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Shortly after publication, a transcript of this episode will be published on SpecialEd.fm
Host: Dana Jonson
Guest: Michaell MagrutscheIntroduction:
A fascinating exploration of creativity and systemic thinking in education, featuring insights from Michaell Magrutsche, an advocate for integrating human-centric approaches within educational systems.
Discussion Highlights:
The importance of recognizing and nurturing individual uniqueness within educational and systemic frameworks was emphasized, with Michaell sharing insights from his personal experiences as a neurodiverse individual.
Michaell advocated for a human-centric approach to education, critiquing traditional systems that prioritize rote learning over creativity and individual strengths.
The conversation covered societal constructs like gender and age, advocating for an educational approach that sees beyond these labels to the individual underneath.
Michaell's journey highlighted the limitations of traditional education systems in accommodating diverse learning needs and the need for systemic change.
Resources:
My Hub: https://MICHAELLM.com
The Smart of Art Podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/michaellart
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellart
Instagram: https://instagram.com/thesmartofart/
Threads: https://www.threads.net/@thesmartofart
Twitter: https://twitter.com/michaellart
YouTube Videos: https://goo.gl/gPM7cq
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Michaellcoach
My Music: www.soundcloud.com/michaellart
My Books: https://goo.gl/tpDQk3
Call to Action: Spread the Word of the Podcast
Share the Episode on Social Media: Utilize your platforms to share the episode or key takeaways. Whether it's Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram, your share can spark interest and bring this valuable content to a wider audience. Use hashtags like #EducationInnovation, #CreativityInLearning, and #HumanCentricEducation to increase visibility.
Discuss the Episode in Online Forums and Communities: Join discussions in relevant online communities, such as educational forums, creativity workshops, and social media groups focused on education reform or personal development. Sharing your insights or how the episode influenced your thoughts can inspire others to listen and engage.
Recommend the Podcast to Friends and Colleagues: Word-of-mouth remains a powerful tool for spreading ideas. If you found the content impactful, discuss it with friends, family, and colleagues who have an interest in education, creativity, or personal development. Personal recommendations can encourage others to explore the episode and potentially introduce them to new concepts and perspectives.
Note:
This episode serves as a call to embrace creativity and individual uniqueness in education, challenging conventional norms and advocating for a more inclusive, adaptive learning environment.
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Soon after publication a transcript will be posted on SpecialEd.fm
Host: Dana Jonson
Guest: Dr. Kyle DaigleIntroduction:
This episode of "Special Ed on Special Ed" features Dr. Kyle Daigle, an expert in neurological rehabilitation and child development. Dr. Daigle discusses the fascinating world of photobiomodulation, its impact on neurological disorders, and its application in treating children with disabilities such as ADHD and autism.
Memorable Quotes:
"Photo bio modulation means changing life with light." ~ Dr. Kyle Daigle, explaining the essence of photobiomodulation during the podcast.
"We're not treated from a nutritional deficiency standpoint." ~ Dr. Kyle Daigle, discussing his personal health journey and the shortcomings of traditional medical treatments in addressing nutritional deficiencies.
"Different colors have different benefits... Red light therapy is phenomenal for just basically even helping out with sleep." ~ Dr. Kyle Daigle, describing the benefits of red light therapy in the context of therapeutic applications and its impact on various health conditions.
"Primitive reflex integration work on myself was completely life-changing." ~ Dr. Kyle Daigle, sharing his personal transformation after integrating primitive reflex work into his own life, highlighting the profound impact it had on him.
Discussion Highlights:
The significance of light therapy, or photobiomodulation, in neurological rehabilitation.
The relationship between light exposure, brain function, and childhood developmental disorders.
Dr. Daigle's personal journey from struggling with ADHD and allergies to becoming a pioneering therapist.
The critical role of primitive reflexes in child development and their impact on conditions like autism and ADHD.
Insights into Dr. Daigle's innovative approach, including the development of NeuroSage, a software that combines therapeutic exercises with engaging video game elements.
Specific Resources Mentioned:
Books:
"Cracking the Code of Autism" by Dr. Kyle Daigle: A guide for parents to understand the neurological aspects of autism and find strategies for support.
Websites:
Dr. Kyle Daigle's personal website: Dr. Kyle Daigle.com - A comprehensive resource for information about his work, photobiomodulation, and access to his book and NeuroSage software.
Neuro Solution LLC: A clinic offering innovative therapies for neurological rehabilitation.
Social Media and Online Platforms:
Instagram & Facebook: Dr. Kyle Daigle's active pages for updates and insights.
YouTube: Dr. Kyle Daigle's channel for educational content.
Contact Information:
Phone Number for Neuro Solution LLC: +1 337-499-3162
Call to Action:
Share the Episode on Social Media: Share this episode link on you social media platforms to spread awareness about the benefits of photobiomodulation and Dr. Daigle's innovative approaches to treating neurological disorders.
Leave a Review: Leave a positive review on your podcast platform if you found the episode informative and helpful.
Engage with Content Online: Follow Dr. Kyle Daigle on social media, subscribe to his YouTube channel, and visit his website for more information. Engaging with his content online can provide ongoing support and promote the dissemination of valuable resources and information to a broader audience.
Note:
The conversation delves into the cutting-edge area of neurological therapy, emphasizing the importance of non-traditional approaches to treating complex conditions. Dr. Daigle’s dedication to advancing treatment options offers hope and new possibilities for children and families navigating the challenges of disabilities. -
Saknas det avsnitt?
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Shortly after publication, a transcript for this episode will be posted on SpecialEd.fm
Advocacy Insights with Diana Fannon
Host: Dana Jonson
Guest: Diana Fannon, Special Educaiton Director and School Psychologist
Introduction:
Dana Jonson introduces Diana Fannon, a Director of Special Education and a former school psychologist. Diana shares her personal journey with epilepsy and how it has influenced her approach to advocacy and education.
Resources Mentioned:
Disability Ed Pros Website: www.disabilityedpros.com
Free Webinar on Demystifying the Path to Eligibility: www.disabilityedpros.com/webinar
Instagram: @DisabilityEdPros
Call to Action:
Share the Episode with a Friend: Help spread the valuable insights from this episode by sharing it with friends or family members navigating the special education system.
Leave a Review: Support the podcast by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps reach more listeners and provide support to more families.
Follow Disability Ed Pros on Social Media: Stay updated with the latest resources, tips, and support by following Diana Fannon's initiative, Disability Ed Pros, on Instagram.
Note:This episode serves as a comprehensive resource for parents and guardians in the special education process, offering Diana Fannon's expert insights and personal experiences to guide and empower families.
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Shortly after publication, a transcript of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website https://SpecialEd.fm.
Host: Dana Jonson
INTRODUCTION:
Guest: Dr. Alison EscalanteIn this enlightening episode, Dana Jonson is joined by Dr. Alison Escalante, a board-certified pediatrician renowned for her innovative approach to parenting and child development. With over two decades of experience, Dr. Escalante shares invaluable insights on overcoming the challenges of parenting, particularly within the neurodiverse community. The conversation delves into the intricacies of ADHD, sensory sensitivity, and the societal pressures that shape parenting practices.
MEMORABLE QUOTES:"Just because they can do it sometimes doesn't mean they can do it all the time." - Alison Escalante, on the expectations placed on neurodiverse children.
"Everything I try as a parent, everything I start, is a learning opportunity." - Alison Escalante, discussing her approach to parenting and learning from mistakes.
DISCUSSION HIGHLIGHTS:The importance of understanding neurodiversity and its impact on children and their behavior.
Strategies for managing sensory sensitivities and meltdowns in neurodiverse children.
The role of societal expectations in shaping parenting practices and the challenges they present.
An introduction to the "Sigh, See, Start" method developed by Dr. Escalante, aimed at empowering parents to better meet their children's needs amidst the "parenting shitstorm" of criticism and anxiety.
RESOURCES MENTIONED:Book: "Sigh, See, Start" by Dr. Alison Escalante. A science-based, three-step method to overcome the overwhelming pressures of parenting.
Website: https://seesighstart.com - For more information on Dr. Escalante's work, additional resources, and access to a free chapter of her book.
CALL TO ACTION:Share this episode with a friend or two
Write a review for us
Subscribe so you don't miss an episode
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Shortly after publication, a TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website https://SpecialEd.fm.
Join host Dana Jonson and Dr. Tamara Soles, a renowned child psychologist and parent coach, for an insightful conversation on "Transforming Parenting - Attachment, Neurobiology, and Thriving Children." Dive into the world of parenting neurodivergent children, the importance of attachment in parenting, and the role of parental self-reflection. Dr. Soles shares her wealth of experience in early childhood mental health, highlighting the impact of attachment and neurobiology on child development. Key quotes from Dr. Soles emphasize understanding neurodiversity and the essence of attachment beyond physical closeness. Listeners are encouraged to explore Dr. Tamara's website for valuable resources. This episode offers a comprehensive understanding of modern parenting techniques, focusing on neurodiversity and psychological child-rearing aspects.
Guest: Dr. Tamara Soles (Child Psychologist, Parent Coach, Founder of The Secure Child Center for Families and Children)
Host: Dana Jonson
Discussion Highlights:
Attachment in Parenting: Dr. Tamara discusses attunement and responsiveness in developing secure attachments.
Parenting Neurodivergent Children: Strategies for understanding and supporting the unique needs of neurodivergent children.
Role of Parental Self-Reflection: Emphasizing parents' need to reflect on their upbringing and emotional responses.
Early Childhood Mental Health: Exploring mental health's impact on long-term development in early childhood.
Memorable Quotes:
"Children are wired differently, and we need to identify their needs for effective parenting."
- This quote is from Dr. Tamara Soles, discussing the importance of understanding neurodiversity in children for effective parenting.
"Attachment is about connection and responsiveness, not just physical closeness."
- This quote, also by Dr. Tamara Soles, addresses common misconceptions about attachment parenting, emphasizing emotional connection and responsiveness.
"Our own inner children often come up in our parenting journey."
- In this quote, Dr. Tamara Soles speaks about the significance of parental self-reflection in the parenting process.
Call to Action:
Visit Dr. Tamara's website (https://drtamarasoles.com/freebies/) for free resources on parenting and supporting neurodivergent children.
Other resources:
Website https://drtamarasoles.com
Free PDF 4 Hidden Reasons Your Child is Melting Down https://drtamarasoles.com/meltdowns/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drtamarasoles
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-tamara-soles/
Note: This episode offers a comprehensive understanding of parenting techniques that cater to neurodiversity, with Dr. Tamara's expertise providing fresh perspectives on nurturing thriving children.
[After Publication Note: A transcript of this episode will be available at https://SpecialEd.fm]
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Shortly after publication, a TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website, https://SpecialEd.fm.
Episode Title:
Giftedness and Beyond: Navigating Neurodivergence with Dr. Matt ZakreskiGuest: Dr. Matt Zakreski
Host: Dana JonsonThis episode offers a deep dive into understanding and supporting neurodivergent children. Dr. Matt's expertise and empathetic approach make this a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone interested in neurodiversity.
Introduction:
Dana Jonson introduces Dr. Matt Zakreski, a passionate advocate for the neurodivergent community.
Dr. Matt's unique approach combines personal experiences with professional expertise in psychology.
Memorable Quotes:
"Labels are powerful. It matters that you're a zebra, not a weird horse."
~ Dr. Matt on the importance of understanding and embracing neurodiversity."If I ever got the chance to do this work, I wanted to work with kids like me."
~ Dr. Matt discusses his motivation to help neurodivergent children.”"It's like everybody else got the script, but you didn't."
~ Dr. Matt on the challenges neurodivergent individuals face in social settings."Kids survive, but not all of them do."
~ Dr. Matt highlights the urgent need for appropriate support for neurodivergent children.Discussion Highlights:
Performance Cliff: Discussing the challenges gifted children face when academic demands exceed their capabilities.
Masking in Neurodiversity: Exploring the concept of neurodivergent individuals hiding their true selves.
Educational Strategies: Emphasizing the need for individualized education to cater to neurodivergent students.
Dr. Matt's Mission:Co-founder of The Neurodiversity Collective, which offers therapy, IQ testing, coaching, and consulting specifically for the neurodivergent community.
Advocates for practical strategies to aid in the development and learning of neurodivergent children.
Call to Action:
Encouraging listeners to learn more about The Neurodiversity Collective and its services by visiting their website: https://www.theneurodiversitycollective.com/
FLASHBACK:
Check out a blast from the past: How Exceptional Are You?
In this episode I speak with Cheryl Viirand, super-mom and co-founder of Cajal Academy, a private special education school in CT designed for 2e children. We discuss the unique challenges and gifts of twice-exceptional (2e) children, exploring strategies for educating them in a way that addresses both their high intellectual capabilities and their individual learning needs. We also delve into the role of neuroplasticity in developing programs tailored to 2e children, highlighting the importance of creating an educational environment that nurtures their gifts while supporting their challenges. -
Episode Show Notes
Shortly after publication, a transcript of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website https://SpecialEd.fm.
Topic: Essential Social and Career Skills for Teens in Today's Digital EraThis episode delves into crucial social and career skills that teens and young adults must navigate in our highly digitalized world. Kirt Manecke's insights offer invaluable advice on developing these vital competencies.
Guest: Kirt Manecke, Award-Winning Author of "Smile & Succeed for Teens: Must-Know People Skills for Today’s Wired World" Host: Dana Jonson Introduction:Dana Jonson introduces Kirt Manecke, an expert in teen social skills development and author of the critically acclaimed guide for improving interpersonal abilities in the digital age.
Discussion Highlights:Fundamentals of Social Skills: Kirt discusses the core social skills every teen should master, emphasizing the power of smiling, proper greetings, and the importance of face-to-face communication, even in a digital world.
Career Preparedness for Teens: The conversation turns to how teens can apply these social skills to secure and excel in their first jobs, highlighting interviewing techniques, customer service essentials, and the significance of first impressions.
Volunteering as a Skills Laboratory: Kirt advocates for volunteering as a practical way for teens to practice and enhance their social skills in a real-world setting, fostering personal growth and community contribution.
Adapting to Digital Communication: The nuances of applying traditional social skills in digital platforms and how teens can maintain genuine connections online are explored.
Memorable Quotes:"Mastering social skills is your ticket to personal and professional success." - Kirt Manecke on the importance of interpersonal skills.
"A smile is the universal language of kindness and confidence." - Kirt on the simplest yet most powerful social skill.
"Every interaction is an opportunity to practice and polish your people skills." - Kirt on the importance of everyday engagements.
Call to Action:To find Kirt Manecke, visit his website (www.SmiletheBook.com), where he has more information on his books, online courses, and free resources designed to help teens thrive in social and professional settings.
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A TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website: https://SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
Life skills are the biggest predictor of adult success for individuals with Autism. Yet, many parents and school teams misunderstand the full breadth of life skills, and they often take a back seat in special education planning. We discuss the 3 domains and 10 categories of life skills and their importance to increasing quality of life, how to incorporate life skills into the IEP early, and how to navigate transition and the IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).
My guest for this episode is Julie Swanson, a.k.a. The Life Skills Lady. She is the parent of an adult with an autism spectrum disorder and a non-attorney special education advocate. Her career as an advocate grew out of her own advocacy efforts for her son.
Julie is the founder of lifeskillslady.com, a website devoted to increasing quality of life and independence for students on the autism spectrum. You can follow her @lifeskillslady on all social media platforms. Julie is also the co-author of Your Special Education Rights: What Your School District Isn’t Telling You.
You can find the Life Skills Cheat Sheet Julie discusses here: https://lifeskillslady.com/resources/life-skills-cheat-sheet/
You can find the IEP Discussion Guide for Life Skills here: https://lifeskillslady.com/resources/iep-discussion-guide-for-life-skills/
You can reach out to Julie here: https://lifeskillslady.com/contact
If you liked this episode, share it with a friend and on social and leave a review here: https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/show/special-ed-on-special-ed/aaf5305a-7592-403f-950a-7a60dc4914be/ratings-and-reviews
FLASHBACK
Go back and listent to the episode, Should they stay or should they go?, where I discuss transition skills with transition specialist, Muncie Kardos, Ph.D., OTR/L, ATP: https://specialed.fm/?p=1187A TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website: https://SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
skills, child, parents, advocate, alex, disabilities, school district, teach, attorney, kids, autism, iep, school, functional, find, adult, academics, special ed, dana, assessmentSPEAKERS
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady), Dana JonsonDana Jonson 00:09
Hello and welcome to Special Ed on special ed. I am your host, Dana Jonson. And I have a wonderful guest for us today. Miss Julie Swanson, who is the life skills lady and she is going to talk to us about her passion project for Life Skills lady.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 00:26
The Life Skills lady is all about increasing quality of life and outcomes in autism and other developmental disabilities through life skills beautiful.
Dana Jonson 00:37
And that's what we're going to talk about today. But I can't do anything without my disclaimer. So let's hear that first. Information and this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship. Nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Thank you for being here. Julie. I'm so excited. You're here. Let me tell my audience a little bit about you. Julie Swanson is a parent of an adult with autism spectrum disorder and a non attorney special education advocate. The career as an advocate grew out of her own advocacy efforts for her son, which we're going to talk about a little bit. And she's the founder of life skills. lady.com, which is a website devoted to increasing the quality of life and independence for students on the autism spectrum. You can follow her at Life Skills lady on all social media platforms. And she's also the co author of the very popular book, your special education rights, what your school district isn't telling you, which you can find on Amazon, which is a great reference for parents. And all of this information will be in my show notes. So if you're driving and you can't write anything down, then just go back and read it a little bit later. So Julie, thank you for being here. I would love to start with how this all came to be for you. You're a mother of a child with disabilities. So what was your path that brought you from that to advocacy to the lifeskills? Lady?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 02:14
Right. Thank you for having me. You know, my son, Alex, who is an adult, was diagnosed with autism in 1997. Just almost three at that time.
Dana Jonson 02:27
That's really early for that time, isn't it? Yes. So
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 02:30
that was right when I didn't even I barely knew what the word autism was, I had to look it up in a never forget it a set of red encyclopedias down at my laptop, which were from the 1950s. And let's just say I went home and cried for four days. And I had a very dark period, because you do not want to read about autism from a set of 1950s. People don't even know what encyclopedias are if people
Dana Jonson 02:57
can't even imagine that being the primary resource anymore. But yeah, that sounds scary, right.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 03:03
And so autism was just on the rise at that point. But when he was diagnosed, I felt like I was the only person on earth who had had a child with autism. But as time went on, he went through the purpose of three system and then went into the school system. And I had developed a home program for him before going into the school system out of my basement using the principles of applied behavior analysis. And there were no board certified behavior analysts BCBAs in the state of Connecticut, where I live. So we had to get a BCBAs from Rutgers, which was a big epicenter of applied behavior analysis and such. So I had asked going into the school system, you know, he requires a program and we had evaluations and recommendations from professionals who said, Yes, he requires a program using the principles of applied behavior analysis. And of course, the answer was no school system didn't even know what ABA was or what
Dana Jonson 03:59
it be back then they were still considering it a methodology. Right. Right. It wasn't considered scientifically proven. No.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 04:05
In fairness, nobody was tooled up back then at the school systems were not tooled up. So why was the second due process case in the state of Connecticut, asking for program using the principles of ABA? Wow, it is a podcast in and of itself to go but was my hearing. But we ultimately prevailed. And the word got out that this woman named Julie Swanson was successful getting an ABA program in her school system. And by now you know, time is going on and the the the incidence of the disorder is on the rise and people started calling me and of course you go through a hearing all the way through you have gone through a boot camp and understanding the IDE a the Individuals with Disabilities Education. So I without knowing it had come to learn the skill set. I really know Ever wanted to have? Yeah,
Dana Jonson 05:01
it's true. Because it's not just about knowing the disability. I mean, you are going through, like you said, a boot camp of special education law. And let is important and what isn't important, and not everything that's unfair is illegal, right? So that's right. We're learning everything from scratch.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 05:18
I was fortunate enough at the time to be able to stay home with my two kids. But I as time went on, like, Okay, I need to go back to work now. And in my previous lifetime, I had sort of two tracks that I was on. I was intelligent production, and I was in public relations. And I was ready to go back to work. But by this time, so many people are calling me and asking for advice that I was giving out freely and taking a lot of time and energy from me, I thought, I think I have a business. I think this is a need. And you know who the players were at this that time there were only three advocates in the state.
Dana Jonson 05:58
Not Alone people. Right.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 06:00
We know who they are. Well,
Dana Jonson 06:01
and to point out your attorney for your due process hearing was your co author, correct? Absolutely.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 06:07
I met attorney Jennifer Laviano because her father represented me. Yes. So yeah. So that's that's how I met Tony Laviano. So anyway, that's how I fell into this. And I've been doing it ever since 20 plus years. Johnson.
