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TRANSCRIPT:
Hey everyone, welcome to Messy Minutes: Assessment Edition Episode 1: There’s no place like backward design! I’m your host, Shannon Schinkel, from the Embrace the Messy Podcast. Today, we’re kicking off a new series on Proficiency Scale Design—and where better to start than by embracing the messy reality of Backward Design? It’s time to let go of old habits and embrace a new way of thinking about lesson planning. Trust me—it’s worth it. There’s simply “no place like backward design…no place like back design…”________________________________________Here’s the Issue: Many teachers still plan lessons by focusing on content first. They think teaching means covering units, chapters, and textbook sections in a specific order. The more they cover, the better, right? Wrong. This approach is called forward design, where the focus is on moving through material, hoping students learn what they need along the way. Where did this come from?
Forward design was historically embraced by educators because it aligned with traditional educational practices. Teachers were used to creating lessons around familiar topics or textbooks, with assessments added afterward. Since early educational models prioritized delivering content, learning was seen primarily as acquiring knowledge through lectures and materials. This made forward design feel straightforward and flexible, allowing teachers to plan engaging activities first and fit assessments around them. Moreover, during the industrial age, schools operated like factories—teaching was the input, and learning was the expected output—reinforcing the step-by-step logic of forward design. With few detailed assessment frameworks available, teachers naturally focused on delivering lessons and evaluating learning afterward, making backward design less practical at the time.
But here’s the challenge: If students don’t fully grasp the essential learning targets, what was the point of covering all that material? Checking off topics, assigning quizzes, and grading papers might show progress on the surface, but deeper learning happens when lessons are purposefully designed with clear goals in mind. Forward design emphasizes completion, while meaningful learning requires planning with mastery as the destination.________________________________________Let’s Break It Down: Let’s talk about what Backward Design really means. It’s a planning process where you start with the end in mind—the learning goals or standards—and then work backward to decide what activities, lessons, and assessments will help students reach those goals.
With backward design, consider these reflective questions:• What skills and knowledge should students have by the end of the course?• How will you know students have learned these skills?• What learning experiences will support their growth?
Note that the learning opportunities come last, not first. Content is still important, but it’s the path, not the destination.
Many teachers fall into the unit coverage trap. They feel pressure to cover every topic and every chapter, often falling into the 'inch deep, mile wide' trap where they may rush through numerous units without ensuring deep understanding of essential skills. But here’s the reality: Coverage isn’t learning.
Beginning with the units often means:• Rushing from unit to unit with the idea that students need to get through all units regardless of whether they have mastered a skill• Giving assessments which tend to focus on content or are a mishmash of skills all rolled into unit assessments rather than skill-specific assessment• Checking off curriculum boxes without ensuring students mastered anything meaningful• Backward design frees you from that pressure. When you plan with the standard as the destination, you can be selective about what content really matters. Educators can still follow the linear progression of units but should focus on the skills students need to develop, ensuring each unit meaningfully supports those skills rather than simply covering topics in order. You prioritize depth over breadth and ensure that what students learn sticks.
This approach focuses on teaching skills, not just topics, ensuring that learning is intentional, purposeful, and aligned with meaningful outcomes.
Backward design isn’t about throwing out your favorite lessons—it’s about making sure they fit the goal. Consider refining or replacing lessons that don’t help students reach the standard. Well-designed learning opportunities can still follow a familiar sequence, provided they build the skills students need. Revisiting and refining favorite lessons can ensure they serve a clear, intentional purpose.
So, shifting from forward design to backward design can feel uncomfortable at first, especially if you’re used to planning around units. But remember: It’s not about teaching less—it’s about teaching better.________________________________________Visualize This Scenario:Imagine you are on a hiking trip as part of the course Hiking 101. The guide grabs a trail map and chooses a random path, with the only firm goal being to finish the hike and move on to the next one. Along the way, the guide checks your progress by seeing how far you’ve walked and whether you seem engaged. You might struggle, but the guide has only so much time to complete the hike and get ready for the next one, leaving little room for learning essential hiking skills like navigation, pacing, and managing trail challenges. While you covered ground and enjoyed the journey, taking in beautiful scenery, there was no clear purpose beyond completing the route, knowing there’s another hike tomorrow.That’s Forward Design: The guide’s main objective was simply finishing the hike to move on to the next one.
