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What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad?
Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation.
Episode Highlights
“Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.”Main Themes
Pentecostalism’s history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with GodLinked Media References
About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel LooperShow Notes
Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism’s roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic’ has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.’” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan’s in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”? Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn’t this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I’m given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what’s scary about the moment that we’re in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump’s Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don’t actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary’s controversial role in NAR’s intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What’s scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There’s a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality.About Leah Payne
Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today.
About Caleb Maskell
Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine.
Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do.
After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University.
In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church.
Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Historian and journalist Molly Worthen explores the mysterious and potent force of charisma, and its power to shape American identity, culture, politics, and religion. She explains how storytelling, transcendence, and authority are used by America’s most charismatic leaders.
Drawing on her new book, Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump, Worthen shares how charismatic authority reveals deep human desires for meaning, agency, and transcendence. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, spiritual hunger, religious disaffiliation, and the evolving nature of belief and belonging in modern society.
Worthen unpacks the often-overlooked distinction between charisma and charm or celebrity, examining the role of storytelling in cultivating authority and devotion.
She also shares how researching this subject intersected with her own spiritual journey, culminating in her recent conversion to Christianity.
Key Moments
Molly Worthen discusses her latest book, Spellbound. Charisma: a relational, story-driven phenomenon, not mere charm or celebrity Our religious impulse persists despite declining traditional affiliation Worthen’s personal spiritual journey: from intellectual agnosticism to Christian faith while writing the book Donald Trump’s narrative charisma and religious-political appeal examined in depth Human longing for transcendence and meaning as the root of charismatic powerEpisode Highlights
“Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” “The heart of charisma is the leader’s ability to tell a story … that does a better job at explaining the chaos and the suffering.” “We want the comfort of knowing that some force larger than us is ultimately in charge—and yet we also seek agency.” “I came to realize I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger—and that I myself had that hunger too.” “Authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty.” “We kid ourselves if we think more sources solve the mystery of charisma—reality is an asymptote we never perfectly reach.”About Molly Worthen
Molly Worthen is associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in North American religion, politics, global Christianity, and the history of ideas. She is a contributing writer for the New York Times and author of several books, including Apostles of Reason and The Man on Whom Nothing Was Lost. Her most recent book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump.
Show Notes
Authority—who should we listen to? Internal battles within American evangelicalism The definition of charisma and its distinction from charm, celebrity, and power Charisma: “ the allure in a leader that gives him or her the power to move a crowd that is premised on a relationship. … You need two parties at least. It’s not solely a quality of fluorescence that shines out from the individual without other people to interact with it.” The leader’s ability to tell a story that explains the audience’s experience of life Paradoxical quality: we want our decision to make a difference in our fate, but we also want some being or force larger than us to make it all okay. “ It’s not just about looking at the one who is the special anointed one, but it’s that somehow through that person, I too, or we too, see ourselves more clearly.” Special revelation and stories of experiencing God in particular ways “Capturing the ineffable” Role of charismatic leaders in American religious and political life Impact of Joseph Smith, Anne Hutchinson, JFK, and Adlai Stevenson Why institutional religion no longer captures spiritual impulse for many Americans Storytelling as the essence of charismatic authority Evolution of American individualism and the cult of authenticity How mass media, trauma, and cultural crises shape charismatic influence Coming to terms with the limits of your “source base”—”Reality is an asymptote.” “It’s that sort of transcendent storytelling ability that is the heart of charisma.” Mormonism and the charisma of Joseph Smith Leaders like JFK and Adlai Stevenson offered different models of modern charisma “So much of my book is really about the fortunes of established institutions in American culture because charismatic figures always define themselves vis-à-vis institutions.” Routinizing charisma (cf. Max Weber) “The gap or the consistency between what our subjects are, are thinking and intending consciously and what they actually do.” Intuition versus analysis—steeping in cultural milieu and operating out of personal life experiences The Puritan heretic Anne Hutchinson “Very few humans are out-and-out cynics.” Charismatic figures aren’t always attractive or eloquent—they resonate through meaning-making. “ The religious impulse is finding a place to land other than organized religion.” Protestant roots of American consciousness tied to authority and self-discovery Humanist psychology and positive thinking “The age of the gurus” Charisma and Contemporary Politics: Donald Trump Trump’s story of victimhood, self-made success, and defiance of institutions as a charismatic myth Trump’s stream-of-consciousness style perceived as authenticity by many followers. “For example, his rambling stream-of-consciousness speaking style that actually is a core to his appeal, I think, for many Trump supporters because it comes across as a kind of authenticity—as a willingness to tell it how it is and speak off the top of his head. And authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty in terms of correspondence to, you know, empirically verifiable facts.” The alignment between his narrative and the prosperity gospel ”While Donald Trump is no one's idea of an orthodox Christian, he grew up in Norman Vincent Peale's church in New York City, Marble Collegiate Church, hearing the prosperity gospel, the gospel of positive thinking.” ”I think Trump has a, has a really acute spiritual instinct for. That picture of reality one in which we can really reshape reality with our minds.” Early support from independent charismatic church networks shaped his rise. Importance of positive thinking theology (e.g., Norman Vincent Peale) in his spiritual instincts. “I suppose I was about two-thirds of the way through the rough draft of this book when I was rudely interrupted by the Holy Spirit. I have always studied Christianity as a very sympathetic and, frankly, envious outsider and never was entirely happy with my agnostic fence sitting, but also wasn't actively looking to resolve my metaphysical questions.” “ I’ve always had this conviction that humans are fundamentally religious creatures and they have this impulse to connect to a transcendent source of meaning to worship.” “I came to realize that I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger and how humans cope with it. But that I myself had had that hunger as well—that I’m not immune to that feature of the human dilemma.” “We want to be pulled into something transcendent, where we are more fully ourselves.” Praying for a mystical experience—at least being “strangely warmed” ”God had already done something to my desires—I was walking in the direction of Jesus already.” “ I always see every kind of historical problem as somehow having to do with contesting visions of human nature.” “There’s this silly misconception that Christianity is intellectually stultifying—that to become an orthodox, traditional Christian is to shut off all kinds of questions and accept a black-and-white way of thinking. And that has not been my experience.” Research project on miracles “ Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” Conversion was driven by rigorous academic inquiry into the resurrection and New Testament Experience echoed themes in the book: story, vulnerability, and being seen Her analysis: “God had already done something to my desires before the arguments convinced me.” Post-conversion excitement about theological study, healing, and miraclesProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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Cancer is among the most common and feared diseases in the modern world. Dr. Selwyn Vickers—president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center—joins host Mark Labberton to discuss how precision oncology, data, and faith are transforming cancer treatment.
A distinguished cancer surgeon and pancreatic cancer researcher, Vickers explains how groundbreaking advances in genomics, immunotherapy, and AI are transforming once-lethal diagnoses into survivable and even chronic conditions. Together, they explore not only the cutting-edge science of cancer care but also the spiritual, emotional, and social dimensions that affect every patient and caregiver.
Resonating with themes of suffering, hope, and resurrection, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and courage for all who are affected by cancer—from those newly diagnosed, to medical professionals, to grieving families and curious listeners.