Dana Jonson 06:25
Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. Because I think I met you about 20 years ago. I
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 06:31
Oh, probably. Yeah. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 06:35
That's insane. As Alex grew up and went through the different phases, I mean, just because you want your due process hearing and got a placement. Yeah, that wasn't the end of it. Right. It wasn't like no veiling from then on. And eventually he became an adult and no longer under the purview of a school district. Right. So and I remember that transition for you as well, it was very difficult. So yes, let's talk about life skills. Lady, when did that happen to be
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 07:04
a thank you. And you know, it's, it's an answer that I hope will help people, right. And the whole reason that I started the life skills lady, which by the way, I did over the pandemic, it had been brewing in me for years. But when do we have time doing what we do, I know, I'm not an attorney. But we essentially do a lot of the same thing, a lot of the same stuff, to secure appropriate programming for kids with disabilities in school systems. And obviously, different levels of us will ever be without a job. That's right. I, I'd love to be out of a job. But it would be wonderful, I would be wonderful. So in over the years of doing this, and I work with kids with all disabilities, but I do do a lot of autism, because that just happens to be one of the things that I'm known for, but I do all disabilities. And in working with kids who have autism and other significant developmental disabilities, I have seen this, it's more than a trend. It's a practice, I suppose, for the lack of a better word, where people start thinking about transition and adulthood in what I call the 11th hour now, and it really is too late. Strands transition to adulthood, begins when your child enters the school system. If that's a preschool, it's in preschool, I think that's in the third grade, because many people have different paths, right? So kids come from private schools or whatever, it starts immediately. Because it takes a long time to build up these 10 areas of life skills, and most people think of life skills. In my opinion, I don't think there's ever been a study, but in my own organic research that I've done, people think of life skills as skills you have in the kitchen, and skills you have taken care of yourself with hygiene and dressing and all that stuff, end of story. That is one area of the 10 areas of life skills. And so from the beginning, there's a misunderstanding of what life skills are. And so I just thought that, combined with the very poor statistical outcomes we have for our kids who have neuro diversities, and autism spectrum disorders, and by the way, they're worse than any other of the disabilities. Great. We've got to change this. And we can change it now we're, we still need so much research. Because think about it, all these kids are just becoming adults in the last five or so years, 10 or so years. And so we're in catch up mode to do the research of what it takes to improve these outcomes. But everybody can agree that By increasing life skills, you increase the likelihood of increasing outcomes and quality of life
Dana Jonson 10:10
well, and that's we want them to be as independent as adults as possible. And if we wait until they're adults to work on those skills, right, nothing's gonna happen. I heard Peter Gerhart speak once, and he's the best he is. And I and what he said, I've really changed my view. And I got it because I'd worked in a very severe escalation. And he said, When adult men go into a public bathroom, yeah, the environment there is vastly different than an adult woman going into the bathroom, right? We talk to people, we chat out of the blue, you'll comment on someone's shirt or their lipstick with no prompting, right? Because training these young boys to use a public bathroom, women, primarily the teachers are women. And I've recalled having that happen with one of my students, I had to take them to the airport, and we're at a public bathroom, and I couldn't go in. And they were in there with their communication book going up to people and pointing and talking to them. And I remember thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is not okay. Like, thank God, there were there was somebody there who was very kind, and he's like, I'll watch the door you can go in and now that sort of thing, but, but I realized, like, Oh, this isn't appropriate, this is something we have to work on. That kid was 18. So we were going to start then. And so to your point of starting very early, it's things like that, that we're not even contemplating, right, until a later age.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 11:37
And then there are barriers within the system of why parents are told that we don't have to teach life skills. I mean, there are a myriad of reasons why you may get pushback as a parent incorporating life skills into VIP early. And let's face it, look, you're in school, primarily. It shouldn't, you know, it's not just primarily, but we're there to learn the curriculum, right? Or if you're in special education, to, to be as close to that curriculum or something. Right, you know, appropriately designed in sync with it. And so there, there's just this thinking of, we're not there for life skills. Right. So I did I answer your question? Well, yes.
Dana Jonson 12:19
But I think to your point, aren't we though, because if a child wants to have disabilities, right, right, you're expecting them to learn the skills to interact with adults, you're expecting them to learn the skills to be able to handle a job interview, that's why they have a guidance counselor or their interview for college. So we are providing those life skills to children without disabilities, right. And so to say that a child with disabilities doesn't get that same kind of training, maybe they're not going to college, but they need to know how to interact in a work environment, or in a school environment or further training or whatever environment that is, and also for living purposes, the more independent a child is, the better their living situation will be post high school and post public school. Right? Yeah.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 13:10
And you know, in the IDE, A is you know, itself, it says the transition from a federal timeline is by 16, right. And in our state is 14, and every state is different, because you could move that up. But it also says if earlier earlier if the team deems that right, if necessary. And so what I like to try to do is to say to teams know, we need to start it early, earlier. There are things in the system that also probably inadvertently create barriers to parents incorporating the skills earlier.
Dana Jonson 13:46
So what are those barriers? What are you looking out for?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 13:50
Right? So one of them the law? Right, right. And right, but the obviously the law is designed to work for us and protect us. But many parents don't even know what it is. Right? So here's the scenario that typically happens. Even when I'm involved, right? You say, well, we'd like, let's, let's say it's, we'd like to teach Susie, how to cook macaroni and cheese. And what the team will say is, but she doesn't need that skill to access the general education curriculum. And why do teens say that? Because the definition of an IEP states and oh, by the way, I'm going to read it. Oh, good. For those who can't
Dana Jonson 14:33
see this. I will tell you that Julie is reading from printouts that are on the life skills lady.com So she has some wonderful printouts so go check those out.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 14:42
Right? Yes, free. Thank you, Dana. So I am I was so bothered by the answers that are given when asking do incorporate life skills into the IEP earlier. I did this print out so that parents can bring some Think to the team with them and say, Hey, I've got this, this guide here, can I go through with the team, the definition of an IEP, according to the IDA, and this is an abridged version says, is a statement of the child's present levels of academic achievement, and functional performance. There's the big one for life skills, including, and this is what everybody quotes, how the child's disability affects the child's involvement and progress in the general education curriculum. However, Dana, as you know, the statute goes on to say that it is also designed that an IEP is designed to meet each of the child's other educational needs, that result from the child's disability. And it goes on to say, to make progress, in addition to making progress in the general education curriculum, and to participate in extra curricular and non academic activities. Okay, and to be educated and participate with other children with disabilities and non disabled children in the activities. So my point there is and why I put this guide together, is it gives parents something to go in to their team with to say, This is what the actual law says, No, it doesn't have to be just that it's to make involvement and effective child's involvement in progress in the general ed curriculum. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah,
Dana Jonson 16:36
there's more to it. And I find that in many of these meetings, there's a lot of language that's left out, for example, I, you know, just popped into my head, least restrictive environment, we always forget the part that says that is appropriate. Right. It's not just automatically the least restrictive. It's the one that's appropriate. And And yes, that we are looking to involve children in the general ed curriculum. But there's more to it. That isn't the only goal of the statute.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 17:03
Right. And so the other barrier to that to finish answering your question is, in order to show that your child has deficits in their functional performance, which we will get into after this, you have to assess their functional performance. Right. So there are assessments such as the Vineland, this assesses the 10 areas of adaptive skills. There's the a bass, which is the adaptive behavior assessment scales, there's the Abels, the assessment of basic language and learning skills, the A falls, the assessment of functional living skills for some of our kids on the spectrum, there's the VB map, which the verbal behavior, milestones assessment, I know, there's other words that go with that. I always forget what the map itself stands for, but, but
Dana Jonson 17:55
it isn't gonna cut
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 17:56
it. Right. So when you have your triennial testing, with a lot of our kids with developmental disabilities, they'll miss assessing their adaptive skills. So now, if you assess the adaptive skills, which by the way, on my website, I have a whole area of listing all of the assessments, you can ask for your now once you've assessed them, now you have the data, and the list of deficits. And while it's so important to talk about what our kids can do, let's remember that we have IEP s to teach them the skills that they don't have. Right, so here are the things that my child can't do according to the assessment. And so I'm asking for their special education programming to include where their adaptive skills adversely impact their education. So there's all these different things that come together, to present to your team to say, we need to include this in my child's IEP. And
Dana Jonson 19:00
we can start early, right? That doesn't have to be right, they can reach the young child, they can say we want to start assessing the adaptive skills now. But what age Needs Assessment start?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 19:10
That's right, right away, and what people have to what parents need to remember. And of course, people who work in school districts is that an IEP is to address academic achievement, and functional skills and functional skills are generally known to be those skills, we need to meet the demands of everyday life. The IDE doesn't even define functional skills, because they can be so widely interpreted.
Dana Jonson 19:38
Well, and I always like to point out is that in the IDE, it does state education is not just academics. So when you're hearing we only how are we tying this to academics? How is this academics has nothing to do with math. Education is not just academics,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 19:56
right? You know, I remember one of the stories that I'd like to Tell because it was so mind blowing to me. And it was actually, one of the catalysts for me to want to start the life skills lady is I was working with a family whose child was higher on the spectrum had lower support needs, but was still not functioning well. So that's why I don't like to use the term high functioning autism. Because academics do not predict how well we do in adulthood.
Dana Jonson 20:24
I feel like high functioning and usually means they're not doing anything to bother me.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 20:30
It's so good. Dana, that is so good. I love that. I might have to start using that. Yeah, it's that's how i. So there was this one young man in high school. And I asked the team to assess his life skills, his adaptive skills for transition programming. And the school psychologist, and I am not exaggerating, became completely undone. And basically said to me, You are insulting this young man's intelligence, how dare you ask to have his life skills valuated. You are, this is this is below his dignity. Now meanwhile, the mother, who is my you know who I am her client, and she is my client wanted to assess the life skills, they absolutely refused. Of course, eventually, attorney, an attorney did have to get involved. The school, it's a long story, but let's just say that he never really got exactly what he needed. Yeah. And she called me after his mom. And and has said to me, he's not doing well, in adulthood. I mean, he, he's doing well. But there are so many areas that he's he just never got the instruction that he needed. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 21:57
Well, and I think that that is something that parents will hear when they don't have an advocate, or they don't have an attorney with them. And somebody who's coaching them or explaining this to them, and they hear this is that they're so smart. That's an easy thing to grasp onto. And what how do you define smart, you know, if you don't have the social skills to navigate a room, but you can do theoretical math? Where's that getting you?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 22:24
Right? And it's great to be smart. But it's not the only thing that can carry us into being as successful as you can possibly be given? Your, your set of circumstances. academic art, everything that is very correct.
Dana Jonson 22:41
Absolutely. When parents are in these situations, like you just said, a lawyer had to get involved. When, from your perspective, as a parent and an advocate, what are the red flags where parents should be saying, you know, what, maybe I need a professional like, maybe I need to go beyond my advocate. Because, you know, sometimes advocates are great, but they may not be, well,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 23:00
we can't practice law. Right? Exactly. Right. So it's when you're in a dispute with your school district that can't be resolved through the IEP process, right. And that's what I always tell parents, I, I'm, you know, I'm not a miracle worker, I'm, I'm, I will try my very best to resolve this issue. But at the end of the day, we may not resolve it. And you may be in a dispute. And you you know, so you either have the mediation process you can go through or a hearing. And I will often get involved with mediations for parents who may not be able to afford an attorney. And but of course, I can't advise them on what the agreement says. But yeah, that's when I say then then I will set you up for need, you know, the next step. Yeah. And,
Dana Jonson 23:48
I mean, that's that mean, that's totally accurate. You know, it does make me crazy, I think. And I also like to tell parents, that there's not an attorney out there worth their salt, who isn't going to speak to you, right? And tell you, you don't need me yet. Or you do need me now, I at least find in our state, you know, there aren't even enough of us to do this. So it's not a competitive issue. It's about do you need me or not? And maybe I'm not even the right attorney, maybe this person does more of that stuff. And they might be better equipped to help you with that. Do you have because people always ask this, and I actually just had someone asked me this the other day, should my child be in the public school or not? Should I be fighting for a private program? Or should I be fighting for them to be in the public school? And in this particular matter? I said, we don't know yet. We don't have an evaluation. We need more information. But I'm curious what you know, how do you answer that question? When parents come to you,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 24:45
that's a really tough one because, uh, you know, from being a parent, that I'm not going to be able to live in your home and understand your child like you do, right. And so at the end of the day for me how to answer that question is, What benefit are they getting from being with the typically developing peers? Now, trust me when I tell you my own son was not in a public school, my Alex has not only autism, but he has an intellectual disability and he's nonverbal. Okay. So for me, as my mother used to say, some decisions make themselves, it was pretty obvious that for Alex, his least restrictive environment, was a center based program, not in the public school. For many kids who are higher on the spectrum, right? They may benefit greatly from being with those typically developing peers. And when are you with the typically developing peers? And when are we pulling you out into more of a resource setting? And so that balance may be perfect for your child. But I think when the balance tips, right, and your child is perhaps so far behind, and perhaps so disconnected to the the regular education population, that maybe the benefits outweigh the risks, or the vice versa, the risks outweigh the benefits, right? Then it may be time to say, My child needs more of a senator based out of district placement. But I never liked to be the person who makes that decision for a parent, I really believe as a parent, you've got to have some sort of gut feeling about that. Do you agree, Dana,
Dana Jonson 26:33
I do. Actually, I usually say to parents, if something in your gut says something's wrong, there's probably something wrong, right? Go with your gut. And that doesn't mean you know what's wrong. Or sometimes your eye might be on the wrong ball. But if in your gut, something is wrong, something is wrong, and trust your gut. And I think that parents get from a very, very early in the process are being told not to trust their gut, they're being told to trust other people. And that can be very difficult because you know, you're not an expert, you're not an autism expert, you're not a certified teacher, you're not no tea, whatever it is, that you're feeling like, well, these are the experts. Yes, they are. But there's only one person who spends all their time with your child. Right. And that's, so something's wrong, something's wrong. And yeah, I also mean, I have five children, all the APS with drastically different needs, we've gone the whole spectrum. You know, we've been in separate Special Ed schools, and we have been in fully without, you know, barely any services in public school, so and everything in between. So there is no one size fits all. And I totally agree with that. And I think it really, as you said, I can't make that decision for a parent, I can tell them. This is what a school district can do. This is what your school district can do. This is what this program can do. But it's not up to me whether they belong in one place or the other, I can assess how easy or difficult it will be to get one program or another. Yeah,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 28:03
I do love it when you know, and obviously, that's one of the reasons to get a an independent evaluation. And I do love it when independent evaluators say, hey, school district, here are the components of programming you need to put in place for this child. If you can't do that, yes, then we need to think about the out of district, right, and give the school district the opportunity to build the program, the child requires to have an appropriate program at the school district. And if that can't happen, that's also another way to say, All right, well, now it's time. Right? So do you want to know what the 10 areas of life skills are for your listeners? I
Dana Jonson 28:47
do, but very much. Okay. I was hoping we'd get there.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 28:53
And by the way, I'm holding up my cheat sheet.
Dana Jonson 28:59
That's on your website to write Oh,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 29:00
certainly is. And so all you have to do to get these free things is give me your email because you'll get my newsletters, you know, which is very
Dana Jonson 29:09
helpful and very informative. Yeah. Without a doubt like getting spammed. No,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 29:14
no, I don't believe me, trust me when I tell you, I will not inundate you with email. I wish I had more time then. Okay, so the life skills cheat sheet for IE planning. IEP planning is what I'm reading from, okay. And I've made it visual. I've made it as a graphic because, listen for me, I want people to bring stuff down to the fifth grade level for me. Yes, I love visual, me as a user make this as simple as possible for me, please. So that's what I've tried to do. And I have three circles. And each circle has the there are three domains of life skills. One is conceptual skills, social skills, and practical skills. And then under those three domains are subcategories, which there are a total of 10. So I'm going to start with the conceptual skills. And the first conceptual skill is communication. Oh, by the way, conceptual skills are really what can be the most challenging for many of our kids with autism, developmental disabilities, and other neurodiversity is because it includes applying insights into situations, right. It's judgment, it's higher level thinking, right? This can be very difficult for many of our kids. So the first one is communication. And that's understanding, you know, using verbal and nonverbal language, then there's functional academics that's using reading, writing and math skills in everyday life. This is not calculus, functional academics are those the math we use in everyday life tipping percentages, you know, all of those things. And even just writing an email or leaving your your parents a note on the kitchen table. Yeah, functional academics, then we have self direction, this is one of my favorites, because it's one of the most difficult and we hardly hardly include these skills in IEPs. self direction is problem solving, exercising choice, initiating and planning activities, skills needed for independence, responsibility, and self control, including starting and completing tasks, keeping a schedule, following time limits, following directions and making choices. Yeah. Hello, executive functioning.
Dana Jonson 31:33
And not only that executive functioning, but I think a good basis on that is if you would not leave your child alone for the day. Right? They probably don't have the skills.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 31:43
Right. Right. That's one of my favorites, right. And it's for someone like my son, Alex, that's very difficult. And he can't do a lot of these, but we've taught him to the highest degree possible for his circumstances,
Dana Jonson 31:59
to do some of these things, right? Well, that's what I also love. And I wanted to mention that with that, a lot of times the bar is low. Well, there, this is a good example. They'll never independently shave themselves. So why bother? And I know, I've seen the video of you with Alex shaving, and he does participate in that activity. He can't shave himself independently, but you have taught him some of the steps and the ones that he can do, and he does participate. And that is huge. That is important. That is him being part of the process. And I think that you don't just stop the whole activity because the child every single step independently, right, but what they do, absolutely, and for some kids, it might even be just tolerating it. Yeah. Learning to tolerate it. Okay, so
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 32:45
now we're on to the next domain, which is social skills. And there are two subcategories, the first being social skills, and of course, maintaining interpersonal relationships, understanding emotions and social cues, fairness, honesty, using manners, and obeying rules and laws. Well, you know, so many of our kids are at risk for victimization. Do we? Do we teach that? You know, I spoke out in Utah, recently at an ABA conference. And it was all on sexuality and autism. And the very first thing that they were saying is, how do we teach to keep kids safe, from you know, people who may be nefarious, and that is to start teaching choice making at a very young age. So that when somebody for the very first time says, you know, let me do this to you, right. They've practicing know. Yeah, right. Yes. But we don't typically think of these things. Right. And obeying rules and laws. I mean, you know, you how many of our kids Dana, you know, you have them on your caseload with disabilities who have been arrested? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. So we have to teach them. This is the law, my friend, you will get arrested if you do this. Yeah. Right.
Dana Jonson 34:06
And I find a lot of that, what impairs that somewhat? Is that concrete thinking? And if something doesn't seem consistent, right, they don't understand. And it's a lot of teaching that some things you will never understand. And you have to understand. But then there's this other part where we want to teach them choice. And I had this issue with one of my own children, which was how to teach them the difference between what is mandatory and what is not. And when they do have a choice, because that was very confusing to them. They didn't have a sense. Who was the authority in the room?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 34:40
Right? Well, that requires a lot of judgment, right? A lot of higher level thinking. Yeah. Okay, so the next one, and this is also one of my favorites, leisure skills, and that's taking responsibility for one's own activities and having the ability to participate in the in the community. Now what I'm doing right now is I'm using my hands still look like I'm on the computer and on a Gameboy or whatever they call them today. It's not a Gameboy. That's how old it's the switch. Okay. But so many of our kids have a not just kids with disabilities have, I would say, an overload for technology. Yes, I would concur. I concur. Right? Right. So you know, it's really important to teach, whether it's bowling, swimming, walking, puzzles, I don't care but having a nice, as robust as possible menu of leisure activities for our kids to be able to participate in. Yeah, and last area is practical life skills. And there are five of these self care is the one that we all think about when we think of life skills, right? skills needed for personal care, including eating, dressing, bathing, toileting, grooming, etc. Now, here's another thing. How many times do many of our kids with autism or diversities, developmental disabilities have challenges as when it comes to eating and the variety of foods we eat? And oh, no, we can't teach that at the public school system. But we can, because it is a functional life skill. And you have to assess it to be able to prove to your school system, this is an area of need, you know, home or school living, these are the skills we need to take on basic care of our living space, laundry, housekeeping, food prep, you know, property, maintenance, etc.
