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This week, we catch up with Kyle Miko, co-founder and Chief Marketing Officer of VirtuOx Cardio Sleep, a leader in at-home respiratory, sleep, and cardiac diagnostics.
The impact of sleep health on overall well-being and VirtuOx's mission to address it.VirtuOx's approach to educating physicians and fostering strong relationships.Strategies for effective territory management and how data informs decision-making.The role of technology, including Map My Customers, in improving sales efficiency.Insights on servant leadership and the value of having a clear 'why' in your business.
Kyle shares how VirtuOx is making a difference by focusing on sleep health and patient well-being, guided by the company's mission to "restore the breath of life." He delves into VirtuOx's go-to-market strategy, centered on educating physicians about sleep and cardiac diagnostics, and offers insights into how his team uses data and technology to optimize their sales process.
Kyle also explains how VirtuOx integrates technology into their workflow to better analyze data, identify target physicians, and streamline territory management. Throughout the conversation, Kyle emphasizes the importance of servant leadership, having a clear purpose, and leveraging healthcare CRM solutions to drive success in field sales.
Key Moments:Tune in to this insightful episode and discover how you can harness data and leadership to drive growth in your own organization.
About Our Guest
Kyle Miko is the Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of VirtuOx Cardio Sleep, the world's largest provider of at-home respiratory, sleep, and cardiac diagnostics. With over two decades of experience, Kyle is known for his leadership approach—combining data-driven strategy with a deep commitment to improving patient outcomes. Kyle's leadership at VirtuOx reflects a dedication to servant leadership and a clear sense of purpose, which has been key in guiding the company’s growth and impact in the field of medical diagnostics. Connect with Kyle on Linkedin!
Listen to The Field Sales Leadership Guide anywhere you find podcasts, or at mapmycustomers.com/podcast
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In this episode, JT reconnects with Joe McDonald, VP of Sales at Jasper Engines, to explore the role of data in driving sales success. Joe shares how Jasper Engines transformed their approach to territory management, optimized customer interactions, and implemented data-driven decision-making. They discuss practical strategies for managing retiring sales reps, maximizing market penetration, and fostering a culture of accountability within the sales team. Tune in for actionable insights on leveraging data to build winning sales teams.
Highlights:
The Role of Data in Driving Leadership Decisions at Jasper EnginesStrategic Market Penetration and Territory ManagementManaging Retiring Reps with Innovative Pilot ProgramsDefining and Tracking Sales Presentations for Maximum ImpactAdvice for Sales Leaders on Data-Driven Sales ProcessesAbout our guest:
As VP of Sales at Jasper Engines, Joe McDonald has led his team through significant growth, using data-driven insights and forward-thinking leadership to drive sales success. With decades of experience, Joe has a deep understanding of the challenges sales leaders face and how to overcome them. Don’t miss his expert advice in this episode. Connect with Joe on Linkedin!
And learn more at mapmycustomers.com/podcast
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We are joined by Todd Caponi, a sales leader and the mind behind The Transparency Sale and The Transparent Sales Leader. Todd dives deep into his unique strategies for building successful sales teams through transparent methodologies and data-driven strategy.
Discover the power of embracing losses as learning opportunities, leveraging structured frameworks to maximize revenue, and the importance of understanding customer behaviors. Todd also highlights the need for effective CRM tools and a data-driven approach to ensure long-term success in sales leadership.
Episode Highlights:
00:21 Meet Todd Caponi01:37 The Power of Transparency in Sales02:46 Implementing a Sales Framework04:25 Understanding and Leveraging Reviews09:40 Qualifying Opportunities and Pipeline Management20:52 The Five F's of Maximizing Revenue24:18 Building a Predictable Sales Culture25:00 The Importance of CRM in Sales28:34 Overcoming CRM Challenges43:15 Leveraging Customer InsightsAbout our guest:
Todd Caponi is a celebrated sales leader, speaker, and author of the award-winning bestseller The Transparency Sale. His latest book, The Transparent Sales Leader, delves into how transparency and decision science can enhance sales performance. Having led two companies to successful exits, Todd now leads Sales Melon LLC, where he teaches revenue organizations how to maximize capacity. Additionally, he hosts "The Sales History Podcast," where he shares insights on the evolution of the sales profession.