Episode Highlights
“We’re getting to a point where we will, in the next five to seven years, have a much better chance to cure people—and to make pancreatic cancer a chronic illness.” “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” “Cancer is a disease that creates an existential threat in ways no other illness does.” “If a tumour forms, it means your body’s immune system has made a social contract with the cancer.” “We changed the diagnosis in 10–12 percent of the patients who come to us—sometimes from cancer to no cancer.” “Cancer care is a team sport. And our patients often inspire us more than we help them.”Helpful Links & Resources
Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center BioNTech – creators of mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer CAR T-Cell Therapy Overview (Cancer.gov) Tim Keller on cancer and hope Emma Thompson’s Wit (HBO) BRCA1 and BRCA2 Genes and Cancer Risk MSK-IMPACT: Next-Gen Tumor ProfilingAbout Selwyn Vickers
Selwyn M. Vickers, MD, FACS, is the president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (MSK) and the incumbent of the Douglas A. Warner III Chair. He assumed the role on September 19, 2022.
Vickers is an internationally recognized pancreatic cancer surgeon, pancreatic cancer researcher, and pioneer in health disparities research. He is a member of the National Academy of Medicine and the Johns Hopkins Society of Scholars. He has served on the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine Board of Trustees and the Johns Hopkins University Board of Trustees. Additionally, he has served as president of the Society for Surgery of the Alimentary Tract and the Southern Surgical Association. Vickers is the immediate past president of the American Surgical Association. He also continues to see patients.
In 1994, he joined the faculty of the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) as an assistant professor in the Department of Surgery, where he was later appointed to professor and the John H. Blue Chair of General Surgery. In 2006, Vickers left UAB to become the Jay Phillips Professor and Chair of the Department of Surgery at the University of Minnesota Medical School.
Born in Demopolis, Alabama, Vickers grew up in Tuscaloosa and Huntsville. He earned baccalaureate and medical degrees and completed his surgical training (including a chief residency and surgical oncology fellowship) at the Johns Hopkins University. Vickers completed two postgraduate research fellowships with the National Institutes of Health and international surgical training at John Radcliffe Hospital of Oxford University, England.
Vickers and his wife, Janice, who is also from Alabama, have been married since 1988. They have four children.
Show Notes
The ongoing threat and fear of cancer How Selwyn Vickers got into medicine Pancreatic cancer: Vickers’s expertise “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” Sequencing the human genome “Is there a drug that might target the mutation that ended up creating your cancer?” Cancer as both a medical and existential diagnosis The revolution of precision oncology through human genome sequencing ”It takes a billion cells to have a one centimetre tumor.” Immunotherapy: checkpoint inhibition, CAR T-cell therapy, and vaccines Cellular therapy: ”Taking a set of their normal cells and re-engineering them to actually go back and target and attack their tumors. … We’ve seen patients who had initially a 30 percent chance of survival converted to an 80 percent chance of survival.” “We know in many tumours there’s something called minimal residual disease.” “Immunizing yourself against cancer is a significant future opportunity.” Managing the power of data with AI and computational oncology Cancer-care data explosion: the role of computational oncologists Cancer vaccines: breakthrough mRNA treatment for pancreatic cancer ”Didn’t ultimately win. We had to suffer through her losing her life, but was so appreciative that she got much more than the six months she was promised.” Tumour misdiagnoses and the importance of specialized expertise Pancreatic cancer challenges: immune cloaking and late-stage detection In the past, one in four would die from the operation for removing pancreatic cancer Long-term survival Future of cancer detection: AI-based medical record analysis and blood biopsies More accurate blood tests to confirm conditions Using AI to select those who are high-risk for cancer Pastor Tim Keller died of pancreatic cancer. In the past, “your doctor … helped you learn how to die.” ”[God’s] given man the privilege to discover those things that have been hidden. And over time we've gradually uncovered huge opportunities to impact people’s lives.” The state of breast cancer research and treatment “If you get the diagnosis of breast cancer, you have a 90 percent chance to survive and beat it over a five-year period of time.” ”In general, we’re in a great state of understanding how to treat breast cancer, how to detect it early, and then have selective and targeted mechanisms to prevent it from coming back.” Prostate cancer research and treatment Theranostics: using a specific antibody to target cancer cells specifically Pediatric cancer: ”We actually treat more children for cancer than any hospital in America now, but in general, the survival for pediatric cancers is greater than 80 percent.” Emotional, psychological, and spiritual toll of cancer: importance of psycho-oncology How Sloan Kettering developed psycho-oncology to help cancer patients with mental and spiritual health Personal story: how a cafeteria worker empowers patients through food choices “We give back to them the right to choose what they get to have on their tray.” Cancer treatment is a team sport. Wit (film, Broadway play)—actress Emma Thompson plays a cancer patient studying the work of John Donne on death Socioeconomic and racial disparities in cancer care outcomes The healing role of community, support teams, and compassionate listening The importance of listening to cancer patients who are preparing to die The spiritual courage of patients and the transformative power of faith “Our patients often help us. We see the grace with which they often handle that journey.” The inspiration behind becoming a doctor: family legacy and human impact Terminal care: the sacred responsibility of walking with patients to the end Cancer research and treatment as a Christian vocation and expression of humanityProduction Credits
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“Leadership is defined by listening.”
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication. Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you’re leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don’t want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let’s not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let’s listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it’s almost always around the leader’s failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they’re leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. … The longer they don’t listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact.
Episode Highlights
"Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership."Helpful Links & Resources
The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to GreatAbout Nathan Hatch
Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America’s leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture.
Show Notes
Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh’s visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren’t self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch’s book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people’s potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative peopleProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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Two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Nicholas Kristof (opinion columnist, the New York Times) reflects on his career of reporting from the front lines of injustice and human suffering, discussing hope, human resilience, and the urgency of responding to global injustice.
An advocate for empathy-driven journalism that holds power accountable and communicates the stories of the most vulnerable, Kristof joins Mark Labberton in this episode to discuss his life’s work of reporting from the world’s most troubled regions—from Gaza to Congo, from rural Oregon to global centres of power. Known for his unsparing storytelling and deep empathy, Kristof shares the family roots and personal convictions that have shaped his lifelong pursuit of justice and hope.
They also explore how despair and progress coexist, the role of faith and empathy in healing, and how local acts of courage can ripple globally. Grounded in gritty realism, but inspired by everyday heroes, Kristof invites us to resist numbness and embrace a hope that fights to make a difference.
Stories from Gaza, Congo, Pakistan, and beyond Balancing heartbreak and hope in humanitarian reporting Why empathy must be cultivated and practiced The global impact of Christian activism and its complexitiesEpisode Highlights
“Side by side with the worst of humanity, you find the very best.”
“We focus so much on all that is going wrong, that we leave people feeling numb and that it’s hopeless … but people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless.”
“Empathy is something that, like a muscle, can be nurtured.”
“The worst kinds of evil and the greatest acts of courage are often just one decision apart.”
“We are an amazing species—if we just get our act together.”
“You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there.”
About Nicholas Kristof
Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, and is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, **where he was previously bureau chief in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Tokyo.
Born, raised, and still working from his rural Oregon home, Yamhill, he is a graduate of Harvard and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford.
