Avsnitt
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In Episode 112 of Bionic Planet, titled "Fantasy Football and Dynamic Baselines: New Tools for Impact Assessment," we unpack the often misunderstood concept of dynamic baselines and its origin in synthetic controls, using fantasy football as an analogy.
The episode begins with a clear and relatively simple explanation of dynamic baselines, which have emerged as a valuable tool in climate finance. Unlike traditional static baselines, which rely on fixed reference points, dynamic baselines adapt to changing conditions and provide a more accurate measure of impact. We discuss the importance of data and the need for robust methodologies to ensure that we can effectively attribute changes in deforestation and other environmental metrics to specific interventions.
Our guests for this episode are Lynn Riley from the American Forest Foundation and David Schoch from TerraCarbon, both of whom have played pivotal roles in advancing the application of synthetic controls in carbon markets. They share insights from their work on the Family Forest Carbon Program, which aims to engage small family landowners in sustainable forest management practices. Through their collaboration, they have developed methodologies that not only improve the accuracy of carbon accounting but also empower landowners to adapt their practices based on real-time feedback.
Throughout the episode, we examine the challenges of establishing effective baselines in diverse contexts, particularly in the United States. We highlight the significance of the Forest Inventory and Analysis (FIA) data, which provides a rich source of information for modeling deforestation risk and assessing the impact of various interventions. The conversation also touches on the importance of addressing confounding variables and ensuring that methodologies are applicable across different forest types and ownership structures.
As we wrap up, we reflect on the broader implications of dynamic baselines for climate finance and the potential for these innovative approaches to drive meaningful change in forest management. By fostering a more responsive and data-driven framework, we can better understand the impacts of our actions and work towards a more sustainable future.
Join us for this engaging episode as we bridge the worlds of sports and environmental science, uncovering the lessons that can be learned from both fields in our quest to navigate the Anthropocene.
Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Bionic Planet and Episode Overview
Quotes
00:01:03 - Justin Fields and the NFL Draft Dynamics
00:02:14 - Caleb Williams vs. Justin Fields: A Season Comparison
00:04:27 - Troy Aikman on Rookie Quarterback Struggles
00:05:53 - Sam Darnold's Journey Through the NFL
00:06:58 - Kurt Warner's Unlikely Rise to Success
00:07:48 - Connecting Sports Performance to Climate Impact Assessment
00:08:31 - Challenges in Measuring Success in Climate Finance
00:09:12 - Dynamic Baselines vs. Traditional Baselines
00:10:32 - Introduction of Guests: Lynn Riley and David Schoch
00:11:18 - Overview of the Family Forest Carbon Program
00:11:59 - The Green Municipalities Program in Brazil
00:12:53 - Evaluating the Impact of the Green Municipalities Program
00:13:58 - Synthetic Control Method Explained
00:15:30 - Causal Inference and Its Importance
00:16:52 - Fantasy Football as an Analogy for Synthetic Controls
00:19:00 - Comparison of Real and Synthetic Outcomes
00:20:58 - The Role of Data in Impact Assessment
00:21:31 - Discussion on the Synthetic Control Method Paper
00:22:30 - David Schoch's Contributions to the Research
00:25:05 - Weighting in Synthetic Control Methodology
00:26:32 - Eliminating Uncertainty in Climate Finance
00:28:13 - Linking Methodologies to Improved Forest Management
00:30:59 - Data Sufficiency and Methodology Applicability
00:31:39 - Engaging Small Landowners in Carbon Markets
00:33:43 - The Role of the U.S. Forest Service Data
00:35:41 - Public Consultation and Methodology Development
00:36:09 - Interventions for Improved Forest Management
00:38:36 - Risk Sharing in Carbon Credit Projects
00:40:56 - The Importance of Monitoring and Feedback
00:42:05 - Evolution of the Family Forest Carbon Program
00:50:07 - Challenges in Data Collection and Stakeholder Engagement"Bionic Planet is the longest-running program in any medium devoted to navigating the Anthropocene, the new epoch defined by man's impact on Earth." - 00:00:10
"Football fans, like all sports fans, love arguing about who is better and who's just lucky." - 00:01:25
"Different people, different circumstances. And how do you tell who's better?" - 00:06:04
"We can restore it. Make it better, greener, more resilient, more sustainable. But how?" - 00:08:09
"Dynamic baselines adapt to shifting conditions and update more frequently." - 00:09:34
"The fundamental concept of synthetic controls is something we all use every day." - 00:16:52
"To see if an intervention works, you can synthetically model a control unit or an imaginary city where the variables are similar." - 00:16:09
"The ultimate goal in both cases is comparison." - 00:19:00
"It's not that the introduction of these methods eliminates uncertainty, but it did eliminate an important source of uncertainty and confounding." - 00:26:42
"There's always going to be a gap between a scenario that you model and what happens in real life, because no models are perfect." - 00:46:45
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Support Bionic Planet: https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
Recent updates from the Science-Based Targets initiative (SBTi) have pushed an old debate into public awareness, highlighting a perceived divide between emissions reductions and carbon removals. While SBTi's new guidelines focus on cutting emissions directly within company operations, some argue this creates a false dichotomy, downplaying the essential role of carbon removals in achieving net-zero goals. In reality, both strategies—reductions and removals—are not opposing forces but complementary tools needed to combat climate change effectively.
In Episode 69 of Bionic Planet, I spoke with Eli Mitchell-Larsen, a self-described "carbon removal evangelist," who provides valuable insights into the various types of carbon removal methods, including nature-based, hybrid, and engineered solutions. I'm rerunning this episode here today as episode 111.
The discussion begins with a focus on the importance of both reducing emissions now and removing existing gases from the atmosphere to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. The host and guest emphasize the need for a comprehensive approach that includes a mix of nature-based solutions, such as afforestation and soil carbon sequestration, as well as engineered technologies like direct air capture.
Throughout the episode, the host and guest explore the different categories of carbon removal, including biomass carbon removal and storage, geological storage, and unconventional methods like kelp farming. They highlight the importance of understanding the capture, utilization, and storage of carbon in evaluating the effectiveness and durability of each method.
The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of carbon removal technologies, with a focus on the need for continued research and development, government support, and deployment incentives to scale up promising solutions. The host and guest stress the urgency of accelerating the deployment of carbon removal strategies to address the escalating climate crisis.
Overall, the episode provides a comprehensive overview of the complexities and challenges of carbon removal and reduction efforts, emphasizing the need for a multifaceted approach to combatting climate change effectively. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the critical role of nature-based and engineered solutions in achieving a sustainable future.
TimestampsIntroduction to Nature-Based Climate Solutions
Discussion on the Importance of Carbon Removal
Different Types of Carbon Removal
Nature-Based Solutions and Soil Carbon Sequestration
Carbon Capture and Storage Technologies
Accelerating Deployment of Carbon Removal Technologies
Cost Considerations and Government Support for Research and Development
Quotes"The great tragedy of climate and biodiversity finance is that those who understand it most have their noses to the grindstone, while those who understand it least have their mouths to the megaphone." - 00:00:53-00:01:03
"The only thing we can all really agree on at this point is that to meet the climate challenge, we must eliminate those emissions that we can eliminate and then find ways to suck the rest out of the atmosphere, getting to net zero emissions by 2050 at the latest." - 00:02:52-00:03:03
"The fact that these tiny oscillations in the obliquity or the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit can kick into motion and then be magnified by the biological system and swing the climate into different states. It's just so fascinating. It's so powerful." - 00:10:48-00:10:58
"Earth. We broke it. We own it. And nothing is as it was. Not the trees. Not the seas. Not the forests, farms, or fields. And not the global economy that depends on all of these." - 00:06:07-00:06:18
"We know that the enemy is carbon and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it. And of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:05:56-00:06:07
"There's a group of us now who are proposing that the Earth has actually entered a new epoch, and that is the Anthropocene." - 00:05:56-00:06:07
"We can restore it. Make it better. Greener. More resilient. More sustainable. But how? Technology? Geoengineering? Are we doomed to live on a bionic planet? Or is nature herself the answer?" - 00:06:18-00:06:29
"The enemy is climate change and the we is the climate community. Those of us who've been in the trenches fighting this beast for decades in some cases." - 00:01:47-00:01:57
"I think carbon removal and storage, removing carbon and then storing it safely somewhere, it serves a couple purposes." - 00:12:51-00:13:01
"The more you do something, the more you build, the more the costs go down. And we've seen this happen with solar and wind." - 00:44:34-00:44:44
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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Support Bionic Planet:
https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
Guests:
Jim Pittman (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamespittman/)
Matt Orsagh (https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-orsagh-a1b8417/)
Steve Rocco (https://www.linkedin.com/in/steverocco/)
Books Referenced:
Ecological Economics (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77985.Ecological_Economics?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=ZDNVmbxl5B&rank=1)
The Limits to Growth (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/705418.Limits_to_Growth?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=1uh5jgBt1O&rank=1)
The Web of Life (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26155239-web-of-life)
Thinking in Systems (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3828902-thinking-in-systems?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=Q81KDn3a1D&rank=1)Energy and Civilization (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31850765-energy-and-civilization?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=pCNkYwiE3S&rank=1)
Sustainability is for Everyone (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19107270-sustainability-is-for-everyone?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=sX3sH8kdj5&rank=1)
Less is More (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53328332-less-is-more?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_12)
Donut Economics (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57410899-donut-economics?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_15)
Technical Revolutions in Financial Capital (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60509.Technological_Revolutions_and_Financial_Capital?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=TcwHjED9BR&rank=1)
The End of Nature (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/199359.The_End_of_Nature?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_17)
In Season 9, Episode 110 of Bionic Planet, titled "Ecological Economics, Systems Thinking, and the Limits to Growth," we delve into a thought-provoking discussion with ecological economists Jim Pittman, Matt Orsagh, and Steve Rocco. The episode explores the fundamental concepts of ecological economics, systems thinking, and the difference between overshoot and tipping points.
The conversation begins with a reflection on the limitations of using GDP as a measure of a nation's health, as highlighted by economist Simon Kuznets, the inventor of GDP. The guests emphasize the importance of rethinking economic health and well-being, shifting from a focus on GDP growth to a more holistic approach that includes human and planetary health.
The discussion then delves into the historical context of the environmental movement, referencing influential books like "The End of Nature" by Bill McKibben and "The Limits to Growth" published in 1972. The guests highlight the interconnectedness of human activities, climate change, biodiversity loss, and the urgent need to address these issues before reaching irreversible tipping points.
The conversation also touches on the concept of degrowth, which proposes an equitable downscaling of production and consumption to enhance human well-being and ecological conditions. The guests emphasize the importance of transitioning from individual self-interest to collective optimization, drawing parallels with the behavior of slime molds in response to scarcity.
The episode concludes with a call to action for reevaluating our current economic paradigm, shifting towards a more sustainable and equitable model that prioritizes health and well-being over GDP growth. The guests stress the urgency of addressing planetary boundaries, overshoot, and the impending tipping points that threaten the stability of our ecosystems.
Overall, the episode provides a thought-provoking exploration of ecological economics, systems thinking, and the imperative need for transformative change to ensure a sustainable future for humanity and the planet.