Dana Jonson 36:33
One response I hear to that a lot is well, there are a lot of kids this age who don't do it. That isn't the point.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 36:39
Yes, you are going to hear that. And that is where you say, you know, I like to say, look, we've got the Vineland here, we've got the a bass here, we've got all of these assessments that include this. It is part of it is part of functional performance. And but my child has a disability and an IEP and God bless that other child. But we're not talking about that other child. Yeah. So then we have community use. And that's the ability to be involved in the community going shopping, using transportation, community services, health and safety. Again, one of my favorites. And this is the ability to protect oneself, medication management, responding to health problems, you know, and in today's world, keeping ourselves safe includes keeping ourselves safe on the internet. Yes, you're right. I've had situations with clients of mine, who have met up with people they've met online, and it hasn't ended well. Now, you know, these are all things that we need to explicitly teach today. And the last one is work. And that's not only the ability to get a job, but keep a job. Yes. And for many of our kids like my son, Alex, he will never be competitively employed. And he is a 24/7. Kid, he as an adult, in Connecticut, it's called the Department of Developmental Services, and he has a budget to help support him because he has a level of need that that drove that decision to be made. But even though he doesn't work, and I'm doing air quotes, right now, he goes to a farm every day, and with his support person, and changes the water for the horses. And so he gets up, and he's able to do something meaningful every day of his life. And his day is his dance card is full every day. And it's with things that we know he loves, and that are meaningful. It's not work. But it's a different kind of work. Well, I
Dana Jonson 38:45
like to think of, it's important for them to be contributing members of society. And that is not dictated by a paycheck, right? If you're capable of being competitively employed, or even with a job coach of some kind, great, but if you're not contributing to the community, or Well, I guess the community, you might be a contributing member of society, right. And to the greatest extent that we can have children be contributing members of society, it is better for them as well. Not just for us as a society, but everybody benefits from that. And
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 39:19
it's a sliding scale as based on your child's individual needs. What all of this looks like in adulthood, right? Yeah. So yeah, so I just wanted to sneak in the 10.
Dana Jonson 39:30
to No, I love that. That's very important. And I think parents need to, to understand all of those areas. And that, as we said at the beginning, a lot of those areas need to be started early on, like you said, the concept of choice making the ability to say yes and no to things. It doesn't mean that you give free range, but Right, they need to have some concept of control. Right? Absolutely. In order to understand that. And for children who have I haven't. And I've seen that happen as later teenagers for children whose lives have completely been controlled. That's where they don't have a sense of their own voice. They don't know that they can say no.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 40:12
And I think as school teams and as parents, we inadvertently, and I am guilty as well inadvertently support our kids. And we don't really know until school is over just how much support they had. Right? And you know, listen, I'm a mother, you're a mother, we all do it. But we just we don't realize that we're doing it. And I have to remind myself every day, because Alex lives at home. And you know, he does have support folks who come in, but and bring them out to the community every day. But I have to remind myself every day, you know, I'll give you an example of problem solving. Alex is not the kind of guy we're going to say, here's this math problem, or here's this problem, we'd like you to solve and tell us how you would solve it. But what we did teach him to do, right, is we realized, I realized that he had become a little prompt dependent, okay. And I wanted him to be less prompt dependent. So I worked with somebody where we taught him problem solving. So as an example, we stopped saying things like, Alex, put it over there, right? Put the fork there. And we would change that to where does that need to go? Okay, don't those are very different ways of, and then giving him the time. Now we would have to teach, right? If he didn't, he didn't know what to do, we would then give them time and say, it goes here, buddy, great job. And he's learning that and then you just keep doing that and shaping it and continuing to step back. So we taught him problem solving, by giving him enough time to figure it out on his own. And when he couldn't we help him? Yeah, but there's an example of, you know, Alex is lower on the spectrum, if you will, right. And that's his need is greater, but we still taught him how to problem solve.
Dana Jonson 42:17
But I think that teaching how to problem solve at any level on the spectrum, because, as you said, as parents, we do that a lot. And you know, as as an example, I realized that this was actually kind of funny. I thought it was funny, okay. My kids figured out that if they told if they acted like they didn't know how to load the dishwasher, they could eventually get my husband to come over and show them how to do it.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 42:42
Doing air quotes, yeah, doing aircraft.
Dana Jonson 42:46
Dishwasher, and so setting it up and putting it in properly and saying, Okay, that's how I started to realize this was happening more and more. And in his mind, he's like, but I'm showing them how to do it, and not realizing that they have become dependent on him just doing it. Yeah, I'm saying so they weren't learning. They weren't even paying attention. And this has nothing to do with neurodiversity. It's pretty, I think we as parents often do too much for our children thinking that we are teaching or helping. And the reality is, the more we back off, often, the better. Absolutely. You know, so especially when you're talking about a child like Alex, who needs to learn that that is an option, figuring it out is an option. Absolutely. And you know, that's how we all learn, right? Yeah. Hopefully,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 43:35
I literally, if you have a listener, who wants to start incorporating life skills into the IEP early, I literally did a step by step on my website. Under the tab getting started. As the first step, you can take the second step. And no, is this stuff easy? Is it a pain in the neck? Is there any luxury in it?
43:58
No.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 44:03
It's the investment you make in your child. Yeah. And the last thing I want is for people to be in the little the 11th hour in Dana, I'm sure you've gotten these calls. You know, my son is a senior, and he's about to graduate in a couple of months. I just learned that he might be able to stay on past his senior year.
Dana Jonson 44:26
Oh, my God. Yeah, that makes my head want to explode. Yeah.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 44:29
But I'm sure you've gotten those calls. Oh, not only
Dana Jonson 44:32
have I gotten those calls. And this is partially on me. I had a client who said, Well, I don't think I need you anymore. Because, you know, after the senior year, they really can't do much can they? And I'm like, where did I fail? You know, wait stops Yes, you can still fight your school district and get what you need. And you know, I put that one on me. But I got services, don't worry. I think there is trepidation to quote them. fighting your school. And I'm not asking people to fight their school, I'm asking them to advocate for their child. Right? And if unfortunately, that turns into a fight. Yeah. Not something that we can help here and try and be collaborative. Right?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 45:16
Right. And I always think of guilt, because I'm sure you have listeners who aren't parents and they work in school this Yes. Right. And we don't want to be fighting with them. They don't fighting with us. No, but we're you have to advocate for your child. And you know, like my mother used to say, there's no one waiting in line behind you to do this job. Exactly.
Dana Jonson 45:37
And I say that to parents all the time, you know, you can't wait for somebody else to step up and do this. It has to be you, you are the parent. And it is overwhelming because as a parent of children with disabilities or a child with disability, you are overwhelmed. You are overbooked overschedule, out priced everything and, and it is overwhelming to then think you have to go do this. And but there isn't anyone else who's going to do it for you. And some people are very lucky, very fortunate. And they end up in a situation and it can be the same school district, I will have one family with a situation where everything goes smoothly. And I'll have another family the exact same situation and nothing goes smoothly. And I can't tell you why yet, right? It just it does happen both on both ends of the spectrum. But as the parent, you have to know, you have to know what your child is entitled to and you have to know what your child needs. And if you don't, you have to know where to find that information. Right. And the life skills lady is a great place to start. Oh,
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 46:38
aren't you nice? Oh, no, you know, and I always say to parents to you know, if this is overwhelming for you, work with a local advocate, work with an attorney, bring somebody in to help you. You know, it doesn't mean it has to be forever. But you know, you don't know what you don't know. Right. And I know when I first started, I right off the bat, I worked with an attorney, because I knew I was in over my head. And I made that investment. Because I knew it was that important.
Dana Jonson 47:11
I as an attorney have had to hire an attorney, I can't I can't be my own attorney. I can't be my own advocate. I've had to hire advocates and hire attorneys because I couldn't do that myself. And so there's no level of you know, can I do this myself? Well, if you don't need to do anything legal, maybe. But you've got a lot going on. So sometimes, as you said, having a local advocate who's familiar. And actually there's a great question, what questions would you tell parents to ask an advocate when they are looking for an advocate? Because it's not? It's not a regulated field? Right?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 47:46
Right. I wish that it were. And we're both members of COPPA Council of parent advocates and attorneys and advocates. We wish that it were the here's what I say to parents. I have the reputation that I have. Because I hope it means I've done something right. And I think unfortunately, as advocates, we have to depend on our reputation. And get out there and talk with other parents. There are chat rooms today, there are groups that you can belong to talk to other parents. And look, we all have to start somewhere. I don't know, there's got to be hundreds of advocates in Connecticut now. I think there are now. Yeah. And great. There's plenty of work to go around. But and I had to start somewhere, right? I didn't always have 20 plus years of experience, right? But the person does need to know their stuff, right? And you need to find somebody who has a confidence level in this. And of course, you have to talk to many people. And at the end of the day, you have to rely on your gut as to what your it's like when somebody calls up the phone and talks to you, Dana, and they've probably talked to another attorney. You know, they probably took me to say they've talked to four people, but they liked you the best. Right? So they hire you. So you have to do that. You have to do your homework. Ask other parents. I think that is one of the best ways. Yeah, right. Get into these chat groups, and just say, you know, who have whose everybody had? Who's had you've had a good experience with? Is that a good sir?
Dana Jonson 49:25
No, I think it is. I think it's important. I also always say that, you know, COPPA, which is CO pa.org is a national organization. And they do have a training process for advocates. It's called their feet program. So I do always think that if someone's been through that process, it's not regulated. It doesn't mean that they're great, but that they have graduated successfully from that program, you know, that they've gotten a certain level of education on being an advocate. Right. I think most of us there. Most of us in this field. Were either former Special Ed teachers or teachers or parents and that's What got us into this field? Right? Wrong or both, and I was actually special education, teacher, attorney, then parent, started backwards. But everybody has their own path here. But it is important to understand what somebody's style is like, and you're gonna find that out from other parents, what some what is someone's nature, maybe somebody only does inclusion. Maybe somebody only does, you know, processing disorders, I don't know. But but you know, and some people do everything. Like when I did this field, my background was primarily autism and ABA. So I did a lot of that, but again, was 20 years ago, I brought it right, I do everything now. But everyone has a niche. And, you know, Are they familiar with your district? I always find the question, you know, what have you quote unquote, one to be a very difficult one to answer? Because it's, are you familiar with the players? Do you know, the district? Do? You know, are you somebody who goes in with guns blazing? Or are you very collaborative? And either is right or wrong? Right?
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 51:07
And there's really no good answer to that question. Because there's so many factors going into the personality of the director of special education, exactly the pressure that person is under from the Board of Education. How much money do they have in the budget? You know, I mean, there's, there are so many factors at
Dana Jonson 51:26
play, that are out of everyone's control. So finding an advocate that you are comfortable with, that you feel gets you gets your child, and that you have heard really good things about, right, whose style you feel comfortable with. And like you said, I think word of mouth is always better than pretty much anything else. Right? Right. Other people's experience experience. I think this has been tremendously helpful. I've learned I love it, I love the life skills, lady, website. And I also and I refer people to it all the time. And I also love your videos that you do. A lot of times, Julie will put out videos with her son, or about her son, my favorite ones are the ones who have his best friend, I absolutely love those because the two of them are so beaming just to be around each other. Like you can't not be happy in a video. But no, it's great, and showing live examples of all this stuff. You're talking about, you know, and demonstrating how it works. And I think that there is something to that, to be able to look at that and say, Oh, that makes sense. It's not theoretical, right? And, you know, give a real life application of the life skills there.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 52:38
So that's, you know, social skills, right? Alex and his friend, their best friends. But in order for that to happen, right, Alex is nonverbal. And his friend also has autism is verbal, but really doesn't speak. So, one might ask, Well, how do you know they're best friends? Well, in our situation, we as the parents have become very good friends, right? And we we as parents have to put them together because they're not going to call up each other and greet something to happen. So there's a lot of orchestration there, right. But when they're together, we know that they love being with each other. If I say, Oh, you're gonna get together, you know, with him, and she says, Oh, you're gonna get together with Alex. Or he might go to the calendar and say, Alex, you know, because she'll be on the calendar. I can see Alex's face beaming. I love being near each other with each other. So it's an orchestrated social situation. And as parents, we call them best friends. Because in our hearts, we know they are. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 53:49
Well, and that's what I love. You can see it. You know, it's not, it doesn't it doesn't feel orchestrated. I know, there's a ton of work that went behind that, right, like, when you see it, that's what I mean, by seeing that practical application, like you can see it in them. When you mentioned one name to the other, or when they show up together, you can actually see that and feel that and if and as you said, it took a lot of work on your guy's part and on their part. Right. And but this is the relationship that they have and nonverbal doesn't mean you don't have those relationships in your life and that they don't thing. And what do we do when we get together? Leisure skills, Dana. Yes. That's why they are so important. We thank you so much for joining me today. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you think we need to let parents know? Oh, Lord, what are maybe that'll be our next episode. Yeah.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 54:49
You know, you just you have to be you have to, you have to show up and do the work. And, and it's not there's no luxury in it, but no one You can love your child more than you. Right? And they're worth it. They are. They're absolutely worth it.
Dana Jonson 55:07
Thank you so much. I I so appreciate all the work you do as an advocate as a life skills lady, as a mom, as a friend, you're just I don't know when you sleep.
Julie Swanson (The Life Skills Lady) 55:19
Well, right back at you, though,
Dana Jonson 55:23
thing. Oh my God, I want to find Julie, you can go to life skills lady.com. And you will find her website and all her information. And I will also have it all in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us. And we'll see you next time on special ed on special ed. I thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to follow this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there's anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I'll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed of this episode are those of the speakers at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency organization, employer or company or even that individual today.
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Shortly after publication, a TRANSCRIPT of this episode will be added to the show notes on the podcast website https://SpecialEd.fm. Introduction:
Welcome to our enlightening episode, where we delve into the world of psychological evaluations with Dr. Diana Naddeo, a seasoned Licensed Clinical Psychologist. Known for her comprehensive approach to pediatric psychological assessments, Dr. Naddeo integrates emotions, personality, learning, and behavior to offer a holistic understanding of her patients. Her expertise spans psychiatric diagnosis, educational assessment, and a myriad of treatment approaches aimed at crafting effective plans for patients and their families.
Guest: Dr. Diana Naddeo - Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Owner of the Center for Assessment and Psychotherapy (https://newtowncap.com/contact/) Host: Dana Jonson Discussion Highlights:The Importance of Private Educational Evaluations: Dr. Naddeo explains how these evaluations offer insights beyond standard school assessments, focusing on cognitive, academic, social-emotional, and behavioral aspects.
Components of Psychological Assessments: An exploration into the various components of a thorough psychological evaluation and how they contribute to understanding a student's needs.
Collaborative Planning: Insights into how Dr. Naddeo collaborates with families and schools to create individualized educational plans that leverage each student's strengths.
Culturally Sensitive Approaches: Dr. Naddeo's commitment to understanding her patients within their cultural contexts ensures assessments are both meaningful and respectful.
Memorable Quotes:"We're not just assessing; we're understanding the whole child within their world." - Dr. Diana Naddeo
"Every child's learning journey is unique, and psychological evaluations are key to unlocking their full potential." - Dr. Diana Naddeo
"Collaboration with families and schools is not just beneficial; it's essential for creating plans that truly support the child." - Dr. Diana Naddeo
Call to Action:Listeners are encouraged to learn more about Dr. Naddeo's work and the transformative power of psychological evaluations by visiting the Center for Assessment and Psychotherapy's website at Newtown Center for Assessment and Psychotherapy. Discover resources, insights, and how to schedule a consultation to support your child's educational journey.
Note:This episode provides a deep dive into the significance of psychological evaluations, offering invaluable perspectives for parents, educators, and professionals in the field. Join us as Dr. Naddeo shares her expertise, shedding light on these evaluations' critical role in supporting students with disabilities.
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When people hear ABA, they usually think of Autism. However, social skills training is a component of applied behavior analysis (ABA) therapy that can help students with social skills deficits. ABA social skills training offers a set of techniques designed to strengthen an individual’s social skills. Neurological, emotional, and developmental disabilities are often marked by a lack of social intuition.
Most people learn social rules and conventions naturally, but they are foreign to individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and other developmental disabilities. Some students find it impossible to master even seemingly simple social interactions.
They are identifying social cues, understanding other people's intentions, and knowing when and how to respond and interact with others in social situations are not innate abilities. Individuals often referred to as 'socially blind' lack inherent skills in interacting with others in social situations.
Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT) joins me today to discuss social skills rooted in ABA. Justyna Balzar is the Co-Founder & CEO of The Hangout Spot (https://www.thehangoutspotllc.com), a center that offers specialized play and social skills instruction based on Applied Behavior Analysis. They offer thoughtfully structured, experiential small-group learning through on-site programs and remote teaching.
Justyna has over 15 years of experience working with learners of varying profiles between the ages of 3 and 18 across multiple settings. She received her Assistant Behavior Analyst (BCaBA) certification in 2014 from the Florida Institute of Technology, her Master's in Curriculum and Education in Applied Behavior Analysis from Arizona State University, and her BCBA certification in 2016. Her publications include Behavior Science of the 21st Century blog posts and articles for Autism Parenting Magazine.
Driven by a passion for educating others about the wide-reaching applications of ABA, Justyna founded @Behaviorchik, an online persona intended to disseminate behavior analytic resources. She also created the @Theabaadvocacyproject, an initiative spearheaded by The Hangout Spot founders and a fellow BCBA that unifies the advocacy practices of parents and professionals using ABA.
You can reach Justyna here: [email protected]
You can reach me here: [email protected]FLASHBACK: I’ve spoken with Justyna before! She and Hangout Spot Co-Founder, Meghan Cave, joined me previously to discuss the benefits of teaching social skills through the ABA lens. Check that episode out here! https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/wanna-hangout-i-know-just-the-spot
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This is an essential episode because Social Emotional Learning is not just for students with special education needs - everyone needs social-emotional learning skills!
Social-Emotional Learning, also called SEL, is an integral part of education and human development. It helps students and adults develop healthy identities, manage emotions, and feel empathy for others. SEL gives students the skills they need to build supportive relationships. Students learn the skills, attitudes, and knowledge surrounding social-emotional learning to make responsible decisions.
By establishing trusting and collaborative relationships, rigorous and meaningful curriculum and instruction, and ongoing evaluation, SEL helps schools, families, and communities achieve educational equity and excellence. Through SEL, we can help address various forms of inequality and empower young people and adults to create thriving schools.
It's helpful to start with a clear definition of Social-Emotional Learning (SEL). A school-wide SEL program equips students of all ages with skills to achieve their own unique goals. It includes understanding and managing their emotions, nurturing positive relationships, making informed decisions, and feeling empathy. Learning SEL is critical to students’ success, both in and out of the classroom.
Dr. Judy Grossman joins me today to discuss what social-emotional learning is, why it is important, and why it is for all students! Dr. Grossman is the Associate Director of the Center for the Developing Child and Family at the Ackerman Institute for the Family. She is also an Adjunct Professor at NYU. Previous academic appointments include Yale School of Medicine and SUNY – Downstate Medical Center. Dr. Grossman has conducted special education policy research for the NYS and NYC Departments of Education and school districts in Fairfield County. She lectures nationally and internationally on the topics of family resilience, mental health consultation, and special education family-centered services. Dr. Grossman is an occupational therapist, public health educator and consultant, and she maintains a private practice in couples and family therapy, specializing in neurodiverse children. She is also a member of the Smart Kids with LD Board of Directors.
