do you understand that? Yes. Okay. What I heard you say is… Now we're all on the same page, we've created shared meaning. Ah, but too often, we want to dance around with soft talk. Well, you think you could paint the room? Do you think you could paint the room? Am I asking for help? Or am I just thinking about help? No, ask for help. Straightforward. And then when I get feedback, or I see something, that's when again, we remove soft talk. And again, soft talk, you guys, I think, maybe, probably, sorta, could, should, kinda, these words that we throw around all the time, just, sorry. How often do we say sorry, for what? My business partner in the beginning would say sorry, if I kicked her in the back of the foot.
Pualena 26:28
She sounds like me.
26:31
We don't say sorry, here. We apologize, in our business. Right? Hey, I want to apologize for the way that I acted, because. Because connects you to what you're saying. Because I can say, hey, I apologize for being a jerk. Hey, I apologize for acting like a jerk, because I cherish our partnership or friendship. And I want to make sure that you know that I fully respect you. That's a big difference. And we just added in the because to it. So, I know you asked about feedback. But communication is so much larger than that. And it's being able to be very clear, what side of the street am I on? Do you hear me? I heard you say, that is correct. Do we have shared meaning? We do. Awesome. Let's proceed forward then, together.
Pualena 27:27
Great advice for life period. It works great for feedback in the workplace, and also for relationships of all kinds. What really, I was thinking a lot about, as you were speaking like, this really sounds like when people say, I hired a VA, or I'm outsourcing my social media. And I asked them to do this and they did it wrong, or it's not what I expected. Oftentimes, we expect people to read our minds, especially and like, okay, like I told you about my business. I told you what I do, I told you about my clients, why can't you create social media that looks the way I want it to look? And there's no shared definition of what everyone's talking about, and the VA is probably thinking they're nailing it, and they're doing their best, right? It's this. It's kind of a really destructive cycle that I hear about a lot. Because I think, we as business owners who do all the things don't understand necessarily the goal of what we're being, what we're asking others to do. Why are you having people create social media posts for you? Oh, it's for just to keep a presence and consistency. Why? Oh, I don't know I'm supposed to, right? There's a lot there. Anyway, that's the example that was coming to my mind. But um.
Joel 28:59
That's dead on. And what happens is and you had a perfect example, and this is what I asked people, I say, what's the outcome of producing 20, you know, clips every single month, what's the outcome? Oh, to get more, you know, social engagement. Is that the outcome? No, what's the outcome? Oh, the outcome is to close on five clients a month. Okay. So the outcome is to be actually able to close on five clients. How are we going to do that with 20 posts? What are you getting from those posts? Oh, well, if I can get five people engaged, are you going to close five people? Do you need 25? Or do you need 50? When we start really needling down and going, what is my true outcome of this? Or I want to have a conversation with my spouse. I'm going to talk to her about– What's the outcome? Or are you just emotional? And you need to figure out what's going on within you. Because if you feel like you just have the right to spew your emotions in work or in personal life, this is a you issue, not anyone else. And you need to step back. Because you're getting upset because you hired a VA, and you give him 25 minutes and expect to know everything about your business. Because you haven't created the space. Because you keep folding to everyone else. When somebody asks for your time, you just constantly give it to him. This is not a VA problem. This is a you problem. Create the space by being able to say no. Yes and no are a complete sentence. You need to say nothing else. But we tend to want to say yes or no. Because we have an insecurity. We don't want to feel left out. Right? There was a there was a trauma when I was a kid, I don't value myself worth enough. I feel like I need to do more. And so we're constantly on the go. Welcome to entrepreneurship in America.
Pualena 31:14
Yeah, you said something in a podcast that sort of made me stop. And I was like, you know, you're very, you're generally I think, from the now probably an hour and 15 minutes that we've known each other. Positive, very level-headed, you when we first met you were like, it's the best day ever. Like, I like this guy. And you said something in this podcast, you said, I love telling people that they're not special. This feels a little bit like that. Tell us about that.
Joel 31:52
Yes, Yes. You know, I love using that because it catches people's attention really quick. And we need sometimes those slaps across the face for us to be like, Whoa, there needs to be a change. And I use that sentence of you're not special. When it comes to time in the day. You're not special, you don't get another hour, no matter who you are. If you're Jeff Bezos, and you're the richest man in the world, or you're homeless on the street, everyone gets 24 hours. How are you spending those 24 hours is the most vital thing you can do every single day. And when I tell people I live the best day ever, every single day is because I know that clock is ticking, that I have 24 hours or less to be able to squeeze everything out of this day. Because I know I'm not guaranteed that tomorrow will be here. So what am I doing today, to make this day the best day that I can? Because guess what, y'all, the clock is ticking on all of us. And this isn't a doomsday. It's a wake-up call that you are losing days and weeks, and months and years faster than you can imagine. So, how do you want to spend that? How do you want to be able to put your effort into each day. And I'll tell you what, I want to be able to smile at the end of the day. I want to be able to feel complete at the end of the day. And sometimes what that means is I'm not going to finish the project. And that's just fine. And I will answer with firm talk the next day to whoever it may be. I didn't finish that. And this is when I will and I don't have to explain myself, I don't have to say my kids this or you know my work this or, and that takes time to be able to get yourself to a place or space where you can believe in yourself to be able to make those complete sentences.
Pualena 34:02
Yeah, and practice probably, right?
Joel 34:04
Repetition is the mother of all skill. Gotta put the reps in, trust the reps.
Pualena 34:13
I love it, amazing. I am like, I just, I can't get enough of you and I know that might sound weird and creepy and
Joel 34:21
It’s fully received.
Pualena 34:22
It is what it is. I would love I have just, you know what I'm going to rephrase that I have a question for you.
Joel 34:30
Please do.
Pualena 34:31
How did you come up with the name Proclivity?
Joel 34:38
So, that's another great question. I've had multiple different businesses. And if anybody knows anything about CrossFit, it when you're applying for like an affiliate name, it's most likely taken. You're like, Oh, no way somebody's got it. Because you can apply for an LLC in the state of Nevada. And there can be a Proclivity in Nevada and a Proclivity in Tennessee. Like there could be a Proclivity in Hawaii, that's fine. There's no big deal. But as an affiliate, there only can be one. And so when we were looking at names when we were starting the CrossFit affiliate, it was like note taking, note taking, note taking. And then when I was looking to open up in my own affiliate, it was note taking, note taking, note taking. And what I ended up doing is, I ended up going online, and I started off with putting in the definition of a word. I can't even remember how I got to Proclivity because it was so many different words down the line. But think about like you type in courageous, and then you look for the synonyms. And then you click on that one. And then of that word, you look at the synonym of that those and that word, you look at the synonyms of those. And what it was is I believe I was looking at like In Lifted that that's one of the coaching programs I've gone through and I'm looking at In Lift is really cool, you know, like In Lifted, lifted spirits and lifted thinking. And I believe that's what pulled me to proclivity. And when I got to proclivity, and the definition of proclivity, I was like, yeah, absolutely, right, to have a proclivity of health or proclivity of nutrition, to have a tendency or upward movement of something, right, so that I have a tendency to do something. And so with our language, I have a proclivity to positive language, I have a proclivity to positive living, positive health. So, it just landed and there was only one other proclivity in the country. And of course, they had the website www.proclivity.com. So, we dot-coded, we just dropped off the M, and it was cooler anyways.
Pualena 36:56
Totally as a fellow dot co-er. I see you.
Joel 37:02
Fellow dot co-er, yes. I love it. It's true.
Pualena 37:04
I love, yeah. And that the process of naming is much less glamorous and magical than people think it will be. Typically, we are actually I take that back. It's totally magical. It does take a little bit of time. We're, I'm in the process of naming a project right now. And we're doing these like deep brainstorming sessions. Same thing, right? We like drop a bunch of names on a list. How do we want people to feel? What are the outcome buckets that we're looking at? We want people to read the name and know exactly what it is. Do you want it to be abstract? Do you want to make up a word? Like, there's so much that comes into it? And then there's the domain, right? Does somebody else have it? Does the domain, is the domain available? And I think there's this fantasy that names will come to you in a dream. And I don't doubt that that happens. I just, as like, being someone in the process of it. It feels like a, it comes to you in ways that you don't expect. Much like when you sort of manifest things into your life. They come to you in ways that you aren't, you're praying for it to come in this way. And it shows up a year and a half later in this way. And you're like, oh, that's what that was?
Joel 38:29
Yes. Yes, absolutely. It's, you know, just like in so many things in life, we can force things instead of allow things. Allow it to come. And that doesn't mean that you're lazy with it, it doesn't mean that you know, you're sitting on a rock and it's just going to smack you like a butterfly in the face. It's being able to go, Hmm, I'm going to stay curious through this process. Because all too often in business and in life. We tend to get into conflict way too quick. That name is not available. Gosh, dang, it, see, oh my gosh, you know, I'm never going to be able to find a business name that works in this. You know, this is how it's starting right now. How's it going to end? And maybe I shouldn't be a business owner and whoa. Why don't we do this go, Oh, Hmm. Interesting. That name is taken. Alright, that makes sense. Now, we are still allowing ourselves to stay open, stay open to the solution. Because if we freak out naturally as humans, we have the fight or flight response. Right? The sympathetic and parasympathetic is part of our nervous system. And what most people don't realize is it is driving majority of your decisions. And you're just pointing into your like your reality. But really, if we start understanding when the sympathetic, the fight or flight is on, we are not going to find a solution, dang near anytime. That's when the horse blinders come on. And we get tunnel vision. We've heard the saying, like you can't see the forest through the tree. That's what happens when we get really freaked out about something, we only see the threat that's right in front of us. You know, we've ever been in like a high intense situation, we only remember seeing exactly what's in front of me. When they're like, Yeah, you didn't see the dinosaur crossing the street, right? No, I only saw that kid like, walking towards the pool and I knew I had to save them. That's the only thing we see. Because that's what is meant for our body to do is quick, bring us in. So, as business owners, if we can stay curious, by using a simple technique that sounds like this. Hmm. That is a cue to your brain to go, look around. Hmm. Interesting. When you see most people, the wise people, even movies or whatever else, you'll see him just kind of lean back and go. Hmm. Okay. And the other person's like, what do you mean? Okay, what are you talking about?
Pualena 41:20
That can be so intimidating. When you're like talking to someone they're like, huh, you're like, what does that mean?
Joel 41:25
Exactly? If you're an upregulated state, you're gonna be like, was does that mean? *Zazoop* That's what I was telling you about my girls. Today on my team just climbing the tree. They were climbing the tree, they got stuck on something, they just got zoop, zoop, zoop, zoop, zoop. And they didn't see. All they saw was a threat right in front. When you come in as a leader, and you're already downregulated, you go, it’s right there. And they go, Oh, my gosh, how did you do that? There was nothing special, right? You were just in a parasympathetic or rest state where the brain is open. And it's not right in front of your eyes. And so when you–
Pualena 42:09
I feel like I might need to talk to you every single day.
Joel 42:14
Yeah, come to join the team.
Pualena 42:16
You are just so downregulated as that you're like a neutral state, or you work hard to make sure that that is a thing that you have a muscle that you created for yourself. And I do feel like that I tend to lean towards a little bit of a higher frequency of I don't know what the word is.
Joel 42:37
Up there. You climb the ladder.
Pualena 42:40
Yeah. Like what does that mean? This is what it must mean. If it means that then there's this and this and this and this and this and the whole story is created in my head. And then I have to restart when I learned what the real story is.
Joel 42:52
Oh my gosh, you would love hanging out with the Proclivity girls. That's exactly what happens. That's exactly what happens. And usually when it gets to that point, Pua, I go. Okay, let's get up. Let's go take a walk. Because we need to shake it off or let's get up and we do this quite often. We go play Frisbee out in the parking lot. And what it does is it shakes us off. Because sometimes what we need and I was talking to my business partner, Emily about this, is she was getting really stuck on a client who was getting really upregulated. And when somebody gets really upregulated on call because there's some fear that's coming in. What we need to do, is we need to help them down-regulate, and we can do that but with talking slow, maybe asking them to start breathing a little bit. Or I can take them to right field. They’re in left field, I can take them right field and I go did you see the Barbie movie? And immediately they're gonna go? Well, we were talking about deep trauma and you're talking about the Barbie movie. Yeah, did you see the Barbie movie? You haven't? Or you did? What do you think about it? What it does, it takes us completely out of the situation and brings us into a new thought pattern. So, it's a cognitive reappraisal or cognitive shift. And sometimes as leaders, what we need to do is recognize that everybody is way up in their chest and super tunnel vision. And we go, alright, everybody get up. And everyone's gonna be like, woah we're in this heated conversation. Everybody get up. We're going for a walk. Actually, leave your shoes here. Everybody take your shoes off. And I want you to be bare feet. And everybody's like, what is happening? But it's there already left that intense conversation because they're like wait we’re barefoot walking through the office now. Yep, come on. Let's go. And what people will do is that are now too, they went from left field right field. Now their brain is going, Wait, what's happening here, and they've left that behind. So, then you could walk them around the office, bring them back, have them jump up a couple times, reset that central nervous system, and then go cool. Let's sit down. And now people can get back to business, right? We're open to it.
Pualena 45:18
I love that. It's for people who relate as sort of perfectionist, or, you know, having to finish the project. Or the longer I sit at my desk, the more my business will succeed. I've had that thought, right, like, you're sitting here, and you're like, opening and closing emails, and you're like, I'm doing stuff right now. And so, therefore, I will make money soon. This like, weird thing that we do to ourselves. And there's a very, what is it called? Gosh, I'm totally blanking on the phrase. Anyway. If we can intentionally trick almost like trick ourselves, right? We set an alarm, we set calendar notifications, go for a walk, get up, you've been sitting here for too long. I love the thing on the Apple Watch where it's like, you haven't stood up for 15 minutes, time to walk around, you know, and it's breaking those patterns that we've created for ourselves in those sort of stories that we tell ourselves that we believe to be true, even though there's no evidence that me sitting here for eight hours straight without a break means that I will be more successful. It's, we do so many funny things in our heads. But I love that just sort of changing your state and shaking it up and understanding that getting up and walking around for 10 minutes will improve your productivity not to take away from it.
Joel 46:58
That's right.
Pualena 47:00
Yeah, I will think of the word probably in a week and a half.