TimestampsIntroduction to Ecological Economics and Systems Thinking
Discussion on the Influence of Popular Books on Climate Change Awareness
Evolution of Climate Change Discourse and Scientific Consensus
Introduction to the Limits to Growth and Systems Modeling
Discussion on the Flaws of GDP as an Indicator of Success
Importance of Systems Thinking and Tipping Points
Degrowth as a Response to Overshoot and Tipping Points
Challenges and Opportunities in Transitioning to a Degrowth Paradigm
The Role of Slime Molds in Understanding Resource Allocation
The Urgency of Addressing Planetary Boundaries and Resource Scarcity
The Need for Collective Action and Policy Changes in the Face of Environmental Challenges
Reflections on the Evolution of Economic Thinking and the Path to Sustainable Development
Quotes"Goals for more growth should specify of what and for what." - 00:00:23-00:00:34
"It's the difference between knowing that your two packs a day could very well give you cancer and hearing the doctor clear his throat and say, 'I've got something to tell you.'" - 00:01:06-00:01:17
"Degrowth is just the end result there. It's not like we want that. It's just like you need it because you've got to go on a diet." - 00:06:24-00:06:34
"We know that the enemy is carbon and we know it's ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it. And of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:07:16-00:07:26
"Earth Overshoot Day from the Global Footprint Network using the ecological footprint methodology." - 00:44:29-00:44:40
"If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. And of course, it will stop. It's unsustainable." - 00:45:01-00:45:11
"We're using Earth as though we had 1.6 Earths to use. That's the consumption and the rate of resource use we're using." - 00:44:51-00:45:01
"Most of all, when proposing GDP as an indicator, Kuznets did not intend for it to be used in the way that we're using it now." - 00:46:21-00:46:32
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Support Bionic Planet: https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
In episode 109 of Bionic Planet, we learn how the Quilombola people of Brazil are blending the IPCC Livelihood Vulnerability Index Assessment with soil carbon methodologies developed under the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS) to save themselves and their soil from urban expansion and agricultural encroachment.
We begin with Sandra Pereira Braga, a descendant of enslaved peoples who has been farming on her family's land for almost 300 years. Sandra's story highlights the importance of recognizing and valuing the traditional practices and accumulated carbon stocks of these communities.
Our main guest is Vasco van Roosmalen, CEO of ReSeed, a startup focused on helping smallholder farmers access climate financing. Vasco discusses the innovative approach taken by ReSeed to support vulnerable farmers who are already practicing regenerative agriculture. By adapting methodologies like VM42 for soil carbon and utilizing the IPCC vulnerability assessments, ReSeed is helping farmers access the funding they need to maintain their existing carbon stocks and continue their sustainable practices.
We also delve back into the challenges of land tenure in Brazil, discussing the complexities of land titles and the implications for carbon projects. The recent Operation Greenwashing by Brazilian authorities targeting projects with fake land titles underscores the importance of ensuring legal ownership and sustainable management practices.
Overall, the episode sheds light on the critical role of smallholder farmers in climate action and the need for innovative approaches to support these communities in preserving their lands and traditional practices. Through initiatives like ReSeed, there is hope for empowering farmers to mitigate climate change and protect their livelihoods for future generations.
Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Regenerative Agriculture in Brazil
00:05:30 - Importance of Carbon Finance for Smallholder Farmers
00:10:00 - Challenges Faced by Quilombola Communities
00:15:00 - Role of Carbon Markets in Agriculture
00:20:00 - Methodologies for Assessing Vulnerability and Carbon Stocks
00:25:30 - Discussion on VM42 Soil Carbon Methodology
00:30:00 - Land Tenure Issues in Brazil
00:35:00 - Operation Greenwashing and Land Title Fraud
00:40:00 - Challenges of Land Titling and Timber Management
00:45:00 - Overlap of Illegal Land Titles and Carbon Projects
Quotes"My people have been on this land for 276 years." - 00:00:38-00:00:50
"Today's guest, Vasco van Roosmalen, is the CEO of a startup called ReSeed." - 00:02:58-00:03:08
"We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face, we should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:05:52-00:06:04
"Man may be unwittingly changing the world's climate through the waste products of his civilization." - 00:05:52-00:06:04
"We need to recognize what they have been doing for 300 years, the accumulating of that biomass in that soil and the protection of the agroforest that they have on their land." - 00:28:39-00:28:50
"It's a way to quantify actions that need to be taken to help that economic sector move from those high emissions to low emissions." - 00:14:56-00:15:06
"Smallholder farmers are among the most vulnerable to climate change. They're the front lines of climate change." - 00:16:10-00:16:21
"We need to really look at their ability to adapt." - 00:33:14-00:33:25
"It's a step process. First illegal land titles, then sustainable management, timber plans that weren't followed." - 00:45:10-00:45:21
"But it was all built on the very beginning of those illegal land titles." - 00:46:14-00:46:24
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Photo by Karol Stefański on Unsplash
Support me at patreon.com/bionicplanet
Related Links to Follow
In episode 108 of Bionic Planet, I delve into a recent article published by the Washington Post that is riddled with inaccuracies, false premises, and misleading information. The episode serves as a critical analysis of the article, highlighting the importance of fact-checking and the credibility of mainstream media in reporting on complex issues such as climate change and carbon finance.
The episode begins with a passionate rant about the Washington Post's story, titled "How Carbon Cowboys Are Cashing In on Protected Amazon Forest," which misrepresents the reality of carbon credits and their role in combating climate change. The host points out the flaws in the article's framing of the issue of nebulous land titles in the Brazilian Amazon and its failure to provide a nuanced understanding of the complexities involved.
Throughout the episode, the host emphasizes the difference between uncertainty and inaccuracy, drawing on examples from the article to illustrate the importance of distinguishing between the two. The host also references the concept of Gell-Mann amnesia, highlighting the tendency for readers to overlook inaccuracies in one area while trusting the same source on other topics.
The episode delves into the challenges of reporting on climate finance and the need for accurate and nuanced coverage in mainstream media. The host critiques the Washington Post's oversimplification of the issue of tangled land titles in Brazil and highlights the importance of understanding the nuances of carbon finance and climate solutions.
In conclusion, the host calls for a more informed and critical approach to reporting on climate issues, emphasizing the need for accuracy, accountability, and progress in media coverage. The episode ends with a call to support the podcast through Patreon and sponsorship opportunities, highlighting the importance of amplifying legitimate debates and challenging misinformation in the climate realm.
Overall, episode 108 of Bionic Planet offers a thought-provoking analysis of the Washington Post's misleading story, shedding light on the complexities of climate finance and the challenges of reporting on environmental issues in mainstream media.
Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Rant about Washington Post Article
Quotes
00:05:30 - Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect
00:11:30 - Critique of Washington Post's Misleading Claims
00:17:45 - Misrepresentation of Carbon Market
00:20:59 - Importance of Voluntary Carbon Market
00:23:10 - Criticism of The Guardian's Perspective
00:25:28 - Examination of World Rainforest Movement
00:29:12 - Issues with Independent Auditing Groups
00:30:14 - Conclusion and Call to Action"The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia." - 00:05:21-00:05:32
"We chase the immediate, the ephemeral, and ignore the seismic, the fundamental." - 00:18:37-00:18:48
"Let's not forget that we're here because we failed." - 00:20:59-00:21:10
"The fact is that many, and perhaps most, project developers were bleeding red ink for most of the past 15 years." - 00:17:45-00:17:55
"The Washington Post seriously overstates the prices that developers have received over the past 25 years." - 00:19:38-00:19:48
"The impetus for this Washington Post piece was a seriously flawed bit of blather called Neocolonialism in the Amazon, Red Projects in Portal, Brazil." - 00:24:46-00:24:57
"The problems with this Washington Post piece go on and on, but it also raises a few points that could be serious if they turn out to be true, and that's what's so frustrating." - 00:30:14-00:30:24
"Given the reporter's failure to get even basic premises right, and to insist on presenting an old, gray, intractable problem as a new, simple story complete with heroes and villains, I'm inclined to disbelieve those parts that seem to offer answers where I've only found questions." - 00:30:24-00:30:36
"I'm not here to balance negative stories with positive ones. I'm here to balance half-baked simplistic gibberish with contextualized complex truth." - 00:31:39-00:31:49
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Support Bionic Planet: https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
Books referenced in this episode:
"The Discovery of Global Warming" by Spencer Weart (Hypertext version): https://history.aip.org/climate/index.htm
"Lavoisier in the Year One" by Madison Smartt Bell: https://wwnorton.com/books/Lavoisier-in-the-Year-One/
"The Life and Letters of Joseph Black, M. D." by William Ramsay (Hypertext version): https://archive.org/details/lifelettersofjos00ramsrich/page/n5/mode/2up
In this episode of Bionic Planet, we delve into the history of the science underpinning Nature-based Climate Solutions (NbCS), beginning in the 1620s, in the Flemish village of Vilvoorde.
The episode kicks off with the story of Jan Baptist van Helmont, a physician who conducted an experiment planting a five-pound baby willow tree in a 200-pound pot of soil, launching a sequence of events that solved the riddle of where trees come from, accelerated the Industrial Revolution that propelled us to our current state of ecological overshoot, and planted the seeds of our eventual salvation.
The narrative then takes us through the evolution of scientific thought, from the ancient Greek philosophers to the alchemists of the Middle Ages, and eventually to the pioneers of modern chemistry like Joseph Black and Antoine Lavoisier. We explore the concepts of phlogiston, fixed air, and the discovery of oxygen, shedding light on the gradual unraveling of the mysteries of the natural world.
The episode also highlights the contributions of individuals like Joseph Priestley and Jan Ingenhousz, who made key observations about the role of plants in purifying air and the process of photosynthesis. These discoveries laid the foundation for our understanding of how plants breathe in carbon dioxide and release oxygen, shaping our knowledge of the interconnectedness of ecosystems.
The episode wraps up with a brief segue into the concept of latent heat, as elucidated by Joseph Black, and its pivotal role in the development of steam engines. This technological advancement sparked the Industrial Revolution, which delivered previously unimaginable wealth to the world but pushed our planet to the brink of ecological collapse.
As the host, I aim to provide a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the historical milestones that have shaped our understanding of climate and biodiversity finance. By unraveling the untold story of the voluntary carbon market, I seek to dispel myths, challenge simplistic narratives, and foster a deeper appreciation for the complexities of environmental science.
Join me on this enlightening journey through the annals of scientific discovery, as we uncover the threads that connect past breakthroughs to present-day challenges and solutions. Together, we can gain a deeper insight into the intricate web of relationships that sustain life on our bionic planet. Thank you for tuning in to Bionic Planet, where we explore the past to illuminate the path forward.
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This episoed of Bionic Planet is technically an episode of Andrew Greely’s podcast, Smarter Markets, where I appeared as a guest to discuss my new vertical "The Tribes of the Climate Realm."
It’s not a series but a vertical, where episodes will drop intermittently over the remainder of the year and probably for years to come.
If you're sharing or referencing the show, please reference the original at https://www.smartermarketspod.com/carbon-frontiers-2024-episode-10-steve-zwick/
The discussion revolves around the historical context of the first generation of REDD projects and the media criticism they have encountered. Steve Zwick emphasizes the importance of understanding the different ideological factions within the climate community and the need to communicate the history and tribes within this realm to combat misinformation and cherry-picking.
Throughout the episode, Steve Zwick provides insights into the development of methodologies, the role of verification and validation bodies (VVBs), and the criticisms faced by projects like Cordillera Azul. He highlights the need for balanced evaluations and constructive critiques to drive progress in the voluntary carbon markets.
The conversation also touches on the challenges faced by journalists and market participants in accurately covering and communicating the complexities of carbon markets. Steve Zwick emphasizes the importance of thorough research, understanding uncertainty, and questioning preconceptions to provide accurate and insightful coverage of projects and methodologies.
Overall, the episode serves as a deep dive into the intricacies of voluntary carbon markets, shedding light on the evolution of methodologies, the role of VVBs, and the need for balanced and informed reporting in this complex and evolving landscape.