Now, consider a different hiking trip. This time, the guide sets three clear goals: assessing the impact of warm-ups and accurately reading trail markers. Before the hike, the guide has you practice these two skills. The hike itself becomes the assessment, with the guide checking how well you apply those skills along the way, offering focused feedback, and giving multiple opportunities to demonstrate improvement based on specific learning targets.
You still explore, enjoy the scenery, and take breaks, but every stop serves a purpose: assessing the impact of warm-ups and accurately reading trail markers. Finishing the summit is a rewarding outcome, but the real goal is developing the skills needed for the journey. And the focus of these two skills doesn’t end with the hiking trip; the guide tells you that you will be able to focus on what went well and not well on the next hike.
The difference? Backward Design sets the skill goals first, ensuring that every step along the way is intentional.________________________________________Let’s Recap: Backward design means shifting from content-first planning to goal-first planning. It’s about focusing on what students need to learn, not just what teachers need to cover. When you start with the standard—the summit—you can design lessons that make every step count.________________________________________Closing: So now you are ready to embrace the messiness of backward design. Grab a standard and see you next Friday for the second in our series called This is the start of a beautiful proficiency scale.
***Have a suggestion for someone Shannon should interview, a question about an episode, or some feedback about the podcast, email Shannon here: [email protected].
Thankyou for listening! Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Find out more about Shannon Schinkel:
https://linktr.ee/ShannonSchinkel
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People, do I have a treat for you! Last summer I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Thomas Guskey, and I am finally, finally getting around to sharing it with you—and I thought, what a perfect full length episode to share before the Messy Minutes Assessment Edition Special Proficiency Scale series drops this Friday! Dr. Guskey is an internationally renowned educator, researcher, and author whose career spans decades of groundbreaking contributions to education. From his early days as a middle school teacher to his influential work in grading reform, mastery learning, and educational evaluation, Dr. Guskey has shaped how educators and leaders think about teaching and learning. I also got to meet another one of my assessment heroes, and he did not disappoint. We explored his insights, his latest work, and the powerful ways we can reimagine education together.
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Contact Dr. Guskey through his website: Tguskey.com
***Have a suggestion for someone Shannon should interview, a question about an episode, or some feedback about the podcast, email Shannon here: [email protected].
Thankyou for listening! Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Find out more about Shannon Schinkel:
https://linktr.ee/ShannonSchinkel
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Saknas det avsnitt?
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This is your host, Shannon Schinkel, from Messy Minutes: Assessment Edition, part of the Embrace the Messy Podcast, with a cool announcement!
I’m thrilled to introduce something I think will make a real difference for you and your students. Over the next six episodes, we’re diving headfirst into building better assessment criteria.
Designing criteria for standards is one of my favorite things to teach, but I know not everyone has access to workshops or the luxury of time to dedicate to professional development in this area. Maybe workshops conflict with your professional goals, or the idea of asking for clarification in a large group feels intimidating. Maybe traveling to see an expert just isn’t financially accessible, or you’ve been creating criteria on your own and want to see new approaches.
These six episodes won’t replace hands-on learning, but they will provide practical, accessible information to help you get started. Whether you’re brand new to this or have some experience, there’s something here for everyone. Each episode is short—around 10 minutes—and builds on the last as we work through a pretend standard together, creating a polished proficiency scale by the end.
And let’s be clear: there’s no single way to design criteria. What I’m sharing is my approach—what I know works. Feel free to adapt it and make it your own.Why this series? Because I know how overwhelming assessment reform can feel. You hear about it all the time but might not know where to begin. This series gives you a place to start. At the end of each episode, you’ll be ready to apply the steps to one of your own standards, building confidence and clarity as we go deeper each week.
This isn’t about perfection—it’s about progress. Each episode offers practical steps to help you create meaningful, actionable criteria that reflect real learning.
So, whether you’re listening on your way to work, during a coffee break, or at the end of a long day, this series is here to support you. Let’s get started, embrace the messy, and make some magic.
I’ll meet you right back here on January 3rd—don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss it!
***Have a suggestion for someone Shannon should interview, a question about an episode, or some feedback about the podcast, email Shannon here: [email protected].
Thankyou for listening! Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Find out more about Shannon Schinkel:
https://linktr.ee/ShannonSchinkel
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In this holiday episode, we dive into a Seuss-inspired journey through the magic of feedback and growth. With a lighthearted take on assessment reform, we explore how focusing on progress over perfection can transform the learning experience. Join us for a playful yet meaningful look at how every step forward can light the way!