Joel 47:03
Yes. Well. One of the things that I do, and I do this personally, and I do this in business, one, I talk to Siri all the time, all the time. Okay. And it's one of the most productive tools that I can give to any business person. One, and I'll give you and we’ll talk in terms of time management because that is important. The 50-10 rule, and you've already nailed it all say to Siri, Hey, Siri, set a timer for 50 minutes. And Siri will say, starting now. And there she is. Right there. And what that does, to the brain, it goes, Oh, it's time to work. So for 50 minutes, no distractions work, at 10 minutes. Now there's a finish line. There's already a 50-minute timer. Okay? No, we're gonna just can't cancel you up. And so what it does is it really helps us to zone in, and I do it at home when it's time, like, I gotta clean the house. Okay, I'm gonna set a timer for 50 minutes. And then I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna clean my bathroom, I'm gonna do this. And I'm just gonna wait until the timer tells me, Okay, that's it. And then when it's in, I'm able to go, Alright, cool. If I need to tidy up, the last thing I'm finishing, cool. I'll tidy up the last thing I'm finishing, but then I'll be done. And being able to utilize that as a tool, I have found to be so essential. Some people use sand timers, and so on and so forth. But I always know that I'm gonna have Siri with me. And so being able to utilize that piece, and that tool has been lights out for me, in terms of productivity.
Pualena 48:55
I love it. It's kind of like a Pomodoro the kind of thing, like a giant work tabada.
Joel 49:01
Exactly. And as a cross fitter. That makes total sense to me. Maybe it doesn't to other people, but it does for me.
Pualena 49:14
So the the phrase I was looking for or I guess the law is Parkinson's Law where like, if you have a fixed like a task and you give it a fixed amount of time, I'm going to give this task eight hours of my whole day. It'll probably take me eight hours with a lot of distraction. If I give it 50 minutes. Maybe I'll get a chunk of it done, but you know, you'll probably be a little more productive. Anyway. Just wanted to pat myself on the back for googling that and find out before we jump off.
Joel 49:42
I love it, I love it. Good old Google.
Pualena 49:46
Oh, good old Google almost as good as Siri.
Joel 49:50
But not
Pualena 49:53
Oh, amazing. I truly could talk to you forever. And I'm super grateful that you were that you agreed to spend this time with me today. And just for the work that you do in the world, you are an incredible human, your energy is something I think we all need a little bit of. And if anybody's listening to this, and they're like, please don't hang up yet. There's more, Joel, go to the Proclivity podcast and just enjoy this grounded, very, like approachable, kind, and yet direct and intentional energy that you bring to the world. I really appreciate it. It is a breath of fresh air for someone like me, who just tends to be a little high-strung. And it's been an absolute pleasure working with you and chatting with you. And I hope this is just the beginning.
Joel 50:48
It is just the beginning and Pua I really appreciate you bringing me on your podcast, and yeah, I'm here anytime you need me to just pull down that balloon. That's known as Pua ground you there for a little bit, just let me know.
Pualena 51:04
Oh, thank you. How can people find you? How can they learn more about what you do and all that?
Joel 51:11
You guys if you're interested in learning more about Proclivity, of course, you can go to our social on Instagram, it's proclivity.co you can go to our website www.proclivity.co or you can email us at [email protected] or email Emily, who's the nutrition brains of it at [email protected].
Pualena 51:35
Excellent. Thank you so much again. I appreciate you. I'll talk to you soon.
Joel 51:39
Thank you. Talk to you soon.
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In this episode, Pua engages in a conversation with Jessica Lamarre, a mother and the founder of a female empowerment business. Jessica shares her personal journey from electrical engineering to her current role of guiding women toward self-discovery and empowerment. She talks about the struggle of feeling unfulfilled despite outward success and her journey of reconnecting with her true self. This episode is your time to be introspective and give yourself space to absorb the discussion and insights.
Jessica emphasizes the importance of embracing emotions, especially those that might hold us back. She discusses how healing involves addressing different aspects of ourselves and transforming our inner relationships. The conversation explores topics such as finding one's purpose, navigating fear and judgment, the role of meditation in healing, and understanding the relationship between action and inspiration. Jessica provides insight into her course creation process and encourages listeners to trust divine timing in their own journeys.
About Jessica Lamarre
Jessica Lamarre is a mother of three and the founder of a female empowerment business. She transitioned from a career as an electrical engineer to becoming a healer and empowerment coach. Her journey of personal transformation and rediscovering her purpose led her to create courses and resources that help women connect with their true selves and embrace their desires. Jessica's work focuses on healing, self-awareness, and empowerment.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Free Meditations: Jessica-LamarreReclaim Your Self by Jessica LamarreDr. Nicole LePera: the.holistic.psychologistThe Secret & The Greatest Secret by Rhonda Byrne--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Jessica LaMarre:
Website: lovepersonalgrowth.comInstagram: @lovepersonalgrowthFacebook: lovepersonalgrowthTranscript:
Jessica 0:00
When we have feelings, it's for a reason, it's sad. Or it, you know, there's outrage within us, there's hurt within us. And if the true goal is to love all of ourselves, then we must allow all of ourselves to be present. And even love the sadness, and the hurt and the pain.
Pualena 0:30
Amazing. Well, welcome to the podcast. I am so thrilled and so excited to have Jessica Lamar from Love Personal Growth here on the podcast today. Welcome. And thank you so much for being here.
Jessica 0:45
Thank you, Pua, so much for having me. It's an honour to be here. I'm excited to inspire some people, feel some joy to take some action.
Pualena 0:54
Love it. It's so I, if anybody is listening and not watching, I mean, the video is not available anywhere, as of today. So, you probably are all listening. I just need you to know like Jessica has the most infectious smile I've ever seen. Like, I just you just can't help but feel really good. And we just met but I'm like, Yeah, we're gonna be besties. Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you, again for being here. And I would love for you to share with our audience, just introduce yourself. And you know, how did you get into the work that you do? What was your journey like? I know that's a loaded question. But feel free to take it in whatever direction you'd like.
Jessica 1:38
Yes. So now, I'm a mother of three. And I run a female empowerment business. And I do courses and live and digital. But really, it's all about reconnecting women back to the divine essence of who they are and uncovering what they want. How did I get there? Quite a long journey, but I woke up. It was over time, right? But one day, it just became too much. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't know how to get what I wanted, even if I did. And so but I created a beautiful, wonderful life for myself. I was an electrical engineer, I spent 15 years in technology. You know, I had multiple homes still and the cars. I had all the things that I was taught to want, all of the things that from the outside in looks so amazing, like great Instagram pics posts, but from the inside out, felt such a deep void. Who am I? What am I hear for? What am I truly called to do? Well, I had a really cool career and in technology, and it just I knew that wasn't the reason that I was placed here. And so I started the journey back to myself, I went through a very difficult this like, just difficult time in my life and 2017-2018 in which I was pregnant, and we didn't know if the baby would make it. And it was just so hard to be in a space in which you're holding a child that you don't know will live, to giving birth to a pure miracle. And saying this is just show me what you want me to do. And I'll do it. I'm ready to transform, and then spending the time to do my own healing work so that I can show up and do support other women and their healing work.
Pualena 3:35
Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. And thank you for being here and doing what you do and bringing your story to light and to life. I think a lot of people who are going through challenges and sort of feeling that emptiness sort of suffer in silence thinking like maybe this is a phase. Everything is exactly what I've wanted. Why do I feel this way? And I'd love to hear you know, do you have anything to share with someone who may not even realize they're feeling that way until they hear this podcast?
Jessica 4:12
Yes. It's so funny that you say that because I was talking to a couple people on my team today. And they said the women don't even realize that they need you. So, we need to make sure that we're sharing the message that they can hear. And there's a quote by Albert Einstein that says you can't solve the problem with the same brain you used to create it. So, you can't solve this problem on the same level of thinking, right? You have to shift your thinking and shift your perspective. You can know right now, that life isn't exactly what you want. But being on that frequency, if you will, that vibration isn't going to get you to where you want to go. In order to get you to where you want to go. First of all, you have to realize what you don't want and that's a great place to start. Like, what don't you want? I didn't want to feel such resentment to my partner. Like, I felt such resentment. I didn't want to snap at my kids. I didn't want to work in a career that just didn't feel fulfilling. I didn't want to not know what I liked, and what I had wanted. I wanted time for myself. I wanted to know who I was, I wanted to know what my purpose was, I wanted to know what my passions were, I wanted to travel, I wanted all of these things. But at the time, I was just so focused on what I didn't want. And that's a beautiful place to start. So, start there.
Pualena 5:37
Oh, I love that. You, it's when you describe sort of that energy of, you know, how do we make the shift? How do we create that awareness? It's almost like when you proofread your own stuff, you're like, it's perfect. And someone else reads it, and they're like, are you serious? So, I love and to me, like, your approach already feels just very gentle. And I think a lot of times, if we start to feel this way, we start to really get down on ourselves like, Well, come on, like, why don't you understand what you want and what you don't want, it's you, like, the only person that can make that decision is you. And I love that really gentle approach. Like it's okay to not know, the awareness is the first step. And then we can move through what the rest of that looks like. And another question that came to mind as you were speaking, a lot of guidance out there, coaches, like self-help, a lot of that is around like finding your purpose and connecting your purpose to your passion and doing what you love. And I talk to a lot of people, you know, I'm in the course creation space. And there's sort of two schools of thought, right? There are people who have this passion or this, you know, they have a realm of expertise, that they want to turn into a course and teach other people and create a legacy. And then there's these other people who love the idea of creating legacy and sharing knowledge, but they aren't quite sure what that should be or what that is for them. And so there's a lot of pressure around like, What is my purpose? How do I know? How do I find that? I don't think I'm living it right now. Do you have any guidance or support for people who might just be trying to figure that part out?
Jessica 7:31
Absolutely. So, first, what I'll say is that place can be pretty lonely. And I just want to honour how you're feeling there. Because you can feel like something is missing from you. So, just honoring that it feels like something's missing. And then taking a shift in perspective, to say, it's showing me what I truly desire. And so when we're in that space, and here's what I've discovered, I've done 1000s of hours of healing and holistic education, and I'm learning and I'm getting ready to start my master's in women's spirituality. I'm so invested and passionate about what I do. Is that once we start doing healing work, and when I say healing work, I mean, honoring where we are, getting, you know, looking at the cycles in our life, the patterns in our life that just don't like even the pattern. I don't know what my purpose is, I don't want my passion is, well, then how does that make me feel that makes me feel alone, that makes me feel like I don't know what I'm doing that makes me feel behind in life. Well, let's look into that cycle. So, that's the healing that I'm talking about. And then, I mean, I go really, really deep, but that let's just stay there. And so being in that cycle, once we let go of that, once we heal that, what happens is more space inside of us opens. And our gifts intuitively come to the surface, our passions intuitively come to the surface, and here's why. So, that part that is so focused on what she doesn't have that passion or that purpose or that lack, she is so focused on that and she's working to control it and perfect it. And that's where the energy is going into controlling and perfectionism. And most likely people pleasing. She wants to please others. Where when we release that it opens her up to a creativity that she's never experienced before. And one of the best ways to do this is just write it down. What is my cycle when I start to think about this? When I think well, I don't know my purpose. I don't know my passion, and everybody else seems to know it and I feel so behind. Okay, well I want you to write it, draw a circle. And then I want you to write I don't know my passion, then write how does this make me feel? Write that down. What happens when I feel this way? What are my behaviours, and then just keep going around in the circle and watch how it's manifesting in your life? Awareness is the first step to healing.
Pualena 10:16
That is so beautiful. Again, very gentle, very approachable. And it's, I think, giving somebody a starting place can be so powerful, because a lot of times you're like, Googling, how do I find my purpose? How do I find it, right? It's like, we're not looking at, we're not looking within, we're looking at everything around us, which just leads to that sort of like cycle of overwhelm. So, I love this approach so much, and it's very, it just feels like you're almost like setting up a date with yourself. Like, I'm gonna pour my favourite drink, I'm going to sit down, and I'm just going to reflect. I'm going to draw this circle and just see what happens. You know, it's just, I think that even that, in and of itself can shift our energy, it did for me as you were talking about it. So, take it or leave it, but that's hopefully something.
Jessica 11:09
Love it. Love it.
Pualena 11:11
Amazing. Yeah. And I love your approach to healing as well. And I think that is sort of a buzzword these days, where people are like, healing, do I need that? I feel like I need that, I need to heal. Do I reach out to a healer? Like, what is the first step of that actual healing process? And do we ever come to a place where we don't need healing anymore? Or where it's not beneficial? Or is it kind of like, you know, you can get to a place of maintenance healing, like, what is that journey in that process for you?
Jessica 11:46
Yeah, I'm getting emotional as you ask that question. So, I'll take you just a little bit on my journey to give you insight. So, I'm a high achiever, okay? And so the women that come to me are typically high achievers. So, we've taken and I'll classify trauma in the same way that because that can be a trigger word, how Nicole LePera says it, it's when we truly can't be ourselves. Like when we can't fully be ourselves. So, we've all experienced that, where we can't be ourselves, we can't show up as ourselves. So, we take that, and then we turn that into achievement. And so I thrived on achievement. That's, that's how I lived. And then when I started my healing journey, I did the same thing. So, I did every single week, I was doing different types of healing. Then I went in and I did like eight, then I got qualified and certified in angel energy healing and Reiki master and all these different healing modalities, right? Like I just took it to the extreme, because that was the achiever in me. But then once I realized that we have this whole lifetime to heal, we don't have to rush. There is no need to rush. Everything happens in divine timing. I was able to slow down. And, and that's what I would say to those who say, Yeah, I know, healing is a buzzword, and I maybe, I don't know where to begin, but I know I need healing. Okay, beautiful, just start within, start within yourself. It doesn't have to be hard, and we don't have to make it bigger than it is. And I know meditation is really hard for some people, believe me, I know, I've been there. And it's I'm looking at the clock. And I'm like, what it feels like four hours has been two minutes. Are you joking? Um, but I create meditations. And once we allow the parts of us and let them come, like the one that's overwhelmed the one that wants to talk about everything, and the one that wants to get a point across and the observer who's also hearing everything, and we acknowledge them. And we say, Hey, I see you, I hear you, I'm gonna let you talk for a few minutes. And then I just want I like it just a couple minutes of, not quiet time. Because, you know, it's kind of unrealistic, but some time just for peace within me. That's a beautiful way to start a relationship with yourself. Because it's all healing really is, is healing the relationship with ourselves.
