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This episode Sam Meinke, Palm Beach Zoo, and podcast host, Shane Gorbett, discusses what it means to be a modern zookeeper. The definition of what a zookeeper is and does has drastically changed and is constantly evolving as we continue to progress animal care forward. Some other modern zookeepers were kind enough to share what being a modern zookeeper means to them so Sam and Shane dissect those answers as we redefine what it means to be a zookeeper. The discussion wraps up with the importance of redefining what a modern zookeeper is and does both for the knowledge of the public but also for those currently in the field or hoping to start their careers. Stay tuned in for Sam's "Training Tales" which involves a ground hornbill and a "long cheetah turd". For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Sam you can message him on Facebook or Instagram. Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
3:20 Introduction to Sam Meinke
4:40 Definition of a Zookeeper and redefining into a Modern Zookeeper
13:40 Using the past as a baseline to grow from and do better
20:20 A Modern Zookeeper…. Adapts to new information
22:50 Progressive, Use the artful application of scientific principles
23:45 Knows the individual animals
25:20 Creative, thinks outside the box for enriching the lives of animals
28:20 Responsible for providing each individual animal the best life possible
30:22 Creates a bond with the animals, knows each of their personalities
32:00 Eager to share their special connection with everyone
32:50 Strives to create positive connections in all interactions, changing the mindset from making to asking
36:46 Does research, looks to natural history of animals
38:15 Selfless, puts the animals’ needs above their own, open to feedback
39:20 Prioritizes behavioral management as a necessity
41:30 Focuses on animal wellbeing
43:10 Importance of redefining the modern zookeeper
45:40 Advice on changing the mindset of a team into striving to be modern zookeeprs
49:00 “Training Tales”
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This episode Rick Hester, Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and BehaviorWorks, discusses a free operant approach to behavior management. Rick starts with explaining the practical application of free operant behavior and, in order to get the full scope, also discusses discrete trial training and the relationship between the two. Breaking down some of the science, Rick educates about Lindsley's (1996) Four Free Operant Freedoms and the considerations for providing and maintaining a free operant environment (depletion, satiation, and dosage of resources). Rick finishes the episode with giving advice on how to start curating free operant environments by celebrating each approximation. Stay tuned in for a "dam" great "Training Tale" about creating a free operant environment for beavers using the sound of running water. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to contact Rick email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
6:40 Definition and application of “Free Operant”
10:05 Definition and application of Discrete Trial Training (DTT)
14:10 Connecting the dots between environmental enrichment and free operant principles
16:55 The Freedom to Present Stimuli
17:20 The Freedom to Repeat Responses Many Times to Each Signal
17:50 The Freedom to Form Responses
18:20 The Freedom to Slow or Speed Responses
19:15 Considerations for providing and maintaining a free operant environment
20:40 Resource Depletion
23:20 Satiation of Resources
24:50 Dosage of Resources
28:00 Advice for Getting Team Buy-In; Using Approximations
35:35 The balance between free operant and discrete trial training
39:50 “Training Tales”
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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This episode continues on "The Behaviors of..." series which dives into the human side of the animal care field. In this episode Scott Trauger, Natural Encounters, Inc., dives deeper into a discussion centered around his presentation at the 2024 ABMA Annual Conference titled "Expanding Our Feedback Loop: Evolving the Way that We Give Feedback to Our Peers". Scott discusses the different types of feedback and considerations to think about in order to effectively give specific and honest, but also kind, feedback. Scott also discusses the thought of also giving choice and... control to people while providing feedback. Stay tuned in for a "Training Tale" about how Scott used his tree climbing skills and relationship to rescue a pied crow. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Scott contact him on the ABMA Community or email [email protected] If you are an ABMA member you can watch Scott's presentation on animalprofessional.com Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:10 Introduction to Scott Trauger
6:05 “Expanding Our Feedback Loop: Evolving the Ways we Give Feedback to Our Peers”
7:55 Using the word “Feedback” vs “Criticism”
12:05 Different Types of Feedback
18:40 Importance of Individual Relationships
23:30 Being honest and specific but also kind
27:15 Reinforcing the behaviors/responses you want to see happen again
29:30 Recapping or following up after feedback
31:15 Starting with heart and the human, not evidence
35:10 Giving choice and… control to people
43:00 “Training Tales”
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This episode we are joined by Tegan Noel, San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, to discuss some practical applications and examples of providing choice and... control. This episode is a continuation of Episode 50 where Ken Ramirez broke down the science of choice and... control. The episode starts with Tegan commenting how the focus of those two topics have changed and shaped behavior in recent years. Additionally, she educates about what it means to remove "forced" choice and providing control through the use of encouraging animals to say now. Tegan gives thoughtful examples of providing choice and... control and why it is not only important for animal care professionals to have an understanding but also the public. Stay tuned in for Tegan's interesting "Training Tale" about a pygmy falcon who decided to create an awkward ending to a show. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Tegan you can email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:45 Introduction to Teagan Noel
5:40 How has the focus on choice and control evolved and changed the way we care for animals?