Connect with Todd on LinkedIn and visit toddcaponi.com for more!
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Ben Hartmere, CEO of Map My Customers joins the show as we explore the changing landscape of field sales, highlighting the challenges field sales leaders face and the innovative strategies successful teams employ.
Ben shares his expertise, emphasizing the importance of a robust system of record, the cultural shift towards data-driven sales processes, and actionable insights on optimizing territory management. Whether you're a sales leader or a rep wanting to stay ahead of the curve, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways.Key Moments
00:00 Introduction00:43 Unique Challenges and Tech Evolution in Field Sales03:26 Importance of Data and Predictability in Sales04:56 Adoption of Technology in Field Sales06:32 Unique Needs of Field Sales Teams08:34 Overcoming CRM Implementation Challenges12:34 Maximizing Revenue with Data13:50 Leadership and Culture in Sales Teams
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Welcome back to another engaging episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide Podcast. In this special episode, we dive into a long-overdue conversation with our Founder and Chief Product Strategy Officer, Matthew Sniff. As a passionate advocate for those who identify market needs and take actionable steps to solve them, Matthew shares his entrepreneurial journey and insights.
Join your host as he navigates through the fascinating story of Matthew's career, from his analytical mindset to his Rubik's Cube mastery. Discover the origins of Map My Customers, a venture sparked by a simple request from Matthew's father to visualize his flooring business's extensive clientele. What began as a scrappy prototype soon evolved into a successful application, meeting the needs of individual sales reps and eventually scaling to address the complexities of larger sales teams.
As Matthew reflects on the challenges and triumphs of entrepreneurship, gain valuable insights into the evolution of Map My Customers and its impact on the field sales industry. From storm chasing to building a thriving business, Matthew’s journey is filled with anecdotes, lessons, and a touch of friendly banter about fantasy football and sports team loyalties.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation that explores the intersection of innovation, entrepreneurship, and the exciting future ahead for Map My Customers. Take advantage of this opportunity to get to know the visionary leader behind the scenes and gain a deeper understanding of the company's commitment to revolutionizing outside field sales.
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
The Old Way For Outside Sales [9:00]Customer Feedback Drove The Right Solution [12:00]Staying Close To The Customer To Build The Right Solution [19:00]
Matthew Sniff
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JT RimbleyConnect With Map My Customers
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Welcome to another insightful episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide Podcast! In this episode, Mary Keough is joined by Justin Lu, Head of Customer Success at Map My Customers, as they delve into the crucial topic of integrating technology within your company. With co-host JT unavailable, Justin steps in to share his expertise on how Map My Customers can seamlessly integrate with various technologies, especially focusing on the challenges faced by field sales teams.
The conversation kicks off by highlighting the shift in the importance of integrations as technology becomes more ubiquitous. Instead of merely checking boxes for features, the focus is now on how technology aligns and works with existing systems in your company. Justin and Mary explore the impact of these integrations on outside sales teams and how they enhance the efficiency of processes.
They dive into four key ways companies can integrate their tech stack effectively:
Native Integration (Gold Standard): Justin explains the advantages of native integration, emphasizing how it streamlines the process by having the software vendor do the work. Matt My Customers offers native integrations with popular CRMs like Salesforce, Zoho, Dynamics, and HubSpot.Open API (Silver Standard): Justin discusses the flexibility of using an Open API, which allows integration with virtually any system that supports API connections. While it provides robust technological solutions, it may require programming knowledge and resources to set up.SFTP or CSV Upload (Bronze Standard): This method involves manually uploading data or automating the process through the Secure File Transfer Protocol. Justin shares that it's a stable solution with a daily frequency, providing a middle ground between native integration and simpler methods like CSV uploads.Zapier (Convenient Workaround): Justin introduces Zapier, a tool that enables API connections with minimal programming knowledge. While convenient for certain tasks, it may have limitations and could be less suitable for complex integrations with larger systems.The discussion emphasizes the importance of getting buy-in from the start, ensuring ease of use for sales reps, and the crucial role of managers in enforcing CRM usage. Justin concludes by highlighting the value of a well-integrated tech stack in driving sales efficiency and revenue growth.