He is the co-author, with his wife Sheryl WuDunn, of five previous books: Tightrope, A Path Appears, Half the Sky, Thunder from the East, and China Wakes. In 2024, he published a memoir, *Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life.*
Books by Nicholas Kristof
Tightrope
A Path Appears
Half the Sky
Thunder from the East
China Wakes
Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life
Helpful Resources
International Justice Mission
Dr. Denis Mukwege – Nobel Peace Prize
PEPFAR: The U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief
Tim Keller’s Final Interview with Kristof (NYT)
Show Notes
A voice of conscience How a global orientation for journalism developed Kristof reflects on his humble roots in Yamhill, Oregon, as the son of two immigrants “My dad was a Armenian refugee from Eastern Europe. His family had spied on the Nazis during World War II. They got caught. Some were executed by the Nazis, others were executed by the Soviet communists, and my dad was very lucky to make it out alive and was sponsored by a family in the US in 1952.” “I think that one fundamental mistake that bleeding hearts make, whether they’re bleeding hearts in journalism or in the non-profit community or in advocacy, is that we focus so much on all that is going wrong that we leave people feeling numb and feeling that it’s hopeless, so there’s no point in engaging. And there’s pretty good evidence from social-psychology experiments that people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless. They want to make a difference. And so I think that we need to both acknowledge all the challenges we face but also remind people that there can be a better outcome if they put their shoulder to the wheel.” Extraordinary changes for justice and what’s going right David Brooks: “A deeply flawed country that also managed to do good in the world.” ”It just breaks my heart that kids are dying unnecessarily.” On losing PEPFAR foreign aid: “I hope that this damage can be repaired and that bleeding hearts of the left and the right can work together to try to help restore some of these initiatives.” The tragedies that followed from dismantling USAID Kristof’s book Chasing Hope “The fact is that I've seen some terrible things, and I think I may have a mild case of PTSD from, you know, seeing too much.” Nicholas Kristof on Gaza: “I don’t see Israel and Hamas as morally equivalent, but I absolutely see an Israeli child, a Palestinian child, and an American child as moral equivalents. And we don’t treat them that way.” “What human beings share is that when terrible things happen, some people turn into psychopaths and sociopaths, and other people turn into heroes.” Cowardice and malevolent tendencies Empathy can be nurtured Children dying without anti-retroviral drugs in South Sudan Empathy Project in Canada Mass literature to inspire perspective taking Uncle Tom’s Cabin Black Beauty and animal rights/well-being Kristof’s run for Oregon governor Eastern Congo and UNICEF “A child is raped every thirty minutes in Eastern Congo.” Dr. Denis Mukwege, Nobel Peace Prize laureate treating women brutally injured by militia rape in Bukavu, a city in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. Small gestures of compassion as an empathy grower for local communities “One of the lessons I think of Congo is that violence can be and inhumanity can be terribly contagious.” Genocide in Rwanda in 1994 The global sex-trafficking crisis “We don’t have the moral authority to tell other countries to do better unless we clean up our own act.” The American sex-trafficking crisis: systemic failures such as foster care pipelines into trafficking “There are no statistics, but I think it’s plausible that a girl in foster care is more likely to emerge to be trafficked than she is to graduate from a four-year college.” American sex-trafficking practices by PornHub and X-Videos: “Their business model is monetizing kids.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there, and I, I think we’ve just blurred that too often.” Christianity’s disappointing response to injustice Nicholas Kristof’s engagement with the activism and theology of the Christian church William Wilberforce’s anti-slavery movement in the 1780s President Bush’s establishment of PEPFAR in 2003: “This incredible program to reduce the burden of AIDS that has saved 26 million lives so far. It’s the most important program of any country in my adult lifetime in terms of saving lives.” “Evangelicals are very good in terms of tithing and donating money to good causes, but they’ve often opposed government programs that would create opportunity and address these problems.” “Liberals are personally stingy, but much more supportive of government programs that that make a difference.” Criticizing the dismantling of global aid programs like USAID: “How can you read the Gospels and think this is good?” “I think being part of a religious community has led people to do good works together.” Christian advocacy for freedom of religion Kristof on scripture and belief: “We read the Bible and develop our religious views, and I think so often just reflects our priors rather than what the text says.” A closing example of hope: The Afghan war “We are an amazing species if we just get our act together.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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In this episode, Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, joins Mark Labberton to discuss the seismic political, moral, cultural, and spiritual crises facing American evangelicalism and how to respond.
Reflecting on his own journey from the Southern Baptist Convention to his current role, Moore offers a candid and theologically rich diagnosis of a movement he describes as simultaneously fragmented, bored, and longing for renewal.
Drawing parallels to historical awakenings and moments of global upheaval, Moore challenges listeners to consider what faithful Christian witness looks like in a time of digital saturation, political idolatry, and ecclesial disillusionment. Together, they wrestle with how evangelical institutions can resist becoming co-opted by market forces or ideologies, and instead return to the soul of the gospel—Jesus himself.
Episode Highlights
“We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” (Russell Moore)
“The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” (Mark Labberton)
“You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” (Wendall Berry, cited by Russell Moore)
“Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” (Nicholas Carr, cited by Russell Moore)
“Christian Nationalism is like ‘Bizarro Evangelicalism’ … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” (Russell Moore)
Karl Barth on Christian disillusionment during World War I: “We we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.”
About Russell Moore
Russell Moore is Editor in Chief of Christianity Today and is the author of Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America (Penguin Random House).
The Wall Street Journal has called Moore “vigorous, cheerful, and fiercely articulate.” He was named in 2017 to Politico Magazine’s list of top fifty influence-makers in Washington, and has been profiled by such publications as the New York Times, the Washington Post, TIME Magazine, **and the New Yorker.
An ordained Baptist minister, Moore served previously as President of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and, before that, as the chief academic officer and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he also taught theology and ethics.
Moore was a Fellow at the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics and currently serves on the board of the Becket Law and as a Senior Fellow with the Trinity Forum in Washington, D.C.
He also hosts the weekly podcast The Russell Moore Show and is co-host of Christianity Today’s weekly news and analysis podcast, The Bulletin.
Russell was President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention from 2013 to 2021. Prior to that role, Moore served as provost and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, where he also taught theology and ethics.
A native Mississippian, he and his wife Maria are the parents of five sons. They live in Nashville, where he teaches the Bible regularly at their congregation, Immanuel Church.