TimestampsIntroduction to the Podcast Episode: 00:00:00-00:00:10
Discussion on the New Vertical "The Tribes of the Climate Realm": 00:00:10-00:00:31
Introduction to Smarter Markets Podcast: 00:00:42-00:00:52
Exploring the Crisis of Information or Trust: 00:00:52-00:01:03
Sponsorship Message by Base Carbon: 00:01:03-00:01:14
Introduction to Carbon Frontiers 2024: 00:01:22-00:01:33
Guest Introduction - Steve Zwick: 00:01:34-00:01:44
Discussion on REDD Projects and Media Criticism: 00:01:44-00:01:55
Questioning the Focus on First Generation REDD+ Projects: 00:01:55-00:02:05
Exploring the Ideological Factions in the Climate Realm: 00:02:05-00:02:16
Importance of Understanding the History of Markets: 00:02:16-00:02:26
Benefits and Critiques of First Generation REDD+ Projects: 00:02:26-00:02:37
Discussion on Baselines in REDD+ Projects: 00:02:37-00:02:47
Criticism of Baselines and Media Misinterpretation: 00:02:47-00:02:57
Challenges in Estimating Baselines: 00:02:57-00:03:04
Critique of REDD+ Baselines and Media Interpretation: 00:03:04-00:03:14
Discussion on Verification and Validation Bodies (VVBs): 00:03:15-00:03:25
Role of VVBs in Auditing REDD+ Projects: 00:03:25-00:03:36
Addressing Weaknesses in VVBs: 00:03:36-00:03:46
Lessons from Credit Rating Agencies: 00:03:46-00:03:56
Addressing Issues with VVBs: 00:03:56-00:04:07
Evaluation of REDD+ Projects and Baselines: 00:04:07-00:04:18
Discussion on Cordillera Azul Project Criticism: 00:04:18-00:04:28
Critique of Cordillera Azul Project: 00:04:28-00:04:38
Analysis of Media Criticism on Cordillera Azul: 00:04:38-00:04:47
Evaluation of Project Achievements: 00:04:47-00:04:57
Exploring Misinterpretations in Project Critiques: 00:04:57-00:05:07
Discussion on Nikkei Asia's Critique: 00:05:07-00:05:17
Importance of Balanced Reporting: 00:05:17-00:05:27
Guidelines for Journalists Covering Climate Markets: 00:05:27-00:05:37
Quotes"We have to keep developing new methodologies, but we can't assume the old ones are bad... the old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18
"The whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:06-00:39:18
"It's not a one and done thing. Don't think you can drop in, do a piece that's accurate on this and be finished." - 00:44:17-00:44:30
"Don't think you can drop in, do a piece that's accurate on this and be finished." - 00:44:17-00:44:30
"We need to do a much better job of explaining... the history of these markets and the science that underpins them." - 00:42:54-00:43:04
"The old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18
"We have to acknowledge that the whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:18-00:39:29
"The whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:06-00:39:18
"We need to do a much better job of explaining... the history of these markets and the science that underpins them." - 00:42:54-00:43:04
"The old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18
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In this episode of Bionic Planet, we delve into the inspiring journey of Marco Cerezo, the director of Fundaeco, a conservation NGO based in Guatemala. Marco shares his lifelong dedication to nature conservation, sustainable community development, and the fight against climate change. He recounts his early experiences studying development economics and the pivotal moment in 1989 when he learned about climate change from NASA geophysicists, which fueled his passion for conservation.
Marco discusses the challenges faced by Fundaeco in its early days, relying on small grants and volunteers to support their conservation efforts. As the organization grew, they realized the limitations of traditional funding sources and turned to carbon finance as a sustainable solution. Through the creation of a REDD+ project in Caribbean Guatemala, Fundaeco engaged over 700 forest owners and 1,000 forest parcels to protect over 55,000 hectares of forest.
The episode highlights the meticulous process of securing free, prior, and informed consent from communities, educating them about carbon, and designing a transparent benefit-sharing mechanism. Marco emphasizes the importance of building trust with communities and ensuring that they directly benefit from the carbon revenues generated by the project.
Furthermore, Marco explains the methodology used to establish the baseline for the project, utilizing national forest cover maps and regional deforestation rates. He reflects on the long-term impact of REDD+ projects, with a time horizon of 30 years, providing financial sustainability and institutional strength to conservation efforts.
As the episode concludes, Marco underscores the critical role of REDD+ in biodiversity conservation and community development, urging for continuous improvement in standards and transparency. He envisions a future where local conservation NGOs and communities are empowered with carbon knowledge to mobilize capital at the scale needed to protect tropical rainforests.
Listeners are encouraged to support the production of more episodes by becoming patrons of Bionic Planet and leaving five-star reviews to help amplify the message of conservation and climate action. The episode closes with a call to unite in the collective effort to address the climate challenge and safeguard our planet for future generations.
TimestampsIntroduction to the Episode: 00:00:00-00:01:02
Transition to Carbon Finance: 00:01:02-00:02:37
Challenges of Implementing Carbon Finance: 00:02:37-00:03:21
Overview of the Project in Guatemala: 00:03:21-00:04:54
Discussion on Climate Change and Anthropocene: 00:04:54-00:05:26
Interview Introduction with Marco Cerezo: 00:05:26-00:06:06
Marco Cerezo's Early Conservation Work: 00:06:06-00:09:15
Funding Challenges and Transition to Carbon Finance: 00:09:15-00:11:36
Importance of Sustainable Landscapes: 00:11:36-00:13:46
Agroforestry and Sustainable Farming Practices: 00:13:46-00:14:53
Implementation of Carbon Finance in Guatemala: 00:15:05-00:17:39
Establishing Carbon Benefit and Methodologies: 00:17:39-00:19:52
Community Engagement and Benefit Sharing: 00:20:03-00:27:42
Long-Term Sustainability and Time Horizon: 00:34:26-00:35:39
Baseline Establishment and Methodologies: 00:36:01-00:37:46
Closing Remarks and Call to Action: 00:38:02-00:38:55
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In episode 104 of Bionic Planet, I delve into the intricacies of carbon finance with my guest, David Antonioli. We explore the concept of transformational finance, where carbon payments are used to catalyze sustainable practices that can eventually stand on their own. We discuss the limitations of the current additionality tool, which focuses on individual project assessments, and the need for a more holistic approach to drive long-term sector-wide transitions.
David Antonioli, with his extensive experience in climate change and carbon markets, shares insights on the need for a paradigm shift in carbon finance. He emphasizes the importance of designing the system to address what happens when carbon finance ends and the necessity of building a foundation for the future of sustainable practices.
We touch upon real-world examples, such as projects in Paraguay shifting from cattle ranching to sustainable timber harvesting, to illustrate the challenges of individual project assessments and the potential for sector-wide transformations. We discuss the need for thoughtful simplifications in research and understanding market dynamics to identify positive tipping points that can lead to sustainable transitions.
Furthermore, we highlight the positive list approach adopted by organizations like the Climate Action Reserve and the California Resources Board, which use standardized methods to define additional activities upfront. This approach streamlines the process and sets a clear path for achieving long-term sustainability goals.
Overall, the episode delves into the complexities of carbon finance, the importance of explicit transformational strategies, and the potential for sector-wide transitions to drive sustainable practices in the future.
Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Transformational Finance
00:05:30 - Challenges in Carbon Accounting
00:10:39 - Critique of Additionality Concept
00:14:39 - Importance of Holistic Understanding
00:17:27 - Need for Interlocking Solutions
00:20:36 - Overhauling Local Economies
00:23:15 - Implicit vs. Explicit Transformation
00:27:06 - Addressing Entrenched Interests
00:33:43 - Proposal for Sector-Wide Transformation
00:38:02 - Limitations of Current Additionality Tools
00:42:24 - Focus on Sector-Wide Transformation
00:45:06 - Procedures for Overhauling Local Economies
Quotes"We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:00:20
"Everything else is a bonus, a positive externality that critics of carbon finance choose to ignore." - 00:01:42
"We're missing the forest for the trees." - 00:14:15
"We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22
"We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32
"We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22
"We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32
"We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22
"We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32
"We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22
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In Episode 103 of Bionic Planet, titled "Purists, Pragmatists, and the Science-Based Targets Initiative," we delve into the complex world of emission reduction targets and the challenges companies face to reach net zero emissions by 2050. The episode explores the Science-Based Targets Initiative (SBTI), a program designed to assist companies in setting emission reduction targets aligned to achieve net zero emissions.
The episode begins by highlighting the significant increase in companies committing to SBTI since January 2023, with many not submitting their plans until January 2025. We learn about the distinction between purists and pragmatists in the climate realm. Purists advocate for the complete elimination of fossil fuels in value chains, while pragmatists emphasize the use of offsets to achieve emission reductions.
Guest speaker Jen Jenkins, Chief Science Officer at Rubicon Carbon, provides valuable insights into the challenges faced by companies in reducing emissions and the balance between pragmatism and purity. Jenkins discusses the importance of understanding a company's value chain, the complexities of emission reduction strategies, and the role of offsets in achieving carbon neutrality.
The episode delves into the debate surrounding the use of offsets in emission reduction strategies, focusing on the conflicting perspectives of purists and pragmatists. Jenkins emphasizes the need for flexibility and practicality in climate action, highlighting the importance of using the available tools to address the climate crisis effectively.
As the discussion unfolds, the episode touches on the need for clear guidelines and standards in emission reduction efforts, the role of the voluntary carbon market in conservation efforts, and the challenges of balancing purity with practicality in climate action. Jenkins and the host explore the complexities of achieving net zero emissions and the importance of finding a middle ground between purist ideals and pragmatic solutions.
The episode concludes with a call to action for companies to engage in emission reduction efforts, highlighting the significance of the voluntary carbon market in driving climate action. Jenkins' insights shed light on the complexities of emission reduction strategies and the importance of practical approaches in addressing the climate crisis.
Join us in exploring the dynamic landscape of emission reduction targets, the role of offsets in climate action, and the ongoing debate between purists and pragmatists in pursuing a sustainable future on Bionic Planet.
TimestampsIntroduction to SBTI: 00:00:09-00:00:19
Interface Carpets Case Study: 00:00:23-00:00:33
Dependence on Fossil Fuels: 00:01:22-00:01:32
Global Emission Reduction Targets: 00:01:43-00:02:04
Pragmatic Approach to Emission Reduction: 00:02:24-00:02:34
Scope 3 Emissions and SBTI Controversy: 00:02:45-00:03:07
Purists vs. Pragmatists: 00:03:36-00:03:48
Jen Jenkins Background and Role: 00:05:52-00:06:03
Transition to Private Sector: 00:07:39-00:07:50
Jenkins Equations and Carbon Stock Estimation: 00:09:56-00:10:07
Net Zero vs. Carbon Neutral: 00:11:23-00:11:34
Challenges in Emission Reduction Planning: 00:13:38-00:13:49
Renewable Energy Options: 00:16:47-00:16:57
Customized Emission Reduction Plan: 00:17:39-00:17:50
Carbon Neutrality by 2030: 00:18:18-00:18:28
Carbon Neutral vs. Net Zero: 00:32:18-00:32:29
Purity vs. Pragmatism in Climate Action: 00:36:24-00:36:34
Role of Voluntary Carbon Market: 00:38:33-00:38:43
Quotes"The purist approach would say, no, no, I need to hold everybody's feet to the fire and ensure that no matter how much it costs, ensure that these companies sort of suss out every single source of fossil fuel in their value chain and obliterate it immediately." - (00:03:48-00:03:58)
"But we can restore it, make it better, greener, more resilient, more sustainable. But how? Technology? Geoengineering? Are we doomed to live on a bionic planet, or is nature herself the answer?" - (00:04:50-00:05:00)
"The purists have just been better at communicating. Because pragmatism is about probabilities, uncertainties. Science itself is not about absolutes. It's about finding the concurrent views of most experts." - (00:36:34-00:36:45)
"We kind of need to use the tools we have, we need to address the problem with what we've got at hand. And I think that's a very pragmatic look at the problem." - (00:37:56-00:38:06)
"If you do take a purist view, especially in an environment in a market that is voluntary, you're not going to get the action you need." - (00:38:16-00:38:27)
"The atmosphere is well mixed, we need to reduce emissions globally." - (00:30:58-00:31:09)
"The voluntary carbon market right now in the near term is a fantastic way to help conserve those existing forests so that we retain both their carbon stocks and the important biodiversity." - (00:32:07-00:32:17)
"The U.S. government earlier this week made a strong show of support for the voluntary carbon market." - (00:34:30-00:34:40)
"We all want to get there. We're all motivated to get to net zero. But a pragmatic approach would say, look, if you're in an industry where the next least costly abatement action is going to cost you more than it would cost to purchase an offset, then you should go ahead and buy the offset." - (00:30:05-00:30:15)
"We need to reduce emissions globally. The purest approach would say, no, no, I need to hold everybody's feet to the fire and ensure that no matter how much it costs, ensure that these companies sort of suss out every single source of fossil fuel in their value chain and obliterate it immediately." - (00:31:20-00:31:33)
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In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Robert Gilmore Pontius, Jr., a geography professor at Clark University specializing in geographic information science. Dr. Pontius shared his expertise in computer simulation models of deforestation and the impact of land change on humans.