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
child, parents, social emotional learning, children, feelings, piece, school, understand, kids, feel, terms, iep, regulate, grossman, special ed, episode, people, academic, learning, behavior
SPEAKERS
Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW, Dana JonsonDana Jonson 00:09
Okay, welcome back to Special Ed on Special Ed, thank you so much for tuning in today. I'm very excited for today's episode, because we have Dr. Judy Grossman, who is the Associate Director of the Center for the Developing Child and Family at the Ackerman interests Institute for the family. I got it all out that time. And we're gonna talk about social emotional learning. So stay tuned, I'm going to run my disclaimer before we say a word. And then we'll jump right into it. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship. Nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Great, Dr. Grossman, thank you so much for joining me today, I was able to get out your very long title. But I would love it if you would give us a little background on you and why you are the one that I need to have teach me about social emotional learning.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 01:19
Okay, first of all, thanks for having me thrilled to be talking to the parents that are listening or whomever actually started my career as an OT. And then went into academia and did some policy research in special ed and became a family therapist. I mean, like I've had many, many different experiences, my area of focus has always been family resilience, even before we we use that term. You know, years ago, we only talked about risks and deficits. But you know, there's been a change a long time coming, and looking at strengths and resilience. And I started a project for family therapists to work, specifically with families with neurodiverse children. And that's because all my experience has taught me that there are layers to the work. So you may be a very competent family therapist, or a maybe an excellent educator and special ed. But you need the whole package. So if you're doing clinical work, that's more than the area of mental health, you have to understand the IEP and the different diagnoses. And on top of interested in family resilience, very, most of my work deals with the parents, because parents are so significant. And situations can be so stressful. And they often search for skills or strategies to help them manage their child's behavior, or even keep themselves regulated when they're getting upset. So social emotional learning, and I'd say it's a term that's been around since the 90s. There's a consortium, researchers, policymakers, educators, clinicians, everybody that's interested in evidence based practice, in terms of social emotional learning. And after the pandemic, or I shouldn't say that we are still in the pandemic, actually, right. We're not sure how it's over yet. I'm actually getting up at COVID. Right now myself. So we are,Dana Jonson 03:45
I think we're over the initial shock of the pandemic, maybe that's what we're thrilled with the initial shock.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 03:51
That's the one thing we've learned a couple of things. One is children are struggling with anxiety and depression. And for some even PTSD, this has been very challenging and continues to be very challenging for students. Second thing we learn, which I know, the past 40 plus 50, long time is that parents are so important in supporting their child's total development, but particularly the social emotional development because you're the model. You're the coach. A lot of it has to do with your own development of social emotional skills. And I think that the pandemic has raised awareness that it's so important for schools to partner with parents.Dana Jonson 04:47
Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, that's how I sort of came to it was I had an older child who was neurodiverse, who was not able to identify her own emotions and feelings. And so as a family, we sort of had to learn to talk in this way of explaining ourselves and explaining our emotions and our feelings as they were happening in sort of a way to help educate her. And what I learned was I have three of my five children are have a traumatic background, and they're adopted. And and so but what I learned through this process was, it was significantly benefiting my bio, no typical child. And I mean, I don't know that anyone in my house is neuro neurotypical, but whatever you get, the idea is that these pieces, these pieces that I was putting into place for a specific reason for a specific disability for a specific need, actually applied to everybody in the house. And that's how I started to sort of identify that and now that as you say, the pandemic brought much more awareness to the forefront. And, and I agree with you, I think it's critical that we, as parents understand our role in that. Because when you tell a child you need to be doing this, but you're not doing it yourself. That's always my favorite when parents like Well, I'm definitely getting them into therapy. And I'll say, Well, do you have a therapist, and parents will say, Well, no, I don't need one.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 06:21
So you've made a couple of really good points, then that one is, this is universal. Every child and adult will have better live success, if they have good social emotional awareness. They understand can live with our own feelings, they can begin to identify feelings and others and develop empathy. They have good relationships, and most importantly, particularly with neurodiverse children that the child can regulate. So emotional regulation, meaning, you know, that don't have these uncontrollable outbursts, but they can find ways to self soothe, and cope. And another piece of that is CO regulation. So children who aren't able to do that, the parent has to sort of be their prefrontal cortex and help them regulate. So there are a lot of different dimensions to social emotional learning. But the way that the state of the art so to speak is that there are many curriculum, and many of them are endorsed by Castle, which is this consortium for collaborative social, emotional educational learning, and their school wide. So you know, a school might be interested in paying more attention to social emotional learning, and we can talk about what the research says, and more and more schools are adopting different curriculums. So it's helpful for parents to know, you know, what is your curriculum, and social emotional learning?Dana Jonson 08:05
The why would that be important for a parent to understand the specific curriculum? Is it that the language is different depending on the curriculum? Or how does that fit into what's going on at home? Okay,Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 08:17
so it actually is less about which one, but knowing that they have one. Okay. I think that what goes on at home should complement the language that they're using in school. So there's not a disconnect, in many, many ways to do this. I mean, I often do, training people to do groups with parents and their children to learn these skills. And the earlier the better. I mean, you can, you know, start social emotional learning, with infants. Yeah. In terms of how you help them. And your narrative, your storytelling always includes failing words. So in terms of the steps in social emotional learning, the the, I would say the first step is just labeling feelings, yours, their husbands or partners, the other children in the family, and, you know, take advantage of 24/7 teachable moments. Oh, wow, we see those people there. They're having an argument. They, they look like they're so angry at each other. Are you watching a movie, when he's still kind because he keeps trying to help his friends, so forth and so on. So this is something that can be done, woven into family life. If you have a child and has difficulty labeling feelings, you become curious. And let's say you're watching your child doing homework and they're having a hard time. You can say I'm wondering if you're frustrated. I mean, you're looking frustrated to me, then how are you feeling? So you don't tell the child, how he or she is feeling. But you probe who has a question. And eventually children will be able, there'll be more in touch and be able to name how they feel. And once you have a name, there's a terminal name entertainment, that helps you feel more in control. You know, if they just have this amorphous, let's say you feel anxious, but you don't really know that that's anxiety. Right? You're uncomfortable, you might have bodily signals, and you don't know what they mean. And you might say, every night, my tummy hurts, my tummy hurts. And well, that might be the signal for that child that that means that you're worried that you're justDana Jonson 10:54
yeah, there's there's that goal responses that it's not, I think that's an important piece, too, is to understand, especially for kids in school, when you see a child, when I see a child who visits the nurse a lot. My first thought is okay, that's anxiety. That's, you know, they're fearful of something, they're worried about something they're escaping from something like that, to me is the first sign right? That that they've removedJudy Grossman, PhD, MSW 11:20
themselves, actually, they, they may want to avoid something, or escape, or they may just be overstimulated. And they don't understand that. They just know they need a break. So that's really the first step. I mean, until someone has some self awareness. And when I work with parents, I always encourage a lot of self reflection, because there's a term meta emotion. how people feel about feelings. Yeah, so so people are not comfortable with angry feelings that are not express them. Some people have a lot of trouble handling when their child seems sad. Feelings are feeling,Dana Jonson 12:08
I think that's our natural response, right? Our child is that I want you to feel better. So I'm just going to immediately try to make you feel better. And Kelly, you you feel better. And that's not a big deal. It's not upsetting. Don't worry about it. But what I'm saying is your feelings don't matter. And that's where you'll have to parent right, that'sJudy Grossman, PhD, MSW 12:23
dismissive, which is unethical. Because either say, your feelings don't matter, or this feeling is like a feeling that we want to talk about or notice.Dana Jonson 12:35
And I find for parents, sometimes it's hard to see when it wasn't our intent to harm a child, it's really hard to acknowledge that what we did, because they think in the back of our mind that So the worst thing we could do is harm a child. That's that's like our natural reaction is to not do that. That concept is so overwhelming, that our first response is to be like, no, no, I didn't mean that. So it didn't happen well,Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 13:01
right? That's right. But the other piece to it is harming a child is a strong word, no parent ever gets it all right all the time. So sometimes it's about the repair. So you know, if you're learning some of these skills yourself about our how to label your carrier feeling and help your child label how he or she was feeling, it's, the parent becomes more skillful. And if you recognize that you did something that retrospectively feel you didn't handle, well, you can be transparent. And say, you know, I was just thinking about what happened this morning. And I'm really sorry, because you are looking so sad, and I didn't really give you a chance to tell me more about it. Would you like to do that? And the time, I'd say yes or no, yeah, the thing is, a very important piece of social emotional learning is this self regulation. And some parents are not well regulated. And it my work, and my work includes research and clinical, academic teaching and so forth. I always start with helping the parent regulate, because if the parent gets triggered by the child's behavior, and then they get upset, and they sort of get aroused and Rabat, that's only gonna create this child's dysregulation, essentially. So no matter what the first step is for the parent, to stay calm. And I think it's very helpful for parents to be explicit about it. Like let's say, you know, you ask your child 10 times to do something, they didn't do it and you're getting annoyed and you know, you're just sort of going up the scale. You can say, you know, yeah, I'm going up the scale or I use the monitors, killing thermometers, but whatever we want to talk about. And I don't want to start yelling, you know, that's not going to help us. So I'm gonna take a minute because I know it helps me, if I take a few deep breaths. So you are you're modeling for the child that you are working on controlling your reactions. So rather than being reactive, you want to be responsive. But you're modeling that. And, you know, you have to have a strategy. One, one part is noticing when you get aroused, or the parent, being able to monitor and knowing what's the point of no return, so to speak, and at some point, forget it. They can't really talk about it in a logical way. But then you have to know what to do. And so, you know, I usually have family activities, where everybody talks about the different ways they control themselves, or calm themselves down, or cope with stress. That's a very, very important pieceDana Jonson 16:13
is a parent understanding themselves and being able to control and regulate? Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, I find almost impossible for me to identify myself, I have to be able to rely on, we have this thing, and I'm very, like, I'm loud. My hands are always going I'm all over the place. And my husband's like, super chill. And so my yelling and his yelling are two different things. I remember he wants raised his voice once, and the kids don't yell at Mommy. And he his response was she yells at me. And they said, Yeah, but that's how she talks. And it was funny for me to be like, Oh, they so differentiate between us, like how I am compared to myself, not how I am compared to him. And I just thought that was fascinating to me that they had picked up on that little bit that they they were aware, they didn't think I was yelling all the time, you know, because there has been my personality. And I just, to me, that was showing me how in tune.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 17:19
The kids are. Exactly. Kids are incredibly attuned to the parents, emotional state. And like even toddlers, you could see a toddler, if he sees the mom looking sad, go over, and you know, sort of comfort the parent. Now, they don't even really understand what they're doing. But it's, it's in the air. It's an exquisite skill that children have. And, you know, parents might try to mask it, which is hard. I mean, I'm working with a very depressed mom right now. You know, she's doing her best to function normally. But I can't imagine her children don't pick something up.Dana Jonson 18:11
Yeah. And I hear that a lot too, with parents when they either they have something major to tell their kids, whether it's a divorce, or separation or move or what have you. And they've been waiting to tell them for some reason. And I always ask them, like, did they know? Like, did they know where they have set? And, you know, a lot of the time it's like, oh, they had a sentence, or they were relieved that whatever was was said, because they knew something was coming. You know, like, they're just, I think we as adults like to pretend that we're tricking them, but we're really not. You know, we've we've trained them to tell us what we want to hear.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 18:46
Yeah. And, you know, we we want to protect them. Yes. That's just an instinct. Can always, you know, that doesn't mean that you can help them deal with, I often say anxiety is catching. You know, it might be situation where were you just a word about it? And say, you know, yeah, you know, you recognize that, you know, this is normal behavior for mommy, which is different than normal behavior for daddy. And that's fine. People are different. You know, the thing about social emotional, oh, join us. Good question. I'm sorry, IDana Jonson 19:36
was I was muted. I was just saying I think it's important for them to be able to distinguish between personality and emotion and feeling and my oldest is neurodiverse as nonverbal learning disabilities so so it's very difficult for her to identify any of those social cues that we take for granted. You know, but so to be able to distinguish between them That's your personality, you're fiery, and you're loud versus someone who's fiery and loud as me, or mad or angry or right. however you define it, it's much more complicated than we think. And we still take it for granted. I'm curious, how do you approach families, because sometimes I run into this where families say, they just need to suck it up. They just need to get through, they need to get a tougher skin. And I've been that parent, where I said, Oh, my God, my kids are snowflakes, what is happening, but at the same time, I think about the pain that I experienced, not being able to share my emotions with somebody or not being able to identify them myself. So I'm coming from that perspective. But how do you reach a parent who maybe doesn't see that the benefit necessarily they know their kid needs it, but they're not internalizing it?Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 20:58
Well, that goes back to the research of what we're learning. So social emotional learning, which is the title that have sole users this consortium, it could be called Emotional intelligence, or emotional literacy. It's also referred to as non cognitive skills, and in our schools are all about academics, and cognitive development, language development, and achievement, which all plays into it, right. But if a child is not regulated, the child is distracted. If a child is in a stress response, if a child is feeling anxious, they're not taking in the information. They're not absorbing, and integrating what the teacher is saying. So there have been over 20 years of research, I mean, way more short term and long term studies, showing that there is a relationship between better social emotional skills and academic performance. There is relationship between social emotional skills, and relationships, and self awareness, and behavior, in school and at home. So I consider it What should I say, I never said this before the word just came into my mind, like a nest, ah, this is social emotional learning. And then you build all the academic cognitive skills. But if you're not pressing, right now, you're not really learning optimally.Dana Jonson 22:51
Yes. And I, we actually experienced that as well, one of one of my children, who, between evaluations, their IQ went up, and I'm using air quotes that you can't see right now went up 16 points. And at her age, that's not your IQ doesn't make that kind of lead BNL in that short period of time, and she had gone from an environment that was not safe to her in her mind, and had to spend not just to enter into a safer environment, she had to spend a great deal of time in that safer environment, before she became available for learning. And that's how we looked at it because I was like, there's not suddenly this, what was I, what I was thrilled about her educational environment at the time is that it was meeting those safety needs. And that was my only priority for her at the time. And the academics came, you know, like, everything went up when we only focused on making sure she felt safe. And that was our only priority. That's when she did well academically.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 24:03
Well, you're you're exactly right. And, you know, safety is. What could I say? Without that? Yeah, any of this is not going to develop. So you know, children that experience a lot of trauma. Number one need safety and trust in relationships. Another thing about you know, trauma and how it relates to this. I think we underestimate the amount of trauma people have in life. I mean, there's a lot of studies about this now from trauma informed cares, like the name of the game. It's a cat two days, it's the buzz phrase, right? But let's just say your child has ADHD, there's a separate from trauma, the extra energy that they need to pay attention to stay seated to, especially if they're have the hyperactive pace to modulate their body It is exhausting. And so even that takes away fromDana Jonson 25:05
learning. Right. And I think people forget that when kids are exhausted, they don't roll over and go to sleep, they tend to have a fit, you know, they tend to keep going in their exhausted state. They're not aware enough to rest. And I think we forgetJudy Grossman, PhD, MSW 25:23
that. Yeah. And also, we see it in the transition from school to home. Because, you know, the teacher will say, here's a behavior problem, and we've been doing fine, and he has some friends, you know, and then the child comes home and opens the door, and he has a temper tantrum and totally escalates. And the parents thing that's going on? I mean, is this different kids? In my family child that's in school, very common number that I hear that all the time?Dana Jonson 25:56
How do you help schools bridge that gap? How do your parents and schools how do you, you know, I have that happen a lot. Obviously, with my clients, I have my clients or children with disabilities, and a lot of the time they are holding it together to the best of their ability from morning to dismissal, and then they get home. And there's nothing left. There's, you know, emotional control, there's no making the child happy. There's no nothing like they've just been pushed over the edge. But the school is seeing a great kid that's being social and talking to friends and doing their work. And I'm in the parents are seeing a kid that's about to blow, how do we help bridge that gap?Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 26:41
Well, a couple of ideas. One is, because this is so common. One knows what you can do at home. So to be articular Babbitt and then have maybe a transition ritual with the child, because you're anticipating, and you make that obvious and you know, the ritual might be what's the most common thing you can do with the child at that moment? Is it to give them something to eat? Or is it to have them do some kind of physical, aerobic kind of activity, whatever it is, but make it over and think about, this is just what the parent can do think about creating a coming home ritual. As a therapist, when I work with families, everything is a suggestion, because we never really know what's going to work. A lot of it's trial and error. But for some families that works in terms of the school. And I've been doing this work a long time, I mean, training related service providers, because I'm also rotate training related service providers and training, special educators and changing psychologist and you know, people from different domains in this area with different perspectives. Yeah. And the, there are so many more opportunities for parents to get information that could help them. I always say, don't pass the OT what she's doing to help the child regulate in the classroom, because maybe she has some ideas for you. I mean, there's not enough transparency and communication between well, some parents and some schools do this very well. I mean, you know, I did some studies in Fairfield County, and there are some school districts, some districts, but there's some communities that do it very well. I was still my work was in New York City, andDana Jonson 28:53
different animal in New York City.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 28:56
And so, sometimes there's absolutely no communication and cancer or our have a right to information. And they would benefit a great deal because they want other ideas. Are there strategies? Is there something that's working in school because there's a behavior plan seemed to work in schools, that's something we should try it at home?Dana Jonson 29:23
Right. And from a, you know, from a specialist attorney perspective, I would also look at that as you know, parent training from a school perspective. Another thing that I often recommend for parents is evaluations. And if they think that they are seeing a completely different child than their school district, and they're not able to bridge that gap, that either bringing in the private therapists that they're working with to give their input or collaborating with the school to get an outside evaluation, maybe somebody who isn't in school because of people in school aren't seeing But the parents are staying and the parents aren't seeing what school is seeing the maybe we need somebody completely separate, to come in and tell us where all these pieces connect. And I find that to sometimes be the hardest thing. And once we can make that connection, and everyone can see how all those pieces work together and how home is impacting school and vice versa, then we can start putting pieces into place. How would you advise parents or teachers who think you know, we have a gap, we need to bridge bridge this gap? Where can we get the information we need? Who should they be going to for that assessment orJudy Grossman, PhD, MSW 30:40
instruction? Well, you're talking about quite a few different things. So that's probably, so let's see if I can answer it in a way that's helpful. Schools are mandated to every child has an IEP to decide on placement and services to enhance their academic performance. That's as a threatened. I'm suggesting academic performances is not as narrow a lane, as they say, I did special ed policy research for a decade. And, you know, there's such variability in terms of a school district partnering and believing in strength base, partnering with parents in understanding what the parents concerns are, what their priorities are, as opposed to, you know, let's look at the IEP and look at the various specifics skill. Now, sorry, think about all the trial, right. So parents have a right to request a meeting, if a child has an IEP, parents have a right to have the child evaluated, if they feel there's a problem. Usually it comes from the school, suggesting to the parent, however, I know, parents instinct, lets them know something's not quite right. And so they need the validation. They may feel for years. I just think there's something that he he's not getting. And then grade three, you still can't read. He's very frustrated. And he has a lot outburst in the parent knew, right and we are diagnosing earlier and earlier or diagnosing. I mean now, where it is approved to diagnose children as young as four with ADHD, which was not the case before, but I know into a preschool and look in the classroom and identify two to three children that are neuro diverse. And yeah, I'm a preventionist. I mean, my doctorates and a couple of Cal, but I'm all about prevention. And if a child has a neurobiological disability, you really can do prevention work in terms of his emotional life, and not feeling I'm not good enough. I'm a bad boy. You know, I hear those things from children all the time, and they're devastating for parents.Dana Jonson 33:30
Yeah. But I think we don't realize too, that by calling a child a good boy, indicates to the other children, then they are bad. Like, I think they're little pieces of language that we we've become very careless with our language, I think. And I think that is part of our social emotional problem. Because when you're careless with your language, you're sending messages that maybe you didn't intend to send. And, and I think it's in my lifetime, that we've actually as a society started to acknowledge that kids have feelings. You know, I know, when I was little that was at the forefront of the conversation, you know, and even my mom talks about when she was pregnant, there was only one patient. Yeah, it was the mom. Right. So it started right from there. So, you know, I think that we are definitely coming into a new understanding even though these ideas and concepts and knowledge have been around forever. I think as a society, we have not been taking it seriously.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 34:31
Well, I think you're absolutely right. The power of language. Good, bad, you know, really, you want to describe behavior, you know, Oh, you did you finish that assignment very well. And you know, that was great because you're being a good student or whatever. You you talk about the behavior. I had an experience in 1971, which gives A little bit of indication of how long I've been in the parenting field. And we were doing a prevention program in Spanish Harlem with little kids. And everything was about the children know that colors, they know, shapes, and it was all conquer cognitive and language. And I have worked in mental health. And so this was a research project that really funded until I started saying to the parents, what do you like about your child? I'm telling you, they struggled with answers. So this piece of recognizing someone's emotional life and how much that impacts performance and relationships. I mean, even I do a lot of work and Headstart programs, and 1965, the purpose of Headstart was to help children develop social competence. It was an academic readiness. Because if you think about right, you know, what do you need to be a successful adult? Well, you may not need algebra, as much as getting along with your co workers are having a decent round.Dana Jonson 36:18
Yes. And I had that conversation, an IEP meeting the other day for a kid who's super smart. And I thought, yeah, he is. But he also can't make eye contact. If he doesn't like how you look, he will tell you like, there are things that are not acceptable in society that this child does. And regardless of the cognitive abilities, they won't be successful. And that is what we're looking at when you talk about education being much more global than academics. And it is, and that's something that I remind IP teams of all the time, you know, for a middle school, we're talking about a middle schooler, and this kid does not have any friends, that is not typical. And that is going to be more important to that student than anything else. So if we're not taking seriously what kids take seriously, then we're not acknowledging their feelings, their thoughts, what's going on in their lives. And I mean, they're human too, right? They this is their brains are developing to what they're going to be as adults, now's the best time for them to learn how to do all that stuff. I just don't believe that kids have to be in pain to learn what makes it hard to learn. Yes, I think we have that, right. Like if somebody if a kid is enjoying their class, there's this question like, are they actually learning anything? They seem like they're having too much fun? You know, we have to think that's sort of a weird thing. Well, thank you, I so appreciate all of this information. I think it's so important for families and schools to understand that this this social emotional learning piece, and you did touch on it, but it's also a little different than emotional IQ, or those pieces like how will you know yourself. It's more about social emotional learning, it builds, these things can be learned skill develop, toJudy Grossman, PhD, MSW 38:11
be modeled back to be practiced. I think the good takeaway for whoever's listening to this is becoming more comfortable with emotional coaching. And that's a term comes from John Gottman, which really means no matter what's going on, you connect emotionally with the child first. So you say, you know, I say you're really angry because you're raising your voice, and I get it, because your sister keeps taking your toys. So you're validating how the child feels, no matter how they feel a feeling is the feeling needs to be respected. So before you say, but don't hit your sister. First, say, you know, label of feeling validated. If you don't really understand if you can't make the connection say, but what what's going on? Tell me what I don't understand why you're so frustrated. And then you can give the couldn't give guidance, you can make a demand, you can make a request. It just means that the child feels understood, and they will listen to you. And this goes for all relationships.Dana Jonson 39:36
It takes them off the defensive. Yeah,Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 39:39
I mean, everybody wants to feel understood. And Oh, Mommy gets it. Yes. And, you know, mommy's that. I should. I can't hit her. Okay. That doesn't mean it's not going to hit her. It means that he has to substitute right a different action for demonstrating has Question for just sister.Dana Jonson 40:02
I love that the way you phrase that it's it's about finding a different way to express it. Right? You're identifying. I see you feel that way I get it. That's valid. But doing that when you feel that way is not how we do it. When you feel that way, you've got to do something different. Let's figure out what that something different is. And yeah, so it's looking at what's, what's the outcome? I've said that to you before I do want the child to feel bad about themselves? Or do you want to change the behavior, which is the goal? And thinking of it that way? Because I think sometimes we feel like that's character building as an adult, right. Going through those tough things and toughing it out. But, you know, wouldn't it be better to have the tools to get through it rather than have it out? I'm not too proud to use, though.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 41:01
It's complex, but it isDana Jonson 41:03
it is. So So Dr. Grossman, tell me if somebody is listening to this, and they're saying, Oh, my gosh, you speak my truth. You're the only person who gets me and I need to talk to Dr. Grossman, how are they going to find you, and reach out to you and find your world,Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 41:18
I am only practicing on Zoom. Now. Since the pandemic, I gave up my office in the city and I had to have an office here. I'm taking select cases, because I also teach and so forth and so on. But I can be reached at [email protected]Dana Jonson 41:43
Great. And I will have that information in the show notes along with the other other links to some things that we've discussed during this episode. And I can't thank you enough it really this is such an important a hot topic. And I came across it because I was I attended a presentation that you gave and and I think that was well attended as well. I really think that social emotional learning is on the swing. Thank God in our community in our on our society. So thank you so much for all the work you do, and for sharing this information with parents.Judy Grossman, PhD, MSW 42:16
Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. I'm happy to do it.Dana Jonson 42:20
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to follow this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there's anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I'll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speaker's at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company or even that individual today. -
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A Due Process Hearing is just one of the dispute resolution options available to parents of children with special education needs. But what is a Due Process Hearing? In special education, Due Process Hearings are not often fully adjudicated, because the issues are resolved through some form of settlement. In fact, I'm pretty sure special education is the only civil right we negotiate away. For those fully adjudicated, parents rarely win. The school has significantly more resources (from their administrative staff to their on call attorney). Parents simply don't have the same legal, financial, and emotional ability to pursue and complete a full due process hearing. And that is why it is so exciting when a parent wins!!