Pualena 14:16
That is so beautiful. And I am wondering, so when you talk about people feeling like it's difficult to meditate or, you know, we sort of bury ourselves in our achievements. It almost sounds like allowing ourselves the quiet space for our thoughts and our feelings to sort of come into our body is a place that we're very uncomfortable. And so how can we just keep ourselves as busy as possible and you know, achievements are things that are meant to be recognized externally. So, if people are looking at our achievements they're distracted, and not paying attention to the parts of us that we may feel vulnerable about, or the parts that we feel might be broken. And that is kind of a scary place for a lot of people to be. And so I love that you offer the support that you do because it can be scary, it can be lonely. There, it can, there's a lot of uncertainty. And so to have resources like you and what you've created and have available to people, it's really beautiful. And I would say, you know, if somebody's like, Oh my God, that's me. They're describing me. Like, yeah, do you have meditations that are available? Or how can people dip their toe in the water of this process? If they're feeling like, Okay, I don't know. I think I might need this, but I'm not sure.
Jessica 15:50
Absolutely. So, you can go to lovepersonalgrowth.com or @ lovepersonalgrowth on Instagram. And it's in my bio, free meditations. They're free. Go to my website, www.love personalgrowth.com, go to work with me, free meditations. They are free.
Pualena 16:07
Beautiful. Thank you. That is that's really, really generous. And I hope that people take you up on that. I promised we’re not wrapping up, usually, that's the question we asked at the end. But I just wanted to throw that in there. We can talk about it again at the end. But yeah, I love that. And I'm curious. If someone's listening to this, and they're like, I actually feel pretty good. I don't feel broken. I don't feel like I need to be fixed. I don't feel like I need healing. But perhaps I may not be rising to my full potential or there might be something that I'm not aware is missing. Is that a space that you serve? And what are your thoughts around that?
Jessica 16:49
That's the space that I serve the most. Yes, that's the space that I serve the most. So, I support the women who support women. I, if you are out there, and you're feeling like, gosh, I know that I was meant to step in my into my power to speak my truth, to share what I know, to share this knowledge. But I have an irrational fear. Like it doesn't, I don't know exactly where it comes from. I don't know where it's rising from. That's the work that I do. So, that can show up in a couple of ways. And I just want to give some examples. So, that you know, that can show up in self-sabotage. That can, so, let's say, Okay, well, I'm going to post this, I promise, I'm going to post this and then you don't post it, or I'm going to get this out there. And then you don't get it out there. This is how it shows up. This is how it shows up so that you can see it. So you can physically see what's happening. It will also show up in ways in your relationships. So, relationships are a direct mirror for us. So, let's say that you have a partner and you don't feel supported. And you're like, well, they just don't support me. I work a lot with women on that as well. Because really, it's just a mirror, am I supporting myself? Am I giving myself what I need? So, those are just a couple of ways in business and in home. And then in the relationship with yourself, what can sometimes happen is that you don't give yourself what you need. So, you push and you push and you push and you're giving to everyone else. But then when it comes to you, you're either not getting enough adequate rest or not getting enough time to yourself. And I'm not talking about just like self-care, I'm talking about truly loving yourself. And being there for yourself. Self-care is important. And also so is loving yourself and having compassion.
Pualena 18:52
Oh my gosh. You guys can see me as you're speaking I was like, Oh my God, that's me. It’s so and like, even there's a lot of judgment, self-judgment that comes through, right, like, how could I let myself do that? Or I don't want to admit to anybody that there are ways that I like, don't follow through with what I'm going to say or let things slide or, you know, take care of others before myself. It feels like when we are in a position of authority, we don't want to show that vulnerable underbelly of like, wait, I'm not perfect, but people can't know that. Do you find that that's true for you and sort of how you show up to your audience?
Jessica 19:41
Yeah, absolutely. So, I did not come from a place of feeling. I spent 15 years in technology where I could not share how I felt. And now when I share how I feel or if I have a difficult time and I need to share about that can be very, very difficult for me. Also, something else that is very difficult for me is sharing some of the knowledge and the wisdom that I have, because of the patriarchal beliefs that have been instilled within me. And honouring that there's parts of me that are scared. And so I want to address this, because sometimes we can, like you talked about that judgment, there are times when we do need to slow down. And we need to uncover where is this coming from? Is this coming from a place that this part of me is not ready to share? Because if it is, then I need to understand that part of me and help it feel better. So, that we work together. Because when we don't, that's when the sabotage comes. So, if we can get them on the same page, you can imagine, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Inside Out, where it has like little parts, or if you've seen the movie Frozen two where she goes into Ahtohallan at the end, and she's, there's this like, river full of memories, and she sees all the memories. And she sees herself as a small child, and then she sees the snow that's like inside of us. And that monster that she created, if you will, and those other parts of her that she created, those are like inside of us. And if we don't honour them, then they're gonna slow us down. And they're not doing it maliciously. They're not bad. They're just scared. And so it's when we go inside and say, Okay, I keep not posting this, and I know that I want to, I'm not going to judge myself, I'm going to understand myself.
Pualena 21:45
Wow, that is, again, just a beautiful awareness around some of these sort of signs that we can be gentle with ourselves, we can work through this, it doesn't have to be these traits, or these habits that we've created, because we are having these experiences. Sometimes feel like they define us, right? Like, I'm just a procrastinator. I'm just someone who doesn't follow through. And I don't think that that has to be true. It's just, as you said, awareness is key. And then we move forward from there. So, beautiful. I love it.
Jessica 22:24
I love your questions, by the way, they're amazing.
Pualena 22:30
Oh, it's just sort of, I don't know, they just come to me I wish I had left. But I don't. Yeah, I would love to talk a little bit about courses. And just from a framework of, you know, as somebody who is a service provider, you are, you know, a healer, a guide, a coach, whatever that language is for you or for anybody else. That is a space that we feel very connected to and drawn to. And I'm sure you know, you wake up every day feeling pulled to continue to serve. And I'm so curious what your journey has been in, you know, creating your course. Like what came first, your services or your course? And how did you decide to translate what you do into a course? And what is that customer experience like for you?
Jessica 23:28
Yes. So, I did healing sessions first, intuitive guidance sessions first, to understand really what the main struggles were. And even prior to that, actually, I took my own journey. And I think that that's the most powerful thing we can do, is take our own journey of transformation, of liberation, of independence, freedom, whatever you want to call it, and channel that into the work that we do. And then we take what we know, what worked for us, and we share it with others. And then we can take that and put that into a course. So, I have a few digital courses. However, currently in the process of creating a course that lights me up, just like light me, up I'm so excited. This is like the perfect timing to be on this call because that is what it was, you know, it took me, I'm a very vulnerable transparent person. So, it took me a while to create this course. This course specifically that I'm recording right now, has been in the works since October of last year. And I had to allow the messages to flow through. I had to write, I had to journal, I had to experience what was possible and then bring it forth. I had to, and then I also had to use what I knew, and the healing sessions that I do and the intuitive guidance sessions that I do. And then once I had that foundation, I said, Okay, now I'm ready to share this, and teach and give this insight to women who are ready to receive it. And here's what I want to share. Not everybody is ready to receive our message. And that's not personal at all. That's not personal at all. It is just some people are not ready to receive what we have. And that's okay, we are not for everyone.
Pualena 25:41
Oh, let us just dive into this. Because what you're what I'm hearing from you is hopefully relieving to so many people. A lot of the clients that we work with, well, I would say half and half, half of them have a course already, they just want redesigned or, you know, we're just sort of revamping, you know, painting the house, if you will. The other half they are in the course creation process. And they may either be looking for accountability or guidance or, you know, they've sort of been like hitting their head against the wall saying, like, why can't I get this course done? What is what's wrong with me? This is something that I want to teach, but I just can't seem to either write the outline or finish the recordings, or, you know, what is it. And so they reach out, because perhaps we just need a nudge, or somebody to hold our hand and guide us along. And what I'm hearing from you, which is so beautiful, is that it's a process that must unfold. And when we don't allow it to, and we don't allow the messages to come through. I would like, so I had this conversation the other day, and I'm trying to figure out how to like, properly explain this in the context of our conversation. We were talking about the difference between somebody who is like, inspired to create an impact and a legacy and a transformation and results, versus somebody who has heard that the course creation space is like a really big deal right now. And they just are like, what could I teach? What kind of course could I sell? And I don't think that you're a bad person if you're if you think that, right? Like if you're inspired to create a course because you know that this is a space, that could be a great place to share your knowledge. Like that's great. But without the inspiration, without that connection to the person that you're serving, and the transformation that you're providing, something will feel off. And what I hear from you is that the journey that you allowed yourself to go through, is going to make sure that the course feels complete and that that transformation feels heartfelt and intentional. And so then I feel like that's gonna give people a little bit of like an excuse of like, well, I'm just gonna let the messages come through, and I don't need to finish it. All right, okay, I hear you. What, what do we do about that? Right? Like, is that just your way of continuing to not take action? Or are we really giving space to those messages?
Jessica 28:31
Yeah. So, what I would invite people to do as they're listening or being with their course, is where do you feel it in your body? So, when you talked about the those who are inspired, I felt that in my heart. You feel it in the heart, you know that it's coming through, you know that there's something greater that's working through you, you know, it, you, there's no doubt. Those who know that digital courses are helpful, and they can serve a lot of people. I feel that in my sacral, so down in the womb space, right? Because it's creation, that's where creation happens. So, are you filling it there? And when you talked about sharing the message and allowing it to come through you and am I just going to wait for the message or am I going to hold, I feel that in my throat. And so if it stuck in your throat, and you're not getting it out, that's your indicator. If you could feel it in your heart, and you know that it's coming through you, you know that there's a message that is coming through, and maybe you just start with the first little bits that you have, and you put it into a Canva presentation, and it may not all be there because that's exactly what I did. And in December I had like his entire presentation like I have no idea what to do with this presentation, but I'm just going to hold it until I'm ready. And then more and more and more came through. But I knew in my heart that there was something greater. I wasn't just trying to create to create a course, I didn't even know what that would be used for. But I knew in my heart that it would be used. And then once I started to feel like, Oh, this is really coming through, I'm ready to get this out there. It was time. So, that's the distinction. It's tapping into our bodies, to allow our bodies to inform us if are we stuck. Are we procrastinating because we're scared? Or are we waiting and listening and allowing the messages to flow through us?
Pualena 30:51
Thank you for giving us a strategy of how to listen to our intuition. That is, you know, people say it all the time. What is your intuition telling you? What is your gut check? And like, I don't know, I don't know how to listen to that. Like, what is it? It's telling me something, but I don't know what that is. But when you feel it in certain parts of your body, and I love Oh, my gosh, I love that you created a positive distinction around both of those schools of thought, because they are both positive and beneficial. And the intention can be good. And this stuckness is something that I feel often. And it's almost as if like, is the, I'm talking pointing to my throat, by the way, I realize, again, people are listening. Is that the feeling in your throat can kind of feel a little bit fear based? Is that?
Jessica 31:51
Absolutely. It can be terrifying to speak your truth and to share what you know. Absolutely terrifying. Because, I mean, there are many reasons for it, some of which we won't get into here. But when we speak or when we've spoken as young children or even now, there's a great fear of judgment. Will they like what I say? Will it resonate with them? Will they learn from it, so all of these things, but when we come from that heart space, and we know that no matter who hears it, they will feel it on some level of their being. You know, that is where like just moves through. And the throat is able to just speak it out and share it knowing that it will find the right people. It will. There's no doubt about it because it was inspired to come through us.
Pualena 32:52
You are I've had chicken skin or goosebumps, chicken skin, I think is like Hawaii's way of saying that it. Have you heard that before chicken skin?
Jessica 32:57
Yes, I have my sister in law lives in Maui.
Pualena 33:03
Is she okay? There's a lot going on there right now.
Jessica 33:06
Yeah, that was terrifying. She was volunteering yesterday when my daughter called her, she's praying for all of the people in Maui right now. Especially Lahaina.
Pualena 33:15
Horrible, horrible situation. Yeah, we'll just give a moment of space for that. But they’re okay?
Jessica 33:24
Yeah, she is yeah. She is on the other side of the island.
Pualena 33:30
I'm sure I believe this comes out in a week or two. So, hopefully, by that point, things will have been a lot more settled. But right now holy moly. I almost I was very distracted by it before we jumped on. And I really had to just like take a few breaths. And this is actually the perfect podcast for us to be recording today because you are very keyed into energy and how we can sort of allow energy to move through our body to create positive impact. And somebody once told me and so we are referring to there were wildfires that tore through the town of Lahaina on Tuesday, and there is just destruction and death. And it's the recovery efforts are underway. And so it just it the vibe has been very heavy. And somebody once told me, you know, you can feel sad when things happen, you know, you can think about animals being abused and fires and all of these things. And your sadness is part of the vibration and the energy that goes out into the world. Where if we can uplift that energy and provide, you know, it's happening, regardless of what our energy is. And so if we can shift into a space of hope and inspiration and support and love that can both help ourselves to sort of become a little bit more hopeful. And also, you know, energy is powerful. And so I always think about that. And I think about, you know, how am I showing up in times like this, and I think you really bring that to light in a way that like, obviously, I'm tripping over my words, I don't know how to talk about this. This is your realm. Any thoughts? I know, it's not course-related or business-related. But any thoughts around that as somebody who does this in their everyday life?
Jessica 35:28
Yeah. So, first of all, I’ll say that was beautiful. And second of all, I'll say, yes, let's give into the uplifting energy after we feel our true feeling. We don't want to gaslight ourselves. We wouldn't say to someone else, so don't be sad. Just be happy. Send them love. Right? When we have feelings, it's for a reason, it's sad. Or it, you know, there's outrage within us, there's hurt within us. And if the true goal is to love all of ourselves, then we must allow all of ourselves to be present. And even love the sadness, and the hurt and the pain.