Tune in to gain valuable insights into navigating the integration landscape and optimizing technology for your field sales team's success. Don't miss out on practical tips and strategies shared by Justin and Mary in this information-packed episode!
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Double data entry is the death knell of CRM adoption [4:30]Tech stack integrations don't have to be complicated. [13:30]Integrating data silos helps the whole company [24:00]Connect with the guest
Justin LuConnect with the hosts
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Welcome to another insightful episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide Podcast. In this episode, JT exchanges key findings with Mary on his recent series of ride-alongs. These ride-alongs provide valuable insights into the challenges faced by outside sales reps and how sales leaders can address them.
The overarching themes discovered during the ride-alongs include:
Poor KPIs for Outside Sales Reps: Some sales leaders may be giving ineffective Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) to their outside sales reps, leading to wasted time, expenses, and missed opportunities.Difficulty Acquiring New Business: Outside sales reps often face challenges when tasked with acquiring new business in their territories, especially in industries with steady, established customer bases. The difficulty lies in finding new prospects and converting them into customers.Underutilization of Systems: Many reps are not effectively using the systems in place, such as CRMs or sales enablement tools. This may be due to the tools not being perceived as valuable or easy to use.The effects of these challenges are significant, including a lack of valuable data needed for better decision-making at the rep, manager, and leadership levels.
JT shares examples from his ride-alongs, emphasizing the importance of strategic coaching, efficient use of time, and the need for valuable data to drive revenue. Mary and JT discuss how the absence of a robust tracking system can hinder the sales process, drawing parallels with a manufacturing line that lacks stages for improvement.
The episode concludes with the analogy of practicing golf swings, highlighting the importance of practicing the right things at the right time and using data to guide effective coaching and strategic management.
If you're a sales leader looking to optimize your team's performance and address these challenges head-on, this episode provides valuable insights and actionable strategies. Tune in and take your field sales leadership to the next level!
Celebrate DIS-Qualifying as much as Qualifying new accounts [9:00]Stop making your reps drive through haystacks to find needles [18:00]When sales output starts failing - how are you diagnosing the problem? [25:30]
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Welcome to another engaging episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide Podcast. Host Mary and JT discuss the crucial connection between Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) and your go-to-market strategy. The hosts uncover the essential role KPIs play in optimizing your sales team's day and discover the pitfalls of relying solely on sales quotas. Whether you're new to tracking KPIs or looking to refine your existing system, this episode provides valuable insights and real-world examples to help your team thrive. From tracking sample drops to heat maps, and even the importance of mobile-friendly CRMs, our hosts guide you through the process of identifying and measuring what truly matters for your sales team's success.
You should get the reps' buy-in before rolling out KPIs [11:00]Flooring samples = Revenue?! [15:30]Bad KPIs lead to Bad Results [20:00]
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Welcome to another insightful episode of the Field Sales Leadership Podcast.
Aging and Retiring Workforce: The hosts discuss the challenges companies face when top-performing, tenured sales reps retire and how this transition affects relationships and revenue.Younger Salespeople and Technology Expectations: The conversation centers on the expectations of younger sales professionals who grew up with technology and how they view data and technology as integral to their work.Leaders Scrutinizing Outside Sales Activities: The hosts explore how leadership increasingly analyzes outside sales activities and how data plays a critical role in decision-making.Desire for Data: The episode delves into the desire for data among sales teams and the importance of collecting and leveraging data effectively.
In this episode, host JT Rimbey welcomes co-host Mary Keough to discuss the evolving landscape of outside sales. They dive into four major trends impacting the field:
Throughout the discussion, JT and Mary emphasized prioritizing making data tools easy and valuable for sales reps to ensure seamless integration into their day-to-day tasks.They also stress that starting with the sales rep's experience in mind is crucial, as it ultimately leads to better data collection and improved results.