Today, we look at due process hearings through the lens of one specific case in Connecticut in which the Parents prevailed. Meredith Braxton is a special education attorney in private practice in Greenwich, CT (bio below), who recently prevailed in an interesting due process hearing right here in Connecticut. We discuss the process, the facts, and the final decision as we break down this special education due process hearing.
Meredith C. Braxton, Esq., has been practicing law for 32 years, with a primary focus on special education for 20 years. After spending time in general and business litigation in "big law" in New York City and two smaller Connecticut firms, Meredith started a solo practice and began representing students and parents in their efforts to enforce their civil rights by having their children identified, securing appropriate services, and enforcing their rights to appropriate placements, whether via PPT, negotiation, an administrative due process hearing, or appeal to the federal courts. Her office is in Greenwich. Meredith is also a partner in a companion practice with her colleague Liz Hook (Braxton Hook) to represent families in New York in special education matters and individuals in both Connecticut and New York in education-related civil rights and tort cases as well as employment matters.
The full decision can be found here.
You can find Meredith's contact info here.
FLASHBACK: If you are curious about other dispute resolution options, you can check out the episodes What's the Deal with Mediation, State Complaints, and Special Ed 101!
Check out this episode!
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
witnesses, hearing, decision, officer, felt, parents, child, school district, case, board, argument, student, attorney, people, meredith, thought, footnotes, understand, works, remedySPEAKERS
Meredith Braxton, Esq., Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:08
All right. Welcome back to Special Ed on special ed. Thank you for coming back and joining me today. Today I am meeting with Meredith Braxton one of my favorite Special Ed attorneys from Connecticut. Hello, Meredith. Thank you for joining me.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 00:21
Good morning.
Dana Jonson 00:22
Good morning, we're going to discuss a case in which Meredith prevailed and discuss the components of a due process hearing, or decision, or pleading or all of that, through this one case, in which Meredith prevailed. But before we say one word, I'm gonna play my disclaimer for you all. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. All right, Meredith. First of all, congratulations. This is awesome. You're welcome. This is a 54 page decision. There are four issues at the beginning that you raised 176 findings of fact, about 36 conclusions of law. And at the very end, there are nine orders. So that's a little overwhelming. And this is a final decision and order. And I'm a lawyer, and I was so excited when I got this when we all heard that you had prevailed, and we got to read it. And even I'm overwhelmed with 54 pages. So I want to start by, I want to read the actual issues that are listed in the decision. And then I want you to sort of tell us how we got here, if that works. Okay, so the first of the four issues in the final decision in order are, has the board denied the student a free appropriate education or a faith for the previous two years by habitually failing to record the PPT decision in prior written notice? We're going to come back to that one, too. Does the current IEP and placement deny the student faith? Three, should the hearing officer place the student in a residential therapeutic school for students with CP or cerebral palsy? And if necessary, order the board to hire an educational consultant to identify a placement for the student? And for is the student entitled to compensatory education, which would be education to make up for education missed? So those are some pretty loaded issues. Why don't you take us back to the beginning and tell us what happened.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 02:54
First of all, this client is an amazing kid. And I actually spoke to her recently, she's really happy at man's two right now. So great, really thrilled. So I'm really glad we got there, I was actually brought in after the kiss was pretty well set up. There was a lay advocate involved who did a really good job, got some amazing ies, you know, independent educational evaluations from I mean, some of the most qualified people I have ever run across, they were really, super, she also has a super medical team, you know, all of whom, even though some of them were out of state, they weren't totally willing to testify, you know, and give me not very much time, but some time to educate the hearing officer about the student's conditions.
Dana Jonson 03:46
And that's an important component is that there's a difference between what is a medical responsibility and an educational responsibility. And as you and I know, a lot of times those responsibilities overlap, correct, making it incredibly difficult to get anyone to provide.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 04:03
Yes, yes, but these medical providers were very well able to connect what was going on with her medically to what was going on with her educationally. So that's amazing. They were really, really helpful. But when this case first came to me, I wanted to file for due process, but I was always until the very end, I was always really concerned about the remedy, right? Because you don't know which hearing officer you're going to get. And if you're not able to put specific remedy out there you just don't know where that hearing officer is going to go with it. So we have not found a placement for this student yet. She's very difficult to place because she has you know, high cognition, but her physical disabilities are profound and urgent Communication Difficulties are profound. So there's just not a lot of places, you know, for that profile.
Dana Jonson 05:06
And that's an important piece to understanding what you want. Because we run into that problem a lot with families where they know something's wrong, they know it's not working, but they don't know what will work or what they do want. And that makes it really, really hard for us. Because and I explained this to clients a lot. You could go through a due process, hearing, and win on every single issue, and not get the remedy you wanted, right. And I think the example I use is, you could go into a hearing, asking for an out of district placement, go through the entire hearing, and have the hearing officer say, you are right, the school didn't do anything they should have done. But I think that school can create a program. So I'm going to order them to do that instead of residential, and now you've gone through the entire expense of winning a hearing. Right, and you're not getting any remedy. So that is a very concerning component that I don't think people
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 06:05
realize, and I really wasn't willing, you know, I advised my client that I just didn't feel comfortable filing until we had better direction there. So but as time went on, first of all, she was able to eke out a little money to find an ad consultant. And this ad consultant was really great. He was wonderful to work with. And I couldn't stand it anymore. I felt like Greenwich was torturing this, like literally torturing this kid, because, you know, I was on the back end of every email, and phone call, and what they were doing to I couldn't take it anymore. I really just I couldn't take it anymore. So I was like, Okay, we just have to file we have to get this hearing going. And hopefully, by the time we get to the end of the hearing, we will have a remedy in mind and we won't have a placement. We almost got there. Not quite but you know, it turned out okay. But that was a little bit of a, you know, risk that we took, but what was going on was so unacceptable, that that you know, as a moral proposition.
Dana Jonson 07:17
Right. Right. And I think that's where school districts don't realize they really messed up is when they one of us off? Yeah, is you know, when one of us is even in the grand scheme of everything we've seen and experienced if we get off, we're like a dog with a bone. Yeah.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 07:34
Yeah.
Dana Jonson 07:36
Don't do this. Don't get out of my way.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 07:37
Yeah, yeah. That's how we sort of got to filing the various issues that wound up being presented. Actually, we didn't even really address the faith based on not recording PVT decisions appropriately, even though they did not I was gonna ask
Dana Jonson 07:55
you about that. Because now in the in the new IEP, which I've yet to see, in case you're wondering, every school district I'm dealing with is like, yeah, we'll deal with that later. I gotta get back to school right now. So talk to me after Christmas.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 08:11
What I'm what I'm hearing from them is it's taking them six hours to fill out the new form exactly this new
Dana Jonson 08:17
convenient form that was going to take less time. But there's no prior written notice in it now.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 08:23
But I thought the prior written notice was supposed to be a separate document, but I have a separate one here.
Dana Jonson 08:27
But we haven't seen any documents yet. So I think that this is a really interesting point about the prior written notice. Because what that means in that issue, for those who don't understand is that decisions were made in the IEP meeting that need to be documented in the IEP, because they were either accepted or refused. And when a school does,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 08:51
the more the even more important piece of that is they're supposed to record why they did right. Or important part and the data they relied on to get there, right, which is usually how you can point out how freakin absurd their decision was. Right? Exactly. Because
Dana Jonson 09:09
this is my favorite is on I had one where they made the decision based on grades and performance. And the child had modified work and modified grades. So it was like, Well, wait a second. understand all of this.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 09:26
My favorite is where they deny, like a residential placement. And they say it's based on the independent evaluation, you gave them that recommended residential place.
Dana Jonson 09:36
Fabulous. Yeah. So it's based on that because we read it. And that's how we read it. And we rejected all of it. Yeah. So actually, that leads me to my next question, which is, you know, after you read the issues, and the piece on why the hearing officer has jurisdiction, we get to your 176 findings of fact. And so the findings of fact, are sort of the meat and potatoes, is that right of the
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 10:03
of the you don't you don't get to conclusions of law without those findings of fact, they're the
Dana Jonson 10:08
evaluation of your due process demand, right? findings of fact are what you base everything else on. So how does the hearing officer determine what the findings of fact, are? Like? Do you provide those in your brief or your due process demand? Or how does the hearing officer come to determine which facts are actual facts?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 10:29
So the post hearing brief is, is always proposed findings and facts and conclusions of law. And, you know, I can track through this decision the places where he definitely adopted, you know, what I wrote in my brief, but there's a lot of it where he had his own thing going and this particular hearing officer, who unfortunately has been picked off by virtue Moses, since then, he listened so carefully works for birch and Moses now, yeah, they hired him right after his case.
Dana Jonson 11:00
Sorry, I can't help but laugh.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 11:01
I know. It's so upsetting. Speaking of absurd, yeah. Anyway, so he listened really carefully to all the witnesses and clearly was focusing on their credibility. And I could tell I was landing the punches, you know, as I was going on, and he was getting them. And the one that was really telling was, you know, there's a principle in examining witnesses for trial lawyers where, you know, if you've got a hospital, first of all, he did go with the school district employees who I called, on my case, were hostile witnesses who I was allowed to ask leading questions. Great. So a lot of our hearing officers won't go there. And it makes it harder, because you have to do direct examination with non leading questions, right, anyway.
Dana Jonson 11:52
Right, I mean, that's getting a little in the weeds. But for parents who don't understand that, as attorneys, when we examine a witness, we are bound by certain restrictions, we can't just ask them anything, we can't just suddenly blurt out stuff, right. Like, we have to have a foundation, we have to lead them to a certain place, we have to have demonstrated certain things and have specific items and evidence. And there's a process and if you don't go through the process, you don't get your information across. So one of the ways in which we ask questions is, we ask leading questions all the time in our day, across the day, and you're not allowed to do that, unless they're, especially with your children, especially with your children, right, we're trained to write to ask leading witness. And that's why children shouldn't be witnesses, because you can lead them. So we really have to be cautious about that. And so then it depends on the hearing officer as to what they will allow, and they have a significant amount of leeway in what they will allow or not allow. So it sounds like this hearing officer was really focused on understanding the issues
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 12:58
he really was. So one of the principles for examining witnesses from the other side, is, if you land your point, you don't go on to ask like the ultimate question, because then that clues them in that they just messed up, and they will go back and they'll fix it. You instead use that nugget in your argument later on. So that's how we roll I got one of the school district witnesses to say that she made all the decisions in the PPTs. And so I'm sliding away from that, because I'm like, hopefully, like guaranteed, and, of course, returning picked up on
Dana Jonson 13:35
that. But whatever. That's kind of a mess.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 13:38
I'm going on, going on to the next thing. And the hearing officer goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then he starts questioning her and she doesn't fix it. She doubles down on it. And then I'm cross her attorney tried to save her and she didn't go for it. So she basically got predetermination. That's amazing lack of parental participation. So the hearing officer in this case, he really listened. And he was sort of going through issues in his own head clearly the whole thing about you know, in his findings of fact, in his conclusions of law, he talked a lot about how the school district had the wrong primary disability for this child and that how it drove an inappropriate IEP. Now you and I know that's actually true. Most of the time, if you have the wrong primary disability, it does, to some extent derive. You know, services. Absolutely. Schools always say is no, we give whatever services are needed, no matter what the primary handicap is, blah, blah, blah. I felt like that was just a loser of an argument for me like when I didn't want to spend a lot of time on. I had so many other issues that I thought were really compelling and really important, and that would win the case. It was funny because he kept bringing it up. During the hearing, and I was like, Yeah, you know, and I didn't really press it with witnesses, but he did. You know, he would ask witnesses his own questions,
Dana Jonson 15:09
and I find that fascinating about hearings is that the hearing officer can and will just stop everything and be like, I have some follow ups. I need you to clarify that. Yeah. I love it when we hear a hearing officer ask questions, because all that says is, oh, they're listening. Yeah, do get it because not all hearing officers really do get it. Not all of them have been doing what we do our whole lives. And we have to not only explain to them the process, the law but the disability.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 15:35
Right, right. And this one is very low incidence. So it's particularly difficult to convey what it's like, like I said, we had a, especially her physiatrist was really great at describing what it was like to be, I'm allowed to use her name, she doesn't care. Okay. So you know what it was like to be Sydney. And that really got to the hearing officer. So did the videotapes of what was going on on the bus ride. Wow, I thought, did you get those? Well, they're an educational record. They're a four year record. And I was like a dog with a bone. And I did when I filed, I also served an Administrative Code document request. And so at the very beginning of the hearing, when you're sort of like, what housekeeping items do you have, I'm like, I'm asking for these documents. And these videos, they haven't given them to me, I can't do this hearing without it, and I got him to order them to be given to me. So I find
Dana Jonson 16:36
that I don't always get everything in a FERPA request. There's never I get everything. Shocking, really. It's shocking, really, but and in my FERPA request, I have a laundry list of things I would like included, and then I just hope I get most of it. You know, videos, and particularly bus videos, I think have to be the hardest things to obtain. That's just my experience. It's just a lot of red tape to get your hands on those videos. So that is huge. Yeah. So you provide your findings of fact, the board attorney is going to provide there's right. So what the hearing officer chooses is going to be based on the testimony. Right. Right. And so that's your point in your testimony is to demonstrate what actually happened, right, I presume you had good witnesses and parents for this? Because I know for me, anytime I contemplate whether this is something that would go to due process or not. The first thing I think of is Who are my witnesses? Yeah. And my first thought is can either parent be witness, and that sometimes makes the decision?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 17:49
You know? Yes, I had one due process where, I mean, the hearing officer literally hated my client. And he was difficult. He was a difficult person. He was a difficult person, like, I liked him. But you know, I'm weird. But she ruled for us anyway. And I was a little I mean, she even dropped a footnote about how she didn't believe that I love that. Yeah, yeah. So it's very important. The parent is very important. Sometimes, like, in this case, I had the parent, but as a backup, I also had her sister who had quit her job to help Sydney, you know, during COVID, and was, I mean, had basically been in her life the whole time. So it was very, sort of a corroborating witnesses if I needed it. Or it could be the primary witness about what was happening during remote instruction, and stuff like that. So yeah,
Dana Jonson 18:45
and I see you guys had 11 witnesses, and the board only called to it looks like,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 18:50
Yeah, cuz I called all her witnesses on my case.
Dana Jonson 18:54
You called them all first, so that you could get that done with
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 18:56
in this, you know, in this particular school district, I find that the attorney, if you do this, if you if you call her witnesses on your case, and she often hasn't glommed on to what your their themes are, and doesn't really prepare her witnesses. Well got it. Well, I can tell my stories through them. And they're the people I had first, and the hearing officer had a little issue with it. He was like, aren't you gonna call them? And I'm like, Oh, get there?
Dana Jonson 19:27
Yeah, well, because mom's usually number one, right? Yeah, I don't like doing like that. Well, good. That's, that's great. You should talk to my lawyer about that, because she was working really, really hard to figure out how to not put me because for all of those parents out there who've heard you wouldn't be a good witness and make and took it personally and felt bad. I was informed I would be a horrible witness. So I'm an attorney who does this every day. So you know, don't feel bad about it. So you called everyone that you needed for your case and the hearing officer allowed you to treat the school personnel as if they were hostile. So that is huge. You know, it sounds like we got a really great hearing officer and then a board firm just snatched them up immediately.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 20:12
It did save money, how that works about that
Dana Jonson 20:16
money how that works. I wanted to touch on the timeframe to because you filed on October 12, in 2021. And your briefs were due in March 28 2022. And that is actually only five months, I was actually thinking for a hearing that went through so many witnesses that you would conclude this and only five months, I was kind of impressed. And to tell
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 20:43
you the truth, this included a month or two of me foot drag. Oh, wow. Because I was I was foot dragging. Because we didn't have that placement. Right. I was like, you know, Brenton, come on. So I delayed things a little bit. And then I decided I gotta go, Yeah, this has got to get going. Right, the hearing officer made it really clear that he was feeling pressure from the State Bureau of Special Education, to move these hearings along faster. You know, they're getting very concerned about their timeline issues as they should, as they can. Absolutely. He assured me and I felt with, you know, after we'd been going at this a little bit, I felt like I could believe him about this, that I could always just refer to an exhibit, and he would read it. And I felt like he would read. Okay, so some hearing officers, you really have to have every single bit like presented orally to them, or they focus on it. But in this case, I felt like I could rely on him to read the exhibits that were admitted. I sped through some of this stuff. Yeah, I mean, the medical people, I probably had a an average 30 to 45 minutes with them, half of which I seated to the other side. Right, wow. Yeah. And so I was like, bang, bang, but I had one day when I had like six witnesses, I blew through six witnesses, that's insane. I then laid down on the floor of my office and made it like an IV of vodka, but it was intense. But it made the hearing officer very happy, they do appreciate it. And I kind of liked it, because I was able to get all the really important stuff in and then the other side was kind of limited and what they could do with it. You know, they were also limited. The you know, in the end, I kind of liked it, even though I ordinarily would,
Dana Jonson 22:43
yes. Where are you for this matter? It worked for this matter for this hearing
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 22:47
officer, you know, so much depends on the hearing officer get and what their style
Dana Jonson 22:53
is. Yeah. And I hear that a lot from parents, do you have experience with this district? Do you have experience with this lawyer? And all of those things do matter. But I feel like the experience matters more in knowing how to shift because all those players change all the time. And I've had evaluators where I felt like I could just leave the room and they'd be fine. And then the next tvip meeting, I go to them, I'm like, Who is this pot person? Like what did they do to my evaluators? So you just never know, there's a lot up in the air,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 23:26
you don't know. And that's what I try to convey to my clients about due process. It's a high risk situation, because you don't know which hearing officer you're gonna get. You don't know what pressures they have on them, because they are getting pressure from above, you don't really know how the evidence is going to come in. You don't know whether some of the board people who you think are charlatans are going to come across as believable. You don't know if you're going to be able to get in every document that you think you need to get in. I got a lot out of those board witnesses that have they been better prepared and probably would not have. Yeah, and that
Dana Jonson 24:03
preparation is big. I mean, the prep is big for your clients, too. I remember a colleague telling me I mean, when you're talking about how is someone going to present colleague was telling me they had a client and the school had really messed up. But this was an exceptionally wealthy client who came across as exceptionally wealthy when she walked in a room. And so she was asked to dial it down. So she walked in to the hearing and her kids dinner, blue jeans and a T shirt and no jewelry. And the board almost dropped dead. Really, because they were relying on this person to walk in and look like an extremely wealthy person and present the way she normally does and hoping that that in and of itself would sway the hearing officer. But then she walked in and they're their philosophy has gotten now a good attorney doesn't rely on just that. Right. But to your point, people can present as anything when they walk in that door. Yeah, and they can Say anything. So, like if you if you have someone on the line on the stand and they are flat out lying. What do you do?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 25:08
Well, I mean, it depends on whether I have documentary evidence that I can confront them with that shows they're flat out lying. If this is where a lot of times you do want to have at least partial transcripts of various meetings and recordings. So they can't claim they said something other than what they did. And it's a problem, because in my experience, almost I would say 95% of board, witnesses lie under oath. Yep. And have no problem with it. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 25:38
And it's shocking, sometimes to parents. Right.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 25:41
And absolutely, I mean, honestly, when I first started practicing law, many, many, many moons ago, I was shocked, I assumed that everyone who was put under oath would tell the truth. And then I learned that actually a minority and people put under oath will tell the truth. It's not just in special education. Yeah, just board witnesses. It's pretty rampant,
Dana Jonson 26:04
pretty rampant. And it's I do think that people take it have a different level of respect, being under oath. I do believe that, as a rule, and I do think that that anxiety is heightened in the person when they are lying under oath versus just in a school meeting, I, I absolutely can see that I can see the change in their body language from lying in the IEP meeting to lying on the stand. They're way more uncomfortable. But that's another reason why I like going to the IEP meetings, because they may be more comfortable there. But you do get a sense of who you can trip up and who you can't. And if the school has bad witness, you make sure they know that.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 26:43
Also, I prefer due process hearings to be in person, because if you've got that body language going on the other side, you can start drilling into it. And sort of push them. Yes. completely out of their comfort zone.