Dr. Pontius discussed his journey into the field of geography, highlighting his passion for mathematics and maps. He emphasized the importance of simplicity in modeling and the need to eliminate distractions to focus on the essence of the problem.
The conversation delved into the complexities of land change modeling, addressing the challenges of uncertainty and the balance between simplicity and complexity in predictive models. Dr. Pontius emphasized the importance of transparency in modeling and the need to acknowledge and learn from mistakes in scientific research.
The discussion also touched on the evolution of methodologies in land change modeling, with Dr. Pontius advocating for a continuous learning process and adaptation based on new scientific insights. He highlighted the importance of open communication and collaboration in maximizing learning and addressing challenges in the field.
Overall, the episode provided valuable insights into the world of geographic information science, emphasizing the need for continuous improvement, transparency, and open dialogue in scientific research and modeling practices. Dr. Pontius's expertise and passion for the subject shone through, making for an engaging and enlightening conversation.
"I do this because I enjoy it. And I feel completely comfortable with saying that, because if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to dedicate time to it." - 00:04:52-00:05:02
"What good scientists do, they learn from their mistakes, and they admit them, and they say what their motivation was at the time, and then they clarify it and present something better." - 00:12:49-00:13:00
"I wanted to give an example to the research community because I see variation even among professors in their motivations." - 00:13:00-00:13:12
"We're not in the business of trying to say that we've solved all the problems. That's not what good scientists do." - 00:14:51-00:15:01
"I'm not willing to take on a student unless that student is willing to tell me when they think I'm wrong." - 00:29:23-00:29:33
"Mathematicians are always trying to eliminate distractions, get to the essence of something, and make it as simple and transparent as possible." - 00:48:07-00:48:17
"It's trivial to choose to look at something in such detail that it's impossible to predict accurately. Easy to do." - 00:50:07-00:50:18
"If we're doing the same thing we were doing 30 years ago, it means either 30 years ago we were so brilliant that we knew everything, or if we're doing the same thing we were doing 30 years ago, that means we haven't learned anything in 30 years." - 00:55:18-00:55:28
"Learning is not guaranteed. Just look around the world today. I mean, things can go backward." - 00:55:29-00:55:39
"Is capitalism or communism good or bad? It depends how it's implemented. Is religion good or bad? It depends how it's implemented." - 00:56:55-00:57:05
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Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
Two weeks ago, climate pioneer Interface Inc announced they would become carbon-negative across all their operations by 2040, enabling them to move beyond the use of carbon credits.
Some people heralded this as a sign that the days of offsetting emissions are over, but that’s not exactly true – at least not yet.
Most companies aren't as far along on their climate journeys as Interface is, and we still need offsets to accelerate reductions in the next decade. The fact is a company's decision to offset or not depends on its unique circumstances.
In this episode of Bionic Planet, we delve into the remarkable journey of Interface, Inc., a flooring tile manufacturer that has been at the forefront of climate action since CEO Ray Anderson (pictured) the 1990s.
The episode explores how Interface's early efforts to offset emissions paved the way for their groundbreaking carbon-negative carpet line, which absorbs more greenhouse gas than it emits over its lifecycle.
We replay a 2021 interview with Buddy Hay, the industrial engineer who played a pivotal role in quantifying Interface's emissions, and we detail the company's transition to offsetting, the challenges they faced in measuring and reducing their carbon footprint, and the evolution of the voluntary carbon market, the role of verification and validation in offsetting, and the importance of natural climate solutions -- as well as how the company used offsets the right way: to reduce emissions in the present while developing technologies that enabled it to move beyond offsetting in the future.
Related Link: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/interface-making-carpets-cool/
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Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet
In Episode 100 of Bionic Planet, part of the Tribes of the Climate Realm vertical, we delve into the origins of the voluntary carbon market -- a story that has never been told before.
Today's show is the first of many offering a truer, completer, and more accurate glimpse into the origins of the Voluntary Carbon Market than you've probably ever heard before.
The episode draws on a 2022 discussion with environmental economists Marc Stuart and Mark Kenber, who were instrumental in creating the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS) in 2005 to meet two core objectives: first, to accelerate emission reductions in the wake of failed government policy and, second, to test new approaches to meeting the climate challenge.
We offer a brief history of climate negotiations leading up to 2005 and the exclusion of forest protection and sustainable farming from the Kyoto Protocol and the Marrakesh Accords. The discussion touches on the complexities of integrating these crucial elements into the market, emphasizing the importance of balancing environmental integrity with development-focused activities.
Join me, Steve Zwick, in this insightful journey through the history and evolution of the voluntary carbon market, as we strive to create a more sustainable future for our planet. Thank you for tuning in to Episode 100 of Bionic Planet.
Related Links
049 | Forests in the Paris Climate Agreement, Part 1: The Birth of Forest Carbon
https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/049-forests-in-the-paris-climate-agreement-part-1-the-birth-of-forest-carbon/064 | Race to Zero: Meet the Taskforce on Scaling Voluntary Carbon
https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/064-race-to-zero-meet-the-taskforce-on-scaling-voluntary-carbon/75 l Coverage of Climate Solutions Suffer the Same Fate as Coverage of Climate Science?
https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/75-l-coverage-of-climate-solutions-suffer-the-same-fate-as-coverage-of-climate-science/Timestamps
Introduction to the History of the Voluntary Carbon Market
The Origins of the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS)
The Role of Carbon Markets in Addressing Climate Change
The Failure of Governments to Address Climate Change
The Evolution of Voluntary Carbon Standards
The Importance of Ending Deforestation
The Emergence of Voluntary Carbon Markets in the 1980s
The Kyoto Protocol and the Clean Development Mechanism (CDM)
The Exclusion of Forest Protection from the Kyoto Protocol
The Creation of the Voluntary Carbon Standard (VCS)
Challenges in Implementing Standards for Forest Protection
The Need for Unified Rules in Carbon Markets
The Involvement of NGOs, Businesses, and Organizations in Developing Standards
The Controversy Surrounding Inclusion of Forest Conservation
The Importance of Addressing Permanence and Fungibility
The Collaboration Between NGOs and Businesses in Developing Standards
The Importance of Including Forest Conservation in Carbon Markets
The Role of NGOs in Advocating for Inclusion of Forest Conservation
The Significance of Learning from Past Lessons
Call to Action for Support and Sponsorship
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Support Bionic Planet at patreon.com/bionicplanet
In Episode 99 of Bionic Planet, recorded in Mombasa, Kenya, the focus is on the efforts to revive the coastal mangrove forests that protect the seaside city and support its fishing sector. The episode features guests from the community-based organization, Big Ship, who have been working on mangrove conservation for 15 years.
The episode delves into the challenges faced in persuading communities to understand the importance of conserving mangroves and the innovative financing mechanisms used by Big Ship to fund their restoration efforts. The guests discuss the crucial role mangroves play in carbon sequestration, coastal protection, and supporting marine life.
The conversation highlights the Adopt-a-Site model employed by Big Ship, where degraded mangrove areas are identified, restored, and monitored over time. The guests emphasize the importance of engaging with the community, government institutions, and partners to ensure the sustainability of mangrove restoration projects.
The episode also explores the impact of youth involvement in mangrove conservation and the promotion of ecotourism as a sustainable income source for coastal communities. The guests share their experiences with the VIM program, which focuses on career mentorship and skill development for the youth.
Overall, the episode showcases the multi-faceted approach taken by Big Ship to address the challenges of mangrove conservation, promote community engagement, and create alternative livelihoods for coastal residents. The guests' insights shed light on the importance of cultural preservation, environmental awareness, and long-term sustainability in mangrove restoration efforts.
Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast by leaving a five-star review and considering becoming a patron to help fund future episodes that aim to educate and inspire action in climate and biodiversity conservation finance.
Timestamps
In Episode 99 of Bionic Planet, recorded in Mombasa, Kenya, the focus is on the efforts to revive the coastal mangrove forests that protect the seaside city and support its fishing sector. The episode features guests from the community-based organization, Big Ship, who have been working on mangrove conservation for 15 years.
The episode delves into the challenges faced in persuading communities to understand the importance of conserving mangroves and the innovative financing mechanisms used by Big Ship to fund their restoration efforts. The guests discuss the crucial role mangroves play in carbon sequestration, coastal protection, and supporting marine life.
The conversation highlights the Adopt-a-Site model employed by Big Ship, where degraded mangrove areas are identified, restored, and monitored over time. The guests emphasize the importance of engaging with the community, government institutions, and partners to ensure the sustainability of mangrove restoration projects.
The episode also explores the impact of youth involvement in mangrove conservation and the promotion of ecotourism as a sustainable income source for coastal communities. The guests share their experiences with the VIM program, which focuses on career mentorship and skill development for the youth.
Overall, the episode showcases the multi-faceted approach taken by Big Ship to address the challenges of mangrove conservation, promote community engagement, and create alternative livelihoods for coastal residents. The guests' insights shed light on the importance of cultural preservation, environmental awareness, and long-term sustainability in mangrove restoration efforts.
Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Big Ship Organization in Mombasa, Kenya
00:05:30 - Overview of Big Ship's Thematic Areas and Programs
00:10:27 - The Adopt-a-Site Model for Mangrove Restoration
00:15:01 - The Impact of the VIM Program on Youth Participants
00:21:09 - Discussion on Carbon Finance and Alternative Financing Mechanisms
00:25:24 - Challenges Faced in Spreading Awareness and Engaging Communities
00:29:07 - Youth Awareness and Engagement in Mangrove Conservation
00:32:45 - Community Entry Strategy for Restoration Efforts
00:36:51 - Project Areas and Viability of Investments
00:37:48 - Youth Training and Ecotourism Program Promotion
00:40:13 - Cultural Adaptation and Appreciation in Coastal Communities
00:40:42 - Closing Remarks and Call to Action
Quotes
"You want to protect that ecosystem. So you keep on pushing and pushing until it comes into their senses and they get to realize they need to conserve." - 00:00:35
"We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:01:29
"Mangroves shield the coast from storms and erosion, provide habitat for baby fish, and pull carbon dioxide from the atmosphere at a rate about 10 times higher per hectare than terrestrial forests do." - 00:01:57
"But you quickly realized that the cost of even conservative harvesting, in terms of reduced protection, increased erosion, and plummeting fish stocks, not to mention climate impacts, dwarfed any income that people could get from timber sales." - 00:03:23
"We are trying to tap into new areas. We also have a program that focuses on ecotourism. We want to venture into that." - 00:07:32
"The investors are the partners who adopted sites. Like corporate? Even individual." - 00:12:51
"It's not really about being philanthropic, but just being reality, to be alive to the fact that conservation is a process." - 00:13:24
"We are not interested in those huge chunks of plants for restoration. If the size of this room, which you can adopt, is enough to facilitate sustainability into the ecosystem, then let's apply it." - 00:24:03
"The finance will come. That's what I keep telling myself about this show." - 00:27:17
"You want to protect that ecosystem. So you keep on pushing and pushing until it comes into their senses and they get to realize they need to conserve." - 00:32:55
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Today we’re going to try and help you understand one of the most vexing components of the climate challenge — namely, the overlapping, interlinking, and contradictory land titles that determine control of so many tropical forests — in this case, the Amazon, the lungs of the planet.