Join JT and Mary as they dissect these trends and share valuable insights to navigate the ever-changing world of outside sales.LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Top trends in outside sales org [1:20]Forcing reps to use an ineffective CRM breeds bad data[15:15]Without the right data, outside sales leaders can’t do proactive coaching [19:10]Connect with the hosts
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Welcome to another insightful episode of the Field Sales Leadership Podcast.
In this episode, Mary Keough, Head of Marketing and JT Rimbey, Head of Sales, discuss the intricacies of measuring the Return on Investment (ROI) of Customer Relationship Management (CRM) systems. They emphasize the need to tailor ROI measurement to specific business goals and shed light on the importance of ease of use in driving CRM adoption, especially for outside sales teams.
Mary, draws on her extensive marketing background in various industries, offering valuable insights into the importance of tracking CRM ROI. She emphasizes the need to measure ROI in a way that aligns with the specific goals and dynamics of each business, debunking the misconception that a one-size-fits-all approach works for CRM adoption.JT, a seasoned expert in the field of sales, underlines the significance of ease of use when it comes to CRM systems, particularly for outside sales teams. He highlights how an intuitive CRM interface can drive adoption and generate the necessary data for strategic decision-making.
Together, they share anecdotes and experiences, showcasing the nuances of CRM success and the role it plays in boosting sales, optimizing territories, and enhancing customer relationships.
Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of how CRM ROI can be maximized in the field sales landscape.
Connect with Mary Keough and JT Rimbey on LinkedIn to continue the conversation and share your own CRM ROI experiences.
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Same type of CRM, same outcome [5:00]What happens when you choose the right CRM [13:30]Measuring what matters in outside sales [16:30]Connect with the hosts
Mary KeoughJT RimbleyConnect With Map My Customers
On Twitter On Facebook On LinkedInSubscribe to FIELD SALES LEADERSHIP GUIDE
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Welcome to another insightful episode of the Field Sales Leadership Podcast. In this episode, our hosts Mary Keough and JT Rimbey dive into a discussion about the evolving landscape of sales, especially in the B2B technology space. They explore the challenges faced by companies and the necessity of adapting to changing circumstances, especially with the onset of an economic slowdown and talks of a recession.
They present compelling case studies from various industries, showcasing the importance of understanding the necessity of data and processes within an organization. They emphasize how leadership plays a crucial role in recognizing the need for change and providing valuable solutions for their sales teams. From non-profit organizations to medical device companies, each case study illustrates how strategic changes can significantly impact sales efficiency and effectiveness.
Tune in to learn more about the vital role of data and processes in the world of outside sales and how adapting to innovative solutions can drive success in a dynamic market. Join Mary and JT as they unravel customer stories and shed light on the evolving sales landscape, offering valuable insights for both outside sales leaders.
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Put the outside sales rep first when vetting new tech [4:30]Administrative straws are breaking your sales org's back. [9:00]The secret sauce to getting better field sales data. [24:00]
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Welcome to another episode of the Field Sales Guide Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we have a special guest, Austin Green, the SW Regional VP for Jasper Engines and Transmissions based out of Arizona. We're excited to have Austin on the podcast because he's a data-driven leader in the world of field sales, a rarity in an industry often dominated by relationship-based approaches.
Austin understands the critical importance of moving beyond spreadsheets and handwritten notes in field sales. He recognizes that relying solely on personal relationships can lead to revenue loss in the long run. We'll delve into Austin's journey into the field of sales, which started with his father's transmission shop in Indiana and eventually led him to his current role as VP at Jasper Engines.
We also explore the concept of "coaching tips" and how they've integrated data-driven coaching into their sales processes. Austin shares how they leverage customer engagement data and coaching tips within MMC's platform to provide real-time feedback to their sales reps and help them continually improve.
Additionally, we discuss the changing landscape of the field sales industry, including the shift towards servicing larger fleets and regional businesses due to factors like rising interest rates and vehicle costs. Austin emphasizes the enduring value of face-to-face customer interactions in field sales, highlighting that data should enhance, not replace, personal connections.