11:30 Giving animals control and encouraging animals to “say no” while still receiving active participation
16:00 Practical examples of providing choice and control: Squirrel Monkeys
28:35 Practical example: Control over putting on a harness (coati, wombat)
31:10 Giving more control and removing “forced” choice
40:35 Importance of providing choice and control from the view of the pubic
49:40 Advice for starting the process of providing more control
54:35 “Training Tales”
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This episode we are joined once again by Chris Jenkins of Natural Encounters, Inc. in order to dive deeper into Antecedents, specially looking at Distant Antecedents and navigating the role they play in behavior. This episode is a continuation of Episode 6 where Chris broke down the fundamentals of Antecedents. The episode starts with defining the difference between immediate and distant antecedents and then shifts to the slippery slope that is labeling behavior using distant antecedents as the reason. Chris educates about how behavior is influenced by a myriad of environmental conditions and gives advice on how to take away the subjectivity of a distant antecedent and instead listen to what the animal and their behavior is telling us. Stay tuned in for Chris's interesting "Training Tale" about a double mouth open with a tapir! Additionally check out "The TEC Talk Podcast: Presented by Natural Encounters, Inc.", a like-minded podcast hosted by Chris and Ari Bailey! For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Chris you can find his contact information on the Natural Encounters, Inc. website. Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
3:10 Introduction to Chris Jenkins
7:10 Immediate vs Distant Antecedents
13:20 Antecedents affecting motivation and how our view of them can affect behavior
15:50 Not letting our “arrogance” create roadblocks or excuses for behavior
21:30 Using antecedents to inform decisions while not labeling
26:25 Past consequences become future antecedents
33:00 Using behavioral observations vs our subjective thoughts
37:15 Recognizing that behavior is influenced by more than one condition
41:10 Advice for encouraging others to not place “blame” on distant antecedents
48:55 Critical role us as the human trainers play in behavior
51:50 “Training Tales”
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This episode continues on "The Behaviors of..." series which dives into the human side of the animal care field. In this episode Justin Garner, Committee Chair for The ABMA, helps to give advice on how to successfully implement change. The discussion begins with ideas and advice on communicating ideas to others and how to then put those ideas into action. Justin and Shane also talk through ideas to overcome some of the common "roadblocks" to successfully implementing change including not enough time, we've always done it this way, and a lack of resources. Stay tuned in for a "Training Tale" about a ground hornbill's love for popcorn and how that almost prevented a new idea from coming to fruition. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Justin contact him on the ABMA Community or email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
3:10 Introduction to Justin Garner
4:35 Realistically starting to make change
13:45 Putting the focus on the animals and off yourself
18:50 Leading by example
28:20 Building relationships with your teammates
34:25 Potential Roadblock: “We don’t have enough time for this change”
41:20 Potential Roadblock: “This is what we have always done”
54:40 Potential Roadblock: “Lack of resources”
1:00:00 Be real, show your passions
1:03:20 Not being afraid to fail
1:06:55 Training Tales
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For the 50th episode of the podcast, special guest Ken Ramirez, Karen Pryor Clicker Training breaks down what it means to provide animals with choice and... control. Ken discuss why these terms have often been connected and how to ensure that we are providing both for animals. Ken also speaks to the importance of training in a modern animal setting and how it can be used to help animals get to the "yes" behavior in order to provide control. This episode is filled with practical examples that can provide clarity and help to focus these topics into welfare discussions. Stay tuned in for Ken's "Training Tale" about how he and a rescued dog accidentally ruined a show at the Shedd Aquarium. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Ken you can follow him on Instagram at ken_ramirez_kptc Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
3:55 Introduction to Ken Rameriz
12:05 Introduction to choice and... control
13:45 Definition and practical application of Choice
17:10 Definition and practical application of Control
29:15 Giving animals control while still getting to the yes
37:00 Why are these two terms connected
48:21 Practical example of control
52:10 Can an animal have control but not choice?