Show Notes
Comparing Christianity Today and Fuller Theological Seminary Religious reconsiderations post-World War II “My grandfather was blown out of a tank by the Nazis in the Battle of the Bulge and came back. He went an unbeliever, came back really feeling his mortality and, and searching for answers. And ended up at a revival meeting where he came to know Christ.” A false choice presented to Christians: “You had this false choice being presented to Christians … you either go with an ever narrowing, ever quarrelsome sort of group of fundamentalists or you liberalize.” Billy Graham and Martin Luther King, Jr. The recent history of Evangelical Christianity A Movement in Crisis: What is the state of Evangelicalism in America? Revival preachers and entrepreneurialism: a religious, market-driven reality “Lifelessness and deadness” “ I can't think of a single church that has split over Christology. Most of the arguments have to do with politics and, and related sort of cultural issues because that's what people really care about and what they really think often is important.” Tumult of the digital economy Alienation, dehumanization: “We can simultaneously think of ourselves as gods and as sets of data and algorithms.” Speed of change and life Teaching ethics: a final exam question students have never thought about How to prepare people for ethical problems and real-life challenges Mental health crisis: “high rates of depression and anxiety driven by a piece of glass that everybody carries in his or her pocket that can connect that person with all of the information in the entire world.” 100 years since the invention and use of the microphone No microphones, but extraordinary voices “The dials are askew, because the sound that evangelicalism is evoking in so many quadrants is a sound that is hostile and grading and brash and arrogant.” “The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” Secularization How Evangelicalism appeals to people: End Times Prophecy, Marriage and Family Values, and Shocking Attention-Grabbing “Real life takes on the characteristics of the internet.” Wendall Berry: “You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” Can you give us some hope? “Hope that is seen is not hope. Instead, there's suffering that creates endurance. Endurance that creates character, character that creates hope, and hope does not put to shame.” Ezekiel and the valley of the dry bones What is the work of Christianity Today right now? Redefining who is “us.” Who is the “we” of Evangelicalism? “We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” 2 Corinthians 4: “The glory of God reflected in the face of Jesus Christ.” Karl Barth and disillusionment during World War I: “We we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.” How to cultivate freedom “One of the major challenges to a freedom is loss of attention.” “I have to be free from the constant whirl—and what he meant at the time was the radio, you know, which is nothing compared to what we have—because my attention is necessary for me to be able to serve and to give.” “Kingdom of God is like yeast.” Waiting, attention, and a longer view of time “How do you then hold onto this freedom that we're describing in a way of connected disconnectedness or disconnected connectedness or something?” Nicholas Carr: “Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” Revelation and the Book of Daniel: “Seal all this up for now. … Don’t worry about it.” Nebuchadnezzar demanding that. Shadrach, Mishak, and Abednego bow down and worship the golden statue. Evangelical Pastors: Preaching the Bible versus advocating a political vision Galatians 1 and 2—Paul’s not yielding to false teachers in order to preserve the Gospel New Apostolic Reformation Christian Nationalism: “Bizarro Evangelicalism … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” “Blood mysticism” Jonathan Rauch’s Cross Purposes Keeping guard up in conversations with disagreement “Simply asking for Christians to be who we say we are.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.”
PEPFAR is the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. And as of March 25, 2025, its congressional reauthorization has expired.
For more than two decades, its website states, “the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history—saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries.”
Now, some estimate that over 20 million people will lose access to antiretroviral drugs, which may result in up to 1,650,000 deaths over the coming year.
In this episode, Mark Labberton speaks with Mindy Belz, an award-winning journalist and longtime war correspondent, to explore the urgent moral and humanitarian implications of PEPFAR’s uncertain future. Drawing on Belz’s deep reporting experience in conflict zones and her time covering global health efforts, their conversation traces the remarkable legacy of the U.S. government’s investment in HIV/AIDS relief, the stakes of congressional inaction, and the broader questions this crisis raises about American moral leadership, Christian charity, and global responsibility.
Together they discuss:
Mindy Belz’s background as a journalist and war correspondent
The significance of PEPFAR in the global battle against HIV/AIDS
The pivotal leadership role the U.S. government has played in supporting AIDS relief efforts for the past two decades
The devastating impact that losing PEPFAR would have on human life around the world, particularly in Africa
And, perspectives on charity, moral conscience, and faith in American Christianity
Helpful Links
mindybelz.com
Mindy’s Article about PEPFAR: “1,650,000: How killing a global program to fight HIV/AIDS kills”: “PEPFAR contracts ended under Trump mean 20 million people on treatment now face HIV disease again. Without more reinstatements that could lead to a death toll of 1.6 million in a year's time.”
About PEPFAR, the “President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief”: Through PEPFAR, the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history – saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries.
From ThinkGlobalHealth: “PEPFAR Misses Reauthorization Deadline: What's Next for Global HIV Fight?”
Mindy’s book They Say We Are Infidels: On the Run from ISIS with Persecuted Christians in the Middle East
Follow Mindy on X @mindybelz
Follow Mindy on Substack: Globe Trot
About Mindy Belz
Mindy Belz is an award-winning American journalist. For over two decades, she has covered wars and victims of conflict in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan and the Balkans. She recounts some of her experiences in a 2016 award-winning book, They Say We Are Infidels.
Her work appears in The Wall Street Journal, Plough Quarterly, and other publications. The New York Times calls her “one of the bravest and best foreign correspondents in the country.”
Mindy currently is editor of the 2024 Christianity Today Globe project. Her news roundup, Globe Trot, is read by thousands each week and available on Substack. She speaks internationally and has taught journalism courses in Uganda, India, Hungary, and the United States. She is the former senior editor at World Magazine.
A mother of four and grandmother of three, Mindy was married for 40 years to Nat Belz, who died in 2023. She lives in North Carolina.
Show Notes
Mindy Belz: A Journalist in the Trenches
Mindy Belz and her career at World Magazine Mindy’s coverage of the AIDS pandemic in East Africa and the war in Sudan The rise of Islamic extremism, Al-Quaeda, and crossing the Tigris into Iraq Her early experiences in journalism and what drew her to war reporting How she came to report from the Middle East and other conflict zones The challenges Mindy faced as a woman journalist “We've all experienced some of the conflict in the world. We've all experienced some terrorism and violence … this is a part of life in a broken and fallen world, and so learning from women, from men, from children incredible resilience in the face of terrible breakdowns is that I just consider a real privilege of my work.” Working with a Sudanese NGO—finding starving people, barely surviving “For Americans, we always get to walk away. I'm really aware in whatever hard situation I'm in, there's little voice at the back of my brain that's saying, ‘Don't forget you get to go home.’”What is PEPFAR?
“ President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief,” developed by George W. Bush in 2003 Trendsetting program to battle HIV/AIDS Anti-viral drug program to prevent the spread (but not cure) the disease “We still don’t have a real cure for HIV.” “You have 20 million people who are currently taking antiretroviral drugs that are funded under PEPFAR and most of those people just suddenly could not have access to their medicine and, and that means that we are watching even now the disease grow.” “The Trump administration has basically shuttered the program and they have done so without the oversight of Congress.” Nicholas Kristof’s NYT March 15 article estimates that 1.6 million people could die over the next year. Link: “Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn’t True.” “The scale of the devastation is mind-bending.” What can we do? “Congress is not exercising its oversight responsibilities right now.” “If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” What is the role of our government? “I've also seen PEPFAR working and working incredibly. I routinely and in lifesaving ways.” Understanding moral conscience “We are needing to call our nation not to a Christian identity, which I think is the, the false attempt of Christian nationalism, but to a moral identity. That people of faith, little faith, no faith, other faiths, can enter into and share. And I think some element of that has been operational in the United States for a very long time. And now all of that is being dismantled and being labeled, as you say, by a really cheap word like charity, as though there's no wider frame than simply compassionate sentimentality, as opposed to something that's really taking the moral realities of the world and all of their urgency seriously. And not pretending that we need to be (as we've sometimes tried to be as a nation) the healer of the nations, but to say that we should actually be a force for taking these issues with great national seriousness, and not just repudiating it because it's not inside the boundaries of our own country.” “Use the influence and the economic force of the United States to fund local programs.” “ We have the resources to go and make a difference in this situation. And by doing that we set an example for others to do it.” “We have adopted an attitude of scarcity.” The impact and efficacy of antiretroviral drugs to improve the lives of people with HIV/AIDS—”To suddenly cut them off is an act of cruelty.” “This is a system, not just medication.” “If we’re suddenly saving $5 billion a year, what is that going to be used for?” ”If these things are all happening by executive decision, and Congress does not have a meaningful role, then essentially the people are cut out of the conversation.” “People who become sicker with HIV will become more likely to have tuberculosis, more likely to be suffering from other diseases than side effects of the virus itself.”Where Is God in All of This?