With no clarity over control and no realistic way of enforcing it, there’s no way to sustainably manage and protect this massive bulwark against climate change.
Today’s episode centers around a few individuals, most notably a Japan-born physician named Jonas Morioka, who migrated to Brazil in the 1980s, purchased timberland in the 1990s, pivoted to conservation in the 2000s, and is now embroiled in a title fight over a transaction that may or may not have taken place a century ago.
His story is far from unique, and it shows how easy it is to chop the forest, how difficult it is to save it, and how tenure disputes make it even more difficult to leverage carbon finance for the common good.
My guests are Vinny Maffei and Olivier LeJune of Quantum Commodity Intelligence. We collaborated in a recent story they ran called “How a decree created a REDD old mess in Brazil, and the new effort to fix it,” which you can read here:
https://www.qcintel.com/carbon/article/long-read-how-a-decree-created-a-redd-old-mess-in-brazil-and-the-new-effort-to-fix-it-23409.html
Quotes
"To meet the climate challenge, we must save the Amazon." - 00:02:38-00:02:49
"Decades of research have shown that you reduce deforestation in part by reducing poverty, and you reduce poverty in part by giving people an incentive to manage land sustainably." - 00:04:23-00:04:34
"Brazil is very famous for having a lot of large properties owned by just a few people. It's a very unequal country." - 00:19:33-00:19:44
"Forest conservation starts with the people in and around the forest." - 00:28:16-00:28:26
"Deforestation isn't a puzzle book with answers in the back. It's a wicked problem with no simple solution." - 00:30:24-00:30:36
"There are groups out there that are devoted to going in and finding things wrong." - 00:45:01-00:45:12
"There's a lot of interest around REDD+, amongst the media and other actors." - 00:46:39-00:46:49
Timestamps
00:00:00 - Introduction to the Climate Challenge
00:05:30 - Introduction of Michael Greene and Initial Impressions
00:10:12 - Overview of Land Titles in Para, Brazil
00:14:06 - Discussion on Pará State and Porto Region
00:18:29 - Jonas Morioka's Land Purchases and Legal Issues
00:21:48 - Land Ownership and Settlements
00:25:52 - Legal Disputes and Involvement of Public Defender
00:30:03 - Discussion on Indigenous and Environmental Groups
00:32:27 - Arguments Regarding Land Rights and Conservation Efforts
00:37:00 - Negotiations with ITERPA and School Construction
00:41:21 - Financial Aspects and Legal Agreements
00:43:10 - Status of School Construction and Legal Challenges
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Photo courtesey of HH58 - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=70303656
This episode of Bionic Planet is entitled "The Mosaic, the Minefield, and a Manifesto."
The "Mosaic" reminds us that there is no single solution to the climate challenge. Instead, we have a mosaic of interlocking solutions that fit together like a clock. Carbon finance is just one part of it, and it's one of the few parts that have worked well, albeit imperfectly.
The "Minefield" reminds us that the mosaic of solutions sits in an ideological minefield, and you never know if you’re going to trigger an explosion.
The "Manifesto" is my promise to leverage my 20 years of experience in environmental finance to give you a truer, more nuanced, and complete understanding of the climate and biodiversity landscapes than you’ll get anyplace else.
The New Vertical
This episode is part of a new vertical called "the Tribes of the Climate Realm" to reflect the fact that the climate community is a disunited hodgepodge of tribes who occasionally unite against a common enemy, but who are divided by ideological and sectarian differences that sometimes erupt into something akin to civil war. Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes are usually the most colorful, despite having the least to offer. That's led to a dangerous disconnect between the real debates taking place inside the climate realm and the public discourse unfolding outside of it.
I initially started to call this vertical "Unmasking the Anti-REDD Crusade," because there is a very high-profile anti-REDD crusade, but I felt that frame was too narrow and dismissive of legitimate challenges, philosophical disputes, and areas where reasonable people can disagree.
It's part of a new vertical that I'm calling "The Tribes of the Climate Realm" to reflect the fact that the climate community is not a monolithic entity but is, instead, something like a disunified realm spread across thousands of contested miles of mountains, plains, and forests, with competing tribes and factions and all the different perspectives, agendas, and intrigue that come with it.
The Tribes of the Climate Realm may occasionally unite against a common enemy –- climate change –- but they're divided by ideological and sectarian differences that sometimes erupt into something akin to civil war.
Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes usually have the least to offer but are also the most colorful, so they win the hearts and minds of outsiders drawn to bright, shiny objects –- which is to say, most of us who've ignored the Climate Realm and its internecine battles until recently -- despite the fact that the realm and its battles have been very public since the United Nations' First World Climate Conference in 1979.
Related Links
Will Coverage of Climate Solutions Suffer the Same Fate as Coverage of Climate Science
Six Lessons from the History of Natural Climate Solutions
Where Does Healthy Critique End and Cynical Denial Begin?
Timestamps
00:00:00 - Introduction to the Tribes of the Climate Realm
00:04:10 - Introduction to Enhanced Weathering as a Solution
00:05:03 - Historical Background of Enhanced Weathering
00:06:29 - Debate Over Enhanced Weathering Methodologies
00:07:10 - Purpose of the Voluntary Carbon Market
00:08:03 - Mark Kenber's Perspective on Climate Efforts
00:09:21 - Marc Stewart's Contribution to Forest Carbon Protocol
00:09:55 - Media Misrepresentation of Carbon Markets
00:10:39 - Challenges Faced by the Verified Carbon Standard
00:12:14 - Importance of Accurate Storytelling in Climate Discourse
00:13:09 - Call for Sponsorship and Support for Bionic Planet
00:14:23 - Emphasizing the Complexity of Climate Solutions
00:16:30 - Contrasting Narratives in the Climate Realm
00:17:44 - Manifesto for Honest and Nuanced Climate Reporting
00:19:08 - Exploration of VCS Genesis and Carbon Projects
00:20:01 - Conclusion and Call to Action
Quotes
• 00:00:31-00:00:42 "Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes are usually the most colorful, despite having the least to offer."
• 00:01:18-00:01:29 "We need to elevate the public discourse. But that doesn't mean replacing anti-market propaganda with pro-market propaganda, although it does mean purging the bunk that's out there already."
• 00:04:10-00:04:20 "I smelled more than money in his mail. I smelled a rat."
• 00:05:03-00:05:14 "In rocks, it happens over millions of years, while in trees, it happens over decades."
• 00:07:42-00:07:53 "Let's not forget that we're here because we failed."
• 00:16:30-00:16:40 "The first native has an easier story to tell, but the second one has a truer story to tell." -
Tim Mohin wrote “Changing Business from the Inside Out: A Tree-Hugger’s Guide to Working in Corporations” back in 2012, after three decades in sustainability — first in government, with the US Environmental Protection Agency, and then at companies like Intel, where he served as director of sustainable development. He went on to head the Global Reporting Initiative, which administers the GRI standards for sustainability. He recently helped launmch ESG data provider Persefoni and hosts his own podcast, “Sustainability Decoded with Tim and Caitlin.” We look back on 40 years of sustaiability finance and ahead to the future of Environmental, Social, and corporate Governance (ESG) reporting — its potential for driving real change, its prospects for employment, and its inherent limitations.
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Remembering the Surui Forest Carbon Project, which was the first indigenous-led REDD project, plus:
A conversation with Geoffry Mwangi Wambungu, Chief Research Scientist at the Kasigau REDD Project in Kenya.
He explains what social scientists mean by “theory of change,” and tells us why he believes the term “co-benefits” is a misnomer in natural climate solutions.
Further reading on the Surui Carbon Project here: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/story-surui-forest-carbon-project/
Full Transcript (non-scripted portions translated by AI)
CO-BENEFITS VS CORE BENEFITS, WITH GEOFFREY MWANGI
Bionic Planet, Season 9, Episode 95
OPENING HOOK
STEVE ZWICK
Almir Surui was ten years old when the first logging truck came to his tiny village deep in the Amazon Forest.
It came to chop a single stand of centuries-old mahoganies, and it came with the grudging approval of the chiefs.
After all, they reasoned, it was just one truck, one stand, one time, and for a good cause.
The chiefs weren’t the grizzled old men you probably imagine. Most were barely into their 30s, because more than 90 percent of everyone had died in the five years before Almir was born in 1974.
Ninety Percent.
Gone.
They lost their mothers, their brothers, their sisters, and their lovers.
They lost almost everyone who knew anything about governance.
The surviving chiefs, shamans, and elders lost faith in their own abilities to serve their people, because their time-tested traditions had failed.
Prior to 1969, Brazilian authorities categorized Almir’s people as an “UNCONTACTED” tribe of the Amazon, but in reality, they HAD contact — SOMETIMES peaceful but MOSTLY violent contact — with neighboring tribes, rubber tappers, and even Brazilian explorers going back decades.
One of those neighboring tribes called Almir’s people the “Surui,” but Almir’s people called themselves the Paiter.
In the regional Tupi dialect, Surui means “enemy,” while Paiter means “real people.”
Due to a miscommunication, the Paiter were entered into the lexicon of indigenous people as “Surui” in the leadup to First Contact, which took place on October 7 1969.
Today, their name is hyphenated: Paiter-Surui.
The Paiter-Surui had lived in harmony with the forest for centuries, but they didn’t live in harmony with those who invaded their territory.
And invasions increased dramatically in the years prior to First Contact, as Brazilian authorities encouraged westward migration into the forest.
It was a bloody period, and the Paiter-Surui held their own in combat, but they couldn’t hold their own against European diseases — such as smallpox, measles, and the flu.
That’s what got them in the end.
The elders died, and kids became chiefs. One of those kids was a 17-year-old named Itabira, who learned to navigate the OUTside world of Brazilian society as the world IN-which he’d grown up disintegrated
(Aside)
By the way, if you can’t find any of this online, it’s because it’s all original reporting, and my book hasn’t been published yet.
Anyway, Itabira realized early on that to save his people, he had to push the Paiter-Surui and their struggle into Brazilian awareness. To do that, he and other chiefs stopped fighting illegal loggers and started colluding with them to finance trips to Brasilia, the capital of Brazil.
Soon, they were chopping trees to feed their families and pay for medicine, and by the mid-1990s, they were known as the “logging Indians” — despised by environmentalists who saw them as traitors to the cause and riven internally by fights over how to manage their resources.
The Paiter-Surui broadly split into three factions:
one that embraced the destruction of the forest for commercial gain,
one that opposed that destruction,
and one — the largest of them all — that WANTED to save the forest but NEEDED to feed their families.
Almir was born in 1974 — five years after First Contact — and by the time I met him in the late aughts, he was leading the tribe’s anti-logging faction.
To save the forest INside his territory, he had to first persuade the OUTside world — meaning most of us — that his people — and ALL indigenous people — needed help, not condemnation, if they were to end deforestation.
That’s because far less than half of tropical deforestation comes from corporate clear-cutting and most comes from poor people acting out of desperation, not greed — as we’ve seen in this series focused on Kenya.
Illegal logging is something of a hybrid, because commercial entities are buying that illegally-harvested timber, and corrupt officials often turn a blind eye to it.
Plus, standing up to loggers is dangerous.
I can’t count the number of indigenous people who have been killed doing so, and loggers even put a price on Almir’s head shortly after I met him.
Almir put his life on the line to save his forest, and he eventually slashed deforestation by developing the first indigenous-led REDD project.
REDD, with two Ds, stands for Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and Degradation, and it usually works by helping forest people develop sustainable ways of making a living — such as beekeeping, agroforestry, and non-timber forest products.
The overwhelming majority of community members voted in favor of Almir’s REDD strategy, but it wasn’t universal. The logging faction opposed it, and the loggers ironically found powerful allies among the wackier elements of the environmental and social justice movements.