59:10 How choice and ... control fit into welfare and future advancements
1:05:40 Advice on how to start using training and behavior to give animals choice and... control
1:08:10 "Training Tales" -
This episode Sandy Jabas, The First VP of The ABMA, discusses what it means for a behavior to be under stimulus control. Sandy educates about how to tell if a behavior is under stimulus control and also the importance of stimulus control in our training. Sandy also teases the 2025 ABMA Annual Conference in Galveston, Texas hosted by Moody Gardens! Stay tuned in for three "Training Tales" about a funny mishap when shifting dolphins, a dolphin tail fluke splash gone wrong, and interesting research about dolphin dive reflex. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Sandy you can email [email protected]. Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:30 Intro to Sandy Jabas
5:50 Intro to the 2025 Annual Conference in Galveston, Texas
9:25 Definition of Stimulus Control
11:40 Practical Examples of Stimulus Control
15:20 How to tell if a behavior is under stimulus control?
23:25 Advice for challenges with training a behavior to be under stimulus control.
27:15 “Training Tales”
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This episode, through daily live recordings, features a recap of the 2024 ABMA annual conference (April 15-19 2024) hosted by the Nashville Zoo. Each day of the conference, one of the presenters for the day discusses their presentation and other learning that impacted them.
Day 1: Benjamin Fainsod, Jerusalem Zoo & The Animal Behavior Community ([email protected])
Day 2: Dr. Cathy Mingee, North Carolina Zoo ([email protected])
Day 3: Cam Luna, Nashville Zoo ([email protected])
Day 4: Chandelle Cotter, Bird Treatment and Learning Center ([email protected])
If you are an ABMA member be sure to log in to Animalprofessional.com to watch most of the presentations and panels from the 2024 conference. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected]. Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
7:00 Recap of Monday with Benjamin Fainsod, Jerusalem Zoo & The Animal Behavior Community
18:45 Recap of Tuesday with Cathy Mingee, North Carolina Zoo
35:45 Recap of Thursday with Cam Luna, Nashville Zoo
45:05 Recap of Friday with Chandelle Cotter, Bird Treatment and Learning Center
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This episode Tim Sullivan, Brookfield Zoo Chicago and one of the founders of The ABMA, discusses how to use behavioral goals to provide purposeful lives to animals. Tim starts by giving a little history to the founding of The ABMA and then jumps into discussing why behavior is an all encompassing word. If you were at the 2024 ABMA annual conference in Nashville or if you are an ABMA member and watch Tim's environmental enrichment workshop on animalprofessional.com, this podcast episode is a great companion to his presentation. Tim educates about shifting our mindset in order to provide purposeful lives to animals. Taking ourselves away from providers and into a facilitator role, allowing animals to do the jobs that they do best! Tim also speaks to what it means to teach animals to be good learners instead of teaching animals "good" lessons and how we can all successfully navigate this shift in thinking. Stay tuned in for Tim's "Training Tale" about how he started thinking about the correlation between guest applause and the behaviors of the animal. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Tim you can email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:30 Introduction to Tim Sullivan
9:15 History on the founding of The ABMA
12:50 Why is behavior an all encompassing word for training, enrichment, etc.?