“It's a dangerous world. Go anyway.” “We have to trust that the hand of God is there and that it will meet us in the midst of those hard situations.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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"Listening is everything. Without listening, there’s no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode)
Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life.
In this episode, they discuss:
Charlie’s new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music
The communal nature of making and producing music
The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life
Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things
Hearing and visualizing music
The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention,
How listening transforms both art and relationships,
Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production,
And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life.
About Charlie Peacock
Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association’s Producer of the Year Award, he’s named by Billboard’s Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com.
Episode Highlights
"If you’re not paying attention, you’re missing the song that’s already being sung around you."
"A mentor doesn’t hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate."
"Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain."
"The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work."
"Music isn’t just a product—it’s a means of connection, healing, and worship."
Show Notes
Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm Music and community The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music Michael Polanyi tacit understandings Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral The joy of generational community Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability “That’s what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it’s hard to go to sleep at night.” “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.” “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.” “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God’s grip.” Charlie Peacock’s Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.” John Coltrane’s spiritual journey “250 people a night…” “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.” Hans Rookmaaker Inklings Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L’Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer) “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …” “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.” “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.” The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte) Over-compressed music. “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I’m committed to this music.” “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.” Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn’t use me.” “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.’ It came through God, people, and place.” A worker-bee in the music business “Like a house with a party going on” Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they areProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. … There’s a wideness in God’s mercy. Since when has anybody said mercy for some and not for all? … Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. … This is not an impossible crisis to solve. … We need to not be divided by our political affiliations. As Christians, we stand with Christ, who critiques all human institutions.” (Alexia Salvatierra, from the episode)
The immigration crisis on US borders reveals a deeper crisis of humanity—another example of democracy at a turning point. What should be the Christian response to the current immigration crisis? How can the individuals and small communities take effective action? And who are the real people most affected by immigration policy in the United States?
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes theologian, pastor, and activist Alexia Salvatierra. She shares stories from the front lines of immigration justice.
Alexia Salvatierra is an ordained Lutheran pastor and a leading voice in faith-based social justice movements. She serves as assistant professor of integral mission and global transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a key organizer in immigrant advocacy for over four decades. She co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and works extensively with grassroots organizations to address the intersection of faith, justice, and policy.
Together they discuss:
Personal testimonies and policy insights based on stories of real people facing the immigration system in the United States The challenges immigrants face under an increasingly unforgiving system How faith communities can respond with faithful courage and productive grief, instead of outrage The global nature of the immigration, refugee, and foreign-aid crisis The width of God’s mercy and the effectiveness of immigration and refugee public policy A call to action for Christians to become “gracious disrupters” and stand with the vulnerableHelpful Links and Resources
World Relief – Christian organization supporting refugees Lutheran Social Services – Organization falsely accused of money launderingShow Notes
Immigration policy and the church’s response The impact of executive orders on deportation and asylum seekers Faith-based advocacy for immigrants The role of Latino churches in immigrant support How Christians can move from outrage to courageous action Immigration reform Faith-based activism ICE raids on churches Asylum seekers and deportation Christian response to immigration crisis Latino churches and advocacy Political fear versus Christian courage The role of the church in justice Broken immigration system Policy changes under different administrationsImmigration Today: Stories and Case Studies
An Assemblies of God pastor from Guatemala, facing deportation despite three qualifying cases for legal residency—South Los Angeles “ That’s what we mean by a broken system, is there’s all these little wrinkles in the system that don’t work.” Detention at a deportation facility called Adelanto ”They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane.” Asylum, ankle bracelets, and “legitimate fear” “ They said he was a criminal because he had entered without authorization twenty years before when he was a teenager.” ICE agents attempting to detain a man during a worship service ICE and “sensitive locations”—Is a church an ICE “sensitive location”? Hispanic Theological Education Association Latino Christian National Network “That arrest has provoked intense fear. … they’re terrified to go to church.” The impact of anti-immigration policies on church attendance and spiritual care A desperate mother of a special-needs child preparing legal custody papers in case of deportation The economic and moral contradictions in mass deportation efforts “Cities that have municipal sanctuary laws are threatened with suit by the new administration.”The Global Immigration and Refugee Crisis
“All around the world immigration is in crisis.” 1980 Refugee Act “All the countries who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to take refugees.” The concept of “Refoulment”—”which means that you’re sending someone back to die.” “Not only are all refugee programs stopped, but current refugees are not getting the support that they need.” “ Costa Rica is a five-million-person country and they’ve taken two million refugees.”American Immigration During the Trump Administration
Elon Musk saying “ that Lutheran Social Services was a money-laundering machine.” Current administration’s policies as “ bold, unilateral, and so comprehensive and unnuanced” “If the Trump administration is successful at deporting ten million people, many of whom have been here over twenty years, thirty years, um, where will we find the labor that we need?”Policy and Legal Discussion
The end of Deferred Deportation under the Trump and Biden administrations Executive orders eliminating prioritization of deportation The freezing of USAID and refugee support programs “All foreign aid has always been strategic. It’s never not.” “Global warming refugees” “The current president of Venezuela loves gangs.” “Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. … this is not an impossible crisis to solve.” The bipartisan immigration bill that Trump advised Republicans to block Historical immigration policies and their effectiveness “Policy does make a difference.” Objection to open borders: What about mercy for Americans? A false dichotomy. God’s mercy is wide. “We have a number of believers in Congress who are acting out of fear right now and not out of faith.”Call to Action
How faith communities can support immigrants “Immigrant churches are taking the brunt of this.” Why outrage doesn’t help the process Ways to engage with legislators and advocate for reform The importance of standing with immigrant churches in this moment Supporting organizations like World Relief and Lutheran Social Services “The bulk of the people in the United States, the majority, have not had to grieve on this level. Not had to grieve with this intensity, with this constancy. Our spiritual muscles are weak—in terms of knowing how to grieve and keep going and trust God. ‘Though he slay me, I will worship him.’” “Encourage literally means ‘to get more courage.’ You know, to give courage, to get courage. And so I just would want everybody to stop being outraged and start being courageous.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.”
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the full-bodied, empathetic nature of listening and the communication process. He reflects on good listening, the empathy it requires, and what it means to truly recognize and successfully understand each other.
