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  • Why is condensing information a critical skill for a CEO?

    How do you keep dozens of people across different functions of a company feel like one team?

    And why should you keep patients and caregivers at the centre of drug discovery?

    Today I’m joined by Susan Hill, CEO of Mestag Therapeutics, a Cambridge-based company developing new programs for cancer and inflammatory disease.

    We’ll touch on the science towards the end of the episode.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    0:00 – From Lab to Boardroom

    6:23 – The Call to Lead

    10:26 – Knowing When to Jump

    14:12 – Comfortable with Uncertainty

    16:33 – Shared Challenges at the Top

    21:01 – The Art of Condensing

    27:56 – Tackling Solid Tumors

    32:46 – Multiple Teams, One Mission

    34:36 – Closing the Gap for Patients

    39:00 – Sailing Toward the Horizon

  • How does a cancer diagnosis completely rewire your leadership style?

    Why is maintaining your mindset a core responsibility of a CEO?

    And what is the question every leader should ask themselves before they make a decision?

    Today I’m joined by Danuta Jeziorska, the former CEO and co-founder of Nucleome and current CEO and co-founder of Uncover Therapeutics based in Oxford. Uncover is an immuno-oncology company turning cancer’s immunoshield into an immunobeacon.

    And we’ll get more into the science of that towards the end of the episode.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    0:58 — Fascination With the Code of Life

    5:06 — The CV in the Suitcase

    12:54 — From the Lab to the Boardroom

    17:20 — A Pandemic, a Diagnosis and a Company to Run

    21:03 — Leading From Purpose Not Fear

    25:26 — The CEO's Most Underrated Responsibility

    30:48 — Why She Said Yes to Oncology

    32:34 — What Europe Must Do Differently

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  • What happens when the science you built a company on becomes the science you desperately wish could save someone close?

    How do you transform as a leader as your company evolves?

    And why should you actively seek out friction when building your company?

    Today I’m joined by Stephanie Flueckiger, co-founder and CEO of TOLREMO Therapeutics based in Basel, Switzerland. TOLREMO is developing small molecules to reprogram cancer for longer patient benefit.

    As usual, we’ll talk a bit more about the science at the end of the episode.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    0:00 — From Science to Purpose

    1:17 — A Founder's Call to Action

    5:52 — Tragedy at the Start

    9:27 — Evolving as a Leader

    14:41 — Leading Calmly Under Pressure

    17:54 — The Swiss and European Ecosystem

    21:30 — Communicating Across Cultures

    24:42 — The Science of Drug Resistance

    29:49 — Embracing Friction

  • Why is self-awareness the secret ingredient to good leadership?

    How do you let go of a critical early team member?

    And what does it take to found a company during your PhD?

    Today I’m joined by Marc Gitzinger, CEO of BioVersys, a biotech based in Basel, Switzerland. BioVersys is a leader in the anti-infective space, developing new antibiotics for very highly drug-resistant infections.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    01:16 — From the Lab to the Boardroom

    02:51 — The Naivety That Gets You Started

    04:08 — When the Board Asks the Impossible

    09:12 — Managing Up: Working With Your Board

    11:42 — Try Before You Buy: Choosing Independent Directors

    15:25 — Three Experts, One Decision

    17:05 — A Culture of Calculated Risk

    19:05 — A Hub Unlike Any Other

    20:40 — The Antibiotic Paradox

    25:14 — Stigma, Silence, and Resistant Infections

    35:15 — The Mirror Test

  • Why do people with a sense of service make better leaders?

    How do you walk into the boardroom – on the cusp of clinical trials – and tell them the strategy is set to fail?

    And what does it mean to go from CSO to CEO on the brink of a pivot?

    Today I’m joined by Namir Hassan, CEO of Zelluna based in Oslo, Norway. Zelluna is developing next generation off the shelf cell therapies to address huge unmet needs like solid tumours in oncology.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    1:32 A personal connection to cancer

    4:12 From scientist to CEO: answering the call

    4:25 Service as a leadership philosophy

    6:58 Leading through a high-stakes pivot

    15:25 Stepping into the unknown: leading outside your expertise

    19:50 The challenges facing biotech leaders today

    21:49 Activity is not progress

    24:25 The biotech ecosystem in Oslo

    27:51 Why solid tumors are so hard to treat

    32:15 What the ecosystem needs to address solid cancer

    34:58 A call for steady, accountable leadership

  • What does it take to follow the science halfway round the world?

    How do you persuade a team of brilliant scientists to go from asking questions to building solutions?

    And why is “If you’re explaining, you’re losing” some of the worst advice in biotech?