16:20 What does it mean to “Provide Purposeful Lives” to animals?
23:25 Teaching animals how to interact with an enrichment opportunity/do a novel behavior in their free time?
28:05 Getting started with changing the mindset
33:50 Shift in enrichment from items to experiences/opportunities
37:20 Teaching animals to be good learners, not teaching good lessons
48:05 “Training Tales”
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This episode Sarah van Herpt, Animals Asia - Vietnam, discusses relationship and trust building with animals who previously lived in adverse and traumatic environments. Animals Asia rescues bears from the bear bile industry so Sarah is able to give practical examples of how they help the rescued bears move from trauma to trust. Sarah educates about desensitization and different techniques used to build trust such as temporarily using negative reinforcement with animals where the best reinforcer is distance and space. Sarah also talks about how to build trust back quickly after a situation that may require some of that trust to be broken. l Stay tuned in for a "Training Tale" about giving the power of consent and control back to rescued bears! For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] To reach Sarah email [email protected] and to learn more about Animals Asia visit their website at https://www.animalsasia.org Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
3:00 Introduction to Sarah van Herpt and Animals Asia
9:00 Starting to build a trusting relationship with an animal from a previously aversive situation
16:00 Desensitization
21:10 Negative Reinforcement as a temporary tool
24:05 Relationship building outside of a “formal” training session
28:40 Working with animals with low trust in the “trust account”
31:55 Building relationships back up after doing something that takes away some trust (example: necessary medical procedure)
36:05 Overcoming setbacks with animals that previously had traumatic experiences
37:30 “Training Tale”
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This episode is a collaboration with AAZK (American Association of Zoo Keepers) for their "Spotlight on Aquariums Week". The guests for this episode are Sarah Snider-Keys from the Board of Directors of AAZK and Sarah (SK) Ivkovich from The Dolphin Research Center (DRC) as they discuss behavior management in an aquatic setting. Sarah and SK discuss some of the differences and challenges of working with purely aquatic species and some of the creative solutions and successes that come from an aquatic setting. This episode also touches on when and how to start training baby animals and training animals in a social group. Stay tuned in for a "Training Tale" about how a dolphin learned how to soar not from a trainer's approximations, but by watching and learning from another dolphin. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] or visit our website https://www.theabma.org To reach Sarah Snider- Keys email [email protected] and to learn more about AAZK visit their website https://aazk.org To reach Sarah Ivkovich email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:50 Intro to Sarah Snider-Keys and SK Ivkovich4:25 Information about AAZK (American Association of Zoo Keepers)
6:55 Spotlight on Aquariums Week
10:20 Planning and implementing training in an aquatic setting
15:05 Specific behaviors/techniques that are unique to purely aquatic species
19:00 Advantages and challenges with habitats that are in the public view
25:20 Training baby animals before food is a reinforcer/When should you start training?
33:15 Social animals, group vs individual animal criteria
38:50 Enrichment opportunities in an aquatic setting
46:10 Advice for starting behavior programs with aquatic species
52:30 “Training Tales”
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This episode Cassie Malina, Awesome Animal Solutions, discusses a topic that has been requested by multiple listeners: How to start a behavior program! Cassie starts by detailing what a behavior program could entail, where to start, and how to approach leadership and your team about the process. Cassie also discusses all of the benefits of starting a behavior program to both animal and human wellness. Stay tuned in for two "Training Tales" from Cassie! The first involves a crowned crane learning the importance of an elevator and the second is a unique way in which a hyacinth macaw learned a voluntary towel behavior. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] To reach Cassie email [email protected] or visit her website https://www.awesomeanimalsolutions-cassiemalina.com Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
1:35 Information about the 2024 Annual Conference
4:30 Introduction to Cassie Malina
11:05 What does a “Behavior Program” entail?
15:20 Where to start when beginning a behavior program?
18:55 Approaching leadership about starting a behavior program
24:20 How to prepare and coach your team to prepare for starting a program?
29:30 Behaviors or concepts to start with the animals in the new program?