Listening and perceiving are bound up together in a fundamental way, offering us an opportunity to enter into another’s experience, truly seeing and recognizing them and receiving who they are.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
“Listening is almost always seeing.” Full-bodied listening and how perception adds to our understanding of each other “If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” Examples of bad listening: “pinning words on the speaker.” Recognition for the speaker: “My listening reflects that I'm actually perceiving them.” The fun and joyful work of communication Total body experience of listening and perceiving is about empathy. Empathy and entering the speaker’s world and experience The difference empathy makes “Empathy, even when you're wanting to give it doesn't make it automatic. It often has to be something that emerges out of the communication experience itself.” Hearing, perception, and full-bodied communication “How we see and receive another person’s being…” Achieving a communication breakthrough: “Oh, I see!” ”It is like amazing grace is playing in the background. And I want to say ‘I once was blind, but now I see’ that's what it feels like a real revelatory discovery.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“‘To whom much is given, much is expected.’ … That is the core of our Christian belief.”
“I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad brush.”
(Condoleezza Rice, from this episode)
In this episode, Condoleezza Rice joins Mark Labberton to discuss the state of US foreign and domestic policy in light of Christian moral convictions. Secretary Rice served as the 66th US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush, has been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1981, and is currently the director of the Hoover Institution.
Together they discuss:
The state of US foreign policy and international relations
How to think about American involvement in global politics
The importance of US foreign assistance
American patriotism and Christian devotion
And Condoleezza Rice’s prayers for American leaders right now: discernment, judgment, compassion, and policy that reflects the dignity of all human beings.
About Condoleezza Rice
Condoleezza Rice is the Tad and Dianne Taube Director of the Hoover Institution and the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy. She is the Denning Professor in Global Business and the Economy at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. In addition, she is a founding partner of Rice, Hadley, Gates & Manuel, LLC, an international strategic consulting firm.
From January 2005 to January 2009, Rice served as the 66th Secretary of State of the United States, the second woman and first black woman to hold the post. Rice also served as President George W. Bush’s Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (National Security Advisor) from January 2001 to January 2005, the first woman to hold the position.
Rice served as Stanford University’s provost from 1993 to 1999, during which time she was the institution’s chief budget and academic officer. As professor of political science, she has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the university’s highest teaching honors.
From February 1989 through March 1991, Rice served on President George H.W. Bush’s National Security Council staff. She served as director, then senior director, of Soviet and East European Affairs, as well as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. In 1986, while an International Affairs Fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice also served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
For more information, visit her profile at the Hoover Institution.
Show Notes
The state of US international relations “ The beginning of any administration is a bit chaotic” “I continue to hope that we will find a way to help Ukraine so that Vladimir Putin doesn't benefit from the aggression that he committed.” “The United States will undoubtedly play a different role. … That is the outcome of what's been eighty years of post World War II American engagement. … And so we need to ask, what are our values? What are our interests? And I think we're going to, we're going to see a good, solid American role in foreign policy.” Is the world order in the process of receiving a shock treatment? “ We really do need to rebuild our defense industrial base.” USAID: “ I'm a great believer that foreign assistance is one of the important tools in our toolkit of foreign policy.” “ I actually am one who believes that the absorption of USAID into the State Department is the right answer.” On US foreign assistance “A lot of what we do is purely humanitarian, purely life saving. We should. Just do that. Some of what we do is also strategic. What countries do we help to develop to be less fragile so that they don't become hubs for terrorism? … And sometimes our assistance is to stabilize places in the world so that we don't face a security problem down the road.” Developing infrastructure “Am I patriotic? Do I love my country? Am I a nationalist? Absolutely. Am I Christian? Yes. And so I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad crust.” “But if we think about what it means to be Christian, it means to care about every human being, because every human being is created in the image of the Lord, and therefore every human being has worth.” “One of the closing comments from President Bush was, ‘To whom much is given, much is expected. … that is the core of our Christian belief.” What is the state of the Christian influence in American politics and life? Emulating the early church in establishing orphanages and hospitals, “and to be a voice on behalf of those who are dispossessed.” Religious Freedom “When I was secretary of state, not because I was Christian, but because I was secretary of state, I would take a list of religious objectors with me to countries like China.” “The evangelical church has been very involved in human trafficking issues. We actually do have a problem of modern slavery.” “The church has a lot of potential to be a really good force in the world.” Condoleeza Rice’s most passionate prayers for the nation and the world right now “My most passionate prayer is that our leaders would have—and I actually pray this prayer— that they would have judgment and discernment, that they would have compassion, that they would lead from a position of knowing how much America has, and that they would understand that our role in the world derives from our universal belief in human freedom and that it is the only way that human beings have the dignity that they should have as having been created by God.” “I think one of the reasons we've had a bit of a backlash against some foreign assistance is that people wonder, ‘Well, are you thinking about Americans in the same way?’”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“ When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
Why is it so hard to communicate? To accomplish the simple task of delivering and receiving information?
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton suggests that real and successful communication is a miracle, and an infrequent one at that. Our failure to communicate regularly demonstrates just how far we are from adequately listening to one another. Ultimately, if we want to seek the miracle of communication, we need to take the responsibility to “close the loop” and do the work of hearing, listening, and acknowledging receipt.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
Endless communication meetings talking about the failure of our communication News media’s failure to communicate Marital failures to communicate Parent-child failures to communicate Overcommunicating with too much information Undoing miscommunication “Communication is a miracle and not a frequent one.” Why is it so hard to communicate? “ In many ways, the stakes are against us when we’re really trying to communicate.” Ears, eyes, space, time, sounds, lighting How far we are from adequately listening to one another Acknowledging receipt of a message “The world is pushy. Culture is pushy.” Clarity of mind and heart ”When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” The importance of closing the communication loop “If I’m seeking the miracle of communication, then I have to live into the responsibility of closing the loop of communication and not just being a passive recipient of what it is that’s been said.” Failure to close the loop is what allows us to measuring the infrequency of true, successful communication.Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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This is a turbulent time for American democracy. Years, perhaps decades, of social change is manifesting in the form of distrust, violence, chaos, fear, loneliness, and despair.
But Conversing, along with Comment magazine, is about hope, healing, and hospitality.
For this special 200th episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton invites Anne Snyder (Editor-in-Chief, Comment magazine) for a close reading and discussion of the 2025 Comment Manifesto, a hopeful new document offering a vision of Christian Humanism for this era.
Together they discuss:
The meaning and intent behind a new Comment magazine Manifesto for Christian humanism
The Incarnation of Christ for what it means to be human
Hospitality in an era of exclusion
Healthy institutions and the importance of communal agency
Individualism vs communitarianism
Learning to perceive the world in fresh, surprising ways
About the Comment Manifesto
To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/, or scroll below.
To watch a reading of selections from the Comment Manifesto, click here.
About Anne Snyder
Anne Snyder is the Editor-in-Chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information.
For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.
Anne also oversees our Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).