Dana Jonson 26:58
Yes. And that's more difficult on the screen. Oh, it's
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 27:01
impossible.
Dana Jonson 27:02
Have you done any hearings on the screen?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 27:04
Well, this one was completely virtual,
Dana Jonson 27:06
Oh, this one was virtual? I don't think I realized that maybe I must have I mean, maybe just because it's so normal now that I didn't think of it. So that must have been really hard, then I didn't even realize this was virtual.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 27:18
Yeah. It was very hard. That's really hard.
Dana Jonson 27:21
Amazing. Your experiences you would still prefer in person, right?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 27:26
Yeah, for that very reason. Just looking through the screen at someone, you can't hold their eyes, you can't sort of judge their expression. You can't figure out how to destroy them. You can't pick
Dana Jonson 27:42
them apart to the degree that you would like to.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 27:47
So bad, you know, so you're when you're a litigator, you just have to admit that you have a dysfunctional personality. Right? Yes. So that's why we do this, right? Yes, exactly. We got paid for being like completely not the social norm. So
Dana Jonson 28:01
I always say that I do that I'm a lawyer, because I think this way, I don't think this way, because I'm a lawyer isn't the only place that that I fit in. So let's talk a little bit about the remedies. Because from the remedy in the decision, it doesn't look like you ever found that one place, did you?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 28:20
Well, no, we found it afterwards. So may Institute was one of the ones that our ED consultant found that he thought was the leading candidate. Ironically, also, the neuropsychologist who did an independent evaluation had put that out as a recommendation as well. So I was able to direct the hearing officer to an email from him saying, you know, this would be a good place. And also ironically, that particular neuro psychologist, I just, you know, I wasn't in love with his evaluation. And I was very concerned about him as a witness, because I've actually seen him under oath before. And so I elected not to call him interesting. Yeah,
Dana Jonson 29:03
that's a risk. Huge risk, right? Like, because, I mean, at first thing you're gonna hear from any attorney is you want to go to a hearing, you need an expert.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 29:12
Yeah. Well, so but we had all these other experts. And but that's usually the one that we want, right? It's the neuro Psych. Fortunately, he had spoken to that entire medical team, and incorporated what they said in evaluation itself. And then all of those medical experts wrote follow up letters saying we agree with that neuro psychologist, this is what she means. So I called every one of those medical experts got it. And that's how I got it. I mean, and this is what happens in a due process hearing like, I had him on my witness list, in case I had to I had to put them on. As things develop, you have to make decisions about what you're going to do and what's the whole in your case, you know, then I was like one of the holes My case is, what's the remedy? And I don't usually call Educational Consultants, but I did with this one. Also, because he's got lots of bonus CDs, right? He's, he's run a therapeutic school. He's been, you know, he's
Dana Jonson 30:15
got credentials that you can defend. Yeah, I love that. When I get stuff from parents who say, you know, this is the expert. And I'm like, well, they don't have any credentials. No one's ever heard of them. They're in a different country. I don't know that I'm going to get anyone on board.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 30:32
He worked really hard for this placement. I mean, yeah. Beyond what he ever has to do with anyone. I was on a low fee. On this case, he did a low fee on this case. So we've sort of felt like, Okay,
Dana Jonson 30:45
we're gonna do we're in it together. Yeah.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 30:47
And, and one of the things we got as a remedy was that he got paid his full fee.
Dana Jonson 30:54
Oh, good. Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask you about was the remedies, because one of the remedies is when you win a hearing is that you're entitled to your legal fees? Right. So what I'm curious about is when you submit that legal fees Bill, what is that going to look like after 11 witnesses and five months? It was
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 31:15
close to 100,000. It was like 98,000.
Dana Jonson 31:19
There were a few things in terms of parents listening to this just passed out. Yeah. But
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 31:26
that's what I tell my my clients, it's between 50 and 100,000, for average due process. Yeah. And on top of that, you may have to be paying experts. And that's not reimbursable.
Dana Jonson 31:37
Right. So you're not going to get back and that I can't risk, you know, but right, we can always risk our fees, right? Because we can try and get them back. So that does put give you more skin in the game, I guess.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 31:49
I mean, they pushed back on a couple of things. One of them is definitely legitimate. I put it in there and hope it would just slip by but it didn't, you know? And then there were a couple that were like, arguable. Right? Right. So I just rolled over on that, because I'd rather get it paid. Right. So I want to be reimbursed 92,000?
Dana Jonson 32:11
Well, and I mean, you know, say it's the only civil rights that we negotiate. So parents are always negotiating way their rights. And we as attorneys are always negotiating away our fees. Yeah, we do nothing on the parents side, but negotiate against ourselves from from the beginning. I don't know of very many of any attorneys who have gone through a full hearing and actually received their full BS, they just don't I also find it when when sometimes I hear people say, Oh, well, litigation fees are so much more than, like, we're never seen. No calm down. Take it down a notch. Uh, yeah, I found the remedies really interesting because one remedy said to find the placement and a consultant is ordered. If you can't find a placement, so the the hearing officer did order that consultant as well, correct?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 33:02
Absolutely. But and the thing with may Institute is they are not going to accept anyone unless they're fully funded, right? Because it's a very expensive place. Yes. So the day this decision came out, the ad consultant got on the phone with them with two words fully funded. And within a week, we had an acceptance, but they had to do a little bit of hiring to bring her on, started right after labor.
Dana Jonson 33:27
Right. And I think that's important too, for parents to understand that not a replacement is ready to take your child that day. There usually an acceptance usually means that they can prepare to do that. So if you come, they will then start preparing. They're not going to staff for a student who's not there yet. That's very typical, then that's great. So now is this child going to be there for too long this is placed there
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 33:53
now. Yeah. So as their stereo slave foot and everything else? I don't see them after that horrendous decision. Yes, coming back and saying no, you're ready to come back to Greenwich, right.
Dana Jonson 34:04
And school districts have done that they have a year after a hearing decision said, Well, we gave it a year, and now they're all ready and everything's back together. But you have that hearing decision under your belt. And that is something you can pull out and use. And it would be foolish to do that, at this stage. And particularly given given how many fights are going on between parents and school districts at you know, there was a time where fighting every hearing decision was worth their time and energy. I don't think it is anymore.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 34:34
But then so there was a significant amount of time between when the decision came out and when she was able to go, you know, in the meantime, he ordered remedies for while she was still in the British school system. And I actually had to get down this state's throat to get them to enforce this decision. Really, I did what happened. They were ordered to have an aide in the home for 30 minutes before the ride to school to help the mom get her ready, and they just didn't do it. And I had to go to the state. And they eventually got to st Greenwich Get your act together, you know, and do it and they finally did. And it made a huge difference. Then she was supposed to have a medical taxi instead of the bus that was so torturous for her never got that I was on the state's case, like every two days. And Greenwich kept giving them a spreadsheet showing all the contacts they made to try to arrange a medical taxi. And I was like, this is just baloney. I mean, I'm literally there was one point where they were like, Okay, well, the legal director Mike McCann and Mary Jean Shugborough, who, unfortunately, was the person assigned to the enforcement part of this. The retired. She's retired, isn't she? Yeah, except she's still a part time consultant for some things. I'm like, Why did you assign us to a part time retired consultant? You know, it's
Dana Jonson 36:04
pretty significant. Yeah.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 36:05
So at one point, they were like, well, we're gonna be on the phone with graduates about this on Monday. And we'll let you know. And I'm like, I want to be on that phone call. But I'm on vacation. And they're like, I'm like, do it on Friday, when I'm not on vacation. Oh, well, we can talk to Friday, and then we'll talk to them on Monday. I'm like, No, I will just be on this call during my vacation. So I'm hiking in Maine and losing a signal every three seconds, and I am yelling my butt off. And my husband's like, Oh, my God. And I like I keep losing the signal dialing back in angrily, and on top. So because anyway, never got the medical text, even though I'm, I'm busting a gut. Then on top of that in between, yeah, when I started getting down on their case, and this phone call, they had finally posted this decision, you know, I got it by email. But then they post all of their decisions, right? And the decisions are written. So there's no identifying information the student has called student parents called parents, etc. But it identifies the witnesses, aside from the parent, and the school district and all that, while they put this one on, and they've blacked out everything that would identify the school district or the school district witnesses. And I was like, Okay, so while I'm on the phone screaming, I'm like, who did this? Which one of you did this? You know, what are you doing? They're like, Oh, we thought it might be too specific. And you know, have identifying information. I'm like, you know, if that was your concern, you would have called me or the parent to ask if we had a problem with it, but you didn't. So it seems to me that you were just trying to not embarrass Greenwich, which should be completely embarrassed about how they treat
Dana Jonson 37:54
my dogs going nuts. No, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Which is that, you know, that seems like protecting the district. Were?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 38:03
Absolutely, yeah. In the meantime, I had gotten a written consent from my clients saying you can put it up on redacted and I was like, I have that. And they put it up on redacted after that. But, you know,
Dana Jonson 38:14
I've seen that before, though, that the school district personnel and school are redacted. Is that a thing? No.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 38:20
If you look on every single other decision, there's not a single redaction. Not one. So who decided to do that? Mary Jean Chabot, she admitted? Did she say why? Because she was afraid it would identify the child's that's a lie. I think so.
Dana Jonson 38:43
I feel like that's a lie. But that sounds interesting. Well, you know, and it really is frustrating, because I always feel like when people say, Oh, but these poor teachers, and you know, it's not really there. I feel like I'm with you on that. And I feel as a former teacher and a former administrator, admittedly, I spent about 10 minutes in each role, but I didn't have a problem being honest in the meeting. Now, that was me. Perhaps I didn't have as much at risk as some people by doing that. And I respect and understand that. But I go nuts. When parents say, well, the teacher told me this, but they won't say it in the meeting. And I always say, well, then I don't trust that teacher. No, I just don't, it's great. You're getting inside Intel. But how do you know? They aren't turning around and saying the same thing to the district about you? Exactly. You know, and they're protecting their butts.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 39:39
Yeah. If they're not willing to say it in the meeting, it's useless. It's absolutely
Dana Jonson 39:42
useless. You can see it when people are scripted. In the meetings, you can tell. And I you know, look, it's not my intention to embarrass anyone. But if you have made a conscious decision to toe the party line, then you are making a conscious decision to take the consequences of that action,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 40:06
this child's speech and language pathologist basically said that she agreed to include oral motor goals to help Sydney learn how to talk, which she could do, right. Basically, as a favor.
Dana Jonson 40:22
Oh, it's an accommodation to the parent.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 40:24
Yeah, cuz she wanted to talk. But you know, she didn't really need it for accessing the general education. Oh,
Dana Jonson 40:29
why do you need language for that narrative? I know, I'm sorry, I just get flip. I can't stop myself. I love that when it's an act as an accommodation. I'm
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 40:38
gonna call out that I'm gonna call it call that speech pathologist out on that? Yep. You know,
Dana Jonson 40:44
accommodation is what the child needs. And you know if that I found that frustrating during the pandemic, too, when people were like, well, I don't want to be on tape or on screen or what have you. And I do understand that there is something to being under a micro microscope and people taking things out of context. We've all had that happen to us at some point on the internet, right? Or in a text, something has been taken in the wrong tone. And I just feel like, Haven't we all been using the internet long enough that we should know that. And you know, that tone gets lost and things get lost in translation. But knowing what happens, and being able to reflect on that and make changes that that's important if we're not willing to do that. And that's where I feel like we are right now in schools. I feel like no one's willing to reflect. Yeah, because everyone's so afraid, even more so than before, to look back and say, Yeah, we messed up. And I understand because there are legal ramifications to saying that, so I get why they're not announcing it to the world. Yeah. But maybe their inside voice like in the back of their head, maybe could say, We screwed up, and we gotta fix this. You know,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 41:58
honestly, I find that the better board attorneys manage that, right? Yes, by having a good relationship with you giving you a call saying, can we talk about some solutions? Right? It doesn't have to be an explicit, we messed up, it can be willing to make it better. Right? Right. Good board attorneys. manage that.
Dana Jonson 42:19
Right. And some board attorneys, you know, when when the parent calls you, I'll say, you know, what, I know, we can get X, Y and Z, which will help bring everyone back to the table and and start the conversation over. And then there are some board attorneys where I have to say, look, I hate to tell you this, but we're going to start off fighting, because that's where you are. And that's unfair to it depends on who represents your district as to what kind of what access you will have to that due process, and whether you will be able to fight them or not. And not every parent has access to us. No, you know, and I was just talking to Christine Lai on my last episode about self in the special legal fund and how they've allowed for so much access for parents afforded us I've you know, regardless, look at this, this is a like I said, it's, you had 11 witnesses, it took five months, this took up a significant amount of your time, most of which you were not paid for at the time. Like that's something else people have to realize we get paid when we work, right. Like I'm not on a salary over here with fabulous benefits.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 43:26
What we eat what we kill, as they say, exactly, we
Dana Jonson 43:29
eat what we kill. Yes. I
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 43:30
mean, I had restricted cash flow for a few months there because it took time,
Dana Jonson 43:35
it takes a tremendous amount of time for us to have even one full blown.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 43:40
If I win, I'll be fine. If I know, I'm gonna be second run for a little bit, you know?
Dana Jonson 43:45
Exactly. So I mean, yeah, I mean, it's tough all the way around, and you have to have the bandwidth to do it. And you have to not be afraid of creating bad law because you have to look at if I lose this. Yeah, the way that I have asked this question, if I lose it, what will that do to other families? Exactly.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 44:04
And this decision, I felt like I got more good law out of this, than expected. So tell
Dana Jonson 44:10
us what you think the main takeaways are that you got from this this decision that you think are solidified that are helpful for parents?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 44:18
Well, the blasting of how the school district treated COVID and learning during COVID? Yes, and the failure to implement the IEP at all, really during COVID. And he runs through that was he on the legal side, the support for you were supposed to do what you needed to do and you didn't do it that leads to combat. So I thought that was good. I thought the way he treated the requirement for residential placement when there were mixed issues of because here we had mental health issues, but also medical issues. But those medical issues were very much intertwined with ability to be educated. Yeah, right. So the way he merged those things In talking about the requirement for a residential placement and the board's duty for that residential placement, I thought that was very helpful. Yeah. So those, those were the two takeaways that I really enjoy.
Dana Jonson 45:15
Now, those are great. And those were great for the rest of us. Thank you. Here. I say, the combat peace to the combat peace is great.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 45:24
Yeah. So that was good, because he talked about how you don't need to have gross violation to get combat if you're not in a aged out situation. Right. And he kind of blasted the whole equities argument, which I was like, I didn't even understand the board's argument. I'm like, this isn't the unilateral placement case. Right. That's third prong about the equities. Right. Yes. So but he turned that around to Well, maybe it's, you know, relevant to combat? Well, and
Dana Jonson 45:56
that's I mean, to explain to parents who don't understand really what we're talking about. No, no, it's good. It's good. Because what what that means is there are specific arguments we have to meet. So the first question I have to ask is, did the school district provide an appropriate program? And if the answer to that is yes, then nothing else matters, right? So there are different prongs of these different arguments. And some of them get to the point of equity. And this one doesn't. So it was unclear where he was going when he went down that road. But what he was doing was taking that equity argument and, and putting it towards compensatory education and saying that, for these reasons, this child does require compensatory education, which is meant to bring the child back up to where they would have been had they had that service. So that's an that's a big win, especially post COVID. Where that's a lot of the arguments is whether it's compensatory or not. So that's, that's a tough argument. And so that was a great win for parents. Yeah. And the last thing I want to ask you about, though, is the quotes throughout the decision, because I started reading and I thought was this a quote from the transcript? So at the beginning of every section, the hearing officer wrote a little quote, and the chapter and pages that it was from so I put that into my trusty Google search, and discovered that he was quoting Helen Keller throughout the whole thing. Can you talk a little about
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 47:24
could have looked at the footnotes, or I could
Dana Jonson 47:27
have looked at the footnotes that would have required this dense dyslexic woman to look at every footnote in this 54 Page decision.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 47:37
Okay. We won't do that to you. He basically took the I guess it was the autobiography of Helen Keller, and took various clubs, this kid touched his heart. And she's touched mine as well. She wants to start a school for kids with disabilities. She's she's just, she's an amazing kid, right? Before she went to me. I went and had dinner with her. And she finally had the new communication device that had actually been recommended and like managed never did. Wow. And we sat and had a really long, pretty fluent conversation about how do we get to the point where she gets to go to May? What was the hearing? Like? Who did I call? What did they say? You know, do I have to go back to Greenwich public schools for like three days to the school they have before I go to make? No you don't, I can see her really doing something in the world. Her physiatrist testified very clearly that he expects big things from her. And the hearing officer clearly felt that this child had a lot of potential and could make some change in the world. I think putting in those quotes helped bring it to like, we need to liberate this kid from her, the confines of her body, right? And let her be the person she can be. So I just about cried when I was reading through the decision with those quotes sprinkled throughout. I talked to a board lawyer afterwards. And she was like, Oh, that was quite a decision, like, I guess was just like, you know, the quotes from having Helen Keller were a little bit of overkill on like, this is run through your veins,
Dana Jonson 49:22
right? And by the way, not if you were there, if you were there. These fit in perfectly. And I did I mean I did read a couple of footnotes narrative, but I liked how he he did talk about while this student is not deaf and blind, they are bound by these disabilities in a way that we can't comprehend. And that it wasn't until, you know Helen Keller, somebody taught her how to communicate that she was able to share herself with the world and that those comparisons he felt applied to this student as well. And I think that just added to the impact of those quotes. And you're right, you could tell that this was a very emotional matter. And this is one of those matters where you read through it and you think, well, it's a slam dunk, right? You read this and you're like, of course, you're gonna win. But that just simply isn't how special education works, you know,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 50:31
and back to what we were talking about at the beginning, you can win, and the remedy can wind up being useless.
Dana Jonson 50:39
Exactly. So there's a lot of risks, but it's decisions like this, that are the reason why we continue to do it, and move forward. And also, make sure that your attorney moving forward and a hearing has the experience and background necessary to and resources. You know, if you don't have experience, you can get experience, right, you can learn, you can get experience, you can get mentored, you can do all those things. But you can't pretend you know what you don't know. Right. And it's important to make sure that your attorney does practice special education law, that is their primary, that they are not doing something else, and are not distracted by other laws that may conflict with the ID EA, which people don't realize there are a lot of educational rules and laws that actually conflict with the ID EA. So if you're more familiar with those than the IDA, then you may not be giving the right advice.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 51:44
It's ironic that a lot of that was passed in order to be parent friendly, and increase parental participation in the education of disabled kids is so non parent friendly.
Dana Jonson 51:56
It's not parent friendly. It's not free to access. No. Because if you want to access it, you need an attorney or an advocate. And those are not free. Just think about the professional development that parents do just to understand how to talk to their attorneys. I mean, to their sorry, to their school districts, you know, like, just to get the vocabulary to advocate for their child, they spend a tremendous amount of money on professional development and all of those pieces.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 52:24
So back up for a second. The other thing I thought this decision was Brown was LRE least restrictive environment.