Pualena 36:19
You are probably my favourite person. I just love every word that comes out of your mouth. And I just thank you. I love, love, love that. And I almost want to take that little snippet and share it today. I mean. Yeah, it's, that's beautiful. And I think you're right, there's a lot of like, you know, be happy, be positive. That's how you're supposed to live. And there are parts of us that, you know, we are balanced. And we have to honour that. So juicy. I am Okay, where were we? We were talking about courses? And I did have a question. And I can't remember what that was, Oh, okay. So, there's a lot of like when we talk to our clients who are in the process of creating courses, where there were no courses before, there was only, you know, personal coach, like one on one coaching, or maybe small group coaching or in-person events. And, you know, COVID really brought this course space to light, very widely. And even before that, we all knew that course, like online courses was a way for us to essentially serve an unlimited audience where we ourselves would have energetic limits. So, super beautiful. And yet, there's a lot that comes up with people where they're like, I can serve people better. You know, if I talk to them, or this isn't, it's not going to be enough? Or how do I know that they're going to take the course? How do I know that the transformation is going to happen? And that can often stop people from wanting to create courses or put them out there. And what are your just sort of thoughts around that space? And how have you navigated being able to provide your service via this sort of asynchronous experience?
Jessica 38:28
A couple of thoughts come to mind there, you're gonna have to go with me into the mystical for this answer. But there is no time and space, right? In all actuality, gravity creates time here. And so we are with them. And while we can help multiple people, if you have a course, and it's not getting a lot of use, since there is technically no time or space, wherever they are there watching you and it is impacting your energy. So, you must open your energy up to a wider, vaster space, if you will, or network to hold the space for all of the people who want to watch your course. So, I'll say that. You are there with them, whether it is live or recorded. You're there with them. Okay, so that was getting into the mystical. Into well, I don't know what will happen with their transformation that comes into control and letting go of control. That is not easy. I will tell you. It's not easy, but that comes down to trust. Trusting that what you are putting out there will make the impact that is necessary and needed at that time.
Pualena 39:54
This is, I'm just going to give this episode to every single person that comes through the door. It's beautiful. And I that it's very difficult to let go of control. I think as an entrepreneur, as a female, as someone who perhaps is a high achiever, or, you know, there's a part of us as course creators and service providers and healers. And, you know, we feel a sense of responsibility that if we're going to put ourselves out there, that we are responsible for taking people to where they need to go. They're giving us their money, they're giving us their energy, their time, we need to ensure that we are honouring that. And I will say, just by putting the course out there, you are honouring that. And I love again, that sort of approach of like, people will hear the message when they're ready, and not everybody's ready. And so if somebody buys your course, and they don't make it through Module One, it doesn't mean your course was terrible, it means that they just weren't ready, right?
Jessica 41:02
Absolutely, yes. Yes, you do what lights you up, you do what feels good, and you share the messages that feel good within you. And whoever is ready to hear that will hear it.
Pualena 41:17
Beautiful. It's, I feel like I'm just gonna put that like somewhere up here, so that anytime we record a podcast, we get to relieve that pressure of, you know, how am I going to get this to the people that need it, the people that need it will hear it.
Jessica 41:33
Yeah, and that's a very, that's the prime difference between masculine and feminine energy, right? Masculine energy is very much about going out and getting, right? They’re the hunters, where the females, they attract what they need, right? But it will come to us. And so when we allow that when we allow, this is going to be, but when we allow ourselves to be taken care of when we allow ourselves to receive love, when we allow that to come to us. It changes.
Pualena 42:04
I'd imagine, and let me know if this is true for you and your experience that when we work through these sort of inner feelings and inner workings and we go through these healing processes for ourselves as humans and in our personal life, we then start to reflect those attractions and the abundance may start to flourish. Also, in our business, even though inside we like to keep those things very separate.
Jessica 42:37
Absolutely, yes.
Pualena 42:40
That was a hard yes, people.
Jessica 42:42
Hard yes.
Pualena 42:44
Oh, I love it. And it feels very, sometimes we can feel like we have to force things, you know, like, I have to write my weekly email newsletter, I have to build my list, I have to post every day, I have to do all these things. And if I do that consistently, for long enough, all these other challenges will start to go away. Right? I will eventually grow my list, I will eventually bring leads into the pipeline, I will, if I do this thing that I'm supposed to do, even though I don't want to do it, then the results will come. And that feels like a really, I don't know, it feels like a very exhausting place to come from. And it's not sustainable. And so when we are inspired when we allow ourselves to feel these things, I would say, you know, not only will the stuff that we feel like we should be doing may start to feel easier and more joyful. But we may not feel like we have to do them all in that way at all. Right?
Jessica 43:48
Yeah, that energy feels very unsupported. I have to do this. I have to do it all. And I would just ask, well, what's your intention? What is your intention?
Pualena 44:03
And I'd like to make a distinction because I, in the past have sort of been in this place of like, okay, I believe in attraction methodology. I'm just gonna let it happen. I'm just gonna let ‘em come. But the difference was, I didn't, there was nothing for people to do, to see and do and by. I was like, people will come, right? I have a website, they'll come. I have this, they'll show up. And so there is a little bit of like, for me personally, I really had to understand that attraction and action are partners. And action and inspiration are partners and so letting this sort of become a more holistic view was really the catalyst for me, I was like okay, inspired action. That phrase means something very different to me now. And the attraction then followed and the abundance then followed. So, just you know if anyone's out there being like, Well, okay, here we go. Come to me.
Jessica 45:11
Yeah, let me be very clear about that. You can manifest and you can mantra all day long. But until you do that work, you're gonna wonder why your vision isn't coming to life. So yes, I would give.
Pualena 45:27
Totally I have notebooks where I'm like, I have, I've $10,000 a month, I have $10,000 A month I've done you know, I was like, this stuff is supposed to work. So, let's do it. Like, how are you gonna have $10,000 a month when you have nothing for people to buy?
Jessica 45:44
Yeah, and not just that, how did it make you feel to write that? I mean, didn't make you feel more abundant. It made you feel more lack? I didn't spend, I'm gonna just gonna share this because there may be some people here who listen to the manifestation, which is beautiful. And also know that if you've ever heard of the book, The Secret by or the movie, after Rhonda wrote The Secret, she was depressed. And then she wrote the book called The Greatest Secret. And that's about honouring and accepting and loving all of you. So, just know that if you're in that manifestation period, and you're really trying to bring forth what you want, what if you're blocking what's really meant for you?
Pualena 46:35
Wow, I almost just want to, like, let people simmer on that. It's really, I mean, and I love that you've taken us into this space. Because again, I think the space of letting yourself feel and think and be quiet a little bit with yourself can be very scary. And so, you know, anybody listening to this, who's feeling both inspired and scared? Join the club, I am right there with you. And you've really, really touched on a lot of things that are inspiring me to sort of do things a bit differently and just honour, you know, where we're at and honour the way that we're feeling. Honour, that change can be okay. That what worked for us in the past may not work for us anymore, and that's okay. And you know, just moving with it gently and gracefully and with support. And you, oh my gosh, you support people and women in so many ways. And I would love for you to share and we shared a little bit earlier but if you wanted to recap that or add anything in, how can people learn more about what you do? How can they connect with you and find support with you?
Jessica 48:01
Yeah, absolutely. So, I wrote a book, my first book called Reclaim Your self and it's really the healing journey, it's the process, I share my story, I share the healing journey and then I give my engineering brain gets a three-step process to help you discover yourself. My engineering brain’s like okay great, love the story and make the process. So, I invite you it's Reclaim Your and then space Self by Jessica Lamarre, L A M A R R E on Amazon. So, you could pick that up. You can go to my website, download those free meditations, check out the courses available. It's truly an honour just to share this space with you, Pua. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful that we were able to honour those in Maui. And hopefully walking away people just feel a little bit more compassionate to themselves. They feel inspired to create what comes from their heart and to take action to bring forth what they're called to in the world.
Pualena 48:59
Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing today, for the work that you do in the world. We will link to all of your resources in the show notes. And I look forward to staying in touch with you because you are such a light and I'm just so grateful.
Jessica 49:13
Thank you.
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In this episode, Pua and Annie engage in an eye-opening discussion on personal finance and money mindset. Annie, once skeptical of the finance world, is now a thriving money coach helping clients overcome financial stress. She emphasizes the significance of intentionality and mindset in managing money and dispels the myth that financial coaching simply involves cutting expenses. Instead, she advocates for purposeful spending, saving, and investing.
The conversation delves into actionable steps for financial improvement, including crafting intentional money plans, reframing thoughts about money, and celebrating financial successes. Annie introduces her coaching approach based on confidentiality, vulnerability, and honesty, creating a safe space for discussing financial challenges. She also shares valuable resources that are helpful for all stages of financial development.
Annie also offers insights into pricing services and the importance of valuing expertise while catering to different pricing levels. The episode concludes with the idea of confidently embracing rejection as a stepping stone toward financial growth. Overall, the episode illuminates the balance between mindset and money, providing actionable strategies for cultivating healthier financial relationships and working toward financial freedom.
About Annie Jay Wizinowich
Annie is the Founder and Head Money Coach at Annie Jay Coaching. In 2016, she started money coaching—the coolest job on the planet. Annie’s mission is to help others realize that money doesn’t have to be an intimidating part of life. Money doesn't have to be an intimidating part of life. Despite nobody ever teaching us about debt, saving, and investing, it turns out it's possible to feel financially stable, even if you don't have a master's in Economics. Discovering this led Annie to her passion for helping others ditch money stress so they can live their best life. When she’s not with clients, you’ll most likely find her biking (only the downhills) around Hawaii, eating chocolate-covered almonds in a treehouse, or accidentally burning her husband's toast (every morning around 7:03 am).
Resources discussed in this episode:
Mint Money: mint.intuit.comYNAB: ynab.comEveryDollar: ramseysolutions.comBelieve IT by Jamie Kern Lima--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaContact Annie Jay Wizinowich | Annie Jay Coaching:
Website: anniejaycoaching.comInstagram: anniejaycoachingPO BOX: 7097 Kabwela Hawaii--
Transcript:
Annie 0:00
Money is a tool. It doesn't have to do with our self-worth. It doesn't have to do with our like personal value. It's a tool. It's a number. It's like data. It's amoral. There's no similar to a brick. You can use a brick to build a house or break someone's windows, right and like, rob their car. So money is a tool.
Pualena 0:28
Yay. We are live. From Jay, you are a rockstar. Thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to the Course Creators Academy podcast.
Annie 0:38
Does anyone ever say anything other than it's great to be here today? And I'm so excited. Every podcast–
Pualena 0:49
You know that's exactly what I would say. But now that you say that I'm like, determined to find something different.
Annie 0:53
Why didn't I come up with something more creative? But okay, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. There's what's expected to be said.
Pualena 1:02
I love it. By the end, you'll be like, I got it. Yeah. Let's let's pop this in. And we can we can edit it. Amazing. Well, thank you for being here I am. I always say this too. And so you know, we’re creatures of habit. I am so excited. I'm so I start every podcast like that. And I'm sure people are like, okay, it's like, written in your script. It's not, I'm always excited. And I'm always like, so stoked for the conversations that we're gonna have. So, today is no different. I'm thrilled and super excited for all the juicy stuff we're gonna dive into today.
Annie 1:38
Yes, let's do it. Money. Yeah, it's a sexy topic that is never talked about. So, this is great.
Pualena 1:46
Totally. I love it. And it's something that I think the more we talk about, the more sexy it becomes. And the less sort of like, icky and scary and like taboo, so let's do it. Amazing. Well, feel free to share a little bit about who you are, what your business is, and how you got to this place of getting to talk about money for your job.
Annie 2:10
Oh, yes. Money. It's so funny. I think, like a few years ago if someone would have told me that I would be in the finance world. I don't think I would have laughed, I think I would have like seriously been offended. Like, I'm not some nerd that's just gonna look at Excel sheets all day. Like, I'm not an accountant. I don't want to be a banker. Like, I'm not a boring person. Okay, there's much more to life than money and numbers, I would never do finance–
Pualena 2:36
No offence speakers.
Annie 2:38
And here I am. And I absolutely love personal finance, way more than I thought I would. But it didn't always start that way. So money was extremely stressful. Growing up, my parents would argue about money. I remember they're just like, no matter how much we saved, there was never any money for anything. And I like, it clicked one day when I realized that money is the thing holding us back from living, like the life that we dream of. And then out of high school, I realized, this isn't just my family struggling financially, like all these people that I thought were doing really well because they have nice houses, nice cars, all the fancy clothing. It turns out, they're extremely financially stressed because they have no plan. So, that's when I first got into personal finance. And it started as just like one on one coaching with people creating like personalized spending plans and improving their money mindset, talking to their spouse about money. And since then, it's kind of morphed into, like, all things personal finance and life-related. So, people are always saying like, why didn't we learn this in school? I wish they taught us this in college. Okay, let's get it on the college campuses. Let's go. Your employees keep asking for pay raises, like let's help them make the most of it. So, doing workshops for companies. So, all things personal finance, and just I love helping people create a world where money isn't the thing holding them back.
Pualena 4:09
Beautiful. I love this so much. And it's a topic near and dear to my heart. Because I've, as entrepreneurs, money means something a little different than it means to somebody who gets a paycheck regularly. So, like the idea of money mindset becomes that much more powerful and almost like vital to being able to run a business that provides for you in all the other ways of life. So, I'm really, really looking forward to this. And I would love to just dive in right away and just ask like, what are some sort of, not red flags, but like when you talk to people about money mindset or about the struggles that they've had with money, or even their goals? What are some things mister adages that you share with them right off the bat? And what are some things that you would advise people maybe to avoid when it comes to how we perceive or think about money?
Annie 5:11
Oh, yeah, there are so many patterns, it's kind of fascinating. So, people often think that when they meet with a money coach, like, we're gonna sit down, and I'm going to tell them never eat out, move to a smaller house, move to a cheaper part of town, like, cancel your phone line, I don't know. They think I'm just gonna come in and tell them like stop spending money. And that is not it at all. I'm naturally a spender. And there's a way that you can do it. There's a way that you can spend money, like be a free-spirited individual, enjoy spontaneous like adventures, and save for your future and be investing. So, one of my favourite things is to just help people spend intentionally. So, put you spend money on what's important to you, I'm gonna spend money on what's important to me. I won't judge you, you don't judge me, okay? You can go and spend–
Pualena 8:10
I love that.
Annie 8:11
–like hundreds of dollars on dogs sweaters, and I'm gonna go spend hundreds of dollars on like skydiving or something dumb. And there's no judgment in that because it lines up with like, our values, what's important to us. So, I think people always think like, I ran into one of my clients at Starbucks the other day, and she was like, expecting me to shun her for going to Starbucks, because people are always like, if you spend $8 a day at Starbucks, like if you took that money and invested it, you know, like stop eating, or stop drinking Starbucks, do better things with your money. And I was like, I'm at Starbucks. Also, like, $8 isn't gonna make you go bankrupt. Like, enjoy your Starbucks, enjoy your manicures. Enjoy the fancy things that you enjoy, and do it intentionally.