    Today I’m joined by Reagan Jarvis, CEO of Anocca. Anocca is a T-Cell biology biotech based near Stockholm, Sweden, and they’re building a platform to decipher T-cell targets and targeting constructs to develop personalised and precise T-cell therapies.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    01:35 — Following the Science Across the World

    03:04 — From Postdoc Frustration to Founding a Company

    04:37 — Taking the CEO Role

    06:02 — Redirecting Scientists Toward Execution

    10:59 — Communicating Differentiation in a Complex Field

    13:53 — Lessons in Tone and Positioning

    18:31 — Building Biotech in Europe

    22:29 — Decoding T-Cell Biology and the Path to Personalised Therapies

    32:39 — Leadership vs. Management

  • How do you run a company that is – quite literally – in a warzone?

    Why should you define your culture before building the company?

    And what is the secret to a co-founder relationship that’s lasted longer than most marriages?

    Today I’m joined by Yogev Debbi, CEO and co-founder of Mana Bio based in Tel Aviv, Israel. Mana is an AI based drug delivery startup, focusing on gene therapy including DNA and RNA-based therapeutics, and vaccines.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    1:37 – From Software to Life Science: Finding Purpose Beyond Profit

    3:41 – Building a Founding Team: Hiring Scientists When You're Not One

    16:42 – The Co-Founder Relationship: Trust, Transparency, and Two Decades Together

    19:17 – Defining Culture Before You Have a Company

    21:05 – Using Investors as a Filter: Reverse Due Diligence During Ideation

    32:38 – Leading Through Crisis: Resilience in an Active Conflict Zone

    37:55 – The Gene Delivery Challenge: Why the Space Shuttle Matters More Than the Astronaut

    39:41 – AI-Driven Drug Discovery: Redefining What a Failed Experiment Means

    45:18 – The Tech-Bio Convergence: Bridging Two Worlds Within One Team

  • What do you do when a family member gets a life-changing diagnosis?

    How do you convince investors to back the impossible?

    And why should you ask every expert to kill your idea?

    I’m joined by JP Latere, CEO of Esobiotec. Based in Belgium, Esobiotec pioneered in-vivo cell therapy and was acquired by AstraZeneca in a billion-dollar deal in 2025.

    Of course, we’ll talk more about the deal (and the science) at the end of the episode.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Chapters

    0:00 Introduction

    2:35 When Cancer Gets Personal

    5:47 No More Options

    7:48 The Manufacturing Crisis

    12:18 A Crazy Idea Worth Exploring

    12:57 Betting on the Impossible

    17:16 How to Kill an Idea

    28:19 The China Pivot

    34:06 Good Data Screams

    38:54 Cell Therapy for Everyone

    42:03 The Patient Is the Ultimate Shareholder

  • Why is leadership development a bit like working out?

    How does a self-confessed introvert and data-driven scientist rewire themselves to make high-stakes decisions with incomplete information?

    What does it really mean to lead a biotech as an outsider – an immigrant, a woman, an introvert - who never set out to be a CEO?

    Today I’m joined by Ola Wlodek, CEO of Constructive Bio based in Cambridge UK.

    Constructive Bio is a biotechnology company specializing the manufacturing and design of proteins and peptides with new chemistries for pharma and other industries.

    We’ll talk more about the science at the end of the episode.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps

    4:12 From Medicine to Molecular Biology

    6:13 The Path to a PhD and an Unconventional Career

    6:57 Leading from the Lab: An Unexpected CEO

    7:52 Building Leadership Muscles as an Introvert

    10:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in the C-Suite

    15:55 Navigating Cultural Identity and Bias in Biotech

    19:33 Women in Science: Systemic Barriers and Advocacy

    22:55 Intentionality as a Strategic Leadership Tool

    26:44 The Science of Sustainable Peptide Manufacturing

    33:29 CEO Loneliness and the Power of Peer Networks

  • Why is celebrating failure in life science just as important as celebrating success?

    How do you make the psychological shift from being one expert among many in the room to being a leader of experts?

    And what does a near-industry wide clinical failure have to do with a potential new treatment for half a billion osteoarthritis patients?

    Today I’m joined by Eliot Forster, CEO of Levicept based just south of Oxford in the UK, looking into novel treatments for the signs and symptoms of osteoarthritis.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps

    1:03 - From Big Pharma to Biotech: Why Cross the Table?