Dana Jonson 52:31
Oh, yes. Talk about LRE for a second. So
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 52:34
least restrictive environment means that your disabled children are supposed to be educated to the maximum extent possible with non disabled kids. My argument here was because they were screwing up so much. And they really did not include her appropriately in general education things. She was isolated from her peers. And it's even as much as like the chair they were using, they were having her in a wheelchair in her classroom, which separated her and put her on a different level than her peers. And the physical therapist, do
Dana Jonson 53:07
you mean physically, like height wise?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 53:10
Yeah, so she's not even at the table, right. And they were like, you know, the IES were like, You need to get this kind of chair and play her here. So that she's with her peers. And they never did any of that. It was stuff like that. And then she would have total meltdowns, especially Shan Maxon, or whatever, and be removed from the classroom because of her meltdowns, and then be removed to go to the bathroom and spend all sorts of time on there. The general education setting for her was more restrictive than one that was designed for kids with similar disabilities. And he went for that argument, which I really appreciate it.
Dana Jonson 53:51
And that's an amazing argument. And I I make it all the time. It's, like all my philosophical, yeah, argument of what's least restrictive, right. And I had a student once who were arguing over Villa Maria. And in the public school, the student had to be in the sub substantially separate room all day, including lunch, including everything, but at Villa Maria, they could roam the halls, they could have lunch with
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 54:16
their peers. And from my perspective, that is absolutely and Hillary argument in favor of Bill Murray. Yeah,
Dana Jonson 54:22
exactly. Exactly. You know, and so, you know, fortunately, that didn't have to go to a hearing at that point in time, because I don't know where that would have landed. But I do think we are getting closer to understanding that that may be a more a less restrictive environment for that student. It looks restrictive to us,
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 54:41
but if they have no peers to relate to, right, exactly, and they're not being educated with the same materials, you know, if they're sitting in the general education classroom, everyone else is working on, you know, XYZ, but they're working on a different on a different level on a different skill on their own little worksheet. with their pero right here, that's not the least restrictive environment for that child. Now, they're being they're other, they're separated.
Dana Jonson 55:08
Right? They're substantially separate from everybody else, even if you physically sit them in the room and kids do not learn independence through osmosis. No, it's not by sitting near typically developing children that you become typically developing. The goal is to become independent. Right? And what does this child need to become independent? And sometimes what a child needs to become independent is more children like them?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 55:36
Right. Right. So I thought that his ruling on that issue was helpful for this argument.
Dana Jonson 55:43
Yes, yes. That's very helpful for this argument, because it gives us a little something with some meat on it. Yeah, too.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 55:51
When I when I was bringing it up, you could see him going like, that's an interesting point.
Dana Jonson 55:57
Yeah. And now I really hate for to Moses for taking him out of the hearing officer, Bill. I'm hotline.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 56:07
He was he was previously I think he was in a judge advocate corps. Okay. He was a Jag. Um, you could tell you know, he have plenty of litigation experience. Right. Okay. So he was it was sort of easy that way for me, because my litigation arguments like right in a place where he understood them.
Dana Jonson 56:28
Right. That was good, good. Friend, now he's gone. And so this is the this is his swan song, which we will have framed up in many offices around Connecticut. This was incredibly helpful narrative. And thank you so much for coming on. And talking to me about it. I really, I don't think parents really understand everything that goes into due process. They just here fight the school district, I will put the link to your decision in my show notes. So anyone who wants to geek out like the one right? Yes, the unredacted one, so you can see everybody's name and all the footnotes. And she could just click on them and they pop up. So I'll put the link to that there. But if someone's listening, and they're like, Wow, I need to hire Meredith clearly, because she's the only attorney who who can understand me and my child. How do they reach you? How do they find you?
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 57:25
Well, it would be great if I had a website, but I just haven't over the last 20 years have the time to put Yeah, really
Dana Jonson 57:30
had a need. Hmm.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 57:33
Really? I'm gonna do it soon. No, I swear.
Dana Jonson 57:36
Okay, I got I have a good name for you.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 57:40
I've had it in process for a long time. You can look me up on the internet, probably. I don't know some I'll put a link to how you can find this. Sometimes when you put in Meredith Braxton. There's some Meredith Braxton some like soap opera or something.
Dana Jonson 57:54
Awesome. So you show up in the soap opera star? Yeah, I think that's great.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 57:58
No, it's the name of a character.
Dana Jonson 58:03
Even better. All right, I will put a link to Meredith in the in the show notes as well. If you feel you must reach out to Meredith and find her. And thank you so much, Meredith, for coming on and talking to us and talking about your case. And thank you for taking it all the way. Because I think that that is not easy for any of us to do. And
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 58:22
you know, I had not had a case go all the way in like two years. So I was also sort of chomping at the bit. Yeah, because I am a litigator at heart. And I like to go to hearing occasionally. And I was like it was sort of killing me. So I was happy to bring it all the way and I got a few more going into the can this week, then. I think at least one will my gold way.
Dana Jonson 58:49
That will be amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you. And that, that it makes a huge difference for the rest of us. And it definitely helps. helps all of us. You know, when
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 58:58
we talk he's, I was about as pleased as one could be with that decision. It's amazing, even better than I had hoped.
Dana Jonson 59:05
And that's amazing. And the family must've just been beside themselves.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 59:10
You know, and Sydney. She's, she's happy as a clam of May.
Dana Jonson 59:14
I'm so happy and validation. Yeah, it wasn't her right that.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 59:20
Yeah. Oh, but she always knew that.
Dana Jonson 59:22
Yeah, she she's smarter than they are.
Meredith Braxton, Esq. 59:24
She is. She really is.
Dana Jonson 59:27
That's often the problem. Well, thank you so much. Meredith. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to follow this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there's anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I'll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speaker's at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company or even that individual today.
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A key component to public education is that it should be FREE! This includes special education. But what if you can't get the special education your child is entitled to? What happens when your school says "no" to you? There are no special education police to force schools to comply or even just tell them they are wrong. Usually, the only way to enforce your rights is to hire back up - an private service provider, non-legal special education advocate, or special education attorney.
Being able to hire a special education advocate or attorney, however, is as much a privilege as being able to "evacuate" on a moment's notice. It sounds easy, but it's not easy and it's not free. Especially post(ish)-pandemic, most families do not have the funds required to hire the professional help they need to access their child's "free" rights.
Christine Lai is the parent of a child with special education needs who had to fight her school district to get what her child was entitled to. Christine has experienced first hand the strain this puts on already struggling families. That is why Christine founded the Special Education Legal Fund, or SELF.
SELF provides grants to parents of children with disabilities to help fund the professional advocacy families need. The grants SELF provides can provide payment towards legal services, a year of non-legal advocacy, or a combination thereof. Today Christine meets with me to discuss why and how families seek out SELF grants, trends in family needs, and the successes they have seen with this program. Maybe you need a SELF organization near you!
Want to seek out Christine? You can find her here: https://spedlegalfund.org/
You can always message me at [email protected]
FLASHBACK: Christine has joined us before! You can check out our last episode together here
Transcripts are added shortly after episode is published and can be found at SpecialEd.fm
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
parents, pandemic, special education, families, attorney, child, school districts, people, support, school, process, absolutely, clients, special ed, advocate, years, law, kids, advocacy, evaluations
SPEAKERS
Christine Lai, Dana JonsonDana Jonson 00:08
Today I'm here with Christine Lai. I'm so excited. Thank you for coming back. And joining me at special ed on special ed Christine Lai is the director and founder of the special education legal fund, which I will explain in just a second. Hi, Christine. Thanks for joining me. Hi,Christine Lai 00:24
Dana. I'm so happy to be back.Dana Jonson 00:26
I know I love having you here. Let me play my disclaimer, and then we'll get started. Let's do it. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you're listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider license in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. So Christine, first, let me explain to people what special legal fund is, I should probably maybe you could do that. Because your background, you're not like a special ed teacher or you don't provide services, right?Christine Lai 01:04
No, I mean, we are, you know, as we've spoken about in the in the past, we are a Grants making organization, we provide grants to families in need, who have children in the special education process. We provide grants to people who need an attorney, we provide grants to families who need an advocate. And we also provide, you know, some informational resources through our parent webinar series, for parents that are just, you know, really dipping their toe in the process and, or are fully immersed in the process and are just trying to figure out, you know, what the next step is, you know, so that's basically what we do, you know, we were founded in 2018, to provide those resources, the grants, the knowledge, the support, since that time, you know, this is our fifth grant cycle this year. And we have been so blessed with the support of attorneys like Dana to have provided grants of over $550,000, to, you know, almost 200 families in 60 school districts across Connecticut, and Westchester County, New York. And that's been a real blessing for us, we've been really thrilled, because those grants, you know, in total, in that time, have yielded over six and a half million dollars in educational improvements for those families, whether you're talking about better support, better evaluations, out placements, transportation, compensatory education, all of those things kind of roll into that big number, we've been really, really pleased to be able to provide that support for families.Dana Jonson 02:33
And we are we in the advocacy world are thrilled that you can provide that support to families, because one of the things I hate about what I do is that families have to have money to access me. And I can apologize for making a living. And I you know, I'm not going to, but I do recognize that that is a pretty strong barrier. And I think that your program allows a lot of us to give help to parents that we otherwise wouldn't have, wouldn't have access to us. And that's a little bit of what I wanted to talk about with you. Because you're dealing with families who don't have the funds don't have the resources. And oftentimes those families don't even know getting an advocate or an attorney is an option. I know sometimes people call my office and we say you should call self and go that process. But as a rule, people don't usually call you and say I'm calling because I can't afford you and I want information. Although when they do I do still talk to them and give them information. So I'm okay with those phone calls. I don't turn those phone calls away. But I was curious. And we've been through a lot since 2018. What kind of trends do you see with families who can't obtain lawyers because I I'm finding post pandemic and I don't think we're post pandemic, but you know what I mean? Yeah, pose the pandemic closures. Yeah, we're seeing that school districts don't have the resources to handle anybody. Yeah. And I'm finding that it's even harder for parents to get anything without some form of representation or support. No, that's04:06
absolutely right. We as an organization, the support we provide is to families who are below 300% of the federal minimum poverty line, it was important for us to have a little bit of a range in the families that we support, because I realized that you know, for families that are very, very under resourced, there are other resources that exist, you know, like legal aid or, you know, sliding scale advocacy services or whatever. I know that you don't have to be below the poverty line, to not be able to afford an attorney. You know, that is absolutely, you know, 100% the case, this Fund was established for those families who were maxing out their credit cards, really taking their 401k down, you know, like those families are sort of the core of the group that we envisioned when we started the fund. This doesn't really answer your question. Your question is, yeah, have you seen have we seeing changes in the families. And since it's since the pandemic, since we reopened for the pandemic, I mean, the most significant change that we saw, after the pandemic, after, you know, and I want to say this, going back to like October of 2020, we didn't really know what was going on was going to go in New. And I remember that first month, we had had a virtual fundraiser, we weren't sure, if we were still going to be alive. You know, it was a very, you know, sort of difficult time, you know, in the nonprofit world, and obviously, in all worlds, and we had been running before the closure, you know, maybe five or six applications a month, we had traditionally given three grants per month. So, in a good in any given month, you know, we'd see four applications, we'd decline one, we'd see five, we declined to in October of 20 2015, right off the bat 15 1617. And that was kind of when I knew that this had been a real game changer, not only for the education world, the world in general, but specifically for these families. Because what I was seeing, we're not just, you know, and I don't mean to say just this, that's not what I meant to say. But prior to the payment pandemic, we would see a child who had been in the special education system for years was 14 and couldn't read, you know, very, very dire situation, post pandemic, we would see that same child, but that child would have then also been hospitalized one, two or three times, and then dealing with a crippling anxiety and depression and all of the other kind of ancillary comorbidities that come with, yeah, the predominant learning disorder, and the inability of the school to support that learning disorder. So that's really what we saw as the main difference. The other difference that we saw was as as as to your point, the schools are not able to support what they were able to support four years ago. You know, a few years ago, we would say I'd have a family come and they'd say we'd look we're looking for an outplacement, and I'd say, Okay, why don't you go back and get an IEE? You know, you just had your triennial, you just had an evaluation, go to ask the district for an IE get an independent, neuro Psych. And then after you've gotten that, come back to me, and we will go through this process. And you can go through the outplacement and they would be like, right, and they would go and do that. And they would come back to me and the process would proceed. Now. I don't know of any school district that's like, yeah, here's your IE, you know, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, fighting everything. And that is, that is a real change that we've had to deal with over the last, you know, especially the last couple of years is when that'sDana Jonson 07:40
yeah, that's what we're seeing too. And, and the I II, for anyone listening who doesn't know, we just I just talked about that my last episode is an independent educational evaluation. And for any matter to move forward, you know, the whole IEP,07:54
it is the linchpin, it is so Lynch is the linchpin, nothing happens without it, you know, exactly. It's like the roadmap, you know,Dana Jonson 08:03
everything from the from everything stems from the event. And as you said, you know, parents have a right to ask for it. They don't have an automatic right to get it. Yes, that's right. And I am finding that school districts who historically would have always granted it08:23
exact are now fighting them. Exactly. And that's as well. Yeah. And it's not, because it's the you know, as you know, yeah. It's like one of the most important protections that parents have, yeah, process, it is a second opinion, it is so important. And, and ifDana Jonson 08:41
the school is not, if the school is seeing one child, and the family is seeing another child, how are you going, if reconcile is gonna evaluate that child, but that child is behaving differently in school than they are at home? You know, it's not giving you the information that you need. Absolutely. To program. And, you know, and we also see, and I say this all the time post pandemic, every case in our office is mental health and or reading. Yeah, those are both that's, that's, that's exactly. That's what one stem from the other? Yeah, you know, and, and so those evaluations are critical. And we are finding them. I'm a little worried for special education, because I'm finding them being ignored more and more and more, you know, we get the ice in the school district looks at it and says, This is all great new information that we already had were already addressing. Right, right. And you know, it's not successful. Do you find that when parents come to you? Are they coming to you having like, exhausted all their options, or are they coming to you because they don't understand or know what their options09:52
are? It's a combination. I would say that the number one reason for a family or parent Come to us is if they feel that trust has been broken with the with the school, it doesn't have to do it can have happened over the course of eight or nine years, you can have happened over the course of eight or nine months. But really the common link is that broken faith is that broken trust. And, and that's really I mean, I could see that in a, in a parent of a four year old, and a parent of a 14 year old, same exact situation. And the knowledge of the system, on the parent level, you know, can vary a lot in that. But that isn't really the driving force of what brings a parent to call us. What it really is, is they feel like trust is broken, and they have nowhere else to go.Dana Jonson 10:48
Yeah, that is a very hard thing to fix. That is really is a very difficult thing to fix. And one of the things that I find does fix that are outside evaluations. And that's, it's really hard to get right now. It is really hard. I11:04
mean, for years, you know, I couldn't drive by my son's elementary school, I would take a different road, you know, because there were so much, you know, anxiety. So, yeah, in that, in that situation, it was really difficult. So I get it, you know, and it seems, you know, counterintuitive for me to say, collaboration is really, you know, sort of the name of the game. But, you know, for most of these families, you know, I mean, I look at a lot of families, and I say to them, you know, you are going to be in the special education system for what, 15 years, 16 years, you know, however old your child is, you know, versus, you know, 18 or 22, or when you see them coming out, you know, that is a long time, you know, you have to think about really long, really long time, you have to think about the long game, you know, and sometimes the long game is not served in the long run by being very combative. It's served by, you know, sort of getting the right advice and figuring out what your goal is, and whether it's realistic, and whether it is like within the scope of the law. You know, lots of times people want things that are not in the scope of the law, you know, I mean, that's yes, you know, that's definitely something. And it's a different issue, figuring that all out, it's not necessarily in your best interest to blow up your relationship with the school, when your kid is seven, you know, to get another decade, you definitelyDana Jonson 12:29
have to think long and hard before you make that decision. And that's a really good point. Because I say that to parents all the time is you have the right to privately educate your child any way you want. But if you want something from the public school district, if you want them to pay for any of it, if you want them involved in any way, shape or form, there's a process we there's a process. That's absolutely right, broken process, but it's the only one we've got,12:55
I mean, I'm not gonna call it a crime, but it is, you know, a shame that, you know, this is a civil right, you know, special education is a civil right. But it is a right, that requires resources, in many cases, to enforce, you know, the enforcement of this is 100% on the parents, which is not fair, despite all of you know, the protections that are built in the law, that is just the way that it plays out sometimes. So, you're right, it's 100% of process, you know, my 16 year old, went to the DMV yesterday, and was not able to take his driver's test, because we did not have a certificate from the driver school saying they had completed Driver's Ed. And they were like, boom, it's done, we've, you know, we've closed this out, can't take the test today. And that's a little bit like the special education process, you know, it's, that process has to be followed, you know, step by step by step by step by step, you have to get in that line and get another line and get the other line and nobody at the DMV is going to tell you how to do it. Right. And you better have all your, like ducks in a row before you get there. It's a difficult process. And parents a lot of times struggle with that, you know, with with having to have all that together, it requires a lot, a lot.Dana Jonson 14:06
It takes a lot of energy, first of all, just in general. And then if you don't know exactly what you're looking for what's important, then you don't know what to document or Right. Right. And, you know, it's funny, because a lot of times people assume that hiring a lawyer will make things worse, like right off the bat. Right. And sometimes they do sometimes and sometimes in a way that it has to, you know, like you're not getting anywhere. So yes, it's going to be a little bit aggressive. But the other piece is we are personally invested. Yeah, we I look at it and I say they're not following the process. And so I go to the other attorney and I say your client is not doing what they're supposed to do. And if it's a decent other attorney, you know, they might not say to me, you're right, they screwed up. In fact, they definitely won't say that. But they will likely go back to their client and say You guys gotta clean this up. Yeah, You need to fix it. Yeah. And that's I mean, a lot, not all board attorney, some are some there are some out there that will fight just for the sake of fighting for, you know, where I have to tell my client, I can tell you right now they're going to fight us at every step of the way. But as a rule, you know, when attorneys get involved, sometimes things get resolved very quickly. Yeah.15:21
Because there's a clarity and a structure that is applied to the process. And also, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter how, like, good you are, you know, as a parent advocate, or, or even if you're an attorney yourself, it is your child. So, that element of worry of care of emotion that can distort the way that you react, you know, you know, I mean, I had an attorney, kick,Dana Jonson 15:50
my PPTs. And my husband was in agreement. So like, that's a whole different issue.15:55
No, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's really, so I mean, IDana Jonson 15:58
can't be objective when it's your kid, no, you can't, I mean, just can,16:02
you can't, and I do think though, you know, kind of getting back to your original thought, it's very difficult. If, you know, you don't know the process, it's very difficult if you don't know what to do, or what to ask, the first thing that I tell because I get a call every day from someone, not necessarily a self client, but someone who's kind of, you know, not unsure and doesn't know what's going on, and what should I do, and you know, and the first thing I always tell them to do, is to make a timeline of what has transpired with your child, it can be on a notebook, it can be in your iPhone notes, you can get super, you know, OCD and do an Excel spreadsheet, whatever. But you need to write down in a chronological order, with the years with the dates, what exactly happened, and when. And if you have backing, you know, documentation of that incident, if there was a communication, all of that should be in there, too. And once you can look at that was I mean, I don't think that anyone should go to talk to a professional attorney or advocate without doing that first, that's the first thing that they should do. Because you cannot have a coherent conversation with a professional without having done that. That's the first thing when clients hire, I've failed that both times. I mean, I've failed to do that. Just you know, in general, like when I, when I'm granted and billing parents what to do not following my back and doing it myself now. But yeah, no, but that's the first thing we do. And we work with our clients to create that timeline and attach any documents that are related to it, because it's astounding. Well, IDana Jonson 17:38
mean, we've all heard them all, I don't know, if we have it there, these studies were four people observe the same car crash, and they see different of course, different thing, of course, and that's just a real thing, you know, so it's so critical, to have that documentation to keep yourself, you know, to keep it for yourself, so that you don't get out of control, too. Because sometimes we just get so as parents, it's our children.18:01
Yeah. And there's also when you look at a list like that, and you and you look at, like, the experience that your child has had, you know, or not had, or whatever it is you're looking at, it's always important to remember that sometimes stuff is bad, but it isn't illegal. Sometimes things have happened, and they're bad. But yeah, like, no law has been broken, you know. So, you know, doing that allows you to kind of like really just get organized about you know about the process. And the other thing I always tell parents, you know, I used to do a little workshop of this is to create a binder of your documents, take your three inch, three ring binder, punch holes in it, get a set of subject dividers, and divide and put everything in the binder, label it with the year and have all the stuff in there. Because you know, if you go to a meeting, or you know, or have a Zoom meeting or whatever, and you don't have everything in front of you, you're definitely going to feel, you know, and this is regardless of whether you have an attorney or an advocate or not, you're definitely going to feel like out of place and out of control.Dana Jonson 19:04