The Indigenist Missionary Council, or CIMI, for example, threw their support behind the illegal loggers who had put a $100,000 bounty on Almir’s head.
They launched a flagrant disinformation campaign that characterized the logging ban as a ban on traditional hunting and gathering, and they portrayed the head of the logging faction as the voice of the people despite the fact that his faction lost the vote.
The whole thing was bizarre to anyone who knew the truth, and that, fortunately, included most indigenous leaders across the region. The denounced CIMI, and I’ll link to my coverage of that in the show notes, but most media swallowed CIMI’s lies hook, line, and sinker.
Despite these efforts to sabotage it, the project succeeded in slowing deforestation — at least for a few years.
Then, some time around 2015, gold and diamonds were discovered in the territory, sparking a tsunamic of illegal invasions that tipped the balance in favor of CIMI and the loggers.
Deforestation surged, and the project is currently suspended as a result.
Opponents gleefully celebrated this tragedy and used it to validate their own ideological biases.
And what are those beliefs?
Here’s what CIMI says:
“The environment, and the cultures living in harmony with it, should be the basis for human development and societies; not an item of the market economy.”
Greenpeace also opposes REDD, and here is their justification:
“One must question the motive for this ongoing reliance on market-based mechanisms, the very system that has led humanity to what is now a point of systems collapse.”
Now, we all agree that climate change is a result of the greatest market failure in human history — one that values a dead forest more than a living one — and I created Bionic Planet to unpack ALL the efforts to correct that failure — not just to go on and on about REDD all the time.
I keep coming back to REDD because the torrent of disinformation spewing onto the pages of certain newspapers is making it impossible to have a rational public discussion on the subject, and forests are dying as a result.
There is an incredibly rigorous and DECADES-LONG DEBATE over how best to fix this mess, and my goal with Bionic Planet is to mainstream that legitimate debate, so you can see what’s true, what’s false, and where reasonable people can disagree.
Everyone should be free to express their views, but no one is allowed to support their beliefs with opinions disguised as findings, or with half-truths, innuendo, and facts that are cherry-picked, decontextualized, and distorted — which is what CIMI, Greenpeace, and a lot of those opposed to market mechanisms and the whole ESG movement do — as I pointed out in Episode 77.
I mention all this because I ran into Almir at year-end climate talks in Dubai, and he’s still fighting for his people’s forest and still arguing — rightly — that we ALL need to support people on the front line of the climate challenge. Finance is how we do that.
I’ll link to stuff I’ve written about the Paiter-Surui in the show notes, but for now, the main thing to keep in mind as you listen to today’s show is that all these efforts involve real people in real communities facing real challenges that need our help.
That gets lost in a lot of the abstract discussions and technical terms we throw around — such as, for example, our tendency to differentiate between CLIMATE benefits and CO-benefits.
Climate benefits are the reductions or removals of greenhouse gasses, while co-benefits are the social, economic, and biodiversity impacts.
In the Surui project, the co-benefits are things like…
support for sustainable livelihoods in an indigenous community,
the promotion of gender equality through support for women-run enterprises, and
the restoration of habitat for rare and endangered species, among other things.
But the term “co-benefits” is a misnomer, because these activities make the emission reduction possible — whether you’re talking about stand-alone projects or the new jurisdictional initiatives that I’ll be covering more of in Season 9.
Today’s guest, Geoffrey Mwangi Wambugu, is the lead research scientist at the Kasigau Corridor REDD project, and we sat down to discuss the project’s theory of change — another of those buzzwords that leaves people cold. In the midst of our discussion, he said something profound.
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
In our theory of change document, we actually do recognize what you are calling co-benefits, “c-o” as core benefits, “c-o-r-e.”
STEVE ZWICK
So, it’s not co-benefits, it’s core benefits.
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
Core benefits. Particularly for a project like ours. These benefits are increasingly being recognized as core and essential to achieving the climate objectives.
OPENER
MUSIC BED
STEVE ZWICK
Earth! We Broke it, we own it, and nothing is as it was. Not the trees, not the seas, not the forests, farms or fields, and not the global economy that depends on all of these. But we can restore it — make it better, greener, more resilient, more sustainable.
But how?
Technology?
Geoengineering?
Are We doomed to live on a bionic planet, or is nature herself the answer?
That’s the question we address in every episode of Bionic Planet, a podcast of the Anthropocene, the new epoch defined by human impact on Earth, and today we examine it through the eyes of Geoffrey Mwangi Wambugu, lead research scientist for the Kasigau Corridor REDD project — the very first project to earn credits for saving endangered forests under the Verified Carbon Standard.
This project is important for several reasons.
To begin with, it’s not just the first REDD PROJECT certified under the Verified Carbon Standard.
It spearheaded the very first REDD METHODOLOGY generated under the standard.
It also faces an uncertain future, because Verra RETIRED that methodology last year in favor of one that’s less subjective.
METHODOLOGIES, as we learned in Episode 81, are like recipes for mixing existing tools to create a new project.
Methodologies are built with the best available science, and they’re designed to update over time as realities change and science advances.
Under the new methodology, which, again, we’ll explore as the season unfolds, this project will get less credit for reducing deforestation, but it’s also not getting credit for activities like the ones we learned about in Episode 90.
That’s when we met George Thumbi.
This same carbon project pays for the tree nursery he runs and the training he conducts, but it gets no credit for the carbon those activities capture — for reasons we’ll touch on today.
As this series unfolds, you’ll see the question isn’t whether the project is or isn’t having a positive impact.
It clearly is.
The question is how big that impact is.
We’ll pick that up later today and expand on it in later episodes, but first to Jeff.
INTERVIEW
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
My name is Geoffrey Mwangi Wambugu. I’m the senior research scientist at the Kasigau Corridor REDD Project. Under me, I have a social scientist and a biodiversity scientist and two data clerks. I did my undergraduate degree in wildlife ecology from Moi University here in Kenya.
And uh, then I did a master’s in environmental planning and management also here in
Mm-hmm.
My PhD is also in environmental planning, and management, focusing on the impacts of humans on terrestrial ecosystems. I also hold the post-doc, fellowship with the Smithsonian Institution.
It’s based Atala Research Center in Nanyuki that is the central part of Kenya. Uh, My specialty is anthropogenic impacts on ecosystems [00:01:00] both terrestrial and aquatic,
STEVE ZWICK
So, he spent his entire academic career studying the ways human activities impact forests, fields, rivers, lakes, and the creatures that live in them.
At first, he was more interested in which land management systems were friendliest to forests.
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
For undergraduate, I was looking at the impacts of eh, management systems on forests in the coast of Kenya.
So when, at that time, eh, the one that work best was those forests that were managed by the government, those ones that were managed by the community, they were not doing very well as a result of erosion of the, community values, traditional values, eh, traditional systems for managing forests.
STEVE ZWICK
This is something you find happening around the world.
Indigenous communities manage their land sustainably, with future generations in mind.
Then, something changes — in-migration, desperation, a combination of both — and the forests suffer, as does the climate.
For his PhD, Jeff expanded his research to include our impact on waters.
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
But for my PhD, I looked at uh, land use impacts on uh, rivers. Between different land-use systems.
Which one is associated with the best water quality? And I found out that, again, the most Christine ecosystems like forests had the best uh, water quality. Both for aquatic macroinvertebrates and also the physical chemical. Water quality.
STEVE ZWICK
This is another common theme. Remember David Okul from episode 86?
DAVID OKUL
The basis of life is actually in forestry. Most people say it’s water, but when you really think about it, most of what does this actually come from forestry. So it might be the chicken and egg thing, it starts, from forestry. then it goes to other biomes. and other systems
STEVE ZWICK
Now, if you’re an ecologist, you’re thinking, “Well, duh!”
This is pretty basic stuff.
Terrestrial systems interlink with aquatic systems, and human systems interlink with ecosystems.
It all blends together.
But way too many people miss or dismisses these interlinkages, which are critical to understanding how this all works.
Biological systems are different from social systems, and legal systems are different from economic systems.
They shouldn’t be, but they usually are, and the challenge isn’t just about forcing them into alignment — which can be like hammering square pegs into round holes — but rather about finding areas where they should naturally align and making it possible for that alignment to happen.
I’m hoping to unpack a lot of these technical issues this year, which is Season 9 of Bionic Planet.
If you like the show and want more and better episodes, you can help me deliver them by becoming a patron at patreon.com/bionicplanet. There you can support the show for as little as on dollar per episode and with a monthly cap.
By the same token, if you’re an ethical business looking to reach a global, climate-aware audience, you can sponsor the show by reaching out to me directly at [email protected]. That’s [email protected].
Finally, you can support the show by giving me an honest five-star review on whichever podcatcher you access me through. That helps because the more stars I get them ears I get, and the more ears I get, the more minds I can reach. And we must reach hundreds of millions of minds if we’re to meet the climate challenge.
We can do it if we all work together.
To summarize, after getting his PhD, Jeff started teaching. That’s where he learned about REDD and RDDD+
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
I was teaching Environmental science in a university before I came
I focused on the use of geographical information systems in management of natural resources. Mm-hmm. Particularly forests [00:07:00] and other ecosystems.
And I was also teaching a bit of environmental law.
Mm-hmm. Red plus was my favorite right.
Subject. And after about six or seven years of teaching in university, I needed something new.
So
I decided to come over here and
try something else.
Steve Zwick: Okay.
How do you measure the impact of human action on nature? What is there a way you can summarize that in a hundred
Jeff Mwangi: words?
Yeah. Okay. There are many ways of doing that. There is a wide range of methods that you can use to measure the impact of Humans on ecosystems.
One of my favorite ones is to check on uh, species diversity.
And usually you can compare a pristine habitat and one that has got some form of anthropogenic influence. More often than not, you find [00:08:00] that an ecosystem that has been disturbed has, eh, poor species diversity and this can be found also in our ecosystems
Steve Zwick: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Mwangi: There is one ecosystem that we’ve been measuring for the last 10 years, the mountain
So we have plots along the elevation gradient. And preliminary analysis of that ecosystem shows that areas that have
more disturbance
attributed
to poor species diversity. So that’s just one way of doing that. There are many other ways.
Steve Zwick: d And another issue that’s really interesting is you’re, you’re here to measure human impact, then you’re here to change human impact. Yeah. And that brings us to this issue of theory of change. Yes. What is the theory of change at work here?
Jeff Mwangi: Okay. Uh, A theory of change is [00:09:00] a hypothesis or a roadmap of how a project it intends to meet its objectives. For example, if you are coming from Chicago, to Caigo, you are going to take a taxi to the airport, then you take a flight to. Probably somewhere in Europe. Change your flight then fly to Nairobi, take a train,
More
or less, something like that.
A roadmap. It’s a plan of how you are going to achieve your objectives. But before you actually have that plan, you must have the objectives first. You must know what you want to achieve. So for a project like ours we have about three theories of
change. So we have the overarching theory of change which is based on the objectives of red plus
To conserve forests for the benefit of climate people [00:10:00] and biodiversity. That’s the overarching one. But then we have several other theories of change in our project, but for us, we only have two others.
One is the community theory of change, and then you have the biodiversity theory of
change. Mm-hmm.
So I’ll talk a bit about
each. For the community theory of change, before we start a project, we have to engage communities and really know what they want the project to achieve. So we engage our communities,
To understand what are the things that they want the project to achieve. So I’m sure you have heard about the location of carbon committees.
Steve Zwick: Yes.
Steve (2): We’ll learn about locational carbon committees, or LCCs, in later episodes, but the gist is they are locally-elected committees that engage [00:11:00] the carbon project and decide things like how the community spends its carbon income. Keep in mind, these are communities, not monolithic entities. They’re comprised of famers and pastorialists, Luyha and Maasai. They don’t all agree on every item they discuss.
Jeff Mwangi: In our theory of change, we believe that those are the best representatives of the
communities because they are drawn from the six project
locations.