Pualena 6:59
That's beautiful. There's so much judgment around how we spend our money and our resources. And I always think like, why is there so much more? Why are we so much more critical about where we spend our money than where we spend our time? Even though we can make more money, we can't make more time, but that is so much more, like frivolously wasted. So, just a shower thoughts for today.
Annie 7:26
Yeah, it is so true. Right. And it's also kind of interesting, like I see incomes, like on both ends of the spectrum. I've worked with people that make like $2,000 a month and people that make $20,000 a month. And both of them are financially stressed like so. Oftentimes, it's not an income issue, it's more of like an intentionality issue. And where the hell is my money going issue? So yeah, it's interesting to see those patterns.
Pualena 7:59
Yeah, and what, I guess you've shared a little bit about this already. But let's dive into more of like, what the source of that stress is. And you did mention sort of intentionality and planning, and sort of what that might look like, as somebody who has experienced your coaching. Don't give us all your secrets. But I'd love to have, you know, just some quick tips for our audience.
Annie 8:23
Yes, certainly. So, one of the questions I always ask people is like, what do you want to leave this session with? And it's almost always like, clarity. Like, I want to know, how am I doing? What do I do next? They're really looking for like a step-by-step money plan. So, the first step with that is create a vision, like, what are we even working towards? What is your goal? What do you want your life to look like one year from now? Everything else factors, like that decision, is a factor for all the other decisions. So, our first step is always like, what do you want your life to look like from one year from now? Do you want to be travelling more, you want to be home with your kids more, you want to be quitting your job and leaving that toxic environment? After we have that the other places or the other steps can fall into place. So, after you have a vision, we work on a practical money step of saving $1,000, which it seems like so like basic, yet more than like 50% of us don't have it. Most people don't have that tiny little cushion in their checking or savings account. And that's just a little cushion between like us and reality. The $1,000 is obviously not like a full emergency fund, but it's a starter it'll get you there. It's a, yeah, it's a starter to get us on to the next steps. So, after you have a little starter emergency fund, and you know what you're even working towards what your goal is, then it's time to focus on the debt. And debt is a really interesting topic. There's like some financial gurus that are like, avoid debt like if you have any debt like live on rice and beans and don't travel and just like get rid of your debt. And it is totally a personal opinion. Personal Finance is personal. So, what we often do with clients is we'll make a debt payoff plan, which can often be extremely eye-opening to people, they've never seen all their debts in one place. They've never figured out their interest rates and like the 1000s of dollars, it's costing them an interest. After we lay it all out there, we run some different scenarios as to which debt makes sense to pay off first. Usually, it's something like the credit cards, but sometimes there's an emotional piece to it. So like, if someone has a personal loan that has their divorce fees on it, or like lawyer fees from a lawsuit, or someone lost a loved one, and it has like funeral expenses on it, those types of things. We take those emotional things into consideration, too. So, that's where I think like in the finance world, some people get caught up in like the numbers. But also like we're humans, it's behavioural things too, it's emotional. So there's more than one way to pay off debt. After we figure out debt payoff plan. That's where we like start to build up the emergency fund, and then we can start getting you invested. And then we start funding, what I call like our YOLO goals, like what are those crazy things in life that you want to be doing, you want to like, go spend two months in Europe, you want to pet a penguin in Antarctica, like let's start saving for those crazy goals. That seemed really unrealistic a year ago. So, after we get people to the place where they now have an emergency fund, they got a clear plan to pay off their debt, they are investing for their retirement, they're saving for their YOLO goals, then money became becomes even more fun and they can start living a life of generosity. So, they're pretty much-building wealth at this point. And now they get to just like, go to local coffee shops, or do like one latte and then just sneak the waitress like $100 tip and run out the door like that's when money gets so fun. People have like, no clue what they're missing out on when they're in those first few steps. Like you think getting a manicure is fun. Wait till you like surprise, someone who's struggling with a huge tip, or like an Uber driver. And it like is the highlight of their year, it's the highlight of your month. It's just one of the coolest experiences. That's a quick overview of like, a money journey for people.
Pualena 12:35
Oh my gosh, you're like my new favourite person. There's so much there. Like, first of all, thank you for laying this all out. Because there are parts of people's money journeys that feel very exciting. And, you know, one day I'll get there. And then there's the parts of like, the debt payoff that I love that you so beautifully identified that not all debt is equal. And not all sources of debt are equal, just because on paper, it makes more sense to pay off, like a high-interest credit card. But never once have I ever considered that there are strings attached to all of our debts. And some of those strings are much more emotionally charged. And every time we see that debt, we're reminded of that feeling. And it's, I don't think any debt really like feels like super awesome. But some probably could like take us into a spiral, you know, and that's so genius. I've never heard that before. And you don't really get that advice unless you work with a coach who is there to support your human experience. Right?
Annie 13:46
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think the emotional side of money like personal finance, like it has so little to do with numbers. It's kind of ridiculous. So, much of it is behavioural and emotional. And if it was as easy as just like spending less money than we make, like, then everyone would be wealthy. And like, obviously, there's more to it because so many of Americans are like struggling to pay rent right now. And like, a dozen of eggs is expensive. Yeah, people I think often overlook the emotional side of it. Yeah. Leading with that–
Pualena 14:20
It’s kind of like fitness. Right? Like, calories in, calories out. Makes sense to everybody. But there's a reason why the fitness industry is so massive, right?
Annie 14:30
Yeah, yeah, they have so many parallels. The fitness and finance worlds are so similar and it comes down to a lot of habits. Like, let's build some good health habits. And let's build some good like financer like wealth, habits, wealth and health habits. There you go.
Pualena 14:46
Yeah, I love it. I want to go back to a couple things that you said before, but while we're on the subject, what are some really solid, daily or regular habits that people can create around their money?
Annie 15:00
Yeah, having an intentional money plan. So, that typically looks like a spending plan. Some people call it a budget, I tend to avoid the word budget because it has like that like diet sort of vibe to it. It's like a negative connotation. But an intentional spending plan just gives you the freedom to spend money on the things that are important to you. So, I'll give you an example. Like my husband and I combined our finances and he likes surfing. He has like seven surfboards. And I'm like, why would you ever want another surfboard, but in our spending plan, we set aside money, like a couple $100 a month for Winton to spend whatever he wants to spend it on. A couple $100 for me to spend whatever I want to spend my money on. I'll go and like have dinner with friends or do little inner Island trips those and he will save his money up and then buy $1,000 surfboard. But the beautiful thing about it is that there's like no judgment, no shame, because that's his money. That's my money to spend guilt-free. So, practical money tip, spend money intentionally in the form of a budget or a spending plan. And while you do that, plan for some fun things, plan for the things that are important to your values, and then also plan for things to not go as planned, build in a buffer to whatever plan you're making, whether it's an investing plan, a debt payoff plan, a spending plan, build in a buffer, because we all know, life doesn't go as planned. Yeah, that's probably the number one. The number one habit and just being aware of your current money habits is a really good step in the right direction.
Pualena 16:36
Yeah. And what, do you have any like tools or tips on how people can start to create that awareness? Like, if we're paralleling this to fitness, right? It's like writing down what you eat or logging your workouts? Is there something similar that you recommend?
Annie 16:50
Yeah, I think it really, just like everything else, it's comes down to personal preference. But there are some really cool money apps, some are a little more nerdy, where they might tell you things like your net worth, which is always a good thing to know. You can hook up all your bank accounts, and it like puts all your money in a clearer picture. And it's like $10 to $20 per month. So, some good options for that would be Mint, Mint money, M I N T. And another one is called YNAB, that's an app, you can just download on your phone. And it stands for “You Need a Budget”. So YNAB, they make it fun. It's like entertaining, and very simple, user-friendly, meant for people that aren't really like, number nerds and don't want to spend all day in an Excel sheet. And then there's some free versions of apps. A third one is Every Dollar and you can just go in and like, you know, your paychecks coming. Where do you want that money to go? You're deciding ahead of time, your base expenses, and then also your goals like that trip to Europe or a new car you want to be buying. So, you can kind of map out the months ahead. So, free good apps Mint, Every Dollar and YNAB. Good resources.
Pualena 18:04
Beautiful. Yeah, that's awesome. We'll link to those in the show notes. for sure. I love that you have such an approachable approach around this. And you know, it's almost one of those things where like, people are like, I know, I'm in a bad spot, I'll call you when like things are a little bit less shameful. Like, you know, like, let's talk when I've gotten some of my debt paid off, or, you know, there's just a lot of shame around sharing where we're at. What would you say to someone like that, who is really just looking for some support, but might not be, they may not have awareness, they're like, I just swiped my credit card. I don't know what my bank account looks like. I don't know what my debt looks like, and I can't look at it.
Annie 18:50
Yeah, my advice would be show up, get some accountability, find an expert, and show up. So, I start like any new client, I start our coaching sessions with three spoken agreements. And one is just a note on confidentiality. And then the second note is a note on vulnerability, like money is a weird thing to talk about whether you have a history with like gambling, or you just got like a huge inheritance and it's suddenly gone. Whatever it is, like money's a weird thing to talk about. So, just being open to being vulnerable about it as cheesy as it sounds, but knowing that that coaching session is a safe space for it. And then the third note is a note on honesty and just like throwing it out there like hey if you're only making $200 a month, or if you make $20,000 a month, like let's just be honest and throw it out there. I just I just call it out right away and then they're like, Okay, I can admit like, yeah, I just talked to a woman who got a huge inheritance like millions and millions of dollars, which I do not see very often, like rarely do I meet with those people, but it's gone, like, millions of dollars gone. So, we talked about it, and we put together a plan like she can't be living her life the way she was four years ago when she had that money coming in every month. But those things are hard to admit. And we have to kind of like put our ego to the side and be like, Hey, I sincerely don't know what I'm doing. Like, I need help. I need someone to hold my hand. And that's what coaches are there for.
Pualena 20:31
Totally. And I think that's so beautiful that you brought that out, because, like, so I used to be in like, the fitness space. And people used to come and say, oh I'm not in good enough shape to start working with you yet. That's what we're here for, like, we love to help you get to a place where you feel confident. And so anyway, I and I, you know, when you shared that story like I opened my mouth out of judgment, and I was like, Oh, my God, it's gone. And yet, if I really think about my own sort of habits and history, being a business owner means sometimes you get huge influxes of cash. And then you have like, it's like feast or famine all the time until you figure out sort of what your, what that formula is for you and your business. And I this is like my third business. And so coming out of a couple of businesses in the past that didn't financially pan out. And we were always in that sort of like, do we take a chance on this thing, with the hope that it will solve our problems, or bring in money, or be the thing that fixes everything, right? And so there was a lot of like leaps of faith that required an investment that never really came back to us. So, there's like trauma around that, right? But on the other side, like, you come out of that space, and you finally you're getting money, and you're like, oh my gosh, now I can't invest in that video editor that I don't need, but I want so badly or you know, and so like the money comes in, and then it goes out. And it may not be in the form of millions of dollars, but it's still in the form of unpredictability and spending more than you're reliably bringing in. And I think that that sort of habit or tendency might be more common than we think. And so instead of me being like, Oh my God, this lady spent millions of dollars, I'm inclined to ask instead, you know what, let's talk about money mindset a little bit. And because I've also been in a place in the past, where I was, like, if I just write 10 times in a notebook, like, I'm going to make $10,000 this month, I'm gonna make $10,000 this month, then it's gonna happen. Like, I've run the gamut. So, let's talk about like what money mindset strategies do you like to share and sort of anything actionable that our audience can practice?
Annie 22:54
Oh, yeah, I love that. So, I wouldn't call myself like a money mindset expert. I have friends that are like, very into, like the manifestation and like the wealth-building path through that avenue. And I was recently reading a book and she talked about this interaction with a wealthy person, where she noticed that this wealthy person, like doesn't ever like, talk about like her abundance mindset. I don't know, I guess I'm saying this in this book. This woman was just like, she took the action to build the wealth. So, I feel like sometimes people get so caught up in the money mindset, like yes, I've journaled so many things that never happened. And it turns out, maybe my actions didn't quite line up with it. So, I'm not a money mindset expert, but some practical tips. One is to reflect on your history with money. So, reflect on your past experiences with money. What was money like growing up? For me, I grew up in a pretty poor family, like we were financially struggling, always like to just get food on the table. So, I therefore always assume that people will never be able to afford my prices because everyone's struggling financially in my eyes. So, just realizing what money was like growing up and figuring out what truths about money are no longer true. What childhood money truths are no longer true for you? And another one, I think, is just realizing that money is a tool. Like it doesn't have to do with our self-worth. It doesn't have to do with our like, personal value or, like it's a tool. It's a number. It's like data, you know? Yeah, it's amoral it. There's no similar to like a brick. You can use a brick to build a house or break someone's windows, right and like rob their car. So, money is a tool and then reframing your money thoughts. The way we do think about money definitely impacts our reality. I think it's one of the factors. So reframe your thoughts and don't forget to make your actions line up with it.
Pualena 25:06
Thank you for saying that.
Annie 25:11
Yeah, I also think celebrating the wins, people are so stuck in comparing, like, oh, like, they did reach a 10-figure month and I didn't. But hey, if you started from nowhere, and now you're making $2,000 a month with your side hustle, that's a huge win. Don't forget to celebrate it. So, we're huge on celebrating the little victories, and it just helps us keep going one step at a time.