If you were part of it, is they somebody at that table? Has your file in front of them? Absolutely. So somebody at that table can access anything in your file and pull it out for just19:16
at any time. Yeah, anytime at any time. And there's nothing worse than sitting there. And thinking, you know, like, where's that document and not being able to find it? Or, you know, alternatively being in the meeting and saying, you know, oh, this thing that happened in you know, last fall, rather than saying, Charlie, on September 15 said this, you know, yeah, which statement is more powerful, you know, the first one or the second, you know, so all of these things, anything that you that a parent can do to make and this is like this is before you even start going on the internet and Googling things about special education and gray boxes and stuff like that. It's like you know, half of the game is Figuring out where you are, and getting organized. And then, at that point, you know, there are great resources online, there are great training resources that parents can use. But sometimes you can do all those things. And you're still not. You're still stuck. Yeah. Where an attorney or an advocate can be a lifesaver in the process?Dana Jonson 20:22
Well, yeah, I mean, knowing the law, unfortunately, isn't enough that that helps you know, enough to be dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Because what parents don't understand in the law is that there's a lot interpreted through cases through hearings. Yeah, case law. And, you know, if you aren't familiar with that, then your version of what's appropriate may not be the courts version of what's appropriate, fighting the wrong thing. And I've, I've had that happen, where parents are like, here, I've got the smoking gun, and they start explaining something to me that is so irrelevant, and has nothing to do with special ed. But then something they say, I'll be like, wait, wait, let's ask about that. You know, and it's something else that they didn't think was important. And I think, you know, going back to whether parents have the understanding, or the knowledge, I mean, self does a great job to providing those of those workshops, I mean, the virtual revolution, webinars, thank you. That's what I was looking for the virtual webinars, I redo everything virtually now. So it gets confusing, you know, on educating parents, and I do you think that those, though, I always tell parents, though, online, anything, support groups, workshops, so helpful, so supportive, take it all with a grain of salt.21:41
It's not, as we say, in our disclaimer, a replacement for the advice of a qualified special education attorney, it just has a specific one on one about knotted, it is it is not a replacement for that, you know, you can ask all the questions that you want in the online forum, and make your question as specific as possible. But it is not the same thing. And that is challenging it that is very challenging and difficult for families. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, for my specific cohort of families, you know, my specific cohort of families is an under resourced population, this is a population that, you know, does not have the funds readily available to hire an advocate or an attorney. This is a population that by and large, doesn't have the, you know, the the time resources to be online googling things, and going to parent trainings and stuff like that. And this is very often a, you know, a population where English is not the primary language, where, aside from English not being the primary language, which makes it difficult to advocate the understanding of this system, that is the United States and the United States education system, that understanding is not there, you know, putting aside the special education, you know, piece of it, I had a call with a parent recently. And she had been going back and forth with her school district for quite some time. It was like four or five years, I don't remember exactly. And she finally out of a sense of frustration called the State Department of Education. And they said, you know, have you heard of this thing called Special Education? And she had not, no one at any point? Oh, my God, you know, she's a first generation immigrant. English is her second language. And no one at any point in the five years previous to that had thought to say to her, what about special education? You know, does your child need special education, and until she called the State Department of Education, and they told her, and then they instructed her, you know, good on them, of you know, exactly what she had to do to make a referral and to get into the system. But because this is a system that is, you know, unique to the United States, and it's very likely that if you emigrated from China or Namibia or you know, whatever. Exactly, with a vastly different legal system, with a vastly different structure, you wouldn't know education system, you wouldn't know that this is even a thing that you can ask for.Dana Jonson 24:10
And then add to that, that even different districts handle different things differently. You can't guarantee that you're gonna walk into a school and have it go one way, right. I think it's really important that people understand that our most vulnerable population really needs money to access their rights. That's absolutely right. And, you know, I get frustrated because it's also the only civil rights we negotiate. It is absolutely, you know, it's the only civil rights that we say, okay, you were supposed to do this, but I'll settle for that. Right. And we do it all the time. And so that's very frustrating to see but also, as you know, as an attorney, it's hard because we also, it is a civil right. I mean, it is hard Do you charge for your time? Yeah, I do, I do it,25:03
all of you, every single person that practices this field of law, doing it, because they want to make millions, because obviously, you will be doing something else. If that were the case, you all do this, you know, I mean, very similar to the reason that that I got into this, most of you, attorneys and advocates, the ones that I know, have entered this field, because you've been touched in some way by this process, whether it be as a, you know, school administrator in your, you know, on your, you know, on your end, or as a special, I think you were a special ed teacher, as well. And, and, you know, about a variety of kids with disabilities got a variety of kids with disabilities. And exactly, so most of the attorneys, you know, and I try to, you know, say that to my clients when we have this conversation, or maybe I don't say it enough, is, you know, I'm always very frank about what my experience it has been, and why I do this, and why this is something that, you know, is very important to me, it's also equally as important to almost every attorney and advocate that I know, that feels that this is a civil right, that they're that it is a civil right, and that they've been touched by it in some way.Dana Jonson 26:15
Yeah, well, and that's why organizations like the special legal fund are so important, because as you said, there is a category of people who don't qualify for some of the free advocacy that's out there, but can't afford the advocacy they need. And it is a barrier, and it is something I wish we could make more accessible to parents, which is why I do this podcast is why I absolutely speak it's why we all answer the phone even when someone starts with I can't afford to pay you. Yeah. You know. So it's interesting to me, though, to see that you're kind of seeing the same things we are as far as you know, with your, the clientele coming to you. Right. So versus the clientele that comes to me first, we're seeing a lot of the same things. And I think that goes to disabilities don't discriminate?27:05
No, they do not, they absolutely don't. And we've in the last couple of years, a lot of things have bubbled up to the surface, because of the pandemic, if I if I could think about, like, what the, the aggregate impact of that pandemic has been on my families, it's like a lot of kids were kind of getting by, they had a, you know, a modest amount of support, they were kind of eking it out on a daily basis. And then the pandemic came, and what was sufficient, in a quote unquote, normal environment became very insufficient, in that pandemic postponed very fast, and very fast. And then all kinds of other you know, comorbidities, as we say, started to pop up, you know, maybe they had been maybe the anxiety had been managed, maybe the depression, had, you know, not been debilitating, all of these kinds of things that come because you are not successful in an environment, right began to rear their ugly heads. So instead of seeing a child with one, you know, predominant issue, you're seeing a child where, you know, they have a predominant learning disability, but they also have significant case of school refusal, because of the anxiety and depression that has developed over the last 18 months. Yes, I get it. It's all brand new, you know, it's like an iceberg. You know, it's another part of the iceberg that's peeking above the surface or barrier.Dana Jonson 28:31
It's just another barrier.28:33
Yeah, exactly.Dana Jonson 28:34
Yeah. And I think that it is, you know, you're right, that schools aren't, that's something I would like to see as a change is is more mandatory education to parents. On some level? Absolutely. A lot of my clients are attorneys even. Yeah, no. And actually, sometimes attorneys are the easier clients because they know they don't understand it. Like, right, so they're like, do they do this? Yeah, they're like, you know, yeah, you know, I'm not gonna do it over to you. So yeah, exactly. So sometimes they're actually the easier clients. It is hard when it's something you think you understand. And you think that, you know, and there are no special ed police. So no one's going to the school telling them what to do, unless you do something. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's really it. You're the gatekeepers. Parents are the gatekeepers, they are the only people who can hold schools accountable. What I don't understand is why school districts spend so much money fighting parents when they should be spending their money lobbying to be better funded. That's that's that's29:37
educating parents at a very early level. Yeah. You know, like I spoke a little bit earlier about broken trust. And what happens, you know, with families is, you know, they go to you like the case of this family, you know, this mother that I recently spoke to, you know, so you go to your school and you say, I think my child's having difficulty and Maybe you do this at pickup, or maybe you do this, like, you know, outside of the classroom? Or maybe you happen to run into them when you're doing lunch duty, or whatever it is, you have that conversation that teachers like, oh, yeah, you know, let me look into it, I, you know, haven't noticed that, but you know, maybe I'll look into it or whatever. And then they forget, or they don't move forward with that request. And it's not because the teacher doesn't care. It's because in a lot of cases, the teachers managing 25 children, and the request was not made, the way that it has to be made in order toDana Jonson 30:30
move forward. Right? It wasn't made in a way that triggered an obligation Exactly.30:35
And then the parent does that three or four times gets no response. And then they're angry, because they feel like they've made this request three, four or five times, and that the school is not listening. Well, the school is not listening, because the request wasn't made in a way that triggers a response. One of the first things I say is like, like you need to stop having conversations in the hallway, everything you do, should be asked, don't text, anybody Don't you know, everything you should do, even if you have a conversation in the hallway, go back and send an email summarizing what you said, in the hallway to all the relevant people. But, you know, but that's not well understood. You know, none of that is well understood, because parents, broadly speaking, feel that schools are their friends, and they want them to be their friends, they want to look at the school as another person that cares about their child, when what the school is, is an institution, it can be, and you have to do things in a specific way, in order to get the response that you need. When the communication piece breaks down, because the parents not doesn't know how to ask, and the school isn't responding. That's where I see a lot of like, you know, I mean, there's there's a lot of headway that can be made there. You know, IDana Jonson 31:48
agree. And that's clarifying something. Yeah. I mean, that's something that I will see. Is this all broke down over miscommunication? Absolutely. Now, and that's exactly31:57
now one person feels they've been lied to. And the other part, you know it, right. Yeah. And then you then it's like, how do you get back from that?Dana Jonson 32:04
Right? Or, you know, like, if you look at perspectives from teachers and parents, you know, I've had parents that say to me, Well, you know, they never give me data unless I asked, and the teachers perspective is, but I give them the data every time they ask, they're32:17
right, right, exactly.Dana Jonson 32:19
The problem? Is the problem. Yeah, the ask is what's missing? Right, the parents would like you to give them the data without the masking. So that has not been expressed clearly. And I do hear that a lot from parents when they call me they're like, but that should be clear. And yes, it should be. But it isn't. And it just doesn't trigger the responsibilities. And, yeah, I mean, that I would love to see32:43
better and better parent training at an earlier level, better understanding of like, a parents, you know, a parent, a child's rights, better screening at a younger age, you know, most of the stuff that we see where a kid has been in the system, you know, for four or five years, and it's not making progress and reading or whatever, it's like, better screening at age like, you know, five, six, yes, would have made huge differences in the outcome, rather than what it devolves to.Dana Jonson 33:15
Well, and it's often more expensive to not provide services, because 100% of the time, oh, hard. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's more expensive to not do that. Because if you can get things done early. And the problem we're having schools didn't do a lot during the pandemic, very few schools even met their minimal obligations during the pandemic. And so we have a lot of that left over.33:39
If you have a kid that can't read at the age of 12, and they have to be outplays, to a school that costs $100,000 a year, like you have not saved anything. And if you manage the school, to push that child off to graduation without producing a functional reader, guess what, you've pushed the cost of that on to society, because a person that can't read and is functionally like not able to read and use mathematics cannot have a productive life, or job. And then you're talking about like, crime, and you know, and the things and what keeps up his yacht. Exactly. And theyDana Jonson 34:17
need to be supported by somebody and exactly a healthy problem that needs to be paid for by somebody by somebody. That's all coming out of our taxes. And, you know, that's a lot. They were disservice to at a very young age. And, and, you know, we're, we're seeing a lot more come out since the pandemic and just going back to something you said earlier, which was about people seeing the reading and stuff like that. I've had a lot of parents call me who genuinely felt like Special Ed was just a money stuck, and then saw the issues in their children. Yeah. And we're like, I and they were at home looking at their play. Exactly. Yeah, because You know, I know for me, I got through high school dyslexia I got through high school without reading a book, and nobody knew. So, you know, because I had all these clues, if you'd put me at home, in my bedroom to work on a laptop, I would not have had any of those clues. And, you know, I would have fallen apart. So that's what happened to a lot of kids. And, you know, I've had parents, it's just an interesting because when the pandemic started, and people were saying, but our kids aren't getting educated, there was part of me that felt like, yep, that's how we feel.35:29
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Our kids have never been educated. Right, exactly. And, you know, it's like, whatever gaps, you know, like, I'm like, the pandemic learning gap. It's like, whatever gaps existed for our kids, before the pandemic are worse now by a factor of like, five. And yes, there's a learning gap. But the learning gap is greater, and more severe, and much more difficult to overcome. For kids who are in special education, before the pandemic, and after?Dana Jonson 36:01
Well, there's some windows for skills. So some kids at a certain age won't learn the skill. Yeah, so we missed the window. For kids who say, Aren't diagnosed with autism until they're 14. Yeah, you know, you've missed36:14
a significant window. Because, you know, the early years are when the brain is most plastic and most able to change to grow and to, you know, and to accept, you know, new behaviors and new conditions and all that other kind of thing. And that's what we missed. For a lot of kids, a lot of those kids were at home, you know, not turning on the computer screen now. And not, not at all, you know, and not getting services and not or not even being identified, you know that right?Dana Jonson 36:45
Oh, that was that was big to the big one. Yeah. Well, I think it sucks that we've gotten to a place where for people to access their civil rights, they have to have an attorney at least an education, or an advocate of some sort. And I'm, I don't see it getting necessarily better. But I do love that we have organizations like self out there to help parents. So if somebody's listening to this, and they were like, Oh, my god, that's amazing. I need to give a huge donation to Sal, how would they find you,37:16
they should visit our website, which is www dot SPE D legal fund.org. And they can make a donation on the website, you can also visit our website, if you are a parent, that that is in need of support. Our webinars are online, and our application process is accessible online now. So if you are interested in, you know, starting the application process for either an advocacy grant or legal assistance grant, you visit our website, you you know, find the page, I think it's I think it's apply now, I mean, I used to be programs, but now it's so it's pretty direct, and then you start the process that way, you know, we review cases on a monthly basis, all of the applications, you know, the application deadline is the 15th of each month, we interview every client by the 22nd. And we render a decision by the end of the month for each family throughout the academic year. So that's kind of the the way the you know, the system as it is for us works.Dana Jonson 38:14
It's amazing. And it really has made a difference in a lot of people's lives. And if you're out there, and you're a motivated parent, and you want to help other parents and put together a fund like this in your state, please call Christine and Oh, absolutely, I'll leave you how to get I'm38:27
happy to tell the story of my throwing spaghetti against the wall. Because that's what it was. But absolutely, because it is an it is definitely a need in every state, every state is different. But what every state has in common is that children are slipping through the cracks. And that is what you know, self is meant to do is really, I can't change, you know, the system. I'm not smart enough to rethink you know, what is exactly wrong with the special education system as it is today. But what self does is it, you know, helps to catch families that are slipping through those cracks. That's really the mission as a whole.Dana Jonson 39:05
That's amazing. And I think you guys are pretty successful. So thank you so much for everything. And39:12
I love this podcast. I will come back anytime. Thanks. Thanks for havingDana Jonson 39:16
me. I'm having you. So I know you'll be back. Yeah.39:21
Absolutely fantastic. And happy to talk about anything and everything. But yeah, it's been great. And thanks for having me today.Dana Jonson 39:29
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to follow this podcast so you don't miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there's anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I'll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speaker's at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency organization, employer or company or even that individual today. -
Today Diane Wilcutts, a special education advocate from Connecticut, joins me to talk about Independent Educational Evaluations or IEEs. Evaluations are a critical piece of the special education process, as the evaluation is where it all begins. But what if you don't agree with your school evaluation? That is where IEEs come in.
You can find Diane's website here: http://www.educationadvocacyllc.com/
Diane's email address: http://www.educationadvocacyllc.com/
You can always find me here: [email protected]
FLASHBACK: Did you know Diane has joined us before? Yup! To discuss extended school year, or ESY. You can find that episode here https://five.libsyn.com/episodes/view/14855723
Transcript for this episode will be posted shortly after publishing.
You can find them at https://specialed.fm -
State Complaints are just one dispute resolution options available to Parents of children with special education needs. Our favorite advocate, Stacey Tié, joins me to break down the State Complaint process, why we use them, and how they can help.
A little on Stacey:
What Stacey loves most about advocacy work is giving parents the opportunity to breathe. Often parents know something’s not right but don’t know how to advocate for what their child needs. She listens, helps them organize their thoughts, documents their needs, and makes a plan. Stacey ensures that parents are viewed by all parties as valued members of their child’s special education team. And, during the key meetings, Stacey’s clients don’t have to worry about the process, preserving the record, or reading the room. She’s got that covered.You can find Stacey at [email protected]
You can find me at [email protected]
FLASHBACK: In the episode "How independent are you?" I speak with Dr. Erik Mayville, clinical psychologist and Board Certified Behavior Analyst, to discuss the components of psycho-educational evaluation and what role independent evaluators play in the special education realm. You can find that episode here https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/how-independent-are-you
TRANSCRIPTS for this episode can be found at SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
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Knowing your child’s IEP team isn’t enough. To be the best advocate for your child, you need to know who makes the decisions, how, and when.
Your local Board of Education (BOE) consists of lay representatives who live in your community and are selected by you (in some areas there are appointed school boards, which are selected by either the mayor or county freeholders, who are selected by you). Your BOE members are your neighbors, parents & grandparents of local children, local business owners, and other ordinary citizens. Your BOE members are non-partisan and receive no pay or benefits for their public service. They work for you, so you should know who they are and what they do.
Stacey Tié and Julie Best are two parents running for their local BOE in Darien, CT. Today they join me to discuss the role of BOEs, how they and their children have benefitted from their involvement, and why they have decided to actually run for seats on their BOE. Tune in to hear how you can use your BOE to your advantage.
You can find Stacey & Julie at
https://julieandstaceyforboe.com/
You can find me atFLASHBACK: We touch on the important issue of students who still require remote learning for the 2021-2022 school year and you can hear last week’s episode on this issue here
https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/why-we-need-learning-options
TRANSCRIPTS for this episode can be found at SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
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Going back to school in person shouldn’t be a choice between a family member and an education. But for some families, it is just that. For children living with immunocompromised family members, going back in person really isn’t a choice at all. It’s not even one of the options.
This episode isn’t about special ed, it’s about education and why we need learning options for children who can’t attend school in person, disability or not.
Today I talk with Dr. Marney White, both a professor at Yale School of Public Health and parent to an elementary school child who can’t go back in person. While her district provided an outstanding remote program during the COVID pandemic (yes, there are a few schools out there who rocked it), they are refusing any kind of instruction for her child next year even though his in-person attendance could kill his mother. Not a fair burden to put on a 5th grader. Because the State won’t mandate a remote option, schools are refusing to offer it.
Special education attorney Andy Feinstein also joins us to discuss the legal components of this discrimination issue and how he is helping Dr. White get her child the free public education to which he is entitled.
We discuss why it is NOT a choice to go back, why schools are refusing to help, and what other families in this situation should do.
You can find Dr. Marney White in the Facebook group CT Families in Need of Remote Learning:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/connecticutremote
You can find Attorney Andy Feinstein at The Feinstein Education Law Group:
https://www.attorneyfeinstein.com/
You can find me at [email protected]
Thanks for tuning in!
Transcripts for this episode will be available on SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
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Justyna & Meghan from The Hangout Spot join me today to discuss how kids are adjusting to “back to normal” back to school! While I wouldn’t necessarily call it “normal” we are going back and most kids haven’t had an opportunity to flex their social muscles in a while. They will need time and patience while they acclimate. Justyna & Meghan talk about skills students will need and what you you and your kids can starts working on now.
Justyna & Meghan were on a year ago, right after they opened The Hangout Spot to talk about how they are using ABA methods to help kids learn how to "hangout":
https://specialed.law/wanna-hangout-i-know-just-the-spot/
In 2020 Justyna & Meghan opened The Hangout Spot, a behavior analytic social skills development center where all children have a right to meaningful relationships with others. They strive to eliminate barriers to friendship and empower children to be socially successful across the lifespan using the principles of Applied Behavior Analysis. Everything they do is rooted in research, empirically validated, and proven to work. They conceptualize critical, previously considered “tricky to teach” skills through a scientific framework. In doing so, they achieve socially-significant change for kids by providing the support they need to develop real connections with other people beyond the walls of The Hangout Spot.
You can find Justyna & Meghan and learn more about The Hangout Spot here:
https://www.thehangoutspotllc.com/
TRANSCRIPT for this episode can be found at specialed.fm shortly after the episode publishes.
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My office mates join me to sum up IEP season, discuss the trends we saw, and postulate on what we should expect for '21-22. You can reach us all at SpecialEd.Law
A transcript of this episode can be found here shortly after the episode is published: https://specialed.law/end-of-year-wrap-up/
- Visa fler