    4:33 - The Moment You Decide to Lead

    7:41 - The Personal Toll of the CEO Role

    9:39 - Practical Habits That Protect Your Bandwidth

    11:04 - Leading in a Crowded Capital Environment

    13:02 - Transitioning from Expert to Leader of Experts

    17:36 - Why Celebrating Failure Is Non-Negotiable in Drug Development

    24:40 - The Maturing European Life Science Ecosystem

    28:07 - A Novel Approach to Osteoarthritis: From Industry-Wide Failure to Phase 2 Success

    35:13 - Optimism as a Professional Imperative in Life Science

  • How do you lead a company that’s one of the first of its kind?

    What can a geocaching game on a company retreat teach you about leadership style?

    Can AI tackle the big challenges in drug discovery today?

    Today I’m joined by Szabolcs Nagy, CEO of Turbine, based in Budapest, Hungary. Founded 10 years ago, Turbine is virtualising biology from the cellular level upwards using AI.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps:

    0:00 - Introduction & Background

    1:19 - From Cybersecurity to Life Sciences

    6:18 - Becoming CEO: Leadership Transition

    10:14 - Early Challenges: Learning the Space

    14:22 - Navigating Imposter Syndrome

    19:03 - Leadership Lessons from Geocaching

    22:44 - Building in Hungary: Ecosystem Challenges

    26:05 - Virtualizing Biology: The Vision

    32:01 - Industry Challenges: Data, AI & Business Models

    37:48 - Leadership Reflection: Letting Go

  • What do you do when entrepreneurship calls and your partner lives overseas?

    How much can you really delegate as a CEO?

    Why does a 50-year-old gene expression problem still exist – and what happens if we solve it?

    I’m joined by Kart Tomberg, CEO of ExpressionEdits based in Cambridge, UK. ExpressionEdits is a seed-stage company taking on the challenging bottlenecks going from DNA to protein and convincing cells to make proteins for us.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps:

    0:00 - Introduction & Background

    2:52 - From Academia to Entrepreneurship

    7:18 - Early Leadership Lessons

    10:30 - The Two-Body Problem

    13:39 - Challenges Facing Life Science CEOs

    19:25 - Cambridge Ecosystem & European Life Science

    22:59 - The Science: Protein Expression Challenge

    30:45 - Leadership Philosophy & Delegation

  • Why lead a company into the increasingly crowded obesity space?

    How do you go from a career in veterinary surgery to CEO of a medtech company?

    And what is so magical about Oxford when it comes to life science?

    Today I’m joined by Camilla Easter, CEO of Oxford Medical Products (OMP), a late-stage medtech company based in Witney, Oxfordshire, in the UK. OMP’s lead product is a non-pharmacological treatment for obesity in overweight patients.

    We’ll talk more about the science at the end of the episode, but first Camilla shares her journey to leadership from the vet clinic.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps

    Introduction (0:00)From Veterinary Surgery to Biotech Leadership (0:53)The Call to Lead: Finding Your Path (1:50)Career Transitions: Navigating Change (4:30)Stepping Into CEO Role (7:55)Personal Challenges and Defining Moments (10:49)Shared Challenges in Life Science Leadership (15:42)Leadership Lessons: Communication & Community (17:47)The European Life Science Ecosystem (20:39)Tackling the Obesity Crisis: Why This Problem? (21:47)The Technology: A Non-Pharmacological Solution (25:21)Ecosystem Solutions: What We Can Do Together (27:13)A Vision for the Future (33:09)Final Thoughts: Embracing Failure and Learning (35:49)
  • Why does the perception of facts matter when talking to investors?

    How do you attract a US-based chair to a European company’s board?

    And what are the advantages of running a virtual biotech with no labs of its own?

    Today, I’m joined by Victor Bustos, CEO of Refoxy Pharma. Refoxy is a "virtual biotech" located in Cologne, Germany, and is developing small-molecule drugs for the treatment of age-related disease.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps:

    0:00 - Introduction: The Leadership Journey

    1:24 - From Academia to Entrepreneurship

    6:00 - Early Leadership Challenges: Truth vs. Perception

    7:24 - Communication Skills & Stakeholder Management

    10:37 - Peer Learning & Strategic Thinking

    12:05 - Building Your Board: Attracting US Talent to Europe

    13:29 - Virtual Biotech Model: Advantages & Strategy

    16:26 - Due Diligence in CRO Partnerships

    18:09 - The Science: Targeting Age-Related Disease

    20:01 - Strategic Indication Selection: IPF Case Study

    22:01 - Ecosystem Collaboration & Regulatory Landscape

    23:31 - The Future of Longevity Medicine

    25:25 - Leadership Philosophy: Leading by Example

  • How does a United States Air Force officer end up leading a European biotech company?

    Is there an advantage to leading a company that’s based half a world away?

    And are you doing a regrets analysis as part of your decision-making?