Pualena 25:37
I love that. And I. So the part of that that really just made my heart sing. And again, like, I am not pooping on anybody's money manifestation parade. I personally felt like, and maybe this was my interpretation at the time. The exercises around money mindset, like maybe I was looking for a quick fix. But I just did the exercises without the action. And there was nobody sort of like checking me on that. And so it was like but I did the journaling, like, where's the money? And you know, it my business partner and I at the time we like, really, like sat down. And we're like, I remember there was one conversation in particular that now when I look back on it, I just can't stop laughing. So, we actually started a podcast, which was the first thing that we did for our business. And the podcast was like, we had no audience, we just like, we were coworkers at a gym. And our audience were like, the people in our classes that we were like, Hey, we're gonna start this podcast. And this was probably almost 10 years ago now. And all of the people that we followed, you know, on their podcasts, they would have like their sponsor clips. And like, we heard that you can make money on podcasting. So, we had this big plan to make millions with a podcast and to make it, right away. And so we were like, you know, we registered this business, we have a website, we have a podcast, but like, we're not making any money. So, we're like, well, what are we selling? Like there's nothing for sale. Okay, back to the drawing board. And it sounds silly. But like, I think when you're in that moment of like, it's all brand new. And it's really exciting. And we're not, you know, we didn't have a business plan. We had a podcast, we didn't think it would become a business, but it sort of like snowballed into one. And so there's all of these, like hopes and dreams. And I love hopes and dreams. I think there's so much value in that, especially, and maybe only when paired with action. It doesn't have to be even the right action, but some action is necessary for that energy to be returned to you. So, anyway, I love that you said that. And I just, it's a funny story now that it's in the past but back then we were like, what's going on?
Annie 28:05
That is, yeah, that is so real. I feel like I see it all the time. And I feel like that was me until like, last year like I was the queen of like journaling and like visualizing them like, Okay, here's my like, six-month visualization. Like, I can picture it, it's gonna happen. And then I was like, yeah, my actions. I look at my calendar, and I'm like, Oh, these two are not matching. Yeah, they're really good team, though. If you can get the action and the mindset, then I think, yeah. There's some serious momentum.
Pualena 28:34
Yeah. And it's like part of our journey, right? Like, there's the action feels especially special and necessary, once you've been in a place where like, you see what happens when there's no action.
Annie 28:46
Yeah, Yeah, for sure.
Pualena 28:48
Amazing. Well, you are seriously like, I could not love your approach more. And I feel like there's, there are a lot of people out there who probably also feel like they might be in a good place. And they are, you know, they're feeling good, their bills are covered. Maybe they don't have that much debt or any debt. But they have goals. And they might, you know, maybe they're saving for something, they've got a savings account. What would you share with somebody who may not be, have considered working with a money coach, but might be open to the idea of working with a money coach to, you know, create some extra tools or strategies or accountability? What opportunities are there for people who might just be looking for how they can maximize what they've already got going on?
Annie 29:38
I love this. I love that you asked that so much. So, I feel like we always focus on the people that are like financially stressed. But we don't always realize that there's like there's so much more to it than that. So, like most of my clients have debt, don't have savings and have no clue what they're doing. They're fighting with their spouse all the time. And then sometimes, and just recently I had someone fill out my form. And I looked at her results. And I was like, why? Why did she book a call? She's doing extremely well on paper. This woman has more savings than I do, which automatically makes me feel unqualified. She's making like triple what I make in a year. And but when it came to the question about money stress on like a scale of like one to five, how stressed we are about money, she put that she was pretty stressed, even though she had tons of savings, was completely debt free. She was just planning on taking like a year off and going to Thailand. Like she's living the dream life. And I hopped on a call is just like, how are you like stress? Like, I don't get it, what's missing for you? Like, it seems like you have everything. And her situation was she's got parents and family pressuring her to make these like huge investments. She's got her parents that are like, you need to be buying a house right now. Like you have a great income. You know, she's got bosses that are like, you need to take this promotion because you're doing so well. And she just hopped on the call. And she's like, do I have to do those like to be financially, like successful? And so for her, it was a conversation around money boundaries, and how that fits into like the rest of her life. So, we put together a plan for her to have the conversation, we like wrote out some scripts for her to have the conversation with her parents. It was like, Hey, I know you guys want me to buy a house and you expect me to buy a house this year. I'm going to be doing that in two years. Because right now, I'm not taking that promotion, I'm not buying that house. I'm going to Thailand, peace out. So, even when people have savings, even when they're debt free, even when they have great income, they can still appreciate and find value in just like validating where they're at. And their next steps.
Pualena 31:48
That is so awesome. And I agree like just because on paper, somebody might be very financially stable. There's a lot of stress around like it's, so I remember growing up like I was in a very blessed home, me and my sister both went to private schools, like my dad had a really, really stable high paying job. And yet all of our decisions were made as if we had zero money. Is that like, what is that about?
Annie 32:24
When you have those memories.
Pualena 32:26
That’s bizarre. Yeah, that's how I see money. Like, I think money is always gonna go away. I always want to, like, go the cheapest route. And it's not necessary. You know, and I still to this day, I'm sort of confused about like, why we grew up like that, and where that comes from? And how I can let that go. Because it just is it feels very limiting. And it's just unnecessary, I think.
Annie 32:51
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot to work through. Like, I mean, same for me. I grew up like–
Pualena 32:53
Time for a session.
Annie 32:57
Yeah, it's funny, I'm actually going through a training to become an accredited financial therapist and help people more so with like that side of it. It's a real thing. Yeah. I don't know where to start.
Pualena 33:13
Don't worry, neither do I. Yeah, it's and I think that there's a lot of like, you know, however your family handled money is, those are the habits that we tend to inherit. And we could be in a completely different situation, but still see money and treat money in the same way.
Annie 33:33
Yeah, I have a client. And both her parents worked in the stock market. They were like actively managing, like, invest like mutual funds and stuff. So, it's interesting to hear her story because even though she grew up, like in the stock market, like that was her life growing up. Now she's on the opposite end. And she's like, all she has are memories of her parents picking the stock market over her. Therefore, she's like, completely zoned it out. And she's like, I want nothing to do with investing. I want nothing to do with all those graphs and green red things. And, like, all I remember, are my parents picking that over me. So, even people that grew up in like the finance world have a lot of traumas around money to process. It's a big thing.
Pualena 34:18
Yeah, man, so I'm like so interested in just everything that we've talked about. I've had to hold myself back from like, continuing to ask a zillion questions so that we can get everything in in this interview. So, thank you for just sharing so openly. And the last time we chatted, we talked a little bit about a topic that you said was not necessarily part of your services, but we're willing to talk about it. And I would love to just sort of scratch the surface on this from the perspective of we are this complex human and our business, our life, our family, our finances, our happiness, our health like all of it is very connected. And something that personally, I get asked, I would say like, at least five times a week, if not every single day is about pricing for services and sort of what that process looks like, how do I price? How do I value my time, especially for coaches and service providers and people who may be trying to like assess their hourly value, which to me is bonkers. Like, how are we supposed to put our lifetime worth of expertise and experiences and skills into this like finite hourly rate? It's just it's mind-blowing to me. So, anyway, can we just dig very briefly into that? And just, yeah, what are your thoughts around pricing and all of that?
Annie 35:57
I love it. This should be an entirely different episode. Honestly. There's so much to talk about with pricing your services, especially, yeah, especially entrepreneurs. One practical tip that I started doing because I was struggling with pricing my services was to provide different pricing levels, like having a simpler course or service that's like entry-level, and then maybe you have your high ticket item. I feel like that's like a clear action step. No, like mindset jargon is involved. For those that are, like, looking for a really simple step. There you go. Different levels. I think another important thing is to realize that whatever price, like it doesn't matter what you charge, money is not the issue. At the end of the day, money is really just a number and people spend money on what they value. So, I would not spend $10,000 on a car, I even have an older car than that I spent like $5,000 on a car. But I easily spent $10,000 on a business coach, that was like a no-brainer to me, because that's something that I value. So, realize that people spend money on what they value. I have friends that won't spend $100 on a yoga membership, but they'll spend $100 on their dog in a heartbeat, right? Spend money on what you value, and people will do the same thing. And when they value your course, your services and products, it'll be a no-brainer for them. And then, I think my third tip with it is when you figure out like, I've changed my prices, so many times, I'm not like afraid to admit it. But whatever price structure you come up with, don't be afraid of people saying no, in fact, I would say the opposite of like, in not only don't be afraid of it, but like chase the no’s, like go out and collect your nose because that means that you're an action. And my business coach actually inspired me with one of his stories. He got 22 no’s in a row. So, he had this proposal for this like elite course that he had put together. It was no, no, no, no, all these like huge corporations saying no. The 23rd person said yes. And that was a $55,000 deal. So, like don't look at no as a rejection, it's not a personal stab, it's not like someone isn't interested in you or your service. It's just like they're not interested right now like moving on. Stay in action. Get out there collect your no’s. Know your value, charge it confidently. Collect your no’s people.
Pualena 38:39
I love that. Have you read the book believe it by Jamie Kern Lima?
Annie 38:44
No, no. I’ll add it to my list.
Pualena 38:48
You must. Yeah, she founded iT Cosmetics. And the book is her story about how she wanted to create this inclusive clean makeup line. And she got like, she was rejected so many times. The entire book is a basically a journal of her rejections until she was given a chance. And then like she just sold the company to I think L'Oreal earlier this year. I mean, she is like, she's one of the most inspirational speakers I've ever heard live as well. So, I got to hear her speak at a conference earlier this year too. Just the most wonderful human and her story basically, it's like if you're getting rejected, keep going. There's that's kind of loaded, right? Like we want to make sure that our product or our services are quality and all of that but if you stand behind what you do and what you have and what you have to offer, collect those no’s. That is the best advice.
Annie 39:51
Yeah. And to add to that, it's even interesting like in the money coaching world, people are like, how can you charge for that, like no one can afford your service? And people are paying thousands of dollars for money coaches because they know that it will get them to where they want to be like. They don't have $1,000 but they will literally like go into more debt. It'll be the last thing they put on their credit card. You know, like, if they want it, they'll make it happen. So yeah, go out there. It's fine if people reject you, keep moving on.
Pualena 40:22
Yeah, I saw something really interesting the other day. I think it was like in a Facebook group. Somebody asked, How do you? What was the question? It was something like, what do you… It was what do you charge per hour for your services? And the comments, there was like hundreds of comments, and people were just, you're being snarky, serious, like, you know, the whole gamut, right? Like, millet, like all the trolls in the world were on this post. But someone said something really interesting. They were like, I charge for the transformation that I provide. That makes total sense. And what value does your client put on that transformation? What does that mean to them? And I would say to like, if I again, I use fitness all the time as an example, because it's just easy for people to sort of wrap their minds around. If you want to lose five pounds, to someone paying $5, to a coach to help them lose five pounds might be enough to get them to take action. For other people, spending $500 on a coach to help them lose five pounds is what they need to actually do the work. I love that. So, it's sort of like, it's literally an energetic exchange based on what you need and what you value. So, I don't know if that helps anybody or just confuses everybody more.
Annie 41:47
I love that. Yeah, that's a really solid reminder. Yeah.
Pualena 41:51
Yeah. And like, We're all just trying to figure it out. So, Write down and put it out there and see what happens.
Annie 41:58
You can always change it. Yeah.
Pualena 42:04
Absolutely. That's amazing. I am just, I like, I feel like we are going to be lifelong friends. And we're going to do many more podcast episodes together. Because this is really just sparked a lot of ideas and hopefully brought a lot of hope and like awareness and light to this sometimes dark or taboo topic. And I imagine other people listening to this are as much of a superfan of you as I am. And so I'd love for you to share how they can get in touch with you and how they can connect with you.
Annie 42:40
Yeah, so my fax number is. I would love to keep in touch with everyone. My Instagram is anniejaycoaching. So, A N N I E, J A Y coaching. My website is anniejaycoaching.com. And snail mail is always welcome a PO box 7097 I've never shared that. Yeah, if someone writes me a letter, I always respond. So PO box 7097 Kabwela Hawaii.
Pualena 43:13
Seriously, can somebody please write Annie a letter and mail it? And take a picture of the letter? If anybody does that, like I'm gonna send you something awesome. I'm gonna send you a T-shirt or something.
Annie 43:26
I was. I was on like, it was like a sales training call this morning. And one of her pieces of advice was like as a follow-up, she literally advised people she was like, send a fax, it's you stand out like everyone sending emails, send a fax, and I was like, I don't know how to do that.
Pualena 43:41
Honestly, I don't think I would do that either.
Annie 43:48
Anyways, snail mail is still a thing so.
Pualena 43:52
That it's hilarious. You know, there's like some state offices here that still require you to fax them documents. Like, how does even somebody do that? Like, can you do that online? And the fact that you have to ask. That is insane. Anyway, I was alive when fax machines were a thing, by the way. Just in case people are like these kids.
Annie 44:16
Good stuff. Thank you, Pau, for having me. Wonderful, wonderful discussion. I love your podcast. I love what you're doing. And I'm coming to you because I'm going to be ready to make a course soon. So, you're on my mind a lot.
Pualena 44:31
Yay, let's do it. And I'm sure like, let's, whatever, whenever that happens, we can come back on here and share with the world everything about your course. And yeah, that's awesome. I was going to ask, you don't already have one. People we would be knocking down your door to get a course from you. So, I'm glad you're doing that.
Annie 44:50
I need you. Yeah, I need you because it's like it's my next big thing and I haven't really taken a lot of action. So yes, we need to talk outside of the podcast.
Pualena 45:01
Perfect. We'll just like record live all of our course brainstorms. Nah, just kidding.
Annie 45:04
I’m here for it.
Pualena 45:05
Amazing. Well, thank you again. This was so valuable, literally valuable and worth money. And I really appreciate your time. And yeah, we'll talk soon.
Annie 45:23
Thanks, Pua.
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Ever wonder how funnels work? Pua explains the concepts of funnels and their critical role in online course sales. She covers the four main steps of a funnel—launch strategy, target audience, nurturing, and conversion. The episode covers the importance of understanding your target audience and their pain points and how to create compelling lead magnets, landing pages, and email sequences to nurture your leads. Pua emphasizes the need for consistency in branding and mobile-friendliness to optimize conversions.
The discussion includes valuable tips on launch strategies, including open and closed cart launches, affiliate offers, and evergreen funnels. Pua also explores a membership or mastermind funnel model and its effectiveness for online course creators. Additionally, she highlights the significance of tracking and analyzing funnel performance to identify areas for improvement and ensure successful launches.
Throughout the episode, Pua emphasizes the value of experimentation and continuous adjustments in entrepreneurship. She advises utilizing resources efficiently, including time, money, and energy, to create appealing and conversion-friendly sales funnels. Following Pua's expert advice will give listeners valuable insights into building effective funnels to succeed in the online course space.