33:45 Advice on building relationships with animals who previously didn’t have a relationship
39:40 Focusing a behavior plan on animals/species that previously didn’t have one
42:30 Reinforcing your teammates and recognizing the “wins”
45:30 How to balance the added time commitment of a behavior program
49:55 “Training Tales”
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This episode Heather Samper, Moody Gardens and “All Things ABMA”, discusses the importance of body language while training. The first part of the episode focuses on learning to read an animal learner’s body language, how to implement that into your sessions, and the benefits of being a keen listener of body language. The second portion of the episode focuses on why it is so vital for us as trainers to be cognizant of our own body language. Stay tuned in for two "Training Tales" from Heather! The first is a hilarious story involving a coati and Russian secret service agents (yes, you read that correctly) and the second is an in depth look into search and rescue with Heather’s beagle. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] To reach Heather about ABMA related discussions email [email protected] or [email protected] and for items regarding MyTrainingStore.com email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:40 Introduction to Heather Samper
11:35 Why is it important to learn how to read an animal’s body language?
15:50 Implementing the skill of reading body language into training sessions
26:00 Under or Over Threshold
28:25 Universal body language “fundamentals”
37:05 Calm Baseline
41:00 Reinforcing for body language and the benefits
49:25 Importance of the trainer’s body language
1:00:00 “Training Tales”
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This episode Kelli Meyers, ZooTampa at Lowry Park, discusses The 10 Modern Principles of Shaping as created by Karen Pryor and how they have evolved from "The 10 Laws of Shaping". Kelli breaks down each principle and gives advice on how to best implement and think about each of the principles. The 10 principles can be found below in the timestamps for this episode. Stay tuned in for Kelli's "Training Tale" about how she had to get really creative with her body positioning (hint: it included floating in the middle of the habitat) to help teach a sea lion a "clapping" behavior. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Kelli you can email [email protected] Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
1:40 Introduction to Kelli Meyers
4:30 Introduction to the 10 modern principles of shaping
6:50 Principle 1: Be prepared before you start
10:35 Principle 2: Ensure success at each step
12:25 Principle 3: Train one criterion at a time
14:10 Principle 4: Relax criteria when something changes
15:40 Principle 5: If one door close, find another
18:55 Principle 6: Keep training sessions continuous
20:20 Principle 7: Go back to “kindergarten” if necessary, take a step back and then move forward
21:45 Principle 8: Keep your attention on your learner
25:50 Principle 9: Stay ahead of your learner
26:45 Principle 10: Quit while you’re ahead
33:20 “Training Tales”
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This episode Esther Verhoeven discusses the human perception of animal intelligence (both from the point of view of an animal care professional and a guest) and how that effects behavior. The conversation starts with Esther discussing how behaviorists should view animal intelligence so that it doesn't create excuses or affect the way we manage the animals in our care. Esther finishes the discussion by commenting on educating guests about animal intelligence and the importance of the language that we use when talking to and about animals. Stay tuned in for Esther's "Training Tale" as she dives into discussing how dolphins perceived the idea of a behavior differently during scuba diving training sessions For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Esther you can find her on all major social medias (Estherv_n). Link to Esther's Ted Talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCqOCQ4J9qc Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
2:50 Introduction to Esther Verhoeven
6:00 How behaviorists/trainers should be viewing animal intelligence?
10:15 Responses to questions about animals being “more” or “less” intelligent than others
13:15 All animals have the ability to learn and, thus, can be trained
15:35 Using labels or intelligence as an excuse for not training
18:10 Animals are experts in human body language
19:05 The dangers of thinking for animals in our care
23:20 Educating the public about animal intelligence
26:05 Why our “chosen language” in how we talk to and talk about animals is important
28:45 “Training Tales”
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This episode Gabby Harris, uShake Sea World, discusses an article that she wrote for "Engage", the quarterly behavior publication of The ABMA. The article is titled "Welfare Considerations for Behavior Management of Animals in Human-Care: The Role of Self Regulation”. Gabby educates about why self-regulation can affect an animal's wellbeing and how we can provide opportunities for self-regulation to animals. Stay tuned in for two "Training Tales" each focusing on learning moments with dolphins! For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to contact Gabby email [email protected] or visit her website: www.touchinganimalsouls.blogspot.com To read the article in "Engage": engage Let's talk some training and banter about behavior!