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When it comes to assessment reform, joy and happiness play distinct but vital roles. Joy sparks excitement in small wins—those moments when students grasp a concept or feedback clicks. Happiness, on the other hand, is the steady satisfaction that grows over time as systems take root, progress becomes evident, and the effort starts to pay off. Join me as we explore how these elements sustain us in the messy, meaningful work of transforming assessments.
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In this episode, we navigate the delicate balance between stress and overwhelm in the journey of assessment reform. Learn how to recognize the signals, manage the challenges, and decide when it’s time to pause and recharge. Whether you’re feeling stuck or seeking clarity, this conversation will guide you through the messiness with compassion and actionable insights.
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Erik M. Francis is returning to the Embrace the Messy Podcast. If you didn’t catch our first conversation, I recommend you head over and check out episode 16. Erik is an international author, educator, presenter, and professional development provider with over 25+ years of experience in education. He is the author of Now That's a Good Question! How to Promote Cognitive Rigor Through Classroom Questioning published by ASCD. He is also the author of Deconstructing Depth of Knowledge: A Method and Model for Deeper Teaching and Learning and the more recent Inquiring Minds Want to Learn Posing Good Questions to Promote Student Inquiry which is the basis of our conversation today. If you love assessment, inquiry, or have a fascination with how students learn you will love this episode!
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Find Erik Francis:
www.maverikeducation.com
X @Maverikedu12
Instagram @maverikedu
***Have a suggestion for someone Shannon should interview, a question about an episode, or some feedback about the podcast, email Shannon here: [email protected].
Thankyou for listening! Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Find out more about Shannon Schinkel:
https://linktr.ee/ShannonSchinkel
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In this episode, we explore the nuanced debate over testing—when it works, when it doesn’t, and how to make it meaningful. Discover how thoughtful test design and preparation can transform assessments from high-stress events into valuable learning experiences. If you’ve ever questioned the role of tests in your classroom, this conversation will provide clarity and actionable ideas. Tune in!
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In this episode, we explore the balance of student voice and choice in the classroom—where students are empowered to make decisions while teachers provide structure and guidance. We'll break down how this approach encourages autonomy without chaos, ensuring students meet learning goals while engaging meaningfully with the material. If you're ready to shift from controller to facilitator, this episode will give you the tools to start. -
In this episode, we're tackling the challenge of helping educators who are deeply rooted in traditional assessment practices take their first step toward reform. We'll explore how small, manageable changes can shift their perspective, even when there's pushback. If you’re ready to learn how empathy and patience can lead to meaningful transformation in the classroom, this episode is for you! Tune in to find out more.
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In this episode, Shannon chats with Ken Williams, a nationally recognized trainer, speaker, coach and consultant in leadership and school culture. A practitioner for nearly three decades, Ken led the improvement efforts at two schools by leveraging the Professional Learning Communities at Work process. Skilled in joining the why of the work to the how of the work, Ken is known for his powerful and engaging combinations of “heart, humor, and hammer.” He is an expert at helping schools build capacity in the collective commitments required of learning for all cultures. His book, RUTHLESS EQUITY, is a must read for any educator who wants to learn more about how to "start with the crown."
To learn more about Ken’s work, visit Unfold The Soul online at www.unfoldthesoul.com, and follow @unfoldthesoul on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIN.
Before the conversation with Ken, Shannon shares a story about a student who needed grace at a time when some might have shut the door on them, and how that proved the power of assessment flexibility and compassion
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Contact Shannon Schinkel about the podcast or consulting:
Website: mygrowthmindset.home.blog
Email: [email protected]
Instagram: @dramaqueenbrc
Threads: @dramaqueenbrc
If you are an educator who exclusively uses the British Columbia curriculum join Shannon's group on Facebook, Beyond Report Cards. https://www.facebook.com/share/g/65juRisqcoN4FmTa/
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In this episode, we're diving into the heart of effective feedback—when to give it, how to give it, and how to ensure it actually leads to student growth. We'll explore why it's not about the amount of feedback but the impact it has, and how timely, actionable comments can make all the difference. Ready to rethink your feedback strategy? Tune in to learn more!