Resources discussed in this episode:
Google Business ProfileRoyalty-Free Images & Icons: unsplash.com & thenounproject.comRotary Club: rotary.orgBNI: bni.com--
Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:
Website: RBLMedia.coFacebook: RBL-MediaTwitter: @RBLMedia_coInstagram: @RBL.MediaTranscript:
Pualena 0:00
Keep your branding consistent, that's really the key to most digital spaces, that will psychologically help people to feel like they can trust you because your space is predictable. When we have too much chaos, that creates a lot of distrust.
Pualena 0:24
Hello, and welcome back to the Course Creators Academy podcast. I'm your host Pua. And this is a space where we get to inspire and empower you, the entrepreneur, the course creator, to thrive in the digital world. I am, as always super excited today, because I'm going to talk about a topic that's been coming up in many, many conversations. Most of them actually happen in our web design consultations. So this is when you know, however, people find me, whether it's a Google search, or in, you know, a community, a Facebook group, a referral, those are kind of my main lead sources, if anybody was curious about that. So, you know, they come to me, our potential clients come to us from all walks of life. And for many spaces, and they are in many places in their entrepreneurial journey. Some people are thinking about starting a business, and they're thinking about creating an online course. Others have launched their own business and they sort of DIY things, and they're ready to have somebody sort of “zhuzh it up”, a little bit. Maybe they used a template, or they just kind of watched some YouTube videos, and it was okay for when they started out. But they're ready to take that next step to the next level and have their digital space automated or the design a little bit more tightened up, maybe they're rebranding. Some people come to us and they've had wildly successful courses for many years, they have a huge following. And they have a big team and you know, their systems didn't grow as fast as they did. And so things are a little clunky. And we're taking a look at things and helping them to automate and make things a little bit smoother, and enhancing their user experience. So we get people from all over the place, all over the world, in all different points of their entrepreneurial journey. And yet, one of the most common questions I get asked from people in all different places in their sort of business success and their business trajectory is what kinds of funnels do they need? What is a funnel? How do I create funnels? Do you build funnels? And that word, I mean, we've done episodes on funnels in the past. And I just wanted to bring that to the forefront again, because I think, as we move through summer, so summer is kind of halfway or more, you know, we're halfway through summer, at least. And fall is typically when people sort of focus on launching, some people are looking very far ahead. And they begin to focus on there, you know, beginning of the year of 2024 launches. That's ideally where you want to be right now. Some people are also looking ahead at their fall launch, and they're saying, Oh, my gosh, I need some funnels in order to get people into my ecosystem so that I can launch this thing that I want to launch in September or October. And so it's just we've just been talking funnels quite a bit. So just want to share, I guess, some things that maybe I've learned or have become clear to me as a service provider over the last few months since we last had this funnel conversation and just share some reminders of you know, what is a funnel? Why is it so important? How can we optimize our funnels for some of the, you know, latest trends or things that are out there? What tools can we use to build funnels a little bit faster, that are a little bit more conversion driven? So that's what today's conversation is going to be about. And when I say conversation, I definitely mean monologue, because you got me today.
Pualena 4:23
So let's dive in. And I first want to just have a high-level conversation around, conversation, discussion, all of these are, they infer that this is a two-way engagement. So, I hope that you're over there responding to me as I ask these questions to myself, but you know, what, what exactly is a funnel and why is it crucial for your products or services to succeed in the online space? At this point, if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you probably have an A idea of what an online funnel is. But really like, I want you to look at it more of a strategic process than a tangible thing. Yes, there are digital pages, you can actually touch them. But we often think about a funnel as this, like, you know, landing page, squeeze page, opt-in page, thank you page, email sequence, like a funnel needs to morph to your needs and the needs of your audience in order to act as a connection process. So the strategy that we're utilizing here is a process to get people into your ecosystem that need what you have to offer, and connect them with you in a way that allows them to experience and discover the ways that you can help them. It's a communication vehicle. So the first part of the funnel is, you know, it, the steps will consist of the same things, right, lead generation, nurturing, and conversion, if we really boil it down into three components of a funnel, lead generation is the act of connecting with your ideal audience. This is what makes building funnels. So, I don't wanna say challenging, it's kind of fun, right? But there's, once you find the method to the madness, the fun begins, but you know that that stage where you're like, I know, my ideal audience, but how do I find them? How do I get people to connect with me? That's that whole lead generation space. And that's kind of the experimental space. We don't know exactly what will convert, we don't know exactly where we're going to find people. So we optimize our spaces to increase the chances that someone will find us, right? There's usually a conversation here around organic versus paid traffic, and how we can leverage some of the networks that are in existence, right, Facebook has all of this data on its users. So that's why utilizing Facebook ads is highly desired. But it's also very costly. Why? Because you have to test the ads, you have to spend money in the experimentation phase to figure out what works, what ad copy works, what images work, or videos, what ads style works, right? Are you asking them to click through to a website to an opt-in? Are you asking them to join a Facebook group, and what's the call to action? So there's a lot of variables with ads. So I highly recommend that if you have the budget for ads. If you have the budget for ads, please also consider you know, putting some money aside to hire an expert, they will save you time, they will save you. Yeah, time, time really is a big one and money. Facebook ads and and you know, traffic and ads, experts in general are a bit of an investment typically, especially if they're really good. So if you aren't in that space yet, do not throw money at adverts ads, ad spend. Without confidently being able to fund I would say two to four weeks of testing. And I've heard on average, like 10 to $50 a day is kind of what you're going to be looking at spending as like a test for testing your ads. If that feels like no big deal to you. Maybe ads are something you can look into. If that sounds like whoa, 10 to $50 a day, then revisit it, there's tons of organic options that you can utilize. One that I really, really want to strongly recommend to you is creating a Google business profile. I think this used to be called Google My Business. Is it still? I believe they recently changed names too, let me just let me just google this real fast. Google business profile. Okay, yeah, so it's free. And I highly, highly, highly recommend that you create a Google business profile. So, some best practices on this right? Fill out as much information as you can, and solicit from your current or past clients, at least five Google reviews on this profile, and continue to ask people to write to leave a review for you. This is going to really help people to find you if you know, I always tell people if you're thinking about Google versus Facebook ads, look at your business and look at your target audience and your service and what people might be doing in order to get to you so for web design services, it may make more sense for me to run Google ads. And it would mean would make for me to run Facebook ads. Why? Because Facebook ads, you are targeting a specific audience. And then you are putting the ad in front of people. And you're guessing that you're putting it in front of the right people. Google Ads require people to search for your service. So the gamble that you're making is whether you are utilizing the right keywords to help your ad show up, but in front of the right searches. But if you are a product-based business, you may be, you may have better success, running ads to Facebook, where you're just sort of showcasing your product in front of a targeted group of people. Not to say that you can't do either one, you know, vice versa, flip-flop, everything I just said. People are largely successful with that as well. It's just a matter of, again, your budget, your willingness to test, and your funnel, and the “conversionability”. I know that's not a word of your funnel, will largely give you the ROI or not on your ads.
Pualena 11:19
So let's talk about that. Back to my notes. All right. So three types, three steps of a funnel, lead generation, nurturing and conversion, okay, keep it as simple as that you've got this group of people, you've generated these leads, you have then are responsible for nurturing those leads before you convert them. Very, very important. If you spend a bunch of time collecting leads getting people to opt into your sequences, getting them into your funnels, and then you don't send anything to them until you're ready to sell something, these people will not convert, because they'll say, Oh, I only hear from her when she's selling something. Instead of Oh my gosh, I love this newsletter, she gives us so much value every month when she sends out her newsletter. So, I know this program is probably going to be great. I'm gonna check it out. Right? So there is an order to the madness. All right, so we've got those, what it consists of. Now let's look at sort of the puzzle pieces. So we're gonna lay all these pieces out on the table. This is our out-of-the-funnel puzzle box. And essentially, we're looking at lead magnets, landing pages, email sequences, sales pages, thank-you pages, opt-in pages, squeeze pages. Offer pages, did I say offer pages already? Right. So we have a lot of options, we have a lot of tools at our disposal. And when I say, you know, a thank you page versus a sales page versus a landing page versus an opt in page. And you're like you're speaking French, like I don't understand what the difference is between all of these. And if I have those. If you have a website builder of any sort, you can create these pages, anything that's called a page landing page sales page, thank-you page. It's a page. So just know that if you have a page builder, you can create funnels. If you have something to send emails, you can create funnels. Now the reason why funnels are called funnels, and they're sort of in this fixed system is ideally, this is all automated. So you do want something that can ideally, take information in through some sort of page. Let's say it's their email address, and drop that into an automated sequence where they're going to get a series of emails, and they're going to be put on a list. And they're going to be nurtured automatically. And once you're ready to convert, they're then given opportunities to opt into that sales experience, whatever that looks like for your webinars, straight to a sales page, whatever, whatever that is. But I want you to know that you have options, and a funnel is not a one size fits all thing. And also simple funnels work. So I've just listed off a bunch of things that you might want to use. Remember, keep it simple, keep it simple for you, because that will help you to actually create the funnel and get it out there and launch it. Right because we often get stuck in our own overwhelm. And that overwhelm is often not actually accurate. It's something we create in our minds. Oh my gosh, I was listening to this podcast and Pua told me that I have to have like a sales page and a thank you page and an opt-in sequence and an opt-in page and blah, blah, blah, blah. I hope you're still listening after I made that list, because my whole point is, you don't need to use all of those in every funnel. Most funnels have three steps, an opt-in, a thank-you page, and an email sequence. Okay, this can get so like, I'll walk you through sort of the how we utilize those three steps in order to create a more complex funnel. A lot of your funnels will be in the messaging. So lead generation, you got to get people to your page, that's, that's the lift. Once they're there, they're on your list. The next lift is to figure out how you'll properly nurture them. The final lift is how you'll convert them. Again, we're going in threes. This was all very sort of high, when I say high level, I mean, not that, like you have to be super advanced understand it, but just like, you're literally up above looking at this. Below is like components, right? We haven't gotten into the how yet. We just talked about the what, what is a sales funnel, and what are all the things that are included in funnels that you'll be creating.
Pualena 16:13
So, we'll now talk about the actual creation of your sales funnel. So taking a deep, nice deep breath. Because I can tend to be a little bit overwhelming, I don't mean to be, but I know that that's something that I do. Okay, so here we go, we're gonna break this down also into three steps. Step one, and you may already have this, you might be listening to this, because you just want to learn how to actually put the pieces together. But in case you don't it's worth mentioning, identify your launch strategy. So this is for your course. And we're gonna kind of work backwards from the launch and execution of your course experience. It's vitally important to have, an appropriate and a successful funnel, to know how you're going to get people into your course. And what that experience looks like. What I mean is, do you have a recorded course, where all of the content lives in this container, and you can sell it whenever you want to, people just buy it, they consume the content, there's no community, there's no real like, interaction with them and you. It's just sort of a one-way delivery of information. If that is your course experience, great, I feel like you have created the ultimate residual income machine, that is awesome. And you can literally launch this every second of every day of every month of every year. So, your funnel is going to look like an evergreen funnel that can just exist, and you can run ads to it. And you can send calls to action to it in your social media captions and your emails. So and that funnel can pretty much go without adjustment, unless you decide you want to make some changes, right? That is probably going to be the most straightforward trajectory of launching and funnel creation. It is not the most common though, most people find that when you create a little bit of urgency, even if your course could be delivered like that, having an open and closed cart launch strategy and creating the urgency around only being able to access that content for a fixed period of time brings people sort of a larger conversion rate in a shorter period of time. So you're getting a little bit of a cash injection, you are putting in a little bit of extra work, but it's for a very fixed time period. So for most people, that's it seems to be worth it. And again, it just depends on your goals, it depends on your business model. And what you want that experience to be. A lot of people who do that sort of like open closed cart, also have some sort of live component to their course or their membership. So maybe they are welcoming people into like a cohort where, you know, if I sign up between August 1st and August 7th, I'm joining this, you know, fourth cohort of this business course experience, and I have these people and I'm going to get to know them over the course of eight weeks. And I'm going to be guided by the person who created the course and there's a little bit of a community or a Zoom, you know, a regular Zoom calls or something like that. So that style tends to be more common in the core space. Now people will often do a combination of those two things. They will have a course that is evergreen, you can buy it whenever you want, or, you know sections of the larger course right, you can buy part one, you can buy part two, or you can buy the package. Or if you want to wait until August, I'm launching the mastermind or version of this where you're with a cohort, you have a guided Zoom sessions every week, you know, so that sort of like a higher level, higher value experience. And so that's totally an option as well. And if that's the case, you typically are running two separate funnels, one evergreen funnel to the course content, standalone, and then one sort of open closed cart funnel and the accompanying launch materials every so often whenever you launch that open closed cart experience. Okay. Something to note, not that I want to, you know, make any of this more complex, but I think it's worth mentioning. If that is your setup. If you have, you know, part one, you can purchase, part two you can purchase, you can purchase them together, you get a little bit of a deal. Or you can get this big mastermind experience twice a year, when you sell part one, you are also opting them into a long-term funnel. Okay, so if you're selling your course, asynchronously, and you do offer this next-level experience, anybody who purchases the asynchronous options must be entered into a funnel as a long-term upsell to the mastermind. Okay, I'm using language here just to sort of get my point across, it can be a mastermind, it can be a membership, it can be a, whatever you want to call it. But I hope that you understand that the standalone course has the same content that you're going to walk people through in the live experience but it will be guided. There will be a community there will be support, there will be other people on that journey with you versus an asynchronous watch when you have time. You are accountable for yourself kind of experience. Okay, it's a beautiful model. And we can do another episode completely separately of this of how to set that up and why it's great. But I just went from a funnel perspective, you're looking at a few different options when you have that ecosystem setup. If this feels really overwhelming to you, don't worry about it. If this sounds interesting to you, shoot me a message like I would love to jump on and like we can hash this out. We can do some brainstorming together to see what we can set up. And you know how we can make this ecosystem work really well for your clients. But yeah, okay. So, Whoa, we went way off track. So, step one, identify your launch strategy. Okay, right. So we talked about it? Is this sacred asynchronous? Is it evergreen? Do you have fixed closed an open cart periods? Do you have an affiliate offer? Do you have, essentially, people in your network who are out there selling this for you? And what does that look like? And do you need a separate funnel for your affiliates? Now the answer could be no. I could say hey, my friend, Sarah has this course and I think it's awesome. Here's the link, I think you'd be a great fit, check it out, they click the link, it's connected to me, a cookies dropped on their browser, they buy it a week later, I get credited for that. But they are now a part of that apart part of Sarah's ecosystem, right? So, they've opted in there and she's going to nurture them from there on she's going to, you know, give them everything that they need to succeed in that course. But it's an option, you could create a different funnel experience for anybody who has been referred to you by someone else. Okay. The reason why I might suggest that you do this is that's an that's a cold audience that knows nothing about you. So, you may want to give them a little bit more of a long-term like welcome sequence, giving them a little bit about you maybe opting them into a mini course or giving them some sort of like free download, so that they can get to know you your services, the solutions that you offer. And because you are a referral to them, then know like and trust factor is a little bit higher than if they were totally cold. So, you have that at your as an advantage, right? So anyway, okay, we have belaboured step one.