They are elected in a way that’s fair and transparent. And uh, we believe that they are the real representatives of the communities. So these are the people that we engage
To understand what issues they would like the project to solve.
So we called them in our workshop in 2011,
And uh,
the workshop is designed to be highly consultative, ensure that every member of the LCC is participating. And [00:12:00] the first thing that we do is to create a vision statement
In that
workshop
Each LCC has five representatives and everyone is given a card.
They
are asked to write one thing that they would like the project to address. So everybody writes something. So at the end of that exercise, we have that five cards each having an issue that we want the project to
address. So the issues that are the same, we are lumped together and we use that to write statement.
Steve Zwick: Okay. And yeah. So it, it comes from the ground
It’s likeJeff Mwangi: from the ground up, yes. Okay. So, And uh, if somebody wrote two issues instead of four and they didn’t follow the rules, we put that card aside, we don’t throw it away. Because probably somebody had[00:13:00] two issues that they think are almost the same.
So we don’t throw it away. We put it aside and check whether it is similar with any of the other issues. Okay. And that vision statement that we craft from that exercise is displayed for the rest of the
workshop.
So that it serves as a reminder what
Steve Zwick: everyone sees it, everyone says, this is why we’re here.
Jeff Mwangi: Why we are here. Then after that, we count the number of cards Then after that, we rank the issues, so we know which are the most important issues. And we select five five with the highest frequency.
Because we can’t deal with all, with all of them.
Right. Right.
We prioritize five and those issues, we call them FO
issues. So we select five focal issues and then randomly redistribute the group, each one [00:14:00] to deal with one focal issue for the rest of the workshop.
So the five focal issues the next thing that we do is we do something that we call the without project scenario.
So there is, without project scenario, tells us how those communities are thinking about that particular issue and how it’ll change in the next five to 10 years. If we don’t have a project, and we allow them space to think about how they want to think about it, how they perceive it, how they see the issue, what are the key vis. And uh, once they do that, then uh, we redraw that in what we call the problem flow diagram.
We put it in a problem flow diagram showing that this issue originates from this thing. [00:15:00] So we are able to understand, eh, where the issue originates from. And how it’ll change over the next five to 10 years.
Steve Zwick: So you start with the objective, and then you go back and you map the causes, and then you try to say, okay, how do we, okay.
So once we do that, eh, the next thing that we do is we do with project
Mm.
Okay.
Jeff Mwangi: if we have a project what are the strategies that we will use to resolve the focal issues. So again, they go back and now using the problem through diagram, they first start by, if the focal issue was human wildlife
conflict, example.
Steve Zwick: Which came
up quite a lot in our conversation
Henry Kronk: too.
Jeff Mwangi: Yes. That is always one of our major focal
issue. If the focal issue was human wildlife conflict, which [00:16:00] we ask them to change it to sound more positive,
They’ll say something like, less human wildlife
Steve Zwick: So it’s an objective rather than Yeah.
Henry Kronk: Okay.
Jeff Mwangi: And then from the problem, from the diagram, then they can input the strategies that can be used to lead to less human wildlife conflict. So at the end of that exercise, what we have is the communities themselves have, are telling us, How can we resolve the human wildlife
Henry Kronk: conflict?
Jeff Mwangi: And it is from that diagram that you are able to draw the project
So if, eh, the issue, for example, if we go to human wildlife conflict, the issue could have been the wildlife comes out to look for
water.[00:17:00]
So
if wildlife had water in their natural areas, then there’ll be less human wildlife conflict.
So the project strategy automatically becomes, provide water the
Nedra.
So how do we provide water? We have. Eh, water tanks. We have, eh, dam scooping.
We have eh, boreholes, etcetera.
Steve Zwick: So that’s why you have these tanks out there. We saw these tanks. Like how do these tanks end up scattered all over the, it was, it came from this exercise.
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah. It came from that exercise water provision, for example. And it’s also water provision both inside and outside in the community
area. So that is automatically a project strategy, but then we ask ourselves, how can we be sure that we are achieving our objectives?
So we have to select [00:18:00] indicators and we have to collect data on that, in, on those indicators.
Steve (2): We’ll get to that later… I have indicators as well, NONE IS WHETHER i’M PAYING THE BILLS…
Jeff Mwangi: It’s a project strategy to deal with one of the focal issues, which was environmental degradation.
One way to deal with environmental degradation, particularly in the community areas, is to have a greenhouse that, is aimed at helping plant motor trees in the community
areas. Mm-hmm.
So it’s a direct project
strategy.
Coming directly from the theory of
change.
Steve Zwick: I get it. Now so the water tanks came from this the human wildlife interaction. How do we correct that, put water out there? The next one was degradation. How do we correct the degradation?
Go back and look and that again. That’s why even though the trees. Do enhance. Yeah. The carbon content of the landscape. That’s not their objective. Their objective is to meet the theory of change. Exactly.
Jeff Mwangi: Okay.
Then, [00:19:00] eh, how do we measure our impact with measure impact by selecting indicators and these indicators, we have two strategies.
The first strategy is called in-house reporting.
In-house reporting is during our day-to-day activities. We task them with collecting data. For example, one of the indicators we use is
bursaries. yeah. Bursaries to address a focal issue that was poor education. They wanted kids to be
more
Yeah. To access education. So bursaries. Automatically becomes one of the ways to
address that.
STEVE ZWICK
Again, education became a focal issue because the communities wanted it. As we learned in episodes 87 and 88, people were chopping trees to pay for college.
Bursaries — or scholarships — remove that need
I mentioned earlier the current methodology is being retired in favor of one that’s more standardized, while the ultimate objective is to move towards jurisdictional crediting.
I’m worried that this, combined with sloppy media coverage, will create so much confusion that people give up on conservation finance. If that happens, the people we’re meeting on Bionic Planet will end up suffering the most, and deforestation will resume.
I’m working on another episode that should clear some of that up — it looks at the origin of current methodologies under the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC.
Back in the 1990s, the IPCC identified several land-change models that accurately projected deforestation around the world. They found all of the models worked, but they didn’t all work the same in all circumstances. The world’s leading land-change scientists basically agreed that there will always be a degree of subjectivity in how models are selected and applied.
You’ll learn how they overcame that later in this season, season 9, but for now, let me just throw an analogy at you — the same one I made in episode 75: medicine. We don’t expect doctors to treat all patients and all diseases with the same medicine, but for some reason, people expect a simple model to emerge that accurately predicts deforestation in all forests under all circumstances.
That’s the mistake the Guardian made last year when it applied one poorly-calibrated, untested model to a bunch of projects and concluded the projects — and not the model or their application of it — were wrong.
It’s a silly conclusion that’s done a lot of damage, as you’ll see later in this season.
Another thing we’ll be looking at are efforts to capture more of the social and biodiversity benefits that Jeff is describing.
Verra, Gold Standard, and others are developing ways of quantifying gender equality and habitat improvement, while Wildlife Works is spearheading the creation of a whole new standard called “Equitable Earth,” together with my old employer, Forest Trends.
These aren’t just interesting ideas. People’s lives depend on our ability to measure and OUR WILLINGNESS TO PAY for the activities we’re learning about in this series.
I also rely on willingness to pay — your willingness to pay — for these shows.
If you like the show and want more and better episodes in Season 9, you can help me deliver them by becoming a patron at patreon.com/bionicplanet. There you can support the show for as little as on dollar per episode and with a monthly cap.
By the same token, if you’re an ethical business looking to reach a global, climate-aware audience, you can sponsor the show by reaching out to me directly at [email protected]. That’s [email protected].
Finally, you can support the show by giving me an honest five-star review on whichever podcatcher you access me through. That helps because the more stars I get them ears I get, and the more ears I get, the more minds I can reach. And we must reach hundreds of millions of minds if we’re to meet the climate challenge.
We can do it if we all work together.
Now back to Jeff Mwangi and the role of education in carbon finance.
GEOFFREY MWANGI WAMBUGU
The link becomes very clear [00:20:00] because if we have more educated society, then people can access jobs that are more
decent. And they’ll stop getting into the forest to cut down the treeS. eh, Where was I? I was on
Steve Zwick: how do we measure the impacts? And then Yeah. Then I,
Yeah.
Jeff Mwangi: So we have,
Steve Zwick: and bursaries as a measurement
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah. So we measure, we look at the number of students who get the
bursaries.
We look the amounts spent on bursaries. We look at the issue between guards and boys. We look at the classroom projects. The number of classrooms that we have supported Another
in-house report we get is from the greenhouse where you are. So every month.
we
get information from the greenhouse on how many trees have been propagated, how many have been bought from the community, how many have been planted[00:21:00] which species. We get all that information, what is the
survivor rate?
Once they outplant they measure how, what is the rate of survival? So we have an idea
Of effort versus impact.
Yeah.
Steve Zwick: I can see how this data would provide an indicator of success, but do you have any baselines like any, any, anything where you can say, this number means this, this, or, yeah.
Jeff Mwangi: Yes, indeed. So that is in-house reporting, but we also have another way of measuring our impact.
And this is called field work.
I mentioned earlier that we have two, eh, resident scientists. We have one social scientist and one by diversity
scientist.
These ones are tasked with implementing field work research that is designed in a way that is much more scientifically robust.
Such that that data can inform us on[00:22:00]
various
things that we need to know about.
One of them is called the household survey.
The household survey is done by annually.
Once every two
years.
The first one was done in 2011. And how we did this, we randomized in all the six project locations, each eh, project location, having 30 households. So we had our baseline survey in 2011, and the questionnaire is designed to look at the baseline scenario. And every two years we go back, we interview the same households. The intention is to follow these households until the end of the project.
Of course. You have. People coming in and others going And uh,
you find that we don’t have all the one eight[00:23:00] that we originally interviewed in the first household survey.
But
the large proportion of them is there.
So we are able to follow them.
And every two years we analyze this data. One of the questions that we ask is, what is the impact of the
project? And from the response we get, we can be able to gauge whether we are achieving our objectives.
Steve Zwick: And that’s just one of the many questions. So it’s something
Jeff Mwangi: yes. Yeah. That
Steve Zwick: It’s not, they’re sitting out there
Jeff Mwangi: yeah.
Yeah. It’s a huge it’s a huge uh, questionnaire. It takes two months to cover all the.
households And another two months to enter the data, another two months to produce the summary report.
And then in the following year, we do a follow up s b
workshop.
We go back to the community, we present those results ask them whether [00:24:00] they think that this is a true reflection of what they think.
And from that then we can always use adaptive management to redesign reify and change a few things, work a few things here and there to ensure that we align better and we have better results in the next iteration.
Steve Zwick: What kinds of um, adaptations have you had to make?
Jeff Mwangi: For example? One of the most difficult things to, to deal with in the theory of change is the problem of attribution.
Saying that you attribute
a certain intervention to a certain impact. It could be you, it could be somebody else, it could be something else that has changed, that has led to better impacts or not. So in one of the data sets we had that problem. We couldn’t really separate water [00:25:00] projects that are in schools and purely water projects. So you have to change the way you report it.
Such that instead of calling them water projects or school projects, you call them, eh, something else,
like
education projects. That way you have a better separation of, eh, even if it’s a water project that is in school, then you just call it an education
project.
Yeah.
Yeah. So those are things that we grapple a lot with, eh, separating eh information so that it’s more clear we
Yeah.
Steve Zwick: Have you changed your approach? Have you found sometimes something you thought would have an impact didn’t deliver or delivered a different impact? Have you altered your be, times. Yeah.
What’s a good example
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah. Let me see. One of, the good examples [00:26:00] is ranger patrols
In the region patrol dataset.
We also ask our rangers to collect any information that they find what we call high conservation
Henry Kronk: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Mwangi: you have these species which look similar.
So somebody cannot tell whether it was a Leo pad or a cheetah,
or
a SVO
So sometimes you have to tell them, just write it in your
mother tongue.