Show Notes
Giving thanks for 200 episodes of Conversing! 2000 years of Christian thought to the public square James K.A. Smith, the former editor of Comment Magazine Seeking a positive moral vision A turbulent moment for democracy MANIFESTO SECTION 1 “We are Christian humanists…” What it means to be human in our age—our infinite dignity, relationship to the earth, and woundedness The significance of Jesus Christ for what it means to be human What the Incarnation of Christ means for our world “So many people we know and love and respect feel ecclesially homeless, obviously politically homeless.” MANIFESTO SECTION 2 “We believe it’s time to build…” Agency Called to a co-creative project Productive and constructive “Contributing the true and good and beautiful in a messy world.” MANIFESTO SECTION 3 “We believe in institutions…” Collective, common, and communal Institutions, as part of the social architecture of our world, can be extraordinarily positive. “I always get asked, ‘Why do you believe in institutions? Why? You don’t need to! They’re gone! They’re dead!’” “Healthy institutions are channels within which you can actually realize your sense of agency in a way that might be more moving than you ever would have imagined just by yourself.” Yuval Levin’s take on community (paraphrased): “All the tumult we're experiencing, we're just having a big fight about what kinds of what community means.” Polarization MAGA as a kind of community “I consider myself a bit of a communitarian.” Christian humanism throughout history always has four projects connected to it: Theology, character formation, political economy, and aesthetic. MANIFESTO SECTION 4 “We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us.” Addressing the fractured social fabric and isolation of this age Encounter and trust Hospitality— ”taking one another's being and doing in the world seriously enough” Enter the room listening MANIFESTO SECTION 5 “We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital.” “This is our most aggressive claim.” Distinguishing Comment from peer publications such as First Things “All cultures are fallen, and we’re part of another kingdom.” Galatians 5 and the Fruit of the Spirit Civilizational Christianity The smallness of “faith, family, flag” “So much of my Christian identity has been rewritten by experiences of Christian faith that are completely outside the, the social reality that is my fundamental location.” ”When Christianity seems to be running the dangerous risk of being captured, captured by a certain kind of ideological political social frame that feels as though it's really making itself primary simply by its Napoleonic capacity for self-crowning, that is a very, very dangerous thing.” MANIFESTO SECTION 6 “We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.” Perceiving the world differently Down syndrome and the expression of a different kind of knowing or wisdom Full circle with the first principle of the imago Dei Functioning out of either confidence, uncertainty, or anxiety Mark Labberton’s friend Dustin (R.I.P), who had cerebral palsy Fatigue, trying to get our bearings Looking for moral and eschatological coherenceProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
The 6 Primary Sections of the 2025 Comment Manifesto
To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/.
We are Christian humanists, those who believe that Jesus Christ—God become man—is the ultimate measure of what it means to be human. We believe that every human being is created in the image of God, whole persons who are at once fallen yet gloriously endowed, finite and dependent, yet deserving of infinite dignity. We seek to stay true both to the wonder and to the woundedness of life this side of the veil, even as our eschatology floods us with hope: Jesus has walked with us, died, risen, and ascended, and he will come again to make all things new.
We believe it’s a time to build, that the creative imagination and the Christian imagination are mysteriously linked. We want to begin with the Yes in Christ, not our own noes. While there is an important role for criticism baptized in a study of what is true, good, and beautiful, it is a means to an end—the basis for wise repair and imagination, not the justification for destruction or erasure. We are committed to keeping orthodoxy and orthopraxy married, taking seriously our job to translate between them.
We believe in institutions: government, guilds, families, schools, universities, the church. We recognize that in our age of individualism, institutions are often painted as the enemy. We try to change that, seeking to shape the character of today’s most formative institutions while exploring what kind of reimagined social architecture might compel the next generation’s trust.
We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us. Loving enemies is bedrock for Comment, hospitality core. We are champions of the difficult room. We believe in the deeper truths that can be discovered when different life experiences and distinct sources of wisdom are gathered around one table. We intentionally publish arguments with which we disagree, including those who don’t hail Christ as Lord, not for the sake of pluralism without conviction, but because Christians have always better understood the contours and depths of their faith when crystallized through exchanges with strangers turned friends.
We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital. While the audience we serve is navigating a North American context, we serve this audience from an understanding that Christianity is an intercultural, polyglot religion. At a time of rising religious ethno-nationalism, we insist that no culture can claim to represent the true form of Christianity, and we actively seek for our authors and partners to reflect the global reality of the church.
We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.
...
Our theory of change takes its cues from the garden, less the machine. We are personalists, not ideologues. We follow the logic of Jesus’s mustard seed, of yeast transforming a whole pile of dough, of the principle of contagiousness and change happening over generations. We believe in the value of slow thought. We are skeptical of the language of scale in growing spiritual goods. While we wish to be savvy in unmasking the either/or reactivity of our age and will always call out dehumanizing trendlines, we are fundamentally animated by the creative impulse, by a philosophy of natality expressed through hospitality. This feels especially important in this time between eras when no one knows what’s next, and we need one another to recalibrate, to reflect, and to shape a hopeful future.
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”I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical.”
“The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.”
“That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.”
—Jonathan Rauch, from the episode
We’re at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life.
In his new book, Jonathan Rauch “reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity.” He “addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances.”
Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.
He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize.
In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss:
Republican virtue What Jesus and James Madison have in common The political idolatry of secularism The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church The political orientation of the church in exile Tyrannical fear The Morman church’s example of civic theology “of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” The promise of power in exchange for loyaltyAbout Jonathan Rauch
Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode), Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch.
Show Notes
Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Reasonable, civic mindedness “Graciousness toward a faith you don’t share.” “Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it.” The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh 2003 Atlantic article: “The dumbest thing I ever wrote” celebrating secularism in America (”Let It Be,” The Atlantic, May 2003) “ It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning.” Political idolatry of secularism “A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity’s crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that’s why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity.” “Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” Mark’s description of his father: “ My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. … What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day.” “God’s capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love” Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus? “Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy.” “Republican virtues” (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic Christianity’s role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom “When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder.” “The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted.” “The sharp church is … where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party.” Divisive and polarizing “The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values.” Church of fear Fear of demographic decline Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left Fear of emasculation Plain old political fear: “Our side needs to win.” Fear as a major theme of the Bible Fear of God as “the beginning of wisdom” “A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned.” Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church “The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish.” “Tyrannical fear”—a drive for dominance “Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” “Fear casts out love.” Trump administration[’s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy.” The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile Isaiah 58: “ Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?” “Exilic Church” “ Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics.” “It can’t be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically.” “The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power.” [Trump] is saying, “I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty.” Comparing Trump’s transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) “If you vote for me, you will have power” with the temptation of Christ in the desert: “All of this will be yours if you bow down to me.” Transactional relationship with power The Mormon church’s “ civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” Jesus: “Don’t be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other.” Madisonian liberalism: “Don’t panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don’t seek retribution if you win, share the country.” “When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, ‘It would be a good idea.’” Black church and MLK Jr.—”emphasis on Reverend” “You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek.” Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural exampleProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
“What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)
“ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode)
The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump’s second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional?
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump’s first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers.
Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He’s founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.
Together they discuss:
The authority of the Constitution over the presidency The importance of character in the office of the president The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices Why we should worry, but not panicAbout Yuval Levin
Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times.
At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish.
Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President’s Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels.
In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024).
He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago.
Show Notes
A time of “presidential gigantism” “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” Pluralism and vigorous debate Swamping a weak, divided Congress Separation of Powers Legislature vs Executive Branch “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.” “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” Performative nature of political roles “Random grab-bag of power plays.” Fear of a “lawless president” “The beginning of a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.” “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.” Elon Musk as Pseudo-President “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.” “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.” Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check? Overturning Chevron deference “Character is destiny.” “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.” ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.” “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.” Presidential overreach Loyalty tests and punishment “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.” Having room for opposition “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.” Alarm Bells First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.” Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.” Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.” Character and mindset Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person. Dangers on the horizon Checks and balances Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term? “On the whole our institutions have proven fairly strong.” “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …” Yuval Levin’s American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again What is the voice of citizenship right now? Appropriations “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.” “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.” “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.” “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.” A variety of voices “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.” “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?” “God Bless America.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode)
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that “I am not you.”