Pualena 24:52
Step two, define your target audience and understand their pain point. So, this is going to be crucial for targeting. Right? So, if we are targeting brand new entrepreneurs who are thinking about creating an online course, our messaging is going to be very different than if we're targeting established business owners who have online courses and maybe they're, they need to optimize their course experience, or you have a course but you're not selling it, how can we, these are terrible examples. But basically, understand where someone is at in their journey, whatever that solution is that you offer, and what their pain points are, are typically what people are searching for. So, if you're doing something like running ads, and you want to be able to target the search keywords, you need to very deeply understand who your target audience is, and what they see as their pain points, not what you see as their pain points. So, if you enter in fitness, my favourite example, and your target audience is people in their 30s to 50s, who work desk jobs who want to be healthier, but they don't know where to start. You will identify their challenge, maybe as an obese lifestyle, you know that they could be utilizing high-intensity intervals, all they need is 30 minutes a day, you know, maybe they don't need to be have any experience. But they need to be, you know, highly motivated, or whatever you decide what that is. The language that you use is typically not going to be the language that they use. So, if I'm sedentary in that target age group, I'm searching, you know, weight loss in my city, or beginners fitness classes, where to go, gym memberships, and pricing. So I'm interested enough to be searching for these things. So you're not trying to convince me to go to the gym. But I don't know what I don't know. I'm not searching 30-minute High-Intensity Interval trainings in Honolulu, that is definitely not what I'm looking for. So, it's worth talking to people in your ideal audience. And, you know, you can survey them, you can do Zoom calls, this is like sort of like market research or user interviews. Figure out what language they are using and utilize that, in your marketing/in your messaging. Something to consider also is creating a lead magnet around what these pain points are, offering (we've talked about this before) a mini win, a small little solution, a little result in the direction that they want to go so that they want more, you're giving them a little bit of a dopamine hit, right? We've talked about this before, if you're going to do a five-day sugar detox, I'm gonna tell you what, most Americans if they detox from sugar for five days, they're gonna lose some weight. So you're giving them a little win. Or they can say, oh my gosh, if you do this for me in five days, I'm in for whatever you're selling. Okay? So, that will get you their email address, and get you and get them into your ecosystem, into your funnel. Right?
Pualena 28:32
So step three, how are you going to nurture them? Typically, this is a series of well-crafted emails that provide value, that build trust, and position yourself as an authority. You are the expert, and you have to prove this to them. You can prove it by telling them that you're an expert, but that typically doesn't work. You want to show them. Show them testimonials from your clients, video testimonials are so good. Give them that little quick win, share with them some strategies for free, some value for free, that they can implement and say, Okay, this chick knows what she's doing. I'm in, tell me more. Right? This is crucial. Because once your audience is in your ecosystem, you want to continue to message them to keep them engaged and interested in what you do. Once they sort of forget about you, or this happens a lot like if I go to a clothing website that I'm interested in, and I dropped my email so that I can get the 10% off. And then I get the 10% off but I don't use it right away. If they don't message me again and remind me that I have it, I'm probably never going to use it. But it's not that I think they're a bad company or bad people or that I decide that I hate the products. It's just that life happens and it's no longer top of mind five minutes after I put my email in, okay, so I usually recommend one email to go out immediately. So, day zero, minute zero. And then your three-step welcome sequence is going to be daily for three days. Then the fourth email goes out between five and seven days later. And then you can sort of OPT them into your regular cadence. Most people do weekly emails, some people do, you know, a few times a week, I would say, at minimum, you want to have a monthly newsletter, or an email go out with highlights lots of value, and just ways for people to learn who you are, and why they can trust you to solve whatever challenges they're going through.
Pualena 30:41
Final step of this, step four of your sales funnel is the conversion step. So and this looks so drastically different for every business, that I almost hesitate going into this too deeply here. But basically, you know, we hear a lot in from like, you know, sales gurus in the entrepreneurial space of like, what is the irresistible offer? What is your irresistible offer? What are you, do you have on the table that they absolutely cannot refuse? And in order to set them up for this, we need to, I mean, there are so many ways to do this, right, you could do webinars, you could do, you know, like dangling the carrot in front of them, where you have like a few emails where you're like, I'm launching something so awesome. I've launched it to a fixed number of people, these are the results that they got, I can't wait to share more about it with you, keep an eye on your emails, I'll be, you know, announcing this in three days, or, you know, creating some sort of build-up around what that thing is getting people super excited, you could pre-sell, you could have them opt into an announcement live, Instagram Live, Facebook Live, YouTube Live. There are so so so many ways to do this. And it really depends on step one, which is what is your launch strategy. So, we can save that conversation for another podcast episode. But just know that those are going to be the four steps that you want to kind of hone in on as you're thinking about creating your sales funnel. So step one, identify your launch strategy. Step two, define your target audience and understand their pain points, step three, nurturing your leads. And step four, conversion. Okay? All right.
Pualena 32:37
So, we are now going to just sort of touch the surface of designing your sales funnel. We want to make sure that it is appealing and effective both visually and psychologically. Now, I would say as a designer, if you are not a designer, I’ll frame it this way, you can absolutely create a beautiful, conversion-friendly sales funnel by following one bit of advice. Keep your branding consistent. That's really the key to like most digital spaces, consistent branding, don't change fonts, don't change colors of buttons. Keep all of your corners, either, you know, if you're going to do like 90-degree angles in your corners, you're going to round the edges, do it across the entire space. Do everything consistently, that will psychologically help people to feel like they can trust you because your space is predictable. When we have too much chaos, that creates a lot of distrust and it's very subconscious. Nobody can, most people won't be able to identify that. But it will look like you just don't have your you know what together. Okay, once you have your sort of aesthetic decided on, decide on the components of the funnel that you need in order to be successful. You probably need an opt-in, you probably need a thank you something, either a thank you page, thank you email, ideally, both. You could get away without having a thank you page as long as you have that follow-up email sequence, and like a solid email sequence with a call to action to the thing that you're selling, near the end of the sequence. This is a lot. Again, I hope if you are taking notes. Yeah, I'm going to hope that the show notes can help to sort of get some structure around this conversation. But I say this because I'm sort of like jumping around. But if we're talking about your email sequence from your funnel, you don't have to reveal what you're selling at the beginning of the email sequence. In fact, it's better if you don't. So about four minutes ago I talked about sort of dangling that carrot like I'm going to be a announcing this in a few days, you know, so you can do things like that throughout your funnels, email sequence, and reveal the actual thing that you're selling closer to the end. So, when I'm thinking about it, if you go back and listen to the podcast episode about Brendon Burchard’s presentation at the Kajabi Hero Live conference, I walk you through, I think it's like a 10-step email sequence, or 10 email sequence for launching a product or a service, or a course. And that's what I recommend. And that's sort of the sequence that I have in mind when we're talking about funnels specifically for launching a course, this is different from just a general opt-in email sequence. I mean, it can be and it should be. Okay, so your landing pages and sales pages should be visually appealing, easy to navigate, and optimize for conversions. And you're like, Oh, that's a loaded sentence like, can you please give me some tips on how I can do all of those things. So here's where like, it gets a little bit hard to teach you how to do this in a one-way, podcast episode. It equally important are, your copy your images, your branding, and your calls to action. Now that, again, is so unique to each product, to each service, to each course. That again, I can't really give you any sort of unique, specific guidance in this podcast episode. But I would say spend resources. This doesn't have to be money, it can be time. But I would say, time, energy or money are like the three resources that I have in mind. It can be a combination of those, whatever you have at your disposal, spend resources on these things. Your copy, so this is your page copy, your landing page, your sales page, your opt-in page, thank-you page, your email sequences, spend resources on your copy, spend resources on your images and your graphics. This could be used spending two hours going through unsplash.com and the nounproject.com to find great photos and icons that are free, royalty-free images. But spend time on this, what we don't want to do is have janky blurry images that have nothing to do with your target audience that are just sort of, you know, you just needed an image here. And so you put that there you have, you know, a screenshot or an old smartphone photo. Crisp, clean images can make or break a page. So spend time or resources, on your images. Understand your audience enough to know what those calls to action for them need to be. Is it booking a call? Is that part of your flow to get people opted in? Is it sending them straight to a sales page? Is it having them watch a webinar? Is it directing them to some sort of resource or free download? Make sure you understand what that call to action needs to be in order for people to successfully opt into your course. Okay, the other thing about your anything digital, but since we're talking about funnels, it really like it is crucial for it to be mobile-friendly. It must work well on mobile. Most people are on their phones, and most of the time your calls to action. So, that's gonna come in emails or social media captions, or links in bio, all of those will be accessed by somebody's phone, typically. So, if your pages don't look good on mobile, or if they're sections that aren't, like overlapping, or, you know, if you have a funky mobile experience, don't think that the desktop is gonna save you. It must be optimized for mobile. Okay. So if you were working with some a service provider or web designer, make sure that that is like a line item in something that they are delivering to you. And if it's not ask them about it and make sure that that is part of the final delivery. If you have questions about this section, the design again, really difficult to talk about specifically in a podcast but send me your questions and I'm happy to clarify or offer some additional episodes around that.
Pualena 39:33
And finally, let's just like very briefly talk about best practices for launching your online course in your sales funnel. Timing is crucial. So, these need to be planned well in advance. Again, if you are doing an upcoming launch, it is right now the end of July/early August 2023, ideally, right now you're planning your January 2024 launch, not your September 2023 launch. It is too late for that, if we're really, if I'm really being honest with you. It can be done, people do it all the time, you could have a phenomenal September launch if you plan it three weeks in advance, you will have an even better launch in January if you plan it four months in advance. Just trust me on that. Utilize your networks, leverage your email list, your social media platforms, your collaborations with your colleagues or fellow entrepreneurs in different communities or networks. You know, professional networks can be really, really, really great when you're launching. Things like you know, Rotary Clubs, or BNI. Or if you have like a local group that you're a part of, share your lunch with them. And you know, ask Who do you know that might be looking for a six-week fitness jumpstart before the new year, before the holidays? There's a lot, so there, I'm treading lightly around the word discount, because people tend to either like or dislike this option. But I'll throw it out there. Early Bird discounts work really well. So, consider early bird discounts. What's really good also is bonuses. So, if you don't want to discount the service, or the course or the experience, add bonuses to it. Give them an extra call, give them three VIP calls, give them one on one coaching session. You know, if you have affiliates, ask your affiliates if they want to offer something, you know, private guest speaker at the first call, you know, you can get creative with it. But bonuses are really really great to incentivize early signups. People will wait to the very, very last minute to do anything ever. It's like one of the most annoying parts of being a human, I don't know, we like to be last minute. So, if you want to have a little bit of financial cushion to carry you through your launch, offer Earlybird incentives so that you get a little bit of a cash influx at the beginning of your launch. Okay, most importantly, and this is like, most people say, Yeah, of course, I'm going to do this. Why would I not like it's such a crucial step, I totally get it. Most people don't do it. Track and analyze your funnel's performance to identify areas for improvement. Do a launch debrief at the end, even if it's, okay, so if you're doing an evergreen funnel, and there is no end, periodically check your analytics and see, you know, where are people dropping off? Yeah, a bunch of people opt into the email list, they open the first email, and then they don't open the emails again. And then they unsubscribe, like what's going on? Or they got to the opt-in page. And then they even got to the webinar or they signed up for the webinar. But I only had this many people show up, or of the people that showed up only this many people watching the next step. Feedback and data are like feedback is data. So if someone's like, if you say like, Oh, could I ask, you know, why didn't you stay to the end of the webinar? Or why didn't you buy and someone's like, well, the webinar was super boring and I wasn't interested, that can be so hurtful. And we can just, you know, that can keep us up at night. But if we see feedback as data, we can say, okay, the webinar was boring. How? How can I make it more interesting? What can I improve, to keep/ to retain people in my funnel a little bit longer, or at a higher level, so that they convert at the end? Without that, you're just living in your own ignorance, and you have the data, so you must use it. It is so powerful, and sometimes the smallest adjustment can take a failed launch and, you know, flip it one-eighty your next launch, you can bring in you know, 50 new students. So, it's really it is a very cumbersome and time-consuming process sometimes. But do your launch debrief, understand your numbers, understand your data, and make those changes and adjustments for the next time that you launch. Or, you know, every few months, adjust your funnel to optimize it just a little bit more maybe, you know, check out the mobile experience, maybe add a different free opt-in or a download and see how that performs. Entrepreneurship is experimentation. That's it. So, if we just see every day as a way to adjust our experiment and see what works, what's working today, what's not working tomorrow, what is working tomorrow, you know, it's as if we can pivot and adjust constantly, we will come out on top. If we keep things at status quo, just kind of sit and hope and pray that the next one works even though this one didn't work. It's, you know, there, it can work sometimes, but you're just gonna get lucky. We want to have evidence, we want to make good decisions. We want to make educated guesses, right? Your resources are valuable, your time is valuable, your money's valuable, your energy is valuable. So, we want to make sure that we're utilizing all of those things, and really optimizing them to be most efficient. Why? Because you're in this business, because you have a passion for what you do. And you also want a life, right? We are entrepreneurs because we want freedom, we want to be able to make our own schedule, go you know, do things on our own time. And to provide a service and in an ecosystem to help people that doesn't exist. We are innovators. So for you to be able to do that and optimize it to its potential while you also can live a high-quality life, it's imperative that you make improvements when they need to be made. Okay. Okay, I'm done. If you have questions, I am super excited to hear from you. Go to RBLmedia.co, you can fill out the contact form there, RBL.media on Instagram, shoot me a message. I am happy to chat and I will talk to you soon.
- Visa fler