    This week I’m joined by Mark Gaffney, a Boston-based CEO leading Calluna Pharma. Calluna is a Norwegian company developing therapeutics for inflammatory and fibrotic diseases, such as IPF – but we’ll get into the science later in the episode.

    First, Mark shares his story on what drew him into life science and how he got from the US air force and into C-suite.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps

    1:30 - From Military Service to Biotech Leadership

    1:45 - Personal Motivation: Fighting Retinitis Pigmentosa

    3:10 - Career Transition: Law to Life Sciences

    5:36 - Stepping Up to CEO: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

    7:49 - Leadership Lessons from the Air Force

    12:00 - Leading Across Continents: Virtual Leadership Strategies

    16:14 - The Regrets Analysis: A Decision-Making Framework

    20:03 - European Biotech Innovation and Efficiency

    22:13 - Calluna Pharma: Tackling IPF with Novel Targets

    24:02 - Navigating Risk in Novel Target Development

    25:35 - Ecosystem Support for Inflammatory Disease Research

    28:32 - Building and Empowering High-Performance Teams

  • What inspires a theoretical physicist to start a drug invention company?

    How do you choose the right co-founder when you're coming from academia?

    And, in a multi-site, multi-cultural European organisation – how does a leader manage communication with the team?

    I’m joined by Maximilien Levesque, physics academic turned entrepreneur, CEO and co-founder of Paris and London-based company AQEMIA. Aqemia uses a mix of physics and generative AI to invent therapeutics for poorly treated diseases.

    More on the science towards the end of the episode, but first Max explains what inspired him to found AQEMIA and how he's faced challenges from selecting a co-founder to communicating and maintaining team alignment as his company grows in two locations.

    About LifeScience ORG

    It’s no secret that Europe is a global leader in generating translational science. We’re grateful at LifeScience ORG to have a community of over 400 life science CEOs – leaders driving change in biotech, medtech, techBio and healthcare.

    The conversations inside our community – stories of conviction, navigating challenges, and making bold decisions – inspire us every week. To hear the stories, lessons, and experiences of our life science leaders, listen to A Call to Lead @ LifeScience ORG, available on all good podcasting platforms.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome

    00:27 Max's Story

    05:08 Challenges and Realizations in the Leadership Journey

    07:09 Finding the Right Co-Founder

    10:32 Building a Multicultural, Multidisciplinary Company

    13:44 Maintaining Team Alignment

    14:50 European Life Science Landscape

    17:09 Generative AI in Drug Discovery

    24:42 Vision for the Future

    26:23 Leadership Insights

  • This isn't Jack O'Meara's first rodeo.

    As CEO of Ochre Bio, he saw the company bring in millions to develop pioneering RNA therapies for liver disease. With his new venture Aerska, he's looking at bringing the transformative potential of targeted RNA therapy to the realm of neurological disease.

    In this episode of A Call to Lead, David Kirk speaks with Jack O’Meara, CEO and co-founder of Aerska, about his personal story behind tackling neurodegenerative disease and the realities of leading biotech companies in Europe.

    Jack shares candid lessons on decision-making, context-driven leadership, and building transatlantic networks to scale innovation.

  • Biotech leader Avencia Sánchez-Mejías, CEO of Integra Therapeutics, joins A Call to Lead to share her leadership and entrepreneurship story, as well as her take on innovation in Europe’s fast-rising life sciences ecosystem.

    In this episode of A Call To Lead, Avencia shares lessons on resilience, uncertainty, diversity, and the human side of leadership in science-driven entrepreneurship. Listen to her journey from academia to biotech CEO, her vision for safer gene editing, and how resilient leadership is reshaping European biotechnology.

  • How do you lead a company across continents and through uncertainty?

    In this episode of A Call to Lead, David Kirk speaks with Samir Ounzain, CEO and scientific co-founder of Haya Therapeutics.

    Samir shares how a lifelong curiosity about how cells “speak” to their environment led him from academia to building a company at the frontier of RNA-guided medicine.

    He reflects on what it takes to lead through uncertainty, translate visionary science into tangible therapies, and build culture and alignment across continents. This conversation is a masterclass in marrying deep biology with purposeful leadership.

  • The birth of Alexandre Le Vert's daughter amidst a global 'flu scare put him on the path to leadership.

    Now, he's the co-founder and executive Chair of Osivax, a clinical-stage biotech company focusing on vaccine research and development based in Lyon, France. 

    In this episode of A Call To Lead, Alex shares his series of fortunate events that led him to co-found Osivax, challenges he faced getting to grips with the legal obligations of leadership, and the lessons he learned from great mentors along the way.