He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange.
Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of “differentiated others,” listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we’re likely to gain.
Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker’s interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation The adventure of knowing another person Mature listening Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange “A chance to be more than our mere selves.” We’re each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc. Understanding the volley or back-and-forth “Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we’re preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That’s something else. That’s about plotting and planning, or it’s about fear, or it’s about anxiety …” Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions. “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people Listening is an unmasking of presumption. Exposing our presumptions Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley “These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” (Megan Katerjian, from the episode)
What is it like to lose your house in a fire?
The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed.
Today’s guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family’s northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry.
In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like.
Together they discuss:
Megan’s story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it Megan’s work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: “One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children.” The meaning of a social safety network The effect of trauma on decision-making What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing The social and economic impact of homelessness The difference between financial and relational poverty And how you can help those affected by the Eaton FireIf you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary’s Wind and Fire Resources page.
Additional links:
Summary of Eaton Fire
City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates
About Megan Katerjian
Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California.
Megan holds two master’s degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor’s degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management.
Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025.
Show Notes
Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires Temporary housing to transitional housing “I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” Integrating Jesus and justice How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless The power-control cycle single mothers face A mother’s story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment Altadena’s fires Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena “It’s about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space.” Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort “I don’t think I’ve ever sobbed that hard in my life.” Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California Self-care “I can’t watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering.” Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces Being with people who went through the same experience Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California “I talked to God in very distracted conversations.” “The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me.” Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness The irony of learning about homeless The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing “What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma.” The “Social Service Shuffle”: good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc. FEMA and “a sea of cots” “If I had nothing in my bank account and didn’t have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now.” “Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it’s about relational poverty.” The benefits of a thick social safety network Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher? Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena “The economics look a little different.” Three families in the same home—”what does their social safety network look like?” Door of Hope pivoting to create the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program Working with FEMA and home insurance Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love Self-care as restorative rather than selfish A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern CaliforniaProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump’s second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you’re filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic?
Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary).
Together they discuss:
The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office;
The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment;
Repentance, repair, and understanding;
How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life;
Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern;
What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art);
Learning disagreement in a post-civility era;
Peacemaking instead of polarization;
Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal;
And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office.
About Peter Wehner
Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships.
Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives.
Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia.
About Anne Snyder
Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information.
For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large.
Anne also oversees Comment’s partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).
About David Goatley
David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995).
In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment.
Show Notes
What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens “Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing.” Pete Wehner: a first-generation American From ideals to reality about the history of America “ I’m the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be.” “Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment.” The scene for Inauguration Day 2021 Strength and vitality of American life What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years? “Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I’m happy to say, welcome to my world.” The posture of believers and people of good will to “keep a moral ethical grounding” “Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless” Pulled in different directions Eugene Peterson formulation: “There’s the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way.” Called to be different things at different moments Name reality as best we can “Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?” Will there be a World War III in the next decade? Creative ways to develop resilience “A great chastening” “I feel both curious and really concerned.” When patience runs out “ I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things.” The shifting global stage The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn’t stop listening or caring What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment? Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective. Turning off the news National Gallery of Art’s Impressionist exhibit (link) “For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency.” Jon Batiste “Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem” Are we living in the post-civility era? Peacemaking instead of polarization Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal “Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world” “ I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there’s reconstruction.” “There’s a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late ‘60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world.” Prayers for Donald Trump That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders That “Not our will but Thy will be done.” For moral sensitivity ”I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life.” “We’re part of a story, and there’s an author. … But those chapters aren’t the whole story.” A notorious chapter in American historyProduction Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
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“The Good News is still good news.”
“I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.”
(Walter Kim, from this episode)
How does evangelicalism relate to the dominant political powers of our world?
In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes Walter Kim to Conversing. As the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and host of the Difficult Conversations podcast, Walter holds on to deep Christian orthodoxy alongside the most vigorous and necessary intellectual, personal, ethical, and theological reflections, offering a vision of leadership and spiritual-moral imagination to bolster the future of evangelicalism.
Together they discuss:
Christianity, pluralism, and polarization
The fraught meaning of “evangelicalism” in America and what it means to be a “good news person” in this political moment
The human impulse to wield power and the temptation of evangelicals to join with empire
The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding and the necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism
How evangelicals are retelling and recasting the story of the gospel in today’s political climate
About Walter Kim
Walter Kim serves as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a role he’s held since January of 2020. Previously, he was the pastor of Boston's historic Park Street Church, and has served other churches in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Charlottesville, Virginia, and as a campus chaplain at Yale University. He received a BA from Northwestern University, an MDiv from Regent College, and a PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern languages and civilizations. He hosts the Difficult Conversations podcast.
Show Notes
Long-term faithfulness to the gospel in the maelstrom of challenges and difficulties ”My experience has been one of extremes. … There is the lived reality of polarization, at which I find often myself right in the centre.” ”Sober self-assessment … one should always, as a Christian, be self-suspicious: Am I compromising? … Am I responding in faith or out of fear?” “Purveyor of the good news in action.” “Our labour in Christ is not in vain … ultimately Christ remains Lord and Savior of all.” The word “evangelical” and the state of US evangelicalism What does it mean to be a “good news person”? World Evangelical Alliance General Assembly Laussane and a gathering of five thousand evangelicals from around the world “It’s not a branding issue. It’s a substance issue.” “Global church with a polycentric distribution of leadership and resources” “Whatever our maelstrom and vortex may be in America, it pales in comparison to what brothers and sisters are experiencing throughout the world.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. … The good news of Jesus Christ doesn’t win and doesn’t lose based on a political party winning or losing.” Religious community vs “the other” How does the church relate to dominant powers? Image of God is not just an abstract idea “The democratization of the image of God to all people—not just to the rulers—was a profoundly prophetic statement.” Tower of Babel: A story not just about hubris, but about hoarding power and the ways political imperialism can use religion for its own purposes. “This is not a uniquely American problem. … This is a problem of humanity.” Evangelicals who have given themselves to empire Marring God’s image and remaking God in our own image Pluralism and Christianity The capacity for self-reflection The Christian underpinnings of the American nation’s founding, and the rise of Christian nationalism “What’s different now is the pluralism.” The necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism Ingredient 1: The belief that America was founded as a Christian nation Ingredient 2: A sense or feeling of loss Ingredient 3: The answer to regaining what you lost is political Descriptive versus prescriptive: Was America founded as a Christian nation? Hope in the loving and just reign of God No national church: “living under their own vine and fig tree.” The reason we don’t privilege Christianity in the Constitution Lilly Endowment project “The Good News is still good news.” “Retelling and recasting the story … as a message of hope.” “ This initiative is an opportunity for us to tell the beautiful story of Jesus, while not neglecting the ways that story has been marred.” Luke 4: Jesus’s first public speech. “ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the oppressed. And to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.
- Visa fler