Finally, Austin shares insights into how Jasper Engines and Transmissions has embraced data and analytics, and he offers valuable advice for sales leaders who may be hesitant to adopt data-driven approaches. He encourages leaders to use data to understand what their reps are actively doing and to probe whether their existing strategies are working effectively.
We hope you find this episode insightful and informative as we dive into the world of data-driven field sales leadership with Austin Green. Stay tuned for more episodes of the Field Sales Guide Leadership Podcast.
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Right tech = easier job. For reps AND managers [14:18]Using data to be a better player-coach [28:22]Data improves your sales process... when used the right way? [39:24]Connect with the guest
Austin GreenJasper Engines and TransmissionsConnect with the hosts
Mary KeoughJT RimbleyConnect With Map My Customers
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In this episode of the Field Sales Guide Leadership podcast, hosts JT Rimbey and Mary Keough tackle the crucial topic of selecting the ideal CRM for outside sales teams. They highlight the common challenges these teams encounter when adopting and effectively using CRM systems. Mary introduces the core focus of the episode: the seven key attributes to prioritize when choosing a CRM tailored for outside sales.
Mobile First PlatformCustomer Lifecycle ManagementLead GenerationMapping and RoutingNative IntegrationsSimplified OnboardingOngoing SupportThroughout the discussion, JT and Mary draw from their sales leadership expertise, offering insights and examples relevant to each attribute. Their advice aids sales leaders in selecting CRM solutions that align with the unique requirements of outside sales teams, mitigating challenges associated with CRM adoption.
LISTEN IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN…
Does your CRM surface net new business opportunities? [15:20]How native integrations bring your CRM data to life? [25:45]Do you need a CRM provider who owns the long-term partnership? [36:12]
Mary KeoughJT Rimbley
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Subscribe to FIELD SALES LEADERSHIP GUIDE
The outside sales leadership world tends to lack a crucial element: process. In this episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast, hosts JT Rimbey and Mary Keough are joined by Joe Anderson, Director of Field Sales at Royal Brass & Hose. They discuss Joe’s role in transforming the sales culture at Royal Brass and Hose and the importance of technology in modernizing and improving the sales process.
Joe’s career journey in sales [02:18]Royal Brass & Hose’s customer base [06:05]Changing the sales culture [09:11]Identifying underperforming reps [14:21]Why did you win this deal? [19:19]CRM adoption barriers [28:01]
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
Royal BrassLuke Wittenbraker | LinkedInBuilding a sales process from the ground up with Luke Wittenbraker - Field Sales Leadership Guide
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In this episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast, host Mary Keough interviews Justin Lu, Head of Customer Success at Map My Customers, to learn more about how the software integrates with an organization's tech stack and what customer support looks like. The discussion goes beyond the typical software demo to explore the details of Map My Customers.
What is customer success? [03:51]The onboarding process [04:48]Account setup and integration [14:02]Training new customers [17:14]Having a Customer Success Manager [22:20]Ensuring MMC is fully integrated [26:37]
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
Map My Customers
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Connect With Map My CustomersSubscribe to FIELD SALES LEADERSHIP GUIDE
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Joe’s career journey to Jasper [01:43]The evolution of Jasper’s sales process [04:26]Hierarchy of sales leadership [10:11]The statistics that matter [13:05]Adoption of technology [19:14]Devices and connection issues [26:44]
Being a top performer as a sales rep doesn’t necessarily translate to being a great team leader. In today’s episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast, we talk with Joe McDonald, Vice President of Sales at Jasper Engines & Transmissions. Joe sets the bar high, has the absolute respect of his team, and leads leaders to hold people accountable. With outside sales, it is imperative to have a repeatable, scalable, and predictable process, and Joe has done just that.
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
Jasper Engines
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Outside sales leaders often don’t have a well-defined sales process. Rather than implementing a process, they rely on a few great salespeople. In this episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast, co-hosts JT Rimbey and Mary Keough discuss the need for a sales process that grows and replicates great salespeople.