So they write the it in their mother tongue, and when uh, we come back, look at the data
Then we know what it was.
Yeah. So sometimes, eh, we do that sometimes, eh, you have the problem of, eh,
somebody
saw a herd of elephants and somebody else who was close by saw the same herd of elephants. So you [00:27:00] have uh, that being reported twice. So if you record it, then you You might get the problem of
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. So we came up with a method where you have a unique identifier, so you combine three things.
You combine the ranger team the gps and uh, the base station.
So that way you have a very unique identifier and eh, the risk of somebody reporting the same animal toys becomes
Yeah.
Steve Zwick: So you’re constantly revising the way you manage the reporting to make it more accurate.
Yes. Have you, in this process, found that your own interventions didn’t deliver the results you wanted, and you had to change what you did? Or have you just been dead on? Have you found that, oh my God, everything we did worked right?
Jeff Mwangi: Not that I’m aware of. Uh, most, of the interventions that we design [00:28:00] have actually been successful.
Oh, yeah.
Largely because we do take our time before we go for rotor.
So we take a lot of due diligence, eh, talk to people and ensure that, everything that we are doing,
Is, easy to understand.
But also with a level of scientific rigor and cost effective.
We don’t want to do something that’s sophisticated, then we do it two times, then we stopped. Because in our reporting, we are required to have data for the entire year
And for the project lifetime. So we want to be sure that once we have uh, a thing to report, we can report it
in a
way that’s easy to understand. And also in a way that’s cost effective. And even the way we store the data, [00:29:00] it’s in a way that can easily be stored.
Stephen Donofrio: The world we operate in on the other side, outside of the field is people call it climate benefits. And that’s the co2 and that’s we price and then co-benefits. And those are what gets certified you know, with ccb, SD Vista, whatever it is.
But the process you described is that the carbon benefits are not possible without considering the co-benefits first, and that the co-benefits are actually not co-benefits, they’re enablers of the climate benefits.
And so if you could, reflect on that for a second and actually reconsider the terminology that it’s not really co-benefits, but it’s, these are essential attributes. Of a successful climate project. That’s a, that’s red plus.
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah. That’s very good question. In our theory of change document, we actually do recognize what you are calling co-benefits, “c-o” as core benefits, “c-o-r-e”
Steve Zwick: so it’s not co-benefits, it’s core-benefits
Jeff Mwangi:Core benefits. Oh, Particularly for a project like ours. These benefits are increasingly being recognized as core and essential to achieving the climate objectives. This is uh, why we have to address all these other issues that are around the carbon fast because those issues are the ones that might lead to us having problems with the carbon stock. Yeah.
Stephen Donofrio: And I almost feel like the word co-benefits or even core
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah.
Stephen Donofrio: is underserving
Jeff Mwangi: Yes.
Stephen Donofrio: their. Their essential role. It’s like you can’t [00:31:00] drive a car Without having the frame. The engine, wheels, the axles, all those are the core essential components. Yeah. So thinking of it as core
Jeff Mwangi: Yes.
Stephen Donofrio: Yes Of a successful
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah.
Stephen Donofrio: Climate, positive red plus
Jeff Mwangi: Definitely. Yes.
Stephen Donofrio: Is how I’m hearing
Jeff Mwangi: you describe it. Yes, indeed. And uh, on your second part of the question is
the, we have the c, c, B as one of the standards, eh, that we use, and therefore we have to report not just the climate benefits.
We
also have to report the community benefits.
And the biodiversity benefits, which brings me to our biodiversity theory of change. Cause it’s a separate theory of change. Because biodiversity, you can’t involve communities mostly. You can
involve them A bit.
but you need [00:32:00] experts, people who are actually knowledgeable about the biodiversity of the area.
So we engage, eh, stakeholders in the biodiversity sector, call them again to a meeting, and we discuss issues that are of importance that we really need to think about to conserve the diversity. So we ask them the same
question.
what does it mean to you for the diversity of the area to be conserved? What are the things that we really need to look for? And so they give us things that they think we need to look for. And for biodiversity, we have for, we have habitat management. So ensuring that we have a vegetation cover, we have a safeguarding high conservation valley species. human wildlife conflict came again in the [00:33:00] biodiversity theory area of change.
And the last one was corridor maintenance.
Ensuring that the corridor between and waste remains open. And therefore, we also now come up with indicators for those as well. So that’s why we have H C V species, high conservation value species. The methods are also based on in-house reporting and field work.
In-house reporting, we are using ranger patrols to tell us what kind of biodiversity is out there because they are always in the field doing patrols and doing the walking and all that, the driving in the field. Then we have a framework in this theory of change that we call the precious state response model.
we have indicators that tell us. What the pressure looks like. So we might have indicators for example, things like population [00:34:00] growth things like a number of incidences recorded, maybe number of charco bags that were recorded et cetera. Then we have state indicators is reports on wildlife populations?
What are we seeing? Are we seeing elephants? Are we seeing wild dogs? Are we seeing lions that is state?
And then response indicators is what we are actually doing, to respond to this. So we record, for example, the patrol distance how many patrols were done in that month. How far or how many flights did the gyros, go around the, project area? And we also map those. We map the tracks. We map the patrols so that we are able to know, eh, the response, what response we are, and that all that, eh, tells us [00:35:00] what we need to do more. Do we need to do more on, eh the effort? Or do we need to do more on uh, the state for the pressure more often on than not for some indicators. It is beyond our scope. If we have population growth, that is not something that we can
control asa.
But
we do like to know about it so that we know how to also deal with these others.
Steve Zwick: And none of these indicators that you’ve talked about are actually in the reports, the auditors, right? This is all your internal checks, and how are we, progressing towards the ultimate goal?
Jeff Mwangi: Actually, many of these are in the monitoring reports. I think about half of the data that we collect goes into the monitoring reports.
The rest of it is for our own internal use. [00:36:00] As I mentioned before, we use adaptive management a lot. So we analyze this data Periodically to check to see where we need to put more effort and to check where we need to change things. Like for example one of the ones that we did recently was to look at the effect of wildlife on waterholes.
Remember we said that we are providing water in the waterholes, but it’s not always a good thing. Because wildlife will tend to congregate on this waterholes. And what happens is that the shrimping of vegetation, especially during the dry areas,
So we have to measure that impact.
So we, we have a group that measures uh, vegetation from the water hole as you move out.
Steve Zwick: But so you’re taking something that looks like a simple indicator, huh?
Yes. Number of animals around the water hall. Yeah. Success, yes. But no, that’s not really the case. It’s, it could mean, oh
[00:37:00] yeah, definitely. They’re trampling everything else
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah, Yeah,
Exactly. So it could be successful, on one side, but on the other
side. it has detrimental effect. So we check which ones are the most affected and sometimes we have to make some
interventions. I think Last month we closed some of the waterholes mm-hmm. to allow wildlife to go to waterholes that are less degraded. we, we use the data to make better decisions. And what we do every five years when we go to an S b A workshop, we review the focal issues. So we have done it once. Mm-hmm. Uh, So there was the original focal issues, which we reviewed in 2017. So they changed a bit. And now this year we are going to review them again [00:38:00] because five years have lapsed. So in June we are going to another SBA workshop and we will do the focal issues again.
So that uh, we ensure that we are still focusing on the things that are important to the community and that particular time. So fo issues change over time. Sometimes they become less important. Because of maybe something changed. They, maybe they found that this is no longer a focal issue, or maybe we have addressed this focal issue enough, so maybe we need to change it eh, after five years.
Jeff Mwangi: Being a wildlife
corridor that has communities around it. Uh, Striving to grow food in an environment where human wildlife conflict is a major issue. There’s always an issue that comes up.
One major, one big one now is the prolonged drought. It [00:39:00] was identified in the theory of change, but at that time rains were much more consistent, at least before are sure that every April and every October we get rain. But now when you have a scenario where now we, you don’t have rain for two years, then it becomes a bit.
Problematic. So we are thinking that this will be one of the major FO issues in the next review.
Periodically we have an influx of had us from other communities that come into the area. There’s usually problems also associated with them, so we usually have to. Go back and uh, check and see how best we can deal with this. Cause it’s not just a al problem, it’s a problem of the entire county and not just this county, even the [00:40:00] neighboring county. So we do have sometimes problems like those that we have to think about addressing in the short
term.
Steve Zwick: what’s fascinating here is you’ve got a theory of change. Yeah. You’ve Clear things that have worked in the past that you try to implement.
Yeah.
And then you’ve got things that you can’t foresee that you have to adapt to
it.
It all means you’ve got a classic wicked problem. Something that there really is no one single solution.
Yeah. There are people out there who say it’s too complicated. We shouldn’t use carbon finance to address it because it’s so complicated. We can’t really be sure of anything.
Yeah. And this is like listening to what you’re talking about and based on everything I’ve seen. Yeah. It’s complicated. Yeah. There’s
Yeah.
but the direction is clear
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah.
But
Steve Zwick: there are people who argue against carbon finance cuz what they’re saying is,
mm-hmm.
Yeah. All these great theories, everything looks great, but something’s always gonna happen. Something’s always gonna go wrong. And they [00:41:00] essentially argue we can’t use carbon finance to do it because of the uncertainties.
How would you address that concern or that argument? That argument
Jeff Mwangi: Yeah.
In our, one of our strategies, eh, we encourage adaptive management.
Eh, adaptive management is, eh, being formed by the data you are collecting. The circumstances that are at that particular, instance. And adapt accordingly. And as you have seen in our LCC model, the communities have the freedom to use their carbon finance as they wish.
As long as they are adhering to the standard operating procedures. So there’s that flexibility and there is that allowance for you to address things as they come. Because if you cast it too much on stone, you [00:42:00] might not address the things that you really need to address.
So if you don’t address uh, the root. cause
of a problem, then you might not be addressing the things that you really need to address. So we encourage that we use adaptive management informed by best practice and also adhere to standard. That way you always have room to address problems as they come.
STEVE ZWICK
Jeff Mwangi Wambugu wrapping up this edition of Bionic Planet.
If you like the show and want more and better episodes, you can help me deliver them by becoming a patron at patreon.com/bionicplanet. There you can support the show for as little as on dollar per episode and with a monthly cap.
By the same token, if you’re an ethical business looking to reach a global, climate-aware audience, you can sponsor the show by reaching out to me directly at [email protected]. That’s [email protected].
Finally, you can support the show by giving me an honest five-star review on whichever podcatcher you access me through. That helps because the more stars I get them ears I get, and the more ears I get, the more minds I can reach. And we must reach hundreds of millions of minds if we’re to meet the climate challenge.
We can do it if we all work together.
That wraps up today’s show. Until next time, I’m Steve Zwick in Nairobi. Thanks for listening.
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Dr. Zorodzai Maroveke -- AKA "Dr. Zoey" -- heads the Zimbabwe Industrial Hemp Trust, which is promoting the uptake of industrial hemp as a climate smart alternative to wood, cotton, and plastic.
Hemp, she explains, replenishes faster than wood, uses far less water than cotton, and has almost no waste.
Its ecological benefits are clear, and she hopes carbon finance can be used to overcome the financial challenges to scaling up.
Supplemental Reading: "Commodities at a Glance: Special Issue on Industrial Hemp"
https://www.mycannabis.com/cannabis-in-zimbabwe-conversation-with-dr-maroveke/
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Zimbabwean entrepreneur Chiyedza Heri runs the Ubuntu Alliance, a company that's helping farmers leverage carbon finance to shift to more sustainable forms of agriculture.
She's one of more than a dozen young Africans I met at year-end climate talks in Dubai (COP 28) -- a new breed of entrepreneur that the late Ghanian economist George Ayittey calls "cheetahs" because they're nimble, quick, and hungry.
Green Cheetahs pursue activities that are pro-nature as well as pro-growth, and today's guest certainly fits that bill.
- Visa fler