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In this episode, we tackle the challenge of talking to caregivers about assessment reform and shifting away from traditional grades. You'll learn how to break down the benefits of standards-based grading in a way that builds trust and understanding, helping caregivers see how this approach supports their child's growth. Tune in for strategies on how to make these conversations productive and empowering for everyone involved. -
In this episode, we’re uncovering the hidden power of learning habits and why they matter more than traditional work habits. We’ll explore how shifting the focus from behaviors like attendance and homework to the skills behind student success can lead to more meaningful growth. If you’re ready to rethink how you view student progress, this conversation is for you.
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In this episode, Shannon talks with Dr. Peter Liljedahl, a professor of mathematics education at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada. Peter has authored or coauthored numerous books, book chapters, and journal articles on topics central to the teaching and learning of mathematics, and is most known as the author of the global phenomenon Building Thinking Classrooms in Mathematics: 14 Practices for Enhancing Learning (Corwin 2020).
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Find out more about Peter Liljedahl at peterliljedahl.com and buildingthinkingclassrooms.com
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Contact Shannon Schinkel about the podcast or consulting:
Website: mygrowthmindset.home.blog
Email: [email protected]
Instagram: @dramaqueenbrc
Threads: @dramaqueenbrc
If you are an educator who exclusively uses the British Columbia curriculum join Shannon's group on Facebook, Beyond Report Cards. https://www.facebook.com/share/g/65juRisqcoN4FmTa/
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In this episode, we're taking a fresh look at how you organize your grade book, challenging the conventional approach of focusing on task types. Discover how a simple shift toward standards-based categories can create a clearer picture of student learning, without the chaos of grade soup. Tune in to learn how you can rethink your assessment practices and bring intentionality to your grading.
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In this episode, we're shifting the way we think about assessment—from static events to ongoing actions that shape our teaching. We'll explore how subtle changes in approach can transform your classroom, making assessment more dynamic, flexible, and meaningful for both you and your students. Ready to embrace the messiness? Tune in and find out how!
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In this episode, Shannon talks with Ken O’Connor, an internationally recognized expert on grading and reporting practices in education. With years of classroom experience followed by decades of consulting and writing, Ken has become a leading voice advocating for standards-based grading. His work emphasizes the importance of separating academic achievement from behaviours like effort or participation to provide a clearer, more accurate picture of student learning. Known for his practical strategies, Ken has authored multiple books, including three editions of A Repair Kit for Grading, which helps educators rethink traditional grading systems. He has worked closely with the Canadian Assessment for Learning Network in which he is a co-founder and schools and districts worldwide, helping them implement effective, fair assessment practices. He is my assessment hero, one of the kindest, most thoughtful people I have ever met. Honestly, in the moments when I have thought to myself, why am I am on this grading reform journey, Ken’s books, interviews and presentations have kept me going.
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Find out more about Ken O'Connor --> https://www.oconnorgrading.com/
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Contact Shannon Schinkel about the podcast or consulting:
Website: mygrowthmindset.home.blog
Email: [email protected]
Instagram: @dramaqueenbrc
Threads: @dramaqueenbrc
If you are an educator who exclusively uses the British Columbia curriculum join Shannon's group on Facebook, Beyond Report Cards. https://www.facebook.com/share/g/65juRisqcoN4FmTa/
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I’m excited to introduce 'Messy Minutes: Assessment Edition,' dropping every Friday.
These micro episodes will be short, to the point, and all me—no guests. We’re talking 5-10 minutes nuggets where I’ll share my favorite assessment strategies, break down some of that tricky assessment stuff, answer a burning question a listener emails me, or maybe just give an exceptionally long shoutout to other podcasts that have helped me on my journey. It’s all about embracing the messy side of assessment, and trust me, it can get messy.
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In this episode, Shannon talks with George Couros, speaker and author of The Innovator’s Mindset, Because of a Teacher and What Makes a Great Principal. George worked at all school levels, from K-12 as a teacher, technology facilitator, and school and district administrator, and is currently an Adjunct Instructor with the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania. He is also the podcast host of the Innovator's Mindset Podcast.
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Find out more about George Couros at https://georgecouros.com
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Contact Shannon Schinkel about the podcast or consulting:
Website: mygrowthmindset.home.blog
Email: [email protected]
Instagram: @dramaqueenbrc
Threads: @dramaqueenbrc
If you are an educator who exclusively uses the British Columbia curriculum join Shannon's group on Facebook, Beyond Report Cards. https://www.facebook.com/share/g/65juRisqcoN4FmTa/
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