Are you replicating great salespeople? [01:06]The value of a well-defined sales process [06:42]Measuring what matters [10:44]Optimization and scaling [16:04]
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
Joe McDonald - Aftermarket for Life - Jasper Engines & Transmissions | LinkedInLuke Wittenbraker - Marketing and Sales Director - Mactech On-Site | LinkedIn
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On Twitter On Facebook On LinkedIn
Connect With Map My CustomersSubscribe to FIELD SALES LEADERSHIP GUIDE
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As someone who closely observes the impact of CRM rollout on outside sales teams, I am passionate about its success. In the latest episode of the Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast, my co-host Mary Keough and I discuss the “Crawl, Walk, Run” approach to seamlessly introduce new technology that is both valuable and user-friendly for your team. I’m your host JT Rimbey. Tune in to learn about the challenges of embracing new processes and how to support your outside reps during the adoption process.
You CAN teach an old dog new tricks [02:02]Data is difficult, but there is a solution [08:32]Boosting Sales Software Usage & Engagement [11:47]Integration with other systems [13:02]Optimization mode [20:28]
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
Luke Wittenbraker - Marketing and Sales Director - Mactech On-Site | LinkedInJoe McDonald - Aftermarket for Life - Jasper Engines & Transmissions | LinkedIn
Resources & People Mentioned
On LinkedIn
Connect with Mary Keough
On TwitterOn FacebookOn LinkedIn
Connect With Map My CustomersSubscribe to FIELD SALES LEADERSHIP GUIDE
Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK
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In this episode, JT and Mary are joined by Luke Wittenbraker who discusses his experience as the son of the boss and Sales Director at Mactech.
Luke talks about his journey from marketer to salesperson to sales leader at the family business. He explains how he had to adapt to his role and the dynamics of being a young sales director in a team of older salespeople.
Luke emphasizes the importance of understanding the pain points of the sales team and developing a process that everyone can succeed at. Luke describes how he studied and documented their sales process, consolidating the different approaches into one cohesive strategy. He believes in sharing what works for one person and spreading it across the team rather than letting everyone operate in silos.Luke also discusses his approach to earning respect and building relationships with his team. He mentions his background of working in the company during summers, which helped him gain some respect within the manufacturing organization.
We hope you enjoy listening as much as we enjoyed recording!
Follow Luke on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-wittenbraker-2bb5368/
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Choosing the right CRM for the business is an important decision. When the right CRM tool is chosen, sales reps gain valuable insights and are more productive than without it. When reps are seeing this kind of value from the CRM, leaders can glean invaluable data from it. Andrea Eckberg evaluated and adopted Thibaut Design’s first CRM, and her team is thrilled with the lead generation opportunity, account segmentation capabilities and efficiency of planning.
“Ultimately, what we found is a CRM, especially one as simple to use as Map My Customers, gives our reps time back in their day. Anyone who's been in sales knows that the most valuable thing we have is time, and we never have enough of it. So, to be able to give back some time during the day to help make our team more efficient to help their ability in the market to make quick decisions to be in the right place at the right time with the right information at their fingertips,” says Andrea Eckberg from Thibaut Design.
Learn about Andrea Eckberg’s approach to adopting a new CRM and the value it has brought to her team. Discover the role their CRM has played in onboarding new sales reps.
About our sponsorFollow JT Rimbey on LinkedIn or send a message
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About the PodcastWe've lined up for you some of the smartest movers and shakers in sales leadership to share their formulas for success and the tricks of the trade. The Field Sales Leadership Guide podcast discusses with experienced and successful sales leaders what works and what doesn't in the sales profession. Listen in as we tap into high performing sales leaders and their passion for field sales. Join us as we pull back the curtain giving you actionable insights and strategies that you can use with your sales team.
About the SponsorTraditional CRM aren’t designed with outside sales reps in mind. They're too cumbersome, complex and time consuming and lack mobile-friendly options. Use Map My Customers as the CRM of record or as the tip of the spear for your existing CRM. Designed specifically for outside sales reps, Map My Customers is a mobile-first platform that strategically segments accounts, provides optimized routing and mapping tools, activity logging and much more. Get a free hands-on tour at https://smarturl.it/mmc-trial.
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