4:40 Introduction to Gabby Harris
12:30 Summary of “Engage” article
15:45 Mental wellbeing of animals
18:25 Definition of Self-Regulation
22:40 Providing opportunities for self-regulation
42:25 Optimism of animals
43:50 “Training Tales”
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This episode Kyle Banton-Jones, Wild Enrichment, discusses the importance of focusing on the individual vs the group or species in regards to behavioral husbandry. This episode was recorded in collaboration with Kyle's podcast and is a compliment to episode 53 of the Wild Enrichment Podcast, so be sure to check out here: https://wildenrichment.podbean.com In continuation from that episode, Kyle talks about the evolution of enrichment and advancing behavioral husbandry of under-represented species. Additionally, Kyle discusses an article that he wrote, "Behavioral Husbandry for the Individual", and gives considerations for focusing on both the species/group while also ensuring that individual animal's needs are met. Stay tuned in for Kyle's "Training Tale" about how a macaw gave him a lightbulb moment about communicating with animals while training . For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Kyle email [email protected] or contact any of Wild Enrichment's social channels. To learn more about Wild Enrichment, read the article that this episode discusses, and utilize their resources visit: https://wildenrichment.com Let's talk some training!
6:00 Introduction to Kyle Banton-Jones and Wild Enrichment
10:50 How the word “enrichment” has evolved and changed
13:45 Advancing behavioral husbandry in “under-represented” species
20:20 Behavioral Husbandry for the Individual
23:45 Considerations from the viewpoint of the species
28:40 Considerations from the viewpoint of the individual
31:45 Providing opportunities for the group while also providing opportunities for the individual
34:15 Focusing on one individual’s enrichment goals within a group
38:10 The importance of applicable data collection
39:30 “Training Tales”
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This episode Dani Larson, Southwick's Zoo, discusses prompts and how they provide additional information to animal learners. Dani gives great examples of prompts and discusses the difference between a prompt and a discriminative stimulus. Additionally, Dani educates about the importance of fading prompts, but also how to utilize prompts when a behavior breakdown. Stay tuned in for a wild "Training Tale" about how Dani used a soup spoon to teach her dog "Paw". For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Dani contact her on Instagram, @danipoirier, or email [email protected] Let's talk some training!
5:55 Introduction to Dani Larson
11:25 Definition of a Prompt
13:40 Examples of prompts
18:35 The difference between a prompt and a discriminative stimulus (cue)
21:30 Fading out prompts
29:15 How to fade out a prompt
38:40 How to utilize a prompt when a behavior breaks down
43:25 “Training Tales”
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This episode Meghan Holst, one of the co-founders of MIAZS (Minorities in Aquarium and Zoo Science), adds another addition to "The Behaviors of..." series by discussing the behaviors of allyship and giving insight in to MIAZS as an organization. Meghan educates about what allyship is and ways in which everyone can be involved in being an ally. Meghan also talks about how to professionally and effectively bring up social justice issues in a workplace and why human behavior is just as important as animal behavior. "The healthier and supported humans are, the healthier and supported the animals are." Stay tuned for Meghan's "Training Tale" about conditioning an electrical signal bridge for sharks. For questions or suggestions about the podcast email [email protected] and to reach Meghan email [email protected]. Also, check out all of the free, informational resources offered by MIAZS on their website. https://www.miazs.org Let's talk some training!
3:35 Introduction to Meghan Holst
8:30 All about MIAZS (Minorities in Aquarium and Zoo Sciences)
17:30 How to get involved and support MIAZS
19:35 What is Allyship?
23:00 Behaviors of being an ally
28:15 How to bring up social justice issues in the workplace
33:20 Why is human behavior just as important as animal behavior
38:40 “Training Tales”
- Visa fler
